# Key Fob as an Alternative for Phone-as-Key



## Mosess (Sep 13, 2018)

[Mod note: this thread was created from several posts in another thread (Does the Model 3 Key Fob Support Summon?) that were primarily concerned with the *general* usability of the key fob versus the phone key]

The whole point of the Model 3 not originally shipping with a key fob was to eliminate the need for such altogether.
I'm not sure why so many people complain about this. I am glad they did it this way because it finally eliminated my need for keys or key fobs entirely.
If you don't have a smartphone that is reliable enough to act as your primary key for your M3 than perhaps you should consider getting one since you can obviously afford it (if you can afford to buy a Model 3).

The only scenario where a key-fob would be useful is for car rentals. But this isn't their target market nor is it ever a business strategy for Tesla to rent out their cars in that way and their potential Uber/Lyft-like program of car sharing would be smartphone based as well.

So, please let's get past the damn key-fob thing. It's like begging for computer maker to reintroduce CD drives because "I just feel more comfortable with that data storage solution". Apple had the fortitude to eliminate the headphone jack form their smartphones (and rightfully so) and they took a shellacking for it from some. No one misses it now and all realize that it was indeed a forward thinking move. The possibilities are endless with a smartphone controlled car, the key-fob would be your limiting factor.

Another thing is that Apple introduced background NFC and BLE on the new iPhones which facilitates this even better and features the passive-entry that people think the key-fob is for. As for other controls, I use Remote S on my apple watch and I find it way better than anything I had before.


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## SR22pilot (Aug 16, 2018)

Mosess said:


> If you don't have a smartphone that is reliable enough to act as your primary key for your M3 than perhaps you should consider getting one since you can obviously afford it (if you can afford to buy a Model 3).


I have an iPhone 7+ that has never failed me. It has been slow a couple of times after a big update but then got back to being totally reliable and pretty much instant. That said, even some of the latest Android phones seem to have issues. While I am strongly in the Apple camp, I can see why people like Android. I certainly wish iPhones had an accessible directory structure. So, it isn't just about getting a recent phone.


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## Mosess (Sep 13, 2018)

SR22pilot said:


> I have an iPhone 7+ that has never failed me. It has been slow a couple of times after a big update but then got back to being totally reliable and pretty much instant. That said, even some of the latest Android phones seem to have issues. While I am strongly in the Apple camp, I can see why people like Android. I certainly wish iPhones had an accessible directory structure. So, it isn't just about getting a recent phone.


You're right about this. I just wish more people would actually learn to give new tech a chance before jumping to Immidiate conclusions and screaming for the old tech to be brought back before the new tech is even given a chance to mature and prove its superiority. Yes, there are kinks to be worked out but that doesn't mean we should stagnate. As Model 3 owners, we all decided to brave (I'm grateful that I have the means and the fortitude to do it) the cutting edge of personal transport tech and the lack of a key fob is a part of that.


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## Flashgj (Oct 11, 2018)

I am with @Mosess on this one. I love the smartphone as a key and have no desire to get a keyfob. Of course with my wife's and my iPhone X, they have worked flawlessly from day one. We both love it.

Having said that, I understand that not everyone is having the same experience and are very frustrated at this point. For them the keyfob is probably the cheapest solution. I don't believe it is the BEST solution, but that is just my opinion, nothing more.


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## PNWmisty (Aug 19, 2017)

Flashgj said:


> Having said that, I understand that not everyone is having the same experience and are very frustrated at this point. For them the keyfob is probably the cheapest solution. I don't believe it is the BEST solution, but that is just my opinion, nothing more.


I think a lot of people have trouble because they don't realize that Bluetooth doesn't pass through objects very well. If the phone is in a bag slung over your shoulder, it might be behind your body!


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## theloneranger08 (Sep 29, 2017)

Mosess said:


> The whole point of the Model 3 not originally shipping with a key fob was to eliminate the need for such altogether.
> I'm not sure why so many people complain about this. I am glad they did it this way because it finally eliminated my need for keys or key fobs entirely.
> If you don't have a smartphone that is reliable enough to act as your primary key for your M3 than perhaps you should consider getting one since you can obviously afford it (if you can afford to buy a Model 3).
> 
> ...


[mod edit] I do all of the necessary troubleshooting steps like closing and reopening the app, turning bluetooth on and off, etc. on both phones. I know what the hell I'm doing...

I have no issues with using a phone exclusively but if I'm going to, it better work reliably so maybe bluetooth isn't the technology they should be using.


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## PNWmisty (Aug 19, 2017)

theloneranger08 said:


> I have no issues with using a phone exclusively but if I'm going to, it better work reliably so maybe bluetooth isn't the technology they should be using.


The phone as key works reliably for myself, my wife and most other people I've heard weigh in on the subject. That tells me there is nothing wrong with the Technology, just the way it's implemented/configured.


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## SR22pilot (Aug 16, 2018)

PNWmisty said:


> The phone as key works reliably for myself, my wife and most other people I've heard weigh in on the subject. That tells me there is nothing wrong with the Technology, just the way it's implemented/configured.


While my phone works reliably as a key, summon works only about 10% of the time. If I can connect it is fine but it rarely connects. Sometimes turning off Bluetooth and turning it back on will make it connect. Since my phone works reliably as a key, I don't think this is an issue with me not knowing how to use it or needing better hardware. I had hoped the key fob would support summon and work reliably. Model S and X owners say their phone is unreliable for summon but the fob works all the time. My real hope is that Tesla fixes the app. Tesla has told me it has to do with problems switching between WiFi and cellular or some such and involves weak cell or WiFi.


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## PNWmisty (Aug 19, 2017)

SR22pilot said:


> While my phone works reliably as a key, summon works only about 10% of the time. If I can connect it is fine but it rarely connects.


Right. But my comments about the "Technology" was limited to Bluetooth. Unless Tesla has changed the Model 3 recently, the Summon feature uses only cellular, not Bluetooth.


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## SR22pilot (Aug 16, 2018)

PNWmisty said:


> Right. But my comments about the "Technology" was limited to Bluetooth. Unless Tesla has changed the Model 3 recently, the Summon feature uses only cellular, not Bluetooth.


