# Worried About Snow? Don't Dismiss Getting Rear Wheel Drive!



## garsh

We've had several posts on M3OC where people are worried about getting a rear-wheel drive First Production Model 3, because they wanted all-wheel drive for when it snows. The problem is that everybody has preconceived notions about rear-wheel drive vehicles being bad in the snow, while front-wheel drive and all-wheel drive are better.

Those preconceived notions do not apply to electric cars!

Why do rear-wheel drive cars perform poorly in snow? It's because the engine is in front, while the drive wheels are in back. There's little weight over the drive wheels. That makes the wheels more prone to slip. Here are two articles that provide more detail:
Autotrader: Why Doesn't Rear-Wheel Drive Work in the Snow?
cars.com: How To Survive Winter With Rear-Wheel Drive

The main difference is that an electric car does NOT have the weight of an engine up front. Instead, it has a big empty frunk (in the case of a Tesla). The majority of the weight is in the battery, which sits on the floor between the front & rear wheels. If you look at the Tesla Press Kit, over 50% of the Model 3's weight is carried by the rear wheels. So the driving wheels have plenty of weight to help keep them from spinning.

In fact, because of this even distribution of weight, a rear-wheel drive electric car is just as good - if not better - in the snow as a front-wheel drive electric car! A front-wheel drive combustion vehicle has almost all of its weight over the driven wheels, which makes them very good in the snow. But a front-wheel drive electric car has only about half of its weight over the driven wheels. It may be hard to overcome those past prejudices, but a Bolt or Leaf will probably actually be worse in the snow than a rear-wheel drive Model 3.

Quora has put together a decent list of videos describing how well the original rear-wheel drive Model S cars dealt with the snow.
Quora: How well do Tesla cars drive in ice and snow?

Watch some of those. If you've found front-wheel drive vehicles to be good-enough in the snow for your situations in the past, then consider that a rear-wheel drive Tesla (which weighs a lot more) will probably work just as well in the snow.


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## KennethK

I had an i3 with rear wheel drive and it handled excellently in the snow with snow tires on. This is why I'm not too worried about getting rear wheel drive if the timing doesn't work out for the US tax break.


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## EVfusion

In the 70s lived in Kabul, Afghanistan - lots of snow in winter. For a while drove a rear-engined VW Beetle and never needed chains even in heavy snow - it was amazing. No winter tires in those days.


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## garsh

Fun_for_the_grandkids said:


> In the 70s lived in Kabul, Afghanistan - lots of snow in winter. For a while drove a rear-engined VW Beetle and never needed chains even in heavy snow - it was amazing. No winter tires in those days.


Well, of course, the engine was right over the drive wheels.


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## garsh

garsh said:


> ...a Bolt or Leaf will probably actually be worse in the snow that a rear-wheel drive Model 3.


I should point out that I've owned a Leaf for the past 5 years. It's been *great* in the snow with a set of snow tires. So I'm not worried at all about a Model 3 (as long as I get snow tires for it).

The bad part about a Leaf is that the tires easily spin when accelerating from a stop in wet or snowy roads. When accelerating, weight transfers from the front to the back, lightening the front end, and making it easier for the front wheels to spin. That also won't be a problem with a rear-wheel drive Model 3.


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## JWardell

In the good old days, we used to throw sand bags in the back to add weight over the rear drive wheels. We also used magical things called snow tires!

My RWD BMW was an absolute beast in the snow, I had no problem cutting through 18 inches. And tons of fun if you wanted to have it. 

Remember, AWD is NOT any safer in the snow. You have the same number of wheels braking and turning. It instills false confidence that can be dangerous. The real only advantage is getting moving when stuck, after you already buried yourself in a ditch.


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## Thomas Mikl

As I said even if you are stuck (happened to me once in my SUV AWD) and you are standing on ice, it wont help you. Of course it will help if you burried yourself in fluffy snow, but there a simple cardboard or plastic bag dragged under the driving wheel will also get you out...

The invest in really good winter tires is what makes the difference. So I am living in the alps (Austrian mountains) with LOADS of snow and actually my SUV is an unneeded thing and I actually would have gotten it with FWD if it had the option.
Our BMW i3 that we have as a second car actually drives better in winter, as it is lighter and has lower center of gravity (and RWD).

IMHO the only reason the get AWD is performance 0-60mph.
If you think that AWD will help you with cornering in rain or snow, you are mistaken, good tries and suspension do a lot more for you.
Testdrive an ICE car BMW 340 and a 340 with X-Drive, I did and honestly the RWD handles better in rain, because the steering angle is better when you have no drag at the front wheels.


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## Paul Hindle

Rear wheel drive is so much nicer than FWD, that's one of the reasons most sports cars have RWD, the drive wheels are independent of the steering wheels. Sports cars with the engine in the front do suffer a little from the engine weight in the front, my old Porsche 911 has the engine in the back which gives it a weight distribution of roughly 40 front 60 back. F1 cars have RWD and a weight distribution of 47/53 - I think that is what the Model 3 has.


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## Mike

garsh said:


> It's been *great* in the snow with a set of snow tires.


This is the biggest physical contribution to safe winter driving.

Only item with more importance? A winter driving technique suitable for road conditions.


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## F91

I didn't bother reading all the links on how well the RWD S does in the snow. What I do know is that the Seattle area has lots of hills. Steep hills. When these hills are covered in snow, they are slicker than hell to get up , you know, to get home after work. There are other, year round benefits to having the awd model 3 too
, all of which I plan on exploring when we get ours.


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## garsh

F91 said:


> What I do know is that the Seattle area has lots of hills. Steep hills


Dude, I live in Pittsburgh. The only city with hills to rival ours is San Francisco. Some of our old streets are so steep that they're actually steps! And we have the Official Steepest Residential Street in the World.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canton_Avenue


But regarding AWD, I hear you. I'd prefer having AWD as well. I wrote this article mainly to make people realize that a RWD electric car will be just as good as a FWD combustion vehicle in the snow.


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## JBsC6

Spouses want awd. For winter driving for the kids safety. 

No man argues with that no matter the logic.

You nod, you smile and you make awd a reality.

Just a heads up


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## JBsC6

Btw..I daily drive a rear wheel drive corvette in the ny metro winters of say 100'inches of snow each winter...

I drive around just fine the day after a 27 inch snowfall in one day.

With today's high performance summer tires,,,dedicated winter snow tires make getting around in the snow a breeze.

With all wheel drive vehicles most people just use all season tires 12 months A year


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## F91

garsh said:


> Dude, I live in Pittsburgh. The only city with hills to rival ours is San Francisco. Some of our old streets are so steep that they're actually steps! And we have the Official Steepest Street in the World.
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canton_Avenue
> 
> 
> But regarding AWD, I hear you. I'd prefer having AWD as well. I wrote this article mainly to make people realize that a RWD electric car will be just as good as a FWD combustion vehicle in the snow.


 Right. Except Seattle is a reference point. I live in the suburbs across Puget Sound. We also have Mountain passes in every direction. During the winter, said mountain passes will start having restrictions. The last two restrictions during a major event (every month) are AWD required and AWD with traction devices (ie: chains). If you don't have them, you are not allowed to go over the pass. End of story.


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## garsh

JBsC6 said:


> Spouses want awd. For winter driving for the kids safety.
> No man argues with that no matter the logic.


You need to learn to "discuss" with your wife, not argue. 
I managed to convince my wife that we'll be just fine with a rear-wheel drive Tesla.


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## JBsC6

garsh said:


> You need to learn to "discuss" with your wife, not argue.
> I managed to convince my wife that we'll be just fine with a rear-wheel drive Tesla.


Twenty four years this month...there are things you know are battles left alone...awd for her car is one of those subjects...

The auto manufacturers have successfully communicated to many people primarily mothers and women that awd translates into the capability to be safe during inclement NY metro area snow storms...

This is a discussion that a husband if he manages to convey rational thought will lose big time when the mother in law gets her daughter alone...much less the three sisters or girlfriends...

It's cheaper to buy awd and possibly lose a portion of the federal tax benefit...

Hahaha...I hope your having a good laugh as you read this...

At this point in my married life, ,I know long term....telling my wife I love her, she is right...I want her to be safe with awd ...is the big win...

For you guys that have wives who don't mind rWd , don't have friends and loved ones to warn of the ridiculously not true danger of rear wheel drive...just buy snow tires....

Good luck and enjoy the early delivery....I have to wait for awd as a matter of breathing ...and smiling every day...

Married life...gotta love it!

Know your spouse and act accordingly


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## pjfw8

JBsC6 said:


> Btw..I daily drive a rear wheel drive corvette in the ny metro winters of say 100'inches of snow each winter...
> 
> I drive around just fine the day after a 27 inch snowfall in one day.
> 
> With today's high performance summer tires,,,dedicated winter snow tires make getting around in the snow a breeze.
> 
> With all wheel drive vehicles most people just use all season tires 12 months A year


I have used winter tires for many years with great success. AWD is not a substitute, but AWD with winter tires is much better than RD and winter tires. Remember that winter tires give you the option to run true summer tires and extend the life of the summer or all season tire.


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## Tesla2ElectricBoogaloo

Had this discussion in the wheels/tires thread.

My current line of thinking, as someone in the Northeast who is going to be brave and order "First Production":

I'm going to get the 18" aero wheels/tires combo on my car. The tires are rated slightly better in snow than the 19s are. Also, winter is exactly when you'd want to have the added range from the aero wheels (cold weather, "slop" on the road increasing rolling resistance, etc), so any gain you can get from those wheels to offset environmental variables will help.

But then in Summer.......that's when I buy some sweet looking 19's with some nice tires on them, and just swap/rotate seasonally to save the wear and tear on both sets of tires and wheels.


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## Ybonac

I live in Switzerland, nearby the mountains. We go skiing most of the WE in winter, and have to bring our daughters to school sometimes in the snow. We have a Ford Grand C Max with good winter tyres and it was OK (this car will be replaced in September by a Renault Zoe R90, our first electric car). We have as well a BMW X1 (company car), and I have to say that it "feels" safer. I am not sure that we could "climb" as easily our snowy roads with a RWD T3. I have to admit that 95% of the time we do not need AWD, that is why it is still unclear for me if we have to wait and pay more for the AWD version...


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## Tim M

Tesla2ElectricBoogaloo said:


> I'm going to get the 18" aero wheels/tires combo on my car. The tires are rated slightly better in snow than the 19s are. Also, winter is exactly when you'd want to have the added range from the aero wheels (cold weather, "slop" on the road increasing rolling resistance, etc), so any gain you can get from those wheels to offset environmental variables will help.
> 
> But then in Summer.......that's when I buy some sweet looking 19's with some nice tires on them, and just swap/rotate seasonally to save the wear and tear on both sets of tires and wheels.


Exactly what I'm planning to do.. $1,500 to essentially swap wheels is insane when I can buy whatever *second* set I want for $1,500 or less pretty easily and be able to seasonally swap.

A lot has been discussed in this thread about how the weight will be enough on the rear wheels... however, what about the fact that the wheels that actually *steer* will have no power to them? That's what makes my 4WD SUV so much more capable in the ice & snow.. it'll actually turn.


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## Brokedoc

I just pointed out in another thread that the newer Model S75 and 75D no longer have a large performance gap. 4.3 sec vs 4.2 sec. Perhaps the M3 will also not get a dramatic performance boost with dual motor.

Clearly an electric AWD has better traction ability than a RWD ICE.

Having had spent several years working EMS in NYC, Many accidents occur because people diving AWD think they also have All Wheel Stop and drive way faster than they should in bad weather. AWD traditionally excels at very slow speed to prevent getting stuck.

The way the estimator is looking, if I wait for dual motor, I will lose out on part or all of the fed tax credit PLUS I will need to pay more for the dual motor option and possibly not get a big performance boost.

I'm really looking hard at getting RWD with a set of these in the trunk on really snowy days:
https://shop.tesla.com/us/en/produc...snow-chain---trak-sport.html?sku=1052776-00-A


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## Thomas Mikl

From I think 2 years ago.
Our i3 RWD did just fine.
My brothers BMW 330i did just fine.
Did my AWD Sportage feel any better? Well it made me feel good to have AWD, but did I use it? I doubt it. Actually if my model would be available with FWD I would have skipped the AWD.
However I have first class premium Micheline or Pirelli winter tires on all those cars.


