Autopilot and FSD discussion

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ibgeek

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FSD won’t be released this year. There will be a expanded beta release this summer. The main reason is Tesla’s success. It has been needed as bait to build confidence in Tesla and to provide a clear demarcation between them and the other brands. But they have become a success without it and honestly it’s the only thing that could hurt tesla in 2021. They have everything else pretty much dialed-in. Elon and Tesla are still 100% behind FSDN believe is the future. They also are learning from the AI that it really can work and perform as they dreamed. Also, the competitors are not even close so there is no rush to market to obtain the FSD market share. I am very frustrated by this and I would love to be wrong. I was over the moon when I got my new computer as I thought FSD would be around the corner. I now have a super computer but the main benefit is being able to see traffic cones. And I had to give up album art for that. It also has nothing to do with regulators. If they were confident in the product they could release it in a country that would allow it from a test basis to prove how safe it is. And then use that to convince US regulators. Electrify Cuba Elon!

The FSD bait was not used as much to acquire new customers but to keep investors. Since in the day you could not make an argument that a Tesla would pay for itself through gasoline savings or even carbon credits one of the best features they had was for the first time a car might actually appreciate in value. With the normal rule is you lose 20% when you drive it off the lot. Even the idea of a car that could make money on its own or appreciate and value was mind blowing. They also use speed, coolness and fun But without energy savings you need something to keep investors happy and on the hook

Elon has learned that AI is more similar to humans then they originally thought, in that the more you learn the more you realize you don’t know.
THIS IS FUD! Nothing more. Please do not take any of it as fact.
 
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TesLou

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@shareef777 I don’t think the steering wheel nag is linked to FSD or EAP.... it goes back a notch further to auto steer of basic autopilot. And based on my non-Tesla data point of one (a Volvo) I have assumed the steering wheel nag is pretty consistent across manufacturers for any lane-keeping function. Not sure what specific regulation or industry standard it is meeting, but I don’t think it is just a Tesla creation that will quickly disappear.
When I first got my Model 3 in April 2018, nag was something like 1 min 20 sec in length. Later that year, it seems it was reduced to 45 secs. Then 30. Now it's 27 or so. Early on, it was also speed dependent; the faster you were going, the quicker the nag. I traffic jams, it's still a fairly long lag between nags, but nothing like it used to be. I've always had EAP, so that's the only angle I can speak from.
 
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DocScott

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@shareef777 I don’t think the steering wheel nag is linked to FSD or EAP.... it goes back a notch further to auto steer of basic autopilot. And based on my non-Tesla data point of one (a Volvo) I have assumed the steering wheel nag is pretty consistent across manufacturers for any lane-keeping function. Not sure what specific regulation or industry standard it is meeting, but I don’t think it is just a Tesla creation that will quickly disappear.
Gaze tracking is considered an acceptable alternative by regulators. I know Elon doesn't like it, but I think I'd prefer if Tesla had chosen that route.
 
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sduck

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The constant nagging to “keep hands on the steering wheel” is a bit much. It prompts me even when my hands ARE on the wheel while going straight.
Haven't you figured out yet that it requires just a bit of side to side torque in addition to having your hand/s on the wheel? Really, just a bit of practice and it becomes a natural thing to do without even thinking about it. I haven't had a nag in years.
I’ve had it start prompting when I’m stopped at a red light.
It doesn't do this. If it's happened to you it was probably only once, and was a fluke of some kind.
 

shareef777

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Haven't you figured out yet that it requires just a bit of side to side torque in addition to having your hand/s on the wheel? Really, just a bit of practice and it becomes a natural thing to do without even thinking about it. I haven't had a nag in years.

It doesn't do this. If it's happened to you it was probably only once, and was a fluke of some kind.
I’m well aware of the side to side torque requirement, still an annoying nag when it happens at least a couple times on every drive. Even more so when a slight movement doesn’t satisfy the nag and I have to apply more force, but adding just enough to disengage AP instead.

The AP nag at a red light is likely a bug as it definitely happens at least once a month.
 
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garsh

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I’m well aware of the side to side torque requirement, still an annoying nag when it happens at least a couple times on every drive. Even more so when a slight movement doesn’t satisfy the nag and I have to apply more force, but adding just enough to disengage AP instead.
I find that it's not a matter of supplying "more" force, but having to keep the force there for a second before it notices. It appears that the car only "samples" the steering wheel torque a couple times per second, so you have to be supplying force at the time it takes a reading.

Once I realized that, I stopped accidentally disengaging AP. I've now trained via muscle memory to just hold the same low force on the wheel periodically.
 

