# Confirmed: Performance Red Brakes DO NOT fit 18" aero wheels



## Lunares

According to my "inside sales advisor" (and his supervisor) the 5000 performance upgrade package does have upgraded brake calipers. Those calipers do not fit the 18" aero rims. No mention of the rotors.

"Checking in regarding the Model 3 Performance package!

I had the chance to confirm with my supervisor that the brake calipers are upgraded with the $5,000 performance upgrade package.

He also confirmed that the 18" Aero Wheels *cannot fit* with the upgraded brake calipers. If you wish to purchase a set of wheels with winter tires, the 19" Sport Wheels will fit. I really appreciate your patience while I received confirmation."


----------



## Little1er

More good signs. I called a few showrooms today that told me the same.


----------



## Guest

Also this 5k package will have the larger upgraded rotors according to my ISA whom related that only certain ISAs will be handling the Performance models.


----------



## garsh




----------



## UncleT

Then why was it possible to order the performance version with 18" wheels when it first became available? In my experience, most Tesla employees usually know less than we do.


----------



## psohl14

Probably be cause when they first opened the configurator for the Performance car there weren’t enhanced calipers. Early on Elon made comments saying that adding things like the performance pedals and the red brake calipers would add too much complexity, and therefore they wouldn’t come with the car.

It’s possible that once it was obvious that there was sufficient demand for them, they retooled the performance model a bit to account for the new “Performance package” option they added


----------



## garsh

UncleT said:


> Then why was it possible to order the performance version with 18" wheels when it first became available?


When Performance was first available, there was no mention of upgraded brakes. It *could* be that they've added that later.


> In my experience, most Tesla employees usually know less than we do.


True. I'm holding onto that hope. But if it turns out to be true, then I guess I'll have a nice complete set of Aeros for sale.


----------



## Teslar

just to clear
paying $5k = better brakes
not paying = same brakes as RWD ?


----------



## Little1er

I have a feeling that the 5K package will have better brakes than the "Base" P-model.

My guess:
AWD - Same brakes as RWD
P-Model - RWD/AWD M3 calipers, larger 355 smooth rotors
P+P Model - MS calipers, 355 larger rotors


----------



## Little1er

This was in the model 3 users manual a few months ago and has since been removed:


----------



## JeffC

I got different information from Tire Rack. See: https://teslaownersonline.com/threads/wheel-and-tire-tech.5626/page-4#post-122892

Could refer to the non-red calipers, but the rotor matters a lot more than the calipers.

I actually consider Tire Rack to be more authoritative than random Tesla showroom folks, though I love them all very much. Tire Rack is one of the largest wheel and tire sellers in the world; they work very closely with manufacturers, and they cater to racers for whom the exact details matter a lot.

Also, for anyone who doesn't know, unless you are on a race track, you will not need or notice the brake upgrade. It matters ONLY on a race track. The larger rotors provide more thermal mass and better heat dissipation for greater resistance to brake fade, but ONLY for quickly repeated, high power braking on a race track. You generally don't need them on the Autobahn. You don't need them for American roads.


----------



## garsh

I've updated the title to start with "Unconfirmed".

We've had too many instances of various Tesla employees providing incorrect information. Once I (or someone else) gets their hands on an actual Performance car, we'll confirm this one way or the other.


----------



## Lunares

garsh said:


> I've updated the title to start with "Unconfirmed".
> 
> We've had too many instances of various Tesla employees providing incorrect information. Once I (or someone else) gets their hands on an actual Performance car, we'll confirm this one way or the other.


I'll hope so! It wouldn't surprise me if specifically the aero's don't fit the bigger calipers (i imagine the rim is deeper set into the car to have the hubcap detachable) but that other 18" tires might fit


----------



## JeffC

The Aero wheel covers are about an inch thick. Shouldn't make much difference to the dimensions of the wheel underneath.

It's very possible that the larger rotor of the Performance Model does fit the Aeros, and that the "performance caliper" upgrade is the standard caliper in red color.

All will be revealed soon, as Performance Model 3s start to get delivered.


(Please note: above I earlier wrote "larger caliper"; that should have read "larger rotor". I have corrected it. So far all evidence is that there is a larger rotor for the Performance Model 3, but possibly not a larger caliper for the Performance Upgrade option on top of Performance Model 3.)


----------



## Mad Hungarian

Not exactly definitive in scope, but at least we now know that the larger brakes only come with the Upgrade package:

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1017687152128380929


----------



## JeffC

Mad Hungarian said:


> Not exactly definitive in scope, but at least we now know that the larger brakes only come with the Upgrade package:
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1017687152128380929


Indeed. Still unclear. Which upgrade package? Performance Model 3 or Performance Upgrade option? Either could be considered an upgrade. The former may be less ambiguous since the lower suspension probably comes with the more powerful drivetrain. Kind of surprised at only a 1 cm drop, but on the other hand, more wheel travel is generally better for real world roads.

I get a strong sense they're trying to drive people to the $5k option. I sure as heck would if I were a manufacturer. However some better transparency about exactly what's specified in the different configurations would be helpful as a consumer.

Until then we get to have religious-like debates about interpreting the tweets.


----------



## Mad Hungarian

JeffC said:


> Indeed. Still unclear. Which upgrade package? Performance Model 3 or Performance Upgrade option? Either could be considered an upgrade. The former may be less ambiguous since the lower suspension probably comes with the more powerful drivetrain. Kind of surprised at only a 1 cm drop, but on the other hand, more wheel travel is generally better for real world roads.
> 
> I get a strong sense they're trying to drive people to the $5k option. I sure as heck would if I were a manufacturer. However some better transparency about exactly what's specified in the different configurations would be helpful as a consumer.
> 
> Until then we get to have religious-like debates about interpreting the tweets.


Yeah, after a couple of coffees I'm still trying to debate what the "stronger brakes" means. I first jumped to conclude only Upgrade gets the larger 355mm rotors, but it could also be that all Performace cars get the 355mm rotors but Upgrade also gets bigger calipers. I'd really love to know why this is still cryptic.


----------



## JeffC

Mad Hungarian said:


> Yeah, after a couple of coffees I'm still trying to debate what the "stronger brakes" means. I first jumped to conclude only Upgrade gets the larger 355mm rotors, but it could also be that all Perfromace cars get the 355mm rotors but Upgrade also gets bigger calipers. I'd really love to know why this is still cryptic.


