Amber turn signals

garsh

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#81
So instead of 100 dead and 1000 injured there are 5 extra dead and 50 more injured. Seems enough for me to ban red blinkers.
Seriously arnis, stop over-stating the issue. There aren't people dying because a car has red turn signals. It's not like red turn signals makes a car invisible. There's just a little bit of statistical difference in accident rates.

See the table at the end of this study. Fatality rates were too low in the types of accidents included in the study (rear-endings during signaling) to draw any conclusions on the affect of turn signal color on fatalities.
https://crashstats.nhtsa.dot.gov/Api/Public/ViewPublication/811115
 

GDN

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#84
Why do automakers prefer to change this between North America and European versions of the car, when it would appear that the European version is perfectly acceptable in the U.S.?

Is it not acceptable for some reason I haven't heard?
I can't imagine that an amber bulb is much more expensive than a red one, and producing/stocking/installing two different parts is a logistics headache.
Some do and have used amber bulbs, but in this LED world aren't most of them just white with different colored plastic for the color?
 

Prodigal Son

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#87
Was just going to post the same thing actually. If the person behind you can tell the difference between something solid and something that flashes — well then I just hope we all have autopilot soon enough 😎

It’s about being able to differentiate between a turn signal and a brake light when you only have one light to go on. Imagine that you’re overtaking a car and get one brief flash of a light on the tail light nearest you and you can’t see their other tail light or high mount brake because the car behind them is so close. If it’s a red flash you don’t know if they’re changing lanes or tapping their brakes. These things matter, especially to more vulnerable road users like motorcyclists and bicyclists.


As a motorcyclist, I like not-dying.

As a driver, I like people not hitting my car that I like more than I like them.

Amber signals = everybody wins.
 

SoFlaModel3

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#89
It’s about being able to differentiate between a turn signal and a brake light when you only have one light to go on. Imagine that you’re overtaking a car and get one brief flash of a light on the tail light nearest you and you can’t see their other tail light or high mount brake because the car behind them is so close. If it’s a red flash you don’t know if they’re changing lanes or tapping their brakes. These things matter, especially to more vulnerable road users like motorcyclists and bicyclists.


As a motorcyclist, I like not-dying.

As a driver, I like people not hitting my car that I like more than I like them.

Amber signals = everybody wins.
In that example that your articulated, it seems as though you’re passing too closely that you can only see one tail light unless I misunderstood?
 

Prodigal Son

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#90
In that example that your articulated, it seems as though you’re passing too closely that you can only see one tail light unless I misunderstood?
Depends on the following distance of the car behind the “turn signal car”. A good example of this situation is a carpool lane: traffic moves at speed in one lane with the adjacent lane moving at speed. You don’t get to see both sides of the cars in the next lane until you’re almost complete abreast.
 

JasonF

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#91
I think I mentioned before that around the time the Model 3 was being shown off as a prototype, I remember seeing a video that had alternating color LED's in the taillights, so they would switch between yellow and red when the turn signal was active. Those didn't make it to production in the US, but they may have made it into Europe.

I haven't looked up the regulations, but I'd bet the US ones were swapped to red only because US regs require the turn signal to be a separate element if it's yellow, and the small taillights on the M3 don't have the space to keep the size of the brake light up to regulation and add another element.

I say swapped to red, but I also can't be sure that they were actually swapped. They still might be alternating color capable, but that's just turned off in software.
 

Needsdecaf

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#92
so terrible that Audi uses the red only on their current US sold cars (just to name one European car brands with red signals).
Want to know why? Becuase it's cheaper and they don't have to use amber. If you think a car company gives the tiniest **** about a safety issue that isn't glamorous, like crash test results, if it'll save them money to ignore it, you're deluding yourself.
Nope. Nothing to do with that.

Why do automakers prefer to change this between North America and European versions of the car, when it would appear that the European version is perfectly acceptable in the U.S.?

Is it not acceptable for some reason I haven't heard?
I can't imagine that an amber bulb is much more expensive than a red one, and producing/stocking/installing two different parts is a logistics headache.
It's market preference.

FMVSS 108 and SAE (applicable standards in the US) require certain sizes of the illuminated area, of the reflective non-illuminated area, etc.). Different standards (ECE) apply in the EU. Although possible, it has often proven challenging for manufacturers to have amber signals and separate red brakes and still meet the US surface area standards.

Other conflicting parts of the standards already push toward separate assemblies for separate markets (luminosity, divergence, etc.) so if you’re stuck with two assemblies already...
Amber vs. red has nothing to do with US lighting regulations.

