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Zippo

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I'm still on the fence over Performance with or without the $5k "Performance Plus" package. If I go with 18" Aeros I'll end up ordering new tires (~$1k), I'd like to have the calipers professionally painted red ($500-$900), and I want a spoiler ($300-$800). At that point I'm most of the way to the Performance package. I assume if I do these mods they will add little value to the vehicle, whereas the upgrade package might hold it's value over time (wishful thinking?). I guess this is my way of justifying the package :D

When I test drove a P3D the other day I was kind of hoping the 20" wheels would be a rough ride so that I'd feel better about the 18" Aeros. Surprisingly the ride was very smooth - even better than my BMW M-Sport with adaptive suspension on 19" wheels.
 

JeffC

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I'm still on the fence over Performance with or without the $5k "Performance Plus" package. If I go with 18" Aeros I'll end up ordering new tires (~$1k), I'd like to have the calipers professionally painted red ($500-$900), and I want a spoiler ($300-$800). At that point I'm most of the way to the Performance package. I assume if I do these mods they will add little value to the vehicle, whereas the upgrade package might hold it's value over time (wishful thinking?). I guess this is my way of justifying the package :D

When I test drove a P3D the other day I was kind of hoping the 20" wheels would be a rough ride so that I'd feel better about the 18" Aeros. Surprisingly the ride was very smooth - even better than my BMW M-Sport with adaptive suspension on 19" wheels.
I'm definitely still on the fence too. I'd definitely like to upgrade the wheels and tires, but would also like to have racing brakes that can fit the Aeros. (I want to use Aeros with the energy efficiency-biased tires for long road trips, and racing wheels and tires for occasional race track use.) At this point, unless the Aeros fit PUO, I may end up with a single set of racing wheels and street performance tires.

Keep in mind that you can replace the stock fires with more performance oriented ones when you wear out the stock tires. However IMO using the stock Aero tires on P3D is a bit like putting Keds sneakers on Michael Jordan and asking him to perform well on a basketball court. Tires make a very major difference, at least on a race track. Note how very differently the car drives before and after on the track test: (And of course the full changes included all of wheels, tires, brakes and suspension springs, dampers and some links. However tires are a very major part of the equation.)

The PUO Michelin Pilot Sport 4S on the 20 inch wheels are top performance pure street tires and should perform much better than the energy tires on the Aeros. Definitely recommend them for that purpose.

One thing people seem to forget is that the Aeros may ride relatively hard due to the initial high pressures used, and the energy efficiency design bias. In other words, the slightly hard ride with Aeros could be a result of trying to be more energy efficient.

Thanks so much for the driving impressions of Performance with PUO! :D Good to hear the PUO rides so well. It seems they tuned the P/PUO for some comfort. But how did it handle in (hard) turns. etc.?
 
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Zippo

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Thanks so much for the driving impressions of Performance with PUO! :D Good to hear the PUO rides so well. It seems they tuned the P/PUO for some comfort. But how did it handle in (hard) turns. etc.?

I didn't push it to it's limits but it stayed planted very well with minimal body roll. Steering was stiffer than my F32 BMW in sport mode (in a good way). Regenerative braking on the highest setting wasn't as intrusive as I thought it would be. Acceleration was exhilarating with 4 people in the car and 80% charge.
 

Mad Hungarian

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TLDR: I measured the front Performance Upgrade Option front rotor diameter at 355 mm (which is also a highly standard size, including from Brembo), and the rear at 332 mm. The front caliper to wheel clearance is large enough to probably fit an 18 inch wheel, but perhaps ironically the rear caliper to wheel clearance may not fit an 18. However the barrel inner diameter of different wheels can vary by construction, so some 18s may fit while others may not.

Pictures, measurements, and analysis below:



Measuring PUO wheels and brakes:



Above 20 inch wheel with red PUO caliper.

