# Solar City/Tesla Solar System is expensive!



## svusa11 (Oct 27, 2017)

Finally, I decided to go Solar. Honestly speaking to me it is more about economics than going Green. I started my research about 4 months back and being financially savvy ran quite a few models to understand true cost of ownership and if going solar is financially beneficial. I'm not big fan of lease or PPA so all offers I received were based system purchase. My break even point is about 6 years with tax incentives.

To my disappointment, Tesla/Solar City was very first company to bid on 10KW project and was most expensive. I also received offers from few other nationwide and/or NE companies.

Tesla Panasonic panels + centralized inverter was most expensive bid - $4.00/Watt (Before Tax Incentives) for technology that is not a proprietary or doesn't have a cool factor. Nearest nationwide competitor was about .40 cents less!! Needless to say I didn't pick Tesla but went with another solar company. I hope in future Tesla can come up with more aggressive pricing strategy to beat competition. You can't charge premium for more or less same product or service.

So, if you are thinking of going solar, at least get 4-5 quotes to see where market is trending. Your best price would be cash purchase (loan or home equity). Don't let sales guy trick you with monthly payment gimmick, ask for total cost of the system before tax incentives. At the end, I signed installation contact for $3.05/Watt for topline LG panels.

attached is graphical comparison of all different offers I received. Solar City/Tesla is P5 on the chart. All offers are before factoring local/state/federal tax incentives.


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## garsh (Apr 4, 2016)

The scale for your bar graph should start at zero. It's currently misleading at a glance.


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## Griff (Aug 23, 2017)

Can you please share the companies that you got other quotes from? I'm close to pulling the trigger with tesla for a fee reasons, but if I could save a bunch of money, I'd consider someone else. I'm located in NY.


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## Impatient (Sep 19, 2017)

I got a quote from Tesla/Solar City for a 10k system and their price was about $3.30/watt. I'm likely to go with a local company that's quoting around $2.50/watt. I'd love to give the $$$ to the mother ship, but I just can't bring myself to spend $8k more for an equivalent system.


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## svusa11 (Oct 27, 2017)

Griff said:


> Can you please share the companies that you got other quotes from? I'm close to pulling the trigger with tesla for a fee reasons, but if I could save a bunch of money, I'd consider someone else. I'm located in NY.


1. Tesla
2. Trinity 
3. SunRun
4. Momentum 
5. SolarMe
6. Vaha Energy
7. All Season Solar

PM me if you would like to know which company I finally decided to go with. They are not cheapest but emerging as a major competitor. Also, I picked LG over some of other cheaper products as I know LG is going to be around for next 25 years. Other chinese panel manufacturers would throw 25 year warranty but how likely it is for those manufacturers to be around to service warranty claims?? So pay little extra to pick reputable panel manufacture.

Also, I learned through this process, if you decided to go zero downpayment finance route (Eg. Sunnova loans) there is typically 15% mark-up in the price to recover cost. So you get best deal if you bring your own financing through home equity or cash.

Getting my panels installed in first week of Feb so really excited to go solar!

@Impatient assuming $3.30 is before tax incentive it is not a bad price. try to bring them closer to $3.10 if you have patients to negotiate


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## MelindaV (Apr 2, 2016)

svusa11 said:


> 1. Tesla
> 2. Trinity
> 3. SunRun
> 4. Momentum
> ...


but your LG panels (and anything else made outside the US) went up 30% today


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## Jarrod Skrehot (Dec 7, 2016)

Buy your own system at gogreensolar.com, install yourself for 1/2 the price and still get your 30% tax rebate. I did and i’m Not extremely handy, 6.12 kW system. It produced 10.6 MWh, about 1 MWh more than they estimated and 1,700 more kWh than I used, which will go to my upcoming Model 3!


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## svusa11 (Oct 27, 2017)

MelindaV said:


> but your LG panels (and anything else made outside the US) went up 30% today


Opps... there goes my contribution towards Making America Great Again!


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## svusa11 (Oct 27, 2017)

Alright.. step 2 of the process - Installation is now complete.

IMO - LG NeON2320W black panels looks decent. In a normal daylight appearance is more like black opaque glass. I think Tesla's Panasonic panels are of the same quality if not better. Other Chinese company would struggle to get you panels above 300W. You could certainly find cheaper blueish looking mono panels and reduce total cost of ownership but as a homeowner thats a choice you will have to make.

Attaching few sample photos if anyone is researching into Solar System - LG panels + IQ inverters. I really can't speak about other nationwide companies as only experience I have is with their sales team but based on price, benefits and review of companies I decided to get system installed by momentum solar and have no regrets. These guys are knowledgeable, professional and meticulous plan every minor details of the project. I had lot of technical questions about system design, preference and installation process - they patiently answered/addressed every single concern or request I had.. Thumbs up! 

_Attached Sample Installation Images: --










































_


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## Bokonon (Apr 13, 2017)

Received a call from a Tesla Energy rep last week asking me if I "had any questions about my reservation OR Tesla's residential solar products" and took the bait, knowing that the conversation would center around the latter. Our house will definitely go solar at some point, but the roof is due for replacement within the next 5 years, so we probably won't do anything before then. Nevertheless, I wanted to hear the pitch and get a sense for what our installation might look like, so I setup a video-call consultation that took place last Sunday.

On the video call, the rep walked me through the proposal, and the numbers came back slightly higher than @svusa11's quote: $38.7K for a 9.1 kW system before incentives, or about $4.25/watt. (Net cost with incentives was about $17K.) Going into the call, I expected Tesla's price tag to be on the higher end on the spectrum, but not that high, and I told the rep as much when he asked for my thoughts on pricing. (He did not sound surprised at my reaction and, naturally, pivoted to emphasizing the value of the entire package.)

My impression is that Tesla Energy's pricing strategy centers around bundling a premium product with a generous parts/labor warranty and production guarantee, and then hoping they'll come out ahead at the end. It seems roughly equivalent to buying a car from a traditional dealership along with a 5-year service plan, extended warranty, and detailing service. That said, I haven't shopped around enough to compare what the equivalent price for the same parts, warranties and guarantees would be from Tesla's competitors.

The other question that lingers in my mind is: if low-profile panels are going to run me $4.25/watt, then what's the price going to be for the solar roof? Granted, we're now talking about a roofing job combined with solar, as well as a system with (presumably) lower power output, so it's an apples-to-oranges comparison. But based on the price for panels alone, I'm thinking the whole job is easily going to run north of $50K before incentives, despite the Solar Roof calculator's estimate of ~$40K. I guess we'll have to wait and see on this one, since Solar Roof isn't even available here yet...


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## JWardell (May 9, 2016)

I really wish I could have solar by now, too, but I was hoping to wait a few years when production goes up and cost goes down. My roof is various ages but all overdue for replacement, but this week we have a new hole chewed in the roof by a raccoon, so I need to do something ASAP. Really wishing that solar roof was already shipping in quantity and low cost now.


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## Bokonon (Apr 13, 2017)

JWardell said:


> I really wish I could have solar by now, too, but I was hoping to wait a few years when production goes up and cost goes down. My roof is various ages but all overdue for replacement, but this week we have a new hole chewed in the roof by a raccoon, so I need to do something ASAP. Really wishing that solar roof was already shipping in quantity and low cost now.


Yikes! Those vicious little critters... Sounds like your roof's "various ages" are about to get a little more various. 

Yeah, hopefully production -- and competition -- will kick up a notch over the next couple of years... It seems like more and more companies are trying to bring their own photovoltaic roof tiles to market.

The other thing we have to keep an eye on from a net-cost perspective the 30% federal tax credit for new solar installations, which is currently scheduled to start phasing out in a few years: 26% in 2020, 22% in 2021, 10% (!) in 2022, and 10% for commercial systems only starting in 2023. The credit was last extended in December 2015, but conditions were a little more favorable back then...


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## svusa11 (Oct 27, 2017)

Bokonon said:


> Yikes! Those vicious little critters... Sounds like your roof's "various ages" are about to get a little more various.
> 
> Yeah, hopefully production -- and competition -- will kick up a notch over the next couple of years... It seems like more and more companies are trying to bring their own photovoltaic roof tiles to market.
> 
> The other thing we have to keep an eye on from a net-cost perspective the 30% federal tax credit for new solar installations, which is currently scheduled to start phasing out in a few years: 26% in 2020, 22% in 2021, 10% (!) in 2022, and 10% for commercial systems only starting in 2023. The credit was last extended in December 2015, but conditions were a little more favorable back then...