I have a friend who is a YouTube automotive Journalist (250k subscribers). He's into arcane details like this (not as into it as Doug Demuro but almost). He prefers amber turn signals and has seen the trend in the US of European automakers shifting to red signals for their US products. He's been tracking it a while. Since he has direct access to the manufacturers, he asked them about it. The answer?

Market preference. That's all it is. And this is the answer from all the major European manufacturers we see here. It would be easy for them to create a light assembly that meets regulations but includes amber signals, but by in large, the US preference is for all red. So that's what they build.
 

JasonF

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#93
Market preference. That's all it is. And this is the answer from all the major European manufacturers we see here. It would be easy for them to create a light assembly that meets regulations but includes amber signals, but by in large, the US preference is for all red. So that's what they build.
That's probably true. Since it's mostly cheap imports like Toyota and Kia that use amber rear turn signals, red ones are considered more "prestigious" in the US market.
 

Prodigal Son

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#94
Market preference. That's all it is. And this is the answer from all the major European manufacturers we see here. It would be easy for them to create a light assembly that meets regulations but includes amber signals, but by in large, the US preference is for all red. So that's what they build.
My fellow Americans: STOP RUINING EVERYTHING.

xoxo and get off my lawn,
Cranky old dude.
 

Karl Sun

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#95
Market preference. That's all it is. And this is the answer from all the major European manufacturers we see here. It would be easy for them to create a light assembly that meets regulations but includes amber signals, but by in large, the US preference is for all red. So that's what they build.
Unfortunately it's not as simple as installing the EU lamp assemblies.

There would need to be a separate controller circuit [and associated wiring] for it to change the red turn signel using brake lamp to amber on US cars. And hte red brake element would need to stay on when amber turn signal is blinking.
 
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#96
I remember seeing a video that had alternating color LED's in the taillights, so they would switch between yellow and red when the turn signal was active. Those didn't make it to production in the US, but they may have made it into Europe.
EU requires turns to be only yellow. Red is not accepted.
Blinking (or rapidly blinking) red means emergency braking action - sometimes called dynamic brake lights.
Some vehicles have one step dynamic brake light, aka regular brake bulbs blink.
Many have multiple steps.. each one being more and more severe.
step is usually blinking brake lights, step 2 might be blinking brakes and blinking rear corner lights,
step 3 adds rear fog lights (those are more powerful than brakes) and step 4 are hazards (orange) activated if speed drop is huge.
Other combinations are not accepted.
Most german vehicles also have bulb replacement protocol (if any halogen bulb is broken, another red one might be used at lower voltage).

It is very likely that Tesla has single taillight version with differently coded software. BMW has same lights for US but light module is coded for US style lights (or any other market, there are at least 4-5 different regulatory settings I've found on 1999 BMW modules).

BTW, people can ask Mr Musk to switch to orange turn indicators. I bet he can do it if we really really want.
 

lairdb

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#97
Unfortunately it's not as simple as installing the EU lamp assemblies.

There would need to be a separate controller circuit [and associated wiring] for it to change the red turn signel using brake lamp to amber on US cars. And hte red brake element would need to stay on when amber turn signal is blinking.
It is known (including earlier in this thread) that the distinct turn circuit exists in the harness, and the harness is wired up to the point of connecting to the taillight. The turn/stop functions appear to be multiplexed in software, so a configuration change (and replacement taillight assy) should be the necessary steps.

[...]
It is very likely that Tesla has single taillight version with differently coded software. BMW has same lights for US but light module is coded for US style lights (or any other market, there are at least 4-5 different regulatory settings I've found on 1999 BMW modules).

BTW, people can ask Mr Musk to switch to orange turn indicators. I bet he can do it if we really really want.
It is known (including earlier in this thread) that the US taillights to date do not have separate turn circuit wiring or amber LEDs within the taillight assembly, although the harness going to the taillight does have the separate turn circuit.
 

JasonF

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#99
It is known (including earlier in this thread) that the US taillights to date do not have separate turn circuit wiring or amber LEDs within the taillight assembly, although the harness going to the taillight does have the separate turn circuit.
It is entirely possible that Tesla meant to go with amber/red dual-color LED's, and US regulators told them they can't unless they have a separate element. At that point, they decided that they may as well save a few $$ per light by getting single color.
 

SoFlaModel3

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Depends on the following distance of the car behind the “turn signal car”. A good example of this situation is a carpool lane: traffic moves at speed in one lane with the adjacent lane moving at speed. You don’t get to see both sides of the cars in the next lane until you’re almost complete abreast.
I see what you’re saying in that scenario, but I guess I still just don’t see the difference really. I promise I’m not trying to be difficult, just thinking of myself on the road and the difference between amber or red (or more common in Florida no blinker at all) doesn’t make much of a difference in how I drive.