# Are you using Traffic Light and Stop Sign Control?



## RichEV (Sep 21, 2017)

Please answer only if you have the TLaSSC feature available. At least firmware release 2020.12.6, with HW3.

Are you currently using this feature during your regular in-city driving?

as of:
7/20 - 46%/54%
6/27 - about 45% Yes/55% No or Seldom
5/25 - 46%/54%
5/13- - 47%/53%
5/10 - 43%/57%
5/6 - 48%/52% - trending toward minimized usage ...
5/2 - about 50%/50%
4/30 - 60% Yes/40% No or Seldom


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## SoFlaModel3 (Apr 15, 2017)

Frankly not driving a lot right now. Forced to speed limit on city roads is too slow. It’s a bit abrupt stopping and still struggles with hard braking on cross traffic, like a brand new driver with a learner’s permit. 

I’ll use it in spots to help with the “training process” to validate decisions, but overall it’s not good enough yet.


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## GDN (Oct 30, 2017)

If I'm out driving and traffic isn't heavy I'm trying to use it. I also never use TACC without Autosteer - it's all or nothing for me.


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## SubTesla599 (Oct 20, 2019)

I'm using it when I can. Strangely, yesterday I was limited to the Tesla speed. This morning I was not. I was able to set the speed to at least 10 mph over the Tesla limit. Yesterday, my wife was with me and she kept getting freaked out about being rear-ended. Today, I was out without her and I was able to learn to use it more smoothly. It's definitely a work in progress and I do routinely push it to do things (as safely as possible) that I know it probably won't be able to handle. I'm truly excited about using it.


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## Lchamp (Nov 10, 2019)

It's always on for me.

It would be nice if there was a sound notification when the traffic control warning comes up. I frequently don't notice it until it starts slowing for a green light. A non-irritating "ding" would help confirm a green light before it starts slowing down.


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## NR4P (Jul 14, 2018)

Its a conservative step in the right direction. I expect that Tesla is looking at driver reactions to proceed vs the car's decision point to stop or go. In other words, the validate the car decision and if the car sets a STOP flag and driver floors it, on occasion they pull the video. Its testing and tens of thousands of us are testing.

Unfortunately some whiners out there. Some folks whining it is not good. Gee, no one is forced to use it. I expect in the coming months it will do proper Stops and Gos.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/04/27/tech/tesla-autopilot-stoplight/index.html


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## littlD (Apr 17, 2016)

Same whiners that complained about NoA.

Hey, I get it, Middie tried to kill me twice the first day I had NoA.

At least this new feature isn't as challenging to try out. I'm already used to it and use it all the time.


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## iChris93 (Feb 3, 2017)

littlD said:


> At least this new feature isn't as challenging to try out. I'm already used to it and use it all the time.


Maybe it was because I actually drove everyday when NoA first came out, but I disagree here. With NoA, nothing bad would happen until you confirmed. Here, something bad could happen if you do not confirm. I always feel on-edge when testing this new feature.


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## TomT (Apr 1, 2019)

The speed limit limitation makes it no-go around here...


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## littlD (Apr 17, 2016)

iChris93 said:


> Maybe it was because I actually drove everyday when NoA first came out, but I disagree here. With NoA, nothing bad would happen until you confirmed. Here, something bad could happen if you do not confirm. I always feel on-edge when testing this new feature.


Good point!

We have to confirm green lights as we can't trust the car (yet) to know it's safe to proceed.

My point about "not as challenging" was that it's easier for me to interact with and I already can look ahead at approaching lights and signs like I would normally do.


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## Chris350 (Aug 8, 2017)

I use it every chance I get...

The more data.... The faster we get updates to this feature...

I must admit, it is certainly challenging to operate it in certain areas.... But, I am happy to have it and test it...


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## Bigriver (Jan 26, 2018)

SubTesla599 said:


> Strangely, yesterday I was limited to the Tesla speed. This morning I was not. I was able to set the speed to at least 10 mph over the Tesla limit.


Yes, I have found the same thing, as I noted in the post below. There are some roads for which the max speed is not capped at the speed limit when on autosteer and the new traffic light option is on. Since I made the post below, I have tested a few more times. I was able to set speed at least 15 mph over the speed limit, from which I conclude there is no upper max speed imposed. I found it for roads with speed limits of 35 mph, 40 mph and 45 mph. I found both 4 lane and 2 lane roads that did not limit the speed. And then some that do limit the speed, just as Tesla said it would.

Note that if on TACC only (no autosteer), the speed is not limited by the system, nor does Tesla say that it will be.



Bigriver said:


> Despite the release notes saying: "When this feature is enabled, the maximum set speed while using Autosteer is limited to the speed limit of the road," I inadvertently found that I could adjust the speed to higher than a 45 mph speed limit. Here is a capture at 6 mph above the speed limit. I didn't test how high it would let me go. It is probably coded differently for different roads. I'm guessing this road is somehow a slip-up.
> 
> Yes, I had the new traffic light / stop sign option on.
> View attachment 33682


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## TeslaTony310 (Jan 15, 2020)

SoFlaModel3 said:


> Frankly not driving a lot right now. Forced to speed limit on city roads is too slow. It's a bit abrupt stopping and still struggles with hard braking on cross traffic, like a brand new driver with a learner's permit.
> 
> I'll use it in spots to help with the "training process" to validate decisions, but overall it's not good enough yet.


Have you tried a reset of the computer?? Apparently it worked for someone on here.


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## skygraff (Jun 2, 2017)

Tried using it a little today so I could provide data. Still don’t like using TACC (let alone autosteer) on surface streets since even its highway driving isn’t reliable enough. Phantom braking on a mostly clear highway gives me enough worries about getting rear ended. When I was a driving instructor, we taught that the rear view mirror was a critical check during braking so it sure would be nice if the rear camera were added to the autopilot sensor array.

Anyway, aside from the confirmation required to go through a green light, I was pretty impressed with the new capabilities. It did accelerate a bit too quickly as the light turned green just when I approached a T exit off the highway so I had to disengage. It also keeps too much space between cars at a light/stop sign but, if you manually creep up, it jams on the brakes when you let up on the pedal; I did a bug report.

All in all, I hope this doesn’t get quashed by the regulators and worry warts. As long as users stay responsible and provide data, it’ll get better and safer (and recognize turn arrows). I will say, if nothing else, the display is helpful when they hang the lights just above my line of sight.


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## SoFlaModel3 (Apr 15, 2017)

TeslaTony310 said:


> Have you tried a reset of the computer?? Apparently it worked for someone on here.


A reset lifting the speed limit restriction?

I know the speed limit restriction is tied to autosteer as TACC doesn't have it. For now if I'm testing this out on city roads I'll just use TACC.


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## francoisp (Sep 28, 2018)

TomT said:


> The speed limit limitation makes it no-go around here...


Same here. Everybody around here drive 10 mph above the speed limit. I'm not sure why Tesla impose this limit 'cause it does allow 45 mph in a 45 mph zone so why not allow 45 mph in a 35 mph zone? Makes no sense.


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## TrevP (Oct 20, 2015)

I would be testing it but it's not available outside the US at the moment.


