# Ongoing EU Roadtrip by You You Xue



## Michael Russo

In the same recent post on the T≡SLA Model 3 Roadtrip Facebook page I referred to in another thread, You You mentions his upcoming European trip which we all await with eagerness on this side of the water...!

Quote
Europe country list will be released early next week. Finalising it now. Tesla will work with us to figure out charging. Still trying to get my hands on that adapter.
Unquote

Creating new thread, likely to come in handy when the real fun begins on this side of the water!!


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## Brokedoc

I don't know You You Xue but is he like some sort of mythical creature? At first he was hated and doubted because of possibly violating cars that didn't belong to him and saying he owned cars that weren't his. Now that people have met him on his US tour, everyone says he's a great guy and super nice and now he's planning a European Model 3 tour.

Anybody know what his story is? He looks like a young guy with no job and drives all over the place to let strangers sit in his expensive car.


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## Michael Russo

Brokedoc said:


> I don't know You You Xue but is he like some sort of mythical creature? At first he was hated and doubted because of possibly violating cars that didn't belong to him and saying he owned cars that weren't his. Now that people have met him on his US tour, everyone says he's a great guy and super nice and now he's planning a European Model 3 tour.
> 
> Anybody know what his story is? He looks like a young guy with no job and drives all over the place to let strangers sit in his expensive car.


It is intriguing indeed... dunno the story... yet I do know that we're all so desperate that we're willing all the past crap to sit in this expensive car if he is ready to make it available to us...


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## Bokonon

Brokedoc said:


> I don't know You You Xue but is he like some sort of mythical creature? At first he was hated and doubted because of possibly violating cars that didn't belong to him and saying he owned cars that weren't his. Now that people have met him on his US tour, everyone says he's a great guy and super nice and now he's planning a European Model 3 tour.


As someone who has progressed from having an unfavorable initial impression of him to a mostly-favorable ("appreciative") opinion after attending one of his events, the one thing I'll say is that he becomes much less of an enigma after you meet him in person and really get a good read of him.

After seeing his presentation, listening to the way he handles questions, and experiencing a test-ride with his narration, what became clear to me is that, for better and for worse, he values transparency and the free dissemination of information above all else. And he absolutely despises any barriers that are placed between him and achieving those ends. Anti-sell campaigns, misinformation, speed limits, social norms, even telling the truth himself... these are all barriers for him, and, for whatever reason, he feels completely unafraid and uninhibited to break them down when they get in his way.

I'm not a fan of him trespassing on private property or messing around with (and potentially scratching?) a stranger's car, regardless of the what information those pursuits yielded (and, truthfully, it wasn't anything of significance). Those are the kinds of stunts that most people do just for the attention, especially if they feel they are impervious to the consequences, which is why I originally wrote him off. But the Model 3 road trip, with its sheer scale and grueling schedule, was a different undertaking entirely, and it demonstrated (to me, at least) that he was more concerned about filling the information void created by Tesla's refusal to market (or even confirm basic information about) the Model 3 than he was with seeking attention for himself. In person, you can see in his eyes and hear in his voice that he truly believes what he is doing is in service of a noble cause, even if some of us (and the law) disagree with his methods, and find his style of communication off-putting.


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## Brokedoc

Bokonon said:


> As someone who has progressed from having an unfavorable initial impression of him to a mostly-favorable ("appreciative") opinion after attending one of his events, the one thing I'll say is that he becomes much less of an enigma after you meet him in person and really get a good read of him.
> 
> After seeing his presentation, listening to the way he handles questions, and experiencing a test-ride with his narration, what became clear to me is that, for better and for worse, he values transparency and the free dissemination of information above all else. And he absolutely despises any barriers that are placed between him and achieving those ends. Anti-sell campaigns, misinformation, speed limits, social norms, even telling the truth himself... these are all barriers for him, and, for whatever reason, he feels completely unafraid and uninhibited to break them down when they get in his way.
> 
> I'm not a fan of him trespassing on private property or messing around with (and potentially scratching?) a stranger's car, regardless of the what information those pursuits yielded (and, truthfully, it wasn't anything of significance). Those are the kinds of stunts that most people do just for the attention, especially if they feel they are impervious to the consequences, which is why I originally wrote him off. But the Model 3 road trip, with its sheer scale and grueling schedule, was a different undertaking entirely, and it demonstrated (to me, at least) that he was more concerned about filling the information void created by Tesla's refusal to market (or even confirm basic information about) the Model 3 than he was with seeking attention for himself. In person, you can see in his eyes and hear in his voice that he truly believes what he is doing is in service of a noble cause, even if some of us (and the law) disagree with his methods, and find his style of communication off-putting.


It takes a truly special person to do what he's currently doing having driven from California to Canada and back to the US and announcing his stops along the way. I give him lots of credit. Clearly he doesn't have kids or he couldn't do this. If he's married, he must have the most understanding wife in the world or she may be travelling with him. Clearly he doesn't have a normal job or he wouldn't be able to take weeks/months off to travel. It must have cost him $ to buy the car, charge, rent hotels, ship the car to Europe, etc. I wonder if he's a trust fund baby or ultra rich Youtuber or what...


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## Bokonon

Brokedoc said:


> It takes a truly special person to do what he's currently doing having driven from California to Canada and back to the US and announcing his stops along the way. I give him lots of credit. Clearly he doesn't have kids or he couldn't do this. If he's married, he must have the most understanding wife in the world or she may be travelling with him. Clearly he doesn't have a normal job or he wouldn't be able to take weeks/months off to travel. It must have cost him $ to buy the car, charge, rent hotels, ship the car to Europe, etc. I wonder if he's a trust fund baby or ultra rich Youtuber or what...


All I know about him and his background are that he is currently a student at a European university, and that his dad owns a restaurant in San Francisco.


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## Sandy

Brokedoc said:


> I don't know You You Xue but is he like some sort of mythical creature? At first he was hated and doubted because of possibly violating cars that didn't belong to him and saying he owned cars that weren't his. Now that people have met him on his US tour, everyone says he's a great guy and super nice and now he's planning a European Model 3 tour.
> 
> Anybody know what his story is? He looks like a young guy with no job and drives all over the place to let strangers sit in his expensive car.


Don't know his story but I'm just thrilled he let me drive it for 10 minutes with no restrictions. As well as sit in all the seats and play with the UI while it was charging. It was only -17 C (+1 F) outside in Kingston, Ontario that night. Very cool for him to let so many of us waiting for so long have exposure to the car.


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## Michael Russo

Update on the European trip via Elektrek: You You's car being shipped, road trip to start in the UK around mid-March. Charging will be more of a challenge as access to SC network seems uncertain... Still an exciting prospects for us.
Note that You You on his FB's page Model 3 Road Trip is asking for contributions to fund his trip... costing $5-7k for the round trip shipping alone... 
Think I'll pitch in a little something, for the greater good... 

Funny, round trip suggests the car is to return to the US. Not sure about the UK license plates then.

Tesla Model 3 is coming to Europe early with new unofficial road trip

https://electrek.co/2018/01/31/tesla-model-3-europe-road-trip/


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## Jayc

Looks like he is stopping by at our back garden  Just kidding, the newbridge stop is just 1 mile away which is not bad. Not bad at all.


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## Dash

Looks like he is gonna come here, too, although I don't know how to interpret the blue bubble pointy thing on the map.
Hope everything goes well. No Tesla technician can help him here ...


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## pjfw8

Dash said:


> Looks like he is gonna come here, too, although I don't know how to interpret the blue bubble pointy thing on the map.
> Hope everything goes well. No Tesla technician can help him here ...


By the way, You You is on "Judge Judy" today. (at least in the Western North Carolina/SC upstate area). Should be interesting.


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## MelindaV

pjfw8 said:


> By the way, You You is on "Judge Judy" today. (at least in the Western North Carolina/SC upstate area). Should be interesting.


why does this not come as a surprise at all? 
is he scheduled for Springer next week?


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## BluestarE3

pjfw8 said:


> By the way, You You is on "Judge Judy" today. (at least in the Western North Carolina/SC upstate area). Should be interesting.


Do you what is the nature of this case? Is he the plaintiff or the defendant?


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## pjfw8

BluestarE3 said:


> Do you what is the nature of this case? Is he the plaintiff or the defendant?


 He is the Plaintiff. He's suing a guy who punched him. You You was impolite to a guy at a restaurant and got punched. The judge gave You You $2000 but was not impressed with his manners.


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## Tom Bodera

Sandy said:


> Don't know his story but I'm just thrilled he let me drive it for 10 minutes with no restrictions. As well as sit in all the seats and play with the UI while it was charging. It was only -17 C (+1 F) outside in Kingston, Ontario that night. Very cool for him to let so many of us waiting for so long have exposure to the car.


Everyone has issues. I agree and I think it is great what You You is doing. I enjoyed my time and think he is doing great things for others.


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## pjfw8

Tom Bodera said:


> Everyone has issues. I agree and I think it is great what You You is doing. I enjoyed my time and think he is doing great things for others.


I drove his car in Greenville South Carolina. I really appreciate what he did. He was a great host.


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## youyouxue

Dash said:


> Looks like he is gonna come here, too, although I don't know how to interpret the blue bubble pointy thing on the map.
> Hope everything goes well. No Tesla technician can help him here ...


Blue bubble pointy thingy is just a marker for a general area/city that we are going to. We are not ready to specify certain locations yet as we are not sure if we will be able to use the Supercharger network.


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## youyouxue

Bokonon said:


> I'm not a fan of him trespassing on private property or messing around with (and potentially scratching?) a stranger's car, regardless of the what information those pursuits yielded (and, truthfully, it wasn't anything of significance). Those are the kinds of stunts that most people do just for the attention, especially if they feel they are impervious to the consequences, which is why I originally wrote him off. But the Model 3 road trip, with its sheer scale and grueling schedule, was a different undertaking entirely, and it demonstrated (to me, at least) that he was more concerned about filling the information void created by Tesla's refusal to market (or even confirm basic information about) the Model 3 than he was with seeking attention for himself. In person, you can see in his eyes and hear in his voice that he truly believes what he is doing is in service of a noble cause, even if some of us (and the law) disagree with his methods, and find his style of communication off-putting.


Glad to hear you came around, let's be clear that I have never "messed around" with a stranger's car, and the reddit moderator who tried to drive home that narrative has backed off on those allegations himself. People were trying to play Internet detective and pointed out the fact that the video of me removing the aero caps was filmed in the dark with one hand, and therefore it must be without permission... Not sure how that made any sense but it was the first time that someone had shown how the caps were removed and it helped a lot of people in the process.


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## Michael Russo

youyouxue said:


> Blue bubble pointy thingy is just a marker for a general area/city that we are going to. We are not ready to specify certain locations yet as we are not sure if we will be able to use the Supercharger network.


Understand and thankful you're doing this for all us impatient Europeans!
Look forward to meet you somewhere close to a blue bubble pointy thingy at some point!


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## KarenRei

youyouxue said:


> Glad to hear you came around, let's be clear that I have never "messed around" with a stranger's car, and the reddit moderator who tried to drive home that narrative has backed off on those allegations himself. People were trying to play Internet detective and pointed out the fact that the video of me removing the aero caps was filmed in the dark with one hand, and therefore it must be without permission... Not sure how that made any sense but it was the first time that someone had shown how the caps were removed and it helped a lot of people in the process.


I suppose that there's no way to tempt you to stop in Iceland en route?  If I may try:

1) It might turn out to be cheaper to ship the car to Iceland and then take the ferry to the mainland than shipping to the mainland. It's worth checking.

2) Power here is all renewable (geo and hydro).

3) The country looks like this.

4) We're trying to get Tesla's attention to come here (Ring Road superchargers, 1x service centre). Your trip would help!

5) I can at least guarantee you free tours, and might be able to cover meals / lodgings as well (would have to talk to some of the other local EV people if you expressed interest in coming  )

6) You can't supercharge either way, so our lack of them doesn't hurt any  Our slow speed limits however will extend your range (as for the reason they're slower than the US: see point #3  ). On the other hand, the network of Ring Road CHAdeMO/CCS/AC chargers is nearly complete. So for example you can charge at places like this:










Or this:










Or this:










Am I just cherry-picking the prettiest locations scattered around the country? Actually, no, it's just three adjacent charging locations (Jökulsárlón, Skaftafell, Kirkjubæjarklaustur)


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## Michael Russo

youyouxue said:


> Hello everyone,
> (...)
> If you are in the SF Bay Area, I'm free in the afternoons this week (today until Thursday) to show people my 3 or do test drives. PM me if you are interested.
> 
> All the best,
> You You


Sorry, forgot to ask, wasn't your Model 3 going to be shipped end of Jan/early February to Europe? Or was that delayed?
Maybe I missed something.


