V3 supercharging with a Model 3 (Speculation)

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#1
I just got my 3, it's awesome but that's for a different thread!

With the news and hints about V3, I asked when picking up the car on the weekend about it and the guy giving the presentation about Superchargers seemed pretty confident that the chemistry in the 2170 battery would be able to take advantage of the upgraded charge.

Here's hoping but I thought we could discuss it and follow it as it gets deployed this year and proven!

Thanks
 

Kizzy

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#2
Elon specifically called out 2012 chemistry as not being compatible. I think it's likely that Model 3 will be able to take some advantage of the new Supercharger version, but I don't know how fully. I suppose that depends on how future proof these chargers are.
 
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#5
Anyone have any references regarding this - will M3 be able to supercharge on V3?...will it cost extra maybe? I'm on the fence about ordering, and this would definitely help push me forward. Not sure why they wouldn't let us know as early as possible - any theories on that?
 

JWardell

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#6
As a matter of fact the Model 3 has higher charging capability than the others. The 3 will definitely be able to take advantage for SCv3, but the S and X might not. Confirmed by a birdy who worked on the onboard chargers.

Remember the 3s have battery cells with 50% higher power and can output more current...and input more current too :)
 
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#7
Thanks, JW,
That's pretty reassuring coming from a top contributor with over 1500 messages.
I asked about that at the Tesla showroom to about 4 different reps, and 3 said they didn't know (or showed they didn't know), and one didn't even know what a version 3 supercharger was LOL. I should so totally work there.
What's your theory on how much more, if any, they'll charge for SCv3? Here we're charged 0.26/kWh, so a nice discount vs gassing up an ICE, but not mind-blowing. I figure it's on par with paying $4/gallon for an ICE that gets 60mpg.
I'd still be willing to pay more for the speed in a pinch, but...well, you know...it'd be nice not to ;)
 

tivoboy

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#8
They might charge a premium for v3 supercharging but I doubt it. The price is the price and with so many cars entering the network (probably easily a doubling in the USA over the next 12 months they would be wise to make it as fast as possible. They get paid by the KW regardless of how fast it is delivered.
 

Bokonon

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#10
I'm more interested in the physical aspect. Will v3 be able to charge the vehicle without any human interaction, as part of FSD?
Me too. I get the feeling that "v3" is going to be much more about *how* Superchargers deliver (and generate!) power than *how much* power they deliver. Fred from Electrek was quick to connect the notion of a "next-generation Supercharger" with Elon's tweet about 350 kW being "a child's toy", but this connection has always struck me as a specious assumption... even more so after JB Straubel recently stated that Tesla was not looking to match Porsche's 350 kW charging spec.

I think v3 is going to center around integrated solar and energy storage (thereby allowing Superchargers to deliver renewable energy while reducing demand charges), automated charging capability (via robot snake), and improved amenities in high-demand corridors (a la Kettleman City). Maybe they will announce a modest power bump for Model 3 and newer Model S/X too (in terms of a higher mph number, rather than in kW), but if that happens, I think it will be of secondary importance.
 

John

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#12
Thanks, JW,
That's pretty reassuring coming from a top contributor with over 1500 messages.
I asked about that at the Tesla showroom to about 4 different reps, and 3 said they didn't know (or showed they didn't know), and one didn't even know what a version 3 supercharger was LOL. I should so totally work there.
What's your theory on how much more, if any, they'll charge for SCv3? Here we're charged 0.26/kWh, so a nice discount vs gassing up an ICE, but not mind-blowing. I figure it's on par with paying $4/gallon for an ICE that gets 60mpg.
I'd still be willing to pay more for the speed in a pinch, but...well, you know...it'd be nice not to ;)
It's fun to talk to the sales folks in the stores, but—and I say this with love in my heart—time has shown that you can't really put much stock in what they say. There have been instances (including ones I've heard myself in person) of very detailed and specific bits of news that turned out to be not true. "I talked directly to the product manager and he said X." Stuff like that.
 

