V9 Features: Nav on Autopilot

  • Our merch store is back! Check out our line of quality apparel and accessories featuring the TOO logo. Let us know if you'd like something specific you don't see 👍https://teespring.com/stores/tesla-owners-online-store
  • It's OK to discuss software issues here but please report bugs to Tesla directly at servicehelpna@teslamotors.com if you want things fixed.

SoFlaModel3

@Teslatunity
Moderator
TOO Supporting Member
Joined
Apr 15, 2017
Messages
9,761
Location
Florida
Tesla Owner
Model 3
Country
Country
I recently upgraded to (new)AP/FSD, and during my commute home this evening on the interstate I was using Navigate on Autopilot. It was raining steadily, so I was also playing with the windshield wiper settings. Here's something I stumbled on, wonder if anyone else has experienced it?

I initially had my wipers on manual setting "3", since the auto setting doesn't move the wipers fast enough for me. As I entered the interstate and attempted to engage NoA, I got a message "Weather may limit use of NoA", or something like that. So I drove along with only TACC and Lane Keeping. Fine. After a while I decided to try the windshield wipers on "Auto". Several seconds later NoA engaged. Great. But I didn't like the visibility, so a minute or two later, I switched the wipers back to setting "3". A couple seconds later, NoA disengaged due to the weather. No change in the rain throughout this whole thing. "Interesting" I thought. Wipers back to Auto, NoA re-engaged. Wipers back to "3", NoA disengaged. I kept going back and forth with the windshield wiper control several times and kept getting the same result, so I'm pretty sure they were directly related to each other. The car seemed to not like NoA when the windshield was being kept clearer by the manual wiper setting.

I'm running on Firmware 2019.5.15, but it may not be unique to that firmware.
This was just coincidence. I only use the auto wipers and in bad weather NOA will disengage.
 

Travelwolf

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jun 8, 2016
Messages
211
Location
Missouri
Tesla Owner
Model 3
Country
Country
mine is not an issue of it disengaging/re-engaging etc- the OPTION to turn it on at all is not even there, there is no button. i looked to make sure it was on in the settings and it was. it remained missing in my navigation though for the rest of the day. did this to me a few days randomly, on roads that it has worked on in the past for the same routes. it's just weird.
 

Nautilus

Well-Known Member
TOO Supporting Member
Joined
Oct 10, 2018
Messages
337
Location
Indiana
Tesla Owner
Model 3
Country
Country
This was just coincidence. I only use the auto wipers and in bad weather NOA will disengage.
That's what I thought at first. And I expect you're right under certain bad weather conditions. In this case, I think the rain was "just right", such that the NoA kept engaging/disengaging within 5 seconds of my toggling the wiper setting. I was able to repeat it through about 10 cycles over a 15 mile stretch of interstate. Once or twice - yeah, coincidence. This many times, and like clockwork, I'm thinking otherwise. I'll try to replicate the next time there is steady rain.

@Travelwolf (great username), the NoA button on the navigation screen remained "Blue" (on) throughout this "experiment", just like I can turn it "on" as I'm leaving my driveway, but NoA is not actually engaged until a couple miles later when I get on the interstate.
 
Last edited:

njkode

Active Member
Joined
Jul 6, 2018
Messages
120
Location
Los Angeles
Tesla Owner
Model 3
Country
Country
Does Nav on autopilot annoy anyone else? sorry if it has been talked about did not feel like reading 13 pages. lol

For me, NOA gets way too annoying for the lane changes it is promoting. Even when I tell it to delay it comes back in 2 seconds. Many times it is telling me to change lanes into the carpool lane. Which I can not always do, then if I am in the carpool lane that has an exit it is still looking for me to get out of the carpool lane to use the standard exit. I think there is a lot of work that can be done with it. When I was on a road trip meaning far outside city limits it worked well but for in the cities it just seems to be lacking.
 

MelindaV

☰ > 3
Moderator
Joined
Apr 2, 2016
Messages
9,367
Location
Vancouver, WA
Tesla Owner
Model 3
Country
Country
Does Nav on autopilot annoy anyone else? sorry if it has been talked about did not feel like reading 13 pages. lol

For me, NOA gets way too annoying for the lane changes it is promoting. Even when I tell it to delay it comes back in 2 seconds. Many times it is telling me to change lanes into the carpool lane. Which I can not always do, then if I am in the carpool lane that has an exit it is still looking for me to get out of the carpool lane to use the standard exit. I think there is a lot of work that can be done with it. When I was on a road trip meaning far outside city limits it worked well but for in the cities it just seems to be lacking.
what do you have it set to?
 