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## Michael Russo

Updated on @youyouxue 's upcoming trip overseas, starting in the UK on March 15:


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/963031589126066178


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## Michael Russo

OMG! Just saw that @youyouxue has scheduled a Meet & Greet with his UK licensed yet LHD white LRB on March 28 in Gennevilliers, near Paris!! 



__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=347932608946389



Count me in, folks.. 
Perfect timing, still in Belgium at the time (4 weeks before move down South) so can get there in 3 hours!!


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## teslamcteslaface

Pity Ireland is off the agenda : A short trip over would be welcomed & mathematically efficient  http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/d-brief/2015/08/20/european-road-trip-math/


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## Michael Russo

teslamcteslaface said:


> Pity Ireland is off the agenda : A short trip over would be welcomed & mathematically efficient  http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/d-brief/2015/08/20/european-road-trip-math/


Not sure @youyouxue visits here very much yet tagging him just in case... can't you make it to the UK? Not as easy as driving to Paris for me, I imagine ...


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## teslamcteslaface

Michael Russo said:


> Not sure @youyouxue visits here very much yet tagging him just in case... can't you make it to the UK? Not as easy as driving to Paris for me, I imagine ...


cant make it to the UK this month .I'll see one eventually!


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## Jayc

Michael Russo said:


> Updated on @youyouxue 's upcoming trip overseas, starting in the UK on March 15:
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/963031589126066178


Where did you see the date stamp on the journey plan ? Edinburgh, UK is listed but cannot see a date against it.


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## Michael Russo

Jayc said:


> Where did you see the date stamp on the journey plan ? Edinburgh, UK is listed but cannot see a date against it.


Me neither, except for the days for which the FB page has a Meet & Greet date, I'm afraid you need to guess. I have sent a couple of messages to @youyouxue for similar information yet got no answer. He must be very busy, ahead of the trip.


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## avoigt

Michael Russo said:


> Me neither, except for the days for which the FB page has a Meet & Greet date, I'm afraid you need to guess. I have sent a couple of messages to @youyouxue for similar information yet got no answer. He must be very busy, ahead of the trip.


Please keep us informed if he replies. No surprise I have the same question for Germany. Any about date to pencil in would be helpful.....


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## Michael Russo

avoigt said:


> Please keep us informed if he replies. No surprise I have the same question for Germany. Any about date to pencil in would be helpful.....


Not counting on it unless he checks back in here I'm afraid...


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## Michael Russo

Michael Russo said:


> OMG! Just saw that @youyouxue has scheduled a Meet & Greet with his UK licensed yet LHD white LRB on March 28 in Gennevilliers, near Paris!!
> 
> 
> 
> __ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=347932608946389
> 
> 
> 
> Count me in, folks..
> Perfect timing, still in Belgium at the time (4 weeks before move down South) so can get there in 3 hours!!


To be clear, this Paris MeetUp has already been rescheduled twice from the original 3/28 date, first fo April 6, now April 15, 8-10am!!
Note this may not work for me any longer, one week before our move...


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## avoigt

Michael Russo said:


> To be clear, this Paris MeetUp has already been rescheduled twice from the original 3/28 date, first fo April 6, now April 15, 8-10am!!
> Note this may not work for me any longer, one week before our move...


[I][SIZE=3][COLOR=rgb(204, 0, 0)]@youyouxue[/COLOR][/SIZE][/I] would you mind posting your full road trip schedule here?

Some people like me who did never subscribe to Facebook, feel quite good about not being a part of the data misusage network .......


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## garsh

avoigt said:


> [I][SIZE=3][COLOR=rgb(204, 0, 0)]@youyouxue[/COLOR][/SIZE][/I] would you mind posting your full road trip schedule here?


He created an account on Feb 5, made a couple of posts, and hasn't logged back in since.


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## Michael Russo

avoigt said:


> [I][SIZE=3][COLOR=rgb(204, 0, 0)]@youyouxue[/COLOR][/SIZE][/I] would you mind posting your full road trip schedule here?
> 
> Some people like me who did never subscribe to Facebook, feel quite good about not being a part of the data misusage network .......


To @garsh 's point, I would not bet on his return here before the trip.
So here you are, non-loving Facebook EU friends... . Even a preview of an early August in Hawaii! 
















Hope this helps!
Mike


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## SoFlaModel3

Early April Fools or is this EU Road Trip really canceled?

Just saw on Facebook and stopped following his group. Frankly the posts annoyed me more often than not.


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## Bokonon




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## Michael Russo

No way I believe this. No way.
The way it’s written, with reference to Sunday being ‘today’, even more so if he’s in the UK, smells like an April Fool’s Day (bad) joke.

Also I don’t see T≡SLA buying the car back for its full purchase price nor at all.
Finally I believe Elon has better things to do than to have lunch with Youyou, IMHO... 

Having said this, schedule changes all the time. Gennevilliers near Paris would now be 4/18 pm. Totally impossible for me to go. Now, as you know, I have an even more important second trip to Paris this coming Friday and a move in 3 weeks to prepare for...


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## Bokonon

SoFlaModel3 said:


> Early April Fools or is this EU Road Trip really canceled?
> 
> Just saw on Facebook and stopped following his group. Frankly the posts annoyed me more often than not.


He's way early (unless you live east of Istanbul), but he did refer to "this evening" as Sunday, not Saturday, so....

Also this:


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## Michael Russo

Yep, @Bokonon , nonsense it is... A supercharger in his driveway... Which planet are we on?!


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## garsh

Sounds like he's getting an early start on April Fools jokes.


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## SoFlaModel3

Bokonon said:


> He's way early (unless you live east of Istanbul), but he did refer to "this evening" as Sunday, not Saturday, so....
> 
> Also this:
> 
> View attachment 6852


That helps point to April Fools. I'm still done following his group. He's just a spoiled kid either way.


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## Joaquin

SoFlaModel3 said:


> Just saw on Facebook and stopped following his group. Frankly the posts annoyed me more often than not.


Agree. And it's something I don't get. I knew him in person for the test drive, and he was really nice. My gratitude for that amazing experience will last forever. But lately his FB posts are usually showing a lot of bad mood and arrogance, IMHO


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## Bokonon

Well, on the plus side... while we know @Michael Russo 's Red Dragon may scratch the Tesla itch for now, it's important that he get some direct Model 3 exposure in the near future, lest his mind wander too far away from his true, everlasting love... Midnight S≡R≡NITY...


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## Michael Russo

Bokonon said:


> Well, on the plus side... while we know @Michael Russo 's Red Dragon may scratch the Tesla itch for now, it's important that he get some direct Model 3 exposure in the near future, lest his mind wander too far away from his true, everlasting love... Midnight S≡R≡NITY...


Well, my friend, Midnight S≡R≡NITY could only be everlasting with a HUD... and a powered liftgate... . At least Red Dragon has the latter and a second binnacle... plus free SC for all my long trips... The jury is still out!!


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## Michael Russo

Hear, hear, all European friends!!!
The time for April's Fools now being past, here comes the real deal... many more dates have been added (including in Eire!! ) which I hope will accommodate many of you...

And again, in these troubled times for FaceBook... (), here are screen shots to benefit the masses!

I'll definitely try to drive... Red Dragon (! ) to the newly added one on 4/15 at 11 am if any of you Belgian friends are around...


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## Audrey

Having gone to one of the USA You You meetups, I can say confidently that Facebook (https://www.facebook.com/tsla3) is where you'll be able to find estimated events only. The event I went to ended up days later than originally planned. The day of it got rescheduled several times from 10 AM all the way until the actual meet up the following morning at 5 AM. He had a repair done and just got behind. Then he had to rest a bit. You can't take the dates posted here as precise.

If you want to go to a meeting, you'll have to follow in Facebook (make a temporary account and use an incognito browser) and follow on the glympse app/page (http://glypse.com/!tsla3) once the trip is live.

(edit: typo + links)


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## Michael Russo

Audrey said:


> Having gone to one of the USA You You meetups, I can say confidently that Facebook is where you'll be able to find estimated events only. The event I went to ended up days later than originally planned. The day of it got rescheduled several times from 10 AM all the way until the actual meet up there following morning at 5 AM. He had a repair done and just got behind. Then he had to rest a bit. You can't take the dates posted here as precise.
> 
> If you want to go to a meeting, you'll have to follow in Facebook (make a temporary account and use an incognito browser) and follow on the glympse app/page once the trip is live.


Thanks, Audrey. Totally realize that since for instance he's already changed the dates of the Paris meet-up three times... Yet good to keep it in mind for all those interest to see the Model 3 'in the flesh' on this side of the water, many moons before actual deliveries begin!

I'll try to update folks who are not on Facebook in a week or so. By then most of the initial events should be somewhat firmer... hopefully...

Keep enjoying your Midnight Silver beauty!!


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## Jayc

Michael Russo said:


> I'll try to update folks who are not on Facebook in a week or so.


Yes please, much appreciate it if you could.


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## Pescakl1

As Audrey said: Take the facebook dates as an indication of where he want to go.

Use Glympse to know where he is and calculate *yourselves* at what exact time he will arrive at the meeting point.


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## Michael Russo

Friends, here is the last minute update before the weekend... @youyouxue is already in the UK since I saw his tweet on a United flight to Heathrow posted 19 hrs ago...
Will try to take Red Dragon to the Machelen MeetUp Sunday am... and will post pics... of course


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## Bokonon

Wellllll....how was it? 

Do I see Red Dragon here?


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## Michael Russo

Bokonon said:


> Wellllll....how was it?
> 
> Do I see Red Dragon here?
> 
> View attachment 7410


Nope, that was a local (Belgian) twin... see my next post!


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## Matthias Fritz

his timetable is a bit confusing still. i mean how can he be in Casablanca and Vienna both on the 23rd of April. that is two different continents lol


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## Bokonon

Matthias Fritz said:


> his timetable is a bit confusing still. i mean how can he be in Casablanca and Vienna both on the 23rd of April. that is two different continents lol


Doesn't surprise me at all! :tearsofjoy: His event schedule is always an ambitious outline until the last minute. On the day he visited New England, at one point his schedule implied he would be averaging 80+ mph with zero charging stops and only about 10 minutes at each gathering, and the route criss-crossed all over itself. As the events drew nearer, he rearranged the stops and adjusted the times so that they were more realistic.

As others have suggested upthread, use the Facebook events as an approximation of when he *might* show up, and follow his Glympse in the days/hours before he arrives to get a more accurate ETA.


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## Michael Russo

So, with some delay - I think @youyouxue finally made it to the meet & greet around 2:30 pm... - after getting a boost to charge from Martin Gillet from the Belgian T≡SLA Owners Club.... Had wifey with me (you'll see her reflection in one of the pics below...) to get her perspective on the Model 3 too...

The meet & greet gathering included about 40-50 people, mainly existing owners already from what I could tell. Could not stay long as we were expecting at 3 pm to say our goodbyes there before the move...

YouYou was very pleasant, asked whether everybody understood English... (most did!) and was keen to give ample time for people to ask questions before anything wlze...

Though white is not my color... the car was beautiful inside and out as expected...! @Mad Hungarian 's nice black FastWheels were noticeable visible enhancement !! 

Got to sit down at the wheel for a minute (1st in thanks to the fact YouYou knew who I was I think, as well as Martin's hell)... I found the minimalist interior design to be very clean, very appealing (though I desperately kept looking for the HUD yet could not find it... ). The all-glass roof was of course impressive... I surprised myself in liking the 'wooden' dash more than I had expected...

Maybe because I've already made Red Dragon mine and I've integrated its dimensions... Model 3 looked small to me... though I know it isn't... Too small, not sure... yet for sure much smaller than the S... This is of course an advantage for many, yet I guess I'm already used to the ginormous room the S has to offer...

Anyways, had to rush and there was no time for the ride experience. Happy I could make it yet nothing I saw made me feel bad about falling for Res Dragon... Time will tell what the best use of my res will be... (right now, I'm thinking four 20'' FC04s... )

A few pics for visual effect...


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## Michael Russo

And a couple of more souvenirs...


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## Michael Russo

And now... the Twitter coverage!!