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## teslaliving

garsh said:


> We've had several posts on M3OC where people are worried about getting a rear-wheel drive First Production Model 3, because they wanted all-wheel drive for when it snows. The problem is that everybody has preconceived notions about rear-wheel drive vehicles being bad in the snow, while front-wheel drive and all-wheel drive are better.
> 
> Those preconceived notions do not apply to electric cars!
> 
> Why do rear-wheel drive cars perform poorly in snow? It's because the engine is in front, while the drive wheels are in back. There's little weight over the drive wheels. That makes the wheels more prone to slip. Here are two articles that provide more detail:
> Autotrader: Why Doesn't Rear-Wheel Drive Work in the Snow?
> cars.com: How To Survive Winter With Rear-Wheel Drive
> 
> The main difference is that an electric car does NOT have the weight of an engine up front. Instead, it has a big empty frunk (in the case of a Tesla). The majority of the weight is in the battery, which sits on the floor between the front & rear wheels. If you look at the Tesla Press Kit, over 50% of the Model 3's weight is carried by the rear wheels. So the driving wheels have plenty of weight to help keep them from spinning.
> 
> In fact, because of this even distribution of weight, a rear-wheel drive electric car is just as good - if not better - in the snow as a front-wheel drive electric car! A front-wheel drive combustion vehicle has almost all of its weight over the driven wheels, which makes them very good in the snow. But a front-wheel drive electric car has only about half of its weight over the driven wheels. It may be hard to overcome those past prejudices, but a Bolt or Leaf will probably actually be worse in the snow that a rear-wheel drive Model 3.
> 
> Quora has put together a decent list of videos describing how well the original rear-wheel drive Model S cars dealt with the snow.
> Quora: How well do Tesla cars drive in ice and snow?
> 
> Watch some of those. If you've found front-wheel drive vehicles to be good-enough in the snow for your situations in the past, then consider that a rear-wheel drive Tesla (which weighs a lot more) will probably work just as well in the snow.


While much of this is true, I think it's a bit misleading to encourage people to get FWD when they think they need AWD. Having driven a Tesla through 3 winters in New England and after owning AWD vehicles for the 20 years before it I will saw that the RWD Tesla does better than I thought and a TON better than my 1981 Porsche 928 did. That being said there are some things to consider:

1) Its very low to the ground so clearance over the snow and slush is an issue
2) Its very heavy which can be helpful at times, but when you start sliding mass counts.
3) Regenerative braking can be a pain to manage in slippery weather. Turning it to low as people suggest isn't a great answer. I found feathering the accelerator pedal to be a better option.
4) FWD vs AWD for braking makes no difference.
5) But to get going AWD makes a HUGE difference. I never have trouble stopping or steering once I was moving but I have often wondered if I would ever start moving.
6) Regardless, good snow tires are very helpful.

I've driven my S in blizzards and through every winter for 3 years and have no regrets getting it. But it is the last RWD car i'm owning while I live in New England...


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## nisse

Is awd safer than 2wd? A Swedish insurance company stated that comparable models have as many percentual accidents with awd as 2wd, but the awd accidents were at higher speeds.

I don't doubt 4wd is safer technically, but psychologically not. You don't feel when it's slippery in the same way and you go faster. When you get into a situation in higher speed with a heavier car you crash harder.


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## garsh

teslaliving said:


> ...I think it's a bit misleading to encourage people to get FWD *when they think they need AWD*.


I've bolded the relevant part.

The question is, do people think they need AWD because they've grown up knowing that front-wheel drive is better in snow than rear-wheel drive (and FWD is not an option for the Model 3)?

Sure, AWD will have an advantage accelerating under some circumstances, but that's it. It doesn't brake any better. It doesn't turn any better. And snow tires will help acceleration more than AWD will.


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## Michael Russo

nisse said:


> Is awd safer than 2wd? A Swedish insurance company stated that comparable models have as many procentual accidents when awd as 2wd, but the awd accidents were at higher speeds.
> 
> I don't doubt 4wd is safer technically, but psychologically not. You don't feel when it's slippery in the same way and you go faster. When you get into a situation in higher speed with a heavier car you crash harder.





garsh said:


> I've bolded the relevant part.
> 
> The question is, do people think they need AWD because they've grown up knowing that front-wheel drive is better in snow than rear-wheel drive (and FWD is not an option for the Model 3)?
> 
> Sure, AWD will have an advantage accelerating under some circumstances, but that's it. It doesn't brake any better. It doesn't turn any better. And snow tires will help acceleration more than AWD will.


I have had FWD (which I have learned to hate because it feels so 'stiff' in curves, and because, if you lose it, you never get it back), many RWD (mainly BMW over a period of 25 years, so quite some evolution) and now an X-Drive X5.

No doubt AWD gives you additional security in curves (which mean you _can_ actually take them faster, yet you don't have to! ) in all circumstances, including on snow... At equivalent speed, you'll _always_ be safer in AWD compared to any other traction mode...

Equally certain in my mind is you MUST have proper winter tires (WT) with RWD (even with best RWD these days) otherwise you'll often find yourself stuck. Actually, as I wrote elsewhere, WT are a + _for all cars_ @ temperatures < 7 deg.C/45 deg.F because of the softer rubber blend they're made of. In fact, I have them on my leased X5 because my employer mandates it for safety reasons and several EU countries have made them mandatory during winter (e.g. 'O to O' in :germany:, which would translate to 'O to E' in English, i.e. October to Easter... ).

Now, T≡SLA cars are different because of their very low center of gravity which means, as @garsh alluded to, you don't necessarily need AWD in them as much as you do for ICE cars...

@teslaliving 's experience, with his (Midnight Silver) S however, is very relevant for those who live in (heavy) snowy areas during winter. He now has lived for many years with a RWD + WT and will not take another. If you live in a similar geography, it seems good to know.

If not, which will certainly be true for me, although I'll be so close to the Pyrenees that I'll certainly be keen to drive up there to go down a few snowy slopes during winter, I think that Garsh's input is equally valid, and a combo RWD/WT should be just fine in 99+ % of circumstances!

Good exchange... thx guys, that's how we learn from eachother!


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## Mike

Michael Russo said:


> WT are a + _for all cars_ @ temperatures < 7 deg.C/45 deg.F because of the softer rubber blend they're made of. In fact, I have them on my leased X5 because my employer mandates it for safety reasons


....and my insurance company adds another 5% discount because of proper winter tires.......


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## Thomas Mikl

Michael Russo said:


> At equivalent speed, you'll _always_ be safer in AWD compared to any other traction mode...


I am sorry, but this statement is false and it is this misconception that actually leads to some incidents. Because people think they are safer and the car looses grip anyways. For example in heavy rain or if you encounter an ice road, your car will break contact at the same time with AWD or any other drive mode. Now I am not saying AWD is worse (physically) but it is by no means safer.


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## Michael Russo

Thomas Mikl said:


> I am sorry, but this statement is false and it is this misconception that actually leads to some incidents. Because people think they are safer and the car looses grip anyways. For example in heavy rain or if you encounter an ice road, your car will break contact at the same time with AWD or any other drive mode. Now I am not saying AWD is worse (physically) but it is by no means safer.


Maybe I should have written: 'at equivalent speed and for similar road conditions'... clearly when you break contact you will be in trouble with all types of tractions. In my experience, you'll be able to get it back (up to a certain point of course!) somewhat easier in an AWD car... in my personal experience anyway.
That was my point.

Yet I certainly agree that one should not feel overconfident with AWD when the going gets tough ...


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## Spinball

I think everyone that has put AWD on a "safety" pedestal should be forced to recite the following 1000 times:

"AWD *only* helps under acceleration."

Or as an alternative they can reread the oft-cited consumer reports study and/or the many many tire tests on YouTube showing the same.


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## Uricasha

You think RWD will handle the haboobs?


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## Tesla2ElectricBoogaloo

Matthew Morgan said:


> You think RWD will handle the haboobs?


'round here, I'm more worried about this:


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## kweezy

The woman with the shovel does look vicious. Hopefully the panel gaps aren't so wide on your Model 3 that the shovel gets through them. Scary!

As an aside, I see you're getting the RWD. I'm in Boston, tempted to get the same thing instead of waiting / losing fed tax credit for AWD.


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## Tesla2ElectricBoogaloo

kweezy said:


> As an aside, I see you're getting the RWD. I'm in Boston, tempted to get the same thing instead of waiting / losing fed tax credit for AWD.


I actually only use my car once a week for my commute now, since I can walk to the commuter rail station. Plus I have the option to work from home if the T is hosed too badly, so it's not as big a deal for me as it once was. The range makes it so that my Model 3 will also become the distance car, too, so the Long Range version still makes sense.

The 18's seem to have a decent rating in snow, and now that we know the aero caps come off, the 18" wheels don't look bad at all, especially on the red.

I see the First Production as a savings for me. Now I don't have to get the 19's ($1500), I'm not getting FSD until it's actually turned on ($3,000), I'll get the full federal credit ($7,500) and the state rebate ($2,500...hopefully, Model 3 isn't listed yet).

$14,500 is a decent swing in the balance of my bank account....not to mention the tax savings of not adding the wheels or FSD to the purchase price up front.


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## JWardell

Tesla2ElectricBoogaloo said:


> 'round here, I'm more worried about this:
> View attachment 2909


You're getting me excited for RWD and the snow! Worth the trek out to Ayer for the airstrip but I need to start scoping for good parking lots a litle closer


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## Tesla2ElectricBoogaloo

JWardell said:


> You're getting me excited for RWD and the snow! Worth the trek out to Ayer for the airstrip but I need to start scoping for good parking lots a litle closer


Yep. I can hear the autocross guys on weekends from where I live. (but not any of the Teslas, of course).


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## garsh

Just so we're clear, I'm not trying to convince anybody that AWD is a waste of money. It definitely provides more acceleration force, where acceleration is meant in the physics sense - a change in speed _or direction_. It provides more force for increasing velocity, as well as some additional amount when turning. I'm only trying to point out that:

RWD in an electric car is not _nearly_ as bad as RWD in a front-engine combustion vehicle.
a RWD electric car is actually _better _in snow than a FWD electric car due to weight distribution & weight shifting under acceleration.
I personally was hoping to get an AWD Model 3, but changed my plans when I saw the long wait times for that feature.


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## kweezy

I think really what we're all struggling with is whether RWD electric is equal or better than FWD ICE, and in what situations exactly it's better or worse (handling on curves vs accelerating uphill, etc.)


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## garsh

kweezy said:


> I think really what we're all struggling with is whether RWD electric is equal or better than FWD ICE


I think it will be comparable.


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## JWardell

garsh said:


> Just so we're clear, I'm not trying to convince anybody that AWD is a waste of money. It definitely provides more acceleration force, where acceleration is meant in the physics sense - a change in speed _or direction_. It provides more force for increasing velocity, as well as some additional amount when turning. I'm only trying to point out that:
> 
> RWD in an electric car is not _nearly_ as bad as RWD in a front-engine combustion vehicle.
> a RWD electric car is actually _better _in snow than a FWD electric car due to weight distribution & weight shifting under acceleration.
> I personally was hoping to get an AWD Model 3, but changed my plans when I saw the long wait times for that feature.


The agree button is not enough for every word typed here. It all bears repeating! That, and I look forward to the sheer added fun of torque-from-behind


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## Brokedoc

JWardell said:


> The agree button is not enough for every word typed here. It all bears repeating! That, and I look forward to the sheer added fun of torque-from-behind


As I understand it from Elon's statements, even AWD will have the rear motor optimized for rapid acceleration for stop and go and the front motor will be optimized for highway efficiency. As no specs have been released yet, its possible that the AWD will be similar to the S/X in that it will have have a weaker rear motor than the current RWD variety. The P version would then have the same rear motor with the added power of the front motor.


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## Thomas Mikl

From a physics standpoint for the one asking: "Is RWD electric better than FWD ICE car?"

With 99.9% of cars due to weight distribution a Model 3 with RWD will be far superior in any driving conditions than a FWD ICE car. The only reason RWD ICE cars are not so good is weight distribution. For example if you have a ICE car with middle motor or back motor (Porsche, Ferrari, some Lotus, TVR,... you get the idea) with their modern assist systems they are far superior with RWD than FWD even in bad weather, as their weight distribution is calculated and tested extremely well (and cost you a fortune).
That is why a professional tester quoted "driving the model 3 feels like a Porsche" as Porsche is well known to be one of the suspension and weight distribution fanatics and that is why their cars drive so well even in bad weather. OK some of their cars now use AWD, but in reverse to standard AWD cars. Porsche AWD actually has more torque on the back wheels standard (20:80) even in their SUVs. And having driven a Macaan several times I can say this is darn perfect if you can afford it for an ICE car.