Needsdecaf

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Haven't you figured out yet that it requires just a bit of side to side torque in addition to having your hand/s on the wheel? Really, just a bit of practice and it becomes a natural thing to do without even thinking about it. I haven't had a nag in years.

I'm now over 26 months of Model 3 ownership and almost 60k worth of driving and I still haven't figured out a way to consistently keep the nag at bay. So no, I would absolutely prefer eye tracking.
 

sduck

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There are several good youtube videos about how to eliminate the nags. It's just a matter of keeping a small amount of torque on the wheel all or most of the time. Just some slight weight from a hand parked on the wheel will do.

Pretty clear description here within the first minute:
 
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shareef777

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There are several good youtube videos about how to eliminate the nags. It's just a matter of keeping a small amount of torque on the wheel all or most of the time. Just some slight weight from a hand parked on the wheel will do.

Pretty clear description here within the first minute:

Elon Musk: "“Any product that needs a manual to work is broken.”

The fact that there are YouTube instructional videos on HOW TO HOLD A STEERING WHEEL tells you all you need to know.

Incidentally this reminds me of the iPhone4 antenna gate fiasco and Steve Job's response of "you're holding it wrong" (rephrased).

It's not to say that it's a major issue, but is enough to stop me from buying FSD on my next Tesla (along with the high cost).
 
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sduck

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An argument to all that is: it benefits everyone if people don't give up on learning new things. Sure, this is a new thing, that has a bit of a learning curve. Reading the manual or watching a video or even just asking a friend on a forum (or in real life) is a small price to pay for the benefits of actually learning how to use the new thing correctly. You don't want to be one of those old geezers who's given up on learning new things, and has to constantly ask your kids how to work the computer, do you? I'm the guy that everyone comes to to ask their questions about how to use the new features on their new phone, which I'll happily do, but I also point out how i figured it out - usually a bit of googling, or paying attention to forums or videos i watch.

A car is a big, complicated, and potentially dangerous contraption. And like most people you probably learned how to work one of them in your teenage years, and had to pass all kinds of tests to be allowed to use one. And every time you get a new car, you usually get new features and tools that you need to learn a little about somehow. Sure, intuitive stuff is best, but the manual is always there if you can't figure out something to your liking. And when you do, you've learned something new. This little nag feature is just another feature like that - maybe it's not intuitive for you, but with a little knowledge and practice you CAN learn how to use it. Without nags. Unless you've given up on learning new things.
 

Madmolecule

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There are several good youtube videos about how to eliminate the nags. It's just a matter of keeping a small amount of torque on the wheel all or most of the time. Just some slight weight from a hand parked on the wheel will do.

I don’t really see how this is learning how to drive your vehicle better at all. I certainly agree that through muscle memory you can defeat the nags but that’s not really the purpose. To me that’s the argument that the nags are a waste and don’t make you a better driver it is only a liability escape tool for Tesla. I can’t see how they could even consider releasing the FSD without getting rid of the nags for a few months or at least making them user selectable. I’ve had to buy the car with FSD, insure the car with FSD, physically acknowledge that it is beta software and I’m using it at my own risk, how about letting me use the damn software. The nags really make it so I rarely use auto pilot because it’s easier to just drive. It does work pretty well on the interstate as long and you’re not making any major exchange changes or anything. But I have yet to let it go all the way through on a serious exchange. It’s not that it will fail and not make it, it’s just that it takes too long and it is making unnatural moves that makes the experience uncomfortable where I feel that someone that knows what’s going on take over and I turn it off. The street light nag also was cute at first but now it makes it not worth while using it. If they are remotely close to believing that FSD is finished then auto pilot should be in the gold stage by now. I hear that Elon has tremendous confidence in the product but it’s starting to be like the pope in the bullet proof Pope Mobile.

my current ratings are as follows based on my perception of what I was buying. Since there was no spec for any of this

Advanced auto pilot 3/5
auto parking 1/5
Advance summon 1/5
FSD 0/5

I could use more than just some minor bugs being fixed
 

DocScott

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my current ratings are as follows based on my perception of what I was buying. Since there was no spec for any of this

Advanced auto pilot 3/5
auto parking 1/5
Advance summon 1/5
FSD 0/5
I pretty much agree with those ratings. But I'd also say this:

How the car drives (handling, etc.): 8/5
Charging and range convenience: 7/5
Comfort (seats, climate control, etc.): 7/5
Entertainment system: 5/5
Upgrades over time (sentry mode, camp mode, increased acceleration, more convenience features, ...): 8/5
Fit and finish: 6/5 (of course, that's my car; YMMV)

In other words, those aspects all met or exceeded my expectations. The automation aspects have been disappointing relative to what I expected and in fact, after some free trials, I opted not to get FSD. But there were other things I was a little nervous about, like charging, that I've turned out to be more than satisfied with.
 
