# Autopilot and FSD discussion



## Garlan Garner (May 24, 2016)

FrancoisP said:


> FSD is very resilient as per the following YouTube video:


Indeed.

FSD's current version does not need all of the cameras and sensors.


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## Needsdecaf (Dec 27, 2018)

Mike said:


> I wonder if the cameras revert back to a rough (but usable) calibration every time there is a software update. The process would be transparent to the operator.
> In other news, with 35.5, I have had the autopilot lock onto a slower vehicle to my right (on ramp/merge lane traffic) twice in the two highway driving days I have used it. It's been a while since I've had to worry about the autopilot locking up on slower traffic in the lane to my right.


I think they do.

Over the last two years, I've consistently seen that every time a new software comes out, people report that their cars AP behavior is different. I say different because some say it's worse, and others say it's better. It then seems as if it generally reverts slowly back to normal, or even sometimes doesn't improve at all until the next software update. I wonder if a camera calibration with each software update wouldn't be a bad idea? Or maybe it would be.

I've also noticed with this latest software, my car seems to be much more sensitive to passing vehicles / objects with significant overtaking speeds. There is a toll booth I go through every day I commute to work. Normally I zoom right through. Now I notice that the car is really slowing down if the cars one lane over are backed up and going a lot slower than I am. The car applies quite a bit of stopping power.


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## ibgeek (Aug 26, 2019)

Needsdecaf said:


> I think they do.
> 
> Over the last two years, I've consistently seen that every time a new software comes out, people report that their cars AP behavior is different. I say different because some say it's worse, and others say it's better. It then seems as if it generally reverts slowly back to normal, or even sometimes doesn't improve at all until the next software update. I wonder if a camera calibration with each software update wouldn't be a bad idea? Or maybe it would be.
> 
> I've also noticed with this latest software, my car seems to be much more sensitive to passing vehicles / objects with significant overtaking speeds. There is a toll booth I go through every day I commute to work. Normally I zoom right through. Now I notice that the car is really slowing down if the cars one lane over are backed up and going a lot slower than I am. The car applies quite a bit of stopping power.


I got a chance to ask about that today. The answer is yes the cameras do re-calibrate with some updates. It depends on what the update is addressing. They recommended running the calibration but warned that the quality of the roads you calibrate on determines the time it takes to go from an acceptable minimum calibration to a full high resolution calibration. More traffic and more lanes equal faster calibration. There has been discussion of adding the ability to see the calibration state of each camera but I was told this was unlikely. Instead they are working on ways to optimize the calibration process so that it gives more consistent results across varying road and traffic conditions.

you are correct about AP being more sensitive to it's surroundings, I go through a toll booth as well and it was a bit of a shock to say the least when the behavior changed. That said the car does do a better job of biasing away from cars or trucks that are leaning in to your lane.

Something else that I wanted to point out regarding breaking issues and the right lane on a freeway or other motor way with exits on AP. If you spend a lot of time in the slow lane (right lane) of a freeway, you are going to notice the car will slow down quite a bit before each exit. I understand the thinking behind this but wish it could be bypassed like you can when in adjacent lane mode. Moving out of that lane if possible will greatly improve your driving experience.


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## francoisp (Sep 28, 2018)

Garlan Garner said:


> Indeed.
> 
> FSD's current version does not need all of the cameras and sensors.


It depends on the Autopilot feature in question. Without the side cameras Autosteer will work but Auto change lane won't. I haven't tried Summon but I would bet it won't work either.


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## M3OC Rules (Nov 18, 2016)

FrancoisP said:


> It depends on the Autopilot feature in question. Without the side cameras Autosteer will work but Auto change lane won't. I haven't tried Summon but I would bet it won't work either.


I think he's referring to FSD beta not Autopilot. If you watch the video he linked to its pretty resilient. It will not work without the front radar but otherwise is surprising how well it does with limited sensors. I'm not sure if this is necessarily a good test because Tesla will have to decide at some point when safety has been compromised and it needs to pull over or stop. They probably aren't worried about that yet and there is no sign of that being implemented. But it does show that there is hope.


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## francoisp (Sep 28, 2018)

M3OC Rules said:


> I think he's referring to FSD beta not Autopilot. If you watch the video he linked to its pretty resilient. It will not work without the front radar but otherwise is surprising how well it does with limited sensors. I'm not sure if this is necessarily a good test because Tesla will have to decide at some point when safety has been compromised and it needs to pull over or stop. They probably aren't worried about that yet and there is no sign of that being implemented. But it does show that there is hope.


I agree there's a big difference between FSD and Autopilot. I repeated some of the tests with Autopilot with the exception of blocking the radar and it's also pretty resilient.


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## Mike (Apr 4, 2016)

M3OC Rules said:


> I think he's referring to FSD beta not Autopilot. If you watch the video he linked to its pretty resilient. It will not work without the front radar but otherwise is surprising how well it does with limited sensors. I'm not sure if this is necessarily a good test because Tesla will have to decide at some point when safety has been compromised and it needs to pull over or stop. They probably aren't worried about that yet and there is no sign of that being implemented. But it does show that there is hope.


I'll be happy when, at some future date, the vision software will be developed enough that the radar (for high speed freeway use) will not be actively inputting into a solution.


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## ibgeek (Aug 26, 2019)

Mike said:


> I'll be happy when, at some future date, the vision software will be developed enough that the radar (for high speed freeway use) will not be actively inputting into a solution.


I think the forward radar will always be used. In fact Tesla just discussed a new longer range one that they will likely switch to at some point. It's primary purpose is to look under the car in front of you at the car in front of that.
Then try to predict how the car in front of you is going to be affected by the car ahead of it. It's actually pretty cool how it does this but it's not always right... yet.


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## M3OC Rules (Nov 18, 2016)

There are different schools of thought on redundant sensors. They can be used in a fusion manner or as Mobileye touts as a completely independent path. Also, I heard one competitor say "ya you can do all vision but why would you not use everything you have to make it more reliable." For that reason, I agree I don't think there is a reason to get rid of the radar. But some people think that if the radar gets blocked by snow or something that FSD can't function and therefore will never work in winter climates. That may not always be true although it is for now of non-FSD Beta and FSD beta.

Following this line of thought at some point lidar will get cheap enough to include and it could make sense to use to reach higher levels of safety by Tesla even if they achieve level 4/5 with the current sensors. If Mobileye's timeline of 2025 holds then there could be direct competition with personal cars using lidar.


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## francoisp (Sep 28, 2018)

M3OC Rules said:


> There are different schools of thought on redundant sensors. They can be used in a fusion manner or as Mobileye touts as a completely independent path. Also, I heard one competitor say "ya you can do all vision but why would you not use everything you have to make it more reliable." For that reason, I agree I don't think there is a reason to get rid of the radar. But some people think that if the radar gets blocked by snow or something that FSD can't function and therefore will never work in winter climates. That may not always be true although it is for now of non-FSD Beta and FSD beta.
> 
> Following this line of thought at some point lidar will get cheap enough to include and it could make sense to use to reach higher levels of safety by Tesla even if they achieve level 4/5 with the current sensors. If Mobileye's timeline of 2025 holds then there could be direct competition with personal cars using lidar.


