Is HW3 required to fix the problems with AP / EAP / NoA / AutoHighBeam / AutoWipers?

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#1
I've finally concluded NoA is useless as is today. There are situations it works. But in most situations it's pretty bad.

Merging is hazardous to your health.
Lane changes too slow on modest to heavy traffic (regardless of setting).
Phantom braking is only a matter of time before someone rear ends me.

Phantom Braking is probably my number one concern, and I don't see why a super computer is needed to fix it. Because you have zero control over it.

Auto High beam and Auto Wipers also depends on Neural Nets. They can work occasionally. But more often don't than do.

We did a 300 miles trip yesterday. I was driving. My wife was so stressed after the trip. I was trying to use NoA with confirm on, on 16.2 to see if it improved.
I'm yelling at the car, to change lane already. Finally had to "Jerk" it out of Auto Steer and change lanes myself.
It must have Phantom Braked 6 times. Most due to overpasses. We usually make this trip at night to our cabin. This was during the day, so I guess it could see the overpasses a lot better.
Driving at night usually has way less traffic too. In fact we were thinking of staying the night but I decided I rather not drive the car when lots of cars were on the road so we drove home 10PM to Midnight. It was actually a deciding factor !!

I think we can all assume things will get better and get better with HW3 (optimized HW3 code etc.).

But is HW3 required to fix phantom braking. Does it need more frames per second to recognize it's an overpass and not a Semi crossing the road ahead?

It's getting a little frustrating that my wife is starting to prefer we take the Jeep Summit (Extremely quite, Smooth as silk ACC, Auto Wipers perfect, Auto High Beam perfect, Blind Spot, rear cross path warning, not a Single Phantom Brake) to our Cabin instead of the Model 3.
How can I argue otherwise?

But honey it takes gas, I can't make a single argument positive about the tech in the Model 3.
 

Frully

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#2
I can't say I disagree with lots of those concerns...
I find lane changes far too cautious and often with NoA a bit obtuse (pulling out to pass when my exit is coming up).
Whenever I have passengers I move to my Chill profile as it makes autopilot a lot more smooth in traffic.
It might just be the architecture around here, but I basically never get phantom braking. Usually it's on smaller residential roads with parked cars on sweeping curves.

Unfortunately your guess is as good as ours. HW3 is surely going to improve the AP experience. Having 5x the amount of power leaves a lot of room to better calculate the things currently being done as well as adding more features. Time will have to tell.
 

Mr. Spacely

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#3
This is so odd to hear. I have only had mild phantom breaking a couple times. And with NOAP set to Mad Max, it changes lanes quickly and decisively. Maybe I'm just lucky but my car is pretty close to flawless...
 

Frully

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#4
This is so odd to hear. I have only had mild phantom breaking a couple times. And with NOAP set to Mad Max, it changes lanes quickly and decisively. Maybe I'm just lucky but my car is pretty close to flawless...
My understanding is the mad max setting for 'speed based lane changes' is how aggressively it chooses whether to pass or not - not how aggressively it performs the maneuver. "That person is 1% slower than me, go around", versus "that person is 10% slower than me, worth it to go around".
 

Frully

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#6
Mad Max speeds up its decision making as well. It isn't crazy and doesn't seem unsafe. Try it.
I found on mad max it just wanted to pass everyone - like I said often making bad decisions like wanting to pass out of the exit lane with only 1/4 mile to get back into that lane, when the person ahead of me is only doing 2km/hr less than me, and the passing lane traffic is only doing 5km/hr faster...so I won't be able to finish the pass and exit in time without some gratuitous suicide changes. It's not worth risking my windshield or the person I'm passing when the reasonable move was just waiting 14 seconds to exit.
 

JWardell

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#7
I'm not sure what you are expecting. NOA frankly does a lot better job than any other human that has only been driving for six months. It's downright impressive what it can do. OF COURSE it has a hard time with difficult situations, like merging into very competitive Massachusetts traffic. Just like any teenager. It probably works well in 90% of highways worldwide. But we live in a very special crazy driving place. Surely you must be aware and understanding of that. Surely you must be smart enough not to expect early versions of AI to be able to handle this stuff perfectly. Even experienced humans can't.

If you want a perfect experience from NOA, then only use it on open highways with light traffic. Have some patience and watch it improve slowly over the next year or two.

Wipers used to have issues just six months ago, now they work spectacularly, better than any previous auto-wiper-equipped car I've driven. Of course that's a much simpler situation. And of course there are still exceptions, such as light mist at night. But that should also be understandable, as those tiny drops are well below the resolution of images that are processed.