According to Tesla, summon uses the data link be it WiFi or cellular. They said they have problems when a device (car or phone) is where it isn't hard over one way (WiFi or cellular). In other words, my garage and driveway.


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## PNWmisty (Aug 19, 2017)

SR22pilot said:


> According to Tesla, summon uses the data link be it WiFi or cellular. They said they have problems when a device (car or phone) is where it isn't hard over one way (WiFi or cellular). In other words, my garage and driveway.


WiFi isn't Bluetooth either. My comment was specifically only about Bluetooth.


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## Mosess (Sep 13, 2018)

As for the Bluetooth key, I have to admit that since I see so many people, including myself, have no issues with it yet there is a certain percentage of us who can never get it to work properly. It seems like this is just bad or missing code on the app itself.
Though I still think we all assume some risk here knowing that we are beta testers. At the same time, I spent >$60k on a car so I want it to work.


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## Dr. J (Sep 1, 2017)

PNWmisty said:


> The phone as key works reliably for myself, my wife and most other people I've heard weigh in on the subject. That tells me there is nothing wrong with the Technology, just the way it's implemented/configured.


Anecdotes are not evidence. A minority of us have issues with phone-as-key, but it's not something we made up to be miserable.


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## PNWmisty (Aug 19, 2017)

Dr. J said:


> Anecdotes are not evidence. A minority of us have issues with phone-as-key, but it's not something we made up to be miserable.


When the technology works reliably for months for a whole bunch of people (but not all), it's pretty obvious that there must be a difference between either the phones, the manner in which they are used or perhaps the cars are different. Since the cars are all manufactured in the same facility with largely the same parts but the phones are of different brands with different apps loaded on them and vastly different software versions I have a hard time blaming the Bluetooth technologyy. Why would it work 100% reliably for so many people if the basic technology was so flawed that it was unuseable for others? It's much more likely the Bluetooth stacks are being corrupted/over-flowing due to non-compliant apps and/or Bluetooth hardware and software that doesn't meet the Bluetooth standards.


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## PNWmisty (Aug 19, 2017)

Mosess said:


> As for the Bluetooth key, I have to admit that since I see so many people, including myself, have no issues with it yet there is a certain percentage of us who can never get it to work properly. It seems like this is just bad or missing code on the app itself.


I agree the problem, for the minority that are having problems, originates on the phone side of things. If it were the App itself, it seems we would all have the problem. I think it's very likely the hardware/software platform the Tesla App runs on. My suspicion is that the majority of cases involve poorly written apps that corrupt the Bluetooth stack. My wife and I (who have excellent phone as key functionality) don't have any third party apps on our phones that use Bluetooth. Both of our phones work perfectly as keys with both of our Model 3's.


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## theloneranger08 (Sep 29, 2017)

Mosess said:


> I realized lately that Summon only works on cellular. At my office, I tried several times to summon while on the office WiFi and it always gave me the error message that it could not connect to the car. As soon as disabled the WiFi and got back on cellular it worked. I've replicated this at my house as well with the same results.
> As for the Bluetooth key, I have to admit that since I see so many people, including myself, have no issues with it yet there is a certain percentage of us who can never get it to work properly. It seems like this is just bad or missing code on the app itself.
> Though I still think we all assume some risk here knowing that we are beta testers. At the same time, I spent >$60k on a car so I want it to work.





PNWmisty said:


> I agree the problem, for the minority that are having problems, originates on the phone side of things. If it were the App itself, it seems we would all have the problem. I think it's very likely the hardware/software platform the Tesla App runs on. My suspicion is that the majority of cases involve poorly written apps that corrupt the Bluetooth stack. My wife and I (who have excellent phone as key functionality) don't have any third party apps on our phones that use Bluetooth. Both of our phones work perfectly as keys with both of our Model 3's.


So you guys both admit there is a need for a fob without actually saying it. If I'm going to pay $60k for a car and another $5k to enable summon, I should have an expectation that it's implementation isn't half baked. Until such time that they fix the app and/or switch the method to bluetooth (I have no issues using my phone as a key 99% of the time), they need to add the functionality to the fob, which is the whole point of this thread. New technology is great and I support it. Hell I hope one day it will have an eye or fingerprint scanner but whenever something new and thus unreliable is released, a backup method should be introduced if possible. I wouldn't have asked Tesla to create a fob solely for summon but now that they are selling their customers one for $150, it's kind of ridiculous that it doesn't support summon or passive entry (not an issue for me).

By the way, this forum is for discussing things that impact Model 3 users. I've had my car for 5 months and it's an issue I've had since summon was released. Don't discount people's frustrations just because you don't experience the same issues on a regular basis. It's not conducive to a friendly community and to be honest, isn't necessary. You would feel very differently if it didn't work most of the time for you.


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## SR22pilot (Aug 16, 2018)

Dr. J said:


> Anecdotes are not evidence. A minority of us have issues with phone-as-key, but it's not something we made up to be miserable.


My comment wasn't an anecdote. It was a singular data point. No more and no less. You state that the MAJORITY of owners have problems. I agree that, based on posts on this forum, there are a number of owners reporting with issues. I see nothing that proves or disproves that the problem group is a majority of the owners. I doubt most owners are even on this forum. Where is the data to back up your statement since you seem so upset that I dared to say my phone works.

BTW, if you read my past posts you will see that I am supportive rather than dismissive of the people having issues.

EDIT; Oops I thought you were replying to me. Still, the users reporting a working phone are giving a data point and not an anecdote.


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## garsh (Apr 4, 2016)

theloneranger08 said:


> So you guys both admit there is a need for a fob without actually saying it.


Keep in mind that the Model 3 fob also uses Bluetooth for communication.


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## theloneranger08 (Sep 29, 2017)

garsh said:


> Keep in mind that the Model 3 fob also uses Bluetooth for communication.


Ah good to know. Well maybe they just need to change the way it works. Cellular really makes no sense to be honest...


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## PNWmisty (Aug 19, 2017)

theloneranger08 said:


> So you guys both admit there is a need for a fob without actually saying it.


Uh...no. I'm not sure where you got that idea. I'm specifically saying there is NO need for a key fob if your phone works 100% as do both my wife's and mine on both of our cars. I would buy two key fobs tomorrow if fobs would improve our user experiences but they wouldn't.

