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Is the new pay per use system fair?

  • Yes

    Votes: 82 81.2%
  • No

    Votes: 1 1.0%
  • I would prefer to have free for life for x$

    Votes: 14 13.9%
  • I won't use Superchargers much

    Votes: 4 4.0%

Supercharging (Model 3)> Free or Pay?

49K views 325 replies 82 participants last post by  Red Sage 
#1 ·
All,

So it has been stated that Tesla and Elon have not decided whether to offer "Free Supercharging" to the Model 3 Owners. Only that Supercharging capability will be "made available."

(1) Will this decision be made before we 'pull the trigger' on Configuring in Design Studio and final purchase?
(2) If not will this hanging decision affect whether you finalize your "purchase" or not?
(3) If it's decided that Supercharging is NOT free....will you still Purchase or not?

I.E. How will this affect your Purchasing Decision.

Ski
 
#2 ·
I think we all assumed it was included from reveal. But based on recent tweets, I went back and watched it again. During the reveal, the screen behind ELON said SUPERCHARGING CAPABILITY and he said "all model 3s will come with supercharging standard". So he, for some reason left out the word HARDWARE, that he used to describe the Autopilot. So IMO, it will be a cost to activate the Supercharging like on the old 60kw model S and it will also be a fee to turn on the Autopilot like the S and X today.

So,
1 and 2) I think this decision is already made. Too costly to make free for this car. Something has to pay for new stations. These options will cost you.
3) I don't road trip and I like to drive, so I will not pay to activate these features.
 
#117 ·
I think we all assumed it was included from reveal. But based on recent tweets, I went back and watched it again. = so I will not pay to activate these features.
YES I will still get my Model 3 that I ordered. I never expected FREE Super Charging since the S 60 had it as a $2,000 option. That seems very fair to me. The number of Super Charger locations is growing and covers almost the entire US every 100 miles on all major highways. That is really great.
 
#3 ·
So .......

in the case of "Pay to Play"..... Do you think it will be a 'flat rate one time fee"? I.e. $1,000 added to the Model 3 purchase to 'activate' it for unlimited charging (what I'm interested in-unlimited) OR a "Turn on" and "Pay as you go" charging plan?

Ski
 
#4 ·
IMO, it will be a turn on fee similar to the S. Since it is now included on those car, $1000 would probably be a number that is close, As for the Autopilot, that will be the same as the S, $2,000. But the safety aspects of the Autopilot hardware will be standard. Autobrake and such, since it will be required to achieve the new 5 star standards.
 
#5 ·
#54 ·
Hi I'm just getting back to this post: there's no such thing as a 40 kWh Model S.
They initially announced it then decided there was not enough orders to justify production.
This "enable Supercharging after purchase" option is only for some 60 kWh Model S who didn't buy it with the option.

As many options AFTER purchase, they are more expensive than buying them at purchase time!
Model S 60 kWh at purchase = $2000
Model S 60 kWh after purchase = $2500
Model S Autopilot at purchase = $2800
Model S Autopilot after purchase = $3400

So if you're pretty sure you'll need something, I recommend you to buy the option initially with the car to save money.
 
#6 ·
For me, since Supercharging is a requirement, I'm going to purchase it. I have assumed that the base model, like the 60kWh would not include it. I would suspect that the enabling cost would be closer to $1000 than the $2500 for the model S.
 
#7 ·
It's a requirement for me as well......so I'll be purchasing it as well. Maybe the 'Mid-Level' battery will include it.

Ski
 
#8 ·
Has it ever come up that Tesla may offer the Superchargers on a pay-as-you-go model like the other for-profit chargers but at the Supercharger speed? Currently there is only one Superchargers operating within my typical travels (halfway point between Portland:Seattle for the 4 or 5 Seattle trips I make a year) and not sure for max of 10 charges a year it would be worth it at $1,000.
 
#16 ·
Has it ever come up that Tesla may offer the Superchargers on a pay-as-you-go model like the other for-profit chargers but at the Supercharger speed?
In the past, Tesla has deliberately avoided the expense of a "per transaction" setup and associated billing. That's a lot of overhead that just isn't necessary...I think it's a pretty simple decision for the driver. If you take roadtrips, then you pay a flat fee for the supercharging service. If you don't take road trips, then you save the money and don't pay the flat fee. But the hardware will be included on every car and can be turned on with a simple one time payment.