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/985561494577467392

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/985564341196992512


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## victor

He was driving with UK license plate in the USA and Canada and now in Europe he's driving with California plate!


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## Michael Russo

victor said:


> He was driving with UK license plate in the USA and Canada and now in Europe he's driving with California plate!


I know, saw that too immediately and chuckled internally


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## Michael Russo

@youyouxue being here now, thought it was becoming to edit thread title accordingly!


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## Matthias Fritz

did he get his cracked rear glass replaced? cannot detect it on any pic.


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## Michael Russo

Matthias Fritz said:


> did he get his cracked rear glass replaced? cannot detect it on any pic.


Not yet. I personally did not pay attention to it yet I think I heard a couple of folks talk to him about that.


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## JWardell

Funny, Friday night out of the blue I start getting some frantic facebook messages from You You, asking me for thoughts on the supercharging issue. I said I was sure it had something to do with communications activation, possibly requiring SCs to be programmed to accept Model 3 IDs. I think related to chademo. I've been expecting these issues ever since he announced the trip. Funny to me is he started with I am the person he was looking for...no idea where he determined that from!
Sadly, as I said, if only I had my Model 3 by now as originally forecasted, there is a chance I would have decoded charging comms and even possible I have the tools and resources to spoof Model S but...still no Tesla to toy with.

So, @Michael Russo now that you've seen one are you having some regrets going with the S? 

I hope you are all enjoying seeing the Model 3 for the first time, and finally getting a feeling for You You's....unique personality but forever grateful for what he is doing to get this car seen across the world. At least for you guys it's not -12C!


----------



## Michael Russo

JWardell said:


> (...)
> So, @Michael Russo now that you've seen one are you having some regrets going with the S?
> 
> I hope you are all enjoying seeing the Model 3 for the first time, and finally getting a feeling for You You's....unique personality but forever grateful for what he is doing to get this car seen across the world. At least for you guys it's not -12C!


Interesting, Josh...

To your question, as I alluded to in my summary above, absolutely not. I'm not one to regret typically... Apart from the debit on range and AP1 hardware, my S has all I need and more so don't think I'll trade it easily. Yet I am conscious I was extremely lucky to find this particular one, with super low mileage & in great condition, for a price I could still pay as it was at least 10-20% lower than what most decent CPO S' (for me) go for here in Europe!!

Otherwise, there is no doubt Model 3 is a gorgeous & precious car, which will make hundreds of thousands of people happy like they've probably not been before in a car!!


----------



## SoFlaModel3

@Michael Russo life will never be the same after your first Model 3 sighting


----------



## Love

@Michael Russo Thank you for sharing your pictures and experience! It's great to see all the excitement for the Model 3. That turnout in general, and all the Tesla owners, was simply awesome! Love that picture of the 3 with the train of Teslas behind it!

This might sound a little odd/cheesy but seeing the pictures gave me a renewed sense of how small the world is. It seems like it wasn't that long ago I was making a 6 hour round trip to spend 30 minutes with You You and his Model 3 in Des Moines, Iowa. I felt a commonality with everyone in your pictures, so excited and enthusiastic for the opportunity.

I'm also reminded of the excitement I still get anytime I see another person in a Tesla and the feeling that there really IS a family (or at the very least a kindred spirit) that we all have. I'm thankful for all of you here no matter where you are in the world! If you're ever around my way, I'll take it as an insult if you don't reach out!


----------



## John

Michael Russo said:


> Got to sit down at the wheel for a minute (1st in thanks to the fact YouYou knew who I was I think, as well as Martin's hell)... I found the minimalist interior design to be very clean, very appealing (though I desperately kept looking for the HUD yet could not find it... ). The all-glass roof was of course impressive... I surprised myself in liking the 'wooden' dash more than I had expected...


Michael, thanks for the coverage of You You's European road trip. Cool that you could see the same car many of us had our first ride in, and with MH's wheels. Small world indeed.

Two thoughts:

1. I was in the HUD camp during the long reservation wait when worry became entertainment, but I've changed my mind since owning one. If mine had a HUD, i would turn it off. The view at night with no dash lights (or HUD) in front of you is awesome. The speed display is actually more prominent than in most cars, without the glare of a gauge directly in front of you, especially a harder to read analog one. I think you will feel the same way when you have one.

2. While I genuinely enjoyed my time with @youyouxue , and was so grateful for the chance to experience the car as early as I did, he does tend to make sometimes disconcerting statements such as:

"Autopilot will kill you."
"Auto lane change will hit a car in your blind spot."
"This top glass piece breaks all the time, because of how they make it."
"The screen doesn't work well. Mine has been replaced three times."

After my meeting with him and watching various Facebook videos, I've come to believe that blurting out such sweeping statements-while true, at least in a narrow sense-don't serve him or Tesla well. I get that it's probably just a mannerism of his, but it's not an endearing one when you realize that the first experience some people may have is hearing You You say, "Autopilot will kill you."

Before anyone gets all hopped up about, "He has a right to say that," or "But it's true and people should understand that," I would suggest that You You could just as truthfully say, "I use Autopilot most of the time on the freeway. There are some situations it can't handle yet, so watch out for those. A couple of people have died when they didn't understand the limitations, but overall it's an awesome feature that makes driving more relaxing. It's awesome in stop-and-go traffic. And it's getting better all the time."

You You should feel free to be You You, but no one should be surprised if Tesla decides not to endorse him as their spokesman, and let him suck up resources while they work hard to thoughtfully set up support and charging infrastructure in Europe.

No huge crime no matter what, since relatively few people will meet him and/or read about the tour on Facebook or other EV sites. But You You himself is already facing a backlash on Reddit, which tends to judge things harshly. I think M3OC feels a little more charitable, since honestly we just want to see the car in person any way we can.


----------



## SoFlaModel3

John said:


> Michael, thanks for the coverage of You You's European road trip. Cool that you could see the same car many of us had our first ride in, and with MH's wheels. Small world indeed.
> 
> Two thoughts:
> 
> 1. I was in the HUD camp during the long reservation wait when worry became entertainment, but I've changed my mind since owning one. If mine had a HUD, i would turn it off. The view at night with no dash lights (or HUD) in front of you is awesome. The speed display is actually more prominent than in most cars, without the glare of a gauge directly in front of you, especially a harder to read analog one. I think you will feel the same way when you have one.
> 
> 2. While I genuinely enjoyed my time with @youyouxue , and was so grateful for the chance to experience the car as early as I did, he does tend to make sometimes disconcerting statements such as:
> 
> "Autopilot will kill you."
> "Auto lane change will hit a car in your blind spot."
> "This top glass piece breaks all the time, because of how they make it."
> "The screen doesn't work well. Mine has been replaced three times."
> 
> After my meeting with him and watching various Facebook videos, I've come to believe that blurting out such sweeping statements-while true, at least in a narrow sense-don't serve him or Tesla well. I get that it's probably just a mannerism of his, but it's not an endearing one when you realize that the first experience some people may have is hearing You You say, "Autopilot will kill you."
> 
> Before anyone gets all hopped up about, "He has a right to say that," or "But it's true and people should understand that," I would suggest that You You could just as truthfully say, "I use Autopilot most of the time on the freeway. There are some situations it can't handle yet, so watch out for those. A couple of people have died when they didn't understand the limitations, but overall it's an awesome feature that makes driving more relaxing. It's awesome in stop-and-go traffic. And it's getting better all the time."
> 
> You You should feel free to be You You, but no one should be surprised if Tesla decides not to endorse him as their spokesman, and let him suck up resources while they work hard to thoughtfully set up support and charging infrastructure in Europe.
> 
> No huge crime no matter what, since relatively few people will meet him and/or read about the tour on Facebook or other EV sites. But You You himself is already facing a backlash on Reddit, which tends to judge things harshly. I think M3OC feels a little more charitable, since honestly we just want to see the car in person any way we can.


This is my exact feeling toward You You. The statements appear to be true in limited scope coming from someone that just thrashed an early VIN car. He sensationalizes everything and that doesn't sit well with me.


----------



## Michael Russo

A lot of great points, @John .

One thing for sure, in only about two weeks of Red Dragon bliss, I have already become a huge fan of Autopilot (albeit AP1 'only'). I totally get what it can & cannot so, I even know now got how to manage 'auto' lane change and... it definitely will NOT kill me because I stay attentive at all times! Love it!!


----------



## Michael Russo

Michael Russo said:


> (...)Though white is not my color... the car was beautiful inside and out as expected...! @Mad Hungarian 's nice black FastWheels were noticeable visible enhancement !!
> (...)


@Mad Hungarian , I just had an epiphany! Suddenly realized today, as I was showing the pics of the car at the tire place today (put summer tires on wifey's 'old' Giulietta), that these are black FC04s!! No wonder they looked so cool!!


----------



## Mad Hungarian

Michael Russo said:


> @Mad Hungarian , I just had an epiphany! Suddenly realized today, as I was showing the pics of the car at the tire place today (put summer tires on wifey's 'old' Giulietta), that these are black FC04s!! No wonder they looked so cool!!


LOL!!
You just realized this now?
I will grant you that the black version is quite stealthy, shape doesn't stand out as much as the grey or bronze.


----------



## Love

Mad Hungarian said:


> LOL!!
> You just realized this now?
> I will grant you that the black version is quite stealthy, shape doesn't stand out as much as the grey or bronze.


I give @Michael Russo a pass, his brain has fallen under the spell of the Red Dragon and all other thoughts have been relegated to synapse table scraps! He won't return to normal ever due to the seductive mist that envelops the aura of this mythical crimson beast!
Best to just embrace it. He is the dragon rider now. (queue dragon roar noise. Fire too, if the budget allows)


----------



## Michael Russo

@Lovesword, this is truly poetic!! Well done... appeals to my Targaryen blood, I guess... 

Best part is this:


Lovesword said:


> (...)He won't return to normal ever due to the seductive mist that envelops the aura of this mythical crimson beast!
> Best to just embrace it. He is the dragon rider now. (...)


I will quote that on Twitter, I love it so much!! 
Here it is... sorry had to adapt to the character count limit... 

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/986335218968776707


----------



## Love

Michael Russo said:


> @Lovesword, this is truly poetic!! Well done... appeals to my Targaryen blood, I guess...
> 
> Best part is this:
> 
> I will quote that on Twitter, I love it so much!!
> Here it is... sorry had to adapt to the character count limit...
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/986335218968776707


Wow, thank you! I've never been quoted before on social media (I don't think), unless this forum counts I guess. I thought about getting a Twitter at one time but Lovesword was taken (what?!)... and maybe I don't need to subject the world to my thoughts as immediately as I can think them up.


----------



## Michael Russo

Lovesword said:


> Wow, thank you! I've never been quoted before on social media (I don't think), unless this forum counts I guess. I thought about getting a Twitter at one time but Lovesword was taken (what?!)... and maybe I don't need to subject the world to my thoughts as immediately as I can think them up.


Totally deserved in this case, it was a true masterpiece, and not just because I was the subject of it!!


----------



## Michel Zehnder

Lovesword said:


> Wow, thank you! I've never been quoted before on social media (I don't think), unless this forum counts I guess. I thought about getting a Twitter at one time but Lovesword was taken (what?!)... and maybe I don't need to subject the world to my thoughts as immediately as I can think them up.


If the leader of the free world can do it, then so do you!


----------



## Brett

Does anyone know where @youyouxue got these license plates? As far as I can tell California has never issued white plates with red lettering, at least I can't find any reference to them with a google search. If it's possible I would totally order these instead of the normal white with blue lettering.


----------



## John

Brett said:


> Does anyone know where @youyouxue got these license plates? As far as I can tell California has never issued white plates with red lettering, at least I can't find any reference to them with a google search. If it's possible I would totally order these instead of the normal white with blue lettering.
> 
> View attachment 7631


I think it's just one of these, either modded (which is mucho not allowed) or the photo was color-shifted:


----------



## Brett

John said:


> I think it's just one of these, either modded (which is mucho not allowed) or the photo was color-shifted:


Is this one of those "Is That Dress White and Gold or Blue and Black?" things? 

Your're probably right about the mod (red paint), I just got really excited because I like the white and red look on the white car.


----------



## Gilberto Pe-Curto

Just arrived from Lisbon where You You showed me the Model 3.
It's a good size car...not too big, not smal..
Lot's of interior space...
The doors could be more BMWish... when closing...
The Fit & Finish of this car could be way better than it is...
Hoping for good quality improvements in the next iterations...