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## Paul Hindle

Regarding the expected traction of an ICE car with FWD vs Model 3 RWD I did a quick calculation using a 2012 Hyundai Genesis with 52/48 weight distribution and a kerb weight of 3750 lbs. Weight on the Hyundai's front wheels is 1,950 lbs, the M3 weight on the rears is 2,033 lbs with a 47/53 distribution. The M3 is 100 lbs heavier but has an extra 83 lbs on the rear wheels than the Genesis so probably a little better in the snow. 

I haven't decided whether or not to get AWD, I could justify it because I live in a snowy area and it sounds like AWD helps a little with range... we'll see.


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## garsh

Paul Hindle said:


> Weight on the Hyundai's front wheels is 1,950 lbs, the M3 weight on the rears is 2,033 lbs with a 47/53 distribution.


Keep in mind that weight also shifts towards the rear when accelerating. These are the static weights.


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## GTV6

I've had extensive experience with Audi Quattros. AWD is great and preferable but in my last seven New England winters in TDIs with good snow tires I've had nary a problem. The real limiting factor in heavy snow is ground clearance. You will wreck your Quattro successfully forcing it through the snow bank left by the plow at the end of the drive. On ice nothing wins. I'm going long range rwd 18" with snows on possibly 17"s. I agree on various commenters praising Nokian hakkapelittas (say that fast). Tire Rack does not carry them I assume because of availability in the quantities they require. Michelin ice-x and blizzacks are also good. Get AWD if you wish but absolutely get cold weather suitable tires if you drive regularly under 40's F.


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## Thomas Mikl

Paul Hindle said:


> Regarding the expected traction of an ICE car with FWD vs Model 3 RWD I did a quick calculation using a 2012 Hyundai Genesis with 52/48 weight distribution and a kerb weight of 3750 lbs. Weight on the Hyundai's front wheels is 1,950 lbs, the M3 weight on the rears is 2,033 lbs with a 47/53 distribution. The M3 is 100 lbs heavier but has an extra 83 lbs on the rear wheels than the Genesis so probably a little better in the snow.
> 
> I haven't decided whether or not to get AWD, I could justify it because I live in a snowy area and it sounds like AWD helps a little with range... we'll see.


Static weight and front:rear weight is only the beginning.
You also have to weigh in how the weight is dstributed including center of gravity for the car.
Now with the Tesla battery being heavy and low in the car the momentum shift when accelerating is totally different than even in a Ferrari that may only have its center of gravity a few inches higher.


----------



## PNWmisty

Thomas Mikl said:


> Static weight and front:rear weight is only the beginning.
> You also have to weigh in how the weight is dstributed including center of gravity for the car.
> Now with the Tesla battery being heavy and low in the car the momentum shift when accelerating is totally different than even in a Ferrari that may only have its center of gravity a few inches higher.


That's a good point (a BEV has less rearward weight shift under acceleration). However, snow drivers aren't often concerned with how fast they can accelerate, as long as they can. More importantly for snow driving is hill climbing ability. All vehicles transfer more weight to the rear wheels when trying to climb a hill. This is where a rear drive vehicle has the advantage (vs. FWD) in snow/ice and a BEV's lower center of gravity has a minimal effect on this compared to the acceleration transfer you bring up. So a RWD Tesla retains this snow/ice advantage while also having a better weight distribution vs. a ICE rwd.

As a ski enthusiast who prefers deep snow and storm cycles, I have been driving through extreme winter events on steep, twisty roads on a regular basis most of my life. And I agree with earlier comments that you don't need AWD, you need winter tires. That said, I would like a Model 3 in AWD, not for snow/ice but for the slight gain in battery range. But that's not enough to make me wait for the AWD option!


----------



## teslaliving

Michael Russo said:


> I have had FWD (which I have learned to hate because it feels so 'stiff' in curves, and because, if you lose it, you never get it back), many RWD (mainly BMW over a period of 25 years, so quite some evolution) and now an X-Drive X5.
> 
> No doubt AWD gives you additional security in curves (which mean you _can_ actually take them faster, yet you don't have to! ) in all circumstances, including on snow... At equivalent speed, you'll _always_ be safer in AWD compared to any other traction mode...
> 
> Equally certain in my mind is you MUST have proper winter tires (WT) with RWD (even with best RWD these days) otherwise you'll often find yourself stuck. Actually, as I wrote elsewhere, WT are a + _for all cars_ @ temperatures < 7 deg.C/45 deg.F because of the softer rubber blend they're made of. In fact, I have them on my leased X5 because my employer mandates it for safety reasons and several EU countries have made them mandatory during winter (e.g. 'O to O' in :germany:, which would translate to 'O to E' in English, i.e. October to Easter... ).
> 
> Now, T≡SLA cars are different because of their very low center of gravity which means, as @garsh alluded to, you don't necessarily need AWD in them as much as you do for ICE cars...
> 
> @teslaliving 's experience, with his (Midnight Silver) S however, is very relevant for those who live in (heavy) snowy areas during winter. He now has lived for many years with a RWD + WT and will not take another. If you live in a similar geography, it seems good to know.
> 
> If not, which will certainly be true for me, although I'll be so close to the Pyrenees that I'll certainly be keen to drive up there to go down a few snowy slopes during winter, I think that Garsh's input is equally valid, and a combo RWD/WT should be just fine in 99+ % of circumstances!
> 
> Good exchange... thx guys, that's how we learn from eachother!


Technically mine is "Dolphin Grey". They replaced that with the darker greys later on. I love my grey. Split between the midnight silver on the 3 and the real silver. We shall see.


----------



## Tesla2ElectricBoogaloo

Spinball said:


> I think everyone that has put AWD on a "safety" pedestal should be forced to recite the following 1000 times:
> 
> "AWD *only* helps under acceleration."
> 
> Or as an alternative they can reread the oft-cited consumer reports study and/or the many many tire tests on YouTube showing the same.


From my Audi experiences....it also tends to help slightly in minor slipping situations. Since the computer is controlling power to all 4 wheels, obviously there is more that can be done to prevent slipping in an AWD vs RWD.....so it's not ALL about acceleration.

Good example....when the temperature here after a snowstorm rises to above freezing and now the roads are covered with snow, slush, AND puddles. I've definitely not noticed a puddle or 2 thanks to the varied road conditions, and the traction control definitely helped keep me from hydroplaning.


----------



## F91

Do I "need" a glass roof? Upgraded wheels? A certain paint color? Please, since we are sure of what "we" need.


----------



## Spinball

Tesla2ElectricBoogaloo said:


> From my Audi experiences....it also tends to help slightly in minor slipping situations. Since the computer is controlling power to all 4 wheels, obviously there is more that can be done to prevent slipping in an AWD vs RWD.....so it's not ALL about acceleration.
> 
> Good example....when the temperature here after a snowstorm rises to above freezing and now the roads are covered with snow, slush, AND puddles. I've definitely not noticed a puddle or 2 thanks to the varied road conditions, and the traction control definitely helped keep me from hydroplaning.


I don't think that's obvious or true. Traction control works on all 4 wheels on FWD/RWD cars too as it's generally controlled via the ABS system so which wheels are driven is irrelevant.

TC is generally about _slowing _the slipping wheel, not speeding it up.


----------



## Thomas Mikl

PNWmisty said:


> That's a good point (a BEV has less rearward weight shift under acceleration). However, snow drivers aren't often concerned with how fast they can accelerate, as long as they can. More importantly for snow driving is hill climbing ability. All vehicles transfer more weight to the rear wheels when trying to climb a hill. This is where a rear drive vehicle has the advantage (vs. FWD) in snow/ice and a BEV's lower center of gravity has a minimal effect on this compared to the acceleration transfer you bring up. So a RWD Tesla retains this snow/ice advantage while also having a better weight distribution vs. a ICE rwd.
> 
> As a ski enthusiast who prefers deep snow and storm cycles, I have been driving through extreme winter events on steep, twisty roads on a regular basis most of my life. And I agree with earlier comments that you don't need AWD, you need winter tires. That said, I would like a Model 3 in AWD, not for snow/ice but for the slight gain in battery range. But that's not enough to make me wait for the AWD option!


Very true and good points.
Actually my very first car back in 1991 was a VW beetle (the original one) with the back motor and RWD. Winters were pretty tough here in Austria then and I did get up any mountain with that car, leaving a lot of other RWDs behind as the beetle also had a unique back and low weight distribution. And if you have ever driven up a road to a glacier in heavy winter snow to get that powder skiiing feeling you know the conditions I mean hehe


----------



## garsh

F91 said:


> Do I "need" a glass roof? Upgraded wheels? A certain paint color? Please, since we are sure of what "we" need.


You didn't quote a post, so I don't really know which post you were responding to.


----------



## Thomas Mikl

garsh said:


> You didn't quote a post, so I don't really know which post you were responding to.


I think he was saying that we cannot tell what somebody else "needs". However in my opinion he is referring to a discussion we are not having.
We are talking about if a certain situation needs AWD to make it safer or if a situation demands AWD to be safe. This discussion is based on facts, that we are discussion here. This is just the iteration of facts for people that are in the process of deciding to get an objective and scientific view of the situation.
In no way are we discussion if "we" need AWD or not. Your personal needs and desires are your own always and if you personally need AWD to make you feel better, then by all means you should get it.


----------



## Tesla2ElectricBoogaloo

Spinball said:


> I don't think that's obvious or true. Traction control works on all 4 wheels on FWD/RWD cars too as it's generally controlled via the ABS system so which wheels are driven is irrelevant.
> 
> TC is generally about _slowing _the slipping wheel, not speeding it up.


I think it's important to distinguish between ESC and TC.

Electronic Stability Control uses the ABS to correct skids on all 4 wheels, whether it is a 2WD or 4/AWD configuration.

TRACTION Control is the limiting of/boosting of power to the 2 or 4 drive wheels.

Two different technologies that are generally lumped together, but actually do different things.


----------



## garsh

Tesla2ElectricBoogaloo said:


> TRACTION Control is the limiting of/boosting of power to the 2 or 4 drive wheels.


TC is most often implemented by applying the brake to the one wheel that's spinning. With an open differential, this will send all the power to the other wheel on that axle, so sometimes engine power is also reduced to prevent both wheels from slipping.


----------



## Tesla2ElectricBoogaloo

garsh said:


> TC is most often implemented by applying the brake to the one wheel that's spinning. With an open differential, this will send all the power to the other wheel on that axle, so sometimes engine power is also reduced to prevent both wheels from slipping.


Correct. But TRACTION control can only be applied to drive wheels. ESC uses the ABS to limit slipping/spins on all wheels, regardless of drivetrain configuration.

I know how they work, I was pointing out that they're 2 different things.

For instance, in a RWD Tesla, the car will do nothing to the front wheels for traction control, because they aren't drive wheels.

However, if you go into a slide, ESC will apply the ABS to all 4 wheels accordingly in order to keep the vehicle straight.


----------



## Spinball

Tesla2ElectricBoogaloo said:


> Electronic Stability Control uses the ABS to correct skids on all 4 wheels, whether it is a 2WD or 4/AWD configuration.
> 
> TRACTION Control is the limiting of/boosting of power to the 2 or 4 drive wheels


Good point and I agree these are different. I'm lumping in ESC (can you even buy a car today with one but not the other?). I was responding to your comment that AWD helps TC so it is not always about acceleration. I think it's fair to say that TC comes on under acceleration in the vast majority of cases.

I'd guess you probably have a good handle on this, I'm just being pedantic for those reading this thread and considering whether they "need" AWD. I've had this conversation so many times IRL that it's clear to me many have bought into AWD marketing claims hook, line, and sinker and have this magical idea that it somehow helps them stop, turn, etc when it really (99%) just helps accelerate. And it's a great tool for that, but thinking it in any way helps you stop is, in my opinion, dangerously misleading.


----------



## Tesla2ElectricBoogaloo

Spinball said:


> Good point and I agree these are different. I'm lumping in ESC (can you even buy a car today with one but not the other?). I was responding to your comment that AWD helps TC so it is not always about acceleration. I think it's fair to say that TC comes on under acceleration in the vast majority of cases.
> 
> I'd guess you probably have a good handle on this, I'm just being pedantic for those reading this thread and considering whether they "need" AWD. I've had this conversation so many times IRL that it's clear to me many have bought into AWD marketing claims hook, line, and sinker and have this magical idea that it somehow helps them stop, turn, etc when it really (99%) just helps accelerate. And it's a great tool for that, but thinking it in any way helps you stop is, in my opinion, dangerously misleading.


For me in this upcoming winter.....I haven't decided if I'm just going to ride with the 18's that come with the car, or if I'm going to go out and get some "beater" rims w/Blizzaks or something similar.

