Efficiency

babula

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#1
Question for people getting under 300 Wh/Mile. I've been tracking all of my trips and even if I drive extremely slow I'm always above 300 Wh/Mile, usually between 306 and 320. After signing up for Teslifi I noticed some discrepancies, for example, I took a 3 mile trip this morning (average speed 11MPH, max 42MPH) and Teslifi is reporting it at 271 Wh/Mile while my car is reporting 321 Wh/Mile.

Is there anything I'm forgetting? Is it best to track this sort of thing mainly on long trips instead of short city trips?

---

EDIT: Just realized that this probably belongs in "Charging, Infrastructure & Efficiency" (apologies).
 
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jsmay311

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Is this the battery-to-wheels efficiency displayed on the screen or a wall-to-wheels efficiency (including all vampire losses, battery conditioning, energy used while in Park, and charging losses)?

I'm tracking both, and the wall-to-wheels Wh/mile is MUCH higher than the battery-to-wheels -- especially so when I don't drive many miles between charges, likely due mostly to the vampire drain (which Teslafi will exacerbate) not being spread over as many miles. For daily trips under 20 miles, it averages over 100 Wh/mile higher than the screen number.

But I have no problems at all keeping the screen number under 200 Wh/mi unless I'm driving on the highway. (RWD, aero wheels, tires at 45psi)
 
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kort677

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#3
the first few miles of any trip will show very high w/miles. after awhile it gets balanced, I think those short trips that you take are skewing the results you see.
FWIW: I just returned from a 320+ mile round trip and I am amazed at how low my w/miles were, which was in the 260s I was mostly on AP at 74 MPH for 95% of the trip. MY S would have been north of 330 w/miles for a similar trip
 

ateslik

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#4
I feel like there is a mental tax to owning this vehicle. Between the upgrades, quirks, and constantly minding battery and efficiency it takes more thought to own this vehicle, which is something I don't think I expected so much.
 

KarenRei

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#5
Question for people getting under 300 Wh/Mile. I've been tracking all of my trips and even it I drive extremely slow I'm always above 300 Wh/Mile, usually between 306 and 320. After signing up for Teslifi I noticed some discrepancies, for example, I took a 3 mile trip this morning (average speed 11MPH, max 42MPH) and Teslifi is reporting it at 271 Wh/Mile while my car is reporting 321 Wh/Mile.

Is there anything I'm forgetting? Is it best to track this sort of thing mainly on long trips instead of short city trips?
There needs to be a forum rule that you cannot ask a question or make a statement about your range without listing what wheels and tires you're on and how new they are. At least we know your config is AWD, so that's one source of added losses.

From your energy consumption vs. your driving description, I'd bet on pretty high odds that you're not on aeros with the caps, and wouldn't be surprised in the least if you're on 20s.
 

Ed Woodrick

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#6
I feel like there is a mental tax to owning this vehicle. Between the upgrades, quirks, and constantly minding battery and efficiency it takes more thought to own this vehicle, which is something I don't think I expected so much.
It doesn't take all of the constantly minding to own the vehicle. You probably didn't do it for your ICE, why should you do it for this.

It's different, and especially for cars with lower capacities, a concept called "Range Anxiety" kicks in, and to some newbies, it will exist for the LR Model 3 as well. For many people, taking a long distance trip, just to understand how far you can go, helps get rid of the range anxiety. We did that in my 88 mile 2015 Leaf, but soon you start to understand where your limits are on how you get around them. There was one trip that I would do monthly, that was generally at the extreme range of 88 miles, I could do it with slow Interstate traffic in the summer, but in the winter, or fast traffic, I couldn't. There was a DC fast charger about 15 miles from the house which provided my option. I didn't have to worry about it, I knew it was there.

If you plug in every evening, you should start to not think about the car pretty quickly. I actually don't plug in every evening (yes, I know what the manual says) and only plug in every few days, not a big deal.

Unless your daily drive stretches the limits, you really shouldn't have to worry about too much, plug in, drive, and repeat.
 

babula

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#7
There needs to be a forum rule that you cannot ask a question or make a statement about your range without listing what wheels and tires you're on and how new they are. At least we know your config is AWD, so that's one source of added losses.

