# NY has interesting rules about powerwall installations



## jlquinn (Aug 19, 2018)

Hi all. I've purchased a solar + powerwall system that is going through the permitting process now. I just wanted to share an interesting experience with regards to powerwall.

Tesla sent a rep to survey my property for the installation. The rep told me that fitting powerwalls in a garage is now a tricky proposition in NY. Several constraints now have to be satisfied:

* Each powerwall must be 3 feet from any window or door
* Powerwalls can not be stacked
* If installed near where a car parks, they have to install tall concrete protection pillers between the powerwall and the parking area
* Powerwalls must be in the garage or outdoors

The result of this is that it is much harder for them to figure out where to install the powerwalls. I am getting 2, so it wasn't horrendous. If I had bought 3, it would be much more difficult to fit them in my garage.
Even if your panel is in the basement on the opposite side of the house from the garage, the panels would have to be in the garage. Or outside, where cold weather would impact their performance.

In theory these rules are for safety. But to me it sounds like utilities managed to get the ear of rulesmakers and make life more difficult. For example, I can't imagine a slow collision between car and powerwall would be super dangerous. And I certainly don't want to risk having a concrete piller where my car might scrape it.

Has anyone else encountered odd installation rules?


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## JasonF (Oct 26, 2018)

It sounds like Powerwalls have been classified as "generators" in NY. Those are the same rules most states have for installing whole-house generators to keep fumes from invading the home and killing everyone inside. The "protection pillars" too - they're not supposed to keep the Powerwalls from being crashed into specifically, it's supposed to prevent a slow crash from causing a fuel spill or gas leak (it's the same rule as having a gas line or fuel tank close to a road) with a generator.

Either the building code committee in NY is really dumb, or someone wrote up those instructions by accident.


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## Bigriver (Jan 26, 2018)

jlquinn said:


> Even if your panel is in the basement on the opposite side of the house from the garage, the panels would have to be in the garage. Or outside, where cold weather would impact their performance.


This is awful! Mine are in the basement and I wouldn't want them anywhere else. Tesla wanted to put them in the garage simply because they are crazy heavy and that would have required the least installation effort. But I did not want another half a foot depth taken up along my only wall with some free space. I certainly wouldn't want them outside either.

I wonder how they handle garages that are integral with a basement.... is it that they want it on the other side of a firewall?


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## Needsdecaf (Dec 27, 2018)

Bigriver said:


> This is awful! Mine are in the basement and I wouldn't want them anywhere else. Tesla wanted to put them in the garage simply because they are crazy heavy and that would have required the least installation effort. But I did not want another half a foot depth taken up along my only wall with some free space. I certainly wouldn't want them outside either.
> 
> I wonder how they handle garages that are integral with a basement.... is it that they want it on the other side of a firewall?


Correct. If your garage is part of your basement, by current code, you have to have a fire rated assembly between your garage and your house. Of course if your home is older, all bets are off. There are a gazillion raised ranches in the tri-state area that would fall into this category.

Building code rarely makes sense when trying to apply to older structures.


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## Needsdecaf (Dec 27, 2018)

jlquinn said:


> Hi all. I've purchased a solar + powerwall system that is going through the permitting process now. I just wanted to share an interesting experience with regards to powerwall.
> 
> Tesla sent a rep to survey my property for the installation. The rep told me that fitting powerwalls in a garage is now a tricky proposition in NY. Several constraints now have to be satisfied:
> 
> ...


I would say:

1. Never trust the rep of an installer for 100% of the truth. For anything, much less Tesla. If you want concrete answers, consult your local building official. 
2. If the rep is correct, I would still apply for your electrical permit where you want them. If rejected, request a meeting with the building / code reviewer. 
3. Most building codes follow NEC (National Electrical Code) with possibly some state or local provisions thrown in. NY State is a mass of small jurisdictions permitting wise. So chances are there's no "Tricky proposition on NY" that your installer told you. I could be wrong here, there could be something in NY state that governs this.


