Suggestion Want option to permanently disable ELDA (Emergency Lane Departure Avoidance)

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HCD3

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#23
Yep - understand. They could make it optional. When they get to FSD or robo taxi, then they can force it on at all times.
I’d be fine with that so long as ELDA was activated only if on NOA. It goes off now whether or not I’m on Autopilot.
 

msjulie

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#24
I understand the desire to do this, but I have a feeling if Elon and Tesla truly believe this will help to save a wreck or a life, turning it off isn't going to happen.
The thing is, I don't believe that legally they can force this feature on us - if so, there would be no option to disable at all.. so while I agree with the belief Tesla thinks this is the right thing to do (and the annoying side stepping with temp off switch) the point remains that they are forcing a feature of folks that may not want it and the only current (real) recourse is to forego an update. Then in effect you are prevented from any other bug fix and in my case "threatened" with existing network services ceasing to function at sometime. Before anyone yells at me about the word 'threatened' , that was the term the attorney I contacted used when I explained the consumer service reply to my stating I would not update my car. Take that as you will.

Folks may disagree with this position and that is certainly anyone's right. But forcing a car I own to have software added that lets someone else decide how it should drive is a slippery slope and a scary precedent in my book and completely different from the existence of the optional and fully user-controllable AP and FSD packages.
 

Feathermerchant

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#25
Being able to permanently disable any safety feature is also a slippery slope. ABS? Stability control? Lane departure warning? Collision warning? Those are all software (some federally mandated) someone else thought was a good idea.
So what if you permanently disable a safety feature and someone else gets in the car?
 

msjulie

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#26
Being able to permanently disable any safety feature is also a slippery slope. ABS? Stability control? Lane departure warning? Collision warning? Those are all software (some federally mandated) someone else thought was a good idea.
So what if you permanently disable a safety feature and someone else gets in the car?
I disagree that being able to disable an active feature where the car takes control w/o warning is equal to disabling passive features like ABS, etc. ABS is mandated, AEB is not nor is EDLA nor side collision warning - which is enabled in my car and has alerted me exactly 0 times in cases where are far lower tech Audi would have had it's mirror-placed warning lights illuminated.

Who is getting into my car and understanding how EDLA may behave? It is a trivial argument to say that is currently more dangerous than not especially at this point in time with the false positives. Any time a car reacts in an unexpected way, it is arguably a far more dangerous situation and a car that steers against a driver is right there with the unsafe surprise potential

It is incredibly easy to have these settings be based on user profile for those that might want that control.

When/if FSD ever achieves Elon's vision, then all those that don't want to take driving serious will be able to sit back and let the car drive.

None of the above rational justifies forcing a feature on an existing owner against their will.
 
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HCD3

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#27
I disagree that being able to disable an active feature where the car takes control w/o warning is equal to disabling passive features like ABS, etc. ABS is mandated, AEB is not nor is EDLA nor side collision warning - which is enabled in my car and has alerted me exactly 0 times in cases where are far lower tech Audi would have had it's mirror-placed warning lights illuminated.

Who is getting into my car and understanding how EDLA may behave? It is a trivial argument to say that is currently more dangerous than not especially at this point in time with the false positives. Any time a car reacts in an unexpected way, it is arguably a far more dangerous situation and a car that steers against a driver is right there with the unsafe surprise potential

It is incredibly easy to have these settings be based on user profile for those that might want that control.

When/if FSD ever achieves Elon's vision, then all those that don't want to take driving serious will be able to sit back and let the car drive.

None of the above rational justifies forcing a feature on an existing owner against their will.
As usual msjulie right on.
 

Feathermerchant

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#28
Given your logic, we should be able to remove the seat belts, shatterproof glass, dual brake systems, ABS etc from our cars if we think they do not provide a benefit. After all 'others' decided to make them mandatory and yet 'others' decided to make use of them compulsory.
 

HCD3

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#29
Given your logic, we should be able to remove the seat belts, shatterproof glass, dual brake systems, ABS etc from our cars if we think they do not provide a benefit. After all 'others' decided to make them mandatory and yet 'others' decided to make use of them compulsory.
Oh come on man. Specious argument.
 

msjulie

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#30
Given your logic, we should be able to remove the seat belts, shatterproof glass, dual brake systems, ABS etc from our cars if we think they do not provide a benefit. After all 'others' decided to make them mandatory and yet 'others' decided to make use of them compulsory.
Show me how any of the above take ACTIVE control of your vehicle ...
 

