Model 3 charge rate spreadsheet

Model34mePlease

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#21
So I present, with some giant caveats.... Graphs!

View attachment 3816
The caveats:

* We have no data on the very bottom of the LR range, not the top
* We have few datapoints, period.
* We have no SR datapoints. I simply currrent limited LR at 46/31x sooner (the ratio of cells in the LR to the sr)
* We have no CHAdeMO data. The voltage curve is a guess, although probably a reasonable one.
* I'm assuming tesla uses a basis of 244 Wh/mi for the SR and LR probably should have cut the SR by 2% now that I think about it) and 290 for the S 100 - the fastest charger in Tesla's current lineup. Other Teslas will be slower, some significantly.

But hey, it's something! Enjoy! :)
Those are great, thanks! It would be terrific if the graphs could plot the actual data points we have to make some of the certainties and uncertainties obvious.
 

danzgator

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#22
So I present, with some giant caveats.... Graphs!

View attachment 3816
The caveats:

* We have no data on the very bottom of the LR range, not the top
* We have few datapoints, period.
* We have no SR datapoints. I simply currrent limited LR at 46/31x sooner (the ratio of cells in the LR to the sr)
* We have no CHAdeMO data. The voltage curve is a guess, although probably a reasonable one.
* I'm assuming tesla uses a basis of 244 Wh/mi for the SR and LR probably should have cut the SR by 2% now that I think about it) and 290 for the S 100 - the fastest charger in Tesla's current lineup. Other Teslas will be slower, some significantly.

But hey, it's something! Enjoy! :)
Thanks for the charts! Very informative. I think you explained this technically earlier, but in layman's terms, I find that I typically charge between 100 miles to 200 miles at Superchargers on road trips. It doesn't make sense to charge above 80% unless you're having lunch or something like that because it charges at a much slower rate. Additionally, typically you try never to cut it so close that you would get to a Supercharger with 0% because it is risky, time consuming, and costly, if you don't make it. In the real world you aim to get to the next charger with 10-20% charge, minimum. Therefore, you're typical charge is from 10-20% to 70-80%. On the S 100 and 3 LR, that seems like it will take 20-30 min. However, if you only charge to 80% on the SR (+/-170 mi range), you would be cutting it a little too close for comfort to make it to the next Supercharger in most situations. So, on the SR, it ends up taking 50-60 minutes to get to the 200 mile "safe range" you want to get to the next Supercharger. On long road trips, doubling your charge time like this means hours of extra time Supercharging on the SR. I was beginning to think that maybe the LR was overkill given the sandbagged range and efficiency of the 3, but these charts convince me to stick with the LR.
 

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#23
Hi. I quite like what Tesla is doing on the presskit page here. They mention Supercharge rate as rated miles added in 30 minutes. Of course, this would mean starting from 0%. The page says the Model 3 LR Supercharge rate is 170 rated miles in 30 minutes. However, they don't mention a comparable number for the Model S or X. But the video here shows the charge percentages for different Tesla packs at 30 minutes. Therefore it would be an excellent idea to compare the range added in 30 minutes. It's a shame that 1 EPA rated mile in one Tesla model is not the same as 1 EPA rated mile in another Tesla model. Therefore the numbers don't quite do justice to the Model 3.

Another interesting idea would be to look at how many rated miles you can add overnight using a standard 110V home socket in the USA or 220V in Europe. The reason this is interesting is that home changing with a standard socket is normally too slow but because the Model 3 is more efficient, you will get more range per kWh. Therefore a standard socket should be sufficient for more people especially in Europe.
I get 4mph from a 110V outlet in my MS. Someone on this forum posted a 5mph rate for their M3 from 110V outlet.
 

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#25
I was beginning to think that maybe the LR was overkill given the sandbagged range and efficiency of the 3, but these charts convince me to stick with the LR.
Note the caveats, particularly with regard to the SR; we're going on a whole zero datapoints here ;) We don't know that it will be some simple linear adjustment relative to the number of cells - for example, perhaps the limitations will be thermal, wherein it would track the LR much closer. I expect we'll be finding out more very early next year ;)
 

KarenRei

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#26
Hey, I just realized something that might help (a little!) to tease out cell limits from thermal limits for getting a (still very speculative) curve for the SR. We actually do (kind of) have a datapoint: the press kit! We don't know exactly what SOC the press kit meant the "170 miles in 30 minutes / 130 miles in 30 minutes" figures from, but that can be figured out by finding out where on the LR's curve it gets 340mph. I can then ensure than SR gets 260 mph at that point.

An observation: while I used 46/31 = 1.48x as the difference between the SR and LR's curves, 170/130 is only 1.31x. So that would suggest somewhere between the thermal-only limit case and the cell-count-only limit case.

Next time I make graphs (aka, after I get a few more datapoints from our friendly local Model 3 owners! ;) ), I'll update the SR curve based on this new data. It should improve somewhat.

ED: Meh, forget waiting: ;) Wow, this looks a lot better after incorporating the press kit datapoint! I also incorporated a 2% efficiency boost for the SR this time:

tmp34-jpg.3817


Concerning the previous comment of wanting 200 miles range for a drive after arriving at what I assume to be about 40 miles, it looks like a stop would be 54,5 minutes vs. 27,3 minutes. That's twice as long at 27,3 minutes extra.

