# Why are most EV designs so terrible?



## Tesla_Montreal (May 7, 2016)

With the exception of the Rimac and the Teslas, seems most EV designs are just god awful... Chevy Volt, Bolt, EV1, Leaf, i3 etc they can design a nice looking car but it's almost as if it's done on purpose to dissuade consumers from buying them, is it some type of conspiracy to make EV's look awful?



Frank


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## garsh (Apr 4, 2016)

Traditional automakers start with the premise that electric cars allow you to drive around cheaply, since electricity is less expensive than gasoline. So they decide to dip their toes into the EV water by designing an econobox. So they design a small car. At some point, they come to the realization that the car is going to cost twice as much as any other econobox, so they make it look "quirky" so that people will know that this is different - it's an EV!

Tesla started with the premise that EVs are inherently better than internal combustion cars in every way, then they set out to prove it. They started at the high end, and made (somewhat conservative, but) desirable, sporty looking cars. As did Rimac, apparently (I had never heard of them until now).

The i8 isn't an EV. It's a hybrid. And the exterior has too much of those same "quirky" superfluous additions that tell me it's trying too hard to be different. It looks better than a Leaf or an i3, but I think it looks worse than other cars in its class. So AFAIAC, BMW doesn't get it either.


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## TrevP (Oct 20, 2015)

garsh said:


> Traditional automakers start with the premise that electric cars allow you to drive around cheaply, since electricity is less expensive than gasoline. So they decide to dip their toes into the EV water by designing an econobox. So they design a small car. At some point, they come to the realization that the car is going to cost twice as much as any other econobox, so they make it look "quirky" so that people will know that this is different - it's an EV!
> 
> Tesla started with the premise that EVs are inherently better than internal combustion cars in every way, then they set out to prove it. They started at the high end, and made (somewhat conservative, but) desirable, sporty looking cars. As did Rimac, apparently (I had never heard of them until now).
> 
> The i8 isn't an EV. It's a hybrid. And the exterior has too much of those same "quirky" superfluous additions that tell me it's trying too hard to be different. It looks better than a Leaf or an i3, but I think it looks worse than other cars in its class. So AFAIAC, BMW doesn't get it either.


Pretty much what @garsh said. I'd add my $.02 worth...

Protectionism of current products aside, I think the mentality of the car makers is that an EV has a different drive train therefore the design must also convey the message that this is a different car. The end result is generally designs that are teetering on "George Jetson" and thus turns off most buyers and public opinion.

Tesla understood right from the beginning that "sex sells" and thus made their cars have an amounts of sex appeal with sleek, modern, clean designs that don't scream "I'm different". Show a Model S to anyone not aware of Tesla and they would never know it's an EV unless you told them. This fact keeps customers from turning away and the other little touches of whimsy cement it.

Everyone has an opinion but as far as the others are concerned, the Volt (old or current one) is least offensive to me however I find the latest incarnation rather pedestrian and Honda Civic-like. The LEAF is just a quirkier version of a Versa. I happen to like the BMW i3 

The Bolt in production garb is a bit disappointing, I liked the concept more. Yes it still has the general shape but GM should have stuck with the Tesla "greenhouse". Glad we're getting that on the Model 3.

One last thought: _Think like a designer when you see the other cars_. If you make the car small because you need to keep weight down to increase the range then you have compromises for the interior. You need the internal space. Therefore you don't have the length to spread out the interior so your only choice is to make it taller. That pretty much means a sharp cutoff hatchback and it's very very difficult to make those aerodynamic and sleek. The i3, Bolt, LEAF are all examples of this. The Volt has a fighting chance to be a good looking car but GM designs by committee.


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## MelindaV (Apr 2, 2016)

TrevP said:


> Pretty much what @garsh
> 
> Tesla understood right from the beginning that "sex sells" and thus made their cars have an amounts of sex appeal with sleek, modern, clean designs that don't scream "I'm different".


The roadster did a lot of screaming "look at me! I'm different" in a fantastic way.


