Supercharging: Pricing Options?!?

thecatdad

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#61
Three reason I believe Tesla won't charge for SC:

1) In Tesla's most recent financials, the electricity usage for the SC network is slightly mentioned. Meaning it's only talked about as being paid for by a small part of the money received by car sales, but it mentions that the cost to the company is so little, they don't even expound on the numbers.

2) 'Free for life.'

3) charging for SC use directly flies in the face of the missions to 'Accelerate the advent of sustainable travel.'
 

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#62
I don't know what point you're trying to make.

I think it's ridiculous to expect Tesla to charge money for Supercharging - see any of my previous posts - whether we are talking about per hour, per kW, or per number of usages. You disagree. What format do you think they are most likely to implement?
The point is specific to your comments that Tesla would slow down the rate of charge on a Supercharge session to be able to charge one more for a time-based charge mechanism.

I contend that this is contrary to their best interest because they already have a large group of customers in S and X vehicles that use the network and are processed as quickly as possible and if they were to charge 3 customers in this manner that Tesla would still process such customers judiciously and expeditiously because they won't want to alienate the entire supercharger capable Tesla community. That is all. I don't know what model will be implemented by Tesla for supercharger access, nor do they, I suspect, at the moment,
 

thecatdad

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#63
The point is specific to your comments that Tesla would slow down the rate of charge on a Supercharge session to be able to charge one more for a time-based charge mechanism.

I contend that this is contrary to their best interest because they already have a large group of customers in S and X vehicles that use the network and are processed as quickly as possible and if they were to charge 3 customers in this manner that Tesla would still process such customers judiciously and expeditiously because they won't want to alienate the entire supercharger capable Tesla community. That is all. I don't know what model will be implemented by Tesla for supercharger access, nor do they, I suspect, at the moment,
Ok, fair enough.

It is my contention that the likelihood of Tesla charging over not is the same as the likelihood of them throttling the SC rate to keep people 'paying at the pump' longer to maximize profits. That is, it is so unlikely that the chance is negligible. In my previous posts I've explained why I believe this.

As for the specific example above, outside of California I have yet to hear of anyone having a problem with either waiting for a charger or people overusing them. At the local SC in Macedonia, I've seen 1 car there in 2016. I drive past at rush hour. So I think the 'overcrowding' problem is greatly exaggerated in the vast majority of the country. Sure, there are about to be 10 times more Teslas on the road in the next four or so years, but the SC network is expanding as well. Therefore, I believe the outcome of throttling charge speed in order to pull more money out of people does not necessarily translate to alienating the Tesla community. Little to no impact would be felt by the community at 99% of the SCs.
 

AEDennis

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#64
Ok, fair enough.

It is my contention that the likelihood of Tesla charging over not is the same as the likelihood of them throttling the SC rate to keep people 'paying at the pump' longer to maximize profits. That is, it is so unlikely that the chance is negligible. In my previous posts I've explained why I believe this.

As for the specific example above, outside of California I have yet to hear of anyone having a problem with either waiting for a charger or people overusing them. At the local SC in Macedonia, I've seen 1 car there in 2016. I drive past at rush hour. So I think the 'overcrowding' problem is greatly exaggerated in the vast majority of the country. Sure, there are about to be 10 times more Teslas on the road in the next four or so years, but the SC network is expanding as well. Therefore, I believe the outcome of throttling charge speed in order to pull more money out of people does not necessarily translate to alienating the Tesla community. Little to no impact would be felt by the community at 99% of the SCs.
When I visited the Macedonia, OH Supercharger last year, I was the only one there.... As was the case in many stops along the way... However, Tesla's policy for supercharging has never been consistent, they now like to use the term. "Free for long-distance travel" vs. your point 2 "free for life." We purchased our Model S when they said "free supercharging for life."... So, the question of whether they will or won't charge is an open one. At LEAST we know that all the cars will be built to be capable of supercharging.

Either way, we have years to wait to see whether Tesla will change its policy for Model 3 or just continue to solidify the current "free for long distance travel" provisions.
 

thecatdad

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#65
Yep, I agree. Another variable is futuretech... Liquid cooled cables, higher capacity amperage accepted, etc. I imagine the end goal is to refuel an electric car at the same rate as gas. Could be in a matter of years. It's feasible that Tesla are well on their way to unlocking the technology necessary. Faster charging batteries coupled with cables capable of transferring energy quickly (it exists, it's just cost prohibitive) could help solve the problem of time spent at SCs.
 