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Madmolecule

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I pretty much agree with those ratings. But I'd also say this:

How the car drives (handling, etc.): 8/5
Charging and range convenience: 7/5
Comfort (seats, climate control, etc.): 7/5
Entertainment system: 5/5
Upgrades over time (sentry mode, camp mode, increased acceleration, more convenience features, ...): 8/5
Fit and finish: 6/5 (of course, that's my car; YMMV)

In other words, those aspects all met or exceeded my expectations. The automation aspects have been disappointing relative to what I expected and in fact, after some free trials, I opted not to get FSD. But there were other things I was a little nervous about, like charging, that I've turned out to be more than satisfied with.
I am with you for the most part but my ratings in those categories would be a little bit different based on the price I paid for the vehicle. Comfort, entertainment fit and finished are very similar to a Toyota Camry. The sad part is I pay double the price. The biggest one I don’t think we’re addressing is resale value which I think we wanna believe as a five out of five but it is probably a one out of five. Early adopters were told they could never get as good of a deal is they were getting right then. That was not the truth we paid the most and there is not a huge demand for low Vin number teslas. Smart money would wait till they at least belt 100K of them and got the kinks out. I did put my $100 deposit down on the cyber truck but now I’m wondering what in the world was I thinking. What could possibly be in the advantage of getting one of the first cyber trucks. It is a revolutionary design but it is certainly untested and none of us know if we would really enjoy the benefit of it or just be frustrated that it doesn’t fit in the garage. But my biggest frustration is sitting here wondering why I loan the richest man on the planet $100 for R$D. That’s where I am on FSD. I bought the dream I invested in the company fantasy. They need to defined the product, supply the product, or stop selling a damn product. Vaporware has never been sold in the automotive industry but I’m starting to get the feeling why. And of course I put the deposit down on the try motor cyber truck. Knowing the cheaper versions were just marketing and probably would never be produced. I’m don't think that Tessa will be releasing the F150 killer any day now. Maybe the expedition Killer or the hummer Killer but the F150 Killer?

if this is a product tesla should release it.
if it is a dream. And by this I mean they don’t know exactly what it will do exactly how it will work and exactly when it will be ready. then they should make that very clear and have some type of payback for failure to perform.
I have believed Elon‘s dream many times and a lot of times he’s been able to pull it off. Maybe one day but it’s hard to believe that it will happen while I still own the vehicle that I’ve paid for this amazing capabilities.
I just get the feeling I’m one definition of way from being told my expectations were always unreasonable. I feel when they release FSDN the next generation I will just paid a lot of money for automatic cruise control.

Somehow Tesla wants us all to believe that there will be a great market for used computers in the future!!! I hope people don’t look at me like I’m trying to sell a tube TV in 2023

.
BF26FB5C-E08F-4F41-A386-F076FB881E77.jpeg
 
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Needsdecaf

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I pretty much agree with those ratings. But I'd also say this:

How the car drives (handling, etc.): 8/5
Charging and range convenience: 7/5
Comfort (seats, climate control, etc.): 7/5
Entertainment system: 5/5
Upgrades over time (sentry mode, camp mode, increased acceleration, more convenience features, ...): 8/5
Fit and finish: 6/5 (of course, that's my car; YMMV)

In other words, those aspects all met or exceeded my expectations. The automation aspects have been disappointing relative to what I expected and in fact, after some free trials, I opted not to get FSD. But there were other things I was a little nervous about, like charging, that I've turned out to be more than satisfied with.

I'd be interested in hearing what you are comparing it to for driving.
 

M3OC Rules

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I am with you for the most part but my ratings in those categories would be a little bit different based on the price I paid for the vehicle. Comfort, entertainment fit and finished are very similar to a Toyota Camry. The sad part is I pay double the price. The biggest one I don’t think we’re addressing is resale value which I think we wanna believe as a five out of five but it is probably a one out of five. Early adopters were told they could never get as good of a deal is they were getting right then. That was not the truth we paid the most and there is not a huge demand for low Vin number teslas. Smart money would wait till they at least belt 100K of them and got the kinks out. I did put my $100 deposit down on the cyber truck but now I’m wondering what in the world was I thinking. What could possibly be in the advantage of getting one of the first cyber trucks. It is a revolutionary design but it is certainly untested and none of us know if we would really enjoy the benefit of it or just be frustrated that it doesn’t fit in the garage. But my biggest frustration is sitting here wondering why I loan the richest man on the planet $100 for R$D. That’s where I am on FSD. I bought the dream I invested in the company fantasy. They need to defined the product, supply the product, or stop selling a damn product. Vaporware has never been sold in the automotive industry but I’m starting to get the feeling why. And of course I put the deposit down on the try motor cyber truck. Knowing the cheaper versions were just marketing and probably would never be produced. I’m don't think that Tessa will be releasing the F150 killer any day now. Maybe the expedition Killer or the hummer Killer but the F150 Killer?

