Growth of CCS charging network in Europe

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Ecyrd

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#2
CCS specification forbids adapters. That's why you're not seeing them, nor will you see them in the future, unless someone deliberately decides to ignore the specifications - and I just wouldn't trust anyone willing to ignore safety with high-voltage, high-amp systems.

Though, considering that Tesla is a member of CharIn, the CCS specification body, the extra-large port in Model 3, and the new charging port on Chinese Model S, I'm pretty sure a direct CCS connector for EU is in the works.
 

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#3
More on EU charging network growth. Don’t know if it will be CCS though likely.

 

Ecyrd

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#4
EU directives says everything must be CCS from now on. So yeah, it's gonna be CCS. Interestingly, it may also mean that Tesla will have to adopt CCS in Superchargers, because if i'm reading the directive right, *all* new DC fast charging must be using CCS, regardless of whether it's reserved for a single carmaker only. Then again, adopting CCS would give Tesla the ability to go to 350 kW or above in SCs...
 

Michael Russo

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#5
Recent update on the growing availability of CCS fast charging on our European shores... including some up to 100 kw!
Where is that T≡SLA/CCS adapter?!

 

Michael Russo

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#7
CCS standard specifically forbids adapters. So it's either a CCS socket in a car or no CCS at all.
Wow. Did not know that. Assertive, uh?!

That’s kind of a bummer unless every EV carmaker adopts that. A long shot?
 

Ecyrd

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#8
Wow. Did not know that. Assertive, uh?!

That’s kind of a bummer unless every EV carmaker adopts that. A long shot?
Well, CCS was mostly designed by German carmakers to ensure that they get a level playing field in European markets, and successfully lobbied it within the EU, based on the premise that it's a good idea that consumers don't have to worry about different charging solutions. And also to stop Supercharger from becoming a de-facto standard that they might have to license at some point and would have no control over.

However, I'm not saying it's necessarily a bad thing. If you look at the adoption of the cell phones, the fact that Europe mandated the GSM standard (and did not allow competing standards in Europe) did create a very nice, competitive operator field, a huge adoption curve and much lower charges than elsewhere in the world for a few years. EU has a tendency to create a short-term inconvenience for early adopters to make break silos to ensure competition a few years down the road. This pisses off people and especially early adopters, but is probably a very good idea down the road if you think of large-scale adoption.

So now all charge points above 3.7 kW MUST have the Mennekes connector available, and all charge points above 22 kW MUST have a CCS connector available (if the charge point is available to the public, even if restricted to a single car brand). You can still add proprietary connectors as an option, but one of those two needs to be there.
 

Michel Zehnder

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#9
So now all charge points above 3.7 kW MUST have the Mennekes connector available, and all charge points above 22 kW MUST have a CCS connector available (if the charge point is available to the public, even if restricted to a single car brand). You can still add proprietary connectors as an option, but one of those two needs to be there.
So you're saying that all SC's deployed in EU from now on have CCS? Somehow I doubt that. Or am I missinterpreting what you're saying?
 

Ecyrd

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#10
So you're saying that all SC's deployed in EU from now on have CCS? Somehow I doubt that. Or am I missinterpreting what you're saying?
You are not misinterpreting. There have been no Superchargers opened in Germany recently, apparently exactly for this reason. However, the interpretation and inclusion of the directive into local legislation is not a straightforward process, so there may be still some wiggle room in many countries. But the aim of the directive is clear - no Superchargers in Europe anymore without CCS in every stall. Of course, Tesla is under no obligation to actually offer CCS charging to other cars, or to even include a CCS connector in a Tesla, but a CCS connector is still required.

It's no accident that the Model 3 charge port is large enough to accommodate a CCS connector...
 

Michael Russo

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#11
You are not misinterpreting. There have been no Superchargers opened in Germany recently, apparently exactly for this reason. However, the interpretation and inclusion of the directive into local legislation is not a straightforward process, so there may be still some wiggle room in many countries. But the aim of the directive is clear - no Superchargers in Europe anymore without CCS in every stall. Of course, Tesla is under no obligation to actually offer CCS charging to other cars, or to even include a CCS connector in a Tesla, but a CCS connector is still required.

