# Model 3 without AP?



## Tesla Only (May 15, 2018)

Curious to see if anyone ordered their model 3 *without *autopilot.


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## SoFlaModel3 (Apr 15, 2017)

Definitely some for sure on here without (I do have it though).


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## TrevP (Oct 20, 2015)

Steve L who took delivery in Toronto (the first one, see my video) didn't order autopilot.


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## John (Apr 16, 2016)

I could see someone skipping EAP if they rarely went on the highway, because right now that's where it's most valuable.
Several types of people should seriously consider it:

1. Anyone that spends a fair amount of time on the freeway in bad traffic
2. Anyone who does a lot of long freeway driving, trips
3. Anyone who is slow to react on the freeway, has depth perception, night vision, or other eyesight issues and needs assistance
4. Anyone who can afford $5000 and wants to experience working with a machine learning product

My two reasons are #3 (future age-related issues) and #4.

Machine learning will be the most important and transformative technology of our lifetimes. So while $5000 is very expensive, it's a chance to have early hands-on exposure to one application of it.

We made a family decision to never scrimp on tech and tools. By that, I mean that while we might think long and hard about taking an expensive vacation or buying a fancier house, we always spend on anything tool-related, like a membership to the local Tech Shop, computers, and test equipment. Although it's a bit of a stretch, I kinda lump EAP in this category, since I've been boring the kids with talks about machine learning for a long time now, and I thought it important to walk the walk after talking the talk. And it's beginning to pay off, as my daughter in college is joining a research project this summer that uses machine learning for protein modeling.

But I totally get that $5000 is a lot to pay for a function that has a clear work-around (driving yourself).


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## DannyB (May 8, 2018)

I didn't elect to buy the AutoPilot. Way too much money ($6600 Canadian) for something that, in my opinion, has killed several people. Also most of my driving is in the city so I wouldn't use it much. Also, from what I've seen and read, it's too glitchy right now to be considered reliable. Even Ben Sullins (youtube) said he doesn't think it's worth it. He only got it to do youtube videos. 

If and when it becomes very reliable, I will probably be trading in the Model 3 for an EV SUV anyways. Maybe the Model Y, Ford EV SUV in 2020, or something else. Also, at this point, I'm not convinced the Model 3 has the necessary sensors and fast enough computer to properly handle all the demands of a true AutoPilot system (i.e. not stopping for a parked truck at a red light, hitting a white trailer crossing the road, driving into the cement highway divider, etc.). If they manage to work out all the issues with AutoPilot I suspect the price will drop substantially.


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## Dogwhistle (Jul 2, 2017)

DannyB said:


> I didn't elect to buy the AutoPilot. Way too much money ($6600 Canadian) for something that, in my opinion, has killed several people.


It is so frustrating seeing comments like this. 40,000 people die every year on US roads due mostly to human drivers. If all cars suddenly had AP overnight, and that rate dropped from 40,000 to 1,000, all you would hear is how Autopilot killed 1000 people. *sigh*


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## Maevra (Oct 24, 2017)

@DannyB sounds like for your use case (mostly city driving) AP wouldn't be very useful indeed so, agree, probably not worth the money for you and better to wait for a true FSD system.

However, in my opinion and experience, AP has been VERY reliable *when used under the right conditions/situations.* The examples you gave above are very unfortunate indeed but most of them could have been prevented by the driver paying attention and knowing the limits of the system and the vehicle.


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## Rich Nuth (Jan 25, 2017)

We have had a Model X for over a year with auto-pilot. There was no way I was going to order a Model 3 without it. Highway driving is much less stressful when I can let the car handle the steering and speed with me supervising and ready to take over when necessary.

The important thing for everybody to remember is that auto-pilot is *NOT* a self-driving feature. The driver still has to pay attention and is still responsible for a safe trip. Having read about all the crashes involving auto-pilot it seems to me that driver attention and reasonable caution would have prevented all of them.


