Model 3 on-track at Laguna Seca: 20 minutes, NO throttling

Mad Hungarian

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#41
Yeah. It's not unreasonable to provide brake pads that are not designed to handle continuous hard braking like that. They need to stop the car during a panick stop periodically, but otherwise the car's regen makes sure they don't get much of a workout in normal circumstances.

I wouldn't expect this use to be covered under warranty.
I agree. It's a very fluid area and depends greatly upon what the manufacturer's policy is. And those vary considerably.
Here's a good article from Autoblog on the matter.
When cars like the Nissan GT-R, or Porsche's entire line, are NOT covered, I have a hard time believing a much more broad-market vehicle like the 3 would be.

Here's currently the only thing that Tesla says on the matter. See the last line.

upload_2018-3-12_9-56-47-png.6258


It's now completely up to Tesla as to whether they consider lapping on a racetrack normal use. If they do, they open themselves up to a LOT of free replacement brake pads and rotors, because unless they decide to dramatically change the pad compound to one that is track-biased (highly unlikely) this is going to happen to every (at least non-Plus) 3 that hits the track on the weekend.

Now, my personal hope is that they'll do a complete change N/C for @macrow69 under Goodwill, as their warranty is admittedly vague and he's the first (as far as we know) to track a 3 and discover this issue. Once that's done though, I wouldn't be the least bit surprised to see them issue a TSB saying that this isn't covered. And hopefully an amendment to the warranty policy clarifying this.

If I could wave my magic wand I'd also really hope they start offering a Performance Brake package for regular 3's, like BMW does with M-Performace packs for regular 3 series cars.
Could simply be the Plus brakes with a more aggressive pad.
But I don't think it's huge priority for them at the moment. Maybe once Production Hell is finally over?
 
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Mad Hungarian

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#42
So I reached out to Hawk Performance this morning to see if they had anything in development yet for Model 3 and they did not, thinking as many of us did that the 3 might have the same issues as S and X when it came to the track. Clearly we know that's no longer the case.

Here's the schematic they sent for what looks like the closest pad in their inventory, based on a screen cap of the front that I sent from the post-mortem video:

upload_2018-3-12_13-32-38-png.6261


It would be very interesting to know if that's a match.

@macrow69 , would you be willing to pull one of the old (or new, once it comes back) front pads off your car and measure the backing plates? Even better if we could get for front and rear.
I, Hawk and the Model 3 community would be greatly indebted :).
 

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JWardell

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#43
I wouldn't expect this use to be covered under warranty.
I don't think anything was defective here, brakes are typically a wear item and not covered under any warrenty, unless there was a clear manufacturing issue.
I did have my BMW's brakes replaced for free once only because after less than 10k mi they were pulsing quite a bit despite light use, and maybe because the dealership liked me. I think docs said defective rotors. Problem never appeared again.
What's great to see is the very clear video on just how easy it is to replace the brake pads yourself. I hope we get some aftermarket options soon. No doubt at the moment this person had no other choice but to have Tesla replace them until others make them.
 

macrow69

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#45
Now, my personal hope is that they'll do a complete change N/C for @macrow69 under Goodwill, as their warranty is admittedly vague and he's the first (as far as we know) to track a 3 and discover this issue.
Thanks for the hope. :D I never went into this thinking Tesla was going to cover the cost here. I don't consider track days 'normal' use. I will be covering the cost here.

I plan to send out a summary of the service and cost when completed (expected by end of week).
 

macrow69

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#46
@macrow69 , would you be willing to pull one of the old (or new, once it comes back) front pads off your car and measure the backing plates? Even better if we could get for front and rear. I, Hawk and the Model 3 community would be greatly indebted :).
You bet. I requested from Tesla Service that I would like to obtain all the original parts replaced.
 

KarenRei

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#49
As crazy as that price is, note this comment:

Model S rotors are $330 each. Not $90. Similar repair would be ~$8500.

The "other" M3, at the time I owned it, had rotors that are priced at $650 EACH.

 

garsh

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#50
Update on Tesla service replacing brakes, here.
I hope you don't mind a C&P of the contents:

Sorry it took so long to respond. I have been busy at work and life. :) Watching my kid's high school robots Team 971 "Spartan Robotics" compete in the San Fransisco FIRST regional (videos) competition. Kinda proud. ;-)

Ok...here is what I just posted on a YouTube comment in the brake video:

"The Tesla Model 3 brakes are obviously not designed for this [track day]. No surprise. What is promising is that the Model 3 lasted the session without thermal limiting. EVs lasting this long on a track is still a new thing. We are not there yet, but this year is promising for what could happen with performance EV modifications and potential tracking.

I (and many others in the industry) are still looking for performance 3rd party brake pads...they don't exist, YET... There are some options to make custom performance brake pads that we are looking into, but those will be expensive. Unplugged Performance is offer front carbon ceramics, but they are very expensive (~$9K).

There is also an option to use Model S pads and cut them down to fit. This might be a short term option, since the Model S pad compound is better than the stock Model 3.

Tesla currently doesn't offer Model 3 pads for sale by themselves. Not an option at all...YET. Apparently, Brembo doesn't YET sell Tesla Model 3 brake pads separately from the brake system (rotors/pads/calipers), so complete set needs to be replaced...at this point in time. Yes...that is rough, but that is what is happening right now.

Leave you all with a positive note here...the market is listening and there will be solutions coming. Just not right now. EV performance modifications is coming."

Here is the final cost brake down (Total was: $3,101.75):
 

PNWmisty

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#51
Standard regen may have helped a little, but Laguna Seca will trash most OE pads super quick. Remember, the usage pattern when you're on a track is basically: accelerator to the floor, quick switch to very hard braking, a bit of accelerator feather in cornering, and then to the floor again. There isn't much in the way of 'coast time' for regen to do its thing--you're either on the brakes hard or you're on the accelerator. Repeat 11 times every 2.238 miles, or about 2 minutes.
Don't underestimate the power of regen to greatly reduce brake temperatures. Even though the braking is intermittent, the heat soaking that discs go through is cumulative (minus however much heat they can dissipate to the wheels and surrounding air). If the brakes are generating more heat than they can dissipate, the brake temperatures will continue to climb.

It looks like no one has a definitive answer regarding how much current the regen braking can generate but, based on how strong regen feels, I would guess it's more than the 48 amp max wall current limit. And whatever the max regen current is, that can be directly converted to heat energy that is NOT being added to the brake discs for the duration of every braking event. In addition to that, any inefficiencies in the regen/charging circuit also represent heat that doesn't make it to the brakes.
 

KarenRei

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#52
Don't underestimate the power of regen to greatly reduce brake temperatures. Even though the braking is intermittent, the heat soaking that discs go through is cumulative (minus however much heat they can dissipate to the wheels and surrounding air). If the brakes are generating more heat than they can dissipate, the brake temperatures will continue to climb.

It looks like no one has a definitive answer regarding how much current the regen braking can generate but, based on how strong regen feels, I would guess it's more than the 48 amp max wall current limit. And whatever the max regen current is, that can be directly converted to heat energy that is NOT being added to the brake discs for the duration of every braking event. In addition to that, any inefficiencies in the regen/charging circuit also represent heat that doesn't make it to the brakes.
Also, note that AWD and P have two motors for regen, not just 1. According to Elon, the max regen force on non-P AWD is enough to overpower the traction force on all but the sticky 20" tires. I sure hope so, that would be awesome :)