# The Chevy Bolt OFFICIAL DISCUSSION



## RSSFeed (Sep 28, 2016)

Chevy today teased on its Facebook Page that it would be announcing the Bolt's EV range tomorrow but asked readers to guess the range today. I don't think you'll get a free Bolt or anything but it's a fun game to play…and we have a poll below for your guesses… more…

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## garsh (Apr 4, 2016)

It has to be more than 215, or everyone in the media will make fun of them for this stunt.


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## Kizzy (Jul 25, 2016)

216. Ha ha ha.


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## pjfw8 (Apr 28, 2016)

224


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## Jayc (May 19, 2016)

I bet 235. However, its highway range will fall well short and they will avoid mentioning that.


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## garsh (Apr 4, 2016)

Jayc said:


> However, its highway range will fall well short and they will avoid mentioning that.


I assume they'll be announcing EPA ratings.


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## Paul Spiers (Apr 11, 2016)

It will no doubt be at least 215 miles but, may be as much as 225 miles. I agree that they wouldn't make such a big fuss over less than 215. In any case, Model 3 will most likely beat those numbers with a smaller battery. Does anybody know if the Bolts battery pack will have thermal management? Without it the mileage of the bolt will suffer in hot and cold conditions far more than the Model 3.


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## Jayc (May 19, 2016)

So there we have it officially, 238 miles EPA

http://www.chevrolet.com/bolt-ev-electric-vehicle.html

I was very close 

I still stand by my comment that it will struggle to achieve this at 70+ mph

Availability I predict early part of next year as opposed to late 2016 as claimed but you've got to hand it to them for giving the model 3 a good push. Competition is good.


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## RSSFeed (Sep 28, 2016)

After only talking about "more than 200 miles" for over a year now, GM finally announced today the expected EPA-rated range of its upcoming all-electric Chevy Bolt EV. The automaker expects the EPA to give the Bolt an impressive range of 238 miles. more…

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## TrevP (Oct 20, 2015)

Good for GM for pulling this off. The Bolt should sell well. However keep in mind it's intended target is the upper end of the affordability class of economy car. This is a Sonic with an expensive battery and total price with options shouldn't exceed $40K or so. The Model 3, despite having a similar base price, has the low-end luxury market (BMW 3 series, Audi A4, Merc C Class) clearly in it's sights. Model 3 options such as larger batteries, performance, dual motor drive, autopilot etc... will push ASP much much higher than the Bolt and in greater production numbers. These are very different cars.

I expect that Tesla will exceed the base quoted 215 miles with the Model 3 when they announce final numbers. More range on the Bolt is great but with a single battery offering and lower 50kWh charge rate its range for long-distance travel is hampered compared to what Tesla is offering.
I think Model 3 really represents a compelling EV than can replace and ICE vehicle and not just be a "secondary car" for most.

All the best to GM with the Bolt. Now let's get the rest of the automakers on board!


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## BigBri (Jul 16, 2016)

Good on them to get an EV out. I won't be getting one but it doesn't seem like a bad option at all. Main knock against it for me is the styling but for a hatchback it's pretty decent looking. At anyone considering one of these you'll want to keep in mind that the drag on these is huge. Any highway driving you won't get great range. 

It'll be good for Tesla to get some competition. Knowing Elon he'll need to exceed that 238 number.


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## TrevP (Oct 20, 2015)

The Bolt is decent but I had a chance to see the prototype at the Toronto Auto show in February 2015. It was way nicer looking than the production car. Too bad GM "dumbed it down"

https://goo.gl/photos/fy4HDm9Mcoq1pgbp9


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## TrevP (Oct 20, 2015)

Paul Spiers said:


> It will no doubt be at least 215 miles but, may be as much as 225 miles. I agree that they wouldn't make such a big fuss over less than 215. In any case, Model 3 will most likely beat those numbers with a smaller battery. Does anybody know if the Bolts battery pack will have thermal management? Without it the mileage of the bolt will suffer in hot and cold conditions far more than the Model 3.


Yes, the Bolt has liquid cooled battery pack like the Model S. Even the Volt has a liquid cooled pack.

I have a feeling Tesla is being conservative with the 215 mile range of the Model 3. Elon said "200 miles you can count on". 
EPA as we know is stricter than the European NDEC testing cycle, which is why you have to remember European car makers announcing cars with 300 miles of range is more like 200 EPA. We'll see how the Bolt fares with the stated range but real-world will surely be a bit lower than 238.

In any case, at least they have fast DC charge, albeit only 50kWh. If they can get a few of them in Ontario they should sell well given our new Ontario Charging infrastructure is CHAdeMO and CCS but what we don't know yet is how much of a hit we'll have to take with the exchange rate. Rebates should lessen the blow too.


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## MelindaV (Apr 2, 2016)

I am surprised at the mileage rating they released. I fully expected it to land just a tick past 215. 
I think once this is out on the roads (and especially after the Model ☰ is too), people will realize the Bolt and Model ☰ are not in the same class. 
Granted I drive a tiny car currently (produced by the same organization), but when I see a Spark or Sonic on the freeway next to normal sized cars I can't help but compare it to the old Geo Metros that were not much more than a tin box on wheels.


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## xxZULAxx (Apr 5, 2016)

I am looking at the images, it doesn't look that small? Am i missing something here? Can someone compare it to model 3?


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## TrevP (Oct 20, 2015)

It's pretty much the base size as a Chevy Trax:

http://www.chevrolet.ca/trax-small-suv.html


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## xxZULAxx (Apr 5, 2016)

I mean, we really have to get away from having 1/3rd of a car there for nothing and increase cabin space. I am not sure if we need so much safety room since no combustion engine exists anymore.


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## Topher (May 11, 2016)

I must say it looks better in black on a beach, than in orange or multi-color.

The 238 is excellent news, for everyone.

Thank you kindly.


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## Rick59 (Jul 20, 2016)

xxZULAxx said:


> I mean, we really have to get away from having 1/3rd of a car there for nothing and increase cabin space. I am not sure if we need so much safety room since no combustion engine exists anymore.


You need a fair amount of forward space to dissipate the energy from a full frontal. Otherwise, you're in a very expensive coffin.


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## TrevP (Oct 20, 2015)

Unlike Teslas the Bolt's motor and electronics are in the front of the car (no frunk) . GM designed the car to be made on the same production line as ICE cars so they can use a lot of the same tooling to build it.

It's also front wheel drive and has a much smaller crumple zone.


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## Paul Spiers (Apr 11, 2016)

TrevP said:


> Yes, the Bolt has liquid cooled battery pack like the Model S. Even the Volt has a liquid cooled pack.
> 
> I have a feeling Tesla is being conservative with the 215 mile range of the Model 3. Elon said "200 miles you can count on".
> EPA as we know is stricter than the European NDEC testing cycle, which is why you have to remember European car makers announcing cars with 300 miles of range is more like 200 EPA. We'll see how the Bolt fares with the stated range but real-world will surely be a bit lower than 238.
> ...


Good for the advent of affordable EVs but, I'm waiting for my Model 3.


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## MelindaV (Apr 2, 2016)

xxZULAxx said:


> I am looking at the images, it doesn't look that small? Am i missing something here? Can someone compare it to model 3?


here's some comparison measurements
Model 3 (MT estimate)....184"L x 74"W x 56 ½"H 113"WB
Chevy Bolt............................164"L x 69 ½"W x 63" H 102 WB


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## Curtish8892 (Apr 24, 2016)

TrevP said:


> Good for GM for pulling this off. The Bolt should sell well. However keep in mind it's intended target is the upper end of the affordability class of economy car. This is a Sonic with an expensive battery and total price with options shouldn't exceed $40K or so. The Model 3, despite having a similar base price, has the low-end luxury market (BMW 3 series, Audi A4, Merc C Class) clearly in it's sights. Model 3 options such as larger batteries, performance, dual motor drive, autopilot etc... will push ASP much much higher than the Bolt and in greater production numbers. These are very different cars.
> 
> I expect that Tesla will exceed the base quoted 215 miles with the Model 3 when they announce final numbers. More range on the Bolt is great but with a single battery offering and lower 50kWh charge rate its range for long-distance travel is hampered compared to what Tesla is offering.
> I think Model 3 really represents a compelling EV than can replace and ICE vehicle and not just be a "secondary car" for most.
> ...


Right on the money. If I want a BMW, Audi equivalent it would not be the BOLT.

Now if I am in the market for a Honda Fit then I would look at a Bolt but it would be to expensive

Forbes article about largest charging network and ownership of battery factory kills me. They are trying very hard to make Tesla look like fools for creating a supercharger network and a giga factory.

Points they did not write about:
- Teslas can charge using other chargers
- More that enough room in the market for another battery company when EV and storage become popular

Sorry for going off topic.


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## RSSFeed (Sep 28, 2016)

Now that mostly everyone has had a chance to catch up on GM and Chevy's recent announcement about their Bolt EV, we thought it would be helpful to roundup some of the initial first impressions about the car from members of the press that were flown to California by Chevy to test the Bolt's range…

more…

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## RSSFeed (Sep 28, 2016)

_…You've done the first 240 miles of California highway with relative ease. But how do you do the second 240 miles? And 3rd…? In short, can you drive cross country?_

I'm more than impressed with the Chevy Bolt so far - it has exceeded my expectations by at least 20 miles of range and during my test drive at CES earlier this year in Las Vegas I found it to be very roomy and sporty and frankly a lot of fun to drive. Chevy should absolutely be applauded. We covered the recent reviews here.

But as an EV buyer, I'm not yet satisfied with Chevy's solution to cross country driving…you know the quintessential American Road Trip… more…

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## TrevP (Oct 20, 2015)

GM marketing for the Bolt has started. First it was the revelation of the 238 mile EPA range.

Now they're starting to let publications take drives in pre-production cars.

Here are a couple of initial videos of the cars. More coming and keep discussions in here about the car. Thanks!


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## chopr147 (May 23, 2016)

Good for GM, glad they are working on a decent car. But, would I cancel my model 3 reservation for a small, putz around town,commuter car? Heck no! I don't believe this is a Model 3 competitor and I bet 3 out of 4 reservers agree.


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## Jayc (May 19, 2016)

chopr147 said:


> Good for GM, glad they are working on a decent car. But, would I cancel my model 3 reservation for a small, putz around town,commuter car? Heck no! I don't believe this is a Model 3 competitor and I bet 3 out of 4 reservers agree.


Totally agree, I applaud GM for bringing this car out without delay and its range is a bonus.

However, I am looking for a real upgrade over my current car and to that end, the Bolt is just another EV econobox that is expensive and not quite enough of an upgrade.

At the end of the day people are well informed these days and hence why Tesla got 100k preorders within hours and I believe they will do very well with Model 3. We might very well get a better Model 3 because of Bolt and that is not a bad thing. What most people don't realise is that this is a win win for all.


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## Topher (May 11, 2016)

chopr147 said:


> I don't believe this is a Model 3 competitor and I bet 3 out of 4 reservers agree.


There's an interesting idea, what would GM do if they got 100,000 pre-order inquiries? Would they make (or pay LG to) a new factory to build those units, or would they just raise the price until demand met supply of 30k - 50k?

Thank you kindly.


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## TrevP (Oct 20, 2015)

GM wouldn't raise the price as their customers are not us. Their dealers are their customers so *they* would raise the price. Happened when the Volt came out. They were selling at full list and some in cases above list price.

Then suddenly demand caved and they couldn't sell any so they started stuffing the trunks with money and dropping the price.


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## chopr147 (May 23, 2016)

Topher said:


> what would GM do if they got 100,000 pre-order inquiries?


They might just make 30,000 and claim no interest. Or bring them out into the desert and crush 'em


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## Paul Spiers (Apr 11, 2016)

chopr147 said:


> They might just make 30,000 and claim no interest. Or bring them out into the desert and crush 'em


This is what concerns me about GM, they do not have very much at stake with manufacturing EV's. If they aren't selling them they may very well stop making them and any parts for future support. As you point out, if sales are slow or none existent, they will claim that the average consumer does not want an EV. Obviously they wouldn't be able to take them back, but people who bought them in good faith would be left with cars they couldn't fix and would be virtually worthless and unsellable as used cars.
Tesla on the other hand is fully invested in the production of EV's. That doesn't mean though that there isn't a possibility, although I believe remote at best, that they too could go out of business with the same resulting fall out for owners of Model S, 3 and X. However, I feel confident, based on the pre orders, that they will succeed in mass producing enough cars to become profitable and will continue to expand their product line up.


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## garsh (Apr 4, 2016)

Don't compare GM to Tesla. GM is a well-established automaker that makes about 10 million vehicles per year. They know that there's a push to make vehicles more efficient. They know that there's a good possibility that EV's will win at some point. But there's too much risk for them to simply abandon ICE production right now. The majority of consumers don't want an ICE. Hell, the majority don't even know that electric cars exist. I can't tell you how many people have asked about the "gas mileage" in my Leaf, right after I've told them that it's an electric car - everybody assumes it's a hybrid.

Compared to the other established automakers, GM (and Nissan) has taken a bit of a gamble by developing a full-on electric car. They're only planning to make ~22,000 Bolts next year. Their goal is NOT to replace ICE with electric. Their goal is to not get caught with their pants down if (when) electric cars take over the world. They'll have some experience and some established partnerships (LG Chem in particular) if the market swings toward EVs, and GM decides that they need to ramp up their EV offerings.

GM is not out to kill EVs. GM is a follower, not a leader. They follow the market, and they'll make whatever the market is willing to buy. So to keep GM moving along the path towards EVs, we still need a leader (Tesla) to push the boundaries and prove that this technology can be competitive with ICE technology.

I'm more concerned about Ford and Chrysler, since they seem to be doing nothing (except compliance cars) on the EV front. I believe the market for ICE vehicles will collapse quite suddenly within the next 5 years, and companies that can't switch production quickly are going to be hurting.


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## TrevP (Oct 20, 2015)

I wrote Chrysler off a long time ago. 

I have a Ford (Lincoln) at the moment and I'm very disappointed in their EV efforts. For a company that managed to survive the economic recession on 2008 you'd think they'd be a bit more proactive. They're the least offensive American car maker I considered for my last car, Tesla notwithstanding. 

I will certainly take the Bolt for a test drive when it arrives in the great white North but I'm certainly not buying one. Model 3 is the only affordable compelling EV on the horizon. .


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## Paul Spiers (Apr 11, 2016)

garsh said:


> Don't compare GM to Tesla. GM is a well-established automaker that makes about 10 million vehicles per year. They know that there's a push to make vehicles more efficient. They know that there's a good possibility that EV's will win at some point. But there's too much risk for them to simply abandon ICE production right now. The majority of consumers don't want an ICE. Hell, the majority don't even know that electric cars exist. I can't tell you how many people have asked about the "gas mileage" in my Leaf, right after I've told them that it's an electric car - everybody assumes it's a hybrid.
> 
> Compared to the other established automakers, GM (and Nissan) has taken a bit of a gamble by developing a full-on electric car. They're only planning to make ~22,000 Bolts next year. Their goal is NOT to replace ICE with electric. Their goal is to not get caught with their pants down if (when) electric cars take over the world. They'll have some experience and some established partnerships (LG Chem in particular) if the market swings toward EVs, and GM decides that they need to ramp up their EV offerings.
> 
> ...


Although I agree with almo


garsh said:


> Don't compare GM to Tesla. GM is a well-established automaker that makes about 10 million vehicles per year. They know that there's a push to make vehicles more efficient. They know that there's a good possibility that EV's will win at some point. But there's too much risk for them to simply abandon ICE production right now. The majority of consumers don't want an ICE. Hell, the majority don't even know that electric cars exist. I can't tell you how many people have asked about the "gas mileage" in my Leaf, right after I've told them that it's an electric car - everybody assumes it's a hybrid.
> 
> Compared to the other established automakers, GM (and Nissan) has taken a bit of a gamble by developing a full-on electric car. They're only planning to make ~22,000 Bolts next year. Their goal is NOT to replace ICE with electric. Their goal is to not get caught with their pants down if (when) electric cars take over the world. They'll have some experience and some established partnerships (LG Chem in particular) if the market swings toward EVs, and GM decides that they need to ramp up their EV offerings.
> 
> ...


I agree with most of your points but, one has to admit that even if GM is trying not to get caught with their pants down, they are still only making a compliance car. The other legacy manufacturers are also doing the same, they however have chosen not to compete with Tesla, unlike GM. This is why it is a fair comparison.


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## MelindaV (Apr 2, 2016)

With Chevy only offering the Bolt in CARB states makes it look like a compliance car for sure.


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## garsh (Apr 4, 2016)

Paul Spiers said:


> they are still only making a compliance car.


We may simply disagree on the definition of a compliance car. Even Green Car Reports (which I believe coined the term) doesn't appear to be taking a definitive stand on whether the Bolt will be a compliance car.
Green Car Reports: Why We Call Out Compliance Cars Among All Electric Vehicles
Green Car Reports: Bob Lutz called 2017 Chevy Bolt EV a 'compliance car'; is it?

GM is planning to make as many Bolts per month as the Nissan Leaf sold during its best months, so the numbers are pretty good. They are planning to (eventually) sell in all 50 states, whereas compliance cars are only available from dealers in CARB states (California/Oregon/Maryland). And there's no indication that they'll stop offering the vehicle for sale once they've met the sales quota (must sell so many zero-emissions cars in California or you won't be allowed to sell other cars). That's why I don't believe the Bolt should be considered a compliance car.


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## MelindaV (Apr 2, 2016)

Here's the current list of current CARB states
Arizona, California, Connecticut, Maine, Maryland, Massachusetts, New Jersey, New Mexico, New York, Oregon, Pennsylvania, Rhode Island, Vermont, and Washington, and the District of Columbia.


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## RSSFeed (Sep 28, 2016)

GM confirmed the base price of the Chevy Bolt EV today. It reiterated that it will start at $37,495 before any EV incentives for the base LT trim. And now, the automaker also confirmed the price for the Canadian version of the car.

Surprisingly, it will be significantly cheaper in Canada and I'm not talking about electric vehicle incentives. more…

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## MelindaV (Apr 2, 2016)

The Verge posted some prices for the Premier trim package 
LT (base) $37,495
Premier $40,905
Features of the two on chevy.com


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## TrevP (Oct 20, 2015)

Canadian pricing has bee confirmed: $42,795 before options, taxes and rebates. Cheaper than in the US after exchange is factored in!

Unlike Tesla, other car makers price their cars in Canada not from direct US change but factor in buying $ power and spreading exchange fluctuations across a larger selection of vehicles. This sometimes results in Canadian pricing being cheaper than the US if take into account exchange rates.


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## garsh (Apr 4, 2016)

MelindaV said:


> Here's the current list of current CARB states
> Arizona, California, Connecticut, Maine, Maryland, Massachusetts, New Jersey, New Mexico, New York, Oregon, Pennsylvania, Rhode Island, Vermont, and Washington, and the District of Columbia.


That coincides pretty well with where compliance cars are sold:


> The e-Golf will be available only at participating dealers in California, Connecticut, Maine, Maryland, Massachusetts, New Jersey, New York, Oregon, Rhode Island, Vermont, and Washington D.C.


I wonder why VW has skipped Pennsylvania, New Mexico, and Washington? Are those states simply more recent converts?