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#66
As far as supercharger congestion goes, I've noticed that supercharger stations tend to be laid out like a car park: a row of spots where you back in, then drive away forwards. Obviously the charge time means it's different compared to a petrol station, but they are at least made to funnel the maximum number of cars through in a given time. A row of pumps where you drive in one way and drive out in the same direction (roll in roll out), with usually an orderly lineup waiting for the next available spot. Perhaps that could help those busy areas.
 

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#67
Something that hadn't occurred to me until Jack Rickard pointed out somewhere in this long video ( ): Tesla can make Supercharger stations profitable by the simple addition of a convenience store. Petrol station owners make much more money from snacks and coffee than they make from petrol. Being Tesla I imagine it would be a high-end convenience store, not a kiwk-e-mart with floor hotdogs and all that.

I don't think Tesla have the energy spare to do that right now, mind you. But it's a model that works.
I have long been in favor of what I would call a Tesla Waypoint or Tesla Depot location designed to fulfill the road traveling needs of electric vehicles. Primarily set up with Superchargers and HPWCs, but with CCS and CHAdeMO high speed DC chargers on hand as well as J1772. It would be a nice way to promote EVs while providing a place with a lounge, food court, lavatories, and even a Service Center and/or Tesla Store at larger sites, in addition to convenience items. I would hope that certain products (alcohol, tobacco, chewing gum...) were not offered though. The photos that accompanied a recent blog post by Tesla seem to include what may be an on-site lounge.




 

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#68
I have long been in favor of what I would call a Tesla Waypoint or Tesla Depot location designed to fulfill the road traveling needs of electric vehicles. Primarily set up with Superchargers and HPWCs, but with CCS and CHAdeMO high speed DC chargers on hand as well as J1772. It would be a nice way to promote EVs while providing a place with a lounge, food court, lavatories, and even a Service Center and/or Tesla Store at larger sites, in addition to convenience items. I would hope that certain products (alcohol, tobacco, chewing gum...) were not offered though. The photos that accompanied a recent blog post by Tesla seem to include what may be an on-site lounge.




@Red Sage, your response reminds me of my response to that post a few weeks ago. I wrote an article on my blog.
 

MelindaV

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#69
there is a thread on reddit with multiple Model S buyers being advised by their tesla sales person that if ordered by midnight tonight (or end of Q2?) they will have supercharging for life, and tied to the MyTesla account, not the VIN. Supposedly there will be a press release coming out shortly.....
so besides multiple people saying this has been confirmed by a tesla sales person, it's not been publically announced by Tesla...
 

Bokonon

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#70
there is a thread on reddit with multiple Model S buyers being advised by their tesla sales person that if ordered by midnight tonight (or end of Q2?) they will have supercharging for life, and tied to the MyTesla account, not the VIN. Supposedly there will be a press release coming out shortly.....
so besides multiple people saying this has been confirmed by a tesla sales person, it's not been publically announced by Tesla...
Seeing similar threads on TMC, the official Tesla forums, and elsewhere. Consensus seems to be emerging that the owner (not the vehicle?!) of any Model S/X sold this quarter will be grandfathered into this free-supercharging program, and that the Tesla reps were only given this information earlier today. Very curious... half-expecting an Elon tweet about it before he goes to bed...
 
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#72
I have one SC about 20 miles away, and now I see that Tesla is planning to build another local SC.... 20 miles away in a different direction. So I likely wouldn't use them often.

Here's my supercharging access idea. A monthly plan. If you usually never go to a SC, then you don't get charged (get it? CHARGED, hahahaha) for SC access.

But if you are planning to go on a vacation or road trip of some kind, you can call up Tesla, and for $50 or so, you get a month of unlimited SC access. Then if you don't continue it, it expires at the end of a month.

Tesla gets to make money, you don't get CHARGED for SC access when you rarely use it, sounds like a good deal to me.
 

MelindaV

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#73
that is in a way what the 400kWh plan is... but the first 400kWh included for free and you are not on the hook to disable/unsubscribe from a $50/month plan.
to get your $50 worth, at my local SC rate, you would have to be using over 1500 miles solely on SC energy (using .11/kwh and assuming 3.5m/kw).
on the 400kWh plan you'd get 1400 miles for free.

My road trips generally have maxed out around 1400 miles. A number of times I have gone from Portland to the bay area (roughly 650 miles ea way for 1300 total), multiple times a year Portland to Seattle (160 ea way for 320 total) and once Portland to South Bend (2200 miles ea way, 4400 RT when gas was above $4/gal and never plan to do that again ;) )

So assuming my patterns are somewhat normal, the 400kWh covers a typical extended trip, or multiple shorter trips. Since I don't know many people who drive across the country on a regular basis, the 4400 mile weekend trip is far from what we should be planning for.
but even still, to use my local SC rate on it, that would have cost about $138 (obviously it would vary by SC location, but generalizing) compared to $700+ I paid for that trip to IN in fuel (which I know isn't what you were getting at, but couldn't help but compare).
 

