# First Road Trip



## Jarettp (Dec 1, 2018)

Just got back from my first road trip with the M3D from DC to St Louis via I70. I gotta say, it was a very different trip than ones I've taken in the past with ICE cars. I'm going to list the good and the bad below;

*The Good*
1) First things first, NOAP made this trip EXTREMELY easy. I'm completely sold on it. 
2) I didn't have to pay a dime due to free 6 month supercharging
3) When I was driving, the car handled VERY well. I felt in control at all times.
4) Slacker and Tunein were great during the trip.
5) There are PLENTY of super chargers and I didn't run into a single one that was full.
6) Most of them were in great locations with adequate places to eat and use the facilities.
7) Car has plenty of storage. My gf and I were able to fit everything we needed (presents and all) in the trunk and frunk. We didn't even use the extra trunk space.
8) We didn't hit traffic at all with the routing. Could just be a coincidence though.
9) NOAP does surprisingly well at nighttime in the rain. It saw lanes that I had trouble seeing at times.

*The Bad*
1) Distance estimations are unreliable to say the least. Turning the heat off brought it more in line but I shouldn't have to do that to get the rated distance. People are going to end up stranded on the side of the highway unless Tesla starts taking a more conservative approach with stating how far the car can drive in cold weather. At the very least, the car should recommend not skipping an upcoming supercharger if it starts to realize you won't make it to the intended one. This does not appear to be the case though. 
2) I learned to never touch the accelerator if you have auto pilot activated at speeds higher than 80 mph. There were two times where someone next to me was driving erratically and I pressed the accelerator to get ahead of them and hit the 90 mph ceiling for auto pilot. My thoughts were that it would simply deactivate as if I grabbed the steering wheel but in reality what happens is it treats it exactly like you haven't touched the wheel after the repeated prompts. It beeped very loud at me, told me to grab the steering wheel and I was banned from using it until I made it to my next recharge point. This was VERY annoying as one of these instances occurred an hour and a half away from where i was stopping. There HAS to be a better way of handling people who go over 90 mph briefly for safety reasons. Yes I could just deactivate it and do it (which I will attempt to for now on) but it's very easy to forget to do this before hitting the accelerator when your car is in danger of being hit by someone who can't stay in their lane.
3) The hotel I stayed at has two destination chargers but they were both ICEd and the front desk attendant had no idea what a Tesla was. I ended up parking in the pedestrian pathway next to the charger which allowed me to reach my car. Tesla needs to make these hotels sign some contracts or something to keep people out of these spots. What if I got there on E? 
4) Phantom breaking was an issue. Almost always happened as my car was about to pass an 18 wheeler. This is VERY dangerous and needs to be fixed ASAP. This issue also occurs if cars are merging onto the highway ahead of you. Someone is going to get rear ended badly one day if they can't develop a more natural response to cars merging onto the highway. I ended up having to take over whenever I saw these situations possibly happening.
5) There were some remnants of snow on the highway in PA. It getting caked onto the front of the car disabled auto pilot. 
6) Auto wipers are TERRIBLE. Whoever programmed them should be fired. They are always wiping too slowly for the situation. I would rather it be on at full speed unnecessarily than to be off when I need it on...Especially at night time. Also, every wipe seems to be at a different speed/interval. This is extremely distracting. Here's a quick bit of programming they should consider. If raining AND night time THEN set wipers to constant wiping. There is never a need for interval wiping at night time. 
7) The clunking sound the car makes while supercharging makes it almost impossible to nap in the car.
8) Car needs to slow itself down on certain curves on the highway. Taking everything at the set speed is dangerous.

Overall, it was a really good trip and has me excited for future ones. A lot of what I like about the car will get better with updates along with what I don't like. But one thing is for sure, I'll take this car and its quirks over driving an ICE car manually ever again any day.


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## Ed Woodrick (May 26, 2018)

Just got back from my first road trip with the M3D from DC to St Louis via I70. I gotta say, it was a very different trip than ones I've taken in the past with ICE cars. I'm going to list the good and the bad below;

*The Bad*
1) Distance estimations are unreliable to say the least. Turning the heat off brought it more in line but I shouldn't have to do that to get the rated distance. People are going to end up stranded on the side of the highway unless Tesla starts taking a more conservative approach with stating how far the car can drive in cold weather. At the very least, the car should recommend not skipping an upcoming supercharger if it starts to realize you won't make it to the intended one. This does not appear to be the case though.

Don't depend on the range estimate near the speed limit, use the Energy Graphs for closer to accurate information. It's Winter, you are driving in the North range isn't your friend. Things will be better once spring arrives.

