Model 3 safety and crash insight (Teslarati article)

Runt8

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#1
A Model 3 was totaled in what was reportedly a 60mph crash (rear-ended a stopped car). Very informative photos and pics here, here and here. As it relates to this thread and Munro & Assoc. views, anyone want to share their thoughts on the damage of the car vs. the concerns the two gentlemen had about frunk and screen and doors etc. in a crash?

My two cents: depends on the crash of course but frunk seems to always get out the way fairly easy (i.e. it's crushed/popped open in every single bad Model 3 crash we've seen. Also, that screen looks very solid. Wonder if it was still able to be powered, but aside from shattered glass, IF it had power... seems like it could have been somewhat operable?
I'd want to know the severity of any injuries to the driver or passengers. From the pictures the passenger compartment looks fairly intact. If they were able to walk away with minor injuries then I couldn't car less what two "car experts" think (not that I give their opinion much credibility as it is).
 

Maevra

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#2
I'd want to know the severity of any injuries to the driver or passengers. From the pictures the passenger compartment looks fairly intact. If they were able to walk away with minor injuries then I couldn't car less what two "car experts" think (not that I give their opinion much credibility as it is).
The driver of the Model 3 said he was ok and no injuries aside from his right foot due to the gas pedal, but didn't elaborate further. No mention of how many people were in the car aside from him (source).
 

OrangeJulius

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#3
A Model 3 was totaled in what was reportedly a 60mph crash (rear-ended a stopped car). Very informative photos and pics here, here and here. As it relates to this thread and Munro & Assoc. views, anyone want to share their thoughts on the damage of the car vs. the concerns the two gentlemen had about frunk and screen and doors etc. in a crash?

My two cents: depends on the crash of course but frunk seems to always get out the way fairly easy (i.e. it's crushed/popped open in every single bad Model 3 crash we've seen. Also, that screen looks very solid. Wonder if it was still able to be powered, but aside from shattered glass, IF it had power... seems like it could have been somewhat operable?
Armchair forensics here, but from the two photos shot at the crash scene:

1. It might have been a red light running.

In the full side shot a car can be seen across the intersection up on the median, with what looks like left rear side damage. Also on that median is a bent "divided road" sign.

In addition, the damage to the Tesla is greater on its left front quarter than its right front quarter. All this together might suggest that the Tesla was at right angles to the other car in the collision; left front of Tesla hitting left rear side of the other car.

The Tesla may have run a red light when the other car was already in the intersection moving from right to left, or the other car, coming from the right, ran the red light and Tesla turned to its right in an attempt to avoid it but failed.

2. It was indeed a rear end, and the car on the median was well in front of the Tesla, but had slowed, or come to a complete stop, on a green light and started an illegal left or U-turn which the Tesla would not have anticipated, and the Tesla was unable to avoid it.


I'm not a real detective, but I play one on TV. :D
 
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Brokedoc

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#6
The glovebox issue was something that jumped out at me in the article but it should be easy software fix. FWIW, it seems like the Model X has a similar safety mechanism where the Falcon Doors and trunk all open up - The Model X wrecks I've seen with airbag deployments all seem to show the FWD and trunk open.

Model-X-crash-may-2017.jpg Red-Tesla-Model-X-Crash-3-1.jpg tesla-model-x-accident-air-bag-safety.jpg
 

Michael Russo

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EVfusion

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#8
The glovebox issue was something that jumped out at me in the article but it should be easy software fix. FWIW, it seems like the Model X has a similar safety mechanism where the Falcon Doors and trunk all open up - The Model X wrecks I've seen with airbag deployments all seem to show the FWD and trunk open.

View attachment 5756 View attachment 5757 View attachment 5758
To put it into perspective, the 'glovebox issue' is only a problem because the car is so safe. If the driver was dead or seriously injured, the ownership and insurance papers would have been the least of his woes.
Great that an easy fix may be possible but I'd prefer to focus on the fact the driver was alive and well against the paramedics grim observation about the 'normal' outcome in such an accident.
 

MelindaV

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#9
Armchair forensics here, but from the two photos shot at the crash scene:

2. It was a rear end, and the car on the median was well in front of the Tesla, but had slowed on a green light and started an illegal left or U-turn which the Tesla would not have anticipated, and the Tesla was unable to avoid it.

I'm not a real detective, but I play one on TV. :D
the driver said on reddit he rear ended a stationary car (while going 60mph).
 

sandange

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#10
on the rear doors not having the manual latches...
earlier this week, there was a car crash outside my office, that of course we all run to the window and critique what may have happened. based on the one driver's weaving hand signals, it would appear the car she hit (a 10ish year old Toyota sedan) was weaving thru traffic and cut her off. The weaving car went over a curb, sideswiped a cast iron light pole and went thru a metal fence and shrubs before stopping in a (thankfully) empty parking lot.
When a bystander ran up to his car when he came to a stop, he pulled on all 4 door handles multiple times attempting to open them. Cop pulled in shortly later and did the same, followed by the fire crew with a pry bar.
so... point is even a car that only has manual old school latch releases can trap people in the car, even following a relatively minor wreck.
So this can be an indicator that there is room for improvement
 

PTC Gator

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#11
Could somebody that knows the intricacies of the safety systems explain how you are able to rear end a stationary vehicle? I'd like to get a better grasp on how that works before i have to use it. I thought there would be some kind of warning sound/indication and possibly auto braking. Clearly that is incorrect.
 

Robert Pickel

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#12
This Model 3 plowed into the rear of a stopped vehicle at 60 mph! I have yet to see anything about these suspicious circumstances. This would normally be a very unusual type of accident. Was the M3 on auto pilot? Was the driver asleep/watching a movie?
 

