# Dropping HOLD



## GeorgeIP (Oct 21, 2016)

Has anyone other than me had their Model 3 drop out of “HOLD” while waiting for a stoplight? Also, I’ve had the car start moving after a stop in “Traffic-Aware Cruise control” without receiving a command to do so by stepping on the accelerator or having the traffic move in front of the car.

Please let me know if you’ve had a similar experience. Tesla is denying that they’ve heard this happen from anyone else. I’ve had one of each happen to me in my Model 3 Performance. The last one resulted in a need for major repairs.

Tesla told me the system is not good at making judgements if a motorcycle is directly in front of the car. The last issue above had a motorcycle in front of me at the stoplight line.

Your feedback would be appreciated.

Thanks, — George —


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## JasonF (Oct 26, 2018)

It takes very little effort to push the car out of hold. If you place your foot too close to the accelerator and bump it as you move your foot, you might take it off hold accidentally.


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## android04 (Sep 20, 2017)

JasonF said:


> It takes very little effort to push the car out of hold. If you place your foot too close to the accelerator and bump it as you move your foot, you might take it off hold accidentally.


Same goes for bumping the brake pedal. Bumping brake or accelerator will take it out of Hold.

As for the second incident with the motorcycle, if you were still on Autopilot with it stopped due to traffic, and if it didn't see the motorcycle right in front for some reason, then it could have tried to get back up to the set speed if the car in front of the motorcycle moved. Only you should know whether that happened since you can see on the screen what the Tesla sees. Or if you were paying attention to the road maybe you didn't see the screen.


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## Gabzqc (Oct 15, 2016)

Can anyone explain to me why it goes into HOLD in the first place? if it can apply the brakes on its own and knows when to start moving again, why doesnt it do so ONLY SOMETIMES.... 
What triggers the car to go into HOLD and not just use the normal brakes as in stop and go traffic..?
Thanks!


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## garsh (Apr 4, 2016)

Gabzqc said:


> What triggers the car to go into HOLD and not just use the normal brakes as in stop and go traffic..?


Hold is activated via the driver pushing down a little farther on the brake pedal after the car has come to a complete stop. AFAIK, the car never enters HOLD mode by itself.

From the owner's manual:


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## HCD3 (Mar 3, 2019)

garsh said:


> Hold is activated via the driver pushing down a little farther on the brake pedal after the car has come to a complete stop. AFAIK, the car never enters HOLD mode by itself.
> 
> From the owner's manual:
> 
> View attachment 29344


What I find really cool is that if you are not in hold and open the door the car will be put into park automatically to prevent roll away.


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## Gabzqc (Oct 15, 2016)

Its a differnt thing we are talking about here.
1. Hill Hold, when you put extra pressure on the brake, the car will apply and hold the brakes on for 10mins until you move off. 
2. HOLD appears in blue underneath the MAX speed setting for TACC at random times after you have slowed and stopped behind a car when in autopilot. The car will not continue when the car in front moves off, you have to apply the accelerator a little...

I cant see the logic and reason for the car displaying HOLD (2.) randomly when stopped in traffic and I have not touched the brake pedal. Seems to only happen at Traffic Lights, which makes me think its got something to do with the car not going through red...


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## garsh (Apr 4, 2016)

Gabzqc said:


> Its a differnt thing we are talking about here.


Sorry about that!
I haven't used autopilot in stop-and-go traffic enough to have encountered what you describe.


> 2. HOLD appears in blue underneath the MAX speed setting for TACC at random times after you have slowed and stopped behind a car when in autopilot. The car will not continue when the car in front moves off, you have to apply the accelerator a little...
> 
> I cant see the logic and reason for the car displaying HOLD (2.) randomly when stopped in traffic and I have not touched the brake pedal. Seems to only happen at Traffic Lights, which makes me think its got something to do with the car not going through red...


I found the relevant part in the manual:










Reference: https://www.tesla.com/content/dam/tesla/Ownership/Own/model_3_owners_manual_europe_en.pdf#page=76


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## Grey3 (Sep 26, 2019)

Interesting that I found this post today. Just about an hour ago, my car (firmware 2019.32.1) suddenly lunged forward from being at a stop while in TACC, as if the traffic in front of me was again moving. I almost rear ended the car in front of me, but just barely avoided it by braking at the last second. My feet were off the pedals at the time. Today was the first time that the TACC has done this. It certainly taught me a lesson not to be complacent when stopped while on cruise control from now on. My “Hold” function works very well, however.