I have a pretty liberal work-from-home policy, so I suspect I'll be just fine with the Continentals.


----------



## Kennethbokor

garsh said:


> We've had several posts on M3OC where people are worried about getting a rear-wheel drive First Production Model 3, because they wanted all-wheel drive for when it snows. The problem is that everybody has preconceived notions about rear-wheel drive vehicles being bad in the snow, while front-wheel drive and all-wheel drive are better.
> 
> Those preconceived notions do not apply to electric cars!
> 
> Why do rear-wheel drive cars perform poorly in snow? It's because the engine is in front, while the drive wheels are in back. There's little weight over the drive wheels. That makes the wheels more prone to slip. Here are two articles that provide more detail:
> Autotrader: Why Doesn't Rear-Wheel Drive Work in the Snow?
> cars.com: How To Survive Winter With Rear-Wheel Drive
> 
> The main difference is that an electric car does NOT have the weight of an engine up front. Instead, it has a big empty frunk (in the case of a Tesla). The majority of the weight is in the battery, which sits on the floor between the front & rear wheels. If you look at the Tesla Press Kit, over 50% of the Model 3's weight is carried by the rear wheels. So the driving wheels have plenty of weight to help keep them from spinning.
> 
> In fact, because of this even distribution of weight, a rear-wheel drive electric car is just as good - if not better - in the snow as a front-wheel drive electric car! A front-wheel drive combustion vehicle has almost all of its weight over the driven wheels, which makes them very good in the snow. But a front-wheel drive electric car has only about half of its weight over the driven wheels. It may be hard to overcome those past prejudices, but a Bolt or Leaf will probably actually be worse in the snow that a rear-wheel drive Model 3.
> 
> Quora has put together a decent list of videos describing how well the original rear-wheel drive Model S cars dealt with the snow.
> Quora: How well do Tesla cars drive in ice and snow?
> 
> Watch some of those. If you've found front-wheel drive vehicles to be good-enough in the snow for your situations in the past, then consider that a rear-wheel drive Tesla (which weighs a lot more) will probably work just as well in the snow.


Thanks for this excellent post, really helps with my decision to stick with RWD M3!


----------



## SSonnentag

Being a desert rat, my interest in AWD comes down to four basic advantages, the last two of which may not pan out.

More even tire wear
Quicker acceleration on rough or slippery surfaces (stoplight racing on rough or deteriorating roads). Yeah, it's immature, but hey, a guy has to have a bit of fun. 
A bit more highway range (10-20 miles?)
Quicker acceleration period, due to more torque.
So if 3 and 4 don't materialize, it will be an easy decision to go with the RWD version and get the car sooner, 8 months sooner in my case.
If 3 and 4 turn out to be rather significant, say 20 miles more range and 0.5-1 second quicker 0-60 mph, that 8-month additional wait may become "necessary."


----------



## Spinball

Tesla2ElectricBoogaloo said:


> For me in this upcoming winter.....I haven't decided if I'm just going to ride with the 18's that come with the car, or if I'm going to go out and get some "beater" rims w/Blizzaks or something similar.
> 
> I have a pretty liberal work-from-home policy, so I suspect I'll be just fine with the Continentals.


Yeah I'm in exactly the same boat. I will get winter tires eventually, just not sure if I will the first year. I guess it depends how well or not the all seasons handle that first snow!


----------



## Bokonon

SSonnentag said:


> Being a desert rat, my interest in AWD comes down to four basic advantages, the last two of which may not pan out.
> 
> More even tire wear
> Quicker acceleration on rough or slippery surfaces (stoplight racing on rough or deteriorating roads). Yeah, it's immature, but hey, a guy has to have a bit of fun.
> A bit more highway range (10-20 miles?)
> Quicker acceleration period, due to more torque.
> So if 3 and 4 don't materialize, it will be an easy decision to go with the RWD version and get the car sooner, 8 months sooner in my case.
> If 3 and 4 turn out to be rather significant, say 20 miles more range and 0.5-1 second quicker 0-60 mph, that 8-month additional wait may become "necessary."


Not sure why it took me a month to find this thread, but this post pretty much sums up my thinking at this point... including bullet #2.  For now, we're just in a holding pattern, waiting to find out what the AWD version will bring to the table. In addition to the points above, we'll also have to see whether/how Tesla bundles AWD with other features initially (e.g., SAS), since that may affect pricing as well.

One other benefit (consolation prize?) of going with RWD for me (living in an area where Winter is Coming) is that it also solves my agonizing 18"-wheels-vs-19s dilemma, much as @Tesla2ElectricBoogaloo described above. Winter + RWD --> need snow tires --> get snows mounted on OEM 18s with aero covers to keep the snow out --> need a second set of wheels --> I GET TO CHOOSE WHEELS THAT I LIKE!!! --> AND THE DIFFERENCE IN FEDERAL TAX CREDIT WILL PAY FOR THEM!!!

At any rate, I'm hoping that we'll get some official AWD specs/bundling details before the end of Q1, so that the decision between AWD and RWD doesn't have to come down to the wire. (Knowing Tesla, though, we probably won't find out under just before it launches...) My current estimation (based on the position of Jupiter in Virgo) is that anyone who wants RWD and the full tax credit will need to order by mid-May to ensure that the car is delivered and "put into service" by the end of June... so if mid-May rolls around and the benefits of AWD aren't fully apparent or impressive, then I'll just pull the trigger on RWD and be completely fine with it.


----------



## Tesla2ElectricBoogaloo

Bokonon said:


> Not sure why it took me a month to find this thread, but this post pretty much sums up my thinking at this point... including bullet #2.  For now, we're just in a holding pattern, waiting to find out what the AWD version will bring to the table. In addition to the points above, we'll also have to see whether/how Tesla bundles AWD with other features initially (e.g., SAS), since that may affect pricing as well.
> 
> One other benefit (consolation prize?) of going with RWD for me (living in an area where Winter is Coming) is that it also solves my agonizing 18"-wheels-vs-19s dilemma, much as @Tesla2ElectricBoogaloo described above. Winter + RWD --> need snow tires --> get snows mounted on OEM 18s with aero covers to keep the snow out --> need a second set of wheels --> I GET TO CHOOSE WHEELS THAT I LIKE!!! --> AND THE DIFFERENCE IN FEDERAL TAX CREDIT WILL PAY FOR THEM!!!
> 
> At any rate, I'm hoping that we'll get some official AWD specs/bundling details before the end of Q1, so that the decision between AWD and RWD doesn't have to come down to the wire. (Knowing Tesla, though, we probably won't find out under just before it launches...) My current estimation (based on the position of Jupiter in Virgo) is that anyone who wants RWD and the full tax credit will need to order by mid-May to ensure that the car is delivered and "put into service" by the end of June... so if mid-May rolls around and the benefits of AWD aren't fully apparent or impressive, then I'll just pull the trigger on RWD and be completely fine with it.


I have some nice BBS 19's w/Dunlop Direzza's already mounted set aside for summer use on my current car, that MAY be a fit on the Model 3....

If the wheels don't fit, I'd still be tempted to have the tires mounted on a different set of wheels. Still a lot we don't know though... wish Tire Rack had our info online......


----------



## garsh

Bokonon said:


> get snows mounted on OEM 18s with aero covers to keep the snow out --> need a second set of wheels --> I GET TO CHOOSE WHEELS THAT I LIKE!!!


I'm thinking along those lines as well. I'll have a lot of fun prematurely wearing out the OEM tires, then replace them with winter tires and get a second set of wheels & tires for summer.


----------



## Bokonon

Tesla2ElectricBoogaloo said:


> I have some nice BBS 19's w/Dunlop Direzza's already mounted set aside for summer use on my current car, that MAY be a fit on the Model 3....
> 
> If the wheels don't fit, I'd still be tempted to have the tires mounted on a different set of wheels. Still a lot we don't know though... wish Tire Rack had our info online......


Agreed. TireRack is yet another site that has become part of my daily hit-F5-on-everything-Model-3-related routine. Hoping that the aftermarket will show up in force by the time the calendar turns and production goes full-throttle. And by "aftermarket" I mean the non-performance-oriented segment that isn't going to charge $6K for a set of wheels.

At any rate, I'll be curious to hear what you setup end up going with this winter, how well the car drives, and whether/where you find a good set of summer rims... the privilege of being an early adopter!


----------



## Tesla2ElectricBoogaloo

Bokonon said:


> Agreed. TireRack is yet another site that has become part of my daily hit-F5-on-everything-Model-3-related routine. Hoping that the aftermarket will show up in force by the time the calendar turns and production goes full-throttle. And by "aftermarket" I mean the non-performance-oriented segment that isn't going to charge $6K for a set of wheels.
> 
> At any rate, I'll be curious to hear what you setup end up going with this winter, how well the car drives, and whether/where you find a good set of summer rims... the privilege of being an early adopter!


By summertime, I'll be curious to know which is the more crucial consideration for wheels:

weight, or aerodynamics?

I do know that the 19's I have weigh 30lbs/ea. But I don't have much frame of reference. Is that going to be better or worse than the 18s? (I'll presume worse, because there's just more material needed for the larger wheel size. But how do those 19s compare to say, a Tesla set?

(this is the downside of being an early adopter: no one can answer your questions yet)


----------



## Bokonon

Tesla2ElectricBoogaloo said:


> By summertime, I'll be curious to know which is the more crucial consideration for wheels: weight, or aerodynamics?
> 
> I do know that the 19's I have weigh 30lbs/ea. But I don't have much frame of reference. Is that going to be better or worse than the 18s? (I'll presume worse, because there's just more material needed for the larger wheel size. But how do those 19s compare to say, a Tesla set?


I've been looking into that question as well. I am guessing that weight matters more for city driving, with all the starting and stopping, but for highway cruising (where range matters more) the answer is less clear to me for the actual differences in weight / drag under consideration.

As for how your 19s compare... According to TSportline, the Model S 19s are in the 29-pound range (29.5 lbs for the originals, 29 for the slipstreams, and 29.8 for the cyclones), so your 19s are inline with them. TSportline also speculates that the Model 3 19s are about 29.5 lbs, which seems like a reasonable estimate. (They estimate the aero wheels at 27.5 lbs, FWIW.)

I like the look of the Rial Lugano 19s, but they are a little bit on the heavier side at 32 lbs each. (If they made them in 18, I imagine they'd weigh somewhere around 30.... but I'd still get them nonetheless.)



> (this is the downside of being an early adopter: no one can answer your questions yet)


"Hmmm... should I attempt to ford the river, or caulk the wagon and float across?"


----------



## JWardell

For those still on the fence about AWD/RWD and snow: Can you hold off ordering till March?
I should be getting my RWD 3 right in the middle of snow season in Jan or Feb, and keeping it on stock wheels and tires the first year. I will definitely put it to the test and report in detail how it handles snow and ice.


----------



## TesLou

garsh said:


> I'm thinking along those lines as well. I'll have a lot of fun prematurely wearing out the OEM tires, then replace them with winter tires and get a second set of wheels & tires for summer.


Garsh: I drive to Pittsburgh for work a couple of times a month from my home in Louisville. I'll be doing that in my 3 when it arrives. You mentioned those all-too-familiar hills of Pittsburgh in an earlier post within this thread. I'm sure you'll be getting your car before me so I'm looking forward to hearing how it handles the hilly conditions there; especially in the foul weather.


----------



## M3OC Rules

I'm thinking of getting one of each so if you can just wait about a year and a half I'll let you know.

I was on the fence about waiting for the AWD but a $1200 brake job was a good reminder my car is 11.5 years old. First set of rear brakes lasted 100,000 miles. Second set 40,000. I brought up that it was strange there was so much difference but they assured me they cleaned everything up. They were sticking on the way home from the shop. So they replaced the pads again and the calipers this time. Time to start working on my charging solution and praying for an end to production hell.


----------



## Thomas Mikl

Please please please guys for your safety: If you get AWD, still get winter tries if you live in snowy conditions!
It is winter tires that will save your life when you need to brake or turn a slippery corner, not AWD!


----------



## dbemis

Agreed with what others have said - get snow tires and problem solved! I had a 2013 Mustang GT, my first RWD car, and my first car with snow tires. I could drive around in stuff safely and easily that others were sliding off the road in, or just flat out stuck spinning tires in. I live in Michigan, so, we see plenty of snow 

This is worst case condition, but it shows how big of a difference snow tires make: 




That being said, I plan on getting AWD still (and snow tires). It will be my first AWD car


----------



## NRG4All

JWardell said:


> In the good old days, we used to throw sand bags in the back to add weight over the rear drive wheels. We also used magical things called snow tires!
> 
> My RWD BMW was an absolute beast in the snow, I had no problem cutting through 18 inches. And tons of fun if you wanted to have it.
> 
> Remember, AWD is NOT any safer in the snow. You have the same number of wheels braking and turning. It instills false confidence that can be dangerous. The real only advantage is getting moving when stuck, after you already buried yourself in a ditch.


