V9 Feature: Lane Departure Avoidance (and Emergency LDA)

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Bokonon

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I thought Lane Departure would be a welcome feature actually, but TWICE in the past three days on local roads it kinda scared the living crap out of me. :eek:
Both times I was purposely, with hand input on the wheel gradually shifting to the shoulder to pass a vehicle stopped in the lane/turning.
My car beeped, vibrated the wheel and jerked me back into the lane!
The same thing just happened to me.

The scenario was: local road, speed limit 30 mph, two lanes divided by a double-yellow line, ~3-foot shoulder on either side demarcated by a solid white line. A van heading in the opposite direction had just pulled over into the shoulder, and a long train of cars behind it had begun snaking around it, crossing over into our lane. In response, the cars in our lane drifted into the shoulder on our side so that traffic could continue to flow in both directions.

Well, ELDA didn't like any of this -- as I crossed over the shoulder line (with some torque on the wheel, I might add), the wheel vibrated and began to turn back toward the center of the lane (i.e. toward a possible collision :oops: ). The car also sounded the usual collision-warning alarm (beep-beep-beep-beep-beep!) and a message in red text appeared on the display, to the effect of, "Steering applied to ensure your safety." While it wasn't difficult to override ELDA's corrective torque, it did seem like I needed to apply more force than I've needed to override normal LDA.

Since this was the first time I've experienced ELDA, I'm a little curious as to what actually triggered it. I've tried purposefully drifting over the shoulder line before on this specific road (though not in the exact same location), and I've had normal LDA kick in, but never ELDA. Part me of wonders whether the oncoming cars crossing over the center-line into our lane were actually this trigger, even though I was "drifting" away from them. If the logic underlying ELDA is literally the boolean result of the two conditions specified in the release notes ("car has departed its lane and a collision is detected" -- regardless of where the colliding object might be located) then that could be the case... but at this point, it's anybody's guess.

IMO this feature should only step in if NO input is detected for X amount of time before the event as in a true drifting incident. There are many valid reasons to move out of the lane such as to avoid potholes, turing traffic or a wandering oncoming vehicle and the last thing you need is the car second guessing you.
+1. The parameters that activate ELDA definitely need some further tuning.
 

sduck

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The same thing just happened to me.

The scenario was: local road, speed limit 30 mph, two lanes divided by a double-yellow line, ~3-foot shoulder on either side demarcated by a solid white line. A van heading in the opposite direction had just pulled over into the shoulder, and a long train of cars behind it had begun snaking around it, crossing over into our lane. In response, the cars in our lane drifted into the shoulder on our side so that traffic could continue to flow in both directions.

Well, ELDA didn't like any of this -- as I crossed over the shoulder line (with some torque on the wheel, I might add), the wheel vibrated and began to turn back toward the center of the lane (i.e. toward a possible collision :oops: ). The car also sounded the usual collision-warning alarm (beep-beep-beep-beep-beep!) and a message in red text appeared on the display, to the effect of, "Steering applied to ensure your safety." While it wasn't difficult to override ELDA's corrective torque, it did seem like I needed to apply more force than I've needed to override normal LDA.

Since this was the first time I've experienced ELDA, I'm a little curious as to what actually triggered it. I've tried purposefully drifting over the shoulder line before on this specific road (though not in the exact same location), and I've had normal LDA kick in, but never ELDA. Part me of wonders whether the oncoming cars crossing over the center-line into our lane were actually this trigger, even though I was "drifting" away from them. If the logic underlying ELDA is literally the boolean result of the two conditions specified in the release notes ("car has departed its lane and a collision is detected" -- regardless of where the colliding object might be located) then that could be the case... but at this point, it's anybody's guess.



