# Heat in the cold weather?



## Drew

New to Teslas, I put a deposit on Model 3 and have been reading like crazy ever since. Question to how the car "warms" up in the winter compared to a gasoline? Living in Michigan I am pretty interested on how the car will operate in the cold.


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## TrevP

The best part of the Tesla is that heat comes from a heating element and not having to wait for a cold engine to warm up. You get instant heat. However it's best if the car has been sitting overnight and the battery is cold soaked, to precondition the car. Basically it means leave it plugged in but with your remote app on your phone, turn on the interior heat. The car will heat the interior and also the battery at the same time pulling from shore power. This ensures you don't waste energy heating the car and battery from just battery power.


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## Drew

Awesome good to know. Saw a Model S today and got me even more excited, when though still probably at least a year and a half away.


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## Van Shrider

TrevP said:


> The best part of the Tesla is that heat comes from a heating element and not having to wait for a cold engine to warm up. You get instant heat. However it's best if the car has been sitting overnight and the battery is cold soaked, to precondition the car. Basically it means leave it plugged in but with your remote app on your phone, turn on the interior heat. The car will heat the interior and also the battery at the same time pulling from shore power. This ensures you don't waste energy heating the car and battery from just battery power.


If it is -10F outside. How long will it take to heat up the batteries properly before departure?


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## TrevP

You can precondition up to 30 minutes at a time. My math is rough on the F to C conversion but 30 minutes ought to do the trick. Tesla's have a 6Kwh heater in the cars so it heats up really quickly.

Bjørn did a great video on preheating (preconditioning):


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## JeffinAZ

Drew said:


> New to Teslas, I put a deposit on Model 3 and have been reading like crazy ever since. Question to how the car "warms" up in the winter compared to a gasoline? Living in Michigan I am pretty interested on how the car will operate in the cold.


I'm more interested in how in how the A/C will function in the 100F+ temps we get here in AZ...


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## TrevP

A/C in the Tesla works fine. Tesla did their car testing in extremes such as Norway and Death Valley.


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## JeffinAZ

TrevP said:


> A/C in the Tesla works fine. Tesla did their car testing in extremes such as Norway and Death Valley.


Thanks for the info, Trevor! Now I'm really jazzed!


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## teslaliving

The heater can draw a lot of power so generally you leave it in range mode (which is lower power). Preheating saves you from getting into a cold car and I use it all the time in the winter. Only on VERY cold days do you need to turn on the higher power heat option but you then need to watch range.


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## garsh

I can't wait to get a 3.

I never use the heater in my Nissan Leaf because of how much it shortens the range. I just use the seat & steering wheel heaters, and bundle up.


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## Skione65

teslaliving said:


> The heater can draw a lot of power so generally you leave it in range mode (which is lower power). Preheating saves you from getting into a cold car and I use it all the time in the winter. Only on VERY cold days do you need to turn on the higher power heat option but you then need to watch range.


TL,

How cold is VERY COLD? And what kind of hit do you take on the range? I know it will depend on how 'hot' you run the heater.

Ski


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## EV_Future

I saw a video by Byorn, where he did several tests with no preheating and range mode off, no preheating and range mode on, then with preheating and at last recharging the car before the trip, which heats the battery at the same time.
In the first case he got 40% range loss, then 30% range loss, then 20% range loss. So precharging right before the trip wins.


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## TrevP

EV_Future said:


> I saw a video by Byorn, where he did several tests with no preheating and range mode off, no preheating and range mode on, then with preheating and at last recharging the car before the trip, which heats the battery at the same time.
> In the first case he got 40% range loss, then 30% range loss, then 20% range loss. So precharging right before the trip wins.


Yes, this is exactly why I mention in my videos that Lithium cells need to be thermally managed. They like to operate ideally at 28° centigrade. Low temps affect the chemistry a lot. If you leave a car outside in temperature extremes to "cold soak" the battery you get range loss. It's exacerbated by not plugging in the car because the battery will use energy from itself to run the heat pumps. So the moral here is "leave the car plugged into shore power" whenever possible.