Musk's thinking is that humans don't need lidar to drive, only a pair of eyes. His AI is trained to think like a human but without the distraction, boredom and aggressivity humans are known for. There's limit to the benefits redundancy offers: more hardware more failure points; what to do with conflicting information. I also read that lidar does poorly in fog, rain and snow. The new radar tech that Tesla is looking at is supposed to be unaffected by poor weather so that could be a good complement.


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## Ed Woodrick (May 26, 2018)

Garlan Garner said:


> Indeed.
> 
> FSD's current version does not need all of the cameras and sensors.


Of course it doesn't need all of the camera and sensors, it uses a technology called redundancy.


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## Gordon87 (Mar 5, 2019)

Ok. Here is an odd case which will create problems for FSD. I was at a stop light, in the right lane signalling I will make a right turn when the light turns green. I look up and see that my traffic light shows red and that the traffic light for the cross traffic has been turned so that it is facing me and showing green. (Not sure how that traffic light got moved.) I then looked on my screen and sure enough, my traffic light showed red on the screen and the mis-aligned cross-traffic light showed on the screen facing me and green. Then, when my traffic light turned green, that mis-aligned traffic light turned red, and both changed accordingly on the screen. I realized which light was for my lane and which wasn't, so I then turned right, but I doubt the Tesla FSD would have been able to figure this out in its current iteration. 

Maybe with the fulsome neural network, the car would know from prior cars how to handle this situation, but what if my car were the first one to arrive at the intersection after the traffic light was moved?


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## DocScott (Mar 6, 2019)

Gordon87 said:


> Ok. Here is an odd case which will create problems for FSD. I was at a stop light, in the right lane signalling I will make a right turn when the light turns green. I look up and see that my traffic light shows red and that the traffic light for the cross traffic has been turned so that it is facing me and showing green. (Not sure how that traffic light got moved.) I then looked on my screen and sure enough, my traffic light showed red on the screen and the mis-aligned cross-traffic light showed on the screen facing me and green. Then, when my traffic light turned green, that mis-aligned traffic light turned red, and both changed accordingly on the screen. I realized which light was for my lane and which wasn't, so I then turned right, but I doubt the Tesla FSD would have been able to figure this out in its current iteration.
> 
> Maybe with the fulsome neural network, the car would know from prior cars how to handle this situation, but what if my car were the first one to arrive at the intersection after the traffic light was moved?


As Elon has said, the priority for the system will be to avoid crashing. If the car sees cross-traffic coming, it won't turn, even if that cross-traffic appears to be running a light. If the situation is especially confusing, the car should just pull to the right if it can, put its hazards on, and stop.

If FSD gets confused by road markings/signs/lights that might confuse a human driver and does something illegal but safe, that's not a huge deal; the car would have the same defense a human would.


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## M3OC Rules (Nov 18, 2016)

Gordon87 said:


> Maybe with the fulsome neural network, the car would know from prior cars how to handle this situation, but what if my car were the first one to arrive at the intersection after the traffic light was moved?


Hopefully they aren't making lemming cars. Its possible they could have some sort of real-time system that alerts cars of accidents, construction, broken stoplights, etc. in the future. You know the kind of things they say 5G will be good for.

I think this type of thing is a potential problem but it's also a potential problem for humans. Autonomous cars are going to have accidents that are their fault. The question is how many fewer than humans do we need to accept it. Perhaps in your case it can recognize an edge case and change the level of safety. There is going to be a tricky balance of safety versus speed and annoyance. If you make it too safe you will piss off everyone around you and not get to your destination. But if you can recognize situations where you need to be more conservative you can then not be annoying all the time. It will be interesting. I know of one intersection where you have a normal cross and then an extra lane coming in at an angle. They have special lights that are hard to see at an angle but you totally can. Every so often people run the light probably not knowing it. Now that I think about it, I should test that intersection and see how it does.


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## M3OC Rules (Nov 18, 2016)

One thing I'm still curious about is speed control. It's a pretty big problem with Autopilot but as I can tell from the FSD Beta videos there doesn't appear to be any new method of dealing with it.


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## Madmolecule (Oct 8, 2018)

FSD won’t be released this year. There will be a expanded beta release this summer. The main reason is Tesla’s success. It has been needed as bait to build confidence in Tesla and to provide a clear demarcation between them and the other brands. But they have become a success without it and honestly it’s the only thing that could hurt tesla in 2021. They have everything else pretty much dialed-in. Elon and Tesla are still 100% behind FSDN believe is the future. They also are learning from the AI that it really can work and perform as they dreamed. Also, the competitors are not even close so there is no rush to market to obtain the FSD market share. I am very frustrated by this and I would love to be wrong. I was over the moon when I got my new computer as I thought FSD would be around the corner. I now have a super computer but the main benefit is being able to see traffic cones. And I had to give up album art for that. It also has nothing to do with regulators. If they were confident in the product they could release it in a country that would allow it from a test basis to prove how safe it is. And then use that to convince US regulators. Electrify Cuba Elon!

The FSD bait was not used as much to acquire new customers but to keep investors. Since in the day you could not make an argument that a Tesla would pay for itself through gasoline savings or even carbon credits one of the best features they had was for the first time a car might actually appreciate in value. With the normal rule is you lose 20% when you drive it off the lot. Even the idea of a car that could make money on its own or appreciate and value was mind blowing. They also use speed, coolness and fun But without energy savings you need something to keep investors happy and on the hook

Elon has learned that AI is more similar to humans then they originally thought, in that the more you learn the more you realize you don’t know.


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## shareef777 (Mar 10, 2019)

Madmolecule said:


> FSD won't be released this year. There will be a expanded beta release this summer. The main reason is Tesla's success. It has been needed as bait to build confidence in Tesla and to provide a clear demarcation between them and the other brands. But they have become a success without it and honestly it's the only thing that could hurt tesla in 2021. They have everything else pretty much dialed-in. Elon and Tesla are still 100% behind FSDN believe is the future. They also are learning from the AI that it really can work and perform as they dreamed. Also, the competitors are not even close so there is no rush to market to obtain the FSD market share. I am very frustrated by this and I would love to be wrong. I was over the moon when I got my new computer as I thought FSD would be around the corner. I now have a super computer but the main benefit is being able to see traffic cones. And I had to give up album art for that. It also has nothing to do with regulators. If they were confident in the product they could release it in a country that would allow it from a test basis to prove how safe it is. And then use that to convince US regulators. Electrify Cuba Elon!
> 
> The FSD bait was not used as much to acquire new customers but to keep investors. Since in the day you could not make an argument that a Tesla would pay for itself through gasoline savings or even carbon credits one of the best features they had was for the first time a car might actually appreciate in value. With the normal rule is you lose 20% when you drive it off the lot. Even the idea of a car that could make money on its own or appreciate and value was mind blowing. They also use speed, coolness and fun But without energy savings you need something to keep investors happy and on the hook
> 
> Elon has learned that AI is more similar to humans then they originally thought, in that the more you learn the more you realize you don't know.


Couldn't agree more. Especially at today's $10k asking price. It's a glorified tech demo with the version out today and foreseeable future. If it requires driver attention and hands on the wheel, what're you getting for $10k!?