I honestly have never experienced phantom braking in over 9 months with plenty of AP use. Maybe it is a unique situation or calibration issue?

If you expect perfection from these beta early technologies, then please turn them off and wait a few years before you use them. Might as well also not use any humans to drive either, those computers are also prone to failure.
 

Ed Woodrick

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#8
I think that taking a chill pill may help a lot. Sure, NoA in heavy traffic isn't the best, but on a road trip it does work pretty well. The wipers and the headlights should be working fairly well now.

Everybody drives differently. The car drives differently than most people. You have to let the car drive and expect that it will be driving like a teenager. That means that you need to let it do its thing. That means that something that you think is too long, shouldn't be assumed that it is too long for the car.

Over the last 2 weeks, I've done four 500 mile trips and the vast majority on FSD. Lights, wipers, and lane changes all worked pretty much as expected. There were a few times that it may have braked, that's why my foot stays near the accelerator. There's a few time that it was trying to change lanes and I canceled. And there was a few times that it tried to change lanes, but with a quickly approaching car, I cancelled it.

If you kept yelling at the car, that may have been why the wife was so upset.

An I believe that there is a microphone in the car, the more you yell, the more it will fight back, just like a teenager.

Patience!
 

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#9
I've finally concluded NoA is useless as is today. There are situations it works. But in most situations it's pretty bad.

Merging is hazardous to your health.
Lane changes too slow on modest to heavy traffic (regardless of setting).
Phantom braking is only a matter of time before someone rear ends me.

Phantom Braking is probably my number one concern, and I don't see why a super computer is needed to fix it. Because you have zero control over it.

Auto High beam and Auto Wipers also depends on Neural Nets. They can work occasionally. But more often don't than do.

We did a 300 miles trip yesterday. I was driving. My wife was so stressed after the trip. I was trying to use NoA with confirm on, on 16.2 to see if it improved.
I'm yelling at the car, to change lane already. Finally had to "Jerk" it out of Auto Steer and change lanes myself.
It must have Phantom Braked 6 times. Most due to overpasses. We usually make this trip at night to our cabin. This was during the day, so I guess it could see the overpasses a lot better.
Driving at night usually has way less traffic too. In fact we were thinking of staying the night but I decided I rather not drive the car when lots of cars were on the road so we drove home 10PM to Midnight. It was actually a deciding factor !!

I think we can all assume things will get better and get better with HW3 (optimized HW3 code etc.).

But is HW3 required to fix phantom braking. Does it need more frames per second to recognize it's an overpass and not a Semi crossing the road ahead?

It's getting a little frustrating that my wife is starting to prefer we take the Jeep Summit (Extremely quite, Smooth as silk ACC, Auto Wipers perfect, Auto High Beam perfect, Blind Spot, rear cross path warning, not a Single Phantom Brake) to our Cabin instead of the Model 3.
How can I argue otherwise?

But honey it takes gas, I can't make a single argument positive about the tech in the Model 3.
The NOA and some features are far from perfect. They are still changing and sometimes they make one step forward and 2 steps back. I've had no problems with high beams and wipers in a while. I do understand the lane changes and phantom braking, they have a ways to go.

What I don't understand is that you are driving a car with the highest safety rating by the government and it can be perfectly driven without the EAP/NOA features engaged. Those features seem to be making you and your wife nervous. Maybe enjoy the car for what it is and drive it a bit the old fashioned way until they improve.

If you truly believe that "Phantom braking is only a matter of time before someone rear ends you" then why would you continue to use it. There was a crash of an X in CA sometime back where the driver was killed (the engineer from Apple.) He had told his friends and family how it didn't handle the split in the road, he knew that it didn't detect it well, but yet he continued to use it and not pay attention to or control it. Please use the features sensibly and safely as you see fit. Don't recognize that something doesn't behave in a way you think is unsafe and then complain about it later when it goes wrong.
 

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#10
The NOA and some features are far from perfect. They are still changing and sometimes they make one step forward and 2 steps back. I've had no problems with high beams and wipers in a while. I do understand the lane changes and phantom braking, they have a ways to go.

What I don't understand is that you are driving a car with the highest safety rating by the government and it can be perfectly driven without the EAP/NOA features engaged. Those features seem to be making you and your wife nervous. Maybe enjoy the car for what it is and drive it a bit the old fashioned way until they improve.