Could be they're honestly still working out the details, but given that they have 100 Performance cars to ship soon, it should be firming up.

His referent is unclear. The stronger brakes still could refer to larger rotors in all Performance Model 3s. I still think that's most likely, along with red colored calipers in the Performance Upgrade option, with the mechanically same, special, low drag caliper across all Model 3s. Sasha's experience showed the standard caliper worked fine on the track with a larger rotor. And we think a previously referenced 355 mm rotor has a good chance of fitting the Aeros.

Too many unknowns right now, but that's my estimate given the limited information. I also think the above would work well both in terms of performance and also manufacturing logistics. It would be a fine starting point along with DIY racier pads and high temp brake fluid change for track use.

Even without those changes, the brakes would be a lot more durable on the race track than the smaller rotor. A mild racing pad would be the next logical step, followed by fluid as a next step.

Mostly I care because it affects whether I get the $5k Performance Upgrade option from Tesla or my own aftermarket wheels and tires at about half the cost. Very light 18s with Pilot Sport 4S should work better than the factory 20s. And I've got my eye on Hoosiers.

It's also possible that they'e chosen a rotor and/or caliper that is so large that it doesn't fit the Aeros, and only the $5k package gets the larger rotors. However that may be less likely if the larger rotor is 355 mm. It would also make a more complex assembly line, which would be a negative.


----------



## Chaotos

I'm very confused.

I configured my order on 6/28/18. My build shows "Model 3 Performance All Wheel Drive, 18 Inch Aero Wheels."
The only choice for upgraded breaks required getting 20 inch wheels.

Maybe I made a mistake, but I will not be driving on a track or over 100 miles an hour. I read that the 18 wheels are better in snow/ice, have a more comfortable ride, are cheaper to replace, and are less likely to be damaged by potholes. Also they may have a slightly better range. Hence my decision.

So l wonder if I am correct in assuming I have the smaller rotors and calipers? I wonder if they are good enough for my driving needs.


----------



## Little1er

Wayne Phillips said:


> I'm very confused.
> 
> I configured my order on 6/28/18. My build shows "Model 3 Performance All Wheel Drive, 18 Inch Aero Wheels."
> The only choice for upgraded breaks required getting 20 inch wheels.
> 
> Maybe I made a mistake, but I will not be driving on a track or over 100 miles an hour. I read that the 18 wheels are better in snow/ice, have a more comfortable ride, are cheaper to replace, and are less likely to be damaged by potholes. Also they may have a slightly better range. Hence my decision.
> 
> So l wonder if I am correct in assuming I have the smaller rotors and calipers? I wonder if they are good enough for my driving needs.


You likely do have smaller brakes, or at least smaller calipers. For your needs, the brakes will be perfectly fine. Upgraded brakes are for track environments and do not enhance street performance considerably, or at all I'm some cases.

As your car is configered right now, your tires are the limiting factor for stopping the car


----------



## Chaotos

So at some point I could upgrade to higher performance tires to fit the 18 wheels?


----------



## Little1er

Wayne Phillips said:


> So at some point I could upgrade to higher performance tires to fit the 18 wheels?


Absolutely. And as you intend to drive the car, I expect you would never notice the need for "more brakes".

The need for a brake upgrade comes from repetitive high speed stops, esoeciaesp with oversized sticky tires.


----------



## JeffC

Wayne Phillips said:


> I'm very confused.
> 
> I configured my order on 6/28/18. My build shows "Model 3 Performance All Wheel Drive, 18 Inch Aero Wheels."
> The only choice for upgraded breaks required getting 20 inch wheels.
> 
> Maybe I made a mistake, but I will not be driving on a track or over 100 miles an hour. I read that the 18 wheels are better in snow/ice, have a more comfortable ride, are cheaper to replace, and are less likely to be damaged by potholes. Also they may have a slightly better range. Hence my decision.
> 
> So l wonder if I am correct in assuming I have the smaller rotors and calipers? I wonder if they are good enough for my driving needs.


At this point we're all confused by the lack of clarity of the exact specifications of the different options. Some of us interpret the available information as suggesting that all Performance Model 3s (including with Aero wheels) get 355 mm or so larger rotors and the Performance Upgrade option includes red colored calipers otherwise similar to the black calipers without it.

The Aero wheels are 8.5 inches wide and have lower aerodynamic drag for lower energy use and longer range, especially at highway speeds. Possibly more relevantly they have energy efficiency-biased tires.  In other words they trade off some "performance" for efficiency. (All engineering designs are tradeoffs in multiple areas.)

Tires make the largest difference in the performance of any car of any common, non-powertrain modification, by far. Tires are the only contact with the road. They influence all aspects of performance: braking, acceleration, turning (lateral acceleration).

The 20 inch wheels that come with the Performance Upgrade option use performance-oriented tires that may have higher absolute limits and better driving feel than the stock tires that come with the Aero wheels. They may actually be less energy efficient (or not) and energy improvements elsewhere (Silicon Carbide inverters) may compensate. The 20 inch wheels may be "staggered" meaning they are wider in back (10 inch) than the from (8.5 inch) to better handle the significantly greater power of Performance Model 3. Or they may be "square" meaning the same width front and back.

Reference: https://tsportline.com/blogs/owners-guide/the-tesla-model-3-wheel-guide

Some of this is speculation and subject to change, some is not.

If you want absolute maximum performance, you'll want wheels other than Aero (but mostly due to the tires they come with, which can be upgraded, possibly at the cost of some efficiency). If you want maximum efficiency, Aero is the way to go.

Neither is good nor bad. They have slightly different goals. Also the absolute differences are relatively small, perhaps around 5% more efficiency vs 5% more absolute grip.

The main advantage of the Michelin Pilot Sport 4S tire may be the excellent driving feel and response, which is arguably more subjective than either grip or energy. It's about feel. Many people don't care about or have sensitivity to tire, suspension, chassis and steering feel or limit behavior. They miss one of life's great pleasures, IMO.


----------



## JeffC

Wayne Phillips said:


> So at some point I could upgrade to higher performance tires to fit the 18 wheels?


Only if you want to possibly sacrifice some energy efficiency for more grip and better feel. All things in engineering are a tradeoff. Depends on your goals.