+1. The parameters that activate ELDA definitely need some further tuning.
Are you sure it was ELDA, and you don't have LDA turned on also?
 

sduck

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My settings are the same as yours. Namely:
  1. Lane Departure Avoidance set to "off"
  2. Emergency Lane Departure Avoidance set to "on" (but only because it resets itself to "on" for each drive, and I forget to turn it back off).
Yes, I'm trying to avoid a pothole. Let me attempt to describe what's happening in more detail.
  • If I make sure that I maintain some torque on the steering wheel, then the car is happy to cross over the solid white line with no warning.
  • However, if I nudge the car to the right, so that it is now slowly drifting over to the right side of the lane (to avoid the pothole), and I do not place torque on the steering wheel during this drifting stage, then ELDA fires (makes emergency sound and steers car back into lane). Worse, when this starts happening, I have to actively fight the car to keep it going around the pothole - adding torque to the steering wheel after it has started firing does not cause it to stop firing. It's not very strong, so I can win that fight, but the sound is loud and annoying and combined with the shaking caused by me and the car fighting for control of steering, and my passengers really start to wonder what the hell is going on.
Ah, I see. I still find it odd that I haven't been able to get it to trigger (ELDA) even once in the last 4 days since i turned off LDA. And I've tried several times now to get it to trigger (on closed roads with professional drivers, don't try this at home kids) with no luck. I wonder if the steering wheel settings make a difference - i have mine set for sport, which makes it fairly sensitive I think. Maybe my car is just better. :tonguewink:

My experience with LDA was this - at first "this is cool! it's going to save lives!" a day later "gah that was annoying, but it's still a great idea!" two days later "this completely sucks I'm turning it off and ripping off the switch".
 
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Unless it's actively and repeatedly putting me in a dangerous situation I'm leaving all the safety features on. Why? Because 99.9% of the time the computer is doing the right thing and doing it better than I can.

I've had both systems fire so far (appropriately). Once LDA fired because I didn't use my signal and I should have. Once ELDA fired because I thought I was in autopilot and I wasn't paying as much attention (obviously) as I should have on a road with no shoulder. Both times the correction was sufficient (I wasn't jerked anywhere) and appropriate and I deserved having the screen chastise me. I've learned to put on my blinkers in some weird situations, mostly in quick flash mode, (like when passing bicyclists on narrow roads) to ensure that I was telling the computer I knew what I was doing to work around the quirks as the tech gets better.

I'll take the quirks, and that's what most of the annoying behaviors are - quicks, over disabling an active safety feature that might save a life or a crash any day. I can't count the number of bicyclist or motorcycle or lane crossing collisions I've read about because someone lost attention for a brief moment. We had one just this weekend where a car crossed the center lane and a local college student was killed. No impairment, just a break in attention. Learn to live with the .1% quirks because the payoff on leaving it enabled is worth it.
 

JWardell

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Yikes. It's getting crazy reading this confusion going around in circles. If anything the bigger mistake here is Tesla renaming Collision Avoidance to almost the same name as the feature above it.
Maybe they will change it back to avoid the confusion.
I'm confident it will get smarter over time, hopefully you will forget you had these issues in a few months and before you know it the car is avoid the potholes on its own.
 

evannole

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To those of you concerned about the car needlessly or dangerously correcting you when passing parked cars: have you actually experienced this, or are you theorizing? I deliberately crossed a double solid yellow line on a local street in my neighborhood just before arriving home this evening in order to pass two (illegally) parked cars. The system didn't do anything. No correction, no noise, no vibration of the wheel. Nothing. I was traveling at 30 mph, so above the 25 mph threshold for the functioning of this feature.

So far I have yet to experience this feature's doing anything that I would consider undesirable. I do spend most of my time on interstates and city streets, so maybe I would feel differently if I traveled a lot of back roads, but so far I like this feature pretty well.
 

Long Ranger

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So far I have yet to experience this feature's doing anything that I would consider undesirable. I do spend most of my time on interstates and city streets, so maybe I would feel differently if I traveled a lot of back roads, but so far I like this feature pretty well.
I've had a similar positive experience after a week with both LDA and ELDA enabled. Pretty impressed with it so far. For me it generally triggers when it should and not when it shouldn't. I also primarily drive on city streets and interstates.

