# Sticky  2021 Status of Federal EV Tax Credit



## Bigriver (Jan 26, 2018)

I am starting this thread to try to capture key developments as the EV tax credit does or does not get restored for Tesla in 2021. It comes up in various threads, but I would find it helpful to have a thread dedicated to this topic. I am not a lawyer nor particularly knowledgeable about politics. But I do like to read the actual documents being talked about. So I am trying to assemble what I have found and would appreciate others clarifying or adding information they have.

As most people know, there is currently a U.S. federal tax credit (form 8936) of up to $7500 for the purchase of some new electric vehicles. It no longer applies to Tesla because the company passed the threshold of selling 200,000 electric vehicles in the U.S. This happened in 2018 and all new Tesla's bought through the end of 2018 qualified for the $7500 tax credit. It phased out in 2019, first reducing to $3750 and then to $1875. For Tesla's bought on or after January 1, 2020, there has been no federal tax credit.

In May 2021 the Senate finance committee considered the "Clean Energy for America Act" that suggested modifications to a number of existing programs associated with clean energy, among them being the EV tax credit. The committee voted to advance this with 14 Democrats in favor and 14 Republicans against it. The changes are described in 2 separate documents.
https://www.finance.senate.gov/imo/media/doc/Clean%20Energy%20for%20America%20Act%20-%20Chairman's%20Mark.pdf

https://www.finance.senate.gov/imo/...y_for_America_Act_Chairmans_Modified_Mark.pdf
The changes in the first document are:

Eliminate the manufacturer based limits. The effective date for new car sales is listed as May 24, 2021.
Create a new sunset provision for the credit to end based on 50% of the new car sales in the US being EV. The credit would them phase out over the following 2 years.
Make the tax credit refundable, meaning that someone with a tax liability of only $3500 could get the full benefit of the $7500 credit, as they would receive a $4000 tax refund. A refundable tax credit is not a point of purchase rebate. The effective date for this is after December 31, 2021.
The second document made further changes:

Create an additional $2500 credit for assembled in the U.S. EVs.
Create an additional $2500 credit for union-made EV.
Place an $80,000 price cap on eligible EVs.
The effective date for these changes is listed as after December 31, 2021.
The above is a summary of the EV credit changes as forwarded from the Senate Finance committee. They are all in S.2118, introduced into the Senate on June 17, 2021.
https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/BILLS-117s2118pcs/pdf/BILLS-117s2118pcs.pdf
After that, I have not searched actual legislation myself, but have the following understanding from various news articles:

The EV tax credit changes were to be included within a large infrastructure bill. However, the infrastructure bill got reduced to a "core" infrastructure bill. The only thing in it related to EVs is for charging stations. This core infrastructure bill was passed by the Senate yesterday, Aug 7, with a 67-27 vote. It next goes to the House, where it would seemingly pass easily, but some Democrats are upset it got pared down too far.
Edit: correction….what passed on 8/7 was an agreement to limit discussion. The core infrastructure bill passed the Senate on 8/10 with a 69-30 vote.

Many of the measures left out of the core infrastructure bill are to be rolled into a broader spending/budget bill, which cannot be stalled by a filibuster. Thus it only needs a simple majority to pass the Senate. It is yet to be seen what features remain, get modified and what gets cut during the reconciliation process. None of that will start until after Congress reconvenes after Labor Day.
Edit: On 8/10 there were a number of non-binding amendments passed on the Senate budget resolution. One of the amendments pertains to the EV tax credit, limiting the max EV price to $40,000 and the taxpayer's income to $100,000. I have not found much news on this, probably because nothing about it is binding. The Senate resolution let's the committees start drafting the actual legislation.

S.2118, or some later clean energy bill, could separately be considered. It could be subject to a filibuster, which needs 60 votes to end it, which makes it less likely to pass on its own.
{mod edit: added image for social media promotion}









*Sept 11, 2021 update:*








https://www.reuters.com/world/us/us-house-democrats-propose-ev-tax-credits-up-12500-2021-09-11/
*October 28 update in post #30*



Bigriver said:


> Here is the latest as of October 28, 2021. There are very few changes from the Sept 10 version. The buzz I hear is that they think they have the votes to pass this. For Tesla this would mean an $8000 credit.
> 
> https://rules.house.gov/sites/democrats.rules.house.gov/files/BILLS-117HR5376RH-RCP117-17.pdf ("Greening the Fleet" starts on p. 1240.)
> 
> ...


*Update of draft legislation (Nov 3 Version):*

https://rules.house.gov/sites/democrats.rules.house.gov/files/BILLS-117HR5376RH-RCP117-18.pdf"Greening the Fleet" starts on page 1480.

Key changes from previous version:

Price limit of $80k for vans, SUVs and pickup trucks. "Other" (i.e., sedans) remains at $55k.
Income (AGI) limits lowered a bit and a phaseout added: $500k joint/$375 HoH/$250k other
Limitation of credit for 1 taxpayer per year


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## TechDova (Aug 9, 2021)

We have a Model Y order and we expect to receive it in December of this year. Does this mean we should wait until next year to take deliver? I see two key effective dates May 24, 2021 and December 31, 2021. For the May date, if we will owe more than $10,000 on taxes, would we still benefit and get the incentive?


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## Bigriver (Jan 26, 2018)

TechDova said:


> We have a Model Y order and we expect to receive it in December of this year. Does this mean we should wait until next year to take deliver? I see two key effective dates May 24, 2021 and December 31, 2021. For the May date, if we will owe more than $10,000 on taxes, would we still benefit and get the incentive?