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## jlquinn (Aug 19, 2018)

@Needsdecaf thanks. I'm in a small town, so might be able to get a reasonable answer.


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## Needsdecaf (Dec 27, 2018)

I did some more digging and it looks like their may be some code in NFPA (national fire prevention) and possibly the NEC related specifically to battery storage. But I don't have the code books. Let me see if I can find out more.


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## JasonF (Oct 26, 2018)

Needsdecaf said:


> I did some more digging and it looks like their may be some code in NFPA (national fire prevention) and possibly the NEC related specifically to battery storage. But I don't have the code books. Let me see if I can find out more.


See if you can find something very specific, because the hazards are much different from one battery type to the other. Lithium batteries can self-ignite, but put one in a fire resistant plastic case and all you'll get is a lot of smoke. Lead acid batteries will actually produce hydrogen, and if you put enough of them in a small space, you can have a pretty serious explosion.


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## Needsdecaf (Dec 27, 2018)

JasonF said:


> See if you can find something very specific, because the hazards are much different from one battery type to the other. Lithium batteries can self-ignite, but put one in a fire resistant plastic case and all you'll get is a lot of smoke. Lead acid batteries will actually produce hydrogen, and if you put enough of them in a small space, you can have a pretty serious explosion.


So I'm looking at NFPA (National Fire Protection Association. You can access their codes for free by giving them your email address (which I am happy to do for work since that's part of what I do). The relevant code is 111:
*Standard on Stored Electrical Energy Emergency and Standby Power Systems*

Chapter 7 of the code deals with installation standards. I do see that there's a ventilation requirement but only for "....equipment using a free flowing electrolyte (aka vented or flooded), batteries which have vents..." and goes on to talk about having adequate ventilation in the space to prevent buildup of gases. I don't see anything that requires it be a certain distance from a door or window. That seems like it's, as someone else said, talking about gases which could get inside, like from a generator. There's also nothing about stacking them, or protecting them with concrete bollards.

Regarding storage space, the same space cannot be used as storage. And if you were running equipment greater than 150 v per line or over 1,000 amps (unlikely!) then you couldn't put it in the same space as your switchgear.

NY State has adopted 2017 NEC as their standard.

2017 NEC Part 706 references "Energy Storage Systems".

706.10 (B) says "Guarding of live parts shall conform with 110.27.

110.27 Says:

110.27 Guarding of Live Parts.

(A) Live Parts Guarded Against Accidental Contact. Except as elsewhere required or permitted by this Code, live parts of elec‐ trical equipment operating at 50 to 1000 volts, nominal shall be guarded against accidental contact by approved enclosures or by any of the following means: (1) By location in a room, vault, or similar enclosure that is accessible only to qualified persons. (2) By permanent, substantial partitions or screens arranged so that only qualified persons have access to the space within reach of the live parts. Any openings in such parti‐ tions or screens shall be sized and located so that persons are not likely to come into accidental contact with the live parts or to bring conducting objects into contact with them. (3) By location on a balcony, gallery, or platform elevated and arranged so as to exclude unqualified persons. (4) By elevation above the floor or other working surface as follows: a. A minimum of 2.5 m (8 ft) for 50 volts to 300 volts between ungrounded conductors b. A minimum of 2.6 m (8 ft 6 in.) for 301 volts to 600 volts between ungrounded conductors c. A minimum of 2.62 m (8 ft 7 in.) for 601 volts to 1000 volts between ungrounded conductors

*(B) Prevent Physical Damage. In locations where electrical equipment is likely to be exposed to physical damage, enclo‐ sures or guards shall be so arranged and of such strength as to prevent such damage. *

(C) Warning Signs. Entrances to rooms and other guarded locations that contain exposed live parts shall be marked with conspicuous warning signs forbidding unqualified persons to enter. The marking shall meet the requirements in 110.21(B).