Good point, AWD may be better for acceleration in the snow, but it won't be any better on the deceleration side.


----------



## DrSheldor

Morning everyone, 

I just wanted to see if anybody else is torturing themselves trying to decide on whether its worth losing half the tax credit plus playing for AWD with their Model 3 reservation. 

I will be moving somewhere where everyone says having AWD is important, but at the same time it ends up being like an $8000 option due to the tax credit phase out, which makes this a difficult choice. 

Is anyone else who lives where it snows going to forego AWD this time?


----------



## pjfw8

DrSheldor said:


> Morning everyone,
> 
> I just wanted to see if anybody else is torturing themselves trying to decide on whether its worth losing half the tax credit plus playing for AWD with their Model 3 reservation.
> 
> I will be moving somewhere where everyone says having AWD is important, but at the same time it ends up being like an $8000 option due to the tax credit phase out, which makes this a difficult choice.
> 
> Is anyone else who lives where it snows going to forego AWD this time?


I travel the upper midwest each winter and lived there for 60 years. Winter tires are far more important than AWD. They are usually adequate. You will be impressed with the enhanced traction. Having said that, I like AWD for winter and summer handling, rain and snow traction and its better ability to get you back on the road it you get stuck. 4 driven wheels simply up the odds that at least one will have traction. AWD is nice but not absolutely needed. (If you are the kind of Doc who routinely drives to the hospital in the middle of the night go for AWD or follow the snowplow!)


----------



## garsh

DrSheldor said:


> Is anyone else who lives where it snows going to forego AWD this time?


I've never owned an AWD or 4WD vehicle. And that includes the two trucks I've owned.


----------



## mdfraz

I grew up and started driving in Iowa, and I've lived in Kansas for 20+ years. I've never had an AWD or 4WD vehicle. I don't routinely go plowing through snow drifts; as long as you don't have to do that, I don't see a need for AWD/4WD.


----------



## Bokonon

DrSheldor said:


> Morning everyone,
> 
> I just wanted to see if anybody else is torturing themselves trying to decide on whether its worth losing half the tax credit plus playing for AWD with their Model 3 reservation.
> 
> I will be moving somewhere where everyone says having AWD is important, but at the same time it ends up being like an $8000 option due to the tax credit phase out, which makes this a difficult choice.
> 
> Is anyone else who lives where it snows going to forego AWD this time?


Welcome to the forum! I live in the Boston area, and I'm currently pondering AWD vs. RWD through the same lens (i.e. AWD as potentially being an $8000-$9000 option).

At the moment, I'm split about 50-50 right now between those two, but I expect that I'll be ready to make a decision by the end of Q1 2018. By then, we should know (a) whether Tesla has hit the 200K delivery threshold that triggers the tax-credit phaseout, and (b) whether AWD production is imminent, and if so, its specs, packaging (e.g. with SAS included), and (one can only hope!) pricing. Those details (or lack thereof) should give me the information I need to make a decision at that time.

From what I've read (and from some limited personal experience with my parents' Model S), the general consensus among RWD Model S drivers is that Tesla's traction control system does a pretty good job handling slippery roads, and the car's weight distribution and low center-of-gravity generally allow it to handle better than a comparable RWD ICE car. (In fact, when I most recently spoke to the manager at my local Tesla Service Center, he told me that most RWD Model 3 owners that he knew ran all-season tires year-round.) That said, my parents did encounter a couple of instances where their RWD Model S started lurching sideways when they tried to pull away from a stop sign on an unplowed, uphill road, so if I do go with RWD, I will be running winter tires during the colder months.

From my perspective, choosing a first-production configuration with RWD has some nice fringe benefits:

It frees up $3750 + ~$5000 in my budget that I can redirect into other options (e.g. EAP), spend on accessories and aftermarket equipment, or simply keep in the bank.
It gives me an excellent excuse to buy a second, nicer set of wheels/tires for summer driving, and mount winter tires on the stock 18" wheels, thereby solving that other problem that I've been agonizing over for months ("which wheels should I order?")
I get my car sooner. D)
On the other hand, AWD carries the following fringe benefit (in addition to the presumed slight uptick in acceleration and highway efficiency) that I cannot readily dismiss:

Wife feels more comfortable driving an AWD car, no matter now many times I mention the following equation, frequently recited on various Tesla forums:
AWD + winter tires > RWD + winter wires >> AWD + all-season tires > RWD + all-season tires
YMMV, of course, depending on where you're moving to. If there are any RWD Model S owners in the vicinity of your future home, I'd ask them about their experiences with winter driving, whether they run snow tires, etc... that should give you a pretty good idea of what to expect from a RWD Model 3 in that same area.


----------



## Guest

dbemis said:


> get snow tires


Winter, these are winter tires. Snow tires are not offered any more. 
Winter tires are good on ice, compacted snow, slush and any road surface that is cold (even dry pavement).

The need for AWD as a safety feature is an illusion. 
When having normal commutes in bad winter conditions, acceleration has nothing to do with safety.

My recommendation to every driver in the world: if you can't exit your 2% inclined driveway or start moving at the intersection
because you have FWD or RWD, go home!
If you have a problem with "get going" at <2mph, how the F**K are you going to "stop going" at 20mph? You have wrong tires fitted!

Let's be honest, this looks ridiculous:





Not a single situation would be saved by AWD. And no, you can't accelerate your way out of trouble.
As soon as vehicle detects incorrect driving direction, power will be killed and Electronic Stability Control module will try to adjust the nose direction.
Driver can only steer and if requested, slow down by applying brake pedal. Can NOT accelerate to fix the situation.

And yes you can drive through 5.5" deep snow with just 2 wheels being driven.
I've pushed snow with front bumper for ages on winter tires. RWD BMW 5-series.
All you need is winter tires with some tread left (3-4mm is the legal limit).

If you want to enjoy acceleration on good road surfaces, then you need AWD.
If you want to enjoy acceleration in winter, get expensive studdless winter tires and AWD.


----------



## KarenRei

I watched a good number of those, and on the ones you can clearly see the cause and the cause isn't "tried to brake on ice", a large majority would have been prevented by AWD, all else being equal. You see the non-drive wheels get out of alignment with the drive wheels, and then it's all over. AWD not about saving you when you start to spin, it's about _preventing you from getting in that situation to begin with_ by doubling the number of potential grip patches to which force is being applied.

And yes, even at a steady state there's still significant force; even in an efficient (low power demand) vehicle like the Model 3 you've got something like 150N normal to the surface (aka, the force trying to slip) per tire cruising at ~65mph with AWD. That's the same force as you'd feel holding a 15kg / 33lb weight - that much force trying to slip on each tire. A heavier, less efficient vehicle, or higher speeds? It can be a lot more. Cut it down to 2WD? Double the normal force per tire, in addition to having fewer opportunities for good grip on the grip patches.

You don't know what you're talking about. Drive a car that can switch between AWD and RWD, *like I do*, and routinely switch, *like I do*. Then come back here and talk about what AWD is and isn't good for. The difference between the two is night and day. Don't lecture about a powertrain that you don't have regular experience with


----------



## KarenRei

Or if you'd rather, take it from our very own kman:






"... my old 60 kWh car for 80000 miles and 2 1/2 years.And it did phenominally in the snow. The same tires. And it was a rear-wheel drive vehicle. And this is going to be my first year in winter with a 90D. And even though the 60 did phenominal in the snow,* the difference between that and this vehicle are a night and day* ... Just having the 4-wheel drive just seems to be... I mean, this thing is practically glued to the road for normal driving."

It gets amusing when he tells the car to emulate a RWD-only vehicle.  The dashcam view starts swinging all over the place as the car has so much more trouble holding itself inline.


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## Guest

KarenRei said:


> AWD not about saving you when you start to spin, it's about _preventing you from getting in that situation to begin with_ by doubling the number of potential grip patches to which force is being applied.


Maybe your vehicle doesn't have Electronic Stability Protocol? Maybe you have not driven with US type all-season tires (southern EU also uses those, Italy for example).

Who cares about "getting in the situation"? It's about not crashing. It's not about seeing ESC yellow light blinking few times (loss of grip detection). Hypothetically (same curve, same vehicle, all same): 
all-season tires RWD vehicle will lose grip on rear wheels at 30mph, 
all-season tires AWD vehicle will lose grip on rear wheels at 35mph, 
winter tires RWD 70mph, 
winter tires AWD 75mph. 
all-season tires RWD vehicle will lose grip at 38mph when coasting
all-season tires AWD vehicle will lose grip at 38mph when coasting
winter tires RWD 80mph when coasting
winter tires AWD 80mph when coasting
stopping distance, AWD-RWD = ~0% difference. winter vs all-season= 50% worse

Grip loss will happen in all scenarios ANYWAY (the better grip you have, the faster you drive, that's how people react to traction in bad weather). Now *when first second is over*, RWD vehicle with all-season tires will act as bad as AWD vehicle with all-season tires fitted.
Extremely bad lateral traction. Hypothetically only at speeds below 30mph there is a chance to get back.
RWD vehicle with winter tires will give the same results as AWD vehicle with winter tires fitted.
Hypothetically only at speeds below 70mph there is a chance to get back.

Point is that average driver would be driving faster with AWD vehicle (whatever tires fitted) compared to RWD. And therefore, whatever tires fitted, AWD vehicle is more likely to not handle the situation due to higher speed when "getting in the situation".
Like I said, as soon as these vehicles detect slip, it doesn't take a second for computer to act. And first action is to remove that acceleration force to get the grip back. Yes, RWD will slip earlier if driven at considerable acceleration or high speed. AWD will result in more "glue" to the road to speed up. But not to corner faster.
There is nothing wrong in NOT cornering at constant speed. AWD will add performance and allow higher speed while cornering.
But with wrong tires, that higher speed is far from anything meaningful.
Also, in terms of money, 9000$ for 10% extra in few scenarios compared to second set of winter tires which cost a tenth of that and give you 50% better results in all scenarios. Yes it is that bad.

Actual problem is the fact that people consider AWD as substitute (compensation) to correct tires.
It's not. In many scenarios AWD has no effect. That video - same story. You can't know that 30-35mph AWD advantage would have saved anyone on that video. And pretty much everybody went faster than 38mph (limit for traction at no acceleration/deceleration).

AND LASTLY, to add a cherry on a cake, AWD Tesla's usually use only one motor when cruising. When slip detected, other motor engages. Note that slip already happened. Your "prevention" did not happen.



KarenRei said:


> You don't know what you're talking about.


Yea, you have told that before. Interesting.. why?


----------



## Thomas Mikl

KarenRei said:


> I watched a good number of those, and on the ones you can clearly see the cause and the cause isn't "tried to brake on ice", a large majority would have been prevented by AWD, all else being equal. You see the non-drive wheels get out of alignment with the drive wheels, and then it's all over. AWD not about saving you when you start to spin, it's about _preventing you from getting in that situation to begin with_ by doubling the number of potential grip patches to which force is being applied.
> 
> And yes, even at a steady state there's still significant force; even in an efficient (low power demand) vehicle like the Model 3 you've got something like 150N normal to the surface (aka, the force trying to slip) per tire cruising at ~65mph with AWD. That's the same force as you'd feel holding a 15kg / 33lb weight - that much force trying to slip on each tire. A heavier, less efficient vehicle, or higher speeds? It can be a lot more. Cut it down to 2WD? Double the normal force per tire, in addition to having fewer opportunities for good grip on the grip patches.
> 
> You don't know what you're talking about. Drive a car that can switch between AWD and RWD, *like I do*, and routinely switch, *like I do*. Then come back here and talk about what AWD is and isn't good for. The difference between the two is night and day. Don't lecture about a powertrain that you don't have regular experience with


I am sorry that is simply untrue.
AWD does NOTHING to prevent you from slipping on ice or snow. In many cases AWD might even let you loose traction faster.
The out of alignment you see in the video is due to poor or no traction control in the first place and the driver spinning the wheels to hard.
And yes I do know the drivetrain options. I have an i3 (RWD) a Sportage GTLine (AWD) and my brothers BMW 5 (RWD) and his wifes X1 (AWD).
And yes I live in the mountains of Austria where we still have winters with a few meters of snow on the road (yes we actually do have roads that are a meter or more higher in winter or compressed snow and ice).
The only thing AWD does for you, it gets you going from a standstill easier if you suck at driving or maybe (and just maybe in some fluffy snow cases) help you get up a fluddy snow hill, that you should not drive up in the first place (get your snow shoes out).
*
AWD will not:*
Help you from slipping in a corner
Help you from spinning if car is spinning already
Help you get to standstill faster
Help you to control the car when breaking on ice or snow
Help you control the car when your tires loose grip.
Make your car magically have more grip than your 4 tires have in the first place

As a freelancer I have driven easily over a million kilometers or prolly even miles in various conditions with variying drivetrains and as a physicist I do understand physics and with 99.999% certainty I can say that the cases I needed AWD were cases where I a) should just have stopped and waited for the next day to drive on or b) I wanted to get home badly and I can remember about 4 of those instances over a 15 year period. So unless you live in northern Finnland, Alaska or maybe Iceland and have no road service, I recommend to get a snow mobile and not a Tesla for those conditions. I know when I am in North Finnland going to the ice-breaker harbour I leave my car behind and rent one every time. Going with any type of car there is plain stupid.