Yep.. without Fed Tax Credit and State SRECs, solar is money losing investment. Price has to drop substantially (like more than 50%) in order to make it favorable without any type of subsidies. Unfortunately, we are on reverse path with introduction of roof tile which is out of reach for most the people.


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## Drax (Jan 22, 2018)

Tesla definitely prices their premium systems as a premium product, but they will also try to price-match! I sent my sales rep a copy of a quote I received from a small, local company which was substantially less than Tesla’s initial offer and they were able to match it. We got our 10.2kW system (without powerwall) for $26,520, and couldn’t be happier with it. Based on current pricing from the utility, our current usage, estimated future usage, degredation, and loan interest, we’re still saving a close to $5000 over the 20 year loan term. If we include the tax credit in this, we end up “saving” ~$13K. It’s crazy.


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## JWardell (May 9, 2016)

Bokonon said:


> The other thing we have to keep an eye on from a net-cost perspective the 30% federal tax credit for new solar installations, which is currently scheduled to start phasing out in a few years: 26% in 2020, 22% in 2021, 10% (!) in 2022, and 10% for commercial systems only starting in 2023. The credit was last extended in December 2015, but conditions were a little more favorable back then...


So it sounds like 2019 is the year I should target for a solar install? (2018 is off the table because of a certain expensive car)


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## Bokonon (Apr 13, 2017)

JWardell said:


> So it sounds like 2019 is the year I should target for a solar install? (2018 is off the table because of a certain expensive car)


2019 would be ideal, 2020 not so bad, 2021 okay but not great, 2022 ugh why did I wait?!

Yeah, 2018 is definitely a no for us too. Hopefully 2019, but something tells me it will be 2020.

Good to hear per @Drax that it is actually possible to negotiate with Tesla Energy -- that thought didn't even occur to me, given that you can't negotiate the price of their cars. Hopefully that will help make the numbers work.


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## MelindaV (Apr 2, 2016)

as another data point... earlier this year I talked to Tesla and got a couple different options but the one that was designed following a survey was for (18) 325w Tesla panels (from the new GF2!) for 5.85kw at $19,598. 
My roof is squarely west/east with misc vents scattered all around, but my sales guy assured me the west/east would not be an issue and panels can span over most roof vents. Tesla also guarantees the energy generation, so it seemed the lack of a south elevation would not be horrible - if the panels don't produce what Tesla's designer estimates they would reimburse for the difference annually. 
Following the roof survey and designers layout, I found out the vents WOULD be a problem, and the only layouts they could do would not be rectangular, but panels all over the place with vents between for a very messy looking layout unless I wanted to go down to 14 or fewer panels (which I already decided 18 was the fewest that made sense financially). If it were not for my sales guy saying the panels could span over the top of these, I would NOT have paid the $500 for the survey, which kinda left me with a pretty negative feel about the whole thing.

so between all of that and not having enough tax liability to cover both the car and solar to go toward my 2018 taxes, I just wasn't comfortable carrying over part of the solar tax credit to 2019. So instead may look at it again next year. I still would like to check if panels can be installed on an awning style frame on the south elevation instead.


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## Bokonon (Apr 13, 2017)

MelindaV said:


> Following the roof survey and designers layout, I found out the vents WOULD be a problem, and the only layouts they could do would not be rectangular, but panels all over the place with vents between for a very messy looking layout unless I wanted to go down to 14 or fewer panels (which I already decided 18 was the fewest that made sense financially). If it were not for my sales guy saying the panels could span over the top of these, I would NOT have paid the $500 for the survey, which kinda left me with a pretty negative feel about the whole thing.


Wow, thanks for mentioning that... I did not know that there was a charge for the site survey. My sales rep did not mention anything about that. He told me if I signed onto the initial proposal, they would do the site survey, and only then would they provide the final, binding contract, which I could theoretically not sign and thus halt the process... but I guess that doesn't preclude there being a $500 survey charge if you do not proceed beyond that step. :grimacing:



> so between all of that and not having enough tax liability to cover both the car and solar to go toward my 2018 taxes, I just wasn't comfortable carrying over part of the solar tax credit to 2019. So instead may look at it again next year. I still would like to check if panels can be installed on an awning style frame on the south elevation instead.


That sounds promising. How many panels could you fit that way?

FWIW, there's a solar-paneled house in our neighborhood with an east-west roof, and unlike all the other east-west solar homes in our neighborhood, they've angled the north end of the panels up to face south. I've always thought that they'd done this to squeeze a little extra efficiency out of the panels, but now you've made me wonder whether they're actually trying to work around irregularities in their roof that prevented the panels from laying flat.

If your vents are flat enough, could there be a way to mount the panels such that they're all propped up on one end, so that they both avoid running into / blocking the vents while still maintaining a generally orderly appearance? (I recognize that I am suggesting this as someone with no design aesthetic to someone who excels in that domain, so raised eyebrows and/or dismissive laughter are acceptable if they are warranted. )

Alternatively: cozy up to the neighborhood association and mount a large, arcing solar canopy over your roof, kind of like the huge rain canopy at PDX.


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## MelindaV (Apr 2, 2016)

Bokonon said:


> I did not know that there was a charge for the site survey.


I don't know if it was because I would be paying cash (or paying part in cash and financing the rest myself) or if the $500 hits everyone.



Bokonon said:


> That sounds promising. How many panels could you fit that way?


up to 14 panels if across the upstairs and downstairs south windows. so that plus a few on the roof would be great. When I first began talking to the Tesla sales guy, I mentioned this and he quickly said they couldn't do that. And I've not checked further into why (maybe he just meant they could not engineer the frame...)



Bokonon said:


> Alternatively: cozy up to the neighborhood association and mount a large, arcing solar canopy over your roof, kind of like the huge rain canopy at PDX.


creative


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## Grashelm (Aug 4, 2017)

Drax said:


> Tesla definitely prices their premium systems as a premium product, but they will also try to price-match! I sent my sales rep a copy of a quote I received from a small, local company which was substantially less than Tesla's initial offer and they were able to match it. We got our 10.2kW system (without powerwall) for $26,520, and couldn't be happier with it. Based on current pricing from the utility, our current usage, estimated future usage, degredation, and loan interest, we're still saving a close to $5000 over the 20 year loan term. If we include the tax credit in this, we end up "saving" ~$13K. It's crazy.


Whereabouts in Florida are you located?


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## Drax (Jan 22, 2018)

Grashelm said:


> Whereabouts in Florida are you located?


We're just northeast of Orlando and are serviced by Duke.


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## Blizzard (Sep 10, 2018)

Drax said:


> Tesla definitely prices their premium systems as a premium product, but they will also try to price-match! I sent my sales rep a copy of a quote I received from a small, local company which was substantially less than Tesla's initial offer and they were able to match it. We got our 10.2kW system (without powerwall) for $26,520, and couldn't be happier with it. Based on current pricing from the utility, our current usage, estimated future usage, degredation, and loan interest, we're still saving a close to $5000 over the 20 year loan term. If we include the tax credit in this, we end up "saving" ~$13K. It's crazy.


Did $26,520 include 30% fed incentive?


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## Drax (Jan 22, 2018)

That’s the actual full price we paid before calculating in the incentive. =)


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## NJturtlePower (Dec 19, 2017)

I found the Energy Sage website very helpful for getting quotes and comparison of products in your area.

Decided not to move forward at this time, but it was interesting comparing the options and incentives.

https://www.energysage.com/


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## LUXMAN (Apr 4, 2016)

Saw this thread. thought I would update ya'll with some info as I am doing solar with Tesla.
1. Their prices are coming down from what was notes above. I was quoted $3.20/watt for the 305 watt panels and $3.35 for the 315 watt black panels that they are now making at the GF2 in Buffalo.
2. I am installing Critter Guards (basically a mess hidden behind the skirts) since I live next to a forest and don't want any squirrels or Racoons building a nest under there.
3. @MelindaV , my Energy Advisor told me that $500 would be refunded if we don't go forward. maybe I need to read the contact closer, LOL. But they didn't refund that to you?
4. I got a quote from another local provider over the phone. Basically asked him all the pertinent questions to compare. They wanted $3.50/watt for their premium black SunPower panels (350 watts per). they don't put skirting up, and that is a must if I am gonna get my HOA to but off on the placement on the front of the house. So their cost was more right off. 
5. I had a couple other companies call me. One lady couldn't answer any technical questions, so a "vice-president" was gonna call me. Say what? He called like 3 days later. . 
6. Another company was calling from Austin (300 miles away) and it was a construction company call center. Not a good vibe.