There is also this:

706.34 Battery Locations. Battery locations shall conform to 706.34(A), (B), and (C).

(A) Live Parts. Guarding of live parts shall comply with 110.27.

*(B) Top Terminal Batteries. Where top terminal batteries are installed on tiered racks or on shelves of battery cabinets, work‐ ing space in accordance with the storage equipment manufac‐ turer's instructions shall be provided between the highest point on a storage system component and the row, shelf, or ceiling above that point. Informational Note: IEEE 1187 provides guidance for top clear‐ ance of VRLA batteries, which are the most commonly used battery in cabinets. *

(C) Gas Piping. Gas piping shall not be permitted in dedica‐ ted battery rooms

So that top terminal batteries could be the reason why they indicate you can't stack them.

Hope this helps!


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## Wooloomooloo (Oct 29, 2017)

jlquinn said:


> @Needsdecaf thanks. I'm in a small town, so might be able to get a reasonable answer.


I'm considering this and am in (or shortly will be in) Beacon, NY so I'll be interested in how you get along.


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## Needsdecaf (Dec 27, 2018)

Wooloomooloo said:


> I'm considering this and am in (or shortly will be in) Beacon, NY so I'll be interested in how you get along.


Used to live in Fishkill. Miss that area still. Beautiful right there on the water. Enjoy!


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## jlquinn (Aug 19, 2018)

Needsdecaf said:


> So I'm looking at NFPA (National Fire Protection Association. You can access their codes for free by giving them your email address (which I am happy to do for work since that's part of what I do). The relevant code is 111:
> *Standard on Stored Electrical Energy Emergency and Standby Power Systems*
> 
> ...
> ...


Thanks so much for looking all this up! By the way, when I said stacking, what I meant was horizontal stacking, not vertical stacking. So the top terminal clause shouldn't apply, I would think.

Cheers
Jerry


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## jlquinn (Aug 19, 2018)

The town inspector came by this week and basically confirmed the same thing the Tesla rep said. So it looks like I"m stuck with 3 foot separation on all sides for each powerwall and away from where the car would park.

Ah well, at least I'm not trying to fit 3 units in there.


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## FurryOne (Apr 19, 2019)

From the NYS Battery-Storage-Guidebook:

*R327.4 Location.* Energy storage systems shall only be installed in the following locations:


Detached garages and detached accessory structures.
Attached garages separated from the dwelling unit living space and sleeping units in accordance with Section R302 of this code.
Outdoors on exterior walls located a minimum 3 ft. from doors and windows.
Utility closets and storage or utility spaces within dwelling units and sleeping units
- I take #2 to mean no garages that have living quarters above them.
- This only mentions 3' rule for outside attachments.

There is a September 2019 supplement that I have yet to peruse.


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## Needsdecaf (Dec 27, 2018)

FurryOne said:


> From the NYS Battery-Storage-Guidebook:
> 
> *R327.4 Location.* Energy storage systems shall only be installed in the following locations:
> 
> ...


Would need to read Section R302 in order to see about #2. Attached garages can be separated from living quarters, just depends on what type of assembly is required to maintain separation.

Edit, nope, you can have living quarters above. (Helps to be in construction for two decades and also have run a department who did largely code research.  )

*R302.6 Dwelling-Garage Fire Separation*

The garage shall be separated as required by Table R302.6. Openings in garage walls shall comply with Section R302.5. Attachment of gypsum board shall comply with Table R702.3.5. The wall separation provisions of Table R302.6 shall not apply to garage walls that are perpendicular to the adjacent dwelling unit wall.