If you do change tires on Aero and want better performance, the Michelin Pilot Sport 4S may be an excellent choice. Since it's available in 235/45-18 it has a version that will fit the Aero wheel. 4S is what the factory 20s use and is widely regarded to be one of the best street performance tires. Note that it's a summer tire. Won't work well in snow or ice. Should be ok in rain.


----------



## Bokonon

JeffC said:


> At this point we're all confused by the lack of clarity of the exact specifications of the different options. Some of us interpret the available information as suggesting that all Performance Model 3s (including with Aero wheels) get 355 mm or so larger rotors and the Performance Upgrade option includes red colored calipers otherwise similar to the black calipers without it.


I don't know whether this clarifies anything, but.... according to the official Tesla Twitter account, the base Performance (non-upgrade) car gets the same braking system as RWD and standard AWD:


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1017909851727335424
...and the Performance upgrade gives you this:


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1017799473324388352


----------



## JeffC

Bokonon said:


> I don't know whether this clarifies anything, but.... according to the official Tesla Twitter account, the base Performance (non-upgrade) car gets the same braking system as RWD and standard AWD:
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1017909851727335424
> ...and the Performance upgrade gives you this:
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1017799473324388352


Thanks so much for finding those, Bokonon! Still some unanswered questions like whether the Aeros would fit over these brakes. They still might, even if Tesla doesn't include the upgraded brake with Performance Model 3 without Performance Upgrade option.

Also, Tesla's answers above are still a bit ambiguous. The standard braking system may also be supplied entirely by Brembo. Brembo supplies lots of OEM braking systems and parts to the car industry. They are one of the major brake suppliers.

Note that the second response says larger rotor, but not larger caliper.

P.S. The picture of Performance Model 3 that Elon tweeted originally clearly had larger front rotors and they did look 2-piece, so this basically confirms what we already saw in terms of front rotors.


----------



## Lunares

Going to start looking for some aftermarket 18" or 19" that will fit for winter tires (since looks like can't get aeros). Any suggestions?


----------



## JeffC

tirerack.com has many wheel and tire combinations. I've bought from them for decades.

Also it's still possible the Aeros may fit over the upgraded brakes, even if they're not sold together. It's still an unknown.


----------



## Mad Hungarian

As I just replied over on the Dual/Performance Happening thread...

A significant question that remains is:

Are the Dual / base Performance front rotors the same size as the RWD ones?

I'm thinking despite the calipers being the shared they may still have the355mm front rotor as described in the early manual.
My data shows this is entirely possible while keeping the 18" Aeros.

However theses new details of the PUP brakes lends weight to the Sales Advisor's comments that the 18" Aeros will not work with them.
But maybe another 18" design will?
Gonna need to get my hands on one of these ASAP .


----------



## JeffC

As soon as a Performance comes to the local Tesla stores, I'm measuring the wheels, rotors and calipers, and caliper clearance to barrel. Also will take pictures to document their type, etc.


----------



## Bokonon

Not sure if this adds any insight, but... @ForeverFree (who just took delivery of a non-upgrade Performance with 18" wheels) posted this image on TMC:


----------



## garsh

Bokonon said:


> Not sure if this adds any insight, but... @ForeverFree (who just took delivery of a non-upgrade Performance with 18" wheels) posted this image on TMC


Unfortunately, it doesn't help. The non-upgrade Performance comes with the 18" wheels, and no other choice.


----------



## Guest

Bokonon said:


> Not sure if this adds any insight, but... @ForeverFree (who just took delivery of a non-upgrade Performance with 18" wheels) posted this image on TMC:


Thanks for the post... visually confirms another piece of the puzzle.


----------



## msjulie

Those *appear* to be exactly the same front calipers as on the current RWD car..


----------



## JeffC

Yes, they do, but need measurements to be sure. Particularly the rotor diameter.


----------



## Eigenv1

JeffC said:


> Yes, they do, but need measurements to be sure. Particularly the rotor diameter.


Someone on another board posted a picture of the big brakes on the performance upgrade and there is enough room between the brakes and the 20" wheel to squeeze a quarter. Given the dimension of a quarter, that pretty much rules out 18" Tesla wheels but 19" Tesla wheels should barely fit. The rotors in the rear are huge (seems counterintuitive to not have larger rotors up front). If you want Tesla big brakes, you'll need to opt for the performance package or buy them as a part and then install at least 19" wheels. Of course, some aftermarket 18" wheels may have enough clearance. Also, other vendors will likely sell upgraded brakes for the performance model.


----------



## garsh

Eigenv1 said:


> Someone on another board posted a picture of the big brakes on the performance upgrade and there is enough room between the brakes and the 20" wheel to squeeze a quarter.


That was on this board:
https://teslaownersonline.com/threads/performance-model-3-vins.7702/page-10#post-129054


----------



## JeffC

Eigenv1 said:


> Someone on another board posted a picture of the big brakes on the performance upgrade and there is enough room between the brakes and the 20" wheel to squeeze a quarter. Given the dimension of a quarter, that pretty much rules out 18" Tesla wheels but 19" Tesla wheels should barely fit. The rotors in the rear are huge (seems counterintuitive to not have larger rotors up front). If you want Tesla big brakes, you'll need to opt for the performance package or buy them as a part and then install at least 19" wheels. Of course, some aftermarket 18" wheels may have enough clearance. Also, other vendors will likely sell upgraded brakes for the performance model.


I made pretty good measurements yesterday. Posted them with pictures on the other thread: https://teslaownersonline.com/threads/that-5k-performance-upgrade-option-part-deux.7745


----------



## JeffC

I've added imperfect, but probably good enough, measurements of the Aero wheel at: https://teslaownersonline.com/threa...rade-option-part-deux.7745/page-4#post-134689

It does appear that Aeros would not fit the PUO rear brakes.


----------



## garsh

I realized today that I own a set of Aero wheels, so I am able to take some measurements. 
I used the two-stick method - take two sticks that are smaller than the diameter to be measured, slide them against each other until they touch the diameter to be measured. Mark/clamp them, then measure the sticks.

Measurements are in inches. My apologies, @Mad Hungarian  Accuracy is hopefully 1/16".

