# Cost savings are real... really real!



## SoFlaModel3

I have now had my Model 3 for 4 months and the cost savings are staggering! Anyone who says we're not yet at "cost parity" with ICE vehicles is not considering the full cost of ownership. Not only are we there, the Model 3 blows away the competition. Check it out!


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## RIP_OPEC

SoFlaModel3 said:


> I have now had my Model 3 for 4 months and the cost savings are staggering! Anyone who says we're not yet at "cost parity" with ICE vehicles is not considering the full cost of ownership. Not only are we there, the Model 3 blows away the competition. Check it out!


Furthermore, a significant factor that is often overlooked is the depreciation rate. I recall seeing a graph on Electrek, showing that a Model S easily retains over half it's value after 100k miles, and this was compared to lowest depreciation-rate ICEs - not a single ICE maintained even 50% value after 100k.

People always say Teslas are overpriced, and that they can get a "nice" Chevy Bolt/Volt instead for a fraction of the price. Well, anything Chevy is going to be practically worthless when you try to sell it in 5 years. You'll get most of your money back from selling a Tesla, so it's actually the smarter investment.


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## KarenRei

In US figures our gas is around $8/gal, but residential electricity is like $0,12/kWh (commercial electricity is super-cheap, but distribution fees make it cost more to homes). The savings for driving electric here are insane. Like , for 20k km a year, <$400/year to drive a Model 3, vs. $2k for a a super-efficient hybrid, $3k for a normal sedan, and $4k for a sports sedan.

Buying is no different. With 0% VAT on EVs here, but high, partially-emissions-based VAT on ICE vehicles, you save ~30% vs. a regular sedan and ~40% vs a sports sedan on the purchase price.

Seriously pays for itself.


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## njguy

Thanks for the video. I'm in NJ and I have an Audi A4 which is similar to the Model 3. Premium gas is $3.06 but energy cost average for past 12 months has been $.139/kwh. Same calculations will save me $540 in NJ over those exact miles. 

Your energy cost seems to be really cheap. How is it only .10? Time of day meter? I will say mine is a 12 month average and I took total cost based on Kwh used not looking at time of day which I do have. I anticipate my cost will be cheaper than what my average is. 

I do not drive as much as you but do anticipate 12K miles/yr. Based on that it will be more than a $5,500 savings in fuel cost.


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## SoFlaModel3

njguy said:


> Thanks for the video. I'm in NJ and I have an Audi A4 which is similar to the Model 3. Premium gas is $3.06 but energy cost average for past 12 months has been $.139/kwh. Same calculations will save me $540 in NJ over those exact miles.
> 
> Your energy cost seems to be really cheap. How is it only .10? Time of day meter? I will say mine is a 12 month average and I took total cost based on Kwh used not looking at time of day which I do have. I anticipate my cost will be cheaper than what my average is.
> 
> I do not drive as much as you but do anticipate 12K miles/yr. Based on that it will be more than a $5,500 savings in fuel cost.


Electricity is fairly cheap here in South Florida and there are no peak/off-peak variations. The only thing is that if I hit my cap, anything over the cap is slightly more expensive.


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## NR4P

njguy said:


> Thanks for the video. I'm in NJ and I have an Audi A4 which is similar to the Model 3. Premium gas is $3.06 but energy cost average for past 12 months has been $.139/kwh. Same calculations will save me $540 in NJ over those exact miles.
> 
> Your energy cost seems to be really cheap. *How is it only .10? * Time of day meter? I will say mine is a 12 month average and I took total cost based on Kwh used not looking at time of day which I do have. I anticipate my cost will be cheaper than what my average is.
> 
> I do not drive as much as you but do anticipate 12K miles/yr. Based on that it will be more than a $5,500 savings in fuel cost.


I live in same area as @SoFlaModel3 and his numbers on electricity cost are accurate. Just under 11cents kwh, 24x7. That's after the first 1000kwh of use per month. The first 1000 is a bit less. But homes in S. Fla are air conditioned most if not all months so we all go over 1000kwh.

In parts of the country with nighttime rates, it could be less.

The cost aside, I just like knowing I am not polluting the environment when I drive my M3.


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## njguy

All great stuff. I had a Fusion Energi but felt it just wasn't what i was looking for with only 25mi on electric before switching to ICE so I went with A4 until the 3 came out. Excited about it making the change to full EV! If I can stay with mostly night charging at less than $.10/kwh I think I can realize much of what you get in SoFla. Either that or make my move back down to Tampa or Ft. Myers. 

Love learning and hearing experiences on here and have so many other questions that I know do not pertain to this particular area.


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## JDM3

So I just got my first electricity bill since picking up the M3 (or Super T as my youngest daughter likes to call it). We have TOU pricing with 6.5c/kwh from 7pm to 7am and all day weekends/holidays. My last bill covered the first 34 days of Super T ownership and I have the car plugged in most nights charging from 12am to 5am (I'm actually on an EV pilot program that gives me 2.0c/khwh during that period of time). During those 34 days we covered conservatively 5,000km. I was able to calculate the cost during that time (which also included a/c and other ambient electrical use), and at 6.5c the cost was $82 and the 2.0c pilot rate the cost was around $23. Even if the pilot rate never comes into production, 5,000km for $82 is insane! Even with my extremely light drinking Nissan Sentra, 5,000km would have run me around $500 in gas. Now it would take me 10 years of this savings to get me down to the cost of a Sentra, but you just can't compare the vehicles.