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## TrevP (Oct 20, 2015)

Keep in mind, GM is only going to me making around 30,000 Bolts a year so they're targeting CARB states first since those will have the most impact for them for credits.

GM will say it's not a compliance car but given the low production numbers and no other offerings amidst their massive fleet of other cars they make on a yearly basis: it's a compliance car.


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## TrevP (Oct 20, 2015)

MelindaV said:


> The Verge posted some prices for the Premier trim package
> LT (base) $37,495
> Premier $40,905
> Features of the two on chevy.com


Fast DC charging: $750 option... Not to mention it's limited to 50kw

Looks like GM doesn't think people will do much long-distance travelling in this car. Not including fast DC charging is insulting and sends the wrong message. My faith in this car being the portent of something new for GM is dropping like mad.


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## MelindaV (Apr 2, 2016)

TrevP said:


> Fast DC charging: $750 option... Not to mention it's limited to 50kw
> 
> Looks like GM doesn't think people will do much long-distance travelling in this car. Not including fast DC charging is insulting and sends the wrong message. My faith in this car being the portent of something new for GM is dropping like mad.


And I thought the general feeling was any FC would be an extra $ option on the Bolt, so wasn't surprised to see that. I even thought $750 was less than I expected they would charge


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## TrevP (Oct 20, 2015)

Hey, even BMW includes CCS fast charging at no extra cost on the i3.

I'm just glad Teslas have the ability to use the Superchargers, one-time or per-use cost is irrelevant. It's just there.


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## garsh (Apr 4, 2016)

TrevP said:


> GM will say it's not a compliance car but given the low production numbers and no other offerings amidst their massive fleet of other cars they make on a yearly basis: it's a compliance car.


If you compare 30,000 vehicles/year to the sales of any other non-compliance EV (include Tesla Model S and Model X and the Volt), then this is in the same ballpark. Chevy is still just dipping their toes in the water - they're not trying to drive EV adoption, they just want to make sure they have the technology if needed to compete. But I think this qualifies as more than just CARB-compliance. It will (eventually) be sold throughout the states, not just in CARB states.

Ref: Plug-in sales scorecard


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## chopr147 (May 23, 2016)

garsh said:


> Hell, the majority don't even know that electric cars exist.


Now that i'm lucky enough to own an S I look at ICE cars wholly different then I did a few months ago. I even hate driving my wife's Lexus now 
2 months ago I would use it all the time for local store runs etc....and thought of it as a nice ride. Now it just sounds loud and slow

I see MB, BMW, Audi's, Volvo's etc.........on the road and feel like I have the better car..........by a mile! And cannot understand why someone would spend so much on a car when they could have gotten a Tesla for less money. So I guess I am a Tesla snob now  sorry. Like you said though, many people are not even aware of the EV choices out there. Sometimes I wish Tesla would advertise , you know a Superbowl commercial or something.


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## chopr147 (May 23, 2016)

TrevP said:


> Canadian pricing has bee confirmed: $42,795 before options, taxes and rebates. Cheaper than in the US after exchange is factored in!
> 
> Unlike Tesla, other car makers price their cars in Canada not from direct US change but factor in buying $ power and spreading exchange fluctuations across a larger selection of vehicles. This sometimes results in Canadian pricing being cheaper than the US if take into account exchange rates.


Good for Canadians! So many times you guys pay more, at least ya get a break once in a while


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## TrevP (Oct 20, 2015)

I almost forgot to mention that both trim levels of the Bolt in Canada will include fast DC charging at no extra cost. Costs extra in the US. WTF??


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## MelindaV (Apr 2, 2016)

@TrevP - did you see the comment guessing the lower CAD price may be due to Canadian:Korean trade deals? still doesn't explain the DCFC, but maybe the lower MSRP


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## TrevP (Oct 20, 2015)

Might be because of deals but I was told by a friend who's in the auto trade for over 30 years that American car makers who have presences in other countries that they deal a lot in foreign exchange buying and selling in an effort to spread rate fluctuation exposure and also spread those costs over larger vehicle selections.

Tesla doesn't have any kind of clout so they have no choice but to price in USD and exchange rates come into play. It's not quite that simple as Tesla's are not exactly priced in Canada with straight exchange. There's also a 6.1% nafta duty and another 2% or so in business costs on top.

A base Model S 60 is $66K USD and $86K CAD. At the current 1.3 exchange rate it's pretty much right there but the effective rate is more like 1.2 given the extra nafta and business costs. Tesla is most likely not making as much profit on cars up here. 

Let's not forget that once the initial newness of the Bolt wears off and demand decreases GM dealers will start the usual haggling and discounts. So if people can wait a year or so we should see better pricing on the Bolt. 

Not changing my Model 3 order though


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## Daliman (Apr 20, 2016)

While I intend to test drive the bolt when they come to the GPA the lack of fast chargers means I won't buy one. I am not sure what buyer will go for this car over a leaf or sigh waiting for the model 3. Still the only affordable compelling EV.


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## chopr147 (May 23, 2016)

TrevP said:


> Not changing my Model 3 order though


This is the answer I have gotten for EVERY single reservation holder. Same answer on TMC. And I give the same answer 
Getting 400,000 reservations is more than just wanting an EV. People want a TESLA! and with good reason!
Personally I could not wait and purchased an S when the 60kwh came out. But, my wife's car lease will expire eventually and that 3 will be waiting


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## TrevP (Oct 20, 2015)

@chopr147 I'd probably be in a Model S 70D right now if the Canadian dollar had not dropped from at US par from a couple of years ago but right now Model S is just too damned expensive in Canada ($86K before options plus 13% tax and only a $3K rebate)


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## chopr147 (May 23, 2016)

I would be still driving my Yukon at those prices. The S w/ AP,leather and pano was just under $85,000 w/ tax.
Tax credits of $7500 feds and $2000 NY make it somewhat doable. Not to rub it in but what a great car!


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## teslaliving (Apr 2, 2016)

It seems crazy to me that it's supposed to ship by December and you still can't configure/see the options on it and price it out or even get a sense of availability in your area.


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## MelindaV (Apr 2, 2016)

just saw a new Bolt article pop up and in the opening paragraphs was this:
"General Motors officials confirm the automaker's hotly anticipated battery-electric vehicle with a perhaps revolutionary 238 miles (383 km) of range and $37,000 price tag will land under the rooftops of U.S. dealerships by the end of the year.
Exactly how many of the 5-passenger CUVs will be made available is unclear, but the assembly plant here cranks out one Bolt every three days with a 1-shift crew. They've been building salable units for roughly five weeks."​So a single shift, working for 5 weeks at 1 car per 3 days = 8 of these revolutionary vehicles are built and ready to ship.


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## garsh (Apr 4, 2016)

Once they've made that 9th car, they'll be able to fill up the first car carrier trailer!


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## Badback (Apr 7, 2016)

Jayc said:


> I bet 235. However, its highway range will fall well short and they will avoid mentioning that.


650 miles, on the reverse Pike's Peak run.


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## Michael Russo (Oct 15, 2016)

First deliveries on truck then train to West Coast...

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/807608460686884864


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## Michael Russo (Oct 15, 2016)

More Bolt 'promotion'... yet can GM deliver... or do they want to? Time will tell...

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/807676529090187264


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## Michael Russo (Oct 15, 2016)

Surprise: the Bolt requires little maintenance... 

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/807963294048944128


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## AEDennis (Apr 10, 2016)

Michael Russo said:


> Surprise: the Bolt requires little maintenance...
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/807963294048944128


Neither did the EV1

I was positive on these guys to start, but their actions since the election make me wonder...


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## Michael Russo (Oct 15, 2016)

Let's Bolt to Canada now...! 

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/807993423416410112


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## Badback (Apr 7, 2016)

When I think of BOLT, I think of the terminals sticking out of the neck of Frankenstein's monster. I'm keeping torches and a pitch fork handy in case I spot one near my village. It's a long wait, gotta do something.


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## Paul Spiers (Apr 11, 2016)

That is hilarious. I don't understand why they would have chosen a name that is easy to make jokes about. The European model sounds much better the Ampera is a better sounding name and less shocking than a Bolt. Sorry, couldn't resist and pun.


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## chopr147 (May 23, 2016)

Even more confusion when every time you talk to someone about it you need to add the caveat: The Bolt not the Volt


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## Michael Russo (Oct 15, 2016)

And now (cf. my previous post under Media) for the 'not so upper' middle class...  
The car that GM just regrets losing $9,000 on... 
http://www.nbcnews.com/business/autos/want-go-electric-can-t-afford-tesla-could-be-answer-n695036


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## Michael Russo (Oct 15, 2016)

News on the Bolt 2017 NA coverage expansion...

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/808725596922593281


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## Michael Russo (Oct 15, 2016)

This is more than concerning the Bolt yet indicative of how much GM (or is it just Opel?!) truly believe in the success of what they (and others...) are doing in EVs...
https://cleantechnica.com/2016/12/1...on-electric-cars-10-15-new-sales-europe-2030/


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## Topher (May 11, 2016)

10-15% wouldn't even cover the countries where it will be_ illegal _to sell ICE cars at that point (from _current_ regulations).

Thank you kindly.


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## MichelT3 (Nov 16, 2016)

Michael Russo said:


> This is more than concerning the Bolt yet indicative of how much GM (or is it just Opel?!) truly believe in the success of what they (and others...) are doing in EVs...
> https://cleantechnica.com/2016/12/1...on-electric-cars-10-15-new-sales-europe-2030/


Meaning they don't want to believe in BEV's.
Because when you say "GM/Opel Europe Exec Expectation: Electric Cars = 10-15% Of New Sales In Europe By 2030", you clearly don't believe in BEV's as the future.
My headline would be: "Fossil cars in Europe just 50 % of new car sales by 2020 and unsellable by 2025, due to expected loss of second hand value by lease companies and private buyers".


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## MichelT3 (Nov 16, 2016)

Although I'm probably too optimistic. More realistic will be to push it backward 5 years.

What most into ICE-people seem to forget is the speed with which the new technology will spread. How fast new factories for that new technology are going to be built. That they are not those who decide what will be produced. If the European and US-carmakers don't wake up fast, they will be overtaken by Chinese makes, who have milked their knowledge about building ICE cars and mix that with new battery and electric motor technology.


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## Badback (Apr 7, 2016)

I have some questions:

When will people stop buying ICE cars in anticipation of their 100% depreciation?
Will people bail out of their auto loans and stick the finance companies with a useless vehicle.
When will finance companies refuse to finance ICE cars?
What happens to all of the infrastructure that supports ICE cars. 168,000 filling stations in the US alone, refineries, storage and transportation of fuel?
What happens to all of the unusable ICE cars? Impact on steel prices due to increase in scrap steel?
How far will you have to go to get gas for your lawn mower, etc.? Will they also become electric.
What is the impact on the economy of people not going to gas up? Convenience stores, local businesses?

I'm sure that there are at least 100 more pertinent questions.


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## MichelT3 (Nov 16, 2016)

Badback said:


> I have some questions:
> 
> When will people stop buying ICE cars in anticipation of their 100% depreciation?
> Will people bail out of their auto loans and stick the finance companies with a useless vehicle.
> ...


Exactly! We still can't forsee all consequences. Which will be bigger than we can imagine.

In my country most lawnmowers are electric already. Also selfdriving mowers. Which would be my choice if I need to buy another.

My concern is gas for my classic ICE-car.


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## garsh (Apr 4, 2016)

Badback said:


> When will people stop buying ICE cars in anticipation of their 100% depreciation?


I've thought about this too. In particular, I was wondering how long I could wait before trying to sell my minivan. I still think I have a couple of years before it starts becoming an issue.


> What happens to all of the infrastructure that supports ICE cars. 168,000 filling stations in the US alone


Thinking about filling stations in particular - some will survive just as convenience stores. Convenience stores exist as gas stations because we like the idea of taking care of two errands (one of which is getting gas) at the same time. We'll still have a need for convenience stores. And none of them actually make money on selling gas, so it won't hurt their profits. Some may need to re-think how to attract customers, since fill-ups will no longer be the primary draw. And many will probably not be able to adapt and will go out of business.


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## Michael Russo (Oct 15, 2016)

Courtesy of InsideEVs, here's a new review of the Bolt by Bloomberg - first, love this humorful description of the interior: "_It is "nice" in the way Ikea furniture is "nice," which is to say it is thoughtful, pragmatic and not terrible looking. You just don't want to touch it too much." _
In all fairness, the article also states :_"GM has achieved a long-range, affordable electric car, that is quite practical."_
What sticks... and, ok, I plead guilty to being biased, is: _"It's unlikely the Bolt will crush Tesla's nascent Model 3. It has made essentially the anti-Tesla, a vehicle long on utility & short on sexy."
http://insideevs.com/chevrolet-bolt-long-on-utility-short-on-sexy/_


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## Badback (Apr 7, 2016)

At my age, I'm all about "long on sexy".


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## Michael Russo (Oct 15, 2016)

Badback said:


> At my age, I'm all about "long on sexy".


Hence our shared passion for Model ≡!


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## Michael Russo (Oct 15, 2016)

Folks... I would not have posted this (maybe we've heard enough about the Bolt in recent months + the article seems to be 3 weeks old and least...), yet can't resist sharing this _killer line_ 'According to Tavel, he engineered the Bolt like a mini Tesla Model S.'... 

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/815582540832669696


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## Paul Spiers (Apr 11, 2016)

We need some updates from Tesla on the Model 3 to counter all of the attention the Bolt is receiving. Maybe Trevor could tweet Elon and ask for an update. Even though we are probably only 3 months away from the reveal number 3, I think it would be a morale booster to hear from Elon.


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## MichelT3 (Nov 16, 2016)

I don't know whether I'm laughing my head off when Tavel calls the Bolt a 'mini Model S', or cry in desperation because he said
"The focus, at least from his side of things, was never on being green",
making it clear that he and GM still haven't understood why the transition to EV's is essential!
It's rather pathetic actually.

Sorry @Paul Spiers, but I don't agree. Tesla doesn't need to react to competition which is no competition at all. Besides Tesla has no shortage at reservations / probable orders. This goes for the GM Bolt as well as Faraday Future. Tesla should do its reveals when it's ready. Waiting a while till the dust about these 'competitors' has settled down seems wiser to me. Because the capabilities of the Model 3 will blow the others away imho.


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## Michael Russo (Oct 15, 2016)

Paul Spiers said:


> We need some updates from Tesla on the Model 3 to counter all of the attention the Bolt is receiving. Maybe Trevor could tweet Elon and ask for an update. Even though we are probably only 3 months away from the reveal number 3, I think it would be a morale booster to hear from Elon.





MichelT3 said:


> Sorry @Paul Spiers, but I don't agree. Tesla doesn't need to react to competition which is no competition at all. Besides Tesla has no shortage at reservations / probable orders. This goes for the GM Bolt as well as Faraday Future. Tesla should do its reveals when it's ready. Waiting a while till the dust about these 'competitors' has settled down seems wiser to me. Because the capabilities of the Model 3 will blow the others away imho.


Folks... while are all impatient for fresh news, believe most of us if not all at M3OC know that, while other talk or tease, or bring capacity -constrained electric boxes on the market for compliance reasons, Elon is driving all his folks @ T≡SLA as well as their suppliers to ensure Model ≡ production starts on time!
Hence I am convinced we will start getting an avalanche of (good) news on this over the next few weeks & months and then we won't hear much about the Bolt, Lucid, let alone Faraday Past... 
Let's keep it up!


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## Paul Spiers (Apr 11, 2016)

MichelT3 said:


> I don't know whether I'm laughing my head off when Tavel calls the Bolt a 'mini Model S', or cry in desperation because he said
> "The focus, at least from his side of things, was never on being green",
> making it clear that he and GM still haven't understood why the transition to EV's is essential!
> It's rather pathetic actually.
> ...


Hi Michel, you made very good points that I hadn't considered. Although, I was thinking that for the core group it would be nice to hear something from Elon but, your assessment is correct, Bolt isn't real competition. It's lack of supercharging makes it virtually unusable for long distance travel. I guess I need to be more patient


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## Michael Russo (Oct 15, 2016)

Paul Spiers said:


> Hi Michel, you made very good points that I hadn't considered. Although, I was thinking that for the core group it would be nice to hear something from Elon but, your assessment is correct, Bolt isn't real competition. It's lack of supercharging makes it virtually unusable for long distance travel. I guess I need to be more patient


Thanks, @Paul Spiers , I'm with you, believe me. Those who know me are conscious of the fact that patience is NOT my greatest quality... yet I am making a special effort here to boost us all (hence including myself ), because it's about time at 59 I get better at this...and... because Model ≡ is going to be SO MUCH WORTH IT!!


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## MichelT3 (Nov 16, 2016)

@Paul Spiers: And it's lack of AutoPilot too!
I bet we stand together in this.


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## Paul Spiers (Apr 11, 2016)

MichelT3 said:


> @Paul Spiers: And it's lack of AutoPilot too!
> I bet we stand together in this.


You can count on that my friend.


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## Guy Weathersby (Jun 22, 2016)

Michael Russo said:


> Thanks, @Paul Spiers , I'm with you, believe me. Those who know me are conscious of the fact that patience is NOT my greatest quality... yet I am making a special effort here to boost us all (hence including myself ), because it's about time at 59 I get better at this...and... because Model ≡ is going to be SO MUCH WORTH IT!!


The thing that these "Tesla Killer" articles never seem to grasp is that even if GM sells every Bolt they plan to make (which is very likely) and every Bolt buyer would have bought a Tesla (which is obviously absurd), it still would only dent Model 3 demand.

The only advantage that I can see for the Bolt is ontological, a car that exists is better than a car that doesn't. And that advantage is temporary and currently regional. If you desperately need a car soon and live in CA or OR, it may be your best choice. Otherwise the Model 3 is certainly worth the wait.


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## Michael Russo (Oct 15, 2016)

Another _to die for_, from the Detroit 'Free' Press (!) :
_"'Game-changer' is an overused term, but sometimes the game does change … If the Bolt isn't the vehicle that makes electric power and autonomy part of mainstream American transportation, it's hard to imagine what will."_
OMG! _Hard to imagine?! _Which planet are these guys on...?? Should we send them a link to the Motor Trend videos of Model ≡ shot at the Gigafactory 1?! 

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/815603538554404864


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## MichelT3 (Nov 16, 2016)

Michael Russo said:


> Another _to die for_, from the Detroit 'Free' Press (!) :
> _"'Game-changer' is an overused term, but sometimes the game does change … If the Bolt isn't the vehicle that makes electric power and autonomy part of mainstream American transportation, it's hard to imagine what will."_
> OMG! _Hard to imagine?! _Which planet are these guys on...?? Should we send them a link to the Motor Trend videos of Model ≡ shot at the Gigafactory 1?!
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/815603538554404864


Hilarious!


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## Dan Detweiler (Apr 8, 2016)

MichelT3 said:


> I don't know whether I'm laughing my head off when Tavel calls the Bolt a 'mini Model S', or cry in desperation because he said
> "The focus, at least from his side of things, was never on being green",
> making it clear that he and GM still haven't understood why the transition to EV's is essential!


Gotta respectfully disagree with you here. I have always said that in order to change the minds of the masses regarding EVs, manufacturers must make compelling products that beat their ICE competitors in every area.

Right or wrong the majority of the general public will never consider environmental factors as viable concerns regarding their automotive choice at least initially.

