# BUG: audio controls negate backup camera view



## SPIKE's M3AWD (May 26, 2017)

When you press the Media Player icon while the car is in Reverse, Park or Drive the rear view camera display disappears. The view changes to the Navigation screen. All the other icons do not have this issue. You can press the rear view camera icon to get it back. I am on software 2018.28.2.

I notified Tesla via email. Anyone else notice this issue?

[mod edit - updated thread title]


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## MelindaV (Apr 2, 2016)

are you saying you reverse without looking over your shoulder, and depend only on the camera?


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## RichEV (Sep 21, 2017)

MelindaV said:


> are you saying you reverse without looking over your shoulder, and depend only on the camera?


I only look at the camera, but I don't move if it is not displaying correctly. Hard to imagine why I would touch the media player DURING a backup maneuver. (Although my granddaughter likes having the rear camera on while we are driving her around)


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## quadmasta (Jul 24, 2018)

MelindaV said:


> are you saying you reverse without looking over your shoulder, and depend only on the camera?


Are you saying you have the field of view you need looking out of the back of a Model 3? The camera sees *far* more than is visible by looking out the back windshield. The rear visibility is pretty horrible.


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## GDN (Oct 30, 2017)

I want to know who messes with the radio while backing up? . There is an icon/button to the left that should bring the camera back.


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## garsh (Apr 4, 2016)

SPIKE's M3AWD said:


> *When you press the Media Player icon while the car is in Reverse...*?


The "safety issue" is that you're playing around with the media player when you should be turning around and checking your mirrors. 


GDN said:


> There is an icon/button to the left that should bring the camera back.


I would imagine that you could also just shift to park temporarily, then shift back into reverse.


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## garsh (Apr 4, 2016)

quadmasta said:


> Are you saying you have the field of view you need looking out of the back of a Model 3?


It may not be great, but it's definitely enough.


> The camera sees *far* more than is visible by looking out the back windshield.


The camera sees a lot *less* of the cars coming up and down the aisle.

The camera is great for see how close you are to the next car when backing into a parking space, or making sure some little kid isn't hiding behind the car. But one should never rely *only* on it for backing out of a parking space.


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## SoFlaModel3 (Apr 15, 2017)

Not to jump on the bandwagon here, but I don’t see this as a bug or an issue. If the driver makes the conscious choice to alter the display while backing up the end result is what they hoped would happen in reality.


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## NR4P (Jul 14, 2018)

Lexus cars do the same thing. Driver overrides manually what is on the screen is proper operation. 

Driver should be in control over automatic functions


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## SPIKE's M3AWD (May 26, 2017)

SoFlaModel3 said:


> Not to jump on the bandwagon here, but I don't see this as a bug or an issue. If the driver makes the conscious choice to alter the display while backing up the end result is what they hoped would happen in reality.


*This is a software bug. * The Media Player overrides the Rear View camera. It is does not happen when you touch the Climate Control icon. It does not happen when you touch the Control icon, Volume Control or any other icon.

*This is a safety issue. * All new cars sold in the USA must have a functional backup camera. Nothing should be able to obscure the Rear View camera. None of those icons should activate while the car is in reverse.


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## GDN (Oct 30, 2017)

SPIKE's M3AWD said:


> *It is a software bug. * The Media Player overrides the Rear View camera. It is does not happen when you touch the Climate Control icon. It does not happen when you touch the Control icon, Volume Control or any other icon.
> 
> *It is a safety issue. * All new cars sold in the USA must have a functional backup camera. Nothing should be able to obscure the Rear View camera. None of those icons should activate while the car is in reverse.


I really feel I should just leave this thread alone at this point, but I can't. So who and how and why did someone try to over ride the camera and successfully do so while backing up? Was the car moving when you did so? Do you mess with other functions of the car when backing up and not use the mirrors and looking around over your shoulders? You do know you can get the camera back with a press of another "button" or as noted by putting the car in park and then reverse again. You do know that it is just another aid and should never be used as the primary deciding factor whether it is safe to back up or not. If so, I'm afraid our fore fathers should have never been allowed to drive without their backup camera. I'm guessing this is why we have warnings on everything these days. There is no more common sense. I'm OK if Tesla were to add this "safety" mechanism, but it isn't a bug. Maybe we disagree on what you call it, but it isn't a bug. You just wish it wouldn't be allowed to happen.