At mounting face, diameter is 16.5".
About 1/8" from the face, there is a little "bead" that temporarily decreases diameter to 16 7/16".
It goes right back to 16.5"
Over the next ~3.5" of wheel width, the diameter tapers to 17 1/8".

That should take care of the area where the caliper resides.

So, does anybody have a measurement for how far the performance upgrade brakes extend from the hub centerline?


----------



## JeffC

garsh said:


> I realized today that I own a set of Aero wheels, so I am able to take some measurements.
> I used the two-stick method - take two sticks that are smaller than the diameter to be measured, slide them against each other until the touch the diameter to be measured. Mark/clamp them, then measure the sticks.
> 
> Measurements are in inches. My apologies, @Mad Hungarian  Accuracy is hopefully 1/16".
> 
> At mounting face, diameter is 16.5".
> About 1/8" from the face, there is a little "bead" that temporarily decreases diameter to 16 7/16".
> It goes right back to 16.5"
> Over the next ~3.5" of wheel width, the diameter tapers to 17 1/8".
> 
> That should take care of the area where the caliper resides.
> 
> So, does anybody have a measurement for how far the performance upgrade brakes extend from the hub centerline?


Yes, I measured 411 (16.18 inches) and 421 mm (16.57 inches), front and rear effective diameter to the outside of the Performance Upgrade option (PUO) caliper at:

https://teslaownersonline.com/threa...rade-option-part-deux.7745/page-2#post-129927

The 16.5 that you measured for the Aero barrel inner diameter would probably not fit at the rear.

This also generally agrees with my measurements of the Aero wheel at:

https://teslaownersonline.com/threa...rade-option-part-deux.7745/page-4#post-134689

16.5 inches is about 419 mm, which is near to what I measured also.


----------



## garsh

While I cannot use my two-stick method towards the face of the wheel, it appears to remain at 16.5" diameter for 1.25" from the bead, with no visible taper.


----------



## JeffC

garsh said:


> While I cannot use my two-stick method towards the face of the wheel, it appears to remain at 16.5" diameter for 1.25" from the bead, with no visible taper.


Thanks. The barrel there seemed relatively flat (constant radius) to me there too. By the face, I assume you mean towards the outside of the car; towards the spokes.


----------



## garsh

JeffC said:


> Thanks. The barrel there seemed relatively flat (constant radius) to me there too. By the face, I assume you mean towards the outside of the car; towards the spokes.


Correct.


----------



## Mad Hungarian

garsh said:


> I realized today that I own a set of Aero wheels, so I am able to take some measurements.
> I used the two-stick method - take two sticks that are smaller than the diameter to be measured, slide them against each other until they touch the diameter to be measured. Mark/clamp them, then measure the sticks.
> 
> Measurements are in inches. My apologies, @Mad Hungarian  Accuracy is hopefully 1/16".
> 
> At mounting face, diameter is 16.5".
> About 1/8" from the face, there is a little "bead" that temporarily decreases diameter to 16 7/16".
> It goes right back to 16.5"
> Over the next ~3.5" of wheel width, the diameter tapers to 17 1/8".
> 
> That should take care of the area where the caliper resides.
> 
> So, does anybody have a measurement for how far the performance upgrade brakes extend from the hub centerline?


(explains Two Sticks method to his QC tech holding an optical scanning Faro CMM. Gets long blank stare)

In all seriousness thanks for taking what you have and giving us at least some ballpark numbers to work with.
The bad news is your result - 209.5 mm internal radius at the mounting plane - if accurate would likely be a fail even with the front calipers as I believe we'll need at least 213 mm to be safe. But even that number only gets us past the front. We know the rear is worse.

All of this of course is still approximation/conjecture at this point, need to get a PUO car up here and get some hard data!


----------



## garsh

Mad Hungarian said:


> (explains Two Sticks method to his QC tech holding an optical scanning Faro CMM. Gets long blank stare)


BWAHAHAHA!

Kids. If they didn't have calculators, they wouldn't be able to tell you what 2+2 is.


----------



## garsh

Mad Hungarian said:


> All of this of course is still approximation/conjecture at this point, need to get a PUO car up here and get some hard data!


I think I've talked my wife into a little road-trip up your way. 

I just need my car.


----------



## MelindaV

Mad Hungarian said:


> (explains Two Sticks method to his QC tech holding an optical scanning Faro CMM. Gets long blank stare)
> 
> In all seriousness thanks for taking what you have and giving us at least some ballpark numbers to work with.
> The bad news is your result - 209.5 mm internal radius at the mounting plane - if accurate would likely be a fail even with the front calipers as I believe we'll need at least 213 mm to be safe. But even that number only gets us past the front. We know the rear is worse.
> 
> All of this of course is still approximation/conjecture at this point, need to get a PUO car up here and get some hard data!


So we can change the thread title to remove the 'un' fron unconfirmed?


----------



## garsh

MelindaV said:


> So we can change the thread title to remove the 'un' fron unconfirmed?


That's probably putting a bit too much faith in my ability to measure accurately. 

But... done.


----------



## Ole1

not completely confirmed ? sounds like there is still a possibility that we could put the PUO front calipers on with stock 18" aero wheels ? ? ? Will we only know for sure when someone with PUO tries an 18" aero wheel on the front ?


----------



## Mad Hungarian

garsh said:


> I think I've talked my wife into a little road-trip up your way.
> 
> I just need my car.


That is fan-tanstic news! We await you with both scan tools and sticks .


----------



## Mad Hungarian

Ole1 said:


> not completely confirmed ? sounds like there is still a possibility that we could put the PUO front calipers on with stock 18" aero wheels ? ? ? Will we only know for sure when someone with PUO tries an 18" aero wheel on the front ?


Based on all the info we now have I'm comfortable calling this one










(but we really really need your car @garsh to figure out what DOES fit)


----------



## samson

garsh said:


> That's probably putting a bit too much faith in my ability to measure accurately.
> 
> But... done.


 @garsh @MelindaV @JeffC @Mad Hungarian

if at the widest it measures 17.125" (434mm), we could theoretically add spacers to fit the frot/rear calipers.....

assuming your measurements are on the higher side.

I am adding some ideas from our ICE counterparts






























can we have the "un" back :tearsofjoy:


----------



## JeffC

Ole1 said:


> not completely confirmed ? sounds like there is still a possibility that we could put the PUO front calipers on with stock 18" aero wheels ? ? ? Will we only know for sure when someone with PUO tries an 18" aero wheel on the front ?


