Supercapacitators revolutionizing battery technology!

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SwaggerWagon

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#21
At current state, this is the kind of application that capacitors - super or otherwise :rolleyes: - would be useful for:




It would be interesting though, if through advances they could slow the discharging. Here's what I'm thinking (note my great drawing skills...):
cap-2fbattery-combo-jpg.2841



With something like this, you could pull up to a SC, get a quick 80mi charge in less time than it takes to plug in, and if you need more than that, hang around for 15min to get your battery charged up. The car's cap would then somehow have to discharge slowly enough to be useable for the battery. Generally this involves running through resistors, which also creates lots of heat and isn't very efficient, which isn't great for a car... but with some improvements in the tech I could see it happening.
 

Badback

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#22
Check this out if range expansion is on your wish list!!! And the article clearly hints Elon is already onto this... :)
Maybe not for the first years of Model ≡ production yet definitely a potential boost to LT EV adoption and penetration worldwide!

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencet...ial-make-batteries-10-000-times-powerful.html
Glaring inaccuracies in this article:

"Electric cars are currently limited to distances of around 54 miles"
"allowing them to recharge in seconds instead of the current six to eight hour charge time."


 

Topher

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#23
Glaring inaccuracies in this article:

"Electric cars are currently limited to distances of around 54 miles"
"allowing them to recharge in seconds instead of the current six to eight hour charge time."
Anyone want to run the numbers on how big the power cable would need to be to charge 100 kWh in seconds?!

Thank you kindly.
 

SwaggerWagon

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#24
Anyone want to run the numbers on how big the power cable would need to be to charge 100 kWh in seconds?!

Thank you kindly.
Wouldn't have to be huge, depending on design. Higher voltage/lower amperage generally doesn't need as big of cabling - just needs better insulation. The really high voltage lines you see up on towers isn't that thick, but has cables filled with dielectric oil, or SF6 gas - little more high-tech in the insulation than just a silicone/paper jacket.

The capacitors we have on some of the equipment I work on discharge 22kv @ 1000 in 4uSec, charge in about 1mS, and the cabling is no thicker than 6awg. It's specially made for high-pulse-power electronics though. It's amazing what smart application of technology can achieve.
 

SwaggerWagon

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#26
At current state, this is the kind of application that capacitors - super or otherwise :rolleyes: - would be useful for:




It would be interesting though, if through advances they could slow the discharging. Here's what I'm thinking (note my great drawing skills...): View attachment 2841


With something like this, you could pull up to a SC, get a quick 80mi charge in less time than it takes to plug in, and if you need more than that, hang around for 15min to get your battery charged up. The car's cap would then somehow have to discharge slowly enough to be useable for the battery. Generally this involves running through resistors, which also creates lots of heat and isn't very efficient, which isn't great for a car... but with some improvements in the tech I could see it happening.

Now that V3 supercharging is out, I wanted to come back to this to see how it compared. Obviously the capacitor's were just theoretical, and only there since super-capacitors came up in the post... but there is indeed a 1MW battery to support the V3SC, and there is water cooling (it would be nice if it could heat as well for us living in America's Siberia (i.e., the Midwest)).

Interesting to note that the cable is getting thinner as well - not surprisingly with the addition of the cooling. It might also be higher voltage and lower current than V2 supercharging, haven't seen actual specs on that. My 480v/250A was just a guess based on normal electrical standards (480V is pretty standard as are 250A breaker panels) and if you multiply them out, Ohms law calls that 120kW which is the spec for V2 supercharging. For V3 it's 250kW, so if you stick with the 250A breakers, (250,000W / 250A = 1,000V) the new superchargers are going to be at 1kV @ 250A... or maybe they'll go to 2kV @ 125A, which could also explain the thinner cables.