Tesla just needs to keep doing what its doing...building quicker, beter looking, more efficient, more utilitarian and cheaper cars. The fact that they are better for the environment isn't even a consideration for the ICE loving, gas burning, engine screaming crowd.

Dan


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## MelindaV (Apr 2, 2016)

Dan Detweiler said:


> Gotta respectfully disagree with you here. I have always said that in order to change the minds of the masses regarding EVs, manufacturers must make compelling products that beat their ICE competitors in every area.
> 
> Right or wrong the majority of the general public will never consider environmental factors as viable concerns regarding their automotive choice at least initially.
> 
> ...


the thing that will become an impact on the ICE loving crowd is when there are significant numbers of $35k-ish EV owners bragging to their friends the amount they have saved on fuel vs the lower cost of added electricity with their new car.
that really is what has made the Prius popular, right? Getting 50MPG vs 25MPG, and not because of its looks, but despite of its looks, right?


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## MichelT3 (Nov 16, 2016)

Dan Detweiler said:


> Gotta respectfully disagree with you here. I have always said that in order to change the minds of the masses regarding EVs, manufacturers must make compelling products that beat their ICE competitors in every area.
> 
> Right or wrong the majority of the general public will never consider environmental factors as viable concerns regarding their automotive choice at least initially.
> 
> ...


No, Dan, you're turning it around. I wasn't saying that most people will buy an EV because of environmental necessity. (Factors is much too weak...) That's believing too much in the good of mankind.
But car producers should recognise that they need to make that switch and fast, or they will die. Because ICE cars will become dinosaurs as soon as the majority of the people will see that EV's are better and cheaper than ICE cars, and that ICE cars will loose their second hand value fast after 2025 or so. As @MelindaV indicates in other words.
In the EU and China - in fact in the whole world except for the US - ICE cars will be phased out of production because of the burden they put on the environment and the living climate in cities.
Car producers who don't realise that cars need to become green, are committing suicide.


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## Badback (Apr 7, 2016)

Year 2025, Exxon/Mobile just released its new home gasoline refining appliance, the Gas-o-matic 9000, to satisfy the niche demand for gasoline since the complete demise if fueling stations last year. Said to be about the size of a standard refrigerator, it uses about the same amount of electricity as would propel an EV 10 times the distance as the produced gasoline. Crude oil to feed the 9000 can be ordered from Amazon in gallon containers. Please dispose of the residue responsibly.


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## TrevP (Oct 20, 2015)

@Paul Spiers Tesla is in "anti-sell" model with the Model 3. Witness all the pushing going on with Model S with Autopilot at the 3rd quarter and Supercharging in the last quarter.

If there is one thing that Tesla understands is the "Osborne Effect" (Google it). When they're ready to talk about Model 3 everyone will know it. We're only some 3 months from the final reveal and I expect to hear maybe a couple of things leak but not much until then.

Tesla has a solid handle on Model 3 secrecy  Everything we know so far is from Elon himself.

The program is moving along at a fast clip so we should start seeing production candidates driving around Palo Alto soon if production is indeed going to start in July/August.

Patience will be rewarded, that I can promise


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## MichelT3 (Nov 16, 2016)

@Badback , I have a different piece of Futurology for you:

Year 2025, Tesla just released its new home gasoline (synthetic carbon fuel) refining appliance, the Gas-o-matic 9000, to satisfy the niche demand for gasoline for the last fossil cars with a specialised use and especially for the by now much appreciated classic cars, since the complete demise if fueling stations last year. Said to be about the size of a standard refrigerator, it uses about the same amount of electricity as would propel an EV 10 times the distance as the produced gasoline. Luckily crude oil to feed the 9000 is not necessary, because it synthesises the carbon fuel from water and CO2 out of the air. This way the carbon fuel is also sustainable and without residue, which was the whole point of the revolutionary transition that took place the past 10 years. This solution to synthesise carbon fuel at home was quite simple, it needed just a small upgrade and some automated production control for the method which was already used in occupied Europe during World War 2. The demand is huge, as a result of the sudden and complete collapse of all oil companies in 2024. Tesla markets the system at a loss, gaining a huge PR benefit among the last owners of fossil cars.


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## chopr147 (May 23, 2016)

Having a model S leaves me wanting more and more info on Tesla and the Model 3. I had figured on waiting for the model 3 but took a test drive and well...................
I have read several times now how GM has beaten Tesla to the punch, Tesla killers, 1st mass market EV etc.............Any informed person knows this to be false. Yes the Bolt IS the 1st mass market EV but not a Model 3 competitor. More like Nissan Leaf competition. Sure it looks funky and all that but the Bolt appears to be a really well made car by GM. Kudos!!
On another note a friend of mine just told me he cancelled his Model 3 reservation and purchased a Chevy Malibu hybrid. I was like Damn! Why? Well, he needed a car now.  And I guess he's just not as obsessed as I am.  I'm down to 1 friend with a model 3 reservation


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## Michael Russo (Oct 15, 2016)

chopr147 said:


> I'm down to 1 friend with a model 3 reservation


I beg to differ, @chopr147 , you've got all of us here at M3OC!!


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## pjfw8 (Apr 28, 2016)

Michael Russo said:


> I beg to differ, @chopr147 , you've got all of us here at M3OC!!


I continue to be impressed by our intelligence


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## chopr147 (May 23, 2016)

Michael Russo said:


> I beg to differ, @chopr147 , you've got all of us here at M3OC!!


And thank goodness for that! My wife does not want to hear my opinion on the glass roof, Autopilot, front grill or no grill or anything else that has to do with the model 3 or Tesla in general.


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## Michael Russo (Oct 15, 2016)

chopr147 said:


> And thank goodness for that! My wife does not want to hear my opinion on the glass roof, Autopilot, front grill or no grill or anything else that has to do with the model 3 or Tesla in general.


And you have a Model S? Odd... Maybe she is trying to surprise you and is waiting for the time you get to really configure the car then she'll tell ya she wishes to have the Model ≡ for her... and to her specs!


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## Dan Detweiler (Apr 8, 2016)

Nahhhh....you have a whole bunch of friends here that are all reservation holders! 

Dan


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## Jaspal (Apr 12, 2016)

MichelT3 said:


> I don't know whether I'm laughing my head off when Tavel calls the Bolt a 'mini Model S', or cry in desperation because he said
> "The focus, at least from his side of things, was never on being green",
> making it clear that he and GM still haven't understood why the transition to EV's is essential!
> It's rather pathetic actually.
> ...


I mean at least we know the reveal will happen before July (production begins). My guess would be the reveal might happen again around that march date. And I agree with you with the whole thing about the hype of these "competitor" cars to settle down. No company is close to achieving sustainable and affordable transport other than Tesla Motors.


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## MichelT3 (Nov 16, 2016)

chopr147 said:


> cancelled his Model 3 reservation and purchased a Chevy Malibu hybrid. I was like Damn! Why? Well, he needed a car now


I just can't get my mind around it why people just need to buy a new car for just a few years. If the life of your old car can't be prolonged, why not buy another previously owned / second hand car, for those one or two years? That is certainly cheaper and environmentally better.


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## Paul Spiers (Apr 11, 2016)

I would rather buy a second hand Prius or a Leaf if I were desperate for a car, rather than cancel my Model 3 order. I am not just buying what may (definitely will be) be the best car in its class or any for that matter. I am buying into the mission. Specifically, as Elon has set his mind to, accelerate the shift to sustainable transportation and energy, I want to be part of that movement. So for me at least, i am willing to wait, a year, maybe two or however long it takes for my Model 3 to be built.


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## MichelT3 (Nov 16, 2016)

I would say, better buy the best buy second hand with some residual value after 2 years (which could be a Prius or Leaf if the range suffices for you) and save as much as possible for your Model 3. Cancelling Model 3 is out of the question for me.
Core of my comment is that I would never buy a new car for just a few years.


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## MichelT3 (Nov 16, 2016)

MichelT3 said:


> @Badback , I have a different piece of Futurology for you:
> 
> Year 2025, Tesla just released its new home gasoline (synthetic carbon fuel) refining appliance, the Gas-o-matic 9000, to satisfy the niche demand for gasoline for the last fossil cars with a specialised use and especially for the by now much appreciated classic cars, since the complete demise if fueling stations last year. Said to be about the size of a standard refrigerator, it uses about the same amount of electricity as would propel an EV 10 times the distance as the produced gasoline. Luckily crude oil to feed the 9000 is not necessary, because it synthesises the carbon fuel from water and CO2 out of the air. This way the carbon fuel is also sustainable and without residue, which was the whole point of the revolutionary transition that took place the past 10 years. This solution to synthesise carbon fuel at home was quite simple, it needed just a small upgrade and some automated production control for the method which was already used in occupied Europe during World War 2. The demand is huge, as a result of the sudden and complete collapse of all oil companies in 2024. Tesla markets the system at a loss, gaining a huge PR benefit among the last owners of fossil cars.


Some reactions think this funny, but I actually think something like this could happen in the forseable future. Not in 2025 of course - which was Badback's date - possibly in 2030. Maybe the scale will be a bit bigger, but the possibility of sythetic carbon fuel is real, as soon as there is abundant cheap renewable energy. Synthetic carbon fuel - or hydrogen - could be a means to buffer differences between electricity production and consumption.
Carbon fuels being an efficiënt means to store energy. In synthetic form this could be a solution for road freight transport, trains and ships which currently run on diesel/crude. Maybe even for airplanes and classic cars and transport, motor saws and mowers, private yachts, etc. 
Synthetic fuel can be in liquid and gaseous form. Investments in infrastructure being low, because that exists already.


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## Badback (Apr 7, 2016)

Yes, I am overwhelmed by our genius! Top that one.


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## Badback (Apr 7, 2016)

chopr147 said:


> And thank goodness for that! My wife does not want to hear my opinion on the glass roof, Autopilot, front grill or no grill or anything else that has to do with the model 3 or Tesla in general.


Time for a new wife.


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## Paul Spiers (Apr 11, 2016)

Badback said:


> Time for a new wife.


That would probably cost more than a new Tesla, not a sound investment plan


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## chopr147 (May 23, 2016)

Uhhhhh, too expensive and way too much work  She will come around


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## teslaliving (Apr 2, 2016)

Still a car you can't buy most places... Compliance car until it's offered everywhere.

I wonder how long it will take before the 3 is offered more places than the Bolt?


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## Michael Russo (Oct 15, 2016)

teslaliving said:


> Still a car you can't buy most places... Compliance car until it's offered everywhere.
> 
> I wonder how long it will take before the 3 is offered more places than the Bolt?


Less than a year


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## Mr. Watts (Apr 26, 2016)

I'm thinking Tesla will have to step up the range for the base Model 3. If the Bolt is coming in at 238 EPA for its base model I'm hoping it will spark a Model 3 bump up as well.


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## Mr. Watts (Apr 26, 2016)

teslaliving said:


> Still a car you can't buy most places... Compliance car until it's offered everywhere.
> 
> I wonder how long it will take before the 3 is offered more places than the Bolt?


Depends on how fast Chevy can ramp up. Knowing the Model 3 might be releasing at the end of the year, it would be in their best interest to have a nation wide launch before then to give some non reservation holders another option.

Also if the tax credit situation isn't favorable for Model 3 reservation holders, that might drive more people to get the Bolt. The ball is in Chevy's court


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## InElonWeTrust (Jan 4, 2017)

chopr147 said:


> Having a model S leaves me wanting more and more info on Tesla and the Model 3. I had figured on waiting for the model 3 but took a test drive and well...................
> I have read several times now how GM has beaten Tesla to the punch, Tesla killers, 1st mass market EV etc.............Any informed person knows this to be false. Yes the Bolt IS the 1st mass market EV but not a Model 3 competitor. More like Nissan Leaf competition. Sure it looks funky and all that but the Bolt appears to be a really well made car by GM. Kudos!!
> On another note a friend of mine just told me he cancelled his Model 3 reservation and purchased a Chevy Malibu hybrid. I was like Damn! Why? Well, he needed a car now.  And I guess he's just not as obsessed as I am.  I'm down to 1 friend with a model 3 reservation


Make that two friends. Any friend of the Model 3 is a friend of mine. . In all honesty though the Bolt was pretty disappointing when I sat in it at the LA Auto Show. I don't like the style and it felt very cramped and cheaply made. Either way, I hope they sell because I'll happily cheer on an EV over an ICE car any day. But, as you said it is no way AT ALL a Model 3 competitor.


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## MichelT3 (Nov 16, 2016)

Mr. Watts said:


> Depends on how fast Chevy can ramp up. Knowing the Model 3 might be releasing at the end of the year, it would be in their best interest to have a nation wide launch before then to give some non reservation holders another option.
> 
> Also if the tax credit situation isn't favorable for Model 3 reservation holders, that might drive more people to get the Bolt. The ball is in Chevy's court


Sorry, but I disagree. 
Given the number of reservations from the first months after the first reveal alone, Tesla doesn't need to do much else than produce and deliver on time. Which is a huge task in itself, realising a huge production increases and filling production till the end of 2018. All extra reservations this year after the next reveal and after a succesful launch in the fall, will assure sold production well into 2020, since I expect at least 1 million by then.
No need for Tesla to kick any ball. 
Let GM first try and sell their own much simpler version of an EV. Aquire an equally good auto drive system somewhere and implement it. Work very, very hard in producing a car which is as good as the Model 3 and can be sold in the same numbers. And build a charging and service network that can and will cope. GM is way, way behind.


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## Michael Russo (Oct 15, 2016)

Mr. Watts said:


> (...)
> Also if the tax credit situation isn't favorable for Model 3 reservation holders, that might drive more people to get the Bolt. The ball is in Chevy's court


I think it has been established, without much doubt left, that this _hardly a race_... (or a tennis match? ) GM launched the Bolt as a _compliance_ car with moderate to low sales projections (either because they can't - or don't want - to produce more faster...?). Good luck to them, yet I doubt there is a _significant_ portion of current Model ≡ reservation holders who are standing on the fence & _seriously_ considering the Bolt as alternative, with or without tax credit, because the cars are so _different_! Having said that, I concur with you, @Mr. Watts , that the base Model ≡ may very well be launched with a min. (EPA) range of 240-250 miles... just to make a statement! 


MichelT3 said:


> Sorry, but I disagree. Given the number of reservations from the first months after the first reveal alone, Tesla doesn't need to do much else than produce and deliver on time. (...) No need for Tesla to kick any ball.
> Let GM first try & sell their own much simpler version of an EV. (...) Work very, very hard in producing a car which is as good as the Model 3 and can be sold in the same numbers. And build a charging and service network that can and will cope. GM is way, way behind.


Agree, @MichelT3 . The key for T≡SLA remains, as you say, launch Model ≡ on time and produce as much as possible - _yet do it right! _- before YE17... Then, while Bolt just won the NA 2016 Car of the Year award, 2017 is definitely going to be... 
The _*yearofthemodel≡*_!!


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## Dan Detweiler (Apr 8, 2016)

I still say that to compare the Bolt to the Model 3 is the same as comparing a Ferrari to a Honda Civic. Hey, they both burn gas right? They both get about 400 miles of range to a tank right? Not even in the same class...not even close. Same with the Bolt vs. Model 3.

Dan


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## garsh (Apr 4, 2016)

Michael Russo said:


> GM launched the Bolt as a _compliance_ car with moderate to low sales projections (either because they can't - or don't want - to produce more faster...?)


If Chevy ends up only selling the Bolt in CARB states, then I'll agree that it's a compliance car. But if they end up selling it nationwide, then by definition it no longer is.

As for the numbers being produced, I think they're just being realistic about how many they're going to be able to sell. Remember, it's basically a $40,000 Honda Fit that can't be used for long road trips. I think they're correct in not being able to sell a whole lot of them. Last I researched it, it looks like they're planning to sell in the same numbers as the Volt, which is a reasonable expectation.


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## Michael Russo (Oct 15, 2016)

garsh said:


> If Chevy ends up only selling the Bolt in CARB states, then I'll agree that it's a compliance car. But if they end up selling it nationwide, then by definition it no longer is.
> 
> As for the numbers being produced, I think they're just being realistic about how many they're going to be able to sell. Remember, it's basically a $40,000 Honda Fit that can't be used for long road trips. I think they're correct in not being able to sell a whole lot of them. Last I researched it, it looks like they're planning to sell in the same numbers as the Volt, which is a reasonable expectation.


@garsh , on your first paragraph, point taken. It's just that we don't really see their true commitment which certainly their relative size _could_ permit...
As for sales projections, you are correct (30-40k+, no?) though this number, while maybe reasonable, is hardly going be as _disruptive_ as Model ≡ is going to be, with 10-15 times the annual sales! If they ever get serious, GM can & should do better than that!
'A $40,000 Honda Fit that can't be used for long road trips.'?! Something wrong with the value proposition?


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## chopr147 (May 23, 2016)

Mr. Watts said:


> I'm thinking Tesla will have to step up the range for the base Model 3. If the Bolt is coming in at 238 EPA for its base model I'm hoping it will spark a Model 3 bump up as well.


I'm thinking once the new batteries are produced and in an actual Model 3 the rated mileage will be announced higher than 215. Just a hunch but we keep hearing how the new battery is denser and larger


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## Guy Weathersby (Jun 22, 2016)

Dan Detweiler said:


> I still say that to compare the Bolt to the Model 3 is the same as comparing a Ferrari to a Honda Civic. Hey, they both burn gas right? They both get about 400 miles of range to a tank right? Not even in the same class...not even close. Same with the Bolt vs. Model 3.
> 
> Dan


Except that in this case the Ferrari and the Civic both cost the same.


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## Dan Detweiler (Apr 8, 2016)

Guy Weathersby said:


> Except that in this case the Ferrari and the Civic both cost the same.


Perhaps, but still two completely different cars.


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## Jayc (May 19, 2016)

chopr147 said:


> I'm thinking once the new batteries are produced and in an actual Model 3 the rated mileage will be announced higher than 215. Just a hunch but we keep hearing how the new battery is denser and larger


In addition to the widely discussed improvements to battery density and cost, in the 2170 cells I am really hoping they manage to also improve upon reliability and impact/fire safety although some of it would be related to battery pack architecture which should also undergo improvements.


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## MichelT3 (Nov 16, 2016)

Another viewpoint: I think that the EU-version Opel Ampera-E of the Bolt will do better, because distances in European city agglomerations like the German Ruhrgebiet and the Dutch Randstad, as well as Greater London, Paris, Berlin, etc. are less than in the US. So when solely used as a daily commuter the Ampera-E could become some success. 
Of course it stays incomparable to the Model 3.


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## Michael Russo (Oct 15, 2016)

Straight from Mary Barra's mouth, out of the Motown's Auto Show... a bit of of excitement about the Bolt 'technology platform' (how many do they plan to build again, for starters?...) on which they will design a 'huge' numbers of other unannounced vehicles... Wow! Notice how the interview then very quickly veers to the great opportunities provided by low gas prices for growth of SUVs, the Escalade with great functionality' ... (sic) & GMC... 

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/819542070297817089


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## MichelT3 (Nov 16, 2016)

Really ... _"it's an electric vehicle, *BUT* it's a great vehicle"_ ... how surprising!


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## Topher (May 11, 2016)

Mr. Watts said:


> Also if the tax credit situation isn't favorable for Model 3 reservation holders, that might drive more people to get the Bolt.


