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JeffC

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You’ve mentioned this a few times. What do you mean by this?
Entropy is a measure of energy and therefore information within a system. It may not be possible to have enough information within a system of vehicles driving to solve a problem like fully autonomous driving. Same thing applies to artificial general intelligence, but probably more so, since its a much larger, more general problem.
 
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RoccoX

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Why do you want HW3?
Hey M3OC Rules, while I don’t have any proof, I do feel that zero new code is being written for HW2.5, and some of the quirks of NoA just drive me nuts. My thought is all of the work being done for FSD will cascade down to NoA and even basic autopilot. It makes sense to just have one code base and toggle features on and off, so the vision improvements, etc, will help NoA perform more reliably. I will also likely purchase FSD outright in the next year or two depending on how it progresses, so at that point the $1,000 becomes a wash anyways.
 

DocScott

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I just pulled the trigger on requesting the hardware upgrade from 2.5 to 3.0 for my 2018 M3.

A few observations:

  • Neither the app nor the browser worked quite the way it should. Requesting a subscription told me I needed a hardware upgrade, and then gave me a button to push to request the hardware upgrade, but the button didn't work. Instead, I had to request a service appointment, and then choose upgrade FSD hardware as the reason.
  • The app gave me a SC appointment. That doesn't mean mobile service couldn't do this for someone somewhere, but in my case they wanted me to bring it in. And since I recently got my tires rotated in my driveway, I know the mobile service in my area is able to do a lot.

Why am I getting the upgrade?

For one, I'd like to "future-proof" my car. For $1000, I'll be glad not to be in a small minority of M3s with the older computer. I feel like not upgrading is risking being in a neglected group somehow down the road.

I do wonder if AP will work better now with the new computer. The new FSD computer has been around for a couple of years now; it would be surprising if AP isn't taking advantage of it somehow. Once I get the upgrade, I'll try to keep an eye out to see if I notice any performance changes. If it shows up anywhere, it might show up with the visualization having an easier time picking up multiple objects--particularly pedestrians, cyclists, and parked cars on the shoulder. It won't be a perfect experiment, because I'm sure they'll push a new firmware while they're at it, but it will still be worth monitoring.
 
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FRC

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I do wonder if AP will work better now with the new computer. The new FSD computer has been around for a couple of years now; it would be surprising if AP isn't taking advantage of it somehow. Once I get the upgrade, I'll try to keep an eye out to see if I notice any performance changes. If it shows up anywhere, it might show up with the visualization having an easier time picking up multiple objects--particularly pedestrians, cyclists, and parked cars on the shoulder. It won't be a perfect experiment, because I'm sure they'll push a new firmware while they're at it, but it will still be worth monitoring.
My FSD driving experience has changed negligibly since I got HW3 about 1 1/2 years ago. So I seriously doubt you'll notice a serious difference with AP. However, you might have a valid point regarding future-proofing.
 
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Malaromane

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I know I am likely dreaming, but does anyone know if one were to pay the $1,000 to upgrade to the HW3 computer, then later on decided to purchase FSD, would that $1,000 be deducted from the FSD price?
I did just chat with Tesla and they are claiming that the price of the upgrade will be subtracted from the FSD cost if you purchase. I asked the poor lady a few times just to be 110% sure, and she said for me after HW3 is installed my FSD purchase price will be $4,000 (I have EAP). I don’t want to be the first to try and see if she is correct, but if this is confirmed I will upgrade my hardware ASAP :)
If this were true, would it not stand to reason that vehicles already equipped with HW3 should be able to purchase FSD for $1000 less than vehicles that are still rocking HW2.5? But that doesn't seem to be the case.
 

M3OC Rules

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Hey M3OC Rules, while I don’t have any proof, I do feel that zero new code is being written for HW2.5, and some of the quirks of NoA just drive me nuts. My thought is all of the work being done for FSD will cascade down to NoA and even basic autopilot. It makes sense to just have one code base and toggle features on and off, so the vision improvements, etc, will help NoA perform more reliably. I will also likely purchase FSD outright in the next year or two depending on how it progresses, so at that point the $1,000 becomes a wash anyways.
I'm really glad you didn't say its 0.5 better. I don't disagree with your analysis but keep in mind you are speculating. I hope you're optimism that they will fix these things is right. But this has been right around the corner for over a year and a half. There is quite a bit of disappointment on these forums with Tesla not meeting expectations or promises. I guess I don't see the reason to upgrade the hardware or buying FSD before it actually gets you something worth upgrading for. Some it is now but its a personal decision.

