# FSD feature complete through SW only update later this year? HW3 implications?



## 96s46p (Jul 5, 2018)

During the model Y reveal Elon said FSD would be feature complete later this year "just with software updates". What does this mean for HW3? Will it be delayed? For retrofit? For new production?


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## NEO (Jun 28, 2017)

I noticed all the cars now come with 160 degree radar. Isn't that new? I haven't been keeping up with the current specs


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## 96s46p (Jul 5, 2018)

NEO said:


> I noticed all the cars now come with 160 degree radar. Isn't that new? I haven't been keeping up with the current specs


160m? No that hasn't changed.


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## BlueMeanie (Aug 20, 2018)

I believe he was talking about the Model Y which would obviously come with hardware v.3, so FSD would just be a software upgrade for the Model Y.


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## 96s46p (Jul 5, 2018)

BlueMeanie said:


> I believe he was talking about the Model Y which would obviously come with hardware v.3, so FSD would just be a software upgrade for the Model Y.


Doesn't make sense because if it is feature complete this year and model Y ships late 2020 then it wouldn't be a software upgrade it would just ship feature complete from the factory.


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## iChris93 (Feb 3, 2017)

96s46p said:


> Doesn't make sense because if it is feature complete this year and model Y ships late 2020 then it wouldn't be a software upgrade it would just ship feature complete from the factory.


It is confusing. Hope for some clarification.


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## BlueMeanie (Aug 20, 2018)

96s46p said:


> Doesn't make sense because if it is feature complete this year and model Y ships late 2020 then it wouldn't be a software upgrade it would just ship feature complete from the factory.


I took it to mean that purchasing FSD in the Y after delivery would be a software upgrade only. Implying HW 3 or greater would be standard in the Y (obviously) and that FSD would be "feature complete" later this year.
He has stated how much safer HW 3 will be with FSD than HW 2.5, so I can't see them releasing FSD on HW 2.5.


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## 96s46p (Jul 5, 2018)

I don't think he would go out of his way to make that point. It was more like "speaking of FSD, ..." They want to avoid spending time and money on hw3 retrofits as long as it is practical.


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## BlueMeanie (Aug 20, 2018)

I guess we’ll see. I expect an upgrade to HW 3 with my FSD. 
If folks have wrecks while using HW2.5 with FSD lawsuits would probably ensue since Elon specifically stated HW3 would be 100’s of times safer than humans while 2.5 is only 2-3 x safer.


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## Nautilus (Oct 10, 2018)

If I upgrade from AP to FSD this weekend for $3K before prices go up on Monday, I'd really like to know whether that automatically includes retrofitting my microprocessor from 2.5 to 3.0 for free. All we have so far as evidence of this is a single tweet from Mr. Musk (I believe - would love to be corrected on that). I get that I'm not getting new and/or additional cameras but hopefully new hardware to better process the data they're collecting .A lot of the value to me in the $3K upgrade is the additional processing power of the possible HW upgrade since who knows when the govt. will certify FSD.


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## Guest (Mar 15, 2019)

How to* evaluate HW3 hardware maximum capability*: is going to give us *up to Level 4 *autonomy or* Level 5*.
Difference is "either in most scenarios of driving" or "all scenarios" vehicle is fully self driving.
Well. If it doesn't have rear camera washing capability it is 100.0% Level 4. And not a drop more.
Except if Elon can sanitize all roads on this planet.

So as soon as we confirm there is no washing capability we can confirm Level 4 limitation which can NEVER be fixed by software.
Because... weather.














Though "FSD capability" translates directly to "level 4" with no questions to ask.


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## Long Ranger (Jun 1, 2018)

Nautilus said:


> If I upgrade from AP to FSD this weekend for $3K before prices go up on Monday, I'd really like to know whether that automatically includes retrofitting my microprocessor from 2.5 to 3.0 for free. All we have so far as evidence of this is a single tweet from Mr. Musk (I believe - would love to be corrected on that). I get that I'm not getting new and/or additional cameras but hopefully new hardware to better process the data they're collecting .A lot of the value to me in the $3K upgrade is the additional processing power of the possible HW upgrade since who knows when the govt. will certify FSD.