Aeros may fit on PUO front calipers, but probably not on PUO rear calipers. See for example: https://teslaownersonline.com/threa...rade-option-part-deux.7745/page-4#post-134689


----------



## RacingBrake

Lunares said:


> According to my "inside sales advisor" (and his supervisor) the 5000 performance upgrade package does have upgraded brake calipers. Those calipers do not fit the 18" aero rims. No mention of the rotors.
> 
> "Checking in regarding the Model 3 Performance package!
> 
> I had the chance to confirm with my supervisor that the brake calipers are upgraded with the $5,000 performance upgrade package.
> 
> He also confirmed that the 18" Aero Wheels *cannot fit* with the upgraded brake calipers. If you wish to purchase a set of wheels with winter tires, the 19" Sport Wheels will fit. I really appreciate your patience while I received confirmation."


Not sure if I understand this correctly unless there is a different 18" wheel, our repeated fitment tests confirm Model 3 18" wheel (including when wheel cover is on) can indeed fit performance brake (red caliper with 355mm rotor)

You may want to check this thread just being posted and comment.

*Perf. Brake Red Caliper (355mm Rotor) Fits Under 18" Wheel*

https://teslaownersonline.com/threads/perf-brake-red-caliper-355mm-rotor-fits-under-18-wheel.8341/


----------



## samson

RacingBrake said:


> Not sure if I understand this correctly unless there is a different 18" wheel, our repeated fitment tests confirm Model 3 18" wheel (including when wheel cover is on) can indeed fit performance brake (red caliper with 355mm rotor)
> 
> You may want to check this thread just being posted and comment.
> 
> *Perf. Brake Red Caliper (355mm Rotor) Fits Under 18" Wheel*
> 
> https://teslaownersonline.com/threads/perf-brake-red-caliper-355mm-rotor-fits-under-18-wheel.8341/


Hi
Thanks for confirming that your upgraded brakes will fit the 18" factory wheels. This will let model 3 AWD, RWD and performance owners to upgrade their brakes other than with OEM upgrade.

The thread is to confirm if the FACTORY installed upgraded rotors and red Brembo calipers would fit the 18" factory wheels especially the rear with its new tear drop design calipers.


----------



## samson

@RacingBrake
This is the factory Caliper on 20" wheels, 
Can you confirm if your brakes is same in measurements to the Tesla Performance brakes front and rear?


----------



## garsh

RacingBrake said:


> Not sure if I understand this correctly unless there is a different 18" wheel, our repeated fitment tests confirm Model 3 18" wheel (including when wheel cover is on) can indeed fit performance brake (red caliper with 355mm rotor)


That doesn't look like the OEM Tesla Performance brake caliper. Can you explain what's showing in your picture?

Compare your picture:









To these pictures:


----------



## RacingBrake

samson said:


> @RacingBrake
> This is the factory Caliper on 20" wheels,
> Can you confirm if your brakes is same in measurements to the Tesla Performance brakes front and rear?
> View attachment 13589


Although Model S caliper was used for this fitment test, I wouldn't expect any difference in caliper profile between S (355x32mm rotor) and M3 (355x25) however, we can further confirm it along with the rear fat floating caliper* as soon as Ken can bring his M3 (w/perf. brake) to our shop.

*We believe it has the same design (piston & pad) as standard M3, except the caliper body which uses aluminum instead of conventional cast iron for a better (more finish) look and some weight saving, so it requires larger body frame to make up the strength loss.

In any case our goal is to develop a true high performance brake set up (front and rear) to fit under OE 18" wheel.


----------



## garsh

RacingBrake said:


> Although Model S caliper was used for this fitment test...




It's the Performance rear caliper that looks like it won't fit, due to that strange protrusion radially outward where you see the quarter in that picture above. It appears to be quite different from a Model S caliper.


----------



## RacingBrake

garsh said:


> It's the Performance rear caliper that looks like it won't fit, due to that strange protrusion radially outward where you see the quarter in that picture above. It appears to be quite different from a Model S caliper.


It could well be the case, however we are planning to make a caliper/bracket similar to Model S rear caliper that can still fit under 18" wheels even it's 30mm larger (365mm vs. M3's 355).










Detail view of barrel clearance - 7mm


----------



## JeffC

samson said:


> Hi
> Thanks for confirming that your upgraded brakes will fit the 18" factory wheels. This will let model 3 AWD, RWD and performance owners to upgrade their brakes other than with OEM upgrade.
> 
> The thread is to confirm if the FACTORY installed upgraded rotors and red Brembo calipers would fit the 18" factory wheels especially the rear with its new tear drop design calipers.


My measurements (and those of others) show that the factory Performance Upgrade option (PUO) brakes will not fit the Aero wheels at the rear. Reference: https://teslaownersonline.com/threa...rade-option-part-deux.7745/page-2#post-129927 and below.

RacingBrake seems to be proposing selling the Model S caliper (and presumably a larger rotor?) for use on Model 3 (front) and is showing it fitting on the Aero wheel.

Note that some non-factory 18 inch wheels may fit the PUO brakes front and rear, due to having a larger inner diameter than the Aeros.


----------



## RacingBrake

In order to avoid confusion between two threads with contradictory result, for those who are interested in *a brake set up that can fit under 18" wheels, *please post further questions here:

https://teslaownersonline.com/threa...m-rotor-fits-under-18-wheel.8341/#post-141515


----------



## Zippy_EV

Great news. Tsportline sales told me in an email their 18" wheels fit on PUO without spacers. (And that they have actually fitted the wheels on a test car.) They now have different skus for different models so be sure to order the right ones. I look forward to someone other than a sales person confirming the veracity of the claims.


----------



## JeffC

Zippy_EV said:


> Great news. Tsportline sales told me in an email their 18" wheels fit on PUO without spacers. (And that they have actually fitted the wheels on a test car.) They now have different skus for different models so be sure to order the right ones. I look forward to someone other than a sales person confirming the veracity of the claims.


Thanks for the updates! Can you clarity: which different models are the SKUs for? Different diameter wheels? Different variants of Model 3 (hopefully not). Etc.?


