Munro day session on EVs

bwilson4web

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#1
Source: EV Conference - Revealing Secrets of Tesla Model 3, BMW i3 and Chevy Bolt Tickets, Fri, Jun 21, 2019 at 8:30 AM | Eventbrite

Calling all automotive engineers looking for objective technical information about today’s leading electric vehicles (EVs). Munro & Associates, world leaders in the Lean Design® methodology, teardown benchmarking and design optimization, is hosting an Electric Vehicle Technical Briefing on Friday, June 21 at its world headquarters in Auburn Hills, Mich. During the event, the Munro team will present an engineering comparison of four leading EVs: the Tesla Model 3; the BMW i3, the Chevy Bolt; and the Jaguar I-PACE.
. . .

I've got the interest and the funds but time could be a problem. Would there be anyone interested and available to attend this Auburn Hills event?

For me, it is 698 miles, 14 hours, 10 min, driving with 7 stops and overnight at a Marriott. I would have to bring wife and her dogs or arrange for a house sitter.

Bob Wilson
 

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#2
I’ve got my ticket and room reserved. If any interest in a conference report, PM me and we can do a deal.

Bob Wilson
 

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#3
Source: EV Conference - Revealing Secrets of Tesla Model 3, BMW i3 and Chevy Bolt

Calling all automotive engineers looking for objective technical information about today’s leading electric vehicles (EVs). Munro & Associates, world leaders in the Lean Design® methodology, teardown benchmarking and design optimization, is hosting an Electric Vehicle Technical Briefing on Friday, June 21 at its world headquarters in Auburn Hills, Mich. During the event, the Munro team will present an engineering comparison of four leading EVs: the Tesla Model 3; the BMW i3, the Chevy Bolt; and the Jaguar I-PACE.
The tour of the Munro Benchmarking Investigation, Innovation & Implementation Center will provide an Engineering deep dive of the most advanced electric vehicles and technologies in the market today. Munro will also provide an in-depth view into how you can analyze products and perform your own reengineering.

The main focus will be on the EV “Big 3” Motors, Batteries and Electronics; however, there will be a new technology review with insight into the engineering and designs of some of the other innovative vehicles on the road today. The Tesla 3 will be compared to the BMW i3 and the Chevy Bolt.

Unlike many “Power Point Conferences” the parts of all three of the vehicles will be laid out on tables and Munro “A Frames” with knowledgeable Munro Engineers to provide a detailed description of the key take-ways from each part of the car and answer questions.

For the Jaguar I-PACE, there will be a hoist review to discuss the I-PACE and its electric motor.

EXTRA! Munro has also invited an independent investigator from Tesloop who will share important aspects of EVs that are rarely discussed; life expectancy and maintenance of an EV. Tesloop has ALL the documentation on the durability of the Tesla product.

This is a must attend event for all EV Engineers!
$199 which includes:

  • An overview of: motors, batteries, and electronics the “EV Big 3”
  • A technology review with insight into the engineering and designs of some of the other innovative vehicles on the road today
  • A tour of Munro’s Benchmarking Investigation, Innovation & Implementation Center
  • The opportunity to participate in an engineering deep dive of today’s most advanced EVs and technologies
  • An in-depth view into how Munro analyzes products and performs reverse engineering.
Timing, Location & Agenda:
Friday, June 21st, 2019
Munro & Associates
1140 Centre Road Auburn Hills, MI 48326
8:30 to 9:00. Registration, Coffee & Donuts
9:00 to 9:15 Welcome and logistics
9:15 to 9:45 Who is Munro? How do we get our Numbers?
9:45 to 10:15 Battery Debrief
10:15 to 10:45 Electronics Debrief
10:45 to 11:15 Electric Motor Debrief
11:15 to 12:00 Long Range Tesla Data; Full data on Tesla vehicles some with 380,000 MILES! BTW No Maintenance Issues!!!
12:00 to 13:00 Lunch
13:00 to 15:30 Group Breakout, On-The-Floor, Around The Parts Review;
I- PACE Hoist Review, Side-By-Side Discussions At 5 Teardown Stations To Discuss All The Vehicle Components
15:30 to 16:30 Social Hour, Tours of Other Vehicles at Munro and Networking

If you have specific interest or questions, post them here and I'll take them with me to the conference.