Above: 20 inch wheel barrel inner diameter near plane of rotor I measured as 469 mm. Made multiple measurements. Since the measuring tape has a tab at 0, I started all measurements at the 10 cm = 100 mm line, so all measurements on tape should have 100 mm subtracted.


Above: Measurement set up for rotor outer diameter. (I made my measurement caliper from some Aluminum bar stock, wing nuts, and plastic shelf holders from hardware store. It worked adequately and was reasonably repeatable. I made the caliper as perpendicular to the wheels/rotors/calipers, etc., as possible when measuring and gently moved the measuring tips to just clear the thing under measurement.)

Above: PUO front rotor diameter 355 mm

Above: PUO rear rotor diameter 332 to 333 mm. (332 appears to be a standard Brembo diameter, so it could be 332.)

Above: Front caliper to wheel clearance at about 29 mm is more than an inch and therefore would probably fit 18 inch wheel. (Note that the other measurement tip was lined up with the "10" mark, but due to parallax, it looks like it doesn't. I moved the camera to have near zero parallax on the (other) measurement side.)

Above: However rear caliper to wheel clearance was less than 25 mm and therefore may not clear an 18 inch wheel. (Note that the other measurement tip was lined up with the "10" mark, but due to parallax, it looks like it doesn't. I moved the camera to have near zero parallax on the (other) measurement side.)



Analysis:


I was not able to measure the Aero wheel barrel inner diameter, but the Enkei Racing PF01 in 18 inch x 8.5 was reported as 433 mm barrel inner diameter by Tire Rack. 469 mm for 20 inch less 24 mm (x 2 for diameter) clearance of rear caliper to wheel would be an effective outer diameter to the caliper of 421 mm, which would be 11 mm smaller than the 433 and would fit at back. 469 less 29 mm (x 2 for diameter) front caliper clearance would be 411 mm, which would also be significantly smaller than 433 and would fit front.

If the Aero has a similar inner diameter, then it would fit the PUO brakes. However if the Aero inner diameter is significantly smaller, it may not fit. Still need a measurement.

Feedback from @Mad Hungarian would be welcomed, along with measurements of the Aero inner diameter from anyone.



Measuring LR 19 inch wheels and standard brakes:


Went inside and measured 19 inch wheels, rotors, caliper on Long Range Model 3.

Factory 19

19 inch wheel barrel inner diameter 444 mm. That would be about 25 mm smaller than the barrel inner diameter of the 20 inch wheel, which seems correct.

Rear rotor diameter ~331 mm (again, could be 332 mm, a standard Brembo size)

(Did not measure front rotor, believed to be 320 mm.)

Rear caliper to 19 inch wheel clearance about 26 to 27 mm; might actually clear some 17 inch wheels.


Since the 19 inch wheel's 444 mm barrel inner diameter is much larger than the PUO caliper effective outer diameters of 421 and 411 mm, the 19 inch wheel should fit PUO brakes.



@Sasha Anis May I ask you to please measure the radius to the outside of the caliper of the 365 mm rotor upgrade so I can confirm it won't fit the 18 inch Enkei barrel inner diameter of 433 mm?
Nice work!!
So we now know that these are the infamous 355mm front rotors mentioned in the early owner's manual. And I agree with your assessment that it's actually the PUP rears that appear to be causing the issue for 18".
My guess at this point is that Duals and the non-PUP P3D will have the same brakes as RWD. The hunt continues...
 

MountainPass

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@JeffC - I also *love* the aero 18's and efficient tires. I just think it's so impressive how efficient the car is and I would not want to do anything to take away from that efficiency, and how hard Tesla worked on that.

For that reason right now we're just swapping our brake kit on at the track. Possibly in the future, there will be a 19" wheel with some aero caps that are as efficient as OEM, but until then I think we'll keep swapping! It only takes about 15 minutes per side once you've done it.

When we went to the track the other day it took one person one hour to swap the wheels, change the rotors and calipers and also change the front pads. Obviously, you could do it before heading to the track as well!
 