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## Carotene (Oct 11, 2018)

I rear ended a car this week in stop and go traffic. I don't have autopilot so no tacc. It all happened so fast I cant be sure what transpired. I was stopped, not sure if on Hold, and suddenly the car lunged forward. Did I hit the accelerator accidentally? I stomped down as fast as I could and just tapped the tow hitch of the SUV in front. I wish I knew what happened. I've been driving a long time. Never did anything like this. Who knows...


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## garsh (Apr 4, 2016)

Carotene said:


> I rear ended a car this week in stop and go traffic. I don't have autopilot so no tacc. It all happened so fast I cant be sure what transpired. I was stopped, not sure if on Hold, and suddenly the car lunged forward. Did I hit the accelerator accidentally? I stomped down as fast as I could and just tapped the tow hitch of the SUV in front. I wish I knew what happened. I've been driving a long time. Never did anything like this. Who knows...


If you didn't have Autopilot or TACC, then you wouldn't have been in the HOLD state that @Gabzqc was describing. That only happens when autopilot or TACC slows the car to a stop.

Did you have your foot off the brake pedal? I assume so. So maybe you had "Vehicle Hold" activated by pressing further on the brake pedal.


garsh said:


> Hold is activated via the driver pushing down a little farther on the brake pedal after the car has come to a complete stop. AFAIK, the car never enters HOLD mode by itself.
> 
> From the owner's manual:
> 
> View attachment 29344


Sometimes, I've been trying to activate Vehicle Hold, and didn't realize that it was already activated. Pressing the brake pedal in this case will disengage it instead of engage it. Perhaps you did something like this?

As for the "lunging" forward, there are a few possibilities I can think of.

You accidentally hit the accelerator.
An ill-fitting floormat hit the accelerator?
You were on a slight downhill.
You have "creep" mode turned on, such that the car accelerates a little when you remove braking. 
While I wouldn't describe most of these as "lunging", I could imagine a situation where your attention was on something inside the car, you didn't realize that it had started moving, and then when you look up and realize that you're moving it feels like lunging.

Sorry to hear about the damage. I hope it's not too bad.


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## GeorgeIP (Oct 21, 2016)

Friends: What I’m trying to do is convince Tesla that there is either a bug that drops “Hold” or one that doesn’t see motorcycles in front of the car properly. My feet were folded back against the seat when the car started moving forward (down the incline)without any input from me. The rest of this sorry saga is my fault. It’s not ”unintended acceleration” as Tesa’s response assumes was my complaint! Tesla says there is no indication in the log of any entry between my stopping the car and my panicked stomp on the brake which missed and hit the accelerator. That’s my issue. I know what I experienced but the log does not show it. 
Has this not happened to anyone else? Only one car out of thousands to have this happen?
Do you think Ver 10 will rewrite that code and the problem will go away?
Thanks, — George —


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## JWardell (May 9, 2016)

I have had a few instances...almost always on a downhill offramp...where hold did not engage when I expected to, and when releasing my foot of course the car rolled forward. I would imagine if creep was on it would even power forward in that situation. Obviously Hold is engaged several dozen times a day, and I may not always verify it on the screen each time, but regardless it is always important to stop far enough behind the car in front to react to something unexpected such as that (or being rear-ended).
I do find many corner cases across Tesla's software that do not compensate for inclines/declines. That is most obvious with front collision warning, which alerts when unexpected because it is not taking into account the added deceleration from an incline. 
But fo course that means it would move forward just after taking your foot off the brake. Is that what happened, or did it move after it was fully stopped for several seconds?


