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I am excited about the M3 and all of it's features, design and performance.
However, I hope the MS will always be a step ahead, more refined, more comfortable and luxerous.

I drove a Prius for 5 years ..... great car.
Then traded it on a Toyota Avalon - Hybrid two years ago. A better car. Same "family," just better.
Larger, more comfortable, more luxurious.

Why do I feel that way? For the survival of Tesla as an automobile company. There have been many start-up auto companies with great designs, excited backers, but failed for a myriad of reasons. I want Tesla to succeed.-
You can rest assured the S will always be better than the 3. By nature of being the more expensive car, it's always going to be the place where new technology, materials, features, etc go first. It's also not a guarantee that those very features ever make it down to the 3. Some will over time for sure, but some may never make it down.

You may prefer a 3 to an S based on size of car alone or it's styling, but realistically you should never be able to say the 3 is "better" than the S.
 
Just discovered this thread and here is my take.

I drive a Prius Plug-In for three years now, It is the best car for me I have ever owned because of convenience, technology, economy, dependability, comfort, ease of maintenance, and I could go on. Is it the most luxurious? No, not even close. I loved the memory seats in the Benz 300 we owned. But I would pick the Prius over the Benz any day.

I don't want to own a MS because it is too large, too expensive for what you get, and it is not the image that I personally want to project to the world. For me the Model 3 is a better car than the MS. It has 90% of everything I want in a car and even more.

I think the MS/X models are doomed. EM built the roadster, S, and X to help fund model 3 development. I don't think MS/X is where his real interests lie. In my opinion, the MS/X will be phased out in 5 to 7 years. He wants to build a people's car, a Volkswagen, like the model 3 to supply relatively affordable, environment friendly cars to the world population. He wants to build an electric semi truck to provide more economical transport of goods. He wants to build an electric pick up truck to service the work place. Once the model 3 is profitable, I think he wants to develop a $15K commuter car to provide local transportation all over the world.

I have recognized EM personality types before. I think I know where he is coming from and where he is going. He is still relatively young and he has the time, money, and energy to innovate and create world changing systems. I wish I were younger, I would love to join him.
 
Just discovered this thread and here is my take.

I drive a Prius Plug-In for three years now, It is the best car for me I have ever owned because of convenience, technology, economy, dependability, comfort, ease of maintenance, and I could go on. Is it the most luxurious? No, not even close. I loved the memory seats in the Benz 300 we owned. But I would pick the Prius over the Benz any day.

I don't want to own a MS because it is too large, too expensive for what you get, and it is not the image that I personally want to project to the world. For me the Model 3 is a better car than the MS. It has 90% of everything I want in a car and even more.

I think the MS/X models are doomed. EM built the roadster, S, and X to help fund model 3 development. I don't think MS/X is where his real interests lie. In my opinion, the MS/X will be phased out in 5 to 7 years. He wants to build a people's car, a Volkswagen, like the model 3 to supply relatively affordable, environment friendly cars to the world population. He wants to build an electric semi truck to provide more economical transport of goods. He wants to build an electric pick up truck to service the work place. Once the model 3 is profitable, I think he wants to develop a $15K commuter car to provide local transportation all over the world.

I have recognized EM personality types before. I think I know where he is coming from and where he is going. He is still relatively young and he has the time, money, and energy to innovate and create world changing systems. I wish I were younger, I would love to join him.
I concur (mostly). The Model S was ahead of its time, but while I don't think it will be gone as such, I do think it will be a different car.
The current S is quite different to the original S, much more refined and honed. So I'm not sure they will totally replace it, but will continue to develop and tweak it as they have been.
Having Model 3 around will allow them to take Model S that they could not have gone to earlier.
 
I think the Model 3 was maybe a bit accidentally similar to the Model S and Elon didn't expect people to think they were so similar. I would not be surprised to see the next gen of Model S to look a bit more luxurious to help show the differences more. And a performance boost. Especially with new EV car concepts being shown off having crazy horsepower and range, I'm sure Tesla will have a nice spec bump as always with each generation of Model S/X.
 
I think the Model 3 was maybe a bit accidentally similar to the Model S and Elon didn't expect people to think they were so similar. I would not be surprised to see the next gen of Model S to look a bit more luxurious to help show the differences more. And a performance boost. Especially with new EV car concepts being shown off having crazy horsepower and range, I'm sure Tesla will have a nice spec bump as always with each generation of Model S/X.
They have already bumped performance to add separation between the product lines. I'm sure you're right. The S will see another refresh soon. I say another since the new nose cone isn't even that old.
 