----------



## $ Trillion Musk

This might be a stupid question... 

So do you guys mean that once the car starts moving inertia takes over the forward movement of the car rather than the motor that spins the wheels, and why, in this case, the correct set of tires are more essential than AWD because they provide better control of lateral movement?


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## Thomas Mikl

Safe Daddy Driver said:


> This might be a stupid question...
> 
> So do you guys mean that once the car starts moving inertia takes over the forward movement of the car rather than the motor that spins the wheels, and why, in this case, the correct set of tires are more essential than AWD because they provide better control of lateral movement?


The problem is, not quite.
The physics concerning what grips you to the bavement or snow are rather complicated.
But in an ideal world if you start to loose grip (whatever the cause may be, water that cannot drain, ice, snow, gravel,...) the ideal condition to regain grip and not loose total control would be the tire rolling with as minimal influence on the downforce and grip components as possible. Hence if you are about to loose it, pushing the gas pedal is usually not the way to go (unless you are a drift god), but breaking is also as bad. However leaving it roll is also not that good as inertia has more force on you, ideally you would give just enough on the accelerator to negate all forces and keeping you at speed. So in this ideal actually AWD could do a very tiny bit for you, however real world is not ideal and even a supercomputer and much less a traction control can calculate this to the best. All it can do is try to slow the tire down but usually that means to much breaking force.
So in the real world the best solution is to roll it and let Tesla's ESP try to slow you down slightly. For this you do not need AWD, especially when cornering. There is a reason why ice track racing is done with RWD. It is much easier to counter steer if you controlled loose grip in the back and can still steer with the front wheels rolling. This is also why Ralley cars can deactivate AWD on gravel and ice (or switch to 20/80 front/back).
That is where you tyres come in.
A tyre is an elastic or deformable body. It delivers forces to the car by stretching, compressing, and twisting. It is thus a very complex sort of spring with several different ways, or modes, of deformation. The hypothetical tyre implied by F







µW with constant µ would be a non-elastic tyre. Anyone who has driven hard tyres on ice knows that non-elastic tyres are basically uncontrollable, not just because µ is small but because regular tyres on ice do not twist appreciably.
The first and most obvious mode of deformation is radial. This deformation is along the radius of the tyre, the line from the centre to the tread. It is easily visible as a bulge in the sidewall near the contact patch, where the tyre touches the ground. Thus, radial compression varies around the circumference.
Second is circumferential deformation. This is most easily visible as wrinkling of the sidewalls of drag tyres. These tyres are intentionally set up to deform dramatically in the circumferential direction.
Third is axial deformation. This is a deflection that tends to pull the tyre off the (non-elastic) wheel or rim.
Last, and most important for cornering, is torsional deformation. This is a difference in axial deflection from the front to the back of the contact patch. Fundamentally, radial, circumferential, and axial deformation furnish a complete description of a tyre. But it is very useful to consider the differences in these deflections around the circumference.
You can get a good intuition into the physics with a pencil eraser. Get a block eraser, of the rectangular kind like "Pink Pearl" or "Magic Rub." Stand it up on a table or desk and think of it as a little segment of the circumference of a tyre. Think of the part touching the desk as the contact patch. Grab the top of the eraser and think of your hand as the wheel or rim, which is going to push, pull, and twist on the segment of tyre circumference.
Now a winter tyre is not only softer rubber it has a grip surface that has its total own physics to it.

But even that is only part of the physics as also spings, tension on the road, weight of the car, downforce by aerodynamics etc. all play a role.
So the key factors in making you corner safely in winter on a snow road are:
Grip of the tyre
Wheel dimensions vs grip angle of the tyre
Suspension being able to keep your tyre in contact with the road, without too much pressure to overload the surface grip of the tyre.
Springs able to control the whole thing without bouncing it off.
A good stability control computer that does not induce too much breaking forces.
You wheels being able to control sidewall offset of the tyres.
Aerodynamic pressure of the car.
Sideways forces of the car being as low to the ground as possible (love Tesla in this one) as to induce less rolling force of outside wheels.
And these are just some that come to mind.

Actually a good air suspension prolly does A LOT more than AWD for your cornering safety, especially in a low center of gravity car as the Tesla.


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## $ Trillion Musk

Cool! We’re not even emphasizing a Tesla’s low center of gravity and weight distribution here... a real game changer when doing apples to apples RWD comparison of EV vs ICEV IMO. 

And unlike ICEV, I’ve read somewhere that EV traction control response is instantaneous due to less moving parts.

This solidifies my decision to forgo AWD for now in order to assure better tax incentive. Thanks for the great info.


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## Guest

I'm not sure about that air suspension. How much advantages does it offer for those vertical oscillations on slippery road?
My 5-series has regular suspension in the front and air suspension in the back. Can't say they are different in any conditions
(except heavy cargo).

In case of electric vehicle traction control, computer shall also kill regeneration (this definitely happens with Leaf, would like to hear what Tesla does). Braking forces are only controlled by ESC system, not motor. And , if vehicle is moving in the same direction as steering wheel is turned to, there is no ESP adjustments happening (individual tire braking). Vehicle will just coast. Except if brake pedal is used.
I've been in situations where 20-30kW regen locks the front wheel for a moment, ABS sensor detects problem and instantly kills regen to 0.
After that, depending on situation, for some period, regen is more modest. There is also some blending action happening even in these complicated situations. Front wheels are braked by regen, rear wheels add friction brakes WITHOUT front friction brakes. Though this blending happens only in modest braking and is gone as soon as ABS adjustment starts.


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## $ Trillion Musk

Another dumb question from someone who is too lazy and frugal to get a 2nd set of tires...

What are your thoughts on using all season tires for winter season on a RWD Tesla? How much riskier would it be vs using winter tires? 

Please try not to be too obvious with your answers (or shoot me LOL) as I’m sure a lot of folks out there, myself included, don’t switch their tires to the seasons.


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## skygraff

I'm gonna try the all seasons that come with it and, if I don't feel safe, switch to all weather for the next winter/year. If that doesn't do it, I'll try winter tires and then a used AWD w/all of the above options.

All seasons are presumably a minor step up from summers. All weathers have the snowflake emblem and, while still a compromise, should perform somewhat well for those of us who don't want to do seasonal swaps (or have drastic temp fluctuations in a single season). Swapping, so seems the consensus, will always be best even with AWD.


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## BobLoblaw

skygraff said:


> I'm gonna try the all seasons that come with it and, if I don't feel safe, switch to all weather for the next winter/year. If that doesn't do it, I'll try winter tires and then a used AWD w/all of the above options.
> 
> All seasons are presumably a minor step up from summers. All weathers have the snowflake emblem and, while still a compromise, should perform somewhat well for those of us who don't want to do seasonal swaps (or have drastic temp fluctuations in a single season). Swapping, so seems the consensus, will always be best even with AWD.


This is good advice. If you live somewhere with winter, and want to skip swapping rubber...all weather tires should be seen as a minimum. Where I live it's actually illegal to drive on most public highways in winter without the "snowflake". I have driven all-weather tires year round (Nokian WRG3) in pretty severe conditions and they do surprisingly well. I would put them on par with a cheap set of winters in the nasty stuff, still no comparison to premium winters. If you live somewhere that you'll be experiencing severe winter conditions, I think budgeting for a good set of winter tires is the right thing to do. It really does make a noticeable difference.


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## Guest

Safe Daddy Driver said:


> What are your thoughts on using all season tires for winter season on a RWD Tesla


It looks like you learned little. Your question should have been without those three letters "RWD" as they do not matter.* At all.*
In terms of safety, all-season tires offer near to nothing on ice and snow. Though they are better (than summer) in rain and slush.
"Winter season" - doesn't actually specify anything. Some regions have never felt sub-freezing (0C, 32F) temperatures. Some have those temps at summer.
It is easy to remember: below 7C 44F, summer tires have less grip than all-weather/winter tires (on average). Depending on all-season tire compound, that temperature limit might slightly move. Let's estimate 4C 39F. 
Anything above it, no need for all-weather/winter tires.
All-season tires are acceptable (safety) in above-freezing temperatures with no ice nor snow on road. But they are not acceptable on snow nor ice. Switch from acceptable to not acceptable happen with nothing inbetween (no mediocre, no weak, no inferior, no poor). Literally, switch might happen within one second. On dry sub-freezing pavement, let's call them "poor". Though still driveable. Ice can form at ambient temps below 3C 37,5F. I've witnessed black ice at 2.5C on summer tires. It was close call to vehicle being totaled

If climate does not have snow/ice though there are many weeks of near-freezing temps (below 7C 44F) it is still better to get the second set.
It's fine to use those tires at warmer than near-freezing temps. Though they wear faster.
Due to people being "lazy" (I believe I can handle xxx weather with all-season tires) many regions with annually expected slippery conditions require snowflake symbol. That symbol pretty much means tire never drops below acceptable in any temperature.

I made a simplified sketch that has no exact data, except some basic limit values.
Doesn't represent any specific tire brand/model. 
*Grip *can also be imagined as *braking distance.*
Look at the sketch and fit your "winter" here.
*







*


----------



## c2c

KarenRei Said:
You don't know what you're talking about.

Arnis Said:
Yea, you have told that before. Interesting.. why?"

I say:
Because it is true.

Thomas Mike Said:
"...AWD does nothing to prevent you from slipping on ice or snow." And later "...and as a physicist I do understand physics and i can say with 99.999% certainty..."

With regard to the tires on the roadway, "Static Friction" and "Kinetic Friction" are significant, as i was taught in my freshman physics class. In the situations under discussion, Static Friction (the non-skidding type) has a higher coefficient (bigger is better) than Kinetic Friction (the skidding type). That is why people are trained to steer into a skid, to reestablish Static Friction by making the front tires roll.

The next higher interface is the drivetrain. AWD has one advantage over RWD and FWD in that it helps start the skidding wheel to turn.

ABS will try to equalize the turning by independent braking, but it can't turn a stopped wheel.

You also copied some text from http://www.auto-ware.com/beckman/phors10.htm

Thomas, what you left out was "I am not a tyre engineer. As always, I try to give a fresh look at any topic from a physicist's point of view. I may write things that are heretical or even wrong, especially on such a difficult topic as tyre mechanics."

Remember, the biggest problem with driving on snow is the loose nut holding the steering wheel.


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## Guest

c2c said:


> The next higher interface is the drivetrain. AWD has one advantage over RWD and FWD in that it helps start the skidding wheel to turn.


This is not true. ICE vehicles are too slow for that. Non-driven wheel (no shaft) will spin up faster after stopping than anything connected to transmission. Also, there is no torque from modern drivetrain when slowing down.


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## $ Trillion Musk

@arnis thank you for the specifics on temperatures and an easy to read graph! Quite informative.


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## M3OC Rules

Safe Daddy Driver said:


> @arnis thank you for the specifics on temperatures and an easy to read graph! Quite informative.


Keep in mind he said:



arnis said:


> I made a simplified sketch that has no exact data, except some basic limit values.


This graph might make you think you could barely stay on the road in below 0 F conditions. After over 20 years in Minnesota winters without winter tires I can say that's not the case. If you live in Jersey I'm pretty sure you've got some experience in all season tires in the winter.

But winter tires do make a big difference if you haven't tried them. Maybe that's the point of the graph but I don't like that it looks like real data. It would be better if everyone in cold climates used them. Just get them.