Is two tweets enough? 

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1105340648985518080

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1052104593876774912
Plus I've seen mention that they also stated it in some of their quarterly meetings, but I haven't verified that.

I know I was a pretty reluctant EAP and FSD buyer last year, but the promised hardware upgrade did help to convince me on FSD. I also tend to keep cars for a really long time, so I figured it would be worth it over the life of the car. If you don't keep cars a long time, at least there's the likely increase in resale value to consider.


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## BlueMeanie (Aug 20, 2018)

Pulled the trigger on FSD at $2,000 today because Monday it’s $5,000 and I know I’d regret not doing it.
I fully expect upgraded hardware later this year.


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## littlD (Apr 17, 2016)

BlueMeanie said:


> Pulled the trigger on FSD at $2,000 today because Monday it's $5,000 and I know I'd regret not doing it.
> I fully expect upgraded hardware later this year.


Same!

Paying $2,000 now is a small price to future proof the car while I wait for Model Y.


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## SoFlaModel3 (Apr 15, 2017)

The Model Y event motivated me to pull the trigger on FSD before prices go back up Monday. I hope I don’t regret it...


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## iChris93 (Feb 3, 2017)

SoFlaModel3 said:


> The Model Y event motivated me to pull the trigger on FSD before prices go back up Monday. I hope I don't regret it...


On both?


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## SoFlaModel3 (Apr 15, 2017)

iChris93 said:


> On both?


No Model Y for us with the 2 new cars last year.


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## BW984 (Nov 30, 2018)

I upgraded to FSD a few days ago as well to avoid paying double for the same upgrade next year. I often wonder if HW3 will do normal EAP functions better than previous hardware? I’d love to get more confident lane changes that better mimic how human drivers change lanes, you’d think with greatly increased processing power that would be possible.


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## littlD (Apr 17, 2016)

BW984 said:


> I upgraded to FSD a few days ago as well to avoid paying double for the same upgrade next year. I often wonder if HW3 will do normal EAP functions better than previous hardware? I'd love to get more confident lane changes that better mimic how human drivers change lanes, you'd think with greatly increased processing power that would be possible.


At some point, AP functions will be included in the larger set of capabilities FSD will offer.

At that time, it'll be inherently better and depend on the increased computing power and ability to process the much larger neural network that can't be handled with HW2.


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## Love (Sep 13, 2017)

For those that have recently added FSD, did you get a software update for your car similar to a firmware update? Was there any confirmation via the app to start the download or was it automatic? Also, was there any notification on the screen of the car when complete? Tempted to head out to my car and check to see if it’s available already in my settings.


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## GDN (Oct 30, 2017)

SoFlaModel3 said:


> No Model Y for us with the 2 new cars last year.


I think @iChris93 was asking if you pulled the trigger on FSD on both of the current cars. At least that was my thought and question. I'm not sure you have EAP on your wife's car though, don't recall.


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## SoFlaModel3 (Apr 15, 2017)

GDN said:


> I think @iChris93 was asking if you pulled the trigger on FSD on both of the current cars. At least that was my thought and question. I'm not sure you have EAP on your wife's car though, don't recall.


A ha - good catch!

No EAP, AP, or FSD for my wife's car even at a discount


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## littlD (Apr 17, 2016)

Lovesword said:


> For those that have recently added FSD, did you get a software update for your car similar to a firmware update? Was there any confirmation via the app to start the download or was it automatic? Also, was there any notification on the screen of the car when complete? Tempted to head out to my car and check to see if it's available already in my settings.


Not Yet, we'll see in 2 days or so (three days was the promised timeframe, but I know that isn't accurate...)


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## El Matadurr (Feb 15, 2019)

arnis said:


> So as soon as we confirm there is no washing capability we can confirm Level 4 limitation which can NEVER be fixed by software.
> Because... weather.