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## Gabzqc (Oct 15, 2016)

JWardell said:


> I have had a few instances...almost always on a downhill offramp...where hold did not engage when I expected to, and when releasing my foot of course the car rolled forward. I would imagine if creep was on it would even power forward in that situation. Obviously Hold is engaged several dozen times a day, and I may not always verify it on the screen each time, but regardless it is always important to stop far enough behind the car in front to react to something unexpected such as that (or being rear-ended).
> I do find many corner cases across Tesla's software that do not compensate for inclines/declines. That is most obvious with front collision warning, which alerts when unexpected because it is not taking into account the added deceleration from an incline.
> But fo course that means it would move forward just after taking your foot off the brake. Is that what happened, or did it move after it was fully stopped for several seconds?


You mean Hill Hold.... not HOLD....


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## JWardell (May 9, 2016)

Gabzqc said:


> You mean Hill Hold.... not HOLD....


no. If anything the model 3 doesn't even have hill hold, it will roll back if you don't touch the brakes.


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## [email protected] (Oct 3, 2018)

JWardell said:


> Obviously Hold is engaged several dozen times a day...


A tad off topic, but can you help me understand the benefit of the hold feature? I drive other people's Teslas frequently and have never understood the benefit. I mean, keep your foot on the brake when you want to stay stationary, right? If you absolutely must take your foot off the brake while stopped, then put it in Park. What am I missing here? 
Obviously with manual transmission cars there's a nice benefit to the temporary hold feature when on a hill (nightmares of learning how to take off on an incline with a stick while someone is RIGHT on your ass!)


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## Long Ranger (Jun 1, 2018)

JWardell said:


> no. If anything the model 3 doesn't even have hill hold, it will roll back if you don't touch the brakes.


It's not technically Hill Hold, that's the name @Gabzqc defined above in this thread. But there are two different hold modes in the car, one when you press the brake, and a second one initiated by TACC.

The hold mode that's initiated by you pressing the brake is actually called Vehicle Hold in the manual, not Hill Hold. Although as a side note, I've noticed that its behavior changes slightly whether you are traveling up or down hill. When stopping going uphill, it goes into Vehicle Hold with just the slightest press of the brake. When stopping going downhill, it requires an extra hard press to initiate Vehicle Hold. I like this difference.

The hold mode that's initiated by TACC is called HOLD state in the manual, and @garsh quoted the relevant manual section above.

If I'm reading the accident description from @GeorgeIP correctly, I think he was relying on the TACC HOLD state behind a motorcycle at a light, his car started moving forward on its own (but Tesla's logs don't show this?), then he accidentally hit the accelerator instead of the brake. I apologize if I've misinterpreted something, sorry to hear about that accident, and I hope there weren't injuries.


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## Long Ranger (Jun 1, 2018)

[email protected] said:


> A tad off topic, but can you help me understand the benefit of the hold feature? I drive other people's Teslas frequently and have never understood the benefit. I mean, keep your foot on the brake when you want to stay stationary, right? If you absolutely must take your foot off the brake while stopped, then put it in Park. What am I missing here?
> Obviously with manual transmission cars there's a nice benefit to the temporary hold feature when on a hill (nightmares of learning how to take off on an incline with a stick while someone is RIGHT on your ass!)


I'd say there are three main benefits to Vehicle Hold. 1) Prevent rollback on a steep uphill exactly as you cite for a manual transmission. 2) Prevent accidental creep of you're on a steep downhill and you don't keep enough pressure on the brake. 3) Faster reaction time on launches by hovering your foot right above the accelerator.

But in general, I agree, keep your foot on the brake when stopped.


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## [email protected] (Oct 3, 2018)

Long Ranger said:


> I'd say there are three main benefits to Vehicle Hold. 1) Prevent rollback on a steep uphill exactly as you cite for a manual transmission. 2) Prevent accidental creep of you're on a steep downhill and you don't keep enough pressure on the brake. 3) Faster reaction time on launches by hovering your foot right above the accelerator.
> 
> But in general, I agree, keep your foot on the brake when stopped.


I can get behind #3! I like it!


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## Mr. Spacely (Feb 28, 2019)

I like the feature at long lights just to rest my foot...


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## raptor (May 6, 2018)

Since the initial V10 release, I've been experience the vehicle dropping out of vehicle hold in the same spot every time. I engage hill hold in the same spot every day (very slight incline, you don't even see it), but since V10, you can hear the brakes creaking, and the car will start rolling back. I don't know what changed, but something did.