All depends what, if anything, passes. If the stipulations in S.2118 get passed this year, yes, the credit for a Tesla would be worth $7500 for deliveries after May 24 this year, and bump up to $10,000 for 2022. I'm pretty sure that would make everyone wanting to delay their end of 2021 deliveries, and not sure how Tesla would play that. There are some things they could do, like preferentially send cars outside the US for the last few months of 2021.

For deliveries this year, one would have to have a tax liability of $7500 to get the full credit. For deliveries in 2022 one would get the full $10k credit regardless of tax liability. I would point out that this is referring to your total federal tax liability, not just what you might owe after tax withholding.

I have read a lot of opinions on this, everything from there is absolutely no chance this will pass, to those who think it is highly likely, at least the part about removing the manufacturer basis for the $7500 credit expiring. Two things that seem most unusual:

The hardwired date of May 24. Usually dates are the beginning/end of the year or stating that it will be effective the date the legislation is passed and signed.
The credit for union-made.


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## TechDova (Aug 9, 2021)

Bigriver said:


> All depends what, if anything, passes. If the stipulations in S.2118 get passed this year, yes, the credit for a Tesla would be worth $7500 for deliveries after May 24 this year, and bump up to $10,000 for 2022. I'm pretty sure that would make everyone wanting to delay their end of 2021 deliveries, and not sure how Tesla would play that. There are some things they could do, like preferentially send cars outside the US for the last few months of 2021.
> 
> For deliveries this year, one would have to have a tax liability of $7500 to get the full credit. For deliveries in 2022 one would get the full $10k credit regardless of tax liability. I would point out that this is referring to your total federal tax liability, not just what you might owe after tax withholding.
> 
> ...


Thank you very much!


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## dwjordanjr (Aug 13, 2021)

I’m sure the companies that have been excluded with be making donations to elected officials and having their lobbyist make the rounds. Right now I’m just excited a bill is moving. We have a long way to go before anything is close to final. This bill will also have to make it’s way through the house.


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## M3Maven (Aug 23, 2021)

Thanks to everyone for all the updates on the federal tax credit. I have an M3 on order that was scheduled for September delivery. I just had the order put on hold until December to see if anything happens with Congress. If necessary, I will further delay it until 1/1/22 if that becomes the effective date. If it passes, I think you will see a a serious drop in Tesla orders for the M3.


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## GDN (Oct 30, 2017)

M3Maven said:


> Thanks to everyone for all the updates on the federal tax credit. I have an M3 on order that was scheduled for September delivery. I just had the order put on hold until December to see if anything happens with Congress. If necessary, I will further delay it until 1/1/22 if that becomes the effective date. If it passes, I think you will see a a serious drop in Tesla orders for the M3.


Tesla is selling every car they can make with a backlog of orders. They are very good at directing production to locations where it makes most sense. Hence if it is announced and US orders slow down due to people waiting (there is no indication of that right now even though we know something could be coming for a govt hand out) Tesla will just redirect production to overseas locations or RHD models and keep on building. There won't be a serious drop overall and likely even very little drop from US orders. We've watchted it happen in the last 3 years with various countries.


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## RickO2018 (Mar 13, 2018)

Are we thinking tax credits would apply depending on date of order or delivery date?


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## FRC (Aug 4, 2018)

RickO2018 said:


> Are we thinking tax credits would apply depending on date of order or delivery date?


In the past the credit has applied to delivery date only. It may also be important to remember; In the past Tesla has adjusted their MSRP to reflect any US tax credit. Much to the surprise of many of us who made sure to take delivery before the old $7500 credit was reduced, Tesla reduced the MSRP as the credit was reduced. In effect, while I got the full $7500 credit on a 73K car, those who bought the same car with $0 credit, got it for around $65.5K. In other words, Tesla got the benefit of the credit, not the buyer.

To some extent, I expect Tesla to do this again if the federal credit is enacted. The MSRP will increase by about the same amount as the credit and will come down as the credit ends or is phased out. I would expect Tesla to honor the quoted price of current orderers. So these people are in the advantageous position of getting the lower MSRP AND the credit if they can push delivery out until the credit is in effect. But, waiting to order until after the credit is enacted will likely be of little to no benefit. IMHO.


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## M3Maven (Aug 23, 2021)

FRC said:


> In the past the credit has applied to delivery date only. It may also be important to remember; In the past Tesla has adjusted their MSRP to reflect any US tax credit. Much to the surprise of many of us who made sure to take delivery before the old $7500 credit was reduced, Tesla reduced the MSRP as the credit was reduced. In effect, while I got the full $7500 credit on a 73K car, those who bought the same car with $0 credit, got it for around $65.5K. In other words, Tesla got the benefit of the credit, not the buyer.
> 
> To some extent, I expect Tesla to do this again if the federal credit is enacted. The MSRP will increase by about the same amount as the credit and will come down as the credit ends or is phased out. I would expect Tesla to honor the quoted price of current orderers. So these people are in the advantageous position of getting the lower MSRP AND the credit if they can push delivery out until the credit is in effect. But, waiting to order until after the credit is enacted will likely be of little to no benefit. IMHO.


I'm not understanding wny you think Tesla would increase the MSRP if/when the credit is introduced. I'm not being snide, I would just like to hear your thoughts.


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## garsh (Apr 4, 2016)

M3Maven said:


> I'm not understanding wny you think Tesla would increase the MSRP if/when the credit is introduced. I'm not being snide, I would just like to hear your thoughts.


Because in the past, they've reduced MSRP as the federal credit was reduced.

https://www.wired.com/story/tesla-tax-credit-price-cut/


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## Klaus-rf (Mar 6, 2019)

M3Maven said:


> I'm not understanding wny you think Tesla would increase the MSRP if/when the credit is introduced. I'm not being snide, I would just like to hear your thoughts.