It's no accident that the Model 3 charge port is large enough to accommodate a CCS connector...
Interesting. So basically what you're saying is that, if only for Germany (Europe's largest car market undoubtedly), Model 3s destined to Europe should be retrofitted with a CCS connector or it would be restricted to previous SCs for fast charging?

So now all charge points above 3.7 kW MUST have the Mennekes connector available, and all charge points above 22 kW MUST have a CCS connector available (if the charge point is available to the public, even if restricted to a single car brand). You can still add proprietary connectors as an option, but one of those two needs to be there.
Is this a German law or an EU directive and what is it passed, if you know?
 

Ecyrd

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#13
Interesting. So basically what you're saying is that, if only for Germany (Europe's largest car market undoubtedly), Model 3s destined to Europe should be retrofitted with a CCS connector or it would be restricted to previous SCs for fast charging?
Well, the directive is written in a way that you MAY offer other forms of charging as well (like a Supercharger connector or a ChaDeMo connector) in addition to CCS, so any new Superchargers would have both the old connector (for old Teslas) and a CCS connector. But a CCS socket on Model 3 would make a lot of sense, especially since they need to add the CCS connectors on the Superchargers anyway. We have not of course seen European Model 3s yet.
 

Ecyrd

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#15
I'm sure they are planning something. It's not like they can start completely ignoring EU.

Note that the permits for these stations may have been applied for before the cutoff date.
 

Michael Russo

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#16
To all our European friends, two recent & informative Elektrek articles talking to the now well underway development alternative charging networks - I prefer to call it complementary, providing the appropriate T≡SLA to CCS adapter can be found (unless EU T≡SLAs in the future are adapted for CCS accordingly, which would make sense...).

1. https://electrek.co/2018/02/09/ultra-fast-charging-network-europe-nissan-renault/
which contains this detailed on ‘Ionity’, the one announced in earlier posts on this thread:
2. https://electrek.co/2018/02/06/map-ionity-ultra-fast-charging-network/

In the latter, these sections caught my attention:
They are planning 400 stations with a capacity of up to 350 kW across Europe by 2020. They started work on the first 20 stations last year and they plan to hit a total of 100 stations this year.
The stations will be installed along highways and they will focus on enabling long-distance travel – much like Tesla’s Supercharger network.
Most stations are first expected to have a capacity of 150 kW, which should be up in time for the first electric vehicles capable of hitting that charge rate coming to market.’
‘Tesla is finally seeing some decent charging network competition – though they are already almost at 400 stations in Europe and they plan to double that by the time Ionity gets to 400 ’...

Interesting info. 2020 will be an exciting year, even more so as we’ll all have our Model 3 by then!! :cool:
 

Michael Russo

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#17
Note that, in the complementary article on Ionity plans, embedded in this other report on Dutch group FastNed’a ‘hyperchargers’... (175-350 kW), you can find a mention of 400 Ionity charging stations across Europe by.... 2020!!

 

Rich Nuth

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#18
My reading of the directive is that multiple plug types are allowed on a charging station. The only thing not allowed are proprietary-only charging stations. So, Tesla could easily start installing superchargers with CCS and Tesla cables to meet the requirements. This would mean, though, that Tesla would have to figure out the billing of non-Telsa vehicles.

The interesting aspect of the directive seems to be a way to lock Tesla out of the market. Given that Tesla is a significant player in the EU market, it seems anti-competitive to not allow the current Tesla superchargers, yet allow CCS only chargers without Tesla plugs as a secondary plug.
 

Model3GER

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#19
Well, CCS was mostly designed by German carmakers to ensure that they get a level playing field in European markets, ..... And also to stop Supercharger from becoming a de-facto standard that they might have to license at some point and would have no control over.
First paragraph: the german pushed it, but all the European OEM followed suit. As you stated later on, this is one of the few good things about the EU.
Second paragraph is a conspiracy theory. Tesla uses a Typ2 plug for DC, while Typ2 is regularly used for AC charging. With those high amps planned, it kinda makes sense to split it.

You are not misinterpreting. There have been no Superchargers opened in Germany recently,
Not true. There is at least one new SC in Germany.


In general Tesla faces stiff headwinds in Germany. Either a plug-exchange at SC or limited access is in order. Since it is "only" Germany, which is enforcing the EU laws that way, I think Tesla will keep everything and just build some barriers at new locations. They are very lucky, that Germany already is covered pretty good.