As it stands, far more people will get the tax credit on the Model 3 than the Bolt. Possibly ten times more.

I think the Bolt would make a hard choice if it was priced at say (a real) $8-10,000 less than the Model 3.

Thank you kindly.


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## Michael Russo (Oct 15, 2016)

Topher said:


> As it stands, far more people will get the tax credit on the Model 3 than the Bolt. Possibly ten times more.
> 
> I think the Bolt would make a hard choice if it was priced at say (a real) $8-10,000 less than the Model 3.
> 
> Thank you kindly.


I agree on your 1st paragraph, @Topher . 
On the 2nd, I'd like to propose a _higher_ price differential, probably more ~$15k. For quite a few of us already (cf. separate thread started last night by @InElonWeTrust), anyways, it would not be an option, whatever... Yet the car market is big...


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## Dan Detweiler (Apr 8, 2016)

In my opinion, in order to initiate wide spread adoption of EVs manufacturers have to start looking at making compelling cars that people will choose over their ICE counterparts WITHOUT any tax benefits. Tesla seems to be the only manufacturer that is focused on doing this. If you take away the tax credit the Bolt doesn't make sense to me. You could argue that it doesn't make sense WITH the tax credit. The Model 3 on the other hand blows away (or seems to based on early information) its competition whether I get $7500 in tax credits, $1500 in tax credits or nothing at all.

Dan


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## Michael Russo (Oct 15, 2016)

Dan Detweiler said:


> (...)You could argue that it doesn't make sense WITH the tax credit. (...)
> Dan


Dan, obviously some people will have thought so (those who've already ordered... ) yet, just as certainly, most of us here don't seem to think so either... different needs, different expectations, _different feel_ for things..!


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## InElonWeTrust (Jan 4, 2017)

Dan Detweiler said:


> In my opinion, in order to initiate wide spread adoption of EVs manufacturers have to start looking at making compelling cars that people will choose over their ICE counterparts WITHOUT any tax benefits. Tesla seems to be the only manufacturer that is focused on doing this. If you take away the tax credit the Bolt doesn't make sense to me. You could argue that it doesn't make sense WITH the tax credit. The Model 3 on the other hand blows away (or seems to based on early information) its competition whether I get $7500 in tax credits, $1500 in tax credits or nothing at all.
> 
> Dan


Agree, IMO the Model 3 can easily sell at $35,000 as an ICE whereas the Bolt never could. That would be a $15,000 at most price tag.


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## Topher (May 11, 2016)

Michael Russo said:


> For quite a few of us already


Those being people who can afford $35,000 or more. A $25,000 Bolt would be a good option for people who can't.

Thank you kindly.


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## Michael Russo (Oct 15, 2016)

Topher said:


> Those being people who can afford $35,000 or more. A $25,000 Bolt would be a good option for people who can't.
> 
> Thank you kindly.


Afraid I did not appreciate it was €25k. After incentives & bare to the bone then?


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## MichelT3 (Nov 16, 2016)

Michael Russo said:


> Afraid I did not appreciate it was €25k. After incentives & bare to the bone then?


No, @Topher is just providing wrong information.
Opel Ampera-E is expected from € 39000. Almost 56 % more.
Can be bought in the Spring in The Netherlands as second country in Europe. First country (now) is Norway, for a similar price.
This is about the same as or even higher than a base Model 3.


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## MelindaV (Apr 2, 2016)

MichelT3 said:


> No, @Topher is just providing wrong information.
> Opel Ampera-E is expected from € 39000. Almost 56 % more.
> Can be bought in the Spring in The Netherlands as second country in Europe. First country (now) is Norway, for a similar price.
> This is about the same as or even higher than a base Model 3.


No, not misinformation, he was giving a price 'the market' could accept the Bolt at.


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## Michael Russo (Oct 15, 2016)

MelindaV said:


> No, not misinformation, he was giving a price 'the market' could accept the Bolt at.


Yes, you are right, @MelindaV ... And then I still stand by the premise that it would only become a real disruptive yet appealing option at 20 grand...
Though NOT, to @Topher 's point, to those of us who can afford $35k+!!


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## MichelT3 (Nov 16, 2016)

MelindaV said:


> No, not misinformation, he was giving a price 'the market' could accept the Bolt at.


Which is pure speculation and futile, because the Bolt / Ampera-E in reality is much more expensive.


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## Topher (May 11, 2016)

Michael Russo said:


> Afraid I did not appreciate it was €25k. After incentives & bare to the bone then?


No, my point was without incentives.

Thank you kindly.


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## Topher (May 11, 2016)

Ok. fine. I will try to avoid the subjunctive voice from now on, here.

Thank you kindly.


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## MichelT3 (Nov 16, 2016)

Excuse me since I misunderstood in #135. English is not my native language. 
I understood that € 25,000 was put forward as the actual base price of a Bolt, as an alternative for a € 35,000 base Model 3.
But if I read, and read that sentence again, I now see that it was meant as a supposition.


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## Lyonel (Apr 4, 2016)

Does the Bolt really lose $9,000 on every sale? The Sonic that is made on the same production line, starts at $15,000, that's $22,000 less than the starting price of the Bolt. I would think the Bolt should break-even or make a small profit.


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## Steve C (Sep 28, 2016)

Lyonel said:


> Does the Bolt really lose $9,000 on every sale? The Sonic that is made on the same production line, starts at $15,000, that's $22,000 less than the starting price of the Bolt. I would think the Bolt should break-even or make a small profit.


That's the word....

It makes more financial sense for GM to deliver the vehicles in those states where it can receive ZEV credits to compensate for its gas-guzzling vehicles. As we previously reported, reports suggest that GM will lose ~$9,000 for every Chevy Bolt EV it sells before ZEV credit under its current pricing model.
After meeting with GM's CFO, a JP Morgan analyst even said that "the Bolt EV is not for profit but to subsidize GM's gas-guzzling car business"

(From Electrek.co)


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## Michael Russo (Oct 15, 2016)

This article was ok and I read it objectively until the end yet when I got to the last paragraph which left me with one simple question, why did he not place a reservation after test riding in Model ≡ on 3/31? In which case he would not have to ask himself whether he'd be happy with the screamingly practical Bolt for 4 years... He'd get his Model ≡ within the year... 
http://www.forbes.com/sites/brookec...l-3-vs-chevy-bolt-ev-test-ride-vs-test-drive/


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## Michael Russo (Oct 15, 2016)

Can't help but keep being struck by how ridiculous certain article titles (generally also their content...!) can be... 
I mean, come on, _how relevant is it _to compare Bolt sales against those of Model S and X (which cost 4 times that much!!)?!
Besides the author, while admitting that T≡SLA sales in January 2017 will 'handsomely beat' Jan.16, neglects to refer to the 2250 units sold last month...
And all that inspired by whom? Good ol' Anton from SeekingAlpha...!! 
http://smartstocknews.com/77555-gen...sla-in-january-who-will-take-the-sales-crown/


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## garsh (Apr 4, 2016)

Michael Russo said:


> I mean, come on, _how relevant is it _to compare Bolt sales against those of Model S and X (which cost 4 times that much!!)?!


You need to stop getting your news from these random websites with no reputation, no author attribution, and articles that do little beyond regurgitating another article. You'll stay saner that way. 

But, just because I love to play devil's advocate...

Tesla vehicles have had higher sales than all other electric cars up until this point, _despite_ costing 4-5 times as much. So I really would like to see evidence that the Bolt can change this historical trend. It is a much better electric car than anything else currently available (ignoring Teslas), and it's available for not much more (ignoring Teslas). These should be selling like crazy.

Remember, not everybody has heard of Tesla (it's incredible, I know). Not everybody trusts Tesla (new, small company). But GM is a company that the public knows will never die (the government won't let it), they make good cars, and they're a known quantity.

The article mentions Chevy offering discount rates on the Bolt. I've seen no evidence of this. I assume the article is just plain wrong.


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## MelindaV (Apr 2, 2016)

so I've mentioned before i work in Portland. The largest chevy dealer in the city center is near my office and last Friday access to my freeway onramp was closed (because it is also one of the bridges that cross the river between the east side and downtown - and the protest crowd was encroaching on the bridges) SO... I took the surface street that goes past this dealership toward the next freeway access ramp. With everything gridlocked, I ended up on the block they are at for some time and noticed the cars in their showroom (no outside lot) were two corvettes, a Malibu, a Camaro and a Sonic. Nothing that resembled an EV. And they do have inventory of Spark EVs, Volts and Bolts listed on their website. 
Most of the other dealerships are in the outskirts of the city or suburbs, so haven't been by any of them since the Bolts started to arrive, but if this one is any indication, they are not getting a front row seat.


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## Dan Detweiler (Apr 8, 2016)

MelindaV said:


> so I've mentioned before i work in Portland. The largest chevy dealer in the city center is near my office and last Friday access to my freeway onramp was closed (because it is also one of the bridges that cross the river between the east side and downtown - and the protest crowd was encroaching on the bridges) SO... I took the surface street that goes past this dealership toward the next freeway access ramp. With everything gridlocked, I ended up on the block they are at for some time and noticed the cars in their showroom (no outside lot) were two corvettes, a Malibu, a Camaro and a Sonic. Nothing that resembled an EV. And they do have inventory of Spark EVs, Volts and Bolts listed on their website.
> Most of the other dealerships are in the outskirts of the city or suburbs, so haven't been by any of them since the Bolts started to arrive, but if this one is any indication, they are not getting a front row seat.


Still more evidence that these are just compliance cars. It's a shame.


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## MelindaV (Apr 2, 2016)

garsh said:


> The article mentions Chevy offering discount rates on the Bolt. I've seen no evidence of this. I assume the article is just plain wrong.


would that be for fleet purchases? I had heard that just before they were released to dealers at the end of the year, that for companies/cities looking for fleets, they would be offering enticing deals. Maybe thats where they think their market share for the Bolt will be, more than to individuals. Would make sense for a long range battery with no viable long distance charging.


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## TrevP (Oct 20, 2015)

Mr. Watts said:


> I'm thinking Tesla will have to step up the range for the base Model 3. If the Bolt is coming in at 238 EPA for its base model I'm hoping it will spark a Model 3 bump up as well.


I know a lot of people are seeing this as a range competition between the Bolt and the Model 3 but to me the Model 3 has so much more going for it other than a possible small range deficit. Keep in mind, Elon said "215 miles, we hope to exceed it". I think he's purposefully sandbagging the media and reservation holders on purpose so they can reveal the real range that will exceed our expectations. In any case even if it is only 220 miles in base form you'll still be able to buy a bigger battery, you can't do that on the Bolt.


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## Michael Russo (Oct 15, 2016)

MelindaV said:


> would that be for fleet purchases? I had heard that just before they were released to dealers at the end of the year, that for companies/cities looking for fleets, they would be offering enticing deals. (...)


Maybe yet, in any case, the article, accurate or not, mentions what I interpreted as very limited discounts...
'However given _the tight discount rates _that General Motors is offering on the Bolt right now'...
Though, to your point, @MelindaV , where are the cars on the lot that will ensure that January US record...?  I think @garsh is right, the article is worthless...


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## garsh (Apr 4, 2016)

Oh, I missed the "tight" modifier. Sorry.


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## Michael Russo (Oct 15, 2016)

garsh said:


> Oh, I missed the "tight" modifier. Sorry.


No issues, @garsh , you are still correct on the value (or lack thereof !) of the article!


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## MichelT3 (Nov 16, 2016)

It's good if the Bolt / Ampera-E becomes a success. It's a next step forward for traditional people who dare to drive electric, for whatever reason. 
Tesla is for those who really look towards the future and want to be in the forefront not only on BEV, but also on range, fast charging infrastructure, autonomous driving, over air updates, in house production, sales and service, etc. Totally incomparable qualities. 
Making the Bolt to have a much worse price-quality value.


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## Guy Weathersby (Jun 22, 2016)

MichelT3 said:


> It's good if the Bolt / Ampera-E becomes a success


My problem is considering the low reported production rate and the fact that the car is supposedly designed to lose money, I have no idea how one would define success. They will probably sell every car that they make, but will they consider that a success?


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## Dan Detweiler (Apr 8, 2016)

Guy Weathersby said:


> My problem is considering the low reported production rate and the fact that the car is supposedly designed to lose money, I have no idea how one would define success. They will probably sell every car that they make, but will they consider that a success?


I am sure that if that happens they will consider it a success. It will have served its purpose at least in their eyes.

Dan


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## Michael Russo (Oct 15, 2016)

Guy Weathersby said:


> (...) I have no idea how one would define success. They will probably sell every car that they make, but will they consider that a success?





Dan Detweiler said:


> I am sure that if that happens they will consider it a success. It will have served its purpose at least in their eyes.
> Dan


To my knowledge, the car industry typically refers to a 'high volume platform', which one could argue is another way to call success - although, with my background, I'd rather expect a 'high margin' platform!

Since Ms. Barra has already touted derivative models on the same platform as the Bolt, when they reach that 100k level across these, and preferably making (some...) money, no one would argue they've done well...


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## garsh (Apr 4, 2016)

Guy Weathersby said:


> My problem is considering the low reported production rate and the fact that the car is supposedly designed to lose money, I have no idea how one would define success.


The "low production rate" matches the sales rate of the Volt. I think this is actually a very reasonable forecast on Chevy's part. Sure, we'd like to see them sell hundreds of thousands of these per year, but we need to be realistic. It's not nearly as compelling as a Model 3.

As far as "designed to lose money", we'll know before long whether those reports are true. If the Bolt is only ever offered for sale in CARB states, then it's likely true. Selling in CARB states to obtain credits would be the only way to make the monetary losses palatable. BUT, if they actually do make it available nationwide, then that's a very good indication that those reports were not true.


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## MichelT3 (Nov 16, 2016)

I don't care whether GM considers the Bolt / Ampera-E a success. For me it is, if it sells in large quantities. For whatever reason. Any new car that isn't an ICE, which is sold in quantaty, is considered a success by me.

In Europe we don't have CARB-regulations (yet), but BEV's get a tax-reduction on the buying price and on the road tax. Those are incentives why BEV's are slowly gaining ground.


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## Badback (Apr 7, 2016)

Begin rant: North American Loss of the Year.

If my goal is to sell $10 bills for $5, I will be wildly successful, for a while anyway.

GM is just demonstrating their inability to make a competitive product. Any global car maker could have thrown together FrankenBolt.

This is just corporate posturing. They think that they are being clever, "let's stick our salty finger in Tesla's eye", when they are just being stupid, as usual. End rant.


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## Bobby Garrity (Jan 22, 2017)

When I first learned of the Chevy Bolt, I was excited. This is because I thought it meant the GM already knew how to build a good electric car. I would never cancel my Model 3 reservation to buy the Bolt, but that's only because the Bolt is ugly. I mentioned in another thread that I only drive sexy cars, and I personally can't stand looking at hatchbacks. However, my skepticism remains, now that we know GM loses $9,000 on each one. I do think of it as a compliance car, but also as an insurance policy for the inevitable end of the ICE (which GM certainly wants to delay). If it wasn't a compliance car, it would be sexy.


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## MichelT3 (Nov 16, 2016)

Ugly and sexy???


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## garsh (Apr 4, 2016)

Bobby Garrity said:


> but also as an insurance policy for the inevitable end of the ICE (which GM certainly wants to delay).


Bingo. GM is "hedging its bets". When consumers at large decide to switch to electrics, GM will be in good position to switch over to producing them.


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## Topher (May 11, 2016)

Bobby Garrity said:


> now that we know GM loses $9,000 on each one.


We don't know that. It was an inference by a financial reporter. Mostly, it doesn't make any sense, where is that $9,000 going that it isn't in a Model 3?

Thank you kindly.


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## MelindaV (Apr 2, 2016)

Topher said:


> We don't know that. It was an inference by a financial reporter. Mostly, it doesn't make any sense, where is that $9,000 going that it isn't in a Model 3?
> 
> Thank you kindly.


a premium for all the components coming from LG maybe?


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## Bobby Garrity (Jan 22, 2017)

Topher said:


> We don't know that. It was an inference by a financial reporter. Mostly, it doesn't make any sense, where is that $9,000 going that it isn't in a Model 3?
> 
> Thank you kindly.


I think it's simple: GM doesn't own a Gigafactory.


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## Topher (May 11, 2016)

Bobby Garrity said:


> I think it's simple: GM doesn't own a Gigafactory.


How does that math work? GM is paying $145 / kWh for batteries from LG-chem. That's $8,700 per Bolt. The gigafactory would need to be making them for -$5.45 / kWh. Tesla is good, but not that good.

Thank you kindly.


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## MelindaV (Apr 2, 2016)

Topher said:


> How does that math work? GM is paying $145 / kWh for batteries from LG-chem. That's $8,700 per Bolt. The gigafactory would need to be making them for -$5.45 / kWh. Tesla is good, but not that good.
> 
> Thank you kindly.


Plus all the other tech GM is getting from LG


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## Todd Harrison (Aug 20, 2016)

With tesla's ground up approach to making the model 3 easy to build they would have the potential to have allot of cost savings vs. GM retrofitting an existing platform that was never intended for this purpose. Also in their rush to get the bolt to market they would have contracted out allot of the work to LG who likely charged a good premium with the leverage they held. If GM continues to hedge their bets retrofitting other platforms they will have difficulty achieving any decent margins. Just my opinion.


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## garsh (Apr 4, 2016)

Bobby Garrity said:


> vs. GM retrofitting an existing platform


The Bolt is an all-new platform. It was just designed to be built on an assembly line where ICE vehicles are also built.


> Also in their rush to get the bolt to market they would have contracted out allot of the work to LG who likely charged a good premium with the leverage they held.


I doubt it. There are lots of companies that can do that sort of work, and I'm sure LG had some competition to win the contract. GM was bragging about their cell costs, and LG was upset that it was disclosed, since LG charged other customers much more.


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## TrevP (Oct 20, 2015)

A local GM dealer close to me just got their first Bolt yesterday. When I get back from vacation I'll see if they still have it and give it a test drive. Ken and I will be reporting from the Toronto Auto show the week of February 17th so we have lots to cover there.


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## TrevP (Oct 20, 2015)

Topher said:


> How does that math work? GM is paying $145 / kWh for batteries from LG-chem. That's $8,700 per Bolt. The gigafactory would need to be making them for -$5.45 / kWh. Tesla is good, but not that good.
> 
> Thank you kindly.


The price reported was just for the cells, not the pack costs included.

Tesla's Model S battery pack (including cells) is below $190/kWh. Model 3 goal is a *minimum* 30% savings on the cells alone so that should put the pack cost at around $7980 assuming a 60kWh pack. I think Tesla will easily exceed that 30% savings goal before 2018. That means the rest of the car's costs goes into better amenities and materials quality than the Bolt.

Let's not fool ourselves, Model 3 will be a very nicely appointed car even in base configuration. When Elon says you won't find a better car @ $35,000 you'd better believe it as I really believe they have their costs in check this time around!


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## Topher (May 11, 2016)

TrevP said:


> That means the rest of the car's costs goes into better amenities and materials quality than the Bolt.


But no room for the Bolt to cost $9,000 (+$2,500) more than the Model 3. Especially just from the Gigafactory. Which is what I was finding hard to believe. There is a conversation going on here.

