# Lucid Air Reveal, 2020-09-09



## garsh (Apr 4, 2016)

Starting at 7pm EDT / 4pm PDT

https://www.lucidmotors.com/


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## TrevP (Oct 20, 2015)

Watching it now. Exciting to see another REAL EV company launch a beautiful car


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## Jasonh4451 (Apr 11, 2017)

A bit conflicted here. The tech seems impressive but so much of it seems like its chasing Tesla. Of course now they actually have to deliver and we’ve seen how hard that is. 

To each their own but I find the exterior design lacking something. It reminds me of the big American luxo boxes of the 90s. The Model S is such a beautiful, classic and iconic design to my eyes.

Ultimately with all the new EVs coming from Polestar, Rivian, Lucid, VW, Audi, Jaguar, etc. its not Tesla that needs to be concerned. Plenty of market to take from ICE and hopefully not too long until there’s an EV choice for everyone’s taste.


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## TrevP (Oct 20, 2015)

Jasonh4451 said:


> A bit conflicted here. The tech seems impressive but so much of it seems like its chasing Tesla. Of course now they actually have to deliver and we've seen how hard that is.
> 
> To each their own but I find the exterior design lacking something. It reminds me of the big American luxo boxes of the 90s. The Model S is such a beautiful, classic and iconic design to my eyes.
> 
> Ultimately with all the new EVs coming from Polestar, Rivian, Lucid, VW, Audi, Jaguar, etc. its not Tesla that needs to be concerned. Plenty of market to take from ICE and hopefully not too long until there's an EV choice for everyone's taste.


But you also have to remember that Lucid is starting from nothing, just like Tesla did so the correct move is to start at the top of the market, the luxury segment, because that's where the high margins are. Then work your way down the scale.


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## JasonF (Oct 26, 2018)

I would add this to what @TrevP said:

People who buy luxury supercars are fickle. They buy whatever brand is new or in fashion at the moment. Even before the Model 3 came out, Tesla had been at the top of the in-fashion list for quite a while, and they were destined to be bumped from it someday. Usually when supercar makers are no longer fashionable or new, they just dissolve and disappear. Fortunately Tesla decided to accept the inevitability of falling out of favor with supercar buyers, and aim itself firmly at the mass market before that happened.

So basically, Lucid is trying to take Tesla's place as the fashionable EV supercar of the moment. They don't care about the Model 3, Model Y, or Cybertruck - they want the Model S and Model X customers.

What will be interesting to see in the future is when the budget carmakers like Kia, Toyota, GM, Ford all start flooding the market with their EV's. Will Tesla go head to head with them? They might have to, because just above that level, companies like Lucid, BMW, Volkswagen, Porsche, and Mercedes will be hovering and chipping away at their mid-luxury market. Those companies have very loyal customers, while the budget carmakers' customers are more likely to be enticed to try another brand.


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## shareef777 (Mar 10, 2019)

I’ll reserve judgement till they’re actually out in the street, but watching the reveal video on YouTube and the first 10 MINUTES was just the ocean! What’s that about!!!?


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## bwilson4web (Mar 4, 2019)

It looks like a nice car ... I would not turn it down if someone gave me one. But I would keep my Model 3 and BMW i3-REx.

Bob Wilson


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## garsh (Apr 4, 2016)

Jasonh4451 said:


> A bit conflicted here. The tech seems impressive but so much of it seems like its chasing Tesla. Of course now they actually have to deliver and we've seen how hard that is.


The hardest part of "chasing Tesla" is matching their technology. No current EV comes close to matching Tesla's technology. But what Lucid presented last night seems to match and even exceed some of Tesla's technology, which is a great accomplishment. Hopefully what they launch in 2021 really does match the specs they've given - I see no reason why it won't. If it does, this will eat into some S sales, but moreso it will further kick BMW/Mercedes/Audi out of the high-end luxury field.

More importantly, Lucid seems to be spending a lot of time on the "luxury details" of the interior. This is Tesla's "achilles heel". Their interiors are now decent (better than they used to be), but still simple. People who are spending $100k+ often want luxury to go along with their technology. It sounds like Lucid is concentrating on offering that in a big way that the Model S and X do not.