And by the way, where else can you stop at a park or shopping mall and get 50km free while you go for a stroll or pick up your groceries? I don't think I've ever seen someone with a gas can offering me free gas!


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## thril

JDM3 said:


> So I just got my first electricity bill since picking up the M3 (or Super T as my youngest daughter likes to call it). We have TOU pricing with 6.5c/kwh from 7pm to 7am and all day weekends/holidays. My last bill covered the first 34 days of Super T ownership and I have the car plugged in most nights charging from 12am to 5am (I'm actually on an EV pilot program that gives me 2.0c/khwh during that period of time). During those 34 days we covered conservatively 5,000km. I was able to calculate the cost during that time (which also included a/c and other ambient electrical use), and at 6.5c the cost was $82 and the 2.0c pilot rate the cost was around $23. Even if the pilot rate never comes into production, 5,000km for $82 is insane! Even with my extremely light drinking Nissan Sentra, 5,000km would have run me around $500 in gas. Now it would take me 10 years of this savings to get me down to the cost of a Sentra, but you just can't compare the vehicles.
> 
> And by the way, where else can you stop at a park or shopping mall and get 50km free while you go for a stroll or pick up your groceries? I don't think I've ever seen someone with a gas can offering me free gas!


I'm in Ontario also, there are other fees on top of the per kwh rate for Hydro One but it's still amazing! I calculated similar numbers, with ROI of about 7 years versus our X3 SUV it replaced. If the Tesla lasts 10 years at 5k a month the cost is recovered.. people don't believe me when I tell them this!

Are you with Hydro One? How did you get on that 2c program?


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## Twiglett

Its rather interesting. I'm seeing that the Model 3 uses much less energy than my old Leaf.
I've mentioned it before in other threads, but in the Leaf I'd avoid AC or only have it set at 78F, rarely exceed 60-65 mph etc etc
With my Model 3 I leave the AC on 74F at all times and only limit my speed to +5 over whatever the limit is - and I'm still averaging better watts per mile.


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## JDM3

thril said:


> Are you with Hydro One? How did you get on that 2c program?


With Powerstream. They have this APP program that runs until end of February 2019. I actually signed up for it awhile back with no real intention on getting an EV, but after my Dad decided to pass on the M3, I took his order and now I'm benefitting from the pilot rate and loving the car.


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## garsh

Twiglett said:


> I've mentioned it before in other threads, but in the Leaf I'd avoid AC or only have it set at 78F, rarely exceed 60-65 mph etc etc.


The Leaf definitely chews a lot more electrons when you go faster. But I find that the AC doesn't use much at all. I leave my AC on low pretty much all the time, just to dehumidify.


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## Jim Brown

I've only checked once so far, by comparing this month's electric bill with the same month last year. The difference was only $29.48. I don't drive a lot, but when I was using gas, I would fill up approximately 3 or 4 times a month and spend $25 to $30 each fill-up. Seems like a pretty good deal so far.


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## HCD3

SoFlaModel3 said:


> I have now had my Model 3 for 4 months and the cost savings are staggering! Anyone who says we're not yet at "cost parity" with ICE vehicles is not considering the full cost of ownership. Not only are we there, the Model 3 blows away the competition. Check it out!


Thanks very much for the video SoFla. I'm at 25 cents per kWh here in Ma so my savings aren't as good as yours. My utility up here told that the summer rates start July 1st so then my savings will be more in line with yours. Rate goes to 11 cents per kWh.


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## Mr. Spacely

I have a free charger at work, and at the mall we go to, and at our favorite restaurant. I only "top off" a bit at home on rare occasions. So I'm saving about $2,500 per year on gas and oil changes...


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## teletype

HCD3 said:


> Thanks very much for the video SoFla. I'm at 25 cents per kWh here in Ma so my savings aren't as good as yours. My utility up here told that the summer rates start July 1st so then my savings will be more in line with yours. Rate goes to 11 cents per kWh.


Are you sure about that rate? Which utility do you have? I have Eversource in Waltham and have never had rates like that. The delivery charge alone is about 11.5 cents/kWh and does not change during the summer, while the supply charge does vary. I could see the supply charge going to 11 cents, but not the total supply + delivery. If it's your supply charge dropping to 11 cents, you can do better than that year round. While my power is delivered by Eversource, I use Town Square Energy as a supplier, at 10.07 c/kWh vs the 13.6 cents I paid through Eversource. It's still billed through Eversource and was a painless transition, just filled out a form on their web site.

The state government has a web site here where you can search for alternate suppliers by price, contract term, percentage of renewable energy, etc.

ETA: The site will also show the main provider's seasonal rates. For me it shows Eversource at 13.588 c/kWh Jan-Jun and 10.836 c/kWh Jul-Dec, which is more in line with the 11 cents you were told. ETAA: duh, just noticed your zip code is in your location, checked on the site and also Eversource. So yeah, you can do cheaper than them year round. Not much but it does add up.


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## Nom

Yea, I don't think anywhere in MA goes to close to 12 cents / kwh. Between the actual electricity and delivery its north of 20 cents / kwh. @HCD3, I think you weren't quoted both sides of the bill.

