The ‘vampire drain’ reference place

Mike

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#1
A chap in Reddit describes his first 10 days of ownership of Model 3 (link below).

He does not plug in at home, they plug in at work and the vampire loss is quoted as 15 to 20 miles a day (with the caveat being one data point, YMMV, etc) on the weekends.

Has anyone tried not plugging the car in overnight to see if the owners manual claimed vampire loss rates are, in fact, accurate?

Thanks.

 

Kizzy

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#2
A chap in Reddit describes his first 10 days of ownership of Model 3 (link below).

He does not plug in at home, they plug in at work and the vampire loss is quoted as 15 to 20 miles a day (with the caveat being one data point, YMMV, etc) on the weekends.

Has anyone tried not plugging the car in overnight to see if the owners manual claimed vampire loss rates are, in fact, accurate?

Thanks.

I wonder if the car was put into low power mode while it was unattended. That's supposed to reduce battery usage…
 

Maevra

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#3
I wonder if the car was put into low power mode while it was unattended. That's supposed to reduce battery usage…
I may be wrong but I think low power is the mode where the car is on its last legs of battery and will start shutting down extraneous features (HVAC etc.) to try and divert all power to the battery, AKA "limp mode". I think the correct term we're looking for is deep sleep or maybe just sleep mode, but I'm not 100% sure. Calling @Brokedoc to give us the correct terminology as he owns a Model X. :)

That being said, we also do not plug in the car at night as we do not have a working outlet in the garage. In the first month of ownership I noticed overnight battery drain would be about ~1 mile per hour. Car is always garaged at night and temps were normal between 50-80 depending on the weather in the Bay Area. Those vampire drain numbers were not the norm compared to the current S and X, but seeing as early Model S cars suffered from the same huge vampire drains initially, I wasn't too worried as I guessed the BMS was still being tweaked for the 3.

Sure enough, an update was pushed a couple of weeks ago ago which lowered the battery drain considerably, to the point where vampire loss is now 1-3 miles overnight.

Also, it feels like if I fiddle with the Tesla App more the battery drains more. I notice on nights when checking up on the car at 12PM, 3AM, or whatever ungodly hour, the car would take longer to connect to the app and seems I lost maybe a mile more that night. My WAG is playing with the app or checking up on it often causes the car to wake up and interrupts its sleep cycle, so now I try not to wake it up just to check if it's still breathing. :)

My gut says this guy likely just doesn't have the latest firmware update so that's why his losses are so great.
 
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RandyS

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#4
I have a 2013 Model S, and it does have vampire load (even with everything shut down and all the energy saving settings). About 50 watts of continuous load, to be exact. Or about 1 kWh per day (which is several miles of loss). When the car is at home, it's not much of a problem because you can leave it plugged in. But when you leave the car somewhere where you may not be able to charge (airport, stored at a friends or family member's house, etc.), then it is an issue.

I bought a 7.5 amp (@ 12 volts) CTEK battery tender and plug it into the cigarette lighter. That keeps the 12 volt battery charged up and powers the 50 watts of load. Now the main traction battery doesn't have to wake up and recharge the 12 volt (losing range in the process). Just had it plugged in this way for two weeks, and the car held for the entire time at the same state of charge without all the wear and tear on the main battery, contactor, etc.....I expect this to be a similar issue with the Model 3, and I'll probably use the same solution....
 

Maevra

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#5
I have a 2013 Model S, and it does have vampire load (even with everything shut down and all the energy saving settings). About 50 watts of continuous load, to be exact. Or about 1 kWh per day (which is several miles of loss). When the car is at home, it's not much of a problem because you can leave it plugged in. But when you leave the car somewhere where you may not be able to charge (airport, stored at a friends or family member's house, etc.), then it is an issue.