Price it at $5k or less, or don't tie FSD to the vehicle. I can see lawsuits popping out for people that paid for FSD and it never being released in the reasonable lifetime of the vehicle.


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## iChris93 (Feb 3, 2017)

shareef777 said:


> what're you getting for $10k!?


Basically enhanced autopilot


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## shareef777 (Mar 10, 2019)

iChris93 said:


> Basically enhanced autopilot


Yep, but lately that's been more annoying then helpful. The constant nagging to "keep hands on the steering wheel" is a bit much. It prompts me even when my hands ARE on the wheel while going straight. I've had it start prompting when I'm stopped at a red light. It even increases the rate of prompt while stopped, like "what'd you want me to do!!!?" I'd have to nudge the wheel (again, while stopped), but 9/10 times that disengages AP.

All this talk of FSD, but if the constant nagging to keep hands on wheels is going to remain then I ask again, what's the $10k get you outside of a cool tech demo.

Ive done impromptu tests with a weight on the wheel and must admit it's pretty rock solid, but legal hands free driving is likely a few years out if not a decade+ (due to government regulation or at least Tesla's fear of legal responsibility).

The FSD purchase gains you some nice advanced AP features that have some benefits, but you'd be hard pressed to find anyone spending an extra $10k considering that the value is lost if the car is gone before it's released.


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## Bigriver (Jan 26, 2018)

@shareef777 I don't think the steering wheel nag is linked to FSD or EAP.... it goes back a notch further to auto steer of basic autopilot. And based on my non-Tesla data point of one (a Volvo) I have assumed the steering wheel nag is pretty consistent across manufacturers for any lane-keeping function. Not sure what specific regulation or industry standard it is meeting, but I don't think it is just a Tesla creation that will quickly disappear.


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## ibgeek (Aug 26, 2019)

Madmolecule said:


> FSD won't be released this year. There will be a expanded beta release this summer. The main reason is Tesla's success. It has been needed as bait to build confidence in Tesla and to provide a clear demarcation between them and the other brands. But they have become a success without it and honestly it's the only thing that could hurt tesla in 2021. They have everything else pretty much dialed-in. Elon and Tesla are still 100% behind FSDN believe is the future. They also are learning from the AI that it really can work and perform as they dreamed. Also, the competitors are not even close so there is no rush to market to obtain the FSD market share. I am very frustrated by this and I would love to be wrong. I was over the moon when I got my new computer as I thought FSD would be around the corner. I now have a super computer but the main benefit is being able to see traffic cones. And I had to give up album art for that. It also has nothing to do with regulators. If they were confident in the product they could release it in a country that would allow it from a test basis to prove how safe it is. And then use that to convince US regulators. Electrify Cuba Elon!
> 
> The FSD bait was not used as much to acquire new customers but to keep investors. Since in the day you could not make an argument that a Tesla would pay for itself through gasoline savings or even carbon credits one of the best features they had was for the first time a car might actually appreciate in value. With the normal rule is you lose 20% when you drive it off the lot. Even the idea of a car that could make money on its own or appreciate and value was mind blowing. They also use speed, coolness and fun But without energy savings you need something to keep investors happy and on the hook
> 
> Elon has learned that AI is more similar to humans then they originally thought, in that the more you learn the more you realize you don't know.


THIS IS FUD! Nothing more. Please do not take any of it as fact.


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## TesLou (Aug 20, 2016)

Bigriver said:


> @shareef777 I don't think the steering wheel nag is linked to FSD or EAP.... it goes back a notch further to auto steer of basic autopilot. And based on my non-Tesla data point of one (a Volvo) I have assumed the steering wheel nag is pretty consistent across manufacturers for any lane-keeping function. Not sure what specific regulation or industry standard it is meeting, but I don't think it is just a Tesla creation that will quickly disappear.


When I first got my Model 3 in April 2018, nag was something like 1 min 20 sec in length. Later that year, it seems it was reduced to 45 secs. Then 30. Now it's 27 or so. Early on, it was also speed dependent; the faster you were going, the quicker the nag. I traffic jams, it's still a fairly long lag between nags, but nothing like it used to be. I've always had EAP, so that's the only angle I can speak from.


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## DocScott (Mar 6, 2019)

Bigriver said:


> @shareef777 I don't think the steering wheel nag is linked to FSD or EAP.... it goes back a notch further to auto steer of basic autopilot. And based on my non-Tesla data point of one (a Volvo) I have assumed the steering wheel nag is pretty consistent across manufacturers for any lane-keeping function. Not sure what specific regulation or industry standard it is meeting, but I don't think it is just a Tesla creation that will quickly disappear.


Gaze tracking is considered an acceptable alternative by regulators. I know Elon doesn't like it, but I think I'd prefer if Tesla had chosen that route.


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## sduck (Nov 23, 2017)

shareef777 said:


> The constant nagging to "keep hands on the steering wheel" is a bit much. It prompts me even when my hands ARE on the wheel while going straight.


Haven't you figured out yet that it requires just a bit of side to side torque in addition to having your hand/s on the wheel? Really, just a bit of practice and it becomes a natural thing to do without even thinking about it. I haven't had a nag in years. 


shareef777 said:


> I've had it start prompting when I'm stopped at a red light.


It doesn't do this. If it's happened to you it was probably only once, and was a fluke of some kind.


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## shareef777 (Mar 10, 2019)

sduck said:


> Haven't you figured out yet that it requires just a bit of side to side torque in addition to having your hand/s on the wheel? Really, just a bit of practice and it becomes a natural thing to do without even thinking about it. I haven't had a nag in years.
> 
> It doesn't do this. If it's happened to you it was probably only once, and was a fluke of some kind.


I'm well aware of the side to side torque requirement, still an annoying nag when it happens at least a couple times on every drive. Even more so when a slight movement doesn't satisfy the nag and I have to apply more force, but adding just enough to disengage AP instead.

The AP nag at a red light is likely a bug as it definitely happens at least once a month.


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## garsh (Apr 4, 2016)

shareef777 said:


> I'm well aware of the side to side torque requirement, still an annoying nag when it happens at least a couple times on every drive. Even more so when a slight movement doesn't satisfy the nag and I have to apply more force, but adding just enough to disengage AP instead.


I find that it's not a matter of supplying "more" force, but having to keep the force there for a second before it notices. It appears that the car only "samples" the steering wheel torque a couple times per second, so you have to be supplying force at the time it takes a reading.

Once I realized that, I stopped accidentally disengaging AP. I've now trained via muscle memory to just hold the same low force on the wheel periodically.


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## Needsdecaf (Dec 27, 2018)

sduck said:


> Haven't you figured out yet that it requires just a bit of side to side torque in addition to having your hand/s on the wheel? Really, just a bit of practice and it becomes a natural thing to do without even thinking about it. I haven't had a nag in years.


I'm now over 26 months of Model 3 ownership and almost 60k worth of driving and I still haven't figured out a way to consistently keep the nag at bay. So no, I would absolutely prefer eye tracking.


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## sduck (Nov 23, 2017)

There are several good youtube videos about how to eliminate the nags. It's just a matter of keeping a small amount of torque on the wheel all or most of the time. Just some slight weight from a hand parked on the wheel will do.