> To each their own but I find the exterior design lacking something. It reminds me of the big American luxo boxes of the 90s. The Model S is such a beautiful, classic and iconic design to my eyes.


I didn't care for it when I first saw the renders, but it has grown on me. I prefer cars with simple lines, and the Lucid Air seems to follow that philosophy in the name of aerodynamics, so that's good. It's definitely unique - you won't mistake it for some other vehicle.


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## garsh (Apr 4, 2016)

JasonF said:


> Fortunately Tesla decided to accept the inevitability of falling out of favor with supercar buyers, and aim itself firmly at the mass market before that happened.


Tesla never wanted to be a creator of luxury vehicles. The goal was always to improve tech & decrease costs to produce cheaper, mass-market vehicles. I guess it makes sense that they never really bothered to worry much about the lack of luxury amenities in the S and X interior.

The S & X served their purpose. Tesla only continues to produce them for sentimental reasons. If Lucid manages to steal all of the Model S potential sales, I don't think Tesla would worry much about it. They're all-in on higher-volume vehicles like 3, Y, CT, and Semi now.



> What will be interesting to see in the future is when the budget carmakers like Kia, Toyota, GM, Ford all start flooding the market with their EV's.


Not a single one of those companies can produce a compelling EV. The best thing that they've produced is the Chevy Bolt - a little econobox priced like a luxury sedan. Tesla will continue to drive down costs and price them out of the market if they don't start innovating and taking the EV market seriously.

I think we're more likely to see these existing car manufacturers start bidding wars for various EV companies like Rivian and Bollinger, and even Lucid.


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## shareef777 (Mar 10, 2019)

garsh said:


> More importantly, Lucid seems to be spending a lot of time on the "luxury details" of the interior. This is Tesla's "achilles heel". Their interiors are now decent (better than they used to be), but still simple. People who are spending $100k+ often want luxury to go along with their technology. It sounds like Lucid is concentrating on offering that in a big way that the Model S and X do not.


THIS. When my cousin picked up his loaded X I was dumbfounded at the lack of luxury. Auto open doors was really the only thing that stood out. Everything else was meh. Even the tech was dated (compared to the 3 at half the price).

But I'm not 100% sold on Lucid (or Rivian, or any other startup looking to come out the gates blazing). Tesla took a decade plus to get where they are. Their first cars were extremely basic (roadster and first S). I mean the S didn't even come with a center console when it first came out!


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## garsh (Apr 4, 2016)

shareef777 said:


> But I'm not 100% sold on Lucid (or Rivian, or any other startup looking to come out the gates blazing). Tesla took a decade plus to get where they are. Their first cars were extremely basic (roadster and first S). I mean the S didn't even come with a center console when it first came out!


As long as Lucid's technology is as good as the claims, then Lucid should be fine. That's the hard part. Luxury is actually fairly easy to get right as long as you're not trying to keep prices & costs down.


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## TrevP (Oct 20, 2015)

It's been long-rumoured that Tesla has been working on an interior refresh of the Model S/X (we all know who got that scoop) but the runup of Model 3 production consumed all of their resources so I think it got pushed back. Plaid Model S is coming by the end of this year so I think that's the perfect time to introduce it. Maybe they spent time between then and now refining it? Who knows but if anything Lucid's interior should push Tesla to be better in that regards


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## garsh (Apr 4, 2016)

Using 350kW chargers, the Air will gain 300 miles of range in 20 minutes.
That's incredible. This is only twice as long as it takes to fill a gas tank for 300 miles.


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## JasonF (Oct 26, 2018)

garsh said:


> Not a single one of those companies can produce a compelling EV. The best thing that they've produced is the Chevy Bolt - a little econobox priced like a luxury sedan. Tesla will continue to drive down costs and price them out of the market if they don't start innovating and taking the EV market seriously.


Compelling...no. They don't really produce compelling gas vehicles, either. Where they do win in the market is they dominate the "I just want something to get from A to B" market. People who just want "a car", don't want to pay a lot for it, and don't care. Those people probably won't buy a Tesla anyhow, and probably won't go EV until Kia makes one for a bargain basement price.