So I decided to go with Tesla as I figure the 25 year (referred myself) warranty has a better chance of being honored.
It will be a long payback period, but I ain't getting any younger and this system should provide 100% of my needs for now. But no Powerwall as that doesn't make $ sense in any way right now.
Should be a 14.5kW, 46 panel system if I can get the HOA to sign off as the covenants specifically state none on the front of the house (which is silly since some homes have their south sides on the back facing major roads in the community). So I have to invoke a Texas law that says they have to let me if it will produce 10 % than where they want it.
If for some reason that doesn't work, I am gonna put up 49 of the cheaper panels on the East/West side and I don't give a darn what color they are, and they have to let me do it.


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## MelindaV (Apr 2, 2016)

LUXMAN said:


> 3. @MelindaV , my Energy Advisor told me that $500 would be refunded if we don't go forward. maybe I need to read the contact closer, LOL. But they didn't refund that to you?


they did fully refund mine - but took quite a bit of pestering my adviser to get it processed (who incidentally, was helping deliver cars the day I picked mine up!)

I wish my roof was south facing (and had less crap randomly scattered around both sides)


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## CoastalCruiser (Sep 29, 2017)

svusa11, are those micro inverters on the back of your cool looking panels? One per panel?

Also, was looking to see if your system has batteries. Didn't see a mention.


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## Bokonon (Apr 13, 2017)

Finally, here we go...

Tesla slashes price of solar systems by up to 20%, cites vertical integration


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## LUXMAN (Apr 4, 2016)

Bokonon said:


> Finally, here we go...
> 
> Tesla slashes price of solar systems by up to 20%, cites vertical integration


Well, I have a system in the works. So I called last night. Not quite a 20% or even a 10% cut. They have just cut the price of the actual panels. Not the install, inverters or anything else. So while it may be a big cut in the Panel price, it turned out to be only a 6.5% price cut overall. Since the price went down, so did my Tax Credit. So after all is said and done, my proposed 49 panel system with 2 powerwalls, the price dropped by $2,056 or about 4.5%. So not allot but I'll take it. It should shave another 15 months my payback time


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## Jaywlker (Oct 20, 2018)

Jarrod Skrehot said:


> Buy your own system at gogreensolar.com, install yourself for 1/2 the price and still get your 30% tax rebate. I did and i'm Not extremely handy, 6.12 kW system. It produced 10.6 MWh, about 1 MWh more than they estimated and 1,700 more kWh than I used, which will go to my upcoming Model 3!


I'm beginning my install: 10kw system with 30 360 watt panels. Any advice?


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## vadim.s (Nov 7, 2018)

Tesla gave me an estimate of $28k (before federal/local incentives) for 9.6 kW system. 25yr warranty. 
It seems to average to $2.88 / Watt. That seems like a pretty good price, right? At least based on earlier posts.

Also, signed up for energysage.com to see what competition has to offer.


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## Frully (Aug 30, 2018)

I got my first quote a little while back...

















38 300 watt panels, 11.6kW system - ~$27k CAD system before incentives, or $2.30CAD /watt -- US$1.69/watt before incentives.


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## LUXMAN (Apr 4, 2016)

vadim.s said:


> Tesla gave me an estimate of $28k (before federal/local incentives) for 9.6 kW system. 25yr warranty.
> It seems to average to $2.88 / Watt. That seems like a pretty good price, right? At least based on earlier posts.
> 
> Also, signed up for energysage.com to see what competition has to offer.


That is a great price I think. Mine came out to $2.99 a watt after the recent price drop. It was much cheaper than others were quoting per watt. That said, I didn't have them come do full estimates as I wanted everything to work together and Tesla seemed to have the integration I wanted. Plus I wanted powerwalls later (but ended up doing it now!). But I felt better about it know that I wasn't overpaying here in Texas.
If you haven't seen it in the other thread, you can see my system that they finished installing on Thursday. Hoping to turn it on next week.
https://teslaownersonline.com/threads/adding-tesla-solar-in-texas.9385/post-188255


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## LUXMAN (Apr 4, 2016)

Frully said:


> I got my first quote a little while back...
> View attachment 19561
> 
> 
> ...


That is cheap! I only got to $1.88/watt after Rebates and Tax Credits here in the US.
Are you planning on doing it?


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## Frully (Aug 30, 2018)

LUXMAN said:


> That is cheap! I only got to $1.88/watt after Rebates and Tax Credits here in the US.
> Are you planning on doing it?


I REALLY want to pull the trigger. Unfortunately, Suddenly 20% of my income is going towards a fancy car payment...so it may have to wait. I don't have any more room in the HELOC until we deal with some other renovations in the second property....
My big fear is in Alberta we are likely to see a provincial government change in the near future...and if they do change we are likely losing the tax credit. Even without credit the system is 'affordable' but having a 30% extra discount disappear hits me right in the FOMO gland.


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## rebels23 (Nov 24, 2018)

Am considering this too but looking at the reviews on line, it looks really scary (Tesla/Solar City). Is anyone worried about the 'transition' that Tesla may still be going through with the purchase of Solar City?


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## LUXMAN (Apr 4, 2016)

rebels23 said:


> Am considering this too but looking at the reviews on line, it looks really scary (Tesla/Solar City). Is anyone worried about the 'transition' that Tesla may still be going through with the purchase of Solar City?


I just did this and it turned out awesome. 
They had some paperwork delays between different departments, but we were able to get everything in before my Utility's rebates ran out for the year (turns out I got the last one!). 
Plus they found an opening to get me in before the End of the year so that I qualified for said rebate as it had to be installed on or before Dec 31st.
So from contract signing on 4 Oct to install on 19/20 Dec, it went quick. 
We made 2 changed along the way to plan/contract (increase in # of and type of panels, then added 2 PowerWalls) 
They coordinated the Permits and Inspections. 
I took care of the HOA of course, but they supplied me with everything I wanted.
The crews we efficient and professional. They had better ideas of where to place things than what I was thinking and it looks amazing.
https://teslaownersonline.com/threads/adding-tesla-solar-in-texas.9385/post-188255


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## rebels23 (Nov 24, 2018)

@LUXMAN, that is awesome stuff!

I started the proposal process.......I notice that Tesla makes you 'Review and Sign the Contract' on line, but they appear to request you to do so without providing too many details at all in the proposal. Information in the proposal is very light (terms, material, itemizations, if under producing, Tesla will pay you back difference, etc.). It almost feels like a leap of faith, unless I am missing something in the process?

- Proposal Summary
- *Review & Sign Contract*
-Create Online Account
- Roof Survey
- System Design
- Building Permit
- Installation
- System Inspection
- Utility Inspection
- Turn it On


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## LUXMAN (Apr 4, 2016)

rebels23 said:


> @LUXMAN, that is awesome stuff!
> 
> I started the proposal process.......I notice that Tesla makes you 'Review and Sign the Contract' on line, but they appear to request you to do so without providing too many details at all in the proposal. Information in the proposal is very light (terms, material, itemizations, if under producing, Tesla will pay you back difference, etc.). It almost feels like a leap of faith, unless I am missing something in the process?
> 
> ...


My contract is 16 pages. Covering all those things. 
After they come out and do the Roof Survey, you will get online with them while on the phone. You will see the sales guy and he has a satellite of your roof with the panels on it as the engineers have designed it. If you want to make changes to the design, they will even bring the engineer on and they can do that while you watch.
Details like wiring diagrams, panel type and specs, inverters, mounting system powerwall placement and specs are all in the plans that you get next and approve. 
This has the nitty gritty stuff.
Once that is done, they can get things scheduled and moving


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## rebels23 (Nov 24, 2018)

Thanks for that LUXMAN. I am alway leery of putting my signature on something, especially with stated dollar values with not much information behind it. This puts me more at ease. Do you know if you have much of a say in regards to materials (i.e. a string inverter versus a micro inverter?). Probably not much discussion needed on panels as Tesla provides Panasonic panels from the GIGA factory. I can negotiate with them on number of panels needed 

My potential install will be a little more complicated as I and due for a new roof. If I can factor in roof cost into Federal Tax Credit, that would be great!


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## LUXMAN (Apr 4, 2016)

rebels23 said:


> Do you know if you have much of a say in regards to materials (i.e. a string inverter versus a micro inverter?). Probably not much discussion needed on panels as Tesla provides Panasonic panels from the GIGA factory. I can negotiate with them on number of panels needed
> If I can factor in roof cost into Federal Tax Credit, that would be great!


I don't think there is much say in regards to the inverters. They will use what you need. I don't have any shade on my roof, so they went with the String inverters. I am not sure if they do micro inverters, but I recall asking them about them and they said I didn't need them. I got the feeling they didn't like/do them. But I would ask if you have a shaded roof at times.

