# Munro showing daily Model Y teardown



## bwilson4web

This is truly worth watching not only for Model Y owner but also Model 3 owners who share many of the same parts.

https://munrolive.com

Bob Wilson

ps. I've not diagnosed it but often my Safari bookmark fails on the first attempt. Doing a page refresh brings it up.


----------



## TrevP

I've watched the videos but I thought it was supposed to be a true "live" teardown?


----------



## Klaus-rf

TrevP said:


> I've watched the videos but I thought it was supposed to be a true "live" teardown?


 It's almost live the first time you watch it.


----------



## garsh

TrevP said:


> I've watched the videos but I thought it was supposed to be a true "live" teardown?


I think the current videos are preliminary things.
Then they're planning to livestream the main teardown of the body and battery on Saturday morning, IIUC.


----------



## bwilson4web

Actually there is a daily update. I don't know the schedule but would suggest checking in the morning.

Bob Wilson


----------



## JWardell

Interesting that the underbody wiring is better protected. He didn't say but I assume there is still an aero shield which was removed? I wonder if they had issues, or they really are prepping the Y to do more off roading.


----------



## garsh

JWardell said:


> He didn't say but I assume there is still an aero shield which was removed?


I think he said that they removed it at the very beginning of the video.


----------



## crmatson

JWardell said:


> Interesting that the underbody wiring is better protected. He didn't say but I assume there is still an aero shield which was removed? I wonder if they had issues, or they really are prepping the Y to do more off roading.


I assume these protected wire harnesses might also be more robust for storing, shipping and installation.


----------



## JWardell

Not sure why Monroe thinks a rotor retaining screw is a novel idea. It is on the Model 3 and on my old BMW cars as well. Most aftermarket wheels have space for it. I do sometime question if he knows as much as people think


----------



## Needsdecaf

JWardell said:


> Not sure why Monroe thinks a rotor retaining screw is a novel idea. It is on the Model 3 and on my old BMW cars as well. Most aftermarket wheels have space for it. I do sometime question if he knows as much as people think


Yeah, I'm a little nonplussed by these videos.

He kept calling them "Bem-Bro" brakes. I mean, come on. Who in the automotive field doesn't know they are "Brem-bo"? Ok, I'll give him a pass on that. But as far as that wiring protection goes? Umm, I've seen it on pretty much every car that I've taken apart since 2007. Doesn't seem very special to me.....


----------



## msjulie

JWardell said:


> Not sure why Monroe thinks a rotor retaining screw is a novel idea. It is on the Model 3 and on my old BMW cars as well. Most aftermarket wheels have space for it. I do sometime question if he knows as much as people think


Agree my 19 OEM rims have that same retaining screw and the wheel has the space for it - not sure why it would be forgotten from the 3 unless the really early one they tore down had a threaded stud pin vs this bolt?


----------



## SR22pilot

JWardell said:


> Not sure why Monroe thinks a rotor retaining screw is a novel idea. It is on the Model 3 and on my old BMW cars as well. Most aftermarket wheels have space for it. I do sometime question if he knows as much as people think


In one video he says the car is the AWD and not the Performance. However, red calipers and carbon fiber spoiler indicate it is a Performance Model or did I miss something?


----------



## pjfw8

SR22pilot said:


> In one video he says the car is the AWD and not the Performance. However, red calipers and carbon fiber spoiler indicate it is a Performance Model or did I miss something?


He clarified that in another video.


----------



## Needsdecaf

JWardell said:


> Not sure why Monroe thinks a rotor retaining screw is a novel idea. It is on the Model 3 and on my old BMW cars as well. Most aftermarket wheels have space for it. I do sometime question if he knows as much as people think
> ]


Watched this again and he was impressed that the screw head was external, which I can appreciate. Most I have seen are countersunk into the rotor and they are Phillips head. Very easy to strip and require drilling out. External hex head should make it easier to get out without trouble.


----------



## garsh

Needsdecaf said:


> Watched this again and he was impressed that the screw head was external, which I can appreciate.


Sure, but the Model 3 had this too.
Either he forgot, or the really early Model 3s like the one he had did not.


