Comparing Model 3 to several other cars in the same segment

ReD eXiLe

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#3
Interesting charts. I'll have to study them a bit. Thus far though, I find it curious how some vehicles are omitted from the listings, along with the apparent reasons why.
 

ReD eXiLe

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#6
Interesting charts. I'll have to study them a bit. Thus far though, I find it curious how some vehicles are omitted from the listings, along with the apparent reasons why.
because you have to draw a line somewhere. it doesn't have to be compared to every single car out there.
Interesting charts. I'll have to study them a bit. Thus far though, I find it curious how some vehicles are omitted from the listings, along with the apparent reasons why.
Please elaborate.
I would have drawn the line... elsewhere. No SUV/Crossover/Wagon type vehicles at all, for starters. I understand that there are people who absolutely do not care about cars at all, they just get whatever they can find on the lot if they can 'make the payments' -- so they'll end up with pretty much anything on four wheels, from a Sedan to a Minivan, or a Coupe to an SUV. But I'm not one of them, and strongly suspect that those who are shopping for electric vehicles are more specific as to what they investigate and research when looking for a vehicle. Though I could surely be wrong.
 

mt.west.ev

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#7
Interesting and informative thread.

In addition .... I must compare the M3 to the vehicle I already own. Bought and paid for.
In my case, a 2015 Toyota Avalon hybrid. A terrific car.

I really love pictures I have seen of the M3. Hopefully, when I see the "real deal" I will love it even more. The appearance is the strongest, most compelling reason I put $1k down on the M3.
The second reason is because it is an EV. I like that, but there are inconveniences associated with it being an EV.

But I am becoming increasingly concerned about other aspects of the vehicle.
Pictures on "Model 3, TMC" show really sloppy fit & finish. That is one area my Avalon excels.
Range is another; Even 310 miles (for an additional $9k) is disappointing. The Avalon easily goes 500 plus miles.
Exterior color ($1k for anything other than black). Excessive is all I can say.
Interior creature comforts (for an additional $5k). My Avalon includes all that I would want.

Other concerns (that I have not fully explored) are several negative comments about insurance cost;
warranty issues; and repair cost. It appears (not substantiated in my mind) that Tesla deal a little "heavy-handed" with warranty claims and repairs at their shops.

I am in a "holding pattern" right now. Tesla can keep my $1k , but I have no plans to make a purchase for the next 12 months at the least. I want to read a lot more about my concerns and the experience others are having.

As for the other vehicles listed on the chart? I have no interest in any of them.
 
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garsh

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Pictures on "Model 3, TMC" show really sloppy fit & finish.
I haven't been watching this closely. I know the early RCs had pretty bad fit & finish, but that seemed to keep getting better up through the first deliveries. Those first deliveries all seemed to have really tight fit & finish. So I assumed that Tesla had solved that issue, but maybe I need to keep looking closely at the new sightings to make sure.
Range is another; Even 310 miles (for an additional $9k) is disappointing.
This is going to be the main downside to EV ownership for the foreseeable future. EVs still aren't perfect replacements for combustion vehicles in all situations. But at least now there are many situations where they are preferable and work better. But long-distance driving is not one of those situations. But at least with a Tesla, it's *possible* to drive long distances.
 

Topher

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#9
Range is another; Even 310 miles (for an additional $9k) is disappointing. The Avalon easily goes 500 plus miles.
How many days in a year are you driving 500 miles? or even 310? The cars wakes up every morning magically at full range. If you never drive further than 310 miles, you need never visit a filling station. If you occasionally do, you can spend some of the time that you currently spend getting gas, at a charging station (probably still a net time savings) If you frequently do, you might want to look for another transportation option.

Thank you kindly.
 

garsh

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If you occasionally do, you can spend some of the time that you currently spend getting gas, at a charging station (probably still a net time savings)
It *is* a tradeoff, and we should make sure that those who are new to EVs thoroughly understand this tradeoff. Road trips are *possible* in a Tesla, but are going to require more planning. And they are going to take longer because supercharging is not as fast as gassing up.
 

JWardell

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#11
How many days in a year are you driving 500 miles? or even 310? The cars wakes up every morning magically at full range. If you never drive further than 310 miles, you need never visit a filling station. If you occasionally do, you can spend some of the time that you currently spend getting gas, at a charging station (probably still a net time savings) If you frequently do, you might want to look for another transportation option.

Thank you kindly.
While I generally agree with your logic, your car will not typically waking up every day with 310mi of range. On most days you should only charge to 80% so that's just 248mi. That range is then further reduced on cold days, so maybe only 210 mi of range on a normal day in the winter.
The idea is that occasionally, when you know you are going to set off on a long drive, you can tell your car to charge to 100% that particular night, and get the full 310 mi of range.

