# Chevrolet Volt (Gen 2, 2016, 2017, 2018, 2019) - discontinued Nov'18



## ebotrd (Jul 5, 2018)

Hopefully i won't be dismembered on this forum but...
I actually have a hard time understanding why folks are willing to spend so much more for Model 3.
I'd love to hear your thoughts on the matter!

I have a 2012 Volt (base model), but will have a much longer commute soon that'll force me to burn about $1,000 in gas per year even in this car that sips gas. I can charge on a simple 120v plug at work for 8-9 hours and get maybe 26-30 battery range miles that way. Have plenty of solar at home so no problem there.

I went and looked at a 2018 Volt and Model 3 in the flesh last weekend, 
I guess for comparison:
*Model 3* long-range battery and premium interior (cheapest possible configuration currently available -- and likely cheapest to also have a chance at the $7500 federal tax credit before it phases out). After that tax credit (assuming you're OK with the basic black paint and standard wheels) --> *$41,500 (62% more)*
*2018 Volt Premium*, after tax credit --> *$26,000*.
(I don't have a state incentive in my case).

So let's call it a $15,000 difference. 

*What do you get for that $15,000?*
--Luxuriousness(?) OK, I concede I probably just don't get it. Model 3 does overall seem a little nicer/sleeker inside and out, but not $15k-worth IMHO. People say, "oh, compare this to compact luxury vehicles like BMW 3 series", etc. Then others say BMW's are way nicer. I have no idea as I don't have a sense of that stuff - nicest cars ever for me were my '12 Volt (base) and an '08 Odyssey EX-L. All I know is the Gen 2 Volt Premium interior seemed almost as nice as Model 3 overall to me. Model 3 had the cool AC vent and 15" Ipad screen. Chevy has the 8" Ipad screen, but also has the 2nd screen behind the wheel which is nice. AC is just as cold








--Performance. Model 3 is clearly quicker, but not enough for me to care. Some will care about this. Volt's still better than any "common man" ICE car I've ever had. I care about this when I need to zip out of someone's way when they're not looking and about to side-swipe me or something. Volt gets it done.
--5th seat. M3's 5th seat is a little more realistic. I'm 6'2". I sat in the Model 3 rear middle seat for about 3 minutes straight, and did the same in the Gen 2 Volt. I could sit in either for hours if needed and don't think it'd be a big deal (much better than economy air travel seating IMHO), but certainly my legs had a real space in the Model 3 and my hair was touching the glass roof, but I didn't have to bend my head down a bit as I did in the Volt.
--Fuel costs would likely be lower than Volt for most owners...but not $0 for either. See my real-world comparison below...very little difference.
--Future-proofness. Model 3 will probably age more elegantly (maybe)...minimalist interior should age well. 310 miles will be plenty for most anyone even when they come out with 400 and 500 mile range EV's in the next several years. Also, autopilot and self-driving capability can be purchased later, but at a hefty price (currently that'd be I think $10,000 more to add on both later). Also, Tesla has those over-the-air updates. It seems whenever those get significant buzz, it's because they've improved autopilot...other changes seem to be just window dressing.
--Trunk space. Model 3 has more trunk space overall by 4-5 cubic feet I believe.
--Greener. Model 3's a bit more green overall...never burns a drop of fossil fuels. Depends where your electricity comes from, but even if all coal you're still likely greener in the 3. Still, Volt can get you 80%+ the way there. Compare at https://www.ucsusa.org/clean-vehicles/electric-vehicles/ev-emissions-tool#.W0WKdqdKjDc Grams CO2 per mile: Volt: 132. Model 3: 77 (these numbers specific to where I am in SoCal, where the grid I about 40% renewables I've heard recently). For comparison, average ICE car is 38.

*Sacrifices(?)*:
--Road-tripping. 310 mile range and SuperCharger network should handle all long-range needs OK, and my family does enjoy the SuperCharger road trip experience for it's novelty and futuristic feel. However, let's face it, a trip from Southern CA to Grand Canyon could be about 10 hours in a Volt and would be over 12 hours in a Model 3. SuperCharging simply takes longer. I don't think most will mind too much as a nice break to stretch and walk a little is a welcome respite in my opinion, but some will. And anytime your getting sleepy or in a rush to get somewhere, you'll be annoyed (I have been at times). 
--Repair costs will be more for Tesla I'd think. Other than the battery/motor, I'd be comfortable taking Volt to any ASE-certified mechanic specializing in Chevy. Tesla not so much. Body work also costlier for Tesla from what I've heard due to many aluminum parts (although Model 3 has some steel). 
--Maintenance costs probably a wash. Tesla should have low overall maintenance costs. Volt historically also super-low cost. I've had my 2012 for 3 years, bought it used non-CPO with 65,000 miles on it, appeared it hadn't been charged for months. Record showed clear title and an oil change 5 months prior. Since then I've spent $13 for another oil change (had a coupon), $300 for a recent scheduled maintenance that included checking battery coolant (probably a rip-off but I didn't want to blow off battery coolant), and I replaced the Delco battery for like $170. So call it $500 in 3 years.

OTHER:
Fuel cost comparison (and my real-life scenario)...Model 3 near $0, Gen 2 Volt $200/year.
My commute is up to higher elevation one way, back down the other. 1-2 days/week it'll be 35 miles each way, and I almost make it uphill on my '12 Volt getting typically about 30 miles battery-only range, then burn about 0.2 gal gas. In the Gen 2 Volt I'll get there all electric. I charge all day at work on just a 120 volt charger, usually get around 26 miles battery range, and always make it back all-electric. The other 3-4 days/week it's about 50 miles each way. On the uphill, I use 30 miles battery range, then burn about 2/3 gal of gas. Back down with my 26 miles of re-charge, I burn about another 1/4 gallon in my 2012 Volt. I think the Gen 2 Volt will make it all the way there all electric, but then I expect I'd still only get 26 miles of charge while at work (same 120v outlet scenario), so I'll still probably burn that 1/4 gallon. Still I go from burning about 4 gallons/week to 1 gallon/week. For simplicity, let's say gas is $4/gal. In a year that's 52 gal/$208 rather than 208 gal/$832. I save over $600/year...likely more with evening/weekend driving. 

We are blessed to have rooftop solar, so Volt or Model 3, home charging cost is negligible for me now. Any road-tripping, Tesla charges 0.26/kWh to charge, which may get you 3 miles, so about 0.09 cents/mile. Gen 2 Volt at $4/gal goes about 40+ miles, so say 0.10 cents/mile. Leaving the environmental arguments aside, not much difference in cost and folks have argued you should consider the time savings -- gas fueling is still way faster let's be honest. SuperChargers also sometimes have a line (OK gas stations do sometimes too, but less often in my experience)...and you don't always get the fastest SuperCharging rate - it's common knowledge if sharing a SuperCharger you may only get a rate in the 70's kW rather than the ideal 120kW. Also, with SuperChargers that last 20% or so of charging slows way down to protect the battery, so when you get to about 250 mile range you're usually better off time-wise just stopping at that point. Also with any EV you need to give yourself at least 10% buffer on the lower so as not to get stranded, so you'll want to keep your Model 3 range between about 30 miles and 250 miles range, so really only driving 220. Also driving highway speeds will burn battery range faster, as will cold weather, etc. So Model 3 you'll want to stop at least every 200-250 miles or so. For non-Telsa EV chargers, I seem to always see 0.50 to $1.00 per kW - total rip off. Gassing up my Volt is way cheaper!
Say Model 3 saves me $300/year in fuel costs to be super-generous...but it's $15k more to buy. Hmmm, I break even in 50 years(?) Wow!

Safety.
Both have 5 star ratings. Maybe no significance overall, but I noticed Gen 2 Volt has 10 airbags, Model 3 actually only has 8. Gen 2 Volt Premium seems to have overall about the same level of safety features as Model 3 (without $5k autopilot). Actually Volt "Adaptive Cruise Control" isn't much different from autopilot...you have to steer, but hands supposed to be on the wheel for both anyway; and autopilot can change lanes for you. Both make bumper-to-bumper traffic much less annoying.

Insurance.
I compared insurance costs on USAA. Almost exactly the same - both super-cheap...actually both LESS than my 2012 Volt!

Other specs seem pretty close.

PS -- 
Not sure it's worth buying used, but you get even better numbers with used 2016 Volt Premium. No tax rebate, but can be easily found for $23,000. So now you're paying over $18k more for a Model 3. Not too many used Model 3's yet.
BMW i3 REx also seems it'd fit my commute pretty well and used 72 mile battery range seem to start around $15k, but Volt's handle road-trips with no compromises. BMW i3 seem to have unique challenges outside ~150 mile trip. Probably not worth the hassle to me.


----------



## garsh (Apr 4, 2016)

Wow, that's a lot of text.

There are several answers, all depending on the individual.

Why does anybody buy a BMW/Mercedes/Cadillac/Audi/Lexus/Genesis when they could pay less for a Chevy/Ford/Hyundai/Honda/Toyota? Some people like the premium brands, and the extra features they provide.
Autopilot, and Full-Self-Driving in the (hopefully near) future. Nobody else is offering that.
Cars that get updated throughout their lifetime
That Volt can't do 0-60mph in 3.5s
Model 3 is sexy. Volt is just another economy car.
I don't ever want to buy another car with a combustion engine. I don't want to deal with oil changes, and emissions testing, and a complicated transmission, etc.

If all you want is a commuter car that allows you to save money, then get a used Leaf. They're very cheap, and are fun little cars to drive. If the car needs to be able to go on some longer trips, then the Volt is a good choice.


----------



## Love (Sep 13, 2017)

OMG TESLA SHORT!!!! GET EM!!! 

A well written, detailed post, for certain. I don't imagine you'll get burned at the stake here at M3OC... but get your flame suit just in case!

Speaking only for myself, I see nothing appealing about the Volt. I don't like the way it looks at all. I don't like the cars the company puts out and I don't like the car company: I dislike that they were bailed out by us (U.S. taxpayers). 

Also, I've eliminated gasoline entirely from our household and want to never have to deal with it again. So there is that. Sure it's better for the environment, but more importantly to me, it's better for my own health which is something I'm becoming more aware of as I age. Just a few drips of gas here or there? A smell of it once a week while prepping to mow the lawn? Harmless? Maybe or maybe not, but I've eliminated that variable all together so there isn't a chance.


----------



## justflie (May 9, 2018)

Part of it is a “want,” for sure. I have a 2012 Volt also, which I have thoroughly enjoyed, but which I only purchased as a bridge vehicle to eventually go full electric. I test drove the leaf in late 2011 and it just didn’t do it for me. Not enough range, too small, etc. The Volt was the best of both worlds for me at the time; enough electric range for my daily commute and then some, plus the ICE for longer trips. Some/many of the people here believe Tesla and EV driving are the future and want to support that vision with their wallets. The Volt is only a half-measure to that end.

Now that the Model 3 has arrived, I’m able to reasonably afford a fully electric vehicle. For me, there’s a stark difference in driving enjoyment in my Volt in EV mode Vs. ICE. And Garsh nailed it with his post for many of the reasons, especially that first one. This demographic is less price sensitive than most and is willing to spend more money on luxury, performance, etc. If price were weighted highest in our calculations, likely none of us would be doling out $50k+ for something with 4 wheels and a steering wheel just like any other car.

And +5 points for autopilot, every time I’m in traffic, especially to Cape Cod, I remind myself! “Only a few more months til my dual motor...”

Edit: and you have a model x so your price sensitivity is likely different than most, as well. But we all have our lines which is the reason for your post. You can’t see spending the money on the 3 compared to the Volt. I can’t understand spending the extra for Performance but there are people who highly value the extras they get there. To each his own.


----------



## KarenRei (Jul 27, 2017)

First off,

1) Welcome 

2) I think your numbers are misleading based on you focusing on "what you could get at this moment right now", when nobody can just walk down to a "Tesla Dealership" today like they can with a Volt and walk off with a Model 3. Your comparison requires the Model 3 being constrained to versions available *today* which people can't just walk off the street and buy. Push the comparison off 9-12 months or so to when there's no longer a waiting list, to when the "man on the street" can actually choose between a Volt or a Model 3 without a huge waiting list, and the comparison will be very different. Neither will likely have the tax credit, and lower cost Model 3 variants will be available.

3) You're writing off things that people are well known to pay large premiums for, like performance, as if they're nothing, just because you don't care. But the general public distinctly does, that's why they pay so much for it. A 7,5s 0-60 and a 5,1s 0-60 (often measuring in several tenths faster than that) aren't even in the same ballpark. You're tacking on $5k of PUP onto the Model 3 with hardly a second thought, ignoring that most of what it provides doesn't have an equivalent in Volt. Let alone all of the things that come standard in Model 3 that don't have an equivalent in Volt, but that's a whole new can of worms.

If you write off performance and luxury features, you might as well write "I don't understand why anyone would buy a BMW when they could buy a Honda Civic"

4) You write off all issues of range simply because you drive so little outside of the Volt's limited range. Well, great for you. You write off all other comparisons of countries where tax credits / structures are different for different vehicles because you live in the US. Well, great for you. You haphazardly mention oil changes and gas fillups like we're not supposed to have to care about ICE engine hassles like that. Great for you if you happen not to. But do understand that you aren't everyone. 