----------



## SoFlaModel3

Gilberto Pe-Curto said:


> Just arrived from Lisbon where You You showed me the Model 3.
> It's a good size car...not too big, not smal..
> Lot's of interior space...
> The doors could be more BMWish... when closing...
> The Fit & Finish of this car could be way better than it is...
> Hoping for good quality improvements in the next iterations...


Don't forget he has an early car that's been beaten on and used by more people in a few months than most cars see in 10 years.

I can tell you interior fit and finish is great and the cars have the typical German car door thud you'd expect.


----------



## Gilberto Pe-Curto

SoFlaModel3 said:


> Don't forget he has an early car that's been beaten on and used by more people in a few months than most cars see in 10 years.
> 
> I can tell you interior fit and finish is great and the cars have the typical German car door thud you'd expect.


More than 6000 people already been insise the car as he said.


----------



## Gilberto Pe-Curto

Little (not so) thingsi lke this...
Disaligned panels...


----------



## Matthias Fritz

talking bout proper EV charging in europe


----------



## Brokedoc

Michael Russo said:


> A lot of great points, @John .
> 
> One thing for sure, in only about two weeks of Red Dragon bliss, I have already become a huge fan of Autopilot (albeit AP1 'only'). I totally get what it can & cannot so, I even know now got how to manage 'auto' lane change and... it definitely will NOT kill me because I stay attentive at all times! Love it!!


The biggest problem with Autopilot is that Tesla doesn't administer an IQ test before people use it. AP will not make a bad driver any better and someone who uses AP without supervision is not the sharpest knife in the drawer.


----------



## SoFlaModel3

Road trip over and I'm personally skeptical...


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1000116677311324160


----------



## Joaquin

SoFlaModel3 said:


> Road trip over and I'm personally skeptical...



"Car suddenly veered right..." but damage is on left... weird.

The good news is that he is ok, but we can expect a new wave of tesla-crash-news


----------



## SoFlaModel3

Joaquin said:


> "Car suddenly veered right..." but damage is on left... weird.
> 
> The good news is that he is ok, but we can expect a new wave of tesla-crash-news


Yup! Cars that you are "supervising" don't suddenly veer.


----------



## Michael Russo

Joaquin said:


> "Car suddenly veered right..." but damage is on left... weird.
> (...)


You took the words right out of my mouth.... 


SoFlaModel3 said:


> Yup! Cars that you are "supervising" don't suddenly veer.


there is not doubt AP requires attention... but, boy do I love it!!


----------



## SoFlaModel3

Michael Russo said:


> there is not doubt AP requires attention... but, boy do I love it!!


I just trusted it with me and my kids in heavy rain. It's fantastic. It also doesn't mean I wasn't ready to take over.


----------



## Joaquin

SoFlaModel3 said:


> I just trusted it with me and my kids in heavy rain. It's fantastic. It also doesn't mean I wasn't ready to take over.


Yep, that's the right thing to do: always be ready, while enjoying the drive.

And YouYou himself have been blaming autopilot for a long time, he for sure knows that you need to be supervising...

I'm afraid we will never know exactly what happened: Tesla never approved this trip, and they don't have telemetry on this car in EU. Let's see if they are willing to investigate this issue and access the logs on a car "off-limits".


----------



## John

I was driving along the freeway—on Autopilot, natch—wondering what the telemetry would look like if someone was driving along with a EAP cheater weight wedged in their steering wheel. Is it a "too-consistent" weight that can be detected in the logs, or does it register as a very diligent driver?


----------



## Bokonon

Here's the exit median that he crashed into. You can see where the left side of the car impacted the barrier, likely as he tried to correct back into the road.










I've driven in Greece before, and it's definitely not for the faint of heart. That said, this road looks very well-marked by Greek standards... Can't speak to how well autopilot understood the markings, though.


----------



## SoFlaModel3

Bokonon said:


> Here's the exit median that he crashed into. You can see where the left side of the car impacted the barrier, likely as he tried to correct back into the road.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I've driven in Greece before, and it's definitely not for the faint of heart. That said, this road looks very well-marked by Greek standards... Can't speak to how well autopilot understood the markings, though.


It would be interesting to see a picture looking back the other direction. He shouldn't have been in autopilot in a situation like that anyway as it's not intended to handle 1 lane into 2.


----------



## Brokedoc

It looks like the AP tried to take the off ramp which AP sometimes wants to do. 

An alert supervising driver would have corrected it immediately. If he was well into the exit ramp and tried to get back on the main roadway too late, he would have hit the divider on the L/F fender as shown. It’s still driver error. Either finish the exit or correct sooner. Luckily he didn’t hit the divider head on or the would have been really ugly.


----------



## SoFlaModel3

Brokedoc said:


> It looks like the AP tried to take the off ramp which AP sometimes wants to do.
> 
> An alert supervising driver would have corrected it immediately. If he was well into the exit ramp and tried to get back on the main roadway too late, he would have hit the divider on the L/F fender as shown. It's still driver error. Either finish the exit or correct sooner. Luckily he didn't hit the divider head on or the would have been really ugly.


Perfectly stated.

In a similar situation -- 9 times out of 10 I've already disabled autopilot before I get to it and that one time I don't, my hands are already the wheel and my foot is hovering over the brake pedal. There is just no reason to chance that kind of stuff.


----------



## svusa11

Don't turn off your human instinct while driving with autopilot on. It is certainly not refined to account for all possibilities. 

Difference with autopilot is, you don't make driving decisions based on conditions of the road ahead but you correct autopilot decisions based on conditions of the road ahead! 

It is subtle difference but important enough to keep you safe all the times.


----------



## John

Yeah, we have freeways near me in two places with splits like that. Every so often I'll check to see how Autopilot reacts, but it's definitely Hands On Wheel time, and the anticipation that it might go either way. Right now it heavily assumes that an open choice to the right is an exit. Probably because it used to dive off on exits and they've really pulled it back to preferring to stay left at any split. At least that's what I've observed here in California.

For me, best practice is to always cruise in a center lane (if you have at least 3 lanes on each side) and avoid "ambiguous lanes" like this where Autopilot is faced with a decision. I have gone over 60 miles and transferred across multiple freeways staying on Autopilot, changing lanes, and always sticking to unambiguous lanes near junctions. It's easier to do this in areas that only have exits on one side of the freeway, I should note.


----------



## garsh

SoFlaModel3 said:


> It would be interesting to see a picture looking back the other direction.


Here you go:


----------



## Dogwhistle

I’m not buying his explanation. Basically, he’s claiming that A/P tried to switch from one well-marked lane to another well-marked lane on its own, at such a late point, and with such force and abruptness, that he was helpless to do anything about it. I don’t think I’ve EVER seen anyone describe such a behavior from autopilot before. Occam’s Razor. Drivers, especially tired ones late at night, often realize at the last second they are in the wrong lane, and then “go for it” out of reflex to fix the situation. Happens every day, see it all the time. Most are successful with this maneuver, some aren’t. It’s easy to blame the car and save face.


----------



## SoFlaModel3

garsh said:


> Here you go:


Thanks! I agree with @Dogwhistle and even more so because we've consistently seen this type of behavior from You You. He was also driving is car at top speed on the highway down here near me. He's wreckless. My car has never just changed lanes on its own with force and certainly never while well marked. If anything it shifts lanes too slowly.


----------



## SoFlaModel3

Let me add to this as it’s pretty clear what happened actually.

You You is driving in a single lane area that forks left and right. He’s in autopilot and the car wavers a bit and picks right. He wants to go left so he pulls hard on the wheel to go left and drives into the median.

When he says the car pulled hard right. What we don’t know is how fast was he going, how much time did that then give the car to react to what looks to be a fairy tight exchange, and what did he really do.

My guess is that he was literally the driving force pulling the car “left” into the barrier. If he accepts that the car is going to take the wrong exit his car isn’t wrecked.


----------



## Dogwhistle

SoFlaModel3 said:


> Let me add to this as it's pretty clear what happened actually.
> 
> You You is driving in a single lane area that forks left and right. He's in autopilot and the car wavers a bit and picks right. He wants to go left so he pulls hard on the wheel to go left and drives into the median.
> 
> When he says the car pulled hard right. What we don't know is how fast was he going, how much time did that then give the car to react to what looks to be a fairy tight exchange, and what did he really do.
> 
> My guess is that he was literally the driving force pulling the car "left" into the barrier. If he accepts that the car is going to take the wrong exit his car isn't wrecked.


Or even more likely, his car was in the left lane, he was planning on exiting to take a leak or whatever, and looked up at the last second and saw he was about to miss his exit and went for it. Almost made it. Either way, I don't think we're getting the full picture from him. But wouldn't be the first time a lone driver in a fairly remote area involved in a single-car accident with no witnesses didn't provide all the details of what happened. It ticks me off that he is willing to drag Tesla's name through the mud rather than own up to his own eff-up. He can do more damage than whatever "good" people think he's doing.


----------



## SoFlaModel3

Dogwhistle said:


> Or even more likely, his car was in the left lane, he was planning on exiting to take a leak or whatever, and looked up at the last second and saw he was about to miss his exit and went for it. Almost made it. Either way, I don't think we're getting the full picture from him. But wouldn't be the first time a lone driver in a fairly remote area involved in a single-car accident with no witnesses didn't provide all the details of what happened. It ticks me off that he is willing to drag Tesla's name through the mud rather than own up to his own eff-up. He can do more damage than whatever "good" people think he's doing.


Well that's true too. Autopilot may not have even been engaged


----------



## Brokedoc

FWIW He’s asking Tesla to investigate on Twitter. If I were Tesla, I would buy the car and tear it apart to see how it’s held up. His Model 3 must be one of the highest mileage Model 3s around.

I don’t think Tesla should go as far as to swap for another Model 3. As valuable as his tour has been in raising Tesla publicity, he’s kinda like a loose cannon and his messages to the less educated public while on his tour is not exactly accurate nor completely positive for Tesla.


----------



## John

I'm pretty sure my car would currently pull left, treating the right fork as an exit. That's consistent wit what recent versions have done here for me in California at a fork in a lane.

So if he would have said, "I was driving along, came to a split, the car tried to go left, I pulled it back right and almost made it," I would have said, "Yep, my car would do that, too."


----------



## Brokedoc

John said:


> I'm pretty sure my car would currently pull left, treating the right fork as an exit. That's consistent wit what recent versions have done here for me in California at a fork in a lane.
> 
> So if he would have said, "I was driving along, came to a split, the car tried to go left, I pulled it back right and almost made it," I would have said, "Yep, my car would do that, too."


But the difference is that he has repeatedly, publicly acknowledged during his tour that AP is not to be trusted and possibly dangerous. Then, he has been known to drive excessively fast on unfamiliar roads and not be completely attentive while using AP. It was a bad recipe.


----------



## John

Brokedoc said:


> But the difference is that he has repeatedly, publicly acknowledged during his tour that AP is not to be trusted and possibly dangerous. Then, he has been known to drive excessively fast on unfamiliar roads and not be completely attentive while using AP. It was a bad recipe.


Yeah, he told me personally, "Autopilot will kill you." And, "Auto lane change will hit other cars." So the whole thing is surprising. I think he was definitely "more outspoken than careful."


----------



## John

You You's statement on Reddit:

"Statement

Re: Model 3 crash on Autopilot

Statement regarding collision

26 May 2018

FLORINA, GREECE

Thank you everyone for your kind wishes and messages of support following the collision late yesterday night. This is an absolutely devastating loss for me and brings a great journey to a sudden end.

I was driving southbound on highway E65 near the city of Florina, Greece. I was headed towards Kozani, Greece, where I planned to charge and spend the night. At this time, I was not tired after having 8 hours of sleep the previous night. I engaged Autopilot upon entering the highway after crossing the border between Macedonia (FYROM) and Greece. My Autopilot maximum speed was set at approximately 120 km/h, the speed limit for this highway. The highway was well-marked, well-maintained, and well-lit. The conditions were dry, and there was no traffic around me. The highway was two lanes in each direction, separated by a concrete median. The highway in my direction of travel divided at a fork, with the #2 right lane changing into the exit lane, and the #1 left lane remaining the lane for thru traffic. I was travelling in the #1 lane.