Feathermerchant

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#31
Nope. Do you think seat belts were accepted from day one? Do you think they were required to be in cars day one? Do you think they were compulsory day one? No to all the above.
It was quite a fight. My grandfather removed ALL seat belts from his cars with his pocket knife. Some people still do not wear them.
How long has it taken us to have strict drinking and driving/riding laws?
You could make a very logical case for prohibition even today. But alas we are not very good at statistics. We cannot even agree on vaccinations.
Just because someone does not think it is a good idea does not mean it is or isn't a good idea. You need to look at the statistics.
 

msjulie

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#32
My concern relates to active vs passive (everything in your list) features. And not having the car take control unexpectedly from the driver...
 

DocScott

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#33
I think Tesla sees it as a statistics/insurance issue. They desperately want to be able to demonstrate that Teslas are much safer than other vehicles. If they think ELDA enhances safety, they may try to force it on everyone, all the time. (Of course, they could also limit the speed of all Teslas to, say, the speed limit plus 10 mph, but they don't do that. They pick their shots.)

So why do they let us turn it off for a single drive? My guess is they're thinking about oddball cases like filming on a closed course, or using it on a track, etc..

It's not the only feature that resets to "on" each trip: that's how traction control works, right? You can turn on slip start (which is really turning off traction control) to get unstuck from mud or snow. But the next trip, it will be back to the slip start off (= traction control on).
 

Feathermerchant

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#34
Tesla also wants to use Full Self Driving. So these features will become required.

As far as features that take control of the car - Automatic braking.
There is at least one video of a Tesla swerving to miss a vehicle coming into its lane and therefore avoiding an accident.
 

msjulie

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#35
It's great so many people have positive experiences with Tesla's AP and safety software. Some don't.

I am always amazed at how many people say AP reduces their stress level when driving. More power to you! For me, the phantom braking and other unexpected behaviors are nothing but never wracking and I have family that prefers I not use those features when they are in the car as the unpredictability vs a human driver makes them uncomfortable.

I wonder if the stats about safety are really accurate with regard to AP, I don't have the details so I can't say. But if I were to base it on the mistakes my car has made where I drive it, the results wouldn't lean me in that direction

I'm not telling anyone that you can't have the features, I'm just requesting Tesla respect those that may prefer not to have so many nannies, especially less than near-perfect ones to boot
 

HCD3

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#36
Nope. Do you think seat belts were accepted from day one? Do you think they were required to be in cars day one? Do you think they were compulsory day one? No to all the above.
It was quite a fight. My grandfather removed ALL seat belts from his cars with his pocket knife. Some people still do not wear them.
How long has it taken us to have strict drinking and driving/riding laws?
You could make a very logical case for prohibition even today. But alas we are not very good at statistics. We cannot even agree on vaccinations.
Just because someone does not think it is a good idea does not mean it is or isn't a good idea. You need to look at the statistics.
I find seatbelts FAR less intrusive than ELDA warnings.
 

DocScott

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#37
I find seatbelts FAR less intrusive than ELDA warnings.
That's probably because you're used to them. Seatbelts are literally "always on" and you can always feel the restraint (whether or not you consciously register it).

Incidentally, I tend to your view on ELDA for now: at its current state of development, there should be an option to turn it off and have it stay off. But I think that argument should be based on the current state of ELDA, not on some philosophical argument about active vs. passive and driver choice. For example, anti-lock brakes are an active safety system, which takes some control away from the driver. Do you really insist on the ability to disable anti-lock brakes?
 

msjulie

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#38
Incidentally, I tend to your view on ELDA for now: at its current state of development, there should be an option to turn it off and have it stay off. But I think that argument should be based on the current state of ELDA, not on some philosophical argument about active vs. passive and driver choice. For example, anti-lock brakes are an active safety system, which takes some control away from the driver. Do you really insist on the ability to disable anti-lock brakes?

I'll beat the dead horse.

There is a world of difference between passive and active safety .. ABS will never trigger 'just because', you have to have your foot on the brake first.

I don't see the problem, really, if all these features do work w/o issues, that they all will be part of a self driving mode. And if they work like the dreams suggest, then they will be on most of the time for most people.

That doesn't mean there will never will be valid reasons to turn them all off.
 

msjulie

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#40
and they give you the option. Just because you don't agree with the implementation (inconvenience) of how it is turned off, doesn't negate that they provided it to you.
It is my belief that they were required to provide an out (legally) and you're right, I think they made it unnecessarily onerous because they could. Doesn't make it good or right.