# Tesla killer article



## bwilson4web

Source: https://www.cnbc.com/2020/02/21/tesla-killers-arent-killing-tesla-at-all.html

_The success of both Tesla cars, and Tesla shares, have baffled many in the automotive industry, who point to the company's small size; precarious financial history; and repeated struggles with manufacturing delays; and customer complaints about long waits for orders and difficulty obtaining parts and service._​_. . ._​_But relatively few buyers in the United States seem interested in battery electrics, and industry watchers think many buyers are early adopters buying Teslas out of an interest in the brand or an interest in cutting edge technology, rather than out of an interest in owning an electric car._​
This last comment got me wondering. How many of us are "interested" versus "committed?" So I added a poll.

Bob Wilson


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## DanSz

That article was ten sentences. Just a series of statements with absolutely nothing of any content or conclusions.

I believe many Tesla owners come for the hype and _stay_ for the performance.


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## JasonF

I live in suburban Orlando and the Model 3 is my only car. I had to stretch the budget a bit to get it, which is why I chose more range (and an earlier delivery) over extras like Autopilot or FSD. I drive it to work, around town for fun. I'm happy that I don't pay for gas, and that the only "maintenance" I had to budget for so far was new tires (the OEM Michelins were _really_ soft). It's been 100% reliable in the year and a half+ I've had it. I would have to say so far it's been at least as good as the Mitsubishi I had before it, reliability and service-wise. Yes, Mitsubishi has some service department issues as well.

I guess I could say I might be the very market Tesla's ultimate vision aimed for. EV's for the masses, ones that average people can buy and own, and not have to compromise, struggle to operate it, or own another vehicle to fill in the gaps.


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## bwilson4web

DanSz said:


> That article was ten sentences. Just a series of statements with absolutely nothing of any content or conclusions.


It agrees with my hypothesis that "analysts" and Tesla skeptics are abysmally ignorant about Tesla cars. Worse, they pass their misinformation around as if it is gospel and their accounting methods are not much better. So this article reflected a condensed version of what the Tesla SHORTs are all to willing to claim.

Now as to resistance to new technology, initially the specifications for both cars and charging networks did not meet my requirements. A used, BMW i3-REx was affordable and fully met my cross country needs. It was also how I learned the weakness and high costs of CCS-1 and L2 charging. So when we did trade-in our Prius Prime, I knew how to reliably take long distance trips.

Bob Wilson


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## Dr. J

The only other car I can envision buying is another Tesla. My prior cars were utilitarian, the last one a 13-year-old (bought new) Prius. The Model 3 is a deluxe, alien-technology spaceship in comparison. I suppose if some other company can out-do Tesla, I'll consider it. I just haven't seen it. 

About that pie....


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## JasonF

Dr. J said:


> The Model 3 is a deluxe, alien-technology spaceship in comparison. I suppose if some other company can out-do Tesla, I'll consider it. I just haven't seen it.


I believe that's because of "focus groups", something obviously Tesla doesn't use at all (if you've seen the Cybertruck reaction). Most auto makers run their new models past focus groups, which just happen to be made of people who have extra time on their hands - usually older people who are retired, and are afraid of change. The end result is most concepts end up muted and made much more conservative and familiar to the previous models as possible.

Many of the Japanese manufacturers suffer from focus-group-itis in the U.S. more than any American manufacturers do. They have some really interesting models in Japan that they never bring to the U.S. because their American focus groups tell them that Americans won't buy it.

Case in point: The 2006 Mitsubishi Eclipse. I had one, and the design is actually pretty similar to the Model 3's. The original concept model was much more wild looking, and it had a dual-motor electric drive combined with a small turbodiesel engine. It ended up with a standard Mitsubishi 2.0 gasoline engine instead. Why? Because focus groups told them gas is cheap, and Americans wouldn't buy a hybrid or a diesel. Pretty soon after (2007-2008) the gas prices went through the roof. If Mitsubishi only had the courage Tesla does now, they might have had the world's #2 hybrid model behind the Prius. Now they're struggling to hang on to the U.S. market instead.

By the way, they finally dug that hybrid powertrain out of mothballs, 12 years later, for the Outlander PHEV, except without the diesel.


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## msjulie

JasonF said:


> usually older people who are retired, and are afraid of change.


This might be a bit strong, I know of fair number of older folks quite interested and hopeful for positive change.


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## pjfw8

msjulie said:


> This might be a bit strong, I know of fair number of older folks quite interested and hopeful for positive change.


As an old white guy, I run into many younger, fearful people. True that some old folks are "set in their ways". Others are free of obligations and now donate their time and resources to help others in need and advocate for a sustainable future.