5) That said, even for you, here's some graphs you should really pay attention to:



















Obviously, we don't have data for the Model 3 yet, but if it's anything like Tesla's other models - and I see no reason why it won't be - its depreciation rate will crush the Volt's. And that is a _huge_ financial difference there.

Then this gem at the end:



> Not sure it's worth buying used, but you get even better numbers with used 2016 Volt Premium.


Now you're comparing the price of a _used_ car with the price of a different, _new_ car in order to favour your preferred car? Come on now, at least try to be serious here. Do we really also need to explain the reason why people pay more for new cars than used ones?

Oh, and one more minor point: Model 3 is 241 Wh/mi EPA, Volt is 265 Wh/mi. And the Tesla was deliberately downrated to that by Tesla from the measured values; it actually measured in at 224. We could also talk about _available options_, too. Want autopilot? Volt isn't an option to you at all. Want AWD? Volt isn't an option to you at all. Want a real performance package? Volt isn't an option for you at all. Etc, etc.


----------



## KarenRei (Jul 27, 2017)

Also, I'm curious - what exactly _is_ the rate of Volt fatalities? Because in Teslas it's one in every 320 million miles, vs. the US average of 1 in 86 million miles.


----------



## MelindaV (Apr 2, 2016)

For me, it comes down to: 
Why would I buy a hybrid if I wanted an EV?
Why would I purchase from GM when I could purchase from Tesla?
Why would I drive a boring ho-hum car when I could drive a tesla?

Disclaimer: I did not feel the need to read thru a page long bash so stopped after the first paragraph


----------



## Dr. J (Sep 1, 2017)

ebotrd said:


> For comparison, average ICE car is 38.


I think you mean 381, based on your source.


----------



## Dr. J (Sep 1, 2017)

My answer is: different strokes for different folks. I probably can't talk you off that ledge, *and* since you already own a Model X, I don't see why it's even necessary. Good luck!


----------



## Ken Voss (Feb 2, 2017)

If your ONLY criteria is the cheapest car that is economical I would not recommend a Model 3. Take a look at a used Prius, you can pick up a low mileage 2014 or 2015 for under $15,000 and get 50MPG... 

Now I would not compare that car with a Model 3 in ANY way but it gets great gas mileage and is cheep if that is all you are looking for go for it!


----------



## Ed Woodrick (May 26, 2018)

I think that you are probably comparing to the wrong thing. It is pretty obvious that the features of the Model 3 aren't advantageous to you. There's no problem with that. Some people have different lifestyle and different desires. Some people buy used cars, some people buy new.

Actually the Volt really isn't in the same marketplace as the fully electrics. And there are a tone of cars in the hybrid space now.

What I think that you should be comparing the Volt to is the 2018 Leaf. With the current 160+ mile range, that would handle your daily requirements with ease and can even come with the same self-driving capabilities in the Model 3 today. It's a great car, overshadowed by the Model 3, but a fully electric with some pretty impressive features. The base model, with tax credit is under $23k, so it can even beat the Volt. 

BTW, just looking at Chevy's site, the Volt pricing seems to be a lot more than what you show.


----------



## PNWmisty (Aug 19, 2017)

ebotrd said:


> Not sure it's worth buying used, but you get even better numbers with used 2016 Volt Premium. No tax rebate, but can be easily found for $23,000. So now you're paying over $18k more for a Model 3.


True, from a pure dollars and cents perspective, you are financially ahead keeping your Volt (or buying a used Volt). If we all bought cars based purely on how much it cost to get from A to B, we would all be in 10 year old cars with small gas engines. But most people want to upgrade to something nicer.

In the case of the Model 3, it's_ a lot_ nicer! If you can afford it, it's a great value.


----------



## BluestarE3 (Oct 12, 2017)

Could it be you're subconsciously trying to convince yourself not to lust for a Model 3 and are hoping for some kind of affirmation here?


----------



## GDN (Oct 30, 2017)

Wow - I didn't read past the first line or two, so good deal to all of you that did and have responded to OP, but why no Volt or Bolt - lets just be real - wouldn't be caught dead driving those ugly things. I know a lot of my fellow members have driven those cars and I don't truly mean to offend you, but I figure most of you bought those cars to be green and conserve and maybe save the planet, but I have a real hard time thinking anyone truly went down and bought one of those cars solely on looks. It's about looks, tastes, power, pure raw s3xy.


----------



## garsh (Apr 4, 2016)

GDN said:


> why no Volt or Bolt - lets just be real - wouldn't be caught dead driving those ugly things.


For me, the Volt just wasn't ugly enough.

#NissanLeafOwner #GuppyFace #WheresMyModel3


----------



## Quicksilver (Dec 29, 2016)

I started down the path of electrified transportation back in 2004 with a Prius...yes, electrified even in a Prius, for a very short distance and at a very slow speed. I then moved to a 2014 Volt, it actually had all electric range (about 38 miles the way I drive) and was not limited by speed on electric propulsion. I can say that the Volt was the vehicle that got me wanting more and more all electric range but I now wanted to get out of buying gas (and all the maintenance that goes with ICE) altogether and so it became a bridge vehicle and I was ready to go full electric. 

As others have mentioned, besides being fully electrified and sustainable, an EV's look and design play a big part in the purchasing decision because buying a car is such an emotional purchase; I would venture to say that even a good looking pickup truck appeals to our emotions. Yes, beauty is subjective but there is something timeless about great designs vs. designs that exude ugliness (ex: the Pontiac Aztek). Sure, I could have gone with a Leaf or even the i3 that I had a short term lease on and I am no expert on car designs, but I just knew I could not live long-term with both these vehicles that do not appeal to my sense of beauty in design and functionality (long range). 

If you are looking to buy a vehicle on purely economic reasons, then these cars (Volts, Leaf, Model 3, etc...) may not make sense. You might as well as get a Civic, Corolla, etc...


----------



## Fishn4life (Jul 5, 2018)

I just took delivery of my 3 so take this for what it’s worth.

We have had the Chevy Bolt (B not V) for last 8 months. We love it. It’s not luxurious by any means but it is a nice car and serves it’s purpose. I commute approx 60 miles and it allows for free carpool and fast track (which is approx $20 each way here in so cal). It also has a great range (60 KW battery).

My wife wanted to keep the Bolt for her car so now we have 2 EVs. I think both cars are great but honestly it’s like comparing flying 1st class to coach. Both seats will get you from A to B but the comfort level is night/day. Also, the technology is amazing with the Tesla. It’s a completely different class. 

It really comes down to what you value the difference at. Would you buy a 1st class ticket and fly first class on a regular basis if it cost 1/3 more? For me, both cars are great but the model 3 is a no brainer for the difference in price.


----------



## ebotrd (Jul 5, 2018)

garsh said:


> Some people like the premium brands





Fishn4life said:


> Would you buy a 1st class ticket and fly first class on a regular basis if it cost 1/3 more?


Uh, no. I might pay $5 more. $10 even.



George Matook said:


> This demographic is less price sensitive than most and is willing to spend more money on luxury, performance, etc.


Exactly. This sort of "Freakonomics" stuff fascinates me - I love learning how other folks view these sorts of decisions and make the choices they do. For me the security and freedom that a fat nest egg buys me is definitely more important than creature comforts. And I'm not quite there yet -- you know, retirement $$, 529's, and all the rest. I've been working hard to get there for decades...painful to me whenever something slows me down towards that goal. But I really like hearing how the other side views these things. Kind of like listening to a die hard Trump supporter -- don't quite get it completely, but like to try to understand.

Clearly $15k is worth more to me than many Tesla owners. But, if $15k is worth less to someone else, I'd assume their time is worth more to them. So maybe it's better to try to frame it as the time value of money. For me $15k probably means about 150 hours of extra work outside my regular full time job. Would it be worth it to you to spend 150 hours of time working, away from family and enjoyable pastimes to buy a Model 3 instead of (whatever other cheaper EV or hybrid)?....and why?



garsh said:


> emissions testing


Ah, I have to get a smog check on my Volt this week actually.



garsh said:


> oil changes


I do hate these too, and avoiding them would add value to my life, but I bought my used '12 Volt 3 years ago and have only had to change the oil once...had a coupon so only cost $12.95. I still have over 90% oil life remaining.



Lovesword said:


> I've eliminated gasoline entirely from our household


I do see the appeal.



Lovesword said:


> I dislike that they were bailed out by us (U.S. taxpayers).


I thought it was a loan they paid back early with interest? Didn't Tesla have a similar DOE loan that they paid back? Just sayin'. That was a tough time - I know I got burned on the house we'd bought in 2005.

Karen,
Thank you. You read me pretty well - I'm sure my tree hugger profile scores quite high, but my practicality/financial prudence is also quite strong. So I ruminate over the cost/benefit numbers for consumer purchases and the time value of money. Love your depreciation graphs for comparison. You made me realize this:
If Model 3 depreciation mirrors that of Model S (which I think's a reasonable assumption), then a $50k Model 3 would still be worth $25k (approx 50% "residual") at 100k miles. The $33k Volt would only be worth about $12k. That's nearly the $15k price difference that I'm whining about in the first place. Something to really think about.



KarenRei said:


> I think your numbers are misleading based on you focusing on "what you could get at this moment right now"


I guess you mean because Model 3's at $35k will be available in the coming months. So maybe $35k Model 3 vs Premium Volt might be a better comparison-hmmm. In my case the $49k long-range, premium Model 3 would be $41,500 as I think I still have time to snag the federal tax credit. $35k Model 3 I suspect won't offer much credit. I do kinda think the extra range and faux leather seats are probably worth another $6,500.



KarenRei said:


> "I don't understand why anyone would buy a BMW when they could buy a Honda Civic"


Yeah, that's kinda how my brain works. I think I've asked that exact question once!



KarenRei said:


> in Teslas it's one in every 320 million miles, vs. the US average of 1 in 86 million miles.


This article points out that Tesla's "1 in 86 million" fatality rate average figure is misleading.
_*The central problem with the 86m figure is that it refers to the average vehicle on the road. Some drivers are drunk or texting. The average car is 11 years old, when newer cars are linked to deaths at far lower rates for various reasons.*_

I'm not quite sure apples-to-apples but may be very close, but I did find this IIHS data: http://www.iihs.org/iihs/topics/driver-death-rates
It notes Volt's one of the safest cars in its class at 7 fatal accidents in ~140,000 registered vehicle years -- better than most and nearly in the realm of the Mercedes & BMWs listed. I guess you could estimate folks drive around 12,000 miles per year, so that's 7 deaths in 1.68 billion miles(?)...so 1 in 240 million(?).
Unfortunately Tesla isn't listed.

And this article takes the IIHS numbers to estimate the average for modern cars is actually
_one driver fatality for every 428 million miles driven._



BluestarE3 said:


> Could it be you're subconsciously trying to convince yourself not to lust for a Model 3 and are hoping for some kind of affirmation here?


It could, kinda. I mean, I know I'd like Model 3 more overall than the Volt, but it doesn't feel like $15k 150 hours?) more to me. Or it's like $30k more than just keeping my '12 Volt. Affirmation would be helpful 

And thanks to everyone for the Leaf, Bolt, other hybrid suggestions. I do want to be as electric as possible, so really don't want to even consider Prius. I have considered the other EV's but the only ones that could reliably make my longer work commute (130 miles total) are Bolt, newest Leaf, possibly used/new i3 REx, new/used Volt, and Model 3. However, for me the freedom to drive a couple hundred miles spur of the moment with minimal hassle is actually worth a few more thousand $$. Also, I almost bought a used Leaf when shopping my used '12 Volt. Volt cost was about $2k more back then as I recall, but my wife pointed out I'll forget to charge it some day and really regret it. She was right -- I've forgotten my charge cable, forgotten to plug in entirely, couldn't plug in at all, had breakers trip on me, etc. In Volt I just sigh, shrug my shoulders, and burn a little gas. Most of our road trips are family in the X, but sometimes I have to road trip solo up to 500 miles for work or 250 miles for our rental a couple of counties away. Renting would be extra expense/time/hassle not worth it to me (even to cheap guy), so that narrows my choices down to Volt or Tesla.

I may be best off waiting. Great because less effort now  Also, the flip side of Karen's depreciation data is that if could wait 3-4 years, I maybe could buy a used long range 3 with 100k miles for maybe $20k or so(?) If repair/maintenance/endurance data looks as favorable as I think it will, well that's a purchase I could see feeling comfortable with. Then we could compare used 3 vs new/used Volt. Now THAT will be interesting.


----------



## tensoneu (Jul 12, 2018)

Previous owner of a 2016 Volt here, recently sold in preparation for Model 3. I agree with the points you listed. Heck at one point I was even thinking of trading in my Volt and lease Kia Soul EV (lease was under 6k for 3 years) as my wife has one. In city driving any EV will do because of the instant torque from 0-30.

I've come to a conclusion that life is too short and I rather not have to wait later in life to drive something I actually want. It's probably one of the worse financial mistakes but when is buying a new car a good financial decision?

But to justify the cost of the purchase I'll list them:
1) The rear seats has more headroom and doesn't feel as cramped when compared to the Volt
2) My child will be able to see more of the outside during his times in the car
3) Sometimes the Volt's A/C has this weird smell when first turned on but then goes away after a bit. Also the heat for the foot well is poor in the winter. (Not a big issue but a downside to me)
4) I dislike driving long distances and I know EAP (Convenience feature) would help alleviate most of the stress of long distance driving.
5) Standard safety features (Not EAP) included with the vehicle by default. The Volt does not have these unless you go with a premier trim and even then it doesn't do what a Tesla can do. There have been videos of Model 3 owners almost getting side swiped from other vehicles drifting to their lane and the car would auto-steer the vehicle to avoid collision.