I've taken a lot of road trips in my Model S...On separate trips we've gone to Canada, Texas, Colorado, the Grand Canyon, Lake Tahoe/Reno, etc. It's a lot of fun to do, and the charging is easy. I'll definitely be paying whatever the fee is to use the Superchargers...
 
#10 ·
I think they will include it in a higher capacity battery, but the base model will have to pay. Think of it this way....If it is $1000, that's 400 gallons of gas at $2.50. A nice mid size sedan may get 25 on the highway, so the first 10,000 miles of Supercharging will cost you like an ICE but after that it is free. :( But like Skione65 posted above, it's currently $2500 for a 60kw model S owner to activate. OUCH!
 
#11 ·
Does the current Tesla have a charging meter? I guess it would be easy to do the billing due to the internet connection.

I have heard that a lot of people overuse the closest Supercharger especially Taxis so there is probably a need to do some kind of fee to get rid of the buffet syndrome (when people consume more than they actually need because something is free)
 
#12 · (Edited)
Does the current Tesla have a charging meter? I guess it would be easy to do the billing due to the internet connection.

I have heard that a lot of people overuse the closest Supercharger especially Taxis so there is probably a need to do some kind of fee to get rid of the buffet syndrome (when people consume more than they actually need because something is free)
None of the Superchargers have pay for use meters on them. All Tesla cars, other than Model 3, have free for life unlimited use as it is included in the price of the car. It would be too much for Tesla to retrofit the chargers with pay per use. What they could do instead is a billed system from them per use since they know which cars are plugged into the Supercharger system at all times as the VIN is recorded when you plug it in. All that information is sent back to Tesla in real time.

Gut feeling is that it will be either a paid-up front cost like the old 60Kwh Model S or they will just include it into the price of the Model 3. The last option is preferable for most and would be very much increase their sales. Time will tell.
 
This post has been deleted
#14 ·
Mainly the Superchargers are to allow for long distance travel between cities. During normal daily commutes you would probably charge overnight at home but if you were to travel to a city 300 or so miles away you would run out of charge before arriving at your location so a Supercharger is basically an "electrical" gas station to refuel. Another advantage to the Tesla Supercharger is it isn't a 110v outlet but a high voltage charger to make the refuelling as quick as possible. Destination chargers and home chargers take a little longer to recharge in most cases.

With free Supercharger access it means you can literally drive without paying any refueling costs. Some people if they are close enough can even avoid using home electricity (and paying your utility) by recharging at the free Supercharger. Most people will still prefer to recharge at home overnight for the convenience.
 
#15 ·
The guy at the showroom just said that you can count on supercharging being an optional add on, and emphasized the words SUPERCHARGING CAPABLE were on the screen behind Elon, and he intended to say or imply that the equipment would be installed on ALL cars, and you could add on supercharging later if you do not buy it upfront. . .much like the autonomous tech is built in every car for safety features enabled on ALL And all of the sensors are there ... So that if you don't buy autonomous feature now, you can activate later.
 
#17 ·
I think its going to be an extra charge. Perhaps not the $2,500 they charged on the S60 but still an extra charge. Hard to maintain margins otherwise.
 
#18 · (Edited)
And correct me if I'm wrong, but don't you need to upgrade to the second on board charger to get faster charging from 240 vac?

**edit for quote**

"A Wall Connector is installed on a 240 volt circuit and can be supplied with up to twice the amperage as an outlet. At maximum amperage it supplies two times more power than the Single Charger can process. This is where Dual Chargers come into play, doubling the charging capacity to 20 kW to match the output of the Wall Connector."

https://www.teslamotors.com/models-charging#/basics
 
#19 ·
For NEMA 14-50 levels you don't need dual chargers. For HPWC max speed you do. Chargers aren't needed for Superchargers so you dont need dual chargers for that either. Im guessing the 3 won't have a dual charger option.
 
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#22 ·
No, Teslas once have one charge port connector hidden in the left side tail light housing. Nissan LEAFS , if equipped with fast DC have 2 connectors, one for J1772 and the other is a CHAdeMO connector. Some other other cars like the BMW i3 use CCS which is a J1772 connector with 2 extra ports on the bottom that can supply more than 40 amps.