Pretty clear description here within the first minute:


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## shareef777 (Mar 10, 2019)

sduck said:


> There are several good youtube videos about how to eliminate the nags. It's just a matter of keeping a small amount of torque on the wheel all or most of the time. Just some slight weight from a hand parked on the wheel will do.
> 
> Pretty clear description here within the first minute:


Elon Musk: ""Any product that needs a manual to work is broken."

The fact that there are YouTube instructional videos on HOW TO HOLD A STEERING WHEEL tells you all you need to know.

Incidentally this reminds me of the iPhone4 antenna gate fiasco and Steve Job's response of "you're holding it wrong" (rephrased).

It's not to say that it's a major issue, but is enough to stop me from buying FSD on my next Tesla (along with the high cost).


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## iChris93 (Feb 3, 2017)

shareef777 said:


> Incidentally this reminds me of the iPhone4 antenna gate fiasco and Steve Job's response of "you're holding it wrong" (rephrased).


I've been thinking the same thing!


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## sduck (Nov 23, 2017)

An argument to all that is: it benefits everyone if people don't give up on learning new things. Sure, this is a new thing, that has a bit of a learning curve. Reading the manual or watching a video or even just asking a friend on a forum (or in real life) is a small price to pay for the benefits of actually learning how to use the new thing correctly. You don't want to be one of those old geezers who's given up on learning new things, and has to constantly ask your kids how to work the computer, do you? I'm the guy that everyone comes to to ask their questions about how to use the new features on their new phone, which I'll happily do, but I also point out how i figured it out - usually a bit of googling, or paying attention to forums or videos i watch. 

A car is a big, complicated, and potentially dangerous contraption. And like most people you probably learned how to work one of them in your teenage years, and had to pass all kinds of tests to be allowed to use one. And every time you get a new car, you usually get new features and tools that you need to learn a little about somehow. Sure, intuitive stuff is best, but the manual is always there if you can't figure out something to your liking. And when you do, you've learned something new. This little nag feature is just another feature like that - maybe it's not intuitive for you, but with a little knowledge and practice you CAN learn how to use it. Without nags. Unless you've given up on learning new things.


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## Madmolecule (Oct 8, 2018)

sduck said:


> There are several good youtube videos about how to eliminate the nags. It's just a matter of keeping a small amount of torque on the wheel all or most of the time. Just some slight weight from a hand parked on the wheel will do.


I don't really see how this is learning how to drive your vehicle better at all. I certainly agree that through muscle memory you can defeat the nags but that's not really the purpose. To me that's the argument that the nags are a waste and don't make you a better driver it is only a liability escape tool for Tesla. I can't see how they could even consider releasing the FSD without getting rid of the nags for a few months or at least making them user selectable. I've had to buy the car with FSD, insure the car with FSD, physically acknowledge that it is beta software and I'm using it at my own risk, how about letting me use the damn software. The nags really make it so I rarely use auto pilot because it's easier to just drive. It does work pretty well on the interstate as long and you're not making any major exchange changes or anything. But I have yet to let it go all the way through on a serious exchange. It's not that it will fail and not make it, it's just that it takes too long and it is making unnatural moves that makes the experience uncomfortable where I feel that someone that knows what's going on take over and I turn it off. The street light nag also was cute at first but now it makes it not worth while using it. If they are remotely close to believing that FSD is finished then auto pilot should be in the gold stage by now. I hear that Elon has tremendous confidence in the product but it's starting to be like the pope in the bullet proof Pope Mobile.

my current ratings are as follows based on my perception of what I was buying. Since there was no spec for any of this

Advanced auto pilot 3/5
auto parking 1/5
Advance summon 1/5
FSD 0/5

I could use more than just some minor bugs being fixed


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## DocScott (Mar 6, 2019)

Madmolecule said:


> my current ratings are as follows based on my perception of what I was buying. Since there was no spec for any of this
> 
> Advanced auto pilot 3/5
> auto parking 1/5
> ...


I pretty much agree with those ratings. But I'd also say this:

How the car drives (handling, etc.): 8/5
Charging and range convenience: 7/5
Comfort (seats, climate control, etc.): 7/5
Entertainment system: 5/5
Upgrades over time (sentry mode, camp mode, increased acceleration, more convenience features, ...): 8/5
Fit and finish: 6/5 (of course, that's my car; YMMV)

In other words, those aspects all met or exceeded my expectations. The automation aspects have been disappointing relative to what I expected and in fact, after some free trials, I opted not to get FSD. But there were other things I was a little nervous about, like charging, that I've turned out to be more than satisfied with.


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## Madmolecule (Oct 8, 2018)

DocScott said:


> I pretty much agree with those ratings. But I'd also say this:
> 
> How the car drives (handling, etc.): 8/5
> Charging and range convenience: 7/5
> ...


I am with you for the most part but my ratings in those categories would be a little bit different based on the price I paid for the vehicle. Comfort, entertainment fit and finished are very similar to a Toyota Camry. The sad part is I pay double the price. The biggest one I don't think we're addressing is resale value which I think we wanna believe as a five out of five but it is probably a one out of five. Early adopters were told they could never get as good of a deal is they were getting right then. That was not the truth we paid the most and there is not a huge demand for low Vin number teslas. Smart money would wait till they at least belt 100K of them and got the kinks out. I did put my $100 deposit down on the cyber truck but now I'm wondering what in the world was I thinking. What could possibly be in the advantage of getting one of the first cyber trucks. It is a revolutionary design but it is certainly untested and none of us know if we would really enjoy the benefit of it or just be frustrated that it doesn't fit in the garage. But my biggest frustration is sitting here wondering why I loan the richest man on the planet $100 for R$D. That's where I am on FSD. I bought the dream I invested in the company fantasy. They need to defined the product, supply the product, or stop selling a damn product. Vaporware has never been sold in the automotive industry but I'm starting to get the feeling why. And of course I put the deposit down on the try motor cyber truck. Knowing the cheaper versions were just marketing and probably would never be produced. I'm don't think that Tessa will be releasing the F150 killer any day now. Maybe the expedition Killer or the hummer Killer but the F150 Killer?

if this is a product tesla should release it.
if it is a dream. And by this I mean they don't know exactly what it will do exactly how it will work and exactly when it will be ready. then they should make that very clear and have some type of payback for failure to perform.
I have believed Elon's dream many times and a lot of times he's been able to pull it off. Maybe one day but it's hard to believe that it will happen while I still own the vehicle that I've paid for this amazing capabilities.
I just get the feeling I'm one definition of way from being told my expectations were always unreasonable. I feel when they release FSDN the next generation I will just paid a lot of money for automatic cruise control.

Somehow Tesla wants us all to believe that there will be a great market for used computers in the future!!! I hope people don't look at me like I'm trying to sell a tube TV in 2023

.


----------



## Needsdecaf (Dec 27, 2018)

DocScott said:


> I pretty much agree with those ratings. But I'd also say this:
> 
> How the car drives (handling, etc.): 8/5
> Charging and range convenience: 7/5
> ...


I'd be interested in hearing what you are comparing it to for driving.