The 3 is definitely a better car given my preferences:
  • Size. I enjoy the feel of a smaller car. Easier to park, tighter turning radius.
  • Price. The 3 will still be by far the most expensive car I've ever purchased, and will hurt, bigtime. The S wouldn't have just hurt, it would've killed me.
  • Field of View.
    • The 3 has what Trev calls the "taller greenhouse." It's only like an inch less tall than the S, but the dash is much, much lower, giving a more expansive, SUV like field of view.
    • The rear-seats have finally been designed with field of view in mind. From pics of RCs, you can see that the middle seat head-rest is removable/adjustable. FINALLY!
But there are some more objective reasons to think the 3 will be better than the S:
  • A more experienced design team: Generally, people get better at things the more they do them. This is now the fourth car they've sold, and the third they've designed completely on their own.
  • A more complete design team: the S and X were designed without the input of manufacturing experts, a publicly stated frustration by the S's chief engineer, Peter Rawlinson, now with Lucid. The 3's design team included manufacturing experts from the start.
  • Designed for Manufacturability = Simplicity = Reliability (and cost savings). I'm already straining to afford this car, and I CANNOT worry about frequent breakdowns and repair costs for superfluous flash, like the self-presenting doorhandles of the S.
    • As stated by Elon, the X was based on the already complex and difficult to manufacture S, but even more complex and more difficult to manufacture--a Rube-Goldberg machine that can lead only to repair headaches down the road.
  • Energy efficiency. No matter what the range, I care about efficiency, and the 3 will be more so due to: lower drag coefficient, smaller cross sectional area, re-designed inverter, smaller contact-patch between tires and road.
I'm leaving a lot of issues off the table, but most are specific enough to fall under one of the points already covered.

Keep in mind that the S will continue to evolve and improve, and that future innovations will be put there first, maintaining the differentiation between the lines and justifying the $100k+ average sale prices of the S/X. For example, the "spaceship controls" for sure referred to an augmented reality HUD on the windscreen (hence the lowered dash to make room for it, without the added expense and engineering/manufacturing cost of the "big sky" windscreen of the X). But Elon got carried away when he said that in terms of the 3, wisened up and took it out of the initial releases of the 3 so as not to repeat the mistakes made with the release of the X, but will put it into the S and X. Soon.

My conclusion that the 3 is a better car than the S in most ways... won't last long, even when accounting for affordability.
 
They are going to keep S and X ahead of 3. There is market for big luxury cars. They got a good share of that maket. I doubt Elon would concede that easily.

I think now that 3 is out, they would focus on and refresh interior of S and make it more compelling product. Launch roadster and grab more of high end market.
 
The 3 is definitely a better car given my preferences:
  • Size. I enjoy the feel of a smaller car. Easier to park, tighter turning radius.
  • Price. The 3 will still be by far the most expensive car I've ever purchased, and will hurt, bigtime. The S wouldn't have just hurt, it would've killed me.
  • Field of View.
    • The 3 has what Trev calls the "taller greenhouse." It's only like an inch less tall than the S, but the dash is much, much lower, giving a more expansive, SUV like field of view.
    • The rear-seats have finally been designed with field of view in mind. From pics of RCs, you can see that the middle seat head-rest is removable/adjustable. FINALLY!
But there are some more objective reasons to think the 3 will be better than the S:
  • A more experienced design team: Generally, people get better at things the more they do them. This is now the fourth car they've sold, and the third they've designed completely on their own.
  • A more complete design team: the S and X were designed without the input of manufacturing experts, a publicly stated frustration by the S's chief engineer, Peter Rawlinson, now with Lucid. The 3's design team included manufacturing experts from the start.
  • Designed for Manufacturability = Simplicity = Reliability (and cost savings). I'm already straining to afford this car, and I CANNOT worry about frequent breakdowns and repair costs for superfluous flash, like the self-presenting doorhandles of the S.
    • As stated by Elon, the X was based on the already complex and difficult to manufacture S, but even more complex and more difficult to manufacture--a Rube-Goldberg machine that can lead only to repair headaches down the road.
  • Energy efficiency. No matter what the range, I care about efficiency, and the 3 will be more so due to: lower drag coefficient, smaller cross sectional area, re-designed inverter, smaller contact-patch between tires and road.
I'm leaving a lot of issues off the table, but most are specific enough to fall under one of the points already covered.

Keep in mind that the S will continue to evolve and improve, and that future innovations will be put there first, maintaining the differentiation between the lines and justifying the $100k+ average sale prices of the S/X. For example, the "spaceship controls" for sure referred to an augmented reality HUD on the windscreen (hence the lowered dash to make room for it, without the added expense and engineering/manufacturing cost of the "big sky" windscreen of the X). But Elon got carried away when he said that in terms of the 3, wisened up and took it out of the initial releases of the 3 so as not to repeat the mistakes made with the release of the X, but will put it into the S and X. Soon.

My conclusion that the 3 is a better car than the S in most ways... won't last long, even when accounting for affordability.
I think we need to be clear here --- the 3 is not and never will be a "better" car than the S.