The dual chargers we mention are 2 electronic boxes located under the rear seat that can accept up to 80 Amps of AC to charge the battery.

Superchargers are DC so they shunt directly into the battery and bypass the chargers entirely.

Sorry if it sounds confusing, I know EV charging is rather new to a lot of people, but I explain a lot more in my next video.
 
#25 ·
It's a big confusing at first, but that is what we are all here for... to help one another. The biggest thing to keep in mind when talking chargers as it relates to EV's (Volt included) is that the charger isn't something that is external to the car. Rather, it's a device that's internal to the car. One thing, for me, that would not make a lot of sense is if the M3 does not have the ability to accept the full 80A from the wall connector. I've actually wondered if Tesla was going to include a single 80A charger, a single 40A, or offer duals. I think that by them not offering a 80A option, it will cause some confusion with wall charger purchases. Sure, you can configure the wall charger to any amperage really (up to 80A), but if I configure one for 80A and I can only get 40A for it, that's a lot of extra installation that I have paid for that I could never take advantage of.
 
#27 ·
Exactly. People are under the impression that daily driving will drain the Tesla battery to a point that they will need 12 hours or so to recharge it and that is simply not true.

It's a behavioural change. With a gas car we typically fill the tank and drive until it's almost empty then fill it up.

A Tesla should be treated just like your cell phone. You drive it normally doing your thing during your normal day and plug in it overnight each day.

Every morning you wake to a full charge. It's not complicated and you very quickly adapt and do it instinctively.
 
#29 ·
Currently, I own a 2016 KIA Soul EV+ The recommendation is to only charge to around 80% the driver intends to use the car around town for commuting. According the KIA, charging the Soul to 100% should be done only occasionally or when the driver intends on taking a long trip.
 
#30 · (Edited)
To be accurate, there is no such thing as a normal 240V 40A circuit. Nor is something like that small. Much of the confusion here comes from, like a few of you said, the thinking of ICE vehicle driving behavior (full--> dead --> back to full) as well as there being no standard in the EV industry. Rather than trying to understand "normal" or circuits, I like to break things down into what the industry uses and what is common. This way, you can understand your actual needs. To preface, these is for US-based power. These are different elsewhere:

Battery Size: 60 kWh
I'm fully expecting the battery in the M3 to be 60kWh. There is a chance that it could be more, or less, but we'll use 60kWh for the sake of discussion since the Bolt is using a 60kWh battery, so it makes understanding this a bit easier.

Average Commute: 50 miles (or ~15 kWh)
Now, some people's averages are more, some are less, but considering that the research that GM did a few years ago leaned towards the average being 40-50 miles and used that for the Volt, it makes things easy.

EV Charging Recommendation: Every day
Unlike ICE cars which are driven from a full tank to empty and then back to full, EV's are designed to be charged every day. This is a change in behavior and change in habit. So, charging requirements are based on what you consume every day, not what it takes to go from dead to full, which will not be normal behavior.

Power: W=VA
When talking power, it is also important to know the equation that creates it. Power, measured in Watts, is the product of Electrical Potential, measured in Volts multiplied by the amount of current, measured in Amps.

Circuit Safety: 80%
When you are dealing with circuits and, specifically, fuses and circuit breakers, it is important to note that many of them are only rated for 80% continuous load. While electrical codes do allow for 100% rated circuits, there are conditions that have to be met for this to actually happen (wiring as well as environmental) and you will usually only find 100% circuits in newer builds. Thus, under most circumstances, a 15A circuit, for example, will only provide 12A of continuous load.

NEMA Receptacles:
The National Electrical Manufacturers Association (NEMA) is a company that sets the standards for AC plugs and receptacles in the United States. NEMA plugs have a type (the first number) and a current rating (the second number). The standard receptacle in the US is the NEMA 5-15R. NEMA 5 is what denotes the 2 vertical blades with the ground plug, 15 is the current rating (15A), and the "R" signifies whether it's a plug or a receptacle (if a plug, it would be 15P). So, a NEMA 5-15P plugs into a NEMA 5-15R.

Now that we have set the stage, let's talk about power. In the EV world, there are two types of power in the home: Level 1 and Level 2.