Nautilus

Well-Known Member
TOO Supporting Member
Joined
Oct 10, 2018
Messages
337
Location
Indiana
Tesla Owner
Model 3
Country
Country
I recently upgraded to (new)AP/FSD, and during my commute home this evening on the interstate I was using Navigate on Autopilot. It was raining steadily, so I was also playing with the windshield wiper settings. Here's something I stumbled on, wonder if anyone else has experienced it?

I initially had my wipers on manual setting "3", since the auto setting doesn't move the wipers fast enough for me. As I entered the interstate and attempted to engage NoA, I got a message "Weather may limit use of NoA", or something like that. So I drove along with only TACC and Lane Keeping. Fine. After a while I decided to try the windshield wipers on "Auto". Several seconds later NoA engaged. Great. But I didn't like the visibility, so a minute or two later, I switched the wipers back to setting "3". A couple seconds later, NoA disengaged due to the weather. No change in the rain throughout this whole thing. "Interesting" I thought. Wipers back to Auto, NoA re-engaged. Wipers back to "3", NoA disengaged. I kept going back and forth with the windshield wiper control several times and kept getting the same result, so I'm pretty sure they were directly related to each other. The car seemed to not like NoA when the windshield was being kept clearer by the manual wiper setting.

I'm running on Firmware 2019.5.15, but it may not be unique to that firmware.
I'll try to replicate the next time there is steady rain.
Steady rain on my commute into work this morning. Played with the NoA and Windshield wiper settings and got the same result as above. I'm still running on 2019.5.15.
 
Joined
Nov 3, 2018
Messages
14
Location
Indiana
Country
Country
I've had NOA speed based lane changes set to disabled for a long time. I can't remember what it was set to after the update? What is the default setting?

Disabled
Mild
Average
Mad Max

Thanks?
 

Frully

Top-Contributor
Joined
Aug 30, 2018
Messages
758
Location
Calgary, AB. Canada
Tesla Owner
Model 3
Country
Country
I believe the default was average...

I have mine set to mad max but should turn it down because it constantly wants me to pass 1/2 mile from my exit while I'm in the exit lane...easily not enough time to pass and get back over (legally).
 

airj1012

Active Member
Joined
Jan 28, 2019
Messages
133
Location
North Carolina
Tesla Owner
Model 3
Country
Country
"Today, we’re beginning to roll out our latest version of Navigate on Autopilot for a more seamless active guidance experience. In this new version, drivers will now have the option to use Navigate on Autopilot without having to confirm lane changes via the turn stalk. "

I'm not sure they've officially released this version yet. The latest prominent version is 2019.8.4, which is believed to be bug fixes for 2019.8.3. Anyone know anything different?

https://www.tesla.com/blog/introducing-more-seamless-navigate-autopilot
 

NOGA$4ME

Top-Contributor
Joined
Sep 30, 2016
Messages
650
Location
Durham, NC
Tesla Owner
Model 3
Country
Country
I would give it a little time to roll out. "Today" probably does mean today in a press release like this (and not "Elon time" for in the next few weeks), but it probably does mean that it will probably start rolling out starting tonight and you may not see the first indications on TeslaFi until tomorrow morning.
 

airj1012

Active Member
Joined
Jan 28, 2019
Messages
133
Location
North Carolina
Tesla Owner
Model 3
Country
Country
I'm not a big fan of them advertising the releases and then actually releasing it. Personally I think it should be the other way around. They created so much buzz about Sentry Mode and Dog Mode on their blog, official Instragram and YouTube channels, and it took weeks for the first wide spread roll out. Wish they'd time it up a bit better.
 

Unplugged

Active Member
TOO Supporting Member
Joined
Apr 4, 2016
Messages
151
Location
Irvine, California
Tesla Owner
Model 3
Country
Country
My concern about Navigate on Autopilot is that the Tesla navigation routing is poor, to say the least. In the LA Metro area, including Orange County, I can't really trust the Tesla navigation to properly route me in the quickest time. Quite literally, Tesla chooses a route different than my Waze navigation whenever there is a choice of routes. And every time, the Tesla nav is routing me in a longer, less intuitive route. Some specific examples:

I travel often from Irvine to Murrieta, CA. I choose to take the 91 Expressway Toll Lanes. Waze has adopted to my choice when many months ago it would insist on routing me via the 241 toll road. Waze figured out that I ignore the 241 toll road because it costs money, and the 91 Toll Lanes are free for EVs. (Or, most likely, Waze just figured that the 2 minutes saved wasn't worth the effort.) In any case, even in the old days, Waze would understand at the very first turn that I wanted to use the 405 freeway when I turned toward the "wrong" direction. Waze would immediately recalculate using the 91 Toll Lanes.