If you truly believe that "Phantom braking is only a matter of time before someone rear ends you" then why would you continue to use it. There was a crash of an X in CA sometime back where the driver was killed (the engineer from Apple.) He had told his friends and family how it didn't handle the split in the road, he knew that it didn't detect it well, but yet he continued to use it and not pay attention to or control it. Please use the features sensibly and safely as you see fit. Don't recognize that something doesn't behave in a way you think is unsafe and then complain about it later when it goes wrong.
I have some of those features in the Jeep too. It's "lane assist" is crap though (but it does not harm). But like a said. The Jeep is more relaxing and in some ways less likely to cause an accident.

Blind Spot is better. Beeps if Blinker is on and Car is in that path. So simple. I don't need to start an approach like in Model 3 before something happens.
Rear Cross Path Detection (Model 3 does not even have that). It's a really nice feature.
Auto Highbeam is flawless in the Jeep. A cop pulled over a friend with a Model 3 for "flashing his headlights". It's an absolute joke. It wildly varies with conditions.
I never shut auto high beam off on the Jeep, ever. Well except in fog. I consider it a safety feature to always light the road the best it can. For things like dear crossing etc.
It was so bad yesterday I had to shut if off, in fact I saved a teslacam video of it. Cleary many headlights facing me and behind many cars (up not too far) and it was on.

Auto Wipers, also a total joke on Model 3. Occasionally just the right amount of rain they work. They are horrible in light rain at night. I consider it a safety feature, I also have to keep off.
Jeep Auto wipers are not perfect but they are an order of magnitude better. Occasionally they go wild on light rain.

The highest safety rating is partly misleading in my opinion. First, weight matters. If I hit a suburban head on (I almost did once in the Jeep, Clipped Side Mirrors other car texting) in the "smallish" Model 3 vs my largish Jeep it's really a bit of a throw of dice which with fair better. They don't do those sort of tests. Now hitting a solid structure, sure the Model 3 would fair better. You should also state for any car, highest safety "in it's class". Just like these forums the Jeep Forum gets it's share of accident reports. Jeeps quite often faired extremely well.

Handling wise, I admit the Jeep is joke and that is probably the Model 3's biggest advantage.
But they have sedans with the same features. Like a Chrysler 300 would be a pretty safe, relaxing ride. As well as many other cars with even more advanced safety features, that work.

Also the whole NoA issues, phantom braking etc. I think raises the chances of causing an accident. I could skip using all the tech I suppose. Also they (government) don't test those things yet either (consumer reports did though). But that is partly why I bought the car, and it's seriously lacking right now. It's very "cool" and fun to show off. But in practice it's just not cutting it. That isn't really what this thread is about. Is HW3 required to fix it?

The only source that knows the best on how occupant fair in accidents, is the insurance companies. Problem is cost to repair and bodily injury are lumped together into one index that sets insurance rates. I'm not gonna let Tesla tell me it's the safest car. To be honest I'd much rather be in a Model S than Model 3 (despite Tesla rating it lower). Model S almost as good but a lot heavier.

The lane split issue is the LEAST of Auto Steer issues (and lane split is not really an NoA issue), but you have some control over that. I typically cover the same routes so I know where it struggles. Notice I didn't even complain about lane split. I'm complaining about things that are expected to work. I really want to use the Auto Steer. I can live without the brain dead NoA feature set.

But there seems no excuse for Phantom Braking going on this long. I don't think V8 had this issue. I think it started at V9 or V9 with NoA. It's possible they covered a catastrophic case of driving into something that could happen and they currently feel occasional phantom braking is worth the trade off until HW3. I don't know.

Even TACC is weak. Like I said I usually travel with less cars around and I can go any speed. But during heavier number cars (still moving quite fast) I was always behind someone (throttled by TACC). It's then I realized TACC isn't even up to par. It wasn't terrible. But I could see even some folks getting car sick from it. Again it's subtle. I have noticed it before but it wasn't usally a problem because it didn't go on for very long.

It's not that "NoA" has some features that don't work. As far as I'm concerned none of it works. It can't merge, it can't pass (goes to slow and then appears to look like you cut someone off because they were obviously gaining on you but it was just out of view and the car finally decides to change lanes, slowly to boot). It want's to pass because car in front is going 1 mph slower than the lane that is going 10 mph faster and there is no point is passing the car in front because you'll be in the exact same situation when you pass him. So it nags you over and over. So you slow your set speed and now a gap forms and cars start pulling in front. You end up being the cruise control. And on top of that it constantly "lunges" while sitting behind a car going slower than set speed. NoA works when NoA doesn't have to do anything (basically Auto Steer, which works extremely well except for phantom braking).