----------



## M3OC Rules (Nov 18, 2016)

Madmolecule said:


> I am with you for the most part but my ratings in those categories would be a little bit different based on the price I paid for the vehicle. Comfort, entertainment fit and finished are very similar to a Toyota Camry. The sad part is I pay double the price. The biggest one I don't think we're addressing is resale value which I think we wanna believe as a five out of five but it is probably a one out of five. Early adopters were told they could never get as good of a deal is they were getting right then. That was not the truth we paid the most and there is not a huge demand for low Vin number teslas. Smart money would wait till they at least belt 100K of them and got the kinks out. I did put my $100 deposit down on the cyber truck but now I'm wondering what in the world was I thinking. What could possibly be in the advantage of getting one of the first cyber trucks. It is a revolutionary design but it is certainly untested and none of us know if we would really enjoy the benefit of it or just be frustrated that it doesn't fit in the garage. But my biggest frustration is sitting here wondering why I loan the richest man on the planet $100 for R$D. That's where I am on FSD. I bought the dream I invested in the company fantasy. They need to defined the product, supply the product, or stop selling a damn product. Vaporware has never been sold in the automotive industry but I'm starting to get the feeling why. And of course I put the deposit down on the try motor cyber truck. Knowing the cheaper versions were just marketing and probably would never be produced. I'm don't think that Tessa will be releasing the F150 killer any day now. Maybe the expedition Killer or the hummer Killer but the F150 Killer?
> 
> if this is a product tesla should release it.
> if it is a dream. And by this I mean they don't know exactly what it will do exactly how it will work and exactly when it will be ready. then they should make that very clear and have some type of payback for failure to perform.
> ...


FSD is an option. Whether or not it's worth it is a personal thing. For most people its not. I agree people should be aware of what they are buying and not get caught up in the hype. And one can always add it later. You can't trust what they say. Its marketing, pricing goes up and down, and they have no problem changing their mind week to week. I wish less people would buy it because it's justifying a very high price for what you get now and it stinks to hear people unhappy with their purchase. For me it's an incredible opportunity to beta test this crazy feat of engineering so it's worth it to me. Otherwise, the only thing I would really miss is auto lane change but not enough to justify $10k.


----------



## shareef777 (Mar 10, 2019)

M3OC Rules said:


> FSD is an option. Whether or not it's worth it is a personal thing. For most people its not. I agree people should be aware of what they are buying and not get caught up in the hype. And one can always add it later. You can't trust what they say. Its marketing, pricing goes up and down, and they have no problem changing their mind week to week. I wish less people would buy it because it's justifying a very high price for what you get now and it stinks to hear people unhappy with their purchase. For me it's an incredible opportunity to beta test this crazy feat of engineering so it's worth it to me. Otherwise, the only thing I would really miss is auto lane change but not enough to justify $10k.


Thing is, many of us bought in on the promise of it being released at the end of the year (IN 2019!). That came and went, and now 2020 is gone to. We're into 2021 and, as everyone and their grandmother knew, FSD is harder then Tesla expected.

If they'd simply give an option for a refund (knowing that repurchase would come at the increased cost), or better yet give an option to keep FSD owner based instead of vehicle based this would placate every single detractor.


----------



## Needsdecaf (Dec 27, 2018)

shareef777 said:


> Thing is, many of us bought in on the promise of it being released at the end of the year (IN 2019!). That came and went, and now 2020 is gone to. We're into 2021 and, as everyone and their grandmother knew, FSD is harder then Tesla expected.
> 
> If they'd simply give an option for a refund (knowing that repurchase would come at the increased cost), or better yet give an option to keep FSD owner based instead of vehicle based this would placate every single detractor.


Tesla could do a number of things that would placate buyers when it comes to FSD. Crediting partial to another vehicle (I don't think 100% refund is fair). Partial refund for those who are unimpressed. So far they have been unwilling to do so. Speaks volumes, IMO.


----------



## shareef777 (Mar 10, 2019)

Needsdecaf said:


> Tesla could do a number of things that would placate buyers when it comes to FSD. Crediting partial to another vehicle (I don't think 100% refund is fair). Partial refund for those who are unimpressed. So far they have been unwilling to do so. Speaks volumes, IMO.


Suppose it goes back to when you bought in. If someone paid for EAP and FSD (pre 03/2019) the former is all they've received and absolutely zilch for the latter. If they don't get anything by end of year (that'd be almost 3 years of zero returns, 4 for buyers in early early 2018). Their factory warranty would be over before they got anything in return. It's also pretty evident that's the reason Tesla moved some functionality from AP/EAP into FSD to justify "benefits" for the FSD purchase (ie, excuse not to give refunds). I know I wouldn't be entitled to a full refund since my FSD purchase included functionality like autopark/summon (which I honestly don't use or care for), but at the end of the day I bought FSD for .... FSD!


----------



## DocScott (Mar 6, 2019)

Needsdecaf said:


> I'd be interested in hearing what you are comparing it to for driving.


I was using Macromolecule's scale, which was, as I understood it, in comparison to my expectations when I bought the car. A 5 would mean I got what I expected. I'd read reviews, so I knew it was pretty good as a car, but I was still pleasantly surprised/impressed. Part of that is personal taste, of course; the driving experience is pretty much dead on to what I want it to be.


----------



## Long Ranger (Jun 1, 2018)

shareef777 said:


> Suppose it goes back to when you bought in. If someone paid for EAP and FSD (pre 03/2019) the former is all they've received and absolutely zilch for the latter.


We got the HW3 upgrade. I'm OK with spending $3k for that plus some possibility of new features in the years ahead.

However, I think the current price of $10k for FSD is crazy. If you figure EAP is worth about $3k on top of basic AP, then they're asking $7k for something that doesn't even exist yet in any practical form? They really need to bring back EAP as separate option.


----------



## Needsdecaf (Dec 27, 2018)

Long Ranger said:


> We got the HW3 upgrade. I'm OK with spending $3k for that plus some possibility of new features in the years ahead.
> 
> However, I think the current price of $10k for FSD is crazy. If you figure EAP is worth about $3k on top of basic AP, then they're asking $7k for something that doesn't even exist yet in any practical form? They really need to bring back EAP as separate option.


Tesla charged $4k for EAP last year when it was offered as a stand alone. So by their valuation, the split above basic AP is 40% EAP, 60% FSD (or really City Streets NOA).

Having previously had EAP (and having paid $5k for it) on my first Model 3, I gave it a good thought and decided that even upgrading to EAP wasn't worth the $4k to me.


----------



## shareef777 (Mar 10, 2019)

Long Ranger said:


> We got the HW3 upgrade. I'm OK with spending $3k for that plus some possibility of new features in the years ahead.
> 
> However, I think the current price of $10k for FSD is crazy. If you figure EAP is worth about $3k on top of basic AP, then they're asking $7k for something that doesn't even exist yet in any practical form? They really need to bring back EAP as separate option.


Yeah they do. It's money being thrown away as I'd bet the number of people that'd buy EAP for $3-4k is greater then the number willing to go without it due to the $10k cost.


----------



## nonStopSwagger (May 7, 2018)

Autonomy day in 2019, almost 2 years ago. Most of Elon's timelines from then are still unrealized.
I wonder if they will do another one sometime soon, to reset our expectations?

