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Dash

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#22
Just checked again, because a few days ago, it was still 2018 .. but yeah, same here. Early 19.
That was to be expected - like Michael said - based on calculations with 5000 cars per week by mid 2018, but still.
I had my hopes that the European cars come from the Amsterdam factory and that they start early enough, but these hopes are gone now, too.
My Harrison has to do the job at least another year, as it seems.
 

Michael Russo

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#23
Just checked again, because a few days ago, it was still 2018 .. but yeah, same here. Early 19.
That was to be expected - like Michael said - based on calculations with 5000 cars per week by mid 2018, but still.
I had my hopes that the European cars come from the Amsterdam factory and that they start early enough, but these hopes are gone now, too.
My Harrison has to do the job at least another year, as it seems.
Just for accuracy, you are probably referring to the Tilburg assembly plant in the Netherlands. We have no confirmation on the European supply plans remember... Let's be patient... :)
 

Marcumar

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#24
Didn't really believe we would get M3 in Europe in 2018 after the last production delay. Still sad to see it in my account. More time to save money. :(

I think they need to hurry to ship it to Europe. VAG will try to beat Tesla's price with similar or smaller cars, even if they loose money with them:

"I.D. is a highly automated electric car that will cover a distance of 400 to 600 kilometres on a single battery charge. The production version of the I.D. is due to be launched in 2020 at a price on a par with comparably powerful and well-equipped Golf."
(http://www.volkswagen.co.uk/about-us/concept-cars/volkswagen-id)

Up until now it's vaporware, but who knows...
 

Michael Russo

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#25
(...)
I think they need to hurry to ship it to Europe. VAG will try to beat Tesla's price with similar or smaller cars, even if they loose money with them:

"I.D. is a highly automated electric car that will cover a distance of 400 to 600 kilometres on a single battery charge. (...)
(http://www.volkswagen.co.uk/about-us/concept-cars/volkswagen-id)


Up until now it's vaporware, but who knows...
VAG is mostly talk. After all they recently have become known for, they’re on my black list.
And even here. Remember quoted range for ID here is on NEDC, so take at least 33% off...

WLTP is the new kid in town!!
 

Marcumar

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#26
VAG is mostly talk. After all they recently have become known for, they’re on my black list.
And even here. Remember quoted range for ID here is on NEDC, so take at least 33% off...

WLTP is the new kid in town!!
I also wouldn't buy a car from them anymore. They gased monkeys and students, wtf.

WLTP isn't that accurate either, temperature and load is still far from real world driving conditions. Hybrids will still look better on paper than they really are.
 

MichelT3

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#27
I hope you don't mind me joining you, coming from The Netherlands. After all, we're (nearly) all EU-citizens.

To be honest, the delay didn't surprise me. Seeing the extended delay in production ramp up. Apparently needing a complete new production line for the GigaFactory, which is around now being shipped from Germany to Fremont. Add to that the way recent US owners are given preference over non-owners. Which will be repeated for all new versions, which probably will come out before the first cars are shipped to Europe.
In my view this means that we may be very glad in we get our Model 3 in Europe in the first half of 2019. But I rather expect it will be end 2019, or even 2020...

FYI, there is an assembly factory in Tilburg. The office of EU-headquarters is in Amsterdam.
At the Tilburg factory they join shells, motors, fluids and battery packs, of Models S and X. This way they save transport and import costs. It's not clear yet, but there are serious suspicions that Model 3 will also get final assembly in Tilburg. The factory has been extended the pasts months.
 

Michel Zehnder

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#29
Didn't really believe we would get M3 in Europe in 2018 after the last production delay. Still sad to see it in my account. More time to save money. :(

I think they need to hurry to ship it to Europe. VAG will try to beat Tesla's price with similar or smaller cars, even if they loose money with them:

"I.D. is a highly automated electric car that will cover a distance of 400 to 600 kilometres on a single battery charge. The production version of the I.D. is due to be launched in 2020 at a price on a par with comparably powerful and well-equipped Golf."
(http://www.volkswagen.co.uk/about-us/concept-cars/volkswagen-id)


Up until now it's vaporware, but who knows...
Yeah, the I.D... The first one they launch in 2020 looks a bit weird to me. It does look better than many other electric cars though, but still weird. I think established brands try too hard to "create something new" or unique, that they just keep forgetting about making a decent car that also has a decent look. The BMW i3 looks ugly, too, and all these "concepts" (a.k.a. Vaporware) they seem to constantly unveil makes me cringe. Why would anyone buy these ugly things? I know the I.D. should be the successor of the Golf, but they would be way better off in designing a new verhicle from the ground up, AND make it look VERY similar to the Golf. With decent specs this could very much be a Model 3 killer then (even if it's not exactly the same class of vehicle), Oh, did I mention it? The I.D. seems to have suicide doors! :)

TLDR; Make an electric car that still looks like a "normal" car, and your odds to succeed are much bigger :)
 