Couldn't agree more. On my Ioniq due to the low-pressure bubble trapping all road dust and grime, the back up camera gets dirty and fuzzy after just 30ish miles. Less if there is salt on the roads. Much less.

On my Model 3 the problem isn't as bad since it doesn't produce the same low-pressure vortex (no teardrop shape), but any splashing from the road still gunks up the lens. Never knew rear-view camera washing systems were even a thing until you posted those videos. Cool stuff.


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## slacker775 (May 30, 2018)

As for the potentially ‘free’ HW3 upgrade for existing FSD owners, lets hope that Tesla doesn’t pull the ultimate screw-job and have HW2.5 ‘support’ FSD, although sub-optimally but enough to make the lawyers happy and then turn around and sell HW3 upgrades for better capability. To my knowledge, there has never been any kind of contractual language stating without any ambiguity that if you buy FSC now, you will definitely get any and all hardware upgrades required to get the full capability from FSD. We have A few random tweets but those are far from legally binding. I suppose with HW3 fairly imminent, we should finally start to get some clarity on it, and hopefully in a good way.


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## littlD (Apr 17, 2016)

slacker775 said:


> As for the potentially 'free' HW3 upgrade for existing FSD owners, lets hope that Tesla doesn't pull the ultimate screw-job and have HW2.5 'support' FSD, although sub-optimally but enough to make the lawyers happy and then turn around and sell HW3 upgrades for better capability. To my knowledge, there has never been any kind of contractual language stating without any ambiguity that if you buy FSC now, you will definitely get any and all hardware upgrades required to get the full capability from FSD. We have A few random tweets but those are far from legally binding. I suppose with HW3 fairly imminent, we should finally start to get some clarity on it, and hopefully in a good way.


If I recall, the neural network was trimmed to fit on HW2.5.

I would imagine you'll need HW3 for the much larger one that FSD uses.


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## theblindtree (May 1, 2018)

Lovesword said:


> For those that have recently added FSD, did you get a software update for your car similar to a firmware update? Was there any confirmation via the app to start the download or was it automatic? Also, was there any notification on the screen of the car when complete? Tempted to head out to my car and check to see if it's available already in my settings.


I got a splash screen on the car thanking me for my purchase when AP installed/unlocked. However for FSD, I got in the car, ready to go home after work, and it suddenly shut down before I could put it in reverse. It took me a few seconds to realize that it was probably rebooting to integrate the new features. Sure enough, a few minutes later, everything showed in the options menu for NoAP.


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## SoFlaModel3 (Apr 15, 2017)

slacker775 said:


> As for the potentially 'free' HW3 upgrade for existing FSD owners, lets hope that Tesla doesn't pull the ultimate screw-job and have HW2.5 'support' FSD, although sub-optimally but enough to make the lawyers happy and then turn around and sell HW3 upgrades for better capability. To my knowledge, there has never been any kind of contractual language stating without any ambiguity that if you buy FSC now, you will definitely get any and all hardware upgrades required to get the full capability from FSD. We have A few random tweets but those are far from legally binding. I suppose with HW3 fairly imminent, we should finally start to get some clarity on it, and hopefully in a good way.


The backlash of not delivering HW3 or all of the functionality would destroy the company. You better believe you're getting HW3 or whatever is necessary to have FSD fully operational as the features become available.


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## Nautilus (Oct 10, 2018)

theblindtree said:


> I got a splash screen on the car thanking me for my purchase when AP installed/unlocked. However for FSD, I got in the car, ready to go home after work, and it suddenly shut down before I could put it in reverse. It took me a few seconds to realize that it was probably rebooting to integrate the new features. Sure enough, a few minutes later, everything showed in the options menu for NoAP.


@theblindtree , am I correct that you made these purchases separately (a couple days apart when it became evident that the prices were going back up on Monday)? If so, roughly how long after your purchased the FSD upgrade did it become available?