From your energy consumption vs. your driving description, I'd bet on pretty high odds that you're not on aeros with the caps, and wouldn't be surprised in the least if you're on 20s.
So I've actually been on standard Aero 18s until yesterday when I took them off. Funny enough, that lower number I listed was my first trip without the Aero caps on.
 

babula

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#8
I feel like there is a mental tax to owning this vehicle. Between the upgrades, quirks, and constantly minding battery and efficiency it takes more thought to own this vehicle, which is something I don't think I expected so much.
I agree 100%, I would have never guessed that I would be scanning data about my vehicle and constantly trying to improve my range by adjusting driving habits.
 

Ed Woodrick

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#9
Question for people getting under 300 Wh/Mile. I've been tracking all of my trips and even it I drive extremely slow I'm always above 300 Wh/Mile, usually between 306 and 320. After signing up for Teslifi I noticed some discrepancies, for example, I took a 3 mile trip this morning (average speed 11MPH, max 42MPH) and Teslifi is reporting it at 271 Wh/Mile while my car is reporting 321 Wh/Mile.

Is there anything I'm forgetting? Is it best to track this sort of thing mainly on long trips instead of short city trips?
If the Current Trip odometer (as well as the others) are showing 300+Wh/mi, then there is something wrong. First, things to look at, is regen set at normal? (factory default) Are you only using the brakes for the last 20 feet when stopping? Does the power used (under the speed) for to both the right when accelerating and left when decelerating?

FYI, regen can account for 30% of your power, no regen, 30% less mileage.

If you've got a piece of road that you can do around 45-55 mph for 30 minutes, with minimal stops, you should be seeing below 250.

If not, time to call service.
 

babula

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#10
It doesn't take all of the constantly minding to own the vehicle. You probably didn't do it for your ICE, why should you do it for this.

It's different, and especially for cars with lower capacities, a concept called "Range Anxiety" kicks in, and to some newbies, it will exist for the LR Model 3 as well. For many people, taking a long distance trip, just to understand how far you can go, helps get rid of the range anxiety. We did that in my 88 mile 2015 Leaf, but soon you start to understand where your limits are on how you get around them. There was one trip that I would do monthly, that was generally at the extreme range of 88 miles, I could do it with slow Interstate traffic in the summer, but in the winter, or fast traffic, I couldn't. There was a DC fast charger about 15 miles from the house which provided my option. I didn't have to worry about it, I knew it was there.

If you plug in every evening, you should start to not think about the car pretty quickly. I actually don't plug in every evening (yes, I know what the manual says) and only plug in every few days, not a big deal.

Unless your daily drive stretches the limits, you really shouldn't have to worry about too much, plug in, drive, and repeat.
I never did it with my ICE but I do it with this car because it fascinates me.
 

kort677

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#11
I feel like there is a mental tax to owning this vehicle. Between the upgrades, quirks, and constantly minding battery and efficiency it takes more thought to own this vehicle, which is something I don't think I expected so much.
owning a tesla is unlike owning an ICE, it is more like being the pilot of a small plane where planning every aspect of your trip is crucial to reach your destination.

while a lot of planning is not required for the day to day driving anytime you hit the road for an extended trip such as one that would be 200+miles or so you need to start thinking about associated nuances to the trip like what is the weather going to be? winds rain and cold will affect range, what is the terrain that you'll need to drive through? long upgrades will zap your range up to 20% without you realizing it. where will you charge, are there backups in case your planned charger is not functioning? this is the "fun" of owning a tesla
 

babula

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#12
If the Current Trip odometer (as well as the others) are showing 300+Wh/mi, then there is something wrong. First, things to look at, is regen set at normal? (factory default) Are you only using the brakes for the last 20 feet when stopping? Does the power used (under the speed) for to both the right when accelerating and left when decelerating?

FYI, regen can account for 30% of your power, no regen, 30% less mileage.

If you've got a piece of road that you can do around 45-55 mph for 30 minutes, with minimal stops, you should be seeing below 250.