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## JWardell (May 9, 2016)

[email protected] said:


> A tad off topic, but can you help me understand the benefit of the hold feature? I drive other people's Teslas frequently and have never understood the benefit. I mean, keep your foot on the brake when you want to stay stationary, right? If you absolutely must take your foot off the brake while stopped, then put it in Park. What am I missing here?
> Obviously with manual transmission cars there's a nice benefit to the temporary hold feature when on a hill (nightmares of learning how to take off on an incline with a stick while someone is RIGHT on your ass!)


You must live in a wonderful part of the world where there is no traffic!
For me, each commute probably involves 100+ stops as we creep along, not to mention several minutes sitting stopped at each light. That's a lot of foot pain as we get older!

Hold isn't a Tesla feature at all, I am seeing it in more and more cars now, and we had it (and quickly loved it) a few years earlier in our Mazda. The only annoyance there is you must press the button to activate it with every drive. There's also something extra nice about sitting in your electric car, with absolutely no sound or vibration, and not having to do anything while stopped just like you are sitting on your couch at home (maybe we can add a car ottoman in a few years?)

But (with both cars), hold doesn't activate when the car stops, it requires a little bit more brake pressure than that, and a little bit extra fraction of a second before it engages. Every once in a while I'm a little too quick to rest the foot and it rolls forward, which I think might have been what happened here.


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## MelindaV (Apr 2, 2016)

JWardell said:


> You must live in a wonderful part of the world where there is no traffic!
> For me, each commute probably involves 100+ stops as we creep along, not to mention several minutes sitting stopped at each light. That's a lot of foot pain as we get older!
> 
> Hold isn't a Tesla feature at all, I am seeing it in more and more cars now, and we had it (and quickly loved it) a few years earlier in our Mazda. The only annoyance there is you must press the button to activate it with every drive. There's also something extra nice about sitting in your electric car, with absolutely no sound or vibration, and not having to do anything while stopped just like you are sitting on your couch at home (maybe we can add a car ottoman in a few years?)
> ...


knowing Jason is in Beaverton, I can only laugh at the first line of your post.... ok - back to reading the rest 
(traffic at 6:50a...)








I personally really love having the (hold) having come from driving a 5-speed the last 15 or so years prior and living in a hilly place with constant stopped traffic. (I remember one particular drive home when I was concerned something was up with my clutch that I counted the number of times I pressed the clutch in, it was over 400 for the 13 mile drive...)


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## iChris93 (Feb 3, 2017)

FYI, "hill hold" is not a real thing [edit]on a Tesla[/edit]. It is called "Vehicle Hold" per the manual.


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## Long Ranger (Jun 1, 2018)

raptor said:


> Since the initial V10 release, I've been experience the vehicle dropping out of vehicle hold in the same spot every time. I engage hill hold in the same spot every day (very slight incline, you don't even see it), but since V10, you can hear the brakes creaking, and the car will start rolling back. I don't know what changed, but something did.


Strange. When it starts creaking and rolling back, is the Vehicle Hold indicator still on? If still on, does it do this on all inclines? If the indicator shuts off, is it possible you are tapping the brake pedal?


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## Dr. J (Sep 1, 2017)

iChris93 said:


> FYI, "hill hold" is not a real thing.


It actually has a long history: Hill-holder.


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## iChris93 (Feb 3, 2017)

Dr. J said:


> It actually has a long history: Hill-holder.


Thanks for sharing that. Cool history of the device used for manual-transmission vehicles.

edit: I've edited my original post to say it is not a real thing on a Tesla.


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## JWardell (May 9, 2016)

MelindaV said:


> knowing Jason is in Beaverton, I can only laugh at the first line of your post.... ok - back to reading the rest
> (traffic at 6:50a...)
> View attachment 29633
> 
> ...


Look at that pretty red and orange! Google had to invent a new dark dried-blood red color for our traffic. It can often take an hour to go 5 miles.

But I agree, as a lifetime manual transmission driver, that may very much sway my opinion in favor of hold and no creep.


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## raptor (May 6, 2018)

Long Ranger said:


> Strange. When it starts creaking and rolling back, is the Vehicle Hold indicator still on? If still on, does it do this on all inclines? If the indicator shuts off, is it possible you are tapping the brake pedal?