Past history. As the previous Fed Tax credit reduced, so did the MSRP of Tesla vehicles. So all data point to Tesla raising prices to match the credits. I wouldn't be surprised if all mfgrs selling in the USA did the same.

( Garsh beat me by a fraction of a "moment"!! )


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## GDN (Oct 30, 2017)

They definitely reduced it in the past as it went away, I wouldn't put it past Elon/Tesla to try again, but I think if they have the kind of increase anywhere related to the amount of a new tax credit, I figure they would face a public lynching and Federal investigations.


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## mrau (Nov 22, 2018)

Price is often based on supply & demand. If the tax credit begins again for Tesla, the demand will go up; hence the car price will rise. I doubt it will rise as much as the tax credit amount.

When the tax credit ended for Tesla the demand dropped (most likely because people accelerated their car purchase to qualify for the credit). That is why Tesla lowered their price so they could maintain the same sales rate.

Recently the price of a new Tesla has steadily risen, since current demand is much greater than their supply. 

We should know by December if the tax credit gets enacted by Congress.


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## shareef777 (Mar 10, 2019)

M3Maven said:


> Thanks to everyone for all the updates on the federal tax credit. I have an M3 on order that was scheduled for September delivery. I just had the order put on hold until December to see if anything happens with Congress. If necessary, I will further delay it until 1/1/22 if that becomes the effective date. If it passes, I think you will see a a serious drop in Tesla orders for the M3.


The government won't announce anything until the credit is effective. You won't hear them say, "to help consumers buy EVs, we're enacting a credit, but don't buy till next year".

Tesla buyers are in a unique situation in that Tesla has sold every vehicle they've made (and are going to make this year). So Tesla won't say much if you request your order to be pushed back. But should Tesla catch up to the order queue before the credit is announced, you better believe they'll force your hand to accept delivery.


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## Bigriver (Jan 26, 2018)

shareef777 said:


> The government won't announce anything until the credit is effective.


We will certainly be able to see what is in the legislation before it is passed. I have seen 3 forms of an effective date:

Specific date, such as the May 24, 2021 that was what passed the senate finance committee. My understanding is that this was very unusual, and I see no chance of them going back to this specific date.
An end of the year/beginning of the year specific date.
Effective as soon as legislation becomes law.
It may also be relevant to point out that there is both a modification of the existing $7500 credit and new credits being considered. It is possible a modification could have a different effective date than a new credit.


shareef777 said:


> But should Tesla catch up to the order queue before the credit is announced, you better believe they'll force your hand to accept delivery.


Towards the end of 2020 as model X/S rumors started to fly, there were a number of people who had orders who chose to delay. It wasn't a problem. I don't think the order agreement has a specific timing defined. Actually, at least from Tesla's end it has infinite wiggle room: "The estimated delivery date of your Vehicle, if provided, is only an estimate as we do not guarantee when your Vehicle will actually be delivered. Your actual delivery date is dependent on many factors, including your Vehicle's configuration and manufacturing availability."

I really believe that Tesla would work with the situation if people were waiting for an effective date of a tax credit…. Send more inventory out of the US, offer some discount to take delivery now, or something. In 2018 they very carefully managed hitting the 200,000 US sales threshold to maximize the credit.


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## FRC (Aug 4, 2018)

Bigriver said:


> In 2018 they very carefully managed hitting the 200,000 US sales threshold to maximize the credit.


Yes they did. They did their best to hit the critical sales numbers shortly AFTER quarter's end so that the higher credit amount would last another 3 months. Then when the credit was reduced at quarter's end, they reduced MSRP by a similar amount. It didn't much matter how much credit we earned, our net cost remained the same. And if they can figure a way to achieve the same result with a new credit; you bet your sweet bippy they will!


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## shareef777 (Mar 10, 2019)

My only thought on Tesla trying to take the credit is that it'd leave them in a pretty bad PR situation. Lowering the prices to counter-act decreasing credits can easily be attributed to the lower cost of manufacturing (we all know better). Increasing the price by $7500 (or whatever the credit will be) just won't sit well with many. I'm sure they'll go up, but not the entire credit amount.


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## FRC (Aug 4, 2018)

shareef777 said:


> My only thought on Tesla trying to take the credit is that it'd leave them in a pretty bad PR situation. Lowering the prices to counter-act decreasing credits can easily be attributed to the lower cost of manufacturing (we all know better). Increasing the price by $7500 (or whatever the credit will be) just won't sit well with many. I'm sure they'll go up, but not the entire credit amount.


I agree, and that exactly why I said above that Tesla will reap the benefit of any new credit IF they can figure out a way!


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## garsh (Apr 4, 2016)

shareef777 said:


> I'm sure they'll go up, but not the entire credit amount.


That's a reasonable expectation. When the credit dropped from $7500 to $3750, Tesla only dropped MSRP by $2000.


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## Bigriver (Jan 26, 2018)

I updated the first post with the news of what is in the House’s current version, as of Sept 11.


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## evdude88 (Aug 15, 2021)

The Democrats have proposed an updated electric car incentive program at the federal level.

The program would remove the limit on the number of vehicles and replace it with a timeline, introduce a higher payout up to $12,500 and make it point-of-sale. There is also a new restriction that would put Tesla at a $4,500 disadvantage.

The current program has some flaws. The main one is that it caps the $7,500 tax credit to 200,000 electric vehicles per manufacturer.

This puts automakers who were early proponents of electric vehicles, like Tesla and GM, at a disadvantage.