But not so much Tesla nav. I have never experienced a more obstinate, stubborn computer program. Tesla nav would insist that I immediately turn around and proceed on the 241 toll road. At every exit on the 405, Tesla would demand that I exit and head toward the toll road, traffic be damned. ("Confirm lane change! Confirm lane change!) Tesla nav would keep this up for eight exits that I pass going toward the 91 Toll Lanes. Finally, Tesla would give up, once I neared the 91 Fwy. But it gets worse.

Once on the 91 Toll Lanes, Tesla nav has no concept that they are toll lanes separated from traffic by plastic posts. This explains why Tesla nav ignores the different traffic data from the Toll Lanes versus the regular traffic lanes. But the real problem is that the traffic is often really bad on the regular lanes, while it is going much faster on the Toll Lanes. Tesla nav has insisted at times that I confirm the lane change while on the Toll Lanes. This, of course, would result in the Model 3 taking out a row of plastic posts and damaging the car significantly. It still wants me to travel on surface streets even though I am committed to the Toll Lanes.

Other, less damaging situations constantly appear. Tesla nav insists when traveling from Irvine to Pasadena that I take a wholly different route than the one suggested by Waze. And when I take a different route Tesla nav is so incensed that it refuses to follow the new route and constantly insists that I turn the damn car around and go its way. It's like a petulant child. Rather than submitting to the new route, Tesla nav just won't give up.

So "Navigate on Autopilot" without confirmation seems like a program destined to fail. Sure, it's probably fine in areas where there are but a few exits and interchanges. But I wonder about all these "corner cases" where someone wants the convenience of Nav on AP but ignores the suggestions. I think my Tesla has a little more Hal in it than I want.
 

NOGA$4ME

Top-Contributor
Joined
Sep 30, 2016
Messages
650
Location
Durham, NC
Tesla Owner
Model 3
Country
Country
So "Navigate on Autopilot" without confirmation seems like a program destined to fail. Sure, it's probably fine in areas where there are but a few exits and interchanges. But I wonder about all these "corner cases" where someone wants the convenience of Nav on AP but ignores the suggestions. I think my Tesla has a little more Hal in it than I want.
Your experience is certainly a valid point. Aside from the specific cases where definitely wants to navigate into pylons and such though, I think a "program destined to fail" might be a bit extreme.

I use autopilot when I go to work in the morning. During the morning (and afternoon) commute, like you, I usually let Waze pick my route and don't really trust the car. It doesn't really pick the most optimal route. So in those cases, I would not use "Navigate on Autopilot", I would just use "Autopilot" and do lane changes myself (temporarily disengaging when taking exits, which is not a big deal because I've found that autopilot on ramps is a bit inconsistent speed-wise for my taste).

But if I'm on a trip, or on a known stretch where I know that NoA works well, then sure, I'll use it then, and I probably won't care as much (or even know) whether it's taking the absolute optimum route.

It's basically a choice I'm making to let the car make its own decisions and I will live with them, versus me wanting more control. Fortunately there is a button I can hit to switch back and forth between the two.
 

nonStopSwagger

Well-Known Member
Joined
May 7, 2018
Messages
217
Location
NH
Tesla Owner
Model 3
Country
Country
From reading the details, it sounds like they have moved NOA lane changes from
  • Old behavior - you clicking the control stalks on the column to confirm a change
  • New behavior - you actively torqueing the wheel. Even if you told autopilot 5 seconds ago with a torque "I'm here", NOA won't make that new lane change it wants to do RIGHT NOW, unless you first torque the wheel again.
So, still needs a "confirm" of sorts, but instead of hitting the indicator, you turn the wheel. Not really doing it all by itself.

Until they remove the nags, they should stop calling these driver aids "Full Self Driving". Its still looking for input. Maybe PSD instead?
 
Last edited:
Joined
Dec 5, 2018
Messages
11
Location
San Francisco, CA
Tesla Owner
Model 3
Country
Country
From reading the details, it sounds like they have moved NOA lane changes from
  • Old behavior - you clicking the control stalks on the column to confirm a change
  • New behavior - you actively torqueing the wheel. Even if you told autopilot 5 seconds ago with a torque "I'm here", NOA won't make that new lane change it wants to do RIGHT NOW, unless you first torque the wheel again.
So, still needs a "confirm" of sorts, but instead of hitting the indicator, you turn the wheel. Not really doing it all by itself.