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## garsh (Apr 4, 2016)

MelindaV said:


> The roadster did a lot of screaming "look at me! I'm different" in a fantastic way.


In the "small sports car" segment, the roadster looked like just another Lotus. An observer would have no idea that it was electric.


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## Tesla_Montreal (May 7, 2016)

garsh said:


> Traditional automakers start with the premise that electric cars allow you to drive around cheaply, since electricity is less expensive than gasoline. So they decide to dip their toes into the EV water by designing an econobox. So they design a small car. At some point, they come to the realization that the car is going to cost twice as much as any other econobox, so they make it look "quirky" so that people will know that this is different - it's an EV!
> 
> Tesla started with the premise that EVs are inherently better than internal combustion cars in every way, then they set out to prove it. They started at the high end, and made (somewhat conservative, but) desirable, sporty looking cars. As did Rimac, apparently (I had never heard of them until now).
> 
> The i8 isn't an EV. It's a hybrid. And the exterior has too much of those same "quirky" superfluous additions that tell me it's trying too hard to be different. It looks better than a Leaf or an i3, but I think it looks worse than other cars in its class. So AFAIAC, BMW doesn't get it either.


Thanks for the reply, all great points. I was under the impression that EV's had less restraints given it's platform (essentially a flat board without an ICE, transmission) which allows you to "skin it" with more freedom. I just saw the 2016 Volt and have to say it looks much better (thought was a Civic also) and glad they're going towards the more mainstream look. You can be different and still look the same, perhaps it's a combination of having to make it more utilitarian due to the low range or technological constraints but seems if the cost of pressing a sheet of metal is the same, why would you not want to make it look good or at least the same as a ICE car. One of the coolest things is to see people take older cars and covert them to EV like an old Porsche 911 spyder or VW van or Lotus Elise à la Roadster, that should be hint enough I mean it's so clearly obvious, which is why I've always wondered if it was a conspiracy. Why don't they get it?!



TrevP said:


> Pretty much what @garsh said. I'd add my $.02 worth...
> 
> Protectionism of current products aside, I think the mentality of the car makers is that an EV has a different drive train therefore the design must also convey the message that this is a different car. The end result is generally designs that are teetering on "George Jetson" and thus turns off most buyers and public opinion.
> 
> ...


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## AEDennis (Apr 10, 2016)

Tesla_Montreal said:


> ...I was under the impression that EV's had less restraints given it's platform (essentially a flat board without an ICE, transmission) which allows you to "skin it" with more freedom....


This is the platform and pitch of upstart Faraday Future and its VPA (Variable Platform Architecture).

Granted all they've launched for public consumption is the FFZERO1 concept.

But, they share the same investors as LeEco (the company behind the concept LeSEE) touted as an autonomous "Tesla" killer, as these things are often marketed nowadays...


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## Tesla_Montreal (May 7, 2016)

Again... one of those Geo


AEDennis said:


> This is the platform and pitch of upstart Faraday Future and its VPA (Variable Platform Architecture).
> 
> Granted all they've launched for public consumption is the FFZERO1 concept.
> 
> ...


It's nice but...again, looks like one of those Jetsons-like concepts that'll never make it into production.


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## MelindaV (Apr 2, 2016)

garsh said:


> In the "small sports car" segment, the roadster looked like just another Lotus. An observer would have no idea that it was electric.


but it hooked me way back then because it was an EV all wrapped up in a Lotus.


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## chopr147 (May 23, 2016)

Tesla_Montreal said:


> With the exception of the Rimac and the Teslas, seems most EV designs are just god awful... Chevy Volt, Bolt, EV1, Leaf, i3 etc they can design a nice looking car but it's almost as if it's done on purpose to dissuade consumers from buying them, is it some type of conspiracy to make EV's look awful?
> 
> Frank


I have said the same thing every time I see an EV. Before Tesla I had never seen an EV I would even think about buying. Even BMW, a quality, upscale car maker could not do better than this?
It's a funky box with wheels.


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## Mark C (Aug 26, 2016)

I agree that the BMW i3 is a funky box with wheels, but I think it's kind of cool much like a few million people liked the original VW Beetle. 