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## SoFlaModel3 (Apr 15, 2017)

DannyB said:


> I didn't elect to buy the AutoPilot. Way too much money ($6600 Canadian) for something that, in my opinion, has killed several people. Also most of my driving is in the city so I wouldn't use it much. Also, from what I've seen and read, it's too glitchy right now to be considered reliable. Even Ben Sullins (youtube) said he doesn't think it's worth it. He only got it to do youtube videos.
> 
> If and when it becomes very reliable, I will probably be trading in the Model 3 for an EV SUV anyways. Maybe the Model Y, Ford EV SUV in 2020, or something else. Also, at this point, I'm not convinced the Model 3 has the necessary sensors and fast enough computer to properly handle all the demands of a true AutoPilot system (i.e. not stopping for a parked truck at a red light, hitting a white trailer crossing the road, driving into the cement highway divider, etc.). If they manage to work out all the issues with AutoPilot I suspect the price will drop substantially.


This sounds like the headline buzzword effect. It's proven to be considerably safer than a human driver. It's all about using it responsibly. I use it everyday and wouldn't go a day without it (in traffic).


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## JMart (Sep 12, 2017)

We didn't get EAP mostly for the cost. Even though it's the most affordable Tesla yet, it's still twice what we've ever spent on a car. Also, I rarely even use cruise control. If I have to pay attention I'll just drive it. Besides, this car is AMAZING to drive! Why would I want to let it take over!


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## SoFlaModel3 (Apr 15, 2017)

JMart said:


> If I have to pay attention I'll just drive it. Besides, this car is AMAZING to drive! Why would I want to let it take over!


The simple answer to this is that sitting in 5-30 MPH speeds in rush hour traffic on the highway isn't "fun" or "amazing" driving. That's where autopilot excels and essentially that's what it's meant for.

Anyone that has a long commute (especially with traffic) and/or takes road trips can benefit from the feature.

Anyone that does mostly city driving or doesn't really sit in traffic does not necessarily have a need for it.

I can tell you I never previously used cruise control. To clarify though, I never had Traffic Aware Cruise Control ("TACC"), which is a vastly different experience from having a car that maintains speed and travel distance as well as holding it's lane.


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## JohnMon (Nov 11, 2017)

I didn't buy it because of cost (had to cap the price at some point) and the fact that it isn't advanced enough. However, I'm hoping to purchase it at some future date.


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## Tesla Only (May 15, 2018)

Surprised to see the results thus far, ~40% skipped the autopilot feature. From the owners input here, seems that it is mostly due to cost, which does not surprise me. It is quite an expensive feature, especially for a vehicle intended for the "mass market" and touted as a $35k car..


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## MV92618 (Apr 12, 2018)

Dogwhistle said:


> It is so frustrating seeing comments like this. 40,000 people die every year on US roads due mostly to human drivers. If all cars suddenly had AP overnight, and that rate dropped from 40,000 to 1,000, all you would hear is how Autopilot killed 1000 people. *sigh*


Less than 20 people killed using AP! More die crossing streets in LA


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## Guest (May 19, 2018)

Tesla Only said:


> Surprised to see the results thus far, ~40% skipped the autopilot feature. From the owners input here, seems that it is mostly due to cost, which does not surprise me. It is quite an expensive feature, especially for a vehicle intended for the "mass market" and touted as a $35k car..


Yes. Tesla asks ridiculous money for level2 autonomy feature.
BMW asks 1100€ for adaptive cruise control, hands always on the wheel.
Nissan asks 2000€ for higher trim level, that includes self-steering that is practically on par with today's Teslas.
But that package has more extra features like better interior trim, BOSE sound system, signature LED headlights.
5000$ is more than twice as much as other manufacturers ask for similar feature -- feature which requires hands on the wheel.

S/X customers care less about money. But that is not true with Model 3 customers. I will not pay 5000$ for adaptive cruise control
that allows short hands-off experience. Not even 3500$. If it actually was Level 3-4, maybe. But it clearly isn't. And has never been.


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## MV92618 (Apr 12, 2018)

Worth every penny! Paid and never looked back.


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## Bobby Garrity (Jan 22, 2017)

Have not been invited yet, but I will be skipping it. I want it, but since it's software that can be purchased later, I would rather put the money into hardware options that can't be changed.


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## GDN (Oct 30, 2017)

DannyB said:


> ......, in my opinion, has killed several people. .....