2) I learned to never touch the accelerator if you have auto pilot activated at speeds higher than 80 mph. There were two times where someone next to me was driving erratically and I pressed the accelerator to get ahead of them and hit the 90 mph ceiling for auto pilot. My thoughts were that it would simply deactivate as if I grabbed the steering wheel but in reality what happens is it treats it exactly like you haven't touched the wheel after the repeated prompts. It beeped very loud at me, told me to grab the steering wheel and I was banned from using it until I made it to my next recharge point. This was VERY annoying as one of these instances occurred an hour and a half away from where i was stopping. There HAS to be a better way of handling people who go over 90 mph briefly for safety reasons. Yes I could just deactivate it and do it (which I will attempt to for now on) but it's very easy to forget to do this before hitting the accelerator when your car is in danger of being hit by someone who can't stay in their lane.

Yep, you'll hit the limit quickly. Oh, yea, you also just explained why your range was terrible, 80 mph in the winter will probably result in losing 50% of your range. 
You aren't going to EVER find a police office or a judge that will agree with going over 90 for safety reasons, never!
By the way, when going speeds higher than 80 mph, it's not the car next to you driving erratically. 

3) The hotel I stayed at has two destination chargers but they were both ICEd and the front desk attendant had no idea what a Tesla was. I ended up parking in the pedestrian pathway next to the charger which allowed me to reach my car. Tesla needs to make these hotels sign some contracts or something to keep people out of these spots. What if I got there on E?

A hotel providing a charger is a convenience, not a right. Generally talking to a manager, being nice, and asking if they have a way of contact the owner and providing a cone to block it while you aren't in it are options. If you get there on empty, that's your fault depending on something that is known to be unreliable. Tesla doesn't own destination chargers, they are provided, at the hotel's expense, to patrons. 

4) Phantom breaking was an issue. Almost always happened as my car was about to pass an 18 wheeler. This is VERY dangerous and needs to be fixed ASAP. This issue also occurs if cars are merging onto the highway ahead of you. Someone is going to get rear ended badly one day if they can't develop a more natural response to cars merging onto the highway. I ended up having to take over whenever I saw these situations possibly happening.

Yep, it's beta, not perfect. It's up to you to make sure that the car and passengers are safe.

5) There were some remnants of snow on the highway in PA. It getting caked onto the front of the car disabled auto pilot.
6) Auto wipers are TERRIBLE. Whoever programmed them should be fired. They are always wiping too slowly for the situation. I would rather it be on at full speed unnecessarily than to be off when I need it on...Especially at night time. Also, every wipe seems to be at a different speed/interval. This is extremely distracting. Here's a quick bit of programming they should consider. If raining AND night time THEN set wipers to constant wiping. There is never a need for interval wiping at night time.

They are adaptive wipers. They can operate at different speeds, that's by design. While insufficient for some people, they are sufficient for others. If you don't like them, you have the option to turn on manually. There should be a software update that will change the behavior soon.

7) The clunking sound the car makes while supercharging makes it almost impossible to nap in the car.
Bummer

8) Car needs to slow itself down on certain curves on the highway. Taking everything at the set speed is dangerous.
This has been changing with updates. It DOES slow down. On my drive home yesterday, on some relatively curvy roads, it performed quite well, slowing as needed. Just 3 months ago the car wouldn't have been able to handle it and would beep off.

Overall, it was a really good trip and has me excited for future ones. A lot of what I like about the car will get better with updates along with what I don't like. But one thing is for sure, I'll take this car and its quirks over driving an ICE car manually ever again any day.

Remember, only one issue that you posted was related to an EV. All the remaining were self driving. And my 2018 Leaf does that.


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## kort677 (Sep 17, 2018)

Jarettp said:


> Just got back from my first road trip with the M3D from DC to St Louis via I70. I gotta say, it was a very different trip than ones I've taken in the past with ICE cars. I'm going to list the good and the bad below;
> 
> *The Bad*
> 1) Distance estimations are unreliable to say the least. Turning the heat off brought it more in line but I shouldn't have to do that to get the rated distance. People are going to end up stranded on the side of the highway unless Tesla starts taking a more conservative approach with stating how far the car can drive in cold weather. At the very least, the car should recommend not skipping an upcoming supercharger if it starts to realize you won't make it to the intended one. This does not appear to be the case though.


the distances in the trip graph are spot on


Jarettp said:


> 2) I pressed the accelerator to get ahead of them and hit the 90 mph ceiling for auto pilot.


yes that's a tough one, you need to stop and put the car into park to get out of the penalty box. 


Jarettp said:


> 3) The hotel I stayed at has two destination chargers but they were both ICEd and the front desk attendant had no idea what a Tesla was. I ended up parking in the pedestrian pathway next to the charger which allowed me to reach my car. Tesla needs to make these hotels sign some contracts or something to keep people out of these spots. What if I got there on E?


that's a tough one to expect any property owner to monitor, some localities are putting laws into place regarding ICIng, this is just ignorance on the part of the ICE driver.