The price difference I'm paying for is the everyday experience driving an awesome car (similar to how you would go to the Movies or on a Vacation trip somewhere) and the safety features. I'm also betting on software improvements\features on the car that will basically give you something new for your car every few months or so.


----------



## SoFlaModel3 (Apr 15, 2017)

For me this simple — I will never pump gas again. 

Now to speak to the car itself specifically. I have no experience with the Volt, but I can specifically say I typically do not like the American brands at all. I have always thought they felt cheap even if they looked nice from a distance (again can’t specifically speak to the Volt so that’s just my perception of Chevy). 

Funny that I end up with the most American car ever, but everything about it feels premium like a German car. 

I like premium things and will pay a premium to get them!


----------



## Love (Sep 13, 2017)

@ebotrd Yes the no gas is awesome! I got myself the Ego Power Plus lawn equipment and snow blower (still need to sell and part ways with the gas snow blower to deal the final blow!).

I did a google search on "did chevy pay back the bailout money" and read a bit, looks like they did as you said. There's just other aspects to it that I completely disagree with, "too big to fail," the plan in general, even in how they repaid the loan (after doing some reading). It's all just my opinion on the matter so I'll stop there, but you are correct... they did repay the loan.

I think lastly I'll add that everything has value. It seems most evident here that each individual assigns a value to things in their life and applies their logic to all things. That's what makes us all unique. My wife and I have owned our home for some years, but we have zero wall art. I don't own a motorcycle, boat, RV, any type of recreational vehicle, I don't hunt, own or go to a camp ground or anything. I've assigned value to those things as not necessary where as I looked at this Tesla Model 3 purchase as something I wanted. I need a car, that much is true, and any old thing could get me where I need to be, however this purchase was about enjoying something that I value and deciding that for myself it was worth the cost. I really do think you get your monies worth with this vehicle though.


----------



## garsh (Apr 4, 2016)

SoFlaModel3 said:


> For me this simple - I will never pump gas again.


Your _wife_ will never pump gas again. Not so much for you. 
But that was going to be true whether or not you bought a Tesla.


----------



## justflie (May 9, 2018)

Oh yeah, forgot about space! There have been numerous times we needed 5 people in a car (my 4 and my mom) and we couldn’t fit in the Volt. Had to take my mom’s car. Also, I’m very much looking forward to the increased storage space! Anytime we go away for the weekend to a family member’s house, it’s like playing Tetris in my Volt. Everything just BARELY fits (double stroller, etc) even if I use the floors in the backseat. Definitely getting sick of that.


----------



## Dr. J (Sep 1, 2017)

ebotrd said:


> For me the security and freedom that a fat nest egg buys me is definitely more important than creature comforts. And I'm not quite there yet -- you know, retirement $$, 529's, and all the rest. I've been working hard to get there for decades...painful to me whenever something slows me down towards that goal.


I don't personally know anyone who is cheaper than me except my lovely SO. So I get where you're coming from, and I'm at the stage in life of making the transition from ant to grasshopper.

But you bought a Model X, which costs, what...>$100K? I don't drive such things, but aren't there a couple dozen luxury (ICE) SUVs you could have bought for maybe half the price? I don't get that. But as the late George Harrison said, "It's all up to what you value."

To me, the Model 3 is an incredible value because I yearned for a Model S but NEVER would have paid THAT kind of money for a car. Any car. This is an opportunity to get what I think is an even better car in every way (including smaller size) for way less money. I really can't afford to pass that up.


----------



## SoFlaModel3 (Apr 15, 2017)

garsh said:


> Your _wife_ will never pump gas again. Not so much for you.
> But that was going to be true whether or not you bought a Tesla.


We really need to expedite her transition to sustainable transport. We didn't pull the trigger on Model 3 P. She's back to wanting Model Y


----------



## ebotrd (Jul 5, 2018)

Thanks for the further thoughts!
I was happy to hear fed tax credit would likely apply for me as I’ve already been invited to configure/order. 2 questions:
- Is there any reason to believe that M3 will be able to take advantage of V3 Superchargers when they roll out? If so is the prediction that they’ll cost a premium to use?
- what safety features would come if I don’t opt to pay the extra $5k for autopilot? (Apologies for not already knowing - even just a link could get me up to speed). I’d be ordering LR premium (premium because I have to) and I found I mostly prefer to drive myself anyway when I tried autopilot. Loaded Volt comes with adaptive cruise control which looks just as helpful/stress-relieving as autopilot in stop and go traffic jam scenarios. Only real difference appears to be you actually steer yourself rather than just keep hands detectable on the wheel.


----------



## Dogwhistle (Jul 2, 2017)

Because if you’re still lugging an ICE around with you everywhere you go, you haven’t won yet.


----------



## justflie (May 9, 2018)

Guessing on the first two questions but I’d say yes to v3 and no to premium. 

Safety features like auto emergency braking are standard (maybe side impact avoidance, too). Convenience features such as traffic aware cc and auto steering require the enhanced autopilot upgrade.


----------



## Dr. J (Sep 1, 2017)

ebotrd said:


> what safety features would come if I don't opt to pay the extra $5k for autopilot?


Autopilot (standard):










Enhanced Autopilot
Option Selected$5,000
Additional features, including:

Auto Lane Change
Autosteer
Traffic-Aware Cruise Control
Autopark
Summon


----------



## John (Apr 16, 2016)

Lovesword said:


> @ebotrd Yes the no gas is awesome! I got myself the Ego Power Plus lawn equipment and snow blower (still need to sell and part ways with the gas snow blower to deal the final blow!).
> 
> I did a google search on "did chevy pay back the bailout money" and read a bit, looks like they did as you said. There's just other aspects to it that I completely disagree with, "too big to fail," the plan in general, even in how they repaid the loan (after doing some reading). It's all just my opinion on the matter so I'll stop there, but you are correct... they did repay the loan.
> 
> I think lastly I'll add that everything has value. It seems most evident here that each individual assigns a value to things in their life and applies their logic to all things. That's what makes us all unique. My wife and I have owned our home for some years, but we have zero wall art. I don't own a motorcycle, boat, RV, any type of recreational vehicle, I don't hunt, own or go to a camp ground or anything. I've assigned value to those things as not necessary where as I looked at this Tesla Model 3 purchase as something I wanted. I need a car, that much is true, and any old thing could get me where I need to be, however this purchase was about enjoying something that I value and deciding that for myself it was worth the cost. I really do think you get your monies worth with this vehicle though.


The government eventually sold the stock they took for the bailout and sold it for a loss to the taxpayers of about $11 billion.


----------



## John (Apr 16, 2016)

ebotrd said:


> Hopefully i won't be dismembered on this forum but...
> I actually have a hard time understanding why folks are willing to spend so much more for Model 3.
> I'd love to hear your thoughts on the matter!


Sounds like you are in "practical transportation mode." I know that territory well.

Until the Model 3 our family was SUPER practical about cars. At one point we owned 3 Priuses (Prii?) at once in the 2008-2009 body style because they were super spacious, got 50 mpg, had leather seats and a large (for then) central navigation screen. And a rather spartan interior with no gu. All of our kids learned to drive on them, and we kept common spare parts.










You couldn't really say they were fun to drive-they made me miss the handling of German cars mightily. But there were very practical. You can still find ones driven as second cars with < 100K miles on them that cost less than $10K. And they require very little maintenance beyond tires and oil. Cheap, reliable miles. And check out that sweet CD player.

You've already said that you don't appreciate performance as much as others may. So let me represent the tech viewpoint.

Do you also cut costs on tech stuff in your life? Your phone, your laptop? My family spending values tilt heavily towards tools and tech. The kids have always literally been told: "We will buy you any tool." And we allow them to choose their own phone and laptop.It's expensive, but they are tools of modern life that we don't want them to ever feel "behind" in.

I say that by way of explaining that to us, the tech in Model 3 matters a lot, it matters the most, and it stands out like a beacon. It pulled us out of our "cheap miles" car strategy. We popped in a reservation hoping for typical Tesla tech at a more practical price point, and we were very pleased by what they came up with in Model 3.

Getting software updates like our phones and laptops do? Check (just got Summon today, btw).

Giant traffic-aware internet map with satellite view and auto-rerouting? Check.

Modern streaming music and internet radio? Check (though they will continue to improve...please).

Water-cooled processor running neural net-equipped driving assistance functions? Check.

So let me roll in the car that finally does tech right. The original "software first" car of our age.










The first car ever that has exactly no buttons or levers that stay in place-they are all momentary-so that the physical world and the software world can easily stay in sync.

Other manufacturers are going to learn that at some point recently the software in cars became more important than the hardware, and this effect is accelerating. Most of Tesla's engineers are software engineers, and that is both as apparent as the modern screen and as deeply important as the battery management.

What other car does the tech so well?

On the other hand, if your reaction is, "GM cars have big screens, I use my phone for all that stuff, and I wouldn't trust Autopilot anyway," then we can rule tech out as an important buying criteria for you.

My family? We're spending on this.


----------



## ebotrd (Jul 5, 2018)

Thanks Dr. J. - yes that's it. And sorr everyone, I did study up and find it in the Model 3 Manual here 
https://www.tesla.com/content/dam/tesla/Ownership/Own/Model 3 Owners Manual.pdf

These Autopilot safety features are available on *all *Model 3 vehicles:
• Lane Assist (see Lane Assist on page 77).
• Collision Avoidance Assist (see Collision Avoidance Assist on page 79).
• Speed Assist (see Speed Assist on page 82).
• Auto High Beam (see High Beam Headlights on page 46).

These convenience features, designed to reduce driver workload, are *available only if your Tesla vehicle is equipped with the optional Enhanced Autopilot or Full Self Driving Capability packages*:
• Traffic-Aware Cruise Control (see TrafficAware Cruise Control on page 61).
• Autosteer (see Autosteer on page 67).
• Auto Lane Change

Aw, man! So this is another tough one. I could _*really*_ see appreciating Traffic-Aware Cruise Control in M3, but that's another $5k.
I read up on premium Volt's "Adaptive Cruise Control" and other safety features and they seem like they'd be just as pleasing to have. But then I also checked how much extra that "ACC" truly costs (here it says $40,500)...Autotrader shows several near me with ACC for $33,500 after GM incentives. Assuming -$7500 tax credit on both...
Volt = $26k
M3 = $46.5k
...$20,500 delta. Wow.



Dr. J said:


> But you bought a Model X, which costs, what...>$100K?


Yeah, so the deal is that's completely my wife's car -- we're polar opposites on spending vs saving. We eventually figured out we need to compartmentalize this stuff to live together and have gotten pretty good at it -- nearing our 20th anniversary! I'm more generous with spending on her and the kids than on myself (of course). I squirrel away all this money for safety net and financial independence dream but the reality is I could probably retire happily on social security alone if I were solo...but I insist upon having her covered too. She can also dip into her parents' generosity (which apparently has no limits). After years of inching towards more and more compromise with her "spend it now" approach, I was ready to plop down about the equivalent of a new Odyssey (or used Model S) when she wanted to upgrade from a perfectly good 9 year old Odyssey. I love the X, but voted strongly against it due to price (yes, over $100k for inventory model). Her parents (also wowed by Model X) pitched in the difference. Definitely her car, but I do get to drive it when we go out together.


----------



## justflie (May 9, 2018)

You have the facts at this point. I think your best bet is to schedule a test drive and check it out for yourself (and report back the results!).


----------



## KarenRei (Jul 27, 2017)

George Matook said:


> Guessing on the first two questions but I'd say yes to v3 and no to premium.
> 
> Safety features like auto emergency braking are standard (maybe side impact avoidance, too). Convenience features such as traffic aware cc and auto steering require the enhanced autopilot upgrade.


I thought it was in the Q1 call transcript, but I guess not, so I'm not sure where I remember it from... but I recall Musk stating that early Model Ss won't be able to take advantage of higher supercharging powers, but that any of their newer EVs could benefit from a more powerful supercharger. Which makes sense; I doubt they'd short-change the charger wiring rather than have the batteries be the limit. Wherever you see a flat-top (or slowly-up-angling plateau) in a charging curve, that's almost certainly a charger limit, not a vehicle limit. And the vehicle could almost certainly take more power at that point. However, no amount of charger power will let the vehicle charge any faster once it's already begun tapering.

To put it another way, I'd expect V2 to be a huge help for LR under ~35%, a small help for LR from 35-50% and for SR under 35%, and no help outside of this.


----------



## justflie (May 9, 2018)

Karen, you're right, that's where I heard it. He also described the charging speed increases he expected to get which I think were 3-4 times faster than what we have now. Something to that effect. Whatever it was, it was significant. I can't remember if he addressed a premium for charging at higher speeds but I don't think he did.