I would have to push a button to lock/unlock my car! Currently, it opens/locks automatically. What is it you don't understand about that?

It would also be two more devices to keep fresh batteries in (for no added benefit).


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## theloneranger08 (Sep 29, 2017)

PNWmisty said:


> Uh...no. I'm not sure where you got that idea. I'm specifically saying there is NO need for a key fob if your phone works 100% as do both my wife's and mine on both of our cars. I would buy two key fobs tomorrow if fobs would improve our user experiences but they wouldn't.
> 
> I would have to push a button to lock/unlock my car! Currently, it opens/locks automatically. What is it you don't understand about that?
> 
> It would also be two more devices to keep fresh batteries in (for no added benefit).


.......I'm so glad you and your wife's phones work 100% of the time. It must be really nice. Like I said, you and another poster's comments haven't been very constructive. How the heck is it helpful to tell people to stop whining about an issue that you yourself are fortunate not to have? This thread isn't about using a fob to lock and unlock my car........ I don't care about using the fob for that. For like the hundredth time I want to use it for summon because it doesn't work reliably on my phone. If you don't have anything constructive to contribute (i.e. talking about the technology or offering objective knowledge why the fob doesn't support summon like @garsh did), don't post. Once again, this is supposed to be a positive community and downplaying people's frustrations is demeaning.


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## SR22pilot (Aug 16, 2018)

PNWmisty said:


> Uh...no. I'm not sure where you got that idea. I'm specifically saying there is NO need for a key fob if your phone works 100% as do both my wife's and mine on both of our cars. I would buy two key fobs tomorrow if fobs would improve our user experiences but they wouldn't.
> 
> I would have to push a button to lock/unlock my car! Currently, it opens/locks automatically. What is it you don't understand about that?
> 
> It would also be two more devices to keep fresh batteries in (for no added benefit).


He didn't say you need one. He just said you implied there is a need.


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## PNWmisty (Aug 19, 2017)

SR22pilot said:


> He didn't say you need one. He just said you implied there is a need.


But I didn't imply there was a need for a fob. This is crazy. There is a need for people to use phones that have properly working Bluetooth (same technology the fob uses except you don't have to push a button to access your car).

Now you have a choice. If your phone is flaky, and you don't care to fix or replace it, then you can buy a fob. I don't know who would choose to waste $150 going that route but apparently, a number of people are attached to their phones that only have partial functionality.


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## Dr. J (Sep 1, 2017)

Dr. J said:


> A *minority* of us have issues with phone-as-key





SR22pilot said:


> You state that the MAJORITY of owners have problems.


Actually, the opposite, but I appreciate you realizing my post wasn't a response to yours.


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## Dr. J (Sep 1, 2017)

PNWmisty said:


> If your phone is flaky, and you don't care to fix or replace it, then you can buy a fob. I don't know who would choose to waste $150 going that route


I would. So now you know.


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## MelindaV (Apr 2, 2016)

theloneranger08 said:


> .......I'm so glad you and your wife's phones work 100% of the time. It must be really nice. Like I said, you and another poster's comments haven't been very constructive. How the heck is it helpful to tell people to stop whining about an issue that you yourself are fortunate not to have? This thread isn't about using a fob to lock and unlock my car........ I don't care about using the fob for that. For like the hundredth time I want to use it for summon because it doesn't work reliably on my phone. If you don't have anything constructive to contribute (i.e. talking about the technology or offering objective knowledge why the fob doesn't support summon like @garsh did), don't post. Once again, this is supposed to be a positive community and downplaying people's frustrations is demeaning.


taking out your frustrations on others is also not constructive. speaking for @PNWmisty I am sure he understands the frustration of an owners phone not working as intended, and was attempting to offer solutions. it's just that solution (a different phone) is not an option for you.


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## theloneranger08 (Sep 29, 2017)

PNWmisty said:


> But I didn't imply there was a need for a fob. This is crazy. There is a need for people to use phones that have properly working Bluetooth (same technology the fob uses except you don't have to push a button to access your car).
> 
> Now you have a choice. If your phone is flaky, and you don't care to fix or replace it, then you can buy a fob. I don't know who would choose to waste $150 going that route but apparently, a number of people are attached to their phones that only have partial functionality.


[Mod edit] Both of my phones (one for work and one for personal reasons) are fine as keys. They work about 99% of the time but if I had an android phone that didn't work (I used to...) then I would be frustrated that the fob doesn't have passive entry but I don't have that issue. I will gladly put a fob with summon on display never to be touched again if the app worked reliably.


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## theloneranger08 (Sep 29, 2017)

MelindaV said:


> taking out your frustrations on others is also not constructive. speaking for @PNWmisty I am sure he understands the frustration of an owners phone not working as intended, and was attempting to offer solutions. it's just that solution (a different phone) is not an option for you.


Melinda, if your thread got hijacked by people telling me to use a different phone and to embrace technology you'd be frustrated too. Give me a break. I do embrace technology but I also admit when it's broken.


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## Dr. J (Sep 1, 2017)

If you don't like the idea of spending $150 on a key fob that you think is useless, don't do it. If you do like the idea, do it. I don't get why it needs to be a federal case. This thread was useful because it drew out the limitations of the fob. Kudos to @theloneranger08 for asking to @TrevP for answering.


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## PNWmisty (Aug 19, 2017)

theloneranger08 said:


> .......I'm so glad you and your wife's phones work 100% of the time. It must be really nice. Like I said, you and another poster's comments haven't been very constructive. How the heck is it helpful to tell people to stop whining about an issue that you yourself are fortunate not to have?


Here's what you don't seem to get: Tesla is not responsible for making sure your phone has properly working Bluetooth, that is the manufacturer of your phone (and any third party apps you may have installed that don't play nice with the phone's BT). And I don't think I told anyone to stop whining about it but, yes, it doesn't make sense to whine to Tesla about a problem that lies with your phone. They released a fob which is going above and beyond, IMO. If the fob doesn't work reliably then you have a valid beef with Tesla. I won't be getting a fob because it has less functionality than the BT on my phone (I would need to push a button).



> This thread isn't about using a fob to lock and unlock my car........ I don't care about using the fob for that. For like the hundredth time I want to use it for summon because it doesn't work reliably on my phone.