Level 1:
Level 1 charging is described as using a standard 110V 15A circuit. These types of circuits use (typically) a NEMA 5-15R in the home (the standard wall socket). This receptacle can usually provide a maximum of 12A to the car. If there is nothing else on the circuit but the car, you are able to supply a maximum power of 1,320W (1.32kW) to the car. At that rate, it would take you approximately 46 hours to fully charge your EV. However, let's take the average commute into consideration. If all you did was your average commute, it would take approximately 11 1/2 hours to charge. If you are home by 6:00p and do not leave again until 7:00a the next morning, then Level 1 charging would provide you with enough power to perform your daily commute. The issue, however, comes when your travels are beyond your daily commute. For that, enter Level 2.

Level 2:
Level 2 charging is described as using at least a 240V 15A circuit. And it is that last sentence that starts the confusion for just about everyone. Why? Let me ask you a question... What in your home uses a 240V 15A circuit? If you have an answer that isn't the word "nothing," you are probably in the less than 1% of the US homes that have anything using that. As it stands today, most homes that have 240V receptacles are for devices that are heavy in load, requiring 16A or more. Almost all of these circuits are dedicated, meaning that only one device connects to the circuit (but not always). In the US, there are 3 NEMA receptacles that are used for 240V power. They are: NEMA 6, NEMA 10, and NEMA 14.

NEMA 6 is a three-wire configuration that comes in four popular configurations:
  • NEMA 6-15 (very uncommon today)
  • NEMA 6-20 (common)
  • NEMA 6-30 (common)
  • NEMA 6-50 (uncommon in practice, but common for EV)
While the NEMA 6-15 does exist, most applications call for at least a NEMA 6-20. These circuits are commonly used with tools and heavy equipment (welders, compressors, etc). Most homes do not come with any NEMA 6 receptacles and are almost always installed later on. The interesting thing about these receptacles, however, is that they are the receptacle of choice for use by most EV manufacturers. Most universal (J1772) wall charger companies that use plugs use a NEMA 6 and, specifically, the NEMA 6-50. There are a few that use the NEMA 6-20 (16A plug version of the Chargepoint Home Wall Charger), but most are on the NEMA 6-50.

NEMA 10 is also a three-wire configuration. However, because the NEMA 10 is ungrounded, its use has mostly been retired. You can still find them in older homes, but they are mostly replaced these days. The NEMA 10 is found in two popular configurations
  • NEMA 10-30 (retired)
  • NEMA 10-50 (retired)
The NEMA 10-30 was primarily used for dryers in the home. The NEMA 10-50 was primarily used for electric ovens. While they do provide 240V and 30-50A, because of their ungrounded nature, use of one of these plugs would probably NOT work on your Tesla (I believe that the Tesla checks for grounding and will not charge if ungrounded).

NEMA 14 is a four-wire configuration that has replaced the use of NEMA 10 in the home today. They are found in two popular configurations:
  • NEMA 14-30
  • NEMA 14-50
Just as with the NEMA 10 that the NEMA 14 replaced, the NEMA 14-30 is primarily used for dryers and the NEMA 14-50 is primarily used for electric ranges. Most homes have at least one NEMA 14 receptacle somewhere in the home. The NEMA 14-50 is also very commonly used in RV parks and truck stops. Since it is common connector and most homes have at least one of them, it is likely the reason why Tesla uses it for Level 2 charging.

So, what does this all mean? The answer is actually quite simple. For your average commute, if you are using a common Level 2 source, you are going to replenish your car in as little as 2 hours. If you are completely dead, in as little as 8 hours. But, which one do you choose? After all, there are a bunch of common ones out there? The answer to that is simple too. What does your car recommend? Whatever that is, use that! There is a reason for this. Tesla recommends a NEMA 14-50. They recommend this because the cars' onboard charger, which is what does the actual charging of your car, is rated for 240V@40A input and the universal mobile connector comes with a NEMA 14-50P plug. So, use that. Could you use a NEMA 14-30, NEMA 6-50, NEMA 6-30, etc.? You sure could (for a NEMA 6, you would need an adapter). But, you will only get 240V@40A on a NEMA 14-50 or a NEMA 6-50. The others will still provide 240V, but the amperage will be less than 40 and require more time to charge, hence the "as little as" part above.