They are currently offering 2 panels (at least to me).
The Hanwha Panels (S. Korea). They are black with lines in them. 305 watt panels. My price was $2.99 a watt
The Panasonic ones made at GF2 are ALL Black and 315 watts. But they carry a 20¢ premium per watt. 
I was gonna go with those for looks, but once the HOA didn't allow them on the front (south) face of the house, I switched to the Hanwha panels and added 3 more. It actually raised the capacity of the system for a lower cost. Still warrantied for 25 years with the referral code.
But they will make what ever size system you want.

Unfortunately, roof work is not a Federal Tax Credit item. This text is from the IRS instructions for Form 5695...

*Qualified solar electric property costs. *Qualified solar electric property costs are costs for property that uses solar energy to generate electricity for use in your home located in the United States. No costs relating to a solar panel or other property installed as a roof (or portion thereof) will fail to qualify solely because the property constitutes a structural component of the structure on which it is installed. The home doesn't have to be your main home.

Now if you interpret that one way you could say that it is covered. But I think of it as they are saying if the actual solar panel is a structural component, then it qualifies. I also apply the test of "can I deduct this a Credit item if I just did the roof?", the answer would be no. But of course ask them what they think, and if it is a make or break item, consult a tax professional, which I am not. I am a semi-professional race car driver and amateur tax planner


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## rebels23 (Nov 24, 2018)

Thanks LUXMAN, that is even more insightful. I assumed Tesla was pushing the Panasonic panels for all installs. I'll let the experts guide me on what is the best setup for my needs during the design session.

- I received a quote from another Solar installer and I believe it came out to about $2.99 a watt for a 6.6 Kw system. They would be using Hanwha Q-CELL 315 panels with Enphase IQ6 Micro Inverters. Approximately 21 panels total.
- Tesla on the other hand came out to $3.35 a watt for a 9.25Kw system. I don't have details yet on material but they indicated it would be Panasonic panels when I asked (pricing is consistent with the premium per watt you indicated above). Approximately 29-32 panels.
- I am a little confused why the two system sizes varied by so much. They both worked off the same utility bill
- Both indicated that I could factor in the roof into the Federal tax Credit


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## JWardell (May 9, 2016)

When you folks quote the price per watt is that just for the panels or the price of install? Are you saying a 5kW install would cost 15 grand?
I would really like to put in some solar but not sure if its worth it if I move in ~5 years.


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## LUXMAN (Apr 4, 2016)

rebels23 said:


> Thanks LUXMAN, that is even more insightful. I assumed Tesla was pushing the Panasonic panels for all installs. I'll let the experts guide me on what is the best setup for my needs during the design session.
> 
> - I received a quote from another Solar installer and I believe it came out to about $2.99 a watt for a 6.6 Kw system. They would be using Hanwha Q-CELL 315 panels with Enphase IQ6 Micro Inverters. Approximately 21 panels total.
> - Tesla on the other hand came out to $3.35 a watt for a 9.25Kw system. I don't have details yet on material but they indicated it would be Panasonic panels when I asked (pricing is consistent with the premium per watt you indicated above). Approximately 29-32 panels.
> ...


- Interesting. The ones I got are Hanwha Q-Cells but rated at 305 watts. see below. 
- I made an error above. The premium on the Panasonic panels are 15¢ a watt. But it looks like the price you were quoted was based on the old pricing before the price cut in November. When was your Tesla quote?
Originally mine was $3.35 per watt (3.20 +15). Then $3.20 when I switched to Hanwha, then $2.99 after the price cut. If it was before the price cut, I would call them back.
- I guess it depends on what their goal was, 70% or 100% or what. Both the estimates should have a estimated yearly output in the quote so you can compare that to your usage. You can see mine below. Originally we were at 99.9% but since we had to move them from the front for the HOA, it dropped, hence the reason I switched panels and increased the # of panels. Now the first company may have been trying to minimize your cost with any Utility credits as well. For example, my utility provided a rebate of $450 per kw, up to 10. So the max rebate was $4500 for a 10kw system. If I would have stopped there, then the system would have been like 68% of usage but my cost would have been lowest. 
- Well if they say you can include a roof in that Tax Credit at the same time then that would be something to jump on.


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## LUXMAN (Apr 4, 2016)

JWardell said:


> When you folks quote the price per watt is that just for the panels or the price of install? Are you saying a 5kW install would cost 15 grand?
> I would really like to put in some solar but not sure if its worth it if I move in ~5 years.


The price per watt is the installed price with _EVERYTHING. _The panels, inverters, conduit, skirting, permitting, etc.
So a 5kw system would be $14,950. Then minus any utility rebates offered, then you take the 30% Tax Credit off that total. So if you had none, the price would be $10465 after the Tax Credit. so 5 years would be hard on the payback time. Now some people think that could add to the value to your home for resale and you can justify the price some more. IDK, you need to realize that some people wont want that added to the price, but if your home is compelling on other features and you are looking at more high end buyers, it could be something to look at on cost.
For us, as of now, we are planning on staying here, so I hope this pays for itself eventually and that the batteries last much longer than the warranty period. I think they will but there are other things inside there besides batteries, so I will be interested to see what service would be like after 10 years for a Powerwall inverter , but the batteries are not a consideration for me on payback.


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## Bigriver (Jan 26, 2018)

I'll chime in with a few thoughts on Solar. We've had our 11.97 kW system active for about 6 months near Pittsburgh, PA.

My production vs consumption plan looks very different from @LUXMAN who us in Texas. (See attachment.) His production and consumption almost balance out every month. Mine is more seasonal and will always overproduce in the summer and underproduce in the winter. The net metering arrangement with the utility is a huge factor in whether solar can work, at least for our situation that we sized for solar to take care of all our needs. (Actually sized at 1.3 to account for car charging since the consumption baseline was pre-Tesla.) 
I had not fully visualized how much production would vary each day before we got the system. Overcast days still produce some, but sunny days are where it's at. Attaching a screen shot of dismal December.
We went with the all black panels. I wouldn't trade their sleek design for anything.


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## JWardell (May 9, 2016)

LUXMAN said:


> The price per watt is the installed price with _EVERYTHING. _The panels, inverters, conduit, skirting, permitting, etc.
> So a 5kw system would be $14,950. Then minus any utility rebates offered, then you take the 30% Tax Credit off that total. So if you had none, the price would be $10465 after the Tax Credit. so 5 years would be hard on the payback time. Now some people think that could add to the value to your home for resale and you can justify the price some more. IDK, you need to realize that some people wont want that added to the price, but if your home is compelling on other features and you are looking at more high end buyers, it could be something to look at on cost.
> For us, as of now, we are planning on staying here, so I hope this pays for itself eventually and that the batteries last much longer than the warranty period. I think they will but there are other things inside there besides batteries, so I will be interested to see what service would be like after 10 years for a Powerwall inverter , but the batteries are not a consideration for me on payback.


Thanks, wow than that is very reasonable and I think would pay back very quickly. Maybe not there, but we are up to 25 cents a kWh here and it seems to continue to go up 3-5 cents each year lately


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## LUXMAN (Apr 4, 2016)

Bigriver said:


> I'll chime in with a few thoughts on Solar. We've had our 11.97 kW system active for about 6 months near Pittsburgh, PA.
> 
> My production vs consumption plan looks very different from @LUXMAN who us in Texas. (See attachment.) His production and consumption almost balance out every month. Mine is more seasonal and will always overproduce in the summer and underproduce in the winter. The net metering arrangement with the utility is a huge factor in whether solar can work, at least for our situation that we sized for solar to take care of all our needs. (Actually sized at 1.3 to account for car charging since the consumption baseline was pre-Tesla.)
> I had not fully visualized how much production would vary each day before we got the system. Overcast days still produce some, but sunny days are where it's at. Attaching a screen shot of dismal December.
> ...


1. You are right. Net Metering is important. @JWardell Some utilities actually pa you at the end of the month if you overproduce. Some give full rate, but many are going to wholesale rates. But we got it even worse. We are in a Co-op. these were established out in the boonies in the 20s and 30s. They have a monopoly and hence no competition. They have great low rates, but the net meter policy sucks. If I over produce at the end of every month, they just keep it. If I under produce, I have to pay full retail rate for those KWs. I think it is stealing if they keep my power without paying, hence another reason for the PWs. 
2. Mine has been only on since Dec 27th, but I hear ya about bad weather days. When it is sunny, even now, I have been off grid, but these past few days I made almost nothing. Now the next 10 days are supposed to be great, so I hope to stay off the grid for awhile. 
3. That is a nice looking system you have! Love the symmetric look. If I didn't have the stacks in the way, I would have made mine into a pyramid design.