Edit: early rollout plan is to double charge speed. Longer term (which is I think 2 or 3 years in their terminology) is 3-4 times faster. https://electrek.co/2018/06/06/tesla-pushes-supercharger-v3-expansion-batteries-solar/


----------



## KarenRei (Jul 27, 2017)

Yes, V3 will be 200-250kW, according to Musk. 300-400kW is a longer-term goal. Tesla has rightly pursued $/kWh as its #1 battery goal, followed by Wh/kg, and with W/kg way further down the list. Making batteries cheaper is the most important task facing EVs, bar none. You can always up charge rates (mph/kph) by adding more batteries to the car


----------



## Dr. J (Sep 1, 2017)

ebotrd said:


> Thanks Dr. J. - yes that's it. And sorr everyone, I did study up and find it in the Model 3 Manual here
> https://www.tesla.com/content/dam/tesla/Ownership/Own/Model 3 Owners Manual.pdf
> 
> These Autopilot safety features are available on *all *Model 3 vehicles:
> ...


Well, clearly the solution is for her to buy you a loaded Model 3. Problem solved!


----------



## SD-Prof (Oct 1, 2017)

My wife and I own a 2016 Volt, 2016 Model S 75D, and a 2018 Model 3 with Enhanced Auto Pilot. Here are a few Volt vs. 3 differences that _I don't believe others mentioned_. Many of these comments are subjective.

Pro-Volt (relative to Model 3):

Hatchback -- easier to load awkward items such as bikes or twin stroller
Worry (far) less about parking lot dings so tend to drive it in tight urban settings such as going to Trader Joes
Never have to instruct passengers on how to enter or exit car
Has Apple Car Play
Some pieces feel higher quality than 3, e.g., glovebox, console pieces
Can get by with 110 for overnight charging (as always have gas backup)
Paddle on steering wheel allows extra braking regeneration, which is addictive. I reach for it when driving the 3.
Nice (IMHO) cloth seats in base model
Has a key (for those who experience frustration with their model 3 phone key)
Option for true blindspot monitoring
Con-Volt (relative to Model 3):

Sometimes has a burning oil smell when operating on gas, especially after months of only operating on electric
Slower acceleration
Feels even slower and noisier operating on gas, which is quite irritating when used to smooth, quiet electric power
Low front end clearance; easy to hit (and damage) rubber air dam
Less interior passenger space in general and backseat really only has room for two -- but seats themselves have better padding (than my early 2018 VIN)
No front trunk
No space under trunk deck
No "hold" feature when at a stop light
No lumbar or power seats in base model Volt -- but seats still generally comfortable
Fewer remote phone features (like keyless entry, etc)
Knowing you are carrying around all of the infrastructure of an ICE vehicle even though you are mostly not using it!
AND all of the positives about the Model 3 mentioned above
While I overwhelmingly prefer the Model 3, the Volt is a good, 'safe' entry to electric vehicles.


----------



## garsh (Apr 4, 2016)

Somebody at work just bought a Bolt. One of the issues they listed was:

_Radio turns on when I start the car, after a nav direction, and after ending a phone call....
regardless of what I might have been listening to shortly before
_
_I have the same problem with my Volt - really irritating._​
Have any other Volt/Bolt owners had this issue too?


----------



## ebotrd (Jul 5, 2018)

Thanks Dr. J. - yes that's it. And sorry everyone, but I finally did study up and find it in the Model 3 Manual here 
https://www.tesla.com/content/dam/tesla/Ownership/Own/Model 3 Owners Manual.pdf

These Autopilot safety features are available on *all *Model 3 vehicles:
• Lane Assist (see Lane Assist on page 77).
• Collision Avoidance Assist (see Collision Avoidance Assist on page 79).
• Speed Assist (see Speed Assist on page 82).
• Auto High Beam (see High Beam Headlights on page 46).

These convenience features, designed to reduce driver workload, are *available only if your Tesla vehicle is equipped with the optional Enhanced Autopilot or Full Self Driving Capability packages*:
• Traffic-Aware Cruise Control (see TrafficAware Cruise Control on page 61).
• Autosteer (see Autosteer on page 67).
• Auto Lane Change

Aw, man! So this is another tough one. I could _*really*_ see appreciating Traffic-Aware Cruise Control in M3, but that's another $5k...so now it's Volt $26k vs M3 $46.5k. I read up on Volt's "Adaptive Cruise Control" and other safety features and they seem like they'd be just as pleasing to have for much lower cost.



Dr. J said:


> But you bought a Model X, which costs, what...>$100K?


Yeah, so the deal is that's completely my wife's car -- we're polar opposites on spending vs saving. In hindsight the signs were all there, but this was still pretty subtle when we were dating but became painfully obvious pretty quickly after we got married. Eventually we figured out that we needed to compartmentalize stuff. I needed there to be a budget - she needed it to be a bigger budget, we found a compromise we could both live with. I'm more generous with spending on her and the kids than on myself. She can also dip into her parents' generosity (which apparently has no limits). Already long story I'll make a bit shorter - I love Tesla but was against the X due to price (yes, over $100k), but I was ready to plop down about the equivalent of a new Odyssey (or used Model S) towards the "cause". Her parents (also wowed by Model X) added the difference. Definitely her car, but I do get to drive it when we go places together, and can borrow solo it in a pinch.


----------



## ebotrd (Jul 5, 2018)

UPDATE: 
I just took a 2nd look at 2018 Volt today, and same day looked over the Model 3 closely again (2nd time) to compare.
My right brain (relatively weak, but still alive) is trying to convince my dominant left brain with these admittedly-totally-contrived calculations. I'm a super-thrifty guy that, being honest, could afford either car. These justifications will (should?) probably only work on someone who could afford either car. Not sure this will work on left brain, but anyway, here goes...

Model 3 is worth $5k more to me for it's "future-proofness" -- compared to most cars, with all the cameras, sensors, and gadgets, and the continuous improvements through over the air updates, all Tesla's are noticeably ahead and deserve at least a $5k premium (even to a cheap guy like me).

Model 3 is worth $4k more to me for all the little niceties vs other EVs and hybrids (I primarily compared to Volt but also looked closely at BMW i3, and know a good bit about Leaf too)...figure each item is worth $500 to $1000 each if they could be chosen a la cart...Camper mode longer/more cargo space (I'm 6'2" and can lie down flat with rear seats down, if I lie diagonally), glass roof, auto seat adjust, nav better, better 5th seat, no gas ever/no smog check.

Model 3 is worth maybe $5k(?) more to me because I really think the M3 will depreciate slower than the other EV's including Volt. This argument's a little more tenuous, I'll concede, but I think this mostly due to a combination of the future-proof items mentioned above, but also the minimalist design should stand the test of time better, and Tesla's batteries and drive units are expected to last many 100's of thousands of miles (battery ties with Volt in my mind). This argument was based on Model S depreciation data I saw - I think it's fair to assume M3 depreciation will look fairly similar. Figure long term owners selling 8-10y later could get a bit better resale value vs a 10y old Chevy Volt/other. Even if they both depreciated equally by 90% in 10 years, M3's worth $5k, Volt only $3500.

This part's trickier to me -- Chevy Volt's adaptive cruise control (I finally got to test today) is quite comparable to EAP's TACC (which I've also used many times). Tesla's EAP requires $5k higher pric, but if you do pay it, I think EAP overall is better than what Chevy can offer. Chevy's lane keep assist, for example, is quite lame compared to EAP. EAP is also, of course, expected to just get better and better - in the Volt, you're stuck with what you've got until you buy the next Volt. So EAP I'll say is worth possibly $2-3k to me. Still not $5k, but close. I may not get it.

I'm still shopping it, but I think the fully loaded Chevy Volt with adaptive cruise control and pretty much all their offerings is $35000 (after every incentive I'm eligible for). Lowest possible price for all that seems to be $33500, but I think the extra $1500 discount is only available to those with a GM lease in the family (we don't have one). M3 LR premium is $49000. There's a $14k difference (before tax credit(s) for either)...right in line with my list of right-brain justifications! (No, I didn't plan that).

Adding EAP it's a $19k difference, so a bit more still than all my justifications...but fairly close I guess. 
Right brain says to left brain: "Just work a few MORE extra shifts to make it happen!".
Left brain flatly retorts: "You don't need a new car in the first place :/"

Telsa reps pointed out I could wait for standard-range and save $9000. 220 miles is still way plenty for my day to day needs, and I could still road-trip, just with that much more stops/time/hassle - but those trips are so rare. But, I'd be getting half the tax credit at best then so the discount ends up being way less. The $9000 for 90 miles range has always seemed worth it to me. And the premium M3 interior is a more fair comparable to Volt Premier.


----------



## SoFlaModel3 (Apr 15, 2017)

ebotrd said:


> UPDATE:
> I just took a 2nd look at 2018 Volt today, and same day looked over the Model 3 closely again (2nd time) to compare.
> My right brain (relatively weak, but still alive) is trying to convince my dominant left brain with these admittedly-totally-contrived calculations. I'm a super-thrifty guy that, being honest, could afford either car. These justifications will (should?) probably only work on someone who could afford either car. Not sure this will work on left brain, but anyway, here goes...
> 
> ...


Important note - you don't get TACC without EAP.


----------



## flyeaglesfly (May 14, 2018)

I almost waited for the SR because I have a short daily commute and could charge on my 110V outlet and be fine, but I was inpatient and got the LR because it was available first. We took it for it’s first, short, road trip yesterday, with the primary goal of trying a super charger and the full day justified by visiting family just far enough away to make it necessary. The range was much better than expected, and we could’ve actually made it home without stopping, but the whole point was to try a super charger, so we did. From that, all I have to say is do not underestimate the value of that super charger network. It was an awesome experience. 15 minutes or so for everyone to go to the bathroom, and me to get a caffeinated beverage for the rest of the ride, and we had added 150 mi of range for less than $5.We got home and I’ll charge the rest of the way on my 110V between last night and tonight.

I don’t know how to calculate a dollar amount for it, but it’s something to add to the list of “pros”.


----------



## BigBri (Jul 16, 2016)

The 3 to me wasn't an intelligent purchase. Moreso then a gas vehicle but it's still a car and cars aren't investments. I've long drooled over every Model S I've seen. I've calculated the payments and downpayment and configured a Model S dozens of times and never been able to make it work. So I decided to live the dream and go ahead and get the 3. If you asked me when I placed my deposit 2 years ago if I'd ever buy a car that was near 80 thousand bucks I'd say never. Fast forward a few years and I've done it and no regrets so far.

Thing to remember when comparing cars is the battery pack. The more battery the more expensive. The pack in the 3 probably has a 30 thousand dollar retail(CAD), maybe more? Some people will value the massive battery and some would rather the smaller battery of the Volt but the flexibility of the gas engine.


----------



## ebotrd (Jul 5, 2018)

SoFlaModel3 said:


> Important note - you don't get TACC without EAP.


Definitely true. I keep hearing how folks feel more relaxed using EAP on long drives, but haven't driven our X (has EAP) enough to quite understand that. Really I think the best/safest way to look at it is that you're still totally watching/engaged, but you can let your arm muscles rest a lot more. Every time I hear the details about one of those accidents it sounds like the driver was watching DVDs or climbing in the back seat or something! With my new job, driving 2 hours a day often, I might decide EAP's worth it. I'm going to take the DW's X to work next week (for the 1st time) and try to figure out how much I'll appreciate it. There's about 15 min of bumper-to-bumper traffic each way that I can test it on, and a lot of boring highway...will try to figure out if it has the de-stressing effect folks say it does. Volt ACC will de-stress these just as much in my view - you just actually steer Volt vs (supposed to) always be ready to steer M3.


BigBri said:


> The more battery the more expensive.


For sure. The LR upgrade cost is a tough one - I feel it's the best value out there for EV range, and there's definitely value to having more range, faster supercharging, and I feel that helps future-proof it, and adds to resale value should you ever sell. Since M3 was announced, I figured I'd go $35k version or $44k for LR, so long as I could take the tax credit. The PUP I could shrug off, but if I can only get the tax credit by adding it, I guess that makes more sense.


flyeaglesfly said:


> do not underestimate the value of that super charger network.


Oh, totally! I guess my conflict is that I'm hyper-practical/thrifty. But when I search deep down, I do want to go all-electric (BEV) some day. I can be very patient/delay gratification, but I would of course love to scratch that itch sooner than later. Long-range/road-trip-worthy BEV's (the only type I'd consider) will remain a financially impractical desire for some time - with luck, a base M3 can be had late 2019, so that helps, but no tax credit, so I'd really only save $6500, and give up the LR and PUP to save that $6500...seems like a dumb move even for cheap guy. Otherwise, we'll be waiting several more years I'm sure. Buying my used '12 Volt (in 2015 for $11k) was a great stepping stone - had a 13 year old Ford Focus (bought as a salvage) that oddly only seemed to get about 20mpg, so after 3 years owning it, gas savings alone have equaled half it's cost. That move satisfied my EV craving in large part and was/is practical, and it's not my nature to consider switching cars again so quickly.

So I think I eventually want a Model 3-caliber (or better) EV -- the tax credit piques my interest now, and will start halving New Years Eve, but I'd also never before consider buying a car over $40k...my '12 Volt at $11k was by far my most expensive car purchase ever. If I wait at least 3 more years, I'm sure great deals on used Model 3's will be common; Model Y may be on the list if it speaks to me and is priced low enough, or one of Tesla's many EV competitors when they catch up. For now though, M3 is the only BEV I'll realistically consider. How much will a used base, SR M3 sell for in 3-4 years? Maybe $25k+/-?...and it's warranty coverage will be running out, I'll have blown $3-4k gassing up my old Volt, and I'll have gone foregone 3-4 years of more pleasurable driving in a safer car.