Would you elaborate on this, I do note you said it was your opinion, which everyone is entitled to, but haven't most every one of the accidents proven the driver was chosing to ignore his car and was not doing what Tesla said to do which is to remain aware and in control. Are you really blaming Autopilot? Standard cruise which has been available for 40 to 50 years will kill you too if you choose not to disengage it or take over as you exit the highway or approach an intersection or come up on cars going slower in front of you.


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## boriszima (Mar 24, 2018)

I likely will not get EAP, i rather spend extra $5K on AWD if possible, and down the road, get EAP.


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## Tesla Only (May 15, 2018)

boriszima said:


> I likely will not get EAP, i rather spend extra $5K on AWD if possible, and down the road, get EAP.


AWD was confirmed, by Elon, @$5k for the Model 3.


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## Azthrillhouse (Dec 2, 2017)

No EAP for me. Stretched my budget a little past comfort to go for the LR battery. Might consider using my tax refund to activate EAP next year but like others have said, I feel like in its current incarnation EAP is a lot of money for relatively little benefit.


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## DannyB (May 8, 2018)

GDN said:


> Would you elaborate on this, I do note you said it was your opinion, which everyone is entitled to, but haven't most every one of the accidents proven the driver was choosing to ignore his car and was not doing what Tesla said to do which is to remain aware and in control. Are you really blaming Autopilot? Standard cruise which has been available for 40 to 50 years will kill you too if you choose not to disengage it or take over as you exit the highway or approach an intersection or come up on cars going slower in front of you.


Autopilot should have reacted to the incidents I'm referring to. 

Why did the Model S speed up into the fire truck when the vehicle it was following moved into another lane?

Why didn't the Model S stop for the white transport trailer that was across the road?

Why did You You Xue's model 3 suddenly veer into the median by itself? 
https://electrek.co/2018/05/25/tesla-model-3-unofficial-road-trip-crash-driver-blames-autopilot/

Why did Wei Huang's Model X SUV slam into a concrete highway lane divider? Unfortunately, he died.

Basically, You are correct, the driver must "remain aware and in control." Which is basically the point I'm trying to make. When I drive without autopilot I must remain "aware and in control" so why should I pay $6600 Canadian for a system that is still a beta system? Makes no sense. If it was free I may use it from time to time but right now it just seems too scary.


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## SoFlaModel3 (Apr 15, 2017)

DannyB said:


> Autopilot should have reacted to the incidents I'm referring to.
> 
> Why did the Model S speed up into the fire truck when the vehicle it was following moved into another lane?
> 
> ...


I have used it everyday for just over 100 days now. Never once have I felt unsafe.

You can pay attention and simultaneously gain a convenience.

You remain ready to take over, but don't have to unless the car is coming up to a scenario it's not meant for or throws control back to you for some reason.

I'm not trying to spend your money for you, but if you have regular and long commutes on traffic filled roads this system is absolutely fantastic.

Autopilot and Automatic Emergeny Braking are not absolutes. I think 99% of the issues we see come from driver's that have grown too comfortable and too relaxed and they get bit.

This You You Xue example is the perfect example of that. He was looking down at his phone instead of the road. The car reached a confusion point with a split in 2 directions. It picked right. Caught You You Xue off guard as he wasn't paying attention and he grabbed the wheel with force to overcorrect. Boom he hits the wall.

Those are the types of accidents that give autopilot a black eye meanwhile the driver is unequivocally at fault.

Again not saying the system is for everyone, but if you remain alert it can be fantastic and removes most all of the stress of stop and go traffic or long commutes.

As an example there is a stretch of road on my commute where you move at a perfect 80 MPH daily without issue. It's a tolled "pay to speed lane". At the end you rejoin the regular traffic and reach a choke point. Rather than chance things or have an uncomfortable braking experience I start slowing down myself in 5 MPH increments with the right scroll wheel. This allows me to stay relaxed, not have to do much, but yet ease into the braking rather than having an abrupt stop or possible issue.


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## GDN (Oct 30, 2017)

DannyB said:


> Autopilot should have reacted to the incidents I'm referring to.
> 
> Why did the Model S speed up into the fire truck when the vehicle it was following moved into another lane?
> 
> ...


I agree - if you don't feel comfortable you should not pay for it nor use it. But those accidents are the fault of the driver.

