# Model Y on the Canadian Prairies



## Devons76

Hey folks, I'm new here. You can see from my profile I'm not an owner. I'm very excited about the idea of EVs. I've been reading mostly about Tesla for a few months now and get a kick out of how passionate Tesla owners are, and conversely, how idiotic die-hard ICE fans can be. I admire and respect the roar of a well tuned ICE, and though I have yet to even sit in a Tesla, am excited to feel instant and nearly silent torque. I'm not a huge environmentalist but I'd like to do what I can to help. Buying an EV to drive in Canada on the prairies may not be helping much since our power is still mostly from burning coal. Going full solar is a noble option, but I'm afraid likely out of my budget for the foreseeable future.

I currently drive an 06 Ford Escape. I've always envied the luxury vehicles rolling around for their style and the ability to turn heads. And while I could afford a shiny new Mercedes or Beemer, I can't justify double the price point of my completely capable Escape. Early on reading about Tesla, I was impressed, but again the sticker shock won. I figured a Tesla Model Y was in the same class as my cheapy little Escape but cost 20-30K more because it's new tech. Then as I researched more, I came to discover it competes with the European sexiness... and in most things beats the competition.

So, back and forth I go. Model Y, or a newer SUV, or truck? Maybe even hybrid. I hear Ford is coming out with an F150 that has some electric range. What I could find on it seems pretty useless. Little all electric range and the electric motor(s) are pretty much just there to help towing capacity on a small ICE, which gets no better mileage than a much larger and cheaper ICE. Some may ask, "why not get a Model 3? Or look at a Leaf?" I'm afraid a car won't cut it. We're a family of 4 with a dog. We have a cottage at a lake about 90K away. We fill up our Escape every weekend with food, water, clothes, beer, boat fuel, etc., and I regularly pull a little trailer with various things for my constant lake and home projects. We also have a boat which needs to get towed around a few times a year. I also hit the lake at least once per month over the winter to go ice fishing with the guys.

I guess what's killing me is lack of options. I do have a bit of time; likely a year or more before I really have to get a new vehicle. Not sure why the Model Y is double a Model 3 for what appears to be nearly the same vehicle other than a bit more room in the MY. Maybe it's the engineering involved in giving it towing capacity. I don't know. Very frustrating that there are only subsidies on EVs under $40K or whatever it is.

Anyway, I do have some questions 
- Anyone with a MY actually tow things on occasion? How does it do?
- Anyone here live in a similar climate (-40 thru +40 (104F))? What effects are you seeing on battery degradation vs someone in, say, California?
- Interior space: how does it compare to a small SUV like my old Escape?
- Connectivity: no wi-fi at the lake. Does Tesla use cellular or something? Is there an ongoing fee for that?

That's all for now. Apologies for my wandering rant about being cheap.


----------



## AutopilotFan

Are you comparing used Model 3's to new Model Y's? (Or even used Model Y's?) Purchased new, a Model Y is about $5000 more than the same configuration as a Model 3. Used Y's will be hard to find -- the first public deliveries started in March 2020. (Don't mix them up with Model X!)

My usage is very different from yours. The only similarity is that my car doesn't have reliable access to wifi. The only thing you'll need wifi for is downloading updates, and even then they'll push you urgent updates via cellular data. If you have wifi in places other than your cabin you'll be fine.

Well, you'll need wifi to watch Netflix or other streaming media... but they tell me Tesla has wifi at all their Superchargers. I usually use a Supercharger stay as a potty break so I've never tried it out.

Please ask all your questions here! You'll be hearing from people who have paid their own money for Teslas and used them everywhere and for everything. Well, at least the ones who care enough to hang out in this forum.


----------



## Devons76

Ha. Oops. I think I had the US price of a M3 I'm my head vs Canadian MY price.

AutopilotFan, are you saying there is cell-like service in a Tesla? Guess I can Google it too.


----------



## AutopilotFan

Devons76 said:


> Ha. Oops. I think I had the US price of a M3 I'm my head vs Canadian MY price.