Also so far, I'd only trust Chevy and Tesla for battery tech, and only Tesla has the Superchargers and gets me 100% electric. Bolt is a great option to have, and I should really learn more about it (really?! - a spray-jet to keep your backup camera clean?), but I know its charging infrastructure is definitely lacking/impractical for road trips and the cost vs M3 isn't all that much lower, so it doesn't feel like a good long-term fit.

There's a limit though. For context, my wife's X seems like a very wasteful indulgence to me - way too much money for transport, though of course I love that at least it's all-electric. She does really need something big for "soccer mom" status, carting around our kids and their friends, and she much prefers sitting up high in a minivan/SUV. My dream scenario for her was the Chrysler Pacifica hybrid (less than half the cost of the X), which sounds like the Volt concept in minivan form. I even got her to look at one. But sadly, she just wasn't having it. She told me if I wanted it that bad I should buy it as my car LOL.


----------



## BigBri (Jul 16, 2016)

ebotrd said:


> For sure. The LR upgrade cost is a tough one - I feel it's the best value out there for EV range, and there's definitely value to having more range, faster supercharging, and I feel that helps future-proof it, and adds to resale value should you ever sell. Since M3 was announced, I figured I'd go $35k version or $44k for LR, so long as I could take the tax credit. The PUP I could shrug off, but if I can only get the tax credit by adding it, I guess that makes more sense.


LR was a tough pill to swallow as I didn't need that range. Our government appeared to be switching hands so I opted to hedge my bets and get LR anyway. If the 14k incentive did go away then I'd have been missing LR for essentially free and sure enough the rebate has been canceled. I didn't want to be right but in this case I was. Still is a 64k vehicle with the rebate. Hurt my thrifty brain and heart to get it but happy I did haha. Spent the 2 months leading upto delivery calculating the financial impact more than a few times a week.


----------



## ebotrd (Jul 5, 2018)

BigBri said:


> Spent the 2 months leading upto delivery calculating the financial impact


Yep, that'll be me. Still not sure what I'll do. RIght now the configurator says I'd get my $49k M3 in 3 months at the latest, so I'll probably sit and think for another month or so - maybe another configuration option will come up or something by then.


----------



## PNWmisty (Aug 19, 2017)

Lovesword said:


> I think lastly I'll add that everything has value. It seems most evident here that each individual assigns a value to things in their life and applies their logic to all things. That's what makes us all unique. My wife and I have owned our home for some years, but we have zero wall art. I don't own a motorcycle, boat, RV, any type of recreational vehicle, I don't hunt, own or go to a camp ground or anything. I've assigned value to those things as not necessary where as I looked at this Tesla Model 3 purchase as something I wanted. I need a car, that much is true, and any old thing could get me where I need to be, however this purchase was about enjoying something that I value and deciding that for myself it was worth the cost. I really do think you get your monies worth with this vehicle though.




I like the way you think. Own a few really nice things, things you will actually enjoy, rather than "keeping up with the Jones".


----------



## PNWmisty (Aug 19, 2017)

ebotrd said:


> UPDATE:
> I just took a 2nd look at 2018 Volt today, and same day looked over the Model 3 closely again (2nd time) to compare.
> My right brain (relatively weak, but still alive) is trying to convince my dominant left brain with these admittedly-totally-contrived calculations. I'm a super-thrifty guy that, being honest, could afford either car. These justifications will (should?) probably only work on someone who could afford either car.
> 
> Telsa reps pointed out I could wait for standard-range and save $9000. 220 miles is still way plenty for my day to day needs, and I could still road-trip, just with that much more stops/time/hassle - but those trips are so rare. But, I'd be getting half the tax credit at best then so the discount ends up being way less. The $9000 for 90 miles range has always seemed worth it to me. And the premium M3 interior is a more fair comparable to Volt Premier.


My $0.02: If you are going to buy a new car, do it right, get the Model 3. If you're not getting the Model 3, don't buy a new car. Same thing said two different ways.


----------



## ebotrd (Jul 5, 2018)

PNWmisty said:


> If you're not getting the Model 3, don't buy a new car.


Yes, those 2 choices are tied for first place. I really like the idea of sitting tight with my old reliable Volt, and keeping an eye out for a used good condition Model 3, LR, PUP, autopilot in a few years. What do you all think they'll be selling for in say mid-2021? With maybe 50-100k miles on them?.


----------



## PNWmisty (Aug 19, 2017)

ebotrd said:


> Yes, those 2 choices are tied for first place. I really like the idea of sitting tight with my old reliable Volt, and keeping an eye out for a used good condition Model 3, LR, PUP, autopilot in a few years. What do you all think they'll be selling for in say mid-2021? With maybe 50-100k miles on them?.


We can only guess but Tesla's have some of the highest resale values in the industry. So I wouldn't expect normal depreciation of a car in this class, it should depreciate more slowly.


----------



## ebotrd (Jul 5, 2018)

Uggghh. 
+1 for Volt with ACC -- I found a deal on one for only $30,200! So that makes the price difference $18k.
But also...
+1 for M3 as I just looked at the map of planned new supercharger locations and there's one right along my route to work - reassuring "just in case".

_*Does anyone think Tesla will offer M3 with basic interior in the next several weeks? *_ I really could care less about that stuff in the PUP. That would close the gap to $13k.

LR battery I could also do fine without, but doubt they'll offer standard battery this year.
EAP is a tougher choice, but certainly I could opt out of it and then we're only at $8k difference between the 2 cars (after all the adjustments up/down with sales tax, tax rebates/credits, gas savings and the rest).

If the Volt+ACC was sitting next to a Model 3 standard/base with no upgrades, I think I'd still be willing to pay $5k to $10k to just go with the M3.


----------



## garsh (Apr 4, 2016)

ebotrd said:


> _*Does anyone think Tesla will offer M3 with basic interior in the next several weeks? *_ I really could care less about that stuff in the PUP. That would close the gap to $13k.
> 
> LR battery I could also do fine without, but doubt they'll offer standard battery this year.


My best guess is that the introduce standard interior at the same time as standard battery, and both are scheduled to start shipping around December. If you're not already on the Model 3 waiting list, then you won't be able to take delivery until next year.


----------



## Dr. J (Sep 1, 2017)

ebotrd said:


> _*Does anyone think Tesla will offer M3 with basic interior in the next several weeks? *_ I really could care less about that stuff in the PUP. That would close the gap to $13k.


No one I've found. The reasoning is: Tesla is making too much money on PUP and it's too difficult/costly to alter the mfg line to include that before SR arrives. The only thing that changes that, I believe, is that the queue of people who take the current offerings diminishes so that Tesla has to offer it to keep selling cars. I have no idea how likely that outcome is, but my guess is: not in the next several weeks.


----------



## ebotrd (Jul 5, 2018)

garsh said:


> If you're not already on the Model 3 waiting list, then you won't be able to take delivery until next year.


No, I'm good to go. I was invited to configure in June. I just checked again and I'd take delivery in 2-4 months. Ordering without PUP would make the decision just easier enough for me...but not worth risking 1/2 the federal rebate in my mind. If delivery time stays 2-4 months though I should really decide by mid August to be safe.


----------



## JimmT (Aug 1, 2017)

I'm pretty thrifty/practical as well when it comes to cars; I drove my last car for over 18 years. I bought the M3 only after a lot of thought, plus my existing car was on its last legs.

Based on my configuration (LR, PUP, custom color), the difference between SR and LR was $6K due to the halved Fed tax credit. The additional range is definitely worth the cost IMHO simply due to convenience (less charging). 

If you amortize the extra cost of the M3 over the 10-15 years (how long I plan to keep mine), the cost isn't that bad.

One final thing, you won't know how fun it is to drive the M3 until you have it. I've always looked upon driving as an utilitarian exercise, i.e., to get to work or wherever I'm going. The M3 has totally changed my outlook, I love to drive the car now and will look for any excuse to take it out for a spin. It's really that fun to drive and I don't think you'll get the same experience from the Volt. Just my $.02.


----------



## BostonPilot (Aug 14, 2018)

Thought I'd add my perspective on Volt vs M3...

We had a BEV (Honda Fit EV) which I thought was a great little car. Rated at about 85 miles (but wouldn't do much more than 40-50 in the winter). Basically got it for my teenage daughters... No arguments about who needs to buy gas ;-)

Well, one of them crashed it (into my car, totaling both!). They asked that I NOT get them another BEV. They really didn't like having to figure out how far they could go, where they might be able to recharge, etc. As a pilot, I'm pretty used to doing that on every flight, but I get that the average person doesn't think that way.

So, I got a 2013 used Volt. It was 3 years old, obviously coming off a lease. $13,000. Not bad for a 35-40k car.

Meanwhile I have my M3P+ on order. I've always had sports cars. The last few have been Toyota Supercharged MR2 and Subaru STi.

I wouldn't want a Volt for myself for a few reasons. It's a small car (4 place). It's a hatchback while I need a lockable trunk. It really doesn't handle well at all. If you try some sharp turns with the steering wheel it kind of wallows. I could actually see someone losing control if they had to swerve. It's front wheel drive (which is okay, but I prefer either RWD or AWD). The range of the Volt on electricity is less than I would like. When I drive carefully (avoiding highways) I get 42 miles. Lots of trips it ends up having to run the gas engine for a handful of miles. I'd rather go all electric. I'd actually prefer a smaller engine and a 15KWh battery to get more like 60 miles of electric range, but I'm sure GM had their reasons for picking the battery size. The on-board charger is ridiculously slow. I see the newest ('18 or '19? finally have a faster charger). When running on gas I get about 40 mpg which isn't terrible, but it's not great either.

It's an ok car for $13,000 but I don't think it's worth what a new one costs.

Meanwhile I test drove the M3P+ recently and it handles well. With some aftermarket parts I'm hoping to get it to handle great. Lots of power, but really I would have been happy with just the RWD amount of power, as long as it handles well. With the 20" wheels and big summer tires, I'm assuming I'll get closer to 240 miles range, but that should be fine. I've pre-planned a few trips as a test and the Supercharger network should be able to support that kind of range.

If I had a more limited budget and I really wanted an EV without having to have a backup gasoline car, a used Volt is a really good choice. It doesn't meet my desire for a sporty car, but as a value proposition, it makes a great commuting car if your commute is less than 50 miles (or more if you can charge at work). The ability to use the gas engine and get good if not great milage makes it a good all around car.


----------



## MelindaV (Apr 2, 2016)

the Volt has been killed.
GM Cuts the Volt (and many thousands of jobs)


----------



## iChris93 (Feb 3, 2017)

MelindaV said:


> the Volt has been killed.
> GM Cuts the Volt (and many thousands of jobs)


Yet somehow their stock is up 5% today?


----------



## BluestarE3 (Oct 12, 2017)

MelindaV said:


> the Volt has been killed.
> GM Cuts the Volt (and many thousands of jobs)


First, the EV1 and now the Volt.


----------



## justflie (May 9, 2018)

MelindaV said:


> the Volt has been killed.
> GM Cuts the Volt (and many thousands of jobs)


Long love the Volt. It was a great bridge car for me. Sad to see it go. Hopefully that means they're all in on the Bolt.


----------



## Bokonon (Apr 13, 2017)

justflie said:


> Long love the Volt. It was a great bridge car for me. Sad to see it go. Hopefully that means they're all in on the Bolt.


... and a robust, nationwide charging network to support it. 

As a former Volt driver, this news saddens and baffles me. The Volt was my gateway drug to EVs, and is still the first plug-in hybrid that I recommend to anyone who absolutely, positively cannot commit themselves to an EV. The Volt has been the range leader in the PHEV segment from day 1, and remains one of the few PHEVs that is actually an EV first and a hybrid second regardless of speed and requested power.

To squander these competitive advantages at a time when the market for PHEVs is expanding is the kind of short-sighted move that you'd expect from, well, an American car company not named Tesla.


----------



## garsh (Apr 4, 2016)

If GM is smart, they'll use Volt technology in an SUV.

Cars just don't sell well in North America anymore.


----------



## BluestarE3 (Oct 12, 2017)

garsh said:


> Cars just don't sell well in North America anymore.


Unless the car is one of those with a stylized "T" emblem on the hood.


----------



## iChris93 (Feb 3, 2017)

BluestarE3 said:


> First, the EV1 and now the Volt.


At least they aren't recalling and crushing them.


----------



## KarenRei (Jul 27, 2017)

It is a weird choice. I've never owned a Volt, but I've seen how much Volt owners liked their cars. Of all companies, GM needs to be particularly careful to avoid killing off electric vehicles without something "equivalent but better" to replace them.


----------



## garsh (Apr 4, 2016)

KarenRei said:


> It is a weird choice. I've never owned a Volt, but I've seen how much Volt owners liked their cars. Of all companies, GM needs to be particularly careful to avoid killing off electric vehicles without something "equivalent but better" to replace them.


It sounds like they're going to continue investing in electric cars, but of course they don't provide details like we get from Tesla.

GM kills the Chevy Volt, shuts down factories, but accelerates EV investment


----------



## BostonPilot (Aug 14, 2018)

KarenRei said:


> It is a weird choice. I've never owned a Volt, but I've seen how much Volt owners liked their cars. Of all companies, GM needs to be particularly careful to avoid killing off electric vehicles without something "equivalent but better" to replace them.