Jarettp said:


> 4) Phantom breaking was an issue. Almost always happened as my car was about to pass an 18 wheeler. This is VERY dangerous and needs to be fixed ASAP. This issue also occurs if cars are merging onto the highway ahead of you. Someone is going to get rear ended badly one day if they can't develop a more natural response to cars merging onto the highway. I ended up having to take over whenever I saw these situations possibly happening.


I haven't experienced full on braking like this in my 3 , my S would occasionally see ghosts give an audio warning and the red screen of death but never a hard stop


Jarettp said:


> 7) The clunking sound the car makes while supercharging makes it almost impossible to nap in the car.


others have mentioned it and I've only been to a SpC 2x with my 3 and have never heard this clunking.


Jarettp said:


> 8) Car needs to slow itself down on certain curves on the highway. Taking everything at the set speed is dangerous.


that's on you, what sort of road did this happen on?


Jarettp said:


> Overall, it was a really good trip and has me excited for future ones. A lot of what I like about the car will get better with updates along with what I don't like. But one thing is for sure, I'll take this car and its quirks over driving an ICE car manually ever again any day.


glad to see that you had a nice trip, and yes there are many quirks, this is part of the tesla experience


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## Michael Russo (Oct 15, 2016)

Nice summary.

One comment on those instances where you need to accelerate when on AP. Once you know what happens when you do accelerate when AP is on, all you need to do is brush on the brake pedal briefly to disconnect then floor the car... 

It has happened to me, you can do it in a split second and it does wonders...


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## Jarettp (Dec 1, 2018)

@Ed Woodrick just curious, what exactly WOULD you consider as being on Tesla at not the user? There are no in depth instruction manuals on how AP handles certain situations. "Be ready to take over" isn't enough when the car hard breaks in the middle of the highway for absolutely no reason at all. God forbid I post some complaints on this forum along with my compliments.


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## Jarettp (Dec 1, 2018)

Michael Russo said:


> Nice summary.
> 
> One comment on those instances where you need to accelerate when on AP. Once you know what happens when you do accelerate when AP is on, all you need to do is brush on the brake pedal briefly to disconnect then floor the car...
> 
> It has happened to me, you can do it in a split second and it does wonders...


Yeah, that will likely be what I do moving forward. Ultimately them handling that situation differently would be the better answer though. Completely locking someone out until they park is a bit drastic.


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## Michael Russo (Oct 15, 2016)

Jarettp said:


> Yeah, that will likely be what I do moving forward. Ultimately them handling that situation differently would be the better answer though. Completely locking someone out until they park is a bit drastic.


I hear you. On the other hand, everything is being done so that AP remains super safe. 
And making a quick stop and go goes faster than changing wheels on a F1 pit stop...


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## Wooloomooloo (Oct 29, 2017)

Thanks for posting your experiences - I’m in the middle of a monster road trip too.

The EAP does do some very strange things occasionally, and when you’re driving 1000+ miles in a few days, you notice them more and some are quite scary. Over the last few days, I’ve had the usual phantom braking (which is really just a lift off the accelerator and full regen kicking in) occur 4 or 5 times. But two things occurred that were worse than that.

One was a sudden turn towards a barrier on a small bridge. The car was on EAP and the road shifted from black to a white color as we went over a small bridge. This was at highway speeds with two lanes separated by a median. As we hit the bridge, the car made a sudden turn to the right towards a concrete barrier between the road and the side of the bridge. My hand was of course on the wheel and I corrected disabling EAP. It was so severe my wife asked me what had happened.

The second was an auto lane change that got abandoned. Trucks were entering the highway on the right (again two lanes) and so I signaled to move into the left lane and the car started to move. Nothing at all was in the left lane. As it was about half way through their maneuver the EAP bleeped and it tried to move back into the right lane just as a car was pulling into that lane from the ramp. Again I took over and it was fine, but again I had some explaining to do because my driving style rarely if ever requires me to make sudden changes in direction or lane changes.

I’d say on balance that driving with EAP is a lot less tiring and stressful than without, but there’s a different kind of ‘stress’ supervising the computer’s driving, Vs being in full control yourself. I’ve done over 3,000 miles in the last week, I’d say at least 1,800 on EAP. I trust it less at night and in the rain (different from the OP!)


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## Jarettp (Dec 1, 2018)

@Wooloomooloo i had the lane changing issues a few times as well. What's worse is when it keeps trying and failing. Makes you look drunk or something. And night time plus rain is only an issue for me when trucks are kicking up water. Had my car try to steer into an 18 wheeler as a result. I usually take over when passing a truck in the rain now.


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## MelindaV (Apr 2, 2016)

Jarettp said:


> 2) I learned to never touch the accelerator if you have auto pilot activated at speeds higher than 80 mph.