Now at the individual buyer level there will be many factors that lead someone to say the 3 is better ranging from design to preference in having a smaller car to what you get for the money spent.

In the end, overall, the S will still be better. It's going to get the newest tech first, the highest quality materials, and the best performance.
 
I think we need to be clear here --- the 3 is not and never will be a "better" car than the S.

Now at the individual buyer level there will be many factors that lead someone to say the 3 is better ranging from design to preference in having a smaller car to what you get for the money spent.

In the end, overall, the S will still be better. It's going to get the newest tech first, the highest quality materials, and the best performance.
Also, as you go higher end models, in most cases, you don't get proportionate value for your money. Higher end models makes up by offering more prestige.

One of the reasons some of the folks who will be buying S would be be because its more exclusive and not mass market.
 
Also, as you go higher end models, in most cases, you don't get proportionate value for your money. Higher end models makes up by offering more prestige.

One of the reasons some of the folks who will be buying S would be be because its more exclusive and not mass market.
Absolutely!

In a matter of 2 years, there will be 500,000 clones of my $50,000 car.

Where as my dad's $90,000 S has 100,000 or so and it's been around for 4 years.
 
I think the S certainly has it's high end cache. I think the S and X will continue in some form with flattened growth numbers and good margins for the no compromise crowd. They will have the Jetsons features first too.

However for me the 3 will be the ultimate car. Having driven a couple of Mercedes and a BMW I was quite impressed with high end German luxury poured over incredible engineering. However the Nissan Leaf has made me happier in a little jack rabbit that never visited a gas station except for tire pressure and gum. I just can't drive it cross country or even on longer day trips after a few years.

It's half the cost of an S - important to a retiree. However regardless of price I will have a beautiful car - bigger than anything I've owned including a late 90's Camry. I will have to adjust up to its size. It will be quicker than I am comfortable with, AWD for the big hills I live on, and with auto safety and autopilot features I never dreamed of for most of my driving career. Lastly with a little luck one day it will chauffeur me around.
 
I think we need to be clear here --- the 3 is not and never will be a "better" car than the S.

Now at the individual buyer level there will be many factors that lead someone to say the 3 is better ranging from design to preference in having a smaller car to what you get for the money spent.

In the end, overall, the S will still be better. It's going to get the newest tech first, the highest quality materials, and the best performance.
Sure. But I'm pretty certain that a 2017 BMW 3-Series is a better car than a 1992 BMW 7-Series. The bar will continually be raised for the entire Tesla product line. Eventually, there will be a version of the Model ☰ that is 'better' for most than was a 2012 Model S or even today's 2017 Model S.
 
Absolutely!

In a matter of 2 years, there will be 500,000 clones of my $50,000 car.

Where as my dad's $90,000 S has 100,000 or so and it's been around for 4 years.
There's no move by Tesla to make any of their cars 'exclusive' as in being 'rare' vehicles at all. Tesla intends to make electric vehicles commonplace, ubiquitous, at all market levels. The only thing 'exclusive' about a Model S is its starting price, but having outsold all comers in combined individual sales for five years, I expect Tesla will want to continue that trend. It is other companies that might seek to limit production and availability of their 'exclusive' high end vehicles -- Ferrari, Lamborghini, Rolls-Royce, Bentley, and possibly Mercedes-Benz -- but definitely not Tesla. In a matter of two years, there will have been more of the Model S sold than there have been of AUDI A8, BMW 7-Series, Lexus LS, or Porsche Panamera in the past decade. Those others can be as 'exclusive' as they like, while their market share declines, and Tesla's rises.
 
There's no move by Tesla to make any of their cars 'exclusive' as in being 'rare' vehicles at all. Tesla intends to make electric vehicles commonplace, ubiquitous, at all market levels. The only thing 'exclusive' about a Model S is its starting price, but having outsold all comers in combined individual sales for five years, I expect Tesla will want to continue that trend. It is other companies that might seek to limit production and availability of their 'exclusive' high end vehicles -- Ferrari, Lamborghini, Rolls-Royce, Bentley, and possibly Mercedes-Benz -- but definitely not Tesla. In a matter of two years, there will have been more of the Model S sold than there have been of AUDI A8, BMW 7-Series, Lexus LS, or Porsche Panamera in the past decade. Those others can be as 'exclusive' as they like, while their market share declines, and Tesla's rises.
I would agree you with ... until the new Roadster drops.
 
Sure. But I'm pretty certain that a 2017 BMW 3-Series is a better car than a 1992 BMW 7-Series. The bar will continually be raised for the entire Tesla product line. Eventually, there will be a version of the Model ☰ that is 'better' for most than was a 2012 Model S or even today's 2017 Model S.
Couldn't agree more and it's why I wouldn't touch a used S over a new 3.
 