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## LUXMAN (Apr 4, 2016)

JWardell said:


> Thanks, wow than that is very reasonable and I think would pay back very quickly. Maybe not there, but we are up to 25 cents a kWh here and it seems to continue to go up 3-5 cents each year lately


You are RIPE for solar in that case. Depends on how long you wanna stay in your home and any utility rebates to see if it works for you


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## rebels23 (Nov 24, 2018)

@JWardell

I calculated the price per watt against the total system install cost. The total system cost I use is the cost before any Federal or State Tax Credits. Tesla quoted me $30,988 for a 9.25 KW system ($3.35 per Watt). Your electricity usage will go up due to your purchase of new EV so if not factored in already, your pay back period may be even shorter.








@LUXMAN

You may be right about the old pricing. I received my quote from Tesla on November 20th, 2018. I will try and get a new quote.
The Tesla proposal was for a 100% offset. The other installer proposed a 6.6 KW system based off of my annual usage of 6965 kwh and is estimating an annual production of 7637 kwh. It looks like a 100% off set, but somehow I feel like they are under sizing the system.
I was considering the Power Walls also for storage (why not since I can apply Federal Tax Credit on it!) but the Tesla advisor said I didn't need it. There is a current proposal my utility is working (PSEG Long Island UTILITY 2.0 PLAN) on that will actually pay you to tap into your storage during peak periods. I will most likely wait to see how this all pans out before making an investment into the Power Walls (but it is so damn cool!)










@Bigriver

Your chart is definitely closer to mine. Your install looks sweet!
I do worry about changes to net metering. I had heard that I would be grand-fathered into whatever net metering terms were in place upon completion of my Solar install? Otherwise I would be at the mercy of whatever rules the utility puts in place go forward. Still not completely clear on this though.
@LUXMAN is right about net metering here. For my utility here, if we have a credit balance at the end of the year, they will pay me out. But they will pay out at a wholesale prices. Something like $.08 a KW. I usually pay $.21-$.22KW for electricity. Seems like robbery


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## 96s46p (Jul 5, 2018)

@rebels23 0.72 kwh/w yearly seems quite low. You should definitely check pvwatts estimate. https://pvwatts.nrel.gov. You don't want to overproduce just to sell at wholesale, it will just extend the break even time of the equipment.


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## LUXMAN (Apr 4, 2016)

rebels23 said:


> @JWardell
> 
> I calculated the price per watt against the total system install cost. The total system cost I use is the cost before any Federal or State Tax Credits. Tesla quoted me $30,988 for a 9.25 KW system ($3.35 per Watt). Your electricity usage will go up due to your purchase of new EV so if not factored in already, your pay back period may be even shorter.
> View attachment 20107
> ...


1. My updated contract was on 11/16. I called the next day after I found out about the price drop. I was transferred to another department that was handling the contract adjustments. But it went very fast. I was able to do it over the phone without any hassle. Maybe the price drop took a couple days to filter down the system to when they made your quote.
2. It looks like your roof has a low pitch so it should make some good energy. But does that pick indicate you are facing Northwest? or the side with the most panels is?
3. At PW install, I signed a thing where the Utility can contact me in the future about buying energy that I store in the powerwall during peak periods. My thought in that will probably be a no unless the rate was HIGH. Since they screw me on a monthly net meter basis, not sure that would really help ME one and two, if it is a peak period, there may be power problems, so maybe I wanna have that available to me in case of an outage.

Net Meter.
Our Net meter policy is in the by laws as a coop, so it was told to me that it takes work to change that. Yeah right. They have 607 customers out of 250,000 with solar! So that could easily be changed if they wanted. But the policy is perfectly in their favor here, why would they change it.
As for you though, I have heard that many companies do Grandfather you in. would love to see that in writing tho. 
I agree it is stealing. because you have no choice but to sell it back.
So the powerwall would come in handy here. I have found so far that we use most of the powerwall at night and in the morning since most panels face west. So when it sunny we are only pushing a few kWs back. Plus you then have a backup. I think they are a great thing for that purpose even if you only do one. they will make a sub panel and you can just use it for essentials during an outage. 
But if your on the fence about the PW, it may take time to get it and the tax credit reduces after 2019. It is 30% for installs this year, after that it starts to taper and will go away. I think it drops to 26% in 2020


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## rebels23 (Nov 24, 2018)

@96s46p - Thanks. They design the system for 100% off set. So anything I credit have left at year end would be just icing on the cake (even at wholesale price)?

@LUXMAN - My roof does have a low pitch. Now that you mention it, Tesla put the most panels on the North West side. The roof with the least panels would be the best position as that is South.


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## 96s46p (Jul 5, 2018)

No it wouldn't be icing on the cake because you paid for it (the extra panels). Seems very shady (no pun intended) they would recommend a 9.3kw system on a NW roof vs a 6.6kw on a SE roof.


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## LUXMAN (Apr 4, 2016)

rebels23 said:


> @96s46p - Thanks. They design the system for 100% off set. So anything I credit have left at year end would be just icing on the cake (even at wholesale price)?
> 
> @LUXMAN - My roof does have a low pitch. Now that you mention it, Tesla put the most panels on the North West side. The roof with the least panels would be the best position as that is South.


I don't think paying wholesale would be worth it but with a correctly designed system, it will help a little in the low use months as shown in your diagram. But that production curve looks weird to me, even as you are at a higher Latitude. @96s46p , I don't think Tesla's intent to do anything shady here. They may have a reason for putting it on the NW vs SE side, but I am not sure what. I see a skylight in that picture but that should have stopped them. @rebels23 , I would say if you are really interested in doing this system, I would call them and ask why they did that, even if you go with the other company as it will provide you more info. Now that said, the initial placement of the panels is done with the salesman on the phone, not the engineer. Did he say why he did that? Maybe then they can also provide you a price based on the last price reduction as well


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## rebels23 (Nov 24, 2018)

@96s46p -I see what you are saying now. I asked my advisor today and he couldn't really explain why it is a 9.25KW system. Seems like he just punches some parameters in and the system comes up with it. I will just wait until the design session.

@LUXMAN 
- I asked my advisor today on the NW side vs South. He acknowledged that is strange and usually it tries to take advantage of the south facing side. He said not to worry, just wait until the design session. The sky light shouldn't stop them as it didn't stop other installer's proposed designs. I also asked about the price cut in the panels and he was adamant that the system generated price at the time he did it already included the lower cost. Still not convinced, but a this point I'll move forward as I have no binding contract yet.
- I E-signed whatever they had online to proceed (via Docu-share). I noticed the document still had so many references to Solar City.

I also signed up for quotes on EnergySage.


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## TheHairyOne (Nov 28, 2018)

FYI Solar City price matched my LA solar quote, beat it and gave me more panels. Also My 2x powerwalls were free after 30% fed rebate and sgip rebate. Oh and my loan was setup to match my average previous electric bill, which was $375. So nothing extra out of pocket for me every month.


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## Angrew (Apr 16, 2018)

Frully said:


> I got my first quote a little while back...
> 
> 38 300 watt panels, 11.6kW system - ~$27k CAD system before incentives, or $2.30CAD /watt -- US$1.69/watt before incentives.


I am also in Calgary, and wondering if I should do something. Who did you get a quote from?


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## Frully (Aug 30, 2018)

Angrew said:


> I am also in Calgary, and wondering if I should do something. Who did you get a quote from?


Mine was through KCP energy. Very friendly folks, not pushy at all, and I only gave them some bills for context and my address so they could calculate the insolation estimate.


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## Fishn4life (Jul 5, 2018)

IMO, Solar City was a horrible buy for Tesla. The fact that Tesla is using Panasonic Panels and a variety of inverters (Solar Edge, Enphase, Sunnyboy, etc..) means the only Tesla product you are potentially getting is the Powerwall battery storage. I design solar systems and see this common complaint on a regular basis. If you are looking at solar, please know that Tesla does not make the panels or inverters. This would be like me dropping a Ford motor in my M3 and still calling it a Tesla. 

Prior to Panasonic partnering with Tesla, the Panasonic panels wouldn't have ranked in my top 10. IMO, they have stepped up their warranty and efficiency, however if you look at the actual cells they are using in their panels, there is nothing to brag about. IMO, SunPower and LG are the best quality panels you can go with. If given the option, go with microinverters. They are more efficient and will allow you to easily add to the system down the road. Some companies will try to sell you on the old DC systems (string inverter with optimizers) and may even tell you that you need DC for battery use. This may be true for some of the older generation batteries but the new generation batteries will have their own DC/AC conversion (Powerwall 2 & Sonnen). I personally like the Enphase micros. Another time where the DC is needed is for a ground mount. This may save a significant amount of cost in wiring (unless it's a short distance from main panel, then should not make a bid difference) and may be required for calculating electrical loss with distance.