Dangermouse

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#13
They might charge a premium for v3 supercharging but I doubt it. The price is the price and with so many cars entering the network (probably easily a doubling in the USA over the next 12 months they would be wise to make it as fast as possible. They get paid by the KW regardless of how fast it is delivered.
Hypothetically, it’ll be cheaper in my state (charged by the minute).
 

KarenRei

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#14
I assume people here have seen the new Ingineerix teardown video where he notes that the cables in the Model 3 between the charge port and the battery pack are much thicker than in the S and X? And has heard the 500A liquid cooled cable rumour out of Germany? That would BTW be about 180-ish kW on a per-vehicle basis.
 

garsh

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#17
Here's a current charging graph from 6%-98% by TonyWilliams on TMC.
Maybe 2/3 of this time? So 45 mins full charge, give or take?

Looking at this graph, it appears that charging is limited by the supercharger's ability to supply power up until about the 14 minute mark. At this point, power starts to drop because the car's battery is limiting the power.

The car's battery reaches about 40% charge (140 miles) at this point. So, even if the Model 3 supports higher supercharging power, it will only make a difference when your car is below 40% charge. Above that, charging is being limited by the car's battery.

The graph here shows about an 1% to 80% charge in about 40 minutes. Depending on what other limits the car's battery may impose on max charging power, a supercharger v3 will probably at best knock 10 minutes off of this time.

But, this still means that you could charge from 0-50% (adding 150 miles) in 5-10 minutes, which would be awesome. Now we're looking at something comparable to the time it takes to refuel a car with gasoline. If we can give the car a much larger battery (say, one capable of a 600+ mile range), then you really are comparable to refueling a gasoline car, providing ~300 miles of range in 5-10 minutes. In other words, Roadster 2.0 is going to be a no-compromises, supercar-decimating beast. :cool:
 

KarenRei

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#18
I have to mention every time with that graph, because it's not clearly labeled as such: that graph is mostly speculative. The only actual datapoints are the labeled ones. Don't read too much into exact shape :) (particularly the low-end... they've actually shaped it backwards; charge rate should be rising (not declining) to the start of the taper).

Also, there's a lot of variation between peoples' charges. Sometimes people maintain ~117kW to over 50% SoC. Median start of taper appears to be 45%-ish, so at least this charge diagram is fairly typical. On the other hand, sometimes people never even reach 117kW even at low SoCs (apparently rarely, but unfortunately, one of those cases was Bjørn Nyland, so it got widely published). Some of the outlier cases are readily explainable. Others, not so much. Someone posted a scatterplot somewhere that's much more useful, but I don't recall where I saw it.

But yes, if you're on V3, you definitely want to stay at low SoCs, if you can (e.g. sufficient supercharger density). Very well might possible to drive an hour at US highway speeds / 1,5 hours at our highway speeds, stop and charge for 5-6 minutes, and then get back on your way - so long as you're willing to arrive at 5-10% SoC. ;)
 
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tivoboy

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#19
While i don't have the detailed data points to back this up, I have charged faster than this lately at empty supercharges (the one in San Carlos) where my charging rate stayed surprisingly high for the first 23 minutes (the entire time I charged) and I started at 36 miles (don't have kw SOC) ended with 244 after disconnecting. This would lead me to think, again without any calculation, that the car was managing to charge at closer to peak charging kw for longer than this graph would indicate.

One should probably note SC capacity with any of these as the SC being limited by either vehicles or other electricity capacity constraints could be giving us uninformed data about the vehicles actual capability and programming.

What is the best way to track this offline from the vehicle for future reference? I'm about to do a 2K road trip with the car and would love to be able to capture as much data as I can.
 

John

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#20
A service like Teslafi logs everything for you.

I've never done a 6% to 100% charge, but here's one charge of just 20kWh that I did from 69% to 95% (obviously not as interesting as a low SOC run):