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## ibgeek (Aug 26, 2019)

After a few days of testing the new stoplight and stop sign feature for TACC and Autosteer, here are my findings.
*NOTE:* My testing thus far has been primarily with TACC

1. In most situations my Tesla was accurately reading the status of stop lights and stop signs.
2. Stopping at stop lights and stop signs (after I did a full power off restart of my car) seemed smooth with one exception that will be listed.
3. When stopped at a red stop light, provided you do not go over the limit line, you can tap the throttle to inch forward when needed. If you pass the limit line you will get a warning from the car and the car will proceed in to the intersection.
4. If you clear a green intersection, and the light turns yellow and it is clear that the light will turn read before you get to the intersection, the car will identify it and slow to a reasonable stop.
5. If you clear a green intersection, and the light turns yellow within a few yards of the limit line, the car will see the yellow but proceed through the intersection.
6. If you clear a green intersection, and the light turns yellow somewhere between #4 and #5, the car will alert you and aggressively stop. Basically this is that grey area between where it is safe to assume the light will still be yellow as you cross the intersection and where you know it will turn red before you clear the intersection. This could be a bit hazardous in slick conditions.
7. Stop light limit lines seem to be fairly accurately placed.
8. Stop sign limit lines tend to be a little to far back for my liking. Tapping the throttle does not allow you to inch forward like you can at a red light.
9. Interestingly I find that the car handles stop lights better than it handles stop signs. The exact opposite of what I would have expected. Mainly because of the limit line placement causing the car to stop a bit too far back.

Overall my experience with this beta has been mostly positive. I think the first iteration of lane changing was far more jarring that this new feature is, and now I use it nearly 100% when on the freeway. I can't remember the last time a lane change didn't go smoothly. I look forward to seeing this new feature improve.

Testing done in Northern California (San Francisco Bay Area) during light to moderate city traffic.


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## STUBBLEHEADEDMUTANT (Nov 18, 2018)

ibgeek said:


> After a few days of testing the new stoplight and stop sign feature for TACC and Autosteer, here are my findings.
> *NOTE:* My testing thus far has been primarily with TACC
> 
> 1. In most situations my Tesla was accurately reading the status of stop lights and stop signs.
> ...


Use it on autopilot all the time. Works great. See the stop notice out of corner of my eye and pull the stock when needed. No problem and I love it!


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## M3OC Rules (Nov 18, 2016)

It probably is safer because you're constantly monitoring the car instead of just driving. It's kind of the opposite of autopilot. I paid to beta test so I'm happy to have it and, like the visualizations, it's fun to see the progress as the car is learning.


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## TeslaTony310 (Jan 15, 2020)

SoFlaModel3 said:


> A reset lifting the speed limit restriction?
> 
> I know the speed limit restriction is tied to autosteer as TACC doesn't have it. For now if I'm testing this out on city roads I'll just use TACC.


No, I read on here that someone reset their computer, and it made the harsh and abrupt stopping go away.


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## ibgeek (Aug 26, 2019)

TeslaTony310 said:


> No, I read on here that someone reset their computer, and it made the harsh and abrupt stopping go away.


Yep, it did.


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## bsunny (Oct 8, 2018)

I voted “no” to testing it so far. Just got the software update a couple of hours ago (after getting Full Self Drive computer 2 days ago.) 
I plan to take her out for a fun ride this weekend to see what she can do!


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## ibgeek (Aug 26, 2019)

bsunny said:


> I voted "no" to testing it so far. Just got the software update a couple of hours ago (after getting Full Self Drive computer 2 days ago.)
> I plan to take her out for a fun ride this weekend to see what she can do!


Ease in to it. In the end I think you'll likely have everything turned on, but get your confidence built up before you start playing with the bleeding edge stuff.


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## SoFlaModel3 (Apr 15, 2017)

Circling back here, I have been using it with TACC rather than Autosteer since the speed limit restriction isn’t there. It has been solid at detecting stop signs and lights (100% success) but taking a turn at an intersection is “fun” to say the least. It goes from hard stop to quick acceleration to brake check to slow acceleration. 

Of course the intent here is to train stopping and I am pleased with that part!


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## Jason Krellner (Sep 8, 2018)

I've been using it and a lot of my findings are similar to ibgeek. I almost lost my lunch once when I pulled down the stalk approaching a green light, then it turned yellow and the car stopped ABRUPTLY. This might also be because I had my car set to go 10 over the speed limit. Otherwise, I've been impressed.

The weakness of the system, for me, is turning on a green light. You can't let the car stop, so you pull the stalk (or press the pedal) to clear it, but then the car wants to ramp up to the TACC speed, which obviously doesn't work for a turn. That means every time I approach a green light where I'm turning, I have to disengage the system completely. It works fine for turns (including right on red) if the light is red and you come to a stop (however in some intersections, it stops too far back to see if it's safe to turn right).

I'll continue to test this because it's exciting to be part of the future. For those who red the release notes and thought "that sounds terrible" - it's not. I was one of those people and I actually find it kind of fun to use it and "train" it.

I've only tested using TACC. In the Chicago area, you are a traffic hazard if you go the speed limit!


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## Sjohnson20 (Mar 8, 2018)

I used again today. It got confused on a road near my house with a stop sign that’s on a bike path. The stop sign was on the far left and not really pointing straight but it still thought it should stop. It even put the red line across the middle of the road. I just hit the stalk to override. 

They should probably be able to figure that out in a future version. If the stop sign is on the far left it should ignore. The signs to obey are on the right usually. Unless I’m forgetting certain circumstances.


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## littlD (Apr 17, 2016)

Sjohnson20 said:


> I used again today. It got confused on a road near my house with a stop sign that's on a bike path. The stop sign was on the far left and not really pointing straight but it still thought it should stop. It even put the red line across the middle of the road. I just hit the stalk to override.
> 
> They should probably be able to figure that out in a future version. If the stop sign is on the far left it should ignore. The signs to obey are on the right usually. Unless I'm forgetting certain circumstances.


That is an issue.

Definitely be "heads up" for intersections that aren't perpendicular. This is especially true for country roads. I had the car initiate braking a number of times in that situation.


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## M3OC Rules (Nov 18, 2016)

Sjohnson20 said:


> I used again today. It got confused on a road near my house with a stop sign that's on a bike path. The stop sign was on the far left and not really pointing straight but it still thought it should stop. It even put the red line across the middle of the road. I just hit the stalk to override.
> 
> They should probably be able to figure that out in a future version. If the stop sign is on the far left it should ignore. The signs to obey are on the right usually. Unless I'm forgetting certain circumstances.


This is the problem. A million edge cases. In my first trial, I was at a straight intersection and it decided to head for the bike lane which happened to be on a raised curb.


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## DocScott (Mar 6, 2019)

Jason Krellner said:


> I've been using it and a lot of my findings are similar to ibgeek. I almost lost my lunch once when I pulled down the stalk approaching a green light, then it turned yellow and the car stopped ABRUPTLY. This might also be because I had my car set to go 10 over the speed limit. Otherwise, I've been impressed.
> 
> The weakness of the system, for me, is turning on a green light. You can't let the car stop, so you pull the stalk (or press the pedal) to clear it, but then the car wants to ramp up to the TACC speed, which obviously doesn't work for a turn. That means every time I approach a green light where I'm turning, I have to disengage the system completely. It works fine for turns (including right on red) if the light is red and you come to a stop (however in some intersections, it stops too far back to see if it's safe to turn right).
> 
> ...


For a turn, could you use the thumbwheel to throttle the speed? I don't have FSD, but I use the thumbwheel to keep from having to disengage in some analogous situations.


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## bsunny (Oct 8, 2018)

DocScott said:


> For a turn, could you use the thumbwheel to throttle the speed? I don't have FSD, but I use the thumbwheel to keep from having to disengage in some analogous situations.