if this is a product tesla should release it.
if it is a dream. And by this I mean they don’t know exactly what it will do exactly how it will work and exactly when it will be ready. then they should make that very clear and have some type of payback for failure to perform.
I have believed Elon‘s dream many times and a lot of times he’s been able to pull it off. Maybe one day but it’s hard to believe that it will happen while I still own the vehicle that I’ve paid for this amazing capabilities.
I just get the feeling I’m one definition of way from being told my expectations were always unreasonable. I feel when they release FSDN the next generation I will just paid a lot of money for automatic cruise control.

Somehow Tesla wants us all to believe that there will be a great market for used computers in the future!!! I hope people don’t look at me like I’m trying to sell a tube TV in 2023

. View attachment 37195
FSD is an option. Whether or not it's worth it is a personal thing. For most people its not. I agree people should be aware of what they are buying and not get caught up in the hype. And one can always add it later. You can't trust what they say. Its marketing, pricing goes up and down, and they have no problem changing their mind week to week. I wish less people would buy it because it's justifying a very high price for what you get now and it stinks to hear people unhappy with their purchase. For me it's an incredible opportunity to beta test this crazy feat of engineering so it's worth it to me. Otherwise, the only thing I would really miss is auto lane change but not enough to justify $10k.
 
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shareef777

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FSD is an option. Whether or not it's worth it is a personal thing. For most people its not. I agree people should be aware of what they are buying and not get caught up in the hype. And one can always add it later. You can't trust what they say. Its marketing, pricing goes up and down, and they have no problem changing their mind week to week. I wish less people would buy it because it's justifying a very high price for what you get now and it stinks to hear people unhappy with their purchase. For me it's an incredible opportunity to beta test this crazy feat of engineering so it's worth it to me. Otherwise, the only thing I would really miss is auto lane change but not enough to justify $10k.

Thing is, many of us bought in on the promise of it being released at the end of the year (IN 2019!). That came and went, and now 2020 is gone to. We’re into 2021 and, as everyone and their grandmother knew, FSD is harder then Tesla expected.

If they’d simply give an option for a refund (knowing that repurchase would come at the increased cost), or better yet give an option to keep FSD owner based instead of vehicle based this would placate every single detractor.
 
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Needsdecaf

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Thing is, many of us bought in on the promise of it being released at the end of the year (IN 2019!). That came and went, and now 2020 is gone to. We’re into 2021 and, as everyone and their grandmother knew, FSD is harder then Tesla expected.

If they’d simply give an option for a refund (knowing that repurchase would come at the increased cost), or better yet give an option to keep FSD owner based instead of vehicle based this would placate every single detractor.

Tesla could do a number of things that would placate buyers when it comes to FSD. Crediting partial to another vehicle (I don't think 100% refund is fair). Partial refund for those who are unimpressed. So far they have been unwilling to do so. Speaks volumes, IMO.
 

shareef777

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Tesla could do a number of things that would placate buyers when it comes to FSD. Crediting partial to another vehicle (I don't think 100% refund is fair). Partial refund for those who are unimpressed. So far they have been unwilling to do so. Speaks volumes, IMO.

Suppose it goes back to when you bought in. If someone paid for EAP and FSD (pre 03/2019) the former is all they've received and absolutely zilch for the latter. If they don't get anything by end of year (that'd be almost 3 years of zero returns, 4 for buyers in early early 2018). Their factory warranty would be over before they got anything in return. It's also pretty evident that's the reason Tesla moved some functionality from AP/EAP into FSD to justify "benefits" for the FSD purchase (ie, excuse not to give refunds). I know I wouldn't be entitled to a full refund since my FSD purchase included functionality like autopark/summon (which I honestly don't use or care for), but at the end of the day I bought FSD for .... FSD!
 

DocScott

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I'd be interested in hearing what you are comparing it to for driving.
I was using Macromolecule's scale, which was, as I understood it, in comparison to my expectations when I bought the car. A 5 would mean I got what I expected. I'd read reviews, so I knew it was pretty good as a car, but I was still pleasantly surprised/impressed. Part of that is personal taste, of course; the driving experience is pretty much dead on to what I want it to be.
 

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