The biggest issue for Tesla though is that the full rebate only applies to Union made vehicles. As of today Tesla's employees are not part of a Union and are therefore excluded from an additional $4,500 rebate.

Here are the main changes of the latest bill:


Remove the 200,000 vehicles per manufacturer cap
Keep the $7,500 incentive for new electric cars for 5 years
Make the $7,500 incentive a point-of-sale discount instead of tax credit
EVs with battery pack smaller than 40 kWh are limited to a $4,000 incentive

Add an additional $4,500 for EV assembled at union factories. This is the critical part that should be of interest to potential Tesla customers.
Add another $500 for EVs using battery packs with 50% of components (including cells) are made in the US
After the first 5 years, the $7,500 becomes only for US-made electric vehicles and it applies for another 5 years.
They are introduce price limits on the EVs eligible for the incentives:
Sedans under $55,000
SUVs under $69,000
Pickup trucks under $74,000
Vans under $54,000

They are also introducing caps on income to get access to the incentives, but they are fairly high at an adjusted gross income of up to $400,000 for individuals and up to $800,000 for joint filers.
As usual, these terms could change as the bill goes through the legislative process

Source: https://wegoelectric.net/democrats-...r-rebate-tesla-customers-could-get-4500-less/


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## Yanquetino (May 1, 2016)

evdude88 said:


> The biggest issue for Tesla though is that the full rebate only applies to Union made vehicles.


Easy fix that I have recommended to Tesla for several years now: allow your employees to form their *own* union, and put labor reps on the board -like is the law in many EU nations. The UAW should *not* have a monopoly on collective bargaining for automotive workers!


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## DocScott (Mar 6, 2019)

I haven't looked up the history of Tesla price changes, but I'm certain they didn't drop the sticker price by anywhere near the full amount of the tax credit phase out for less expensive models. In 2018, the RWD M3 with no other options was $44k. I know that configuration was discontinued, but if prices dropped by $7500 when the tax credits phased out, then Tesla would have been selling something like the LR for just under $37k, and we know that never happened. 

It may have been different for their higher-priced vehicles (Model 3 performance, Model S and X) where their margins are higher.


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## SoFlaModel3 (Apr 15, 2017)

Here is my big question — if this goes through is it retroactive or only cars purchased from the effective date forward.


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## Bigriver (Jan 26, 2018)

SoFlaModel3 said:


> Here is my big question - if this goes through is it retroactive or only cars purchased from the effective date forward.


That's a great question. I really don't know but as they are currently doing this in the context of the budget bill, I would put my bets on either Oct 1, 2021 (beginning of federal fiscal year) or Jan 1, 2022 implementation.


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## cardwookie (Aug 9, 2021)

Biden is announcing an agreement on a framework today at 11:30 Eastern which will include:

"Expanded tax credits for 10 years for utility and residential clean energy, including electric vehicles."

President Biden will announce a framework for his social and climate spending bill - here's what's in it


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## shareef777 (Mar 10, 2019)

cardwookie said:


> Biden is announcing an agreement on a framework today at 11:30 Eastern which will include:
> 
> "Expanded tax credits for 10 years for utility and residential clean energy, including electric vehicles."
> 
> President Biden will announce a framework for his social and climate spending bill - here's what's in it


Announcing and passing are two completely different things.


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## Klaus-rf (Mar 6, 2019)

shareef777 said:


> Announcing and passing are two completely different things.


While the announcing generally generally happens first.

So Two Weeks!


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## Bigriver (Jan 26, 2018)

Here is the latest as of October 28, 2021. There are very few changes from the Sept 10 version. The buzz I hear is that they think they have the votes to pass this. For Tesla this would mean an $8000 credit.

https://rules.house.gov/sites/democrats.rules.house.gov/files/BILLS-117HR5376RH-RCP117-17.pdf ("Greening the Fleet" starts on p. 1240.)

Key elements:

Effective Jan 1, 2022

components:
$4000 base amount (battery at least 10 kWh)
$3500 battery of at least 40 kWh
$4500 "domestic assembly" (see more below)
$500 "domestic content" (battery assembled in U.S.)

Price Limits:
$55,000 sedans
$64,000 vans
$69,000 SUV
$74,000 pickup trucks

AGI limits:
$800,000 married
$600,000 head of household
$400,000 single

Repeal of previous EV credit

Appears to have provisions for point of sale applicability, which also means one would not have to have a tax liability greater than the credit to get the credit.

The "domestic assembly" is the one tied to Unions. Here is a screen shot of how they are defining that.


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## GDN (Oct 30, 2017)

So now $4500 is tied to a Union?


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## Bigriver (Jan 26, 2018)

GDN said:


> So now $4500 is tied to a Union?


Yes


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## mrwug (Aug 4, 2021)

Klaus-rf said:


> While the announcing generally generally happens first.
> 
> So Two Weeks!


Are we talking calendar time or Elon time?


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## Klaus-rf (Mar 6, 2019)

mrwug said:


> Are we talking calendar time or Elon time?


Absolutely!


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## slacker775 (May 30, 2018)

Would the Y count as an ‘SUV’ or would that still fall as a sedan? I suppose if Tesla keeps FSD price parity pre and post purchase, you just add that after to help get the right price point?


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## Bigriver (Jan 26, 2018)

slacker775 said:


> Would the Y count as an 'SUV' or would that still fall as a sedan? I suppose if Tesla keeps FSD price parity pre and post purchase, you just add that after to help get the right price point?


The legislation says that vehicle classifications shall use "criteria similar to that employed by the Environmental Protection Agency and the Department of Energy to determine size and class of vehicles."

EPA currently lists the model Y as a small SUV.