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## SoFlaModel3 (Apr 15, 2017)

Nautilus said:


> @theblindtree , am I correct that you made these purchases separately (a couple days apart when it became evident that the prices were going back up on Monday)? If so, roughly how long after your purchased the FSD upgrade did it become available?


FSD should not have led to an update in the car. The functionality that is available is "there" and software locked.


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## Nautilus (Oct 10, 2018)

SoFlaModel3 said:


> FSD should not have led to an update in the car. The functionality that is available is "there" and software locked.


OK, how long until the unlock came through then ? It doesn't appear to be immediate (at least for me) and I got the same screen as when I first added auto-pilot (below being a screenshot from earlier today when I updated from AP only to AP+FSD, but I'm pretty sure its identical to the screen when I first added AP):








And I don't think "Drivers Assistance" exists in Settings anymore. Isn't it now called Autopilot? Now I'm getting nit-picky....


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## SoFlaModel3 (Apr 15, 2017)

Nautilus said:


> OK, how long until the unlock came through then ? It doesn't appear to be immediate (at least for me) and I got the same screen as when I first added auto-pilot (below being a screenshot from earlier today when I updated from AP only to AP+FSD, but I'm pretty sure its identical to the screen when I first added AP):
> View attachment 23413
> 
> And I don't think "Drivers Assistance" exists in Settings anymore. Isn't it now called Autopilot? Now I'm getting nit-picky....


I don't want to give you a bad answer ... so to confirm your car had none of these options... then you added AP and then a few days later you added FSD and you see the AP stuff but not the FSD stuff that is available?


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## Nautilus (Oct 10, 2018)

SoFlaModel3 said:


> I don't want to give you a bad answer ... so to confirm your car had none of these options... then you added AP and then a few days later you added FSD and you see the AP stuff but not the FSD stuff that is available?


Correct. Purchased last fall, no EAP or FSD. Upgraded to AP last week when the price for me dropped to $2K. That functionality appeared about 48 hours after the purchase (and after upgrading to 2019.5.15). Several days later, after learning that prices are going back up on Monday, I upgraded again today to FSD for an additional $3K. It's only been 12 hours since I did the FSD upgrade, I'm just wondering when I'll get the functionality. I'm thinking it will be over the next 3 days, but I believe others got it instantly. That said, they may have been people who already had EAP (either at purchase or perhaps upgraded before 28-Feb-2019). Not a big deal, just being curious and impatient.


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## SoFlaModel3 (Apr 15, 2017)

Nautilus said:


> Correct. Purchased last fall, no EAP or FSD. Upgraded to AP last week when the price for me dropped to $2K. That functionality appeared about 48 hours after the purchase (and after upgrading to 2019.5.15). Several days later, after learning that prices are going back up on Monday, I upgraded again today to FSD for an additional $3K. It's only been 12 hours since I did the FSD upgrade, I'm just wondering when I'll get the functionality. I'm thinking it will be over the next 3 days, but I believe others got it instantly. That said, they may have been people who already had EAP (either at purchase or perhaps upgraded before 28-Feb-2019). Not a big deal, just being curious and impatient.


It's possible that a software update is refreshing what's available to your car, but I do think it may have been coincidence. My guess is that this is a manual process and it just takes time for the team to update the cars with their available options.


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## theblindtree (May 1, 2018)

Nautilus said:


> @theblindtree , am I correct that you made these purchases separately (a couple days apart when it became evident that the prices were going back up on Monday)? If so, roughly how long after your purchased the FSD upgrade did it become available?


They were separate purchases, and in each instance it took right at 3 days for them to activate.


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## Hugh_Jassol (Jan 31, 2019)

*Will people who buy FSD get updated to HW3 as part of that? YES*
Reference Article. Quote from Article (written 20 FEB 2019):​

> During his conversation with the ARK Invest CIO and analyst, Musk reiterated a point he made last year, stating that everyone who purchased Full Self-Driving would be getting Tesla's Hardware 3 upgrade for free.


