Supercharging (Model 3)> Free or Pay?

Is the new pay per use system fair?

  • Yes

    Votes: 82 81.2%
  • No

    Votes: 1 1.0%
  • I would prefer to have free for life for x$

    Votes: 14 13.9%
  • I won't use Superchargers much

    Votes: 4 4.0%

  • Total voters
    101

TrevP

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#22
Pardon my ignorance but when you say dual chargers are there two different charge ports on the vehicle?

Dan
No, Teslas once have one charge port connector hidden in the left side tail light housing. Nissan LEAFS , if equipped with fast DC have 2 connectors, one for J1772 and the other is a CHAdeMO connector. Some other other cars like the BMW i3 use CCS which is a J1772 connector with 2 extra ports on the bottom that can supply more than 40 amps.

The dual chargers we mention are 2 electronic boxes located under the rear seat that can accept up to 80 Amps of AC to charge the battery.

Superchargers are DC so they shunt directly into the battery and bypass the chargers entirely.

Sorry if it sounds confusing, I know EV charging is rather new to a lot of people, but I explain a lot more in my next video.
 

teslaliving

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#23
Pardon my ignorance but when you say dual chargers are there two different charge ports on the vehicle?

Dan
No. There's one charge port. There is either one or two chargers inside the car that convert AC to DC for charging purposes. Chargers have a limit of how many amps they can handle. My Model S has two 40A chargers for a max of 80A. The model C can have up to two 36A chargers for up to 72A charging.
 

Reggie

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#25
Got it. Thanks guys.

Don't have all these fancy option on my Volt. ;)

Dan
It's a big confusing at first, but that is what we are all here for... to help one another. The biggest thing to keep in mind when talking chargers as it relates to EV's (Volt included) is that the charger isn't something that is external to the car. Rather, it's a device that's internal to the car. One thing, for me, that would not make a lot of sense is if the M3 does not have the ability to accept the full 80A from the wall connector. I've actually wondered if Tesla was going to include a single 80A charger, a single 40A, or offer duals. I think that by them not offering a 80A option, it will cause some confusion with wall charger purchases. Sure, you can configure the wall charger to any amperage really (up to 80A), but if I configure one for 80A and I can only get 40A for it, that's a lot of extra installation that I have paid for that I could never take advantage of.
 
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#26
Home charging doesn't need the big amperage as you will almost always be topping off every night and you have several hours so a "normal" 240v 40 amp circuit is fine.

It is at the Superchargers where you want the highest charging as you want to fill up fast and get back on the road.
 

TrevP

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#27
Home charging doesn't need the big amperage as you will almost always be topping off every night and you have several hours so a "normal" 240v 40 amp circuit is fine.

It is at the Superchargers where you want the highest charging as you want to fill up fast and get back on the road.

Exactly. People are under the impression that daily driving will drain the Tesla battery to a point that they will need 12 hours or so to recharge it and that is simply not true.

It's a behavioural change. With a gas car we typically fill the tank and drive until it's almost empty then fill it up.

A Tesla should be treated just like your cell phone. You drive it normally doing your thing during your normal day and plug in it overnight each day.

Every morning you wake to a full charge. It's not complicated and you very quickly adapt and do it instinctively.
 

Dan Detweiler

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#28
Being a Volt driver currently, I get the whole nightly topping off thing. Just wondered if that was excessively bad for the battery. Speaking of nightly topping off, do you guys fill to 100% every night or do you limit to 90 or so?

Dan
 

Tim

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#29
Currently, I own a 2016 KIA Soul EV+ The recommendation is to only charge to around 80% the driver intends to use the car around town for commuting. According the KIA, charging the Soul to 100% should be done only occasionally or when the driver intends on taking a long trip.
 

Reggie

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#30
To be accurate, there is no such thing as a normal 240V 40A circuit. Nor is something like that small. Much of the confusion here comes from, like a few of you said, the thinking of ICE vehicle driving behavior (full--> dead --> back to full) as well as there being no standard in the EV industry. Rather than trying to understand "normal" or circuits, I like to break things down into what the industry uses and what is common. This way, you can understand your actual needs. To preface, these is for US-based power. These are different elsewhere:

Battery Size: 60 kWh
I'm fully expecting the battery in the M3 to be 60kWh. There is a chance that it could be more, or less, but we'll use 60kWh for the sake of discussion since the Bolt is using a 60kWh battery, so it makes understanding this a bit easier.