Bluetooth has NEVER been used for summon. Bluetooth is not a suitable technology for a critical application like summon (the range is too short and the signal is too easily blocked by flesh and clothing). So, no, the Bluetooth fob has never (and will never) be used for summon. You are being unrealistic to want that.



> If you don't have anything constructive to contribute (i.e. talking about the technology or offering objective knowledge why the fob doesn't support summon like @garsh did), don't post. Once again, this is supposed to be a positive community and downplaying people's frustrations is demeaning.


Wow! I'm not demeaning anyone or downplaying their frustrations. If anything, I'm saying their ire is misdirected. The Bluetooth fob was never designed to operate summon (and for good reasons). I do think cellular is the proper technology to use for summon and it needs to be improved. I'm not sure whether the problem is with the cellular data service Tesla has contracted through various cellular carriers or what. But yeah, it needs improvement. I'm not sure why you are angry with me for pointing out the fob wasn't designed for summon. My initial comments were in response to claims that BT was not working well.


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## theloneranger08 (Sep 29, 2017)

PNWmisty said:


> Here's what you don't seem to get: Tesla is not responsible for making sure your phone has properly working Bluetooth, that is the manufacturer of your phone (and any third party apps you may have installed that don't play nice with the phone's BT). And I don't think I told anyone to stop whining about it but, yes, it doesn't make sense to whine to Tesla about a problem that lies with your phone. They released a fob which is going above and beyond, IMO. If the fob doesn't work reliably then you have a valid beef with Tesla. I won't be getting a fob because it has less functionality than the BT on my phone (I would need to push a button).
> 
> Bluetooth has NEVER been used for summon. Bluetooth is not a suitable technology for a critical application like summon (the range is too short and the signal is too easily blocked by flesh and clothing). So, no, the Bluetooth fob has never (and will never) be used for summon. You are being unrealistic to want that.
> 
> Wow! I'm not demeaning anyone or downplaying their frustrations. If anything, I'm saying their ire is misdirected. The Bluetooth fob was never designed to operate summon (and for good reasons). I do think cellular is the proper technology to use for summon and it needs to be improved. I'm not sure whether the problem is with the cellular data service Tesla has contracted through various cellular carriers or what. But yeah, it needs improvement. I'm not sure why you are angry with me for pointing out the fob wasn't designed for summon. My initial comments were in response to claims that BT was not working well.


You are downplaying my frutrations because you are saying it's an issue with my phone. Both of my phones work fine. I just live in a parking garage that doesn't have great service. If I am two feet from my car, I shouldn't need cellular to use summon. That makes no sense.

Also, like I have said, the key fob for the S and X both support summon and I doubt they have cellular radios in them so they must be using bluetooth or another protocol. I didn't just pull this question out of my butt. What I'm asking for shouldn't be that difficult unless there is no bluetooth chip in the Model 3 key fob. when the 3 first came out people didn't know it had heated seats and then a software update unlocked it. Don't see any reason why that's not possible unless someone has a fob, takes it apart, and discovers there's no bluetooth chip.


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## Bokonon (Apr 13, 2017)

Guys, I've moved this little discussion/debate to its own thread to keep the original thread focused on the question it asked: "Does the Model 3 key fob support Summon?"

While I'm glad to see the conversation circling back to Summon, we need to tone it down if it is to continue. Let's put aside the inferences and accusations about intentions and stick to the use-cases and technology involved. I, for one, think the broader technical discussion here is very interesting and going to become increasingly relevant as the number of Model 3s in densely-populated environments (with underground parking garages at home and work) increases.

I'm happy to copy the Summon-related portions of the two messages above back to the original thread if you'd like. (Heck, I might even do it anyway, because I have a few questions of my own...)


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## theloneranger08 (Sep 29, 2017)

Bokonon said:


> Guys, I've moved this little discussion/debate to its own thread to keep the original thread focused on the question it asked: "Does the Model 3 key fob support Summon?"
> 
> While I'm glad to see the conversation circling back to Summon, we need to tone it down if it is to continue. Let's put aside the inferences and accusations about intentions and stick to the use-cases and technology involved. I, for one, think the broader technical discussion here is very interesting and going to become increasingly relevant as the number of Model 3s in densely-populated environments (with underground parking garages at home and work) increases.
> 
> I'm happy to copy the Summon-related portions of the two messages above back to the original thread if you'd like. (Heck, I might even do it anyway, because I have a few questions of my own...)


Please do because that's all I really care about and it was my post. Happy to talk about broader topics with the fob and such, but that was never my intention.


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## PNWmisty (Aug 19, 2017)

theloneranger08 said:


> What I'm asking for shouldn't be that difficult unless there is no bluetooth chip in the Model 3 key fob. when the 3 first came out people didn't know it had heated seats and then a software update unlocked it. Don't see any reason why that's not possible unless someone has a fob, takes it apart, and discovers there's no bluetooth chip.


The Model 3 FOB definitely has Bluetooth. And it definitely will never work for summoning. It doesn't have appropriate buttons for summon functionality (ignoring the suitability of BT for summoning). I'm never getting one.

I'm done discussing this.


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## crackers8199 (Jun 7, 2018)

PNWmisty said:


> If anything, I'm saying their ire is misdirected.


yes, those of us who expected the primary method of entering and driving a $60k vehicle to work 100% of the time are just crazy folk.


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## PNWmisty (Aug 19, 2017)

crackers8199 said:


> yes, those of us who expected the primary method of entering and driving a $60k vehicle to work 100% of the time are just crazy folk.


When I say people who blame the Model 3 have misdirected their ire, I'm not calling them crazy, I'm simply saying that Tesla has no ability (or responsibility) to make sure their phones are compliant or functioning properly. Tesla's responsibility ends when they have made the car function reliably with properly functioning phones that are compliant with the standards. Holding them responsible for non-compliant or malfunctioning phones would be the same as holding Ford or GMC responsible if you fueled their car with waterlogged gasoline and the engine would run rough or not even start. It is not Ford or GMC's responsibility to insure that every gas stations product meets recognized specifications.