----------



## Klaus-rf

Needsdecaf said:


> Watched this again and he was impressed that the screw head was external, which I can appreciate. Most I have seen are countersunk into the rotor and they are Phillips head. Very easy to strip and require drilling out. External hex head should make it easier to get out without trouble.


 If the proper tool(s) is/are used, there are no issues with these fasteners. BTW - most of what we think of as large Philips (#3+) screws are actually Posi-Drive. Using the correct tool is important.


----------



## CoastalCruiser

JWardell said:


> I do sometime question if he knows as much as people think


He has been "mis-speaking" terms, it you will, ever since the first Model 3 video he published. I don't know if it is possibly age, or that his mind just misfires sometimes, but I'm convinced he really does know a lot, he just has a deficiency in articulating it. In a way I admire him for doing these videos because he certainly must be aware of this defect, yet he is generous enough to step up anyway and share this information.

----------------------------------------------
The most interesting video yet (to me) just got published. Sandy gives us a run down on the motors. Unfortunately, and possibly due in part to his speech defect, the video raises as many questions as it answers....

He describes the Model Y induction and reluctance motors as "very similar" to the Model 3. So from an external view (at this point), _very similar_? What does that mean? He did not point out any visual differences so I am wondering if "very similar" may mean "it's probably the same motor". ??

And to the best of my knowledge we have never gotten a clear answer as to whether the induction motor in the Model 3 is the same as the smaller induction motor in the Model S. (Has anyone seen anything on that?) What was interesting is the point about how Tesla uses a *machined* core for the rotor, as opposed to other manufacturers using a cast core. When you consider that Tesla also uses copper in lieu of aluminum for the rotor itself (for greater conductivity) it is clear why Tesla had a desire to develop a lower cost PM motor for the Model 3.

Another question arises when the gearbox oil filter was discussed. Sandy asserted that the lubricant is not transmission fluid. Yet the Model S gearboxes use tranny fluid, and I've always assumed the same for the Model 3. It would be interesting to see some clarification here. The Model 3 manual is not much help in this regard.

Also, Sandy even seemed _reluctant_ to verify that the Model 3/Y PM motor used a reluctance design. Yet Elon long ago confirmed in a tweet that it does. And although this might just be a Munro brain fart, if you look at the board with the breakdown of the Model 3, the Powertrain is labeled as "Unknown As Of Yet". I wonder how old that diagram is?


----------



## msjulie

Interesting because in one of those autoline things, Sandy was showing off those magnets I thought and how cool there were.


----------



## garsh

CoastalCruiser said:


> He describes the Model Y induction and reluctance motors as "very similar" to the Model 3. So from an external view (at this point), _very similar_? What does that mean? He did not point out any visual differences so I am wondering if "very similar" may mean "it's probably the same motor". ??


That's how I interpreted it. It's most likely identical, but he wants to wait until they pull it apart to actually verify if it's the same or slightly updated.


> And to the best of my knowledge we have never gotten a clear answer as to whether the induction motor in the Model 3 is the same as the smaller induction motor in the Model S. (Has anyone seen anything on that?)


That's a good question.
In the first image below, we see a Model S non-performance drivetrain with the motors highlighted in red.
Below that is a Model 3 drivetrain, with the motors+gearboxes highlighted in red.
It does look like the motor portion may be similar between the two. It would be interesting to find out if they're the same.

Model S non-performance drivetrain:








Model 3 drivetrain:


----------



## JWardell

CoastalCruiser said:


> He has been "mis-speaking" terms, it you will, ever since the first Model 3 video he published. I don't know if it is possibly age, or that his mind just misfires sometimes, but I'm convinced he really does know a lot, he just has a deficiency in articulating it. In a way I admire him for doing these videos because he certainly must be aware of this defect, yet he is generous enough to step up anyway and share this information.
> 
> ----------------------------------------------
> The most interesting video yet (to me) just got published. Sandy gives us a run down on the motors. Unfortunately, and possibly due in part to his speech defect, the video raises as many questions as it answers....
> 
> He describes the Model Y induction and reluctance motors as "very similar" to the Model 3. So from an external view (at this point), _very similar_? What does that mean? He did not point out any visual differences so I am wondering if "very similar" may mean "it's probably the same motor". ??
> 
> And to the best of my knowledge we have never gotten a clear answer as to whether the induction motor in the Model 3 is the same as the smaller induction motor in the Model S. (Has anyone seen anything on that?) What was interesting is the point about how Tesla uses a *machined* core for the rotor, as opposed to other manufacturers using a cast core. When you consider that Tesla also uses copper in lieu of aluminum for the rotor itself (for greater conductivity) it is clear why Tesla had a desire to develop a lower cost PM motor for the Model 3.
> 
> Another question arises when the gearbox oil filter was discussed. Sandy asserted that the lubricant is not transmission fluid. Yet the Model S motors use tranny fluid, and I've always assumed the same for the Model 3. It would be interesting to see some clarification here.
> 
> Also, Sandy even seemed _reluctant_ to verify that the Model 3/Y PM motor used a reluctance design. Yet Elon long ago confirmed in a tweet that it does. And although this might just be a Munro brain fart, if you look at the board with the breakdown of the Model 3, the Powertrain is labeled as "Unknown As Of Yet". I wonder how old that diagram is?
> 
> View attachment 33339


I think today's video is excellent mainly because it compares the designs of so many different brands' motors, and also shows how Tesla's are designed to be be simpler, cheaper, and more powerful.
I expect the Model Y motors to be identical to Model 3.
I had the chance to put my hands on the Monrue teardown motors last yea, but this was a good walkthrough which I didn't have at the time.
To me, the most curious change so far is the charge port cables in pipes.


----------



## CoastalCruiser

JWardell said:


> To me, the most curious change so far is the charge port cables in pipes.


Definitely. I was wondering if I was hearing correctly. What do you think...is that "pipes" as in _hollow_ pipes? If I recall my basic electricity classes, current travels on the outside of a conductor. Has Tesla gone all First Principles on us with a lighter, cheaper way to route electricity in that area?

Or do you have it that the copper conductors are inside the pipe?

Your thoughts?


----------



## SR22pilot

CoastalCruiser said:


> Definitely. I was wondering if I was hearing correctly. What do you think...is that "pipes" as in _hollow_ pipes? If I recall my basic electricity classes, current travels on the outside of a conductor. Has Tesla gone all First Principles on us with a lighter, cheaper way to route electricity in that area?
> 
> Or do you have it that the copper conductors are inside the pipe?
> 
> Your thoughts?


I think it is just rigid conduit with the cables inside. It should make installation faster and is a first step towards automating that part of the process. Robots hate things that flop around. It should also offer better protection for the cables.


----------



## Needsdecaf

JWardell said:


> I think today's video is excellent mainly because it compares the designs of so many different brands' motors, and also shows how Tesla's are designed to be be simpler, cheaper, and more powerful.
> I expect the Model Y motors to be identical to Model 3.
> I had the chance to put my hands on the Monrue teardown motors last yea, but this was a good walkthrough which I didn't have at the time.
> To me, the most curious change so far is the charge port cables in pipes.


That is curious. My theory would be that there is an advantage of them being locked into one exact place during manufacturing as I can't see any advantage thereafter.


----------



## Needsdecaf

CoastalCruiser said:


> Definitely. I was wondering if I was hearing correctly. What do you think...is that "pipes" as in _hollow_ pipes? If I recall my basic electricity classes, current travels on the outside of a conductor. Has Tesla gone all First Principles on us with a lighter, cheaper way to route electricity in that area?
> 
> Or do you have it that the copper conductors are inside the pipe?
> 
> Your thoughts?


Definitely conduit with conductors inside. Do it all the time in commercial and industrial construction.


----------



## garsh

Needsdecaf said:


> My theory would be that there is an advantage of them being locked into one exact place during manufacturing


Robots are good at putting rigid conduits in place.
Robots are terrible at putting floppy cables and wires in place.


----------



## iChris93

CoastalCruiser said:


> If I recall my basic electricity classes, current travels on the outside of a conductor.


That is the skin effect which only applies to AC and is more of a problem as the frequency increases.