Thank you kindly.


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## chopr147 (May 23, 2016)

garsh said:


> The article mentions Chevy offering discount rates on the Bolt


One Calif. dealership added a $5000 "market adjustment" to the Bolt. It was publicized so maybe they had to take that off but I have not heard of any discounts. Hell, in NY I can't find one Bolt.


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## chopr147 (May 23, 2016)

Tesla is the one and only reason I drive an EV. Sorry, saving the world was not my intention 
The Bolt would not have moved me to make the leap. The model 3 was the impetus to even looking at an EV. Which then just lit my desire and wallet for the model S. The S is such a superior vehicle to anything I have ever owned. Comparing the Bolt to the 3? ummmmm NO!


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## MichelT3 (Nov 16, 2016)

We need to do everything we can to save the world for my children, for your children, for their children, and for their children's children. Electrifying transport is one of the many means to do that. Whether those who take part in that transformation believe the necessity, or not.  That Tesla is able to produce compelling and technologically far advanced cars, has given this transformation a huge boost. That is what I admire most in Tesla.


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## GDinATL (Jan 16, 2017)

Bobby Garrity said:


> When I first learned of the Chevy Bolt, I was excited. This is because I thought it meant the GM already knew how to build a good electric car. I would never cancel my Model 3 reservation to buy the Bolt, but that's only because the Bolt is ugly. I mentioned in another thread that I only drive sexy cars, and I personally can't stand looking at hatchbacks. However, my skepticism remains, now that we know GM loses $9,000 on each one. I do think of it as a compliance car, but also as an insurance policy for the inevitable end of the ICE (which GM certainly wants to delay). If it wasn't a compliance car, it would be sexy.


The Bolt is an insurance policy for GM. They know eventually EVs are the way forward -- but BIG SUV's make SO MUCH $$$$$


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## GDinATL (Jan 16, 2017)

MelindaV said:


> a premium for all the components coming from LG maybe?


I don't believe they are losing $$$$. Battery costs have come down substantially and there is not much else to the car.....


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## Michael Russo (Oct 15, 2016)

GDinATL said:


> I don't believe they are losing $$$$. Battery costs have come down substantially and there is not much else to the car.....


If they don't lose $$$ (will stop at 3 $, which does not necessarily mean 1 $ sign equals 3 grand...! ) and the car is sooo great, why would only plan to make 30k a year...??? They are a car company, no?


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## garsh (Apr 4, 2016)

Michael Russo said:


> If they don't lose $$$ (will stop at 3 $, which does not necessarily mean 1 $ sign equals 3 grand...! ) and the car is sooo great, why would only plan to make 30k a year...???


Because they don't want to make the same mistake they made with the Volt. They built too many to start. They had to idle the assembly line. They had to offer extra incentives for a while to actually sell what they had already built. Many people just don't trust electric cars yet, so they don't sell well. They had a Prius-killer on their hands, but they advertised it as an "electric car with a range extender" instead, and the public was confused by the message.


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## Michael Russo (Oct 15, 2016)

garsh said:


> (...) Many people just don't trust electric cars yet, so they don't sell well. (...)


Though it certainly would appear, @garsh , that, judging by the number of Model ≡ reservations, that that trust is higher if you make the offering _more appealing_...


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## pjfw8 (Apr 28, 2016)

Michael Russo said:


> If they don't lose $$$ (will stop at 3 $, which does not necessarily mean 1 $ sign equals 3 grand...! ) and the car is sooo great, why would only plan to make 30k a year...??? They are a car company, no?


 I don't know if GM is losing money or not. Clearly it is politically advantageous for GM to claim they are losing money. This allows them to pressure the administration. By focusing on compliance states they underline their opposition to any electric car mandate and any electric vehicle incentives unless they are provided directly to the manufacture. Ford and GM tell the administration that nobody really wants to buy electric vehicles.


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## Dan Detweiler (Apr 8, 2016)

pjfw8 said:


> I don't know if GM is losing money or not. Clearly it is politically advantageous for GM to claim they are losing money. This allows them to pressure the administration. By focusing on compliance states they underline their opposition to any electric car mandate and any electric vehicle incentives unless they are provided directly to the manufacture. Ford and GM tell the administration that nobody really wants to buy electric vehicles.


Well, there are 400,000+ Model 3 reservations that sort of prove the "lack of interest in EVs" argument to be bogus.

Dan


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## Michael Russo (Oct 15, 2016)

Dan Detweiler said:


> Well, there are 400,000+ Model 3 reservations that sort of prove the "lack of interest in EVs" argument to be bogus.
> 
> Dan


Totally agree with you, Dan... (cf. #183)
Great minds think alike?


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## pjfw8 (Apr 28, 2016)

Dan Detweiler said:


> Well, there are 400,000+ Model 3 reservations that sort of prove the "lack of interest in EVs" argument to be bogus.
> 
> Dan


 Yet the American auto makers restrict production and don't promote Evs or charging infrastructure. Thier only comments are negative.


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## Michael Russo (Oct 15, 2016)

pjfw8 said:


> Yet the American auto makers restrict production and don't promote Evs or charging infrastructure. Thier only comments are negative.


Of course they would be... 'cause they don't understand the extent of the rEVolution underway, which they view as against their current (shortsighted) interests... To be successful longer term, you've got to properly assess trends and resulting underlying demand... _Then_ make your offering _*attractive enough*_ to appeal to that demand...  
Pretty much, up to now, only T≡SLA seems to have gotten that, hence the formidable response to the Model ≡ reveal, in addition to a cumulative >170k Model S and X sold todate...!


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## Steve C (Sep 28, 2016)

Michael Russo said:


> Of course they would be... 'cause they don't understand the extent of the rEVolution underway, which they view as against their current (shortsighted) interests... To be successful longer term, you've got to properly assess trends and resulting underlying demand... _Then_ make your offering _*attractive enough*_ to appeal to that demand...
> Pretty much, up to now, only T≡SLA seems to have gotten that, hence the formidable response to the Model ≡ reveal, in addition to a cumulative >170k Model S and X sold todate...!


I think they are quite aware of the competition and are scared to death. They are doing everything they can to slow it down.
Look at all of the car manufactures buying these car sharing startups and autonomous veh startups. They can see the shift coming and coming quick.


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## garsh (Apr 4, 2016)

Dan Detweiler said:


> Well, there are 400,000+ Model 3 reservations that sort of prove the "lack of interest in EVs" argument to be bogus.


There were 77 million new cars sold last year. Don't fool yourself into thinking that EVs are already mainstream. The number of people who know about EVs and want one are growing, thanks to Tesla and the Model 3, but 400,000 is just a (very, very good) start.


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## Michael Russo (Oct 15, 2016)

garsh said:


> There were 77 million new cars sold last year. Don't fool yourself into thinking that EVs are already mainstream. The number of people who know about EVs and want one are growing, thanks to Tesla and the Model 3, but 400,000 is just a (very, very good) start.


Of course, dear @garsh , you are right!
Yet, remember where we started 9 posts ago on this thread... I was challenging GM's lilliputian step with their Bolt production plan... 
And wait until Model Y is revealed... I know quite a few here who will raise their antennas at this mere mention!!


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## garsh (Apr 4, 2016)

Michael Russo said:


> I was challenging GM's lilliputian step with their Bolt production plan...


Keep some perspective. GM is doing pretty well in the EV space for a traditional car manufacturer.

If GM manages to sell 30,000 Bolts per year, that *could* make it the best-selling EV of 2017. That would be more sold that Tesla sold of the Model S last year. It would still be a great success - just not a Model-3-level success.


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## Michael Russo (Oct 15, 2016)

garsh said:


> (...)
> If GM manages to sell 30,000 Bolts per year, that *could* make it the best-selling EV of 2017. (...) It would still be a great success - just not a Model-3-level success.


@garsh , you're obviously a _much kinder man_ than I am...  I would be hard pressed to call it a 'success', _let alone great_, for one of the world's largest carmakers, considering Opel/Vauxhall in Europe and their presence in China with Buick... to only sell 30k Bolt/ Ampera-e/year, after getting 2016 NA Car of the Year award and all this airtime...   

OMG...!! I just wrote this and... check this out... 'best GM product in decades!' ... from a Model S owner...?!
So, 30k cars?? I must be missing something...


----------



## Dan Detweiler (Apr 8, 2016)

With a combination of these really being compliance cars for GM and the thought that they really don't want to sell a whole lot of them since they are in direct competition with their bread and butter ICE cars, I would be very surprised if the Bolt outsells the Volt this year. I think the inability for the Bolt to be used outside of the immediate local area with any ease is going to bite them in relation to the Volt which is 1) a proven platform and 2) a vehicle an owner can use for any traveling purpose they wish. I think they will probably sell around 50,000 cars between the two models. Now, having said that, those numbers could very well be considered a success by GM execs if it provided the credits wanted towards their fleet mileage numbers.

Dan


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## GDinATL (Jan 16, 2017)

TrevP said:


> The price reported was just for the cells, not the pack costs included.
> 
> Tesla's Model S battery pack (including cells) is below $190/kWh. Model 3 goal is a *minimum* 30% savings on the cells alone so that should put the pack cost at around $7980 assuming a 60kWh pack. I think Tesla will easily exceed that 30% savings goal before 2018. That means the rest of the car's costs goes into better amenities and materials quality than the Bolt.
> 
> Let's not fool ourselves, Model 3 will be a very nicely appointed car even in base configuration. When Elon says you won't find a better car @ $35,000 you'd better believe it as I really believe they have their costs in check this time around!


I hope you are right!


----------



## Mark C (Aug 26, 2016)

It's also worth noting that GM / Chevrolet has far less say in how many Bolts will be sold compared to Model 3, relative to production capacity. How many Chevrolet dealerships will be allowed to sell them, since they are required to meet some mythical requirement to sell electric vehicles? How many will grudgingly sell one, if you can spot it parked in the next to the back row surrounded by other vehicles so they can't be seen from the road? How many will leave them inside the Service Department to keep them out of sight, while later stating that they've had one for sale for months and blah, blah, blah.....

Chevrolet will be fortunate to sell the number they've already forecast, while dealer associations scream foul at Tesla sales.


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## MichelT3 (Nov 16, 2016)

In today's newspaper; the launch of the Opel Ampera-e (Chevrolet Bolt) in The Netherlands.
With the impossible range of 530 km and a sales price from € 40,000.


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## Gilberto Pe-Curto (Oct 20, 2016)

What ?!
530km ???!!!!


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## MichelT3 (Nov 16, 2016)

Yes, 530 km = that totally unrealistic NEDC-norm, demanded by European car companies.
In the article it's already lowered to less than 400 km. EPA-norm 238 miles = 380 km.
But I think in practical daily driving it will be someling like 340 km.

Sadly in the article no word about the lack of a charging structure, larger batteries, missing updates, missing autopilot and all the other features that make Tesla stand out.
The price is including 21 % VAT.

They're going to publish a practical review in tomorrow's newspaper.


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## Gilberto Pe-Curto (Oct 20, 2016)

Got it!
Keeping my Model3 reservation... for now...


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## MelindaV (Apr 2, 2016)

@MichelT3 - my grasp of the Dutch language is limited to my last name's translation (some times English for that matter), but at least I can understand the headline... how ever do they think the Bolt/Ampera-e is having an "iPhone moment"? Are they just picking up on the Model 3 initial reservations likeness to iPhone and figuring because of price and they are both EVs, the Bolt/Ampera-e can piggyback on the Model 3 comparison to iPhone? I don't see anything close to that level of consumer excitement for Bolt/Ampera-e.


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## MichelT3 (Nov 16, 2016)

It isn't explained in detail. And I can't look into the head of the headline maker of course.
What they are saying is that the launch of the Ampera-e could be the turning point for a fundamental change in the use of personal transport. Just like the iPhone fundamentally changed the use of mobile phones. At least according to Opel (GM).
Also the fact that people will start appreciating and buying BEV's and depreciating (diesel) ICE-cars.

By the way, what is your last name? It says just "V" here.


----------



## InElonWeTrust (Jan 4, 2017)

chopr147 said:


> One Calif. dealership added a $5000 "market adjustment" to the Bolt. It was publicized so maybe they had to take that off but I have not heard of any discounts. Hell, in NY I can't find one Bolt.


I just sat in one from a local dealer and they were doing below sticker with others well below sticker. Largest car market in America and must not be that much of a demand. Just saying....


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## MelindaV (Apr 2, 2016)

MichelT3 said:


> It isn't explained in detail. And I can't look into the head of the headline maker of course.
> What they are saying is that the launch of the Ampera-e could be the turning point for a fundamental change in the use of personal transport. Just like the iPhone fundamentally changed the use of mobile phones. At least according to Opel (GM).
> Also the fact that people will start appreciating and buying BEV's and depreciating (diesel) ICE-cars.
> 
> By the way, what is your last name? It says just "V" here.


VerMeer


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## MelindaV (Apr 2, 2016)

InElonWeTrust said:


> I just sat in one from a local dealer and they were doing below sticker with others well below sticker. Largest car market in America and must not be that much of a demand. Just saying....


and I've again looked into the showroom of the chevy dealer near my office and they have a different mix of non EV cars sitting there. This time two full-sized trucks, one of the corvettes, and a SUV of some sort.


----------



## Kennethbokor (Apr 4, 2016)

Dan Detweiler said:


> I still say that to compare the Bolt to the Model 3 is the same as comparing a Ferrari to a Honda Civic. Hey, they both burn gas right? They both get about 400 miles of range to a tank right? Not even in the same class...not even close. Same with the Bolt vs. Model 3.
> 
> Dan


Agreed Dan. Trevor and I talked about this comparison on our last episode. It is not a fair comparison except for the price point. To be honest, I'm not a big fan of the Bolt when you look at a Model 3. If I had to choose between a Leaf or Bolt, GM would get my money. However, this is not the case since I am a Model 3 reservationist.

Now, I do like the Bolt for what it brings: another "sweet spot" BEV, good performance and handling, good space, good safety, etc. The more competition and manufacturers getting into the BEV space the better.

Remember that EV worldwide sales are only at about 1% of the rest. There is a HUGE worldwide market to go after, even if you eliminate countries with "bad energy" and poor/non existent charging infrastructure.

Everyone making a good quality BEV that is at least at the sweet spot or greater, can stand to do well over the next 20+ years.


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## MichelT3 (Nov 16, 2016)

MelindaV said:


> VerMeer


Like the painter Vermeer... Nice. Flemish or Dutch descent.


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## InElonWeTrust (Jan 4, 2017)

I just drove the Bolt. It is bigger on the inside than it looks. I have to say it was zippy and actually pretty fun to drive. Would I consider it? No, but I can see how it will appeal to others.


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## Michael Russo (Oct 15, 2016)

InElonWeTrust said:


> I just drove the Bolt. It is bigger on the inside that it looks. I have to say it was zippy and actually pretty fun to drive. Would I consider it? No, but I can see how it will appeal to others.


Thanks, @InElonWeTrust . I think you nailed it... by adding the words 'fun to drive'! 'Cause if the Bolt was also just 'pretty', more people, even if not necessarily in this happy M3OC family, would maybe consider it more readily...


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## MichelT3 (Nov 16, 2016)

Well @Michael Russo not pretty = dull = taste. And seeing the numbers of Opels (GM-cars) sold, many people go for dull. That would be good news; many possible buyers (even if that's not us).
Sadly, dull people often don't have the imagination to transfer to a new technology. So, I'm afraid the Bolt / Ampera-e is the wrong car for the wrong marketgroup.


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## InElonWeTrust (Jan 4, 2017)

Interesting demonstration of Self Driving

http://www.theverge.com/2017/2/8/14550620/gm-chevy-bolt-self-driving-car-san-francisco-video


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## Michael Russo (Oct 15, 2016)

By June in EU? Will it be available nationwide in the US by then?
http://insideevs.com/the-opel-ampera-e-new-official-video-collection/


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## MichelT3 (Nov 16, 2016)

Strange, the Ampera-e is already being sold in The Netherlands, which certainly belongs to the EU...

Further: they apparently need to promote their slogan "the Opel Ampera-e is electrifying!"
Mine would be: "the Opel Ampera-e is dull and insufficient!"


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## Badback (Apr 7, 2016)

MichelT3 said:


> Strange, the Ampera-e is already being sold in The Netherlands, which certainly belongs to the EU...
> 
> Further: they apparently need to promote their slogan "the Opel Ampera-e is electrifying!"
> Mine would be: "the Opel Ampera-e is dull and insufficient!"


I would have been more inventive: The Opel Ampera-e is Electeriffic!


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## MichelT3 (Nov 16, 2016)

Maybe some of you will say: "Hey, wasn't the Ampera-e in Europe sold first in Norway?"
That's true, but altough Norway certainly belongs to Europe, it isn't part of the EU...


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## sam s (Oct 18, 2016)

Went to local auto show and took a few pictures of the volt. The interior just looks very boring and bland. I think(hope) the model 3 will have a vastly better interior. I also talked to the GM rep and she told me they will start with the states on the coast for selling. So the east coast will be next. They also had a few of the BMW electric cars. Those were more impressive but a lot more expensive also.


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## Michael Russo (Oct 15, 2016)

sam s said:


> Went to local auto show and took a few pictures of the volt. The interior just looks very boring and bland. I think(hope) the model 3 will have a vastly better interior. (...)


Thanks for that, @sam s ! Indeed, the interior certainly is far from in line with what you would expect from a $38k car...  And the steering looks particularly pathetically dated, IMHO. 

There is little doubt that our beloved spaceship on wheels will be radically better than that!! :fireworks:


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## garsh (Apr 4, 2016)

sam s said:


> Went to local auto show and took a few pictures of the volt.


s/volt/bolt/


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## Badback (Apr 7, 2016)

Votato/Botato.


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## TrevP (Oct 20, 2015)

Ken and I are at the Canadian Auto show today and we each took a test drive in the Chevy Bolt.

Given the interior finish of this car I can say without a doubt that if Model 3 is anything like the Model S in terms of interior it's not going to be a competition. Model 3 will be an incredible car even at $35K.

It's painfully obvious that the majority of the costs on the Bolt are going into the drive train. The interior quality is nothing to write home about. Very very plasticky. Drives decent though but acceleration is not Tesla territory.


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## InElonWeTrust (Jan 4, 2017)

TrevP said:


> Ken and I are at the Canadian Auto show today and we each took a test drive in the Chevy Bolt.
> 
> Given the interior finish of this car I can say without a doubt that if Model 3 is anything like the Model S in terms of interior it's not going to be a competition. Model 3 will be an incredible car even at $35K.
> 
> It's painfully obvious that the majority of the costs on the Bolt are going into the drive train. The interior quality is nothing to write home about. Very very plasticky. Drives decent though but acceleration is not Tesla territory.


Agreed, the thing that was funniest to me about the interior was the light above your head. Did you see it? It looks like something you'd see on a toy. Don't lose anything in your car at night - cause you ain't gonna find it.


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## TrevP (Oct 20, 2015)

InElonWeTrust said:


> Agreed, the thing that was funniest to me about the interior light above your head. Did you see it? It looks like something you'd see on a toy. Don't lose anything in your car at night - cause you ain't gonna find it.


Not to mention the lights are not even LED. Cheap cheap cheap.