I've done both, depending on the situation. 
Exiting from highways has (almost) never worked within my tolerance even when I take a deep breath and tell myself to trust it, I often do a full abort before what seems like an inevitable crash (although probably not or we'd see a lot more Tesla paint smeared on concrete walls and guardrails. )
I haven't yet taken my M3 out with her new "hard and soft wear" 😉 but thanks to the great info posted here, I feel ready to proceed with caution.


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## M3OC Rules (Nov 18, 2016)

bsunny said:


> I often do a full abort before what seems like an inevitable crash


I know exactly what you're talking about. I have an exit where they messed up the lines and the lane shrinks in one spot going around a tight corner at 55mph. I normally cross the centerline and I've never gotten the nerve to try it on autopilot. If it's not moving over to anticipate going around something you have to assume it might hit it. The car is moving over in the lane for cars but not guardrails that I've seen. They just aren't there yet.


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## bwilson4web (Mar 4, 2019)

I have two profiles, "Bob" and "Bob-S", and switch based on conditions. Watching the regeneration line gives me an early clue to touch the accelerator. But without continue through a "Green" light or following a lead vehicle, I can't run it all the time. It also needs to render the "Yield" sign which it treats as a "Stop" sign.

Bob Wilson


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## TaccoBill (Jul 16, 2019)

Many traffic lights in my area are horizontal, not vertical, and the car is not able to see them at all.


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## francoisp (Sep 28, 2018)

TaccoBill said:


> Many traffic lights in my area are horizontal, not vertical, and the car is not able to see them at all.
> View attachment 33797


I'm surprised. In Quebec that's the way they are as well. Seems like a pretty normal use case.


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## SoFlaModel3 (Apr 15, 2017)

TaccoBill said:


> Many traffic lights in my area are horizontal, not vertical, and the car is not able to see them at all.
> View attachment 33797


Looks like Florida...? I haven't had any issues with horizontal lights down in South Florida.


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## Sjohnson20 (Mar 8, 2018)

Should bike lanes even have red stop signs that look just like the ones for cars? I even have to look twice sometimes when they are pointing towards the road if I’ve never driven that area. Seems like the bike lane could have a different sign.


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## GDN (Oct 30, 2017)

Sjohnson20 said:


> Should bike lanes even have red stop signs that look just like the ones for cars? I even have to look twice sometimes when they are pointing towards the road if I've never driven that area. Seems like the bike lane could have a different sign.


I like the idea and concept, but since bikes are supposed to follow the rules of the road it wouldn't make sense they'd have a different sign. Every biker wants autos to respect them and follow those rules, but you'll rarely find a biker stopping at a stop sign, so from that perspective it makes you wonder even why there is one there.


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## M3OC Rules (Nov 18, 2016)

GDN said:


> I like the idea and concept, but since bikes are supposed to follow the rules of the road it wouldn't make sense they'd have a different sign. Every biker wants autos to respect them and follow those rules, but you'll rarely find a biker stopping at a stop sign, so from that perspective it makes you wonder even why there is one there.


We have special stoplights for bikers in some areas and many different types of bike lanes. And right now a bunch of them are temporarily changed. From Tesla's perspective, they have no control over any of this at least for the foreseeable future so they need to be able to handle it all or very close to it.


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## Ken Voss (Feb 2, 2017)

I disabled it in settings, I find it very annoying that every-time I approach an intersection with a green light the car slows down trying to decide if it should continue or stop. Its just not nearly ready for prime time yet.


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## FRC (Aug 4, 2018)

Ken Voss said:


> I disabled it in settings, I find it very annoying that every-time I approach an intersection with a green light the car slows down trying to decide if it should continue or stop. Its just not nearly ready for prime time yet.


It's not intended to be ready for prime time yet(BETA). The Tesla advantage is that, with the fleets help, additional functions can be made "ready for prime time" much more quickly.


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## garsh (Apr 4, 2016)

Ken Voss said:


> I disabled it in settings, I find it very annoying that every-time I approach an intersection with a green light the car slows down trying to decide if it should continue or stop. Its just not nearly ready for prime time yet.


I think you misunderstand the current state of the feature. It's not "deciding" anything. It's purposefully slowing down no matter the color of the light, and relying on the driver to confirm if it's safe to continue.


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## Mikey (Sep 30, 2017)

It's kind of not very useful that it does not turn left or right on its own after the hint to go. I can't keep going straight . I also noticed the car hugs a bit too close to the sidewalk parked cars for my liking and sometimes it thinks the parked cars are in front of it on the same lane so it would stop completely. Oh yes, and the speed inconsistency after traffic light or intersection. I would train it when my two years old is not in the car as you do need to pay extra attention with the feature enabled and on. It does show how difficult city driving is for autopilot. Now the car acts like a teenager just started driving school


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## skygraff (Jun 2, 2017)

Yeah, turns are a problem. Beyond the speed issue, if the light is green but you're turning left, you typically pull into the intersection and wait for traffic to allow your turn. Unless you disable TACC, clearing the stop line will result in full acceleration so you have to hit the brake and disable TACC anyway. Hopefully, the next iteration will have the system pay attention to internal turn signals as well as the traffic lights with turn arrows.

Side note, as a cyclist, I always obey the stop signs on regular roads and bike trails. Sure wish the average motorist wouldn't slow/stop at bike trail intersections when the bike trail has a stop sign. Always happens after waiting for my chance to cross with the zippy cars and timing it for right after the next car when that one decides to slow down (not quite stop) so I get stuck because of opposite traffic. I usually shake my head and point at the octagonal sign next to me but the driver doesn't get it and gets annoyed with my continued waiting. [/rant]


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## MelindaV (Apr 2, 2016)

M3OC Rules said:


> We have special stoplights for bikers in some areas and many different types of bike lanes. And right now a bunch of them are temporarily changed. From Tesla's perspective, they have no control over any of this at least for the foreseeable future so they need to be able to handle it all or very close to it.


Portland has a similar bike traffic light (but looks like a bike icon) where the bike lane crosses a freeway on-ramp lane. haven't been thru any intersections with it since the update to see how it would react.









and also most intersections on bike routes in the city have the green bike boxes, with the stop line behind it. Haven't seen how tesla deals with these yet either. 









and @GDN, there was a local law passed here last year that now permits bikes to run thru stop signs and signals, treating than as a yield. They did it before anyway, so this just makes it legal for them to do it.


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## GDN (Oct 30, 2017)

@MelindaV Thanks for the pictures and clarifying. I was just going to ask if the cyclists paid any attention to them and you answered that already. The new law is a piece of S**T, just saying. All it does is give a jury to rubber stamp to see you guilty for something that is not always at fault. A cyclist moving at speed that can see an intersection is clear may not be in your mirror or sights, but by the time you do your due diligence to determine the path is clear - they can come out of a blind spot and collide with you, but it will be your fault.

I wouldn't be against cyclists so much if they were depended on for true transportation and it may be more so there or in actual city areas, but some very very large percentage are not used for transportation. It is a form of exercise. I could still buy that if they followed the rules of the road, they do not here and you noted they didn't there either.

Here is the problem - a person on a bike and a vehicle colliding will never fare well for the biker. So it's just easier to blame the person in the vehicle or create bad laws in favor of the cyclist vs making the cyclist take any responsibility for thier actions.


