# Changes we might see?



## Scott Wilcox (Dec 8, 2016)

Could the 2170 battery be more then just bigger and possibly more dense. I think Samsung talked about their new 21700 battery being able to charge much faster at CES. Elon talked about higher powered superchargers. It seems like the 2170 and Supercharger3 are tied together. Also the new battery guy at Tesla indicated his contributions would be in products in a couple of months. That would be around the time the 2170s are being used in cars. I could see the powerwalls not needing the charging speeds, but maybe the 2170 for cars will be slightly different and charge faster.

There is a link to the Samsung battery on electric.com . My post showed up as spam with the link.

If the 2170 can charge faster then the resistance must be lower meaning they could dump power faster. So then the power from the battery might not limit how fast the car accelerates. Then with power being software limited or limited by the motors the peak power range would be much flatter. You would be able to accelerate just as fast at say maybe 50% charge as a full charge.

Also with the superchargers no longer being free Tesla could now allow you to put power back to the grid or your house in case of an emergency. I think we all know if supercharging was still free there would be "that guy" who would stop everyday at the supercharger and charge up so he could power his house. So Tesla can not add powering your house from your car until they came up with a way to prevent "that guy".


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## MelindaV (Apr 2, 2016)

the size designation (2170, 18650, etc) just talks to the cell size, but there could be any number of differences in their actual make up, so don't think you can use the Samsung info as any basis.


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## Red Sage (Dec 4, 2016)

About _'that guy'_... Tesla Enthusiasts have been concerned about Supercharger deadbeats causing lines and queues and waits and inconvenience for some time -- without due cause in my opinion. I think that Tesla mostly wanted to take care of the _'other guy'_. The one who decides that Supercharger stalls are personal parking spaces and stopped in them without even bothering to plug in, and left for hours at busy locations. I am rather certain that Elon Musk and JB Straubel simply had no interest in V2H or V2G systems at all. I think they still have no interest in that. I believe that the no longer free Supercharger situation has mostly become a sort of placebo effect for investors who wrongly believe that levying fees for electricity will somehow allow Tesla to become _'The NeXT EXXON!!!'_ for electric vehicles. That has probably fueled quite a bit of the recent fervor over TSLA as the stock price has continued to climb. I doubt the expense of Superchargers would ever have been a real burden on Tesla anyway, even with the release of Model ☰. It would probably be less than advertising costs per vehicle for traditional automobile manufacturers. I mean, really -- does Alfa Romeo honestly believe that paying for television commercials for the Giulia will prevent it from getting demolished in sales?


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## MelindaV (Apr 2, 2016)

Red Sage said:


> I am rather certain that Elon Musk and JB Straubel simply had no interest in V2H or V2G systems at all.


Correct - JB has specifically said into a microphone on a stage that they are not interested in V2H/G.


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## Twiglett (Feb 8, 2017)

Red Sage said:


> I believe that the no longer free Supercharger situation has mostly become a sort of placebo effect for investors who wrongly believe that levying fees for electricity will somehow allow Tesla to become _'The NeXT EXXON!!!'_ for electric vehicles. That has probably fueled quite a bit of the recent fervor over TSLA as the stock price has continued to climb.


I think you're correct, some shorts keep plugging away at "all the money Tesla is losing" by keeping superchargers free. So at least now they can plug that hole and maybe do something about the other perceived problem of SC parking.
Two perceived issues for the price of one


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## Red Sage (Dec 4, 2016)

EV4Life said:


> I think you're correct, some shorts keep plugging away at "all the money Tesla is losing" by keeping superchargers free. So at least now they can plug that hole and maybe do something about the other perceived problem of SC parking.
> Two perceived issues for the price of one


Yup.

_"Power without perception is virtually useless and therefore of no true value!"_ -- Ryûken, _'Fist of the North Star' (1986)_​


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## Tom Bodera (Aug 10, 2016)

I think the biggest problem that JB identified with V2G was the battery chemistry. The powerwall chem is different for daily deep cycling where the car is intended for weekly deep cycling.


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## MichelT3 (Nov 16, 2016)

Tom Bodera said:


> where the car is intended for weekly deep cycling


That will depend on how you use the car I think. For me I either use the car not / hardly on a day. Or I will use it for 200 - 350 km on one day. Sometimes days in a row, either of those. So daily deep cycling could very well be the case for me at specific times. I think the car should be able to do that.


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## Tom Bodera (Aug 10, 2016)

MichelT3 said:


> That will depend on how you use the car I think. For me I either use the car not / hardly on a day. Or I will use it for 200 - 350 km on one day. Sometimes days in a row, either of those. So daily deep cycling could very well be the case for me at specific times. I think the car should be able to do that.


It should be able to do that but with increased degradation. The purpose of the long term car design (dare I say 20 year life span) would require a battery replacement. If cars have self driving and safety improvements are no longer driving car replacement than why not 20 years. Owning an ICE car for 20 years meant your safety was so antiquated that it was a disservice to society. 20 years was when ABS, Traction control, Airbags (1999), seat belt pretensioners, door side impact members etc... wouldn't be on the car.


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## Badback (Apr 7, 2016)

There is no reason why the car's computer cannot manage charge/discharge rates in a V2G situation.
But, that assumes that the owner is willing to suffer some "brownouts" when the car decides to reduce the discharge rate.
This only applies when off gird, i.e. power outage.
An external inverter is still required, and it needs to be controlled by the car, maybe by WiFi.

Or, the computer in the inverter needs to manage the charge/discharge rate, bypassing the car's on-board charger when in V2G mode.

These kinds of complications may be why Tesla is keeping away from V2G.


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## Badback (Apr 7, 2016)

Any standby power system has an automatic or manual transfer switch by code. The standby system cannot operate unless isolated from the grid. I didn't forget, but if I told you everything that I know, we would be here for years.


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## Tom Bodera (Aug 10, 2016)

Ok. The true problem is how to have the car connected for daily cycling of the battery to two different systems with one connection to the car. Yes that can be overcome too by tesla but not through current electrical codes. If you want to do only one off home backs that may be achievable.


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## MichelT3 (Nov 16, 2016)

Tom Bodera said:


> It should be able to do that but with increased degradation. The purpose of the long term car design (dare I say 20 year life span) would require a battery replacement. If cars have self driving and safety improvements are no longer driving car replacement than why not 20 years. Owning an ICE car for 20 years meant your safety was so antiquated that it was a disservice to society. 20 years was when ABS, Traction control, Airbags (1999), seat belt pretensioners, door side impact members etc... wouldn't be on the car.


Sorry, but you're drawing conclusions for a specific US-context and about a use which I wasn't talking about. I wasn't talking about vehicle to grid. I was reacting to your conclusions - based on presumptions and specific conditions - about the difference in use between batteries in powerwalls and cars. 
In all kindness, in this new post you are again making presumptions which might be true in certain situations, but aren't the generic truth you pose. 
Please understand, all I'm saying is that the world and ways that Model 3 cars will be used, is much more differentiated than any of us can presume. There isn't one truth.


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## Tom Bodera (Aug 10, 2016)

Fair enough. Not an issue. Just providing info for others that are maybe unaware of what and how it would have to be done and the complexities of doing it. I'm good either way.

All the best.


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## Michael Russo (Oct 15, 2016)

MichelT3 said:


> Sorry, (..)
> In all kindness, (..)
> Please understand, all I'm saying is that the world and ways that Model 3 cars will be used, is much more differentiated than any of us can presume. There isn't one truth.





Tom Bodera said:


> Fair enough. Not an issue. (..) I'm good either way. All the best.


Great exchange, guys, with welcome civility ! Kudos to both!


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