Shop around, get a few quotes, and remember solar is a bit of a deep rabbit hole. It is a really cool technology but unfortunately there are a lot of scammers out there (but also a lot of good companies). Take your time and do your research.


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## LUXMAN (Apr 4, 2016)

Fishn4life said:


> IMO, Solar City was a horrible buy for Tesla. The fact that Tesla is using Panasonic Panels and a variety of inverters (Solar Edge, Enphase, Sunnyboy, etc..) means the only Tesla product you are potentially getting is the Powerwall battery storage. I design solar systems and see this common complaint on a regular basis. If you are looking at solar, please know that Tesla does not make the panels or inverters. This would be like me dropping a Ford motor in my M3 and still calling it a Tesla.
> 
> Prior to Panasonic partnering with Tesla, the Panasonic panels wouldn't have ranked in my top 10. IMO, they have stepped up their warranty and efficiency, however if you look at the actual cells they are using in their panels, there is nothing to brag about. IMO, SunPower and LG are the best quality panels you can go with. If given the option, go with microinverters. They are more efficient and will allow you to easily add to the system down the road. Some companies will try to sell you on the old DC systems (string inverter with optimizers) and may even tell you that you need DC for battery use. This may be true for some of the older generation batteries but the new generation batteries will have their own DC/AC conversion (Powerwall 2 & Sonnen). I personally like the Enphase micros. Another time where the DC is needed is for a ground mount. This may save a significant amount of cost in wiring (unless it's a short distance from main panel, then should not make a bid difference) and may be required for calculating electrical loss with distance.
> 
> Shop around, get a few quotes, and remember solar is a bit of a deep rabbit hole. It is a really cool technology but unfortunately there are a lot of scammers out there (but also a lot of good companies). Take your time and do your research.


Sure there may be "better" or "more efficient" panels, but by how much and at what cost? 
So my Hanwha panels produce 305w each, but the system is priced per watt installed. So if the Sunpower makes 325 or 350 watts per panel, what is the difference other than price per watt? When I got a price for those, they were much more per watt installed. So unless you have a limited roof space, they aren't gonna make much more power and the payback will be harder. 
Tesla maybe using Panasonic Panels (made in GF2) and Hanwha Panels, but they warranty all the items for 25 years and that includes the inverters, something the other installers here would not do.


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## Fishn4life (Jul 5, 2018)

LUXMAN said:


> Sure there may be "better" or "more efficient" panels, but by how much and at what cost?
> So my Hanwha panels produce 305w each, but the system is priced per watt installed. So if the Sunpower makes 325 or 350 watts per panel, what is the difference other than price per watt? When I got a price for those, they were much more per watt installed. So unless you have a limited roof space, they aren't gonna make much more power and the payback will be harder.
> Tesla maybe using Panasonic Panels (made in GF2) and Hanwha Panels, but they warranty all the items for 25 years and that includes the inverters, something the other installers here would not do.


I understand your line of thinking however a couple points I'd like to make. Yes, SunPower is more expensive. I don't think anyone will argue with you on that, however, when you look at the quality of the cell (all copper backing) and how it performs against micro stress fractures and how the cells are connected to each other, it's easy to see the future longevity outlast a lot of the other panels out there.

LG is not too much more expensive than Panasonic and far better quality IMO. I've had the opportunity to dissect these panels and there is a difference in quality. This is a pretty general statement, but the average consumer should look to pay approximately $2.90 - $3.10 / watt for the Panasonic panels (330 watt) and approximately $3.10 - $3.30 / watt for the LG panels (360 watt). This pricing should include Enphase microinverters and is the "installed" pricing. I'm in California so pricing may be different throughout the states. There are many other pricing factors that go along with solar such as type of roof (clay and concrete tile can be more expensive than composite), # of roof surfaces, main electrical panel work, etc.

I'm glad to see a lot of panel makers have stepped up their warranties to the "25 year standard." As consumers, I feel we weigh heavily on the written warranty. I just hope that in 25 years, most of these companies are still around to back their warranty. Tesla could easily part ways with the Panasonic partnership. When you buy "Tesla Solar" you are relying on the Panasonic warranty and the inverter warranty. I don't want to come off as anti-Panasonic, I just believe there are more reliable companies out there with the same or better product (SunPower, LG, Hyundai) to name a few. Again, just my opinion...


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## LUXMAN (Apr 4, 2016)

Fishn4life said:


> I understand your line of thinking however a couple points I'd like to make. Yes, SunPower is more expensive. I don't think anyone will argue with you on that, however, when you look at the quality of the cell (all copper backing) and how it performs against micro stress fractures and how the cells are connected to each other, it's easy to see the future longevity outlast a lot of the other panels out there.
> 
> LG is not too much more expensive than Panasonic and far better quality IMO. I've had the opportunity to dissect these panels and there is a difference in quality. This is a pretty general statement, but the average consumer should look to pay approximately $2.90 - $3.10 / watt for the Panasonic panels (330 watt) and approximately $3.10 - $3.30 / watt for the LG panels (360 watt). This pricing should include Enphase microinverters and is the "installed" pricing. I'm in California so pricing may be different throughout the states. There are many other pricing factors that go along with solar such as type of roof (clay and concrete tile can be more expensive than composite), # of roof surfaces, main electrical panel work, etc.
> 
> I'm glad to see a lot of panel makers have stepped up their warranties to the "25 year standard." As consumers, I feel we weigh heavily on the written warranty. I just hope that in 25 years, most of these companies are still around to back their warranty. Tesla could easily part ways with the Panasonic partnership. When you buy "Tesla Solar" you are relying on the Panasonic warranty and the inverter warranty. I don't want to come off as anti-Panasonic, I just believe there are more reliable companies out there with the same or better product (SunPower, LG, Hyundai) to name a few. Again, just my opinion...


I get what you are saying. But with the Tesla warranty (granted if they are around), it doesn't matter who made the panel or inverter. If the component is bad during the warranty period, it will be replaced with something similar. Specifically my rep said "every component would be warrantied for 25 years regardless of the manufacturer warranty"






Now their standard Warranty is 20 years and the referral program ends 31 Jan...


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## JWardell (May 9, 2016)

Well I'm biting the bullet on Solar, I took the last opportunity to refer myself last week, and was surprised when I spoke with them that they could have someone out to visit the next day on Saturday.
Needless to say the savings is obvious with my high electric rates, in fact I didn't realize the utility pays for every kWh I generate even if I am using it all.
Looks like a 10-yr loan will only run me about $50-100 extra per month.
Also, I didn't realize but the referral doesn't qualify until after they visit, submit a proposal, and the proposal is signed...I would have lost it had I waited another week!
Now I need to schedule a tech visit for the real measurements etc.


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## LUXMAN (Apr 4, 2016)

JWardell said:


> Well I'm biting the bullet on Solar, I took the last opportunity to refer myself last week, and was surprised when I spoke with them that they could have someone out to visit the next day on Saturday.
> Needless to say the savings is obvious with my high electric rates, in fact I didn't realize the utility pays for every kWh I generate even if I am using it all.
> Looks like a 10-yr loan will only run me about $50-100 extra per month.
> Also, I didn't realize but the referral doesn't qualify until after they visit, submit a proposal, and the proposal is signed...I would have lost it had I waited another week!
> Now I need to schedule a tech visit for the real measurements etc.


That is awesome! I hope you have a great experience.
Yup, for the referral, it is based on the contract signing date. They say you will get an email about receiving it 4-8 weeks after install. I am at 6 weeks and haven't heard yet.

"in fact I didn't realize the utility pays for every kWh I generate even if I am using it all" -- So how does that work? Why would they pay you for solar energy you make and use? 
Net Meter is usually paid as what you over-produce


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## LUXMAN (Apr 4, 2016)

Yesterday we made our first MegaWatt of power!


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## JWardell (May 9, 2016)

LUXMAN said:


> "in fact I didn't realize the utility pays for every kWh I generate even if I am using it all" -- So how does that work? Why would they pay you for solar energy you make and use?
> Net Meter is usually paid as what you over-produce


One of the perks in this state I guess. Of course they only pay 10 cents, while they charge 26 cents for usage. But was explained to me as a way to sponsor/support solar installs


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## LUXMAN (Apr 4, 2016)

JWardell said:


> One of the perks in this state I guess. Of course they only pay 10 cents, while they charge 26 cents for usage. But was explained to me as a way to sponsor/support solar installs


Interesting...