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## Long Ranger (Jun 1, 2018)

MelindaV said:


> Portland has a similar bike traffic light (but looks like a bike icon) where the bike lane crosses a freeway on-ramp lane. haven't been thru any intersections with it since the update to see how it would react.


Seattle has a number of those exact same bike signals on protected bike lanes. I drove past several of them yesterday and didn't notice anything unusual, but I need to do better testing on that. The car did continue on straight through green lights once I authorized it even though the bike signal on the side was red. But then again, the car doesn't seem to care a lot about the color of signals.

A good test might be to see what happens if the bike signal changes from green to yellow after I've authorized going through the green (with the main traffic light still green). Also need to test how it handles the traffic arrow changing vs. bike signal.


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## MelindaV (Apr 2, 2016)

GDN said:


> @MelindaV Thanks for the pictures and clarifying. I was just going to ask if the cyclists paid any attention to them and you answered that already. The new law is a piece of S**T, just saying. All it does is give a jury to rubber stamp to see you guilty for something that is not always at fault. A cyclist moving at speed that can see an intersection is clear may not be in your mirror or sights, but by the time you do your due diligence to determine the path is clear - they can come out of a blind spot and collide with you, but it will be your fault.
> 
> I wouldn't be against cyclists so much if they were depended on for true transportation and it may be more so there or in actual city areas, but some very very large percentage are not used for transportation. It is a form of exercise. I could still buy that if they followed the rules of the road, they do not here and you noted they didn't there either.
> 
> Here is the problem - a person on a bike and a vehicle colliding will never fare well for the biker. So it's just easier to blame the person in the vehicle or create bad laws in favor of the cyclist vs making the cyclist take any responsibility for thier actions.


I would say Portland is one of those places where bikes truly are used for transportation by a specific section of the population. Portland's city core is divided in half by a river, and there are multiple bridges accessible to bikes. two of the bridges have bike counters. Here's the snapshot of the Hawthorne Bridge for the last year. You can see there is a slight drop in the winter, but not significant vs summer months. (the spike on the day in August is "Bridge Pedal", with routes across all of Portland's bridges - ranging from a couple miles to about 25 miles.)










the new bike running-thru-the-light law does still put the liability on the bike, if they run a light and did not have the right-of-way. but I also think it is dumb. there is no reason a bike should be able to avoid following the signals any more than a car. and I think they actually are supposed to come to a stop before proceeding thru the intersection, but I could be wrong.


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## TetonTesla (Nov 18, 2018)

I’ve been using it for a few days and a couple of observations.

1) It is a BETA for a REASON. And I treat it as such. I‘m happy to help train the system to be better, but I keep my hands on the wheel and am prepared to take over at any second.
2) A lot of our stop lights and stop signs where I am do not have stop lines painted on the road, so it is “guessing” where to stop based on the sign. As a result, it tends to stop about 15-20 feet sooner than a normal human driver would. This will get better I suspect. But would be nice to have an option to “creep forward” after it stops as others have suggested.
3) The stopping for red lights is rather abrupt. I suspect this will get better too. I find that AP stops smoothly if there is a car ahead of you stopped at the light. Hopefully it will eventually stop at lights/stop signs the same way.
4) When AP is engaged at it comes to a stop, it has been pulling to the left for some reason.
5) I’ve definitely seen an increase in “phantom braking” with this feature enabled. I think sometimes it sees stop signs on side roads, or bike paths adjacent to the road, and will momentarily brake before it decides to continue. This should also improve with time & future upgrades.
6) Because of the reasons above... I plan to use this only when I’m in the car by myself, traffic is light, and see it as an exercise in improving the system for everyone. For now, I’m not going to use it with the wife in the car... My wife hates it when car drives erratically...

But for first beta public release... this is pretty dang impressive start IMHO.


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## Jason Krellner (Sep 8, 2018)

Yes, I can only use this when I'm along. My wife would tell me to shut it off within minutes.

One more thing that drives me crazy is its handling of railroad crossings. I suppose it's better than stopping, but it slows excessively through the crossing (and displays something like "slowing for traffic control"). If it didn't slow down so much, this might be OK, but I feel as if I would get honked at under normal (non-pandemic) traffic conditions.


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## TetonTesla (Nov 18, 2018)

TetonTesla said:


> I've been using it for a few days and a couple of observations.


7) This setting doesn't seem to be sticky. I need to turn it back on at the start of every drive. That may be as-intended, but should be easy to change so it is saved.


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## MelindaV (Apr 2, 2016)

Jason Krellner said:


> If it didn't slow down so much, this might be OK, but I feel as if I would get honked at under normal (non-pandemic) traffic conditions.


just tap the accelerator when the alert pops up on the screen, and it will continue without slowing at all.


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## MelindaV (Apr 2, 2016)

in my neighborhood, the school zone sign has two flashing lights (in traffic light style shrouds) and driving past it this afternoon the car saw it as a traffic light (even though there were no lights on. the last time I was out, it didn't do this, so possibly there are some additional types of signals it started to recognize with 2020.12.11.1 (that installed earlier today)


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## ibgeek (Aug 26, 2019)

If you have metering lights on your freeways. Please be mindful of them with this feature.


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## Sjohnson20 (Mar 8, 2018)

So today I drove the same road with the bike lane stop sign and the car ignored it this time! Did it learn since last week? There are many Teslas in my area. Very exciting!


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## francoisp (Sep 28, 2018)

MelindaV said:


> in my neighborhood, the school zone sign has two flashing lights (in traffic light style shrouds) and driving past it this afternoon the car saw it as a traffic light (even though there were no lights on. the last time I was out, it didn't do this, so possibly there are some additional types of signals it started to recognize with 2020.12.11.1 (that installed earlier today)
> View attachment 33836


Where I live in Northern Ohio, I have the same behavior with a flashing school zone warning light that's hanging in the middle of the street. Also the car has confused lights on railroad crossings with traffic lights. I'm on 12.6.


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## francoisp (Sep 28, 2018)

While on TACC I've had several instances where after I've hit the stalk to allow the car to proceed through the intersection, the car kept wanting to slow down, even after repeatedly hitting the stalk. I had to use the accelerator to force the car to go on. I ended up having to turn TACC off and on again. It's a bit erratic. Version 12.6


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## MelindaV (Apr 2, 2016)

FrancoisP said:


> Where I live in Northern Ohio, I have the same behavior with a flashing school zone warning light that's hanging in the middle of the street. Also the car has confused lights on railroad crossings with traffic lights. I'm on 12.6.


i believe it is reacting to the RR-Xing by design. It wants you to confirm it is a safe "intersection" just the same as a car intersection.


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## skygraff (Jun 2, 2017)

I’ve decided to stop testing this.

The early stops, late starts, double stops, unpredictable and/or overzealous acceleration after stops (especially on turns), stopping for signs on side roads, and aggressively hard braking isn’t safe yet for live traffic testing. It doesn’t bother me (no passengers) but those I’m sharing road with are undoubtedly loosing patience and it’s probably giving Tesla a bad name.

They haven’t said so but I sure hope this system is learning even when not engaged (like the rest of the autopilot system) because it needs to get a handle on “gentle.”

That said, I’ve been very impressed with how well it’s identifying stop lines even when they’re not painted. Excellent job programming the logic there! One incredible example was at a 5-way intersection with a spiderweb of hanging lights and a railroad crossing where it correctly placed an unpainted stop line.

Will check back with the next update but, for now, I’ll stay smooth and avoid using the brakes.