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## MelindaV (Apr 2, 2016)

TrevP said:


> Very very plasticky.


so very very GMish


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## chopr147 (May 23, 2016)

Always been a GM fault. The Corvette is not much different when it comes to the interior


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## Uricasha (Feb 19, 2017)

TrevP said:


> Ken and I are at the Canadian Auto show today and we each took a test drive in the Chevy Bolt.
> 
> Given the interior finish of this car I can say without a doubt that if Model 3 is anything like the Model S in terms of interior it's not going to be a competition. Model 3 will be an incredible car even at $35K.
> 
> It's painfully obvious that the majority of the costs on the Bolt are going into the drive train. The interior quality is nothing to write home about. Very very plasticky. Drives decent though but acceleration is not Tesla territory.


Make LG Chem great again


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## MelindaV (Apr 2, 2016)

chopr147 said:


> Always been a GM fault. The Corvette is not much different when it comes to the interior


have I mentioned the list of broken plastic pieces I've replaced on my Solstice? Most all with under 50k miles:
4 dash louvered air vents (even though I don't adjust them & two are left closed all the time)
1 cup holder
1 rarely used exterior passenger door handle (yes, they used unreinforced plastic for this!)
I'm forgetting something else, but there's not that many more moveable parts that could break on this little thing...


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## Michael Russo (Oct 15, 2016)

When a Volt owner from California faces the harsh reality of GM's lack of true commitment to really growing EV sales... It's the _culture_, s....d !! 
http://www.forbes.com/sites/brookec...bolt-and-tesla-model-3-its-a-culture-war/amp/


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## InElonWeTrust (Jan 4, 2017)

To date I have seen 3 Bolts. With 2,114 delivered, living in one of only two states selling it, in the #1 car market in the US, and local dealers selling below invoice in some cases........demand is a concern. Luckily for GM - our friends in Canada get a great amount of money ($14k I believe) from the Government to make it much more appealing.


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## chopr147 (May 23, 2016)

I don't plan on seeing any Bolt's in NY until the September EV shows


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## TrevP (Oct 20, 2015)

InElonWeTrust said:


> To date I have seen 3 Bolts. With 2,114 delivered, living in one of only two states selling it, in the #1 car market in the US, and local dealers selling below invoice in some cases........demand is a concern. Luckily for GM - our friends in Canada get a great amount of money ($14k I believe) from the Government to make it much more appealing.


Ontario has the most rebates so that car is doing rather well here given Teslas are much more expensive here. We have lots of those too despite their price


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## Michael Russo (Oct 15, 2016)

Another frankly laughable title for another Matthew DeBord article from Business Insider, which for the most part is pretty goofy too... 'Paid content'...?

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/just-drove-electric-chevy-bolt-152743590.html


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## InElonWeTrust (Jan 4, 2017)

*Why General Motors May Have Already Lost To Tesla*

*Great article, well worth reading.*

*www.forbes.com/sites/aalsin/2017/03/14/why-general-motors-has-already-lost-to-tesla/amp/*


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## Michael Russo (Oct 15, 2016)

InElonWeTrust said:


> *Why General Motors May Have Already Lost To Tesla*
> 
> *Great article, well worth reading.*
> 
> *www.forbes.com/sites/aalsin/2017/03/14/why-general-motors-has-already-lost-to-tesla/amp/*


Yep! @InElonWeTrust , loved it too... 

https://teslaownersonline.com/threads/gigafactories-vs-share-buyback.2973/#post-18495


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## InElonWeTrust (Jan 4, 2017)

Michael Russo said:


> Yep! @InElonWeTrust , loved it too...
> 
> https://teslaownersonline.com/threads/gigafactories-vs-share-buyback.2973/#post-18495


Great minds, think alike!


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## minogully (Apr 21, 2016)

I just saw my first Chevy Bolt in the wild here in Ottawa, Ontario


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## TrevP (Oct 20, 2015)

minogully said:


> I just saw my first Chevy Bolt in the wild here in Ottawa, Ontario


Poor bastard paid full price too! They're discounting them in the US because they're not moving well with dealers who have an excess of them. One dealer in Los Angeles has 145 of them in stock!


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## minogully (Apr 21, 2016)

TrevP said:


> Poor bastard paid full price too! They're discounting them in the US because they're not moving well with dealers who have an excess of them. One dealer in Los Angeles has 145 of them in stock!


This worries me. I want the EV Revolution to happen, not stall. (_Can_ an EV Revolution _stall_? ba-doom-tshhh)


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## Michael Russo (Oct 15, 2016)

minogully said:


> This worries me. I want the EV Revolution to happen, not stall. (_Can_ an EV Revolution _stall_? ba-doom-tshhh)


BEVs need to be affordable... and appealing! The quality/money for the offering needs to be enticing... Apparently the Bolt is missing some of these criteria... when, as a reference, a prototype, with a reportedly clearly not set interior design, that only privileged few experienced in real life, attracted >400k reservations in only a couple of months...


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## chopr147 (May 23, 2016)

I was watching a 2008 episode of Top Gear UK and they reviewed the Honda Clarity (Still have not seen one)  
Same episode they tore apart the Roadster. Final results? Battery EV's are moving towards the scrap heap of history. Not EVER going to be good enough. Fuel cells are the future.
Now, I know Top Gear is not friendly to EV's in general and usually pan the EV's. But I think James May was a little off in his assessment.


----------



## Topher (May 11, 2016)

Top Gear straight out* lies*.

Thank you kindly.


----------



## Steve C (Sep 28, 2016)

It's a super entertaining show but they do have a thing with Tesla and Elon.


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## chopr147 (May 23, 2016)

It is a very good show and I only started watching a few months ago. So I have been watching episodes on Amazon Prime. I'm a car guy or in the UK a petrol head. Some of it is nonsense but I'm not looking for reviews on 5 year old cars


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## JBsC6 (Oct 17, 2016)

The bolt is technically cool but so ugly ...GM forget the first rule of successfully be a player in the automotive industry...

Build a sexy in demand product that happens to be electric and not gas powered.


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## minogully (Apr 21, 2016)

One person's ugly is another's beautiful. For example, a friend of mine insists that 90s wagon Volvos are the best looking cars.

So I'm sure there are those out there that think this design is attractive. 

Me personally, I'm indifferent to this particular design. I'd take it over any ICE.


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## JBsC6 (Oct 17, 2016)

That's a logical assumption in any discussion. My opinion is this vehicle will need greater incentives to generate demand. 

Tesla has created the balance of sex appeal in design, performance and price that the GM team has yet to achieve.

I find the base model 3 at 35 grand a more appealing design. I'd be surprised if many Americans would prefer the bolt sheet metal design for 35 grand over the tesla 3 in a direct comparision price wise.

I'm a GM enthusiast having spent easily over a quarter of a million dollars in brand new vehicles with them...still looking at the model 3 at 35 and a bolt at 35 grand..

The bolt would have to be incentivized for me to consider one...as will many other Americans...

The model three is purchased because of its design ...and not just because it's electric...

The bolt ...not so much...

It's funny that lutz a pinoneer (sp) for creating demand through stunning sheet metal would recently bash tesla...as its design invokes passion...where the similiarly priced bolt inspires ho hum in interest...

I'm sure you get my drift...ho hum in sheet,teal design creates a need by the manufacturer to add price incentives where hot looking sheet metal in efficient technology In Both products leads the passion filled design with sales success whereas the equal costing breadbox design offers incentives to move this product in to consumers garages quite quickly if we consider equal pricing..

Bolts fine as a shoebox...the tesla model 3 pulls at heart strings...

When you pull at heart strings the option list becomes your profit center....when the design is logical? The option list becomes a more rational decision as does price....

I'm just shooting the breeze with you...

GM needs to take the bolt platform and create a Porsche Macan type body on top of it and sell it as a Buick for five grand more than the bolt with a few standard luxury options if it wants consumers to desire it's product without incentives..

Again..just my opinion


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## Michael Russo (Oct 15, 2016)

GM must have developed it Gangnam style... 
http://insideevs.com/chevrolet-bolt-sold-2017-south-korea/


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## JBsC6 (Oct 17, 2016)

In South Korea the bolt has a price of 42000 dollars but with government incentives they only end up costing the consumer 20000 dollars..

That's an incentive that transcends consumer demand on the product sheet metal design. 

Although if the bolt in the United States would have an end cost of 17500 dollars to the consumer after incentives...many would buy it. I wouldn't..

I don't need to save money that bad...I'd rather own a vehicle I can admire when I look at it. The bolt is just not an attractive looking vehicle...

It's not as horrible as the present Nissan Leaf frog face..but it's not remincencent of an Aston Martin rapide like the model 3.

JMO

Sure hope GM takes some good advice and builds a competitor for the new Jagaur I pace electric ..but priced a little lower and closer to 10 grand higher than a bolt and sold through the Buick, GMC or Cadillac dealership.


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## MelindaV (Apr 2, 2016)

JBsC6 said:


> I don't need to save money that bad...I'd rather own a vehicle I can admire when I look at it. The bolt is just not an attractive looking vehicle...


I've always said the only Chevy I would ever buy would be a Corvette... I compromised with my little Solstice (which is sorta a Baby Corvette), but with it, I have extended the personal ban to all GM products.


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## Michael Russo (Oct 15, 2016)

MelindaV said:


> I've always said the only Chevy I would ever buy would be a Corvette... I compromised with my little Solstice (which is sorta a Baby Corvette), but with it, I have extended the personal ban to all GM products.


Agree on the Corvette. Crazy choice in Europe due to tax on V8s... and price of gas!
Having driven a few as rentals while in TX () I must shamefully concede I enjoyed the most recent Cadillac XTS... yet not as much as the Model S 75D I test drove last time for an hour!!


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## garsh (Apr 4, 2016)

JBsC6 said:


> Although if the bolt in the United States would have an end cost of 17500 dollars to the consumer after incentives...many would buy it. I wouldn't.


 That's the price it should be. Then it's a great alternative to a Honda Fit. I'd get one to replace my second car (minivan) at that price. I'd still want a Tesla for long distance trips.


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## Ralph_G (Aug 26, 2016)

minogully said:


> This worries me. I want the EV Revolution to happen, not stall. (_Can_ an EV Revolution _stall_? ba-doom-tshhh)


Hi all, there's a dealer in Mississauga with a Bolt listed at $52,000 which from what I can find is well above the Canadian MSRP. HMMM, buying a new car under the Tesla model versus the old dealership model,,,,,which do I prefer? Thank goodness we don't have the same issues in Canada which Tesla is experiencing in the US with the dealers association. To your point Trevor, the old school North American manufacturers appear to be refusing to change with the times and will dig their heels in until the bitter end. At least a few overseas manufacturers are starting to see the light. It must be painful for them to see nearly 100,000 luxury vehicle sales lost to a relative start up. On a side note,,, bless your heart Bob Lutz.


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## minogully (Apr 21, 2016)

Ralph_G said:


> a Bolt listed at $52,000


I checked the official website and the MSRP listed there doesn't include $1600 for freight. But that only brings up the price to $44,495.

I did get a chuckle from this sentence in the fine print on the Bolt's website:
...provided by the provincial governments of British Columbia, Ontario, or Quebec (each a "Province") on eligible vehicles.

Who seriously wrote the "each a Province"... lol


----------



## JBsC6 (Oct 17, 2016)

I'm on my third new corvette..these cars are a blast. I also own an awd fe2 sport 304 hp Cadillac CTS and both these vehicles have been a fantastic ownership experience.

I would never bash the brand as the vehicles are excellent performers and excellent ownership experiences.


The bolt is too homely looking...too pedestrian....to garner my attention for a purchasing consideration.

Technically it's durability and I'm sure user ownership experience will be flawless..

I just have no desire to own one...

Passion of purchase is a bob Lutz mantra for decades...but a Elon Musk has nailed it in production for public consumption....which is why his stock valuation on tesla is the highest of all American car manufacturers...

Build a product consumers have a desire ...a burning desire to own....

The bolt...not so much


----------



## TrevP (Oct 20, 2015)

Ralph_G said:


> Hi all, there's a dealer in Mississauga with a Bolt listed at $52,000 which from what I can find is well above the Canadian MSRP. HMMM, buying a new car under the Tesla model versus the old dealership model,,,,,which do I prefer? Thank goodness we don't have the same issues in Canada which Tesla is experiencing in the US with the dealers association. To your point Trevor, the old school North American manufacturers appear to be refusing to change with the times and will dig their heels in until the bitter end. At least a few overseas manufacturers are starting to see the light. It must be painful for them to see nearly 100,000 luxury vehicle sales lost to a relative start up. On a side note,,, bless your heart Bob Lutz.


Which trim is it? Base price is $47500 and the premier trim costs more


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## Ralph_G (Aug 26, 2016)

TrevP said:


> Which trim is it? Base price is $47500 and the premier trim costs more


The base price is $42,795 plus $1600 destination. The Premier is $47,795 plus $1600 destination.


----------



## sam s (Oct 18, 2016)

just got an email of when the bolt will be arriving in each state....

*Available now:* CA, MA, MD, NJ, NY, OR, VA, WA*
May:* CO, CT, DE, HI, ME, NH, RI, VT*
July:* AZ, FL, IL, PA*
August:* TX*
September:* Nationwide


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## Michael Russo (Oct 15, 2016)

A Canadian award... good, yet next year, Model ≡ is likely to get Green Car of the Decade!! 

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/851512300045574147


----------



## InElonWeTrust (Jan 4, 2017)

Got this funny email from GM today. I don't know if they really want my feedback.


----------



## chopr147 (May 23, 2016)

I received an email Bolt is in NY now. Could not find a dealer with one though


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## Michael Russo (Oct 15, 2016)

It may not be nice, nor fair to keep chuckling about the Bolt, but if its lead designer gives us such help!! Aside from the title (?!?), which in itself is something else (Guess what, GM, T≡SLA is _*for sure*_ not worried about the Bolt... )

Then this _fascinating_ quote from Stuart Norris, the lead designer in question:
"_I think the Bolt EV offers something really compelling in the market. I think it's very much in line with where the market is going. So we feel very comfortable with where the Bolt EV is," Norris said. "I think it's great that Chevrolet is kind of compared with a luxury brand like Tesla and we think we have a great product in the segment that is going to be very appealing to the customer._"

So, Stuart, if this is even _remotely_ true, why have you been selling this 'appealing crossover' only at rates <3,000 per month YTD, when T≡SLA got >400k reservations for Model ≡ _within two months_ of revealing a couple of alpha cars ?!?

_What a joke..._ 

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/gm-isn-t-worried-tesla-132919413.html


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## InElonWeTrust (Jan 4, 2017)

Michael Russo said:


> It may not be nice, nor fair to keep chuckling about the Bolt, but if its lead designer gives us such help!! Aside from the title (?!?), which in itself is something else (Guess what, GM, T≡SLA is _*for sure*_ not worried about the Bolt... )
> 
> Then this _fascinating_ quote from Stuart Norris, the lead designer in question:
> "_I think the Bolt EV offers something really compelling in the market. I think it's very much in line with where the market is going. So we feel very comfortable with where the Bolt EV is," Norris said. "I think it's great that Chevrolet is kind of compared with a luxury brand like Tesla and we think we have a great product in the segment that is going to be very appealing to the customer._"
> ...


 The only thing the Bolt and Tesla share in common is their power train type. Aside from that, nada, and I'm not talking National Automobile Dealer Association.


----------



## Badback (Apr 7, 2016)

The Bolt is very compelling in the market. Sure, if you use it as a vegetable stand.


----------



## garsh (Apr 4, 2016)

Badback said:


> The Bolt is very compelling in the market. Sure, if you use it as a vegetable stand.


Be fair. The Bolt is probably the most compelling electric vehicle that you can buy today. Sure, Model S is much better, but so much more expensive. Chevy's timing just wasn't quite early enough, given all of the hype about the Model 3, and the fact that Tesla still seems to be on-time with production.


----------



## Mark Eldridge (Apr 27, 2016)

I would consider a Bolt if Chevy had invested in a supercharger network. I think that's what will hold the Bolt back until better charging options are available.


----------



## Badback (Apr 7, 2016)

garsh said:


> Be fair. The Bolt is probably the most compelling electric vehicle that you can buy today. Sure, Model S is much better, but so much more expensive. Chevy's timing just wasn't quite early enough, given all of the hype about the Model 3, and the fact that Tesla still seems to be on-time with production.


My sarcastic remark came from the sense that the remarks of the designer seem to be really full of himself, as if the design of the Bolt was something other that vulgar and pedestrian.


----------



## SSonnentag (Mar 30, 2017)

Tesla's supercharging network is what makes Tesla stand out as the current winner among all the current and upcoming EV's. Bolt, Leaf, BMW, VW, etc. all have decent range EV's in the works, but without a way to recharge them quickly while out on the road, they're nothing more than local commuter cars.


----------



## Michael Russo (Oct 15, 2016)

garsh said:


> Be fair. The Bolt is probably the most compelling electric vehicle that you can buy today. Sure, Model S is much better, but so much more expensive. Chevy's timing just wasn't quite early enough, given all of the hype about the Model 3, and the fact that Tesla still seems to be on-time with production.


Never said I care for its design... yet I'd offer the i3 is still more compelling than the Bolt...


Badback said:


> My sarcastic remark came from the sense that the remarks of the designer seem to be really full of himself, as if the design of the Bolt was something other that vulgar and pedestrian.


Totally. Then look at YTD sales... see post in EV Statistics! 
https://teslaownersonline.com/threads/ev-statistics.2023/page-3
More modesty seems called for...


----------



## garsh (Apr 4, 2016)

Michael Russo said:


> ...yet I'd offer the i3 is still more compelling than the Bolt...


The only thing the i3 has going for it is that it's a BMW instead of a Chevy.

It's smaller, more expensive, and has less than half the range. The Bolt kicks its butt. Hell, the current Nissan Leaf kicks the i3's butt.


----------



## Badback (Apr 7, 2016)

garsh said:


> The only thing the i3 has going for it is that it's a BMW instead of a Chevy.
> 
> It's smaller, more expensive, and has less than half the range. The Bolt kicks its butt. Hell, the current Nissan Leaf kicks the i3's butt.


That's like saying that the only thing watermelon has going for it is that it's not broccoli.


----------



## Michael Russo (Oct 15, 2016)

garsh said:


> The only thing the i3 has going for it is that it's a BMW instead of a Chevy. (...)


Dear @garsh, I view it differently yet we can agree to disagree...  And even if it were the only reason... for me, I plead guilty to say it would tip the scale for me (though, in a backward type of way, I still like the 'Vette & recent Cadillac's... )


garsh said:


> (...) Hell, the current Nissan Leaf kicks the i3's butt.


How is that??  Brand new or after several years...?

Anyways, none of this matters. The whole point was, fine, the Bolt is 'great'... yet then why, oh why, does it not sell more???


----------



## SSonnentag (Mar 30, 2017)

Despite GM's claims that the Volt and Bolt are not compliance vehicles, their lack of promotion for these two vehicles states the opposite. GM doesn't make enough/any money on these two models, so they try to sell as few as they can get away with.


----------



## Michael Russo (Oct 15, 2016)

SSonnentag said:


> Despite GM's claims that the Volt and Bolt are not compliance vehicles, their lack of promotion for these two vehicles states the opposite. GM doesn't make enough/any money on these two models, so they try to sell as few as they can get away with.


