Canadian Federal EV Rebate program announcement

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sandange

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#4
I'm a line waiter and put my reservation deposit down (M3 sight unseen) on March 29, 2016).
This news comes as I have placed my order in on March 1, 2019, for a Standard plus , white interior, with an anticipated delivery of 2 weeks.
Currently awaiting on a vin with no delivery date in sight.

Not only as a consumer, but as well as a stock holder I hope that Tesla works with the Canadian regulators & to get the Model 3 qualified.
 

lance.bailey

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#5
Feh.

45K upper limit. Kills all but maybe the slimmest of model3 configurations (and i doubt that). Is their list (cf driving.ca ) based on what they think various EVs cost and cost today, or is that list explicit? That is, the car needs to be cheap inexpensive and also on the list.
 

sandange

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#6
The standard base model is not listed on the Canadian web site, only available by visiting the store to order & I believe with a base price of more than $47,500 CAD

So not on the list or eligible .

If you are a new EV purchaser in Canada & compare base model to base model, pricing....
The new Nisan, Niro, Soul, Kona, Bolt, etc.
Would you pay 5,000 & the 2,500 price difference = 7,500 more for a Model 3?.
I believe that will eliminate quite a few potential buyers.
 

Dale Gardner

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#7
It's extremely myopic and ignorant to structure an EV rebate like this. :rolleyes: For many reasons, including:
  1. It is at least just as critical, if not more so, to encourage someone shopping for an expensive gas guzzler to get an EV instead; than it is to have someone buying an EV over a cheap economy car that gets decent mpg.
  2. The flat credit/rebate already incentivizes cheap EVs massively compared to expensive ones. As a car manufacturer, you can sell more cars at a lower price, knowing there is a built-in $5k price advantage, which gives you more margin to work with. As a consumer, $5k on a $25k car is a 20% savings (which is gigantic); versus $5k on a $85k car that is a 6% savings. Clearly, the low-end car buyer is advantaged significantly more in this situation in relative comparison.
  3. Doesn't cost the government much in proportion to rebate expensive cars, since they account for such a smaller volume of sales. Giving a $5k rebate to people buying a Tesla Roadster is a drop in the bucket. And again, that car is replacing one hell of a gas guzzler alternative, so it is well worth it.
  4. Not having a price cap is much easier to implement and much simpler for people to understand, which is more efficient for everyone overall.
  5. Higher cost EVs have significantly more range than a low cost EV. Which means that practically, they replace more gas trips and cover more miles.
  6. More expensive EVs offer more functionality in terms of technology like automatic traffic-based routing, or self-driving systems, which can all help productivity.
  7. High cost EVs provide additional utility such as AWD and off-road capability (for example, Rivian), which can replace that big 4x4 gas truck that may otherwise be needed for certain trips. They also have higher capacity in storage and number of people.
  8. Higher priced EVs have more advanced safety technology which reduces cost externality of injury/death from accidents.
  9. High MSRP EVs can be better for the environment. Which battery will hold up longer with less degradation: a cheap passively regulated battery with less sophisticated electronics, or a Tesla battery? Which one was manufactured in a more environmentally-responsible way? Which has lower cobalt? (hint: probably not the cheap battery cell)

I would send a letter to my representatives voicing my concerns if I was living in Canada, but alas, I am on the other side of the Detroit River.
 

MarkB

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Surrey, BC
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#8
It's extremely myopic and ignorant to structure an EV rebate like this. :rolleyes: For many reasons, including:
  1. It is at least just as critical, if not more so, to encourage someone shopping for an expensive gas guzzler to get an EV instead; than it is to have someone buying an EV over a cheap economy car that gets decent mpg..
  2. The flat credit/rebate already incentivizes cheap EVs massively compared to expensive ones. As a car manufacturer, you can sell more cars at a lower price, knowing there is a built-in $5k price advantage, which gives you more margin to work with. As a consumer, $5k on a $25k car is a 20% savings (which is gigantic); versus $5k on a $85k car that is a 6% savings. Clearly, the low-end car buyer is advantaged significantly more in this situation in relative comparison.
  3. Doesn't cost the government much in proportion to rebate expensive cars, since they account for such a smaller volume of sales. Giving a $5k rebate to people buying a Tesla Roadster is a drop in the bucket. And again, that car is replacing one hell of a gas guzzler alternative, so it is well worth it.
  4. Not having a price cap is much easier to implement and much simpler for people to understand, which is more efficient for everyone overall.
  5. Higher cost EVs have significantly more range than a low cost EV. Which means that practically, they replace more gas trips and cover more miles.
  6. More expensive EVs offer more functionality in terms of technology like automatic traffic-based routing, or self-driving systems, which can all help productivity.
  7. High cost EVs provide additional utility such as AWD and off-road capability (for example, Rivian), which can replace that big 4x4 gas truck that may otherwise be needed for certain trips. They also have higher capacity in storage and number of people.
  8. Higher priced EVs have more advanced safety technology which reduces cost externality of injury/death from accidents.
  9. High MSRP EVs can be better for the environment. Which battery will hold up longer with less degradation: a cheap passively regulated battery with less sophisticated electronics, or a Tesla battery? Which one was manufactured in a more environmentally-responsible way? Which has lower cobalt? (hint: probably not the cheap battery cell)

I would send a letter to my representatives voicing my concerns if I was living in Canada, but alas, I am on the other side of the Detroit River.
I agree that every EV that replaces an ICE is a great thing. But the pool is money is finite (unless paid for by a carbon tax!)