I happened to be monitoring spending before getting my model 3 ..... gave me a good sense for gas costs. I'm lucky that I get most of my charge for free at work. I think I'm saving north of $175 a month on energy costs after netting out my year over year electric bill increases. I'm at 13K miles in 6 months. No oil change. No servicing needed at all. Am going to rotate tires in a couple weeks ... looks like the mobile service team will come to my house. $95. Not bad.


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## HCD3

Nom said:


> Yea, I don't think anywhere in MA goes to close to 12 cents / kwh. Between the actual electricity and delivery its north of 20 cents / kwh. @HCD3, I think you weren't quoted both sides of the bill.
> 
> I happened to be monitoring spending before getting my model 3 ..... gave me a good sense for gas costs. I'm lucky that I get most of my charge for free at work. I think I'm saving north of $175 a month on energy costs after netting out my year over year electric bill increases. I'm at 13K miles in 6 months. No oil change. No servicing needed at all. Am going to rotate tires in a couple weeks ... looks like the mobile service team will come to my house. $95. Not bad.


Thanks Nom. I came up with 25 cents by adding up all the charges on the bill. Very jealous of people paying 10 cents. Yesterday I installed a Sense energy monitor on me panel. Supposedly it will be able to distinguish the difference between all my loads. It takes about a month to get fully calibrated. I also have a KWh meter installed at my NEMA outlet. I know, it sounds like overkill for something that I can't control. Even if my electric bill is more than what I would pay for an ICE car in gas and maintenance I'd still be driving my Model 3. As it stands my electric bill is a bit less than an ICE car would cost me.


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## Needsdecaf

My case is a bit extreme, but not out of line with some of the mileage I've seen here. 

I got my car on 12/28. I typically drive a lot but last year I started a job where I am driving probably close to 30k per year now. I had a VW GTI, which is a relatively efficient vehicle. Not the best for it's size / class, but certainly decent. I tracked every single tank of fuel on that car and over the nearly 2 years I had it, averaged 28.1 MPG. I always do worse than most people, I have a lead foot. Whoops. I traded the GTI for a Model 3 as the GTI was a lease and when I got my new job I was going to hammer my mileage allowance. So I got out early, paid the penalty, and have been driving the Model 3 ever since. Not only does it cost me less to operate, but there are all the other benefits like much less stress when driving in traffic that we are all aware of. 

So the stats. TeslaFi makes this stuff easy to track. Texas is a deregulated energy state, so electricity is pretty cheap. I am locked at a constant $.116 / kWh but I think I can do better when I renew next year. 

Through 5 months of driving, Jan 1 2019 through May 31 2019, I covered 12,889 Miles. Some of my benefit has been the 6 months of free supercharging, which I have used on my trips to Dallas. So that throws things off just a hair. And also, because I don't have another gas vehicle that I track mileage on, I'm kind of guessing at the fuel prices. Each month when I make my record, I look up the cost of premium fuel at the station I went to most, and use that for the monthly average. So there's another variable. There are too many variables to make this exact, but in those 12,889 months of driving, on average, I have paid $147.99 less per month in electricity than I would have for premium fuel. I've saved nearly $750. Moreover, I've saved $0.057 / mile in fuel costs. That's significant savings. 

So yes, while this car is expensive, when you add up the fuel savings, it's not as expensive as the initial price.


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## PNWmisty

HCD3 said:


> Thanks Nom. I came up with 25 cents by adding up all the charges on the bill.


Don't add all the charges on the bill and divide by the kWh to determine how much it costs you to drive your EV unless you wouldn't have electrical service to your house if you only drove gas cars.

For example, most ratepayers pay a fixed "meter fee" or "service fee" that doesn't increase when you charge your EV. You would be paying that anyway so it's not a cost to drive an EV.


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## PNWmisty

Needsdecaf said:


> There are too many variables to make this exact, but in those 12,889 months of driving, on average, I have paid $147.99 less per month in electricity than I would have for premium fuel. I've saved nearly $750. Moreover, I've saved $0.057 / mile in fuel costs. That's significant savings.
> 
> So yes, while this car is expensive, when you add up the fuel savings, it's not as expensive as the initial price.


Did your GTI go 12,889 miles per oil change? I didn't think so. Most people would probably have to add in the cost of two oil/filter changes into the equation. And the time/gas to drop it off and go get it after they change the oil. And don't forget to pick up an air filter if it's overdue!

Sure, you can always put the car on jack stands and climb under there and drain the old oil out, remove the old oil filter and then find a place to recycle the used oil but I would rather spend my weekends doing something more productive or more fun. You still need to pay for and pick up the oil and filters. This is completely eliminated if you have a Model 3.

The "fuel" for my Model 3 is so inexpensive I've barely used the free Supercharging my car came with. I just plug it into the wall at home and I'm good to drive anywhere within a multi-county radius without worrying about stopping to fill up.


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## HCD3

PNWmisty said:


> Don't add all the charges on the bill and divide by the kWh to determine how much it costs you to drive your EV unless you wouldn't have electrical service to your house if you only drove gas cars.
> 
> For example, most ratepayers pay a fixed "meter fee" or "service fee" that doesn't increase when you charge your EV. You would be paying that anyway so it's not a cost to drive an EV.


Thanks PNW.