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## garsh

TrevP said:


> If you leave a car outside in temperature extremes to "cold soak" the battery you get range loss.


To clarify, this range loss is large, but temporary. Range returns when the temperature rises again.
At least, this has been my experience with my non-thermally-managed Leaf.


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## Skione65

TrevP said:


> Yes, this is exactly why I mention in my videos that Lithium cells need to be thermally managed. They like to operate ideally at 28° centigrade. Low temps affect the chemistry a lot. If you leave a car outside in temperature extremes to "cold soak" the battery you get range loss. It's exacerbated by not plugging in the car because the battery will use energy from itself to run the heat pumps. So the moral here is "leave the car plugged into shore power" whenever possible.


 Ok.....here's my question. Actually afew. I watched Byorns video on heat and range mode, VERY informative. Excellent video. Answered a lot of questions for me.

Question 1.

I'm going to be leaving my car in an airport parking lot frequently for 4 days at a time cold soaking in the winter before I return to then drive 90 miles home (no shore power), more than likely AFTER driving 85-90 miles TO the airport....all on a single charge (things that make you say hmmmmmmm)!!! (I have been waiting Sooooooo long for this car, all it is, and the increased range-YES I WILL be paying whatever the cost for the larger battery). RANGE will be of utmost importance. What will be the best way to manage the lithium battery power concerning energy conservation in the winter with interior heat and battery usage. I know I'll need to keep the interior heat use to a MINIMUM to keep the range up, however I will NOT have shore power to pre charge, only ships power which will 'kill" range I imagine, looking at Byorns multiple tests and a 40% range decrease worst case with no Range Mode and no precharge.

Question 2.

Byron says it is considerably more efficient to use JUST the seat heater and not the cabin heater as far as the hit on range. Specs on the Model 3 are anybody's guess right now. My question is, I am not interested in leather interior. Never been a fan of leather. LOVE how it looks but just not practical for me. Prefer cloth. No flames please. I understand the pros and cons of each. Will the 3 even "offer" heated seats in cloth (ala the old Saab cloth interior heated seats which worked GREAT) or will they only be available in the leather premium upgrade? Hopefully the former and I'll be a happy camper.

Any advice and management expertise from 'S' owners please chime in.

Thanks in Advance for your expertise.

Ski


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## Dan Detweiler

Can't speak as an "S" owner...not even close!

But, I can speak as a Volt owner for the last 4 years. Heated seats make all the difference. Running them on cold winter mornings takes the edge off and results in very little range loss. Running the cabin heater drains the range significantly (15-20% in some cases). Another thing I have found to make a huge difference in my comfort is a heated steering wheel. I don't have it on my Volt but we do have it on my wife's Hyundai. If my hands and my butt are warm I am comfortable with no need for cabin heat.

I will definitely be getting the winter package on my Model 3 even though I live in Georgia. On winter mornings when it is down in the 20s it will make my commute a much more enjoyable experience. Also, don't forget that you can preheat your car before you unplug in the mornings. This makes a big difference too.

Dan


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## Skione65

Dan Detweiler said:


> Can't speak as an "S" owner...not even close!
> 
> But, I can speak as a Volt owner for the last 4 years. Heated seats make all the difference. Running them on cold winter mornings takes the edge off and results in very little range loss. Running the cabin heater drains the range significantly (15-20% in some cases). Another thing I have found to make a huge difference in my comfort is a heated steering wheel. I don't have it on my Volt but we do have it on my wife's Hyundai. If my hands and my butt are warm I am comfortable with no need for cabin heat.
> 
> I will definitely be getting the winter package on my Model 3 even though I live in Georgia. On winter mornings when it is down in the 20s it will make my commute a much more enjoyable experience. Also, don't forget that you can preheat your car before you unplug in the mornings. This makes a big difference too.
> 
> Dan


Dan,

Thank you for that information! Is your Volt cloth? Interesting about the difference a heated steering wheel makes. Impressive. Has Elon disclosed what the 'Winter Package' will include?

