# Mirror Adjustment and Blind Spots



## PNWmisty

[Mod note: moved from another thread]

I do agree the Model 3 is more sensitive to misadjusted mirrors than some cars and that most people don't know how to adjust or use mirrors properly, but when they are properly adjusted and used you shouldn't be getting ANY close calls!


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## Unplugged

PNWmisty said:


> ... most people don't know how to adjust or use mirrors properly, but when they are properly adjusted and used you shouldn't be getting ANY close calls!


I'm really getting tired of this refrain that somehow, after driving cars and trucks of ALL types for the last 48 friggin' years that I somehow have lost (or never had) the ability to adjust my left side mirror. This really is the height of smug superiority.

The Model 3 left side mirror lacks the necessary adjustment for ME not to have a blind spot. Just because it works for YOU, doesn't mean that everyone else is incompetent.


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## PNWmisty

Unplugged said:


> I'm really getting tired of this refrain that somehow, after driving cars and trucks of ALL types for the last 48 friggin' years that I somehow have lost (or never had) the ability to adjust my left side mirror. This really is the height of smug superiority.


I'm not speaking to_ your_ ability to adjust your mirror, I'm saying most people do it wrong and/or were never properly instructed. There is no reason to make this personal.



> The Model 3 left side mirror lacks the necessary adjustment for ME not to have a blind spot. Just because it works for YOU, doesn't mean that everyone else is incompetent.


All vehicles have a blind spot! That is the reason a head check is taught in every driving school that ever existed as a mandatory procedure before changing lanes! The blind spot is well known and as a motorcyclist I see it manifest itself more often than a driver that only drives a wider 4-wheeled vehicle. I can't count the number of times cars have failed to check their blind spot before moving into my lane.

No matter how well adjusted your mirrors are, you still need to check your blind spot. Every vehicle I've ever driven has one, regardless of how the mirrors are adjusted. That's why it's called a "blind spot" and not a "mirror adjustment error spot".

I will repeat what I said earlier, anyone who is getting into a lot of "close calls" when changing lanes is doing it improperly. I've driven commercial trucks and panel vans without the benefit of side glass and each of the few close calls I've had in 40 years were due to my own negligence. And please don't take my comments personally!


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## Unplugged

PNWmisty said:


> And please don't take my comments personally!


Not to belabor this, but you did state,

_"most people don't know how to adjust or use mirrors properly, but when they are properly adjusted and used you shouldn't be getting ANY close calls!"
_
To summarize, you and others have suggested that if only the mirrors were properly adjusted, people wouldn't be having issues with the blind spot. But what I and others are stating is that this Model 3, in particular, creates a blind spot that the mirror adjustment will not remedy. I have owned cars ranging in size from a Corvette to a Land Cruiser, and I have not had difficulty with the mirror not being able to properly adjust. Until the Model 3.

And since I am joined by plenty of other people with either long legs, or long torsos, there is a problem with the Model 3 left mirror.


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## PNWmisty

Unplugged said:


> To summarize, you and others have suggested that if only the mirrors were properly adjusted, people wouldn't be having issues with the blind spot.


No, I said all cars have a blind spot and a head check is the way to deal with it.



> But what I and others are stating is that this Model 3, in particular, creates a blind spot that the mirror adjustment will not remedy.


Yes, that's normal and usual with all cars. That's why a head check is called for before changing lanes. The Model 3 is not unusual in this regard. On the other hand, If you are saying the mirror would work as expected but it runs out of travel in the direction you need, then maybe service should look at it, it might be misadjusted or need replacement.



> And since I am joined by plenty of other people with either long legs, or long torsos, there is a problem with the Model 3 left mirror.


How tall are you? I'm 6-04" and have the seat far enough back that when I do a head check, I'm actually looking out the rear side window.


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## Unplugged

It is not often that someone denies what they wrote. But you can certainly go that route if you wish.


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## PNWmisty

And that is precisely why it's so important to know how to adjust your mirrors properly. Here is an explanation of the Method recommended by the Society of Automotive Engineers:






I have been adjusting my mirrors this way for over 15 years and I've never found a passenger car that it didn't work on (Model 3 included). Using this mirror adjustment method and usage, you should not be getting ANY close calls.