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## SoFlaModel3 (Apr 15, 2017)

SPIKE's M3AWD said:


> *This is a software bug. * The Media Player overrides the Rear View camera. It is does not happen when you touch the Climate Control icon. It does not happen when you touch the Control icon, Volume Control or any other icon.
> 
> *This is a safety issue. * All new cars sold in the USA must have a functional backup camera. Nothing should be able to obscure the Rear View camera. None of those icons should activate while the car is in reverse.


Probably semantics but the NHTSA mandates that as of May 2018 all vehicles under 10,000 pounds require an RVS (rearview video system) or backup camera. The mandate does not suggest that a driver is not allowed to override the view though. Again semantics and gray area. The intent is safety and the intent is for the driver to have the view. Tesla provides that.


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## Dr. J (Sep 1, 2017)

SoFlaModel3 said:


> Not to jump on the bandwagon here, but I don't see this as a bug or an issue. If the driver makes the conscious choice to alter the display while backing up *the end result is what they hoped would happen in reality*.


So you're saying the Model 3 is a wish fulfillment device? I can't wait....


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## slacker775 (May 30, 2018)

I’ve experienced this same quirk. In my case, I’ve always shifted into reverse but was still holding, changed a song or something and the rear view went away. I just hit the button to give me rear view and turned it off once I started driving. Maybe it shouldn’t happen at all, but at worst it’s a minor nuisance. If somebody had this happen, was only able to use the rear view and didn’t know how to turn it on manually, they probably shouldn’t be driving the vehicle in the first place. Nothing more to see here folks.


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## SPIKE's M3AWD (May 26, 2017)

GDN said:


> I really feel I should just leave this thread alone at this point, but I can't. So who and how and why did someone try to over ride the camera and successfully do so while backing up? Was the car moving when you did so? Do you mess with other functions of the car when backing up and not use the mirrors and looking around over your shoulders? You do know you can get the camera back with a press of another "button" or as noted by putting the car in park and then reverse again. You do know that it is just another aid and should never be used as the primary deciding factor whether it is safe to back up or not. I'm OK if Tesla were to add this "safety" mechanism, but it isn't a bug. Maybe we disagree on what you call it, but it isn't a bug. You just wish it wouldn't be allowed to happen.


The car was not moving. I was in my driveway testing out the functions on my new car. And I mentioned in the original post how to get the camera back.
This happens regardless if the car is in Park, Drive or Reverse
If you drive a Tesla please be aware of this issue, bug, feature or what ever else you feel comfortable caling it.


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## webdriverguy (May 25, 2017)

SPIKE's M3AWD said:


> *This is a software bug. * The Media Player overrides the Rear View camera. It is does not happen when you touch the Climate Control icon. It does not happen when you touch the Control icon, Volume Control or any other icon.
> 
> *This is a safety issue. * All new cars sold in the USA must have a functional backup camera. Nothing should be able to obscure the Rear View camera. None of those icons should activate while the car is in reverse.


I agree with you. Should be a simple fix for them to have the media player icon greyed out when you backup.


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## PNWmisty (Aug 19, 2017)

When I put any car in Reverse, I'm ready to back up, I don't start selecting a new audio track. But, if I did, I would expect the audio software to work normally, even if I were in Reverse. At that point, it's easy to touch the camera lens icon to bring the rear view camera back before backing up. There is no need to flick the gear lever down and up again (although that's nearly as easy as touching the camera icon).

Should we outlaw all pre-2018 cars that don't even have a back-up camera?


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## webdriverguy (May 25, 2017)

PNWmisty said:


> When I put any car in Reverse, I'm ready to back up, I don't start selecting a new audio track. But, if I did, I would expect the audio software to work normally, even if I were in Reverse. At that point, it's easy to touch the camera lens icon to bring the rear view camera back before backing up. There is no need to flick the gear lever down and up again (although that's nearly as easy as touching the camera icon).
> 
> Should we outlaw all pre-2018 cars that don't even have a back-up camera?