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## Scubastevo80

Our cost savings aren't meaningful, but our situation is different. We save about $100/mo in gas ($3/gal) vs electricity (20c/kw) driving a Model 3 and S, which replaced a Honda Fit and Lexus RX. We pay $800/yr more in insurance and the actual cost of the cars are more, by a lot. The service costs will hopefully be much less (lexus had $1800 worth of brake servicing over a 25 month period), but the other benefits make up for it. We certainly weren't fooling ourselves going into this, and I hope others do their research so they don't believe a $50k+ Tesla is going to cost approximately the same as a Honda Civic.


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## MelindaV

I recently passed 10,000 miles and did some quick calcs. With my home electricity rate, if charing 100% at home would cost $215. (our rate is just under 8cents all in).
based on my prior car's gas mileage and cost of fuel here, it would have cost $1475 $1,677to fuel it, plus an oil change that was running around $85. So a savings of $1,560 $1,762 in the first 10k miles over 8 ½ month. ($156 $176/1000miles or $183 $207/month)

The annual licensing is $150 higher for EVs, so taking that into account also, it comes to a net savings of $1195 $1,612. My insurance is close to the same as previously, so not worth looking up the exact difference.

ETA - ok, just looked at the current gas prices at my local gas station... and corrected the numbers I gave earlier


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## shareef777

Was discussing this elsewhere online and was curious what others spend on charging (free supercharging not included).

I got my 3 in mid March and put 1k miles thru the end of June. Considering the low miles I didn’t pay much attention to the cost. And I didn’t have the Stats app so couldn’t remember to record every charge.

Then in June I had a project pop up at work and had to put over 80mi a day going to work which has me doing 1700mi this month already (with personal driving).

The Stats app shows I’ve spent $70 for that 1700 miles, which seems about right. I’ve charged for 480kw which means I’m averaging about 280wh/mi, also about right based off the read outs of most of my drives (what can I say, that 240wh/mi sure feels like it’s only attainable by the elderly, or those that drive like the elderly). Almost 100% charging at home and my cost is averaging $.14-.15 per kW.

The numbers indicate I’m paying about $.04 per mi while my wife’s CRV is getting about 25mpg at a cost of $2.50 per gallon so $.10 per mi.


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## Needsdecaf

PNWmisty said:


> Did your GTI go 12,889 miles per oil change? I didn't think so. Most people would probably have to add in the cost of two oil/filter changes into the equation. And the time/gas to drop it off and go get it after they change the oil. And don't forget to pick up an air filter if it's overdue!
> 
> Sure, you can always put the car on jack stands and climb under there and drain the old oil out, remove the old oil filter and then find a place to recycle the used oil but I would rather spend my weekends doing something more productive or more fun. You still need to pay for and pick up the oil and filters. This is completely eliminated if you have a Model 3.
> 
> The "fuel" for my Model 3 is so inexpensive I've barely used the free Supercharging my car came with. I just plug it into the wall at home and I'm good to drive anywhere within a multi-county radius without worrying about stopping to fill up.


That would have been basically one oil change. It calls for one every 10k miles and they ran about $100 at the dealer.

And I wasn't saying that it was the only cost avoided. Was just talking about fuel costs. The other costs are there, or more precisely, avoided in a Tesla. Another reason why we bought them. But as I said in my post, I like keeping variables to a minimum.

P.S. I am one of those crazy people who actually enjoys changing the oil in my cars, although you are definitely right it takes a fair amount of time and effort and I acknowledge that most people would rather not. Myself included on some days.


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## Needsdecaf

Scubastevo80 said:


> We certainly weren't fooling ourselves going into this, and I hope others do their research so they don't believe a $50k+ Tesla is going to cost approximately the same as a Honda Civic.


Well, it doesn't help when the CEO retweets / Likes twitter posts suggesting such.


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## shareef777

Scubastevo80 said:


> Our cost savings aren't meaningful, but our situation is different. We save about $100/mo in gas ($3/gal) vs electricity (20c/kw) driving a Model 3 and S, which replaced a Honda Fit and Lexus RX. We pay $800/yr more in insurance and the actual cost of the cars are more, by a lot. The service costs will hopefully be much less (lexus had $1800 worth of brake servicing over a 25 month period), but the other benefits make up for it. We certainly weren't fooling ourselves going into this, and I hope others do their research so they don't believe a $50k+ Tesla is going to cost approximately the same as a Honda Civic.


I've been pushing that narrative for a long time and get talked down to by fanboys all the time. I traded in a 2018 Honda Accord Touring 2.0. My 3, even after all fuel and maintenance savings will wind up costing me twice the price of that Accord, and the Accord has more of a luxury feel then the 3. Do I regret it, no, I went in for the technology which the Accord lacked significantly (as almost every ICE does).


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## garsh

shareef777 said:


> I've been pushing that narrative for a long time and get talked down to by fanboys all the time. I traded in a 2018 Honda Accord Touring 2.0. My 3, even after all fuel and maintenance savings will wind up costing me twice the price of that Accord, and the Accord has more of a luxury feel then the 3. Do I regret it, no, I went in for the technology which the Accord lacked significantly (as almost every ICE does).


The major ongoing operating cost savings for an EV are for gasoline, and that only becomes significant if you put a lot of miles on a vehicle. Oil changes and the like are pretty cheap.

Other than that, the major savings are to the owners' time. You no longer have to go out of your way once or twice a week to visit a gas station, potentially wait in line, and then wait for the car to fill up. You no longer have to make appointments to visit a garage twice a year for oil changes. I find that to be worth as much to me - and maybe more so - than the gasoline savings.


