Increasing suspension travel and/or lifting (was: Model 3 Offroaders!)

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Atraf

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I have to say, personally I want a Model Y lowered to make it more of a sporty hatchback...

But seeing i1Tesla's perfectly raised Y with high profile wheels made me realize it looks so much better and more naturally like an SUV with a bit more height!

In other words, Tesla picked something in the middle which when they should have offered both. Loving that @MountainPass offers both options, and I hope they see a big payoff for that!
Like this? :)
untitled-3-png.35115
 

orekart

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Need some undercarriage and bumper shields so we can haul ass over desert sagebrush. Model Y looks like a better candidate for this. Model 3 still sits kind of low at only 7 inches clearance, it would have to do some plowing and need a pretty serious set of skid plates / cow catchers.
 

Atraf

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Got a 35mm kit TÜV approved togheter with German company Delta 4x4, this is the result :) The rims are drilled with a -7,5mm et, just enough to fit 245/50r18 tires. Follow the car on Instagram https://www.instagram.com/technobingo/
Looks great and very well put together!

Would love to hear more about your setup (ex, are the light bars an off the shelf product or did you make it yourself? what's the width of your wheels? and why not mountain bikes =p?)
 

Atraf

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Got a 35mm kit TÜV approved togheter with German company Delta 4x4, this is the result :) The rims are drilled with a -7,5mm et, just enough to fit 245/50r18 tires. Follow the car on Instagram https://www.instagram.com/technobingo/
Looks great and very well put together!

Would love to hear more about your setup (ex, are the light bars an off the shelf product or did you make it yourself? what's the width of your wheels? and why not mountain bikes =p?)
To answer some of my own questions:

The tires are actually 235/50R18 not 245/50R18, putting them 0.3" larger diameter than what I assumed was the biggest that could fit (255/45R18) (instead of 0.6" bigger) that is ... assuming the offset doesn't push them to the side of the front upper knuckle (which I don't believe they do... but I'm not sure):
a54b756d-ad71-4aa5-bfa2-f4ac06cf032a-jpeg.35321


The exact tire is: Falken WILDPEAK A/T TRAIL TIRE
3a601018-26c2-427e-8fb4-e6ce60753708-jpeg.35322
18af023b-faff-4869-8024-56df36611d20-jpeg.35324

Since this tire only fits rims that are 6.5-8.5 and since the wheels (Delta4x4 Klassik_B Black) only come in either 8.5" or 9" we can safely assume that the above is using 8.5" which is the OEM width.
screen-shot-2020-08-30-at-7-46-19-pm-png.35323




The bicycles aren't typical (at all) nor made for road, they are for gravel routes (looks fitting for the landscape too), they are pricey but look to be of real good quality: Cannondale TopStone Carbon Lefty 1


Only remaining questions are:
1. Is the offset/ET really 7.5mm or is it stock-7.5mm (so 40-7.5 = 32.5mm)?
2. If the above answer is 7.5mm, do the tires stick out of the car front/rear?
3. What is the car's range with this setup?
4. Lightbar, DIY? what parts you bought? off shelf item? link?
 

Atraf

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Got a 35mm kit TÜV approved togheter with German company Delta 4x4, this is the result :) The rims are drilled with a -7,5mm et, just enough to fit 245/50r18 tires. Follow the car on Instagram https://www.instagram.com/technobingo/
Even more answers:
Lightbar is by https://www.rigidindustries.com/ found out via https://www.bilkomponenter.no/products/rigid-sr2-20-led-e-merket that was mentioned on his instagram comments here: instagram[]com/p/CERU08PF3BU/ the same Norwegian store sells a relay (https://www.bilkomponenter.no/products/styrestrom-alc-ekstralys-tesla-model-3) that makes so the light bar turns on whenever you turn on the car's normal high beam which is handy.