What I meant by Tesla taking them on, though, is there is also quite a large segment of people who can't quite afford the current Tesla pricing, but there's nothing really compelling in between that and a Kia or Toyota, so they end up settling on a budget model. That might be the ideal segment for Tesla to aim for - once they can bring the battery cost down, that is - because that segment is _currently not occupied_. And eventually the segment where the 3 and Y are now is going to become more crowded by brands that carry a lot of customer loyalty (BMW, Porsche, Mercedes, Volkswagen, etc).


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## SP's Tesla (Nov 6, 2019)

Not personally a fan of the design of the car, but I appreciate another EV maker bringing their product to market. In the end, the competition will be good for everyone. 

I do like the dash though! While I appreciate the minimalist interior of the Tesla, the engineer in me loves buttons and gauges! 

Sean


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## bwilson4web (Mar 4, 2019)

Source:





good - designed for manufacturing (aka, "mass production")
OK - 1,001 employees, right sized for current effort pre-manufacturing
good - green field factory 
poor - physical separation between CA engineering and AZ manufacturing facilities
not happy - too much 'eye candy' in video dilutes facts and data
OK - accelerate EV a limited scope (i.e., ignored charging network and broader energy)
excellent - dense, small drivetrain
poor - trunk width seems squeezed, prefer conformal wheel well
good - optional rear 'executive' back seats or standard bench seats
unknown - range of front seat motion such as seat back tilt back (can wife cat-nap?)
not happy - more 'eye candy' California tour
OK - tactile controls for the 'legacy' car owners
OK - App trip planning
OK - HVAC is good but legacy owners may 'Jones' for physical controls (or lied about Tesla)
not happy - steering link overhangs front tires, limits diameter
excellent - focus on drivetrain efficiency
unknown - some battery renderings show rear passenger well yet others do not
OK - 900 V pack reduces (I**2)*R loss, smaller diameter power cables
excellent - race tested, drivetrain technology (no Pikes Peak climb?)
excellent - motor comparisons


















OK - HVAC dual ducts
excellent - ethernet network control buss with redundant paths
OK - large number of sensors: 2-radar, optical, LIDAR, ultrasonic, driver monitor
excellent - efficient LED headlights with optics (dynamic?)
excellent - 924 V power buss
excellent - vunder box, bidirectional and car-to-car (Cannonball run!)
excellent - home/business/utility battery power systems
OK - partner with Electrify America (a work in progress)
OK - green field factory but separated from engineering
excellent - manufacturing quality first then speed it up
OK - sales with online and stores and build to customer specs










unknown - the battery recess for rear passenger floorboard
good - claim 17% more efficient than nearest competitor
The video then went into a Q&A. I'm auditing it but so far, nothing unique.

Bob Wilson


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## M3OC Rules (Nov 18, 2016)

I'm always amazed at how much efficiency Tesla keeps squeezing out of what seems like the same car but if Lucid's claim is true it looks like Tesla can keep on squeezing.


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## garsh (Apr 4, 2016)

The Lucid Air appears to have a set of auxiliary brake/tail lights that can work when the trunk is open.
I see two clear lenses just below the trunk opening (screengrab is from the 8m mark of the reveal video).










This is similar to the solution that the Audi Q5 has



garsh said:


> Tesla wouldn't be the first company to have the primary brake lights & turn signals on a movable surface, plus a secondary light/signal in case that movable surface is... moved.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## GDN (Oct 30, 2017)

Possibly before tonight, but they are on the air with commercials. Saw one tonight during the Orange Bowl on ESPN.


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## FRC (Aug 4, 2018)

I also noticed that commercial @GDN. It is the first one I've seen, although Lucid's configurator has been open online for some months now.
I wonder if this is an indication that their pre-order numbers are lower than they had hoped/expected? I get communication from Lucid by e-mail fairly regularly, and honestly it's an intriguing car that might be of interest to me if they had a charging network. Just in case I ever wanted to go on a road trip.


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## iChris93 (Feb 3, 2017)

FRC said:


> Just in case I ever wanted to go on a road trip.


That doesn't sound like you


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## GDN (Oct 30, 2017)

You note an interesting tidbit, what if Lucid is the one about to begin using Tesla's charging network? This could be a game changer for Lucid and some nice competition. I think Tesla should welcome that.