My wife and I both have different phones (Samsung S8+ and S9) and two different Tesla's and we have 100% reliability with proximity lock/unlock with both cars. This is not a fluke, it is the result of having phones that work properly.

edit: ooops! I just reviewed my previous post when I said I'm done discussing this!


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## crackers8199 (Jun 7, 2018)

PNWmisty said:


> When I say people who blame the Model 3 have misdirected their ire, I'm not calling them crazy, I'm simply saying that Tesla has no ability (or responsibility) to make sure their phones are compliant or functioning properly. Tesla's responsibility ends when they have made the car function reliably with properly functioning phones that are compliant with the standards. Holding them responsible for non-compliant or malfunctioning phones would be the same as holding Ford or GMC responsible if you fueled their car with waterlogged gasoline and the engine would run rough or not even start. It is not Ford or GMC's responsibility to insure that every gas stations product meets recognized specifications.
> 
> My wife and I both have different phones (Samsung S8+ and S9) and two different Tesla's and we have 100% reliability with proximity lock/unlock with both cars. This is not a fluke, it is the result of having phones that work properly.
> 
> edit: ooops! I just reviewed my previous post when I said I'm done discussing this!


how do you then explain those of us who have tried a factory reset (to rule out third party apps causing issues as you seem to think is the case) and STILL not have the damn thing work reliably?

this idea that Tesla is infallible and can never do anything wrong to some people blows my mind. I love the car overall, but I'm also willing to call a spade a spade and say they screwed the pooch big time on the phone key.


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## PNWmisty (Aug 19, 2017)

crackers8199 said:


> how do you then explain those of us who have tried a factory reset (to rule out third party apps causing issues as you seem to think is the case) and STILL not have the damn thing work reliably?


A factory reset will not solve the issue if the phone is not compliant to Bluetooth standards. In fact, it might make it worse until you update the system software to the latest version and configure the power saving features to ensure the phone doesn't put Bluetooth to sleep (either partiially or fully).



> this idea that Tesla is infallible and can never do anything wrong to some people blows my mind. I love the car overall, but I'm also willing to call a spade a spade and say they screwed the pooch big time on the phone key.


I don't believe Tesla is infalliable but it makes no sense to blame Tesla when the lock/unlock works 100% with a compliant handset that is functioning properly. I was the first to call them out on the biggest flaw either of our Model 3's had (and they both have it). Namely, the design flaw that allows water to roll down the rear glass right into the open trunk. I wouldn't have started a thread on it calling Tesla out on that unforgivable design flaw back in early June if I believed Tesla could do no wrong. But no, I didn't blame Ducati when I fueled my motorcycle with gas from a tank loaded with water! I cursed the gas station that sold me the bad gas.

I'm all about calling a spade a spade but one of my favorite features is the phone as key so I hope they don't change course on that because I think there is a Tesla Pickup Truck in our future and I want the same phone to automatically provide access credentials to all three Teslas. I love the way I don't have to even think about it (because I always have my phone with me when I leave the house). Actually, pre-Tesla, I would ocassionally forget my phone. Now my door won't open if I leave my phone somewhere so I can run back and get it! It automatically prevents me from leaving my phone behind! I absolutely love the simplicity and reliability of phone as key.


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## crackers8199 (Jun 7, 2018)

PNWmisty said:


> A factory reset will not solve the issue if the phone is not compliant to Bluetooth standards


come on...the number of phones that have had issues is far too great to be blaming the phone for not being compliant. there are people with iPhones who have had issues...my OnePlus 5 is less than two years old and works fine with everything except my model 3 phone key (it works fine for calls and streaming).

I am not saying they should give up on phone key, what I'm saying is they should have done two things: one is a better job testing and listing compatible phones, and two provide a reliable passive entry fob for people who don't have such a phone. the phone key should have been listed as an experimental optional way of entering the car, not the primary way of doing so.


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## PNWmisty (Aug 19, 2017)

crackers8199 said:


> come on...the number of phones that have had issues is far too great to be blaming the phone for not being compliant. there are people with iPhones who have had issues...


My unscientific observation is that iPhones seem to be one of the bigger offenders of not working 100%. And I think it's something built into the OS to save battery power. On the other hand, Android phones seem to either work 100% or be even more problematic than iPhones. I think both Android and Apple problems stem from both the manufacturer's software AND misbehaving apps.



> my OnePlus 5 is less than two years old and works fine with everything except my model 3 phone key (it works fine for calls and streaming).


Most phones do work OK for common applications like streaming music and calls. That's how the manufacturers test them. With the popularity of Tesla's, I expect manufacturers will be testing their software functionality with the Tesla app going forward. They are somewhat different use cases, especially with regard to power saving tricks manufacturers use.



> I am not saying they should give up on phone key, what I'm saying is they should have done two things: one is a better job testing and listing compatible phones, and two provide a reliable passive entry fob for people who don't have such a phone. the phone key should have been listed as an experimental optional way of entering the car, not the primary way of doing so.


I would LOVE it if Tesla would test hundreds of phones and thousands of apps and rank each one for the likelihood of fouling up the functioning of Bluetooth! I'm not sure how practical it would be given Tesla's limited resources but it would be great if they did that.

As to providing a backup passive entry solution, it doesn't get much more passive than the two key cards they provide with each vehicle! And now there is an optional third solution (the optional key fob). So I don't have a lot of sympathy for those who feel slighted. I'm just happy that the primary system works so well and is 100% dependable and requires no user input or thinking. It's like custom security that is user invisible. I can't imagine any better user experience.


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## crackers8199 (Jun 7, 2018)

PNWmisty said:


> I'm not sure how practical it would be given Tesla's limited resources but it would be great if they did that.


i don't disagree, but again that's why IMO this should have been listed as experimental - not primary.



PNWmisty said:


> As to providing a backup passive entry solution, it doesn't get much more passive than the two key cards they provide with each vehicle! And now there is an optional third solution (the optional key fob).


neither of those are passive entry options, they both require active measures to unlock the car. you either have to tap the key card or press the button on the fob. passive = nothing to do other than open the door and drive away.


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## PNWmisty (Aug 19, 2017)

crackers8199 said:


> neither of those are passive entry options, they both require active measures to unlock the car. you either have to tap the key card or press the button on the fob. passive = nothing to do other than open the door and drive away.