He also has mini lightbar in the front air intake grill:
https://www.bilkomponenter.no/products/lumens-cs20-ekstralyspakke-til-tesla-model-3
or
https://www.bilkomponenter.no/products/fjernlyspakke-tesla-model-3-lazer-18-linear-elite
or
https://www.bilkomponenter.no/products/fjernlyspakke-tesla-model-3-strands-nuuk

and his bike rack is by Thul: https://www.bilkomponenter.no/products/thule-raceway-2--sykkelstativ-for-bakluke --> https://www.thule.com/en-us/bike-rack/trunk-bike-racks/thule-raceway-pro-2-_-1685473

still confused about offset of his wheels ... maybe he actually meant negative 7.5mm as in -7.5mm to the point wheels and tires stick out and also entire wheel seats next to knuckle rather than under?

Also found another guy with Model Y that has same tires (same Falken model just different size):
https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/thr...sion-driving-impressions.201136/#post-4940458
Overall they are loud but not as loud as extreme winter tires ..

He mentioned that partially due to driving fast ... range is down 30%, this is inline with what we saw with i1 tesla's model y build .. really puts a damper on this setup ... not only is 200 mile range bad, you need to be able to get to your destination, stay there, and then go back, but the charging station is not at trail head so you then need to also make it to the super charger ... now add cold or hot weather and maybe your total range drops to 50%? what if you tow anything? 30%

This is cool concept and has very limited scope of viability but unless if you use a range extending trailer (connected via regain lines) ... with 2020 battery tech this is just not very practical.

If the car had 600 mile range than losing 100 miles for tires and another 200 miles for weather + towing would still give you ~150 miles to destination and 150 miles back ...

Cybertruck having 500 miles range despite weighing much more sort of gives me the impression that its based on tesla's next gen batteries already, it probably also has more of them ... perhaps if the Model 3 had them we could see similar range gains
 
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Atraf

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Got a 35mm kit TÜV approved togheter with German company Delta 4x4, this is the result :) The rims are drilled with a -7,5mm et, just enough to fit 245/50r18 tires. Follow the car on Instagram https://www.instagram.com/technobingo/
screen-shot-2020-09-08-at-12-30-10-pm-png.35426
screen-shot-2020-09-08-at-12-30-25-pm-png.35427


The guys delivers some good content, really loving this setup.

My remaining question is regarding fitment, it really does look like his offset is negative, at -7.5mm like he said. This should be far enough so that the front wheel will entirely dodge the front upper knuckle.
Which can be done but combined with all terrain tires and you are easily looking at 25% range lost. I wonder if the tires could still fit under the front upper knuckle, without the crazy offset (maybe going as much as ET30mm or ET25mm). Which will hopefully have much smaller range impact?

I suspect that its possible because the 255/45R18 are only shorter than this 235/50R18 by 0.15".... which is not a lot.

I suppose I should go check the gap between my tire and the knuckle then run diff on the tire sizes and see if the match checks out.
 

Atraf

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Found another one, pictures are of pretty poor quality but this are for sure the same 235/50R18 Falken all terrain tires.
I am trying to work out which offset does this wheels have, it looks far less extreme than the other setup, the other setup is negative ET-7.5mm which plays a major part in range loss.

Can anyone take a look at this picture and give a good guess to which offset this is?

Bonus video: Pretttyyyy sure that this is Franz Simon (Germany based TV show host) I just have no idea what show or what episode this is from, would have loved to see the full segment
1599853687785-png.35474

CCing @Mad Hungarian

another1a-png.35469
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another1b-png.35473
 
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Atraf

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They posted 3 more photos of the build:

119242824_182161163435615_1225801050814655257_n-jpg.35513
119235028_200263028114456_8658291738061505586_n-jpg.35514

Got to say, brushed stainless steel wrap does look nice
119439203_661866031201108_2695419909867941765_n-jpg.35515



I'm still looking into it ... will post an update if I find out more
 
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orekart

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@Atraf when it rains that car ain't going anywhere! I'd say those tires are gonna be stuck AF in the mud. Stick to the gravel roads if you get that package.
 