Michael Russo said:


> Once you know what happens when you do accelerate when AP is on, all you need to do is brush on the brake pedal briefly to disconnect then floor the car...


@Michael Russo - in the Model 3, even easier to tap up on the AP lever to disengage EAP/TACC and at the same time put your foot on the accelerator. no need to tap the brakes. (maybe in your S it is easier to hit the brake than disengage with the lever, but that has not been my experience in the 3).

@Jarettp - sounds line an overall excellent way to get to know the new car! glad you had a good road trip and thanks for sharing your experiences


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## Bigriver (Jan 26, 2018)

Jarettp said:


> Distance estimations are unreliable to say the least....At the very least, the car should recommend not skipping an upcoming supercharger if it starts to realize you won't make it to the intended one.


On our Christmas road trip, Tesla navigation surprised me with suggesting our first SC stop be the one I had hoped to make it to, but also knew it was probably a bit too far for a winter day. It quickly realized that too, but instead of adding in another recommended stop (there were several options) it quickly started telling me to slow down. I was going only a few mph over the speed limit, and it kept suggesting slower and slower. This went on for a couple of hours. It did end up recommending an earlier SC, but I was surprised how reluctant it seemed to change the plan.

On the return trip, however, the Tesla plan was spot on. We got to each stop within a few % SOC that it predicted, I was happy with the length of SC'ing it suggested, and we arrived home within minutes of the original ETA. I was really impressed.

On phantom braking - oh yes, such a potential safety issue. It has gotten better though. I don't experience it as often or severe as it was a year ago. My worst experience was with someone who thought I had done it on purpose and road rage (from him) ensued. For a few miles I started formulating plans of whether there was a safe place to stop or whether it warranted a 911 call. I've thought of putting a sign in my back window saying that tailgating is dangerous, and tailgating a Tesla is REALLY dangerous.

Anyway, thanks for your excellent summary. So much to love and so much to look forward to the improvements to come.


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## Penny’s Model <3 (Sep 30, 2018)

My first road trip was last weekend. I was surprised the nav suggested we stop at a SC only after one hour. I had charged to 100 for the first time — 90 overnight and the last bit in the morning just before takeoff. We overruled that and hit another one an hour away. The Thousand Oaks SC has lots of great places to eat and things to do. 

We had an event-free trip that day and stayed at a hotel with a destination charger. That was GREAT as the next hotel didn’t have one (didn’t even have a plug and looked mystified when I asked about electric vehicles — all of 1 mile from the Apple campus in Cupertino!). The SCs in Silicon Valley we’re pretty busy (I thought South OC was Tesla center of the world, but NO! Seemed like every other car was a Tesla in Silicon Valley). Everyone was really nice, but I still like the convenience of a destination charger. Will never stay in a hotel without one again. 

When we were going through Santa Barbara that first day, the nav detoured is through Chumash Highway. It was not only beautiful, the detour didn’t cost us battery drain and was probably faster for reasons we don’t know. 

The way home, we did it in a single day (2 stops to supercharge) and loved the Kettleman City SC. We counted four carriers of Model 3s on the way home. We had no range anxiety ever.


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## ADK46 (Aug 4, 2018)

Perhaps we should distinguish among different kinds of automatic braking. In this thread, I think we're talking about overly abrupt speed adjustment to a change in following distance. Apparently, Tesla engineers have never been rear-ended and have no fear of stabbing the brakes at any time. The stereotypical engineer has limited social skills, too (note: I am an engineer - proof!). I think the problem is that the system sees no problem ... no problem ... no problem ... then holy crap! A car is in my lane! The system is not sophisticated enough to see a developing problem. I"m not sure there's any logic or neural net in place that says to the car "See that car up there? It's in a merge lane - it _will_ be moving into your lane, start adjusting now".

I think we're also talking about a mistake I often make: There's a certain distance I normally begin moving over when overtaking a car. If I have the separation distance set greater than that, the car will slow just before, or as, I'm moving over. The surprise stems from the separation distance being in effect until I've fully left the lane, not when I start to leave it. Plus, my standard steady-state following distance is set generously (I do have the social skills to know that tailgating is rude.)

I have another car with adaptive cruise control. The Tesla behaves better than it does, for which I am grateful. I am also grateful that as the young Tesla engineers mature and learn to drive better, they will program auto-pilot to drive with more sophistication. My other car will never improve.

In other discussions about automatic braking, "phantom braking" means braking when there is nothing to brake for - hence the word "phantom" - and most often is referring to _emergency_ automatic braking. That's a much more serious problem to anyone behind you. There have been some reports of this happening in Model 3s in narrow streets, at low speeds.