Ski


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## Dan Detweiler

My Volt is leather. I assume the winter package for the Model 3 will be the same as for the Model S.

Dan


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## TrevP

+1 on heated seats / colt weather package in cold climes. I have heated/cooled seats and a heated steering wheel in my car and I would never buy a car without them.

You've never lived until you've experienced a heated steering wheel in the winter


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## Dan Detweiler

Yup ^^^


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## garsh

I have a Leaf, and a long enough of a commute that I never run the inefficient heater. I've been fine with bundling up & using the heated seats & steering wheel, even on the coldest winter days.

It's perfectly fine, but it is an adjustment. Before I had the Leaf, I would drive to work in the winter wearing just a t-shirt, but with the heater on full-blast.


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## MelindaV

garsh said:


> I have a Leaf, and a long enough of a commute that I never run the inefficient heater. I've been fine with bundling up & using the heated seats & steering wheel, even on the coldest winter days.
> 
> It's perfectly fine, but it is an adjustment. Before I had the Leaf, I would drive to work in the winter wearing just a t-shirt, but with the heater on full-blast.


so how does the windshield do with fogging up? most of the winter, I have my hvac control set to defrost to keep the windows from fogging up on wet days as much or more than the foot-well heat blowing.


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## garsh

MelindaV said:


> so how does the windshield do with fogging up? most of the winter, I have my hvac control set to defrost to keep the windows from fogging up on wet days as much or more than the foot-well heat blowing.


I keep the HVAC set to defrost, with AC off, just to keep a little flow of air on the windshield.

Normally, that causes a Leaf to also start heating the HVAC fluid. I made a small modification to my car to add a switch. When the switch is on, the car believes the fluid is already at 90 degrees, and doesn't bother heating it up. I generally just leave that switch on.


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## teslaliving

Skione65 said:


> TL,
> 
> How cold is VERY COLD? And what kind of hit do you take on the range? I know it will depend on how 'hot' you run the heater.
> 
> Ski


When its below 0F then the heater in range mode can't do it even with seat heaters on full. You have to go for full heat which really burns charge. Then its ok. Some of the newer cars are sealed better so it may be a bit better than that on the newer ones although I've seen similar complaints.

Im in New England so we get some nasty weather.

For all but a couple of days a year its not a big deal.


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## Mike

Skione65 said:


> I'm going to be leaving my car in an airport parking lot frequently for 4 days at a time cold soaking in the winter before I return to then drive 90 miles home (no shore power), more than likely AFTER driving 85-90 miles TO the airport....all on a single charge (things that make you say hmmmmmmm)!!! (I have been waiting Sooooooo long for this car, all it is, and the increased range-YES I WILL be paying whatever the cost for the larger battery). RANGE will be of utmost importance. What will be the best way to manage the lithium battery power concerning energy conservation in the winter with interior heat and battery usage. I know I'll need to keep the interior heat use to a MINIMUM to keep the range up, however I will NOT have shore power to pre charge, only ships power which will 'kill" range I imagine, looking at Byorns multiple tests and a 40% range decrease worst case with no Range Mode and no precharge.


Your scenario is exactly like mine


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## Mike

Skione65 said:


> I am not interested in leather interior. Never been a fan of leather. LOVE how it looks but just not practical for me. Prefer cloth. No flames please.