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## JasonF

msjulie said:


> This might be a bit strong, I know of fair number of older folks quite interested and hopeful for positive change.


I should have been clearer: I'm not saying all older people are fearful, I'm saying older people tend to volunteer for the groups, and more fearful people tend to volunteer for the groups. It's an overlap of two different things.

What's kind of funny about it is that focus groups are supposed to represent the target demographic of new vehicles, but those people have jobs and generally don't want to volunteer their time for a private company.


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## Gunn

bwilson4web said:


> _But relatively few buyers in the United States seem interested in battery electrics, and industry watchers think many buyers are early adopters buying Teslas out of an interest in the brand or an interest in cutting edge technology, rather than out of an interest in owning an electric car..._


Not true in my case, I wanted an electric car and test drove all that were available at the time (yes, even the E-Golf and Bolt and even sat in the Leaf 2.0). None of them worked for me and the other half wanted a Mirai (gasp! no..). Once the 3 was available in stores to sit in I was sold, the "_cutting edge technology"_ is a bonus and it wasn't until I had my own 3 that I started investing in Tesla. I know I should have done it years ago but the 3 was on the wrong end of the price scale, I knew it was obtainable and worked hard for 3 years to get enough $$ so it didn't break the bank.


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## MarkB

Other car is a Lexus hybrid. Paid for & low KM's. if comes time to replace it, *and* we still need 2 vehicles, replacement *will* be BEV. (Make / model TBD, depending on what's available at the time).

But "second vehicle" requirements will be different than the "primary vehicle" (ie. Supercharge network isn't as critical for second vehicle as it won't be a road trip car. Range? Again, not as vital being a second car.).

Definitely biases towards Tesla. As "only vehicle" it's really the only option, IMHO. But almost any BEV would be great as the 2nd (or 3rd) vehicle in most households - and in my observation, in those households, the EV usually gets taken first (especially in households where the kids are expected to pay for fuel used!)


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## AmokTime

We had a 10 year-old Camry V6 that we traded in for an M3SR+ in 2019. Lived with it for about 9 months through a (admittedly mild) winter to see how it did in cold weather. We were pleased with it and traded in an 8 year-old Prius for a 2020 M3SR+ In early March. So I guess we're committed.

I'm considered an "older" person, though not yet elderly. I am a fan of technology and change for the better (I'm an engineer working in the software industry). My wife actually bought the first M3 without telling me, then broke the news to me after leading me by the nose through her justification of why a M3 would be a good car to buy. I ran the numbers and looked at the pros & cons for a day. "Ok, it's feasible, let's buy one," I concluded. "[sheepishly]I kind of already did..." she replied.

My dad, who is definitely elderly, a retired engineer, and tech fan, wanted to get a M3, but his wife does not like the screen in the middle - she wants a traditional instrument cluster, but he won't spend Model S money on a car - he says that, though he could afford it, spending that much on a car is obscene. I kind of agree with him. They looked at a Kona after that, but limited leg room makes the back seats unusable.

It seems pointless to consider other brands of EV right now unless you're ready to spend $150K - $180K on a Taycan. Tesla is the benchmark, and most mass-market offerings by others are not as good and are priced fairly close to to the M3SR+. Bolt, for example. Before the latest cash allowances ($8500 now), it was something like $1500 less than the M3SR+. Why would anyone in their right mind buy a Chevy Bolt when, for only $1500 more you could have a Tesla? The Kona is similarly positioned, though a much nicer ride. Leaf is in the same boat. Right now, other brands just serve as confirmations of how far ahead Tesla is. I like this kind of market disruption.


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## SR22pilot

Steve Jobs famously hated focus groups. All they tell you is what people have been programmed to want. An example is the display in front of the steering wheel. I no longer miss it. Remember that focus groups said the Mustang would be a failure.

People see Tesla as a BEV company. When it comes to automobiles they are about rethinking the automobile in its entirety. Watch Steve Job’s introduction of the iPhone and his explanation of what was wrong with the Palm Trio, Motorola Q, and Blackberry.


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## gary in NY

There is growing evidence that this label should be turned around, and that Tesla is killing traditional auto makers. It's depressingly clear that many of them, despite their claims, have a weak commitment to electrification. Even weaker after this week's EPA changes. Will we be bailing them out (again) in a few years? Time will tell.

As a more senior individual, I had no second thoughts about going BEV, and can't relate to peoples' dislike of such things as the center screen (after 10 minutes it becomes second nature). The only thing I find amusing about it and the M3 other driving functions is when I switch between the M3 and my Tacoma, I'm looking in the wrong spot for things, reaching for leavers that are not there, waiting for regen braking to kick in, etc. Come on Cybertruck!


