FSD Beta

EVmatch: the Airbnb of EV charging.

Have you been selected to participate in the new FSD SW release?


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shareef777

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If you've already paid for FSD, then your vehicle will be grandfathered. :)
I’m guessing he means grandfather into a subscription. So that you can move that subscription to another vehicle.
 
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ig0p0g0

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I’m guessing he means grandfather into a subscription. So that you can move that subscription to another vehicle.
From the original post, I think he meant that if Tesla moves to a subscription-only model, those who bought in with a one-time payment would still receive the same benefits without paying monthly. This has to be true for anything that was promised with our purchase...there may be other add-ons that are subscription only.

Basically what happened with internet.
 

lance.bailey

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the model was used of software companies shifting to a subscription/licencing model. This can be done with or without grandfathering of existing users without a license. All software eventually ages out - either data formats change so that the old versions do not work with new documents/data or hardware grows so that the software no longer works on it. ever try running a 10 year old OS on current generation hardware? of course it won't work, and word proccessing software from 10 years back will not read current format rich text files.

But I bought that OS! I bought word processing software! Yes you did, and while some upgrades were available for it, when the company stopped supporting growth of the product to match new functionalities/hardware/standards the products you bought became less and less relevant.

my thinly veiled examples are true to life, there are many examples of software which was supposed to be free, or with perpetual licenses which have been aged out by lack of support for the older versions until bit rot gets so bad that you have to cut over to the a new version with the new licencing models.

"FSD" is loosely defined at best. This allows new unimagined features to be added, but potentially only added to the newer licence model versions with the perpetual licence versions left behind.

I don't want that to happen, but it could.
 

shareef777

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the model was used of software companies shifting to a subscription/licencing model. This can be done with or without grandfathering of existing users without a license. All software eventually ages out - either data formats change so that the old versions do not work with new documents/data or hardware grows so that the software no longer works on it. ever try running a 10 year old OS on current generation hardware? of course it won't work, and word proccessing software from 10 years back will not read current format rich text files.

But I bought that OS! I bought word processing software! Yes you did, and while some upgrades were available for it, when the company stopped supporting growth of the product to match new functionalities/hardware/standards the products you bought became less and less relevant.

my thinly veiled examples are true to life, there are many examples of software which was supposed to be free, or with perpetual licenses which have been aged out by lack of support for the older versions until bit rot gets so bad that you have to cut over to the a new version with the new licencing models.

"FSD" is loosely defined at best. This allows new unimagined features to be added, but potentially only added to the newer licence model versions with the perpetual licence versions left behind.

I don't want that to happen, but it could.

I really can't imagine what could be added outside of FULL....SELF....DRIVE. I mean the name itself pretty much encompasses everything we'd want the vehicle to do for the money we paid. Can they add AndroidAuto/CarPlay as part of the subscription only suite, sure. But as long as our cars can FSD, who cares!
 

lance.bailey

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I really can't imagine what could be added outside of FULL....SELF....DRIVE. I mean the name itself pretty much encompasses everything we'd want the vehicle to do for the money we paid. Can they add AndroidAuto/CarPlay as part of the subscription only suite, sure. But as long as our cars can FSD, who cares!
and that is the crux of it.

what does FSD mean? the definition has changed over the years from Tesla to between customers to law makers. does it mean sleeping in the drivers seat? the back seat? does it mean robotaxi service? does it mean your car coming to you in a parking lot? circling the block endlessly while you are inside shopping? I have heard all of these bandied about at one point or another.

Some people (like you :) ) take it to mean FULL .... SELF ... DRIVE - the whole ball of wax. but I am not sure that everyone (Tesla included) mean that today, yesterday or tomorrow.

40 years ago I could not imagine doors sliding open sideways on my approach, video calls at my desk or streaming music at the command of my voice. yet here we are now, living in Star Trek land. Who knows what features FSD will have in 20 years.
 

FRC

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and that is the crux of it.

what does FSD mean? the definition has changed over the years from Tesla to between customers to law makers. does it mean sleeping in the drivers seat? the back seat? does it mean robotaxi service? does it mean your car coming to you in a parking lot? circling the block endlessly while you are inside shopping? I have heard all of these bandied about at one point or another.

Some people (like you :) ) take it to mean FULL .... SELF ... DRIVE - the whole ball of wax. but I am not sure that everyone (Tesla included) mean that today, yesterday or tomorrow.