The Auto Steer works nice, even in heavy traffic because you have a lot of control. I know where it will struggle. I can do a lane change, initiated by me, most of the time it will do fine. I can handle the known splits or "extra wide lanes".

If they could just fix phantom braking I could deal with waiting for massive improvements needed elsewhere.

Is HW3 required to fix that is my question. There is no doubt in my mind that the NoA/AP/Weak BlindSpot/NoCrossPath/PhantomBreak/Poor AutoHighBeam/Poor Auto Wipe is clearly behind your typical $25K ICE car today. The Model 3 does a whole bunch of stuff that $25K cars don't do. But all though things are incomplete. And even the more basic stuff is incomplete along with it.

My wife has driven the Model 3. Not a ton, but enough. Used all the features. If she had her choice between her 2011 VWCC and Model 3. She'd pick her old VW.
I'd pick the Model 3. But I understand perfectly why she'd pick the VW.

Tesla needs to correct this NOW. Do we have to wait for HW3, because I think that could take a year.
 
Last edited:

Dogwhistle

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#11
You’ve discovered that NOA doesn’t work well in heavy traffic. Instead of re-wickering your whole trip, just do what I do and don’t use it in those situations. Basic lane-keeping EAP seems to be the least stressful to me, and I direct the lane changes. With the wife in the car, I pretty much just go full manual. Wish there was an option to override TACC and just engage dumb cruise control. Another phantom braking and I don’t think she’ll ride in the car again!

And as far as the comment of what can we expect, it has the driving level of a 16-yo with 6 mos experience; I’ve had a couple of those, driving with them was VERY stressful!
 

wst88

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#12
I've finally concluded NoA is useless as is today. There are situations it works. But in most situations it's pretty bad.

Merging is hazardous to your health.
Lane changes too slow on modest to heavy traffic (regardless of setting).
Phantom braking is only a matter of time before someone rear ends me.

Phantom Braking is probably my number one concern, and I don't see why a super computer is needed to fix it. Because you have zero control over it.

Auto High beam and Auto Wipers also depends on Neural Nets. They can work occasionally. But more often don't than do.
If these features, that are in BETA, are to stressful for you why don't you turn them off?
The expectiation that these features are not in development is not very fair. When we enable these feature we all become part of the development team for Tesla. Send in your Bug reports.

Honestly, 12.2 was one of the best version I have used.. Ran 3-4K miles and it made all of my trips far easier. 16.2 has some issues with sudden braking and over-reacting, you are correct.
 

DocScott

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#14
I'm not sure what you are expecting. NOA frankly does a lot better job than any other human that has only been driving for six months. It's downright impressive what it can do. OF COURSE it has a hard time with difficult situations, like merging into very competitive Massachusetts traffic. Just like any teenager. It probably works well in 90% of highways worldwide. But we live in a very special crazy driving place. Surely you must be aware and understanding of that. Surely you must be smart enough not to expect early versions of AI to be able to handle this stuff perfectly. Even experienced humans can't.

If you want a perfect experience from NOA, then only use it on open highways with light traffic. Have some patience and watch it improve slowly over the next year or two.

Wipers used to have issues just six months ago, now they work spectacularly, better than any previous auto-wiper-equipped car I've driven. Of course that's a much simpler situation. And of course there are still exceptions, such as light mist at night. But that should also be understandable, as those tiny drops are well below the resolution of images that are processed.

I honestly have never experienced phantom braking in over 9 months with plenty of AP use. Maybe it is a unique situation or calibration issue?

If you expect perfection from these beta early technologies, then please turn them off and wait a few years before you use them. Might as well also not use any humans to drive either, those computers are also prone to failure.
Maybe in your experience.

While I haven't tested NOA since a free trial back around 2018.50.6, it's clearly untrue that it does a lot better than any other human that has only been driving for six months. There are some pretty decent human drivers at that point. As well as the average teenager at that point? Maybe. But saying it's clearly better than a human at the same point is hyperbole.

Likewise, the wipers have gotten better, but for me they still don't work well. I drove today in the pouring rain, and that finally coaxed them off of an intermittent mode, but it still was far from the highest speed. How much heavier does it have to rain to trigger that?

I find most of the automation to be, on balance, helpful. But I do think Tesla should put a lot of focus on getting the non-beta automation features to work much better.
 