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## Drake12321 (Apr 2, 2020)

Yes, sometimes I use it, but it’s a privilege, not a necessity ..


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## TeslaTony310 (Jan 15, 2020)

Sjohnson20 said:


> So today I drove the same road with the bike lane stop sign and the car ignored it this time! Did it learn since last week? There are many Teslas in my area. Very exciting!


No, it did not. That isn't how NNs work....


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## FRC (Aug 4, 2018)

I would like to see the red stop line displayed at the same time as the notification that slowing is imminent. I override with the accelerator, and I can't be sure that I've overridden until I see that the stop line is grey not red.


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## harrison987 (Jun 30, 2018)

It is cool...but I do not use it. I find annoying that it stops at all lights, regardless of color, and I have to use the lever to cancel/proceed.


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## ibgeek (Aug 26, 2019)

harrison987 said:


> It is cool...but I do not use it. I find annoying that it stops at all lights, regardless of color, and I have to use the lever to cancel/proceed.


Or just tap the accelerator.


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## Klaus-rf (Mar 6, 2019)

RichEV said:


> Please answer only if you have the TLaSSC feature available. At least firmware release 2020.12.6, with HW3.


 I now have 2020.12.10 (which. mathematically, is higher than 2020.12.6) installed with HW3 and do not see this setting.

Where is it hiding?


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## ibgeek (Aug 26, 2019)

I believe that 2020.12.10 does not have the stoplight feature. 2020.12.11 and higher do though. Not sure why this was done but there you go.


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## bwilson4web (Mar 4, 2019)

I have two profiles, one with and one without. If I'm headed into an area with a high density of traffic lights, I use it as a gentle reminder. But when on a faster, divide road with sparse lights, I'm back to regular TACC/Auto-steer. 

Bob Wilson


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## Sjohnson20 (Mar 8, 2018)

I think an optional tone or audible notification would be nice. I made a longer trip today and a couple times didn’t notice it was showing the message on screen. Just a little ding sound would be good. At least until it doesn’t need the confirmation.

I’m trying to decide if I like using the pedal to override and continue or the stalk. I don’t feel like the pedal is enough confirmation. Hitting the stalk seems more certain. I went back and forth using both but can’t pick one.


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## Klaus-rf (Mar 6, 2019)

Sjohnson20 said:


> I'm trying to decide if I like using the pedal to override and continue or the stalk. I don't feel like the pedal is enough confirmation. Hitting the stalk seems more certain. I went back and forth using both but can't pick one.


 Do "Odd Day / Even Day".

On all Odd Numbered days use the stalk only, Even Days only use the pedal.


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## Garlan Garner (May 24, 2016)

I use it all of the time. Not necessarily because its perfect, but because I like to give Tesla all of the data that I can.....so they can improve it.


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## M3OC Rules (Nov 18, 2016)

Sjohnson20 said:


> So today I drove the same road with the bike lane stop sign and the car ignored it this time! Did it learn since last week? There are many Teslas in my area. Very exciting!





TeslaTony310 said:


> No, it did not. That isn't how NNs work....


Just to clarify this point the neural net(NN) does work this way but not in between updates. And the process is not automatic so it takes much more than a week.


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## Garlan Garner (May 24, 2016)

M3OC Rules said:


> Just to clarify this point the neural net(NN) does work this way but not in between updates. And the process is not automatic so it takes much more than a week.


There are updates to the software that does indeed come between updates. It's rolled out all of the time from Tesla.

If there is a piece of software that you already have....it can be updated without an update.

For example: If you see traffic lights on your screen as you drive. Tesla has updated the traffic lights to where they are brighter and more pronounced than before. This did not require a "software update". It happened between updates without many peoples knowledge.

This is a video from Third Row Tesla where they are interviewing a former software person from Tesla. Listen to 17:00 through 19:00.


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## iChris93 (Feb 3, 2017)

Garlan Garner said:


> For example: If you see traffic lights on your screen as you drive. Tesla has updated the traffic lights to where they are brighter and more pronounced than before. This did not require a "software update".


I do not think this example is true. I believe this came because of an update.

In general, it is true though that some things can change without an update.


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## Garlan Garner (May 24, 2016)

iChris93 said:


> I do not think this example is true. I believe this came because of an update.
> 
> In general, it is true though that some things can change without an update.


What can I say?

Maybe the software guy was lying in the video. The larger stop lights was his reference.


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## Tesla4Me! (Jul 29, 2017)

TetonTesla said:


> 7) This setting doesn't seem to be sticky. I need to turn it back on at the start of every drive. That may be as-intended, but should be easy to change so it is saved.


At least in my car, the setting for this feature is saved in my profile. Do you perhaps have multiple profiles (such as easy exit)?


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## Lchamp (Nov 10, 2019)

I use it whenever I can. I like to help train the system, and the system needs a lot of training right now.


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## ConnorE (Mar 28, 2019)

One thing I want to share with everyone is even though
it is somewhat counterintuitive, using the accelerator gives a whole lot more control over the car when this feature is on. For example, while turning the corners at traffic lights, we all see the same rapid acceleration when you use the stalk to signal the car to start/continue driving. However, if you press the accelerator (not tapping, but rather keeping the pressure constant) as if you are driving normally, the car allows you to control the speed until you let go the accelerator completely. So if you are turning the corner at 5m/hr, the car does NOT accelerate to 30m/hr until you let go the accelerator. If you never let go the accelerator, the car never takes over the speed control unless you come to a stop sign. It even decelerates as you press the pedal less. So the experience is much smoother if you use the accelerator. Same is true for traffic lights on a straight road. For example in Chicago there is an intersection (Ogden, Milwaukee and Chicago) where there are two traffic lights back to back (within less than 50 feet). If I hit the accelerator and keep a light pressure on it, the car smoothly sails through the intersection. Otherwise you feel like you will throw up with all the stopping and going. not to mention the other angry drivers who treat you like a moron.

Obviously this does not solve the problem of turning a corner without a stop sign or a traffic light. You have to pull the breaks for that. I hope next will be a feature where braking will engage the regen braking first and a full brake if needed but will not disengage the TACC or auto steer system. Honestly the stalk should only be used to set the speed to the maximum allowed for that road. So when you let the accelerator go at 15 m/hr, the car should just continue at that speed until you pull the stalk to jump to the max speed or play with the adjuster on the steering wheel. The speed adjuster on the steering wheel is not a good way to adjust speed in a moments notice. I feel it is a bit dangerous as there is some delay. I would have preferred a system that lets me drive it as I want it but does not let me miss the stop sign or the red or yellow traffic lights.


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## Sjohnson20 (Mar 8, 2018)

Garlan Garner said:


> I use it all of the time. Not necessarily because its perfect, but because I like to give Tesla all of the data that I can.....so they can improve it.


Yeah same here. I'm not driving as much anyways with the virus lockdowns so when I do I'm happy to do something lol


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## Sjohnson20 (Mar 8, 2018)

I noticed the brighter lights they are much better now! I don’t know when that happend though since I’ve had 2 updates in the last few weeks and don’t drive much right now.


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## M3OC Rules (Nov 18, 2016)

Garlan Garner said:


> What can I say?
> 
> Maybe the software guy was lying in the video. The larger stop lights was his reference.


Thanks for posting that. His example is not obvious to me. The original posted question was whether the cars are collecting data, feeding it into the training, and then the new NN being updated in cars without an obvious update. A single config variable could change the brightness of the stoplight or the size. I'm not saying it does but it's not clear what they are and aren't changing. He also says you won't notice the changes but his example is something you might notice. If they are changing detection of objects then that's also something you might notice which was the original question.