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## PNWmisty

You may need to have the "neutral" position adjusted by Tesla Service. I'm not going to attach a mini convex because they take up too much mirror real estate and are not necessary.


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## garsh

PNWmisty said:


> I have been adjusting my mirrors this way for over 15 years and I've never found a passenger car that it didn't work on (Model 3 included). Using this mirror adjustment method and usage, you should not be getting ANY close calls.


I've been using that same procedure for 30 years. The Model 3 is the first car I've owned where I am unable to adjust the left side mirror out far enough. It's close - and it's close enough where I'm not going to worry about it. But make no mistake, for anybody who keeps their seat decently far back, it's going to be an issue. I have to either move my head a little forward or a little to the right in order to see the blind spot in the mirror. I never do that in practice though - I just look over my shoulder.


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## garsh

PNWmisty said:


> You may need to have the "neutral" position adjusted by Tesla Service.


Is this actually a known "thing" with the mirrors? It seems strange that the limits of mirror movement would be dictated by software instead of mechanical feedback.


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## PNWmisty

garsh said:


> Is this actually a known "thing" with the mirrors? It seems strange that the limits of mirror movement would be dictated by software instead of mechanical feedback.


I've never had the mirrors apart so I don't know how the mechanism works but I've had to do this in another car with motorized mirrors. The mirrors were designed to give when pushed on without stripping out the motor gears. I have my seat near the end of its travel and I can adjust the Model 3 mirrors to eliminate the blind spot as recommended by the video (and SAE).


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## PNWmisty

All cars have blind spots if the mirrors aren't adjusted properly or you neglect to glance to the side, that's what the head-check is for. With the mirrors adjusted per the SAE recommendations, it's not necessary to crane all the way back, you just glance over your shoulder to quickly check the area between the outer limit of your mirror and your peripheral vision. You shouldn't be having close calls.

The fact that Tesla includes blind spot monitoring means nothing, Volvo has been doing that for 20 years. Even Ford offers it on the F-150 (yes, the truck with big "elephant ear" mirrors). Are you saying any car that offers BSM is admitting their mirrors are substandard?


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## Reid

Congrats to everyone for whom the 3's side mirrors work perfectly, but y'all could do without the patronizing tone. 

I don't know how to reconcile your insistence that we have blind spots because we are too stupid to know how to adjust our mirrors out far enough with the fact that the mirrors will not *physically go out far enough* to eliminate blind spots, but congrats on having overcome cognitive dissonance. 

me, I'll be buying euro mirrors as soon as they're available, and doing my best not to take anyone out in the meantime.


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## webdriverguy

Reid said:


> Congrats to everyone for whom the 3's side mirrors work perfectly, but y'all could do without the patronizing tone.
> 
> I don't know how to reconcile your insistence that we have blind spots because we are too stupid to know how to adjust our mirrors out far enough with the fact that the mirrors will not *physically go out far enough* to eliminate blind spots, but congrats on having overcome cognitive dissonance.
> 
> me, I'll be buying euro mirrors as soon as they're available, and doing my best not to take anyone out in the meantime.


I will be looking up on euro mirrors as well when they are available for M3


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## Johnston

Can you guys shed some more details on this "euro mirror"? I'm one of the Model 3 owners who is too stupid to properly adjust his mirrors to eliminate blind spot on the driver side. I'm the same idiot that has no issues adjust the mirrors properly in any other car I've owned.

It seems, beyond just the left side mirror not going out far enough, all 3 mirrors in the Model 3 in my opinion are too small. There's also the issue of the rear deck having a higher horizon than any other car I've driven/owned. These issues for me add up to the fact that, while the car is super safe in a crash, it does not do a good job of preventing crashes.

Since some ppl say they can adjust their mirrors to eliminate blind spots, I'm wondering if the "can't adjust out far enough" is an issue only some of the Model 3s are having.