100% agree. I've had leather in 3 cars, hated it. To hot or too cold. It gets a patina too soon. No flames from this corner


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## Mike

garsh said:


> Normally, that causes a Leaf to also start heating the HVAC fluid. I made a small modification to my car to add a switch. When the switch is on, the car believes the fluid is already at 90 degrees, and doesn't bother heating it up. I generally just leave that switch on.


garsh, I just checked out your instructions for your Leaf mod. Awesome checklist style of how-to. Very similar attention to detail that I used to apply when playing with 40 year old classic cars (e-pumps for carbs with no switches to worry about, etc)
When I was contemplating a Volt, I was ready to deal with the "Engine Running Due To Tempurature" mod (minor job compared to your Leaf mod).
With millions of Model 3s on the road in five years, it will be interesting to see what mods eventually come into vogue to deal with some unforseen but fixable thing. Cheers


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## MelindaV

I watched this 'road trip' video last night of a Canadian family traveling thru AB, BC, WA, OR and CA. 
At 38 minutes in a blur you can see where I drive ... and at 39 minutes he talks about how changing the cars heater doesn't make much of a difference with a Tesla, but adjusting your speed a bit does. They are traveling in November with snow on the ground in AB and BC and in the mid 30s around this part of the video, so not frigid, but I expect coming from Calgary they know cold. 
you also get a great 'tour' of the specific Supercharges they stopped at.


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## Skione65

MelindaV said:


> I watched this 'road trip' video last night of a Canadian family traveling thru AB, BC, WA, OR and CA.
> At 38 minutes in a blur you can see where I drive ... and at 39 minutes he talks about how changing the cars heater doesn't make much of a difference with a Tesla, but adjusting your speed a bit does. They are traveling in November with snow on the ground in AB and BC and in the mid 30s around this part of the video, so not frigid, but I expect coming from Calgary they know cold.
> you also get a great 'tour' of the specific Supercharges they stopped at.


@MelindaV,

Thanks! I'll check it out....I've read the same....speed variances I've been told have more of an effect on range....ESP. If you're critically low....I've been told slowing down helps milk the range somewhat if your limping to an SC.

Ski


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## MelindaV

the other interesting thing I learned from his video (from the Centralia, WA stop prior) was that sitting in gridlock traffic doesn't have much, if any impact on the battery. That particular exit he was stuck in traffic on, I often use for my fuel stop, and have been stuck in multi-mile, hour+ backups and watching the gas gauge get closer to empty. So that is exciting


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## Skione65

Just watched the vid.....amazing! I'm assuming he did that with time lapse on a GoPro....great vid. I've got a a GoPro 3+ My best 'take away' was that he mentioned at one SC stop as he pulled in that he was taking Bank 2A with 'no one' next to it (in Bank B) because the Supercharger "splits" the charging power between banks...so you want a bank with no one next to you if possible so you get the full hit of amperage charging the battery, which reduces wait time while recharging!

Ski


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## MelindaV

the same guy/family also has a number of other road trip videos, for the cold weather people, the Christmas one may be of interest.


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## Skione65

MelindaV said:


> the same guy/family also has a number of other road trip videos, for the cold weather people, the Christmas one may be of interest.


@MelindaV,

That would be great....do you have a link? Hopefully he gives cold weather range pointers....my biggest concern!

Ski


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## MelindaV

Skione65 said:


> @MelindaV,
> 
> That would be great....do you have a link? Hopefully he gives cold weather range pointers....my biggest concern!
> 
> Ski


I don't think he gave pointers so much as his overall strategy watching the trip meter and taking into account the headwinds and snow on the road surface


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## TrevP

That's Mike from Calgary. He has some good videos on charging and dealing with the cold of winter. It's something you adjust to but not a deal breaker.


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## Michel Cote

I read that model S has a simple heating element to heat the cabin.
Nissan Leaf have now a reversed AC called heat pump.

Is Tesla going to use a heat pump that can reduce by 66% the energy required to heat the cabin ?
Instead of 6kW heating element it would use 2kW heat pump to bring 6kW to the cabin

It's current technology to reverse the AC cycle to heat. Many houses have that as well as Nissan leaf.

It would help range in the winter.


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## MelindaV

read thru this post on TeslaMotors forum that ask why Tesla is not using a heat pump system that Nissan claims to be so much more efficient. Overall, I believe the system Nissan was using prior to their heat pump sucked. So it may sound like going with the heat pump is so much better, but really only relative to the inefficient system they had prior.


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## Michel Cote

politely, do we know if M3 will have a heat pump ?
If we dont know, it's ok.