I would think @greentheonly could tell how often and what they are updating but I haven't seen anything that answers this question one way or the other.
1096455149315330049[/MEDIA]]February 15, 2019


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## Jimbydude (Aug 8, 2018)

As I understand NNs the reason your car doesn't "learn", isn't because it can't but because it would do no good for Tesla.
A traditional program can separate 'data' from 'program', therefore you can update the app/firmware and re-apply or migrate the data but a NN but the data and the program are one in the same, it's the structure of the nodes/connections that encode the data.

So a NN can indeed learn, but there is not way to map that onto another NN. That's why a NN, that has been trained at Tesla, a single source is then rolled out.

Note 1 that the car isn't a big NN, it's a combination of traditional code + NNs (to classif etc), hence config and other stuff can be saved.

Note 2 Sounds good in my head anyway


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## garsh (Apr 4, 2016)

Jimbydude said:


> As I understand NNs the reason your car doesn't "learn", isn't because it can't but because it would do no good for Tesla.


The car literally can't learn.

Training a neural net requires an immense amount of data and processor cycles. Much more than a single vehicle can contain. The vehicles are just data-collection devices (when it comes to the topic of _training_ a neural net).


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1224050025564725248


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## ibgeek (Aug 26, 2019)

It would be reckless (at this point) to have the cars modify their own behavior. Any data acquired must be screened first to make sure that changes that get made are safe and legal.


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## Jimbydude (Aug 8, 2018)

garsh said:


> The car literally can't learn.
> 
> Training a neural net requires an immense amount of data and processor cycles. Much more than a single vehicle can contain. The vehicles are just data-collection devices (when it comes to the topic of _training_ a neural net).
> 
> ...


I was really trying to give a general answer regarding NNs, and what they can and can't do, but I totally agree with your comment.


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## Klaus-rf (Mar 6, 2019)

Using it every time I drive the car. It's important to have faith that it will see the stop sign and I was never very good at religion stuff. We both get to learn.


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## NickJonesS71 (May 11, 2020)

Tried a few days worth. Way to much of a headache I'd rather just drive the car


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## Klaus-rf (Mar 6, 2019)

LOTS more phantom braking and panic braking with frequent LOUD panic beeping (like the emergency avoidance braking sound) with a very short time on display message that's impossible to read unless you look at the screen as soon as the bleeping starts. 

Some category B signals (inactive (dark) signals at crosswalks, fire stations, etc) it normally slows for, some it totally ignores and others it panic stops for (late).

I also see many times it will panic stop for side jogger/bike path stop signs (smaller, but facing towards us). 

Occasionally it will stop at cross streets that do not have stop signs. 

And of course the phantom panic braking. No idea why as I don't see anything that I think could be causing it to panic. No shadows, no overhead stuff, no road signs, no bicycles, not lane drifting, no close traffic (nothing closer than 50 meters) - Thanks, COVID!...


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## WonkoTheSane (Nov 14, 2018)

My big issue is Yield signs. It does NOT like to go through yield signs, even with hitting the gear selector many times.


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## FRC (Aug 4, 2018)

I've adapted pretty well to proceeding through green lights with the accelerator. But I now disengage autopilot when approaching a red light because of late and heavy braking; I'd rather save the brakes and let regen do that work. As for stop signs, fugetaboutit, not worth using at this point, IMHO.


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## ConnorE (Mar 28, 2019)

WonkoTheSane said:


> My big issue is Yield signs. It does NOT like to go through yield signs, even with hitting the gear selector many times.


Keep a constant but light pressure on the accelerator. It may slow down a little but it will go through. Stalk is not working smoothly in those situations. I also get a similar problem at stop signs at intersections. The car sees two stop signs (one for me and the other for the incoming traffic) and stops at both signs (25 feet apart). When I keep the pressure on the accelerator (slightly nothing too heavy), then the car moves along but does tell me that it will not stop if I keep pressing the accelerator.


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## skygraff (Jun 2, 2017)

Call me stupid but I tried it again the other day on a limited access road with a local lane to the side.

Approaching an intersection, it tried to stop after I'd cleared the message because the local lane had a red light; no big deal. Then, at the next intersection where the express lane used a viaduct to bypass traffic, my car aggressively braked at the top because it could kind of see the traffic light below (don't know whether it was the local lane or cross traffic's light).

Hope the NN learned something because I'm retreating to my respective corner again.


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## ateslik (Apr 13, 2018)

Sounds great! Take my extra $1000! /s


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## ibgeek (Aug 26, 2019)

ateslik said:


> Sounds great! Take my extra $1000! /s


hint... that's not what the extra 1K is for.


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## iChris93 (Feb 3, 2017)

ibgeek said:


> hint... that's not what the extra 1K is for.


Pray tell.


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## ibgeek (Aug 26, 2019)

iChris93 said:


> Pray tell.


Unfortunately I can't. Lets just say I'm within a few miles of the Fremont plant and I know some people. Sometimes I hear things.


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## Klaus-rf (Mar 6, 2019)

ibgeek said:


> Unfortunately I can't. Lets just say I'm within a few miles of the Fremont plant and I know some people. Sometimes I hear things.


 You hear The Voices too??


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## cabbie (Feb 17, 2019)

I keep trying to use it but the car slows down too much at green lights. Once it nearly stopped at green and I was worried about getting rear ended. If there is an oncoming car that wants to turn left that driver does not know if i'm stopping or slowing or what! Tapping the accelerator helps but does not always work well. Definitely a work in progress.


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## iChris93 (Feb 3, 2017)

cabbie said:


> I keep trying to use it but the car slows down too much at green lights. Once it nearly stopped at green and I was worried about getting rear ended. If there is an oncoming car that wants to turn left that driver does not know if i'm stopping or slowing or what! Tapping the accelerator helps but does not always work well. Definitely a work in progress.


Are you aware that the current implementation is designed to stop at all lights, regardless of color? You have to confirm you want to go through a green light by pressing the accelerator or pressing down on the gear selector.


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## FRC (Aug 4, 2018)

I'll continue to use it around home for Tesla's benefit, but on a recent road trip, it was so annoying that I was compelled to turn it off.


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## francoisp (Sep 28, 2018)

Near my home, there is a single flashing yellow light (a warning light) that hangs above the road. The car identifies it as a standard traffic light and shows it as a red light. As I approach the flashing light the cars slows down and I have to push the accelerator to go through it. My question is: how does this light configuration get integrated by Tesla so it is dismissed? Do the Tesla programmers review these instances i.e. "a red light was detected but the driver drove through it"?


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## FRC (Aug 4, 2018)

Right now the car stops at all lights red, green, and yellow. As I see it, stopping at yellow is not worse than stopping at green. I do wonder what would be the correct way to handle a yellow light intersection? Blow through it, slow down through it, or require affirmative input to continue?


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## francoisp (Sep 28, 2018)

FRC said:


> Right now the car stops at all lights red, green, and yellow. As I see it, stopping at yellow is not worse than stopping at green. I do wonder what would be the correct way to handle a yellow light intersection? Blow through it, slow down through it, or require affirmative input to continue?


I am not sure if you're responding to my posting, but just to sure, in the situation I described it's not a traffic light: it's a simple warning yellow light that's flashing to get our attention and we should always drive through it. There is only one light, one globe, there are no red or green lights.