My left hand was grasping the bottom of the steering wheel during the drive, my right hand was resting on my lap. The vehicle showed no signs of difficulty following the road up until this fork. As the gore point began, approximately 8m before the crash barrier and end of the fork, my Model 3 veered suddenly and with great force to the right. I was taking a glance at the navigation on my phone, and was not paying full attention to the road. I was startled by the sudden change in direction of the car, and I attempted to apply additional grip onto the steering wheel in an attempt to correct the steering. This input was too late and although I was only a few inches from clearing the crash barrier, the front left of the vehicle near the wheel well crashed into the right edge of the barrier, resulting in severe damage.

I was not harmed in the collision, and no medical attention has been sought. I was wearing my seatbelt before and during the collision. None of the airbags deployed.

My Model 3 is not drivable as the front left wheel is completely shattered, and the axle is out of alignment. The damage is severe on the left of the front bumper, running to the front lip of the driver’s door, and is moderately severe from there to the left of the back bumper. The vehicle has been towed to a shop, and at 09:00 today, I will accompany the vehicle on a tow truck to Thessaloniki. I am towing the car there under recommendation from locals as more resources are available there, including resources to repatriate the vehicle back to the United States. I will make a decision soon as to whether or not it makes sense to bring this car back to the United States in an attempt to fix it, as the cost to repair the vehicle may substantially exceed its value after repair or salvage value.

Tesla states in an on-screen warning that both hands should be on the wheel when Autopilot is activated. Furthermore, Tesla states that drivers should be paying attention and monitoring the performance of Autopilot at all times. It is likely true that if all drivers obeyed the warnings surrounding this software, that most of the collisions we hear about in the press would never happen. Autopilot has limitations that currently can only be overcome through human intervention. For example, it cannot detect stationary objects, which explains collisions where Model S has rear-ended stationary vehicles parked on the side of the road.

By looking at my navigation and by not having both hands on the wheel, I was not paying full attention to the road while the vehicle was in Autopilot and was not following Tesla’s directions in regards to the correct use of the software. I want to make it clear that I take responsibility in regards to my actions. With that being said, I do not believe that there are many Tesla owners who, when using Autopilot, always keep both hands on the wheel and provide their undivided attention to monitoring the road and the software. This collision was directly caused by the Autopilot software seriously malfunctioning and misinterpreting the road. This collision could have happened to anyone who does not expect a car travelling at a fast speed in a straight line to suddenly and without warning, veer off course. After tens of thousands of kilometres worth of Autopilot driving without major incidents, I have learned to trust the software. Autopilot provides users with a strong sense of security and reliability as it takes you to your destination and navigates traffic on your behalf. Clearly, I had become too trusting of the software.

Autopilot is marketed as a driver assistance feature that reduces stress and improves safety. However, the vigilance required to use the software, such as keeping both hands on the wheel and constantly monitoring the system for malfunctions or abnormal behaviour, arguably requires significantly more attention than just driving the vehicle normally without use of Autopilot. Furthermore, I believe that if Autopilot even has the small potential of misreading a clearly marked gore point, and has the potential to drive into a gore point and crash into a barrier, it should not be tested in beta, on the open road, and by normal consumers. My experience is not unique as many drivers have reported similar behaviour from Autopilot, and a fatal crash involving Autopilot on a Model X may have been caused by a disturbingly similar malfunction.

Many Tesla fans will likely dismiss this as fully my fault, but I implore those who believe so to take a full step back and put themselves in my shoes, as a driver who had used this amazing software for so long, and who could not have anticipated such a sudden and violent jerk of the wheel to one direction while travelling at a fast speed. I hope that my fellow owners will be less dismissive of various incidents regarding Autopilot, and understand that the general public views these severe collisions differently from the owner community. Tesla is moving quickly into the mass market, and potential customers in that segment aren’t going to ask, “why were both of his hands not on the wheel while the car was in Autopilot?”, rather, they are going to ask “why did the car swerve into the gore point without warning?”. The autonomous driving movement as well as the Tesla community can only get stronger when we tackle these questions and resolve the issues behind them.

I love my Teslas and I have owned a Tesla since 2014. I am upset with myself for being part of the growing list of individuals who have been involved in collisions while their Tesla was on Autopilot. I strongly believe in the capability of self-driving vehicles to not only eliminate all collisions on the road but to revolutionise our society. However, malfunctions like this greatly reduce the public’s confidence in a technology that should indeed be tested and rolled out to the public as soon as it is safe for use. I do not want to cause Tesla damage to its brand or image as I wholly support its mission and I am a big supporter. I only hope that Tesla will investigate this incident to determine what went wrong with the software, and make improvements that will enhance other people’s experiences with the car.

I am very grateful to be alive after what could have easily been a fatal collision. This incident was not more severe thanks to an excellent crash barrier on the Greek highway. I want to thank everyone again for your messages of support. I am honoured to have had this opportunity to spread the EV movement not only around my country but around the world. In closing, I want to address some of my critics who have used this collision to laugh at me or to otherwise make fun of this incident. On this road trip, there have indeed been crazy posts where I push the limit of my car and I have only done these things to share my excitement about my Model 3 with others. Please understand that there was nothing out of the ordinary occurring before this collision. I was not sleeping at the wheel, I was not tired, I was not eating at the wheel (which by the way, I have not done before), no videos were being filmed - the vehicle was being operated normally. I am truly sorry and deeply regret that some of my actions have caused a bad taste in people’s mouths, I ask those people to judge my road trip thus far as a whole and not by my craziest or worst moments. I have met with over 8000 people on the road in three continents and 25 countries, and have demonstrated that not only is it possible to drive an EV across the world, it is absolutely exhilarating and brings along great adventure along the way. I have also seen the potential and power of the EV owners community, which when leveraged, can make a great difference in our world. I ask those who disapprove of my actions to reconsider their stance, and I want to see what positive things can come of this collision.

What happens next on this road trip is uncertain. I will keep everyone posted."


----------



## SoFlaModel3

Brokedoc said:


> FWIW He's asking Tesla to investigate on Twitter. If I were Tesla, I would buy the car and tear it apart to see how it's held up. His Model 3 must be one of the highest mileage Model 3s around.
> 
> I don't think Tesla should go as far as to swap for another Model 3. As valuable as his tour has been in raising Tesla publicity, he's kinda like a loose cannon and his messages to the less educated public while on his tour is not exactly accurate nor completely positive for Tesla.


He's publicly asking Tesla to investigate meanwhile the car has no connectivity in Europe and they can't get the logs without the car.


----------



## SoFlaModel3

John said:


> You You's statement on Reddit:
> 
> "Statement
> 
> Re: Model 3 crash on Autopilot
> 
> Statement regarding collision
> 
> 26 May 2018
> 
> FLORINA, GREECE
> 
> Thank you everyone for your kind wishes and messages of support following the collision late yesterday night. This is an absolutely devastating loss for me and brings a great journey to a sudden end.
> 
> I was driving southbound on highway E65 near the city of Florina, Greece. I was headed towards Kozani, Greece, where I planned to charge and spend the night. At this time, I was not tired after having 8 hours of sleep the previous night. I engaged Autopilot upon entering the highway after crossing the border between Macedonia (FYROM) and Greece. My Autopilot maximum speed was set at approximately 120 km/h, the speed limit for this highway. The highway was well-marked, well-maintained, and well-lit. The conditions were dry, and there was no traffic around me. The highway was two lanes in each direction, separated by a concrete median. The highway in my direction of travel divided at a fork, with the #2 right lane changing into the exit lane, and the #1 left lane remaining the lane for thru traffic. I was travelling in the #1 lane.
> 
> My left hand was grasping the bottom of the steering wheel during the drive, my right hand was resting on my lap. The vehicle showed no signs of difficulty following the road up until this fork. As the gore point began, approximately 8m before the crash barrier and end of the fork, my Model 3 veered suddenly and with great force to the right. I was taking a glance at the navigation on my phone, and was not paying full attention to the road. I was startled by the sudden change in direction of the car, and I attempted to apply additional grip onto the steering wheel in an attempt to correct the steering. This input was too late and although I was only a few inches from clearing the crash barrier, the front left of the vehicle near the wheel well crashed into the right edge of the barrier, resulting in severe damage.
> 
> I was not harmed in the collision, and no medical attention has been sought. I was wearing my seatbelt before and during the collision. None of the airbags deployed.
> 
> My Model 3 is not drivable as the front left wheel is completely shattered, and the axle is out of alignment. The damage is severe on the left of the front bumper, running to the front lip of the driver's door, and is moderately severe from there to the left of the back bumper. The vehicle has been towed to a shop, and at 09:00 today, I will accompany the vehicle on a tow truck to Thessaloniki. I am towing the car there under recommendation from locals as more resources are available there, including resources to repatriate the vehicle back to the United States. I will make a decision soon as to whether or not it makes sense to bring this car back to the United States in an attempt to fix it, as the cost to repair the vehicle may substantially exceed its value after repair or salvage value.
> 
> Tesla states in an on-screen warning that both hands should be on the wheel when Autopilot is activated. Furthermore, Tesla states that drivers should be paying attention and monitoring the performance of Autopilot at all times. It is likely true that if all drivers obeyed the warnings surrounding this software, that most of the collisions we hear about in the press would never happen. Autopilot has limitations that currently can only be overcome through human intervention. For example, it cannot detect stationary objects, which explains collisions where Model S has rear-ended stationary vehicles parked on the side of the road.
> 
> By looking at my navigation and by not having both hands on the wheel, I was not paying full attention to the road while the vehicle was in Autopilot and was not following Tesla's directions in regards to the correct use of the software. I want to make it clear that I take responsibility in regards to my actions. With that being said, I do not believe that there are many Tesla owners who, when using Autopilot, always keep both hands on the wheel and provide their undivided attention to monitoring the road and the software. This collision was directly caused by the Autopilot software seriously malfunctioning and misinterpreting the road. This collision could have happened to anyone who does not expect a car travelling at a fast speed in a straight line to suddenly and without warning, veer off course. After tens of thousands of kilometres worth of Autopilot driving without major incidents, I have learned to trust the software. Autopilot provides users with a strong sense of security and reliability as it takes you to your destination and navigates traffic on your behalf. Clearly, I had become too trusting of the software.
> 
> Autopilot is marketed as a driver assistance feature that reduces stress and improves safety. However, the vigilance required to use the software, such as keeping both hands on the wheel and constantly monitoring the system for malfunctions or abnormal behaviour, arguably requires significantly more attention than just driving the vehicle normally without use of Autopilot. Furthermore, I believe that if Autopilot even has the small potential of misreading a clearly marked gore point, and has the potential to drive into a gore point and crash into a barrier, it should not be tested in beta, on the open road, and by normal consumers. My experience is not unique as many drivers have reported similar behaviour from Autopilot, and a fatal crash involving Autopilot on a Model X may have been caused by a disturbingly similar malfunction.
> 
> Many Tesla fans will likely dismiss this as fully my fault, but I implore those who believe so to take a full step back and put themselves in my shoes, as a driver who had used this amazing software for so long, and who could not have anticipated such a sudden and violent jerk of the wheel to one direction while travelling at a fast speed. I hope that my fellow owners will be less dismissive of various incidents regarding Autopilot, and understand that the general public views these severe collisions differently from the owner community. Tesla is moving quickly into the mass market, and potential customers in that segment aren't going to ask, "why were both of his hands not on the wheel while the car was in Autopilot?", rather, they are going to ask "why did the car swerve into the gore point without warning?". The autonomous driving movement as well as the Tesla community can only get stronger when we tackle these questions and resolve the issues behind them.
> 
> I love my Teslas and I have owned a Tesla since 2014. I am upset with myself for being part of the growing list of individuals who have been involved in collisions while their Tesla was on Autopilot. I strongly believe in the capability of self-driving vehicles to not only eliminate all collisions on the road but to revolutionise our society. However, malfunctions like this greatly reduce the public's confidence in a technology that should indeed be tested and rolled out to the public as soon as it is safe for use. I do not want to cause Tesla damage to its brand or image as I wholly support its mission and I am a big supporter. I only hope that Tesla will investigate this incident to determine what went wrong with the software, and make improvements that will enhance other people's experiences with the car.
> 
> I am very grateful to be alive after what could have easily been a fatal collision. This incident was not more severe thanks to an excellent crash barrier on the Greek highway. I want to thank everyone again for your messages of support. I am honoured to have had this opportunity to spread the EV movement not only around my country but around the world. In closing, I want to address some of my critics who have used this collision to laugh at me or to otherwise make fun of this incident. On this road trip, there have indeed been crazy posts where I push the limit of my car and I have only done these things to share my excitement about my Model 3 with others. Please understand that there was nothing out of the ordinary occurring before this collision. I was not sleeping at the wheel, I was not tired, I was not eating at the wheel (which by the way, I have not done before), no videos were being filmed - the vehicle was being operated normally. I am truly sorry and deeply regret that some of my actions have caused a bad taste in people's mouths, I ask those people to judge my road trip thus far as a whole and not by my craziest or worst moments. I have met with over 8000 people on the road in three continents and 25 countries, and have demonstrated that not only is it possible to drive an EV across the world, it is absolutely exhilarating and brings along great adventure along the way. I have also seen the potential and power of the EV owners community, which when leveraged, can make a great difference in our world. I ask those who disapprove of my actions to reconsider their stance, and I want to see what positive things can come of this collision.
> 
> What happens next on this road trip is uncertain. I will keep everyone posted."