The reason Tesla gave for switching everyone who purchased HW3 was due to supporting one code base so you're not speculating there. But they never said basic Autopilot or NOA would be left behind on HW2.5. That may seem like a logical extension but if they do I think there will be some pushback from those on HW2.5 and perhaps Tesla will offer them a better deal to upgrade. There are a lot of unknowns and the timing is anyone's guess, I mean 2 weeks. Does the new code fix the quirks or just add new ones? When will those get fixed?
 

DocScott

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If this were true, would it not stand to reason that vehicles already equipped with HW3 should be able to purchase FSD for $1000 less than vehicles that are still rocking HW2.5? But that doesn't seem to be the case.
No, because those cars got HW3 with the purchase of their car.

The rationale is that all Teslas were sold as having the hardware necessary for FSD. If a car was sold that didn't actually have the hardware necessary for FSD, there shouldn't be a net charge for a hardware upgrade necessary to get FSD.
 

DocScott

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My FSD driving experience has changed negligibly since I got HW3 about 1 1/2 years ago. So I seriously doubt you'll notice a serious difference with AP. However, you might have a valid point regarding future-proofing.
That's strange, since my AP experience has changed quite a bit, mostly for the better. In particular, when I'm on a section of road where two lanes turn to one, AP no longer suddenly re-centers, but instead follows a smooth trajectory forward, much like a person with.

Haven't you noticed changes like that as well?
 

M3OC Rules

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That's strange, since my AP experience has changed quite a bit, mostly for the better. In particular, when I'm on a section of road where two lanes turn to one, AP no longer suddenly re-centers, but instead follows a smooth trajectory forward, much like a person with.

Haven't you noticed changes like that as well?
How do you know the changes are only on HW3?
 
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JeffC

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My FSD driving experience has changed negligibly since I got HW3 about 1 1/2 years ago. So I seriously doubt you'll notice a serious difference with AP. However, you might have a valid point regarding future-proofing.
Edit: disregard, I misparsed your message.

That said, a comparison with today's driving code running on HW2.5 vs HW3 would probably give a better comparison.
 
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DocScott

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How do you know the changes are only on HW3?
They're not! The change I described is something I noticed on my HW 2.5 car.

My point is that AP has improved in the time since most FSD cars were upgraded. It has improved for HW 2.5 and for HW 3.0.

I don't think we have a lot of anecdotal evidence as to whether HW 3.0 behaves differently than HW 2.5 on current firmware. A lot of people upgraded more than a year ago, and didn't notice a change then. But there have been a lot of firmware updates since then, and a lot of subtle changes. So at this point, is there a difference between how AP behaves with 2.5 and 3.0? I don't think many people have given that even a subjective test.

I'll give another example of something that has changed pretty recently in my care with HW 2.5 and no FSD: pedestrian visualization. At some point, it started showing pedestrians walking--their legs moved, and it seemed to be trying to pay some attention to which way they were going. But it is very inconsistent as to whether it picks up pedestrians in the visualization. I suspect HW 3.0 is inconsistent picking that up right now too. But is it as inconsistent? Hard to say, unless for some reason you go back and forth between driving a HW 2.5 and a 3.0 car with firmware from the same era. The experience people had when they upgraded more than a year ago doesn't tell us anything about that.
 
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JeffC

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They're not! The change I described is something I noticed on my HW 2.5 car.

My point is that AP has improved in the time since most FSD cars were upgraded. It has improved for HW 2.5 and for HW 3.0.

I don't think we have a lot of anecdotal evidence as to whether HW 3.0 behaves differently than HW 2.5 on current firmware. A lot of people upgraded more than a year ago, and didn't notice a change then. But there have been a lot of firmware updates since then, and a lot of subtle changes. So at this point, is there a difference between how AP behaves with 2.5 and 3.0? I don't think many people have given that even a subjective test.

I'll give another example of something that has changed pretty recently in my care with HW 2.5 and no FSD: pedestrian visualization. At some point, it started showing pedestrians walking--their legs moved, and it seemed to be trying to pay some attention to which way they were going. But it is very inconsistent as to whether it picks up pedestrians in the visualization. I suspect HW 3.0 is inconsistent picking that up right now too. But is it as inconsistent? Hard to say, unless for some reason you go back and forth between driving a HW 2.5 and a 3.0 car with firmware from the same era. The experience people had when they upgraded more than a year ago doesn't tell us anything about that.
Agree. To truly compare whether HW2.5 and HW3 perform differently it would almost be necessary to run them at the same time in parallel in the same physical car (or in shadow mode remotely, presumably after the fact), since every situation, traffic conditions, lighting, etc., would be at least slightly different, even for two different cars physically near each other in the same traffic flow.