----------



## bwilson4web

Sandy is asking for financial support and I've already paid $50 for a question (not that I needed an answer.) Rather, I'm trying to figure out what financial model might work:

one time - Ok, I signed up for one question even if the $50 may be too small. I may ask another question if I can think of something 'in scope.'
patreon/subscription - there is a 'tax' from patreon so perhaps a direct PayPal or equivalent from viewers?
Tesla excellence award - to the degree that Sandy's suggestions are adopted, a direct or indirect support BUT this risks independence
buy the formal report - about 1/3d the full-time salary of one engineer, more like tipping the clerk (*).
In a perfect world, the Munro teardown would be the core of a series of technical, commercial ads for Tesla cars. Not the "looks fine runs a long time" crap that Detroit has overpaid for years. Rather a series of introduction to engineering ads that show the superior engineering of Tesla products.

Now if the Model Y technology can be (or is) being retrofitted to Shanghai Model 3 manufacturing lines, there could be a $5k price reduction or significant margin increase. Perhaps Gigafactory 3 is already accomplishing this transition.

Bob Wilson

* - Perhaps if Elon were to tweet that Tesla proprietary secrets are in the Munro report without details. Tweet something that might trigger SHORTs, Tesla skeptics, and the 'honorable' competition to buy full copies of the Munro report.


----------



## bwilson4web

It looks like the front suspension no longer has the tire overhang that limited the outside diameter of tires. Other Tesla models have an overhang that prevents installation of knobby tires.

Bob Wilson

ps. BTW, I like his brand of hand sanitizer in today's show . . . or was it 'product placement.'


----------



## iChris93

bwilson4web said:


> BTW, I like his brand of hand sanitizer in today's show . . . or was it 'product placement.'


%ABV is too low for hand sanitizer.


----------



## CoastalCruiser

Sandy Munro and Elon join the 3rd row crew to discuss Model Y tech. Elon is calling the heat pump and the rear "underbody casting" as the most notable changes from the Model 3.

*



*


----------



## Needsdecaf

Looks like some significant improvements for the Y's PM motor vs. the 3. More details coming soon...


----------



## bwilson4web

The larger, end rings of the new, Model Y, aluminum motor decreases the current density and reduces the total resistance of the slots in the laminates:








The large surface area improves heat dissipation without adding drag from "fan" blades. It also becomes a single casting instead of the machined copper of the Model 3 induction motor, lower cost.

Bob Wilson


----------



## JWardell

Needsdecaf said:


> Looks like some significant improvements for the Y's PM motor vs. the 3. More details coming soon...


I'm sure that motor is used in Model 3s as well. Please remember that Monroe tears apart cars as soon as they are available, and those early production cars don't have a number of improvements and changes that Tesla makes over time, in fact it seems obvious that Tesla finds solutions to issues while waiting for suppliers to make or fix parts.
For example, the hand cut plastic cable guide. Clearly the harness or the guide were made to the wrong measurement, but instead of throwing out the first thousand wrong parts and delaying launch by some more weeks, Tesla just got some intern to modify the wrong batch with a hacksaw.
Or the fact that Monro is comparing the Model Y headliner to the alcantera Model 3 headliner. We know they switched from alcantera after the first few months, and they could have switched to the new molded headliner then too.

In fact, I know of a dozen or so motor types that are identified on the CAN and new ones have appeared over time for the Model 3, so we already knew they were making improvements.


----------



## Needsdecaf

JWardell said:


> I'm sure that motor is used in Model 3s as well. Please remember that Monroe tears apart cars as soon as they are available, and those early production cars don't have a number of improvements and changes that Tesla makes over time, in fact it seems obvious that Tesla finds solutions to issues while waiting for suppliers to make or fix parts.
> For example, the hand cut plastic cable guide. Clearly the harness or the guide were made to the wrong measurement, but instead of throwing out the first thousand wrong parts and delaying launch by some more weeks, Tesla just got some intern to modify the wrong batch with a hacksaw.
> Or the fact that Monro is comparing the Model Y headliner to the alcantera Model 3 headliner. We know they switched from alcantera after the first few months, and they could have switched to the new molded headliner then too.
> 
> In fact, I know of a dozen or so motor types that are identified on the CAN and new ones have appeared over time for the Model 3, so we already knew they were making improvements.


True. Hard to tell when that improvement actually hit. It's not obvious like the headliner. Or seats.