Red Sage

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#74
I have one SC about 20 miles away, and now I see that Tesla is planning to build another local SC.... 20 miles away in a different direction. So I likely wouldn't use them often.

Here's my supercharging access idea. A monthly plan. If you usually never go to a SC, then you don't get charged (get it? CHARGED, hahahaha) for SC access.

But if you are planning to go on a vacation or road trip of some kind, you can call up Tesla, and for $50 or so, you get a month of unlimited SC access. Then if you don't continue it, it expires at the end of a month.

Tesla gets to make money, you don't get CHARGED for SC access when you rarely use it, sounds like a good deal to me.
The current plan is (though described by everyone in the world other than me as 'Pay Per Use', ~*blech*~) that you purchase Charging Credits or kWh 'blocks' ahead of time through the Tesla website. I'm pretty sure they don't expire. And by saving a credit card on your My Tesla account, it would automatically 'refill' itself, to whatever level you prefer, I believe. What you are describing is more of a 'Subscriber Plan' and that is the sort of thing that prior to the announcement of 'FREE (of additional fees) for LIFE (the life of the car)!' Supercharging in October 2012, most Tesla Enthusiasts presumed would be the payment method for Supercharger access. It is also the sort of thing that ANALysts, pundits, talking heads, investors, and stockholders understand as a continual revenue stream they perceive could someday make Tesla 'The NeXT EXXON!!!' or whatever. But here the thing is... If you know you will 'rarely use it', you have no incentive to take part in the subscription plan at all. You can just leave things as is, and just purchase Charging Credits, or a block of kWh, when you know you are going to use the Supercharger network. You should be able to do so from your computer, laptop, tablet, or mobile phone rather easily, even if it is an unexpected situation that you encounter.
 

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#75
There has been recent talk of people who get a "referral" from an existing Model S/X owner would get free supercharging when buying a new tesla.. would that apply to those who already pre-ordered a model 3, or only people who are new to make an order you think?
 

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#76
There has been recent talk of people who get a "referral" from an existing Model S/X owner would get free supercharging when buying a new tesla.. would that apply to those who already pre-ordered a model 3, or only people who are new to make an order you think?
the referrals are only on S and X, not the Model 3.
 

AEDennis

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#77
There has been recent talk of people who get a "referral" from an existing Model S/X owner would get free supercharging when buying a new tesla.. would that apply to those who already pre-ordered a model 3, or only people who are new to make an order you think?
the referrals are only on S and X, not the Model 3.
I seriously think that the paid supercharging model that was announced for S and X at the beginning of the year (that has since been clawed back) is how the future (i.e. 3 and Y) will be modeled for Tesla. If Energy is their future, they have to charge for it. The company is NOT a charity and will need to eventually make a profit to make its impact on the world greater and ensure that the firm is sustainable in of itself and continue to lead the rest of the industry to change.
 

MelindaV

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#78
I do feel (and have said something along this same line last year) that the Supercharging will end up feeling like a class separator and the S/X owners will see the lowly (funny autocorrect made that LOVELY - haha) Model 3 owners as less worthy of the network, even if the Model 3 owners are the ones paying per use AND outnumbering the S/X vehicles.
maybe I'm just preparing myself for the first time someone with a $140k vehicle looks down on my mere $50k vehicle...
 

AEDennis

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#79
I do feel (and have said something along this same line last year) that the Supercharging will end up feeling like a class separator and the S/X owners will see the lowly (funny autocorrect made that LOVELY - haha) Model 3 owners as less worthy of the network, even if the Model 3 owners are the ones paying per use AND outnumbering the S/X vehicles.
maybe I'm just preparing myself for the first time someone with a $140k vehicle looks down on my mere $50k vehicle...
I know plenty who drive the most basic Model S that is about $10k more than the $50k Model 3...

So, just because the S goes to $140k, not all spent that much to get their S (or X) and many are closer to the $50k price.

So, if you're not planning on driving too much on the SC network, save some money and get a 3. Must warn you though, once you start driving electric, the average 40 mile commute becomes longer because you end up taking LOTS of detours to stay "in the car."
 

MelindaV

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#80
I have no issue with the 400kWh free then $0.xx per kW plan (or per minute) personally. It actually is quite similar to what I may have suggested back a year ago when it was being debated if there would be a $2000 option to access the SCers or a pay per use sort of thing.
I just think dividing the fleet into Free for Life and Pay per Use by the model causes some superiority issues with some.