So if you say Produce 500kw, use it all plus another 100kw, You would pay $26 for the 100, but get a $50 credit for the 500 you made and used, so that your bill would be -$24, or would they just zero it out?

If that is the way they are doing it, they are losing money on you. And I am getting the shaft here in TX


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## Frully (Aug 30, 2018)

The way I've seen it done in some areas is there are 2 separate meters - one inbound and one outbound...so your 'usage' is still all drawn from the 'in' meter, while the generation is all measured on the 'out' meter, not one meter that adds or subtracts for you.


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## mswlogo (Oct 8, 2018)

JWardell said:


> One of the perks in this state I guess. Of course they only pay 10 cents, while they charge 26 cents for usage. But was explained to me as a way to sponsor/support solar installs


Sorry, I'm jumping in late on this discussion and your numbers caught my eye.

I'm in Boston Area (west of 495) as well. On National Grid. No off peak. 0.23 kWh. I don't get anything back on Solar over generation except a 100% credit in kWh. I have about 3 mega watts credit in 2 years. My Model 3 should chew through it in no time  But I do get SREC. Hoping to break even in 6-7 years.

Just curious where your 10 cents and 26 cents is coming from? You did say "this state". If your saying I'm only getting .10 cents of the .23 in kWh then maybe I would invest in a PoweWall.


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## mswlogo (Oct 8, 2018)

JWardell said:


> One of the perks in this state I guess. Of course they only pay 10 cents, while they charge 26 cents for usage. But was explained to me as a way to sponsor/support solar installs


I did a bit more digging. Turns out I'm getting $.20 kWh credit when I push onto the grid and it's now about $.25 kWh to pull off the grid. So it's an 80% efficient "battery" ( with no vampire drain ). Well I guess the $5.50 service charge / month is vampire drain.

If it was only $.10 kWh credit it would never pay to have Solar in MA (unless you have a PW). The last month I over produced was August and that's the last bill that shows that credit rate. I can't find the current published rate to save my sole. Did the credit rate (over production rate) change? Maybe different by town?


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## LUXMAN (Apr 4, 2016)

Frully said:


> The way I've seen it done in some areas is there are 2 separate meters - one inbound and one outbound...so your 'usage' is still all drawn from the 'in' meter, while the generation is all measured on the 'out' meter, not one meter that adds or subtracts for you.


This is how my they made mine just before the Solar meter was installed.
The left one is the original Grid Meter, it was replaced with a newer Smart meter that runs both ways. It records TOTAL (Net), DELIVERED (from Grid) and RECEIVED (what I push back). The bill is based on the TOTAL.
The solar meter only tracks Solar Production and is not monitored by the power company but it is a running total of lifetime production.

So it is just one meter that is monitored by the power company here.


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## JWardell (May 9, 2016)

LUXMAN said:


> Interesting...
> 
> So if you say Produce 500kw, use it all plus another 100kw, You would pay $26 for the 100, but get a $50 credit for the 500 you made and used, so that your bill would be -$24, or would they just zero it out?
> 
> If that is the way they are doing it, they are losing money on you. And I am getting the shaft here in TX


Yes, as it was explained to me. But I expect my solar install will only cover 100% of my house plus maybe 20-40% of my car, so I will probably never quite be negative. Especially after adding a Model Y. In addition, the bills accumulate, so while I might have a negative balance after the summer months, I will certainly catch up in the winter.



mswlogo said:


> Sorry, I'm jumping in late on this discussion and your numbers caught my eye.
> 
> I'm in Boston Area (west of 495) as well. On National Grid. No off peak. 0.23 kWh. I don't get anything back on Solar over generation except a 100% credit in kWh. I have about 3 mega watts credit in 2 years. My Model 3 should chew through it in no time  But I do get SREC. Hoping to break even in 6-7 years.
> 
> Just curious where your 10 cents and 26 cents is coming from? You did say "this state". If your saying I'm only getting .10 cents of the .23 in kWh then maybe I would invest in a PoweWall.


That's helpful. The 10 cents is what the Tesla rep told me. Thrilled if it is more but I've heard the same from others. 26 cents is what I know I pay on my bill, and that's gone up twice recently and I'm sure will continue to. I know rates are better in western ma and with other utilities.


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## LUXMAN (Apr 4, 2016)

Well. 
https://electrek.co/2019/04/30/tesl...er-watt-system/amp/?__twitter_impression=true

Boom. Price drop. 
So now my system would cost me $5k less at $2.65 a watt vs $2.99. But of course I would have to get 16k vs 14.945 since they are now doing it in 4kW chunks. Assuming no special orders. 
So then I would get a bigger system for $2,200 less than I paid


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## JWardell (May 9, 2016)

LUXMAN said:


> Well.
> https://electrek.co/2019/04/30/tesl...er-watt-system/amp/?__twitter_impression=true
> 
> Boom. Price drop.
> ...


I'm watching closely. Just got my 4th redesign yesterday. Going to wait till May 1 to ask if pricing adjustment is taken into account.
At this point I have had SIX different people at Tesla Solar, all of which have regularly not responded to my question or addressed the several oversights in their designs. This had dragged on since February. At his point, submitting your own photos of roofs and panels WOULD be a lot more efficient.


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## Bigriver (Jan 26, 2018)

JWardell said:


> I'm watching closely. Just got my 4th redesign yesterday. Going to wait till May 1 to ask if pricing adjustment is taken into account.
> At this point I have had SIX different people at Tesla Solar, all of which have regularly not responded to my question or addressed the several oversights in their designs. This had dragged on since February. At his point, submitting your own photos of roofs and panels WOULD be a lot more efficient.


Unfortunately this was my experience too. Constantly handed off to someone else, but not really handed off well. Very pregnant pauses through my 15 month experience. After tons and tons of this, finally got last piece (powerwalls) installed 2 weeks ago. 4 different contacts in the last 2 months. Now in limbo about being able to turn them on. I don't have any idea how they can make it this confusing. But I have to say installers of panels and powerwalls were all phenomenal.


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## Bigriver (Jan 26, 2018)

LUXMAN said:


> Well.
> https://electrek.co/2019/04/30/tesl...er-watt-system/amp/?__twitter_impression=true
> 
> Boom. Price drop.
> ...


As it always is with Tesla. I'd go mad if I focused on all the price drops after I purchased. The only thing that worked in my favor was powerwalls. Those prices have gone up since I locked in my price.


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## NJturtlePower (Dec 19, 2017)

JWardell said:


> I'm watching closely. Just got my 4th redesign yesterday. Going to wait till May 1 to ask if pricing adjustment is taken into account.
> At this point I have had SIX different people at Tesla Solar, all of which have regularly not responded to my question or addressed the several oversights in their designs. This had dragged on since February. At his point, submitting your own photos of roofs and panels WOULD be a lot more efficient.


Basically my experience as well... vented my growing frustrations on a Tesla Solar Owners FB group and then had a call from a Tesla customer relations specialist the next day which I think almost annoyed me more.

Tesla needs to stalk solar FB groups to improve their sales and communications?

I screenshot her info and posted it to the same group in case anyone else wanted to go above the head of their current sales contact, but for me I had seen enough.

They were also not competitive in pricing as of last month here in NJ, and even with the latest price drop I wouldn't trust their long term service or follow through on a system investment of 25+ years.

Also interesting, is not only did they originally quote me Hanwha panels over their own SC/Panasonic's, their latest SC330 is actually a lower Tesla spec version of the Panasonic N330 everyone else is selling.

I'm now close to signing a deal with a local contractor (Green Power Energy) who are ridiculously responsive to all my questions and changes, have top reviews all around even in the solar forums (https://www.solarpaneltalk.com/) as well as our local FB groups.


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## JWardell (May 9, 2016)

I just got a Robo text from Tesla that solar pricing has been adjusted in my area and to reply. 
I always reply to texts from this number and never get any human responses or callbacks. I sent an email with the person who has been emailing me the last few weeks, but he has also not responded to my last three emails.
Reduced prices or not, Tesla solar gets an F with communication.


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## TheHairyOne (Nov 28, 2018)

Have them show you how to detatch from city power but enable the solar system to charge the batteries. They'll tell you not to do this, but you dont want the batteries to drain to true zero while waiting for turn on approval. Just an hour or two every Saturday should be plenty. They lose about 1% per day without charge due to water pumps and controllers.

My approval took months. They had to manually load,a firmware to let them charge and ended up replacing them a few months later. Maybe newer fw avoids this issue but happend to me a year ago.