For 150 miles of range at departure (from an arrival at 40 miles range), it's 16.5 minutes vs. 22.5 minutes, aka 36% longer, 6 minutes extra per stop.

For 100 miles of range at departure from 40 miles range at arrival, the SR is actually faster, because of its greater efficiency and because it arrives at a higher voltage (15,1 minutes for the SR, 15,9 minutes for the LR - 0,8 minutes difference, 95% as long for the SR)

Again, consult all of the big caveats about our extremely limited data at present ;)
 
Last edited:

danzgator

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#27
Note the caveats, particularly with regard to the SR; we're going on a whole zero datapoints here ;) We don't know that it will be some simple linear adjustment relative to the number of cells - for example, perhaps the limitations will be thermal, wherein it would track the LR much closer. I expect we'll be finding out more very early next year ;)
Since Tesla posted 170 miles/30 min on the LR and 130 miles/30 min on the SR, I don’t think so. You can see that there’s a problem with the short range charge speed right there. It start diverging from the LR before 30 min.
 

danzgator

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#28
Hey, I just realized something that might help (a little!) to tease out cell limits from thermal limits for getting a (still very speculative) curve for the SR. We actually do (kind of) have a datapoint: the press kit! We don't know exactly what SOC the press kit meant the "170 miles in 30 minutes / 130 miles in 30 minutes" figures from, but that can be figured out by finding out where on the LR's curve it gets 340mph. I can then ensure than SR gets 260 mph at that point.

An observation: while I used 46/31 = 1.48x as the difference between the SR and LR's curves, 170/130 is only 1.31x. So that would suggest somewhere between the thermal-only limit case and the cell-count-only limit case.

Next time I make graphs (aka, after I get a few more datapoints from our friendly local Model 3 owners! ;) ), I'll update the SR curve based on this new data. It should improve somewhat.

ED: Meh, forget waiting: ;) Wow, this looks a lot better after incorporating the press kit datapoint! I also incorporated a 2% efficiency boost for the SR this time:

View attachment 3817

Concerning the previous comment of wanting 200 miles range for a drive after arriving at what I assume to be about 40 miles, it looks like a stop would be 54,5 minutes vs. 27,3 minutes. That's twice as long at 27,3 minutes extra.

For 150 miles of range at departure (from an arrival at 40 miles range), it's 16.5 minutes vs. 22.5 minutes, aka 36% longer, 6 minutes extra per stop.

For 100 miles of range at departure from 40 miles range at arrival, the SR is actually faster, because of its greater efficiency and because it arrives at a higher voltage (15,1 minutes for the SR, 15,9 minutes for the LR - 0,8 minutes difference, 95% as long for the SR)

Again, consult all of the big caveats about our extremely limited data at present ;)
Wow, this is better, but the SR getting to 100 mi faster assumes that you start charging at 0%, which would never happen in the real world. You’d always try to get there with 10% at a minimum, 15-20% if you’re conservative.
 

Michael Russo

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#30
Karen, wonderful job. A big Takk to you! :)
Am a correct in reading that (as expected) 60’ charging will get you ~50 miles more in the LRB than in the SRB?
 

KarenRei

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#31
Wow, this is better, but the SR getting to 100 mi faster assumes that you start charging at 0%, which would never happen in the real world. You’d always try to get there with 10% at a minimum, 15-20% if you’re conservative.
Please reread the post :) Those numbers are assuming beginning the charge at 40 miles range remaining.

Likewise, your previous post was already long since addressed by the time you wrote it, and the post you were replying to had a big boldface notice alerting people to the fact :)
 

KarenRei

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#32
Karen, wonderful job. A big Takk to you! :)
Am a correct in reading that (as expected) 60’ charging will get you ~50 miles more in the LRB than in the SRB?
60'? 60 feet? I'm going to guess minutes. From.... 0%? Yes, a bit over 50.

The big caveats here are, beyond that we only have a semi-vague datapoint from the press kit to go on for our SR curve, that we don't know the very bottom of the LR's curve (we can speak with more precision when talking about charges starting at higher SOCs - although even there we need more datapoints! :) ). All Teslas, around zero or below, start out charging very slowly because of the combination of current limits and low pack voltages. The rampup however varies greatly between models - some take a good while to hit their peak, while others are off and running at just a bit over 0%. I based the bottom here on an average of the curves between the different Tesla models that I could find data for, but we won't know what's right until we actually have some low-SOC Model 3 LR charges in our dataset! :)

The thing I found surprising, but makes perfect sense, is that at low SOCs, SR charging looks like it might be faster than LR, and not just because it's a touch more efficient due to its lower weight. It's because - until it starts throttling - it fills up faster, aka the SOC rises faster, aka the pack voltage rises faster. And power is current times voltage, and we're operating on what appears to be a current-limited situation. Now, once it starts to taper, the LR obviously shoots past it ;)
 

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#33
Wow, this is all fascinating stuff! I just wish I had the slightest idea what you guys are talking about! I have never felt like such a dullard in all my life. Oh well, glad this makes sense to some of you anyway. I will just be satisfied with the knowledge that those of you that DO know what all of this means seem to be pleased. LOL!

