# Front Wheel Drive? (Why not? - Logic please!)



## 17.0880074906351 (Oct 16, 2016)

I've been trying to understand why Tesla is only offering the drivetrain in a All wheel or Rear wheel configuration, and not also (or instead) in a Front Wheel drive configuration. If anyone can provide me with some reasonable explanation, I'd certainly like to hear it. 

They're obviously able to squeeze the motor in the front along with the steering mechanism, so technology can't be the reason. 

I suppose they may not like the idea of leaving an open cavity in the rear for collision crunch zones, but that should be able to be overcome with some reinforcement pieces. 

OK, Front wheel drive, immediately adjacent to the steering may be a bit more expensive than a rear wheel drive, but I can't imagine it's TOO pricey. 

Given snow and other road hazards, I can't be the only person who would rather have a Front Wheel Drive Tesla over a Rear Wheel Drive Tesla. 


Can anyone provide some better insight?


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## MelindaV (Apr 2, 2016)

because front wheel drive works in an ICE because of the engine weight. Not so much in an EV. It would be pulling all the weight. There was a writeup a while back that did a great job going over the physics of why the car's weight distribution makes a huge difference in how FWD/RWD/AWD react. I'll see if I can find it - unless someone else beats me to it.


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## Michael Russo (Oct 15, 2016)

Plus if you think of it most entry luxury ICE vehicles targeted by T≡SLA with Model ≡ (with the exception of Audi) are also RWD. Much more fun to drive. I had an Audi A6 years ago and found its road handling stiff & lame... IMHO


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## garsh (Apr 4, 2016)

17.088 ^2 said:


> I've been trying to understand why Tesla is only offering the drivetrain in a All wheel or Rear wheel configuration, and not also (or instead) in a Front Wheel drive configuration.



AWD is better than FWD, and they offer AWD
RWD is better for acceleration than FWD
RWD is better for driving dynamics than FWD
FWD cars have problems with torque steer. Electric cars have tons of low-end torque
FWD is preferred for inexpensive combustion vehicles for two main reasons:

You don't need a driveshaft tunnel, which means less intrusion into the middle back seat's foot area.
It puts most of the weight of the car right over the drive wheels (most of an electric car's weight is batteries, not motor).
Neither of these reasons really applies to electric cars. I'm often spinning the tires in my Nissan Leaf, especially when the roads are a little wet. Much of the car's weight is in the battery, and it's FWD. When you start accelerating, it lifts even more weight off of the front of the car, which is not good when trying to accelerate in a FWD car.


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## 17.0880074906351 (Oct 16, 2016)

Hmmmm... 
OK people, you've given me some food for thought. 
I guess, especially given all the examples from Norway, that I shouldn't worry too much about performance in the snow.


(Especially given how pathetically little of the white stuff we had this year... but hey, global warming is a myth, global warming is a myth, say it three times, maybe I'll believe it.)


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## Mark C (Aug 26, 2016)

17.088 ^2 said:


> Given snow and other road hazards, I can't be the only person who would rather have a Front Wheel Drive Tesla over a Rear Wheel Drive Tesla. Can anyone provide some better insight?


In a book I read about the Chevrolet Corvair, {rear engine / air cooled flat 6 / vw challenger}, a man went to pickup his car at the dealership in MI, but it had been snowed in when a snow plow went by. He asked the dealer to help him get the car out, but the dealer wouldn't, not until after he tried to drive it out first. He was very surprised that it actually did drive out.

Perhaps having the right balance of weight over the driven wheels is more important than which end of the car the driven wheels are on. I do hope it has traction control though.


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## Badback (Apr 7, 2016)

17.088 ^2 said:


> I've been trying to understand why Tesla is only offering the drivetrain in a All wheel or Rear wheel configuration, and not also (or instead) in a Front Wheel drive configuration. If anyone can provide me with some reasonable explanation, I'd certainly like to hear it.
> 
> They're obviously able to squeeze the motor in the front along with the steering mechanism, so technology can't be the reason.
> 
> ...


Front wheel drive is a traction solution. It puts the front mounted engine over the driven wheels. The extra weight improves traction. A front engine rear wheel drive car lacks good traction. IIRC, Citroen invented this design, called the Citroen Traction Avant, in 1934. This design also simplifies the vehicle by eliminating the drive shaft and integrating the differential with the transmission. Some claim, and I agree, that the ability to move the driven wheels side to side helps in slippery conditions. This also simplifies assembly because the whole drive unit goes in as one. Disadvantages include torque steer, limited turning circle and a tendency to 'plow' in turns because of unequal weight distribution.
Rear wheel drive improves driving dynamics by permitting drifting in turns.
For Tesla, the drive motor is over the driven wheels in any case, and most of the weight is in the battery pack in the center. So, comparing a Tesla to an ICE car is inappropriate, IMNSHO.


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## Gary Moore (Apr 10, 2016)

My first car was a Corvair. During a major blizzard in Flint, I once took a fellow student home who had made the mistake of riding his Yamaha motorbike to class before a couple feet of snow fell in a few hours. The side street that he lived on had not been plowed.

I plowed it with my Corvair going home from his place. The scary part was judging deceleration as I hit the end of his street at Grand Traverse. I didn't want to slow too fast and get stuck in a snow drift, but I didn't think that cruising through a red light onto the main drag was a good idea either. Mission accomplished.



Badback said:


> Rear wheel drive improves driving dynamics by permitting drifting in turns.


As Badback noted, the weight distribution is key.

In the Eighties, I used to drive home over that very stretch of I-85 in Altanta north of the Connector which burnt up and collapsed yesterday.

Rather that take the Perimeter (I-285) home across the north side, I'd take I-75 south into town going home and take the left hand ramp back up I-85 north.

One day, some guy in a BMW 318 came screaming up on the rear bumper of my Fiero GT as I'm approaching the hairpin turn of the ramp to I-85.

I have had very few accidents, but most of them involve my being hit from behind, so I was a tad displeased.

So, I demonstrated to Mr. Ultimate Driving Machine what having the engine over the rear drive wheels meant. I accelerated through the hairpin turn, and he was no longer on my bumper. Fortunately for him, he didn't try to keep up with me through the turn. That would have been a very severe error on his part.

Please don't drive as I do, but if you do drive, always remember that the laws of physics are not the kind which you can violate.


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## MelindaV (Apr 2, 2016)

I've only had one FWD car - which was also my first 5-speed bought new in feb 2000. When it was a few months old, and I was driving it one Sunday morning with a migraine and apparently forgetting how to drive... 
I was leaving a shopping center on the outskirts of town and while sitting at the light waiting to turn left onto the highway, I was laughing at the car pulled over just down the highway the other direction as I would be going. Light turned green and I pulled onto the highway. This is just about when 80's stations started coming up and Joan Jett's I Love Rock & Roll came on, which made me smile and headache much better (what can I say, I'm a product of the 80s...). a half mile later I was coming up on the reduced speed sign at the edge of town and looked down to see what my speed was (see I didn't even pay attention on a regular basis to my gauges behind the steering wheel then!) and saw I was right at the reduced speed limit but my RPMs were around 5500-6000 instead of half that as they normally would be. So quickly shifted up from 1st or 2nd to 4th (going 40! ha) and the car swerved a ridiculous amount once in the correct gear. Cop apparently had finished with the other car because he then was behind me pulling me over to see if I was drinking! When he got to my window first thing he he said was something like "I saw you swerve and thought maybe you were drunk, but can see you are not". I asked him how many drunk drivers he gets before noon on a sunday and he just looked at me like I asked if he's seen anyone speeding since he's been a cop. Still no idea how he decided I wasn't drinking before I even opened my mouth... but I tend not to laugh at others pulled over any more


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## S Gibb (Nov 8, 2016)

Their seems to be some misconceptions about front wheel drive. First off, you cannot compare weight distribution of an ICE car to that of an BEV. Most BEV's are now coming with battery packs that takes up the entire bottom of the vehicle, which is the majority of the cars weight. So it does not matter where you place the drive unit. Its just a matter of pushing VS pulling weight. i'll come back to this later.