That said, with it's new 33 kWh battery pack, I'd buy one, except for it costs hugely more today than the base Model 3 is going to cost. I fail to see the $15k extra value of the BMW name.


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## BigBri (Jul 16, 2016)

Yeah this has been my frustration too. I would have leased an EV last year if I had any options. I totally get the ideas of an econobox but every single EV has odd designs outside of team Tesla. I used to think it was marketing to mellenials or maybe teens going off to university but it really just seems like regulatory compliance so they can keep selling ICE cars.


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## TrevP (Oct 20, 2015)

AEDennis said:


> Exactly, that was all the press on Faraday Future was that the FFZERO1 is not a car anyone wanted in production. Folks were expecting a production prototype in January from FF.


I think FF was under some kind of pressure from investors to show... something. Yeah, we were all expecting them to be like Tesla and actually show a production intent car and not some kind of wild concept. So FF is in the same books as everyone else in my opinion. I had high hopes for them but they haven't convinced me yet they're any different than the other car makers at this point. I'll keep an open mind though but fool me once...



chopr147 said:


> I have said the same thing every time I see an EV. Before Tesla I had never seen an EV I would even think about buying. Even BMW, a quality, upscale car maker could not do better than this?





Mark C said:


> I agree that the BMW i3 is a funky box with wheels, but I think it's kind of cool much like a few million people liked the original VW Beetle.
> 
> That said, with it's new 33 kWh battery pack, I'd buy one, except for it costs hugely more today than the base Model 3 is going to cost. I fail to see the $15k extra value of the BMW name.


BMW decided to try something different with first first true EV (i3). You might balk at the high cost of the car compared to others but show me another production car with an all-carbon fibre body that requires lots of manufacturing steps. There's a lot of stuff going on under that car that is all new and is only scalable to lower-level stuff. BMW is investing heavily in carbon fibre and that tech developed on the i3 is making it's way into the rest of the line up. I like BMW a lot but I'm not making excuses for them. Sure the car should be cheaper and should have a 200 mile range but realities are that the form factor doesn't allow for a large battery like a Tesla and the looks department is hampered by a short wheel base. If you can put the looks aside for a moment and take one for a test drive I think you'd be pretty impressed with what it does deliver.



Brian_North said:


> Yeah this has been my frustration too. I would have leased an EV last year if I had any options. I totally get the ideas of an econobox but every single EV has odd designs outside of team Tesla. I used to think it was marketing to mellenials or maybe teens going off to university but it really just seems like regulatory compliance so they can keep selling ICE cars.


I'm not one for conspiracies (car markers are making EVS look like **** so as to not kill their ICE car sales) but the whole "looks different" is coming from the mind set that that "this is a different drive train for us and it's futuristic so let's make the car look like that". I think it's pure and simple however a bit misguided as far as the public is concerned.

Tesla got it right: make a sexy EV by using a lot of design elements from high end cars so give the car a premium look without it being "futuristic". It's no coincidence that a Model S/3 look like love children of Aston Martin, Jaguar, Porsche etc...

I'm an unabashed lover of technology and not really put off by futuristic designs like the i3, new Mercedes EQ and VW ID. There are design elements from those that make sense and give the cars a fresh take on stodgy old design conventions however not everyone likes that and I get it. Given the direction that Mercedes, BMW and VW went with the interiors of their cars I can't understand why so many people are freaking out over the Model 3 interior which is very understated by comparison.

Model 3:









Mercedes EQ concept:









VW ID Concept:





Why the Germans are so obsessed with blue lighting and accents on their EVs however is beyond me


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## TrevP (Oct 20, 2015)

And I thought the door sills on a Model S were borderline too high... Nice looking car though but the fascia should benefit from the new Tesla treatment.


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## Mark C (Aug 26, 2016)

TrevP said:


> Why the Germans are so obsessed with blue lighting and accents on their EVs however is beyond me


For my part, I think they spent too much time watching Tron


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## TrevP (Oct 20, 2015)

Mark C said:


> For my part, I think they spent too much time watching Tron


Funny, I was thinking the same thing.