----------



## Zippy_EV

JeffC said:


> Thanks for the updates! Can you clarity: which different models are the SKUs for? Different diameter wheels? Different variants of Model 3 (hopefully not). Etc.?


You're welcome. It looks like the 18's have one sku shared between single motor, dual motor, and performance. And a different sku for performance with performance upgrade. Just as we would suspect. The pattern holds for the 19's and 20's as well.
Summary: 2 skus for 18's, 2 skus for 19's, 4 skus for 20's (additional pair as they offer square and staggered)

Perhaps once they sell out of the original skus they will consolidate and only carry the model that fits the performance with performance upgrade? Is my understanding correct that there is no reason not to use a wheel that fits the performance upgraded hub lip on the other 3 models?

link to Tsportline as the webpage makes it more clear than my writing probably does.


----------



## Jditom

Just got my PM3 today and tried to put on the 18" OEM wheels.
Fronts yes, rear no but so very close. About 1mm and they would fit.
So real confirmation they do not fit unless you want to file down those square areas that stick up and repaint.
BTW I have a new set of 18" aero wheels and tires for sale!!!!


----------



## JeffC

@Jditom Thanks so much! Very helpful! That agrees with my measurements too: https://teslaownersonline.com/threads/that-5k-performance-upgrade-option-part-deux.7745/page-4#post-134689and above.

Definitely don't file down the calipers! Presumably you're joking.


----------



## Jditom

Yes!
I would not!


----------



## Eigenv1

Jditom said:


> Just got my PM3 today and tried to put on the 18" OEM wheels.
> Fronts yes, rear no but so very close. About 1mm and they would fit.
> So real confirmation they do not fit unless you want to file down those square areas that stick up and repaint.
> BTW I have a new set of 18" aero wheels and tires for sale!!!!


That's great information. In that case, would a small spacer on the 18" Tesla Aero wheels work? If so, does anyone have a suggestion for the size of the spacer and a vendor?


----------



## JeffC

Eigenv1 said:


> That's great information. In that case, would a small spacer on the 18" Tesla Aero wheels work? If so, does anyone have a suggestion for the size of the spacer and a vendor?


The inner diameter of the 18 inch Aero wheel where the caliper would be is relatively constant, so a spacer may not help.


----------



## Jditom

I played with that as well and they still rub even if you did a 20mm spacer.


----------



## Eigenv1

Jditom said:


> I played with that as well and they still rub even if you did a 20mm spacer.


Just how much needs to be filed? And is the spot that needs to be filed structurally important?


----------



## Jditom

I am approximating about 1mm on those square blocks that stick up from the calipers.
Best to pull a wheel off and see for yourself. I do not know if they are structurally important.
Does the caliper expand any when hot?


----------



## JeffC

Jditom said:


> I am approximating about 1mm on those square blocks that stick up from the calipers.
> Best to pull a wheel off and see for yourself. I do not know if they are structurally important.
> Does the caliper expand any when hot?


Yes, calipers expand when hot, and there probably isn't too much extra material on them that's not needed for strength or durability. Modifying brake components is not something that should be done lightly. The consequences of getting it wrong can be severe.


----------



## garsh

Eigenv1 said:


> Just how much needs to be filed? And is the spot that needs to be filed structurally important?


Don't even consider it. Just get different wheels.


----------



## Cbutters

What if there was a way to mill the rim instead of the caliper? :S no? 

Personally, I'd love aeros on my P3D+, but I settled for the tsportline 18" in space gray (just for my winter tire set)... I get the tire size I want (cheaper tires in that size, and supposedly better ride quality) and the hint of gray in the wheels similar to the look when aero is installed. 

I still would be really interested to see people's experience if they do try to file down the caliper just a tiny bit.... I'll be jealous if it works.


----------



## 70cbfa8a

Jditom said:


> Just got my PM3 today and tried to put on the 18" OEM wheels.
> Fronts yes, rear no but so very close. About 1mm and they would fit.
> So real confirmation they do not fit unless you want to file down those square areas that stick up and repaint.
> BTW I have a new set of 18" aero wheels and tires for sale!!!!


1mm off that? I would totally file that down. Frankly those sharp edges are stress points, smoothing them out will make the caliper stronger.

Almost looks like a mount for some mass dampers to prevent squeal, but there are no mass dampers added to it.

Also: Put the lugs in and try again? Why is just the top of the caliper rubbing? Seems suspect. Could also just loosen the caliper mount bolts and take out any play in them, might be enough!


----------



## samson

Alright Here is the OFFICIAL confirmation from TESLA.


----------



## garsh

samson said:


> Alright Here is the OFFICIAL confirmation from TESLA.


nit: Tesla has the exact same message on their listing for the 19" snow tire/wheel combo. While we know that the 18s don't clear the brake calipers, the 19s should have no such clearance issue. I'm guessing this message is there because neither of those wheels have the extra machining required to clear the Performance Upgrade rotor hats. That issue is described here:

Uh oh... Problem with aftermarket wheels for Performance with Brake Upgrade


----------



## samson

garsh said:


> nit: Tesla has the exact same message on their listing for the 19" snow tire/wheel combo. While we know that the 18s don't clear the brake calipers, the 19s should have no such clearance issue. I'm guessing this message is there because neither of those wheels have the extra machining required to clear the Performance Upgrade rotor hats. That issue is described here:
> 
> Uh oh... Problem with aftermarket wheels for Performance with Brake Upgrade


Funny Enough even the 20" has the same message.....


----------



## garsh

samson said:


> Funny Enough even the 20" has the same message.....


It could be that only the 20s that come with the car have been machined to provide the extra clearance.


----------



## samson

garsh said:


> It could be that only the 20s that come with the car have been machined to provide the extra clearance.


If true.... I hope they would have some alternatives in the near future for the PUO Model 3's to discourage owners from going aftermarket.


----------



## JeffC

garsh said:


> nit: Tesla has the exact same message on their listing for the 19" snow tire/wheel combo. While we know that the 18s don't clear the brake calipers, the 19s should have no such clearance issue. I'm guessing this message is there because neither of those wheels have the extra machining required to clear the Performance Upgrade rotor hats. That issue is described here:
> 
> Uh oh... Problem with aftermarket wheels for Performance with Brake Upgrade


Agree, it's probably the lack of 3mm lip issue and not the inner barrel to rear caliper clearance issue with the 19s.