As an aside, I just noticed that "sedan" is no longer mentioned in this legislation draft, rather the category of "other" (not van, SUV or truck) has a price limit of $55k. And price is "manufacturer's suggested retail price."

I have assumed that Tesla will flex as much as possible to help the consumer on this, with things like removing FSD from an order and letting it be purchased afterwards. Of course that is always an option now, just don't know whether they will try to raise FSD prices along with this.


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## jsmay311 (Oct 2, 2017)

Bigriver said:


> Here is the latest as of October 28, 2021. There are very few changes from the Sept 10 version. The buzz I hear is that they think they have the votes to pass this. For Tesla this would mean an $8000 credit.
> 
> https://rules.house.gov/sites/democrats.rules.house.gov/files/BILLS-117HR5376RH-RCP117-17.pdf ("Greening the Fleet" starts on p. 1240.)
> 
> ...


*Wonderful *summary.

I'll just add that I _think_ the point-of-sale credit doesn't go into effect until 2023.

This interpretation is based on the language on page 1260, where it says: "The amendments made by subsection (b) shall apply to vehicles acquired after December 31, 2022." 
And I believe subsection (b) starts on line 19, page 1253, titled "TRANSFER OF CREDIT", which is where transfer of the credit to the selling dealer is described. 
Not 100% sure tho. The language and formatting of these bills is hard to decipher.


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## M3OC Rules (Nov 18, 2016)

Bigriver said:


> Here is the latest as of October 28, 2021. There are very few changes from the Sept 10 version. The buzz I hear is that they think they have the votes to pass this. For Tesla this would mean an $8000 credit.
> 
> https://rules.house.gov/sites/democrats.rules.house.gov/files/BILLS-117HR5376RH-RCP117-17.pdf ("Greening the Fleet" starts on p. 1240.)
> 
> ...


So they conveniently set the threshold so that if you got a Tri-motor Cybertruck with FSD you just miss the cutoff?!?!? Tesla will probably let you not get FSD to fall under the cutoff and then take the $3k difference in FSD pricing and raise the truck price by $4500k so you ultimately get $500. Just enough so that you do it and Tesla gets the $7500.


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## Bigriver (Jan 26, 2018)

jsmay311 said:


> I'll just add that I _think_ the point-of-sale credit doesn't go into effect until 2023


That would make sense. It will take awhile to get the point of sale rebate admin in place. I agree that part of the text is not very straightforward.


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## mrwug (Aug 4, 2021)

slacker775 said:


> Would the Y count as an 'SUV' or would that still fall as a sedan? I suppose if Tesla keeps FSD price parity pre and post purchase, you just add that after to help get the right price point?


SUV


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## shareef777 (Mar 10, 2019)

M3OC Rules said:


> So they conveniently set the threshold so that if you got a Tri-motor Cybertruck with FSD you just miss the cutoff?!?!? Tesla will probably let you not get FSD to fall under the cutoff and then take the $3k difference in FSD pricing and raise the truck price by $4500k so you ultimately get $500. Just enough so that you do it and Tesla gets the $7500.


That's assuming the CT prices stay the same. Considering our Y we ordered 5 months ago shot up in price by $5.5k, I'd imagine the trimotor CT WITHOUT FSD will be well north of $74k.


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## M3OC Rules (Nov 18, 2016)

shareef777 said:


> That's assuming the CT prices stay the same. Considering our Y we ordered 5 months ago shot up in price by $5.5k, I'd imagine the trimotor CT WITHOUT FSD will be well north of $74k.


In the past they have honored the reservation pricing unless you made changes. The agreement doesn't hold them to that though. Be interesting.


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## shareef777 (Mar 10, 2019)

M3OC Rules said:


> In the past they have honored the reservation pricing unless you made changes. The agreement doesn't hold them to that though. Be interesting.


One can hope, but inflation and costs of material have skyrocketed so much since CT reservations were placed that I just don't see them remaining. Even competitors prices are considerably higher (400mi Rivian is almost $80k).


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## iChris93 (Feb 3, 2017)

shareef777 said:


> Even competitors prices are considerably higher (400mi Rivian is almost $80k).


That was true at time of announcement too.


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## FRC (Aug 4, 2018)

M3OC Rules said:


> In the past they have honored the reservation pricing unless you made changes. The agreement doesn't hold them to that though. Be interesting.


I thought they honored pricing at configuration, not necessarily at reservation.


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## M3OC Rules (Nov 18, 2016)

FRC said:


> I thought they honored pricing at configuration, not necessarily at reservation.


When I selected what motors I wanted and FSD and given prices for those, wasn't I configuring?


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## shareef777 (Mar 10, 2019)

FRC said:


> I thought they honored pricing at configuration, not necessarily at reservation.


I configured mine already! 3 motors, 500miles, 0-60 in 2.9 for $70k

Just give me that and we're good 😂


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## M3OC Rules (Nov 18, 2016)

Tesla has gone through some great lengths to honor pricing in similar situations where they really don't want to. They have also done goofy things to fit into government incentives. I took taking down the prices on the website as they don't want to honor those prices going forward but not necessarily they wouldn't honor the earlier reservations. But in the past sometimes they have told people before they made a change like that to let them lock in before the change which they didn't do. Dunno what they are going to do.


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## FRC (Aug 4, 2018)

M3OC Rules said:


> When I selected what motors I wanted and FSD and given prices for those, wasn't I configuring?


Since I'm not personally interested in the CT, I'm not sure at what point Tesla would consider prices locked in. But my guess is that if you can back out so can they. If, by the time production actually happens, Tesla can no longer achieve the manufacturing costs they expected; I'll bet my bottom dollar they'll find a way to weasel out of the estimated pricing.