JeffC

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Nice work!!
So we now know that these are the infamous 355mm front rotors mentioned in the early owner's manual. And I agree with your assessment that it's actually the PUP rears that appear to be causing the issue for 18".
My guess at this point is that Duals and the non-PUP P3D will have the same brakes as RWD. The hunt continues...
Thanks! If you can find the barrel inner diameter of the Aero, we can tell if it would fit the PUO brakes.

Also if you can help find 18s with circa 430 mm barrel inner diameter to clear an effective 421 rear caliper diameter and appropriate bolt circle and offsets, then we can start to figure out which 18s may fit PUO brakes. As I mentioned Tire Rack thought the Enkei PF01 18x8.5 would fit, but now I want 9s up front and probably 10s at back.
 

Gene B

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Emailed Forgestar about their CF14 18" wheels and they state that they have 440mm barrel opening. Sounds like Forgestar may be an option for the Winter 18" wheel on the P3D. The wheels alone should cost just under $1500.
That means if we go for 235/45/18 Sottozero II, it's $223.78/tire
If we go for 235/40/19 Sottozero II, it's $240.33/tire
18" gives us 4.2" of sidewall for pothole handling, while 19" gives us 3.7" (not much)
 
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Mad Hungarian

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Thanks! If you can find the barrel inner diameter of the Aero, we can tell if it would fit the PUO brakes.

Also if you can help find 18s with circa 430 mm barrel inner diameter to clear an effective 421 rear caliper diameter and appropriate bolt circle and offsets, then we can start to figure out which 18s may fit PUO brakes. As I mentioned Tire Rack thought the Enkei PF01 18x8.5 would fit, but now I want 9s up front and probably 10s at back.
No cars with Aeros handy at the moment, although I might be getting one in next week for a "project", so I will be sure to grab measurements then.

The problem with trying to compare the barrel clearance of a wheel to the max height of a caliper is that these dimensions are not uniform across the plane that concerns us. To give an example, here's a cross section of one of our 18x10.0 wheels. As you will see the barrel has a visible taper to it. I've inserted a red vertical line to denote the point at which it offers enough Y-factor (the industry term for barrel clearance) to be able to work with the caliper height you've given. Note that this line appears at about 10 mm inwards along the X-axis from the wheel's mounting pad.
upload_2018-8-1_16-24-6.png


The maximum height of the caliper occurs in specific spot along that X-axis as well, and we really need to know where that is in order to validate the fitment.
If the caliper only reaches max height at the red line or further towards the wheel's inner lip (to the left), everything is fine. However if the max height of the caliper is any closer to the plane of the mounting pad - or worse, past it towards the right - then it isn't going to work. This wheel example has got fairly good Y-factor numbers that are representative of a lot of wheels this size, but the barrel form can still vary quite a bit from model to model, some have a steady taper like this, others are relatively cylindrical with a sudden step down for the drop-center (that dip where the tire is installed). The only way I'd feel really comfortable recommending anything would be to have a full caliper profile, which I will definitely be scanning as soon as we get a P3D PUP in the area.
Likewise, if a wheel manufacturer gives you an total inner diameter or Y-factor dimension without reference to where that clearance is available along the X-axis, it won't give you the full story due to the factors described above.
 

JeffC

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No cars with Aeros handy at the moment, although I might be getting one in next week for a "project", so I will be sure to grab measurements then.