Bob Wilson
 

bwilson4web

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#4
EXECUTIVE SUMMARY (V00.1)
  • Best $200 engineering conference ever - Munro and Associates shutdown their facility for a day and had at least 25 skilled engineers and technologist presenting, answering technical questions, and all of the tear-down cars and parts open for inspection and photos. Tesla does not sell an illustrated parts breakdown but Munro has one . . . with real parts. Counting the preparation, very skilled Munro staff, and facilities, it probably cost over $500k to produce. The only savings is Munro may have avoided funding staff trips to other conferences (or that might have been part of the plan.) Seat limited to ~100, raw revenue of $20,000 probably only covered the catering and swag. I would go again.
  • Focus on Munro consulting services - Munro and Associates has a very deep bench and expertise in manufacturing excellency that continues to grow. They preserve client data but the lessons learned becomes part of their skill set. A Munro consultancy time is pretty steep but well worth it in labor, parts, and quality. You don't have to hire an expensive experienced engineer because you can rent an exceptional engineering team from Munro. Caution, experience can be a double-edged sword (i.e., "You need a fuse box.") But at least their quiet departure doesn't become another 'Financial Times' hit piece over Tesla staff changes.
  • Attendees - What a great mix of engineers and technologists. Of course there were some who didn't really understand why they were sent (i.e., to get them OUT of the office.) Others trying to get the Cliff Notes for one of Munro's detailed, $70-100k, reports. My favorites were the 'good ole' boys' who came just to hang out with each other and swap war stories. Sad to say, I skipped the social hour because I had an experiment to finish and being retired, I'm not 'in their network.' I'll have more details about myself in this section.
  • Cannonball practice - The 787 711 mile 14:18 (hh:mm) trip up and 693 mile 15:30 return, validated my Tesla long distance driving model. It also revealed insights needed for even longer distance, affordable Tesla driving.
Feel free to post questions and I will maintain a change log in the first post with links to subsections.

Bob Wilson

Change log (YYYY/MM/DD):
2019/06/23 Baseline executive summary
2019/06/24 Updated "Cannonball practice" with metrics and route map
2019/06/30 Updated distance and times from GPS recorded data
 
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#5
Regarding your long distance drive, what should’ve been the minimum viable range to make your trip better, in your opinion?

Not sure if you can answer these questions... what’s the manufacturing year/month of the latest Model 3 that they’ve analyzed what has changed since prior tear downs? For instance, is there evidence of cost/efficiency improvements in welding & glue of the body assembly? Has Tesla added more sound dampening material? How much more could Tesla save per Model 3 if their manufacturing efficiency matched that of Toyota?

Thanks for volunteering your time and technical expertise!
 

bwilson4web

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#6
Best $200 engineering conference ever

Munro and Associates shutdown their facility for a day and had at least 25 skilled engineers and technologist presenting, answering technical questions, and all of the tear-down cars and parts open for inspection and photos. Tesla does not sell an illustrated parts breakdown but Munro has one . . . with real parts. Counting the preparation, very skilled Munro staff, and facilities, it probably cost over $500k to produce. The only savings is Munro may have avoided funding staff trips to other conferences (or that might have been part of the plan.) Seat limited to ~100, raw revenue of $20,000 probably only covered the catering and swag. I would go again.


My first photo was an attempt to get the URL for the speaker . . . it failed. Regardless, this is the synopsis:

EXTRA! Munro has also invited an independent investigator from Tesloop who will share important aspects of EVs that are rarely discussed; life expectancy and maintenance of an EV. Tesloop has ALL the documentation on the durability of the Tesla product.
These folks had a 16 year old who wanted a Tesla so they bought one and setup a shuttle service to and from Las Vegas that expanded to six Teslas. Then California sent a note that they could not use 'independent contract' drivers. Their drivers had to be employees so they closed it down.

They changed the business model to Tesla rental. Then Tesla changed the terms and conditions so 'Uber' and other commercial services could not use the SuperChargers . . . he confessed that he caused that change. He has a new scheme based on the $0.58/mi IRS rule but anticipates that rule also getting closed. I'm not so sure he has a good business model.

Oh BOY! Hands on TOYS!!!