In terms of AWD, again I'd go back to your own experience. How often do you have trouble getting going? How often are the roads you go on in rough shape? Or do you just want it?


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## KarenRei

Thomas Mikl: Look, you can take:

1) My, continual, repeated yearly experience driving a car that can switch between AWD and RWD (and in which I do so on average 2-3 times per day during the winter).

2) The kman video above of a Tesla being driven normally versus being told to emulate a RWD vehicle on a bad road (and watching how hard it is to hold straight in RWD when it's basically glued to the road in AWD), and his personal experience driving both, for years, in the same location, with the same tires

3) The very physics itself of applying half as much sliding force per drive wheel and having double the opportunities for a good grip patch against said sliding force. The physics now having been seconded by a physicist on this thread.

Or, you can continue to assert nonsense about things that you have no experience with. Either way!


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## Guest

DC Rules said:


> This graph might make you think you could barely stay on the road in below 0 F conditions.


What? Clearly not. Please look again. 0F is -17C.



KarenRei said:


> The kman video


Kman is having fun. His video has nothing to do with losing control at any reasonable travelling speed.
*He did technically crash. At 4:27 unexpected behaviour happened. Crash would happen at 4:35. *
He is just dancing for viewers. Damn he is keeping his front fogs on all the time. And not by mistake.
This is exactly what I warned others: AWD gives regular drivers a feeling that tires are fine for whatever roads.
Kman gives an impression, that this specific vehicle of his (with AWD) is excellent in bad conditions.
ABSOLUTELY NOT. Observe speed at 4:32-4:35. It's walking speed and vehicle does not handle situation.
And don't start at "he shouldn't have braked" Well this is exactly what people do. No matter what you think.
The fact is, his vehicle is not roadworthy. Even at 10mph. Reason: inappropriate tires fitted.
The fact it doesn't get stuck in 10cm snow is not enough.

EDIT:




We get back to question, is your vehicle dinosaur or not. Because we are talking about Teslas here.


----------



## KarenRei

arnis said:


> Look at the sketch and fit your "winter" here.
> *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *


This is one of the dumbest graphs I've seen in my life, conflating temperature with road conditions (aka 0-7°C is "WATER" while 7°C+ is "DRY" - I mean, WTH?) and totally made up numbers for plotting the "data". Do people have anything better to do than make things like this?


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## JWardell

KarenRei said:


> This is one of the dumbest graphs I've seen in my life, conflating temperature with road conditions (aka 0-7°C is "WATER" while 7°C+ is "DRY" - I mean, WTH?) and totally made up numbers for plotting the "data". Do people have anything better to do than make things like this?


It's almost comical. Apparently winter tires have _more_ traction on ice than they do on warm pavement!


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## Michael Russo

KarenRei said:


> This is one of the dumbest graphs I've seen in my life, conflating temperature with road conditions (aka 0-7°C is "WATER" while 7°C+ is "DRY" - I mean, WTH?) and totally made up numbers for plotting the "data". Do people have anything better to do than make things like this?


Karen, I hear you & agree with lack of correlation. Most of us have experienced wet road conditions above 7°C/45°F...

However, please remain _*civil*_ in your feedback even you disagree... 'dumbest graphs I've seen in my life' is not in line with the standards we like to hold ourselves to in this most friendly forum as you know... Many thanks!

I think Arnis' point with the X axis was mainly to show, again, how winter tires are particular effective and actually desirable up to that temperature. He probably should have written 'MOSTLY' dry above 7°C/45°F...


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## Guest

KarenRei said:


> This is one of the dumbest graphs I've seen in my life





JWardell said:


> It's almost comical.


This is exactly what I expected from these two.



Michael Russo said:


> 'MOSTLY' dry above 7°C/45°F


It would have made graph too complicated to understand as summer tires might not be better than all-season all-weather.
It all about driver expectation and how each type correlates to others. Road can be dry at any temperature but sketching that would skew results compared to average real life.
It would look like that:


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## Michael Russo

arnis said:


> This is exactly what I expected from these two. (...)


Arnis, by all means, we don't need _this_ either! 
I was trying to be objective so please learn to let.it.go...


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## Guest

For me, the most important is to have fun and help those who ask help.
It seems we have casualties within that process. Let's hope they find their helppenmouth:


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## Michael Russo

arnis said:


> For me, the most important is to have fun and help those who ask help.
> It seems we have casualties within that process. Let's hope they find their helppenmouth:


Well, clearly not everybody has the same definition of 'fun' and expectation as to how 'help' is provided...

In the name of the moderator team, our plea to you and all is to maintain a cordial, non derogatory tone at all times. I trust you are clever enough to handle that... 

We will not tolerate more deviations from this basic principle which is paramount to the spirit we wish to preserve on M3OC.


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## Idur

Based on what people have written before, I think hope this might provide some insight.

Most of my experience in driving in slippery conditions is with an agricultural tractor on a muddy field. I have some experience with a car at highway speeds, but they may not be as helpful for people who want to keep control of the car .

So the 4WD tractor I know has a switch to enable traction to the front wheels. The 2WD tractor has rear wheel drive only.
Obviously, the 4WD tractor doesn't get stuck as often when 4WD is engaged. But it also tends to go straight more. With a simple differential between the rear wheels, if only one wheel has traction, the tractor pulls to the left or right depending on what wheel has more traction. In corners, the tractor sometimes tends to go straight while I steer left or right because of this too.
4WD is solves this because it adds traction in the direction where I want to go.
When 4WD is not enough, or when using the 2WD tractor, agricultural tractors have an extra feature: separate brake pedals for the left and right wheel. So when I want to go left, I use the left brake. When I want to go right, I use the right brake.
Of course, all this is at low speeds because above 10 km/h the gears start to complain loudly because there's no differential between front and rear wheels and the back starts to push the front wheels because of different diameter, tire pressure,… The left and right brake pedal have to be coupled for safety at higher speeds.

From what I read in this thread, AWD cars use a differential or automatically disengage 4WD at higher speeds, turning them into 2WD cars. Modern 2WD and 4WD cars automatically use the left and right brake to help the car go where the driver wants it to go.

At low speeds, the AWD still helps. Which is great, because you're supposed to drive slow in slippery conditions.

When the weather is so bad that you need to drive 50 km/h or slower on the highway, I tend to stay where I am. It doesn't happen that often over here, less than once a year nowadays. If that's not doable for you, you may need AWD. Otherwise, you may benefit from AWD, but not that much.

I don't need AWD on my car.


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## Skione65

Michael Russo said:


> Well, clearly not everybody has the same definition of 'fun' and expectation as to how 'help' is provided...
> 
> In the name of the moderator team, our plea to you and all is to maintain a cordial, non derogatory tone at all times. I trust you are clever enough to handle that...
> 
> We will not tolerate more deviations from this basic principle which is paramount to the spirit we wish to preserve on M3OC.


@Michael Russo,

Thank You. I wasn't going to remark but I appreciate this. I stopped reading this and afew other threads for awhile. I don't want this site and to me 'family like' community to become like others that I have left because pettiness and vitriol have driven some conversations and cause one to have to 'weed through the chaff' to elicite 'pertinent and meaningful facts and data' to learn anything from the posts. When my blood pressure starts to rise and the stress of the outside world starts to encroach on a community like this one it disappoints me.
Please take Michael Russo's comments as well as mine to heart. Let's keep discussion here, as it is a learning experience and there is much knowledge from the forum members.....but please....let's keep it civil and fun...that way when we are seeking untainted knowledge, information and just fun relaxing 'downtime' from the disturbing occurrences and debates of the outside world this GREAT community forum will be one we ALL enjoy coming to.

Thank you Everyone!

Ski


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## Guest

Michael Russo said:


> our plea to you and all is to maintain a cordial, non derogatory tone at all times.


Smells like asylum's statute :housegarden::flushed:
Not sure how it ends though:smirk:

There are no free dishes. Everything has a price.

Though it is (in the name of everybody's safety) very important to understand and *ACCEPT *the fact that AWD does not (Tesla cars) help with safety on roads. Until this has not been unanimously accepted as common knowledge, my heart will not rest.
AWD helps with situations that do not require help to raise the safety on roads, because weakest link is what matters.

I like new perspective Idur introduced. I never connected these dots. I knew that tractors might have two brakes but never thought that it is exactly what ESP does on regular cars (plus two more brakes on front axle). This makes me wonder, why not ESP on tractors.



Idur said:


> When the weather is so bad that you need to drive 50 km/h or slower on the highway, I tend to stay where I am


This happens way too often each year here Winter arrives "all so sudden" and like every third vehicle has to drive that slow.
Again. Has nothing to do with missing AWD. Just missing winter tires.


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## FunkyJunk

KarenRei said:


> This is one of the dumbest graphs I've seen in my life, conflating temperature with road conditions (aka 0-7°C is "WATER" while 7°C+ is "DRY" - I mean, WTH?) and totally made up numbers for plotting the "data". Do people have anything better to do than make things like this?


That graph is even worse because it suggests that there is little to no difference between summer tires and all-seasons when it gets cold. This is flat out wrong. I owned a Cayman S until recently. I had sets of summer tires and all-seasons to use in winter. Summer tires are life-threatening in cold and snow, whereas all-seasons do "okay." That's a huge difference, not a sliver of difference as this graph erroneously suggests.


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## Michael Russo

arnis said:


> Smells like asylum's statute :housegarden::flushed:
> Not sure how it ends though:smirk:
> 
> There are no free dishes. Everything has a price.
> 
> Though it is (in the name of everybody's safety) very important to understand and *ACCEPT *the fact that AWD does not (Tesla cars) help with safety on roads. Until this has not been unanimously accepted as common knowledge, my heart will not rest.
> (...)Has nothing to do with missing AWD. Just missing winter tires.


@arnis, we got your point, loud & clear: in bad winter conditions, AWD is not near as important from a safety perspective than winter tires.

Hope _you got ours_...



FunkyJunk said:


> That graph is even worse because it suggests that there is little to no difference between summer tires and all-seasons when it gets cold. This is flat out wrong. (...)


Thanks, yet I feel we're going around in circles in this thread (on ice? ) so closing it.


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## $ Trillion Musk

RWD vs AWD on a Tesla Model 3 - which one do you find more enjoyable to drive and why?

As a former Audi owner I’ve been able to compare same-model Audis in RWD/FWD/AWD configurations and they were worlds apart in the way they handled. I assume the same applies to Tesla cars?

Can anyone who’s had the pleasure of trying both Model 3 configurations kindly share their opinions? It’s a matter of want, not need, and enjoyment, not safety for me.


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## PNWmisty

$ Trillion Musk said:


> RWD vs AWD on a Tesla Model 3 - which one do you find more enjoyable to drive and why?
> 
> As a former Audi owner I've been able to compare same-model Audis in RWD/FWD/AWD configurations and they were worlds apart in the way they handled. I assume the same applies to Tesla cars?
> 
> Can anyone who's had the pleasure of trying both Model 3 configurations kindly share their opinions? It's a matter of want, not need, and enjoyment, not safety for me.


We have a LR and a P3D Model 3. I've only driven the P3D for 500 miles but it handles very similarly to the LR. You really don't notice any difference in handling except under enough power or regen to cause the traction aids to start working. Even then the differences are primarily manifested in the P3D being able to do everything a bit faster. And if that's your thing, it's definitely more fun. It can accelerate harder both in a straight line and in corners. It can also regen a bit more in slippery corners and carry more corner speed under regen braking when it's slippery. But the LR is no slouch or dog when it gets slippery, it's just ultimately a little less capable of haulin' ass. It can still haul ass and feel very controllable and secure (thanks to well-tuned traction aids, nearly perfect fore/aft balance with centralized mass, easy and progressive control of accel/regen and low center of gravity), it's just not as ferocious as the P3D. The P3D is only more fun if you're gonna drive it like you stole it. Otherwise, you will barely notice the difference. The reason for this is the fore/aft weight balance is very good and very similar on both of them. Both are more fun than the proverbial barrel of monkeys.


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## $ Trillion Musk

PNWmisty said:


> I've only driven the P3D for 500 miles but it handles very similarly to the LR. You really don't notice any difference in handling except under enough power or regen to cause the traction aids to start working.


If they're very similar then might as well get the single motor. Thanks for the intel! Does anyone think single motor vs. dual motor feel totally different?


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## PNWmisty

$ Trillion Musk said:


> If they're very similar then might as well get the single motor. Thanks for the intel! Does anyone think single motor vs. dual motor feel totally different?


Correction: I said they are very similar _until under strong accel or regen. _Then they are quite different but both still very fun.