I bought a 7.5 amp (@ 12 volts) CTEK battery tender and plug it into the cigarette lighter. That keeps the 12 volt battery charged up and powers the 50 watts of load. Now the main traction battery doesn't have to wake up and recharge the 12 volt (losing range in the process). Just had it plugged in this way for two weeks, and the car held for the entire time at the same state of charge without all the wear and tear on the main battery, contactor, etc.....I expect this to be a similar issue with the Model 3, and I'll probably use the same solution....
Whew lots of good info here, thanks @RandyS! Just wanna say also, thank you for all your contributions to the community and for being one of the first Tesla supporters. :)I've seen you post on other forums from way back since the start of the Model S and your info is always very helpful.
 

Russell

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#6
@RiggerJon care to comment on your experience with vampire drain? I know initially you were told to always keep it plugged in whenever possible due to this issue right?
 

Rich Nuth

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#7
I ran an experiment with my model X for about 3 days this past week (we were out of town for Thanksgiving and I left the X garaged). I started out with the battery registering 205 miles (81% charged). When I returned (I waited to check the charge until I had 2.75 days of sitting unplugged) I had 200 miles left. That amounted to about 1.8 miles per day.

Here is what I did:
1) Turned on the energy saving mode.
2) Turned off "always connected"
3) Disabled the logging I use with Teslafi.
4) Never checked the vehicle with the app until I was ready to take the final reading.

I would expect more drain in cold weather, but no where near 1 mile per hour. I would suspect that something is keeping the car from sleeping.
 

SoFlaModel3

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#8
I think (that’s all I can do until I can my own tests) that “off temperature” and climate are also a factor. I know the car has a setting for a temperature the car should not exceed while off. If in a warm climate that would impact the battery while parked without being plugged in.
 

RandyS

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#9
Whew lots of good info here, thanks @RandyS! Just wanna say also, thank you for all your contributions to the community and for being one of the first Tesla supporters. :)I've seen you post on other forums from way back since the start of the Model S and your info is always very helpful.
Thanks, glad to help...3.5 weeks to go for my car to get here :)
 

KarenRei

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#10
Possible software fix (since the rain-sensing update is taking forever to come out, and some people don't like rain sensing): change the left stalk thusly:

* Hold the wiper button and flick the left stalk up: increase wiper speed
* Hold the wiper button and flick the left stalk down: decrease wiper speed
* Wiper button pressed and released without a flick, or held for more than a second without a flick: spray and wipe, as usual.

The only downside would be that if you wanted a long spray, it wouldn't begin for 1s. I'd still prefer a rotating wiper control on the end of the stalk, but hopefully they'll A) implement autosensing wipers, and B) do so correctly. I've never really liked autowipers, though - even if they do rain well, there's other issues like mud or frost on the windshield that they're generally a big fail with. And IMHO they generally do even rain poorly.

Tesla also in general needs to have some form of context selection on the steering wheel controls; this would be another way to address the issue (choose the wiper context, then control the wipers with the left steering wheel control). I continue to believe that a great way to do context selection would be for the right steering wheel control (unused in most contexts) to be able to do "hold-click + any-of-8-directions" = any of 8 screen menu contexts. That shouldn't interfere with any current functionality - even that which uses the right steering wheel control. Also, there should be a "back" action; I think a simultaneous left and right click would work well for this.

When cruise is on, and except when in a menu context that requires the right steering wheel control, scroll up/down should control cruise speed. Obviously.

Also from the reviews: This report is the second ding we've heard for the doors being too firm to shut and not liking the centre console's piano black (these were the exact same negatives from OCDetailer). Hopefully Tesla takes note of that. Handling and performance reviews continue to be glowing, however, which is great. :) Also, nice to see that the trim alignment wasn't bad, as there's a lot of concerns about that (not from me, but from "others" :) ).
 
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#11
The other option is continuing from where it is now, with the press triggering the UI to pop up on the screen. Whenever that UI is up, repurpose some of the steering wheel scroll wheels/buttons/whatever to control wiper speed. If you don't touch them within N seconds, the UI goes away and treats it as a single wipe request. If you adjust the speed setting or push in or whatever, it then activates continuous operation and you can set the speed using the wheel or something.
 