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## Lchamp

msjulie said:


> This might be a bit strong, I know of fair number of older folks quite interested and hopeful for positive change.


Yeah, that caused a bit of a chuckle here. I'll be 80 next year and I own a Model 3 and have a reservation on the Cybertruck while I dream of getting a Model X later this year. I DO help my elders with their computers when they ask.


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## Needsdecaf

I just purchased a Model 3 to replace my totaled 2018 LRAWD. I did it because I really enjoy the Tesla driving experience, and the way the tech is integrated into the car. Tesla has made a very good driver's car, IMO. 

Had the Mustang Mach-E or the Polestar 2 been out, especially the Polestar, results may have been very different. The Tesla has some significant flaws, IMO, at it's price point. But to me, the driving experience has overcome them. When I need to replace it, though, I suspect my choice might be different. Or maybe not.


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## JasonF

Needsdecaf said:


> I just purchased a Model 3 to replace my totaled 2018 LRAWD.


Since I've (thankfully) never totalled a car before, I'm curious: How does that experience work out? Does insurance tend to give you a reasonable enough amount to replace it, or do a lot of people tend to get stuck with an even bigger finance loan for the replacement?

I ask because a lot of non-Teslas drop so far in value the moment you drive them off the lot, often people end up having exactly that happen - pay off about half the original finance loan with the insurance check, and then have to try and qualify for new financing while still being saddled with the old loan. I've heard that even dealer-supplied "gap insurance" takes so long to file a claim with, it ends up having little effect on making it easier to buy another car.


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## Needsdecaf

JasonF said:


> Since I've (thankfully) never totalled a car before, I'm curious: How does that experience work out? Does insurance tend to give you a reasonable enough amount to replace it, or do a lot of people tend to get stuck with an even bigger finance loan for the replacement?
> 
> I ask because a lot of non-Teslas drop so far in value the moment you drive them off the lot, often people end up having exactly that happen - pay off about half the original finance loan with the insurance check, and then have to try and qualify for new financing while still being saddled with the old loan. I've heard that even dealer-supplied "gap insurance" takes so long to file a claim with, it ends up having little effect on making it easier to buy another car.


I'll start a new thread about the car's untimely demise and talk a little more about this. Thanks for asking!


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## Chestnut Mare

I've been driving my S85D for 5 years, and 138,000 KM. I'm a retired guy. I do have another vehicle, an F250 Ford, to use with my fifth wheel horse trailer (don't let my avatar fool you). The Cybertruk won't be an option for this. My next vehicle was going to be an X or Y.....but for the first time I was disappointed by Tesla, when they throttled my Supercharging. Long trips are *painful*, now that it's a 60-70 minute charge vs 20-25. We now take my wife's Mazda......
Around town - I only drive my S, and it still drives like a new car.

I'm unhappy about taking an ice car, but adding 90 minutes or so to a trip to Montreal from home is just not acceptable

I'm still sold on BEV, or Plug-in hybrid, but my next car purchase, probably 2021 or 2022 - I'm going to seriously look at Audi, Volvo, and others. Tesla could be the "Tesla killer"


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## JasonF

I get the feeling that part of Tesla’s growing pains going forward is going to be their slow realization that their new “mass market” customers are fully willing to keep their cars for 10+ years if you keep giving them reasons not to upgrade** - as opposed to their previous more affluent customers who are more willing to upgrade on their own every few years.

So what will undoubtedly happen eventually is they’ll start taking away things from older cars that we currently take for granted. Premium connectivity might end for older models, or supercharging. Eventually, they might even put a limit on the oldest cars allowed to get over the air updates.

As Tesla takes on a more mainstream customer base, they’re going to have to start acting more like a mainstream auto manufacturer - by limiting access to things and gently encouraging customers to upgrade.

Is that going to hurt my impression of them in the future? There is no way to tell that now. It depends what their EV competition is offering.

** This is especially a problem if Tesla plans on having a self-driving fleet someday. They need people to trade in relatively new cars.


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## P&J

So another fearful 74 year old, Model 3, now a Y, traded a Vette for the 3 Old Folks Bah humbug. We love the tech and the low CG and the Torque.. and we get to be entertained with new updates. Just not buying that Boomers are not interested.


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## Dasher

Another aspect relevant to this discussion is 'simplicity’. As I have matured, many things have got more complicated (I call it creeping complexity). The automobile industry has been a notable exception to this, and many things that I used to do (check points, pull choke out etc.) got relegated to history, for which I was very grateful. Electric cars take this trend even further, but I would argue that Tesla has grasped this more than most. Day to day driving in a Tesla is about as simple as it could get, and as FSD develops will go even further. i don't think that other EV manufacturers have grasped this.


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