That does seem like a lot of work simply to enter your vehicle. Who would have thunk in 2018 one would have to press a button or swipe a card to achieve authentication privileges? Oh, wait, I don't have to because Tesla lets me use my phone as a wireless authentication device! But yes, I guess I feel sorry for all you poor blokes who don't want to switch to a phone that works and have to press a button or swipe a security card. So old fashioned! I would probably rather walk than have to jump through such unreasonable hoops. It should have facial recognition or iris scanning. Because we all know those work 100% of the time.


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## crackers8199 (Jun 7, 2018)

PNWmisty said:


> That does seem like a lot of work simply to enter your vehicle. Who would have thunk in 2018 one would have to press a button or swipe a card to achieve authentication privileges? Oh, wait, I don't have to because Tesla lets me use my phone as a wireless authentication device! But yes, I guess I feel sorry for all you poor blokes who don't want to switch to a phone that works and have to press a button or swipe a security card. So old fashioned! I would probably rather walk than have to jump through such unreasonable hoops. It should have facial recognition or iris scanning. Because we all know those work 100% of the time.


what the hell is it with people this morning? there's no need to be [mean] about it just because i pointed out that you were wrong about what is passive entry and what is not. i never said it was a lot of work, i said it was not passive entry. it isn't.


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## PNWmisty (Aug 19, 2017)

crackers8199 said:


> what the hell is it with people this morning? there's no need to be a dick about it just because i pointed out that you were wrong about what is passive entry and what is not. i never said it was a lot of work, i said it was not passive entry. it isn't.


Sorry, it's just that I don't understand what the big problem is.


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## crackers8199 (Jun 7, 2018)

PNWmisty said:


> Sorry, it's just that I don't understand what the big problem is.


the problem is that the primary method of entering and driving the vehicle does not work for many of us. if it were listed as an experiemental or secondary method, i (and i would imagine many others) would accept that it's in development and just use the key card...but that's not the case. tesla still lists it as the primary, knowing full well that it doesn't work for many people without getting a new phone.


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## Madmolecule (Oct 8, 2018)

PNWmisty said:


> As to providing a backup passive entry solution, it doesn't get much more passive than the two key cards they provide with each vehicle! And now there is an optional third solution (the optional key fob). So I don't have a lot of sympathy for those who feel slighted. I'm just happy that the primary system works so well and is 100% dependable and requires no user input or thinking. It's like custom security that is user invisible. I can't imagine any better user experience.


As to providing a backup passive entry solution, *it doesn't get much more passive* than the two key cards they provide with each vehicle! *The keys or the key fobs are not passive!*

"Passive keyless entry (PKE) is an automotive security system that operates automatically when the* user is in proximity to the vehicle*, unlocking the door on approach or when the door handle is pulled and locking it when the user walks away or touches the car on exit.

"I'm just happy that the primary system works so well and is 100% dependable and requires no user input or thinking." That would be nice. I just wish I could borrow your world, where everything works 100% of the time and you have two passive backup options.

Why can't they make the keyfob passive. Add bluetooth, cellular, NFC or KFC for that matter, just make it so my wife can leave it in her purse and get in the car.


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## PNWmisty (Aug 19, 2017)

Madmolecule said:


> Why can't they make the keyfob passive. Add bluetooth, cellular, NFC or KFC for that matter, just make it so my wife can leave it in her purse and get in the car.


That's how my wife uses her Model 3. She just leaves her phone in her purse. It's been working 100% since we took delivery of our first Model 3 on May 15th. It works in the boonies where there is no cellular service, it works in the middle of big cities with all kinds of radio signals. Cold, hot, wet, doesn't matter, always works, never have to give it a second thought. It's like magic. You don't even have to say "Open sesame".

I hope they don't switch to a passive fob system, we've just got rid of two cars that required fobs but we still have the truck which needs either a fob or a key code entered into the door keypad. Now that keypad is a system you can complain about! The buttons don't work (and that assumes I could ever remember the code anyway).

It was my responsibility to keep ordering/replacing batteries for all three vehicles, six key fobs, two for each vehicle. There was always one or two getting funky from low batteries. With the Teslas we just charge our phones once a day (but we were already doing that anyway). I finally feel liberated so if I seem protective of the "phone as key" functionality, that's why. I never want to go back to the old way with dedicated fobs for every vehicle.


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## crackers8199 (Jun 7, 2018)

PNWmisty said:


> That's how my wife uses her Model 3. She just leaves her phone in her purse. It's been working 100% since we took delivery of our first Model 3 on May 15th. It works in the boonies where there is no cellular service, it works in the middle of big cities with all kinds of radio signals. Cold, hot, wet, doesn't matter, always works, never have to give it a second thought. It's like magic. You don't even have to say "Open sesame".


way to conveniently ignore the fact he was talking about wishing the FOB operated that way, not phone. if phone worked perfectly that way for everyone, we wouldn't be having this discussion. it doesn't.



> I hope they don't switch to a passive fob system, we've just got rid of two cars that required fobs but we still have the truck which needs either a fob or a key code entered into the door keypad. Now that keypad is a system you can complain about! The buttons don't work (and that assumes I could ever remember the code anyway).


you're not understanding what the term "passive entry" means. it means you enter the car with no interaction, similar to how the phone key is supposed to work (and how it does work some of the time). the fob where you have to push a button or the key cards where you have to take them out and tap the door are NOT passive entry. and, to cut off your come back like before about how it's such "hard work" to take the fob or card out...that is completely irrelevant. yes, it's simple to tap the key card on the pillar...but i shouldn't have to. the car is advertised and the manual specifies that passive entry should work with ANY bluetooth enabled smartphone...and, for many, it does not. if it's experimental, they should have labeled it as such from the jump. they did not.



> I never want to go back to the old way with dedicated fobs for every vehicle.


nobody is saying they want you to go back to the old way. nor is anyone saying they want to have to use fobs. we'd all love for phone key to work perfectly for everyone, 100% of the time...but, again, it doesn't. just because it works for you doesn't mean it works for everyone...and just because it works for you doesn't mean they shouldn't try to give those of us who it doesn't work for other options (again, for passive entry - the fob doesn't count). if they had released the fob with passive entry enabled, they would have sold many, many more, plus those of us who are having issues with phone key would have been 100% satisfied (source: me. i was planning on buying the fob and just using that until they released it and it doesn't support passive entry...so, here i sit trying to figure out ways to make my less than two year old phone that should work actually work).

i think that is what blows my mind the most about the tesla community - the sheer volume of people who are so dead set against giving anyone any other options other than what is already provided. this is the "tesla is infallible, this is how they released the car so it must be perfect" mentality i'm talking about...