MelindaV

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#13
Could somebody that knows the intricacies of the safety systems explain how you are able to rear end a stationary vehicle? I'd like to get a better grasp on how that works before i have to use it. I thought there would be some kind of warning sound/indication and possibly auto braking. Clearly that is incorrect.
Screen Shot 2018-02-17 at 7.05.28 AM.png
however, these are overridden by driver input. So if the driver has his foot on the accelerator, the AEB will not activate because it will always default to the driver's control.
It will also not 100% prevent a wreck or attempt to save the car. It is intended to slow down enough to allow occupants to walk away without being killed. the driver and passenger had just minor cuts/scratches but overall were in one piece. sounds like the safety features did what they should have.
 

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#14
So the driver had to keep his foot on the accelerator up to a point where max braking would be unable to stop the vehicle in time and/or ignore any audible or visual warnings. Tesla will have data from the accident that would show when the car recognized the threat and started its warnings?

It just seemed to me that you would have to really try hard (or be completely oblivious) as a driver to be able to accomplish this kind of accident.

This is the kind of thing I need to know, so I can pass it on to my other family members that will be driving the car.
 

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#15
541DA02B-C893-4728-932C-19FC4D962F66.jpeg
So the driver had to keep his foot on the accelerator up to a point where max braking would be unable to stop the vehicle in time and/or ignore any audible or visual warnings. Tesla will have data from the accident that would show when the car recognized the threat and started its warnings?

It just seemed to me that you would have to really try hard (or be completely oblivious) as a driver to be able to accomplish this kind of accident.

This is the kind of thing I need to know, so I can pass it on to my other family members that will be driving the car.
Yes I think Tesla will log those warnings. The car will also warn you that you are overriding its normal AEB/ AP braking behavior. This example is when I kept pressing the accelerator even though AP would normally have slowed down the car:
541DA02B-C893-4728-932C-19FC4D962F66.jpeg
 

MelindaV

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#16
It just seemed to me that you would have to really try hard (or be completely oblivious) as a driver to be able to accomplish this kind of accident.
or was going significantly faster than 60mph making that stopped car appear in their path in the blink of an eye. people do stupid things, so maybe ask your family members who will be driving to try and limit their stupid things to when they are not driving.
 

PTC Gator

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#17
or was going significantly faster than 60mph making that stopped car appear in their path in the blink of an eye. people do stupid things, so maybe ask your family members who will be driving to try and limit their stupid things to when they are not driving.
That brings up a good technical question. How far ahead can the car's sensors detect and identify threats? Obviously the faster you are traveling the bigger a concern this is. There has to be a speed that the car's systems cannot get the warning and activate safety measures before impact. I would hope that speed is well outside of any envelope we would find ourselves, but I am curious as to what it might be.
 
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#18
So if the driver has his foot on the accelerator, the AEB will not activate because it will always default to the driver's control.
Not true. At least not for German vehicles. AEB will brake because brake pedal has higher priority over accelerator pedal. It can be overridden but to do so, driver first has to release accelerator and press it again.
Accelerator pedal has higher priority over cruise control.


There has to be a speed that the car's systems cannot get the warning and activate safety measures before impact.
Best radars work at speeds up to 210km/h or 130mph. They can see at least 160 meters ahead.
Emergency brake warning and action is all about programming.
Right now, common rear-ending collision systems will avoid collision completely without driver intervention up to 50-60km/h.
At speeds between 60-210km/h warnings are given appropriately for complete collision avoidance but in case driver doesn't act,
crash will be mitigated though not avoided completely.

I personally got 3-4 total avoidances at around 20-30km/h and one total avoidance at 130km/h (80mph) after warning and immediate driver reaction (like 0,5 seconds). We stopped around a meter before colliding with stopped vehicle (intersection, was waiting for left turn). This situation happened as we were following a vehicle that swerved right abruptly to avoid collision with stopped vehicle while we were trying to overtake vehicle that just swerved right. We saw stopped vehicle way too late. Brake-system was primed immediately, early warning was skipped and last warning was given immediately (as far as I remember, beeping started within 0.1-0.3 seconds after vehicle in front of us left the lane and stopped vehicle was seen). As soon as driver touched brake pedal, unstoppable procedure began. I know it sounds weird, but brake-preload actually works. Braking action started way more aggressively that it would be possible with sudden stomp on the pedal. BMW made in 2010 without camera, only radar.
Remark: that same vehicle detects pedestrians and bicycles as well if they travel too close to vehicle trajectory (narrow road).
 

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#19
@PTC Gator:

How far ahead can the car's sensors detect and identify threats?:

According to Tesla, the radar can see 160m ahead, and the narrow forward cam can see 250m max. In real-world experience, reaction time of the sensors depends on weather conditions that may limit visibility AND the selected settings on the car.

For the early collision warning, the level can be set to Late, Medium, or Early. In our personal experience:
1. Early triggers is around 5 car lengths ahead
2. Medium 3-4 car lengths away
3. Late- 2 car lengths


Obviously the faster you are traveling the bigger a concern this is. There has to be a speed that the car's systems cannot get the warning and activate safety measures before impact.

Agree with @arnis, at this point collision avoidance is all about programming and depends on the speed/scenario. Our Model 3 has warned us of at least five "possible" collisions (warning set on Medium).
 

MelindaV

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#20
Not true. At least not for German vehicles. AEB will brake because brake pedal has higher priority over accelerator pedal.
if we were talking about German cars, that may be relevant. But since this forum is about TESLA, lets keep the references to the actual cars we are talking about. ok?