Reading his write up bothers me.

On the one hand he admits fault for looking at his phone rather than the road at the point that the car veered. This is good.

However, he goes on to say autopilot has a serious fault and shouldn't be used on open roads as a result.

Here's my issue with that. When you're approaching an exchange where 1 lane becomes 2, you should be watching the road - even more so if you're in autopilot.

This accident was totally avoidable. Should autopilot get better? Of course. It will, that's what's so great about it.

However, just because he chose to look at his phone rather than the road doesn't mean we should suddenly turn off the feature for everyone else that can use it responsibly.

A frustrating end to You You's journey that frustrated me numerous times along the way.


----------



## Brokedoc

In Youyou’s case, it sounds like he wasn’t paying attention and AP tried to take the off ramp. He firmly grabbed the wheel, late, and disengaged AP and drove into the barrier.

I completely agree with youyou that many if not all Tesla’s do not keep both hands on the wheel. We are all taught to drive with two hands on the wheel but the vast majority, regardless of car, drive with one hand most of the time. I will also note that human nature is our biggest fault here. We become complacent and let our guard down and mistakes happen. As Tesla drivers get more comfortable with an advancing AP, we get sloppy and start doing things we would never do in a regular car.

With all commercial airplane accidents, the government does a root cause analysis not to assign blame but to fix the cause and prevent it from happening again. Commercial pilots flying a plane is a much more controlled, regulated situation than Tesla drivers and I fear the only fix for this will be to quickly develop AP to level 4 or FSD. 

Tesla is allowing unvetted Tesla owners to be AP beta testers without knowing the drivers’ physical or mental abilities or driving skills or intelligence. Drivers make bad decisions every day but when it happens in a Tesla, it jeopardizes the future of Tesla and the future of autonomy.


----------



## jsmay311

SoFlaModel3 said:


> Here's my issue with that. When you're approaching an exchange where 1 lane becomes 2, you should be watching the road - even more so if you're in autopilot.


Unless I'm badly misreading his account, it wasn't 1 lane splitting into 2. It was 2 lanes, with the left lane continuing straight and the right lane exiting.



> "The highway was *two lanes in each direction*, separated by a concrete median. The highway in my direction of travel divided at a fork, with the #2 right lane changing into the exit lane, and the #1 left lane remaining the lane for thru traffic. I was travelling in the #1 lane.
> [...]
> As the gore point began, approximately 8m before the crash barrier and end of the fork, my Model 3 veered suddenly and with great force to the right."


----------



## SoFlaModel3

jsmay311 said:


> Unless I'm badly misreading his account, it wasn't 1 lane splitting into 2. It was 2 lanes, with the left lane continuing straight and the right lane exiting.


Its really hard to tell from the picture @garsh posted looking back the other direction. Regardless he's driving in a tight area with a fork in the road and looking down at his phone instead of the road.

The ignorant commentary on Twitter is remarkable. I lose all faith


----------



## Henchman

Keep in mind , it seems the car was en route to Europe before the update in February, that significantly improved dealing with things like exit lanes and lane splitting. 
I bet he did Not have this update . And it's for reasons like this that you shouldn't ignore a manufacturer when they say, "Don't take route car to Europe. It’s not suppprted."


----------



## SoFlaModel3

Henchman said:


> Keep in mind , it seems the car was en route to Europe before the update in February, that significantly improved dealing with things like exit lanes and lane splitting.
> I bet he did Not have this update . And it's for reasons like this that you shouldn't ignore a manufacturer when they say, "Don't take route car to Europe. It's not suppprted."


That's a very good point. There was an update shortly after I got my car in February that made autopilot dramatically better. That was the one with smoother lane changes and better highway exchange!


----------



## LUXMAN

SoFlaModel3 said:


> He's publicly asking Tesla to investigate meanwhile the car has no connectivity in Europe and they can't get the logs without the car.


Sooooooo you are saying free Transpo of the car back to the US, paid for by Tesla. Hummmm.....


----------



## Dogwhistle

LUXMAN said:


> Sooooooo you are saying free Transpo of thr car back to the US, paid for by Tesla. Hummmm.....


I'm sure that's what he would like, as he continues to milk his 15 minutes with big fat "autopilot failure crash" headlines while he can. Ok, I'll stop now. Out.


----------



## SoFlaModel3

LUXMAN said:


> Sooooooo you are saying free Transpo of thr car back to the US, paid for by Tesla. Hummmm.....


He likes free stuff ... sure why not


----------



## RichEV

We need a better view of the lane markings in the southbound lanes prior to the exit. The google sat view is unclear. Probably the markings between the left & right lanes sort of disappear somewhere in the red oval. Autosteer really needs to learn to continue to hug the left side when the right marking veers wildly off to the right and the lane "expands quickly".


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## oey192

I used Autopilot extensively for the first time on Friday (got the car on Monday). While on I-5 in Seattle I experienced the car heading for the divider/gore as the lane I was in split into an exit. The car appeared to be trying to stay centered between the two sides of the lane that were getting farther and farther apart. I took control before anything bad happened but it goes to show that even with the February improvements it still has trouble at lane splits. I have not seen Tesla give any guidance that you should avoid the right most (or left most in the case of the exit I encountered) lane of a controlled access highway. If they know that there are specific cases (such as lanes splitting or merging) where Autopilot often doesn’t work as expected, they should have a list of these and present them onscreen to the driver the first time they engage Autopilot to make sure the driver is aware of times that they will need to be extra vigilant about what the car is doing
I was using 2018.18.3 when Autopilot “misbehaved” as described above


----------



## garsh

Maps link:
https://www.google.com/maps/@40.7996853,21.4408914,397m/data=!3m1!1e3

Yeah, it looks like the center dotted line may be faded more than normal in the southbound lanes right before the split.


----------



## LUXMAN

garsh said:


> Maps link:
> https://www.google.com/maps/@40.7996853,21.4408914,397m/data=!3m1!1e3
> 
> Yeah, it looks like the center dotted line may be faded more than normal in the southbound lanes right before the split.


IDK. It looks ok to me. It goes from one lane to two, so it looks to me the AP had to make a choice without input, then there was some possibly last second attempt to change course from the driver.


----------



## Jayc

It is admirable that Tesla is pushing the envelope of autonomous driving forward but I won't be getting AP. To me there can only be two modes of operation ; Either AP is purely a safety feature where it assists driver to avoid an accident or it has to be fully autonomous where driver does not need to look out. Anything intermediate is not possible in practice without the two parties blaming each other when it goes wrong. It is no different to a car with two drivers each with access to navigation controls. 

BTW You you xue should have kept AP switched off because it's not supported in the EU for Model 3. Some people have an incorrect idea of deep learning systems in that they fail to understand it works as part of a fully connected system with known datapoints in the database to make it effective. Just because AP is supported in Model 3 it does not mean the car can be taken to for example, the amazon rainforest and it will properly navigate it's way through its off road paths - just not how it works.


----------



## SoFlaModel3

Jayc said:


> It is admirable that Tesla is pushing the envelope of autonomous driving forward but I won't be getting AP. To me there can only be two modes of operation ; Either AP is purely a safety feature where it assists driver to avoid an accident or it has to be fully autonomous where driver does not need to look out. Anything intermediate is not possible in practice without the two parties blaming each other when it goes wrong. It is no different to a car with two drivers each with access to navigation controls.
> 
> BTW You you xue should have kept AP switched off because it's not supported in the EU for Model 3. Some people have an incorrect idea of deep learning systems in that they fail to understand it works as part of a fully connected system with known datapoints in the database to make it effective. Just because AP is supported in Model 3 it does not mean the car can be taken to for example, the amazon rainforest and it will properly navigate it's way through its off road paths - just not how it works.


I respectfully disagree, so long as the product isn't marketed as full self driving (and in this case it's not). What's wrong with having a convenience feature that's better than standard cruise control and traffic aware cruise control, but requires an alert driver during operation?

I mean driving a car in an of itself is dangerous and people still drive drunk, text, put on makeup, shave, and look around in the cabin. All of those activities in a car are far more dangerous than semi-autonomous driving.


----------



## Matthias Fritz

wow, what a mess. so nobody was injured? that's a good sign at least. i followed his road trip and waited desperately for him to come to vienna. no, he didn't came. i think it got delayed 10-times. but luckily i got to see a Model 3 yesterday. and it was great! i visited the event called "Day of the e-mobility" here in austria and there was a guy who imported a Model 3 from the States. so now i am double lucky i got to see it because YouYou's car is no longer interesting, unfortunately.


----------



## Jayc

SoFlaModel3 said:


> I respectfully disagree, so long as the product isn't marketed as full self driving (and in this case it's not). What's wrong with having a convenience feature that's better than standard cruise control and traffic aware cruise control, but requires an alert driver during operation?


Then it is an enhanced cruise control until it is fully autonomous and only then can it be called autopilot. Some of us on this forum may be fully capable of understanding the limitations of AP as it is today but we are talking about a minority. Now I work in the tech industry and I am on the forums daily yet even I don't have a clear understanding of where the limitations are. Tesla's fine print says keep your hands on the steering wheel and your attention on the road but where does that leave us ? Sure when I get my car and if it has AP I might use it to impress others the first few months but that's about it for me.

Imagine this scenario - I teach my 7yr old how to drive. Now with each day I see him improve in confidence and each day I notice I require less attention on the road to guide him. Until one fine day I doze off to sleep for 1 minute and I discover the hard way that a 7yr old kid just doesn't have the maturity and experience to cope with emergencies. The problem there was not with my 7yr old but with the way my brain gave up attention and that happens subconsciously, not something I can claim to have any control over - not even if there is a fine print somewhere advising otherwise.


----------



## SoFlaModel3

Jayc said:


> Then it is an enhanced cruise control until it is fully autonomous and only then can it be called autopilot. Some of us on this forum may be fully capable of understanding the limitations of AP as it is today but we are talking about a minority. Now I work in the tech industry and I am on the forums daily yet even I don't have a clear understanding of where the limitations are. Tesla's fine print says keep your hands on the steering wheel and your attention on the road but where does that leave us ? Sure when I get my car and if it has AP I might use it to impress others the first few months but that's about it for me.
> 
> Imagine this scenario - I teach my 7yr old how to drive. Now with each day I see him improve in confidence and each day I notice I require less attention on the road to guide him. Until one fine day I doze off to sleep for 1 minute and I discover the hard way that a 7yr old kid just doesn't have the maturity and experience to cope with emergencies. The problem there was not with my 7yr old but with the way my brain gave up attention and that happens subconsciously, not something I can claim to have any control over - not even if there is a fine print somewhere advising otherwise.


You're right this is enhanced / smart cruise control. It's a driver assistance tool, not a driver replacement tool. Full self driving is the driver replacement tool.

I would say the name is a bad name as it may infer that that I can "turn on autopilot" and take a break.


----------



## MelindaV

LUXMAN said:


> It goes from one lane to two


I thought the explanation You You gave was it was two separate lanes, the right most exiting and he was in the left lane when the car spontaneously took off for the right lane (exit). no?


----------



## SoFlaModel3

MelindaV said:


> I thought the explanation You You gave was it was two separate lanes, the right most exiting and he was in the left lane when the car spontaneously took off for the right lane (exit). no?


It may be 2 separate lanes, but it looks like that center line faded leaving it down to a single wide lane for a short amount of time before it splits in both directions.


----------



## MelindaV

from the sat image I can see the dashed line, assuming the sat image is at all current.


