Enhanced Summon / FSD more camera's needed?

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adam m

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#1
I was just thinking, how can Enhanced summon / FSD ever work if the car can't see to the left and right of it. As a child, and then learning to drive your always taught to look both ways but the cars currently don't have a forward left and right facing camera. How will the car navigate 'T's or intersections?
 

iChris93

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#3
A couple things to keep in mind.
1) There are wider front facing cameras than we can see with dash cam.
2) Tesla can have the car turn slightly to use one of the side cameras to see perpendicularly too.
 
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DocScott

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#4
It would be really interesting to do the following experiment (this would either require Tesla to do it or some mighty hacking skills):

1. Choose a test car with HW 2.5 or 3 (doesn't matter which for this purpose).

2. Modify that car so that it can beam video from all camera views, along with radar data, ultrasonic data, and the usual displays (e.g. speed) to a nearby user not in the car. (Alternatively, the user could be in the car, but wearing a VR rig, if transmission lag is a problem. For the rest of this post, I'll still refer to them as the "remote user," although they might be physically in the car.)

3. Give the remote user a set-up where they can monitor all of the data streams at once (e.g. multiple monitors, one for each camera, plus one for radar and the usual display for ultrasonics).

4. Put a safety driver in to the car.

5. Set it up so that the remote user can drive the car (steering, accelerator, brake, signals, horn).

6. See how well the remote driver can drive the car using just what the car itself sees.

There would presumably be a bit of a learning curve for the remote driver getting used to looking at the interface. But once that was done, can the person drive as well as they could if they were sitting in the car? Maybe better, because it's easier to look in multiple directions at once? Or would it be worse, because there were some kind of blind spots, or because the camera quality isn't high enough, or because there's a penalty for not being able to move your head around to see things from slightly different angles?

If the remote driver in that situation can't drive the car effectively, then no amount of software and fancy chips will ever allows the Teslas to achieve FSD. If the remote driver can drive effectively, though, then we know the hardware's good enough.

I hope Tesla tried experiments like that. It seems like an obvious test, but I haven't heard any reports of remote controlled Tesla test vehicles (with safety drivers) out on the street.
 

NOGA$4ME

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#5
While I can see a wide-angle front-facing camera being able to conceivably navigate a regular T, but how about a slant T with a fairly acute slant to the left or the right?
 

SkipperOFMO

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#7
While I can see a wide-angle front-facing camera being able to conceivably navigate a regular T, but how about a slant T with a fairly acute slant to the left or the right?
How do you do it with just two eyes sitting in a seat looking through a windshield? This car has far better visibility ALL the time in all situations.
 

garsh

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#8
but the cars currently don't have a forward left and right facing camera.
The B-pillar cameras cover left and right. You can see the view in the upper left and right portions of this video.



When all the cameras are combined, the car has a full 360 degree view.

 

NOGA$4ME

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#9
How do you do it with just two eyes sitting in a seat looking through a windshield? This car has far better visibility ALL the time in all situations.
Umm...I turn my head (and at this one particular intersection I am thinking of, I have to partially turn my torso as well to look "back").

Another situation that I am concerned about are regular T's where you have to lean forward to see past an obstacle. In some cases these are signs that builders helpfully put up on corners to advertise housing developments, and sometimes they are plants that are either intentionally put on corners, or in some cases not properly maintained. And then there is the case of pulling out of a perpendicular parking spot with SUVs on both sides Not only do I have to lean forward, but I actually have to slowly pull my nose out slightly into traffic before I can get a good view of the travel lane. A sufficiently wide-angle front facing camera might be able to get a good view in this scenario, but I really have my doubts about the B pillar cameras given that they are WAY behind my head when I am leaning forward.
 

garsh

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#10
Another situation that I am concerned about are regular T's where you have to lean forward to see past an obstacle.
No doubt, those situations are difficult. But the combination of the wide-angle front camera (there are 3 front cameras below the rear-view mirror) and the b-pillar cameras should have it covered. The fish-eye wide-angle front camera is still further forward than you leaning forward behind the windshield.
 

NOGA$4ME

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#12
No doubt, those situations are difficult. But the combination of the wide-angle front camera (there are 3 front cameras below the rear-view mirror) and the b-pillar cameras should have it covered. The fish-eye wide-angle front camera is still further forward than you leaning forward behind the windshield.
What is the field of view of the wide-angle front camera? Is it a full 180 degrees?
 

garsh

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#14
What is the field of view of the wide-angle front camera? Is it a full 180 degrees?
No, it doesn't appear to be quite that far from the example videos I've seen. Probably more like 160.
But the B-pillar cameras capture everything from almost completely forward to slightly behind.
 

airbusav8r

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#16
The car can see close to 360, the lines are filled in much like google maps (complex lambda calculus + vectoring). The cameras do not mean much, the primary go/no-go system is radar which can determine object, speed, direction, etc... and is exponentially more reliable than Tesla cams and... 1000x faster than you turning your head left and right using judgment to base a car accelerating towards you. You are using system 1 (approximations). In the end, it probably is a wash and is about as safe as someone with 20/30+ years of driving, but the computer will not build bad habits.
 

airbusav8r

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#17
What Tesla has not enabled yet (HW3) is echo relay (time to bounce off everything) essentially mapping an entire area with Sonar (not radar, this is important to note). Lidar will also be introduced, I’m assuming it will be Omni-directional and most likely will work much like adaptive headlights moving towards the direction you want to turn. I suspect that is a hard requirement for full FSD and legal, the car will need at a minimum 3 systems. Primary, secondary (redundant), manual intervention. The individuals designing much of this are from Boeing/Airbus/NG/Honeywell, individuals that worked on the 3-rule FMC (flight management computer). It’s quite interesting to see how much they are leveraging from aviation now, the car even has an internal inertia computer as of v10 to make turns more acceptable regarding G-Force on the APEX of a turn, cool stuff!
 

FF35

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#18
What Tesla has not enabled yet (HW3) is echo relay (time to bounce off everything) essentially mapping an entire area with Sonar (not radar, this is important to note). Lidar will also be introduced, I’m assuming it will be Omni-directional and most likely will work much like adaptive headlights moving towards the direction you want to turn. I suspect that is a hard requirement for full FSD and legal, the car will need at a minimum 3 systems. Primary, secondary (redundant), manual intervention. The individuals designing much of this are from Boeing/Airbus/NG/Honeywell, individuals that worked on the 3-rule FMC (flight management computer). It’s quite interesting to see how much they are leveraging from aviation now, the car even has an internal inertia computer as of v10 to make turns more acceptable regarding G-Force on the APEX of a turn, cool stuff!
Lidar? Do you have a source for that information?
 

Mr. Spacely

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#20
What Tesla has not enabled yet (HW3) is echo relay (time to bounce off everything) essentially mapping an entire area with Sonar (not radar, this is important to note). Lidar will also be introduced, I’m assuming it will be Omni-directional and most likely will work much like adaptive headlights moving towards the direction you want to turn.
Tesla will never use Lidar. Musk used Lidar on SpaceX and said: "Other car companies are all going to dump lidar. Anyone relying on lidar is doomed. Lidar is really a shortcut."