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## M3OC Rules (Nov 18, 2016)

FRC said:


> Since I'm not personally interested in the CT, I'm not sure at what point Tesla would consider prices locked in. But my guess is that if you can back out so can they. If, by the time production actually happens, Tesla can no longer achieve the manufacturing costs they expected; I'll bet my bottom dollar they'll find a way to weasel out of the estimated pricing.


They can absolutely change pricing. But if $75k is the limit they will find a way to weasel money from the government as well.


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## Bigriver (Jan 26, 2018)

DocScott said:


> I haven't looked up the history of Tesla price changes,


I decided to do this… using the Wayback Machine internet archives, I went back and configured my car (model 3 LR AWD) in the Tesla design studio over the past 3 years. These are just snapshots in time, but nevertheless, I thought it was interesting:


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## M3OC Rules (Nov 18, 2016)

Bigriver said:


> I decided to do this… using the Wayback Machine internet archives, I went back and configured my car (model 3 LR AWD) in the Tesla design studio over the past 3 years. These are just snapshots in time, but nevertheless, I thought it was interesting:
> 
> View attachment 40379


Wow! Cool. I didn't know you could configure using the Wayback Machine. I think the tax credit may increase the number of EV's sold because people think they are getting a deal but my guess is it doesn't reduce the prices and the vast majority of the money goes to the manufacturers. It's indirect but what is the incentive of the manufacturers to offer prices below market value after incentives?


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## GDN (Oct 30, 2017)

I'm hoping and believing they will honor at least base prices, but expect that anything they've added will come at a premium. Any kind of solar panel tonneau cover, rear steering, I'm not sure what else, upgraded interior but it will all come at a premium. The rear steering is one of the last options I'd ever pay for - having driven a pickup most of my life I can life without it. It'll add a good deal of complexity to the rear axel too. Maybe not as much with an EV as with a traditional axel, but this has been tried before and I don't need any more party tricks.


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## shareef777 (Mar 10, 2019)

Bigriver said:


> I decided to do this… using the Wayback Machine internet archives, I went back and configured my car (model 3 LR AWD) in the Tesla design studio over the past 3 years. These are just snapshots in time, but nevertheless, I thought it was interesting:
> 
> View attachment 40379


Woohoo, bought my 3 March2019!


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## shareef777 (Mar 10, 2019)

shareef777 said:


> My only thought on Tesla trying to take the credit is that it'd leave them in a pretty bad PR situation. Lowering the prices to counter-act decreasing credits can easily be attributed to the lower cost of manufacturing (we all know better). Increasing the price by $7500 (or whatever the credit will be) just won't sit well with many. I'm sure they'll go up, but not the entire credit amount.


Well, our Y has officially increased by $7500 since we got it so long ago (5 months 😳).

Now, what're the odds this is because of the incoming tax credit!?


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## Gary(SF) (Oct 13, 2021)

I've lost track of where we stand with new EV tax credits. I have an M3LR coming in December and wonder if I should consider delaying delivery to January.


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## shareef777 (Mar 10, 2019)

Gary(SF) said:


> I've lost track of where we stand with new EV tax credits. I have an M3LR coming in December and wonder if I should consider delaying delivery to January.


At this point I would, as the BBB plan is poised for release soon. Issue is if Tesla would let you. They'll likely force everyone to either take their order or cancel it (probably even refund the order fee) so that they can raise the prices further before the new year starts to take advantage of the credit.


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## slacker775 (May 30, 2018)

The BBB bill just passed the House, but will likely get changed in various ways if it gets through the Senate. Then it goes back to the House to deal with those changes and who knows what other changes may come from that. But ultimately, it's not impossible that it passes by the end of the year which could have a 1/1/22 effective date for the EV credit. I for one hope they address the $4500 credit for union-built vehicles in some way. Perhaps reduce it and give a little extra goose to the non-union built but I'm sure that won't happen.


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## SoFlaModel3 (Apr 15, 2017)

Gary(SF) said:


> I've lost track of where we stand with new EV tax credits. I have an M3LR coming in December and wonder if I should consider delaying delivery to January.


My delivery is 11/27. Right now planning on keeping that date.



shareef777 said:


> At this point I would, as the BBB plan is poised for release soon. Issue is if Tesla would let you. They'll likely force everyone to either take their order or cancel it (probably even refund the order fee) so that they can raise the prices further before the new year starts to take advantage of the credit.


Tesla can't force you to take the car. You can always delay. You can even show up to delivery and reject the car. Your order remains with the pricing in tact. Then if the credit hits and Tesla increases prices even more you're still locked in. If you do cancel, you lose the $250 order fee.


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## FRC (Aug 4, 2018)

SoFlaModel3 said:


> Tesla can't force you to take the car.


This is certainly true. Not so sure that Tesla has to allow you to delay without cause, or that they have to agree with a refusal to accept delivery. In both of those cases they could cancel your order(likely refunding the order fee) and put you at the back of the line and subject to current pricing structure.


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## SoFlaModel3 (Apr 15, 2017)

FRC said:


> This is certainly true. Not so sure that Tesla has to allow you to delay without cause, or that they have to agree with a refusal to accept delivery. In both of those cases they could cancel your order(likely refunding the order fee) and put you at the back of the line and subject to current pricing structure.


You have a great point. They could do anything short of forcing you to complete the transaction. Generally speaking throughout their history they have allowed people to delay cars and reject delivery and just shuffle those cars to someone else in line.


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## shareef777 (Mar 10, 2019)

SoFlaModel3 said:


> Tesla can't force you to take the car. You can always delay. You can even show up to delivery and reject the car. Your order remains with the pricing in tact. Then if the credit hits and Tesla increases prices even more you're still locked in. If you do cancel, you lose the $250 order fee.