----------



## MelindaV

from You You's description that John quoted, it sounds like lane markings was not the problem


John said:


> The highway was well-marked, well-maintained, and well-lit. The conditions were dry, and there was no traffic around me. The highway was two lanes in each direction, separated by a concrete median. The highway in my direction of travel divided at a fork, with the #2 right lane changing into the exit lane, and the #1 left lane remaining the lane for thru traffic. I was travelling in the #1 lane.


If there was any blame to be put on the road conditions I am 100% sure You You would have.


----------



## LUXMAN

MelindaV said:


> I thought the explanation You You gave was it was two separate lanes, the right most exiting and he was in the left lane when the car spontaneously took off for the right lane (exit). no?


Ok I see it. Upon closer inspection, it looks like it is 2 lanes with faded dashed lines that look like new lines as it approaches the divider. So if the autopilot was doing just fine, and the lane markings get better, how could those lines be misinterpreted by the AP?


----------



## SoFlaModel3

MelindaV said:


> from You You's description that John quoted, it sounds like lane markings was not the problem
> 
> If there was any blame to be put on the road conditions I am 100% sure You You would have.


If you look at the picture that @RichEV posted the section he circled in red makes it look like the dashed line is barely visible. Also going 75 MPH in that tight area in autopilot seems wreckless. My gut feeling is if he was in the US on a section of road like that the car would have limited autosteer speed for that area.

Also, You You likes clicks, attention, and followers - I try my best to always assume positive intent, but in this case I'm not sold he gets his point across saying car crashed because I was in autopilot on a poorly marked road.


----------



## Love

When my wife got her car, and again when I got mine, enhanced autopilot was off by default. We had to activate it ourselves using the screens/navigating the menus while a Tesla employee explained it was level 2 (of 5 levels of autonomous driving). I was told they’re not even legally allowed to turn it on for us. My wife and I were already aware what we were getting because of our own research in to Tesla and EAP (reading a lot about something we were investing a good amount of money into as a vehicle), it blows my mind someone would trust their life (and others) to something they haven’t read about, or possibly didn’t understand (or read and understood but have decided to do whatever they want). It’s stated so clearly everywhere and reinforced by employees, current owners, etc. that it just makes me so irritated reading about anyone trying to blame a tool clearly stated in its function as they try to use it for more that it’s currently able to do. 

Personal responsibility has become a super power in the world it seems.

Not saying that’s the case here, I haven’t read all the posts of the owner and I’m definitely glad no one was hurt.
I’m also not sure what this post is getting at, it’s not meant to argue for or against anyone here, but I did feel it worth mentioning.


----------



## KarenRei

Jayc said:


> BTW You you xue should have kept AP switched off because it's not supported in the EU for Model 3. Some people have an incorrect idea of deep learning systems in that they fail to understand it works as part of a fully connected system with known datapoints in the database to make it effective. Just because AP is supported in Model 3 it does not mean the car can be taken to for example, the amazon rainforest and it will properly navigate it's way through its off road paths - just not how it works.


AP is widely used in the EU, but I think it's pretty dumb to use it in a place where Tesla has no presence (Greece). Every location's streets and markings have their own quirks; if your location hasn't been in the training dataset, well, good luck with that.

I also hope that You You has kept in mind that - as always - Tesla will release the results of the logs leading up to the crash. Anything about how long it had been since he touched the wheel, or what the car actually did, will come out. Might as well be open and up front about everything.


----------



## Jarrod Skrehot

SoFlaModel3 said:


> Reading his write up bothers me.
> 
> On the one hand he admits fault for looking at his phone rather than the road at the point that the car veered. This is good.
> 
> However, he goes on to say autopilot has a serious fault and shouldn't be used on open roads as a result.
> 
> Here's my issue with that. When you're approaching an exchange where 1 lane becomes 2, you should be watching the road - even more so if you're in autopilot.
> 
> This accident was totally avoidable. Should autopilot get better? Of course. It will, that's what's so great about it.
> 
> However, just because he chose to look at his phone rather than the road doesn't mean we should suddenly turn off the feature for everyone else that can use it responsibly.
> 
> A frustrating end to You You's journey that frustrated me numerous times along the way.


I've not been following his journey at all, other than the video that was posted on @model3owners club when he was in Canada. Has he ever done a back to back cross country road trip (USA and Europe)? One is tiring enough, but two? I'd imagine it is extremely tiring and according to others, he admits he's fallen asleep around 25 times. This event is first unfortunate, however, highly avoidable. The driver is obviously exhausted, admits to using autopilot incorrectly, and what I take away from this more than anything is the need to use his phone for directions. Tesla advised him not to take his car to Europe (don't know the specifics of why, assuming because multiple updates would be coming to early Model 3 owners, for which he would have no connectivity?). Navigation obviously is not available at this time in Europe, otherwise, why would he be using his phone, second, there is blutooth connectivity for verbal directions if you use or prefer Waze or another direction assist program, which it sounds like he was not using since he states he was looking at his phone (was he maybe texting?). He himself has stated not to "trust" autopilot and agrees with how Tesla has stated it should be used but is using it in unfamiliar situations (his entire road trip are places he's never been), admittedly not using it correctly but then in the same breathe criticizing Tesla for releasing it. If he followed the directions that he himself explained in his writeup, he'd still be road-tripping. I hope he or Tesla does bring the car back and gets all of the details. Undoubtedly there are going to be hundreds or thousands of warnings for him to have his hands on the wheel.


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## Jarrod Skrehot

Jayc said:


> Then it is an enhanced cruise control until it is fully autonomous and only then can it be called autopilot. Some of us on this forum may be fully capable of understanding the limitations of AP as it is today but we are talking about a minority. Now I work in the tech industry and I am on the forums daily yet even I don't have a clear understanding of where the limitations are. Tesla's fine print says keep your hands on the steering wheel and your attention on the road but where does that leave us ? Sure when I get my car and if it has AP I might use it to impress others the first few months but that's about it for me.
> 
> Imagine this scenario - I teach my 7yr old how to drive. Now with each day I see him improve in confidence and each day I notice I require less attention on the road to guide him. Until one fine day I doze off to sleep for 1 minute and I discover the hard way that a 7yr old kid just doesn't have the maturity and experience to cope with emergencies. The problem there was not with my 7yr old but with the way my brain gave up attention and that happens subconsciously, not something I can claim to have any control over - not even if there is a fine print somewhere advising otherwise.


awful analogy as 7 year olds can't legally drive and can still have trouble tying their own shoes. Autopilot should be used in the way that it is described in the owners manual with no deviation, that is "where it leaves you."


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## teslarob

KarenRei said:


> I also hope that You You has kept in mind that - as always - Tesla will release the results of the logs leading up to the crash. Anything about how long it had been since he touched the wheel, or what the car actually did, will come out. Might as well be open and up front about everything.


I can't wait for this part  The truth is out there!


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## Michael Russo

SoFlaModel3 said:


> You're right this is enhanced / smart cruise control. It's a driver assistance tool, not a driver replacement tool. Full self driving is the driver replacement tool.
> 
> I would say the name is a bad name as it may infer that that I can "turn on autopilot" and take a break.


For me it is more than 'enhanced cruise control'... that is how I'd characterize Adaptive Cruise.

I am not an airplane pilot, yet always though that then the pilot switches on autopilot on a plane there is always someone in the ****pit watching & ready to intervene... hence I can live with the name, yet as agreed with @youyouxue in a Twitter exchange today, education of the masses is still a good plan so folks don't get the wrong pic...

So is it foolproof...? No. Does it significantly contribute to driving comfort and, funnily enough, fun, IMHO, for sure!


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## Michael Russo

SoFlaModel3 said:


> It may be 2 separate lanes, but it looks like that center line faded leaving it down to a single wide lane for a short amount of time before it splits in both directions.


Hence my point about speed limit before such a road division normally being reduced... at least in most European countries... from 120 down to 80 or 90 km/h... Still too fast of course if you're not ready to intervene (as you should)...


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## SoFlaModel3

Michael Russo said:


> For me it is more than 'enhanced cruise control'... that is how I'd characterize Adaptive Cruise.
> 
> I am not an airplane pilot, yet always though that then the pilot switches on autopilot on a plane there is always someone in the ****pit watching & ready to intervene... hence I can live with the name, yet as agreed with @youyouxue in a Twitter exchange today, education of the masses is still a good plan so folks don't get the wrong pic...
> 
> So is it foolproof...? No. Does it significantly contribute to driving comfort and, funnily enough, fun, IMHO, for sure!





Michael Russo said:


> Hence my point about speed limit before such a road division normally being reduced... at least in most European countries... from 120 down to 80 or 90 km/h... Still too fast of course if you're not ready to intervene (as you should)...


I ended up blocking him on Twitter - just not worth the energy with his nonsense.

Education of the masses is always good, but I don't believe that's what he's after.


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## svusa11

Today, I decided to try AP on one of internal road which was partially paved recently. As road surface changes, solid Yellow fades away while road is taking couple of turns. AP was able to keep the car, right in the center! I'm not sure how but somehow it figured it out...

that said, I doubt if AP would work irrationally on road that is well marked. I have noticed, on a sharp turn it tries to stick closers to Yellow line (which makes me bit uncomfortable). May be in this case speed could have been a factor.

Drink, Drive and use AP responsibly.


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## SimonMatthews

SoFlaModel3 said:


> He's wreckless.


Not any more. That was a pretty good wreck.


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## SimonMatthews

How was he charging his Model 3? Don't they have different connectors in Europe, such as Mennekes?


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## SoFlaModel3

SimonMatthews said:


> How was he charging his Model 3? Don't they have different connectors in Europe, such as Mennekes?


He had some kind of rigged DIY charger I believe (could be wrong).


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## Tom Hudson

If it's true that he told someone "Autopilot will kill you", then he's an idiot for having it activated.

And I'd like to hear the input of a Model3 owner who has used Autopilot about his statement "my Model 3 veered suddenly and with great force to the right" -- From what I've heard about the Autopilot behavior, that sounds like a load of BS.

The thing that sucks about this is it's yet another hunk of red meat tossed out for the anti-Tesla media out there -- another Autopilot crash for them to splash on their front page or Facebook click-bait, and we don't need any more of that.


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## SoFlaModel3

Tom Hudson said:


> If it's true that he told someone "Autopilot will kill you", then he's an idiot for having it activated.
> 
> And I'd like to hear the input of a Model3 owner who has used Autopilot about his statement "my Model 3 veered suddenly and with great force to the right" -- From what I've heard about the Autopilot behavior, that sounds like a load of BS.
> 
> The thing that sucks about this is it's yet another hunk of red meat tossed out for the anti-Tesla media out there -- another Autopilot crash for them to splash on their front page or Facebook click-bait, and we don't need any more of that.


I made this video yesterday of autopilot not killing me and me disengaging it before the chance of an accident. In other words, responsible use. To answer your question about sudden veering, it's unlikely. However if you're using autopilot irresponsibly with too much speed in a tight transition area I can see it happening. Autopilot reduces the permitted autosteer speed based upon the road, which I believe was not possible for the Model 3 in Europe so he was most likely carrying more speed than the car would have allowed in normal circumstances.


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## Jarrod Skrehot

SoFlaModel3 said:


> I made this video yesterday of autopilot not killing me and me disengaging it before the chance of an accident. In other words, responsible use. To answer your question about sudden veering, it's unlikely. However if you're using autopilot irresponsibly with too much speed in a tight transition area I can see it happening. Autopilot reduces the permitted autosteer speed based upon the road, which I believe was not possible for the Model 3 in Europe so he was most likely carrying more speed than the car would have allowed in normal circumstances.


looks like autopilot was ignoring the huge truck to your right and needs some updating to its merging algorithm.


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## Dogwhistle

Jarrod Skrehot said:


> looks like autopilot was ignoring the huge truck to your right and needs some updating to its merging algorithm.


And there is the problem. People think it can do things it can't. There is no merging algorithm. Autopilot does NOT merge. At all. It maintains speed behind the vehicle in front of it, and tries to stay between white lines as best it can. That's it. It does not handle traffic conflicts at all. And that's all OK, people just need to be educated about it from the get-go!


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## Jarrod Skrehot

Dogwhistle said:


> And there is the problem. People think it can do things it can't. There is no merging algorithm. Autopilot does NOT merge. At all. It maintains speed behind the vehicle in front of it, and tries to stay between white lines as best it can. That's it. It does not handle traffic conflicts at all. And that's all OK, people just need to be educated about it from the get-go!