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## GeorgeP

This has been contested for a while, it all depends where the load of the car is. In the M3, the battery which is the heaviest load is distributed between the front and rear set of wheels so it's all good!
Check this out:


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## $ Trillion Musk

He mentions in this video that the AWD feels a little bit more sluggish on the corners while the RWD feels more nimble. Quite an interesting and informative review.


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## PNWmisty

$ Trillion Musk said:


> He mentions in this video that the AWD feels a little bit more sluggish on the corners while the RWD feels more nimble. Quite an interesting and informative review.


Both our Model 3's have the same tires and wheels inflated to the same pressure with both steering settings set to "standard". I disagree that the AWD feels more "sluggish" in the corners. Very, very similar unless you add a lot of throttle mid-corner. And then the RWD is the one that feels more sluggish because the Traction Control kicks in sooner. When making this type of comparison, it's very important to insure the same tire pressures, same tires and same steering settings. I suspect that was not the case with this test drive.


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## $ Trillion Musk

PNWmisty said:


> Both our Model 3's have the same tires and wheels inflated to the same pressure with both steering settings set to "standard". I disagree that the AWD feels more "sluggish" in the corners. Very, very similar unless you add a lot of throttle mid-corner. And then the RWD is the one that feels more sluggish because the Traction Control kicks in sooner. When making this type of comparison, it's very important to insure the same tire pressures, same tires and same steering settings. I suspect that was not the case with this test drive.


Great points. What about the nimbleness of the car? Does the dual motors' extra regen take away from that? Or can one interpret "lack of nimbleness" as feeling "more in control" because of more tire grip from the AWD?


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## tencate

$ Trillion Musk said:


> Does anyone think single motor vs. dual motor feel totally different?


I've driven both (dry pavement) and can't say I could feel any difference whatsoever. Now once we get some white stuff on the road, I may change my tune. (This will be my second winter with Max, the first was just 1/2 a winter and not that much snow, we'll see how he does with snow tires this time around.)


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## PNWmisty

$ Trillion Musk said:


> Great points. What about the nimbleness of the car? Does the dual motors' extra regen take away from that? Or can one interpret "lack of nimbleness" as feeling "more in control" because of more tire grip from the AWD?


Honestly, I can't tell any difference in the amount of regen available between the LR RWD and the P3D (and I switch back and forth between them quite often because I am the primary driver when my wife and I drive somewhere together). My car is "dog-free" so we always take her RWD. There is absolutely no adjustment switching back and forth and I don't notice that the P3D has more regen, even when I release the throttle suddenly. I suspect this might change on snow and ice but on dry pavement they feel the same. I think I'm a sensitive driver so it surprised me that I didn't notice the extra 225 lbs. of motor in the front of the P3D.


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## Erix

I'm getting my 3 on Monday! It's awd and I'm curious about people's experiences with regen in slick conditions.
Also does the car adjust regen based upon its detection of skiddy or slippy moments?


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## Guest

Erix said:


> I'm getting my 3 on Monday! It's awd and I'm curious about people's experiences with regen in slick conditions.
> Also does the car adjust regen based upon its detection of skiddy or slippy moments?


All modern EV's adjust regen according to slip. FWD EV's instantly remove all regen for best traction in case of slip and gradually enable again.
AWD EV can do more tricks if software is prepared for slippery conditions.


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## Mosess

Erix said:


> I'm getting my 3 on Monday! It's awd and I'm curious about people's experiences with regen in slick conditions.
> Also does the car adjust regen based upon its detection of skiddy or slippy moments?


My Model 3 is AWD. Here in Atlanta we've had non-stop rain for the last 5-6 days. Regen stopped very briefly when it detected some wheel slip going through areas with 1-2 inches of pooled water while the rain was coming down heavy and then re-engaged immediately when i got back on dry (Relatively speaking) pavement. The only time i experience reduced regen is when the battery pack itself is cold (driving home after it was parked outside in the cold rain all day while i'm at the office) and I see those little dots on the left of the power regen/draw line.


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## Erix

Good to know regen is actively mmanaged. I guess it's a rather obvious thing to auto control and that makes me think awd regen mght be used to advantage like some other cars that have hill descent control. Maybe the awd 3 already does that?? It would be cool to have a controlled descent while charging the batteries!


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## Mosess

Erix said:


> Good to know regen is actively mmanaged. I guess it's a rather obvious thing to auto control and that makes me think awd regen mght be used to advantage like some other cars that have hill descent control. Maybe the awd 3 already does that?? It would be cool to have a controlled descent while charging the batteries!


It definitely manages descents very well. I regularly coast downhills at or near highway speeds on regen and it'll keep me at 60-70mph on a 2-3 mile long descent where a ICE car would require riding the brakes or it will gain too much speed. If I let go of the pedal altogether, it would slow me down completely so most of my driving is with one pedal and I only tap the brakes for the auto-brake-hold to engage at a stop light.
I had a Model S P85+ as a loaner for a while while SC was repairing my mirror trims (common issue where they separate and cause wind noise) and the regen at low speed was ok, but at high speed it was nothing like my M3 AWD. You definitely need that motor up front to be able to do truly single pedal driving.


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## GTV6

First drive on ice/snow (including unplowed section of 8" with RWD on Nokian R3 snow tires. Terrific.


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## Guest

Now do it on all-seasons and tell they are "as good"


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## Nautilus

arnis said:


> Let's be honest, this looks ridiculous:


I think the key takeaway from this video is that in foul weather, one should stay well away from the Interstate 64 bridge in Charleston, West Virginia where it crosses the Kanawha River, since it clearly freezes before the rest of the road! Looks like about half the clips are from that cursed stretch of highway. While the clips all show west-bound traffic, I suspect the east-bound wasn't much better off.

After seeing the road sign showing a junction of three interstate highways, I just had to Google and figure out where this was .


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## PNWmisty

Nautilus said:


> I think the key takeaway from this video is that in foul weather, one should stay well away from the Interstate 64 bridge in Charleston, West Virginia where it crosses the Kanawha River, since it clearly freezes before the rest of the road!


That's funny because I had a completely different takeaway after watching the same video:

If you live in an area that might have icy roads, run winter tires. Because I saw a number of vehicles competently dodging the out of control mayhem. This is primarily a difference of tires. Some cars couldn't even maintain a nearly straight line in their lane. Other cars were able to drive around the out of control vehicle and stay in complete control. This was not primarily a difference of driver skill. Unless the ability to choose appropriate tires is classified as a "driver skill".


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## Guest

Those who prefer AWD instead of separate winter set:


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## Nautilus

PNWmisty said:


> That's funny because I had a completely different takeaway after watching the same video:
> 
> If you live in an area that might have icy roads, run winter tires. Because I saw a number of vehicles competently dodging the out of control mayhem. This is primarily a difference of tires. Some cars couldn't even maintain a nearly straight line in their lane. Other cars were able to drive around the out of control vehicle and stay in complete control. This was not primarily a difference of driver skill. Unless the ability to choose appropriate tires is classified as a "driver skill".


I think your absolutely right, and of course I was being somewhat facetious. I think the issues of winter tires, AWD, etc. in this thread have been adequately covered. The other obvious points are:
1) If you live in Minnesota, New England, Austria, Estonia, Iceland, Canada and anywhere else with severe winters, you'll be appropriately equipped and skilled to drive in snow.
2) For everyone else, if the weather is bad and you don't have to go out, don't.
3) If you do find yourself stuck out in bad weather, and you know what you're doing, and the car is properly equipped, the biggest problem will be THE OTHER PEOPLE on the road who are either poorly equipped or don't know what they're doing.

In this video (1:58 to 2:04) someone actually manages to save themselves despite spinning out, but not colliding with the guardrails, only to get t-boned (quite severely) by another car coming up behind them. That's why if I get caught at work during a severe storm, I'll take the city streets home rather than the interstate where you're at the mercy of everyone else in close proximity to you (and there's always some idiot going much faster than he should be).

This thread has also reaffirmed my decision to go with the RWD. I don't need insane acceleration.

(Grew up driving in the Boston suburbs, have driven through the Donner Pass during a bad snowstorm, spent a winter in Austria, now living in a place where really bad snow is only a one to two times per winter event).


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## JWardell

Snow tires and RWD make me LOVE driving in the snow! But what I don't love is the other traffic...as these videos show the best driver in the world can't avoid the idiot careening into them!

Two spectacular videos, @arnis ! Sad we haven't heard much from you in a while, hopefully you only have a few more months of waiting...


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## jiten87

I've ordered a RWD Model 3 based on the information on this thread (as well as efficiency numbers)

Please don't make me regret it.


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## Jay Jay

I'm going to do some more research after reading this thread. My common sense is still nagging at me that AWD, particularly in an EV with separate front and rear axle motors and advanced computing, should help you avoid getting into slide situations when stopping, turning and going straight. I'll try to prove myself wrong.


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## garsh

Jay Jay said:


> My common sense is still nagging at me that AWD, particularly in an EV with separate front and rear axle motors and advanced computing, should help you avoid getting into slide situations when stopping, turning and going straight.


The only thing that AWD is going to get you in an EV is a little more traction for accelerating. It's not going to do a single thing to help with stopping. Nor is it going to do much to help with turning. And with the incredibly quick traction control system that Tesla has developed, even the RWD version of the car will do a decent job of accelerating.


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## Mike

jiten87 said:


> I've ordered a RWD Model 3 based on the information on this thread (as well as efficiency numbers)
> 
> Please don't make me regret it.


Welcome aboard @jiten87, and no, you won't regret RWD.

I don't have enough data yet for long range, single day cruise numbers for winter temps.

But with your wits about you in summer, you'll have no problem exceeding the EPA range numbers.


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## jiten87

Mike said:


> Welcome aboard @jiten87, and no, you won't regret RWD.
> 
> I don't have enough data yet for long range, single day cruise numbers for winter temps.
> 
> But with your wits about you in summer, you'll have no problem exceeding the EPA range numbers.


Thank you! Do you have teslafi? What are your wh/mi numbers for the winter thus far?


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## Vin

First snow/sleet storm in PA a few weeks ago and I was surprised at how good my RWD 3 (with All Season stock tires) handled. The city was unprepared and most roads were not plowed (or barely) and no salt, so it was basically a great test for the car. There were large areas of slush and mounds of snow tracks.

I literally saw cars on the sides of roads, a BMW skidding and sliding in front of me, a mustang with flashers on and a hill that had 2 public buses crashed with a head on collision (luckily looked like a low speed crash and the fronts were touching but not smashed in). That road on a hill was all ice so that's the one time I had to turn around because the tires were slipping (but that was a sheet of ice on a hill, so not sure if AWD would have made a big difference, but winter tires probably. However my RWD All Season stock tires got me out of that situation when I did a slow uturn, or maybe I would have gotten stuck?).

I turned around and drove steadily with no sliding, no slipping or worrying. The M3 RWD was great under really bad conditions so I'm confident that I can at least handle the winter even with All Season tires. I'm not saying you shouldn't get winter tires or AWD if you live in more extreme areas but I have no regrets on RWD and we should all just be thankful that Tesla made incredible machinery to keep us safe.


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## PNWmisty

Vin said:


> That road on a hill was all ice so that's the one time I had to turn around because the tires were slipping (but that was a sheet of ice on a hill, so not sure if AWD would have made a big difference, but winter tires probably.


To be absolutely clear and accurate, no, AWD would not have helped AT ALL, not even a teeny amount. In fact, descending an ice-covered hill you would be slightly better off in an RWD Model 3 due to the 250 lbs. lighter weight. On ice, traction does not increase linearly with weight (but the traction requirements do). On a descent, the weight transfers forward and the AWD, with its nearly perfect 50/50 weight distribution would be slightly nose-heavy while the RWD would have nearly perfect 50/50 weight distribution.

Winter tires would absolutely have been a huge benefit. Studless winter tires have dramatically more traction on ice than even all-season radials.



> I have no regrets on RWD and we should all just be thankful that Tesla made incredible machinery to keep us safe.


Amen!


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## Mike

jiten87 said:


> Thank you! Do you have teslafi? What are your wh/mi numbers for the winter thus far?


I don't have teslafi (or any third party service) but I do keep records.

The wh/mi (km) numbers that one sees in the car are only capturing data while your wheels are moving.

With that said, my spread between what the car says I burn per month and my actual uplift to the car per month is 17% in warm weather ops.

My last full month of data is October and the car said 147 wh/km (230 per mile) _when the wheels are turning_.....

I still don't have November data yet but I do post it here: https://teslaownersonline.com/threads/mikes-monthly-model-3-efficiency-report.8945/


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