TABLE R302.6

DWELLING-GARAGE SEPARATION

*SEPARATION**MATERIAL*From the residence and atticsNot less than 1/2-inch gypsum board or equivalent applied to the
garage sideFrom habitable rooms above the garageNot less than 5/8-inch Type X gypsum board or equivalentStructure(s) supporting floor/ceiling assemblies used for separation
required by this sectionNot less than 1/2-inch gypsum board or equivalentGarages located less than 3 feet from a dwelling unit on the same lotNot less than 1/2-inch gypsum board or equivalent applied to the interior
side of exterior walls that are within this area

For SI: 1 inch = 25.4 mm, 1 foot = 304.8 mm.


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## garsh (Apr 4, 2016)

FurryOne said:


> 4. Utility closets and storage or utility spaces within dwelling units and sleeping units


Does that mean I can put it wherever I want as long as I build a little closet around it?


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## Needsdecaf (Dec 27, 2018)

garsh said:


> Does that mean I can put it wherever I want as long as I build a little closet around it?


You'd have to check the code for what defines a utility closet.


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## FurryOne (Apr 19, 2019)

garsh said:


> Does that mean I can put it wherever I want as long as I build a little closet around it?


Is Pittsburg in New York State? I would presume that PA has it's own Battery Storage Handbook, eh?


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## FurryOne (Apr 19, 2019)

Well, on Monday Tesla will officially ban anyone from making comments on their forums. This is especially true of their Solar Panel & Solar Roof forums, which were loaded with rather unflattering comments concerning Tesla's lack of coordination, lack of responsiveness, long wait times, and other various problems. Tesla will replace their forums with their "Engage Tesla" site, which so far looks like just a placeholder.


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## jlquinn (Aug 19, 2018)

The panels and powerwalls are installed! The powerwalls are indeed 3 feet from all openings and each other. The gateway is outside and the inverters are inside, since I had the option there. There wasn't room to put the gateway inside by the panel. The installation looks very clean to my eyes.

I also learned that the powerwalls are rated for 24" of flooding, which seemed pretty impressive to me.


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## FurryOne (Apr 19, 2019)

Well, here it is, another day, another low for Tesla Energy. I started out by ordering the 8.16KW solar panel array, and got to the point where they were going to start the permitting, but wondered why I didn't just go with the solar roof instead and not have to worry down the road, so I cancelled the panels, and ordered the 8.46KW solar roof. More money, but both listed good Federal & state tax incentives, and both listed NYSERDA grants of about $3K. So I get the contract and the NYSERDA grant is listed as $0.00 - say what? After a few choice questions, I get an email back stating that the solar roof doesn't qualify for the grant (So why is it prominently listed on their website?). And to make matters worse, they have no solar roof installers in my area and there's no timeline for having any. WTF!!!! What was I supposed to do, sit on my thumbs until somebody decided to get their crew solar roof qualified? For a Company that supposedly has good software engineers I'd think that if I put in a location not supported it would say so before going any further. Elon needs to get his head out of Mars and straighten out Tesla Energy! Now I have to start all over again with the solar panel side of Tesla Energy.


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## bsunny (Oct 8, 2018)

My situation has not been exactly the same as yours, but I feel your pain.
It’s not good, the whole way they interact with customers. I had my own pains going through our process of getting a solar panel system. I almost gave up several times but it finally came together and was installed in January. That’s a longer story for another day, but in the end we are happy so far.
Since then, I’ve spent hours helping two friends try to navigate the process. One was hoping to get a solar roof, so your experience has me concerned. 
The other ordered panels and had no onsite visit from them at all until they showed up Tuesday to do the install and said they couldn’t do it because the sump pump was within three feet of the electric panel. Tesla seems to have streamlined their process by eliminating the on-site house assessment, so no one saw that coming. Now she has to move her electric panel before they will do the work. The only way she managed to get that far into it was because of my hand-holding. She is so mad at them because of their lack of communication that she might cancel the whole thing now. And I feel bad because I talked her into it.

Tesla has so many non-intuitive processes that are not well-defined or documented and don’t follow norms. It starts with the simple concept of the potential customer just wanting to talk to someone to get an estimate... can’t be done. And, you cannot use the referral code unless you go into the order page through that link.