Not a show for the non-technical or the "HOLD MY BEER! WATCH THIS!!" crowd.

How did Munro get a Tesla induction motor rotor?



Hands do get lubricants and stuff on them so you need paper towels.



The best illustrated parts breakdown is at Munro and associates:









They also have the BMW i3 BEV. I have the BMW i3-REx that has the engine:


Bob Wilson
 
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bwilson4web

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#7
Focus on Munro consulting services

Munro and Associates has a very deep bench and expertise in manufacturing excellency that continues to grow. They preserve client data but the lessons learned becomes part of their skill set. A Munro consultancy time is pretty steep but well worth it in labor, parts, and quality. You don't have to hire an expensive experienced engineer because you can rent an exceptional engineering team from Munro. Caution, experience can be a double-edged sword (i.e., "You need a fuse box.") But at least their quiet departure doesn't become another 'Financial Times' hit piece over staff changes.

Non-denominational, they have broad engineering expertise. Cars are just one subset. For example, this appears to be a pump and filter for a slurry with chunks. As the intake passed up, the solid matter falls into the inner cylinder to take a different path. My first guess is part of a waste water treatment plant.


This gives an example of the quality of engineering analysis found at Munro:





ATTENTION:
I have sent a note to Munro & Associates asking permission to post these photos of pages from their handout, examples of the quality of their work. Contact Munro to negotiate a hardcopy.







Sandy Munro spoke on Autoline After Hours about meeting Dr. Edward Demming when Sandy worked at Ford. Demming gave him some wise words that led Sandy to making "Munro and Associates." Yet during the formal program, Sandy didn't 'Lord' this over us. But like me, he is a true "Quality Warrior." I would pickup the bar bill to spend an evening with Sandy. I just didn't have the time for the social hour.

Munro and Associates have good collection of design-to-cost and program management tools. They even teach how to put together what we called in GE, a "War Room." This is great for those who recognize the need. But these classical tools can easily be abused which means the buyer MUST HAVE A CLUE. You can't buy the character and commitment needed to successfully use them.

Bob Wilson
 
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bwilson4web

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#8
Attendees

What a great mix of engineers and technologists. Of course there were some who didn't really understand why they were sent (i.e., to get them OUT of the office.) Others trying to get the Cliff Notes for one of Munro's detailed, $70-100k, reports. My favorites were the 'good ole' boys' who came just to hang out with each other and swap war stories. Sad to say, I skipped the social hour because I had an experiment to finish and being retired, I'm not 'in their network.' I'll have more details about myself in this section.


This guest speaker didn't show up with hardcopy of his presentation. Although I admire his goals, I have little confidence in his business practices. You should never build a business on screwing someone else and he is no friend to Tesla. I would need private time with him to discuss a better approach, a 'win-win.' Right now, he is 'I win and Tesla loses.'

The first attendee I tried to chat with mentioned getting a Hummer and 'cold effects.' These are common EV hostile opinions. So I mentioned rumors of an EV Hummer but suggested it would just be a Tahoe with boxy fendors, raised, and knobby tires. I didn't mention that pre-bankruptcy, GM required the word "hybrid" embedded in the paint scheme and killing an excellent CUV hybrid I got to test drive in the snow.

About the cold, I shared that when we had a cold snap in Dixie with temperatures down to 16F, I drove my 2003 Prius to Georgia and back. I found the decrease in MPG paralleled with the temperature defined, air density. I added that both our BMW i3-REx and Tesla have a pre-conditioning that keeps the battery at an optimum temperature. Our EVs are like small huts connected to the grid for power needed to maintain a friendly temperature. He seemed impressed when I shared that I drove 786.8 mi to the conference and only $24.92 in SuperCharger costs.

With the exception of the old guys who'd worked together in the past, the 'youngsters' were sensitive about talking with others. I sensed they were almost paranoid about what they worked on and afraid talk with strangers. There was very little user involvement so I recommend the following:
  • Tags should show 'nickname' and 'organization'
For example, this is mine:

I'm "Bob" but they listed me by the formal, "Robert." Also, there is nothing showing I'm "Retired" which means I'm safe to talk with. The other icons do nothing to introduce me to strangers, a problem at this event. Notice I'm in old school engineering dress, pocket pen and glasses. When I asked about parking, their mentioned bringing a coat and I though 'do they want me in a shirt, tie, and business dress?' So I showed up in my last Dilbert shirt and changed in the parking lot to my normal dress.