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## BigBri (Jul 16, 2016)

I admit I like the blue lights lol. I'm totally down for the way some of these concept cars look but they'll look very different in the end. Still it's something different from the toastermobiles we've seen so I'm happy.


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## MelindaV (Apr 2, 2016)

I don't mind the style of the i3. Especially the interior appears to have some style and intention put into it that doesn't come off looking like an economy car (like the Bolt).
However.... having done a couple fiberglass projects, and knowing how noxious the resins can be, it doesn't seem very enviro friendly/appropriate to use CF for the body - for weight reduction, absolutely.


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## chopr147 (May 23, 2016)

TrevP said:


> There's a lot of stuff going on under that car that is all new and is only scalable to lower-level stuff. BMW is investing heavily in carbon fibre and that tech developed on the i3 is making it's way into the rest of the line up


I have knocked the BMW i3 for it's looks and meager range but maybe I can be persuaded. Having driven one and having looked over it closely it is a funky, interesting car. I would not buy one before a Model 3 but can see the attraction for others. BMW is trying to extend the range and spending for EV R & D. Good for them and the rest of us. Tesla will have a huge advantage with their charging network for many years though.


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## Michael Russo (Oct 15, 2016)

It will be interesting to see what they do to the design... wow, only 25,000 last year... Trust they have higher ambitions for the new one...
Again, BMW clearly teased by T≡SLA! 
Just like I wrote for Toyota, good luck to them too!
http://mobile.reuters.com/article/idUSKBN13M04W


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## Gilberto Pe-Curto (Oct 20, 2016)

Tesla_Montreal said:


> With the exception of the Rimac and the Teslas, seems most EV designs are just god awful... Chevy Volt, Bolt, EV1, Leaf, i3 etc they can design a nice looking car but it's almost as if it's done on purpose to dissuade consumers from buying them, is it some type of conspiracy to make EV's look awful?
> Frank


I really think there's a lot of proteccionism behind this.
It looks like other manufacturers are "affraid" of EV success...
Look at this YT video at this exact time.




Trev's videos and this guy's are my Youtube favs


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## TrevP (Oct 20, 2015)

I don't really subscribe to the whole deliberate protectionism theory about EV designs. 

I think the unappealing nature is due to the misguided thinking that because EVs have a different drive train than they're used to making that they think the owners want to make it known that it's an EV. The only way to highlight that is to make it look "futuristic". 

What constitutes futuristic of course is highly subjective. The LEAF, to me, is unappealing but I think the BMW i3 is very well executed however a bit too polarizing. 

Tesla certainly understands that sex appeal sells and doing designs that are out there is not necessary. They push design trends just enough to make them stand out but not be too garish (I'm talking about the new nose cone less facelift) .


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## Michael Russo (Oct 15, 2016)

TrevP said:


> I don't really subscribe to the whole deliberate protectionism theory about EV designs.
> 
> I think the unappealing nature is due to the misguided thinking that because EVs have a different drive train than they're used to making that they think the owners want to make it known that it's an EV. The only way to highlight that is to make it look "futuristic".
> 
> ...


Trev, I think you are right... that must have been what guided the BMW designers when they drew the i3... The Leaf was intriguing to me when it first came out (remember seeing it at the Houston Galleria Mall when launched... ) yet I did not know better then, and certainly did not appreciate its range let alone battery efficiency limitations... the Renault Zoe is quite OK as a city car which is probably why it sells reasonably well in Europe...
The only nice looking ones besides T≡SLA today are super cars that nobody can afford (like the most recent 'fastest EV car in the world or this... my Italian blood is boiling...  http://hypebeast.com/2016/11/maserati-electric-alfieri )... yet that is likely to evolve as traditional carmakers turn their attention to BEVs in a more serious way (recent prototypes by Daimler and VW shown in Paris seem to be going in this direction...). Again on this matter, Elon and friends will have paved the way!