"We will be feature complete full self driving this year. The car will be able to find you in a parking lot, pick you up, take you all the way to your destination without an intervention this year. I'm certain of that. That is not a question mark. It will be essentially safe to fall asleep and wake up at their destination towards the end of next year"


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## Needsdecaf (Dec 27, 2018)

nonStopSwagger said:


> Autonomy day in 2019, almost 2 years ago. Most of Elon's timelines from then are still unrealized.
> I wonder if they will do another one sometime soon, to reset our expectations?
> 
> "We will be feature complete full self driving this year. The car will be able to find you in a parking lot, pick you up, take you all the way to your destination without an intervention this year. I'm certain of that. That is not a question mark. It will be essentially safe to fall asleep and wake up at their destination towards the end of next year"


Heh, it's really bad when you line out the Elon quoted time tables. I stole this from another forum. Thanks to user "Bladerskb" there. Out of respect, I will not post a link to that forum but you should be able to find it if you wish. But I did not wish to take credit for this.

When you put it together this way, it's a very bad look.

*December 2015:* "We're going to end up with complete autonomy, and I think we will have complete autonomy in approximately two years."

_Elon Musk Says Tesla Vehicles Will Drive Themselves in Two Years_

*January 2016:* "In ~2 years, summon should work anywhere connected by land & not blocked by borders, eg you're in LA and the car is in NY"

_Elon Musk on Twitter_

*June 2016:* "I _really consider autonomous driving a solved problem,_ I think we are less than two years away from complete autonomy, safer than humans, but regulations should take at least another year," Musk said.

_Two years until self-driving cars are on the road - is Elon Musk right?_

*March 2017:* "I think that [you will be able to fall asleep in a tesla] is about two years" -

_Transcript of "The future we're building -- and boring"_

*March 2018:* "I think probably by end of next year [end of 2019] self-driving will encompass essentially all modes of driving and be at least 100% to 200% safer than a person."

SXSW 2018

*Nov 15, 2018:* "Probably technically be able to [self deliver Teslas to customers doors] in about a year then its up to the regulators"

Elon Musk on Twitter

*Jan 30 2019:* "We need to be at 99.9999..% We need to be extremely reliable. When do we think it is safe for FSD, probably towards the end of this year then its up to the regulators when they will decide to approve that."

Tesla Q4 Earnings Call

*Feb 19 2019:* "We will be feature complete full self driving this year. The car will be able to find you in a parking lot, pick you up, take you all the way to your destination without an intervention this year. I'm certain of that. That is not a question mark. It will be essentially safe to fall asleep and wake up at their destination towards the end of next year"

On the Road to Full Autonomy With Elon Musk - FYI Podcast

*April 12th 2019:* "I think it will require detecting hands on wheel for at least six months.... I think this was all really going to be swept, I mean, the system is improving so much, so fast, that this is going to be a moot point very soon. No, in fact, I think it will become very, very quickly, maybe and towards the end this year, but I say, I'd be shocked if not next year, at the latest that having the person, having human intervene will decrease safety. DECREASE! (in response to human supervision and adding driver monitoring system)"






*April 22nd 2019:* "We expect to be feature complete in self driving this year, and we expect to be confident enough from our standpoint to say that we think people do not need to touch the wheel and can look out the window sometime probably around the second quarter of next year."

*April 22nd 2019:* "We expect to have the first operating robot taxi next year with no one in them! One million robot taxis!"
"I feel very confident predicting autonomous robotaxis for Tesla next year,"
"Level 5 autonomy with no geofence"





*May 9th 2019:* "We could have gamed an LA/NY Autopilot journey last year, but when we do it this year, everyone with Tesla Full Self-Driving will be able to do it too"

*April 12th 2020:* How long for the first robotaxi release/ deployment? 2023?
"Functionality still looking good for this year. Regulatory approval is the big unknown.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1249210220200550405
*April 29th 2020:* "we could see robotaxis in operation with the network fleet next year, not in all markets but in some."

*July 08, 2020:* "I'm extremely confident that level five or essentially complete autonomy will happen, and I think, will happen very quickly, I think at Tesla, I feel like we are very close to level five autonomy. I think-I remain confident that we will have the basic functionality for level five autonomy complete this year, There are no fundamental challenges remaining. There are many small problems. And then there's the challenge of solving all those small problems and putting the whole system together."






*Dec 1, 2020:* "I am extremely confident of achieving full autonomy and releasing it to the Tesla customer base next year. But I think at least some jurisdictions are going to allow full self-driving next year."
Axel Springer Award

*Jan 1, 2021:* "Tesla Full Self-Driving will work at a safety level well above that of the average driver this year, of that I am confident. Can't speak for regulators though."


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1345208391958888448
*Jan 27, 2021:* "at least 100% safer than a human driver"


----------



## shareef777 (Mar 10, 2019)

Needsdecaf said:


> Heh, it's really bad when you line out the Elon quoted time tables. I stole this from another forum. Thanks to user "Bladerskb" there. Out of respect, I will not post a link to that forum but you should be able to find it if you wish. But I did not wish to take credit for this.
> 
> When you put it together this way, it's a very bad look.
> 
> ...


 Regulators be like


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## Needsdecaf (Dec 27, 2018)

shareef777 said:


> Regulators be like
> View attachment 37204


Seriously.


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## Needsdecaf (Dec 27, 2018)

Regulators be like "wait, it's our fault?"


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## shareef777 (Mar 10, 2019)

Needsdecaf said:


> Regulators be like "wait, it's our fault?"


Reading all those quotes sure makes it look like Elon is running some sort of Ponzi scheme. We all chipped in funds, made him the richest person on the planet (for a short while anyway), and he's over here continuing to spout the get rich quick scheme.


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## shareef777 (Mar 10, 2019)

vinnie97 said:


> I haven't caught up with this thread. I thought this was coming for us plebes in December. Did he mean December 2021?


Elon in Dec 2021: "we're about a year away from level 5 FSD ......... pending regulators"


----------



## Bigriver (Jan 26, 2018)

shareef777 said:


> I've had it start prompting when I'm stopped at a red light.





sduck said:


> It doesn't do this. If it's happened to you it was probably only once, and was a fluke of some kind.


Plus one here for getting a steering wheel nag while sitting at a red light today. I'm sure the timer had started while I was still moving, but I was definitely at a stand-still when the nag came in.


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## FRC (Aug 4, 2018)

I think, perhaps, Elon would make a great politician...You truly can't believe anything he says.


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## shareef777 (Mar 10, 2019)

Bigriver said:


> Plus one here for getting a steering wheel nag while sitting at a red light today. I'm sure the timer had started while I was still moving, but I was definitely at a stand-still when the nag came in.


Did the nag interval continue to increase while completely stopped? I don't quite understand how the nag check isn't coded to take speed into consideration ie:

AP engaged
while speed >0 && hand torque == 0
prompt user to apply force
if speed !=0, time +5sec, nag++
if speed !=0, time +10sec nag+++
if speed !=0, time +15sec give up

There must be SOME logic for speed being considered as it doesn't nag me when I'm at a complete stop and had recently applied force to the wheel. I'm sure this'll eventually get sorted out, but just goes to show how such a basic nuisance is still overlooked, all the while FSD is to be released sometime a couple years ago :tearsofjoy:


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## Bigriver (Jan 26, 2018)

shareef777 said:


> Did the nag interval continue to increase while completely stopped?