So here is the swag bag thoughtfully labeled "BOB" but so too were all the others.

I didn't unwrap the pen (SWAG pens are notoriously unreliable) and also left the mini engineering log book in the wrapper because I brought:

My own clipboard with the data sheet for my drive up. Not shown, are the three Tesla charging pages I left with the Munro staff about optimum long distance travel.

I asked one of the Munro senior managers about how they got the HP numbers for the different cars. He said, 'We outsource that to local suppliers.' We then chatted about the EPA "Test Car Database" and I joked about how at Oklahoma State we used to say 'Engineering is pre-business.' In fact, Munro is not in the operations business but the 'how to build' business.

If I'd stayed for the social hour, I might have found the other four who drove there in Teslas. We could have gotten together so I could show them how I 'campout in the car' and discuss about using an RV park for L2 charging or taking an overnight nap.

Bob Wilson
 
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bwilson4web

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#9
Cannonball practice

The 787 711 mile 14:18 (hh:mm) trip up and 693 mile 15:30 return, validated my Tesla long distance driving model. It also revealed insights needed for even longer distance, affordable Tesla driving. So I had:
  1. Hardcopy of ticket.
  2. Annotated drive-up map with key metrics finished in the hotel room.
  3. Model charts showing the optimum strategy (I gave to the staff team at the electronics table.)
So this is what I had on my clipboard:

The drive up I planned to use the Toledo SuperCharger. But as I got closer to Detroit, my fear of 'downtown traffic' led to an ad hoc change to take a western route. It turns out to have been a mistake.

Once in Detroit, I saw wide, broad, multilane roads without much traffic. Then I realized Detroit has been depopulated. The Dixie factories have replaced the Detroit factories so we have traffic jams on our recently paved, country roads. Meanwhile, the aging but relatively wide, multi-lane, Detroit streets are like turnpikes compared to traffic jams in Dixie.

On the return trip, I took "Telegraph Road" and made great time at ~50 mph. Shorter, it was a great way to get home:

It would have been a faster trip home except I used the Tesla trip planner on one leg.

The Tesla trip planner had a maximum charge at one SuperCharger . . . the slowest and most expensive approach. But it was late and I needed a nap. I set the iPhone alarm for a 1 hour charge and crawled in the back where the seats were down and stretched out on a pad for a nap. Another plan would have been to attend the social hour and take a nap in the Munro parking lot. But I would have been 2-3 hours late instead of 30 minutes. I won't use the Tesla trip planner again.

The Supercharger model uses the charging characteristics of my Standard Range Plus Model 3 to calculate block-to-block speed and costs:


Too frequent charger sessions are cheap but slows the trip because of the battery ramp-up. Too long on the charger and the taper delays getting back on the road and the cost goes up substantially:


This chart shows the overall flow:


So on the return trip, here is the route map and real world SuperCharger costs and speed:



Driving back using Navigate on AutoPilot, I came across a truck with an almost painful, bright light on the cab, front bumper:

My first thought was it was to discourage tailgaters but if so, way wrong. The easiest way to avoid the blinding light is to follow the truck at the closest distance so the trailer blocks the light. But when I eventually passed the truck, I saw it was also a roadway aid as well as keeping passing traffic from pulling in too soon. Anti-tailgating was probably not on the menu. BTW, there is NHTSA regulations about not having 'blinding lights' aimed at following traffic.

Bob Wilson
 
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bwilson4web

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#10
Regarding your long distance drive, what should’ve been the minimum viable range to make your trip better, in your opinion?
I chose the Standard Range Plus Model 3 because the smaller battery reduces weight giving it the highest mileage for all the Teslas. But when charging, the optimum battery range miles should be between 90-130 miles. Just won't drive past a SuperCharger with miles on the battery.

Also, I prefer to leave with 30-40 miles of reserve miles in the battery and track it during the drive. If half-way I'm losing miles, I'll backoff on the speed until the reserve miles remains constant. If the reserve miles increases or approaches the miles to the next charger, I speed up.