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## Bigriver (Jan 26, 2018)

PNWmisty said:


> But yes, I guess I feel sorry for all you poor blokes who don't want to switch to a phone that works and have to press a button or swipe a security card. So old fashioned!


I am totally with you on your dislike of fobs. They are certainly better than keys, but I want my car entry to be totally passive and I don't want to have to go digging for anything to let me into the car. I've only had my Model 3 for a month, and initially rejoiced because I appeared to be in the group of people that the phone always works as the key. But now it often does not work - fails perhaps 1/4 of the time. The car is on 46.2. I have an iPhone that to my knowledge works in every other way. I only have 1 other Bluetooth device - a Fitbit - which shouldn't cause any interference. Sometimes the phone as key works when it is in my back pocket, but sometimes it doesn't work when it's in my hand right next to the door. This is truly frustrating! I don't want to go digging for the key card. I don't want to stand in a cold parking lot with my hands full and need to turn on and off Bluetooth (which fixes it about half the time) or get into the Tesla app to open the door.

So my bottom line question is, what am I to do? You advocate buying a new phone. Where is the approved phone list that is guaranteed to work? I don't know anything about Bluetooth specs. Has Apple been improving Bluetooth with the latest releases of their phone?


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## crackers8199 (Jun 7, 2018)

Bigriver said:


> You advocate buying a new phone. Where is the approved phone list that is guaranteed to work?


this is the other problem - there isn't one (which i think everyone knows). the "buy a new phone that will work" excuse is ridiculous for that reason. there's no guarantee that even a brand new phone that releases tomorrow will work 100% of the time...it may be more likely, but not guaranteed. that's the entire reason i haven't done that myself, yet. my OP5 is less than two years old and has 128GB of storage and 8GB of RAM. this phone should last me well into the future, i'm not buying a new phone simply because it might work as a phone key without a GUARANTEE it will work, which of course isn't there.


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## PNWmisty (Aug 19, 2017)

crackers8199 said:


> nobody is saying they want you to go back to the old way. nor is anyone saying they want to have to use fobs. we'd all love for phone key to work perfectly for everyone, 100% of the time...but, again, it doesn't. just because it works for you doesn't mean it works for everyone.


You're right, shoe laces don't work for everyone either. That's why you can buy shoes with velcro. I've always been able to make shoelaces work so I buy shoes with laces.

Your option here is to get a phone that has 100% working Bluetooth or get a car that has a fob. Tesla brought you a Model 3 fob but it's not good enough for you because you have to push a button. So you should buy a car that has a passive fob if you don't want to get a working phone and only a passive fob will satisfy you.

You have lots of options but don't seem happy with ANY of them. You've made that known. I'm 100% satisfied because I have passsive entry and don't even need to carry a fob. I've made that known.

Over and out.


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## crackers8199 (Jun 7, 2018)

PNWmisty said:


> You're right, shoe laces don't work for everyone either. That's why you can buy shoes with velcro. I've always been able to make shoelaces work so I buy shoes with laces.


that is the most absurd comparison i've seen on this issue to date...so, congrats on that i suppose.



> Your option here is to get a phone that has 100% working Bluetooth or get a car that has a fob. Tesla brought you a Model 3 fob but it's not good enough for you because you have to push a button. So you should buy a car that has a passive fob if you don't want to get a working phone and only a passive fob will satisfy you.


a $60k car in the year 2018 should have a working passive entry system that works 100% of the time FOR EVERYONE. end of discussion.

that being said, show me a list of phones that are guaranteed to work 100% of the time, and i'll consider buying one. until you can do that though (you can't, because there is no such list as i'm sure you're aware), you're just making a ridiculous suggestion that has no guarantee of even working.



> You have lots of options but don't seem happy with ANY of them. You've made that known. I'm 100% satisfied because I have passsive entry and don't even need to carry a fob. I've made that known.
> 
> Over and out.


you continue to gloss over the fact that we don't have "lots of options" as far as passive entry goes and refuse to listen to anyone who tries to explain what passive entry actually is...but yeah, we're the ones who are being unreasonable.

have a good night.


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## PNWmisty (Aug 19, 2017)

le


Bigriver said:


> So my bottom line question is, what am I to do? You advocate buying a new phone. Where is the approved phone list that is guaranteed to work? I don't know anything about Bluetooth specs. Has Apple been improving Bluetooth with the latest releases of their phone?


Getting a phone that works 100% of the time does not necessarily involve buying a new phone. Phones are highly configurable pocket computers. Both my wife and I had to configure our phones initially to get 100% functionality. I wish I could say the settings I changed but the menu's on the Samsung are wide and deep (with sometimes hard to find sub-menus). The amount of configurability is astounding. And the menu items are not always self-explanatory. I just switched everything that seemed like it might keep Bluetooth awake and had success without having to ever dive back into the menus again.

The other thing I suspect is causing issues for some people are third party apps, particularly ones with Bluetooth functionality. There are literally millions of "programmers" out there without proper training or skills to make good solid code. I avoid loading my phone up with apps because I want it to have 100% solid functionality. My wife is not into apps either so our phones are pretty "clean". The phones OS should be bullet proof in terms of third party apps "breaking" it but we know that's not the case. But I bet I could make most phones in the last year or two work 100% simply by not screwing them up. Nothing in this life is perfect and most things can be screwed up. Some people are particularly talented at creating problems in their life.

[RANT]
My advice: If anyone doesn't like the amazing products Tesla designes and creates, they shouldn't support them with their hard-earned dollars. People should only fund manufacturers that make products they actually like - there are a lot of choices out there. This is how the market creates products. People vote with their dollars. People that endlessly belly-ache that the product is not good enough for them start to sound entitled. And before anyone falls down that road, I would ask them to look at themselves and ask what product they have created that people love so much they are willing to throw billions of dollars their way. Then criticize the failures, not the successes. Tesla doesn't make products for one individual, they make them for the masses. Nobody is forcing anyone to buy a Tesla. You have free choice.
[/RANT]


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## garsh (Apr 4, 2016)

crackers8199 said:


> i think that is what blows my mind the most about the tesla community - the sheer volume of people who are so dead set against giving anyone any other options other than what is already provided. this is the "tesla is infallible, this is how they released the car so it must be perfect" mentality i'm talking about...