Every one of them avoidable if the driver had remained alert and in control. Especially the X, he reported and even knew the car didn't navigate that part of the freeway correct. It's black and white - noted everywhere, autopilot isn't perfect, it isn't self driving. You can bash Tesla if you want, but the facts are there, these people didn't remain alert and ready or in control.

I drive the North Dallas Tollway most every day in rush hour. TX is the second biggest state market for Tesla I believe, I've seen many model S and X, and seems the driver was driving in most every situation or at least they were remaining in control.

The Tollway used to be our autobahn a few years back before the last 2 million people moved into this area, so now it is a parking lot during rush hour. Thursday on the way home in the left lane next to me I observed a Black S. I swear the driver was asleep. Traffic was stop and go to 20 mph. I observed for 6 miles. Driver never moved positions and had head laid back and to the left against the headrest/door. Driver had hands resting on the steering wheel and had sunglasses on so I couldn't observe the eyes, but never moved positions the whole way. I'm certain the driver was on autopilot and it was slow traffic, but I'm also certain there is no way driver was prepared to take over control of the car, even if they weren't asleep. There is no way this driver knew what was truly going fully around the car. If you take the chance, there are no guarantees.


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## garsh (Apr 4, 2016)

DannyB said:


> Autopilot should have reacted to the incidents I'm referring to.


Autopilot is nothing more than fancy cruise-control.

It is not self-driving
It is not doing any sort of obstacle-avoidance
It doesn't detect potholes or roadkill
It only handles off-ramps in certain conditions
Most of the issues you bring up are problems with Automatic Emergency Braking, not Autopilot. Autopilot is just cruise-control that also keeps the car in a lane.


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## garsh (Apr 4, 2016)

DannyB said:


> Why did the Model S speed up into the fire truck when the vehicle it was following moved into another lane?
> Why didn't the Model S stop for the white transport trailer that was across the road?
> Why did You You Xue's model 3 suddenly veer into the median by itself?
> Why did Wei Huang's Model X SUV slam into a concrete highway lane divider? Unfortunately, he died



Limitation of AEB. Radar has a hard time distinguishing objects that are not moving with respect to the road.
Limitation of MobileEye's AEB (1st generation autopilot). Camera couldn't distinguish white trailer from sky (See Thoughts on the recent Autopilot-related deaths).
Car took exit to right, YYX grabbed the wheel and attempted to move it back left into the travel lane.
WH used Autopilot in a non-ideal situation. Do not trust autopilot in situations where a lane divides. It cannot reliably pick a lane in that situation.
The one thing these incidents all have in common is that THE DRIVER WASN'T PAYING ATTENTION.

These are all situations where autopilot sucks. People need to stop treating autopilot as if it is autonomous driving. It is not. It is just a simple algorithm that attempts to figure out where there are lines on a road, and keep the car between the lines. When the lines on the road get confusing or abnormal, the driver needs to take over.


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## PNWmisty (Aug 19, 2017)

DannyB said:


> Autopilot should have reacted to the incidents I'm referring to.


But if there was no autopilot, the car wouldn't have reacted either! Autopilot is a driver aid that requires driver awareness. It hasn't killed anyone. Cruise control is a driver aid too. I would only say it killed someone if it didn't disengage when requested (like some of the now recalled Fiat/Chrysler cruise controls). I haven't heard similar stories about Tesla's autopilot being unable to be disengaged simply by turning the steering wheel or tapping the brake.

Until we have full self-driving, drivers really need to take responsibility for their accidents, not blame it on a driver aid that they refused to use properly, with human oversight.


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## goto10 (Mar 15, 2018)

There's a fundamental problem with rolling out a technology like Autopilot in that between the status quo of fully human controlled driving and the fully autonomous driving of the future is an area where at times the car *feels* fully in control and as a supervisor the human can become complacent but the limitations of Autopilot are documented. When you make a bet against Autopilot that bet is either being made against a false idea of what Autopilot is or it's an expression of your opinion of your own capacity for complacency.

If you use Autopilot according to guidelines provided by Tesla (hands on the wheel, eyes on the road) it is IMO safer than driving without it while at the same time relieving the driver of much of the cognitive load of driving so that you arrive at your destination more rested and relaxed.

Personally, long road trips were once mind numbing and stop-and-go traffic was infuriating. Now I find them both to be pleasant experiences.


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