​*It's a simple swap of computers:*

Reference Article. _NOTE: Article written in Oct 2018_. Relevant Quote from article, quoting Elon:​_



"[It's] very important to emphasize that the only thing that needs to change between a car that's produced today and a car that's going to be produced in the second quarter of next year is probably the autopilot computer. This is a simply change that takes about half an hour to upgrade the computer. Anyone will be able to upgrade their car to Full Self-Driving capability with a simple service visit. "

Click to expand...

_​​


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## slacker775 (May 30, 2018)

I think we’ve all seen Elon’s tweets regarding HW3 upgrades for FSD owners so by all accounts, we SHOULD be getting the upgrade. The overriding concern is that there is zero actual contractual language stating that we definitely will get that, or any other upgrades that are required. Glib statements from executives doesn’t necessarily translate into a binding contract. It would be a major PR disaster for Tesla to - I hate to say - ‘reneg’ on the deal, but we’ve already gotten a small taste of that with the FSD pricing debacle. Legally, they could make FSD stuff kind of work on HW2.5 and say they fulfilled their end of the bargain, and that all of us have to pay for HW3 upgrades to get a better experience. They’d lose in the court of public opinion, but could very well win in court, where it matters most. If each HW3 computer is about 1k in their cost, that’s a big, and ever growing hit to profitability. Sooner they get it out there the better, no doubt.

If it wound up in court, it would wind up as a class action, Tesla would settle, lawyers would get a bunch of money and we’d all get $50 and a coupon to get somewhere near the front of the line for HW3 upgrades.

Ideally, HW3 rolls out next month, the existing FSD backlog isn’t too bad and they do the right thing and upgrade all of us - most especially the ones that got a bit hosed by buying in early and believing.


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## M3OC Rules (Nov 18, 2016)

SoFlaModel3 said:


> It's possible that a software update is refreshing what's available to your car, but I do think it may have been coincidence. My guess is that this is a manual process and it just takes time for the team to update the cars with their available options.


Perhaps they don't download the autopilot parts of the firmware when you get an update if you don't have that. Seems unlikely but that would explain why it comes with an update. It's also strange that some people have EAP who didn't order it. Their account doesn't show they ordered it but the car has it and has through multiple firmware updates.


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## SoFlaModel3 (Apr 15, 2017)

M3OC Rules said:


> Perhaps they don't download the autopilot parts of the firmware when you get an update if you don't have that. Seems unlikely but that would explain why it comes with an update. It's also strange that some people have EAP who didn't order it. Their account doesn't show they ordered it but the car has it and has through multiple firmware updates.


That last sentence is exactly why I assume it's just an a flag on the car and it's manual to set it.


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## Dr. Prunesquallor (Dec 11, 2018)

Lovesword said:


> For those that have recently added FSD, did you get a software update for your car similar to a firmware update? Was there any confirmation via the app to start the download or was it automatic? Also, was there any notification on the screen of the car when complete? Tempted to head out to my car and check to see if it's available already in my settings.


Updated to AP and then FSD. The only way I knew they happened was when new options showed up on the app and the car's menu. The updates were automatic. The car was charging in the garage (which has good WiFi).


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## Love (Sep 13, 2017)

Dr. Prunesquallor said:


> Updated to AP and then FSD. The only way I knew they happened was when new options showed up on the app and the car's menu. The updates were automatic. The car was charging in the garage (which has good WiFi).


I think that since I had the previous EAP I really didn't see anything change and started to wonder. I have the NoA and summon already in my settings, but was wondering if there was _more_ to it than that. Like a FSD toggle that does nothing!!! 
Or maybe I was feeling not as special as my wife ...whose Model S (which also has EAP prior to the FSD purchase) gave her this little gem of a message!


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## Dr. Prunesquallor (Dec 11, 2018)

Lovesword said:


> I think that since I had the previous EAP I really didn't see anything change and started to wonder. I have the NoA and summon already in my settings, but was wondering if there was _more_ to it than that. Like a FSD toggle that does nothing!!!
> Or maybe I was feeling not as special as my wife ...whose Model S (which also has EAP prior to the FSD purchase) gave her this little gem of a message!
> View attachment 23468


Interesting! Now I feel decidedly un-special.