Wall Chargers:
So what about wall chargers? In addition to aesthetics, wall chargers are more convenient to use. With the exception of a few chargers that are plug based, most are directly wired to an electrical circuit. There are a few key things to note. Not all wall chargers provide the same output current. For example, the Chargepoint Home system comes in a 16A version. The Turbo Cord is also 16A. On average, most wall chargers provide anywhere from 30-40A. Considering that almost all of the generic ones are under $500 and provide around 30A, they are good alternatives and are priced fairly well.

Tesla Wall Chargers:

In addition to generic wall chargers, Tesla also makes one as well. In general, I only recommend the Tesla wall chargers in one of two situations:

1. You are committed to Tesla as an EV company and have no plans of using other brands of cars.
2. You have a need for more than 40A charging (i.e. dual charger vehicle).

Outside of those situations, I would stick to getting a plug (NEMA 14-50 or NEMA 6-50) or purchase a generic charger that provides 30 or more amps. The Tesla Wall Charger does allow for you to specify the output based upon what type of circuit you have. So, it is possible to limit a Tesla Wall Charger to any amperage you wish (up to 80A max).

Dual Charging and the Need For It:
Finally, there is dual charging. So, what is it exactly? Dual charging is a concept in which your Tesla is equipped with 2 x 240V@40A chargers internally. This second charger is what permits you the ability to Level 2 charge your vehicle up to 80A. Now, there are a couple of things to note. First, we are not sure if the M3 supports this or not. Second, and probably more important, this is a bit overkill for most situations. Now, that isn't to say that your situation doesn't have a need for it. Rather, for most people, you wouldn't. Here is a real world exception that I run into, on occasion. On some days, I end up doing a 16-18 hour day in which I have driven around 200 mi. In this type of situation, if I did this often or back to back, there is a good chance that a normal Level 2 charge would not completely fill the car by the time I needed to head out the next day. In a case like that, a dual charging unit would be beneficial.
 
#33 ·
Wall Chargers:
So what about wall chargers? In addition to aesthetics, wall chargers are more convenient to use. With the exception of a few chargers that are plug based, most are directly wired to an electrical circuit. There are a few key things to note. Not all wall chargers provide the same output current. For example, the Chargepoint Home system comes in a 16A version. The Turbo Cord is also 16A. On average, most wall chargers provide anywhere from 30-40A. Considering that almost all of the generic ones are under $500 and provide around 30A, they are good alternatives and are priced fairly well.

Tesla Wall Chargers:

In addition to generic wall chargers, Tesla also makes one as well. In general, I only recommend the Tesla wall chargers in one of two situations:

1. You are committed to Tesla as an EV company and have no plans of using other brands of cars.
2. You have a need for more than 40A charging (i.e. dual charger vehicle).

Outside of those situations, I would stick to getting a plug (NEMA 14-50 or NEMA 6-50) or purchase a generic charger that provides 30 or more amps. The Tesla Wall Charger does allow for you to specify the output based upon what type of circuit you have. So, it is possible to limit a Tesla Wall Charger to any amperage you wish (up to 80A max).

fantastic summary, thanks!
so what would be the benefit of using a 3rd party wall charger vs the stock mobile connector? besides the ability to keep the mobile connector in the trunk and sounds like a 3rd party wall charger will be less than it's $650 price.
 
#31 ·
From what I understand, another reason someone may need dual chargers is for 'destination' charging. I read that a lot of these offer 80 amp a/c charging (a couple hotels near me do). So if you are road tripping -but- away from the Supercharger network, and you get in to the destination late with an early morning departure, dual charging may be necessary to charge enough to get to the next charging station.
 
#32 ·
I have another question for people who already have a Model S or X. Is there a problem of overcrowding at Superchargers currently?

A long road trip is feasible if you can just pull up to a Supercharger, charge for 30 minutes and keep going for another 3-4 hours. A road trip becomes enormously longer if you have to pull up, see Superchargers already in use. Have to wait by the car or check in periodically until one gets free and then use the Supercharger. What was a 30 minute break now becomes a 1 hour ordeal - every 200 miles.

So if you have Supercharger access, but can't effectively use a Supercharger unless you are willing to wait an hour for every three that you drive, you really can't use a Tesla for longer road trips. All of that may be fine. It just suggests that you use your Tesla for the 85% of driving that you do within 100 miles of your home - and then use an ICE for the longer road trips.

