# Tesla acceleration complaints - The Washington Post



## GeorgeIP

Trevor:

Recently I had an accident where I panicked when at stopped for a traffic light the "hold" released on my Model 3 and the car started rolling forward. To stop the car I quickly moved my feet forward and intending to press the brake I accidentally got the accelerator instead plowing into a motorcycle and, in turn, another car ahead of me before stopping. (The photo above is from WAPO & not my accident. [MOD EDIT: inlined photo removed since it's not relevant - still available below as attachment]) Tesla said I had hit the accelerator pedal and I swore that was not true since I had my legs tucked under me while the car was sitting still. After some testing I realized how sensitive was either of the pedals. Even just a slight graze of the pedals knocks the system off of "hold"! So, it's likely that Tesla was correct. Further, I get a scolding because my feet pressed both pedals at the same time. (Are they closer than in an ICE car??) In any case, my guess is that my experience was repeated in the instances described in this Washington Post article:

Tesla faces federal review of complaints its cars accelerate without warning
The federal auto safety agency says it has received 127 complaints about cars taking off by themselves.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/loca...tm_source=Newsletter&wpisrc=nl_rainbow&wpmm=1

Thanks,

George Pupala
[MOD NOTE] removed personal contact info from public view


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## Klaus-rf

Are these cars possessed??


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## bsunny

There’s nothing I can think to say here... maybe, It’s not the car?

hmmmm... note to self: maybe don’t post when you are overly tired. Maybe I shouldn’t drive now either. 🥺🥴🤔🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣


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## JasonF

The first thought I had was that the "one pedal" feature might be causing some chaos by being on by default. People who either came from an ICE vehicle, or _also_ drive one, might get used to the dynamic when parking of using only the brake pedal for low-speed maneuvering. Then when they're tired or not paying attention, they treat the Tesla accelerator pedal like an ICE brake pedal, and push it all the way down before switching to Park.

But mostly, I'm suspicious that these articles popped up the weekend after Tesla stock hit $500 a share.


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## bwilson4web

I went through the Toyota "unexpected acceleration" fiasco in 2009-2010. After learning the air bag black box was showing the accelerator was being mashed, the complaints and lawsuits dried up. However, we did find one weakness in the encoder. With a dual pot, they had offset resistances but the same slope. A better approach has one with a positive and the other a negative slope.

With the extensive logs, Tesla will have a lot of data showing miss application of accelerator versus brake. BUT there is a wild-card, random core smasher(s).

Up until October, my Tesla required random reboots. I'd started doing three levels: (1) double button, do anytime, (2) brake double button, and (3) hard power down and restart. Most of the problems with navigation and bluetooth were solved by the simple reboot. I was trying to find out if either of the two more extensive reboots were associated with other, specific symptoms. But since then, other than an initial brake double button (sanity) reboot, no other events.

This is one of those cases where NHTSA is going to have a big problem. By the time the NHTSA has analyzed any given incident, the software will have gone through at least three or more updates. So what is NHTSA supposed to do?

[draft] NHTSA ANNOUNCEMENT: Do not run Tesla software earlier than 2019.40.50.*​
The NHTSA lacks the technical staff, equipment, and skills to analyze Tesla software. They are worse off than the FAA looking at the Boeing 737 Max software. Even the NTSB which has better skills, remains a year late trying to analyze Teslas . . . although running into stopped vehicles seems to be reproducible.

Bob Wilson


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## garsh

bwilson4web said:


> I went through the Toyota "unexpected acceleration" fiasco in 2009-2010. .... However, we did find one weakness in the encoder. With a dual pot, they had offset resistances but the same slope. A better approach has one with a positive and the other a negative slope.


Here's how Jason Hughes describes Tesla's system.

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1107756746309685248


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## garsh

GeorgeIP said:


> Tesla said I had hit the accelerator pedal and I swore that was not true since I had my legs tucked under me while the car was sitting still.


Of course you did. Absolutely nobody intended to press the accelerator in any of these circumstances. But that's exactly what happened in every one of them.


> After some testing I realized how sensitive was either of the pedals. Even just a slight graze of the pedals knocks the system off of "hold"! So, it's likely that Tesla was correct.


Yep. And the people who go through and file lawsuits are the people who can't accept their own responsibility and believe that somebody else *must* be at fault.


> Further, I get a scolding because my feet pressed both pedals at the same time. (Are they closer than in an ICE car??)


No, they're not any closer than in any other car I've had.
And the brake pedal is slightly raised above the position of the accelerator, just like on every other car.
It's a pretty standard setup.


