Model 3 battery packs to be 60&75kWh

Which size are you getting?

  • 60kWh

    Votes: 33 17.4%
  • 75kWh

    Votes: 157 82.6%

  • Total voters
    190

NoVADrew

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#41
Thank you all for the info on how to do winter tire replacement. I didn't realize it was that easy. I might have to install a ceiling rack in my garage and pick up some for the 3 when I get it.

Still really want dual motor though. Driving around an inclined corner from a stop at an intersection this morning and my FWD Accord spun out for a second and it reminded me why I love AWD. Unfortunately the wife recently traded me cars for the AWD MDX to cart the baby around in :)
 

pjfw8

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#42
Thank you all for the info on how to do winter tire replacement. I didn't realize it was that easy. I might have to install a ceiling rack in my garage and pick up some for the 3 when I get it.

Still really want dual motor though. Driving around an inclined corner from a stop at an intersection this morning and my FWD Accord spun out for a second and it reminded me why I love AWD. Unfortunately the wife recently traded me cars for the AWD MDX to cart the baby around in :)
AWD and winter tires are fantastic. Regardless of where you buy, Tire Rack has great information. The owner is a Tesla owner. I am on my 4th set of winter tires. Price and service are great, but you also get great advice!
 
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#43
Maybe I didn't follow it, why is software limited not considered?

75kWh software limited to 60kWh would make sense for production (not for cost tho).

For a physical difference, if 75kWh has 8 modules, 6 modules would only make 56.25kWh, which makes the spec 55 & 75.
 

M3OC Rules

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#44
Anyone know of a business in the Minneapolis area that will store Tesla cold/hot tires? I think BMW does but I don't know of anyone that sells a BMW 3 Series costume for the Model 3. Evannex?
 

thredge

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#45
I thought snow tires and winter tires were somewhat different. I had read somewhere that snow tires don't do so well on clean dry roads as they were designed really for snow, and clean roads increased their wear substantially.
 

Michael Russo

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#46
Maybe I didn't follow it, why is software limited not considered?

75kWh software limited to 60kWh would make sense for production (not for cost tho).

For a physical difference, if 75kWh has 8 modules, 6 modules would only make 56.25kWh, which makes the spec 55 & 75.
Welcome! You nailed it, our thinking is this not likely in a $35k car because margins won't cover the extra cost...
 

JBsC6

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#47
I am happy with the 215 mile range yet the added performance mode probably requires awd and the 75w battery...

P75d would be cool but the price upgrade on ludicrious mode with the model S is crazy...

I just want aero to sixty in 4.2 seconds...if I can get that and awd...I'm happy
 

Michael Russo

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#50
I am probably wrong but I thought that the Model 3 was going to come with a 75kWh pack that was software limited to 60kWh?
Welcome, Anthony, you'll find all you need here to catch up! ;)
Nope. Lower margins on Model ≡ unlikely to enable that...
 

SoFlaModel3

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#51
I am probably wrong but I thought that the Model 3 was going to come with a 75kWh pack that was software limited to 60kWh?
That proved to be unsuccessful with the Model S. When it comes to Model 3, not only are margins on the car tighter, but it's a different consumer. Expect a lot more financing and leasing over cash purchases and to that end the number of people that will shell out a few thousand dollars to unlock more range would be extremely limited.

They have already taken the plunge with placing autopilot hardware in every car whether you software unlock the option or not.

Doing so with the battery would be a bad business decision for them.
 

swampgator

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#52
I could be completely wrong here, but the improved technology simply means that the batteries occupy less space (and might last many more charge cycles than your typical LiON battery). However, the energy capacity is what it is... you shouldn't get any more range from 60 kwh of 2170 batteries than you would with 60 kwh of the old battery design.
This is not true. Energy density is expressed as wH/kg
The 2170's are at least 30% more energy dense then the 18650's.
This means that 60kWh in a model 3 weighs at least 30% less than if using 18650's. This will cause the car to be about 3-400 pounds lighter.
Less weight = greater range
That is why a Model s 60 can get 210 miles range, but a Model 3 60 will get probably closer to 240.
 
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#53
Model 3 battery architecture.