There is definitely a problem with "phantom lane change cancellation". I've experienced it many times. Most recently, right in front of a state trooper. I thought he might pull me over for erratic driving. In fact, he should have. I'm rehearsing an explanation for when I am stopped.


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## FRC (Aug 4, 2018)

ADK46 said:


> Plus, my standard steady-state following distance is set generously (I do have the social skills to know that tailgating is rude.)


Have you tried follow setting 1? I have gradually worked my way to 1 in my 8K miles. I started at 6, I think, but that caused too much interference from cars pulling into the gap. I find that the car behaves much more normally at the 1 interval. Which, by the way, is not 1 car length but is probably time related as it varies relative to your speed. It also is not tailgatish, although it follows a bit closer than I would without TACC, but not uncomfortably close.


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## ADK46 (Aug 4, 2018)

FRC said:


> Have you tried follow setting 1? .... It also is not tailgatish, although it follows a bit closer than I would without TACC, but not uncomfortably close.


Uncomfortable for whom? I think I would be very uncomfortable being followed that closely. But I don't live in a congested area.


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## FRC (Aug 4, 2018)

ADK46 said:


> Uncomfortable for whom? I think I would be very uncomfortable being followed that closely. But I don't live in a congested area.


The question was ...Have you tried it? If the 1 setting is uncomfortable, then back off, but don't knock it til you try it.


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## ADK46 (Aug 4, 2018)

FRC said:


> The question was ...Have you tried it? If the 1 setting is uncomfortable, then back off, but don't knock it til you try it.


But you see, to judge it I'd have to ask the person I'm following if I was making him/her uncomfortable. Whether _I_ feel uncomfortable is irrelevant. Being tailgated means you are being put at risk. As I was on a certain morning in 1987 on I-275 in Cincinnati.....

I've adjusted following distance, of course. Standards vary, but #1 is far too short in my area for routine use.


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## MelindaV (Apr 2, 2016)

do you all typically set a specific follow distance and keep it there? 
I move mine in/out constantly depending on speed. 1 is totally comfortable and feels nearly the same as 7 in stop and go traffic, but will move to 3 or so at 40 or 50 and 6 or 7 above 50. also change the follow distance (or totally disable EAP/TACC) depending on merging traffic or other various types of congestion.


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## ADK46 (Aug 4, 2018)

I adjust mine all the time. I move it long when I intend to follow someone rather than do a bunch of lane changing in traffic. I don’t mean rush hour stop and go type traffic, where you really can’t be inviting too many cars into a gap - some yes, a lot, no. But I rarely get into that unles I drive an hour towards civilization.

Sometimes someone you’re following doesn’t understand you want them to move out of the way if you’re too polite. I have to shorten up to send the message.

It’s especially important not to follow unnecessarily closely at night. No one likes headlights in their mirrors, particularly people of my age with impending cataracts.

Another fine point some don’t get: when the road is wet, especially salty wet, don’t pull back into the lane after passing a car too quickly - don’t spray them.

Then there are those who pull back in so quickly it activates braking from your adaptive cruise control. Grrrr.

If you like pet peeves, I got more!


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## FRC (Aug 4, 2018)

I've gotten to where I leave it at 1, always. I generally drive 65 or so on the interstates and a 1 setting follows at about 5 car lengths, as I said above, a bit closer than I'm accustomed to but w/TACC I'm comfortable with it and it's at least double the interval of most drivers around here.


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## FRC (Aug 4, 2018)

I've gotten to where I leave it at 1, always. I generally drive 65 or so on the interstates and a 1 setting follows at about 5 car lengths, as I said above, a bit closer than I'm accustomed to but w/TACC I'm comfortable with it and it's at least double the interval of most drivers around here.


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## MelindaV (Apr 2, 2016)

FRC said:


> I've gotten to where I leave it at 1, always. I generally drive 65 or so on the interstates and a 1 setting follows at about 5 car lengths, as I said above, a bit closer than I'm accustomed to but w/TACC I'm comfortable with it and it's at least double the interval of most drivers around here.


maybe I follow the rules too closely, but still go with the 1 car length per 10mph I was told when in drivers ed many years ago, so 5 car lengths at 65 is too close for me.


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## FRC (Aug 4, 2018)

MelindaV said:


> maybe I follow the rules too closely, but still go with the 1 car length per 10mph I was told when in drivers ed many years ago, so 5 car lengths at 65 is too close for me.


OK, Mom. I'll set it to 2.


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## Nom (Oct 30, 2018)

First longer trip in the bag. Overall, loving it, still. 