Average Commute: 50 miles (or ~15 kWh)
Now, some people's averages are more, some are less, but considering that the research that GM did a few years ago leaned towards the average being 40-50 miles and used that for the Volt, it makes things easy.

EV Charging Recommendation: Every day
Unlike ICE cars which are driven from a full tank to empty and then back to full, EV's are designed to be charged every day. This is a change in behavior and change in habit. So, charging requirements are based on what you consume every day, not what it takes to go from dead to full, which will not be normal behavior.

Power: W=VA
When talking power, it is also important to know the equation that creates it. Power, measured in Watts, is the product of Electrical Potential, measured in Volts multiplied by the amount of current, measured in Amps.

Circuit Safety: 80%
When you are dealing with circuits and, specifically, fuses and circuit breakers, it is important to note that many of them are only rated for 80% continuous load. While electrical codes do allow for 100% rated circuits, there are conditions that have to be met for this to actually happen (wiring as well as environmental) and you will usually only find 100% circuits in newer builds. Thus, under most circumstances, a 15A circuit, for example, will only provide 12A of continuous load.

NEMA Receptacles:
The National Electrical Manufacturers Association (NEMA) is a company that sets the standards for AC plugs and receptacles in the United States. NEMA plugs have a type (the first number) and a current rating (the second number). The standard receptacle in the US is the NEMA 5-15R. NEMA 5 is what denotes the 2 vertical blades with the ground plug, 15 is the current rating (15A), and the "R" signifies whether it's a plug or a receptacle (if a plug, it would be 15P). So, a NEMA 5-15P plugs into a NEMA 5-15R.

Now that we have set the stage, let's talk about power. In the EV world, there are two types of power in the home: Level 1 and Level 2.

Level 1:
Level 1 charging is described as using a standard 110V 15A circuit. These types of circuits use (typically) a NEMA 5-15R in the home (the standard wall socket). This receptacle can usually provide a maximum of 12A to the car. If there is nothing else on the circuit but the car, you are able to supply a maximum power of 1,320W (1.32kW) to the car. At that rate, it would take you approximately 46 hours to fully charge your EV. However, let's take the average commute into consideration. If all you did was your average commute, it would take approximately 11 1/2 hours to charge. If you are home by 6:00p and do not leave again until 7:00a the next morning, then Level 1 charging would provide you with enough power to perform your daily commute. The issue, however, comes when your travels are beyond your daily commute. For that, enter Level 2.

Level 2:
Level 2 charging is described as using at least a 240V 15A circuit. And it is that last sentence that starts the confusion for just about everyone. Why? Let me ask you a question... What in your home uses a 240V 15A circuit? If you have an answer that isn't the word "nothing," you are probably in the less than 1% of the US homes that have anything using that. As it stands today, most homes that have 240V receptacles are for devices that are heavy in load, requiring 16A or more. Almost all of these circuits are dedicated, meaning that only one device connects to the circuit (but not always). In the US, there are 3 NEMA receptacles that are used for 240V power. They are: NEMA 6, NEMA 10, and NEMA 14.

NEMA 6 is a three-wire configuration that comes in four popular configurations:
  • NEMA 6-15 (very uncommon today)
  • NEMA 6-20 (common)
  • NEMA 6-30 (common)
  • NEMA 6-50 (uncommon in practice, but common for EV)
While the NEMA 6-15 does exist, most applications call for at least a NEMA 6-20. These circuits are commonly used with tools and heavy equipment (welders, compressors, etc). Most homes do not come with any NEMA 6 receptacles and are almost always installed later on. The interesting thing about these receptacles, however, is that they are the receptacle of choice for use by most EV manufacturers. Most universal (J1772) wall charger companies that use plugs use a NEMA 6 and, specifically, the NEMA 6-50. There are a few that use the NEMA 6-20 (16A plug version of the Chargepoint Home Wall Charger), but most are on the NEMA 6-50.

NEMA 10 is also a three-wire configuration. However, because the NEMA 10 is ungrounded, its use has mostly been retired. You can still find them in older homes, but they are mostly replaced these days. The NEMA 10 is found in two popular configurations
  • NEMA 10-30 (retired)
  • NEMA 10-50 (retired)
The NEMA 10-30 was primarily used for dryers in the home. The NEMA 10-50 was primarily used for electric ovens. While they do provide 240V and 30-50A, because of their ungrounded nature, use of one of these plugs would probably NOT work on your Tesla (I believe that the Tesla checks for grounding and will not charge if ungrounded).