The indicator stays on yes, it doesn't show this behavior on a similar decline in the same area, or steeper inclines in other areas.


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## cfcubed (Aug 20, 2018)

GeorgeIP said:


> What I'm trying to do is convince Tesla that there is either a bug that drops "Hold" or one that doesn't see motorcycles in front of the car properly. <snip>
> My feet were folded back against the seat when the car started moving forward (down the incline)without any input from me. <snip>
> Tesla says there is no indication in the log of any entry between my stopping the car and my panicked stomp on the brake which missed and hit the accelerator. <snip>


Just saw this thread and find it curious that only one other brought up injury in this accident. George mentions collision with a motorcycle and need for major repairs. My first concern/query is whether the motorcycle rider was injured.

My wife and I have had our Model 3 for over a year. We use TACC & Autopilot conservatively only where its intended to be used, highways & freeways... Always taking control in any questionable situations (e.g. construction zones) or when it could post undue risk to others such as behind motorcycles, nearing disabled vehicles, etc. We also keep our hand on the wheel and, esp. in tight areas or stop n go, our feet ready/near pedals ready to take over (e.g. not folded back against seat - that's too much foot travel for a panic stop, as George found).
Would also be wary of trusting a feature like Hold on incline/decline esp. with motorcycle, or worse a cyclist, in front or behind... E.g. queued at stop lights, stop signs we just press & hold brake, driving the car ourselves.

IMO the problem Tesla is creating for itself is it cannot rely upon or enforce careful, conservative, responsible use of its BETA features by the general public. So we get all sorts of videos, news & other reports of occasional times Tesla's advanced & beta features (autopilot, auto park, summon, etc) cause problems. Which could lead to legal issues for Tesla or Tesla operators, NHTSA & others imposing restrictions, etc.

N.B. Reading the manual takes initiative and time. It contains tidbits (incl. Tesla hiding/protecting itself behind the BETA label) like:
Traffic-Aware Cruise Control is a BETA feature. Traffic-Aware Cruise Control is primarily intended for driving on dry, straight roads, such as highways and freeways. It should not be used on city streets.
Traffic-Aware Cruise Control may react to vehicles or objects that either do not exist or are not in the lane of travel
Never depend on Traffic-Aware Cruise Control to slow down the vehicle enough to prevent a collision.

Autosteer is a BETA feature. Autosteer is intended for use only by a fully attentive driver on freeways and highways where access is limited by entry and exit ramps. If you choose to use Autosteer on residential roads, a road without a center divider, or a road where access is not limited _[CF: potentially placing pedestrians, cyclists at risk],_ Autosteer may limit the maximum allowed cruising speed.


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## JWardell (May 9, 2016)

raptor said:


> The indicator stays on yes, it doesn't show this behavior on a similar decline in the same area, or steeper inclines in other areas.


Hold (on any car) just keeps the brake pressed to whatever level you manually pressed it. It does not necessary push the brake as hard as necessary. If you just barely brake enough to hold the car on a steep incline, right at the static friction limit, then some movement or shifting of mass could be enough to break friction and move the car again. It just works like a ratchet.
Be sure you press the brake tightly, more than is needed, on any incline.
Normally you do this subconsciously 99% of the time, but every once in a while, as I said, I may not press tight enough or take my foot off a bit too soon, and the car may roll. I recognize this as my own fault and quickly hit the brakes again, with more force.


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## GDN (Oct 30, 2017)

This is an interesting thread. I've come to love the Hold feature, especially at stoplights as it means I've got my foot ready for the accelerator and plan on being the first one off the line. It's just fun, the acceleration never gets old, even in more controlled city street driving. However if there is an issue here seems I may need to be more careful - in 20K miles in two 3's I've never had a reason to not fully trust it, but it is a system that could fail although there are redundancies built in.

To say the least, I have not re-read the manual tonight, but several of you note that there isn't really a "Hill Hold" mode in the car and that may be true, but what several folks may be referring to, when you do engage the brake hold feature and you are on an incline or decline, not only do you get the (H) emblem - I always get an extra message below the car graphic indicating an incline Hold and I need to press the accelerator to release the hold. So it may not be described as such, but there is extra messaging and Hill Hold really is kind of a thing in the car.