Second. with a BEV torque steer is a thing of the past even with sophisticated traction and launch control. The reason torque steer happens is due to the lengths of the CV shafts (drive shafts). With an ICE vehicle with FWD this is mostly due to the fact that the engine sits on one side and the transmission (final drive) on the other. So the short drive shaft will always have more twist (torque) as it is closer to the output than the longer driveshaft, an unequal amount of twist = torque steer. With Tesla and possibly other manufacturers this is solved simply by having the final drive very close to the center of the vehicle therefore equal length drive shafts going to your wheels. The slight difference in driveshaft lengths on the Tesla is made up for by a small shaft directly splined to the final drive, which then allows for equal length drive shafts.

Last push VS pull. Mostly for the snowy climate folks. RWD is the superior way of moving a car around in dry to wet conditions. Snow and ice are a completely different story. Now lets say you're trying to move through snow with a FWD car, you stop, then you spin your wheels trying to get going again and eventually get up to speed no problems. Same situation with a RWD car, you stop, then you spin your wheels to try to get going again. ooops you put too much power down, now your rear wheels are moving faster than your front and your rear end overtakes your front end, you're spinning out. Try to stop a 4000lb spinning rock it takes a while. This situation applies to pretty much any speed as well not just from a stop in snowy/ice conditions.


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## RickDeckard (Apr 7, 2017)

I prefer front wheel drive because most of the time i dont care but in my situation the only time i Do care is when driving in snow or icy roads when it feels like you are sliding like a boat, and i have the impression that it makes a difference between having front wheels at an angle and just merrily sliding along vs having the wheels powerfully rotating in the direction you want to go to avoid crashing into the sidewalk, a car, a fence, or an 18 wheeler semi truck coming in the opposite direction seconds away from a head on collision (which is not an enjoyable situation), etc.

This said ill probably be looking at dual for all wheel drive, more so if theres no FWD option.


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## Tom Bodera (Aug 10, 2016)

S Gibb said:


> Their seems to be some misconceptions about front wheel drive. First off, you cannot compare weight distribution of an ICE car to that of an BEV. Most BEV's are now coming with battery packs that takes up the entire bottom of the vehicle, which is the majority of the cars weight. So it does not matter where you place the drive unit. Its just a matter of pushing VS pulling weight. i'll come back to this later.
> 
> Second. with a BEV torque steer is a thing of the past even with sophisticated traction and launch control. The reason torque steer happens is due to the lengths of the CV shafts (drive shafts). With an ICE vehicle with FWD this is mostly due to the fact that the engine sits on one side and the transmission (final drive) on the other. So the short drive shaft will always have more twist (torque) as it is closer to the output than the longer driveshaft, an unequal amount of twist = torque steer. With Tesla and possibly other manufacturers this is solved simply by having the final drive very close to the center of the vehicle therefore equal length drive shafts going to your wheels. The slight difference in driveshaft lengths on the Tesla is made up for by a small shaft directly splined to the final drive, which then allows for equal length drive shafts.
> 
> Last push VS pull. Mostly for the snowy climate folks. RWD is the superior way of moving a car around in dry to wet conditions. Snow and ice are a completely different story. Now lets say you're trying to move through snow with a FWD car, you stop, then you spin your wheels trying to get going again and eventually get up to speed no problems. Same situation with a RWD car, you stop, then you spin your wheels to try to get going again. ooops you put too much power down, now your rear wheels are moving faster than your front and your rear end overtakes your front end, you're spinning out. Try to stop a 4000lb spinning rock it takes a while. This situation applies to pretty much any speed as well not just from a stop in snowy/ice conditions.


I live in the Snowbelt so yes a FWD car or AWD would be the best choices because of S Gibb's writeup. I will also have to wait for the big D.


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## JWardell (May 9, 2016)

It's simply a matter of total traction of the contact patch of the tire's rubber on the road surface. The front tires are already using much of their traction for steering. FWD requires them share steering and propulsion, so in low traction situations it is very easy for them to lose traction and spin and not steer. RWD gives propulsion two dedicated wheels that do nothing else but push. Decades ago when cars weights were far from balanced and 70% of the weight was up front in a huge cast iron engine block the front wheels did benefit from the extra weight, but that has not been the case for a long time. I've driven many FWD cars, and I sorely miss my BMW 1 series, _especially_ in the snow. Plus, Tesla's above average traction control will make this all moot.


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## 17.0880074906351 (Oct 16, 2016)

When it came to the issue of deciding that BEVs versus PHEVs, it took me a long time to decide in favor of Tesla and BEVs (versus PHEVs). Until the first week of October last year to be precise (i.e.: my $1000 down).

Likewise, it seems that it took me a (not quite as) long time to decide that a Rear-wheel drive BEV is good enough for my needs, and I don't have to hold out (cash or time) for All-wheel drive.

But, I'd like to be sure...

= = = = =

_I'd like to pose these questions to those of you who have driven (especially those who OWN) a Telsa Model S or X in the Northern Climates. I'm thinking Norway, Sweden, All of Canada, and those US States (like MN) that border Canada: _

What are your opinions re a Tesla's performance in Snow?
i.e.: If you've driven a Rear wheel drive S or X in snow, PLEASE tell me/us about it.

Or, to put it another way...
If you do NOT care about "Ludicrous Mode" or high-performance issues, and are primarily concerned about safety, reliability, economy, etc., then is there any justifiable reason to pay for All-wheel drive for primarily SNOW related reasons?

17.088 ^2

.


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## $ Trillion Musk (Nov 5, 2016)

I'm still debating whether to forgo AWD in order to save a little $ as well as enjoy RWD driving dynamics. Or is it worth the extra cost for additional safety and battery efficiency? Anyway here's a nice short video of Tesla RWDriving in snowy Norwegian winters. (Published on YouTube months before D announcement.)


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## JBsC6 (Oct 17, 2016)

Most luxury sports sedans today are rwd and offer awd as an option.

Rwd platforms or rwd biased platforms offer superior driving dynamics.

That is why rwd is the chosen drive wheels in sports sedans.

The logic given above in a few of the posts are somewhat inaccurate with regards to handling and drive wheels.

Asking the front wheel drive only cars to accelerate and turn creates multiple forces working against the tire at the same time limiting handling traction.

For a street car ? Who cares I'm sure as tire limits are so high these days.?