I've crossed the center line to pass illegally parked cars, driving over 25mph, no turn signal, with no LDA trigger. I suspect I applied enough steering torque. I've passed on the shoulder without triggering the feature, because I was traveling under 25mph.

It sounds like most of the complaints are when passing on the shoulder at speeds above 25mph. That's not something I do often, but I can see where that's a bigger issue on rural roads.
 

Lgkahn

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find a place where lane splits going around a corner, head for the right lane, turn or not car thinks you are heading off the road when you are really heading for the right lane even with signal or torque.. tries to steer you back to the other lane.
 

MelindaV

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A day or so ago I turned LDA from warn to off as part of @garsh's experiment...

When exiting the freeway tonight, and turning onto my local street, much the same as every other time I've taken this exit in the last 7+ years, the ELDA blared at me (did not notice any steering corrections).
I didn't cross the lane line... the car I was following was actually a full tire width over the line, and when it sounded, I had actually already moved more centered in the lane. it sounded at the 13 Second mark in the video below.

 

Bokonon

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I didn't cross the lane line... the car I was following was actually a full tire width over the line, and when it sounded, I had actually already moved more centered in the lane. it sounded at the 13 Second mark in the video below.
(Gah, I didn't think to save the dashcam video of my incident earlier today... :rolleyes:)

So the interesting thing about your video... If you watch the right repeater cam (which is what I believe (E)LDA is using here to determine whether you're on the road), around the 0:13 mark is where the shoulder line goes from solid to dashed.

I'm wondering whether this change somehow made the car think (perhaps for only a fraction of a second) that you were to the right of the rightmost lane, and that ELDA was warranted, so the alarm sounded. But then, either the ELDA conditions were too transient to apply corrective action, OR the car looked at both repeater cams and determined from the lane lines on either side that no corrective action was necessary.
 

Long Ranger

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So the interesting thing about your video... If you watch the right repeater cam (which is what I believe (E)LDA is using here to determine whether you're on the road), around the 0:13 mark is where the shoulder line goes from solid to dashed.
Good point. Also, the right shoulder line comes in from an angle, so from about 0:09 to 0:12 the right repeater cam gives the impression that the car is drifting towards that line. It makes some sense that this plus the disappearing (dotted) line might fool it.

The curb might also factor in. In my limited testing, I've managed to get ELDA to trigger instead of LDA when I was intentionally drifting towards a curb. Not enough tests to be sure of this though.
 

garsh

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A day or so ago I turned LDA from warn to off as part of @garsh's experiment...
Likewise, I turned LDA to "warn".
It didn't make any difference. ELDA still fired.

I saved dashcam recordings when it happened this time. In this short 10-second video. I take over steering from AP at 2 seconds and steer the car towards the edge of the lane to go around the pothole. At 5 seconds, the tires hit the white lane line. ELDA emits the loud warning sound, and the car steers itself back into the lane by itself. Note that there is a nice, wide shoulder, and nothing for the car to hit, so it really is just a "lane departure avoidance", and not an "accident avoidance".

 

Scubastevo80

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I've turned off Lane Departure Avoidance for my daily commute but left Emergency on. Coming home the other day, I was on a 40 mile road with a very large shoulder. I was following a car who indicated left and slowed to a near stop. I went to pass him on the right and the car attempted to auto-correct back into the actual lane, which triggered the "crash imminent" chimes. I had to force the car back to the right to pass to avoid a rear collision.

Earlier in the day I was playing wiht the Lane Departure assist and found a few too many situations where the car was auto-correcting. I'm not noticeably steering the car, but holding the wheel light enough where I believe the car assumes I've given up control. A good example is on a sweeping right on a two-way, single lane road with a wide shoulder. I'm more likely to hug or slightly cross the rightmost/outer line to avoid oncoming cars who may ride close to the centerline.
 

scott franco

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I just got the new software update yesterday. I was turning left at a green light. Another car to the left of me was decellerating to a stop at the light.