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## Needsdecaf

Scubastevo80 said:


> Our cost savings aren't meaningful, but our situation is different. We save about $100/mo in gas ($3/gal) vs electricity (20c/kw) driving a Model 3 and S, which replaced a Honda Fit and Lexus RX. We pay $800/yr more in insurance and the actual cost of the cars are more, by a lot. The service costs will hopefully be much less (lexus had $1800 worth of brake servicing over a 25 month period), but the other benefits make up for it. We certainly weren't fooling ourselves going into this, and I hope others do their research so they don't believe a $50k+ Tesla is going to cost approximately the same as a Honda Civic.





shareef777 said:


> I've been pushing that narrative for a long time and get talked down to by fanboys all the time. I traded in a 2018 Honda Accord Touring 2.0. My 3, even after all fuel and maintenance savings will wind up costing me twice the price of that Accord, and the Accord has more of a luxury feel then the 3. Do I regret it, no, I went in for the technology which the Accord lacked significantly (as almost every ICE does).


Funny you should bring this up. The main car that I was SERIOUSLY debating getting in lieu of the Model 3 was an Accord Hybrid in Touring trim. I think it was just under $40k, before any discounts, and included apple carplay, 360 cameras, real blind spot monitoring, and a bunch of other doo-dads that the Model 3 didn't have at the time. And many it still doesn't. That was some $20k cheaper than my model 3.

And for those of you who aren't familiar with the Accord hybrid, it's not like most other hybrids. It has NO transmission. Instead, much of the time, it acts like an range extender EV, where the engine is running to provide electricity, but the tractive power is coming solely from the electric motors. This happens at lower speeds. At highway speed, the engine couples in as it's within the one gear ratio that it has and works for optimal efficiency on the highway. It's quite a clever system as ICE hybrids go and the car ends up driving quite EV like. And delivering 50+ MPG city and highway.

In the end, I decided that I wanted to take the plunge on the Tesla. But it certainly wasn't the most economical choice. That gas savings I see above was at a computed 28 MPG. I would surmise that the Accord would be getting 48 MPG with my use and on regular gas to boot. I suspect that my cost savings would be really low, fuel wise, and I don't think I'd ever make up the $12,500 (after federal rebate) price difference over the life of the car.

Of course, I could have saved a bunch and gone for a mid-range car and easily matched that price but I really wanted the range and the performance....which is something that the Honda doesn't offer, although it's no slowpoke.

TLDR: I didn't do it thinking it was cheaper, but the lower monthly fuel costs and long term maintenance costs are a nice bonus.


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## MelindaV

garsh said:


> The major ongoing operating cost savings for an EV are for gasoline, and that only becomes significant if you put a lot of miles on a vehicle. Oil changes and the like are pretty cheap.
> 
> Other than that, the major savings are to the owners' time. You no longer have to go out of your way once or twice a week to visit a gas station, potentially wait in line, and then wait for the car to fill up. You no longer have to make appointments to visit a garage twice a year for oil changes. I find that to be worth as much to me - and maybe more so - than the gasoline savings.


Here, where electricity is dirt cheap, and gasoline is back up to the $4+ range, the fuel offset is significant (especially coming from a car needing premium and getting 22MPG). Maybe not as much in places with cheap gas and expensive electricity, but for some, the monetary savings can not be blown off.


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## Scubastevo80

garsh said:


> The major ongoing operating cost savings for an EV are for gasoline, and that only becomes significant if you put a lot of miles on a vehicle. Oil changes and the like are pretty cheap.
> 
> Other than that, the major savings are to the owners' time. You no longer have to go out of your way once or twice a week to visit a gas station, potentially wait in line, and then wait for the car to fill up. You no longer have to make appointments to visit a garage twice a year for oil changes. I find that to be worth as much to me - and maybe more so - than the gasoline savings.


While I certainly prefer charging at home, a gas station visit once a week for 5 minutes on my route home was no real benefit (to me). That time gets eaten up by the amount of time I need to move my car and my wife's around for our single charging station at home. Even though this is arguably the same amount of time as filling up 2 gas cars once a week, it's something I've gotten used to and can't say is a material impact on our life. While some people can say 5 minutes a week times 52 weeks times 20+ years equals a lot, the same could be said about our desire to wash dishes by hand... we don't feel the need to eek out every minute of efficiency as it becomes a chore at a certain point.


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## PNWmisty

Scubastevo80 said:


> That time gets eaten up by the amount of time I need to move my car and my wife's around for our single charging station at home.


Do you own your home? And you have to shuffle cars to use one charge station? That seems like poor planning on the charge station thing. It's supposed to be dead easy. Electric cars aren't going away so the infrastructure to plug them in is of lasting value so it makes good sense to not cheap out on installing EV charging infrastructure. [mod edit]


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## garsh

Scubastevo80 said:


> That time gets eaten up by the amount of time I need to move my car and my wife's around for our single charging station at home.


There's an easy solution for that particular problem.