Arriving with 20 miles in the battery is great and 10 miles very, very nice. But over 30 miles of reserve range or even 40 miles is sad.

The SuperCharger density is high enough that with rare exceptions, we can stay in the sweet spot, SuperCharger-to-SuperCharger.

Not sure if you can answer these questions... what’s the manufacturing year/month of the latest Model 3 that they’ve analyzed what has changed since prior tear downs? For instance, is there evidence of cost/efficiency improvements in welding & glue of the body assembly? Has Tesla added more sound dampening material? How much more could Tesla save per Model 3 if their manufacturing efficiency matched that of Toyota?
Other than the induction motor rotor, I saw no evidence of a later model Tesla in their shop. No one has offered to pay for another analysis. But I did see an I-Pace and it remains disappointing. Worse, the presenter carries old school design rules which means 'Where is the Tesla grill?' and 'No OBD port' and 'No fuses.' This from someone half my age physically but already brain dead.

Bob Wilson
 
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MelindaV

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#11
Other than the induction motor rotor, I saw no evidence of a later model Tesla in their shop. No one has offered to pay for another analysis. But I did see an I-Pace and it remains disappointing. Worse, the presenter carries old school design rules which means 'Where is the Tesla grill?' and 'No OBD port' and 'No fuses.' This from someone half my age physically but already brain dead.
they first released public info on their teardown Feb 2018, so one of the first cars going to a non-employee (or one bought from an employee) - likely a VIN under 5000. IIRC, cars first started being delivered to non-employees late december 2017 - but at a trickle. The first non-employee here (prior Tesla owner, California delivery) was last week of 2017 and was VIN 228x.
 

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#14
they first released public info on their teardown Feb 2018, so one of the first cars going to a non-employee (or one bought from an employee) - likely a VIN under 5000. IIRC, cars first started being delivered to non-employees late december 2017 - but at a trickle. The first non-employee here (prior Tesla owner, California delivery) was last week of 2017 and was VIN 228x.
VIN 6640
 

manihiki

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#17
Focus on Munro consulting services

Munro and Associates has a very deep bench and expertise in manufacturing excellency that continues to grow. They preserve client data but the lessons learned becomes part of their skill set. A Munro consultancy time is pretty steep but well worth it in labor, parts, and quality. You don't have to hire an expensive experienced engineer because you can rent an exceptional engineering team from Munro. Caution, experience can be a double-edged sword (i.e., "You need a fuse box.") But at least their quiet departure doesn't become another 'Financial Times' hit piece over staff changes.

Non-denominational, they have broad engineering expertise. Cars are just one subset. For example, this appears to be a pump and filter for a slurry with chunks. As the intake passed up, the solid matter falls into the inner cylinder to take a different path. My first guess is part of a waste water treatment plant.


This gives an example of the quality of engineering analysis found at Munro:





ATTENTION:
I have sent a note to Munro & Associates asking permission to post these photos of pages from their handout, examples of the quality of their work. Contact Munro to negotiate a hardcopy.







Sandy Munro spoke on Autoline After Hours about meeting Dr. Edward Demming when Sandy worked at Ford. Demming gave him some wise words that led Sandy to making "Munro and Associates." Yet during the formal program, Sandy didn't 'Lord' this over us. But like me, he is a true "Quality Warrior." I would pickup the bar bill to spend an evening with Sandy.

Munro and Associates have good collection of design-to-cost and program management tools. They even teach how to put together what we called in GE, a "War Room." This is great for those who recognize the need. But these classical tools can easily be abused which means the buyer MUST HAVE A CLUE. You can't buy the character and commitment needed to successfully use them.

Bob Wilson
Hi, thanks for the great writeup! Can you give some overview or color around what they said (if anything) about the 'Side x Side comparison' slide you posted and if the takeaway on that slide was that the ipace technology is superior to the Tesla (given the 1 rating for ipace)? What do the "points" mean?

Also, can you give your thoughts on what the takeaways were in terms of how the various competitors compare? Are any players further ahead, and if so how far ahead, from a tech & cost perspective? Who is #2 and #3? How do Sandy and/or his employees seem to feel about how well the various players are positioned and who will win?