Marcumar

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#30
Yeah, the I.D... The first one they launch in 2020 looks a bit weird to me. It does look better than many other electric cars though, but still weird. I think established brands try too hard to "create something new" or unique, that they just keep forgetting about making a decent car that also has a decent look. The BMW i3 looks ugly, too, and all these "concepts" (a.k.a. Vaporware) they seem to constantly unveil makes me cringe. Why would anyone buy these ugly things? I know the I.D. should be the successor of the Golf, but they would be way better off in designing a new verhicle from the ground up, AND make it look VERY similar to the Golf. With decent specs this could very much be a Model 3 killer then (even if it's not exactly the same class of vehicle), Oh, did I mention it? The I.D. seems to have suicide doors! :)

TLDR; Make an electric car that still looks like a "normal" car, and your odds to succeed are much bigger :)
I'm actually ok with EVs looking a bit different, but the recent BMW concept is just plain ugly and unrealistic:

VW's head of design Klaus Bischoff released some details of the production version of the ID to autoexpress.co.uk. They also have two pictures of a red one, that might be rendered by the magazine, but look more Golf-like.
http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/volkswagen/97043/new-vw-id-electric-hatchback-set-for-2019-launch-date

Tesla clarified that they don't need the new production line made in Germany for reaching 2500units/week, but increasing production after that.
https://electrek.co/2018/02/09/tesla-clarifies-model-3-production/

Bottom line, we really can't do anything to speed up deliveries of Model 3 to Europe. When my delivery window has arrived, I will compare the different EVs that are available and choose the best fit and best value for money. Chances are high that'll be Model 3 :)
 
Last edited:

Michel Zehnder

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#32
VW's design Klaus Bischoff released some details of the production version of the ID to autoexpress.co.uk. They also have two pictures of a red one, that might be rendered by the magazine, but look more Golf-like.
http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/volkswagen/97043/new-vw-id-electric-hatchback-set-for-2019-launch-date
Yes, that picture there does look better. However it still somehow reminds me of the i3.. these short noses are just awkward for me to look at. I guess there's a reason why Tesla's have "normal" long noses... :)
 

Marcumar

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#33
Yes, that picture there does look better. However it still somehow reminds me of the i3.. these short noses are just awkward for me to look at. I guess there's a reason why Tesla's have "normal" long noses... :)
It's also a lot of wasted space and dangerous to pedestrians. Teslas have a frunk, but most other EVs have gaping holes where the combustion engine would've been. Don't now what VW plans to put between the front wheels, maybe the defeat devices :D
 
Last edited:

Konstantinos Kostis

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#34
VAG is mostly talk. After all they recently have become known for, they’re on my black list.
And even here. Remember quoted range for ID here is on NEDC, so take at least 33% off...

WLTP is the new kid in town!!
Actually NEDC to real life (e. g. EPA) is a factor of 0.75 (so 25% off). Renault ZOE 400 km NEDC, ca. 300 km real life (in summer!).
All provided you don't drive your car like you stole it (had to quote Bjørn Nyland here). This also works with my 22 kWh ZOE.
If you go from real life values to NEDC you need to addd 33%. Maybe you got the direction mixed up?

Also is NEDC not phased out by now? Definitely within this year it has major implications in Germany.

http://www.bundesfinanzministerium....l/Themen/Zoll/2017-05-10-zoll-kfz-steuer.html
 

MichelT3

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#35
VW's design Klaus Bischoff released some details of the production version of the ID to autoexpress.co.uk. They also have two pictures of a red one, that might be rendered by the magazine, but look more Golf-like.
http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/volkswagen/97043/new-vw-id-electric-hatchback-set-for-2019-launch-date
I like this car. We have to keep in mind that concept cars by the tradition industry tend to be 'far out' models, where Tesla tries to stay as close to the final production model.
If this (render of? a) prototype will be finished into a production model, it probably will look even more middle of the road.
I'd prefer if it kept a remarkable design, which Tesla also has.

What interests me most is the chrome 'side marking' on the front wing. It almost looks as if there are back and forward looking camera's integrated, similar to in the side blinkers of Tesla AP2. Is VAG also working on AP?

Let's never forget that we have Tesla to thank for the current transition in a part of the traditional car industry.
 
Last edited:

Michael Russo

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#36
Actually NEDC to real life (e. g. EPA) is a factor of 0.75 (so 25% off). (...)
If you go from real life values to NEDC you need to addd 33%. Maybe you got the direction mixed up?

Also is NEDC not phased out by now? Definitely within this year it has major implications in Germany.

http://www.bundesfinanzministerium....l/Themen/Zoll/2017-05-10-zoll-kfz-steuer.html
My bad, Konstantinos, I knew it was significant and was actually shooting from the hip, based on a recent article about an upcoming EV (maybe it was the Hyundai Kona), which was said to have, in its larger battery configuration, 500 kms range under NEDC, yet 350 under the new norm WLTP, which I assume is much more accurate and similar to EPA...
 

MichelT3

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#40
Point taken. But your "State/Province::
" does not disprove my point--about Americans' driving habits. :) For your driving habits, I salute you, sir!
Sober driving habits and German drivers are things which don't equalise in my mind. They love doing 100 mph whenever possible, 'normal/advised speed' in Germany is 80 mph.
Of course there are exceptions...