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## Scubastevo80

PNWmisty said:


> Do you own your home? And you have to shuffle cars to use one charge station? That seems like poor planning on the charge station thing. It's supposed to be dead easy. Electric cars aren't going away so the infrastructure to plug them in is of lasting value so it makes good sense to not cheap out on installing EV charging infrastructure. [mod edit]


[removed] Unfortunately, we bought a townhouse 4 years ago (built in 1980) that has an HoA requirement to have anything we do to the home approved by the Board. Our townhouse has a single car garage and a single driveway space. We had a highly recommended electric/solar electrician in our town help us plan given our existing infrastructure. Our electric panel had just enough space for us to install one 50amp outlet, so we ran the 14-50 into the garage and daisy chained another to the outside. We infrequently use the outside, given the Board has stated we cannot leave that one plugged in 24/7 and I don't want to continuously plug the mobile connector in and out. Oh and guess what, they also run 208v to the condos instead of 240v... I probably should have known that before we purchased the unit.

I also have an autistic daughter who may elope from time to time, so I move my wife's car into the garage on mornings where mine was charging the night before. It's easier for her to get into the car with the door closed so we don't have a meltdown around not being able to play outside.

In all seriousness, I agree with you on installing proper charging infrastructure. We were limited, and tried to incorporate the best solution we could given our HoA restraints and electric panel limitations.


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## PNWmisty

Scubastevo80 said:


> In all seriousness, I agree with you on installing proper charging infrastructure. We were limited, and tried to incorporate the best solution we could given our HoA restraints and electric panel limitations.


I see, you do have a real constraint that most of us don't have. Of course, this is not a typical use-case, gasoline re-fueling is generally significantly more time-consuming. At least you get the cost savings!

I would also add, the biggest savings will likely come down the road when the gas cars might need things like brake replacement, oxygen sensor replacement, mass airflow sensor replacement, catalytic converter replacement, ignition coil and spark plug replacement, timing belt replacement, alternator belts, pumps, thermostat replacement, transmission flushes, EVAP Purge Control Valve / Solenoid replacement, etc, etc, etc. And then the fact that electric motors can have much longer lives than gas motors and their expensive transmissions.


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## Needsdecaf

PNWmisty said:


> I see, you do have a real constraint that most of us don't have. Of course, this is not a typical use-case, gasoline re-fueling is generally significantly more time-consuming. At least you get the cost savings!
> 
> I would also add, the biggest savings will likely come down the road when the gas cars might need things like brake replacement, oxygen sensor replacement, mass airflow sensor replacement, catalytic converter replacement, ignition coil and spark plug replacement, timing belt replacement, alternator belts, pumps, thermostat replacement, transmission flushes, EVAP Purge Control Valve / Solenoid replacement, etc, etc, etc. And then the fact that electric motors can have much longer lives than gas motors and their expensive transmissions.


Here's the interesting thing about that: statistically, most of those items are benefited on the used car market, as their service intervals are outside the typical span of the first owner (especially on leases). Most of those are 60, 75 or 100k plus items. Doesn't mean they are less relevant, just less relevant to most first owners.

As we have more EV's sold new, more will be hitting the used market, of course. I'm interested in seeing how robust that market is. I know the cost for a used i3, for example, is dirt cheap. Will potential buyers be scared of owning an EV outside of warranty, even though there is less to go wrong? I'm sure many will fear large bills for battery replacement (however unfounded those fears might be).


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## PNWmisty

Needsdecaf said:


> Here's the interesting thing about that: statistically, most of those items are benefited on the used car market, as their service intervals are outside the typical span of the first owner (especially on leases). Most of those are 60, 75 or 100k plus items.


I typically keep my cars until they are so old they are no longer reliable. I think the Model 3's have a huge advantage here over gasoline/diesel cars. If so, their used value will reflect that so it's a real benefit to the original purchaser.



> As we have more EV's sold new, more will be hitting the used market, of course. I'm interested in seeing how robust that market is. I know the cost for a used i3, for example, is dirt cheap. Will potential buyers be scared of owning an EV outside of warranty, even though there is less to go wrong?


The resale value data I've seen indicates that Tesla are the only EV's that retain more of their original cost in resale value than ICE cars. No doubt, this is due to Tesla's superior battery management that leads to long pack life. By the time most Model 3's are "old" there will be plenty of data as to their longevity. I'm not worried. I've been predicting the Model 3 will have superior resale value since early last year and I've put my money where my mouth is (by buying two of them). So far they have been perfectly reliable.


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## Needsdecaf

PNWmisty said:


> I typically keep my cars until they are so old they are no longer reliable. .


Statistically not the norm, for sure. Personally I tend to get to 100k and then don't really want to do the big items you mentioned (timing belt being the biggest where applicable) plus I get bored and sell.

I specifically bought my Model 3 knowing I would pile the miles on (just about 15k in just about 6 months so far) and knowing I wouldn't have to deal with the above was a huge draw for me. But I've not been in this position in some time.

From some threads on here, seems I'm not alone in this mileage either. We'll see.


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## PNWmisty

Needsdecaf said:


> Statistically not the norm, for sure. Personally I tend to get to 100k and then don't really want to do the big items you mentioned (timing belt being the biggest where applicable) plus I get bored and sell.


That's where resale value comes in. If the car has developed a reputation for being reliable with high mileage, the original purchaser still benefits from above average reliability and a history of below average long-term ownership costs. The Model 3 should really excel in this realm.


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## Needsdecaf

PNWmisty said:


> That's where resale value comes in. If the car has developed a reputation for being reliable with high mileage, the original purchaser still benefits from above average reliability and a history of below average long-term ownership costs. The Model 3 should really excel in this realm.