The EV incentives are part of a carrot and stick approach.
  • The incentive is part of the carrot (as well as HOV access, lower operating costs, etc).
  • Where I live, there's an additional $5000 incentive carrot.
  • Regular gas today was $1.73 per litre -- which is becoming quite the stick!

The object is to be an incentive -- that is, to cause someone to purchase an EV, who would otherwise have purchased an ICE. Some of that is to balance out some of the early-adopter premium that exists with EV's until battery pack prices come down to that magical level where sticker prices are equal (or close enough) that incentives are no longer required. It's for those folks that would like to purchase an EV, but can't afford to with the current price differential.

When I got my Model 3, I received a $5000 provincial incentive (also had a price cap, but $77,000). I thought the program may expire before I took delivery, but that $5000 made not difference in my purchase decision -- I was going to get the vehicle with or without the incentive. For me the $5000 wasn't so much an incentive, as it was a discount. In my case, the $5000 was wasted, since I would have bought the EV with or without it.

In my province we also have a progressive vehicle "luxury" tax. The additional costs (and lack of discounts/incentives) doesn't seem to hurt sales at all. This dude complained of $700,000 in provincial taxes on his purchase, but he still made the purchase!

That said -- I'm not liking the hard and fast price limits. The effect to to simply make much of the EV competition cost an additional (and arbitrary) $5k less than a lower-end Model 3.
 

Dale Gardner

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#10
I agree that every EV that replaces an ICE is a great thing. But the pool is money is finite (unless paid for by a carbon tax!)
Always nice to hear from someone who is also willing to think critically about these problems, and how best to solve them. :)

Of course, there are multiple ways to price the externalities caused by fossil fuel production and usage. But I am not as much a fan of carbon tax or cap/trade. My preferred approach is carbon fee and dividend, because the money goes to all the people that are impacted by the pollution, as well as impacted by the cost at the pump.

https://citizensclimatelobby.org/basics-carbon-fee-dividend/


There is currently a bill in the US congress to implement just such a system:
https://www.carbonpricingleadership...-fee-and-dividend-bill-now-before-us-congress
https://www.congress.gov/bill/116th-congress/house-bill/763/text
 

MarkB

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#11
I vote for a reduced price of the model 3 entry version:cool:
Even if they created a special model to slide under the magic $45,000 -- No UMC included, etc.
Of course, there are multiple ways to price the externalities caused by fossil fuel production and usage. But I am not as much a fan of carbon tax or cap/trade. My preferred approach is carbon fee and dividend, because the money goes to all the people that are impacted by the pollution, as well as impacted by the cost at the pump.
"Carbon Tax" is simply the name. It's actually closer to what you describe. Carbon is priced, and taxpayers get rebates. Sometimes some of the green initiatives are accounted for before the funds are rebated. But it's essentially the same thing as a dividend.
 

Dale Gardner

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#12
"Carbon Tax" is simply the name. It's actually closer to what you describe. Carbon is priced, and taxpayers get rebates. Sometimes some of the green initiatives are accounted for before the funds are rebated. But it's essentially the same thing as a dividend.
"Carbon Tax" and "Carbon Fee and Dividend" are actually two different approaches, and the distinction is important.
Definition of tax:
"a compulsory contribution to state revenue, levied by the government on workers' income and business profits, or added to the cost of some goods, services, and transactions."

The key difference being that the carbon fee and dividend system is revenue neutral. Therefore, it is not a tax which contributes to state revenue, but rather a fee which is returned back to the people.

However, it appears that Canada's new law is indeed an implementation of carbon fee (pricing) and dividend (rebate), as you alluded.

In the bill, it is structured as "carbon pricing" and "rebates", not as a "carbon tax":
https://www.canlii.org/en/ca/laws/stat/sc-2018-c-12-s-186/139160/sc-2018-c-12-s-186.html

As described on Wikipedia:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_pricing_in_Canada#Federal_legislation
"The Canadian Senate passed the Greenhouse Gas Pollution Pricing Act (GHGPPA)[27] in the fall of 2018 under Bill C-74.[28][29] The GHGPPA refers to charge or pricing instead of taxation."

Here is also the CCL press release about the law:
https://citizensclimatelobby.org/canada-adopts-carbon-fee-and-dividend-to-rein-in-climate-change/


I wasn't familiar with the Canadian law until I just read up on it. I'm very much in favor of this new law and find it exceptionally encouraging, :) Of course your country is a step ahead of mine yet again in this case :p, as our bill is not even passed yet. :(
 

PEIEVGUY

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#14
Placed my order on May 1, 19 thanks to Tesla making the Model 3 qualify for the Canadian iZev Rebate/Incentive.

We are financing through Tesla (via Royal Bank of Canada) and I noticed that it appears like Tesla has deducted the $5000 rebate immediately.

I was always under the impression that when ordering a Tesla you had to submit the paperwork for an EVIP rebate on your own. (I know some other auto dealerships would handle this for you like VW and Chevy.)

Is this correct or am I missing something?

screen-shot-2019-05-02-at-8-07-21-pm-png.25551
 

TrevP

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#15
As far as I know Tesla is deducting the rebate directly off the purchase price and they will file the paperwork to be reimbursed.
 

Mesprit87

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#18
They might just do it for the federal incentive but they didn't for Québec's last november.
Can't speak for the federal but the provincial was pretty straightforward, got the check within 2 months.
 

lance.bailey

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#19
for the BC rebate last December (2018) the rebate was deducted off the purchase price at the time of purchase.

It is no surprise that various provincial rebates are being handled differently across the provinces