# Vision is not enough?



## iChris93 (Feb 3, 2017)

Apparently our cars needs ears too for FSD.

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1414701279171993602


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## slasher016 (Sep 12, 2017)

Hopefully the already extant internal mic is enough...


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## SoFlaModel3 (Apr 15, 2017)

Some of these cars with FSD equipped will probably be 10+ years old by the time the functionality catches up to the name “Full Self Driving”


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## DocScott (Mar 6, 2019)

I was a little creeped out by Elon's tweet. I don't like the idea that the mic is listening even when I haven't pushed the button for a voice command.


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## garsh (Apr 4, 2016)

DocScott said:


> I was a little creeped out by Elon's tweet. I don't like the idea that the mic is listening even when I haven't pushed the button for a voice command.


Yet you probably carry a microphone-equipped device in your pocket at all times that you've somehow convinced yourself isn't "always listening" .


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## iChris93 (Feb 3, 2017)

SoFlaModel3 said:


> Some of these cars with FSD equipped will probably be 10+ years old by the time the functionality catches up to the name "Full Self Driving"


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## DocScott (Mar 6, 2019)

garsh said:


> Yet you probably carry a microphone-equipped device in your pocket at all times that you've somehow convinced yourself isn't "always listening" .


Actually, I don't, because I don't own a smartphone. I do have an iPad, but in a closed case (and usually in a messenger bag) and asleep, I don't have the same level of concern.

To be fair, I use Alexa in my house, which _is_ always listening. But Amazon uses a wake word system, which at least means there's a bright line by policy. Certainly Amazon _could_ have those devices record and use what I say even if I hadn't used the wake word, but if such a thing were ever discovered it would be a ginormous scandal. Amazon also has an option that can monitor for sounds like glass breaking, but that's opt in, and is meant to be used when no one is home.

The way Tesla has set things up, though, there's not the same bright line. Apparently the mic can monitor sounds without the wake action (pushing the button) and has said it's willing to use that information. There's also good evidence that it already uses the interior camera to, e.g., change the frequency of AP wheel nags if it thinks the driver is not paying attention to the road. In theory, then, the mic could be used to determine if a driver is speaking on a hands-free phone call, which in many states you're not supposed to do while driving.

I guess the short version is that Amazon bends over backward to describe the privacy guardrails they have in place. Those guardrails are self-imposed, and they absolutely could disable them if they wanted to be nefarious. But Tesla hasn't told us about guardrails at all. That's what makes it creepy, for me.


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## FRC (Aug 4, 2018)

DocScott said:


> Actually, I don't, because I don't own a smartphone. I do have an iPad, but in a closed case (and usually in a messenger bag) and asleep, I don't have the same level of concern.
> 
> To be fair, I use Alexa in my house, which _is_ always listening. But Amazon uses a wake word system, which at least means there's a bright line by policy. Certainly Amazon _could_ have those devices record and use what I say even if I hadn't used the wake word, but if such a thing were ever discovered it would be a ginormous scandal. Amazon also has an option that can monitor for sounds like glass breaking, but that's opt in, and is meant to be used when no one is home.
> 
> ...


For the greatest extent I agree with your post. However, I seem to recall one self-imposed guardrail that Tesla did indicate. I believe back when they activated the interior cameras and allowed to opt in or not, they indicated that if you opted in, anything that they used from an individuals interior camera would be used anonymously. Am I remembering that correctly?


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## garsh (Apr 4, 2016)

DocScott said:


> Actually, I don't, because I don't own a smartphone.


Even dumb phones have an ever-present microphone.


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## DocScott (Mar 6, 2019)

garsh said:


> Even dumb phones have an ever-present microphone.


I don't have a dumb cell phone either.

And I don't take my landline with me when I'm out and about.:laughing:

As I mentioned my iPad can make and receive calls in a pinch, so your basic point is correct. There's a mic with me when I'm in the car. It's in a closed case. Likely in a bag. In a device that's asleep.

_Could _it monitor me if Apple made a concerted effort to do so? Probably. Would that be a casual effort on Apple's part? No.

The Tesla mic is _designed_ to be able to hear what I'm saying when I'm sitting in the driver's seat. And apparently it will be used to analyze the information that it's getting the whole time that I'm driving--no sleep, no wake word or action. The barrier to abuse is much lower.


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## JasonF (Oct 26, 2018)

I'm familiar with voice recognition software, and for the most part, it's too resource intensive to continually record everything it hears. So what it does is grab short audio clips, check it for trigger words, and then discard the clip. Even the most violating of the voice recognition systems only send clips to the cloud when it thinks it hears a command (but that does include "failed commands" sometimes as well).

What they _actually_ do that's bad for privacy is things you actually _ask_ it to do. Amazon and Google use those convenient commands combined with your location, number of people in the household, and stated or guessed income level (Amazon can tell just by the amount of stuff you buy) to target products and subscriptions to you. And then they sell that information so other companies can also target you.

I've actually had many instances where I would be somewhere in public and ask someone something, and they would use google for an answer, or look up something at Amazon on their own phone…and then later that day I home and see Youtube videos on the same subject. How did they do that? Easy, Google knows you were physically close by to someone who was googling that subject via GPS location, and that search was attached to you. Or maybe you were on the same wifi network. It happens very frequently, and so many people just dismiss it as coincidence.


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## iChris93 (Feb 3, 2017)

DocScott said:


> The Tesla mic is _designed_ to be able to hear what I'm saying when I'm sitting in the driver's seat. And apparently it will be used to analyze the information that it's getting the whole time that I'm driving--no sleep, no wake word or action. The barrier to abuse is much lower.


I don't think they will use the internal mic for this.


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## DocScott (Mar 6, 2019)

iChris93 said:


> I don't think they will use the internal mic for this.


I had to go back to look at Elon's tweets quoted at the start of this thread, and realize they could be interpreted as needing another hardware upgrade to install an external mic (probably a free upgrade for people with FSD). That makes a _lot_ more sense to me, for multiple reasons, than repurposing the internal mic.


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## garsh (Apr 4, 2016)

DocScott said:


> I had to go back to look at Elon's tweets quoted at the start of this thread, and realize they could be interpreted as needing another hardware upgrade to install an external mic (probably a free upgrade for people with FSD). That makes a _lot_ more sense to me, for multiple reasons, than repurposing the internal mic.


OTOH, I think it makes sense to use the internal mic.

It's hardware that's already in the car.
Elon likes re-using hardware for additional purposes rather than adding more (redundant) hardware. Auto-wipers that re-use the autopilot cameras is a good example of this.
Sirens must be audible to human drivers, who sit inside the car, so they should also be audible to an internal microphone.


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## JasonF (Oct 26, 2018)

garsh said:


> OTOH, I think it makes sense to use the internal mic.
> 
> It's hardware that's already in the car.
> Elon likes re-using hardware for additional purposes rather than adding more (redundant) hardware. Auto-wipers that re-use the autopilot cameras is a good example of this.
> Sirens must be audible to human drivers, who sit inside the car, so they should also be audible to an internal microphone.


And 4. An external microphone (outside the car) would pick up a lot of background interference from wind, road noise, and the environment.


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