Agreed. I got rid of my Acura with 108k miles and couldn't believe how high the resale was even though it was 9 years old. But, they don't break all that often.

Hoping that Tesla can keep up the reputation with the Model 3.


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## ajdelange

Cost Savings:
What i paid minus what they'll give me today as a trade in: $34,000 ($10.20 /mi ~ $185.80/da)
Two wall chargers @$500: $1000
Installation of one at permanent residence: $1700
Two Tesla logo ball caps: $90 (one got sucked thru the fan on my backup generator which destroyed the fan but I guess I can't directly attribute that to Tesla ownership)
Adapters for every conceivable NEMA receptacle: $300
Chademo Adapter: $500!
Jack point adapters: $100
1:18 Scale die cast model: $250
Little drawer for console cubbyhole: $35
Spare tire: $350
Tesla logo caps for Schraeder valves: $12.
Floor mats: $300
Solar panels installed so I can charge for nothing: $37,000

Gas Charge if I did all the Tesla miles in the Lexus $537.14.
Estimated traction electric charges without the solar system: $133.36
Estimated vampire drain charges for the 6 months I've had the car: $62.81

Yep, the savings are rolling in!

To be serious for a moment: if you don't drive the car a lot (and I don't) vampire drain can get to be a substantial fraction of the total electrical consumption of the vehicle.


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## Greg Appelt

One thing to remember - all vehicles b4Tesla have their resale value dependent upon purchase price - mileage (implied wear/tear) * perceived value of brand/model. One major factor that Tesla's have to add is the continuous updates. Didn't buy a car with integrated dash-cam - here you go with 3 cameras that activate when someone gets close to your car. Didn't buy a car with turn based navigation that autosteers, warns and nudges on lane departure, has collision avoidance steering and braking (some did  )... here you go - and we'll throw in Dog-mode, whoopie cushions, and a fun driving game... and a free 10% increase in mileage per fill-up. 
How do you really get an estimated TCO and resale value when the product continues to improve? I'm of the opinion that in any form it will exceed any ICE car.


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## Needsdecaf

Greg Appelt said:


> One thing to remember - all vehicles b4Tesla have their resale value dependent upon purchase price - mileage (implied wear/tear) * perceived value of brand/model. One major factor that Tesla's have to add is the continuous updates. Didn't buy a car with integrated dash-cam - here you go with 3 cameras that activate when someone gets close to your car. Didn't buy a car with turn based navigation that autosteers, warns and nudges on lane departure, has collision avoidance steering and braking (some did  )... here you go - and we'll throw in Dog-mode, whoopie cushions, and a fun driving game... and a free 10% increase in mileage per fill-up.
> How do you really get an estimated TCO and resale value when the product continues to improve? I'm of the opinion that in any form it will exceed any ICE car.


You bring up a good point but one that the general automotive marketplace, and the factors that set resale prices such as auctions, haven't quite figured out yet. Generally speaking, "features" in a car aren't really big drivers of resale price on a wholesale scale, and that's what matters. This is particularly notorious in the Porsche world, where it's not hard to spend 30-50% of the base price of the car on OPTIONS. And yet, when they're sold at auction, it's still a 20XX Porsche 911 whether you have base black interior or have paid for deviated stitching out the wazoo. But the opposite of what you mention is now at work in the marketplace. Have something with old tech that dates the car? Makes it worth LESS (i.e. old navigation systems, old single-clutch manual transmissions, etc). Whereas the manual, no-nav cars fetch more because they don't have outdated tech.

Cars like Tesla that can improve with OTA updates should certainly fetch more in the used market down the line.


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## MachV

In Hawaii, where electricity is $0.35 at home and $0.575 at the electric companies fast charger, any car with 40+ mpg is cheaper to operate than a Tesla. This is strictly on a gas vs electricity factor. Insurance and yearly registration is higher on Tesla, but maintenance should be cheaper.


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## Greg Appelt

MachV said:


> In Hawaii, where electricity is $0.35 at home and $0.575 at the electric companies fast charger, any car with 40+ mpg is cheaper to operate than a Tesla. This is strictly on a gas vs electricity factor. Insurance and yearly registration is higher on Tesla, but maintenance should be cheaper.


@MachV When comparing a specific point, there will be some wins for gas vehicles.

Quick to fill from <5% -> ~100% : ICE
Performance vehicles 1/2 mile or more : ICE (currently)
Purchase Price for efficient vehicles: ICE
Total time of long road trips: ICE
Accident repairs: ICE (due to Tesla not getting logistics right yet)
Insurance/Registration: dependent upon location - here in FL EV wins

Total Cost of Ownership: Can be a toss up, but leans EV
Maintenance: EV
Efficiency of power (oil drilling through filling up at gas station and burning it for propulsion - vs - renewable electric generation): EV
* but what about coal... it's "optional" unlike refining gas
Continuous improvement and added capabilities: EV (Tesla)
Convenience of never having to worry about range for daily commute because you plug in at home: EV
Immediate acceleration / fun: EV (unless you spend $$$$)
Not killing people with emissions: EV

Each of the ICE pros has a short life-span.


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## ajdelange

Greg Appelt said:


> How do you really get an estimated .... resale value when the product continues to improve?


By asking Tesla (or another dealer) what they will give you for the car, including all the software improvements, in trade.