40 years ago I could not imagine doors sliding open sideways on my approach, video calls at my desk or streaming music at the command of my voice. yet here we are now, living in Star Trek land. Who knows what features FSD will have in 20 years.
At a minimum, it means the ability to drive from LA to NY in a Tesla without human input. This is the level of FSD that was promised to us many years ago, and the level of FSD that prompted at least one purchase of Tesla FSD(I don't think I'm alone).
 

M3OC Rules

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I really can't imagine what could be added outside of FULL....SELF....DRIVE. I mean the name itself pretty much encompasses everything we'd want the vehicle to do for the money we paid. Can they add AndroidAuto/CarPlay as part of the subscription only suite, sure. But as long as our cars can FSD, who cares!
I agree with Lance, it's not binary. There is a minimum safety threshold to achieve regulator approval that is unknown at this point. Assuming they achieve that development will continue and it presumably will get better and add features over time. That means safety, speed, convenience, comfort, etc. Imagine things like being able to charge itself or park in a garage or find and park at a meter, etc etc. Infotainment is another big one.

Assuming they get to robotaxis the pricing will get weird. I don't think many people really have a value that they would pay for level 5 on their personal vehicle. Its very abstract at this point and hard to imagine how it will impact your life. I've heard people say "I like driving so I wouldn't pay anything." Others will say it will let me drop a car worth a thousand dollars a month. It could let people get more work done. But how well it works matters. Some may not feel safe even if the numbers say its safer than a human. Or maybe its slower or has a chance of getting stuck. But if it much safer than a human and drives like a human, the value would likely go to an amount based on how much you can earn as a robotaxi which could be a lot more than $10k. And then it starts to be a big penalty for owning versus using a robotaxi.
 

JasonF

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Assuming they get to robotaxis the pricing will get weird. I don't think many people really have a value that they would pay for level 5 on their personal vehicle.

I think that's true as well. If FSD subscriptions keep going up, they're only going to be attractive to people who plan on buying Teslas to use as a self-driving taxi fleet. Not their own personal vehicles, ones purchased just for a Waymo-like service. I believe so because in order to make up the money put into the cars and FSD subs, they have to keep that taxi fleet working 24/7. An individual owner wouldn't want to do that.

So basically the individual buyers who can afford to have FSD on their personal vehicles aren't going to have them perform taxi service, it will just be people who have the money to play with it as a toy.

What I'm hoping though is some of the features trickle down to Autopilot once FSD becomes a reality. Like maybe just basic Summon, and obeying traffic lights/stop signs (that's more for safety than a feature) and maybe NoA as an add-on.
 

shareef777

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At a minimum, it means the ability to drive from LA to NY in a Tesla without human input. This is the level of FSD that was promised to us many years ago, and the level of FSD that prompted at least one purchase of Tesla FSD(I don't think I'm alone).

Right!

I mean, this isn't rocket science here. There's no grey area to be had. FULL...SELF...DRIVE. The car needs to drive itself... FULLY 🤣
 
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shareef777

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I agree with Lance, it's not binary. There is a minimum safety threshold to achieve regulator approval that is unknown at this point. Assuming they achieve that development will continue and it presumably will get better and add features over time. That means safety, speed, convenience, comfort, etc. Imagine things like being able to charge itself or park in a garage or find and park at a meter, etc etc. Infotainment is another big one.

Assuming they get to robotaxis the pricing will get weird. I don't think many people really have a value that they would pay for level 5 on their personal vehicle. Its very abstract at this point and hard to imagine how it will impact your life. I've heard people say "I like driving so I wouldn't pay anything." Others will say it will let me drop a car worth a thousand dollars a month. It could let people get more work done. But how well it works matters. Some may not feel safe even if the numbers say its safer than a human. Or maybe its slower or has a chance of getting stuck. But if it much safer than a human and drives like a human, the value would likely go to an amount based on how much you can earn as a robotaxi which could be a lot more than $10k. And then it starts to be a big penalty for owning versus using a robotaxi.