KarenRei

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#12
If you don't touch them within N seconds, the UI goes away and treats it as a single wipe request
I don't think that's acceptable. Nobody is going to want to have to wait "N seconds" before the screen wipes at all. It needs to wipe as soon as you let go of the button. No need to change that functionality. You press the button, it wipes and the screen comes up, and then you can choose settings with the left steering wheel control, sure. But you can't just eliminate that initial wipe. And either way, the interface needs a context selector.
 

Lovesword

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#13
Also from the reviews: This report is the second ding we've heard for the doors being too firm to shut and not liking the centre console's piano black (these were the exact same negatives from OCDetailer). Hopefully Tesla takes note of that. Handling and performance reviews continue to be glowing, however, which is great. :) Also, nice to see that the trim alignment wasn't bad, as there's a lot of concerns about that (not from me, but from "others" :) ).
I wonder if the doors are partly because of the newness of the vehicle and need a sort of "break in" time. Our Model S doors are difficult to get fully shut, one time we were sitting inside and the alarm on it
I have a 2013 Model S, and it does have vampire load (even with everything shut down and all the energy saving settings). About 50 watts of continuous load, to be exact. Or about 1 kWh per day (which is several miles of loss). When the car is at home, it's not much of a problem because you can leave it plugged in. But when you leave the car somewhere where you may not be able to charge (airport, stored at a friends or family member's house, etc.), then it is an issue.

I bought a 7.5 amp (@ 12 volts) CTEK battery tender and plug it into the cigarette lighter. That keeps the 12 volt battery charged up and powers the 50 watts of load. Now the main traction battery doesn't have to wake up and recharge the 12 volt (losing range in the process). Just had it plugged in this way for two weeks, and the car held for the entire time at the same state of charge without all the wear and tear on the main battery, contactor, etc.....I expect this to be a similar issue with the Model 3, and I'll probably use the same solution....
This intrigues me to where I would like to know a little more before making the leap. With winter upon us, I know we'd like to keep every bit of battery juice for driving and not lose it to Dr. Acula. If you (or anyone) could answer a few questions regarding this, I would appreciate it.

- You simply plug into a 110 and the other end into the lighter outlet in the vehicle?
- With a maintainer, is it only keeping the 12v charged up so the cars main battery doesn't have to? Or does it charge the main ever so slightly and the main still keeps the 12v topped up?
- If it does charge the main battery, would that mean it would keep charging the vehicle in relation to the limits you've set? (Example: going out of town, set the charge at 70%)
- Would using such a device register much of a cost increase on the electrical bill? Depends on many things, I'm sure (cost of power, temperature, etc.). I can't imagine it being much, our winter cost is $.08/kWh (I believe).

Thank you in advance for your time and responses! :)
 

garsh

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#14
- You simply plug into a 110 and the other end into the lighter outlet in the vehicle?
There are versions that plug into the lighter outlet, and there are versions that you clip onto battery terminals (where you would jump-start a car). EDIT: I should mention that the kind that plug into a lighter outlet will only work on cars where that outlet is always energized - the kind that stop providing power when the car is turned off won't allow you to charge the battery. I don't know what kind a Tesla has.

Shopping search: battery tender
- With a maintainer, is it only keeping the 12v charged up so the cars main battery doesn't have to? Or does it charge the main ever so slightly and the main still keeps the 12v topped up?
You're only charging the 12v battery. The idea here is that if you keep the 12v topped off, then the car doesn't have to activate the circuitry to charge the 12v itself. This solves the "vampire drain" problem, because the electronics that contribute to vampire drain are actually powered by the 12v battery.
- Would using such a device register much of a cost increase on the electrical bill?
No. And if it keeps the car's less-efficient 12v charger from activating, it might actually save you a few pennies.

I would personally only worry about this if you often leave the car sit for several days/weeks at a time. It's not worth the cost or effort for only a few days.
 
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Lovesword

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#15
There are versions that plug into the lighter outlet, and there are versions that you clip onto battery terminals (where you would jump-start a car).
Shopping search: battery tenderYou're only charging the 12v battery. The idea here is that if you keep the 12v topped off, then the car doesn't have to activate the circuitry to charge the 12v itself. This solves the "vampire drain" problem, because the electronics that contribute to vampire drain are actually powered by the 12v battery.No. And if it keeps the car's less-efficient 12v charger from activating, it might actually save you a few pennies.