Still since the OP asked the question...this is the answer.

Fwd in the near luxury and luxury segment went the way of the dodo bird here in the United States...

Quite frankly it's awd for sport sedan segment volume...

The snow country states practically demand that awd be offered..

Most people don't want to own a set of dedicated winter snow tires any longer...(I do ) Most purchases in this segment in America are leases so to go through the hassle of dedicated winter tires is foolish I would imagine too.

So awd with all seasons seems to be the preferred setup...

Tesla was right in its decision for rwd and offer awd....

Fwd belongs on the utilitarian Chevy Bolt..


JMO in New Jersey I Drive my corvette in the winter with dedicated snow tires and wheels or I'm not going anywhere...(all season being a waste in snow for rwd) but with awd being offered in the tesla model3? No question....get the awd version....good luck deciding


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## RickDeckard (Apr 7, 2017)

Winter tires are a better in snow and ice imo, depending on the situation it could be that the difference is too small to notice as you are driving, but a small difference can sometimes make the difference between "oh shhh... oof, that was close" and "oh shhh.. BANG!". (Its quite annoying to be stopped at a red light and be rear ended by a driver that "almost" stopped in time.)











and while being a bit off topic might as well add this :


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## 17.0880074906351 (Oct 16, 2016)

Ooops. I did forget one minor issue:
We routinely travel to the in-laws, a trip of 331 miles one way.
{_Yes, there are THREE (or four) superchargers along the way, so I admit the below is at least to SOME extent a moot point._} 
-----

As I recall, an All wheel drive BEV has slightly more miles range, given the same battery, etc., versus a rear (or front) wheel drive BEV.

1. Is my memory correct about this?
2. Would it actually make a _significant_ difference over a 331 mile trip, given a Model 3's expected smaller battery?

.


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## RickDeckard (Apr 7, 2017)

no, based on the S ranges, it would not make a significant difference (8-9 miles) and maybe you would have to supercharge even with a 75 unless you like to live on the edge (unless the Model 3 75 has more range than Model S 100D which has about 335 mi). It sounds like you would have been a person that would have liked a bigger than 75 battery.(im lucky in the sense that in my case the base battery will be more than enough).


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## MelindaV (Apr 2, 2016)

17.088 ^2 said:


> As I recall, an All wheel drive BEV has slightly more miles range, given the same battery, etc., versus a rear (or front) wheel drive BEV.
> 
> 1. Is my memory correct about this?
> 2. Would it actually make a _significant_ difference over a 331 mile trip, given a Model 3's expected smaller battery?
> ...


Here's a screenshot of the Model S range calculator (Tesla has quite useful info on their site - this is under the main Model S page)..
so 6 mile difference between the 60 and 60D - so in your 331 example, the dual motor option would have an extra 9ish miles over the rear motor


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## 17.0880074906351 (Oct 16, 2016)

Yea, I agree 9 miles is just NOT worth it, especially since we'd have the home charger, one supercharger on the way out of town, three in route, and eventually a class 2 (240V 50A) at the in-laws. 

Larger battery (only for peace of mind) and REAR wheel drive only will be my selections when the time comes. 

.


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## MelindaV (Apr 2, 2016)

17.088 ^2 said:


> Yea, I agree 9 miles is just NOT worth it, especially since we'd have the home charger, one supercharger on the way out of town, three in route, and eventually a class 2 (240V 50A) at the in-laws.
> 
> Larger battery (only for peace of mind) and REAR wheel drive only will be my selections when the time comes.
> 
> .


keeping the speed at 60 or less makes a much bigger impact


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## garsh (Apr 4, 2016)

17.088 ^2 said:


> As I recall, an All wheel drive BEV has slightly more miles range, given the same battery, etc., versus a rear (or front) wheel drive BEV.


Only because Tesla geared the front motor to favor highway efficiency, while the rear motor is geared to favor acceleration. When you are cruising an AWD S on the highway, it mainly uses the front motor for the better efficiency.

They'll_ probably_ do the same sort of thing for the 3, but I could also imagine a non-performance RWD 3 being geared for efficiency instead. We'll have to see.


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## KenR (Aug 9, 2016)

I am not, by any stretch of the imagination, a motorhead. i have no expertise in power trains, vehicle weight distribution, etc. i do know, from personal experience,that a FWD ICE car is far superior for traction in the snow and ice, presumably because of the heavy engine weight over the driven wheels. That same logic led many RWD ICE car owners to put heavy sandbags the trunk (or truck bed) to improve traction. I doubt those dynamics apply to BEVs where the weight is centered in the bottom of the car. Because i lack expertise in these areas, I choose to rely on someone who has the knowledge and expertise. In this case, Elon Musk. I trust his opinions on most EV matters. He has often said you'd want RWD on a performance car, and that even in icey/snowy conditions, Tesla's RWD will perform much better than you would expect. I still want AWD, but am not at all concerned about getting a RWD Model 3.


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## Michael Russo (Oct 15, 2016)

RickDeckard said:


> Winter tires are a better in snow and ice imo, depending on the situation
> (...)


To close on the somewhat (yet not totally - see below) off topic, please note, IMNSHO, are always better under a certain temperature (say. 5-7 deg.C/40-45 deg.F) thanks to the much softer rubber blend they are made of. 
Therefore it's immaterial whether you drive an AWD or not, you're always better off from a safety point of view, unless you live in one of those constantly warm areas...
In some countries, notably in Germany, winter tires are mandatory for several months in the year (think from October to April!).
Finally remember that, though they wear a little faster due to the softer thread, you obviously don't put any kms/miles on your summer tires when they're not on your car!


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## Michael Russo (Oct 15, 2016)

MelindaV said:


> keeping the speed at 60 or less makes a much bigger impact]


Yeah, @MelindaV , but _who_ will really do that, with all due respect...? I am serene with tuning down from my average 80 of today but anything under 65-70 ok long distances would force me to go for full self driving 'cause I'd fall asleep...


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## MelindaV (Apr 2, 2016)

just saying, if people are truly concerned about range, that's the easiest way to extend it


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## UncleT (Apr 9, 2017)

Personally I prefer the way a RWD car handles while cornering compared to FWD, and the lack of any torque-steer when accelerating briskly is also nice.


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## Guest (Apr 28, 2017)

Holy cow. I haven't added my _mousse _to this discussion? How dare I.

Why I hate FWD? Well. Have some people noticed that when they are at the intersection
launching after a green light to left or right, they actually can't accelerate fast while
they turn. Well. That is because front tires have to turn and accelerate at the same time.
And some magical force pushed the vehicle center of gravity out of center, to the outer side.
Situation gets worse when there is lots of torque from standstill.

My 80kW Leaf spins the inner tire all the time, no matter is it slippery winter or dry summer.
Technically it is possible to partially solve that problem with LSD. But why?
If one can fit the whole drivetrain under the rear seats and partially trunk. Why bother pushing
everything under the hood? Cargo capacity doesn't actually increase, not meaningfully.

This is why I drive 5-series and Leaf. When I overheat due to tractional problems I calm myself with bimmer.


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## garsh (Apr 4, 2016)

arnis said:


> Technically it is possible to partially solve that problem with LSD.