If not, time to call service.
Regen is at factory default, I would personally make this more aggressive if I could. In general I'm not using breaks at all, I try to drive with the accelerator pedal only. I'm starting to get the feeling that my short trips might be the issue here, not sure what to do about that as I live in the city and everything is fairly close by.
 

kort677

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#13
If the Current Trip odometer (as well as the others) are showing 300+Wh/mi, then there is something wrong. First, things to look at, is regen set at normal? (factory default) Are you only using the brakes for the last 20 feet when stopping? Does the power used (under the speed) for to both the right when accelerating and left when decelerating?

FYI, regen can account for 30% of your power, no regen, 30% less mileage.

If you've got a piece of road that you can do around 45-55 mph for 30 minutes, with minimal stops, you should be seeing below 250.

If not, time to call service.
I could be wrong but in my years of owning an S the regen aspects not as great as you imply
 

babula

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#14
Is this the battery-to-wheels efficiency displayed on the screen or a wall-to-wheels efficiency (including all vampire losses, battery conditioning, energy used while in Park, and charging losses)?

I'm tracking both, and the wall-to-wheels Wh/mile is MUCH higher than the battery-to-wheels -- especially so when I don't drive many miles between charges, likely due mostly to the vampire drain (which Teslafi will exacerbate) not being spread over as many miles. For daily trips under 20 miles, it averages over 100 Wh/mile higher than the screen number.

But I have no problems at all keeping the screen number under 200 Wh/mi unless I'm driving on the highway. (RWD, aero wheels, tires at 45psi)
I'm strictly referring to the efficiency displayed on screen. Honestly, I didn't even know about wall-to-wheels efficiency.
 

NOGA$4ME

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#15
Driving locally is generally going to be less efficient than longer distances. The reason is not the speed. It's all about how many times you have to accelerate from 0. It doesn't necessarily matter what speed you end up at (to a point), or even how fast you accelerate (mostly). For local travel (below 50 mph let's say), the majority of your efficiency losses are going to simply come from the fact that you are having to accelerate the car from 0 to whatever over and over, and this is the least efficient part of your trip. Maintaining speed, no problem (and drag isn't going to hit you hard until you're at highway speeds). And even jackrabbit starts aren't as detrimental to efficiency in an EV as they are in a gas car where you have to climb the torque ladder. Although I will point out if you are quickly accelerating only to have to come to a stop at the next light (and thus have to accelerate again)--this is how you lose efficiency. Better to just coast as much as possible. And oh, excessive regen is not good either (this is why I consider the "standard" Tesla regen a great tool for one pedal driving and reducing brake wear, but not so great for efficiency).

So having said all that, yes, very short drives are likely to have a much higher Wh/mile because you are not getting the benefit of cruising at your cruise speed, which is going to be the sweet spot for efficiency.

I've taken 3 long trips in my Model 3 and have been able to easily hit 220-230 Wh/mile without even trying. Now okay, I don't usually drive above 73mph. I have my aero covers on my 18" wheels that I have inflated to the Tesla recommended 45psi. I have had a long leg of one trip below 200 Wh/mile, although admittedly this leg had a fairly lengthy downhill section.

As for the discrepancy between TesalFi and the car, I would trust the car. TeslaFi probably missed the beginning of your trip (where you likely accelerated to your cruise speed) because it only checks the car every minute to see if it's driving. It could have missed the first 50 seconds of your trip.

Having said that, 300+ Wh/mile does sound pretty high. Even around town I get between 250-275 Wh/mile, again, without trying...and this is with aero covers off, jackrabbit starts whenever I can (because!) and even using the standard regen. I decided minimizing brake wear took priority over efficiency. Hopefully some day they give me a scroll wheel control to switch back and forth between standard and low regen (or maybe even let me dial it in).
 

babula

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#16
There needs to be a forum rule that you cannot ask a question or make a statement about your range without listing what wheels and tires you're on and how new they are. At least we know your config is AWD, so that's one source of added losses.