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## Michael Russo (Oct 15, 2016)

Look at what's new in China. Was particularly intrigued about the driver for the blue color (now we know which market German carmakers are really looking at!). As far as design... well, I rest my case... one big kudo for effort though... 
http://insideevs.com/here-are-5-all-new-electric-cars-from-chinese-automakers/


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## Gilberto Pe-Curto (Oct 20, 2016)

TrevP said:


> I don't really subscribe to the whole deliberate protectionism theory about EV designs.
> 
> I think the unappealing nature is due to the misguided thinking that because EVs have a different drive train than they're used to making that they think the owners want to make it known that it's an EV. The only way to highlight that is to make it look "futuristic".
> 
> ...


@TrevP 
You really think that auto makers are so naive to the point that they think that people like cars big blue lines and neons all over the place ?
I think they have better data about consumer tastes that could easily show that is not the case...
But anyway, I'm just me...you see I like Mel Gibson a lot ... 
;-)


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## Michael Russo (Oct 15, 2016)

Gilberto Pe-Curto said:


> @TrevP
> You really think that auto makers are so naive to the point that they think that people like cars big blue lines and neons all over the place ?
> I think they have better data about consumer tastes that could easily show that is not the case...
> But anyway, I'm just me...you see I like Mel Gibson a lot ...
> ;-)


Amigo, help me understand the Mel Gibson reference... please...


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## garsh (Apr 4, 2016)

Gilberto Pe-Curto said:


> @TrevP
> You really think that auto makers are so naive to the point that they think that people like cars big blue lines and neons all over the place ?


Note that "blue == good-for-environment" is popular in Europe & Asia, but not North America. In NA, it's "green". Thankfully, Chevy was wise enough not to put green accents all over the Volt or Bolt.

While the BMW i3 (and i8) obviously has blue accents everywhere, the Leaf only has some blue badging. I'm hoping that the severe blue lines added to the prototypes seen at the links above will only appear on the prototypes, and will disappear when they get to production. It is very ridiculous.


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## Gilberto Pe-Curto (Oct 20, 2016)

Michael Russo said:


> Amigo, help me understand the Mel Gibson reference... please...


Here it is @Michael Russo


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## Michael Russo (Oct 15, 2016)

Gilberto Pe-Curto said:


> Here it is @Michael Russo


Muito obrigado...  See you're into classics!


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## Gilberto Pe-Curto (Oct 20, 2016)

I'm almost a 'classic' human being myself...


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## Gilberto Pe-Curto (Oct 20, 2016)

Michael Russo said:


> Amigo, help me understand the Mel Gibson reference... please...


Think about what would be if automakers really promoted cars like the Mercedes B 250E.
If people adopted them, auto makers and dealerships will loose great part of revenue from periodic maintenance, because these cars don't need that much of maintenance like ICE cars do.
Fortunately we have Tesla that is a really "game changer" and will push them to do what they were postponing as much as they could, to squeeze all they can from their current business that is like this for decades

Change has huge costs for conventional auto makers..
Huge costs !

I've never been so enthusiast for a thing like I am with Tesla (and Elon) since I bought my first Personal Computer when I was 18 y.o.


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## Michael Russo (Oct 15, 2016)

Gilberto Pe-Curto said:


> Think about what would be if automakers really promoted cars like the Mercedes B 250E.
> If people adopted them, auto makers and dealerships will loose great part of revenue from periodic maintenance, because these cars don't need that much of maintenance like ICE cars do.
> Fortunately we have Tesla that is a really "game changer" and will push them to do what they were postponing as much as they could, to squeeze all they can from their current business that is like this for decades
> 
> ...


Hey, Gilberto, I took the time to watch the Fully Charged video on the B250e... It seems really clear that Mercedes are NOT interested in selling this car... small battery, low range, no ability to fast charge (!), no promotion whatsoever, on the contrary reps reportedly respond to interested parties to consider the diesel or gasoline version... and you can get it at a (large!) discount...!!
Also in this case it is also funny to note that the design is almost too identical (if it wasn't for the infamous blue stripes & mirrors addition... ) to the ICE equivalent... hence not futuristic enough, no? 
This is actually a good illustration of the fact that _up to now_, traditional ICE carmakers have only been doing this reluctantly... yet would rather not to, if it was not for, probably primarily T≡SLA which forces them to shift gears rapidly...
Interesting... obrigado!