I expect the 2170 cells have 70% more energy than the 18650 cells. Based on the to-be-confirmed 2170 cells having 21 Wh (versus 12.4 Wh for 18650 cells) with 20 Wh usable , the pack architecture should be as follows:

60 kWh - 30P, 96S - 2880 cells. Each of 8 modules 30P, 12S with 360 cells. Total 60.5 kWh with 57.6 kW usable.
75 kWh - 38P, 96S - 3648 cells. Each of 8 modules 38P, 12S with 456 cells. Total 76.6 kWh with 72.3 kW usable.

As the base M3 60 has to get more range than the Bolt, but less than the base MS 75 - so a range in between 238 miles (383 km) and 249 miles (401 km). My guess is a range of 392 km (244 miles). 6.8 km/kWh (4.23 miles/kWh).

An M3 60D should achieve a range of 408 km (254 miles). EPA economy - 7.1 km/kWh (4.40 miles/kWh).
An M3 75D should achieve a range of 488 km (303 miles). EPA economy - 6.75 km/kWh (4.20 miles/kWh).
 

Dan Detweiler

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#55
Model 3 battery architecture.

I expect the 2170 cells have 70% more energy than the 18650 cells. Based on the to-be-confirmed 2170 cells having 21 Wh (versus 12.4 Wh for 18650 cells) with 20 Wh usable , the pack architecture should be as follows:

60 kWh - 30P, 96S - 2880 cells. Each of 8 modules 30P, 12S with 360 cells. Total 60.5 kWh with 57.6 kW usable.
75 kWh - 38P, 96S - 3648 cells. Each of 8 modules 38P, 12S with 456 cells. Total 76.6 kWh with 72.3 kW usable.

As the base M3 60 has to get more range than the Bolt, but less than the base MS 75 - so a range in between 238 miles (383 km) and 249 miles (401 km). My guess is a range of 392 km (244 miles). 6.8 km/kWh (4.23 miles/kWh).

An M3 60D should achieve a range of 408 km (254 miles). EPA economy - 7.1 km/kWh (4.40 miles/kWh).
An M3 75D should achieve a range of 488 km (303 miles). EPA economy - 6.75 km/kWh (4.20 miles/kWh).
No idea what you just said (I'm a music teacher, not an engineer!) but based on your conclusions...I sure hope you're right!

Dan
 
Last edited:
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#57
It's just a 70% increase in energy density is well beyond what most have been predicting. Most (including JB Strauble) are hinting at 35-40% increase.
The external volume increase is 47%. The internal increase is about 50%. I am assuming some increase in the ratio of active to non-active material in the cells. I think it is about 6% improvement in the ratio.
 

swampgator

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#59
The external volume increase is 47%. The internal increase is about 50%. I am assuming some increase in the ratio of active to non-active material in the cells. I think it is about 6% improvement in the ratio.
I think we are possibly talking about 2 separate things. You are describing volumetric density and I am talking in terms or weight density (wh/kg) which is the standard EV lingo. I'm not sure exactly how they might correlate?
 
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#60
Model 3 battery architecture.

I expect the 2170 cells have 70% more energy than the 18650 cells. Based on the to-be-confirmed 2170 cells having 21 Wh (versus 12.4 Wh for 18650 cells) with 20 Wh usable , the pack architecture should be as follows:

60 kWh - 30P, 96S - 2880 cells. Each of 8 modules 30P, 12S with 360 cells. Total 60.5 kWh with 57.6 kW usable.
75 kWh - 38P, 96S - 3648 cells. Each of 8 modules 38P, 12S with 456 cells. Total 76.6 kWh with 72.3 kW usable.

As the base M3 60 has to get more range than the Bolt, but less than the base MS 75 - so a range in between 238 miles (383 km) and 249 miles (401 km). My guess is a range of 392 km (244 miles). 6.8 km/kWh (4.23 miles/kWh).

An M3 60D should achieve a range of 408 km (254 miles). EPA economy - 7.1 km/kWh (4.40 miles/kWh).
An M3 75D should achieve a range of 488 km (303 miles). EPA economy - 6.75 km/kWh (4.20 miles/kWh).
Making a few more assumptions around cell, module and pack weight, the battery packs should weigh as follows (I saw a video of an 85 kWh pack teardown to guide weights):
75 kWh pack – 3648 cells @75.4 grams/cell = 275 kg cells. Modules add 55 kg. Pack adds 110 kg. Total 440 kg - 5.75 kg/kWh
60 kWh pack – 2880 cells @ 75.4 grams/cell = 217 kg cells. Modules add 53 kg. Pack adds 110 kg. Total 380 kg - 6.3 kg/kWh