To me, supercharging just means "can I stop to charge, order my Big Mac value meal, enjoy it while checking my emails and then have enough charge to get me to my next Big Mac!" It looks like I am probably good. ;)

Dan
 

Akilae

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#34
Wow, this is all fascinating stuff! I just wish I had the slightest idea what you guys are talking about! I have never felt like such a dullard in all my life. Oh well, glad this makes sense to some of you anyway. I will just be satisfied with the knowledge that those of you that DO know what all of this means seem to be pleased. LOL!

To me, supercharging just means "can I stop to charge, order my Big Mac value meal, enjoy it while checking my emails and then have enough charge to get me to my next Big Mac!" It looks like I am probably good. ;)

Dan
Summary:
M3 charges really fast :)
 

danzgator

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#36
Please reread the post :) Those numbers are assuming beginning the charge at 40 miles range remaining.

Likewise, your previous post was already long since addressed by the time you wrote it, and the post you were replying to had a big boldface notice alerting people to the fact :)
Yeah, sorry I was trying to follow on my phone at the time. Thanks.
 

Michael Russo

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#37
60'? 60 feet? I'm going to guess minutes. From.... 0%? Yes, a bit over 50.

(...)
60 feet...? LOL! :D Of course I meant minutes... you guessed me well, Karen! ;)

Thanks for your explanations and clearly I get there are still a lot of caveats. I am strongly leaning towards the LRB though I will remain a bit on the fence until I know more reliably what French prices will be in the late 2018 timeframe... Charge time if acceptable for the SR may make me keep my options open (budget wise... :oops:) though I stupidly feel like much more than 45’ to go from 20 to 80-90 % chargé still is a bit of a paradigm shift me, particularly with frequent 850-1100 kms trips with Midnight S≡R≡NITY... Your assessment & detailed data helps in shaping that choice... yet today I am still thinking that LRB will be the first box I’ll tick... even way before the UWCs!! ;).

Gosh I can believe I just wrote this, @SoFlaModel3 !! :D
 

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#38
Hi. Comparing Supercharge times in terms of kW rate or percentage doesn't do justice to the Model 3. To see the problem better, think about the Model S 100D and Model S P100D. These two cars have the same battery. Therefore they will reach the same percentage at the same time. However, 50% of 335 miles EPA rated range is not the same as 50% of 315 miles EPA rated range.

Therefore the Model S 100D will supercharge faster than the Model S P100D. The difference is even bigger between Model S and Model 3. Therefore comparing range added over time is an excellent idea. That's why I like Tesla's "X miles in 30 minutes" format. Another excellent idea would be to compare the time it takes to supercharge from 0 to 200 rated miles.

Bjorn used to compare range added over time. Here is an excellent video by Bjorn. Unfortunately, more recently he completely ruined his comparison videos and made them useless when he started comparing kW and % instead of range. I wish all Tesla cars had the exact same battery. This would have made it clearer that comparing range added over time makes more sense than comparing kW or percentage.
Interestingly, I am not sure that we agree. I think it depends on what you are trying to compare. If you want to compare raw power charging speed, you don't want the effects of the vehicle's driving efficiency in the mix. If I just wanted to know if one car can take 120kW and another can only take 90kW, that would show the vehicle that takes 120kW has more capable charging equipment. However, if I just want to know which vehicle puts range on faster, then I agree with your statements. I would also concede that this is what most people would be concerned about. Once you factor in the vehicles driving efficiency, the Model 3 looks fantastic. But, as an engineer, I want to evaluate both the raw charging efficiency AND the vehicle efficiency to see what really changed between the MS and Model 3 ....
 

Troy

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#39
@KarenRei, here is a new data point at 5:30:

@Insaneoctane, I guess I had too many arguments with people who didn't understand that Model S 100D Supercharges faster than a Model S P100D. They came up with arguments like, "you can slow down if you need more range".

There are too many people who are easily confusable and Tesla doesn't show the data to clear things up because their cheaper cars are better in terms of range and supercharge times and they don't want to talk about that.
 

SoFlaModel3

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#40
60 feet...? LOL! :D Of course I meant minutes... you guessed me well, Karen! ;)

Thanks for your explanations and clearly I get there are still a lot of caveats. I am strongly leaning towards the LRB though I will remain a bit on the fence until I know more reliably what French prices will be in the late 2018 timeframe... Charge time if acceptable for the SR may make me keep my options open (budget wise... :oops:) though I stupidly feel like much more than 45’ to go from 20 to 80-90 % chargé still is a bit of a paradigm shift me, particularly with frequent 850-1100 kms trips with Midnight S≡R≡NITY... Your assessment & detailed data helps in shaping that choice... yet today I am still thinking that LRB will be the first box I’ll tick... even way before the UWCs!! ;).

Gosh I can believe I just wrote this, @SoFlaModel3 !! :D
I like it -- forget that range, you want to get to 60 mph .4 seconds faster :)