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## Gilberto Pe-Curto (Oct 20, 2016)

Michael Russo said:


> ...
> , on the contrary reps reportedly respond to interested parties to consider the diesel or gasoline version... and you can get it at a (large!) discount...!!
> ...


You're getting there.
Last month I went to a Audi dealership and they were making a 5000€ discount on the new Audi A3
I was tempted to return my and get a new one.
5000€!!!!

In portugal we have a saying:
Please help me translating correctly, I'm trusting Google on this 
"When the alms is much the poor one suspects"


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## Michael Russo (Oct 15, 2016)

Gilberto Pe-Curto said:


> You're getting there.
> Last month I went to a Audi dealership and they were making a 5000€ discount on the new Audi A3
> I was tempted to return my and get a new one.
> 5000€!!!!
> ...


Not sure about Google here, amigo...  What is the original saying in Portuguese?


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## Gilberto Pe-Curto (Oct 20, 2016)

Michael Russo said:


> Not sure about Google here, amigo...  What is the original saying in Portuguese?


"quando a esmola é muita o pobre desconfia"


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## Gilberto Pe-Curto (Oct 20, 2016)

Gilberto Pe-Curto said:


> "quando a esmola é muita o pobre desconfia"


using my IELTS level 6 English

"when the tip is too much , the poor one suspects"


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## Michael Russo (Oct 15, 2016)

Gilberto Pe-Curto said:


> using my IELTS level 6 English
> 
> "when the tip is too much , the poor one suspects"


Ok, buddy, I think Google should hire you!! Obrigado!!


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## Topher (May 11, 2016)

TrevP said:


> . I like BMW a lot but I'm not making excuses for them. Sure the car should be cheaper and should have a 200 mile range but realities are that the form factor doesn't allow for a large battery like a Tesla and the looks department is hampered by a short wheel base.


Who forced BMW to pick that short wheelbase?

Long wheelbase = more room for batteries, better easier aerodynamics, more space. Start big people, go small only after you have worked out the details.

Thank you kindly.


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## chopr147 (May 23, 2016)

Gilberto Pe-Curto said:


> Fortunately we have Tesla that is a really "game changer" and will push them to do what they were postponing


This hits the nail on the head. If Tesla did not exist we would ONLY get hybrids because of the emission standards and just good enough ones at that. Like the saying "good enough for government work" mentality. Tesla has lit a fire under the ass of all other traditional automakers forcing them to sit down and compete


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## Michael Russo (Oct 15, 2016)

Baby steps...
http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1107515_2017-nissan-leaf-preview


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## Badback (Apr 7, 2016)

Michael Russo said:


> Baby steps...
> http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1107515_2017-nissan-leaf-preview


Still looks like Kermit with indigestion.


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## Michael Russo (Oct 15, 2016)

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/videos/2016-12-01/is-this-the-tesla-of-motorbikes-iw66oanq
Sorry, guys, I would actually call it the 'Leaf' of motorcycles...!! It's gotta be the color!!


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## KirbyTurbo (Jun 24, 2016)

Topher said:


> Who forced BMW to pick that short wheelbase?
> 
> Long wheelbase = more room for batteries, better easier aerodynamics, more space. Start big people, go small only after you have worked out the details.
> 
> Thank you kindly.


I think it might have been them trying something new with a carbon fiber chassis. Just my guess though


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## Michael Russo (Oct 15, 2016)

KirbyTurbo said:


> I think it might have been them trying something new with a carbon fiber chassis. Just my guess though


@KirbyTurbo ,
Saw that you moved closer to Fremont to get your Model ≡ faster! Congrats!!


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## KirbyTurbo (Jun 24, 2016)

Michael Russo said:


> @KirbyTurbo ,
> Saw that you moved closer to Fremont to get your Model ≡ faster! Congrats!!


You got me there


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