Whew. Model Y is an expensive car but not THAT expensive.



Devons76 said:


> AutopilotFan, are you saying there is cell-like service in a Tesla? Guess I can Google it too.


Yes, the car have a cellular connection and uses it to send driving info to Tesla. That's we get real time traffic data. The ask you to do map updates via wifi if you can.

I'm not up on exactly what data is being exchanged, but I know they'll send a report if you have a collision which includes camera data. They also send Tesla driving data including whenever you take it out of Autopilot so they can make their driving software better, if you give permisison.

The Model 3 and Model Y are less like cars and more like smartphones you can drive around in.


----------



## JasonF

Anyone who tells you that it doesn't help the environment at all to drive an EV if the power comes from coal isn't telling the truth. I can counter that argument quite easily without even dragging dubious efficiency numbers into it, just by pointing this out:

Pumping gasoline requires running a 3 phase AC electric motor attached to a pump. _You don't get to keep that energy, it goes away forever, _along with the electricity used to manufacture and deliver the fuel. So an EV is already making better use of the electricity generated from coal.

If you're thinking of getting an EV in any kind of non urban setting, your first job is to make sure everywhere you might go has enough charging options. It doesn't have to be a raw count of stations in the area - it's simply putting together home charging, charging at the cabin, whether you might travel farther than that frequently, etc.

Once you've resolved that, what you get in Canada is instant cabin heat, the ability for the car to start immediately no matter how cold it is, lack of mechanical failures due to brittle moving parts straining in the cold, or from lack of proper lubrication. And much better driving stability in the snow due to a lower center of gravity keeping the car on the road.


----------



## garsh

Devons76 said:


> - Anyone with a MY actually tow things on occasion? How does it do?


I don't have any experience myself, but there seem to be a lot of videos on YouTube about towing with a Model Y.

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=tesla+model+y+towing


----------



## garsh

Devons76 said:


> - Anyone here live in a similar climate (-40 thru +40 (104F))? What effects are you seeing on battery degradation vs someone in, say, California?


As a former Nissan Leaf owner, I can tell you a LOT about battery degradation. 

There are two ways of batteries losing capacity that we need to distinguish. There's temporary loss of capacity due to cold weather, and there's battery degradation.

Cold weather does not cause any battery degradation. Li-Ion batteries actually do very well in cold weather from a lifetime and degradation standpoint. The problem with cold weather is that batteries use chemical reactions to generate electricity. Chemical reactions generally need heat (energy) in the system in order to happen. A battery that is cold will have less ability to undergo these reactions, and therefore cannot create as much electric power. But it still has potential to create that energy - all the battery needs to do is warm up. So even though your range will suffer during the winter, it will come back again every summer.

Battery degradation, on the other hand is caused by heat (as well as other factors). The good news here is that all Tesla batteries have active thermal protection - they're actively cooled (or heated) as needed. Nissan did not have active thermal management on the Leafs - because of this, Nissan Leaf owners in Arizona in particular had all sorts of issues with batteries going prematurely bad.


----------



## garsh

Devons76 said:


> - Connectivity: no wi-fi at the lake. Does Tesla use cellular or something? Is there an ongoing fee for that?


Teslas use the AT&T phone network in the U.S.A., and Rogers in Canada.

All Teslas come with standard connectivity included. This gives you basic maps and navigation.

Premium connectivity costs $13.99/mo CAD. This adds satellite views and live traffic updates for navigation, and lets you stream music (and a few other things).

https://www.tesla.com/en_CA/support/connectivity?redirect=no
https://www.tesla.com/support/connectivity?redirect=no


----------



## garsh

Devons76 said:


> - Interior space: how does it compare to a small SUV like my old Escape?


Very similar. Apologies for the imperial units. Don't forget that the Model Y also has an extra trunk in front. 

