MPP Model 3 Sports Coilovers Dual Motor/Performance/P+

MountainPass

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#21
I will be going with slightly lower than stock. Roads are bad and parking lot turtles are even worst.

MMP, can both rebound and compression adjustment be made while the coilover is installed on the car?
Yes, it is especially easy if you don't lower the car much. In the front, we made 2 very small holes in the frunk plastic to put an allen key through to adjust the front dampers. You could also just remove the frunk plastic to do that if you don't want holes, it takes me about 3 minutes to remove that.
 

modelo tres

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#22
Just curious,

I saw your video on YouTube of the development process for the RWD coilovers. I like how extensive your research was into getting everything right and the testimonials are showing for it.

Did you guys do just as much research and development into these AWD coilovers with the different weight distribution and different handling characteristics of the AWD Model 3s?

Thank you

I'm just about ready to put a deposit down.
 

JeffC

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#23
Obviously Sasha can answer better than I can, but the difference between dual motor and single motor Model 3s is about 120 kg for the front drivetrain (motor/geabox/controller), so the suspension tuning would only be very slightly different between them. Call it about 6% more weight low and up front at the front axle.

There's even some evidence that Tesla may use similar springs or dampers in both single motor and dual motor cars, aside from the slightly shorter springs in the Performance version. The differences in mass and its distribution are pretty small.
 
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beastmode13

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#24
Obviously Sasha can answer better than I can, but the difference between dual motor and single motor Model 3s is about 120 kg for the front drivetrain (motor/geabox/controller), so the suspension tuning would only be very slightly different between them. Call it about 6% more weight low and up front at the front axle.

There's even some evidence that Tesla may use similar springs or dampers in both single motor and dual motor cars, aside from the slightly shorter springs in the Performance version. The differences in mass and its distrobution are pretty small.
Static distribution difference is small, but dynamic distribution differences will be much higher due to harder acceleration of Performance model.
 

modelo tres

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#25
Thank you beastmode13; that is exactly my point.

There is so much more to it than just the difference in weight distribution, which is exactly why I asked my original question.
 

JeffC

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#27
FWIW I believe Sasha did indicate earlier that the tuning of the front coilovers would be slightly different for the dual motor cars, due to the bit of added mass up front. But that was a preliminary thought; will need to see what he ends up with.
 

beastmode13

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#28
To add a bit of color to the dynamic weight shift during braking and acceleration. With stock P3D+ even during spirited driving within the legal speed limit of the roads, when accelerating hard and turning, I can feel the front end lighten to the point that it would require slight steering adjustment to maintain the same turning arc. However, in most instances, the electronic wizardry (vectoring of motor output and braking) would kick in to tame the understeer.

However, I'm looking to utilize the MPP coilover to lower the ride height a bit and stiffening up the compression and rebound to provide better control of weight transfer that impacts steering that triggers electronic wizardry. The electronic wizardry generates extra heat in the motor/battery system on Model3 and brake system. From what I have read so far, overheating the motor/battery system is the number one reason and most difficult challenge for Model 3 on the track. So having a track-tuned suspension setup might help reduce the heat burden while on the track.
 

JeffC

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#29
To add a bit of color to the dynamic weight shift during braking and acceleration. With stock P3D+ even during spirited driving within the legal speed limit of the roads, when accelerating hard and turning, I can feel the front end lighten to the point that it would require slight steering adjustment to maintain the same turning arc. However, in most instances, the electronic wizardry (vectoring of motor output and braking) would kick in to tame the understeer.
All powerful cars do this to some extent. Some have more power than suspension. It was particularly bad on a very early Model S P85 I drove without the + suspension upgrade. In other words, it had the stock, full soft suspension, and even with a possible anti-squat suspension, it transferred so much load off the front wheels under full power acceleration that the front end got very light and wanted to wander around. A 2018 Model S P100DL I drove had a much more competent suspension for its power.

So some of what you're describing is simply the physics of load transfer. Hard acceleration will transfer load off the front of the car and onto the rear. Shorter or stiffer springs or firmer dampers do help though. Model 3 (including the Peformance version) does have relatively tall springs, but as I've pointed out elsewhere, having a longer suspension travel is beneficial in handling large bumps and dips of real world roads better. There is always a tradeoff between ride and handling, and Tesla did an extremely good job with all of the Model 3 variants. I very much agree with the Tesla engineer who said during the Road & Track review of Model 3 track mode:

https://www.roadandtrack.com/new-cars/road-tests/a22625274/tesla-model-3-performance-track-test/
"It's easy to make a car that handles well. But if you want to make it go over bumps and ride well, be comfortable, that is really difficult to do," Lars Moravy, Director of Chassis Engineering tells me trackside. "We worked long and hard to make it be able to go around the track fast, be agile, be responsive, but not shatter your teeth out."
(Looking at you BMW M3 in track mode....)

Some people complain about the Model 3 wheel to fender gap on aesthetic grounds, but it looks fine to me and has functional benefits.

BTW the way to tame understeer is to take a different line and manage the torque and velocity differently throughout a turn. Slow in, fast out. Small, gradual adjustments to the controls, including throttle. See racing school. :)

That said, if I get Sasha's coilovers I will definitely run them a little lower than stock (say 1 inch lower than non-P == 15 mm lower than P) for street use, perhaps dropping even more for track use.