NEMA 14 is a four-wire configuration that has replaced the use of NEMA 10 in the home today. They are found in two popular configurations:
  • NEMA 14-30
  • NEMA 14-50
Just as with the NEMA 10 that the NEMA 14 replaced, the NEMA 14-30 is primarily used for dryers and the NEMA 14-50 is primarily used for electric ranges. Most homes have at least one NEMA 14 receptacle somewhere in the home. The NEMA 14-50 is also very commonly used in RV parks and truck stops. Since it is common connector and most homes have at least one of them, it is likely the reason why Tesla uses it for Level 2 charging.

So, what does this all mean? The answer is actually quite simple. For your average commute, if you are using a common Level 2 source, you are going to replenish your car in as little as 2 hours. If you are completely dead, in as little as 8 hours. But, which one do you choose? After all, there are a bunch of common ones out there? The answer to that is simple too. What does your car recommend? Whatever that is, use that! There is a reason for this. Tesla recommends a NEMA 14-50. They recommend this because the cars' onboard charger, which is what does the actual charging of your car, is rated for 240V@40A input and the universal mobile connector comes with a NEMA 14-50P plug. So, use that. Could you use a NEMA 14-30, NEMA 6-50, NEMA 6-30, etc.? You sure could (for a NEMA 6, you would need an adapter). But, you will only get 240V@40A on a NEMA 14-50 or a NEMA 6-50. The others will still provide 240V, but the amperage will be less than 40 and require more time to charge, hence the "as little as" part above.

Wall Chargers:
So what about wall chargers? In addition to aesthetics, wall chargers are more convenient to use. With the exception of a few chargers that are plug based, most are directly wired to an electrical circuit. There are a few key things to note. Not all wall chargers provide the same output current. For example, the Chargepoint Home system comes in a 16A version. The Turbo Cord is also 16A. On average, most wall chargers provide anywhere from 30-40A. Considering that almost all of the generic ones are under $500 and provide around 30A, they are good alternatives and are priced fairly well.

Tesla Wall Chargers:

In addition to generic wall chargers, Tesla also makes one as well. In general, I only recommend the Tesla wall chargers in one of two situations:

1. You are committed to Tesla as an EV company and have no plans of using other brands of cars.
2. You have a need for more than 40A charging (i.e. dual charger vehicle).

Outside of those situations, I would stick to getting a plug (NEMA 14-50 or NEMA 6-50) or purchase a generic charger that provides 30 or more amps. The Tesla Wall Charger does allow for you to specify the output based upon what type of circuit you have. So, it is possible to limit a Tesla Wall Charger to any amperage you wish (up to 80A max).

Dual Charging and the Need For It:
Finally, there is dual charging. So, what is it exactly? Dual charging is a concept in which your Tesla is equipped with 2 x 240V@40A chargers internally. This second charger is what permits you the ability to Level 2 charge your vehicle up to 80A. Now, there are a couple of things to note. First, we are not sure if the M3 supports this or not. Second, and probably more important, this is a bit overkill for most situations. Now, that isn't to say that your situation doesn't have a need for it. Rather, for most people, you wouldn't. Here is a real world exception that I run into, on occasion. On some days, I end up doing a 16-18 hour day in which I have driven around 200 mi. In this type of situation, if I did this often or back to back, there is a good chance that a normal Level 2 charge would not completely fill the car by the time I needed to head out the next day. In a case like that, a dual charging unit would be beneficial.
 
Last edited:

thecatdad

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#31
From what I understand, another reason someone may need dual chargers is for 'destination' charging. I read that a lot of these offer 80 amp a/c charging (a couple hotels near me do). So if you are road tripping -but- away from the Supercharger network, and you get in to the destination late with an early morning departure, dual charging may be necessary to charge enough to get to the next charging station.
 
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#32
I have another question for people who already have a Model S or X. Is there a problem of overcrowding at Superchargers currently?

A long road trip is feasible if you can just pull up to a Supercharger, charge for 30 minutes and keep going for another 3-4 hours. A road trip becomes enormously longer if you have to pull up, see Superchargers already in use. Have to wait by the car or check in periodically until one gets free and then use the Supercharger. What was a 30 minute break now becomes a 1 hour ordeal - every 200 miles.

So if you have Supercharger access, but can't effectively use a Supercharger unless you are willing to wait an hour for every three that you drive, you really can't use a Tesla for longer road trips. All of that may be fine. It just suggests that you use your Tesla for the 85% of driving that you do within 100 miles of your home - and then use an ICE for the longer road trips.