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## FRC (Aug 4, 2018)

FrancoisP said:


> I am not sure if you're responding to my posting, but just to sure, in the situation I described it's not a traffic light: it's a simple warning yellow light that's flashing to get our attention and we should always drive through it. There is only one light, one globe, there are no red or green lights.


Yes, I was responding to your post. A flashing yellow light means "proceed with caution" a green light means "proceed". So why would this software stopping on a flashing yellow be more unusual than it stopping on green. Right now Tesla is training the fleet to recognize all the various lights(and stopping at all of them), while still putting the onus on us operators to decide how to proceed.


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## francoisp (Sep 28, 2018)

FRC said:


> Yes, I was responding to your post. A flashing yellow light means "proceed with caution" a green light means "proceed". So why would this software stopping on a flashing yellow be more unusual than it stopping on green. Right now Tesla is training the fleet to recognize all the various lights(and stopping at all of them), while still putting the onus on us operators to decide how to proceed.


My question was, how will Tesla know that stopping on this light should never happen because it's not a traffic light.


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## FRC (Aug 4, 2018)

FrancoisP said:


> My question was, how will Tesla know that stopping on this light should never happen because it's not a traffic light.


My presumption is that it will be programmed to continue through a flashing yellow just as it will through a green.


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## GDN (Oct 30, 2017)

FrancoisP said:


> My question was, how will Tesla know that stopping on this light should never happen because it's not a traffic light.


This is where Tesla will be better than you are. There are many times you should stop at these lights. There are yellow flashing lights at crosswalks. The yellow light is to get your attention and say caution, and if the crosswalk is occupied you should stop. So stopping is the appropriate action. How will they truly decide in the future what to do? Likely the car will slow and if no pedestrians are detected (you know it does that) then it would proceed with caution. If they are detected it will stop until the path is clear.


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## GDN (Oct 30, 2017)

For reference - this is the CA DMV, just went there as it was the first response from Google and Tesla is based there. https://www.dmv.ca.gov/portal/dmv/detail/pubs/hdbk/traff_lgts_sgns
Flashing Yellow-A flashing yellow traffic signal light warns you to "PROCEED WITH CAUTION." Slow down and be alert before entering the intersection. Yield to any pedestrians, bicyclists, or vehicles in the intersection. You do not need to stop for a flashing yellow traffic signal light.

The Yield to any Pedestrians, bicyclists or vehicles dictate that the car would need to stop.


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## garsh (Apr 4, 2016)

Canadians getting this feature on Thursday (Elon Standard Time).


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1269182713421893634


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## iChris93 (Feb 3, 2017)

garsh said:


> Canadians getting this feature on Thursday (Elon Standard Time).
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1269182713421893634


Note, he did not say which Thursday.


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## FRC (Aug 4, 2018)

garsh said:


> Canadians getting this feature on Thursday (Elon Standard Time).
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1269182713421893634


I thought Elon had sworn off twitter for a while. Another type of Elon time? How long is a while?


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## garsh (Apr 4, 2016)

FRC said:


> I thought Elon had sworn off twitter for a while. Another type of Elon time? How long is a while?


I think he was off for a good 48 hours.
That's quite a while for him.


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## Klaus-rf (Mar 6, 2019)

iChris93 said:


> Note, he did not say which Thursday.


 I just gotta know - Is there an Elon Daylight Time (EDT vs EST)(??


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## GDN (Oct 30, 2017)

FRC said:


> I thought Elon had sworn off twitter for a while. Another type of Elon time? How long is a while?


He is back. You would think with The Boring company, Tesla and putting 2 men into orbit he would be busy enough.


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## Kernal7 (Sep 16, 2018)

All, can you give me some guidance? I had my M3 AWD upgraded to FSD 3.0 yesterday, but now SW settings for "Traffic light and stop sign control" say "Traffic light and stop sign control requires updated maps. Connect to WiFi to download latest maps." I have connected to WiFi and have downloaded the latest maps. My Software screen says that I am "up to date". I have done the full reboot (both thumb wheels and brake reboot) but there is no change. Any ideas how to get past this issue?

Thanks in advance,
Steve


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## littlD (Apr 17, 2016)

Kernal7 said:


> All, can you give me some guidance? I had my M3 AWD upgraded to FSD 3.0 yesterday, but now SW settings for "Traffic light and stop sign control" say "Traffic light and stop sign control requires updated maps. Connect to WiFi to download latest maps." I have connected to WiFi and have downloaded the latest maps. My Software screen says that I am "up to date". I have done the full reboot (both thumb wheels and brake reboot) but there is no change. Any ideas how to get past this issue?
> 
> Thanks in advance,
> Steve
> ...


It takes time unfortunately. The version of maps you show is the correct minimum version that works with the feature.

For Middie, it took less than an hour for the car to suddenly decide it had the right version after all without an additional reboot or update.


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## Kernal7 (Sep 16, 2018)

littlD said:


> It takes time unfortunately. The version of maps you show is the correct minimum version that works with the feature.
> 
> For Middie, it took less than an hour for the car to suddenly decide it had the right version after all without an additional reboot or update.


Thanks! When I checked the car during lunch, everything was working fine.


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## Klaus-rf (Mar 6, 2019)

Kernal7 said:


> Thanks! When I checked the car during lunch, everything was working fine.


 So the car just needed a meal??


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## iChris93 (Feb 3, 2017)

Klaus-rf said:


> So the car just needed a meal??


I get that way too.


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## RichEV (Sep 21, 2017)

Is the new green light behavior in FW 24.6 converting any of the No/Seldom answers to Yes?


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## iChris93 (Feb 3, 2017)

RichEV said:


> Is the new green light behavior in FW 24.6 converting any of the No/Seldom answers to Yes?


Not for me, too aggressive.


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## ibgeek (Aug 26, 2019)

I really only use it in TACC mode not AP. Works fine for 99% of the stoplights I've come across and and 90% of the time for stop signs. Still need to be able to creep up on stop signs for better visibility in some cases.


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## bwilson4web (Mar 4, 2019)

After 2020.24.6.1, the 'follow lead vehicle' has been an improvement. Not perfect but it appears to be perfectible. 

As for summon, it needs some help. I suspect the bluetooth antenna can be blocked by the vehicle.

Bob Wilson


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## RichEV (Sep 21, 2017)

28.2 brings back the +5mph limit for autosteer! I've changed my vote to "mostly autosteer". This, and "following a lead car through green lights" makes the functionality much better.

For those not using the traffic light stopping feature, please give it another try when you get fw 28.


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## RichEV (Sep 21, 2017)

I wonder if removing the "stopping at green lights" limitation will happen before the autopilot rewrite is released?


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## evannole (Jun 18, 2018)

I got my HW3 upgrade yesterday, and made my first real drive with the stoplight/stop sign recognition feature today, on a drive to Trader Joe's. It was a good opportunity to test it, as after I go the three blocks to get out of my neighborhood to the main road, it's a straight shot about 7 miles out that main road, with a few twists but never an actual turn off the main road.

I waited for a mile or so before engaging it, as I live in our small historic downtown and there are too many pedestrians, congested areas and cross streets to make me feel confident about using this new feature. After a mile or so, the road becomes more of a large state road with plenty of traffic lights but not a lot of non-light controlled cross-traffic, making it a good place to experiment with this feature.