----------



## bwilson4web

I appreciate skepticism but would help if these skeptics would buy or obtain scrap parts from more recent Model 3 and take them apart. Perhaps contact Rich Rebuilds and ask him to take apart more recent parts?

I've seen enough "PowerPoint" engineering and press releases to know the difference between speculation and a real part. Yet Elon Musk posted this:









I tend to agree with Elon Musk and Sandy Munro.

Bob Wilson

ps. More recent:


----------



## CoastalCruiser

Good points made here on the "new" motor. Probably everyone following this thread understands that Sandy was referencing the induction motor (front), not what he is calling the "PM" motor (rear), but making the point just in case.

From my limited understanding, the most significant reason to go from a copper based rotor to a cast aluminum rotor would have to be cost savings. But now the question is where did Tesla put the venerable secret sauce to get matching, or near matching power out of this design. If as Mr. Wardell points out, that Tesla likely slip-streamed this motor into the 3, with out raising eyebrows in terms of marked differences in performance, and while still fitting the rotor into the same case, then certainly the Greek team doing motor design has pulled yet another sweet slice of baklava out of their hats.


----------



## GDN

I have watched just a few of the videos that were posted up til mid last week. I don't really want to take anything from Sandy, but two things rub me the wrong way with him. He wants to take credit for most everything Tesla has improved on the Y over the 3, especially the welds and the rear crumple bumper, whatever they call it. That is item number 1, item number 2, if he is so good why isn't he still at Ford or some other big manufacturer making the world a better place and improving what he did years ago. Really all he is doing is tearing down vehicles, comparing, analyzing and deciding which is best then selling what he has compared the others have done. No big or new or innovative ideas of his own.

I'm OK if this isn't the way it really is, but sure seems a lot like it.


----------



## bwilson4web

Sandy Munro is not a Tesla employee but has an independent business:


GDN said:


> No big or new or innovative ideas of his own.


No problem as Munro's goal is to illuminate the technology and what was done right and could be done better. He left Ford because Dr. Deming suggested leaving was a better career path.

Bob Wilson


----------



## GDN

bwilson4web said:


> Sandy Munro is not a Tesla employee but has an independent business:
> 
> Bob Wilson


That is obvioius - otherwise he would be trying to innovate even more, not profit by tearing someone else's innovation apart and selling his documentation to others so he can gain from it.


----------



## Needsdecaf

GDN said:


> That is obvioius - otherwise he would be trying to innovate even more, not profit by tearing someone else's innovation apart and selling his documentation to others so he can gain from it.


You say that like this is a bad thing. I don't see anything wrong with reverse engineering.


----------



## CoastalCruiser

GDN said:


> That is obvioius - otherwise he would be trying to innovate even more, not profit by tearing someone else's innovation apart and selling his documentation to others so he can gain from it.


Well it's a dirty job, but someone's got to do it.

I can understand your point of view on Munro, but Musk seems to think he is ok. It is Sandy that early on pointed out the needless complexity of the rear under body. Recall that Elon reacted to the criticism by stating "I fired that guy", referring to the engineer that designed that subsystem. There was some criticism of Munro at the time that Tesla had done the body that way for safety, but it turns out that the design could be greatly reduced in complexity and still presumably be as safe. Sandy also critiqued the welds early on. So it seems the victory lap he took was within reason. What I've heard mostly coming from Munro during this Y tear down is praise for the Tesla design. And Musk has acknowledged Munro for being accurate on both the pluses and minuses that Sandy has pointed out about the Y so far.

Munro is running a successful small business. Besides being paid for teardowns, manufacturers of all kinds hire Munro & Associates to improve their product. Sounds pretty American pie to me.


----------



## bwilson4web

Today is 'glass day' and a hoot:





Smashing the window glass is common to save people in a flood or if they are incapacitated:





Bob Wilson


----------



## Needsdecaf

That was, uh, unexpected. LOL.


----------



## CoastalCruiser

So if my car has tempered glass all around my emergecny hammer won't work but the first responders have the tools to break it. That's comforting.

Yesterday Sandy commented that when the pyro fuse pops it severs the two halves of the battery, thus dropping the voltage in half. Hmm.