MelindaV

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#16
I've finally concluded NoA is useless as is today. There are situations it works. But in most situations it's pretty bad.

Merging is hazardous to your health.
Lane changes too slow on modest to heavy traffic (regardless of setting).
Phantom braking is only a matter of time before someone rear ends me.

Phantom Braking is probably my number one concern, and I don't see why a super computer is needed to fix it. Because you have zero control over it.

Auto High beam and Auto Wipers also depends on Neural Nets. They can work occasionally. But more often don't than do.

We did a 300 miles trip yesterday. I was driving. My wife was so stressed after the trip. I was trying to use NoA with confirm on, on 16.2 to see if it improved.
I'm yelling at the car, to change lane already. Finally had to "Jerk" it out of Auto Steer and change lanes myself.
It must have Phantom Braked 6 times. Most due to overpasses. We usually make this trip at night to our cabin. This was during the day, so I guess it could see the overpasses a lot better.
Driving at night usually has way less traffic too. In fact we were thinking of staying the night but I decided I rather not drive the car when lots of cars were on the road so we drove home 10PM to Midnight. It was actually a deciding factor !!

I think we can all assume things will get better and get better with HW3 (optimized HW3 code etc.).

But is HW3 required to fix phantom braking. Does it need more frames per second to recognize it's an overpass and not a Semi crossing the road ahead?

It's getting a little frustrating that my wife is starting to prefer we take the Jeep Summit (Extremely quite, Smooth as silk ACC, Auto Wipers perfect, Auto High Beam perfect, Blind Spot, rear cross path warning, not a Single Phantom Brake) to our Cabin instead of the Model 3.
How can I argue otherwise?

But honey it takes gas, I can't make a single argument positive about the tech in the Model 3.
in my experience, the only one of these items I find isn't ready (for me at least) is NoA under heavy traffic (which is most all of my commutes). I dont have any issue with auto highbeams, auto wipers, phantom braking, TACC or EAP lane keeping.
 

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#17
Perhaps the manual is out of date, but it currently states that TACC is a beta feature:

Note: Traffic-Aware Cruise Control is a BETA feature.
Calling everything Beta for 4 years is a cop out. Purely a legal maneuver. It’s Beta so you can’t sue me if it hurts you.

Are the Auto Wipers and Auto Highbeam Beta too?

So if I want it safe and reliable because it’s all Beta I have to dumb it down to a Corolla?

Can I turn off the “Traffic Aware” part and just have plain Jane ACC that isn’t Beta?
 

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#18
in my experience, the only one of these items I find isn't ready (for me at least) is NoA under heavy traffic (which is most all of my commutes). I dont have any issue with auto highbeams, auto wipers, phantom braking, TACC or EAP lane keeping.
Perhaps we just have different standards of Quality and you've never experienced Auto High beams that actually work flawlessly.

People keep saying stuff has improved. All these things vary a TON. Nothing has really "improved" since NoA was introduced. All the features have good days and bad days.
They have added some nice features but they never seem to finish anything.

Note how the High beams turned on at 16 seconds (which was almost ok), shortly after that it's NOT OK, but they remained on until 33 seconds (way to late to be turned off).
The worst is when they came back ON at 41 seconds, they should NOT be coming on here. Friend got pulled over for this. One of these days I will be too.

And please don't say they shouldn't be on, on the highway. I never need to shut mine off on my Jeep, ever. They are ready for when nobody is on the highway and the moment I get off the highway. Always lighting the road optimally every where I go and not blinding or flashing anyone. I don't have to think about it the conditions it will work. I don't forget to turn them on. They are just always there doing their job. They have lit up distance objects that gave me more time to avoid.

I repeat, do we need the HW3 super computer to get Auto Highbeam to work? I don't have videos for all the other blatant flaws on this really, really basic stuff. But many other things have similar quality issues.

 
Last edited:

Technical48

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#19
Perhaps the manual is out of date, but it currently states that TACC is a beta feature:

Note: Traffic-Aware Cruise Control is a BETA feature.
Calling everything Beta for 4 years is a cop out. Purely a legal maneuver. It’s Beta so you can’t sue me if it hurts you.

Are the Auto Wipers and Auto Highbeam Beta too?

So if I want it safe and reliable because it’s all Beta I have to dumb it down to a Corolla?

Can I turn off the “Traffic Aware” part and just have plain Jane ACC that isn’t Beta?
And there's the rub. TACC is a beta feature that can't be disabled. And TACC as currently implemented sucks. There's no other way to describe it.