Pros: 
- Acceleration makes it so simple to get into the slots you need in order to pass when desired. Considerately of course.
- Radio stands out. Sounds great. Enjoying slacker, or whatever it is, have some good stations at this point. 
- Seats are very comfortable. Plenty of room in the back for 2 and even for 3 when we had an extra guest.
- Had a dog in the car, I'll need to inspect but I don't think he messed up anything with the seats ... meaning the seat plether seems pretty resilient.
-Friends and family got a big kick out of it. 
-Got to try some superchargers .... LOVE the 450+ miles/hr charge rates!! Thanks to reading these forums, I knew to use them when less than 40% charge (and much lower) to get the best out of the charge rate.
-Very happy to see the number of supercharger options I had. Never had any issues with overcrowding. 
-Heat works well - barely need to have it on (level 1 fan) and the car is quite warm.
-Love the big screen for navigation. 
-For the hookup I had at destination, I limited current to 16A as I was advised on this forum due to the approach I used. Car seemed to remember it each time I hooked up there. Great that the car remembered (since I forgot to check it once!).

Cons:
- As mentioned above, I also experienced a 'phantom' break. Kinda pissed me off. Person behind me was close. Really could have been a problem if I wasn't super aware at the moment. Sealed the deal for NOT getting the auto-pilot feature after the trial wears out. I don't see myself getting comfortable with it. 
- Had a few other awkward breaking situation as well but I could rationalize why it happened (such as a car far ahead was slowing to exit the freeway - it was quite far ahead but I'm guessing my car noticed some rapid declaration far ahead).
- Not happy with the trip planner in the car. It was comfortable getting me to end destination with 5% charge and then proceeded to tell me to stay slower than 65 mph and then slower than 60 mph ..... while there were plenty of super chargers along the way. Just silly. I refused to lower my speed. I waited to see if it would change it's recommendation and even after seeing end battery projection looking like a dashed line (wasn't 5% any more), and still not telling me to stop at a super charger, I simply overrode it and picked one. There was no way I was going to get to the destination and the car should have figured that out. I'm expecting this to get fixed. All you need is one unexpected traffic jam and cold weather (so heat is on), to really put you in a very awkward spot if you are down to your last 25 miles on the battery. The nav should give you some options here. Its simply not user friendly at this time. Need to keep in mind driver mindsets.


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## Jarettp (Dec 1, 2018)

ADK46 said:


> In other discussions about automatic braking, "phantom braking" means braking when there is nothing to brake for - hence the word "phantom" - and most often is referring to _emergency_ automatic braking. That's a much more serious problem to anyone behind you. There have been some reports of this happening in Model 3s in narrow streets, at low speeds.


To be clear, I'm talking about the car braking hard when passing another car due to it thinking they are in my lane or when a car is merging onto the highway but not yet in my lane.


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## kort677 (Sep 17, 2018)

MelindaV said:


> maybe I follow the rules too closely, but still go with the 1 car length per 10mph I was told when in drivers ed many years ago, so 5 car lengths at 65 is too close for me.


that distance is way too far in most urbanized areas, a better rule that I use is the two second rule, pick a fixed object along side the road, and allow two seconds from the time the car ahead of you passes it until you pass it, that would leave plenty of room between you and the car ahead of you at any speed that you're traveling at.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two-second_rule


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## pjfw8 (Apr 28, 2016)

Just finished 2000 mile trip to the Milwaukee area (from NC). The 10 to 15% decrease in range due to cold weather was anticipated. Temps were mainly in the low 30's. Light snow, a headwind and wet roads had a major impact, about 30%. Supercharging was fine with only one crowded supercharger in Indianapolis. The trip was actually quite easy,

Navigate on Autopilot was great with 2 notable problems. Most major intersections and many regular exits prompted a note asking confirmation of the route by initiating a lane change. Why! This was also irregular. We would travel 100 miles or so without a prompt, then every exit would request a route confirmation. The lane change served no purpose. If confirmation is needed, there should be an easier way. And why confirm? No other nav system requires that you confirm your route every few exits. Secondly, several times the car would suddenly brake as I passed exits if I did not confirm. This prompted many bug reports. Generally the system needs to be smoother. My guests thought the system was nervous!


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## kort677 (Sep 17, 2018)

pjfw8 said:


> Just finished 2000 mile trip to the Milwaukee area (from NC). The 10 to 15% decrease in range due to cold weather was anticipated. Temps were mainly in the low 30's. Light snow, a headwind and wet roads had a major impact, about 30%. Supercharging was fine with only one crowded supercharger in Indianapolis. The trip was actually quite easy,
> 
> Navigate on Autopilot was great with 2 notable problems. Most major intersections and many regular exits prompted a note asking confirmation of the route by initiating a lane change. Why! This was also irregular. We would travel 100 miles or so without a prompt, then every exit would request a route confirmation. The lane change served no purpose. If confirmation is needed, there should be an easier way. And why confirm? No other nav system requires that you confirm your route every few exits. Secondly, several times the car would suddenly brake as I passed exits if I did not confirm. This prompted many bug reports. Generally the system needs to be smoother. My guests thought the system was nervous!


repeat as necessary, "it's only a beta"


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## ADK46 (Aug 4, 2018)

Anyone have the exact relationship or a graph of setting versus following time? What’s the setting for 2 seconds? I think it must be around 3 or 4. Perhaps it is more complex - shortening the time a bit as you go slower. E = 0.5MV^2, and all.