From your energy consumption vs. your driving description, I'd bet on pretty high odds that you're not on aeros with the caps, and wouldn't be surprised in the least if you're on 20s.
Since you asked for more details hopefully this helps (everything else is listed in my signature)

  • 696 total miles
  • 302 Wh/Mile Total
  • 18" Aero with caps (had them on for 693 miles, did 3 miles after taking them off so far)
 

babula

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#17
Driving locally is generally going to be less efficient than longer distances. The reason is not the speed. It's all about how many times you have to accelerate from 0. It doesn't necessarily matter what speed you end up at (to a point), or even how fast you accelerate (mostly). For local travel (below 50 mph let's say), the majority of your efficiency losses are going to simply come from the fact that you are having to accelerate the car from 0 to whatever over and over, and this is the least efficient part of your trip. Maintaining speed, no problem (and drag isn't going to hit you hard until you're at highway speeds). And even jackrabbit starts aren't as detrimental to efficiency in an EV as they are in a gas car where you have to climb the torque ladder. Although I will point out if you are quickly accelerating only to have to come to a stop at the next light (and thus have to accelerate again)--this is how you lose efficiency. Better to just coast as much as possible. And oh, excessive regen is not good either (this is why I consider the "standard" Tesla regen a great tool for one pedal driving and reducing brake wear, but not so great for efficiency).

So having said all that, yes, very short drives are likely to have a much higher Wh/mile because you are not getting the benefit of cruising at your cruise speed, which is going to be the sweet spot for efficiency.

I've taken 3 long trips in my Model 3 and have been able to easily hit 220-230 Wh/mile without even trying. Now okay, I don't usually drive above 73mph. I have my aero covers on my 18" wheels that I have inflated to the Tesla recommended 45psi. I have had a long leg of one trip below 200 Wh/mile, although admittedly this leg had a fairly lengthy downhill section.

As for the discrepancy between TesalFi and the car, I would trust the car. TeslaFi probably missed the beginning of your trip (where you likely accelerated to your cruise speed) because it only checks the car every minute to see if it's driving. It could have missed the first 50 seconds of your trip.

Having said that, 300+ Wh/mile does sound pretty high. Even around town I get between 250-275 Wh/mile, again, without trying...and this is with aero covers off, jackrabbit starts whenever I can (because!) and even using the standard regen. I decided minimizing brake wear took priority over efficiency. Hopefully some day they give me a scroll wheel control to switch back and forth between standard and low regen (or maybe even let me dial it in).
Very informative, thank you.

My daily drives are generally short and I live in Queens where there is either a stop sign or red light every couple of blocks... I think thats pretty much it like you said. When I've went on longer trips (50+ miles) my efficiency is always below 300, so I'm going to assume that these numbers wont get much better for my daily trips.

Just surprised in general because I've been driving extremely efficiently in my opinion and I was expecting the numbers to be lower.
 

kort677

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#18
Very informative, thank you.

My daily drives are generally short and I live in Queens where there is either a stop sign or red light every couple of blocks... I think thats pretty much it like you said. When I've went on longer trips (50+ miles) my efficiency is always below 300, so I'm going to assume that these numbers wont get much better for my daily trips.

Just surprised in general because I've been driving extremely efficiently in my opinion and I was expecting the numbers to be lower.
city like stop and go traffic will no be efficient because of the aforementioned stop and go nature of it, longer trips where you can maintain a steady speed for a long time is where you'll see the w/miles come down
 

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#19
Just like an ICE you'll get better efficiency on the highway over city driving as others have noted. For highway driving the rules are similar to ICE as well. There is a sweet spot, I'm guessing it's in the 45 to 50 MPH range, isn't that where the EPA does their testing? Anything over that and the faster you go your efficiency will drop, just like gas mileage in an ICE.
 

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#20
To the OP: There are a couple online efficiency polls that you can reference. These polls don't differentiate between RWD and AWD owners (they were created back when there were only RWD). But only 1.5% of respondents report lifetime "screen" efficiency averages over 300 Wh/mile.

https://teslaownersonline.com/threads/poll-model-3-efficiency-battery-to-wheels.6899/
https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/poll-model-3-efficiency-battery-to-wheels.115353/

upload_2018-9-28_16-11-51-png.15225


Driving locally is generally going to be less efficient than longer distances.
Just like an ICE you'll get better efficiency on the highway over city driving as others have noted.
Careful with the generalizations. I get significantly better efficiency driving around town than when cruising on the highway at 60-65mph and MUCH better than 70-80mph. I'm surprised that's not the norm for most people.
 

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