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## bwilson4web

One of the things Ingineerix points out are the dual controllers on opposite sides of the 'firewall.' This is flight-critical design which sad to say, the original Boeing 737 Max failed because they used either one or the other without cross checking. Our three Prius had single, hybrid controllers. Redundant controllers is a very good thing as a single failure is more likely to be detected and corrected.

It has been 2-3 months since I had to manually reboot the car. This suggests the most recent code base has eliminated some previous defect. Then I saw this YouTube:





At 13:09 he reports a problem that cleared while the car was parked.
Bob Wilson


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## SR22pilot

See CleanTechnica article. Person filing the petition is a Tesla short and doesn’t own a Tesla.


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## iChris93

garsh said:


> No, they're not any closer than in any other car I've had.
> And the brake pedal is slightly raised above the position of the accelerator, just like on every other car.
> It's a pretty standard setup.


Furthermore, pressing both limits or kills the input from the accelerator.


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## JasonF

Remember also that internal combustion has an engine that’s always running and providing power. Unintended acceleration with ICE is harder to prevent, because there are so many things that can cause the engine to provide a lot of power very suddenly (vacuum leak, internal fuel leak, turbo failure, electronic throttle failure, ECU failure, EGR or MAP failure) all by itself.

Pure EV’s on the other hand don’t provide any power whatsoever without input (unless you have creep mode on) - either from the driver, or a system that is activated by the driver. So the only safety failures possible would be either driver error or failure of the one and only device providing the input.

The “autopilot turned itself on and ran away” excuse doesn’t work, because it both will disengage if you brake, and is aware of solid obstacles around it. Basic cruise and traffic-aware cruise also deactivate on braking (and TACC is also obstacle aware). And every one of those people insisted they were braking, and it didn’t stop the car.


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## iChris93

JasonF said:


> aware of solid obstacles around it.


This is sometimes questionable since they sometimes run into the back of parked fire trucks.


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## pjfw8

Prior sudden acceleration claims have been uniformly proven false. That was the experience with Audi, Toyota Camry and prior Tesla claims. Still it needs to be examined. The timing is odd.


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## VoltageDrop

The timing is *"odd" *indeed.......hmmmm......I mean....why _*would *_you want the stock to tank before going into what many are saying will be a positive earning report.....this short seller is a big POS.......he wants to make money by slandering TSLA to short it.... and I am sure he wants to pick it back up on the cheap going into the earnings report to profit on the upside as well.......scum of the earth......shorting a stock should not be allowed....you SHOULD NOT be able to "trade" stocks that are not yours to do so.....BS to say the least.....


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## Frully

GeorgeIP said:


> Tesla faces federal review of complaints its cars accelerate without warning
> The federal auto safety agency says it has received 127 complaints about cars taking off by themselves.


Speculation but educated guess based on my experience 'transitioning' to single pedal driving: It's easy to eff up. Taking 20 years of traditional (auto and manual) experience and then suddenly going to forklift hydrostatic driving throws me off a bit. I love it...but there are old habits in there - going to apply a pedal to slow down but that pedal is your accelerator being lifted carefully to modulate speed...but your lizard brain says you have to press a pedal because you are stopped...and suddenly you are launching. It's humans. humans are at fault.


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## garsh

I accidentally hit the accelerator once when I meant to hit the brake while parking. Luckily, this was in my anemic Nissan Leaf, so I was able to correct and slam on the brake before hitting the truck parked across from me. I doubt I would have been so lucky if I had made that mistake in a Tesla.


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## JasonF

Frully said:


> Speculation but educated guess based on my experience 'transitioning' to single pedal driving: It's easy to eff up. Taking 20 years of traditional (auto and manual) experience and then suddenly going to forklift hydrostatic driving throws me off a bit. I love it...but there are old habits in there - going to apply a pedal to slow down but that pedal is your accelerator being lifted carefully to modulate speed...but your lizard brain says you have to press a pedal because you are stopped...and suddenly you are launching. It's humans. humans are at fault.


Remember, the "one pedal" feature, Regen, and Creep are all adjustable. If anyone feels that it's unsafe, or that they can't adjust after years of driving ICE cars, they can change the options to match. The way Teslas drive is not inherently un-safe.

What might become an issue with more people buying them now is what the default factory setup will be in the future.


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## Bokonon

Tesla's official blog has a statement on this topic today:

https://www.tesla.com/blog/no-unintended-acceleration-tesla-vehicles

The post doesn't present much detail beyond what we've already discussed upthread, but it's nice to see an official source lay out the facts (including the petition's origin) in a simple, straightforward manner. Content is below.