Until they remove the nags, they should stop calling these driver aids "Full Self Driving". Its still looking for input. Maybe PSD instead?
I mean, you don’t have to torque the wheel or turn it, it just needs to know you’re there.

From what I know about machine learning, the feature on release will be far from perfect, but good enough, and will improve as the systems receive more driving data. While it’s going to work 95% of the time, it’s the 5% - the edge cases that are figured out over time - that will require drivers to keep their hands on the steering wheel. The nag is necessary, because overrides are still necessary.

Eventually, they’ll activate the inactive interior camera located above the rear view mirror so that there’s less grippy nagging, but the technology isn’t at that point yet.
 

nonStopSwagger

Well-Known Member
Joined
May 7, 2018
Messages
217
Location
NH
Tesla Owner
Model 3
Country
Country
I mean, you don’t have to torque the wheel or turn it, it just needs to know you’re there.

From what I know about machine learning, the feature on release will be far from perfect, but good enough, and will improve as the systems receive more driving data. While it’s going to work 95% of the time, it’s the 5% - the edge cases that are figured out over time - that will require drivers to keep their hands on the steering wheel. The nag is necessary, because overrides are still necessary.

Eventually, they’ll activate the inactive interior camera located above the rear view mirror so that there’s less grippy nagging, but the technology isn’t at that point yet.
It doesn't actually switch lanes without confirmation. Requires a little bit of torque for it to move over. If you never provide that torque it cancels the change.

So for example AP gives you the blue screen nag, you torque and it's happy for 45 more seconds. Then NOA wants to change lanes 5 seconds after your last torque, needs torque again.
 

Unplugged

Active Member
TOO Supporting Member
Joined
Apr 4, 2016
Messages
151
Location
Irvine, California
Tesla Owner
Model 3
Country
Country
Your experience is certainly a valid point. Aside from the specific cases where definitely wants to navigate into pylons and such though, I think a "program destined to fail" might be a bit extreme.

I use autopilot when I go to work in the morning. During the morning (and afternoon) commute, like you, I usually let Waze pick my route and don't really trust the car. It doesn't really pick the most optimal route. So in those cases, I would not use "Navigate on Autopilot", I would just use "Autopilot" and do lane changes myself (temporarily disengaging when taking exits, which is not a big deal because I've found that autopilot on ramps is a bit inconsistent speed-wise for my taste).

But if I'm on a trip, or on a known stretch where I know that NoA works well, then sure, I'll use it then, and I probably won't care as much (or even know) whether it's taking the absolute optimum route.

It's basically a choice I'm making to let the car make its own decisions and I will live with them, versus me wanting more control. Fortunately there is a button I can hit to switch back and forth between the two.
Yes, I was a bit hyperbolic in saying NOAP was "destined to fail." My disappointment at the Tesla nav is primarily what's irritating me. But there are things that concern me, especially in the latest update 2019.8.3. I have no doubt that these things will be ironed out by Tesla. But I think it's a little early to expect navigate on Autopilot to work seamlessly.

Recently, for instance, I found AP to be driving on or over the center line. I'm sure it will improve, but at this point, I have to be more engaged with driving to the point that I sometimes feel like a test pilot instead of an autopilot. For example:
20190330_175749.jpg
 

NOGA$4ME

Top-Contributor
Joined
Sep 30, 2016
Messages
650
Location
Durham, NC
Tesla Owner
Model 3
Country
Country
It doesn't actually switch lanes without confirmation. Requires a little bit of torque for it to move over. If you never provide that torque it cancels the change.

So for example AP gives you the blue screen nag, you torque and it's happy for 45 more seconds. Then NOA wants to change lanes 5 seconds after your last torque, needs torque again.
I guess I normally drive with a bit of constant torque on the wheel, so there's never actually a "confirmation". But that's just me I guess. If your method of using autopilot is to sit without your hands on the wheel and then wait for the nag and give the wheel a nudge, I guess you could interpret that as a "confirmation".

I do know that they talk about FSD, but I don't think they are referring to it as Full Self Driving at this point. Still just autopilot (or really, Navigate on Autopilot). I guess the question is, what would you prefer? To wait until the system is 100% perfected and fully autonomous, or for them to release it in stages and undergo incremental improvements? I guess you have a choice there as well. If you prefer, you can simply wait and not pay for FSD until it gets to level 5 and just not worry about the fact that it's not fully autonomous yet.