And the location is important. I make an adjustment as I drive south into New Jersey. Battle stations!


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## Jarettp (Dec 1, 2018)

pjfw8 said:


> Just finished 2000 mile trip to the Milwaukee area (from NC). The 10 to 15% decrease in range due to cold weather was anticipated. Temps were mainly in the low 30's. Light snow, a headwind and wet roads had a major impact, about 30%. Supercharging was fine with only one crowded supercharger in Indianapolis. The trip was actually quite easy,
> 
> Navigate on Autopilot was great with 2 notable problems. Most major intersections and many regular exits prompted a note asking confirmation of the route by initiating a lane change. Why! This was also irregular. We would travel 100 miles or so without a prompt, then every exit would request a route confirmation. The lane change served no purpose. If confirmation is needed, there should be an easier way. And why confirm? No other nav system requires that you confirm your route every few exits. Secondly, several times the car would suddenly brake as I passed exits if I did not confirm. This prompted many bug reports. Generally the system needs to be smoother. My guests thought the system was nervous!


Seems like we both were on highway 70. I noticed this same thing where it would request me to move to the left lane when an on ramp was coming up. I figured it was a temp solution for the hard braking that happens in the right lane when cars are merging. System must know which merge areas are problem ones.


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## Bibs (Jun 9, 2018)

I've tried Nav on AP during several long trips; in each case I have abandoned it rather quickly.

It seems like it's _*more*_ work (and nagging) than simply using AP...


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## kort677 (Sep 17, 2018)

please elaborate on the more work comment, the few times that I've used it I didn't notice any more work, it suggests lane changes, if you don't care to use the suggestions you can ignore them and they go away, did I miss something?


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## Jay Jay (Oct 26, 2018)

pjfw8 said:


> Navigate on Autopilot was great with 2 notable problems. Most major intersections and many regular exits prompted a note asking confirmation of the route by initiating a lane change. Why! This was also irregular. We would travel 100 miles or so without a prompt, then every exit would request a route confirmation. The lane change served no purpose. If confirmation is needed, there should be an easier way. And why confirm? No other nav system requires that you confirm your route every few exits.


This happened to us as well on our recent road trip. Not sure why it keeps doing this. We just ignored it, hoping to teach the algorithm something.


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## pjfw8 (Apr 28, 2016)

Jarettp said:


> Seems like we both were on highway 70. I noticed this same thing where it would request me to move to the left lane when an on ramp was coming up. I figured it was a temp solution for the hard braking that happens in the right lane when cars are merging. System must know which merge areas are problem ones.


Thanks for mentioning hard braking on merging. I noticed that a few times as well.


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## Bibs (Jun 9, 2018)

kort677 said:


> please elaborate on the more work comment, the few times that I've used it I didn't notice any more work, it suggests lane changes, if you don't care to use the suggestions you can ignore them and they go away, did I miss something?


When I drive with AP, I simply drive. I change lanes when I see fit, and I follow the navigation.

With Nav on AP, the car keeps suggesting when I should change lanes. So I have to re-assess the road environment and ask why the car wants to when I don't (or else I would have already done so). If I ignore it, the car starts to ding at me (which makes me want a "dismiss" function). When I get near the next exit, I have to hawk the car to see if it will indeed take the exit on its own or if I will have to do so myself or if the car will prompt a lane change towards the "wrong" lane perilously close to an exit.

Bottom line, I end up expending a lot MORE attention to what the car is doing than I do with AP. It's fatiguing to constantly wonder if the machine will or won't act as I would regarding traffic speed and lane choices.

Just one person's experience...


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## ADK46 (Aug 4, 2018)

I have felt this increased workload. In most situations, my own driving is automatic. My neural network takes care of driving without conscious effort. Any non-standard or complex situation instantly wakens more conscious functions. E.g., keep an eye on that car coming up the on-ramp. Easy for a trillion-connection neural network, but of course, tedious. Also subject to distraction and weariness. Tedium, distraction, weariness - that's what an autopilot system is for. 

A beta auto-pilot system (one you should assume will make mistakes) adds a monitoring task — and anxiety — without reducing tedium enough to compensate. E.g., be alert: the painted line on this merge lane is indistinct or missing - the car may lurch to the right. When my own alert system is better trained to notice such things, I might be able to relax.


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## Jay Jay (Oct 26, 2018)

Yeah, I just don't experience the same thing as some here are. With EAP, my level of driving stress goes way down in most situations. Sure, some require extra monitoring, but it's certainly nothing more than I would normally do anyway.