I honestly don’t know how they sell anything except their products are the best on the market (so far.) And, they have a lot of unpaid “ambassadors” like me who help their sales by word-of-mouth.
Don’t get me wrong, I am a Tesla “fan”—early adopter, etc. But ugh.


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## jlquinn (Aug 19, 2018)

BTW, I learned the hard way that the NYSERDA grant not just computed on the system size. The grant depends on the expected output of the system, which is affected by the array orientation and predicted shading. There's an expected production factor that is computed and the grant is prorated based on that computation. In my case, the roofline is almost N-S, meaning that the panels face east and west. This, combined with a degree of tree shading, resulted in the expected production factor ended up about 0.3, resulting in a significant reduction.

When I realized that, I talked to the Tesla project manager, who told me that this computation comes from NYSERDA. For me, the tree shading wasn't a large part of the reduction, and likely wouldn't justify the cost of taking down those trees.

On Tesla's part, I asked them to improve their sales system be more sophisticated and at least indicating that the NYSERDA grant is often significantly less than the maximum. Even better would be to automatically estimate the likely grant reduction.


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## Bigriver (Jan 26, 2018)

jlquinn said:


> There's an expected production factor that is computed and the grant is prorated based on that computation. In my case, the roofline is almost N-S, meaning that the panels face east and west. This, combined with a degree of tree shading, resulted in the expected production factor ended up about 0.3, resulting in a significant reduction


Production factor of 0.3 sounds extremely low. Like, for a 10 kW system it is only estimated to produce 3000 kWh/year?


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## jlquinn (Aug 19, 2018)

I don't know if 0.3 is really the expected output by NYSERDA formula, or if it is just a factor they compute to prorate the incentive. Either way, it was somewhat painful.


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## FurryOne (Apr 19, 2019)

Since my last posting I applied for Tesla solar panels (8K, 2 PWs), got a scheduled install date, and got my panels & Powerwalls installed - kind of... Rather than installing a Gateway 2, they wanted to install the Backup Switch, which is much simpler, but National Grid freaked out and refused to reconnect me if it wasn't removed. So unless National Grid relents, I'm going to have to wait for another install to be scheduled so they can chop up my entrance cable and insert a Gateway 2. Until then I'm dead in the water.


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## FurryOne (Apr 19, 2019)

BTW, for those in NY on National Grid, TESLA has the NYSERDA grant listed as $2,007.81 for an 8K system with 2 Powerwalls.


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## FurryOne (Apr 19, 2019)

Since my June 29th posting... Tesla came back on August 20 to finish the install. Tesla inspector came on August 24th and discovered that one of the two strings wan't producing anything. Tesla came on August 27th, troubleshot the System, and found that the Inverter wasn't working - wouldn't even pass it's self-test. They left while I was at an appointment - no note, no follow up message, nada. I called Tesla on September 20th and got bounced between their Post-PTO and Pre-PTO scheduling, finally ending at Pre-PTO scheduling, where after explaining the problem with my system the Woman on the other end of the line recited the "You are in Pre-PTO status" routine, and hung up on me when I asked her if she understood what I'd said. I also emailed my Advisor, who never returned my inquiry. Why they even bother to assign "Advisors" is beyond me since I've never had one answer the phone or emails. So here I wait for Tesla to get off their collective a$$es and fix my system.


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## Bigriver (Jan 26, 2018)

FurryOne said:


> Tesla came on August 27th, troubleshot the System, and found that the Inverter wasn't working


I'm curious what inverter it was. I've had 2 out of 2 SolarEdge inverters die within 3 years, and had one of the replacement inverters DOA. My ears are particularly attuned to people noting inverter failures, and it is honestly sounding like the thousands of crickets on a summer evening. Almost seems the norm.