Before you complain, this is why we are seeing Teslas at 100,000 or 200,000 miles whose batteries still have 95% of their original capacity. The day-to-day control of battery capacity and temperature pays off in the long run.
 

ReD eXiLe

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#12
While I generally agree with your logic, your car will not typically waking up every day with 310mi of range. On most days you should only charge to 80% so that's just 248mi. That range is then further reduced on cold days, so maybe only 210 mi of range on a normal day in the winter.
The idea is that occasionally, when you know you are going to set off on a long drive, you can tell your car to charge to 100% that particular night, and get the full 310 mi of range.

Before you complain, this is why we are seeing Teslas at 100,000 or 200,000 miles whose batteries still have 95% of their original capacity. The day-to-day control of battery capacity and temperature pays off in the long run.
If 80% of the range, whether 139 (Model S 40), 208 (original Model S 60), 220 (Model 3 standard), or 310 miles (Model 3 long range), is more than you typically drive on a daily basis, topher's point is completely valid. 'Full' for an individual is whatever they set the car to replenish to every night when charging.
 

mt.west.ev

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#13
All great replies to my post. Thank you.

Re fit & finish - I think there have been improvements over the RC's. The picture I was referring to is a 4-corner intersection near the taillight. It was pretty bad.

Re milage - the disappointment is in the $9k cost. Actually, in the event I proceed with a purchase, I will take the standard battery, and apply the money to the premium upgrade package.

IMHO, Tesla is gouging buyers on paint and wheels. I have no idea what the motive is, but it's almost like the standard black and aero covers were selected to force the buyer to spend additional money (I know many like black, and some like the aero .... and that is great).

I've driven a hybrid for 7 years now, and I'm ready to make the leap to an EV. My "ticket" will not get "punched" until late 2018 or early 2019. A Tax credit is not anticipated. I just want some of my concerns to be resolved before I make the plunge.
 
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garsh

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#14
IMHO, Tesla is gouging buyers on paint and wheels. I have no idea what the motive is...
The motive is to make money so they don't go out of business. Remember, Tesla is still bleeding money. They have thousands of employees who need to feed kids and pay for braces. They've spent *billions* of dollars on tooling & design to build this car. If they don't start making money on *this* car, then it's all over. They've determined that the market will bear these high prices for options, and I bet they're able to sell every last car they produce.
 
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mt.west.ev

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garsh - What you say may well be true, and I completely understand that business .... every business, their goal is to make money. However, if it is the consumer's responsibility to make whole every business venture, many of us consumers will be unable to "feed our kids and pay for braces."

I well understand market research, and pricing goods and services at a price the public will pay, but it is still gouging, (if you don't like that word, how about taking advantage of the consumer) whether it is a drug company that markets a life saving drug, a Houston market selling bottled water; a lumber yard in south Florida in the face of the hurricane, or Tesla pricing paint in excess of other manufacturers.
 

garsh

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#16
whether it is a drug company that markets a life saving drug,
Something required by some people in order to not die.
a Houston market selling bottled water;
Something required by people in order to not die.
a lumber yard in south Florida in the face of the hurricane,
Required to help protect the second basic need: shelter
or Tesla pricing paint in excess of other manufacturers.
An option on an entry-level luxury car.
 

Kbm3

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#18
I give up. You win.

Golly it would be great to be so smart and correct about everything.
You should give up. Tesla is killing themselves to accelerate the advent of sustainable transportation and energy.

They need the model three to generate cash to build future Gigagactories for energy storage, solar etc. Would you have them increase the waiting list from 18 months to three years by reducing the price and therefore slowdown the transition?

Your comparison was completely invalid.
 

garsh

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#19
I understand that many people are upset that this car is more expensive than what we were originally thinking. I think the consensus at one point was that options would probably be about half the price of equivalent Model S options. It was quite a gut-punch when we found out that options are priced identically to Model S options.

But what Tesla is doing is not "price gouging".
Price gouging is a pejorative term referring to when a seller spikes the prices of goods, services or commodities to a level much higher than is considered reasonable or fair, and is considered exploitative, potentially to an unethical extent. Usually this event occurs after a demand or supply shock: common examples include price increases of basic necessities after hurricanes or other natural disasters. In precise, legal usage, it is the name of a crime that applies in some jurisdictions of the United States during civil emergencies. In less precise usage, it can refer either to prices obtained by practices inconsistent with a competitive free market, or to windfall profits.

A Model 3 is not a commodity.
It is not a basic necessity.
The pricing isn't in response to a natural disaster or civil emergency.
It is not even going to result in "windfall profits" for Tesla.

It is simply what Tesla needs to do to stay alive.