Then again, I don't currently own a Tesla, so perhaps I am overstating this parade of horribles. Would anybody with greater insight and experience on this please clear me up?
 

MelindaV

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#33
Wall Chargers:
So what about wall chargers? In addition to aesthetics, wall chargers are more convenient to use. With the exception of a few chargers that are plug based, most are directly wired to an electrical circuit. There are a few key things to note. Not all wall chargers provide the same output current. For example, the Chargepoint Home system comes in a 16A version. The Turbo Cord is also 16A. On average, most wall chargers provide anywhere from 30-40A. Considering that almost all of the generic ones are under $500 and provide around 30A, they are good alternatives and are priced fairly well.

Tesla Wall Chargers:

In addition to generic wall chargers, Tesla also makes one as well. In general, I only recommend the Tesla wall chargers in one of two situations:

1. You are committed to Tesla as an EV company and have no plans of using other brands of cars.
2. You have a need for more than 40A charging (i.e. dual charger vehicle).

Outside of those situations, I would stick to getting a plug (NEMA 14-50 or NEMA 6-50) or purchase a generic charger that provides 30 or more amps. The Tesla Wall Charger does allow for you to specify the output based upon what type of circuit you have. So, it is possible to limit a Tesla Wall Charger to any amperage you wish (up to 80A max).

fantastic summary, thanks!
so what would be the benefit of using a 3rd party wall charger vs the stock mobile connector? besides the ability to keep the mobile connector in the trunk and sounds like a 3rd party wall charger will be less than it's $650 price.
 

Reggie

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#34
fantastic summary, thanks!
so what would be the benefit of using a 3rd party wall charger vs the stock mobile connector? besides the ability to keep the mobile connector in the trunk and sounds like a 3rd party wall charger will be less than it's $650 price.
That would be the benefit (convenience and cost). You'd be able to leave the mobile connector in the car and just plugin using your wall charger. Also, many 3rd party wall chargers have "smart" features such as the ability to send reminders that your car isn't plugged in, or control the charging rate being provided. Much of these features are built into the Tesla, but not every EV has those features. Also, if you have EV's from multiple car manufacturers, they don't all use the same electrical plugs, so having a wall charger eliminates this issue.
 

Tim

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#35
I have another question for people who already have a Model S or X. Is there a problem of overcrowding at Superchargers currently?

A long road trip is feasible if you can just pull up to a Supercharger, charge for 30 minutes and keep going for another 3-4 hours. A road trip becomes enormously longer if you have to pull up, see Superchargers already in use. Have to wait by the car or check in periodically until one gets free and then use the Supercharger. What was a 30 minute break now becomes a 1 hour ordeal - every 200 miles.

So if you have Supercharger access, but can't effectively use a Supercharger unless you are willing to wait an hour for every three that you drive, you really can't use a Tesla for longer road trips. All of that may be fine. It just suggests that you use your Tesla for the 85% of driving that you do within 100 miles of your home - and then use an ICE for the longer road trips.

Then again, I don't currently own a Tesla, so perhaps I am overstating this parade of horribles. Would anybody with greater insight and experience on this please clear me up?
I own a 2016 KIA Soul EV+. As part of my plans for long distance driving, I have enrolled in Blink, Plugshare, and Chargepoint. Each of these provides an on-line map of charging locations that may be used by EVs other than Tesla and also by Tesla because of their adapters, including one for the DC fast charger, CHaDaMo, the system used by Japanese and European EVs.

Including in the on-line maps are the Tesla Superchargers locations and real-time information about availability.

Before the purchase or our Soul, I spent a lot of time studying the various networks, including one that is often but not always free—Aerovonment (sp?).

In addition, I have scouted the locations in our ICE to determine the accuracy of the maps. My conclusion: Tesla provides the best vehicle for long-distance driving because of its range and almost universal capacity to connect to charging stations, both theirs and others.

This is a long answer to the question of accessibility: in short, by using the available maps through a phone or through your on board GPS, an owner of a Tesla who spends a little prep time for a long distance trip should greatly reduce range anxiety and unduly long stops at charging locations.
I have another question for people who already have a Model S or X. Is there a problem of overcrowding at Superchargers currently?

A long road trip is feasible if you can just pull up to a Supercharger, charge for 30 minutes and keep going for another 3-4 hours. A road trip becomes enormously longer if you have to pull up, see Superchargers already in use. Have to wait by the car or check in periodically until one gets free and then use the Supercharger. What was a 30 minute break now becomes a 1 hour ordeal - every 200 miles.