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## FurryOne (Apr 19, 2019)

Bigriver said:


> I'm curious what inverter it was. I've had 2 out of 2 SolarEdge inverters die within 3 years, and had one of the replacement inverters DOA. My ears are particularly attuned to people noting inverter failures, and it is honestly sounding like the thousands of crickets on a summer evening. Almost seems the norm.


I have the Tesla inverter that comes in the Powerwall+ package. (This photo is from when the Backup Switch had yet to be installed - it's in the cardboard box on the Powerwall 2.)


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## FurryOne (Apr 19, 2019)

Wow, since I was the last one to post in this thread, I'll continue... Shortly after Tesla finished installing my Backup Switch, which they had to install like their Gateway2 (break the cable between the meter and the breaker box) The system was running, but soon started giving DC Arc Faults, having to be reset every day. Tesla noticed and sent me an email saying my System needed maintenance. (9/01) They came by on 9/09 and troubleshot the System, after which the System was completely dead. I waited... 10/08 I called Scheduling and found out that while the replacement parts had been set aside and marked for my System, nobody bothered to call to schedule an install, which I did while on the phone. 10/27 - Tesla replaced both the PW+ and PW2 - now the System was working. (Numerous calls to Tesla about status - nada.) 01/24/22 - got another "will escalate your status" answer, but the next day I got my Form K's and NYSERDA application. 1/28 - NYSERDA application approved (grant) (161 days since install) Now i'm waiting for Tesla/National Grid paper dance to complete. NG says they've granted tentative approval on my system, pending Tesla's paperwork.


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## FurryOne (Apr 19, 2019)

It's ben a long time since that last posting in February - I got PTO on March 23rd, and since NYSERDA grants went from 25 cents/watt to 50 cents/watt, and Tesla applied after the increase, they cut me a check for the difference they received. Also, someone posted a diagram of where Powerwalls were to be placed in garages, and here it is for anyone that was wondering.


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## shareef777 (Mar 10, 2019)

How long did it take from start to finish? From what I read in the thread put in your order in June of last year and finally received PTO in March of this year. 10 months doesn't seem to be out of the ordinary from what I've read. Took 6mo for me from order to install and I'm likely going to need another 2mo for PTO.

Who created that diagram? Is it an official Tesla document? I had my two PW+ units installed in a 3rd car garage and they were planning on installing a bollard. I explained that we don't park vehicles in that spot so they skipped the bollard install but mentioned that they may be forced to come back out to install it. My units are behind a return wall, not in the driving path, and does not require a bollard based on that doc.


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## FurryOne (Apr 19, 2019)

shareef777 said:


> How long did it take from start to finish? From what I read in the thread put in your order in June of last year and finally received PTO in March of this year. 10 months doesn't seem to be out of the ordinary from what I've read. Took 6mo for me from order to install and I'm likely going to need another 2mo for PTO.


Actually my Solar panel journey started back in January 2021, but I switched to a Solar Roof, then back to Solar Panels on 3/17/21. Initial install on 6/25/21, but stalled over the backup switch, that my local Utility refused to allow. Finished the install on 8/20/21. Problems with arcing, Tesla replaced both PW2 & PW+ on 10/27/21. Received PTO on 3/23/22.



> Who created that diagram? Is it an official Tesla document? I had my two PW+ units installed in a 3rd car garage and they were planning on installing a bollard. I explained that we don't park vehicles in that spot so they skipped the bollard install but mentioned that they may be forced to come back out to install it. My units are behind a return wall, not in the driving path, and does not require a bollard based on that doc.


I can't say who actually generated that doc, but it looks like a Tesla item. When my City Inspector finally got around to inspecting my System he wanted a copy for him to reference on future inspections. All I know is that it was posted online.


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## Robin6v (3 mo ago)

jlquinn said:


> Even if your panel is in the basement on the opposite side of the house from the garage, the panels would have to be in the garage. Or outside, where cold weather would impact their performance.


This is so insane, like willingly they want it to get effected by the weather 😑


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