----------



## bwilson4web

CoastalCruiser said:


> So if my car has tempered glass all around my emergecny hammer won't work but the first responders have the tools to break it. That's comforting.



simple tempered glass - you live
laminated tempered glass - you wait
Bob Wilson


----------



## CoastalCruiser

So the Model Y is also a good Chappaquiddick car!


----------



## bwilson4web

CoastalCruiser said:


> So the Model Y is also a good Chappaquiddick car!


I'm pretty sure it floats:

frunk insert appears water tight
trunk insert appears water tight
sealed battery and motors *may* be less dense than water
They'll have time to phone the Coast Guard.

Bob Wilson


----------



## AutopilotFan

bwilson4web said:


> I'm pretty sure it floats:
> 
> frunk insert appears water tight
> trunk insert appears water tight
> sealed battery and motors *may* be less dense than water


OK, now I want to know what it takes to make the Model Y *amphibious*!


----------



## bwilson4web

AutopilotFan said:


> OK, now I want to know what it takes to make the Model Y *amphibious*!






(*)

Bob Wilson

* - Members of this "insane clown posse" should be used for entertainment purposes only.


----------



## CoastalCruiser

I would love to see a write-up on someone doing an EV conversion on an Amphi-car.


----------



## msjulie

Would have to be a small battery else wouldn't it just sink the poor Amphi-car? I saw one once, years ago, parked at a train station. At the time, didn't have a clue what it was - little propeller out the back I was wtf? Odd that it would be at a train station no where near water


----------



## iChris93

Sandy has never recommended anyone buy a Model 3... but drives a Jeep 

Good news is that he has already recommended the Y a few times!


----------



## bwilson4web

Sean Mitchell interviews Sandy and brings out more details:





Bob Wilson


----------



## Needsdecaf

The OCTOVALVE!!!!


----------



## iChris93

This video focused on the door modules





As it was featured in the video and I had not seen under the Model 3 door card, I assumed this was new to the Y. @Garlan Garner posted this video today





This shows the Model 3 also has the module. Did the 3 have this module from the start?


----------



## Garlan Garner

iChris93 said:


> This video focused on the door modules
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As it was featured in the video and I had not seen under the Model 3 door card, I assumed this was new to the Y. @Garlan Garner posted this video today
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This shows the Model 3 also has the module. Did the 3 have this module from the start?


Which module are you referring to?


----------



## iChris93

Garlan Garner said:


> Which module are you referring to?


The plastic part housing the speaker, window regulator, pressure sensor, etc.


----------



## Garlan Garner

iChris93 said:


> The plastic part housing the speaker, window regulator, pressure sensor, etc.


Ahh yes.

Its been there all along. I saw that Munro video and I was confused on why he said it was absent from the Model 3 and new for the Model Y. Oh well...

There are a lot of errors in his video's that I resolve to just keep to myself.


----------



## bwilson4web

Nice map of how to improve performance: 





Bob Wilson


----------



## garsh

bwilson4web said:


> Nice map of how to improve performance:


I gotta take issue with his suggestion to replace the steering wheel with a stick. Tesla is working towards full autonomy. Once that's achieved, then the next step is to remove the steering control altogether. If that's your roadmap, then there's no point in developing an intermediate, stick-controlled steering mechanism. It'll be obsolete.

Those Martian wheels are sweet, but would Martian be able to supply the quantity that a company like Tesla would need, and at a price point that Tesla is willing to pay? The other issue is highway efficiency. Tesla's Aero wheels make a noticeable difference on the highway, where aero is more important than weight.


----------



## msjulie

Throwback kid - I prefer a steering wheel and am happy mine is actually hooked to the wheels even if there's a bunch of motors and software that also get in the act.


----------



## bwilson4web

garsh said:


> I gotta take issue with his suggestion to replace the steering wheel with a stick. Tesla is working towards full autonomy. Once that's achieved, then the next step is to remove the steering control altogether. If that's your roadmap, then there's no point in developing an intermediate, stick-controlled steering mechanism. It'll be obsolete.