Right... unless we want to consider these goofy statements by their lead designer as 'promotion' 
Objectively though, they still do pretty well with the Volt after all this time... Makes performance with the 'appealing' Bolt even more miserable...


----------



## TrevP (Oct 20, 2015)

garsh said:


> The only thing the i3 has going for it is that it's a BMW instead of a Chevy.
> 
> It's smaller, more expensive, and has less than half the range. The Bolt kicks its butt. Hell, the current Nissan Leaf kicks the i3's butt.


It's a shame, the i3 is such an incredibly well-thought-out design from an engineering aspect. Range should be better but I get that the price is higher given the low-volume CFRP construction. I really like that car and BMWs in general


----------



## garsh (Apr 4, 2016)

Michael Russo said:


> ...yet we can agree to disagree.


Goes without saying.
Or with saying. 


> How is that??  Brand new or after several years...?


A brand new Leaf is larger, has more range, and costs less than an i3. They're both tied in the weirdmobile category, AFAIAC. The Bolt at least looks like a normal econobox.


----------



## Michael Russo (Oct 15, 2016)

garsh said:


> Goes without saying.
> Or with saying. A brand new Leaf is larger, has more range, and costs less than an i3. They're both tied in the weirdmobile category, AFAIAC. The Bolt at least looks like a normal econobox.


Hahaha... 
Guess I still prefer weirdmobile to econobox... 

Yet , sleek Midnight S≡R≡NITY of course is waaaay better!


----------



## MelindaV (Apr 2, 2016)

Ascetically, I find the i3 exterior much more appealing than the Bolt or Leaf. And interior isn't even a comparison - it is interesting and different without being off-putting while the Bolt/Leaf may as well be any other economy sub compact interior.
If I had kids I was getting in and out of the back seat, I may look at the i3 differently, but not ever having owned a 4 door car, I could deal with the suicide doors.


----------



## chopr147 (May 23, 2016)

The i3 was well thought out. Interior a little different but appealing, as MelindaV says. I test drove one and like it. But I LOVE the S. The 3 also is the first "desirable" affordable EV, IMHO. No-one will call it an econo-box, or even a weird-mobile.


----------



## Michael Russo (Oct 15, 2016)

Kinda funny... lease the econobox then divorce for a much better looking & racy young lady... Modella Tres!! 


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/862351860908404736


----------



## InElonWeTrust (Jan 4, 2017)

Watch out, Tesla! Another 1st to market by GM and the Bolt Team.


----------



## JBsC6 (Oct 17, 2016)

Technically excellent....great dealer network ...looks like a refrigerator with wheels...could never own such an ugly beast...

Time for offshoots that are more stylish and contemporary whereby consumers are driven to passion as they gaze upon them...

Till then...bolt is a failure in my opinion...

Good for uber and Lyft drivers


----------



## william5543 (Sep 20, 2016)

JBsC6 said:


> Technically excellent....great dealer network ...looks like a refrigerator with wheels...could never own such an ugly beast...
> 
> Time for offshoots that are more stylish and contemporary whereby consumers are driven to passion as they gaze upon them...
> 
> ...


For me the lack of a charging network limits most distance travel. In addition sales certainly are limited by lack of availability in many states. They build the Bolt here in Michigan and yet it is not available here until September. Chevrolet made the same mistake by not offering the 2016 Volt here. This forced me to replace my 2013 Volt with a Ford C-Max Energi. Lease deal just way too good to pass up. Really do miss more EV miles.

Oh well, just need more patience while we await our Model 3.


----------



## TrevP (Oct 20, 2015)

There's an orange Bolt in my neighbourhood. I keep pointing it out to my wife but she's like "meh". She likes to point out all the Teslas though


----------



## Rick59 (Jul 20, 2016)

TrevP said:


> There's an orange Bolt in my neighbourhood. I keep pointing it out to my wife but she's like "meh". She likes to point out all the Teslas though


She's well trained Trev.


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## MelindaV (Apr 2, 2016)

Rick59 said:


> She's well trained Trev.


or smart enough to realize the Bolt is just "meh"


----------



## Badback (Apr 7, 2016)

My OTHER (mostly human female companion) takes great delight in wearing her Tesla jacket to the VW dealer whenever the Tiguan is in for service.


----------



## AZ Desert Driver (May 2, 2016)

TrevP said:


> There's an orange Bolt in my neighbourhood. I keep pointing it out to my wife but she's like "meh". She likes to point out all the Teslas though


oh, oh....could that be Trump prowling in your neighborhood?


----------



## Curtis Ruder (Jul 10, 2016)

TrevP said:


> I wrote Chrysler off a long time ago.
> 
> I have a Ford (Lincoln) at the moment and I'm very disappointed in their EV efforts. For a company that managed to survive the economic recession on 2008 you'd think they'd be a bit more proactive. They're the least offensive American car maker I considered for my last car, Tesla notwithstanding.
> 
> I will certainly take the Bolt for a test drive when it arrives in the great white North but I'm certainly not buying one. Model 3 is the only affordable compelling EV on the horizon. .


I have a lease on a Ford Focus Electric that should last me until my Model 3 is ready. It is a very nice car, and I think it compares favorably to the Leaf. The range is poor - roughly 80 miles depending on driving conditions - so it, like the Leaf, is a perfect commuting car but can't be our family's primary car. But it is a delight to drive and is well equipped.

Ford has not marketed their electric enough or invested in it, and for that they definitely deserve criticism. But the EV they have produced is actually a very reasonable car. I love mine.


----------



## By-Tor62 (May 24, 2017)

Jayc said:


> I bet 235. However, its highway range will fall well short and they will avoid mentioning that.


I am leasing a Nissan Leaf, which ends in November. Hopefully my 3 will be here around that same time. The Leaf has horrible highway range and you can just watch as it plummets. How does the Tesla compare? I don't know enough about its technology to know if it also plummets at higher speeds. I have been assuming so. Am I wrong?


----------



## Topher (May 11, 2016)

By-Tor62 said:


> How does the Tesla compare? I don't know enough about its technology to know if it also plummets at higher speeds. I have been assuming so. Am I wrong?


Unfortunately the laws of physics say that going faster in an atmosphere requires more power. How much depends on coefficient of drag, and frontal area, the Model 3 beats the Leaf in both categories. How much? We don't know yet.

Thank you kindly.


----------



## Michael Russo (Oct 15, 2016)

Hate to say it, yet on this one, I am not sure what got to our friend Bjørn... 
I'm watching this & keep on waiting for the average speed... only to find out in the small print under the Youtube video that it was less than 40 km/h (35 mph) ?!?! _What_?!!


----------



## garsh (Apr 4, 2016)

A Nissan Leaf's most efficient speed is 12mph.
I'm sure somebody has driven a Leaf at 12mph to set a single-charge record.


----------



## Topher (May 11, 2016)

A bunch of folks drove a Prius 1200 miles on one tank, all in one go. Round and round the same 40 mile route. People are strange.

Thank you kindly.


----------



## Michael Russo (Oct 15, 2016)

Occasionally, somebody at SA is making sense... it's refreshing.... 

GM's Chevy Bolt Is Not Serious Competition For Tesla's Model 3 $GM
http://www.seekingalpha.com/article/4077778


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## Topher (May 11, 2016)

Michael Russo said:


> Occasionally, somebody at SA is making sense... it's refreshing....


And yet he still misses that Tesla is going to sell a lot more Model 3s with a tax credit, than GM is Bolts. That is, if both stick to their respective production plans. If you are going to rank them according to how much the tax credit cheapens (ww) the car, you have to give it to Tesla. It doesn't matter HOW LONG you can sell cars with the credit (at most a quarter anyway), it matters HOW MANY.

Thank you kindly.


----------



## Michael Russo (Oct 15, 2016)

That's it, folks, I have had my fill of BS for the day, when I read statements like this:

_But G.M. is making a case that it can be a leader in the auto industry of both today and tomorrow. "We are very, very serious and intent on putting something on the road," Ms. Barra said of the company's automated vehicles. "We definitely want to be first."_

In fact, when I read the entire article... 


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/871501572374712320


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## InElonWeTrust (Jan 4, 2017)

Michael Russo said:


> That's it, folks, I have had my fill of BS for the day, when I read statements like this:
> 
> _But G.M. is making a case that it can be a leader in the auto industry of both today and tomorrow. "We are very, very serious and intent on putting something on the road," Ms. Barra said of the company's automated vehicles. "We definitely want to be first."_
> 
> ...


GM and Mary Barra are hypocrites. They also claim to care about reducing air pollution and caring for the environment. Had to call her out on her recent tweet. I would have loved to say more but dumb Twitter limits characters


----------



## Michael Russo (Oct 15, 2016)

Haha! Great idea so I added my 5 cents worth... 


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/871621054166388736


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## InElonWeTrust (Jan 4, 2017)

Got this and wanted to share with the group. Let me know if you are tempted and I'll forward it to you.


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## garsh (Apr 4, 2016)

C'mon GM! You let me test drive a Hummer H2 for 24 hours back in the day. Do the same for the Bolt!


----------



## The Big Bobowski (Jun 3, 2017)

Took a test drive of the Bolt on Wednesday at my local GM dealer (where I'm currently leasing a Volt). There were a few things that I really liked, like the range (obviously best yet for the price), the acceleration (much quicker than my Volt, which is already pretty peppy) and the bird's-eye-view parking screen (really a great feature). One piece of tech that I thought was cool before the test drive but ultimately felt I'd never use was the camera view in the rearview mirror. It was just a bit too disorienting after 25 years of seeing an actual reflection there while driving.

Overall, I just can't shake the fact that it feels like an economy car with some upgraded tech. I really dislike the plastic that runs across the dash and the interior of the doors. It feels so cheap. And sorry, but there's just nothing sexy about the shape of the car. It just looks like a Chevy Spark to me.

Sure, I'm biased, but I came away from the test drive that much more excited about my Model 3 reservation. Even if we don't end up getting that birds-eye-view parking screen.

Also, first thing the salesman did was lift up the hood and say, "There's the engine." One more reinforcement that I don't need a salesperson in the car-buying process. Thanks but no thanks.


----------



## InElonWeTrust (Jan 4, 2017)

Thebigbobowski said:


> Took a test drive of the Bolt on Wednesday at my local GM dealer (where I'm currently leasing a Volt). There were a few things that I really liked, like the range (obviously best yet for the price), the acceleration (much quicker than my Volt, which is already pretty peppy) and the bird's-eye-view parking screen (really a great feature). One piece of tech that I thought was cool before the test drive but ultimately felt I'd never use was the camera view in the rearview mirror. It was just a bit too disorienting after 25 years of seeing an actual reflection there while driving.
> 
> Overall, I just can't shake the fact that it feels like an economy car with some upgraded tech. I really dislike the plastic that runs across the dash and the interior of the doors. It feels so cheap. And sorry, but there's just nothing sexy about the shape of the car. It just looks like a Chevy Spark to me.
> 
> Sure, I'm biased, but I came away from the test drive that much more excited about my Model 3 reservation. Even if we don't end up getting that birds-eye-view parking screen.


I agree 100% after I drove one. What do you think the birds eye view would be helpful for? I've seen it but don't really understand the real world usage. Thanks


----------



## The Big Bobowski (Jun 3, 2017)

Spatial awareness in parking spots, mainly. Sometimes I'll pull into a spot and if I'm coming into it at a weird angle, or if the spot itself is angled, I won't be 100% sure if I'm centered in the spot. Birds-eye-view lets you know exactly where you are spatially.


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## garsh (Apr 4, 2016)

Thebigbobowski said:


> Also, first thing the salesman did was lift up the hood and say, "There's the engine."


That's great.


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## InElonWeTrust (Jan 4, 2017)

Thebigbobowski said:


> Spatial awareness in parking spots, mainly. Sometimes I'll pull into a spot and if I'm coming into it at a weird angle, or if the spot itself is angled, I won't be 100% sure if I'm centered in the spot. Birds-eye-view lets you know exactly where you are spatially.


Very interesting, I'll have to check it out. Thanks


----------



## Badback (Apr 7, 2016)

Point to the salesman's skull and say 'there's no brain'.


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## By-Tor62 (May 24, 2017)

InElonWeTrust said:


> I agree 100% after I drove one. What do you think the birds eye view would be helpful for? I've seen it but don't really understand the real world usage. Thanks


My sister-in-law has a beamer SUV with birds eye view camera. Really handy when parallel parking. She stopped in downtown San Fran to park and I thought "you'll never get this in that spot!". One take with the camera was all it took.


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## Michael Russo (Oct 15, 2016)

Very, very good article that talks to the relative appeal of brands and how they appeal to different audiences! 

https://www.forbes.com/sites/markha...sla-how-to-misunderstand-brands-entirely/amp/


----------



## SSonnentag (Mar 30, 2017)

A couple of months back I went it to my local Chevrolet dealer to look at a Bolt they had on the lot. The sales drone came out and started spewing the normal uninformed nonsense. The best part was when he was trying to convince me to buy it by tossing in free oil changes for 2 years. Seriously?

Oh, I forgot to mention one of his other silly comments. "It gets great gas mileage, over 200 mpg!"


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## The Big Bobowski (Jun 3, 2017)

Just got a call from the Chevy dealer. They told me my name just came up on a list of people eligible for a special $3,000 manufacturer discount on the Bolt. Kind of surprised to hear they're having to offer these kinds of incentives already.


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## TrevP (Oct 20, 2015)

Thebigbobowski said:


> Just got a call from the Chevy dealer. They told me my name just came up on a list of people eligible for a special $3,000 manufacturer discount on the Bolt. Kind of surprised to hear they're having to offer these kinds of incentives already.


That's because they're not moving. GM is really good at stuffing trunks with money to move product.


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## The Big Bobowski (Jun 3, 2017)

TrevP said:


> That's because they're not moving. GM is really good at stuffing trunks with money to move product.


Yeah, it's actually kind of sad that their brand-new "car of the year" needs cash incentives like that.


----------



## M3CrushedICE (May 21, 2016)

With an Ottawa, ON Chevy dealer, I was invited to put down $2500 deposit on a Chevy Bolt arriving "soon". When I asked for final pricing, I was told that the final price could be $500 to $1000 more than what I was seeing as MSRP. No deals could be had and the kicker was... If I put the deposit down now, in July 2017, I could expect the car "as early as" July 2018.

Seriously, the dealers here think that GM (& they perhaps) are as good as, or better than Tesla. It just boggled my mind. I thanked them for their time and wished them luck.

Still scratching my head over that one as I read that there are many dealers in the US with excess Bolt inventories and deep discounts.


----------



## The Big Bobowski (Jun 3, 2017)

M3CrushedICE said:


> With an Ottawa, ON Chevy dealer, I was invited to put down $2500 deposit on a Chevy Bolt arriving "soon". When I asked for final pricing, I was told that the final price could be $500 to $1000 more than what I was seeing as MSRP. No deals could be had and the kicker was... If I put the deposit down now, in July 2017, I could expect the car "as early as" July 2018.
> 
> Seriously, the dealers here think that GM (& they perhaps) are as good as, or better than Tesla. It just boggled my mind. I thanked them for their time and wished them luck.
> 
> Still scratching my head over that one as I read that there are many dealers in the US with excess Bolt inventories and deep discounts.


That's crazy. Just another reason to despise the traditional dealership model.


----------



## Curt Renz (May 22, 2017)

Believe it or not this nonsense about free oil changes for an electric Bolt actually appears on an inventory webpage for Courtesy Chevrolet in Phoenix, Arizona: http://www.courtesychev.com/Vehicle...0&bodyType=CAR&make=Chevrolet&model=Bolt%20EV


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## Michael Russo (Oct 15, 2016)

In a race between the Ugliest (Clarity) and the Box (Bolt)... the Box won... great, GM may sell 5 more cars... 


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/888126871438737408


----------



## RobW (Jul 23, 2017)

I like the idea that GM is getting serious about EV's but I just can't get over the way it looks. Kinda like a minivan got smashed in the face, IMHO. Nothing like the Model 3 which is sleek and sexy.


----------



## Topher (May 11, 2016)

Thebigbobowski said:


> Yeah, it's actually kind of sad that their brand-new "car of the year" needs cash incentives like that.


And it isn't even being sold in all states yet. Anyone still think it isn't a compliance car? Too bad really, it could have been so much more.

Thank you kindly


----------



## garsh (Apr 4, 2016)

Topher said:


> And it isn't even being sold in all states yet.


I thought they were finally opening up ordering nationwide?
GM opens Chevy Bolt EV orders nationwide for deliveries in August


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## Topher (May 11, 2016)

garsh said:


> I thought they were finally opening up ordering nationwide?
> GM opens Chevy Bolt EV orders nationwide for deliveries in August


My calendar says July. Admittedly the longest July on record... 

Thank you kindly.


----------



## MelindaV (Apr 2, 2016)

http://insideevs.com/chevrolet-bolt-battery-failure/

Single cell failure is causing full system to misread battery capacity, casing people to drain the battery and be stranded. Affected cars are needing complete pack replacement.


----------



## garsh (Apr 4, 2016)

Source for the insideevs article:
General Motors Notifies Early Chevy Bolt Owners of Potential Battery Failure
Great quotes:

_"...the tow-truck driver informing me that my Bolt was the third one he had picked up in recent days."_​
Kind of surprising. I wonder if this battery issue is a common problem, or if the Bolt has additional problems that leave the vehicle stranded. Surely there aren't that many people simply running out of juice in a 200 mile range vehicle.

_"The service at the closest Chevrolet dealership, approximately 20 miles away, was also lacking. It took about two days to diagnose the problem because, as the service manager informed me, the dealership only has one EV specialist-and that technician was busy working on other Bolt jobs in the queue. It took nearly two weeks for a new battery pack to be shipped to the dealership and swapped into the car. "_​
And this is why Tesla doesn't want to deal with "dealerships". They simply won't commit to servicing EVs.


----------



## MelindaV (Apr 2, 2016)

And not exactly in line with the GM communications guy making in sound like their OnStar system first alerted them to the issue and they are all over it. Maybe alerted when the owner pressed the button and said “why will my car not move when it says it is charged?”


----------



## Michael Russo (Oct 15, 2016)

A brief spark on the Bolt? 


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/903027225351639040


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## MelindaV (Apr 2, 2016)

I forgot in the lunchtime excitement of the possible knife wielding, satchel carrying, definitely high ratman (that would prob only make sense to @Michael Russo) I came across the first Bolt I've seen in the wild! Only 9 months after they first went on sale here....


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## Michael Russo (Oct 15, 2016)

MelindaV said:


> View attachment 3140
> I forgot in the lunchtime excitement of the possible knife wielding, satchel carrying, definitely high ratman (that would prob only make sense to @Michael Russo) I came across the first Bolt I've seen in the wild! Only 9 months after they first went on sale here....


Wow, and how did it make you feel? Did you want to go and give it a big huuuug??


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## TrevP (Oct 20, 2015)

MelindaV said:


> http://insideevs.com/chevrolet-bolt-battery-failure/
> 
> Single cell failure is causing full system to misread battery capacity, casing people to drain the battery and be stranded. Affected cars are needing complete pack replacement.


Glaring oversight of monumental proportions if you ask me. How could LG not have tested for this?


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## JBsC6 (Oct 17, 2016)

The bolt is actually a better looking hot hatch in Eurocentric style in person while showing up in photos as horrible..