The problem with trying to compare the barrel clearance of a wheel to the max height of a caliper is that these dimensions are not uniform across the plane that concerns us. To give an example, here's a cross section of one of our 18x10.0 wheels. As you will see the barrel has a visible taper to it. I've inserted a red vertical line to denote the point at which it offers enough Y-factor (the industry term for barrel clearance) to be able to work with the caliper height you've given. Note that this line appears at about 10 mm inwards along the X-axis from the wheel's mounting pad.
View attachment 12499

The maximum height of the caliper occurs in specific spot along that X-axis as well, and we really need to know where that is in order to validate the fitment.
If the caliper only reaches max height at the red line or further towards the wheel's inner lip (to the left), everything is fine. However if the max height of the caliper is any closer to the plane of the mounting pad - or worse, past it towards the right - then it isn't going to work. This wheel example has got fairly good Y-factor numbers that are representative of a lot of wheels this size, but the barrel form can still vary quite a bit from model to model, some have a steady taper like this, others are relatively cylindrical with a sudden step down for the drop-center (that dip where the tire is installed). The only way I'd feel really comfortable recommending anything would be to have a full caliper profile, which I will definitely be scanning as soon as we get a P3D PUP in the area.
Likewise, if a wheel manufacturer gives you an total inner diameter or Y-factor dimension without reference to where that clearance is available along the X-axis, it won't give you the full story due to the factors described above.
Agree barrels aren't necessarily the same inner diameter at all points, and I tried to measure the barrel near the plane of the rotor. Yes, the calipers are a bit pointy and appear to have a minimum clearance at the outside corners. That was from using my measuring calipers as feeler gauges.
 
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Mad Hungarian

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Agree barrels aren't necessarily the same inner diameter at all points, and I tried to measure the barrel near the plane of the rotor. Yes, the calipers are a bit pointy and appear to have a minimum clearance at the outside corners. That was from using my measuring calipers as feeler gauges.
Well it's a good jumping-off point for now, but we'll need full across-the-board numbers for both the Aero barrel and the PUP calipers before we can definitevely say what works.
 

Cbutters

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Let us know when you get those 18" Aero wheel measurements in. I'm hoping there might be some solution for Aero 18s on the performance package. (even if it is shaving down the edge of a caliper and repainting.... ????)
 

JeffC

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Had my Performance Model 3 test drive yesterday, and posted about it separately at:

https://teslaownersonline.com/threads/performance-model-3-test-drive-notes-quick-review.8034/

Also took a closer look at both the 20 inch PUO wheels and the Aeros and both do taper down in diameter towards the spokes. When I measured earlier, I measured about 20 mm inboard of the visible line cast into the wheels. Tried to measure the barrel near the caliper high point, but due to the taper, properly would need the full wheel profile to check the fit to the calipers.

Really the easiest test would be to carefully do a check fit of Aero onto the rear PUO calipers to see if there's interference. Maybe tape over the high spots on the caliper to prevent any contact to the finish.
 

samson

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Hoping the 18" Aero fit the Model 3 DMP ( Dual Motor Performance).

I will be getting mine next weekend and requested to swap 18" AERO to see the fitment before I buy at Tesla store, since there isnt clear evidence that it wont fit. Tesla usually wouldnt design that isnt compatible with the line up but will see.
 

samson

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The fact that Tesla Model 3 has 2 Winter tire set one 18" and 19" make me think the 19" is for the Performance versions...... sigh
 

Mad Hungarian

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Hoping the 18" Aero fit the Model 3 DMP ( Dual Motor Performance).

I will be getting mine next weekend and requested to swap 18" AERO to see the fitment before I buy at Tesla store, since there isnt clear evidence that it wont fit. Tesla usually wouldnt design that isnt compatible with the line up but will see.
They fit the base Performance 3, in fact that's what comes with the car, but apparently not the bigger brakes that come with the Performance Upgrade Option. It remains to be seen if another variety of 18" wheel can be made to fit with PUO.
 

Mad Hungarian

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The fact that Tesla Model 3 has 2 Winter tire set one 18" and 19" make me think the 19" is for the Performance versions...... sigh
That is correct, however that needs to more precisely read " 19" is for Performance versions with PUO".
 