I completely agree. I can't wait for my car, however, that video is the perfect example of why I think Full Level 5 Autonomous driving is so far off and nowhere near worth the investment of paying up front when you order. Lets not kid ourselves.


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## MelindaV

SoFlaModel3 said:


> In other words, responsible use.


as you drive holding a phone to video it 

just giving you a bad time, but really this is a great example of Autopilot acting exactly as it should, but not capable of navigating the specific road/lane configuration.


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## Brokedoc

Jarrod Skrehot said:


> I completely agree. I can't wait for my car, however, that video is the perfect example of why I think Full Level 5 Autonomous driving is so far off and nowhere near worth the investment of paying up front when you order. Lets not kid ourselves.


I think Tesla should add marketing material in their stores and online to revise their AP marketing and also educate the public.
The current naming system for AP (AP1, AP2, AP2.5) can be very confusing for those that are not as knowledgeable.

I propose renaming the function to:
Autopilot Level 2
Autopilot Level 3
Autopilot Level 4
FSD Level 5

The recent blog that @TrevP tweeted very nicely described in layman's terms the different autonomy levels:
Level 2:
combination of human and computer with human in charge
Level 3:
computer in charge but human must be able to take charge at a moment's notice
Level 4:
computer in charge and can get out of trouble but cannot drive in all conditions on its own
Level 5:
computer never needs assistance

source: https://m.dailykos.com/stories/2018/5/29/1767826/-The-War-on-Tesla-Musk-and-the-Fight-for-the-Future

This change in marketing would basically scream at the users that AP doesn't equal FSD and reduce FUD being spread by the media.
Hello, TESLA? Are you trolling?


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## MelindaV

Brokedoc said:


> I think Tesla should add marketing material in their stores and online to revise their AP marketing and also educate the public.
> The current naming system for AP (AP1, AP2, AP2.5) can be very confusing for those that are not as knowledgeable.
> 
> I propose renaming the function to:
> Autopilot Level 2
> Autopilot Level 3
> Autopilot Level 4
> FSD Level 5
> 
> The recent blog that @TrevP tweeted very nicely described in layman's terms the different autonomy levels:
> Level 2:
> combination of human and computer with human in charge
> Level 3:
> computer in charge but human must be able to take charge at a moment's notice
> Level 4:
> computer in charge and can get out of trouble but cannot drive in all conditions on its own
> Level 5:
> computer never needs assistance
> 
> source: https://m.dailykos.com/stories/2018/5/29/1767826/-The-War-on-Tesla-Musk-and-the-Fight-for-the-Future
> 
> This change in marketing would basically scream at the users that AP doesn't equal FSD and reduce FUD being spread by the media.
> Hello, TESLA? Are you trolling?


although, Tesla's FSD (and most other autonomous brands as well) will more likely be Level 4, not Level 5. 
Level 4 'allows' human interception. Level 5 does not. 
-and/or-
Level 5 could drive down an unpaved trail in a jungle while Level 4 likely could not.
-and/or-
Level 4 could be geofenced, level 5 is not


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## Tchris

Brokedoc said:


> I think Tesla should add marketing material in their stores and online to revise their AP marketing and also educate the public.
> The current naming system for AP (AP1, AP2, AP2.5) can be very confusing for those that are not as knowledgeable.
> 
> I propose renaming the function to:
> Autopilot Level 2
> Autopilot Level 3
> Autopilot Level 4
> FSD Level 5
> 
> The recent blog that @TrevP tweeted very nicely described in layman's terms the different autonomy levels:
> Level 2:
> combination of human and computer with human in charge
> Level 3:
> computer in charge but human must be able to take charge at a moment's notice
> Level 4:
> computer in charge and can get out of trouble but cannot drive in all conditions on its own
> Level 5:
> computer never needs assistance
> 
> source: https://m.dailykos.com/stories/2018/5/29/1767826/-The-War-on-Tesla-Musk-and-the-Fight-for-the-Future
> 
> This change in marketing would basically scream at the users that AP doesn't equal FSD and reduce FUD being spread by the media.
> Hello, TESLA? Are you trolling?


I never have liked Tesla's use of the term Autopilot. To me, and most people it implies something that it is not. Until the car is truly self driving, I would prefer the term Driver Assist Level-1, 2, etc. I know it's all terminology, but I think it would help to reduce misconceptions about the car's automated capabilities.


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## MelindaV

it's just a name. 
Did anyone buy a Fiesta and expect it to come with a mariachi band in the back seat? 

please tell me people are not stupid enough to assume capabilities based on a name.


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## Brokedoc

MelindaV said:


> although, Tesla's FSD (and most other autonomous brands as well) will more likely be Level 4, not Level 5.
> Level 4 'allows' human interception. Level 5 does not.
> -and/or-
> Level 5 could drive down an unpaved trail in a jungle while Level 4 likely could not.
> -and/or-
> Level 4 could be geofenced, level 5 is not


You are correct that we can subdivide autonomy levels but then it becomes increasingly complicated for the general public. For example, take the example of an autonomous car that in the USA may be Level 5 but take the same car overseas and it may drop to Level 4 because the supporting computer system doesn't have enough data or learning and then it would drop to Level 3 when taken into a jungle.

The official levels are vague and subject to revision. NHTSA has adopted the SAE definition. At all levels, the manufacturer has the OPTION to allow driver control but levels 4 and 5 do not REQUIRE IT. https://www.nhtsa.gov/technology-innovation/automated-vehicles-safety


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## KarenRei

MelindaV said:


> it's just a name.
> Did anyone buy a Fiesta and expect it to come with a mariachi band in the back seat?


I don't know, I've had some good ideas in my Insight 

Note: For anyone who bought a Mitsubishi Pajero, please don't describe the things you've done in it


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## Jayc

Brokedoc said:


> You are correct that we can subdivide autonomy levels but then it becomes increasingly complicated for the general public. For example, take the example of an autonomous car that in the USA may be Level 5 but take the same car overseas and it may drop to Level 4 because the supporting computer system doesn't have enough data or learning and then it would drop to Level 3 when taken into a jungle.
> 
> The official levels are vague and subject to revision. NHTSA has adopted the SAE definition. At all levels, the manufacturer has the OPTION to allow driver control but levels 4 and 5 do not REQUIRE IT. https://www.nhtsa.gov/technology-innovation/automated-vehicles-safety
> 
> View attachment 9505
> View attachment 9506


So basically until level 5 is reached, autonomous systems can only be expected to cope with "certain circumstances" - the full set (I imagine) being the set of scenarios that a human being will most likely be able to cope with reliably and repetitively.

I think level 5 is clear in its definition - no ambiguity to me at least but the levels below that are vague and easily misunderstood.


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## Tchris

MelindaV said:


> it's just a name.
> Did anyone buy a Fiesta and expect it to come with a mariachi band in the back seat?
> 
> please tell me people are not stupid enough to assume capabilities based on a name.


The difference is that Autopilot is a name that implies a function. Sticking with automobiles, it would be similar to park, reverse, drive, neutral, cruise control, etc. Ford "Fiesta" implies no function of the car at all. The term autopilot clearly implies a function of the car, but exactly what that function entails has different meaning to different people. If you don't believe that, just look at the headlines related to Tesla vehicle accidents, and other EVs, while "autopilot" was engaged.


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## Brokedoc

Jayc said:


> So basically until level 5 is reached, autonomous systems can only be expected to cope with "certain circumstances" - the full set (I imagine) being the set of scenarios that a human being will most likely be able to cope with reliably and repetitively.
> 
> I think level 5 is clear in its definition - no ambiguity to me at least but the levels below that are vague and easily misunderstood.


Yes, there's lots of wiggle room under level 5 but my interpretation of level 4 is that the car can self drive 95% of the time except in extreme situations like tire blowout, rear toe link failure, blizzard, heavy rain, etc.


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## garsh

Tchris said:


> I never have liked Tesla's use of the term Autopilot. To me, and most people it implies something that it is not.


An airplane autopilot just maintains speed, altitude, and heading. It doesn't land. It doesn't avoid the paths of other planes. It still requires a pilot to operate the plane.

I think the problem is that some people are under the impression that an autopilot does much more than it actually does.


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## KarenRei

garsh said:


> An airplane autopilot just maintains speed, altitude, and heading. It doesn't land. It doesn't avoid the paths of other planes. It still requires a pilot to operate the plane.
> 
> I think the problem is that some people are under the impression that an autopilot does much more than it actually does.


And I think that overwhelmingly said people are not Tesla owners.

As Musk noted in the last conference call, it's a myth that Autopilot crashes are generally from newbies who think that it's self driving. They're mainly from experienced users who get overconfident in the car's ability and stop paying attention. Newbies are generally paranoid about the car driving itself, and hypervigilant.


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## Tchris

T


garsh said:


> An airplane autopilot just maintains speed, altitude, and heading. It doesn't land. It doesn't avoid the paths of other planes. It still requires a pilot to operate the plane.
> 
> I think the problem is that some people are under the impression that an autopilot does much more than it actually does.


That is exactly right. I think that the general public and the media as well, think of Autopilot and Self Driving as one in the same. Hence the banner headlines when a vehicle with "Autopilot" engaged is involved in an accident. The implication is that if a vehicle with autopilot engaged can hit a stationary object, or another vehicle, it is obviously flawed technology. Do you think they are aware of EAP Level 1, 2, 3..? Not all people on this forum are even aware of the features and limitations of EAP and I would consider this group to be in the top 10% (conservatively) of Tesla knowledge. So, bottom line, when you name something "Autopilot" that is not true self driving and not intended to be, you are asking for trouble.


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## SoFlaModel3

MelindaV said:


> as you drive holding a phone to video it
> 
> just giving you a bad time, but really this is a great example of Autopilot acting exactly as it should, but not capable of navigating the specific road/lane configuration.


I was waiting for that reply!!!


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## Maevra

"Autopilot" was probably chosen because it's the word that requires the least amount of explanation.

Someone says "autopilot" and everyone thinks "oh, like when an airplane flies itself!" because that's the default super-dumbed-down example. Meanwhile pilots everywhere are groaning "but it doesn't work exactly the way you think!"

Personally I blame us, the general public, for perpetuating the misconception. I'm guilty of that because when I told my non-techy grandma what "Autopilot" was, I just said "the car drives itself."

It was easier than saying "AP allows the car to steer, and stay in its lane, and adjust for traffic in front and maintain its speed relative to the car in front and brake if needed and..and.... Grandma? Grandma are you still awake?"

I stopped saying "car drives itself" and just say now "it's super fancy cruise control".

Anyone who is serious about buying a Tesla with AP should take it upon themselves to be more educated about the limits of the system. There is only so much Tesla can do without them forcibly shoving the manual down our throats.


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## Michael Russo

SoFlaModel3 said:


> I (...) Autopilot reduces the permitted autosteer speed based upon the road, which I believe was not possible for the Model 3 in Europe so he was most likely carrying more speed than the car would have allowed in normal circumstances. (...)


Can't comment on whether that Model 3 was able to do that or not. Red Dragon sure _does_ that, no AP1 usage above the recognized speed limit. Which is one more reason I love it: more than driver assist, but also speed ticket avoidance!!


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## avoigt

Tom Hudson said:


> If it's true that he told someone "Autopilot will kill you", then he's an idiot for having it activated.
> 
> And I'd like to hear the input of a Model3 owner who has used Autopilot about his statement "my Model 3 veered suddenly and with great force to the right" -- From what I've heard about the Autopilot behavior, that sounds like a load of BS.
> 
> The thing that sucks about this is it's yet another hunk of red meat tossed out for the anti-Tesla media out there -- another Autopilot crash for them to splash on their front page or Facebook click-bait, and we don't need any more of that.


You should not compare AP in an M3 used in the US and Europe. The mapping is not proper in Eastern Europe and Greece could be affected by it, there has been no OTA since many weeks , Tesla did recommend not do do the EU trip.... and I could continue...


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## SoFlaModel3

Michael Russo said:


> Can't comment on whether that Model 3 was able to do that or not. Red Dragon sure _does_ that, no AP1 usage above the recognized speed limit. Which is one more reason I love it: more than driver assist, but also speed ticket avoidance!!


Big difference though is that You You's Model 3 was without Internet in Europe I think. Key being "I think". To that end I'm fairly certain he didn't have the latest software which really smoothed our autopilot as @avoigt alluded and likely wouldn't have had handling for speed per road type in Europe either.


----------