2006 Ford Escape interior specs:
Head room, front/rear: 40.4", 39.2"
Hip room, front/rear: 53.4", 49.1"
Cargo capacity w. rear seats in place: 29.3 cu.ft.
Cargo capacity w. rear seats folded/removed: 66.3 cu.ft.

2020 Tesla Model Y interior specs:
Head room, front/rear: 41.0", 39.4"
Hip room, front/rear: 53.8", 50.6"
Cargo capacity w. rear seats in place: ?
Cargo capacity w. rear seats folded/removed: 68 cu ft


----------



## orekart

Get a new Model Y, some all-weather floor mats, and enjoy life!

I've had to struggle a bit with modifying my 2018 Model 3 to get through the sub-zero degF cold weather and unpaved roads; 67,000mi+ ODO and no regrets. Now that Model Y is available though, do that, it's the obvious choice for a daily driver that can do it all in a winter climate and/or mild overland adventures.

There are indeed some quirks for harsh environments so you'll learn new habits and after a few years the old habits fade away. Data connectivity is a cellular subscription service and without that you'll have trouble using Summon and voice commands... otherwise though the Tesla app works normally to view status and set controls. The vehicle will allow you to manually connect to a WiFi hotspot however it turns off WiFi every time you put the vehicle from Park into Drive; you can turn wifi on with two taps and a swipe while in Drive. Some drivers pack a portable hot air blower to thaw out the window seals and charge connections; nice, but not neccesary if you can plan ahead.

The traction control feels odd but performs better than anything else I've driven. Set the regen braking to low and keep it under 50km/h when conditions are the worst it will do just fine.

The side view mirrors and rear camera are always getting dirty... winter S.O.P. is to clean the camera lense and side mirrors with a snowball.


----------



## Devons76

JasonF said:


> Pumping gasoline requires running a 3 phase AC electric motor attached to a pump. _You don't get to keep that energy, it goes away forever, _along with the electricity used to manufacture and deliver the fuel. So an EV is already making better use of the electricity generated from coal.


Never thought of it this way. Great points. I've seen many detractors whining about the manufacturing process not being green as well. Doesn't hold much water with me. Nothing is perfect. Gotta start somewhere and the little info I have tells me Tesla is going in the right direction. I think...


----------



## Devons76

garsh said:


> Cold weather does not cause any battery degradation


Good to know. I assumed anything outside of a battery's happy zone would cause degradation, and since I live where it'll never be happy I just want to do my due diligence and try to guestimate battery life. But as you also pointed out, the active battery temp management should keep it happy.



garsh said:


> Premium connectivity ... adds satellite views and live traffic updates for navigation, and lets you stream music (and a few other things).


I was more curious from a "command start" perspective. If we ever get back to the office, I park in a lot a few blocks from my building. Was curious if I could start up the heaters and such from my desk if I didn't have the premium connectivity.



garsh said:


> Apologies for the imperial units


No worries! Canada is a mess of metric and imperial. I know my height and weight in imperial, understand travel in KM and temps in C, building materials in imperial, food in grams, but food temps in F. I'm all over the place.
Anyway, thanks for the numbers. I never thought to look up the specs like that (duh). Looks like the MY is a tad bigger all around, just barely.


----------



## Devons76

orekart said:


> winter S.O.P. is to clean the camera lense and side mirrors with a snowball.


:grinning: awesome. Sounds like life in the Great White North. "Why can't I see? Hey, grab some snow and clean the headlights wouldya!?!"


----------



## garsh

Devons76 said:


> I was more curious from a "command start" perspective. If we ever get back to the office, I park in a lot a few blocks from my building. Was curious if I could start up the heaters and such from my desk if I didn't have the premium connectivity.


Yes that is considered base functionality in a Tesla.


----------



## TrevP

@Devons76 
You'll find Teslas everywhere in Canada and they work very well in the cold but like others have said you have to take into account a few things.

Cold affects the chemistry in the cells in terms of power delivery so the battery has to be warm to deliver the performance and charge rates, especially when Supercharging. Luckily the car takes care of that by preconditioning the batter when a route involves a Supercharger.