Of course, from GM's standpoint it's not how much the owners like the cars, it's how many people buy the car. And from that standpoint, the Volt hasn't been doing that well.

I predict, with all the other car companies coming out with PHEVs, GM will use the Volt technology to produce a PHEV SUV. I'd be shocked if they simply walked away from the Volt technology, it's pretty good (I have one for my daughters to drive). Also, if you have a limited supply of batteries, and you like selling ICE engines, it's a great product to sell... You only need 10 kWh worth of battery per car you sell, and the dealers are happy because they still get to do all the little service items that make them money... From a service standpoint it's the worst of all worlds (for the consumer) because it has all the complexity of an ICE, _plus_ all the extra stuff for the BEV...

Despite what a lot of the BEV purists think, I think a generation of PHEV will be necessary to get the average person to drive an electric car. As *Bokonon *said, it's a gateway vehicle for those who aren't ready to drink a full cup of BEV Koolaid.


----------



## Gavyne (Jul 7, 2018)

I think PHEV is on borrowed time. In about 3-4 years, there will be no reason to entry with PHEV since there will be plenty of BEV choices and prices will be affordable. Lots of BEV SUV/CUV's are slated to come out in 2019-2020. If VW is half as successful as what they're set out to do, there will be plenty of BEV's for everybody at a lower price range. And of course you'll still have Tesla ruling the $35k - $90k market for BEV's. And and...Rivian's 100% BEV truck reveal was super impressive. If they can launch on time and have specs anywhere near what they revealed, there will be zero reason to purchase a PHEV or ICE truck.

In my opinion putting resources into producing more PHEV's isn't the way to go. GM won't be able to compete with Toyota's market. GM needs to go full in with electric if they want to survive in 3-4 years.

By the way, this is huge:


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1067494680416407552

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1067494682249318402


----------



## BostonPilot (Aug 14, 2018)

Gavyne said:


> I think PHEV is on borrowed time. In about 3-4 years, there will be no reason to entry with PHEV since there will be plenty of BEV choices and prices will be affordable.


I'm a little more pessimistic than you. I think a lot of people will be reluctant to go full BEV right away. A car is a big investment for many people, and lots will be very cautious about trying a BEV. I've met plenty of them while evangelizing BEVs... For every worry/objection they voice, you can tell them the facts, or a workaround, and some people simply will not be convinced. There will be plenty of people who are worried about charging, etc. that will feel much more secure buying a vehicle that has a backup ICE. While I think there will be a rapid changeover to BEV, I think "rapid" is more like 10-15 years as much as I'd like to see it happen more quickly.

There's also the point that current BEV won't work for lots of people for another decade or two. If you don't live where you can install a charger, or you live in the western United States, or you need (or want) to tow over non-trivial distances, current BEVs might not work for you. In that case, I'd rather have you buy a PHEV than another ICE... Besides, not only is PHEV a way for _people_ to get used to driving electric cars, it may be the way forward for the _manufacturers_ to ease into producing electric vehicles... Chevrolet being an example...

If a company (like, everybody except Tesla?) doesn't have a supply of batteries sufficient for the number of cars they need to produce, PHEV is a way to stretch the battery supply. If 12 kWh batteries + a range extender work, a manufacturer may be able to stretch their available battery supply to extend to 5 times as many vehicles compared to shipping a 60 kWh battery in each car... You might argue that they _should_ procure sufficient battery supplies, but that may not be something the supply chain can do in 3-4 years... I could easily see it take a decade for the industry as a whole to ramp up sufficient battery production for a complete switchover to BEV.

I hope you're right and I'm wrong, but in my experience, these things always take longer than you think they will, and much longer than you _wish_ they would.


----------



## Gavyne (Jul 7, 2018)

The younger generations are all in with renewable energy and electric vehicles. You don't need to worry about younger people getting their first cars and trying BEV's, they love Teslas. It's the older folks and millennial's that have trouble adjusting and adapting. The fact that Elon and Tesla trends very well with younger generation bodes well for a better future. 

Price and range are the only bottleneck preventing more people from buying BEV's. Price is getting lower and lower each year, $35k Model 3 is almost here, VW will be coming out with their cheap BEV's in a few years. Range is getting better and better each year also, and with a network such as Superchargers, and even electrify american wanting to expand, you won't have range issues soon. Range anxiety is nearly non-existent these days, and Tesla is about to double their Supercharger network within a year.

Regarding PHEV's, PHEV's are not a way for manufacturers to ease into 100% BEV's. PHEV's have been slowing down the advancement of BEV's since forever. PHEV's have been an excuse for automakers such as Toyota, GM, and Ford to not have to put more money into battery technology. They've been playing the status quo game, and they have been happy to sell cars with combustion engines as long as people bought them. When GM & Ford couldn't compete with Toyota anymore on sedans, they simply discontinued them and doubled down on internal combustion engine trucks & SUV's.

Imagine where GM would be today if they didn't anti-sell Bolt and put more research & development into battery tech and electric motor. They could've been the first to come out with a BEV truck, they could be there with Tesla, Jaguar, and soon Audi/Mercedes having BEV SUV's choices. Fact is GM has been anti-selling electric vehicles, their dealership network has been anti-selling electric vehicles. In fact their dealerships are downright hostile towards anybody asking for BEV's. Their whole culture needs to change. More PHEV isn't the way to go for them, that'll only slow them down even further when other automakers are already coming out with 100% EV's. 

Yes they'll lack battery supplies, but that's also their fault. When Tesla went full in and setup their own battery factory and built their own battery tech, people mocked them. But now look at them, they're way ahead, and GM is way behind. We're debating opinions, but the good news is GM themselves said they're going to focus on battery vehicles "GM now intends to prioritize future vehicle investments in its next-generation battery-electric architectures". So at least there's some good news there.


----------



## mswlogo (Oct 8, 2018)

If I was more practical I probably would have bought a Volt (extra glad I didn't now). I was planning to get a Volt, but the additional gadgetry on the Model 3 won me over. And I could afford it. If I couldn't swing the Model 3 the Volt was a bargain. And no, a Short Range Model 3 wouldn't cut it.

I think GM did the right thing, even though it hurts. They probably should have made a more gradual move sooner so it wasn't so painful. I suspect the tariff thing accelerated things for GM and is legitimately part of the equation. Oh and I'm sure GM noticed the sales of Model 3's 

Trump is now threatening to cut GM EV Tax breaks. Tax breaks probably should go to EV Cars made in the USA at this point.


----------



## Karl Sun (Sep 19, 2018)

mswlogo said:


> Trump is now threatening to cut GM EV Tax breaks. Tax breaks probably should go to EV Cars made in the USA at this point.


 Kinda related - Tesla says their cars are 100% US made.

Why is it that every part I've seen on the Mdl3 that has a part number label on it has "Made in Mexico" on the label?


----------



## SR22pilot (Aug 16, 2018)

I think PHEV's could have been a good transition vehicle. The X can tow but are you really going to use it to tow a big trailer across the country? If you are into horses, where is the BEV for towing the horse trailer to shows? Tesla has made a lot of progress and knocked down a lot of barriers but there are still valid reasons for needing something other than a BEV. I expect that to change dramatically over the next 5 years but right now BEV's don't have all bases covered. The Volt probably should have been a crossover. It still lets you use next to zero gas for your daily commute while being able to handle long trips using gas when needed.


----------



## ADK46 (Aug 4, 2018)

My guess is that people will buy vehicles to fit their needs more closely. There are a huge number of pickup trucks out there that never see a sheet of plywood. It’s not a great sacrifice to buy a regular car when that’s all you really need; that is, people will do it if there’s a good reason. But for those who really need a pickup truck, they’ll be available, one way or another. 

Et cetera.

Me - I like having a good range of vehicles. I won’t be tying a mattress to the roof of the Model 3.


----------



## mswlogo (Oct 8, 2018)

ADK46 said:


> My guess is that people will buy vehicles to fit their needs more closely. There are a huge number of pickup trucks out there that never see a sheet of plywood. It's not a great sacrifice to buy a regular car when that's all you really need; that is, people will do it if there's a good reason. But for those who really need a pickup truck, they'll be available, one way or another.
> 
> Et cetera.
> 
> Me - I like having a good range of vehicles. I won't be tying a mattress to the roof of the Model 3.


All we need is Uber driverless utility trucks for those weekend projects. It could even meet you at Home Depot and just follow you home .


----------



## cfcubed (Aug 20, 2018)

Karl Sun said:


> Kinda related - Tesla says their cars are 100% US made.
> 
> Why is it that every part I've seen on the Mdl3 that has a part number label on it has "Made in Mexico" on the label?


Maybe because the 25pct of car parts from Mexico are more visible?


----------



## BostonPilot (Aug 14, 2018)

Gavyne said:


> The younger generations are all in with renewable energy and electric vehicles. You don't need to worry about younger people getting their first cars and trying BEV's, they love Teslas. It's the older folks and millennial's that have trouble adjusting and adapting. The fact that Elon and Tesla trends very well with younger generation bodes well for a better future.


Well, "younger people" can cover a huge age range depending on how old you are, but I can say, with one daughter a year from entering the job market, and another 2 years out, they can't afford a Tesla, and they've had a Honda Fit EV in the past and specifically requested I not get them another BEV (after they crashed the first one). Reason: they didn't want to have to plan charging and range issues. They want the option to just jump in and go, and stop at a gas station when the gauge reads empty. That's the reason I got the Volt (plus, at $13,000 it was a great deal). They have a lot of company... Neither of my sons have charging available where they live, so that pretty much nixes BEV for them. Could they go through a big hassle and charge when not at home? I guess, but the fact is that they won't.

So, yeah, "younger people" may love Teslas. But when it comes to buying a first or second car, most of them will probably go ICE or used ICE/PHEV. If you are out on your own with just a single car, it needs to be able to do 100% of the trips. Most BEV (except for Tesla) won't do that. A brand new Honda Fit (ICE) is $17,500. Gas is cheap right now. The Fit (ICE) is half the cost of a Bolt, has no range issues, no winter issues, and actually fits more stuff inside (you know, like furniture from IKEA)...



Gavyne said:


> Imagine where GM would be today if they didn't anti-sell Bolt and put more research & development into battery tech and electric motor. They could've been the first to come out with a BEV truck, they could be there with Tesla, Jaguar, and soon Audi/Mercedes having BEV SUV's choices. Fact is GM has been anti-selling electric vehicles, their dealership network has been anti-selling electric vehicles. In fact their dealerships are downright hostile towards anybody asking for BEV's. Their whole culture needs to change. More PHEV isn't the way to go for them, that'll only slow them down even further when other automakers are already coming out with 100% EV's.


I guess this demonstrates how much it matters which side of the fence you're on. From most of the early adopter's viewpoint (us) we see the goal as 100% BEV... But other than Tesla, which you must admit is quite unique, the goal of other automobile manufacturers (them) is to make money. They will do whatever it takes to make the most money. If that's anti-sell BEV, yup, they'll do that. But it's kind of funny that you're attacking GM for not doing more R&D... We may not like what they did with the EV1... and in hindsight we might say they should have done a crossover instead of a sedan (cough, cough, Model Y?). But the fact is that they were the first of the traditional auto manufacturers to do what is probably still the best PHEV, and they were the first to bring a BEV to market with decent range while everybody else (Nissan) thought 85 miles was enough (because after all, it's a city car!). So while I have no love for GM, let's not twist the facts to suit our prejudices.



Gavyne said:


> Yes they'll lack battery supplies, but that's also their fault.


Yeah, see, trying to fix blame doesn't get us anywhere. Whether it's their own fault or not doesn't matter. The fact is that some of the traditional manufacturers don't have a supply line that can deliver enough batteries to fully switch their lines over to BEV (whether they want to or not). So, ignore blame. What do they do? What does the CTO of Ford/GM/whatever recommend? One way is for them to drag their feet wrt electrification (but that's going away as an option) and another way for them to electrify their fleet without sufficient batteries is to go PHEV. It's actually pretty impressive what a Chevrolet Volt can do with only 10 kWh of battery... And, properly driven, the PHEV can go almost 100% electric. However, with my daughters, one drives carefully, uses regen to get as much energy back as possible... The other is a leadfoot and couldn't care less about having to run the gas engine. As I said above, gas is cheap, so at 40 mpg it doesn't affect her that much to burn through the electricity by going 80 mph on the highway. I think she has plenty of company out there... The way we fix _that_ behavior is by artificially raising the cost of gas to $5/gallon or more.



mswlogo said:


> I suspect the tariff thing accelerated things for GM and is legitimately part of the equation.


Probably true, but I saw one news report that rings even more true: union negotiations are due just about when the plants are scheduled to close... it may well be that GM is looking for bargaining leverage when it comes time to write a new labor contract.



SR22pilot said:


> I think PHEV's could have been a good transition vehicle. The X can tow but are you really going to use it to tow a big trailer across the country? If you are into horses, where is the BEV for towing the horse trailer to shows? Tesla has made a lot of progress and knocked down a lot of barriers but there are still valid reasons for needing something other than a BEV. I expect that to change dramatically over the next 5 years but right now BEV's don't have all bases covered. The Volt probably should have been a crossover. It still lets you use next to zero gas for your daily commute while being able to handle long trips using gas when needed.