No need to be afraid of handling a cable with 1,000V in it. The electricity isn't there until the cable is plugged in, the car and the station have successfully handshaked, they've tested the resistance of the connection and made sure it's good, etc, then it'll turn on and let the juice flow. We've been using electricity for over one hundred years, we know how to make it safe. Just because it's new to cars doesn't mean it's new overall and something we don't understand. Ever had an x-ray at a dentist of doctor office? That x-ray tube that's right by your head has anywhere from 40kV to 150kV going to it and you're perfectly safe.
 

garsh

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#27
If you find extra space within your car for a supercapacitor, you could instead use that space to store batteries instead, and it would add 20 times as much range as the supercapacitor would.
And now Elon has weighed in on the subject.

"I think, with the advent of high-energy Lithium Ion batteries, a capacitor is not the right path."

 

Feathermerchant

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#28
RE post above about charging in a few minutes. Capacitor or battery does not matter here.
If we want to charge 100 kWh in one hour, we need 100 kW (for reference, the typical home A/C unit or water heater requires 5 kW to operate)
To charge 100 kWh in 30 minutes we need 200 kW
To charge 100 kWh in 5 minutes we need 1200 kW (1.2 MW)
To charge 100 kWh in 1 minute we need 6,000 kW (6 MW)

At 800 V 1200 kW is 1,500 Amps (Really large wire)
 

TomT

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#29
Yep, many things already have super capacitors in them for low drain, long term storage... Heck, my weather station has one to power it if there is a long term interruption of solar capability... They have much better reliability and life than a battery in such applications.

Did you know that the Nissan Leaf has a supercapacitor? It's true!
 

SwaggerWagon

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#30
RE post above about charging in a few minutes. Capacitor or battery does not matter here.
If we want to charge 100 kWh in one hour, we need 100 kW (for reference, the typical home A/C unit or water heater requires 5 kW to operate)
To charge 100 kWh in 30 minutes we need 200 kW
To charge 100 kWh in 5 minutes we need 1200 kW (1.2 MW)
To charge 100 kWh in 1 minute we need 6,000 kW (6 MW)

At 800 V 1200 kW is 1,500 Amps (Really large wire)
Battery vs. capacitor does make some difference, due to heat dissipation, charge curve characteristics (very logarithmic for capacitors, not sure about batteries... you can tell it's non-linear but might be more linearithmic? ...did some quick Googling and that looks to be the case), but you're not wrong about the math.

However, the chance of them staying at 800v to achieve 1200kW is not realistic. They can bump up the charging voltage to 10kV @ 120 amps and keep the car at 800v for dishcarge to motors. It helps to think of voltage as pressure and amperage as flow. If you're filling a swimming pool with a garden hose or a pressure washer over the same amount of time it'll add up to the same volume of water, but the two will have very different characteristics. You just have to make sure you don't burst the pool, or in this case frag the battery or start a fire. Once the pool is full, if you don't change the plug it'll drain at the same speed whether you used the hose or the pressure washer to fill it.

I"m not a battery engineer, I don't know if we have tech available to charge a battery at 10kV currently (don't think we do) but that would make more sense then going to 1,500A. Who knows, maybe in the future they'll develop some sort of pulse charging that can delivery 1,500A over non-huge wires miliseconds at a burst, allowing 6MW charging but only at pulses a few microseconds at a time, meaning you can use normal sized wires, and would, spread over 5 minutes, get us that 100kWh RMS? It'll be interesting to see where it goes.
 

Feathermerchant

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#31
To your Voltage subject. You cannot exceed 4.2V per cell on a Lithium Ion battery or it will fail (smoke and flames). That is also the fully charged voltage. So NO you cannot charge an 800V battery using 10,000V without ruining it.
 

garsh

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#32
To your Voltage subject. You cannot exceed 4.2V per cell on a Lithium Ion battery or it will fail (smoke and flames). That is also the fully charged voltage. So NO you cannot charge an 800V battery using 10,000V without ruining it.
You just need to put 2,381 cells in series, and you're all set. :D