Atraf

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@Atraf when it rains that car ain't going anywhere! I'd say those tires are gonna be stuck AF in the mud. Stick to the gravel roads if you get that package.
I suppose it highly depends on the consistency of the mud, black glue mud? yeah its going to not move at all, mostly watery mud that provide some buoyancy? not an issue:

Water over mud:

Muddy water over gravel parking lot:

Deep water on paved roads:

Mid wheel water over concrete:

(Bonus, Y pulling a boat out of water:"

And X going through a flooded street on live TV:
https://www.instagram.com/p/CEPrvq0H9zm
)

And all of the above are supposedly with at best all season tires, not lift or all terrain tires.

That said, I plan to stick to pretty much dry dirt and gravel roads, no water or mud :)
 
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orekart

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Different car. Stock configuration Model Y is pretty competent IMO at least as much as any similar size Subaru. It's exactly the difference in ride height and wheelbase between a vehicle stuck-in and one that makes it through... from experience with Subaru's and a Model 3 anyhow. Open invitation anyone with a stock suspension/wheels Model Y (maybe some different tires if you want) wants to go mudding around I'll bring the orekart and we can compare :)
 

Atraf

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Okay, the 235/50R18 Falken
Different car. Stock configuration Model Y is pretty competent IMO at least as much as any similar size Subaru. It's exactly the difference in ride height and wheelbase between a vehicle stuck-in and one that makes it through... from experience with Subaru's and a Model 3 anyhow. Open invitation anyone with a stock suspension/wheels Model Y (maybe some different tires if you want) wants to go mudding around I'll bring the orekart and we can compare :)
The first four videos are Model 3? only the last two are different cars.

It's starting to look like the all terrain tires might not work out after all, despite some (at least 2 as far as I was able to find out) people doing it: 27.3" diameter seems to be just a little to much for the front, might clear cold but not when its hot :\ (+centrifugal at high speed will definitely push it over the threshold) updates to follow.
 

Mad Hungarian

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Found another one, pictures are of pretty poor quality but this are for sure the same 235/50R18 Falken all terrain tires.
I am trying to work out which offset does this wheels have, it looks far less extreme than the other setup, the other setup is negative ET-7.5mm which plays a major part in range loss.

Can anyone take a look at this picture and give a good guess to which offset this is?

Bonus video: Pretttyyyy sure that this is Franz Simon (Germany based TV show host) I just have no idea what show or what episode this is from, would have loved to see the full segment
View attachment 35474
CCing @Mad Hungarian

View attachment 35469 View attachment 35470 View attachment 35471 View attachment 35472 View attachment 35473
Hmmm, if those are 235/50R18's on a non-Performance car, then my guess is the offset is somewhere around +30.
 

Atraf

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Hmmm, if those are 235/50R18's on a non-Performance car, then my guess is the offset is somewhere around +30.
You are correct @Mad Hungarian I just got confirmation, 18x8.5 ET+30mm.

I also reached out to Falken, Continental and Michelin regarding how much can we expect their tires to expend during usage (~100mph, ambient 90f etc). Falken and Michelin did not respond, Continental forward the question to their engineering team and their answer was this:
screen-shot-2020-09-17-at-2-50-05-pm-png.35556


As far as I know 693.166mm is the point of contact of front upper knuckle, thus, even though 255/45R18 fits without rubbing on 18x9" ET+30mm, it will rub on high speed, and the same goes for 235/50R18 on 18x8.5" ET+30mm.
Sadly it looks like 245/45R18 is probably the largest you can go without rubbing, the alternative is crazy offset/spacers and/or super thing (215) tires in order to "dodge" the upper knuckle ... but this is terrible for traction.

Tesla cars are so strong you might not even notice the "breaking" (pretty sure that there was a story posted here long time ago on some Model X that had brakes that were always engaged ... people still drove them just fine unaware ..) but one thing you will notice is range. easily 30%+ range loss for knuckle rubbing.

This might need to find its way into tire guides.... tires expand due to heat and centrifugal forces.