I would agree you with ... until the new Roadster drops.
I figure there are three main markets for two seaters: 1) Sportscars -- 'fun' cars to tool around in on the weekend or use as daily drivers; 2) Supercars -- extremely fun cars that are great in the Street Light Grand Prix and on mountain passes; 3) Hypercars -- ridiculously expensive limited edition vehicles that seek to bring the thrill of ultimate performance from the Track to the Road in a street legal fashion (if only just barely). Of these, only the third might need to be 'exclusive' in terms of having only a very few of them sold per year. At most, around 300... Perhaps only three dozen... Possibly less than ten. That is the Hypercar, at least, from a traditional automotive perspective.

Tesla has already said that the Model Y will be the last car to use the 'Model' designation. So, there will not be a 'Model R' (Supercar) or 'Model Z' (Hypercar) at all. But I had imagined the Model R to be something to compete with everything from a Chevrolet Corvette through a Porsche 911, while being priced to compete with everything from a Mazda Miata to an Alfa Romeo 4C. Similarly, the Model Z would have been a bargain, blowing the doors off cars that sell in the $1,000,000 to $10,000,000 range, while costing in the $200,000 to $300,000 range. And Tesla would sell as many of them as people wanted to buy with no limits on maximum numbering and no catering to collectors.

Tesla has already said they will not be building a car to offer below the Model ☰. I had hoped that would be something that was sort of a modern day analog to the Honda CR-X. Small, inexpensive, and extremely fun to drive, while being a fully electric two-seater. I would have priced such a car at around $25,000 and given it all the spunk necessary to frighten every Mini, Focus RS, and Cayman at Willow Springs. It would not be a slow car, but it would be something you wouldn't mind driving with the top open on a sunny day through the twisties on your favorite mountain road.

But unfortunately, the story is that people don't buy coupes, or two-seaters, because they don't want them. I think they could be made to want them, despite the arguments in favor of more 'ordinary' cars, if they were fully electric, and had a Tesla badge on them. I believe the world would be much more receptive of a new CR-X type vehicle than the Crossover/SUV crazy public would lead them to believe. Especially once gasoline hits "Six bucks a gallon! Please pay before you pump!"
 
My ideal tesla would be based on the Model 3, with some tweaks:
- Bit longer nose (big frunk)
- Bit longer butt (hello trunk)
- Model S rear roof line and hatch.
- extra screen behind the steering wheel
- space for extra double stacked battery module per the S, main screen worked into the dash

Now how much would that cost extra to make? Bit of extra aluminium and plastic. And we know batteries are cheap.
The 60 RWD version of this quasi-S I just wrote up, should cost no more than $40k, $5K extra.
In a small production run, yes, it would be quite expensive, but done in place of Model 3 over the past years, surely doable at the same margin as the 3 coming out now.

So the S does seem to offer a lower value to me than the 3, even the (new) base version S75D. Over double the price of a base Model 3. All you get is similar range, front wheel traction in winter or on the drag strip, qn extra screen and a bigger boot, pretty much. Not worth $40k extra. But, I can't really see myself putting a bike in the back of Model 3. Even my ancient Mazda 323F with flappy headlights asked for more after I tossed in two.
 
In my opinion, the S is not worth double on the base end of the 3. Taking that a step further, I am convinced that the Model 3 that I want with options bringing the car to somewhere in the mid to high $40s will be much better than a base Model S at $70k.

However, there are a few things that make the S "better".
  • It's size -- flagship sedans are always the biggest (see Mercedes S, Audi A8, and BMW 7).
  • Performance
  • Range
  • Appointments
  • Potential options
  • Exclusivity (Limited quanity in comparison)
It's all a matter of what you're looking for and what you're willing to spend. If you have the means to option out an S, then it's going to be substantially better than the 3.
I think this is spot on. I think part of the problem is that Tesla has got a lot of non-car-people interested in cars, and they don't really understand positioning and automotive market segments. In the beginning, it seemed like lots of EV journalists/enthusiasts thought the Model 3 was somehow going to be the flagship Tesla model, which of course is crazy.

Like any car maker, the biggest and best will be reserved for the top of the line models. Even if some of the stats are not too far apart, like range and 0-60 times of base models, the S and X will always have a nicer fit and finish - the kind of thing that can't be expressed in bullet-point. That's what people that buy $80k+ cars pay for. Take a test drive of a 7-series and 3-series back to back on the same route, and you'll be amazed how much more regal, comfortable, and road-owning the 7 feels. How do you translate those feelings into numbers? You don't, and that's what differentiates big expensive cars from the more entry level models. Add to that fancy tech that doesn't make its way to the cheaper cars, like air suspension and turning headlights, and you'll see the differences.
 
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