It's really inconvenient/ not safe when the passenger besides you taps the media player icon when you are backing up and the camera display goes away. Sure I have to be attentive all the time but this is something they can easily fix. If they can disable other icons when the car is in reverse they can pretty easily do this as well.


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## SoFlaModel3 (Apr 15, 2017)

webdriverguy00 said:


> It's really inconvenient/ not safe when the passenger besides you taps the media player icon when you are backing up and the camera display goes away. Sure I have to be attentive all the time but this is something they can easily fix. If they can disable other icons when the car is in reverse they can pretty easily do this as well.


Just to clarify though - none of the other icons are disabled. You can tap phone, music, HVAC, etc.

The glitch or bug is that when you tap music the backup camera goes away where as with the other icons they just open on top of the camera view.


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## webdriverguy (May 25, 2017)

SoFlaModel3 said:


> Just to clarify though - none of the other icons are disabled. You can tap phone, music, HVAC, etc.
> 
> The glitch or bug is that when you tap music the backup camera goes away where as with the other icons they just open on top of the camera view.


And even if you are using the camera and also looking over shoulder yourself, if the camera displays goes away anything can happen in a split second. Going to send email to tesla about this.


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## SoFlaModel3 (Apr 15, 2017)

webdriverguy00 said:


> And even if you are using the camera and also looking over shoulder yourself, if the camera displays goes away anything can happen in a split second. Going to send email to tesla about this.


I don't disagree that this is a bug, but I think we're making a mountain out of a molehill.

For instance getting rear cross traffic alerts when backing up would be infinitely more valuable from a safety perspective then the camera going away when you press the music icon.


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## garsh (Apr 4, 2016)

PNWmisty said:


> Should we outlaw all pre-2018 cars that don't even have a back-up camera?


Please refrain from "reductio ad absurdum" arguments. It's inconsiderate to other members. Discussing differences of opinion are ok, but this sort of behavior is not.

@SPIKE's M3AWD made a nice follow-on post describing why he believes this is a bug. I don't think it's a major safety issue as he originally put in the title, but it does sound like a simple bug that would be easy to fix. And it's probably in Tesla's best interest to fix it.


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## Dr. J (Sep 1, 2017)

garsh said:


> Please refrain from "reductio ad absurdum" arguments


"Sed finis est ut alios monent latine."
--Caveat Emptor of Herculaneum


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## SPIKE's M3AWD (May 26, 2017)

SoFlaModel3 said:


> I don't disagree that this is a bug, but I think we're making a mountain out of a molehill.
> 
> For instance getting rear cross traffic alerts when backing up would be infinitely more valuable from a safety perspective then the camera going away when you press the music icon.


Yes I agree there are bigger safety issues.

Why doesn't the car auto brake when driving less than 5mph?
Why are there no cars yet with rear collision avoidance?


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## webdriverguy (May 25, 2017)

SPIKE's M3AWD said:


> Yes I agree there are bigger safety issues. Why doesn't the car auto brake when driving less than 5mph?
> Why are there no cars yet with rear collision avoidance?


May be we can put in a feature request for that?


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## garsh (Apr 4, 2016)

SPIKE's M3AWD said:


> Can I change the title of the post? I couldn't figure out how.


It appears that one of the moderators updated it for you.


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## GDN (Oct 30, 2017)

SPIKE's M3AWD said:


> Can I change the title of the post? I couldn't figure out how.


If you own the thread (you do this one) you can click the link on top of the thread to the right "Thread tools" and it will let you edit the title.


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## SPIKE's M3AWD (May 26, 2017)

Dr. J said:


> So you're saying the Model 3 is a wish fulfillment device? I can't wait....


Indeed making wishes come true is exactly what happens every time Tesla pushes a software update.
Elon will need to borrow a lot of magical elves from Santa to keep all his new M3 owners happy!


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## iollmann (Oct 17, 2018)

GDN said:


> I want to know who messes with the radio while backing up? . There is an icon/button to the left that should bring the camera back.


This can also happen in the following scenario:

1) Press scroll wheel on right side of steering wheel (model 3) and say "Navigate to work"
2) Put the car in reverse and start backing down the driveway.

When the navigation figures out where it is going, it will spontaneously disable the rear view camera and show the navigation instead, blinding the driver. This problem is pretty insidious. It takes my brain far longer than it should to register that I am looking at a blank screen and not what is behind me.