Also the Hold is a feature of the Bosch brake system. I don't find the reference link saying this is what is in the model 3, but I've read it elsewhere. This helps understand a bit about the brake control - https://www.bosch-mobility-solution...riving-safety-systems/brake-booster/ibooster/


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## JWardell (May 9, 2016)

GDN said:


> This is an interesting thread. I've come to love the Hold feature, especially at stoplights as it means I've got my foot ready for the accelerator and plan on being the first one off the line. It's just fun, the acceleration never gets old, even in more controlled city street driving. However if there is an issue here seems I may need to be more careful - in 20K miles in two 3's I've never had a reason to not fully trust it, but it is a system that could fail although there are redundancies built in.
> 
> To say the least, I have not re-read the manual tonight, but several of you note that there isn't really a "Hill Hold" mode in the car and that may be true, but what several folks may be referring to, when you do engage the brake hold feature and you are on an incline or decline, not only do you get the (H) emblem - I always get an extra message below the car graphic indicating an incline Hold and I need to press the accelerator to release the hold. So it may not be described as such, but there is extra messaging and Hill Hold really is kind of a thing in the car.
> 
> Also the Hold is a feature of the Bosch brake system. I don't find the reference link saying this is what is in the model 3, but I've read it elsewhere. This helps understand a bit about the brake control - https://www.bosch-mobility-solution...riving-safety-systems/brake-booster/ibooster/


Good point about the extra popup message, I always wondered why that randomly chose to pop up, and sure enough I always remember it popping up on an offramp downhill. I don't think there is any functional or mechanical difference, just a piece of code that says if car is not level, pop up message.
Also Hold does not require the iBooster, it can be achieved with any car with modern computer controlled antilock brakes. Hold does not put the pressure on the brakes...the driver does. Hold just keeps it there. 
The iBooster puts pressure on the brakes so the car can brake on its own-as needed with autopilot-and does so without the vacuum system an ICE car would use to do so.


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## GeorgeIP (Oct 21, 2016)

How about the AEB (Automatic Emergency Braking)? Even though I accidentally hit the accelerator, shouldn’t the AEB stop me from hitting the motorcycle in front of me?
Your observations are sincerely appreciated!


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## garsh (Apr 4, 2016)

GeorgeIP said:


> How about the AEB (Automatic Emergency Braking)? Even though I accidentally hit the accelerator, shouldn't the AEB stop me from hitting the motorcycle in front of me?


AEB is NOT designed to prevent collisions. It only activates when it believes a collision is unavoidable. It just tries to reduce speed in order to minimize the energy of an impact.


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## MelindaV (Apr 2, 2016)

GeorgeIP said:


> How about the AEB (Automatic Emergency Braking)? Even though I accidentally hit the accelerator, shouldn't the AEB stop me from hitting the motorcycle in front of me?
> Your observations are sincerely appreciated!


I think what you are thinking of is you as the driver should be preventing the car from hitting motorcycles.


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## Long Ranger (Jun 1, 2018)

GeorgeIP said:


> How about the AEB (Automatic Emergency Braking)? Even though I accidentally hit the accelerator, shouldn't the AEB stop me from hitting the motorcycle in front of me?
> Your observations are sincerely appreciated!


Also, to add a bit to what @garsh quoted from the manual, you should be aware that pressing the accelerator overrides AEB. The car lets you override it in case you decide to make an evasive maneuver or you decide that the car is phantom braking. Here's a quote from the manual:
Automatic Emergency Braking does not apply the brakes, or stops applying the brakes, when:​• You turn the steering wheel sharply.​• You press and release the brake pedal​while Automatic Emergency Braking is​applying the brakes.​• You accelerate hard while Automatic​Emergency Braking is applying the brakes.​• The vehicle, motorcycle, bicycle, or​pedestrian is no longer detected ahead.​
The feature that would have applied in your case was Obstacle-Aware Acceleration, if you had it enabled. However, that feature only reduces the motor torque to reduce the severity of a collision. It still trusts that if you are pressing the accelerator, then you want the car to accelerate regardless of the sensors.


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