Every community has its advocates. But you've carried on a continuous, contentious discussion with a single person in this thread, and then decide to lash-out against the rest of the community. Why?

You have made your point. You do not like Tesla's phone solution. But you also don't like Tesla's fob solution. I think we all understand why you do not like either solution. And I can understand the frustration that you must feel that you haven't been able to figure out how to get your phone working reliably. But I'm not sure what type of reaction you'd like from people here.

Are you trying to gather supporters for a "grass-roots" attempt at convincing Tesla to provide a third option?

Would you like some help configuring your phone to work as intended?


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## MelindaV (Apr 2, 2016)

PNWmisty said:


> My unscientific observation is that iPhones seem to be one of the bigger offenders of not working 100%. And I think it's something built into the OS to save battery power. On the other hand, Android phones seem to either work 100% or be even more problematic than iPhones. I think both Android and Apple problems stem from both the manufacturer's software AND misbehaving apps.


This is the exact opposite of what many posts and threads show here. The rare iPhone has issue, while many android users have had to go thru extra steps to get their phones working reliably.


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## Madmolecule (Oct 8, 2018)

I am working to make my phone solution more reliably. I am not the typical iPhone user in that I have many apps, but I use about 10-15 very often. I can't speak for everyone but my criticism is only to help turn an amazing product into a perfect product. I have voted with my wallet and I will continue to express my opinion until I am banned, which the way the forum is headed, mightn't be too long. Tesla and this forum seem to have a lot of scar tissue from short traders. I take a critical view of every revelutionary purchase I have ever made. newton, palm pilot, pocket pc, iPhone or Uber for that matter. They revolutionized taxis, which were painful, and the market was desperate for a new way. Uber fixed many of the problems with taxis or ride-share but is it perfect and without flaws. NO. I guess I should keep my mouth shut or go back to Taxis. The Model 3 is a revolutionary car in a good way. The delivery and service might be revolutionary but it still sucks; in my opinion.


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## PNWmisty (Aug 19, 2017)

MelindaV said:


> This is the exact opposite of what many posts and threads show here. The rare iPhone has issue, while many android users have had to go thru extra steps to get their phones working reliably.


If that were true, Crackers8199 could just buy almost any iPhone, even a used one, and he would have 100% functionality of "phone as key"?

That doesn't seem too difficult, does it?


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## crackers8199 (Jun 7, 2018)

garsh said:


> Would you like some help configuring your phone to work as intended?


sure, I'll bite. I've had the car for four months and tried literally every suggestion I could find, but if you have some magic potion that will make this thing work the way it's supposed to, by all means...

if i had just taken delivery last week, i'd be a lot more forgiving (and i was when i took delivery back in july)...thinking they would make it better in time. at this point though, it has been four months and if anything it has gotten worse, not better.


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## crackers8199 (Jun 7, 2018)

PNWmisty said:


> [RANT]
> My advice: If anyone doesn't like the amazing products Tesla designes and creates, they shouldn't support them with their hard-earned dollars. People should only fund manufacturers that make products they actually like - there are a lot of choices out there. This is how the market creates products. People vote with their dollars. People that endlessly belly-ache that the product is not good enough for them start to sound entitled. And before anyone falls down that road, I would ask them to look at themselves and ask what product they have created that people love so much they are willing to throw billions of dollars their way. Then criticize the failures, not the successes. Tesla doesn't make products for one individual, they make them for the masses. Nobody is forcing anyone to buy a Tesla. You have free choice.
> [/RANT]


this is what i was talking about with the "tesla is infallible" mentality - it is in fact possible to love the car and still point out a serious flaw. it does not have to be one or the other. you don't have to accept every single flaw with any given product and never voice your opinion on said flaw...that kind of mentality is what causes problems to never be fixed and technology to never advance.

if me being upset that the PRIMARY (and again, tesla STILL TO THIS DAY lists it as such knowing it does not work for many of us) method of entering and driving my new $60k vehicle doesn't work half the time or more makes me sound "entitled," so be it. yes, i think when purchasing a car we should be entitled to a primary key that works 100% of the time. please, don't tell me how i can use the key card...the card is intended by tesla to be a BACKUP method of entry. not primary.



PNWmisty said:


> If that were true, Crackers8199 could just buy almost any iPhone, even a used one, and he would have 100% functionality of "phone as key"?
> 
> That doesn't seem too difficult, does it?


...with no guarantee it would work. I love how you always seem to leave that part out.

putting aside your constant condescension, I'll throw the same question to you - in the interest of having an open mind: what magic settings did you use to get this working on your phone? I'm curious, because I've used literally every trick I've seen others say to use anywhere I can find in the four months I've had the car, and the damn thing still doesn't work.

if I'm missing something, please enlighten me. seriously...


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## PNWmisty (Aug 19, 2017)

crackers8199 said:


> if I'm missing something, please enlighten me. seriously...


You're missing the meaning of "Over and out".


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## crackers8199 (Jun 7, 2018)

PNWmisty said:


> You're missing the meaning of "Over and out".


thanks for the excellent help. peace.


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## jsmay311 (Oct 2, 2017)

PNWmisty said:


> People should only fund manufacturers that make products they actually like - there are a lot of choices out there.


I wish there were a lot of choices *_for what I'm looking for in a car*_, which is an all-electric vehicle capable of practical/convenient interstate driving. If there was a single non-Tesla vehicle that met this description, I would have very strongly considered it.

But Tesla currently has an effective monopoly on that segment of the EV market, and it will continue to have an effective monopoly until a comparable rival to the Supercharger network is built out. Until *at least* that time, I'll remain a (somewhat-disgruntled) Tesla owner, and I'll continue complaining in person and online about the long list of stupid little things about this car that bug the s*** out of me and offend me as both a consumer and as an engineer.


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