It also can happen per original report when your highly absent minded passenger (non-driving teenage son) starts trying to turn on music while you are backing up.

This should be a high priority safety fix before a pedestrian gets clobbered by someone backing out of their driveway, or my son is seriously injured by my hat. It was present in OS 8 and is still there in OS 9.

[Edit: I filed a full software engineering quality bug report to [email protected] on this issue. "Bug Report: [Safety Critical] UI can blind driver while in reverse" Hopefully, someone at Tesla will shepherd it where it needs to go before the lawsuits start. Tesla needs a real bug reporting database. Note: the right fix isn't to disable the other controls, but to make the camera view modal, ordered front, so that nothing can be drawn on top of it. It is fine if the music or whatever wants to be layered underneath, to become visible when the car is put back in drive. There should probably also be a helpful alert when the car is in this mode and the user starts playing with UI controls to explain why they are not getting the UI feedback they expect, not unlike the help about closing the console storage panels -- "Close gently". ]


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## SR22pilot (Aug 16, 2018)

I'm with the person who said to touch the backup camera icon and turn it on again.


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## JWardell (May 9, 2016)

I have to agree here, this surprisingly happened to me twice this week since 39.7, and never before. I was confused for a bit then had to scramble to bring up the camera again.
It's tough to recall what exactly happened, but most likely backing out of space, put in reverse with foot on brake, wait why isn't music playing or need to reload slacker song, or maybe adjust volume, OK let's go...hey where's my camera?
Yes, the sequence would be better shifting into reverse later, but this is still an issue, the camera should never auto-hide itself when shifted into reverse.


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## iollmann (Oct 17, 2018)

Since Tesla still doesn't believe its software platform deserves a bug reporting database, for safety issues like this you can contact the office of the NHTSA Defect Investigation Team:

U.S. Department of Transportation 
National Highway Traffic Safety Administration 
Office of Defects Investigation (NVS-210)
1200 New Jersey Ave, SE
West Building
Washington, DC 20590

I sent them a complaint in writing. If the problem is that the 2018 NHTSA requirement for a backup camera is not clearly drafted enough, perhaps they will remedy that problem too.


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## Bokonon (Apr 13, 2017)

iollmann said:


> Since Tesla still doesn't believe its software platform deserves a bug reporting database, for safety issues like this you can contact the office of the NHTSA Defect Investigation Team


@iollmann, I'm guessing you work in QA, because you seem to have a pretty good understanding of what goes into a quality, actionable bug report. 

A couple of thoughts on this point, though:

1. I don't work for Tesla, but I'm 99.9% sure they use some kind of a bug-tracking database for all of their software projects, including vehicle firmware. Additionally, when you submit a bug report through the car's voice-recognition system (by long-pressing the right scroll wheel and saying, "bug report" followed by a description of the issue), I'm pretty confident that a human reviewer can and will attach your report to a new or existing issue in that same database, as appropriate.

2. I'd venture to guess that, by the time someone at NHTSA decides to take action on your complaint (if indeed they choose to do so), Tesla will have already fixed the issue in a newer firmware release. As you and others here have pointed out, this bug adversely impacts safety of operation, and will likely receive the highest priority in Tesla's bug-tracking system. So, I think the quickest way to actually get it fixed is to report it directly to Tesla, rather than trying to work through a government agency.

TL;DR -- Anytime your backup cam disappears while in reverse, immediately file a bug report from within the car. Since the bug reports contain a snapshot of the car's current state, it's the best and fastest way to get Tesla's engineers everything they need to track it down and fix it.


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## Bernard (Aug 3, 2017)

SoFlaModel3 said:


> Just to clarify though - none of the other icons are disabled. You can tap phone, music, HVAC, etc.
> 
> The glitch or bug is that when you tap music the backup camera goes away where as with the other icons they just open on top of the camera view.


Right, the issue is not safety, legality, driving style, or passenger discipline, but just consistency in the interface. So it is a bug -- a very minor one, but a bug nevertheless.


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## iollmann (Oct 17, 2018)

Bokonon said:


> @iollmann, I'm guessing you work in QA, because you seem to have a pretty good understanding of what goes into a quality, actionable bug report.
> 
> A couple of thoughts on this point, though:
> 
> ...