I think it's 12 cars that have this battery pack problem being described and the one thing I can state without a shadow of a doubt is GM will make things right for consumers affected by a bolt battery issue.(edit) a possible couple of hundred cars could have this issue and GM has notified them, I think that's pretty proactive and GM will fix the issue on those cars seamlessly should the need arise)

Just my opinion,,,based off of decades of great GM service on my various corvettes...

I think the bolt technology is cool.,,I just couldn't own that little door stop.

If GM produced a cuv off the bolt chassis that looked like a Porsche Macan or upcoming jaguar ev I pace...

I'd prefer to own a Gm product. I have received amazing levels of service on my corvettes and other GM products from my Chevy dealer in Middletown Ct, Jackson Chevrolet.

I fully expect tesla owned dealerships to deliver warranty and future service excellence in the same vein.

If not ...the model 3 I will receive next year will be gone after 3 years of warranty service.


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## MelindaV (Apr 2, 2016)

Michael Russo said:


> Wow, and how did it make you feel? Did you want to go and give it a big huuuug??


Walking up and seeing the EV badge (before the Bolt badge) I was thinking it was a Spark EV. I look every time I see one to make sure  There are quite a few Sparks around and not that unusual. When I saw the Bolt badge I was surprised it's so close to the size of the Spark - small.


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## JBsC6 (Oct 17, 2016)

Eurocentric styling for a tall hatch is probably a better description for the bolt...that's really an accepted design language in Europe where as in the USA...tall hatches are kind of looked down upon by consumers.

I don't think the Ford c max tall hatch sold well here...but in Europe it probably so,d relatively well.

Americans tend to prefer a cuv with tall wheels and a little more butch look..

The bolt just doesn't pull off its styling in a successful traditional American market...

The design was born in either Korea or Europe and it doesn't translate well and its obvious Americans are less than enthusiastic about its styling statement. GM blew it in my opinion...

GM followed space utilatuon priorities that led to the styling disaster we call the BMW I3 even the Europeans think it's a dumb looking thing...I could be wrong but in my opinion a jaguar like I pace would sell no matter whose badge was on it...

I think GM should create a jaguar I pace competitor style wise for either GMC or Buick...or Cadillac...(I'm not a big fan of cadillacs head raising prices to promote exclusivity...I find that move insulting...not because event Cadillac owners can't afford the increase in price of thousands of dollars per new model ..i.e. 2nd gen cts to 3 red gen cts...consumers aren't stupid ...and when the product goes down in value of the base vehicle and the prices rise 7 grand or whatever the ex Audi guy running Cadillac settled in on...all he did was rip a few early adopters off and then make them feel like fools as he piled on incentives to match BMW ....subsidized lease deals..

The bolt lacks American desired style...and in America that Eurocentric tall shoebox doorstop look is a fail...

GM needs to act fast with bolt offshoots with real live new sheet metal and fast if it doesn't want another ev dud on its hands...

Even the Toyota Prius is getting its ass handed to it because its Japanese weird this generation...

Tesla has the style thing down pat with the sedans..

I think the x is off with its heavy rear hunchback design that' is in my opinion awkward for larger volume sales...

AAmericans prefer a more balanced design that the model x offers...

Sometimes it looks cool but for the most part...it's a more awkward shape.


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## Michael Russo (Oct 15, 2016)

JBsC6 said:


> Eurocentric styling for a tall hatch is probably a better description for the bolt...that's really an accepted design language in Europe where as in the USA...tall hatches are kind of looked down upon by consumers.
> 
> I don't think the Ford c max tall hatch sold well here...but in Europe it probably so,d relatively well.
> 
> (...)


Appreciation of design is a very personal thing which more and more transcends regional specificities, IMHO.

Not sure how often you come to Europe. I can tell you, for instance, that the Ford C-Max has not done that well over here either. On the other hand, while overseas this summer, I saw a bunch of Kia Soul, throughout the US! Driving through 19 states, it was everywhere... 

Americans love big pickup trucks & SUVs, yet mostly because there is space so roads (and parking spots) are larger and gas is cheap(er). These two elements are killers in Europe although medium to large S- or CUVs have become increasingly popular here too. In recent years, small to medium size CUVs have also been sold in higher numbers. I think that, other than points made above, these design preference differences between the US and EU tend to fade away in many segments.
This is certainly why the Y (no pun intended ) is expected to do well on both sides of the water...

_Long live EVs_, whatever their shape as to each her/his own!


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## JWardell (May 9, 2016)

Last week one of my favorite down-to-earth car reviewers posted a review of the Bolt. It's not unfavorable. I was glad he had several mentions of the Model 3 in there.


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## Badback (Apr 7, 2016)

JWardell said:


> Last week one of my favorite down-to-earth car reviewers posted a review of the Bolt. It's not unfavorable. I was glad he had several mentions of the Model 3 in there.


I thought he was a bit gung ho on the Bolt, like it's not the stupid looking cheapo econo box that it is.


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## Michael Russo (Oct 15, 2016)

So, 'GM believes in EVs' now?! Wonder what this will mean in practice... 

Also note the reference to the 200 Bolt made each day... 6k per month? Seems like a lot in view of YTD sales, no? Even if this was only week days, that would still add up to 4K on a monthly basis. A bit surprising...


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/909467325589524482


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## Michael Russo (Oct 15, 2016)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/909492506680872960
Seems like anti-sell to me ...


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## DrPhyzx (Nov 20, 2017)

MelindaV said:


> Walking up and seeing the EV badge (before the Bolt badge) I was thinking it was a Spark EV. I look every time I see one to make sure  There are quite a few Sparks around and not that unusual. When I saw the Bolt badge I was surprised it's so close to the size of the Spark - small.


Having driven and ridden in the back seat of both, they are not remotely the same size or of the same quality: I'm not sure how you would mistake the two. The Bolt, in fact, has a slightly larger passenger volume than the Model S, easily seating 5, and a much nicer interior (at least in the Premier trim) than the very spartan Spark, which is also nearly the ugliest hatchback ever. The Spark is a tight fit for 4 and has a very tiny trunk and really lousy interior quality. Here in the Bay Area, there are Bolts everywhere now. They're actually pretty decent cars if you like hatchbacks, and I expect they'll do well in Europe, where they have had to limit initial sales of the Ampere-E because they can't keep up on top of NA Bolt deliveries. It will be interesting to see if they respond by increasing the share of Bolt production at Orion next year, which I'm told could easily support 50,000/year without additional tooling, and by changing over other production there, I believe they could go much higher still if the demand develops.


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## DrPhyzx (Nov 20, 2017)

The Big Bobowski said:


> Yeah, it's actually kind of sad that their brand-new "car of the year" needs cash incentives like that.


Having looked a bit at the Bolt, it's highly dependent on where you live. California has tons on lots (but oddly no significant incentives, unless you count a 3.9% APR loan), as do some other areas that were deemed key markets, while supply is short to nonexistent with price gouging in other areas where they underestimated demand. Overall, it seems like they've not done a good job of adjusting the rollout on the fly, but once it's available everywhere for a while an equilibrium should be reached.


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## Michael Russo (Oct 15, 2016)

DrPhyzx said:


> (...) They're actually pretty decent cars if you like hatchbacks, and I expect they'll do well in Europe, where they have had to limit initial sales of the Ampere-E because they can't keep up on top of NA Bolt deliveries. (...)


Was reading recently that EU prices for the Ampera-E were sharply on the rise, surely as an attempt to lease sales...
Also not clear to me what PSA (new owner of Opel/Vauxhall) will do with this model and/or whether they even have access to the technology (though I would think so). Certainly Peugeot, apart from a few hybrid city driving machines is trailing in their electrification actions...


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## garsh (Apr 4, 2016)

Michael Russo said:


> Was reading recently that EU prices for the Ampera-E were sharply on the rise, surely as an attempt to lease sales...


I heard it was because GM screwed them over.
https://electrek.co/2017/11/06/chevy-bolt-ev-ampera-e-price-increase-europe/


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## MichelT3 (Nov 16, 2016)

Michael Russo said:


> Was reading recently that EU prices for the Ampera-E were sharply on the rise, surely as an attempt to lease sales...
> Also not clear to me what PSA (new owner of Opel/Vauxhall) will do with this model and/or whether they even have access to the technology (though I would think so). Certainly Peugeot, apart from a few hybrid city driving machines is trailing in their electrification actions...


I'm afraid PSA might have bought Opel partly because of the Ampera-E and now isn't getting that GM-technology. Since PSA's only other recent BEV experience is the re-badged and recently discontinued Mitsubishi Miev, I foresee a very bleak future for Peugeot, Citroën and Opel within five years. Unless the brands are rescued by another Chinese takeover, adding to the current 50%, and being made into an EU re-badged outlet for Chinese BEV's. I have lost all trust in Citroën as a technological adventurous brand.


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## Michael Russo (Oct 15, 2016)

Objectively not a bad result after all...

https://jalopnik.com/the-chevy-bolt-outsold-the-volt-and-now-its-awkward-1821756272/amp


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## Michael Russo (Oct 15, 2016)

Opel decommercializes the European version to the Bolt, the Ampera-e... no big loss for me..


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## DrPhyzx (Nov 20, 2017)

Word is GM is selling all they can make in the US on the current line, so I expect they made the terms for Opel very unfavorable.


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## M3OC Rules (Nov 18, 2016)

SoFlaModel3 said:


> I'm sure that's reasonable to expect and those consumers may opt for a Bolt instead.


How many are they going to make though?


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## Michel Zehnder (May 10, 2016)

Michael Russo said:


> As an aside for the Europeans, Opel pulled the Ampera-e according to Alex from E! For Electric. See my post and comment in the Bolt thread please if you so desire...
> 
> https://teslaownersonline.com/threads/the-chevy-bolt-official-discussion.1166/page-18#post-75139


?
I read it's coming again, but that their „real" EV will be a corsa... ?


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## SoFlaModel3 (Apr 15, 2017)

DC Rules said:


> How many are they going to make though?


That's a good question and I've never seen one outside of 2 different trips to California.


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## Michael Russo (Oct 15, 2016)

Michel Zehnder said:


> ?
> I read it's coming again, but that their „real" EV will be a corsa... ?


Yes, Alex mentions that yet IMHO, that would be a different car, not a mere rebadged Bolt.. Heck, if may even look decent, seen the most recent Opel designs, e.g. new Insignia !


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## Michael Russo (Oct 15, 2016)

SoFlaModel3 said:


> That's a good question and I've never seen one outside of 2 different trips to California.


And January statistics don't look good... 
see the embedded tweet in Alex Roy's Tweet with the graph!


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/964867771342434304


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## SoFlaModel3 (Apr 15, 2017)

Michael Russo said:


> And January statistics don't look good...
> see the embedded tweet in Alex Roy's Tweet with the graph!
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/964867771342434304


Well after seeing it in person, I found it very underwhelming in design.


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## Michael Russo (Oct 15, 2016)

SoFlaModel3 said:


> Well after seeing it in person, I found it very underwhelming in design.


Underwhelming is soooo much more sweet than fugly!!! And yet...


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## DrPhyzx (Nov 20, 2017)

Michael Russo said:


> And January statistics don't look good...
> see the embedded tweet in Alex Roy's Tweet with the graph!
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/964867771342434304


The plant had planned down-time during the holiday season, which put a dent in January supply. Inventory is pretty low, so dealers just didn't have them to sell, as noted in the press:

https://www.autoblog.com/2018/02/16/tesla-model-3-delays-tax-credit-concerns-spur-sales-of-chevy-bo/

There certainly are a lot in CA, though. The lot I park in at work holds maybe 100 cars and there are 3 bolts (as many as there are Model S).


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## Michael Russo (Oct 15, 2016)

This is insane... 

I mean, nothing against the Bolt... yet... only EV?! 

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/967399217244393473


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## Daliman (Apr 20, 2016)

Yes the auto press either is hoping the Model 3 goes away or just doesn't know what to make of it. While Tesla doesn't need to advertise it is a shame that the brilliant engineering and design behind the 3 is not recognized more broadly.


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## garsh (Apr 4, 2016)

Michael Russo said:


> This is insane...
> I mean, nothing against the Bolt... yet... only EV?!


Relax. 

First, I think we can all agree that - ignoring Tesla - it's not unreasonable to consider the Bolt to be the best of the other EVs.

Second, Consumer Reports _has_ tested the Model S. But they categorize it as an "Ultra Luxury Car". It came in 1st out of 6 cars tested in that category.

Third, they list the 2018 Model 3 as "in test". I assume this simply means that they weren't able to get their hands on one early enough for the current top-10 list. I'll be surprised if it doesn't appear in that list next year.


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## Maevra (Oct 24, 2017)

garsh said:


> Relax.
> 
> First, I think we can all agree that - ignoring Tesla - it's not unreasonable to consider the Bolt to be the best of the other EVs.
> 
> ...


I hope so! Sorta biased view, but the 3 is a much better car in every regard except: 
1) immediate availability 
2) hatchback storage 
3) price (only because SR is not available yet)


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## SoFlaModel3 (Apr 15, 2017)

Saw my first Bolt in Florida after seeing a few in California. Really not a fan. It just looks cheap in my opinion.

Where it's general consensus that Model 3 looks better in person than in pictures, I find it to be the exact opposite for the Bolt... much worse in person.


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## Travelwolf (Jun 8, 2016)

Interesting Chevy Bolt encounter....

I was down at the lake this weekend at a work conference and decided to stop in at my favorite hotel while I was there to see if they would be interested in taking advantage of the Tesla destination charger program (the convention was about 30 minutes past them). While there I discovered there was no need b/c a new supercharger went in less than a block away (yay) but I stopped in to say hi anyway since I was in the area (family owned, very nice). While there, I ran into a guy who had just bought a Chevy Bolt (it was not awful looking in person but not nice looking either- it looks better in pictures) and started chatting with him about it- he was NOT happy. I want to see EVs in general succeed, but I had to share what he told me.....

He said he lived less than 20 miles from the hotel where we were sitting in the lobby, but he had been there all night, forced to get a room because he ran out of charge. He had purchased the Bolt on the 238 mile per charge specs he was given (and that are all over the internet). He went to pick it up (the closest place was just under 200 miles from his home) and asked that it be fully charged for him to make his trek home, he should have had plenty of range for this. He arrived and finalized the purchased, ensured it was in fact at 100%, and left for home. The location where he picked it up was 170 miles from the hotel we were at. Anyone want to do the math on that? It sucks! He had to go 190 miles to get home, which should have left him a 40-50 mile cushion, yet he only made it 170 miles on a fully charged battery! He said he was at 0% when he got off the highway and stopped at the first hotel he saw, afraid he wasn't going to make it. The hotel owners were nice enough to let him plug into their outdoor outlet to charge, but all they had was the 120 volt outlet!!!! So, this poor guy had to rent a room and stay the night while his brand spanking new EV charged up for at least 10 hours at a lightning speed of 2 miles per hour of charge for him to get home because there is NO infrastructure within 30 miles for a non Tesla EV. He said he plans to go home and fully charge (however long it takes) then return the car. He had already talked to his sales rep and told them as much, and that they may have to meet him with a flatbed somewhere along the way.  As much as I am frustrated with the ridiculous lack of order in the invite process, I am VERY thankful that Tesla gives accurate & trustworthy specs on their cars!!!


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## SoFlaModel3 (Apr 15, 2017)

Travelwolf said:


> Interesting Chevy Bolt encounter....
> 
> I was down at the lake this weekend at a work conference and decided to stop in at my favorite hotel while I was there to see if they would be interested in taking advantage of the Tesla destination charger program (the convention was about 30 minutes past them). While there I discovered there was no need b/c a new supercharger went in less than a block away (yay) but I stopped in to say hi anyway since I was in the area (family owned, very nice). While there, I ran into a guy who had just bought a Chevy Bolt (it was not awful looking in person but not nice looking either- it looks better in pictures) and started chatting with him about it- he was NOT happy. I want to see EVs in general succeed, but I had to share what he told me.....
> 
> He said he lived less than 20 miles from the hotel where we were sitting in the lobby, but he had been there all night, forced to get a room because he ran out of charge. He had purchased the Bolt on the 238 mile per charge specs he was given (and that are all over the internet). He went to pick it up (the closest place was just under 200 miles from his home) and asked that it be fully charged for him to make his trek home, he should have had plenty of range for this. He arrived and finalized the purchased, ensured it was in fact at 100%, and left for home. The location where he picked it up was 170 miles from the hotel we were at. Anyone want to do the math on that? It sucks! He had to go 190 miles to get home, which should have left him a 40-50 mile cushion, yet he only made it 170 miles on a fully charged battery! He said he was at 0% when he got off the highway and stopped at the first hotel he saw, afraid he wasn't going to make it. The hotel owners were nice enough to let him plug into their outdoor outlet to charge, but all they had was the 120 volt outlet!!!! So, this poor guy had to rent a room and stay the night while his brand spanking new EV charged up for at least 10 hours at a lightning speed of 2 miles per hour of charge for him to get home because there is NO infrastructure within 30 miles for a non Tesla EV. He said he plans to go home and fully charge (however long it takes) then return the car. He had already talked to his sales rep and told them as much, and that they may have to meet him with a flatbed somewhere along the way.  As much as I am frustrated with the ridiculous lack of order in the invite process, I am VERY thankful that Tesla gives accurate & trustworthy specs on their cars!!!


Yikes! Well I'm not shocked. 238 is probably doable on the Bolt but in "perfect conditions". No different than my Model 3 having a 310 mile range and realistically I would guess I could get 270-275 in normal driving.


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## MichelT3 (Nov 16, 2016)

Don't know if it already has been announced here, but the sale of Bolt (Opel Ampera-e) has been ended here in Europe before it actually has begun. GM apparently doesn't want to deliver them to their former daughter-company any more.
I rest my case.


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## Michael Russo (Oct 15, 2016)

MichelT3 said:


> Don't know if it already has been announced here, but the sale of Bolt (Opel Ampera-e) has been ended here in Europe before it actually has begun. GM apparently doesn't want to deliver them to their former daughter-company any more.
> I rest my case.


See post #341 above...


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## MichelT3 (Nov 16, 2016)

Michael Russo said:


> See post #341 above...


Sorry, missed that.

Is it going to be VW then for us in Europe?


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## Michael Russo (Oct 15, 2016)

MichelT3 said:


> Sorry, missed that.
> 
> Is it going to be VW then for us in Europe?


If you mean as a fallback to Model 3, as stated earlier, I don't truly want to consider that... yet...


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## Michael Russo (Oct 15, 2016)

Interesting technical comparison between the Bolt and Model 3 batteries for the tech savvies!

https://insideevs.com/gm-versus-tesla-bolt-ev-tesla-model-3-battery-packs-compared/


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## chopr147 (May 23, 2016)

Michael Russo said:


> Opel decommercializes the European version to the Bolt, the Ampera-e... no big loss for me..


That's to bad. I thought GM was at least going to make a decent attempt at making the Bolt successful. Call me gullible


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## Michael Russo (Oct 15, 2016)

chopr147 said:


> That's to bad. I thought GM was at least going to make a decent attempt at making the Bolt successful. Call me gullible


Remember, Opel now belongs to PSA, not GM anymore, not that I expect GM did anything to induce PSA to keep the Ampera-e alive in Europe...


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## Nilroc (Sep 3, 2017)




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