Car starts beeping like crazy and jerks the wheel right! I look a the display, it says it automatically avoided a collision!

I'm not at all sure about the safety of this "mode". I haven't found a switch to turn it off. Anyone know?
 

Dr. J

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I just got the new software update yesterday. I was turning left at a green light. Another car to the left of me was decellerating to a stop at the light.

Car starts beeping like crazy and jerks the wheel right! I look a the display, it says it automatically avoided a collision!

I'm not at all sure about the safety of this "mode". I haven't found a switch to turn it off. Anyone know?
This is most likely the Emergency Lane Departure Avoidance warning that is driving people crazy. I am hopeful 2019.16.3 will calibrate or remove this. In meantime, pay attention and keep both hands on the wheel.

Edit: It looks like you can disable it (in 2019.16.2) but you have to do it before each drive. It won't stay off.

Edit: Also see here.
 
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Long Ranger

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ELDA emits the loud warning sound, and the car steers itself back into the lane by itself. Note that there is a nice, wide shoulder, and nothing for the car to hit, so it really is just a "lane departure avoidance", and not an "accident avoidance".
Yeah, that's really strange that it triggers the ELDA warning tones in that situation. No obstacle, and you're barely onto the shoulder at all. I wonder if the two tone color of the pavement on the shoulder is fooling the camera into thinking the lighter colored pavement is a wall. That's kinda how it looks to my eye.
 

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I see a lot of complaints of "actively" trying to avoid something (bicycles, potholes etc.) being a problem.

To me, so far it seems fairly conservative. Just did 300 miles yesterday with 16.2

Every time I've tried to "actively" test it (steered into a further left lane with no signal or towards breakdown lane), it does nothing, because it knows I'm in control.
Every time it has kicked in on it's own, it's been correct, so far (both lane departure and emergency lane)

I believe it is meant to sense lack of control (sometimes it can get that wrong like it can get anything wrong).

Not to detract this thread, and for the record I no longer use NoA (with or without confirmation). It's ok if highways are fairly quiet. But with lots of cars moving fast it's pretty bad. Tried with no confirm, confirm. I will continue to use AutoSteer though (I sure wish they would address phantom braking, that is just so bad) . But I'm finding even TACC alone can be annoying. It keeps lunging (very very mildly) to maintain distance behind the car in front. That is, it speeds up ever so slightly until it gets to close then lets up until it's too far behind. It's very subtle. My distance is set to Max (7). It might be +/- 5 ft but you can feel it, spanning 20 seconds (wild guesses on distance and time). My other ACC vehicle is smoother and don't notice it cycling at all. I assume this can be improved. I only mention this here because I wanted you know that I'm leaning "skeptical" these days but so far LDA and ELDA seem pretty good. Took many months though to "learn" NoA really isn't that good right now. Even though it's impressive what a "computer" is doing. It's still pretty bad. So I may "learn" LDA and ELDA are better off than on like some others have already done.
 

garsh

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I wonder if the two tone color of the pavement on the shoulder is fooling the camera into thinking the lighter colored pavement is a wall. That's kinda how it looks to my eye.
Oh, good insight! I hadn't considered that possibility.
Every time I've tried to "actively" test it (steered into a further left lane with no signal or towards breakdown lane)
If I try to go around the pothole the other way (into the next lane), then ELDA doesn't fire. I thought this was because it only cares about you leaving the road, but perhaps Long Ranger is correct, and it believes that the change in surface color on the shoulder makes it believe that I'm going to hit a wall.
 

MelindaV

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Oh, good insight! I hadn't considered that possibility.

If I try to go around the pothole the other way (into the next lane), then ELDA doesn't fire. I thought this was because it only cares about you leaving the road, but perhaps Long Ranger is correct, and it believes that the change in surface color on the shoulder makes it believe that I'm going to hit a wall.
but in my example, the pavement beyond the lane line is the same material, and would be surprised if I'd not swung wide around the corner (every time I've taken it) since getting the 16.2 update