Tesla doesn't need to force anything considering they're backordered till mid-2022 for most cars. What they can do is sell your car to someone else if you don't want it and cancel your order altogether (refunding the order fee) and forcing you to either A.) get back in the very long line and paying the higher cost or B.) buying an inferior product from someone else.

Some people will look at that credit and either know they don't qualify or not care for it so cars will still move off the shelves this year. Tesla is essentially aiming the the remaining inventory of 2021 towards that customer base. Everyone else that wants the credit, get in the very long line waiting for you in 2022.


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## slacker775 (May 30, 2018)

Per the order agreement, they can cancel your order and keep the order fee to cover their ‘processing and handling’. Would they? Different story. I would suspect they wouldn’t bother cancelling it because then you might wander off to a different vendor. It’s not like they would be stuck with the car.


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## shareef777 (Mar 10, 2019)

slacker775 said:


> Per the order agreement, they can cancel your order and keep the order fee to cover their 'processing and handling'. Would they? Different story. I would suspect they wouldn't bother cancelling it because then you might wander off to a different vendor. It's not like they would be stuck with the car.


Per the same agreement, they have to provide a car without defects. So the buyer is at an advantage considering you can find practically any minor issue and consider it a defect. Tesla doesn't care as they'd rather let you off for the $250 and not only sell your car to another buyer, but force people into next year where they'll continue to mark up the vehicles (essentially getting more of that sweet sweet tax credit for themselves).

Relevant part of the agreement:
Limitation of Liability. We are not liable for any incidental, special or consequential damages arising out of this Agreement. Your sole and exclusive remedy under this Agreement will be limited to reimbursement of your Order Fee, Order Deposit and Transportation Fee.


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## Gary(SF) (Oct 13, 2021)

FRC said:


> This is certainly true. Not so sure that Tesla has to allow you to delay without cause, or that they have to agree with a refusal to accept delivery. In both of those cases they could cancel your order(likely refunding the order fee) and put you at the back of the line and subject to current pricing structure.


I asked Tesla support folks (the text contact they supply you with) and they said it's easy to put the delivery date on hold to 1/1/22, the car will be produced on the normal pre-hold schedule, and delivered in January, or earlier if it looks like the credit will not go through by 1/1 and I decide to take the car immediately after production.


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## Bigriver (Jan 26, 2018)

Gary(SF) said:


> I've lost track of where we stand with new EV tax credits. I have an M3LR coming in December and wonder if I should consider delaying delivery to January.


I have been updating the first post with developments of the tax credit as this has unfolded. I have not been able to find any links claiming to be the version that the house approved today. The latest I'm aware of is a Nov 3 version, which is the last update to post #1. We will see how the Senate modifies it.


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## iChris93 (Feb 3, 2017)

slacker775 said:


> I for one hope they address the $4500 credit for union-built vehicles in some way.


Joe Manchin opposes it https://thehill.com/policy/energy-e...-to-tax-credit-for-union-made-evs-in-spending


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## SoFlaModel3 (Apr 15, 2017)

shareef777 said:


> Tesla doesn't need to force anything considering they're backordered till mid-2022 for most cars. What they can do is sell your car to someone else if you don't want it and cancel your order altogether (refunding the order fee) and forcing you to either A.) get back in the very long line and paying the higher cost or B.) buying an inferior product from someone else.
> 
> Some people will look at that credit and either know they don't qualify or not care for it so cars will still move off the shelves this year. Tesla is essentially aiming the the remaining inventory of 2021 towards that customer base. Everyone else that wants the credit, get in the very long line waiting for you in 2022.


Model 3 Long Range (car in question) for both myself and the individual I replied to has ~2-3 week backlog right now.


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## shareef777 (Mar 10, 2019)

SoFlaModel3 said:


> Model 3 Long Range (car in question) for both myself and the individual I replied to has ~2-3 week backlog right now.


Interestingly Tesla no longer shows delivery estimates.

Also, when did the 1 year premium connectivity become 30 days?


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## slacker775 (May 30, 2018)

shareef777 said:


> Per the same agreement, they have to provide a car without defects. So the buyer is at an advantage considering you can find practically any minor issue and consider it a defect. Tesla doesn't care as they'd rather let you off for the $250 and not only sell your car to another buyer, but force people into next year where they'll continue to mark up the vehicles (essentially getting more of that sweet sweet tax credit for themselves).
> 
> Relevant part of the agreement:
> Limitation of Liability. We are not liable for any incidental, special or consequential damages arising out of this Agreement. Your sole and exclusive remedy under this Agreement will be limited to reimbursement of your Order Fee, Order Deposit and Transportation Fee.


IANAL but I have spent more time parsing legalese than I would ever like and can confidently state 'damages' in this clause isn't panel gaps or paint chips. At least not in a direct fashion. It's basically if everything goes sideways, the best you are gonna do is get your initial money back. You aren't going to get extra $$ for emotional distress or whatever other stuff you can conjure up.

They can not 'force' a vehicle on you, but if you won't accept the vehicle and it's just some real minor thing, they can decide you are just to difficult to deal with and cancel the deal. I suspect they reserve that ability for folks that are just impossible to please.


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## Bigriver (Jan 26, 2018)

shareef777 said:


> Interestingly Tesla no longer shows delivery estimates.
> 
> Also, when did the 1 year premium connectivity become 30 days?


30 days has always been the premium connectivity trial for standard range, then they shortened it from 1 year to 30 days for long range some time within past 2 months.