I have to say at this point there isn't another EV I'd even consider other than Tesla, because of the charging network, but truly this is a sharp looking car, let it have access to the network and that could give them a huge bump, and income for Tesla.


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## GDN (Oct 30, 2017)

OK- Nevermind. I just got back from their website, which I had not been too. This car is in a different class than I would drive. It's nice looking, but seems they are trying to hit the "luxury" that Tesla doesn't really have. Their pictures show some nice colors and interiors and many will pay for that. However, starting price is $95K to get an AWD, 20" wheels with the upgraded stereo and Level 3 future ready hardware. I can pick all of that up at Tesla for under $60K.

Maybe they are really targeting the S and I'm OK with that, but this could be a tough road for them.


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## garsh (Apr 4, 2016)

GDN said:


> Maybe they are really targeting the S and I'm OK with that, but this could be a tough road for them.


 If you watch the reveal, or spend more time on their website, it'll become clear that they're really targeting the luxury segment hard. People won't be cross-shopping a Lucid Air with a Model 3 or BMW 3-series. I think they'll do very well in their segment.


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## GDN (Oct 30, 2017)

Lucid may be one of the next public EV companies, like FF, through a special acquisition company -https://www.yahoo.com/finance/news/lucid-motors-talks-list-via-183354870.html


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## FRC (Aug 4, 2018)

Just got an email from Lucid. Their EPA numbers are in, and incredibly, the Lucid Air long range has a rated range of 520 miles. 520!! 100 miles more than Tesla. How big is that battery? And what battery technology are they using? This is an interesting product, but without a well-defined supercharger network, it won't work for me.


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## shareef777 (Mar 10, 2019)

FRC said:


> Just got an email from Lucid. Their EPA numbers are in, and incredibly, the Lucid Air long range has a rated range of 520 miles. 520!! 100 miles more than Tesla. How big is that battery? And what battery technology are they using? This is an interesting product, but without a well-defined supercharger network, it won't work for me.


Report is the battery pack is 118kWH. Seems dubious as that would put it at a burn rate of ~220wH/mi, more efficient than even the 3.

Article on the Lucid Air. Explains the higher voltage it runs on as contributing to the over-all greater efficiency.

https://www.forbes.com/wheels/news/lucid-air-500-mile-range/


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## JWardell (May 9, 2016)

Frankly I take all EPA ratings with a grain of salt. Always wait until Out Of Spec does a 70mph range test to compare apples to apples.


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## FRC (Aug 4, 2018)

JWardell said:


> Frankly I take all EPA ratings with a grain of salt. Always wait until Out Of Spec does a 70mph range test to compare apples to apples.


Aren't EPA range ratings specifically intended as a way to compare apples to apples? If they aren't, in fact, somewhat reliable for this purpose then they are truly worthless. We certainly know that they are unreliable as a gauge of expected real-world range.


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## JWardell (May 9, 2016)

FRC said:


> Aren't EPA range ratings specifically intended as a way to compare apples to apples? If they aren't, in fact, somewhat reliable for this purpose then they are truly worthless. We certainly know that they are unreliable as a gauge of expected real-world range.


EPA ranges are completely simulated, in a non-real-life drive cycle, and manufacturers have the freedom to apply a very large correction factor. They're next to useless for gauging real life range, as well as for comparing different brands.

See the 70mph range test results here, and you can see how certain manufacturers skew their EPA ratings:
https://insideevs.com/reviews/443791/ev-range-test-results/


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## JasonF (Oct 26, 2018)

JWardell said:


> Frankly I take all EPA ratings with a grain of salt. Always wait until Out Of Spec does a 70mph range test to compare apples to apples.


Keep in mind also that Tesla already had its cars fully developed and out before the EPA even came up with its current rating system, and therefore didn't have time to optimize their cars for testing. Lucid had plenty of time to do so. That also means the Tesla ratings are _actual real world testing, _while Lucid likely isn't.

I'm also now even less confident in the tests since I've gone to their web site and saw that it's full of misleading information.

But even if I'm wrong about all of that, considering the Lucid products are priced well above half of Tesla's products, they should show _something _for the extra cost. If they only matched Teslas stats, I would be very disappointed.