However, I'm looking to utilize the MPP coilover to lower the ride height a bit and stiffening up the compression and rebound to provide better control of weight transfer that impacts steering that triggers electronic wizardry. The electronic wizardry generates extra heat in the motor/battery system on Model3 and brake system. From what I have read so far, overheating the motor/battery system is the number one reason and most difficult challenge for Model 3 on the track. So having a track-tuned suspension setup might help reduce the heat burden while on the track.
The amount of energy/heat used by traction control is probably not significant for the battery pack/motors compared to the energy used to actually move the car, but the traction and stability controls do heat the (rear) brakes possibly significantly.

The good news is that the track mode *may* allow such large slip angles that more rational slip angles for fast lap times may trigger the traction control via brakes much less. (All of the videos of track mode seem to feature large, near-drifting slip angles, which as we know is slow around a race track. Smaller slip angles are faster around a race track.)
 
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JeffC

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#32
Can't really get any better to have Randy Pobst helping fine tuning Track Mode. - https://www.motortrend.com/cars/tes...erformance-track-mode-release-version-review/
Agree, and I like that he didn't like the heavy regen on throttle lift. If a racer wants oversteer, they can nudge the brakes. If they want the back end to rotate more into a turn, they can trail brake. Braking generally belongs on the brake pedal and not the throttle.

http://www.jeffchan.com/cars/ev/regen-on-throttle.html
 

JeffC

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#35
Outrageous; they disqualified Cameron. Something about fuel. (The microphone and video cut out during the awards ceremony.)
 
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dfw

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#38
If the sport coilovers can be as comfortable as stock coilovers on the softer settings, why would someone opt for comfort (vs sport) coilovers?

Is there no rear toe adjustability on the m3p, stock?

M3p feels pretty floaty on Dallas area undulating-roads, and brakes aren't anything special (the one place I feel the weight of the car), so I'm looking to remedy those things.
 

JeffC

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#39
If the sport coilovers can be as comfortable as stock coilovers on the softer settings, why would someone opt for comfort (vs sport) coilovers?
Presumably they're taller for more ride comfort over taller bumps, and/or softer for generally more ride comfort.

Is there no rear toe adjustability on the m3p, stock?
Most cars have rear toe adjustment, including Model 3. Sasha's toe kit adds more toe adjustment range that can be needed if the car is lowered, for example using coil overs.

M3p feels pretty floaty on Dallas area undulating-roads,
Model 3 Performance is designed to have good suspension travel, good ride comfort, and good track performance at the same time. It's very hard to get that kind of tuning correct, and Tesla's achievement in making that actually happen in M3P is outstanding. Almost anyone can make a track car that sticks like glue, but will shake your teeth loose on poorly paved real world roads. But yes, there is some suspension travel (to handle bumps) and the ride is somewhat soft for better comfort, and yes, it also performs reasonably well on a race track even with no modifications.

Reference:

https://www.roadandtrack.com/new-cars/road-tests/a22625274/tesla-model-3-performance-track-test/

"It's easy to make a car that handles well. But if you want to make it go over bumps and ride well, be comfortable, that is really difficult to do," Lars Moravy, [Tesla's] Director of Chassis Engineering tells me trackside. "We worked long and hard to make it be able to go around the track fast, be agile, be responsive, but not shatter your teeth out."

and brakes aren't anything special (the one place I feel the weight of the car), so I'm looking to remedy those things.
Many people seem to misunderstand that the purpose of performance/racing brakes is to reduce brake fade on a race track. Normal street driving (even fairly quick) does not heat most brakes enough to get fade.

I find the Performance Upgrade option Brembos to be excellent, have good feel, a firm pedal, be predictable, etc., but I have not taken it on a track yet. People who have taken the PUO Brembos on a race track have found they last about 2 to 3 laps without fade, which is excellent for brakes without higher temperature (semi-racing) brake pads, or high temperature racing brake fluid. With pad and fluid upgrades, the PUO Brembos would probably work about the same as Sasha's excellent rotor upgrades.

Reference: (note the comments about brake fade on the PUO Brembos of the stock Model 3 Performance)



The PUO Brembos are very high quality, high tech units from a company that makes excellent racing and non-racing brakes for a large number of car makers. To assume they're not high performance without taking them on a race track could lead to false conclusions.


Model 3 sometimes feels heavy because it is. It's about 400 pounds heavier than an equivalent BMW 3 series. But it's around 1,000 pounds lighter than a Model S and moves more easily because of that. All Teslas feel and drive much lighter than they actually are due to excellent suspension designs and very low center of gravity, but the mass of the battery pack is substantial. (Same is true for any long range EV.) Even with weight savings elsewhere, the battery pack does create a 10-20% weight penalty compared to similar combustion cars overall. That's a fact of life until batteries continue to improve further, which they inevitably will, both in cost and weight, even without radical breakthroughs such as solid state batteries.

(Eventually, EVs will be both lighter and cheaper to buy than combustion cars. That will happen within a decade due to continual battery improvements. They already cost 1/3 to much to operate as fossil cars, so at that point, almost no one will buy new combustion cars unless they like paying both a higher purchase price and much higher operating costs.)
 
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