Heating in the winter uses more energy than you think so expect 30-40% loss in the cold. Model Y has a very efficient heat pump but you'll still experience range loss which can be mitigated by always leaving the car plugged in and turning on the heat in the car at least 30-45 minutes prior to departure. Power to do that is pulled from the grid instead of the battery.

Expect 50% range loss towing anything.

Bottom line, you'll love a Tesla, especially in Canada given the high cost of fuel, not ever going to a gas station again is liberating! But just go in expecting that winter has its challenges but they can be overcome. It's easier to understand once you're an owner because it becomes your new "normal".

BTW, in case you didn't know @Mad Hungarian and & did a Canada cross-country non-stop trip from Twasassen BC to Halifax NS back in February in 73 hours in a Tesla to prove to all the naysayers in the public and media that you can indeed do long trip in an EV in the dead of winter and it doesn't take as long as people think it does..


----------



## Devons76

TrevP said:


> did a Canada cross-country non-stop trip from Twasassen BC to Halifax NS back in February in 73 hours in a Tesla


I actually stumbled across your X-country trip while doing my ceaseless research. That's what brought me here! Great video.

I'll continue to read and ask questions while keeping my fingers crossed the MY comes down in price or the used market starts to exist. It would be awesome to have a Tesla in the garage by this time next year, but I haven't had a car payment in so long I almost threw up when running the numbers the other day. :fearscream:


----------



## garsh

Devons76 said:


> but I haven't had a car payment in so long I almost threw up when running the numbers the other day. :fearscream:


As a thought exercise you should also figure out how much you spend on gas, maintenance, and repair costs currently.
EVs may currently cost more up-front, but they're much less expensive to own.

The Bargersville Police Chief compared the cost of their new Tesla Model 3 to that of their new Dodge Charger.
The Tesla saves them over $6000 USD per year in fuel and maintenance costs.











__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1311046908031492101


----------



## Devons76

@garsh Awesome! I always neglect to factor in gas savings. Maintenance is a tricky one. There are definitely things on an ICE that aren't a concern on an EV (oil, alternator, belts) but things common between both (tires, suspension, glass).

I love spreadsheets! These numbers aren't 100% but at least close enough for a compelling argument. We don't put on much for mileage. I used 14.9 kWh/100k based on something I found for the Model 3. My maintenance costs are actually very low. I change my own oil and I've been pretty damned lucky with this little SUV. Over 14 years and 160k KM I've only had to address an alternator and rear suspension as major repairs. If I had a lemon... well. Most other costs have been various fluid things (not on an EV!) and "noises" (any car). But, they add up. So by my calcs I could see $2500 to over $4500 in savings per year.










One aspect that does worry me some is the level of tech. It's a computer on wheels. I'm a software developer so my concerns come from knowing how ****ty tech can be, not in usage of said tech. Particularly in this climate, I'm worried about electronics just giving up after freeze/thaw cycles. But, todays ICE vehicles are packed with electronics also, so my fears are probably unwarranted. Software often sucks, but the beauty of software is it can be addressed without taking it to a mechanic.

On the topic of software... has anyone had to "turn it off and turn it on again" for their car to start working again?!?


----------



## Chestnut Mare

Yes, all Tesla owners are familiar with rebooting, on occasion. Just hold both scroll wheels for 3 seconds, and voila, reboot. It's usually something small (radio, maps not loading, etc). It's never about the car not starting......

There are hundreds of Tesla owners on the Prairies already, some since 2012. The +40/-40 temperature has not been a major issue, other than the temporary loss of range. Some of that can be mitigated by pre-warming your vehicle on the Tesla app prior to departure. I have a 2015 Model S, and live in a snow belt (albeit, not as cold as Saskatchewan), and have laughed at winter. It's the best car I've driven in snow, with AWD and Nokian snow tires.

....and I just read that it looks like Saskatoon is getting a service centre.


----------



## Vadym L

I'm towing my 16ft boat no problem.


----------