Regards


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## Dan Detweiler

Nope, I don't think that has been stated yet. At least I have not heard it mentioned anywhere.

Dan


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## Michel Cote

Thanks

Time will tell.


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## Pinewold

MelindaV said:


> read thru this post on TeslaMotors forum that ask why Tesla is not using a heat pump system that Nissan claims to be so much more efficient. Overall, I believe the system Nissan was using prior to their heat pump sucked. So it may sound like going with the heat pump is so much better, but really only relative to the inefficient system they had prior.


Everybody might want to go back and read that thread, it is a excellent example of a few people who know what they are talking about (heatpump enthusiasts) trying to drag Luddities out of the twenty century. While a few of the concerns were true twenty years ago, they have long since been solved.

For the record
1) Icing is no longer an issue for heatpumps (they defrost just like a freezer)
2) Heatpumps work in a wide temperature range (wherever AC works to cool, and down to -5 Fahrenheit -20 C) They are installed from Canada to Texas.
3) Heatpumps use about 1/3 the electricity of resistance heating by moving heat
4) The only real difference between AC and a heatpump is a reversing valve
5) Air sourced Heatpumps do not require a ground source(well, pond, river)

Tesla's all come with AC, they come with over 95% of the parts needed for a heat pump. Even keeping the resistance heat as a backup is low cost.


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## Topher

MelindaV said:


> I believe the system Nissan was using prior to their heat pump sucked. So it may sound like going with the heat pump is so much better, but really only relative to the inefficient system they had prior.


All resistive heat is basically the same, and has the same efficiency. One would need to screw things up pretty badly to make an inefficient resistive heating system.

Heat pumps on the other hand move heat around, so they can acheive an 'efficiency' of around 300-400% (by not counting the heat from the environment). Since you don't generally PAY for the heat in the environment this mostly works.

Thank you kindly.


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## garsh

MelindaV said:


> Overall, I believe the system Nissan was using prior to their heat pump sucked.


To get the car to market quickly, they used a regular car heating system which uses engine coolant. But since there's nothing in the Leaf that gets hot enough to make the coolant hot, they used resistive heaters to heat the engine coolant. The coolant then heats the air. A very inefficient system. I believe they've since added direct resistive heating elements inside the cabin in addition to the heat pump.


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## chopr147

Heat pump enthusiasts? Is there a forum for that?


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## Englander

Can any of the Tesla drivers here tell us how detrimental the Tesla heater is to range?

I've got a 2015 Leaf, with the heat pump, and last winter we used the heater without even thinking about it, and the heater is _very_ effective. The predicted range reduction was only ever 4-5 miles. That was over the UK winter with temps hovering around freezing.

So if that is a lot better than the Tesla resistive heater, plus one here for the heat pump idea!


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## Topher

Englander said:


> Can any of the Tesla drivers here tell us how detrimental the Tesla heater is to range?


No idea what the heating system _actually_ uses, but I suspect it can't be much over 1kW (for heat, seats, defroster, etc.). So 5% of the power needed for driving 60 mph. Cuts your range from 215 to 204 (not including other wintertime losses).

Thank you kindly.


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## Englander

Topher said:


> No idea what the heating system _actually_ uses


On the Leaf I _do_ know, as there is a seperate power meter for the climate control. When it's first turned on in cold weather it starts off drawing about 3kW, then once the cabin is up to temperature, usually within a couple of minutes, it drops to around 1kW, switching in and out to maintain the temperature.

As I said before, the impact on range is minimal, anything between 2 and 5 miles, so I would say the heat pump model sounds more efficient than the Tesla heater from what you say.