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## Guest (Apr 28, 2017)

garsh said:


>


just to be ABSOLUTELY sure that everybody on the planet Earth understands:
Limited Slip Differential - porn for car guys


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## Seth Patterson (Jan 18, 2017)

Please don't make the mistake of believing that all season tires will work in the snow. All season tires are a compromise in every season and road condition and purely exist because it's what the American public has been sold as "safe" and that's what they expect to have on a new vehicle. In europe RWD cars are sold on summer tires and you purchase your winters. If you try to drive on all-seasons on any RWD car in freezing conditions or snow do yourself and your family a favor and install a set of tires designed for those conditions.


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## AndyL (Apr 7, 2016)

Here in the U.K. most cars are FWD. I have friends who go on about the driving dynamics of their BMW, but hot hatches are fun to drive too, and are all FWD(with a few very expensive AWD options), and some have over 300bhp. The only time I notice if cars have front or rear drive is when we get a bit (1-2cm)of snow, and all you see down the side of the motorway is bmw's and porsches whose summer tyres cant cope. FWD, no problem. Never seen a RWD model S on the side though!


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## mkg3 (May 25, 2017)

17.088 ^2 said:


> I've been trying to understand why Tesla is only offering the drivetrain in a All wheel or Rear wheel configuration, and not also (or instead) in a Front Wheel drive configuration. If anyone can provide me with some reasonable explanation, I'd certainly like to hear it.......
> 
> Can anyone provide some better insight?


More basic and directly understandable reason. RWD cars are more fun to drive than FWD cars. I've own many of both over the years.

Yes driving dynamics and so on, but at the end of the day, given Tesla's low cg, and RWD, it results in a better experience for the driver.

As for AWD, it helps put more power on the road as the car is accelerating - both straight line and through the corners. More rubber (4 patches) pushing and pulling the car than just pushing or pulling using 2 patches

Safety and adverse weather. abilities - yes but Audi Quattro proved how superior AWD is on the race track couple of decades ago....


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## Guest (Jun 23, 2017)

Front axle can not handle 200 horses. It barely handles 100 horses.
My Leaf constantly spins one wheel whenever I try to accelerate and turn at the same time at low speed.
Front axle is for steering, rear for acceleration. This is how it works well.
AWD is class above that.


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## TesLou (Aug 20, 2016)

Michael Russo said:


> Yeah, @MelindaV , but _who_ will really do that, with all due respect...? I am serene with tuning down from my average 80 of today but anything under 65-70 ok long distances would force me to go for full self driving 'cause I'd fall asleep...


Amen, brother. Exactly my thoughts.


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## Winemaker01 (Dec 30, 2016)

Elon has posted a comment about RWD for winter driving. He tweeted:


> But RWD with electric is really good in snow (assuming all weather or winter tires), as traction control is far more precise.


However, I live on a farm and many roads near my home are dirt/gravel. So wonder if anyone has much knowledge of Teslas on dirt and gravel.


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## JBsC6 (Oct 17, 2016)

Logic doesn't matter... today the fairer sex believes awd means safety..

You don't argue...you just say yes dear and make it happen..

Since when did logic have anything to do with the popularity and sales of awd vehicles?

I'm not being a smart @ss...I'm serious...

Tesla Just needs to produce awd vehicles so owners have harmony in their lives...

There is not even a discussion in areas of the United States that has snow even if it just happens once a year...

Nothing else, no logic , no rational thoughts need be applied..

Just don't poke the bear..

Get with the program


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## RatThings (Oct 31, 2016)

I know this has been asked and answered in a multitude of ways but here is my situation and I'd mostly I'd like to know how they feel to _drive_.

I got my license in Boone, NC in 1980 in a FWD, 4-speed car-shell (5 yo, hard-rode, Rabbit). All I've ever owned/driven are FWD, manual sedans (except a year with my brother's turbo Eclipse sporty car rather than my Stanza when he got into ticket trouble). Both RWD or AWD will be new to me. [Can you have "both" and "or" in the same sentence? Nothing I try seems right. Would the fact that I care show my age if I hadn't already?]

I live in Wisconsin but signs point to going back to Boone within the next 2 years. Roads are curvy, steep and can be dirt or gravel. My driveway could be all of these. Hopefully snow too. I attached is a video of me driving a rental down into Valle Crucis to the Mast General Store last week when I was visiting the area. https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/shares/0U7n83

EDIT: this shows the area better, trying to get to what we called the "Top of Boone" (had an experimental wind turbine when i lived here), sort of forgot the way https://www.flickr.com/gp/[email protected]/wV91c8

I've driven my 2003 Accord since Nov 2002. My Tesla will be 15 years newer than any car I've had AND have EV and Tesla advances. I've never even had a fob though my car has a screen - an LCD screen.

Links or just a list of phrases would be great unless narrative is really called for. I'm wondering:

1) How are RWD and AWD going to handle, really drive compared to what I'm used to? Will I have to relearn backing into a perpendicular parking space? At speed handling matters even more - for instance, will the back end NOT try to come around (from being too light) like when I would downshift to stay in a curve I'm taking as fast as possible? Things like that are what I want to know - if you _drive_ a car, is AWD required over RWD?

2) what are the differences for things like range, charge time, acceleration - this is probably summed up in many places, where is it best/most correctly presented? and

3) as someone new to EV (but with a Master's of Science - I understand the physics and chemistry, a musk, I mean, a must) - what am I _not_ thinking about that I should be?

Unfortunately, cost is a consideration so I'll be getting the "smallest" battery. I hope to drive this car until I die or 30 years, whichever comes first - shouldn't it last twice as long as my Honda? I ordered online an hour before Central Time was supposed to go live on 3/31. Delaying for AWD probably means losing $3750 in tax credits - Super ouch! Essentially it will cost me $8750 (if AWD upgrade stays at $5K), or about a 20% price increase (planning on glass roof, color and enhanced autopilot).


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## Michael Russo (Oct 15, 2016)

RatThings said:


> I know this has been asked and answered in a multitude of ways but here is my situation and I'd mostly I'd like to know how they feel to _drive_. (...) I'm wondering:
> 
> 1) (...)Things like that are what I want to know - if you _drive_ a car, is AWD required over RWD?
> 
> ...


Liz (it is Liz, isn't it? ), intriguing little video! Let me offer a couple of things:

1. On the merits of AWD vs. RWD, including some references to FWD, scroll through this thread - lots of stuff already written!
2. Order Getting Ready for Model 3 from Evannex (http://evannex.com/) - Already a year or so old now yet still a great for anyone new to EVs!
3. Get yourself a Model S test drive at your nearest T≡SLA whenever feasible. Try to get a 75 (D or not), that is enough to give you a good feel. Warning: it will make you even more impatient for Model ≡!! 

Sure others will have other complementary advice...


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## MelindaV (Apr 2, 2016)

RatThings said:


> I know this has been asked and answered in a multitude of ways but here is my situation and I'd mostly I'd like to know how they feel to _drive_.
> 
> I got my license in Boone, NC in 1980 in a FWD, 4-speed car-shell (5 yo, hard-rode, Rabbit). All I've ever owned/driven are FWD, manual sedans (except a year with my brother's turbo Eclipse sporty car rather than my Stanza when he got into ticket trouble). Both RWD or AWD will be new to me. [Can you have "both" and "or" in the same sentence? Nothing I try seems right. Would the fact that I care show my age if I hadn't already?]
> 
> ...