Actually I would prefer replacing the floor pedals with 'rudder' pedals for direction. This would make a mechanical backup possible to some of the strongest limbs. Then the center stick would be for speed control with appropriate barriers to prevent 'dog driving.'



garsh said:


> Those Martian wheels are sweet, but would Martian be able to supply the quantity that a company like Tesla would need, and at a price point that Tesla is willing to pay? The other issue is highway efficiency. Tesla's Aero wheels make a noticeable difference on the highway, where aero is more important than weight.


They are a lot more expensive than I want so I've gone with:
. . .
Qty Size & Description Availability Price Each Item(s)​​Total 2 225/55R18 Bridgestone Ecopia EP422 Plus (H- or V-Speed Rated) Special Order $189.99 $379.98 Tire Rack Road Hazard Protection Included ($36.80 value. Two-year coverage.)​Note: Two Year Road Hazard Included*​​Other Products​Total 2 18x8 Gunmetal Painted Enkei Tuning TFR Available at Supplier $225.00 $450.00​
Total 2 Required centering ring In Stock N/C N/C 10 Required lugnut for vehicle (nickel plated)​In Stock N/C N/C 2 433MHz Tire Pressure Sensor In Stock $57.00 $114.00​
The current expectations is these parts will be available the last week of July.

Bob Wilson


----------



## bwilson4web

Hoot Hoot!





Personally, I think there should be:

Use motor power inverter for DC-to-AC interface - this provides +150 kW capacity, bi-directional
Use traction battery 'circuit' to replace 12 V battery
Duplex function of the rear motor power and suddenly all EVSE power limits evaporate. Bi-directional transfer is built in as well as fine voltage and frequency control.

The existing 12 V battery is a block of lead. The Hyundai approach that provides 12 V from the traction battery reduces weight and significantly increases life. Heck, I'd be happy with a super capacitor replacement for those who still want a 'power-on reset.'

Bob Wilson


----------



## garsh

bwilson4web said:


> The Hyundai approach that provides 12 V from the traction battery reduces weight and significantly increases life. Heck, I'd be happy with a super capacitor replacement for those who still want a 'power-on reset.'


Tesla had also used this approach with the original roadster. It has issues. One issue being that you end up losing all power when the pyro fuse blows, which means you can't do things like lock and unlock doors or open and close windows.


----------



## JWardell

bwilson4web said:


> Hoot Hoot!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Personally, I think there should be:
> 
> Use motor power inverter for DC-to-AC interface - this provides +150 kW capacity, bi-directional
> Use traction battery 'circuit' to replace 12 V battery
> Duplex function of the rear motor power and suddenly all EVSE power limits evaporate. Bi-directional transfer is built in as well as fine voltage and frequency control.
> 
> The existing 12 V battery is a block of lead. The Hyundai approach that provides 12 V from the traction battery reduces weight and significantly increases life. Heck, I'd be happy with a super capacitor replacement for those who still want a 'power-on reset.'
> 
> Bob Wilson


I suppose you could generate three phase grid AC from the motor inverter, but then you would need a way to disconnect the motor, plus a boatload of safety electronics. Those already exist in the PCS, which as described here only needs a little more circuitry to run in reverse. No doubt we will be seeing this on the cybertruck.

99% of your 12v power DOES come from the traction battery. From the same PCS, you get I believe 2000W of 12v power. The 12v battery is really only there for those times when the car is asleep and the traction battery and high voltage system is safely disconnected.


----------



## bwilson4web

JWardell said:


> I suppose you could generate three phase grid AC from the motor inverter, but then you would need a way to disconnect the motor, plus a boatload of safety electronics. Those already exist in the PCS, which as described here only needs a little more circuitry to run in reverse. No doubt we will be seeing this on the cybertruck.


I would probably design the switch in the inverter with three power outlets. Not trivial to meet code and good design practices, it could provide plenty of power.



JWardell said:


> 99% of your 12v power DOES come from the traction battery. From the same PCS, you get I believe 2000W of 12v power. The 12v battery is really only there for those times when the car is asleep and the traction battery and high voltage system is safely disconnected.


I just want to get rid of the lead and improve monitoring. My motivation are cars that were bricked when their 12 V battery failed. If a dedicated LiON volume in the battery, I'd be happy. But I note their LiON, 12 V replacement batteries. A little pricy but great weight reduction.

Bob Wilson


----------