Wish Tesla made one (and raced it / competed with it), would surly drive innovation (and would be hella cool to watch).
Sort of what I was aiming for but ... a more down to earth / less extreme version :), definitely nice to see that someone pretty much done it.
 

orekart

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Someone actually did it, someone built a Safari edition of the Model 3 (based on AWD LR variant):


Tires used are (probably, not sure at this time):
Cooper Tire DISCOVERER AT3 4S 265/60R18
... or 235/60R17

Looks stunning, wish they shared more info on what they done.
View attachment 35545 View attachment 35546 View attachment 35551 View attachment 35552 View attachment 35553 View attachment 35549 View attachment 35548 View attachment 35547 View attachment 35554 View attachment 35550
It's not even dirty yet... and where's the larger-than-life giant spoiler wing? No fake frunk clips?

You might even be able to go full lock on the steering without interference... unacceptable!

We're close, but not there yet. Try harder. We've got some catching up (with the Subaru WRX modders and pickup truck weenies) to do.
 

Atraf

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Got a response from Michelin and an update from Continental:
Continental: the wider the rim is (ex 9.0J instead of 8.5J) the lesser the effect would be,
My take: Since they only test some tire sizes on some rim sizes I don't have data for 18x9J so its entirely possible that 255/45R18 works on 18" x 9J with ET+30mm but it is also possible that it doesn't, on 8.5J the expansion takes you from 27" to 27.4.4" and my measurement shows that you would be rubbing beyond 27.3" (and since 235/50R18 starts at 27" cold AND using 8.5J [max supported size according to Falken's datasheet] it is DEFINITELY not a good fit and probably why owner sees 30% range loss).

Michelin: We do not provide this data to the public, it is confidential.
My take: what a load of crap, what a primary school level of excuse, and its not even a good one, look, they might not have it as they probably don't test every single supported rim size for every tire that they make (probably...), but to say its confidential while anyone with access to dyno can easily test it (or ... with a sheet of white paper and some tape ... or a well positioned camera ... or just feel..... if you went and you bought what you thought worked and then you tracked it and felt rubbing then well now you know... so since people will find out anyways, why hide it?
Their logic is to just follow what the car manufacturer recommends and not to ask too many questions ...
 

Mad Hungarian

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Got a response from Michelin and an update from Continental:
Continental: the wider the rim is (ex 9.0J instead of 8.5J) the lesser the effect would be,
My take: Since they only test some tire sizes on some rim sizes I don't have data for 18x9J so its entirely possible that 255/45R18 works on 18" x 9J with ET+30mm but it is also possible that it doesn't, on 8.5J the expansion takes you from 27" to 27.4.4" and my measurement shows that you would be rubbing beyond 27.3" (and since 235/50R18 starts at 27" cold AND using 8.5J [max supported size according to Falken's datasheet] it is DEFINITELY not a good fit and probably why owner sees 30% range loss).

Michelin: We do not provide this data to the public, it is confidential.
My take: what a load of crap, what a primary school level of excuse, and its not even a good one, look, they might not have it as they probably don't test every single supported rim size for every tire that they make (probably...), but to say its confidential while anyone with access to dyno can easily test it (or ... with a sheet of white paper and some tape ... or a well positioned camera ... or just feel..... if you went and you bought what you thought worked and then you tracked it and felt rubbing then well now you know... so since people will find out anyways, why hide it?
Their logic is to just follow what the car manufacturer recommends and not to ask too many questions ...
You know you might still be able to get away with the 255/45R18 at +30 because the bulk of the expansion is going to happen at the center of the tire, not the shoulder where we're concerned about knuckle interference. I also think that max service diameter number is likely achieved at the tire's top rated speed, which you realistically aren't going to be reaching too often unless you're planning to track the car (or risk some big tickets :)). I'm going to the office this aft and I'll grab one of the ETRTO manuals and see if I can get any more details for you on that.
But I think it might work, especially if you use the 9.0" width to better stabilize carcass.