I've been driving manual cars since 2000 (auto before that) and have both a FWD and RWD (no AWD) and 99% of the time the difference for me between the two is negligible. Between my cars, the center of gravity in a corner is a much larger difference than which is powered from the front or back.

1) I think just as if you moved into a new automatic gasoline car, it'll take you a few miles to get the feel of it. from prior new owners comments, doubt much more than that
2) for range differences, check post #22 above for the differences between the RWD and Dual motor Model S (and the other posts in this thread). Dual motors does help range - specifically at freeway speeds because the smaller front motor is tuned for sustained speed vs the larger rear motor does it all. Also, the two different screenshots in that post show keeping the speed in check makes a much bigger difference in overall range than the dual motor.
3) fuel savings. actually I'm sure you are already thinking of that ; oh, and regen braking. In my mind, that will be the biggest driving dynamic change.


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## Winemaker01 (Dec 30, 2016)

Still no comments about electric drive on dirt/gravel people. Has anyone got experience?


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## garsh (Apr 4, 2016)

Winemaker01 said:


> Still no comments about electric drive on dirt/gravel people. Has anyone got experience?


I've driven my Leaf (FWD) on dirt/gravel. There's nothing really exceptional about it. The one thing that's nice (for snow too) is that the throttle isn't really "sensitive". My Honda Odyssey (and many other modern cars) are made to seem "peppy" by having touchy throttle response. This is horrible for controlling acceleration is situations where you don't want to spin the tires (like snow or gravel). Teslas also offer that fine control at small throttle applications.

BTW, your post made that question appear to be part of Musk's quoted tweet. I overlooked it originally because of that. If you'd like, I could reformat it for you to make it more readable.


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## Winemaker01 (Dec 30, 2016)

Yes reformat please.


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## SSonnentag (Mar 30, 2017)

RWD is preferred by driving enthusiasts and RWD most likely helps balance the card front and rear.


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## Guest (Jun 25, 2017)

JBsC6 said:


> Since when did logic have anything to do with the popularity and sales of awd vehicles?


Therefore Tesla educating buyers at stores (not like dealerships, who push AWD to everybody just to get more money out of you) is helping here too. It takes like 5 minutes to explain, that one need's traction while skidding sideways, not acceleration. AWD doesn't give you any traction sideways. Nor does it help to slow down.
Therefore you need winter tires if you are worried, not AWD. AWD Tesla will lose in all slippery winter conditions with all-season tires compared to RWD Tesla with dedicated M/S or winter tires. Not only braking and cornering, also acceleration.
AWD costs like few thousands extra. One set of winter tires costs 5x less. As the result you use summer tires in summer, and get all-year around better results, not only winter. Summer tires have better grip in summer compared to AS-tires.



Winemaker01 said:


> Still no comments about electric drive on dirt/gravel people. Has anyone got experience?


Well there is no difference between dirt/gravel/snow for drivetrain. Tires determine the result.
Tesla has very fast traction control response rate (Nissan Leaf BTW does not!). It helps on all "loose" surfaces.
You have to get appropriate tires for gravel/dirt. Summer tires are no good for mud. Tires that are good for gravel/dirt might be M/S tires (Mud&Snow). Though they are not good in warm/hot weather.


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## Peter Egan (Jun 6, 2017)

17.088 ^2 said:


> I've been trying to understand why Tesla is only offering the drivetrain in a All wheel or Rear wheel configuration, and not also (or instead) in a Front Wheel drive configuration. If anyone can provide me with some reasonable explanation, I'd certainly like to hear it.
> 
> They're obviously able to squeeze the motor in the front along with the steering mechanism, so technology can't be the reason.
> 
> ...


I would like to see an M3 with a motor for each wheel. Tesla does not have a limited slip differential to maximise energy efficiency. 4 motors allows the car to apply the torque appropriate to the grip and downforce - particularly in corners. It also means more energy recovery when braking. There are less gears in the transmission so less losses. We will surely see longer range and high performance EVs adopt the format. It would be great too see F1 cars go electric drivetrain while keeping the ICE to provide the power.


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## Guest (Jun 25, 2017)

Peter Egan said:


> I would like to see an M3 with a motor for each wheel. Tesla does not have a limited slip differential to maximise energy efficiency. 4 motors allows the car to apply the torque appropriate to the grip and downforce - particularly in corners. It also means more energy recovery when braking. There are less gears in the transmission so less losses. We will surely see longer range and high performance EVs adopt the format. It would be great too see F1 cars go electric drivetrain while keeping the ICE to provide the power.


Definite NO.
Tesla Model 3 is absolutely not a racing* vehicle. Neither is S nor X. Roadster is the closest though even here 4 is overkill. 3 at most with lots of compromises already.

4 motors does not mean more energy recovery when braking.
2 motors can apply appropriate amount of acceleration torque just using accelerometer, steering wheel position sensor, wheel rotation speed sensors and well designed software. All hardware AFAIK is already onboard pretty much all modern vehicles. Except software.
Maximum acceleration torque per wheel (especially inside wheels) can be calculated and appropriate amount of brake force can be applied to appropriate wheel appropriately. The faster the loop the better the results. It means that frictional brake can be applied even before inner wheel will slip. This is something even 4 motor vehicle will not do without appropriate software.

In any case it is track/rally vehicle topic. Tesla does not have a racing department. They do not waste resources on advertisement.

*that means taking corners at high G-loads with extremely high nominal power output/regen capability.


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## Winemaker01 (Dec 30, 2016)

Excellent answers thank you. I suspect that since most of my driving is bitumen and there is only one longish stretch of dirt/gravel that I do AWD Vs RWD will not be such an issue. My vineyard 4 WD ute, Americans call them a truck? has electronic stability control and I have pushed it in a few places to see how ESC handles the slip and found little difference between slip with 4WD or just RWD. So I guess I can look at the options that Tesla give us down under when Model 3 eventually makes it here. I found this article on AWD Vs 4WD etc quite illuminating: http://www.motoring.com.au/what-is-...nd-awd-7530/?gclid=CIKVxt_gp9QCFdoEKgodhhYFgw


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## Thomas Mikl (Jun 26, 2017)

As a physics guy I feel compelled to answer here a bit.
If you want to go in depth about a mathematical model of car traction and torque here is a good paper on the topic (however you should know mathematics and physics at least at basic university level):
http://imtuoradea.ro/auo.fmte/files-2012-v2/TRANSPORT/Preda Ion L1.pdf

For those not inclined to take the plunge into the math, I will tell you my interpretation of the whole thing (I have a masters degree, so I think my interpretation is OKish):
The whole thing about getting your car to move is about friction, torque and not slipping.
With modern drive train systems on a dry road RWD has a slight advantage to overcome the momentum holding you in place better IF there is enough downforce (weight if you stand still) applied to the rear wheels, which in most non EVs is not the case (motor in front), hence FWD gets the point. Same goes for rain and wet roads. This is also why many premium car makers with RWD try to put many components in the back of the car (some even transmition parts) to get more weight back there.
Now with a Tesla your weight distribution will be very rounded back to front and very low center of gravity. So basic "getting from standstill to insane" there would be no real difference in FWD or RWD, maybe slight advantage RWD due to momentum of push vs pull.