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## SalisburySam (Jun 6, 2018)

For info, I configured a Tesla Solar Roof for my home. I live in a historic district and home was built in 1905-1906 with tile roof. I have to maintain something that at least looks like the original tile roof so I thought the Tesla versions MIGHT make it through the historic approvals. Solar panels would definitely not be approved. So I configured to get a rough pricing idea even though the product isn’t available in my area yet. Total just north of $187k. Um...no.


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## NJturtlePower (Dec 19, 2017)

SalisburySam said:


> Total just north of $187k. Um...no.


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## LUXMAN (Apr 4, 2016)

JWardell said:


> I'm watching closely. Just got my 4th redesign yesterday. Going to wait till May 1 to ask if pricing adjustment is taken into account.
> At this point I have had SIX different people at Tesla Solar, all of which have regularly not responded to my question or addressed the several oversights in their designs. This had dragged on since February. At his point, submitting your own photos of roofs and panels WOULD be a lot more efficient.


I've been "off grid" for a few days so I havent been to the forum.
First off, I looked closer at the cost reduction from Tesla. It went from $2.99/watt that I paid in December after the November Price cut to now $2.65/watt here in Texas. So that is a, 11.5% price cut. So if I had done it now it would be $5081 less. But I would have had to go with a bigger system at 16kw so the difference would be about $2300 less. But I would have lost $1000 in rebates from the Utility this year vs last. Plus I got $750 for my self referral plus the extra 5 years to make it a bumper to bumper 25 year warrenty on everything,

I am sorry to hear you guys are having some communication problems. I have found my rep to be very responsive. I know he works Tues -> Sat., so I went with that for my comms.
So I had a hairbrained idea yesterday about adding a 3rd PW to take advantage of the 30% tax credit this year before it reduces. So I called him yesterday.
Some things I learned...
1. No relief on the $1000 PW install even though I have 2 already and they said it would be quick and easy to add a third.  Guess I should have done it earlier. So I am gonna pass for now unless they have some kind of sale.
2. PowerWalls went up in price and are now $6900 each plus tax and install

3. There will be some growing pains with the new sales model.
They know they will have problems with some utilities as some do not allow more than X amount of production over the last years usage so they anticipate some push back there if someone has to go up on size from say 12 to 16 and they only need 13.

4. The Warranties are structured differently now. They no longer do the whole system Bumper to Bumper like in my contract. This is what I got from the conversation, but of course Verify for yourself....
The system is now warrentied for 20 years for workmanship. Beyond that, components are only warrantied per the manufacturers warranty. So the panels may be 20 years from Hanwha or Panasonic but the inverter may only be 12 years from Delta for example. Now Tesla will take care of all warranty work. They will do the labor and deal with manufacturer but no longer will they be warrantying other companies products past the manufacturers warranty period. So if you have an inverter go out after the warrenty, they will replace it but you will pay.

So of course there is a trade off with the price decrease beyond just taking your own pics of the panels and having to pic a set system size. That said, I have been very impressed with the system and their customer service. I know ya'll aren't getting the quick response you are expecting. Not sure how to answer that. That said , if any of you are having an issue and cant get comes via your rep or otherwise, I have a contact that may be able to take care of it. DM me and I can get you that info.


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## LUXMAN (Apr 4, 2016)

SalisburySam said:


> For info, I configured a Tesla Solar Roof for my home. I live in a historic district and home was built in 1905-1906 with tile roof. I have to maintain something that at least looks like the original tile roof so I thought the Tesla versions MIGHT make it through the historic approvals. Solar panels would definitely not be approved. So I configured to get a rough pricing idea even though the product isn't available in my area yet. Total just north of $187k. Um...no.


That must be a huge roof!
The solar roof is pricy. They wanted like $95k for mine ($66.5k after 30% credit) vs 44k and 28k for mine. So that was not an option!


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## SalisburySam (Jun 6, 2018)

LUXMAN said:


> That must be a huge roof!
> The solar roof is pricy. They wanted like $95k for mine ($66.5k after 30% credit) vs 44k and 28k for mine. So that was not an option!





LUXMAN said:


> That must be a huge roof!
> The solar roof is pricy. They wanted like $95k for mine ($66.5k after 30% credit) vs 44k and 28k for mine. So that was not an option!


Huge is relative...it's a 4700 sq ft home on two levels so about a 2350 sq ft footprint making the roof about 3000 sq ft accounting for peaks, or as a roofer would quote it: 300 "squares" of 10 sq ft each. Unfortunately, it is a very complex roof with 31 different surfaces (gables, different levels, wrap-around front porch, etc.), so a roofers nightmare with the accompanying valleys and ridges. Since Tesla's estimator just uses apparent sq ft from Google Maps (I think), I'm actually expecting the price to be higher once an estimator comes on site and sees the potential labor involved. Ah, the joys of a 116-year-old home!

By the way, that price included 3 Powerwalls and associated components.

And yes, any roof solution will be expensive but Tesla solar roofing does make one pause...and think wistfully about the evening's olive water beverage (vodka martini).


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## ENERGYHOG (Oct 28, 2019)

I got a quote from Tesla this week and I am not sure If its a good buy. I haven't quoted any other companies and not sure if i have enough time to get the 30 percent tax credit. I was hoping someone could give me their opinion. It averages to around 2.58/watt.


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## CoastalCruiser (Sep 29, 2017)

You may want to wait until V3 of the tiles ship. It appears there is a significant price drop. Saw this across two articles. Here is the one I can find.

https://cleantechnica.com/2019/10/2...ersion-3-of-teslas-new-solarglass-roof-tiles/


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## CoastalCruiser (Sep 29, 2017)

Here is the other one:

https://electrek.co/2019/10/27/tesla-solar-roof-v3-quote-price-decrease/


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## ENERGYHOG (Oct 28, 2019)

CoastalCruiser said:


> You may want to wait until V3 of the tiles ship. It appears there is a significant price drop. Saw this across two articles. Here is the one I can find.
> 
> https://cleantechnica.com/2019/10/2...ersion-3-of-teslas-new-solarglass-roof-tiles/


I am not looking for glass tiles i have a new roof roughly 1 year old so it would not make much sense to install the tiles. Also if you see my roof layout its very intricate.


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## TrevP (Oct 20, 2015)

I just put in a $100 reservation for Tesla solar in Canada. Strangely the solar roof doesn't require any deposit. They didn't give any timeline only that they would call me when it's available.


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## ymilord (Mar 31, 2017)

Something interesting happened yesterday with Telsa Energy. 

Initial we wanted to go with Tesla, but their response time 10 months ago was glacial. In the end, they gave us a redonkulous high quote that was 40% higher than the other 4 quotes with Powerwalls (The Tesla quote did not include Powerwalls.) We picked an installer from the gang of 4 and they did the install in about 3 weeks. (As in from the time we agreed on a system to handing them money, Them doing a detailed site survey- to fully installed and getting the PTO 3 days later from Ameren.) 

Tesla Energy called yesterday and said they were ready to start the install. And was wanting to know when they could come by to do the site survey and decide an install window? I told them that we picked another installer and the array has been installed many months ago. Then the person said that I would not get my 99$ USD deposit back. For one, I went to the local showroom and started there and never paid anything. Secondly, I told them the prices I got from the other installers and what they quoted initially. The person then said, 'Oh. Okay. Thanks. Have a good evening' and hung up.

I really hope they can get their bookkeeping in order. I want them to succeed. But stuff like that does not help.


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## SalisburySam (Jun 6, 2018)

As a result of the new V3 announcement, I went to configure a solar roof for our home again. The previous price without incentives of $187k is now $98k, both including 3 Powerwalls. Pretty attractive I have to say. Unfortunately there is no mention of various roofing components as I’d have to have the Tuscan tiles for our 1905 home that includes historic requirements. Signed up...will see what happens.


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## ENERGYHOG (Oct 28, 2019)

I received a quote for roughly 30k for 11.34 kw system. Unfortunately my roof is too new haha so it doesn't make sense to get the v3 tiles. I called last week and they have me scheduled for Nov 23 Install super fast. I am just not sure if 2.58/ kw is a good price.


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## JWardell (May 9, 2016)

Well something is definitely changing, or at least they are trying to.
I'm at 10 months now since signing up for (regular) solar, and tweeted this last week when Elon asked

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1187089092724613120
Two days later I got a call from my solar advisor, not to give me any progress (not that I ever really do) but to tell me corporate saw this and is looking into it and several levels of management are now monitoring my project!
Nothing can be done until electrical work is done, and that hasn't been scheduled yet, but we could have been at this point 6 months ago.
Maybe the extra pull will turn things around quickly once we finally get a green light. I'm not holding my breath anymore.


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