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## MichelT3 (Nov 16, 2016)

It's all about expectation / acceptation / valuation


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## tencate (Jan 11, 2018)

Thinking about the 2 second rule, that was designed with human reaction times in mind, right? If on autopilot and with the car's radar locked onto the car in front, I presume the Tesla's reaction time is instantaneous and that 2 second rule goes out the window. I _am_ mindful of following politely though on long drives with AP though, especially at night. I suspect some of the drivers I've been behind on several of my long trips have wondered (and maybe were unnerved a little) about that white Tesla "glued" behind them.


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## MichelT3 (Nov 16, 2016)

I agree @tencate, when FSD becomes fully functional and the norm, there is no problem with cars following each other at 1 meter or 1 foot distance.
But we currently still have roads on which almost all cars are human-driven. That is why we need to keep 'human-driving' as the norm, for now.
I know that I get unnerved when a car follows me too closely. I tend to keep more distance in that case, from the car in front of me, to create an extra buffer. 
I think the 2 second rule is safe, though seldom practical in busy rush hour traffic.
On a Sunday, when less experienced drivers are on the road, the 2 second rule is necessary. 
It still depends on the moment and our human experience and judgement.


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## Bibs (Jun 9, 2018)

Jay Jay said:


> Yeah, I just don't experience the same thing as some here are. With EAP, my level of driving stress goes way down in most situations. Sure, some require extra monitoring, but it's certainly nothing more than I would normally do anyway.


And to be clear, my gripe is only with Nav on AP... 
The normal AP functionality is a Godsend on long trips; I've racked up ~6000 highway miles using AP this year, and it's a fatigue reducer.


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## garsh (Apr 4, 2016)

Bibs said:


> And to be clear, my gripe is only with Nav on AP...
> The normal AP functionality is a Godsend on long trips; I've racked up ~6000 highway miles using AP this year, and it's a fatigue reducer.


Yes, NoA is still somewhat buggy.
I will often just use regular old Autopilot as well to rid myself of all of the unwanted "bonging".


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## FRC (Aug 4, 2018)

garsh said:


> Yes, NoA is still somewhat buggy.
> I will often just use regular old Autopilot as well to rid myself of all of the unwanted "bonging".


As it currently stands(BETA), I find NOA worse than useless on familiar roads. Perhaps it's helpful in unfamiliar urban settings to assist in locating the correct lanes and exits. Clearly, it's it it's infancy at present and will become more useful over time.


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## Jarettp (Dec 1, 2018)

FRC said:


> As it currently stands(BETA), I find NOA worse than useless on familiar roads. Perhaps it's helpful in unfamiliar urban settings to assist in locating the correct lanes and exits. Clearly, it's it it's infancy at present and will become more useful over time.


NOAP hates the highways in Northern Virginia for some reason. Some examples;

1) At my exit, it turns into more of an access road for two exits. One lane opens up initially and then after about half a mile another lane opens up which eventually turns into two lanes itself. My car only needs to stay in the first lane that opened up to make it to my exit as any other lane further right will exit the highway prematurely. My car EVERY TIME automatically tries to move over the additional lane and then wants to ask me to move back over to the left. (I report it constantly but no fix yet)

2) If my car is in the right lane on 95N approaching the Capital Beltway, there is an unrelated exit about a 2 miles before that interchange that my car will try to take EVERY TIME if it's in the right lane. It's very unnerving having the car seemingly randomly pull off the highway at the wrong exit.

3) My car HATES being in the left lane on the Beltway. I think it has something to do with the bollards separating the main highway from the express lanes or possibly just bad programming but it's an issue. NOAP will bong at my constantly if I'm in the left lane to get over to "follow route" even though my "route" may be taking me to an approaching left exit. It's so bad that it will ask me to switch to the left lane to pass the car and bong at me to go back to the right before even beginning to pass the car.

How do they gather data to fix this because reporting it via the car or me constantly overriding the car trying to steer me off the highway has yielded zero results so far.


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## FRC (Aug 4, 2018)

Jarettp said:


> NOAP hates the highways in Northern Virginia for some reason. Some examples;
> 
> 1) At my exit, it turns into more of an access road for two exits. One lane opens up initially and then after about half a mile another lane opens up which eventually turns into two lanes itself. My car only needs to stay in the first lane that opened up to make it to my exit as any other lane further right will exit the highway prematurely. My car EVERY TIME automatically tries to move over the additional lane and then wants to ask me to move back over to the left. (I report it constantly but no fix yet)
> 
> ...


I wouldn't expect anything near an Instant fix of specific anomalies. Always remember, NOA is a beta function and your specific issues and those of thousands of others will be addressed in future updates. Patience is a virtue with any of the beta functions of the car.


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