Matex

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I am a reservation holder two years ago and the delivery estimate here in Europe is early 2019. My concern is about the narrow options range to choose of.
As many of you, I intend to configure AWD with 18" wheels and buy aftermarket 20" wheels.
But the options don't include air suspension and other color seats like cream.
Do you know if, without those options, can I delay my order, when they call me?
I am not in a hurry since my current car is in excelent shape (BMW5) but I decided to go electric.
Model 3 can beat BMW3 performance but, unfortunately, it is far away from the available options for customers!
 

JeffC

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I am a reservation holder two years ago and the delivery estimate here in Europe is early 2019. My concern is about the narrow options range to choose of.
As many of you, I intend to configure AWD with 18" wheels and buy aftermarket 20" wheels.
But the options don't include air suspension and other color seats like cream.
Do you know if, without those options, can I delay my order, when they call me?
I am not in a hurry since my current car is in excelent shape (BMW5) but I decided to go electric.
Model 3 can beat BMW3 performance but, unfortunately, it is far away from the available options for customers!
If you are a reservation holder, you can hold it basically forever. Once you're allowed to configure, you can do that at any time.

After you order, you can update your order at any time up until a VIN is assigned, meaning they are beginning to build the car. However making changes to your order may lose your place in the build queue and cause your car to be built later. (It's like leaving a queue and rejoining at the end of the queue, but with some other factors considered. Place in the queue is somewhat complex and based on location, configuration, previous Tesla ownership, reservation date, etc.)

However, once you order, if you cancel the order, then you forfeit (lose) the $2500 order fee, which is like a construction bond (a guarantee that you will take delivery of the car you ordered).

If you want to wait for more options, simply hold onto your reservation and wait until more options become available, before ordering.

There may be an air suspension option, and the white interior may become more widely available later. Other interior colors may also become available as time passes.

As an aside, I was not sure if I would like the white interior, but since it's partially black and partially white, I like it very much. Would probably prefer a cream interior also, but the black with white is very tasteful and not overly bright, since it's a mixture of both.

The Premium White Interior option has white seats, white dashboard in place of the wood veneer, and white door panels where there is black Alcantara on the Premium Black Interior.

P.S. You may want to post your questions on a thread in the ordering forum. This thread is in the technical forum, and this thread is a discussion of technical details about the Performance Upgrade Option of the Performance Model 3; pretty specific. :)

P.P.S. Super happy you're getting a Tesla. These are excellent cars in very many ways. I say that objectively and not as a fan.
 
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Matex

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If you are a reservation holder, you can hold it basically forever. Once you're allowed to configure, you can do that at any time.

After you order, you can update your order at any time up until a VIN is assigned, meaning they are beginning to build the car. However making changes to your order may lose your place in the build queue and cause your car to be built later. (It's like leaving a queue and rejoining at the end of the queue, but with some other factors considered. Place in the queue is somewhat complex and based on location, configuration, previous Tesla ownership, reservation date, etc.)

However, once you order, if you cancel the order, then you forfeit (lose) the $2500 order fee, which is like a construction bond (a guarantee that you will take delivery of the car you ordered).

If you want to wait for more options, simply hold onto your reservation and wait until more options become available, before ordering.

There may be an air suspension option, and the white interior may become more widely available later. Other interior colors may also become available as time passes.

As an aside, I was not sure if I would like the white interior, but since it's partially black and partially white, I like it very much. Would probably prefer a cream interior also, but the black with white is very tasteful and not overly bright, since it's a mixture of both.

The Premium White Interior option has white seats, white dashboard in place of the wood veneer, and white door panels where there is black Alcantara on the Premium Black Interior.

P.S. You may want to post your questions on a thread in the ordering forum. This thread is in the technical forum, and this thread is a discussion of technical details about the Performance Upgrade Option of the Performance Model 3; pretty specific. :)

P.P.S. Super happy you're getting a Tesla. These are excellent cars in very many ways. I say that objectively and not as a fan.

Thanks very much JeffC. You are very helpful. I considered already the option white seats, but I don't like the white dashboard.
I am going to look for the thread in the ordering forum, as you advise. Sorry my mistake.
Regards
 

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