So if you have Supercharger access, but can't effectively use a Supercharger unless you are willing to wait an hour for every three that you drive, you really can't use a Tesla for longer road trips. All of that may be fine. It just suggests that you use your Tesla for the 85% of driving that you do within 100 miles of your home - and then use an ICE for the longer road trips.

Then again, I don't currently own a Tesla, so perhaps I am overstating this parade of horribles. Would anybody with greater insight and experience on this please clear me up?
 

Tim

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#36
I have another question for people who already have a Model S or X. Is there a problem of overcrowding at Superchargers currently?

A long road trip is feasible if you can just pull up to a Supercharger, charge for 30 minutes and keep going for another 3-4 hours. A road trip becomes enormously longer if you have to pull up, see Superchargers already in use. Have to wait by the car or check in periodically until one gets free and then use the Supercharger. What was a 30 minute break now becomes a 1 hour ordeal - every 200 miles.

So if you have Supercharger access, but can't effectively use a Supercharger unless you are willing to wait an hour for every three that you drive, you really can't use a Tesla for longer road trips. All of that may be fine. It just suggests that you use your Tesla for the 85% of driving that you do within 100 miles of your home - and then use an ICE for the longer road trips.

Then again, I don't currently own a Tesla, so perhaps I am overstating this parade of horribles. Would anybody with greater insight and experience on this please clear me up?
 

MelindaV

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#38
Pardon my ignorance but when you say dual chargers are there two different charge ports on the vehicle?

Dan
Just a single port, but the chargers are 40A, so if using an 80A power source you could only get all 80A with the dual chargers. The single would only get you the 40A of the 80A.
(At least based on the current models)
 

teslaliving

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#39
I have another question for people who already have a Model S or X. Is there a problem of overcrowding at Superchargers currently?

A long road trip is feasible if you can just pull up to a Supercharger, charge for 30 minutes and keep going for another 3-4 hours. A road trip becomes enormously longer if you have to pull up, see Superchargers already in use. Have to wait by the car or check in periodically until one gets free and then use the Supercharger. What was a 30 minute break now becomes a 1 hour ordeal - every 200 miles.

So if you have Supercharger access, but can't effectively use a Supercharger unless you are willing to wait an hour for every three that you drive, you really can't use a Tesla for longer road trips. All of that may be fine. It just suggests that you use your Tesla for the 85% of driving that you do within 100 miles of your home - and then use an ICE for the longer road trips.

Then again, I don't currently own a Tesla, so perhaps I am overstating this parade of horribles. Would anybody with greater insight and experience on this please clear me up?
Depends where you live. On the west coast near cities on holiday weekends, yes there's a crowding issue. Tesla has added a Valet to some of those locations to help and is adding more stalls/chargers.

On the East Cost I rarely see anyone when I'm charging and if I do its only one or two. I've done dozens of road trips at this point.

The lines are mostly overstated/over reported to cause FUD.

All that being said, stopping to charge for 30 minutes every 2 hours can add a lot of time to a road trip and you need to keep that in mind.
 

Skione65

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#40
All,
So I've got a Supercharger question....of sorts. My commute is 90 miles one way, or 180 miles round trip. I'm counting on the M3 to be ATLEAST a minimum of Elons quoted 215 miles on a charge....hopefully closer to 250 (for buffer)! I am ecstatic that I have a Supercharger facility locally in town about 20 minutes from my house, though in the 'opposite' direction of my commute. There is also a Supercharger at the other end of my one way commute, though again in the 'opposite' direction of my commute and about 30-40 minutes 'out of the way' so an hour round trip to use that one.
My question is how feasible would it be to have the recommended 90% charge(as I keep reading 100% is not recommended), leave from home and do the 180 miles ROUND trip on that 'single' charge and make it back home....pull into my garage and plug in? Without having to push my new M3 home......
OR......drive the extra 20 minutes/approx 20 miles PAST my house on my return commute and hit the local Supercharger to charge up? And how long would that take to recharge? I know it may not be PC to do that because Tesla from what I've read has sent out letters to some S owners who are using the Superchargers and not necessarily doing long road trips....and sacked them to 'cease and desist' so to speak.
So my other question in my slew of questions is "What is considered a 'Road Trip' " as far as Tesla is concerned (S owners please chime in if you have experience with this) to allow proper use of the Supercharger Stations?

Looking forward to your advice and responses.

Ski