I wasn't stopped for long enough to get multiple nags. And I actually rarely get any nags as I've mostly learned to keep enough torque on the wheel. So I am only aware through others' reports about changing nag behaviors.


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## FRC (Aug 4, 2018)

I am convinced that more rotational force is required now than was required some months ago. For 2 years, I had not seen the nag a single time, NOT ONCE! Beginning about 2-3 months ago, I now get the nag about once every 30-45 minutes. No change in driver behavior whatsoever. The rotational force required to satisfy the nag is greater now than is originally was.


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## Madmolecule (Oct 8, 2018)

sorry for confusing auto pilot with FSD. I am honestly confused what I bought and wear one ends and where the other begins. I guess I’m sad from the thought that auto pilot is finished and is at the goled level. I thought it was certainly beta with a long way to go. I guess I should assume that the Advanced auto pilot that I purchased has been provided complete as specified and sold. Great news

I think by safe drivers Elon means safe from posting negative comments on forums, or proven shills. They certainly have not announced that it is based on your driving record or certain efficiency statistics on your vehicle that you can verify. If you can’t describe the methodology or tell you the features or give you the spec it’s probably BS. Has any of the safe drivers posted any specs such as how the nags work? How the routing works? Does the FSD announce turns? Will the scribble crap be on the final release? When will they be to test the final interface. Or are we supposed to be stuck with the ugly interface to prove that we see what it seeing. I hope that scribble is not part of the new gray on gray high-performance HMI. What is the distance of advance summon? Percentage of successful routes. Maybe this is in the videos but I’ve just watched a couple because it just frustrates me because it is something that Elon has owed me for years and it just seems like the videos are nothing but pacifiers.

Is it advanced summon part of FSD alpha? if so, I hope they have different beta testers then the ones that tested that. They released that with a bunch of fanfare and hype and it is nothing but a poor parlor trick. Maybe it’s still alpha but it’s pouring down rain today and there is no chance, I’m going to have a pick me up at the grocery store. This should be the perfect application for it but it’s simply does not work and is only partially baked. I feel that people testing. We’re so wild that it actually move the car without someone in it that they called it a success. I have never seen statistics of of success or probability of success in certain parking situations. It just doesn’t work reliably it is not a finished product. I’ve gone back to walking in the rain, living the dream

my driving style and record was good enough to take my damn money Elon? Why wasn’t that a criteria when you sold me the product? Tesla did not accept a promise to pay later for FSD why should we except years of fantasy uncertainty and doubt.


Elon Electrify Cuba!!


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## M3OC Rules (Nov 18, 2016)

FRC said:


> I think, perhaps, Elon would make a great politician...You truly can't believe anything he says.


Or a great car salesman.


----------



## shareef777 (Mar 10, 2019)

Madmolecule said:


> sorry for confusing auto pilot with FSD. I am honestly confused what I bought and wear one ends and where the other begins. I guess I'm sad from the thought that auto pilot is finished and is at the goled level. I thought it was certainly beta with a long way to go. I guess I should assume that the Advanced auto pilot that I purchased has been provided complete as specified and sold. Great news
> 
> I think by safe drivers Elon means safe from posting negative comments on forums, or proven shills. They certainly have not announced that it is based on your driving record or certain efficiency statistics on your vehicle that you can verify. If you can't describe the methodology or tell you the features or give you the spec it's probably BS. Has any of the safe drivers posted any specs such as how the nags work? How the routing works? Does the FSD announce turns? Will the scribble crap be on the final release? When will they be to test the final interface. Or are we supposed to be stuck with the ugly interface to prove that we see what it seeing. I hope that scribble is not part of the new gray on gray high-performance HMI. What is the distance of advance summon? Percentage of successful routes. Maybe this is in the videos but I've just watched a couple because it just frustrates me because it is something that Elon has owed me for years and it just seems like the videos are nothing but pacifiers.
> 
> ...


Not to go off topic, but I believe summon is as good as done. I've successfully had it work in a torrential downpour from the end of a parking lot spot. Issue is that it FREAKED ME OUT so much that I haven't tried to use it again :tearsofjoy:

Back on topic: My issue with FSD beta is that while I don't expect it to be widely released due to it being a beta, give better options for some of us to enroll in it. Jeez, practically every technical feature we have in our cars is labeled as BETA. They make sure we know that with big glaring warning messages whenever we enable anything. I can see wanting to limit it if you don't want people to know how good it is for some very large reveal. But when you give a bunch of social media influencers access it's pretty obvious FSD beta is just a marketing tool.

More so obvious that years after buying my 3 people STILL think it drives me everywhere on its own.


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## TrevP (Oct 20, 2015)

shareef777 said:


> Not to go off topic, but I believe summon is as good as done. I've successfully had it work in a torrential downpour from the end of a parking lot spot. Issue is that it FREAKED ME OUT so much that I haven't tried to use it again :tearsofjoy:
> 
> Back on topic: My issue with FSD beta is that while I don't expect it to be widely released due to it being a beta, give better options for some of us to enroll in it. Jeez, practically every technical feature we have in our cars is labeled as BETA. They make sure we know that with big glaring warning messages whenever we enable anything. I can see wanting to limit it if you don't want people to know how good it is for some very large reveal. But when you give a bunch of social media influencers access it's pretty obvious FSD beta is just a marketing tool.
> 
> More so obvious that years after buying my 3 people STILL think it drives me everywhere on its own.


"BETA" is legalese for "don't sue us because you're taking the risk"


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## Madmolecule (Oct 8, 2018)

TrevP said:


> "BETA" is legalese for "don't sue us because you're taking the risk"


Exactly, plus it also means don't expect it to work all that well and don't complain when it doesn't work because it is just beta. But from what I've seen from the influencers it looks more like an alpha product. Is that really the final interface?If not when will they start testing the beta of the final product.


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## Madmolecule (Oct 8, 2018)

M3OC Rules said:


> Or a great car salesman.


I just got off the phone with the Elon, He's checking with his manager on when FSD will be released. He would release it today but his sales manager is being difficult. But don't worry we can write up the paperwork and sell you FSD today.


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## shareef777 (Mar 10, 2019)

TrevP said:


> "BETA" is legalese for "don't sue us because you're taking the risk"


I'm cool with that, so gimme FSD "beta"!


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## Needsdecaf (Dec 27, 2018)

Madmolecule said:


> I just got off the phone with the Elon, He's checking with his manager on when FSD will be released. He would release it today but his sales manager is being difficult. But don't worry we can write up the paperwork and sell you FSD today.


Tesla has phones?


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## iChris93 (Feb 3, 2017)

Needsdecaf said:


> Tesla has phones?


Only to tweet with.


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## Madmolecule (Oct 8, 2018)

I wonder if the influencers ever feel like me and FSD when it comes to their free roadsters. It seems like amazing compensation for their hard work, the only issue it is way off in the future, I just hope some of them haven’t spent it multiple times already. Ha ha. I did hear though that the board of directors were discussing canceling the roadster, then creating a new vehicle called the rodster. But don’t worry you guys will all be getting a free coupon for a ride in the new rodster, and preferential treatment in putting your deposits down. Anyone need some Amway?