*There is no "unintended acceleration" in Tesla vehicles*
The Tesla Team
January 20, 2020

This petition is completely false and was brought by a Tesla short-seller. We investigate every single incident where the driver alleges to us that their vehicle accelerated contrary to their input, and in every case where we had the vehicle's data, we confirmed that the car operated as designed. In other words, the car accelerates if, and only if, the driver told it to do so, and it slows or stops when the driver applies the brake.

While accidents caused by a mistaken press of the accelerator pedal have been alleged for nearly every make/model of vehicle on the road, the accelerator pedals in Model S, X and 3 vehicles have two independent position sensors, and if there is any error, the system defaults to cut off motor torque. Likewise, applying the brake pedal simultaneously with the accelerator pedal will override the accelerator pedal input and cut off motor torque, and regardless of the torque, sustained braking will stop the car. Unique to Tesla, we also use the Autopilot sensor suite to help distinguish potential pedal misapplications and cut torque to mitigate or prevent accidents when we're confident the driver's input was unintentional. Each system is independent and records data, so we can examine exactly what happened.

We are transparent with NHTSA, and routinely review customer complaints of unintended acceleration with them. Over the past several years, we discussed with NHTSA the majority of the complaints alleged in the petition. In every case we reviewed with them, the data proved the vehicle functioned properly.


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## JWardell

garsh said:


> Here's how Jason Hughes describes Tesla's system.
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1107756746309685248


This is how it works in almost all cars with drive-by-wire electronic accelerator pedals across almost all brands for well over a dozen years. Not unique to Tesla at all and well proven.
Humans, however, are well proven to do the wrong thing, especially when startled, and their memory is even less reliable.
The difference is your Toyota takes a while to start moving when you mash the gas pedal, and folks have time to correct. A Tesla takes off like a lightning bolt, causes more surprise, and before you know it, your foot told the car to drive through that building.
Now thankfully Tesla reduces acceleration if something is close enough to activate the ultrasonic parking sensors, I feel that quite often when I'm starting to go and traffic in front of me is a bit slow. But it doesn't stop you from hitting them.
Tesla allows you to override its system when you hit the gas or brake. They still give the human ultimate control. It will try to reduce impact to reduce injury, but if you are commanding it to crash, it still will do so. 
Personally I wish Tesla defaulted to a don't-hit-anything mode and ignored the human input, but this would be incredibly annoying if it wasn't 100% reliable. Maybe in due time.


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## bwilson4web

The complainant, Brian Sparks, is in for a rough spell:

Does not report direct experience with what he complained about
Just passing on rumors or what he 'heard'

SHORT stock position suggests a 'screw Tesla investors' motivation
He did it for the money

California is a Tesla fanboy state and Berkeley is close to Fremont factory
Friends and neighbors will be harder to find

He 'hid' his Twitter account except from Google cache
Knows he has become a pharah

There are Tesla speed problems but blissfully ignorant, Sparks has screwed up. I recommend moving to Dixie for sympathy.

Bob Wilson


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## Klaus-rf

JasonF said:


> What might become an issue with more people buying them now is what the default factory setup will be in the future.


Does not matter.

Two pedals - one to go, the other to stop. Just like every other vehicle out there over the past 100 years or so.

[mod edit: fixed link to quoted post]


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## Klaus-rf

JasonF said:


> ... because there are so many things that can cause the engine to provide a lot of power very suddenly (vacuum leak, internal fuel leak, turbo failure, electronic throttle failure, ...


 I have never heard of nor seen a turbo *failure* making more power. They just don't work that way.


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## JWardell

Klaus-rf said:


> I have never heard of nor seen a turbo *failure* making more power. They just don't work that way.


I would say in modern cars, almost all of those problems fail safely.
Those problems existed in older cars where things were more mechanical. I remember being in the back seat when my grandfather's V8 Cadillac throttle got stuck open. All it wanted to do was take off.
Now every component, system, and software in a car is designed to fail safe and shut down. Because in a car, you can always pull over.
Now when we're designing aircraft systems, it's a different story...you definitely can't just pull over. It's amazing how much more responsibility is on a pilot's shoulders. They can redline and blow the engine if they want to, because it's better than not making it over that mountain...