Now on snow or gravel the key factor is also not FWD or RWD but really weight distribution and force on the wheel. The better your anti-slip software, the better your tires and the better your downforce (weight), then you will get going better. So again for a Tesla I would actually again say RWD will be better (slightly) as you can fine tune anti-slip much better when pushing rather than pulling. The problem with most other RWD cars is, they just do not have enough weight in the back or do not have good enough software, so the car either stalls (Mercedes loves this) or the wheels break friction and slip (many others). Of course AWD will be better by the simple fact that you have 4 wheels trying to overcome the inertia and gripping the ground needed to move you. However I have seen people getting stuck in AWD also, if you stand on an ice plate so slippery nothing will hold, even AWD will not get you going.

Now lets get to cornering... FWD is actually much more problematic when cornering than RWD in most situations, but thanks to software and modern steering servo systems that problem has largely been solved. Now it is true that it is harder to get a FWD to slip/drift in a corner, however if you loose control, you are gone as backsteering is much worse. In a RWD especially on gravel or snow, it is much more likely that if you put your foot on the pedal that your rear might "go for it", however this is much more controlable and most non pro drivers will most likely never get into any such situation and again software will most likely stop you.
Now does AWD solve all this? No. Again yes you have 4 wheels that will do the whole push and pull and overcome traction etc. However it is totally possible to slide an AWD car as shown on any Ralley course and on ice you will most likely drift also with an AWD. The key again is control, you will get back into a control range much sooner.

So what does this all mean? (Again my interpretation, you may disagree  )
RWD for a Tesla is prolly in my interpretation of the math better overall than FWD.
AWD will always be better, however if you are a cautious driver and do not put your car into extremes and refrain from parking on an snow plate at -20 then you should be fine with RWD even in snow and gravel. If you want that extra safety net or live in mountains with loads of snow and gravel go for AWD.

Actually on a side note for physics buffs:
Porsche did a commercial with a Cayenne Turbo S pulling an empty A380 Airbus (weight about 380 tons).... now how is that possible?
Well if you take into account the physics of the wheels and the friction the Porsche needed to overcome, it actually did tow only 2.1 tons (the force of friction it had to overcome to roll the plane). Since the weight of the Porsche is more and it had good broad tires and with a gentle foot on the gas pedal this was easy  If you would put a 1.5 ton led bar into a Nissan Leaf with the right tires it could have towed that Airbus... so much for commercials and physics. Do never trust the physics applied by marketing departments....


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## RatThings (Oct 31, 2016)

Michael Russo said:


> Liz (it is Liz, isn't it? ), intriguing little video! Let me offer a couple of things:
> 
> 1. On the merits of AWD vs. RWD, including some references to FWD, scroll through this thread - lots of stuff already written!
> 2. Order Getting Ready for Model 3 from Evannex (http://evannex.com/) - Already a year or so old now yet still a great for anyone new to EVs!
> ...


I did test drive an S during a Telsa event at the Pfister hotel in downtown Milwaukee but it was city blocks. I half punched it twice to check acceleration but never went over 35 or 40 and couldn't take any corners/curves even at speed because of traffic. I can tell it's a great car but I still don't feel like I've _driven_ one yet.

You're a moderator, I don't know what that entails but if you can get word to those who can fix these things there is space downtown. I was hoping we would drive around the Summerfest parking area a mile south of the Pfister (by the lake, easy to see on Google Maps). There are big parking lots and connecting roads that aren't used unless somethings scheduled on the grounds (and there wasn't anything when Tesla was in town so I thought maybe that's were we'd drive).

fyi - the 50th Summerfest starts today, billed as the World's Largest Music Festival - 11 days of none stop music on 10 or so stages, enough stages to satisfy all. This link takes you right to the bands and from there you can find other info. https://summerfest.com/2017-lineup/ The food is a hit too, And yes, ALL those bands will play here in the next week and a half. There are people that come every year for a few days, And there are those that think they'll attend every day, all day - they don't fair well, Another fyi for the unfamiliar - unless you're looking for an excuse to explain drunk behavior including the violence and sex, have someone take the kids under 13, maybe even 15, home by dark. Most people are fine but when there's been drinking since lunch and the sun goes down, that 1 or 2% put on a show,

And thanks for the reminder (so much kinder than I would have gotten elsewhere). I didn't read the thread, should have and will. And I meant to get back sooner but had a couple-day life interruption. I have to get ready for work now but tonight...tonight I hope to catch up on Tesla and my man Elon.

And you know/figured out my name, that's cool. But do you know where the nickname I'm using comes from? What are Rat Things? (ask around before you google, I'm curious if anyone knows)


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## Michael Russo (Oct 15, 2016)

@RatThings , well it sounds like you do need another test drive then...! 

Not sure if I can help from this far away, yet I have always found the T≡SLA reps to very accommodating so I would try to see next time if you can take the car _out of the city_...
Hopefully our dear Model ≡ will also be available for test drives within the 2nd half of the year.

Interesting info share about the music festival; I can imagine that the driving home at night bit can be challenging from a safety perspective; one can truly hope that in the future the advent of autonomous drive may help on this front!

_Rat things_? Sorry I don't know... From the pic, maybe it has something to do with kids?


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## Peter Egan (Jun 6, 2017)

17.088 ^2 said:


> I've been trying to understand why Tesla is only offering the drivetrain in a All wheel or Rear wheel configuration, and not also (or instead) in a Front Wheel drive configuration. If anyone can provide me with some reasonable explanation, I'd certainly like to hear it.
> 
> They're obviously able to squeeze the motor in the front along with the steering mechanism, so technology can't be the reason.
> 
> ...


What I would like to see is AWD with All-wheel-steering - great for putting the car in tight places.


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## Thomas Mikl (Jun 26, 2017)

Peter Egan said:


> What I would like to see is AWD with All-wheel-steering - great for putting the car in tight places.


While I agree that this is a cool feature, it is very very problematic as seen in the Porsche or Renault models that have it currently (and some Hondas that had it).
While it is awesome in low speed situations where the wheels can go countersteer to get you a better turn angle, even above 10mph this already becomes problematic as steering will feel less natural and above 20mph is totally useless. So above a certain speed the wheels have to steer in parallel, which gives you good overtaking feel, but is oversteering the whole car when cornering tightly at higher speeds and make even the force needed to keep the car in track higher, meaning the car will get out of control sooner. Which is bad on gravel or snow.

So in reality my humble opinion is, that while it sounds cool all wheel steering has too many downfalls to make it really good unless you can implement a system like a Honda prototype, where a computer would steer the backwheels or even lock the back steering dependend on situations. This however was so expensive and problematic to handle, that it never saw the light of day.
I test drove the new Renault Espace with 4 wheel steering and it is very good for parking (which Model 3 will be able to do on its own anyways) it is really bad when going faster.


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## Badback (Apr 7, 2016)

I have a 4 wheel steer vehicle, if you can call it that:










At low speeds it is great, but above 10MPH it is impossible to steer in a straight line, very unstable. Fortunately, AWS can be disabled for highway travel, it will get up to 18MPH max.