This is only based on that a lot of people that are getting them continue to contemplate what the roadster will be. Will they be disappointed if it doesn’t hover and is only supplied with a rebranded DJI drone? Hovering and he even jet takeoff seems very minimal application for a sports car. Please feel free to move me to appropriate category


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## shareef777 (Mar 10, 2019)

I love my M3P, but I definitely feel jaded about the money I put in for FSD. Hope Tesla/Elon realize that brand loyalty is a major success factor for auto manufacturers and unless they get FSD sorted soon, they'll lose a good chunk of customers to the various other electric vehicles coming out (primarily Rivian and Lucid). If the product isn't ready, then either offer refunds or the ability to transfer FSD to another vehicle.

I have been waiting for a 7 seat MYP, but now the FSD situation for my 3 means I'm going to see what other manufacturers have to offer instead. I know I'm only one customer and it won't impact Tesla's bottomline, but seeing the growing number of posts about the frustration of info on our DEPRECIATING FSD purchases, there're others.


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## Garlan Garner (May 24, 2016)

LOL - talking about loss of map realestate.

Look at one of the latest FSD beta builds.

(36) Model 3 - Beta FSD 8.2 - Test Loop 1 - 2021.4.11.1 - 3 March 2021 - YouTube

lol


----------



## msjulie (Feb 6, 2018)

Garlan Garner said:


> LOL - talking about loss of map realestate.
> 
> Look at one of the latest FSD beta builds.
> 
> ...


Really not a fan of that change - I know it's like spitting into the wind but I wish there was a UI for folks that drive their own car and want info like that


map size adjustable by owner
prominent current speed, battery status as the original had, etc
more stuff for those interested in 'geek' details like the S had (energy use display vs even less useful power/regen line in new 3 UI) 
etc

The original left side layout showed some thought on balance, prominence of data etc. It's almost like if you don't have/want FSD tough luck on you, your UI is anti-tuned for your use


----------



## evannole (Jun 18, 2018)

Garlan Garner said:


> LOL - talking about loss of map realestate.
> 
> Look at one of the latest FSD beta builds.
> 
> ...


What a waste. I seriously don't understand why they need to show any visualization whatsoever. No one should be staring at them, or anything else on the screen, even while the car is in FSD mode. The visualizations provide no useful information and are inherently distracting. Somehow a stationary green battery icon was distracting, but red and yellow and purple and white lines actively moving all over the screen is not? Maybe it's useful for Tesla to have third-party viewers see this on YouTube so they can confirm that the car really does see these things, but it's utterly useless to the driver.

Meanwhile, being able to quickly glance at a very large map is inherently useful, including in some cases where navigation is not active.

I really hope that production versions of FSD won't have this useless nonsense on the screen and instead go back to having the large map and camera views,


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## francoisp (Sep 28, 2018)

Garlan Garner said:


> LOL - talking about loss of map realestate.
> 
> Look at one of the latest FSD beta builds.
> 
> ...


I thought I read (heard?) somewhere that the split was adjustable.


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## Garlan Garner (May 24, 2016)

evannole said:


> What a waste. I seriously don't understand why they need to show any visualization whatsoever. No one should be staring at them, or anything else on the screen, even while the car is in FSD mode. The visualizations provide no useful information and are inherently distracting. Somehow a stationary green battery icon was distracting, but red and yellow and purple and white lines actively moving all over the screen is not? Maybe it's useful for Tesla to have third-party viewers see this on YouTube so they can confirm that the car really does see these things, but it's utterly useless to the driver.
> 
> Meanwhile, being able to quickly glance at a very large map is inherently useful, including in some cases where navigation is not active.
> 
> I really hope that production versions of FSD won't have this useless nonsense on the screen and instead go back to having the large map and camera views,


Its not a waste to me at all.

I love the large screen as I will have FSD. I look at it all the time now to see if I have people in my blind spot.

This thread is going to explode with criticism about the screen real estate if the ability to change it isn't there.

There should be a poll.

Who likes the FSD real estate? FSD owners?
Who likes the MAP real estate? Non FSD owners?


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## lance.bailey (Apr 1, 2019)

watching the video, it appears to be a wire frame rendering - just look at the boxes for oncoming cars instead of the 3D renderings we currently have. I suspect that this wire frame "debug" display is focusing and has enlarged the left side display to help debug what is going on.

I also don't expect the display to look like i'm driving through the set of Tron.


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## Garlan Garner (May 24, 2016)

lance.bailey said:


> watching the video, it appears to be a wire frame rendering - just look at the boxes for oncoming cars instead of the 3D renderings we currently have. I suspect that this wire frame "debug" display is focusing and has enlarged the left side display to help debug what is going on.
> 
> I also don't expect the display to look like i'm driving through the set of Tron.


I would love the Tron graphics.....at least for a while.

I just want to experience it all - at least for a while.

I suppose I'm just not that serious about all of this having to be perfect - day one.

Tesla has trained me well for these past ( almost ) 3 years. They will eventually get it all right. LOL...I remember when I first got my car - I had to double scroll wheel reset - EVERY DAY due to something not working. Now -- I can't remember the last time I had to do so.


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## Garlan Garner (May 24, 2016)

msjulie said:


> Really not a fan of that change - I know it's like spitting into the wind but I wish there was a UI for folks that drive their own car and want info like that
> 
> 
> map size adjustable by owner
> ...


LOL - I get it.

I would like the option to make the map size adjustable also - for no other reason as to keep this thread under control.....lol


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## francoisp (Sep 28, 2018)

Garlan Garner said:


> Its not a waste to me at all.
> 
> I love the large screen as I will have FSD. I look at it all the time now to see if I have people in my blind spot.
> 
> ...


Looks like the split is adjustable as per the two youtube videos splash screens. Or maybe in one case he's using navigation and in the other he isn't.

Edit: I carefully watched the videos and when the car isn't in Autosteer the map takes a larger portion of the screen


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## evannole (Jun 18, 2018)

Garlan Garner said:


> Its not a waste to me at all.
> 
> I love the large screen as I will have FSD. I look at it all the time now to see if I have people in my blind spot.
> 
> ...


I paid for FSD. My mirrors and a shoulder check are how I check my blind spot, and how I will continue to do so once FSD is activated. The only time I look at visualizations are when I am pulling into a parking spot and want to see how close, in inches, I am to the car in front of me.


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## Garlan Garner (May 24, 2016)

evannole said:


> I paid for FSD. My mirrors and a shoulder check are how I check my blind spot, and how I will continue to do so once FSD is activated. The only time I look at visualizations are when I am pulling into a parking spot and want to see how close, in inches, I am to the car in front of me.


To each his own.

I'm still trying to design the single car that EVERYONE will like - with no complaints.


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## Long Ranger (Jun 1, 2018)

francoisp said:


> Edit: I carefully watched the videos and when the car isn't in Autosteer the map takes a larger portion of the screen


That could be, I only scrolled through the Loop 1 video where I think it's in Autosteer the whole time.

However, what I see in that video is that the map takes a larger portion of the screen when the map is north-up and the map width shrinks when it switches to heading-up. Around the 4:15 mark he puts in a new destination, and the map expands while it is showing the full directions and north-up view. The map shrinks when the list of directions collapse and the map switches to heading-up.


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