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## MelindaV

Englander said:


> On the Leaf I _do_ know, as there is a seperate power meter for the climate control. When it's first turned on in cold weather it starts off drawing about 3kW, then once the cabin is up to temperature, usually within a couple of minutes, it drops to around 1kW, switching in and out to maintain the temperature.
> 
> As I said before, the impact on range is minimal, anything between 2 and 5 miles, so I would say the heat pump model sounds more efficient than the Tesla heater from what you say.


there was a youtube video link I posted a while back of a Canadian family (Michael Subasic from Calgary)on a road trip to So.California. In the video he commented the climate control makes little difference to the range. Speed and road conditions do. so be comfortable and warm and slow down a bit if you want to extend range.


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## chopr147

Or freeze your ass off just to get to the next supercharger


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## teslaliving

The problem with heat pumps for heating is they're only good down to a certain temperature then you need a backup heating option. One of the ideas above to use a combination for efficiency seems to make sense although it may add cost. 

Tesla has gotten away with the current system for years and the Model 3 has smaller interior space to heat (although a smaller battery too) so it may not be as large an issue.

Generally, though, the heater in the Model S is not very good so i'd hate to see them use one that has even less chance of getting the job done.


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## Dan Detweiler

Move to Georgia...problem solved. 

Dan


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## teslaliving

Dan Detweiler said:


> Move to Georgia...problem solved.
> 
> Dan


I was thinking NC


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## Dan Detweiler

teslaliving said:


> I was thinking NC


You don't want to move to North Carolina. You have to worry about what bathroom to use.
Oh wait...wrong forum for that, sorry.

Dan


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## Badback

Dan Detweiler said:


> Move to Georgia...problem solved.
> 
> Dan


Or, we could move Georgia to North Dakota.


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## teslaliving

Dan Detweiler said:


> You don't want to move to North Carolina. You have to worry about what bathroom to use.
> Oh wait...wrong forum for that, sorry.
> 
> Dan


No difference than MA. There's a lot of good reasons for getting out of MA.


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## Pinewold

@teslaliving, the point is that AC is a heat pump without a reversing valve. Add the reversing valve and you get a second much more efficient source of heat.


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## teslaliving

Pinewold said:


> @teslaliving, the point is that AC is a heat pump without a reversing valve. Add the reversing valve and you get a second much more efficient source of heat.


Right, thats why I said it would be good to augment and help possibly improve efficiency but can't replace the resistive heating completely.


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## Topher

teslaliving said:


> Right, thats why I said it would be good to augment and help possibly improve efficiency but can't replace the resistive heating completely.


Given the cost of a heat pump, adding a small resistive coil is negligible. My expectation, without doing the math, is that a heat pump would be cheaper than the cost of increased batteries needed for a car without one.

Thank you kindly.


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## LagrangePoint

I'm on V9, in 0c weather and 21C in car I noticed the A/C button in the HVAC settings stays on(blue/grayed out) in auto mode even though the cabin must be heating. Anyone else with similar experience? I'm wonder if it's indicating the condenser is on to cool battery or perhaps doing humidity control?

My previous car was a 2007 Honda CR-V, I always turned off A/C when it got cold out.


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## Bokonon

LagrangePoint said:


> I'm on V9, in 0c weather and 21C in car I noticed the A/C button in the HVAC settings stays on(blue/grayed out) in auto mode even though the cabin must be heating. Anyone else with similar experience? I'm wonder if it's indicating the condenser is on to cool battery or perhaps doing humidity control?
> My previous car was a 2007 Honda CR-V, I always turned off A/C when it got cold out.


I *think* the A/C button being "on" simply indicates that the system is *allowed* to run as needed, and not that it is necessarily cooling the cabin at the moment. It would be nice to have the V8 red / blue shading on the HVAC screen back so that it would be easy to tell what the system was doing at any given time.


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## MelindaV

AC also helps with defrost and drying the air, so even in an ICE car, the AC compressor will kick in when heating under certain conditions


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## evannole

Agree that it's desirable to run the AC compressor at least a good portion of the time in all but the driest climates.

Regarding the cooling vs. heating indication, I think they ought to make the temperature control(s) that are always visible at the bottom of the main screen either blue or red, depending on what the system is doing. Perhaps they could even vary the intensity of the color, depending on how different the ambient temperature is from the setting.


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