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## Guest (Jun 30, 2017)

Thomas Mikl said:


> While I agree that this is a cool feature, it is very very problematic as seen in the Porsche or Renault models that have it currently (and some Hondas that had it).
> While it is awesome in low speed situations where the wheels can go countersteer to get you a better turn angle, even above 10mph this already becomes problematic as steering will feel less natural and above 20mph is totally useless. So above a certain speed the wheels have to steer in parallel, which gives you good overtaking feel, but is oversteering the whole car when cornering tightly at higher speeds and make even the force needed to keep the car in track higher, meaning the car will get out of control sooner. Which is bad on gravel or snow.


Maybe it is manufacturer specific problem then.
BMW offers that system and it works extremely well at low speed (tighter turns) and high speed (parallel turning).
And BMW's are born to be driven at 100mph.


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## JWardell (May 9, 2016)

Forget all of the physics and friction discussion. I have a difficult time making this explanation to non tech minded people all the time.

Instead, call up your local Tesla shop on a rainy day. Ask to test drive both a rear and dual drive S. Tell them you need to make the decision for your upcoming 3 order. I'm sure they will be thrilled to do so. Take both out on the same wet roads.

The AWD will start accelerating quicker, sure. But you should find it is no better at turning, braking, or being safe.
Seriously, you can answer this question now without waiting, and trusting your own judgement and butt-dyno.

My last three cars have been front, rear, and AWD respectively. I'm personally truly excited to going back to RWD. Especially on a snow day.


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## $ Trillion Musk (Nov 5, 2016)

JWardell said:


> I'm personally truly excited to going back to RWD. Especially on a snow day.


Curious... why is that so? I too am considering RWD although I do get snow where I live.


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## garsh (Apr 4, 2016)

Safe Daddy Driver said:


> Curious... why is that so? I too am considering RWD although I do get snow where I live.


Donuts!

I had a Mercury Grand Marquis as my commute vehicle back in college. Full-size, body-on-frame, rear-wheel-drive American (well, assembled in Canada IIRC) luxo-boat. The V8 didn't make much power, but it had no problems doing donuts in empty, snow-covered parking lots.


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## M3OC Rules (Nov 18, 2016)

Not sure if this has been mentioned but when I think of high horsepower FWD vs RWD I think of torque steer. There are many reasons why RWD is better for performance cars which have been stated but I've always thought that torque steer would prevent someone from making a FWD on any car over 300HP. Am I wrong?


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## Guest (Jul 1, 2017)

DC Rules said:


> I've always thought that torque steer would prevent someone from making a FWD on any car over 300HP. Am I wrong?


If manufacturer makes front halfshafts equal in lenght, that would minimize torque steer. 
Though RWD vehicle will always get more traction (straight line acceleration) due to squatting. 
As vehicle accelerates more force applies to rear wheel (and when decelerates, more to front, breaking).
In case of turning FWD performance is heavily compromised.

Yes, the less power vehicles has, the more appropriate is FWD. 300hp is definitely too much for FWD, Bolt...khmkhm.


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## Peter Egan (Jun 6, 2017)

Thomas Mikl said:


> While I agree that this is a cool feature, it is very very problematic as seen in the Porsche or Renault models that have it currently (and some Hondas that had it).
> While it is awesome in low speed situations where the wheels can go countersteer to get you a better turn angle, even above 10mph this already becomes problematic as steering will feel less natural and above 20mph is totally useless. So above a certain speed the wheels have to steer in parallel, which gives you good overtaking feel, but is oversteering the whole car when cornering tightly at higher speeds and make even the force needed to keep the car in track higher, meaning the car will get out of control sooner. Which is bad on gravel or snow.
> 
> So in reality my humble opinion is, that while it sounds cool all wheel steering has too many downfalls to make it really good unless you can implement a system like a Honda prototype, where a computer would steer the backwheels or even lock the back steering dependend on situations. This however was so expensive and problematic to handle, that it never saw the light of day.
> I test drove the new Renault Espace with 4 wheel steering and it is very good for parking (which Model 3 will be able to do on its own anyways) it is really bad when going faster.


It is on some models of the F-150 style trucks. Would not need to operate at over 10 mph to be quite worthwhile for parking u-turns in tights, etc.


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## materialpointmethod (Jul 1, 2017)

Pretty sure that FWD is mechanically more complex than RWD due to the drive shaft joints in the hubs that allows for a large change of angle between the wheels and the shafts for steering, and I believe this is the single most important reason that early cars had RWD with front wheel steering.

Of course, dynamics and handling have a lot to say too, but the primary reason that most other EVs are FWD is most likely because these models share production lines with FWD ICE, and these automakers are not inclined to give handling so much thought on their EV models anyway.

RWD EVs give you:

More frunk space
Rear motor located beneath rear seats, thus not taking up any real estate space
Simpler suspension due to joints
Simpler suspension due to much less torque steering
More steering traction available to front wheels
Even weight distribution compared to ICE
No possible savings by sharing a FWD suspension production line
Also, as stated by one of the Tesla engineers at the prototype unveiling: The Model 3 packs enough power to accelerate such that it makes no sense to have FWD alone because most of the traction goes to the rear wheels, and as Musk says: "we don't make slow cars".


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## Guest (Jul 3, 2017)

materialpointmethod said:


> Of course, dynamics and handling have a lot to say too, but the primary reason that most other EVs are FWD is most likely because these models share production lines with FWD ICE, and these automakers are not inclined to give handling so much thought on their EV models anyway.


Well that is not true.
Leaf and i3 are totally new platforms. They might share some bells and whistles but they are designed for EV platform.
Both are FWD.
Most likely the reason is the common knowledge of what to do with frunk. As all cars should have a at least some hood lenght,
something must go there. And therefore let's put some motor there.
And also I suspect most manufacturers are not smart enough to fit the whole drivetrain between rear wheels. Trunk space may
not be compromised at any cost. Tesla did well. Actually iMiEV did also well (though their motor is weak and small).

"More frunk space" - well you lose the same/around-the-same amount of trunk space. It is possible to add lots of storage room
below the false floor. Like Model S child seat compartment.

Most EV's have drivetrain in the front and more battery in the back (battery pack thickens at below the rear seats).

Overall, FWD vs RWD EV's have their own pros and cons. Depending on overall vehicle dimensions sometimes it is reasonable
to stick the drivetrain to the back, sometimes to the front. Though due to EV drivetrain simplicity we can expect slightly more
RWD EV's in the future than RWD ICE vehicles.


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## Thomas Mikl (Jun 26, 2017)

arnis said:


> Well that is not true.
> Leaf and i3 are totally new platforms. They might share some bells and whistles but they are designed for EV platform.
> Both are FWD.
> Most likely the reason is the common knowledge of what to do with frunk. As all cars should have a at least some hood lenght,
> ...


I am really quite sure that my BMW i3 is RWD, since it says so in the manual and the motor is under the back seats..... (of course I have the EV version without range extender...)


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## garsh (Apr 4, 2016)

arnis said:


> Most likely the reason is the common knowledge of what to do with frunk. As all cars should have a at least some hood lenght, something must go there. And therefore let's put some motor there.