None of that matters, I (and many others) paid for FSD. It needs to drive itself from point A to point B... FULLY
 

Long Ranger

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I mean, this isn't rocket science here. There's no grey area to be had. FULL...SELF...DRIVE. The car needs to drive itself... FULLY 🤣
I went to the “Full-Serve” island at the gas station the other day. Couldn’t believe it, they only pumped gas and washed my windshield. Didn’t check the oil, check the tires, wash or vacuum the car. When I ordered coffee and donuts they told me to go inside and get them myself! Is that FULL service? ;)
 

shareef777

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I went to the “Full-Serve” island at the gas station the other day. Couldn’t believe it, they only pumped gas and washed my windshield. Didn’t check the oil, check the tires, wash or vacuum the car. When I ordered coffee and donuts they told me to go inside and get them myself! Is that FULL service? ;)

I didn't pay for "Full-Serve", I paid for FULL...SELF...DRIVE. Again, there's only one way you can parse that.
 

Long Ranger

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I didn't pay for "Full-Serve", I paid for FULL...SELF...DRIVE. Again, there's only one way you can parse that.
Honestly, I only see gray when I read that phrase. If the car can fully drive from A to B with no driver intervention but with driver supervision, is that FSD? What if it can fully do it 99.99999% of the time? 99%? 90%? 10%? In what weather conditions? On what roads? What if it frequently gives up and pulls over? Does it need to be able to charge itself? I think you see it as full level 5 automation in all conditions, but I don’t think Tesla has promised that just by using the phrase Full Self Driving.
 
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garsh

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Honestly, I only see gray when I read that phrase.
Regardless of the concise and imprecise nature of the Full-Self-Driving phrase, we can go back and watch the Tesla Autonomy Day video where this feature was introduced, and we can review what was actually promised by Elon and Tesla.

 

FRC

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I believe that Autonomy day was in 2019, when Elon was asked what he meant by feature complete FSD. He responded feature complete, full Autonomy in the streets of San Francisco and Manhattan, by the end of 2019. In July of 2021, my FSD is not feature complete, it is not fully autonomous, and it will not drive itself in San Francisco or Manhattan(I'm assuming this last bit, I haven't actually tried).

So, Elon is pretty specific about what FSD means to him. And it aligns pretty well with what most of us purchasers believed it meant when we purchased. The product that is expected by Elon and buyers does not seem to be a point of contention. The delivery date of the product is the point of contention, and I've got to assume that Elon is more pissed about the delays and broken promises than we are.

At some point, the issue will become whether or not Tesla failed to deliver what was promised. Thus far, I think they have. That could change tomorrow. But I was led to believe that I would have feature complete FSD by the end of 2018 originally, and by the end of 2019 in this Autonomy Day presentation. With 3.5 years of the useful life of my car now gone; at what point has Tesla failed to produce the product as promised? And at what point do they owe buyers partial or full refunds of their purchase?

I don't know the answers to my questions. But I bet some court, someday, will provide the answer to them.
 

PalmtreesCalling

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... I think you see it as full level 5 automation in all conditions, but I don’t think Tesla has promised that just by using the phrase Full Self Driving.
I disagree. This is EXACTLY what I thought I was buying. I'll allow them some extreme condition caveats, when the only safe thing to do is pull over and wait out the weather, a fire, o earthquake, etc. But outside of that. The car needs to drive itself, drop me off, park, and be able to pick me up when I signal I"m ready.
In order of prioirity I want:
The car to do all the work driving from point A to B in normal weather (which includes rain and snow, but not blizzard or downpour conditions)
Drop me Off, and park.
Pick me up.
Handle the aforementioned extreme conditions gracefully.
Have better route planning.
 

Long Ranger

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I disagree. This is EXACTLY what I thought I was buying.
Sure, it’s what most of us thought we were buying, myself included. I’m just saying that Tesla provides almost no specification of what you’re actually buying on the website and order page. All you have is the FSD name itself and what they’ve said in other public statements. It’s something, but I feel like there’s still a lot of wiggle room. With the current website description, they could possibly just add level 2 Autosteer on City Streets and call it feature complete. I do believe they intend level 4/5 autonomy, but I’m skeptical that they’ll get there anytime soon and I won’t be surprised if they declare it feature complete when it’s still short of many expectations.
 

lance.bailey

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butterball turkeys do not contain butter. butterball farms is a butter manufacturer who sometimes produces butter balls. but butterball turkeys contain no butter in there injected basting secret sauce.

I remember as a kid some uproar about this - but butterball turkeys live on. I suspect that some lawyer somewhere defined butterball correctly enough that the company can contune selling butter named turkeys which contain no butter.

in the same way, FSD - Full Self Driving - will be defined by the lawyers, not us.
 
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