I agree with you 100%. (also, maybe the Model 3 should have been a crossover?) But I like sedans (lockable trunk) so I was happy with the Model 3 being a sedan.


----------



## iChris93 (Feb 3, 2017)

BostonPilot said:


> The way we fix _that_ behavior is by artificially raising the cost of gas to $5/gallon or more.


Getting rid of corn subsidies would help make it less artificial.


----------



## PNWmisty (Aug 19, 2017)

BostonPilot said:


> The way we fix _that_ behavior is by artificially raising the cost of gas to $5/gallon or more.


I completely agree but I wouldn't call $5/gallon "artificially" raising the price. It could be achieved by eliminating every fossil fuel subsidy on the books. Then, if we raise the price further, not artificially, but to cover the true cost of petroleum consumption to society (global warming impacts like sea level rise, health impacts of pollutants, etc.) then the cost per gallon would probably be closer to $8-$15. At those prices, people would consume very little gasoline and sedans would sell better than SUV's.

Americans are spoiled by artificially low petrol prices. It's shocking how many times I've heard people say "Oh, but I NEED an SUV" as if they couldn't live reasonably well without one, LOL!


----------



## MelindaV (Apr 2, 2016)

Karl Sun said:


> Kinda related - Tesla says their cars are 100% US made.
> 
> Why is it that every part I've seen on the Mdl3 that has a part number label on it has "Made in Mexico" on the label?


they are not saying 100% of the parts are US made. graphic from the July 2017 handover event showing where parts are coming from:


----------



## garsh (Apr 4, 2016)

PNWmisty said:


> It's shocking how many times I've heard people say "Oh, but I NEED an SUV" as if they couldn't live reasonably well without one, LOL!


Today's SUVs are basically just "tall wagons". Fuel economy is good compared to trucks and traditional truck-based SUVs.

That said, I sometimes feel like I need a truck. We used to be a 2-truck household. I really miss having a truck. I might have to get a Rivian.


----------



## Karl Sun (Sep 19, 2018)

Use the right tool for the task at hand. Folks can always rent a truck / SUV for those 2 or 3 days a year when they really need it and then drive a small, hiper-miler 2-seater or BEV the rest of the time .

[Almost] Nothing annoys me more than seeing hundreds of single-seater Surburbans on the roadways.


----------



## PNWmisty (Aug 19, 2017)

garsh said:


> That said, I sometimes feel like I need a truck. We used to be a 2-truck household. I really miss having a truck. I might have to get a Rivian.


Our last ICE vehicle is a 2010 F-150. It might get driven once or twice a month and only when we need a truck. Which reminds me, I need to put some fuel stabilizer in it's giant 36 gallon tank and fill it up.


----------



## garsh (Apr 4, 2016)

Karl Sun said:


> Use the right tool for the task at hand. Folks can always rent a truck / SUV for those 2 or 3 days a year when they really need it and then drive a small, hiper-miler 2-seater or BEV the rest of the time .


If you've ever done this, then you know just how inconvenient this can be.


Karl Sun said:


> [Almost] Nothing annoys me more than seeing hundreds of single-seater Surburbans on the roadways.


My neighbor commutes to work in a Suburban. So you probably find him annoying. But his kids play hockey, and he coaches some of their teams, so he's always having to drag them, their gear, along with several of their friends around the state to play games on the weekend. So don't be so quick to jump to conclusions. You don't know everybody's situation.


----------



## iChris93 (Feb 3, 2017)

garsh said:


> If you've ever done this, then you know just how inconvenient this can be.


Do you have MAVEN in your area? Since this is a GM thread, why not throw it in?


----------



## Jay Jay (Oct 26, 2018)

BostonPilot said:


> Despite what a lot of the BEV purists think, I think a generation of PHEV will be necessary to get the average person to drive an electric car. As *Bokonon *said, it's a gateway vehicle for those who aren't ready to drink a full cup of BEV Koolaid.


That was definitely true for the era of the Gen 1 Volt (of which we were very proud owners) but no longer in the era of the Model 3. People will very, very quickly no longer see the point in a halfway solution now that BEV's are so good. Made all the sense in the world to end production of the Volt.


----------



## garsh (Apr 4, 2016)

Jay Jay said:


> That was definitely true for the era of the Gen 1 Volt (of which we were very proud owners) but no longer in the era of the Model 3.


You can say that because you were a Volt owner. The vast majority of car owners still won't feel comfortable with an electrical car's limitations, and in many cases they don't completely understand the limitations.


----------



## Jay Jay (Oct 26, 2018)

garsh said:


> You can say that because you were a Volt owner. The vast majority of car owners still won't feel comfortable with an electrical car's limitations, and in many cases they don't completely understand the limitations.


Admittedly, I'm not a good test case as I've been ready for a Tesla since the first Roadster. I just couldn't afford one until the M3. We only got the Volt because it was the best, most affordable option you could buy used for a great price. I didn't want to buy new anything unless it was a Tesla. That said, I still believe the larger market wants either gas mobiles, or EV's. They don't want a halfway option for a similar price.


----------



## Love (Sep 13, 2017)

garsh said:


> Today's SUVs are basically just "tall wagons".


Today's SUVs are minivans.


----------



## BostonPilot (Aug 14, 2018)

Jay Jay said:


> Admittedly, I'm not a good test case as I've been ready for a Tesla since the first Roadster. I just couldn't afford one until the M3. We only got the Volt because it was the best, most affordable option you could buy used for a great price. I didn't want to buy new anything unless it was a Tesla. That said, I still believe the larger market wants either gas mobiles, or EV's. They don't want a halfway option for a similar price.


I gotta agree with garsh... Most of the people I talk with, first question is

"so, it's battery only?"

"yup"

"so how does the whole recharge thing work?"

and after you explain, they leave with a slightly skeptical look on their face. I think when we hit the point where most people have a family member, maybe a couple co-workers, and a neighbor who all have BEV, _then_ they will be ready to go out and buy one. (and even then, all the range scare stories, like the time their brother in law almost ran out of charge getting home! will scare them away). It'll be a while before the average person understands the limitations of a BEV and can be comfortable that it will work for them.

Until then, in their mind, a PHEV is the best of both worlds. And truthfully, a PHEV with sufficient electric range _is_ the best of both worlds. No problems in cold weather, no discernible difference in range issues from their previous ICE... It's a win/win because it gives them mostly electric miles, but no negatives. I know _we_ see a bunch of negatives, but to them it's a clear win.

I'll just keep repeating: "I'd rather have them buy a PHEV instead of another ICE"... because for a lot of people, that's the choice... BEV isn't even in the running because it's new and different (and the average person isn't going to do a bunch of research like most of us do). So, it's easier for them to just buy another ICE. At least if they buy a PHEV, the majority of them will drive some large percentage of the time on electricity instead of gas.


----------



## Dan D (Oct 11, 2018)

BostonPilot said:


> At least if they buy a PHEV, the majority of them will drive some large percentage of the time on electricity instead of gas.


And shortly into their PHEV venture, they will be trying to see how long they can stay on their electric motor. It will hit them. "I really need something with a bigger battery."


----------



## BostonPilot (Aug 14, 2018)

Yes, hopefully. I'm a little disappointed to see PHEV like the new Subaru Crosstrek showing up with only 17 miles of range... But as you say, hopefully that will cause them to put pressure on manufacturers for bigger battery / better range.

( I should say, I loved all my Subarus... I like the company... but I think they just couldn't invest in EV technology... so they are using Toyota electric drivetrain components with a tiny battery that is simply stuffed in the back stealing cargo space... Not their finest hour, but I'm still glad to see them finally offering a PHEV at all).


----------



## Dan D (Oct 11, 2018)

To me... 17 miles of range is a joke. There's no point in even building that car. Especially THAT car. The nature of it's design suggests that the buyer is outgoing, maybe taking the thing to go skiing. If you're going to put in a 17-mile range electric motor, put it in Mrs. Dan D's Grand Cherokee for her around-town toting of baby Dan D.


----------



## MelindaV (Apr 2, 2016)

BostonPilot said:


> Yes, hopefully. I'm a little disappointed to see PHEV like the new Subaru Crosstrek showing up with only 17 miles of range... But as you say, hopefully that will cause them to put pressure on manufacturers for bigger battery / better range.


because the CARB ZEV begins being calculated on cars with a minimum of 10 miles of fully electric miles of range. So if manufactures want to continue selling cars in CARB states, they either need to meet their production minimums in their fleet, or purchase credits from other manufactures who have excess available.

IMO, anything less than 30 miles range really is more of an F-you at the CARB requirements. why even bother developing the systems at all if making such a minimum effort?


----------



## PNWmisty (Aug 19, 2017)

MelindaV said:


> because the CARB ZEV begins being calculated on cars with a minimum of 10 miles of fully electric miles of range. So if manufactures want to continue selling cars in CARB states, they either need to meet their production minimums in their fleet, or purchase credits from other manufactures who have excess available.


It makes more sense now that I know all those hybrids are merely compliance cars. Because all that redundant complexity never made sense to me. More stuff to age, more stuff to break, more stuff to pay for and you still have a stinky vibrating engine/gas tank and a gutless car that needs regular oil changes and everything else negative about ICE. I bought a BEV so I didn't need all that stuff!



> IMO, anything less than 30 miles range really is more of an F-you at the CARB requirements. why even bother developing the systems at all if making such a minimum effort?


Right. And they reduce the value of Tesla's ZEV credits (by reducing demand for them). Hybrids with minuscule ranges do nothing for EV charging infrastructure either. OK, I'll say it, hybrids suck! And I've never driven one that had good driving dynamics. I'd rather drive a sporty 4-banger.


----------



## BostonPilot (Aug 14, 2018)

I wouldn't call it a joke, but... pretty close. The average USA commute is 16 miles each way, so in a temperate climate, and if you have recharging at work, a car with 17 miles of range could in theory go electric 100% of the time. But I doubt that will happen often.

In my experience with a Gen 1 Volt, 43 miles is probably a pretty good minimum. It's certainly plenty for around town (which the Subaru probably is as well). But for me, the "once a week" trip outside town is right at the limit of the Volt. (you could recharge, but the on board charger on that car is laughably slow). For instance, dropping my older daughter back at college, I usually end up burning about a tenth of a gallon of gas.. In the winter more like a gallon. Of course, we always want more electric range, but in my experience living in the suburbs, GM got the electric range just about perfect for a PHEV. I hope they build a PHEV crossover with similar range.

Despite the complaints of some i3 Rex owners, I tend toward the BMW idea of range extension, i.e. rather than put in an engine capable of moving the car at highway speeds up a grade, I'd rather see a very small, light ICE that can _extend_ the range, rather than be able to move the car in all situations by itself. Still, the reaction BMW got probably says that my idea of a range extender isn't shared by a vocal part of the buying public.

btw, this website has a list of all the PHEV with interesting statistics including range.

Only 5 vehicles have range of 30 or more:

BMW 530e (30)
Cadillac CT6 Plug-in (31)
Volt (53)
Chrysler Pacifica Hybrid (33)
Honda Clarity PHEV (47)

The other 24 vehicles have less, with the average range of the entire list (which isn't a very useful statistic) being 22.6 miles.


----------



## BostonPilot (Aug 14, 2018)

PNWmisty said:


> Because all that redundant complexity never made sense to me. More stuff to age, more stuff to break, more stuff to pay for and you still have a stinky vibrating engine/gas tank and a gutless car that needs regular oil changes and everything else negative about ICE.


Certainly the Volt isn't as bad as you say. Oil changes, probably the #1 reason people have to take their car in for service, is on demand... The car tells you when you've run the engine enough to need an oil change. We've only done 1 oil change in I think 2 years. And I wouldn't call the Volt gutless - on electricity I'd say it has more acceleration than the typical non-sporty compact car. I just think the handling sucks, but that's not germane to the discussion.

Certainly the complexity part of your posting is true... One would hope that if some component of the ICE fails, you can still drive on electricity but I haven't tested that and my cynical half doubts that's the case. I'm not sure we know how reliable the Volt ICE (used infrequently) is compared to a typical car where the ICE runs 100% of the time. A lot of it probably depends on how you drive it. I could probably drive it on about a tankful of gas a year, but my lead foot daughter certainly burns a lot more.

I'm all for CARB ZEV to be upped to 25 or 30... I agree that 10 is ridiculous. It's hard to see, even in a urban environment, where 10 is a useful range.


----------



## Gavyne (Jul 7, 2018)

BostonPilot said:


> I gotta agree with garsh... Most of the people I talk with, first question is
> 
> "so, it's battery only?"
> 
> ...


Not my experience. Everybody I've talked to, neighbors, friends, family, etc.. first thing they always ask is how far do they go. When I mention 300 miles, they go "WOW ARE YOU SERIOUS?!", they get surprised because the only "electric" vehicles they know of are hybrids and they thought all electric only go 50 miles or less.

The next thing they ask is how do you charge, I tell them if they charge at home, they get a "full tank of gas" every morning, and I get a bigger "WOW THAT'S AWESOME". Then the a bigger wow comes when I tell them about Superchargers, which none of them knew they existed. The biggest wow comes when I tell them how much it cost to Supercharge, and that's when I usually get a "HOLY #[email protected]%".