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## Curt Renz

Bokonon said:


> Tesla's official blog has a statement on this topic today:
> 
> https://www.tesla.com/blog/no-unintended-acceleration-tesla-vehicles
> 
> The post doesn't present much detail beyond what we've already discussed upthread, but it's nice to see an official source lay out the facts (including the petition's origin) in a simple, straightforward manner. Content is below.
> 
> *There is no "unintended acceleration" in Tesla vehicles*
> The Tesla Team
> January 20, 2020
> 
> This petition is completely false and was brought by a Tesla short-seller. We investigate every single incident where the driver alleges to us that their vehicle accelerated contrary to their input, and in every case where we had the vehicle's data, we confirmed that the car operated as designed. In other words, the car accelerates if, and only if, the driver told it to do so, and it slows or stops when the driver applies the brake.
> 
> While accidents caused by a mistaken press of the accelerator pedal have been alleged for nearly every make/model of vehicle on the road, the accelerator pedals in Model S, X and 3 vehicles have two independent position sensors, and if there is any error, the system defaults to cut off motor torque. Likewise, applying the brake pedal simultaneously with the accelerator pedal will override the accelerator pedal input and cut off motor torque, and regardless of the torque, sustained braking will stop the car. Unique to Tesla, we also use the Autopilot sensor suite to help distinguish potential pedal misapplications and cut torque to mitigate or prevent accidents when we're confident the driver's input was unintentional. Each system is independent and records data, so we can examine exactly what happened.
> 
> We are transparent with NHTSA, and routinely review customer complaints of unintended acceleration with them. Over the past several years, we discussed with NHTSA the majority of the complaints alleged in the petition. In every case we reviewed with them, the data proved the vehicle functioned properly.


It would not be surprising if the short-selling petitioner or those among his cohort waited until Friday afternoon to alert the media, on the assumption that Tesla management and lawyers would be off for the weekend. This just as LEAPS options were expiring.

Such action also would have taken advantage of second-rate news-hungry weekend "journalists" who might unquestioningly accept the petition at face value before properly investigating the complainant, involved drivers, the NHTSA or Tesla officials.

The NHTSA would not have routinely issued a widespread news release that they were merely examining (not yet "Investigating") a petition about a situation that similarly involves all car brands, and virtually always is due to a driver stepping on the wrong pedal. Especially since they previously had Tesla check the logs of cars involved in similar claims that were proven groundless.

Here's a description of how a manipulator likely involved the media in this particular incident.






And here's one of those clueless victimized media outlets, ABC no less whose reporter found the claims ALARMING!


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## JasonF

Klaus-rf said:


> I have never heard of nor seen a turbo *failure* making more power. They just don't work that way.


They can suffer a seal failure and start dumping oil into the engine. Happens more often in turbodiesels than gasoline cars.


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## Klaus-rf

JasonF said:


> They can suffer a seal failure and start dumping oil into the engine. Happens more often in turbodiesels than gasoline cars.


 In petrol engines, that extra oil would seriously decrease power in all cases I can think of.


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## bwilson4web

TSLA at $241 mid-day after closing $510 on Friday. Sounds like the SHORT just got a wedgie.

Bob Wilson


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## Mr. Spacely

That should be $541


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## JasonF

Klaus-rf said:


> In petrol engines, that extra oil would seriously decrease power in all cases I can think of.


I can scroll back and see where this string of replies is headed. I'm terrible at playing strawman games, so I'm simply going to break it before it goes anywhere.

So I'm just going to play along and say: ok, I agree, I'm completely wrong. Teslas run away all the time, but gasoline cars never do, because EV's are new and unproven, and gasoline cars are time-tested and proven technology with perfect safety systems - especially when they come with turbos. And I'm an idiot who shouldn't be allowed to post here anymore until I'm willing to spend hours researching, and provide hard data and statistics to back up everything I say.


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## iChris93

JasonF said:


> So I'm just going to play along and say: ok, I agree, I'm completely wrong. Teslas run away all the time, but gasoline cars never do, because EV's are new and unproven, and gasoline cars are time-tested and proven technology with perfect safety systems - especially when they come with turbos. And I'm an idiot who shouldn't be allowed to post here anymore until I'm willing to spend hours researching, and provide hard data and statistics to back up everything I say.


I'm not sure all that was necessary. Pouring oil into a diesel engine will definitely cause a run away. In a gasoline engine, it probably would not. I think that is all @Klaus-rf was saying. I prefer EVs.


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## Klaus-rf

VoltageDrop said:


> ......shorting a stock should not be allowed....you SHOULD NOT be able to "trade" stocks that are not yours to do so.....BS to say the least.....


 I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say that I suspect you're not an options trader.


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