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## MelindaV

ajdelange said:


> By asking Tesla (or another dealer) what they will give you for the car, including all the software improvements, in trade.


trade in value is totally depressed from actual car value. The actual value is what someone would buy it for, not what a dealership will offer for trade in. that has always been significantly less than the car's value, but most people accept it because of the convenience over dealing with selling it privately.


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## Greg Appelt

MelindaV said:


> trade in value is totally depressed from actual car value. The actual value is what someone would buy it for, not what a dealership will offer for trade in. that has always been significantly less than the car's value, but most people accept it because of the convenience over dealing with selling it privately.


And the sales tax advantage. You don't have to pay sales tax on the vehicle you sold, and you don't pay sales tax on the reduced amount of the cost of the new vehicle.


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## Needsdecaf

Greg Appelt said:


> And the sales tax advantage. You don't have to pay sales tax on the vehicle you sold, and you don't pay sales tax on the reduced amount of the cost of the new vehicle.


This is not true in all states. But where it is, it definitely is a motivation toward trade in.


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## ajdelange

MelindaV said:


> trade in value is totally depressed from actual car value. The actual value is what someone would buy it for, not what a dealership will offer for trade in. that has always been significantly less than the car's value, but most people accept it because of the convenience over dealing with selling it privately.


Totally depressed? I suppose that means 0. But I was offered about 70% of the what I paid for my X about 6 month's ago.

Now there is a publication called "Kelly's Blue Book.". It lists wholesale and resale prices for used cars of all makes and models with adjustments for condition and mileage. I don't know if they list Tesla yet but even if they don't you can get an idea of the spread between wholesale and resale for vehicles in general and, knowing that the dealer offers around wholesale you can estimate what you might get at retail. But it is still only an estimate. What the "actual" value of the car is what someone ultimately gives you for it.

The real point is that the improvements that come with software updates are worthless. My X gets new software every couple of weeks but, at least as far as Tesla, or a prudent potential buyer, is concerned, have not added any value when looked at in perspective as a brand new X can be had for less than what I paid in late 2018 and it comes with all the improvements.


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## MelindaV

ajdelange said:


> Now there is a publication called "Kelly's Blue Book.". It lists wholesale and resale prices for used cars of all makes and models with adjustments for condition and mileage.


really? Never heard of this Kelly's Blue Book (hey, they should use KBB to shorten it down) you mentioned.


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## Needsdecaf

MelindaV said:


> really? Never heard of this Kelly's Blue Book (hey, they should use KBB to shorten it down) you mentioned.


It actually was called that when it first came out.

Personally I honestly find it overinflated values. Especially trade in values.


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## ajdelange

A dealer won't necessarily give you the wholesale value. He's trying to make money on both ends of a trade in (i.e. when he buys it and when he sells it).


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## MelindaV

Needsdecaf said:


> It actually was called that when it first came out.
> 
> Personally I honestly find it overinflated values. Especially trade in values.


Did the sarcasm not come thru?


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## FRC

MelindaV said:


> Did the sarcasm not come thru?


Loud and clear, @MelindaV, loud and clear!


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## Needsdecaf

MelindaV said:


> Did the sarcasm not come thru?


I knew that you knew that it was KBB. Wasn't sure if you knew it was at one point in time called Kelly's not just Kelly Blue Book.


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## jsanford

KarenRei said:


> In US figures our gas is around $8/gal, but residential electricity is like $0,12/kWh (commercial electricity is super-cheap, but distribution fees make it cost more to homes). The savings for driving electric here are insane. Like , for 20k km a year, <$400/year to drive a Model 3, vs. $2k for a a super-efficient hybrid, $3k for a normal sedan, and $4k for a sports sedan.
> 
> Buying is no different. With 0% VAT on EVs here, but high, partially-emissions-based VAT on ICE vehicles, you save ~30% vs. a regular sedan and ~40% vs a sports sedan on the purchase price.
> 
> Seriously pays for itself.


We need a mouth agape icon. 8-o


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## mswlogo

Scubastevo80 said:


> [removed] Unfortunately, we bought a townhouse 4 years ago (built in 1980) that has an HoA requirement to have anything we do to the home approved by the Board. Our townhouse has a single car garage and a single driveway space. We had a highly recommended electric/solar electrician in our town help us plan given our existing infrastructure. Our electric panel had just enough space for us to install one 50amp outlet, so we ran the 14-50 into the garage and daisy chained another to the outside. We infrequently use the outside, given the Board has stated we cannot leave that one plugged in 24/7 and I don't want to continuously plug the mobile connector in and out. Oh and guess what, they also run 208v to the condos instead of 240v... I probably should have known that before we purchased the unit.
> 
> I also have an autistic daughter who may elope from time to time, so I move my wife's car into the garage on mornings where mine was charging the night before. It's easier for her to get into the car with the door closed so we don't have a meltdown around not being able to play outside.
> 
> In all seriousness, I agree with you on installing proper charging infrastructure. We were limited, and tried to incorporate the best solution we could given our HoA restraints and electric panel limitations.


What voltage are you getting for your nominally 120V circuits. 208 is probably not a true split phase and maybe you have a step down transformer?


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## garsh

mswlogo said:


> What voltage are you getting for your nominally 120V circuits. 208 is probably not a true split phase and maybe you have a step down transformer?


208v is 3-phase. It's usually only used for industrial buildings.
Reference


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## ajdelange

Yes, but it's often used in apartment buildings. And it is used in residences outside the US.


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