I'm not sure how you are explaining to people around your circle, maybe people in Boston are just different. But in California, people absolutely love what they're seeing and learning about Teslas. There's nothing at all scaring anybody away when they learn 100% electric vehicles can go above 100 miles, with a Supercharger network that allows them to fill up for a fraction of the gas price. The whole "full tank of gas" in the morning analogy really hits home, and I hope everybody explaining about BEV's explain that part.


----------



## Gavyne (Jul 7, 2018)

BostonPilot said:


> btw, this website has a list of all the PHEV with interesting statistics including range.
> 
> Only 5 vehicles have range of 30 or more:
> 
> ...


That honestly shows just how much of a waste of time, resources, and technology these hybrids represent. They are the reasons why GM can't put out a 260+ mile electric sedan, crossover, and trucks right now, with an expansive charging network like Tesla has. They were too busy anti-selling their 100% electric vehicle. Hybrids are holding back progress, and it's finally showing now that more and more BEV's are showing up on the market.

I would argue hybrids make BEV's look bad because their short range place a stigma on the electric vehicles. They make uninformed general public think all electric vehicles have short range. The only saving grace here is that hybrids make Tesla look like Gods.


----------



## garsh (Apr 4, 2016)

Gavyne said:


> Not my experience.


But you live in California. Outside of that state, Teslas are not nearly as popular or known.


----------



## Jay Jay (Oct 26, 2018)

Gavyne said:


> Not my experience. Everybody I've talked to, neighbors, friends, family, etc.. first thing they always ask is how far do they go. When I mention 300 miles, they go "WOW ARE YOU SERIOUS?!", they get surprised because the only "electric" vehicles they know of are hybrids and they thought all electric only go 50 miles or less.
> 
> The next thing they ask is how do you charge, I tell them if they charge at home, they get a "full tank of gas" every morning, and I get a bigger "WOW THAT'S AWESOME". Then the a bigger wow comes when I tell them about Superchargers, which none of them knew they existed. The biggest wow comes when I tell them how much it cost to Supercharge, and that's when I usually get a "HOLY #[email protected]%".
> 
> I'm not sure how you are explaining to people around your circle, maybe people in Boston are just different. But in California, people absolutely love what they're seeing and learning about Teslas. There's nothing at all scaring anybody away when they learn 100% electric vehicles can go above 100 miles, with a Supercharger network that allows them to fill up for a fraction of the gas price. The whole "full tank of gas" in the morning analogy really hits home, and I hope everybody explaining about BEV's explain that part.


This exactly. I spent the Thanksgiving week taking everyone visiting us on a drive. That was about 20 people, ranging in age from 7 to 75. Every one of them who asked about the battery range and the charging was very, very impressed and so no concerns with it at all (except for state to state road trips, but after I told them about the supercharger network, they were like sweet!). I was blown away by the fact that every single person, no matter their age and generation, came away wowed by the M3 and I'd dare say converts to EV's and Tesla's in particular. None of them even drive/own a hybrid. Only a few of them had even heard much at all about Tesla before experiencing our M3 (mostly from us talking about it all the time), and we live in one of Tesla's biggest markets (CO).


----------



## Gavyne (Jul 7, 2018)

garsh said:


> But you live in California. Outside of that state, Teslas are not nearly as popular or known.


To that I agree, but the people I've talked to really don't know much about Teslas. I myself have driven ICE cars only, no hybrids, and only learned about Teslas back around April of this year. People are impressed by things they didn't know was possible, and range remains the top concern for them since they mostly thought electric cars were weak and short ranged (due to how hybrids are presented). None of them knew about the Supercharger network. So I just disagree people would be turned off by the notion of electric cars if you explain how it works properly.


----------



## PNWmisty (Aug 19, 2017)

garsh said:


> But you live in California. Outside of that state, Teslas are not nearly as popular or known.


Here in the NW corner of Washington State Tesla's are a growing phenomenon. Certainly, around Seattle area, they have been popular for some time but north of the big city, they are a more recent thing, I'm seeing more and more each month. I see "Tesla lust" in the eyes of some adults who notice the car, and it's obvious when it happens. But it's the younger generation, by far, that has strong positive reactions to seeing a Tesla. I'm honestly surprised by many "drools" and stares I get from the youngsters and also by how young some of the Tesla worshipers are, often only 5 or 6 years old (but also the middle-high school crowd).

I'm really looking forward to using my Model 3 to ski this winter. By the time the fresh powder is skied out there are usually one or two skiers/snowboarders thumbing a ride off the mountain. I always offer a ride but now I have extra incentive. In addition to being an EV ambassador, never under-estimate the extra regen you will get by picking up an extra body or two and descending 3000 vertical feet on a switchback road! Yes, I plan to leave regen on normal unless it's slicker than snot!


----------



## ebotrd (Jul 5, 2018)

Anyone know if Model 3 may get heated steering wheel in future OTA update (like I guess happened with heated seats)? I couldn't find much on the subject. 
Volt Premium has heated steering wheel and still is at least $10k less than even the mid-range.


----------



## iChris93 (Feb 3, 2017)

ebotrd said:


> Anyone know if Model 3 may get heated steering wheel in future OTA update (like I guess happened with heated seats)? I couldn't find much on the subject.
> Volt Premium has heated steering wheel and still is at least $10k less than even the mid-range.


IIRC, I saw a teardown somewhere and there was no connection for a heated steering wheel.


----------



## AutopilotFan (Oct 6, 2018)

ebotrd said:


> Anyone know if Model 3 may get heated steering wheel in future OTA update (like I guess happened with heated seats)? I couldn't find much on the subject.


As @iChris93 wrote, the hardware for a heated steering wheel doesn't exist. That means it won't be included in an OTA update.

But I'm finding that I don't need it. If I turn on the climate controls before I head over to the car, the wheel is comfortable to hold by the time I get there. Whatever wrap they're using provides enough insulation that my hands don't get too cold.

They may someday add it and I think that would be a great idea.


----------



## BostonPilot (Aug 14, 2018)

Gavyne said:


> Not my experience. Everybody I've talked to, neighbors, friends, family, etc.. first thing they always ask is how far do they go. When I mention 300 miles, they go "WOW ARE YOU SERIOUS?!", they get surprised because the only "electric" vehicles they know of are hybrids and they thought all electric only go 50 miles or less.
> 
> The next thing they ask is how do you charge, I tell them if they charge at home, they get a "full tank of gas" every morning, and I get a bigger "WOW THAT'S AWESOME". Then the a bigger wow comes when I tell them about Superchargers, which none of them knew they existed. The biggest wow comes when I tell them how much it cost to Supercharge, and that's when I usually get a "HOLY #[email protected]%".
> 
> I'm not sure how you are explaining to people around your circle, maybe people in Boston are just different. But in California, people absolutely love what they're seeing and learning about Teslas. There's nothing at all scaring anybody away when they learn 100% electric vehicles can go above 100 miles, with a Supercharger network that allows them to fill up for a fraction of the gas price. The whole "full tank of gas" in the morning analogy really hits home, and I hope everybody explaining about BEV's explain that part.


I guess I'd suggest this experiment, because I get the same reaction from people just generally wanting to know about BEVs and Tesla in particular. But now talk to someone who's actually in the market for a car, and try to talk them into a BEV. Then you start getting the kind of reactions I was talking about. Also, you need to be honest: Range... well, in my M3P+ about 250, but only about 170 if I have to turn on the cabin heat. And yeah, Superchargers are great, and I agree most people don't even know they exist, but still they have their limitations. When they're on the route you want to drive, they're great (except on Thanksgiving I guess!). But when you have to go someplace without one and you have to use a Level 2 charger? Not so great.

I'm excited enough about Tesla to have spent almost twice what I normally spend on a car, but still, while there are advantages, there are lots of disadvantages too. And yeah, the California climate is much better for a BEV so there's a little of that... but mostly, when it comes right down to deciding to buy a BEV or not, people are a LOT more conservative. (but that said, there are a TON of M3s around here, so not everybody is scared to take the plunge).


----------



## PNWmisty (Aug 19, 2017)

BostonPilot said:


> And yeah, the California climate is much better for a BEV so there's a little of that... but mostly, when it comes right down to deciding to buy a BEV or not, people are a LOT more conservative. (but that said, there are a TON of M3s around here, so not everybody is scared to take the plunge).


I agree the East Coast car buyers are more conservative than the people of the West Coast and Texas. We have adventure and risk coded into our genes. Native Westerners descended from people who had the itch to go West, into the unknown. While native East Coasters descended from those who preferred the comfort and security of home, they were not looking to break new trails, they liked the security of the status quo. So there is actually somewhat of a genetic divide, the old world, stay close to the hearth Easterners, and the adventure seeking, free-spirited, devil may care, Westerners. We don't worry, if the water looks good, we jump right in, both feet forward. Those that went West but didn't have what it took, died, often before reproducing. We are adventurous souls.

I think this adventurous translates into being early EV adopters.

I would argue it's less about climate. One of the things I've been enjoying most this winter is the pre-heat feature. I would never install a remote starter on a gasoline burner because who wants to spew toxic gas into your cold garage/entry area while waiting for a big chunk of metal and coolant to warm up so it can preheat your cabin? But in an EV you can pre-heat or pre-cool the car from the comfort of your kitchen or living room while using the same grid power you might use to warm an infra-red bathroom heater or heat lamp without the danger of back-drafting toxic gasses. And the East Coast gets that humid, sticky heat in the summer, another plus for the EV's cabin pre-conditioning. Of course, this all assumes you are not a big mile driver, living to drive 300 or more miles/day. And fortunately, most of us humans don't need to do that.


----------



## CCIE (Sep 1, 2018)

PNWmisty said:


> I agree the East Coast car buyers are more conservative than the people of the West Coast and Texas. We have adventure and risk coded into our genes. Native Westerners descended from people who had the itch to go West, into the unknown. While native East Coasters descended from those who preferred the comfort and security of home, they were not looking to break new trails, they liked the security of the status quo. So there is actually somewhat of a genetic divide, the old world, stay close to the hearth Easterners, and the adventure seeking, free-spirited, devil may care, Westerners. We don't worry, if the water looks good, we jump right in, both feet forward. Those that went West but didn't have what it took, died, often before reproducing. We are adventurous souls.
> 
> I think this adventurous translates into being early EV adopters.
> 
> ....


This made me laugh. Have you ever heard of the pilgrims settling in MA, or massive numbers of immigrants still arriving in NYC? Yes, the western US was settled a little more recently. But, from a human history standpoint, North America was all settled very recently. So, no, people on the East Coast are not descended from a bunch of lazy scared people. Definetly no significant genetic differences between east/west coast US humans.


----------



## Love (Sep 13, 2017)

This east coast versus west coast discussion flew right over my head.


----------



## PNWmisty (Aug 19, 2017)

CCIE said:


> This made me laugh. Have you ever heard of the pilgrims settling in MA, or massive numbers of immigrants still arriving in NYC? Yes, the western US was settled a little more recently. But, from a human history standpoint, North America was all settled very recently. So, no, people on the East Coast are not descended from a bunch of lazy scared people. Definetly no significant genetic differences between east/west coast US humans.


Well, "lazy" and "scared" are your words. You have better read what I actually wrote one more time because your imagination seems to have gone for a fancy little flight.

The Pilgrims were not searching for adventure, they were fleeing persecution.


----------



## Nautilus (Oct 10, 2018)

Lovesword said:


> This east coast versus west coast discussion flew right over my head.


Now THAT made me laugh (_and_ I grew up in Massachusetts, and went to college in the Bay Area. Past 20 years amongst the corn and soybean fields).

To get back on topic, I was/am a loyal 2014 Volt owner. The S and the X are out of my price range. I have a 23 mile commute, the ability to charge at work, and 90% of the 60K miles on the Volt have been on battery. As battery technology has improved over the past several years (and the price come down correspondingly), it was always a given that my next car would be a BEV.

The Volt replacement came much sooner than my usual 10 year buying cycle since my son is getting his license and he'll get the Volt. Oh yeah, and it's a wicked set of wheels just about in my price range, with a cool factor way above the 2nd Gen Leaf or Bolt (the other two serious contenders I was considering).


----------



## ebotrd (Jul 5, 2018)

Wow, it's been a while. Wanted to thank everyone again for helping me decide and let you know I ended up throwing down the cash and went with the LEMR 2018 in time to get the tax credit. Funny that the SR+ ended up being even cheaper early 2019 and now the SR+'s range is basically the same as my so-called "mid-range". That whole mid-range thing seems pretty sketchy now in hindsight, hmmm. Also looking back if I had to do it over I would gladly plunk down the extra few grand to get a long range (esp. RWD LR). But meh, no matter....bottom line is I love, love, LOVE my M3! I'm not quite 2yrs in and have 46k miles on it and totally trouble free. And honestly I love the idea of the 325mi range or whatever the LR has, but in reality it would only matter for a few minutes a year. I've made 9 hour road trips in my MR and only had to charge 1hr of it...and I like to stop every 2-3hrs anyway to move a little. After all the talk about getting the cheapest deal, I ironically also sprung for autopilot (added $5k at the time) and that is what convinced me I made the right choice. The driving ease and relaxation that allows is something the Volt just doesn't have. And get this autopilot allows me to take a few calls while driving and jot down a few notes so basically get some work done during commute, so that can easily cover the premium cost.
Thanks again TOO crew!


----------