Probably only Tesla knows what, if any, differences HW2.5 and HW3 have in how the driving code is working.

In principle HW3 ought to perform better since it has much higher frame processing rates, etc. But HW2.5 is probably more than adequate for things like highway lane keeping, etc. It was originally intended to be powerful enough to do FSD.
 
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Bigriver

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I don't think we have a lot of anecdotal evidence as to whether HW 3.0 behaves differently than HW 2.5 on current firmware. A lot of people upgraded more than a year ago, and didn't notice a change then.
I agree that I heard no reports of a difference. I didn’t notice anything different on my model 3 when HW3 was installed. But I did notice a difference on my model X. There is one specific exit ramp we take often that it just did poorly on HW2.5; the turn was jerky and I usually took control. Coming home with HW3, it suddenly did it superbly. And it has ever since. Other than that specific item, I can’t tie any other autopilot improvement (which have been many) to the hardware. But I do think the day is coming when HW2.5 will be left behind in the software updates, so I totally agree with you that HW3 future proofs the car.
 
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JeffC

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I agree that I heard no reports of a difference. I didn’t notice anything different on my model 3 when HW3 was installed. But I did notice a difference on my model X. There is one specific exit ramp we take often that it just did poorly on HW2.5; the turn was jerky and I usually took control. Coming home with HW3, it suddenly did it superbly. And it has ever since. Other than that specific item, I can’t tie any other autopilot improvement (which have been many) to the hardware. But I do think the day is coming when HW2.5 will be left behind in the software updates, so I totally agree with you that HW3 future proofs the car.
But this begs the question of whether HW2.5 was running exactly the same code as HW3 in Model X. When you got HW3 installed, new (or at least different branch) code could have been running on it, compared to what was running on HW2.5.

So again, it may be apples and oranges.
 
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TesFanMitch

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Looks like you can easily subscribe one month, cancel the next, and subscribe again on the 3rd month if you want. No refunds. When you cancel it will be active till the end of your billing period.



From the Tesla site.

Subscription Pricing​

Your vehicle’s current Autopilot package of Basic Autopilot or Enhanced Autopilot will determine the FSD capability subscription price.


Basic Autopilot to FSD capability$199.00 per month
Enhanced Autopilot to FSD capability$99.00 per month
* Enhanced Autopilot (EAP) is only available in select markets.

To subscribe, open the ‘Upgrades’ menu in your Tesla app or sign in to your Tesla Account. If you have multiple vehicles associated with your account, please be sure to select and subscribe to the correct vehicle.

You can cancel your subscription at any time through the Tesla app or your Tesla Account. Monthly subscription payments will not be prorated. After your cancellation is processed, you will continue to have FSD capability features for the remainder of the current billing period.
I have EAP now, if I upgrade my computer to hardware 3 for $1,000 will I get improved visualization and software updates that I would not get with hardware 2.5?
 

ig0p0g0

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I did just chat with Tesla and they are claiming that the price of the upgrade will be subtracted from the FSD cost if you purchase. I asked the poor lady a few times just to be 110% sure, and she said for me after HW3 is installed my FSD purchase price will be $4,000 (I have EAP).
Please get that in writing.

One example of what we were all told: Buy FSD now or you will pay more later. During the sale I asked for an adjustment and they cut me a check right away (sarcasm)
 
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RoccoX

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Please get that in writing.

One example of what we were all told: Buy FSD now or you will pay more later. During the sale I asked for an adjustment and they cut me a check right away (sarcasm)
I agree, I screen-grabbed the chat, although I do realize that may not even help if they don't adjust the price.

FSD Conversation.jpg
 
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Bigriver

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X. When you got HW3 installed, new (or at least different branch) code could have been running on it, compared to what was running on HW2.5.
So HW3 could provide a different response just because it is faster, but I see it more likely to be this very thing…. Does HW3 cause different branches of the same code to be executed? My brother with an 8 year old Tesla sometimes has the same software version number as I do, but there is much difference in what it does for his car vs mine.

BTW I don’t put any significance to my single observation of an improvement. Although it was independently noticed by my spouse, there are definitely other explanations. Perhaps the cameras were recalibrated while at the SC, for example.
I have EAP now, if I upgrade my computer to hardware 3 for $1,000 will I get improved visualization and software updates that I would not get with hardware 2.5?
Welcome to the forum. No, at this time you should not expect to see any changes or improvements with HW3 compared to HW2.5 with EAP. It is a point of discussion whether it will make a difference in the future outside of FSD.
 
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