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## Bernard (Aug 3, 2017)

96s46p said:


> I don't think he would go out of his way to make that point. It was more like "speaking of FSD, ..." They want to avoid spending time and money on hw3 retrofits as long as it is practical.


Well, however charismatic Elon can be, he is actually a terrible public speaker -- constantly second-guessing himself, searching for words, leaving sentences incomplete... It's sort of endearing, but it does not make for very clear communication... His tweets are usually clearer, but then again they usually are in answer to questions and so contain information on just a couple of aspects of the situation. And the Tesla web pages carry no useful information at all... So we just have to discover it as we go!
But given that Musk was speaking at the Model Y unveil, i think his references were clearly to Model Y, i.e., to some time in 2020.

I am quite sure Tesla would love to update all existing cars with FSD to HW 3.0 asap (better safety, better publicity, better service, more happy customers), but it has so many irons in the fire right now (Model Y unveil follow-up; fundraising for tooling up the Shanghai Gigafactory, for expanding Gigafactory and tooling it for Model Y, and for tooling up a Semi production line; preparing the pickup truck unveil "later this year", etc.; etc.) that it can really only do so much... Let the Model Y unveil and flurry of orders and questions settle down, let the promised March upgrade in range and power (plus updated other features) get pushed to most of the fleet, and in late April or so Tesla and we will have some breathing space in which to consider HW 3.0 upgrades ;-)


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## Bernard (Aug 3, 2017)

Lovesword said:


> I think that since I had the previous EAP I really didn't see anything change and started to wonder. I have the NoA and summon already in my settings, but was wondering if there was _more_ to it than that. Like a FSD toggle that does nothing!!!
> Or maybe I was feeling not as special as my wife ...whose Model S (which also has EAP prior to the FSD purchase) gave her this little gem of a message!
> View attachment 23468


If you had EAP, then there are still no new features under FSD; what Tesla did when creating the new (AP + FSD2) to replace the old (EAP + FSD1) -- the 1 and 2 are mine to distinguish the old FSD package from the new one -- is simply transfer a number of the more advanced features in EAP (summon, drive on navigation, etc.) out of EAP to FSD2.
FSD1 never had any features -- it was supposed to get some last fall, but that did not happen and Tesla apparently decided to release all new features directly to EAP, until this month. Since then, progress on features has been bug fixes and modest additions not related to autonomous driving (such as Sentry and Dog modes). So, as of today, we can write

-> AP+FSD2 current features == EAP current features

Presumably, however, that will start changing in the near future.

What is completely unclear at this point, however, is what fraction of future FSD2 features owners with EAP only will get (that fraction is 0 for owners with AP only) -- will all new FSD2 features be regarded as "beyond EAP" or only some of them?
For instance, a form of summon was already part of EAP, so will refinements to it continue to be pushed to owners with just EAP? or will Tesla differentiate between "basic summon" (part of EAP) and "advanced summon" (only available with FSD, even for owners with EAP)?
So it was a good move to pay for the FSD supplement in the last few weeks, since that way you are sure to get *all* new features.


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## garsh (Apr 4, 2016)

slacker775 said:


> I think we've all seen Elon's tweets regarding HW3 upgrades for FSD owners so by all accounts, we SHOULD be getting the upgrade. The overriding concern is that there is zero actual contractual language stating that we definitely will get that, or any other upgrades that are required.


There's also zero actual contractual language that Tesla will ever send a software update to your car, yet they do. Constantly.

I understand the concern, but I don't think it's worth dwelling on the subject. If Tesla can deliver FSD with current hardware, then great. If not, then Musk has stated that the purchase of FSD will include any necessary hardware updates, and I have no reason to believe that Tesla won't stand behind that statement. If they don't, then they'll have several lawsuits on their hands. Relax, and trust that Tesla will do the right thing here, and keep that promise.


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