----------



## samson

JeffC said:


> Agree, it's probably the lack of 3mm lip issue and not the inner barrel to rear caliper clearance issue with the 19s.


Got off the call with TESLA...... 
After a 45min call their recommendation now is to buy 20" Winter tires and swap them every 6 months.

Or go after marker of course.


----------



## garsh

samson said:


> Got off the call with TESLA......
> After a 45min call their recommendation now is to buy 20" Winter tires and swap them every 6 months.


Yeah. Not gonna do that. 

I think using a set of 3mm spacers will do the trick. I'm also going to wait for @TrevP to release the next video that shows how @Mad Hungarian solved this problem with his aftermarket wheels. C'mon Trevor, chop chop!


----------



## samson

garsh said:


> Yeah. Not gonna do that.
> 
> I think using a set of 3mm spacers will do the trick. I'm also going to wait for a @TrevP to release the next video that shows how @Mad Hungarian solved this problem with his aftermarket wheels. C'mon Trevor, chop chop!


Yup mee toooo.... waiting for video.. Ian also said on twitter that he had performance improvements with the new wheel/tire setup which he would disclose in the video.


----------



## Mad Hungarian

garsh said:


> Yeah. Not gonna do that.
> 
> I think using a set of 3mm spacers will do the trick. I'm also going to wait for a @TrevP to release the next video that shows how @Mad Hungarian solved this problem with his aftermarket wheels. C'mon Trevor, chop chop!


Sorry I've been MIA folks, really trying to catch up at work.
I think I explain it well in the video, SO much easier when you have the car and all the parts in front of you and the camera is rolling.
Short version is you need a fairly specific 3 mm to 5 mm spacer OR a go with a wheel that has a "universal" aftermarket center bore size that's 70 mm or larger (72.6 mm and 73 mm being by far the most common) that use centering rings to adapt back down to the car's 64 mm hub. These rings usually have a small chamfered flange on the back that prevents them from dropping too deep into the center hole, but in this case you need to grind that off so it can go at least 3 mm deeper into the wheel and not interfere with the 69.5 mm "step" on the PUO hub.
Again, this will make much more sense when you see the video.

P.S.: Fitting 18" to this car is cake as long as you have the right barrel design.


----------



## Zippy_EV

garsh said:


> nit: Tesla has the exact same message on their listing for the 19" snow tire/wheel combo. While we know that the 18s don't clear the brake calipers, the 19s should have no such clearance issue. I'm guessing this message is there because neither of those wheels have the extra machining required to clear the Performance Upgrade rotor hats. That issue is described here:
> 
> Uh oh... Problem with aftermarket wheels for Performance with Brake Upgrade


I spoke with my service adviser in the local SC several times. At first he didn't know but he researched and about a week later told me they actually tested the 19s in house to determine why they wouldn't fit. He stated the factory 19s don't clear the PUO rear brakes due to the spoke design (rather than a wheel barrel clearance problem.) And like others have stated, Tesla will be offering "official" 20" winter tires that can be mounted to the factory 20s.


----------



## JeffC

garsh said:


> Yeah. Not gonna do that.
> 
> I think using a set of 3mm spacers will do the trick. I'm also going to wait for @TrevP to release the next video that shows how @Mad Hungarian solved this problem with his aftermarket wheels. C'mon Trevor, chop chop!


For information TMC members are organizing a fully forged wheel group buy from Titan 7 (not sure who actually makes their wheels; maybe they do) through Evasive Motorsports that will have the 3mm lip and correct hub diameter for both the Performance and non-Performance Model 3:

https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/thr...-block-forged-alloy-wheels-by-titan-7.125962/

Place to go to put down a deposit is:

http://www.evasivemotorsports.com/m...TGY&Store_Code=EM&Category_Code=TITAN7-MODEL3

I have asked them to make a 19 x 9.5 x 35mm for track use. They said that had other requests for that and may make it if there's enough interest. (They are not currently offering 9.5s.)

Basically the wheels are forged, then the centers, lug holes, etc., are CNCed, and they need enough orders to justify the machining set up costs to sell the wheels at a reasonable price. Titan 7 (or whoever makes their wheels) will custom machine wheels for Model 3, but the one-off cost would be much higher than a group buy.

Presumably Model 3 specific wheels will go into regular production over time, since Model 3 is going to be an extremely common car; at least as common as BMW 1/2/3/4 series, based on sales.

That said, @Mad Hungarian is of course right and wheels that can use appropriate sized adapter rings can fit Model 3, which opens up zillions of aftermarket wheels once the adapters are mass produced (or even custom machined). This too will surely happen over time.

So the great wheel mysteries will get solved. Just a question of time. There's so much demand for Model 3 wheels that the time should not be too long.

P.S. This probably belongs more appropriately on the wheel and tire tech thread. Please feel free to move my comments there.

P.P.S. In case it's not clear, spacers is generally not the best way to go. Model 3 specific adapter rings or specific Model 3 machining of hubs are.


----------



## JeffC

Mad Hungarian said:


> Sorry I've been MIA folks, really trying to catch up at work.
> I think I explain it well in the video, SO much easier when you have the car and all the parts in front of you and the camera is rolling.
> Short version is you need a fairly specific 3 mm to 5 mm spacer OR a go with a wheel that has a "universal" aftermarket center bore size that's 70 mm or larger (72.6 mm and 73 mm being by far the most common) that use centering rings to adapt back down to the car's 64 mm hub. These rings usually have a small chamfered flange on the back that prevents them from dropping too deep into the center hole, but in this case you need to grind that off so it can go at least 3 mm deeper into the wheel and not interfere with the 69.5 mm "step" on the PUO hub.
> Again, this will make much more sense when you see the video.
> 
> P.S.: Fitting 18" to this car is cake as long as you have the right barrel design.


Woohoo! Thanks so much for the info. Please be sure to link the video. In an ideal world you guys would publish the adapter ring drawings for the benefit of every Model 3. 

P.S. If I could get 18s for street use and 19s for track use with the Performance Upgrade option brakes and hubs, that would be ideal.


----------



## T Sportline

JeffC said:


> Thanks for the updates! Can you clarity: which different models are the SKUs for? Different diameter wheels? Different variants of Model 3 (hopefully not). Etc.?