Then again, I don't currently own a Tesla, so perhaps I am overstating this parade of horribles. Would anybody with greater insight and experience on this please clear me up?
 
#35 ·
I have another question for people who already have a Model S or X. Is there a problem of overcrowding at Superchargers currently?

A long road trip is feasible if you can just pull up to a Supercharger, charge for 30 minutes and keep going for another 3-4 hours. A road trip becomes enormously longer if you have to pull up, see Superchargers already in use. Have to wait by the car or check in periodically until one gets free and then use the Supercharger. What was a 30 minute break now becomes a 1 hour ordeal - every 200 miles.

So if you have Supercharger access, but can't effectively use a Supercharger unless you are willing to wait an hour for every three that you drive, you really can't use a Tesla for longer road trips. All of that may be fine. It just suggests that you use your Tesla for the 85% of driving that you do within 100 miles of your home - and then use an ICE for the longer road trips.

Then again, I don't currently own a Tesla, so perhaps I am overstating this parade of horribles. Would anybody with greater insight and experience on this please clear me up?
I own a 2016 KIA Soul EV+. As part of my plans for long distance driving, I have enrolled in Blink, Plugshare, and Chargepoint. Each of these provides an on-line map of charging locations that may be used by EVs other than Tesla and also by Tesla because of their adapters, including one for the DC fast charger, CHaDaMo, the system used by Japanese and European EVs.

Including in the on-line maps are the Tesla Superchargers locations and real-time information about availability.

Before the purchase or our Soul, I spent a lot of time studying the various networks, including one that is often but not always free-Aerovonment (sp?).

In addition, I have scouted the locations in our ICE to determine the accuracy of the maps. My conclusion: Tesla provides the best vehicle for long-distance driving because of its range and almost universal capacity to connect to charging stations, both theirs and others.

This is a long answer to the question of accessibility: in short, by using the available maps through a phone or through your on board GPS, an owner of a Tesla who spends a little prep time for a long distance trip should greatly reduce range anxiety and unduly long stops at charging locations.
I have another question for people who already have a Model S or X. Is there a problem of overcrowding at Superchargers currently?

A long road trip is feasible if you can just pull up to a Supercharger, charge for 30 minutes and keep going for another 3-4 hours. A road trip becomes enormously longer if you have to pull up, see Superchargers already in use. Have to wait by the car or check in periodically until one gets free and then use the Supercharger. What was a 30 minute break now becomes a 1 hour ordeal - every 200 miles.

So if you have Supercharger access, but can't effectively use a Supercharger unless you are willing to wait an hour for every three that you drive, you really can't use a Tesla for longer road trips. All of that may be fine. It just suggests that you use your Tesla for the 85% of driving that you do within 100 miles of your home - and then use an ICE for the longer road trips.

Then again, I don't currently own a Tesla, so perhaps I am overstating this parade of horribles. Would anybody with greater insight and experience on this please clear me up?
 
#40 ·
All,
So I've got a Supercharger question....of sorts. My commute is 90 miles one way, or 180 miles round trip. I'm counting on the M3 to be ATLEAST a minimum of Elons quoted 215 miles on a charge....hopefully closer to 250 (for buffer)! I am ecstatic that I have a Supercharger facility locally in town about 20 minutes from my house, though in the 'opposite' direction of my commute. There is also a Supercharger at the other end of my one way commute, though again in the 'opposite' direction of my commute and about 30-40 minutes 'out of the way' so an hour round trip to use that one.
My question is how feasible would it be to have the recommended 90% charge(as I keep reading 100% is not recommended), leave from home and do the 180 miles ROUND trip on that 'single' charge and make it back home....pull into my garage and plug in? Without having to push my new M3 home......
OR......drive the extra 20 minutes/approx 20 miles PAST my house on my return commute and hit the local Supercharger to charge up? And how long would that take to recharge? I know it may not be PC to do that because Tesla from what I've read has sent out letters to some S owners who are using the Superchargers and not necessarily doing long road trips....and sacked them to 'cease and desist' so to speak.
So my other question in my slew of questions is "What is considered a 'Road Trip' " as far as Tesla is concerned (S owners please chime in if you have experience with this) to allow proper use of the Supercharger Stations?

Looking forward to your advice and responses.

Ski
 
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