I would personally only worry about this if you plan to leave the car sit for several days/weeks at a time. It's not worth the cost or effort for only a few days.
Thank you! I only regret that I can only give you one rating... so, informative it is. :)
 

RiggerJon

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#16
@RiggerJon care to comment on your experience with vampire drain? I know initially you were told to always keep it plugged in whenever possible due to this issue right?
It seems the deep sleep function has been released recently, judging by my car’s wake up behavior. Also, it’s tough to know whether the phone key has been a factor in keeping it from deep sleep in our garage. Perhaps another owner that parks some distance from their phone keys can better evaluate.
 

Mike

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#17
Sure enough, an update was pushed a couple of weeks ago ago which lowered the battery drain considerably, to the point where vampire loss is now 1-3 miles overnight.
Maevra, thanks for some data. I'll interpret it as follows but please correct me if I am off base here:

1-3 miles overnight can be construed as 2-4 miles per 24 hour period (without playing with the app).

Let's call that 3.1 miles per 24 hours for discussion purposes. So 1% (of claimed 310 mile full capacity) range loss per day.

From the owners manual:

Screenshot_2017-11-28-10-16-51.png I'll assume you were not using energy savings mode.

Your rate of loss is 7% a week where the owners manual states "less than 3% per week with energy savings mode off".

I interpret your rate of vampire loss as being twice the figure stated in the owners manual.

Am I correct in my interpretation?

Is it reasonable for me to be not impressed with this rate of vampire loss?

Any constructive comments are most welcome.
 

RiggerJon

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#18
Your rate of loss is 7% a week where the owners manual states "less than 3% per week with energy savings mode off".

I interpret your rate of vampire loss as being twice the figure stated in the owners manual.

Am I correct in my interpretation?

Is it reasonable for me to be not impressed with this rate of vampire loss?
This is very important to me as well, but I feel that having any expectation is at this point is premature. I've without a doubt seen more vampire drain than what's shown in the above, but I've also only recently noticed the car exiting a deep sleep mode in the morning - and not all mornings. It's my perception this functionality isn't fully baked, so it's too soon to pass judgement.
 

Mike

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#19
This is very important to me as well, but I feel that having any expectation is at this point is premature. I've without a doubt seen more vampire drain than what's shown in the above, but I've also only recently noticed the car exiting a deep sleep mode in the morning - and not all mornings. It's my perception this functionality isn't fully baked, so it's too soon to pass judgement.
Thanks RiggerJon.

I hope that over the next 12 months this gets completely measured and understood.

Where I live, when all taxes, fees and surcharges are accounted for, a 1 kW drain per 24 hours amounts to 25 cents, or 90 bucks a year.

I just need to know that going into this new ev experience.
 
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#20
I don't think that's acceptable. Nobody is going to want to have to wait "N seconds" before the screen wipes at all. It needs to wipe as soon as you let go of the button. No need to change that functionality. You press the button, it wipes and the screen comes up, and then you can choose settings with the left steering wheel control, sure. But you can't just eliminate that initial wipe. And either way, the interface needs a context selector.
My suggestion wasn't that the user waits to trigger wiping. They hit the wiper stalk, the UI immediately pops up on the screen, and then any adjustment of the wiper settings using the scroll wheel / etc immediately activates continuous operation. The N seconds timeout is just for if you really meant to just use the wiper once, eventually the wiper UI automatically goes away and the steering controls resume whatever their default (or previous screen) operation was.

So you hit the wiper button, it immediately does a wipe, and while that wipe is happening you do something on the wheel controls and it keeps going - you effectively have zero wait, still two actions minimum, but at least you can do it blindly without reaching for the screen.

Not perfect, but an improvement that doesn't require any waiting to occur, or looking at the screen... unless you really only wanted to use the wipers once, and are waiting for the timeout so you can then use the steering wheel controls to adjust volume or something.