I don't know why you're not seeing delivery estimates…. Here is what I just got:


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## shareef777 (Mar 10, 2019)

slacker775 said:


> IANAL but I have spent more time parsing legalese than I would ever like and can confidently state 'damages' in this clause isn't panel gaps or paint chips. At least not in a direct fashion. It's basically if everything goes sideways, the best you are gonna do is get your initial money back. You aren't going to get extra $$ for emotional distress or whatever other stuff you can conjure up.
> 
> They can not 'force' a vehicle on you, but if you won't accept the vehicle and it's just some real minor thing, they can decide you are just to difficult to deal with and cancel the deal. I suspect they reserve that ability for folks that are just impossible to please.


Yeah, absolutely agreed no one is entitled to anything more then the order fee if they don't accept the vehicle for whatever reason (or in the sense you'd just make up a reason). Just meant that the order fee is refundable.


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## shareef777 (Mar 10, 2019)

Bigriver said:


> 30 days has always been the premium connectivity trial for standard range, then they shortened it from 1 year to 30 days for long range some time within past 2 months.
> 
> I don't know why you're not seeing delivery estimates…. Here is what I just got:
> View attachment 40512
> View attachment 40513


It's showing now, could have been a cached bug. Either way, outside the perf, it's 2022.


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## SoFlaModel3 (Apr 15, 2017)

shareef777 said:


> Interestingly Tesla no longer shows delivery estimates.
> 
> Also, when did the 1 year premium connectivity become 30 days?


Hmm… yeah Model 3 Long Range just slipped to January. Guess that takes 2-3 weeks up to 5-9 weeks suddenly. My bet is that this has something to do with timing the tax credit now.

As for premium connectivity, it's a very recent thing that they expanded the downgraded term beyond just the standard range vehicle.


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## Bigriver (Jan 26, 2018)

This says that Tesla set Dec 2 as a deadline for people who have been delaying delivery of their vehicle for at least 6 months…. Move forward to take delivery of next car offered to you or have your order cancelled. Not clear how the 6 months is counted… from time order was placed or when someone placed a hold on their order, or some other demarcation.
https://electrek.co/2021/11/24/tesla-tsla-sends-ultimatum-buyers-delaying-deliveries/


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## slacker775 (May 30, 2018)

Bigriver said:


> This says that Tesla set Dec 2 as a deadline for people who have been delaying delivery of their vehicle for at least 6 months…. Move forward to take delivery of next car offered to you or have your order cancelled. Not clear how the 6 months is counted… from time order was placed or when someone placed a hold on their order, or some other demarcation.
> https://electrek.co/2021/11/24/tesla-tsla-sends-ultimatum-buyers-delaying-deliveries/


Ultimately, it could be pretty close to whatever Tesla wants. Iirc, the order agreement gives you like 30 days. They can't have people placing an order in April, watch the price go up 8k or more and keep pushing out and then get the potential EV credit essentially saving 16k.


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## Bigriver (Jan 26, 2018)

So no EV tax credit getting passed before end of 2021.

https://thehill.com/homenews/senate...r-punting-build-back-better-voting-rights?amp
And here is Gary Black's take:


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## SoFlaModel3 (Apr 15, 2017)

Glad I didn’t wait to swap out of my car for a new one


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## sonoswen (Sep 13, 2021)

Manchin will probably want the EV credit sent to the scrap pile.


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## RickO2018 (Mar 13, 2018)

sonoswen said:


> Manchin will probably want the EV credit sent to the scrap pile.


For sure! He wants to bring back his state's oil shale industry! To hell with the environment and infrastructure.


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## sonoswen (Sep 13, 2021)

RickO2018 said:


> For sure! He wants to bring back his state's oil shale industry! To hell with the environment and infrastructure.


Joe Manchin sure dumped a huge lump of West Virginia coal in our stockings this Christmas didn't he


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## Mr. Spacely (Feb 28, 2019)

I tend to agree with Musk that a tax break is not necessary anymore. (I only got the half credit of $3,750.) Electric cars have to be competitive with ICE cars and stand on their own. Go configure a new Model Y and look at the 6 month wait. In fact due to huge demand and limited production it is hard to get an electric car from any manufacturer right now...


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## Ken Voss (Feb 2, 2017)

West virginia is a big coal state, I understand Manchin wants to make coal great again by introducing coal fired cars. He plans to have a pile of coal along the interstate highway system. Who wants to get on the list for a coal car?


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## iChris93 (Feb 3, 2017)

Ken Voss said:


> West virginia is a big coal state, I understand Manchin wants to make coal great again by introducing coal fired cars. He plans to have a pile of coal along the interstate highway system. Who wants to get on the list for a coal car?


EVs are the only vehicles that can run off coal!


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## sonoswen (Sep 13, 2021)

Manchin needs a COALINOSCOPY.


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## garsh (Apr 4, 2016)

iChris93 said:


> EVs are the only vehicles that can run off coal!




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/882005931793543169


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## sonoswen (Sep 13, 2021)

Electric producer in Oregon we have this. We also have a loss of Salmon due to its antiquarian fish ladder and trucking of fish. "It's always somthing" Rosanne Rosanna Dana


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## TrevP (Oct 20, 2015)

sonoswen said:


> Electric producer in Oregon we have this. We also have a loss of Salmon due to its antiquarian fish ladder and trucking of fish. "It's always somthing" Rosanne Rosanna Dana
> View attachment 40755


You should see the hydroelectric output of Quebec... 🤯


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## MelindaV (Apr 2, 2016)

sonoswen said:


> Electric producer in Oregon we have this. We also have a loss of Salmon due to its antiquarian fish ladder and trucking of fish. "It's always somthing" Rosanne Rosanna Dana
> View attachment 40755


and with a car


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