I have no doubt that they have an internal bug database. What is missing is an externally facing bug portal that experienced people can file bugs on.
I don't work in QA, but every engineer should be doing his own QA at least to some extent.

The bug was in OS 8 and persists in OS 9. The thread has been going on for a while. They have had time to fix it. If managers can't be convinced something is important by ordinary customer complaint, a regulatory / conformance hammer usually works. The problem might also be with the regulatory requirements, which might have to be fixed before the car can do the right thing. Either is a good reason for NHTSA to be involved. Whether they are slow is immaterial.

I didn't file a bug report using the voice log system because I didn't think I could capture accurately what needed to be said about it in a 15 second sound byte, nor did I want to leave it up to the vagueries of voice recognition. I've been on the receiving end of plenty of bug reports that are one line and carelessly tossed off, leaving me wondering what exactly the problem was. A good bug report should include steps to reproduce the problem, a clear statement of the problem, the expected behavior and actual behavior, etc. There should be logs if possible. I'll happily agree that my approach was missing logs. However, I think in this case as it is quite clearly easily reproduced and is occurring by design and not due to some infrequent software defect, so the logs if even needed can be generated by the engineer tasked with the fix on his on dev device.

All that said, I recommend everyone complain either through the voice bug thingy, calling support, contacting the NHTSA, whatever. This isn't safe. Bug reports are a bit like votes. If one doesn't get the attention it deserves, hundreds of duplicates might.

...or one NHTSA hammer -- I'm pretty sure Tesla values those 5 stars.

Taking the time to report a problem shows you actually care, and are not just whining to make noise or curry favor. As one cynical saying goes at my workplace, "If it isn't in [the bug database], it didn't happen."


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## JWardell (May 9, 2016)

So this just happened to me a third time tonight! And I now understand what is going on:

Put in reverse to back out of space
Realize no music is playing because of slacker loading error
Hit audio controls and reload to start music
Now take foot of brake and start to reverse and realize there is no camera.

So it is possible this occurred before, but I never had audio loading issues before 39.7

I'm not reporting this as a bug because it's clear Tesla already pulled 39.7 due to its issues. I will report if it is still there in the next version.


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## babula (Aug 26, 2018)

From what I know this is more of a feature rather than a bug and something that was reported early on.

If your cam disappears after touching something else and trying to go in reverse, simply click on the rear view cam icon again to turn it on.

Personally I agree with a few others on this thread, you should be focused on reversing instead of playing with other controls.


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## woodisgood (Jul 26, 2018)

We use other controls every time we are reversing out of the garage (to unfold the mirrors). Used to be we could just bring up the quick controls, unfold, and tap the car to get back to cam. Now that third press has to be a little more precise (and is more complicated if the efficiency card is displayed instead of cam/charge/voice). Since we do this daily while backing out of a driveway where there are lots of pedestrians, I can tell you it’s actually a pretty big deal.


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## iollmann (Oct 17, 2018)

FWIW, the federal vehicle code regs say the following for passenger cars:

S5.5.5 Deactivation. The rearview image meeting the requirements of S5.5.1 and S5.5.2 shall remain visible during the backing event until either, the drivermodifies the view, or the vehicle direction selector is removed from the reverse position. 
S5.5.6 Default view. The rear visibility system must default to the rearview image meeting the requirements of S5.5.1 and S5.5.2 at the beginning of each backing event regardless of any modifications to the field of view the driver has previously selected.

I personally feel that in my case, having the navigation command issued before the backup event defeat the camera after backup is initiated seems to run afoul of S5.5.6. This is not driver modification of the view and so is disallowed by 5.5.5. If it was, then 5.5.6 disallows it because the driver command to adjust the view occurs before the backup event.

S5.5.5 allows the driver to dispel the view after the backup event starts, so those of you who want to fiddle with the view while driving backwards are safe with the current wording. Pedantically, a non driver would not seem to be included (e.g. my son) though I can hardly expect most cars to understand who is operating the controls.


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## SPIKE's M3AWD (May 26, 2017)

On V9 40.1 and still no fix. Now the rear view camera disappears when ANY other function is selected. 

This is bad if you want the rear view camera active while driving forward.


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