Thanks again!
 

bwilson4web

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#18
. . . Can you give some overview or color around what they said (if anything) about the 'Side x Side comparison' slide you posted and if the takeaway on that slide was that the ipace technology is superior to the Tesla (given the 1 rating for ipace)? What do the "points" mean?
My impression was traditional auto engineering meets a spaceship from California. Now Munro is in the manufacturing optimization business with traditional 'war room' and CAD-to-cost software. Yet they were impressed by how many things Tesla did that others often found baffling. Examples are "There are no fuse boxes" "Model 3 lacks a front grill" and "There is no OBD port." Munro recognizes the savings but for many traditionalists, the Model 3 was baffling.

Munro's focus is on manufacturing, not operational performance, so they like the "hairpin" over the "winding laced" stators:

The hairpin stators have a few, large, copper wires that are welded as needed after installation. In contrast, the winding laced stators are actually bent and pressed into the laminations. For manufacturing, hairpin is simpler with less material but laced windings are a mature technology since the 19th century.

As for the I-Pace, the Munro technologists showing that one were disappointing. For example, I asked about that silly vent in the front grill that flows front air into a wedge duct on the hood and exhausts out the top of the hood. There is no heat exchanger in the flow. When I asked, the technologists tried to claim it was for pedestrian-accident mitigation. Since he didn't work for me, it was not my place to educate him.
Also, can you give your thoughts on what the takeaways were in terms of how the various competitors compare? Are any players further ahead, and if so how far ahead, from a tech & cost perspective? Who is #2 and #3? How do Sandy and/or his employees seem to feel about how well the various players are positioned and who will win?
I think this sums it up nicely:


Sandy Munro recognizes how far ahead the Model 3 is compared to anything out there. But he was preaching to a choir still singing the hymns to the last minister. It was pointed out that with the exception of the Model 3 and BMW i3, all of the other cars were traditional bodies and frames that had their ICE ripped out and replaced by motor/batteries. Their vehicle style and design rules are stuck in the 20th Century without the ability (and agility) to make a purpose-built EV.

Bob Wilson
 
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manihiki

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#19
My impression was traditional auto engineering meets a spaceship from California. Now Munro is in the manufacturing optimization business with traditional 'war room' and CAD-to-cost software. Yet they were impressed by how many things Tesla did that others often found baffling. Examples are "There are no fuse boxes" "Model 3 lacks a front grill" and "There is no OBD port." Munro recognizes the savings but for many traditionalists, the Model 3 was baffling.

Munro's focus is on manufacturing, not operational performance, so they like the "hairpin" over the "winding laced" stators:

The hairpin stators have a few, large, copper wires that are welded as needed after installation. In contrast, the winding laced stators are actually bent and pressed into the laminations. For manufacturing, hairpin is simpler with less material but laced windings are a mature technology since the 19th century.

As for the I-Pace, the Munro technologists showing that one were disappointing. For example, I asked about that silly vent in the front grill that flows front air into a wedge duct on the hood and exhausts out the top of the hood. There is no heat exchanger in the flow. When I asked, the technologists tried to claim it was for pedestrian-accident mitigation. Since he didn't work for me, it was not my place to educate him.

I think this sums it up nicely:


Sandy Munro recognizes how far ahead the Model 3 is compared to anything out there. But he was preaching to a choir still singing the hymns to the last minister. It was pointed out that with the exception of the Model 3 and BMW i3, all of the other cars were traditional bodies and frames that had their ICE ripped out and replaced by motor/batteries. Their vehicle style and design rules are stuck in the 20th Century without the ability (and agility) to make a purpose-built EV.

Bob Wilson
Thank you again, Bob! Feel free to post any more anecdotes or information they provided about the competitive positioning of the 3 co's if you think of anything, but this is all helpful!
 

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#20
Thanks for this great information.

One observation: we share the same technique regarding monitoring the planned arrival (SOC %), with adjusting speed up or down as required to stay on the planned energy "howgozit".

I have been lamenting the day Tesla removed the "% battery remaining at next planned stop" icon that was always visible right next to the planned ETA.

I have sent Tesla, about once a month, a recommendation to bring back that icon as always showing as that prevents needless attention spent on drilling down into unique dialog boxes.

Cheers.