I was pleasantly surprised at how well it did. Acceleration and stopping were both a bit more abrupt than how I drive, but perfectly reasonable most of the time. Interestingly, I didn't have to confirm most of the green lights... The message telling me that the car would be slowing for the light would usually pop up, but about half the time the car would figure out that the light was green as we got closer and would continue through the intersection without slowing significantly and without my intervention. As we neared Trader Joe's, I was coming up on an intersection and could tell from the timer on the pedestrian crossing signal that the light would be turning yellow around the time I got to it. There was no one behind me, so I decided to see what the car would do, knowing that I could stop quickly on my own if I needed to. To my surprise, the car started slowing as soon as the light turned yellow, and came to a firm yet comfortable stop at exactly the right spot. This really impressed me - this was a situation where either going through the yellow OR stopping could be construed as the right move, and the car showed no indecision at all.

It did just as well on the way home, until we neared the city center and someone turned left in front of me. The car didn't like that at all, and I decided that I had experimented with it enough for the day.

I will probably leave this turned off most of the time, as I don't think it (or Autopilot in general) is ready for prime time in the relatively built-up areas where I am doing most of my driving these days. But I look forward to seeing it evolve and trying it out from time to time!


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## bwilson4web (Mar 4, 2019)

evannole said:


> . . .
> I will probably leave this turned off most of the time, as I don't think it (or Autopilot in general) is ready for prime time in the relatively built-up areas where I am doing most of my driving these days. But I look forward to seeing it evolve and trying it out from time to time!


Our 'smart' cars drive somewhat differently than the dumb ones we are used to driving. As one's seat time goes up, we begin to learn how to exploit the new capabilities. A learning experience, typically three weeks for me, it is important to share 'lessons learned.'

Our main North-South road has overpasses above the cross street intersections. About 10-20% of the time, the car will 'detect' the intersection traffic lights and try to slow to a stop without rendering the lights that it can not see. This is a side effect of the Google Map problem. This is one case I wish the regeneration bar was more visible so I could touch the accelerator quickly or flip down the right stalk.

Bob Wilson


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## ibgeek (Aug 26, 2019)

evannole said:


> I got my HW3 upgrade yesterday, and made my first real drive with the stoplight/stop sign recognition feature today, on a drive to Trader Joe's. It was a good opportunity to test it, as after I go the three blocks to get out of my neighborhood to the main road, it's a straight shot about 7 miles out that main road, with a few twists but never an actual turn off the main road.
> 
> I waited for a mile or so before engaging it, as I live in our small historic downtown and there are too many pedestrians, congested areas and cross streets to make me feel confident about using this new feature. After a mile or so, the road becomes more of a large state road with plenty of traffic lights but not a lot of non-light controlled cross-traffic, making it a good place to experiment with this feature.
> 
> ...


I'm glad you had a good experience. Just so you know, the panic when the car turned in front of you is not related to the stoplight/stop sign feature. That's behavior has been around for a while, but it should be fixed before the end of the year after the "4D" re-write is pushed. Autopilot on a freeway or most highways is rock solid. No issues at all. Stoplight /stop sign awareness does need more time although it's already improved greatly since it's initial release. 
The biggest issue with having that feature on is that you get unexpected behavior when ever you have AP on and there is a blinking yellow light. If the SP/SS awareness is turned off AP is fine.


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## bwilson4web (Mar 4, 2019)

ibgeek said:


> If the SP/SS awareness is turned off AP is fine.


I have two profiles, one with and one without SP/SS. Over time, I'm spending more than 50% with SP/SS and use the other profile when headed into traffic light 'grid lock.'

Bob Wilson

ps. Not my original idea but well worth the effort.


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## evannole (Jun 18, 2018)

ibgeek said:


> I'm glad you had a good experience. Just so you know, the panic when the car turned in front of you is not related to the stoplight/stop sign feature. That's behavior has been around for a while, but it should be fixed before the end of the year after the "4D" re-write is pushed. Autopilot on a freeway or most highways is rock solid. No issues at all. Stoplight /stop sign awareness does need more time although it's already improved greatly since it's initial release.
> The biggest issue with having that feature on is that you get unexpected behavior when ever you have AP on and there is a blinking yellow light. If the SP/SS awareness is turned off AP is fine.


Oh yes, fully agree. It's for this very reason (among others) that I've never been comfortable using AP in the city or even on rural divided highways that have cross streets in the 2+ years I have owned the car. AP on the highway does seem to be continually improving, and I am hoping for further refinement as the 4D re-write is pushed. This is actually the main reason I bought HW3 - I suspect that at some point, on-highway performance of HW2.5 and HW3 will diverge, and I would like it to continue to improve as much as possible. (Ironically, these days, I am not driving much on the highway at all; I have been to the office only once since March, and other than a brief day-trip to adopt a cat in Alabama, where we had excellent EAP performance, we haven't strayed more than 5 miles or so from home most weeks.)


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## ibgeek (Aug 26, 2019)

bwilson4web said:


> I have two profiles, one with and one without SP/SS. Over time, I'm spending more than 50% with SP/SS and use the other profile when headed into traffic light 'grid lock.'
> 
> Bob Wilson


That's a great idea!


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## M3OC Rules (Nov 18, 2016)

ibgeek said:


> Autopilot on a freeway or most highways is rock solid. No issues at all.


I'm not sure I'd agree. It still relies on map data which is not always correct. In my experience, these errors do not get fixed. I've had the same ones for years. There are also still issues with phantom braking. Many times I don't feel safe using it in construction areas. Most of the time it does work great but I'm having trouble convincing my wife to take a road trip because of autopilot. On that note, since this trip would be in January, do you think we will see changes to freeway autopilot and NOA with the initial "4D" rewrite?


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## iChris93 (Feb 3, 2017)

M3OC Rules said:


> It still relies on map data which is not always correct.


AP does _not_ rely on map data. NoA does, but just AP does not.


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## garsh (Apr 4, 2016)

iChris93 said:


> AP does _not_ rely on map data. NoA does, but just AP does not.


Well, it does for speed limits.


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## iChris93 (Feb 3, 2017)

garsh said:


> Well, it does for speed limits.


Sure, but can still drive on a road when it doesn't have mapped speed limits.


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## ibgeek (Aug 26, 2019)

M3OC Rules said:


> I'm not sure I'd agree. It still relies on map data which is not always correct. In my experience, these errors do not get fixed. I've had the same ones for years. There are also still issues with phantom braking. Many times I don't feel safe using it in construction areas. Most of the time it does work great but I'm having trouble convincing my wife to take a road trip because of autopilot. On that note, since this trip would be in January, do you think we will see changes to freeway autopilot and NOA with the initial "4D" rewrite?


I think a lot of this depends on where you are. The only time I every get any phantom breaking is if there is a blinking yellow light somewhere and I have traffic light and stop sign detection turned on. But it's just very mild taps not hard breaking. The first parts of the re-write should be in our hands by late October to early November of this year.

I do think you will see changes. For one speed limit signs will be read for speed rather than relaying solely on map data. The car will be able to correctly tag much more of the environment. BUT Dojo is really required for the biggest changes and that may be a few months in to the new year.


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## bwilson4web (Mar 4, 2019)

I found a reproducible way to cause a false brake event:

On access road leading to on-ramp of overpass.
Staying on access road leads to traffic lights
Taking on-ramp, the car leaves the access road where the traffic lights are located
On overpass, the car treats the empty lanes as having the traffic lights below
Regeneration gives the effect of stopping when you want the car to accelerate and merge with traffic
This is an obscure, edge case, but reproducible. Google shows where this happened:









Bob Wilson


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