The Leaf and Bolt are FWD and have the motor & electronics up front in the "engine bay" for ease of manufacturing.

The Bolt is built on the same assembly line as the Sonic. The Leaf is built on the same assembly line as the Altima and Maxima. The easiest way to handle different cars on the same line is to have them share a FWD architecture, and to have the assembly line workers install an "engine-equivalent" at the "install engine" station.


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## Guest (Jul 4, 2017)

Just that one thing is not a reason for FWD. 
Rear axle is mounted as a whole. No reason not to have drivetrain integrated into rear axle.

Well yea, i3 as RWD, loses cargo space in the back and gets pretty much nothing in the front. 
Though i3 had ReX in mind. Could be in the front as well.


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## garsh (Apr 4, 2016)

arnis said:


> Just that one thing is not a reason for FWD.


Of course it is.

The manufacturer planned small numbers of these vehicles. Giving them their own assembly line at such small volumes would greatly increase the cost, so they planned to share an assembly line. To help keep costs down, you put similar vehicles on the same lines - you don't mix RWD with FWD, cars with trucks, etc. There really is no great reason to make electric cars FWD, other than these manufacturing considerations.


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## M3OC Rules (Nov 18, 2016)

Does the Bolt have any torque steer?


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## Thomas Mikl (Jun 26, 2017)

arnis said:


> Just that one thing is not a reason for FWD.
> Rear axle is mounted as a whole. No reason not to have drivetrain integrated into rear axle.
> 
> Well yea, i3 as RWD, loses cargo space in the back and gets pretty much nothing in the front.
> Though i3 had ReX in mind. Could be in the front as well.


What cargo space? The i3 has none... if it would not have been subsidized to hell I would have never gotten one 
Oh wait yeah you can fold down the back seats and then get some cargo area.
Also making a car where you need to open the (for the size of the car) huge front doors to get the back doors open is driving me nuts.
Factor that in with huge range anxierty and you know why I still have a petrol car too.
The i3 is a plastic bag with an electric motor.
The only good thing is you can prolly smoke (where permitted) the pressed bio grass interior when you recycle it.

But that was offtopic. 
BMW actually tested FWD and RWD, since RWD was in most cases better than FWD, easier to produce (no strain on steering) and you had better turning radius (as with all RWDs) they opted for RWD. You can read that (at least on the german) website.


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## garsh (Apr 4, 2016)

DC Rules said:


> Does the Bolt have any torque steer?


I don't know about the Bolt, but the Leaf doesn't. Unless like me, you have aftermarket wheels with different offsets than OEM, thus changing the steering geometry slightly. That change introduced some amount of torque steer, which is mainly noticeable when acceleration hard or decelerating at highway speeds.


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## $ Trillion Musk (Nov 5, 2016)

Great info and tips from these KmanAuto Model S videos. The consensus is that Tesla traction control is superior to ICEV which makes RWD phenomenal on slippery roads. However, the difference between single & dual motor is like night & day.

RWD review:





AWD review:


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## Guest (Jul 4, 2017)

garsh said:


> I don't know about the Bolt, but the Leaf doesn't. Unless like me, you have aftermarket wheels with different offsets than OEM, thus changing the steering geometry slightly. That change introduced some amount of torque steer, which is mainly noticeable when acceleration hard or decelerating at highway speeds.


Leaf definitely has torque steer. Especially when doing anything else besides keeping the wheel straight.
Absolutely stock everything, except interior dome bulb.
It is less noticeable as power steering is very strong and it's easy to ignore the wheel that tries to do it's own thing.


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## Thomas Mikl (Jun 26, 2017)

According to Nissans website the Leaf does not have torque steering, but it has torque control. This means it slows down the motor so no wheel looses traction (traction control) but it does so for both wheels at the same time as there is only 1 motor.
I found no mention that it may do torque steering with breaks (which is inefficient anyways).


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## Guest (Jul 6, 2017)

Thomas Mikl said:


> According to Nissans website the Leaf does not have torque steering, but it has torque control. This means it slows down the motor so no wheel looses traction (traction control) but it does so for both wheels at the same time as there is only 1 motor.
> I found no mention that it may do torque steering with breaks (which is inefficient anyways).


Well, that took an interesting twist! 

Torque steering is something manufacturers are ashamed of. Not proud of. Therefore it is not a "feature". 




Torque control, which Leaf has, can be controlled with motor torque alone and also supplemented with brake pads to simulate limited slip differential in case of acceleration. Leaf, AFAIK, does not do the latter. And does the motor limitation extremely sluggishly (I'm comparing with German brands).

Torque control (weird name Nissan made up) with brakes should be ESP subsystem pretty much all modern vehicles have (US/Russia/cheapChina exception, as far as I see in crash compilation videos). Leaf has that (deceleration control) and it works more or less fine.


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## Twiglett (Feb 8, 2017)

garsh said:


> I don't know about the Bolt, but the Leaf doesn't. Unless like me, you have aftermarket wheels with different offsets than OEM, thus changing the steering geometry slightly. That change introduced some amount of torque steer, which is mainly noticeable when acceleration hard or decelerating at highway speeds.


My Leaf has oodles of torque steer. Accelerating hard out of a corner has the wheel fighting you all the way.
Several reviews of the Bolt say that it also torque steers as well.
Most people don't/won't notice because they treat it them like the econoboxes they are. Treat it like something that can handle and it fights you.


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## garsh (Apr 4, 2016)

Accelerating hard on a straightaway, my Leaf doesn't exhibit torque steer. It continues to track straight without steering input. Same with high regen on a straightaway.

With my "aftermarket" wheels, it pulls to one side slightly while accelerating, then pulls to the other side slightly during full regen. I have to countersteer slightly to keep it going straight.


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## JWardell (May 9, 2016)

Safe Daddy Driver said:


> Curious... why is that so? I too am considering RWD although I do get snow where I live.


It's just about feel. RWD feels more natural when you punch it for example. And in low-traction situations like snow, the front wheels can still steer while the rears are spinning. And yes, donuts too, although I don't think we'll be able to disable Tesla's traction control to do that part...


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## Guest (Jul 10, 2017)

JWardell said:


> And yes, donuts too, although I don't think we'll be able to disable Tesla's traction control to do that part...


Disable, no. Disconnect, yes. A switch for disconnect? Why not. 
ABS system compromised=no traction control


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## Sumiguchi (Jun 3, 2018)

17.088 said:


> Hmmmm...
> OK people, you've given me some food for thought.
> I guess, especially given all the examples from Norway, that I shouldn't worry too much about performance in the snow.
> 
> (Especially given how pathetically little of the white stuff we had this year... but hey, global warming is a myth, global warming is a myth, say it three times, maybe I'll believe it.)


I'm in Canada (prairies) with plenty of ice and snow and never owned an AWD vehicle (or winter tires for that matter) but have had both FWD and RWD cars int he past. FWD was a god send for ICE because of the engine weight. I used to load up my '79 mustang, (lx... crappiest mustang ever btw), with sandbags in the trunk to try to get traction.

Don't imagine it will be an issue at all with the battery weight and traction control...but time will tell! Bring on Winter!!! This heat is killing me!


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