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## shareef777 (Mar 10, 2019)

JasonF said:


> Keep in mind also that Tesla already had its cars fully developed and out before the EPA even came up with its current rating system, and therefore didn't have time to optimize their cars for testing. Lucid had plenty of time to do so. That also means the Tesla ratings are _actual real world testing, _while Lucid likely isn't.
> 
> I'm also now even less confident in the tests since I've gone to their web site and saw that it's full of misleading information.
> 
> But even if I'm wrong about all of that, considering the Lucid products are priced well above half of Tesla's products, they should show _something _for the extra cost. If they only matched Teslas stats, I would be very disappointed.


I wouldn't go so far as to call Tesla's numbers real world either. Unless the real world only consisted of 90 year old grandmas that can barely reach the accelerator 🤣


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## garsh (Apr 4, 2016)

JWardell said:


> See the 70mph range test results here, and you can see how certain manufacturers skew their EPA ratings:
> https://insideevs.com/reviews/443791/ev-range-test-results/


THANK YOU!
This data is MUCH more useful than the EPA estimates. People don't care about "range" for around-town driving. It's not like a gas car where that translates into how often you have to visit a gas stations. The only time range matters for an EV is for highway driving, and the EPA's "highway drive cycle" is terrible. All I really want to know is how far I can go at a steady highway cruising speed before I need to recharge!

I would love it if Tesla (or anyone else) would start advertising a 70mph cruising range in addition to the mandated EPA range numbers.


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## garsh (Apr 4, 2016)

FRC said:


> Aren't EPA range ratings specifically intended as a way to compare apples to apples? If they aren't, in fact, somewhat reliable for this purpose then they are truly worthless.


I always thought they were ok as a comparison number, but then Porsche came out with an EV with a 2-speed gearbox, and I believe that made the metric completely worthless for comparison. Interestingly, NOT in Porsche's favor either. Take a look at the link that JWardell provided. You can see that - unlike every other EV - their 70mph range is actually a lot better than their EPA range. And I was surprised that the Mach-E slightly beats out their EPA rating as well.


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## bwilson4web (Mar 4, 2019)

The EPA has done at least two changes between 2005 and 2019 when I traded in our Prius Prime for a Std Rng Plus Model 3. 

My experience is driving at ~63 mph will return EPA metrics provided altitude and weather effects don't force it down. However, manufacturers can 'sandbag' their estimate range, under reporting: too optimistic can and has led to EPA fines. 

Bob Wilson


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## msjulie (Feb 6, 2018)

I saw an Air around the Bay Area a month or so ago; some kind of test team driving. I haven't checked to see which car is actually larger but my sense when following then passing was it that it looked smaller than an S. I was surprised, I kinda liked the looks from the quick outside view

If it really has close to the highway range ie can it really go from San Diego to San Jose on one charge, that would be something. It has to have good highway range I think as other charging networks still don't make that trip as simple as Tesla does today. 

Unrelated but just yesterday I got an actual email survey from Tesla asking what I liked, would I suggest to others (just referred my sister for a Y!) and what they need to do better. Supercharging a strength, competition is coming and (yes) where's my Apple Car play? 

Honestly wonder what will come of any of that.


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## FRC (Aug 4, 2018)

msjulie said:


> I saw an Air around the Bay Area a month or so ago; some kind of test team driving. I haven't checked to see which car is actually larger but my sense when following then passing was it that it looked smaller than an S. I was surprised, I kinda liked the looks from the quick outside view
> 
> If it really has close to the highway range ie can it really go from San Diego to San Jose on one charge, that would be something. It has to have good highway range I think as other charging networks still don't make that trip as simple as Tesla does today.
> 
> ...


Wow! Could it be that Tesla really cares what @msjulie thinks?


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## Maxpilot (Oct 7, 2020)

My Model S Long Range Plus has EPA range of 402 which means I have to drive roughly 249wh/mile. If I use chill mode and hyper-mile, I can get that. But normal driving for me is around 285wh/mile, although my last 30 miles I averaged 264wh/mile somehow.

Lucid getting 220wh/mile is very efficient. They must have a big electro magnet in the front bumper and allow trucks in front of them to help pull them along.


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