Any Tesla Model 3 wheels we offer is currently marked with a 'PPU' SKU when the 'Performance with Performance Upgrade' spec is chosen.


----------



## JustTheTip

I'd just like to know Tesla's reasoning behind that 3mm lip. lol


----------



## 70cbfa8a

the 3mm lip means: There's a chance 18" aero's will fit either with a spacer or after being machined?


----------



## JeffC

70cbfa8a said:


> the 3mm lip means: There's a chance 18" aero's will fit either with a spacer or after being machined?


The Aero wheels will not clear the rear Brembo brake calipers of the Performance Upgrade option. However some aftermarket 18 inch wheels could fit if their barrel inner diameter is large enough where the caliper is, and a hub adapter ring made to clear the 3mm lip is used.

Please see the Centerbore section for information about hub adapter rings at:

https://blog.tirerack.com/blog/turk-t/custom-wheel-fitments

Don't use spacers if you can help it.


----------



## garsh

70cbfa8a said:


> the 3mm lip means: There's a chance 18" aero's will fit either with a spacer or after being machined?


Technically, I guess there's a *chance* that they could clear the rear caliper if a spacer is used to push them out further. The inner barrel diameter gets a little larger towards the inside of the wheel. But it would still be a very tight fit and I wouldn't recommend it.


----------



## Zippy_EV

Not to steal any thunder but here's the video link for @Mad Hungarian - REALLY helpful!

*Note he ran a 18 x 9 +30 wheel with a 5mm spacer along with 255/40R18 tires


----------



## Feathermerchant

FYI My experience with Discount tires is that they will not work on a car with spacers. Don't know about others.


----------



## JeffC

Zippy_EV said:


> Not to steal any thunder but here's the video link for @Mad Hungarian - REALLY helpful!
> 
> *Note he ran a 18 x 9 +30 wheel with a 5mm spacer along with 255/40R18 tires


Thanks to @Mad Hungarian for his excellent examination and explanation of the PUO brakes, wheels and tires!

For documentation, he found that the 3mm lip is because the larger diameter part of the hub which locates the brake rotor extends too far out relative to the face for mounting wheel to hub. It does that because the somewhat exotic Brembo racing rotor is thinner than the stock brake at the "hat" area where it mounts to the hub, and Tesla apparently did not redesign the hub for the slightly thinner rotor hat. (The brake itself may or may not be thicker than stock, but the hat portion is thinner. The fact that the hat can be thinner probably means it's a higher performance, lighter alloy.)

Ian speculated in the video that the folks designing the hub did not talk with the folks designing the rotor or wheel and that's the reason for the mismatch. I would say Tesla probably did not want to redesign the hub for the different rotor and simply has a single part for the hub. Logistically that's simpler. Instead they asked the wheel supplier to mill a recess for the resulting protrusion. Slightly kludgey and untidy, but works, and probably the cheapest solution. It is not the first time a car manufacturer has made an expedient modification, and it probably won't be the last.

At the front he modified a hub adapter ring by grinding off the chamfer, presumably about 3mm deep to clear the lip, and mounted the aftermarket wheel normally. At the back he used a 5mm spacer to clear the lip and move the wheel out a bit, then used a normal, unmodified adapter ring to center the wheel on the hub.

0-60 acceleration times changed from the stock wheels' 3.20 seconds over 4 runs in both directions to 3.15 for 255-40-18s on 18x9x30 wheels. This somewhat confirms the theory that a lighter wheel and tire will perform better. (It's a wider wheel and tire, so not a perfect comparison with stock. Bottom line, it's quicker and should also handle and brake better due to the lower mass.) With the rear spacer, the rear wheel offset would be effectively 25mm.

The aftermarket wheels and tires were 9.3 pound lighter than the 53.8 pound stock. Wheel model was Fast Wheels FC04, a 10 spoke rotary formed wheel.


----------



## 70cbfa8a

JeffC said:


> The Aero wheels will not clear the rear Brembo brake calipers of the Performance Upgrade option. However some aftermarket 18 inch wheels could fit if their barrel inner diameter is large enough where the caliper is, and a hub adapter ring made to clear the 3mm lip is used.
> 
> Please see the Centerbore section for information about hub adapter rings at:
> 
> https://blog.tirerack.com/blog/turk-t/custom-wheel-fitments
> 
> Don't use spacers if you can help it.


Aero wheels only reason to stick with 18", otherwise could go with anything.


----------



## CoastalCruiser

Got a question on part pricing on the performance calipers. (If this is too off topic I can create a separate topic)

I'm trying to get an idea how much extra the premium calipers would cost Tesla over and above what the pay for std calipers for the non-perf Model 3s.

Same for wheels. Trying to get an idea of the cost difference between the 18" and 20" wheels.

I doubt that anyone would have Tesla's wholesale cost on these parts, but I just need the _difference_, so I might be able to extrapolate from retail figures.

(are the rotors the same across all levels?)


----------



## Feathermerchant

Rotors are NOT the same on performance upgrade. They are two piece and the RWD/AWD are single piece. The performance may be larger diameter too.


----------



## Mad Hungarian

Feathermerchant said:


> Rotors are NOT the same on performance upgrade. They are two piece and the RWD/AWD are single piece. The performance may be larger diameter too.


Base front rotors are 320 mm, PUO front rotors are 355 mm.
Rear are 330 mm for both versions, but as mentioned base are solid and PUO are 2-piece.


----------



## Needsdecaf

Kind of a thread hijack....last night I saw a Model 3 with red brakes wearing 18" aeros with no covers. It was dark and I was in a parking lot, so the lighting wasn't great as I was driving out, but I swear that they were the true performance brakes and not standard calipers painted red. They definitely weren't those plastic covers. I thought the stock 18's wouldn't fit over the performance brakes? Were they perhaps the standard brakes painted red? 

Just curious, thanks.


----------



## garsh

Needsdecaf said:


> Were they perhaps the standard brakes painted red?


Could be. The front calipers look similar. It's the rear calipers that look quite different between the Standard and Performance brakes.

The other possibility is that you misidentified some other kind of 18" wheel for the "aero with no covers".


----------



## Needsdecaf

I think they were standard brakes painted red. The rear brakes looked like the weedy one piston sliding calipers with the big hole in the middle of the front side. 

I was keying off the front calipers. They were done quite well with the lettering and everything.


----------