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## Needsdecaf

PNWmisty said:


> I've never had the mirrors apart so I don't know how the mechanism works but I've had to do this in another car with motorized mirrors. The mirrors were designed to give when pushed on without stripping out the motor gears. I have my seat near the end of its travel and I can adjust the Model 3 mirrors to eliminate the blind spot as recommended by the video (and SAE).


Great for you.

The mirrors do not adjust out far enough for me. Period. May work for you, but they run out of travel for me. I'm 6'2" and the seat is NOT set all the way back.

DESIGN FLAW.


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## PNWmisty

Johnston said:


> Since some ppl say they can adjust their mirrors to eliminate blind spots, I'm wondering if the "can't adjust out far enough" is an issue only some of the Model 3s are having.


I suspect this is the case. Probably a problem with "tolerance stacking" because there are a number of physical parts, both within the mirror assembly as well as exterior to the mirror assembly, that contribute to where the mirrors are pointing.


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## Needsdecaf

PNWmisty said:


> I suspect this is the case. Probably a problem with "tolerance stacking" because there are a number of physical parts, both within the mirror assembly as well as exterior to the mirror assembly, that contribute to where the mirrors are pointing.


I doubt it. More likely that it fits for drivers of certain statures, not for others.


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## PNWmisty

Needsdecaf said:


> I doubt it. More likely that it fits for drivers of certain statures, not for others.


I'm 6'-04" so I'm one of the first person that would be affected if my mirrors didn't rotate far enough outward. Why do you doubt that manufacturing tolerances could be the problem? Tolerance stacking is a well-known issue that happens all the time.


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## garsh

PNWmisty said:


> I'm 6'-04" so I'm one of the first person that would be affected if my mirrors didn't rotate far enough outward.


As I've noted elsewhere, the mirror rotates outwards more for someone who sits taller in the seat.

For a shorter person who keeps their seat lower, and thus has the mirror tilted downward more than you, it will not rotate outward far enough. I've recreated this behavior on three different Model 3s now, so I don't think that manufacturing tolerance is the issue. The mirror as designed and built will rotate outward more when it is tilted upward more.

But this does present a work-around for us shorter folk - just raise your seat higher. After doing this, I was able to get the mirror to rotate outward a little more, to where it was perfect.


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## Reid

Johnston said:


> Can you guys shed some more details on this "euro mirror"? I'm one of the Model 3 owners who is too stupid to properly adjust his mirrors to eliminate blind spot on the driver side. I'm the same idiot that has no issues adjust the mirrors properly in any other car I've owned.
> 
> It seems, beyond just the left side mirror not going out far enough, all 3 mirrors in the Model 3 in my opinion are too small. There's also the issue of the rear deck having a higher horizon than any other car I've driven/owned. These issues for me add up to the fact that, while the car is super safe in a crash, it does not do a good job of preventing crashes.
> 
> Since some ppl say they can adjust their mirrors to eliminate blind spots, I'm wondering if the "can't adjust out far enough" is an issue only some of the Model 3s are having.


Check eBay for these part numbers, the euro mirrors are finally becoming available, myself and a couple others have been able to source them.
LH: 925-2455-001 
RH: 925-2456-001

They're great. Perfect. Heated and dimming. The way the car should have come. Ran me about $260 or $280 I think.

I'd recommend them to anyone, even if you think the mirrors adjust far enough out, having a wider angle view is a lot better than having a mirror filled with a single truck grille.


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## TomT

I had the same problem. No amount of mirror adjustment (or seat, within reason) would provide the correct view. I finally solved it by going to the Suma mirrors...



Unplugged said:


> I'm really getting tired of this refrain that somehow, after driving cars and trucks of ALL types for the last 48 friggin' years that I somehow have lost (or never had) the ability to adjust my left side mirror. This really is the height of smug superiority. The Model 3 left side mirror lacks the necessary adjustment for ME not to have a blind spot. Just because it works for YOU, doesn't mean that everyone else is incompetent.


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## M3OC Rules

It's interesting the Model Y mirrors are different. I was surprised that they would change them since they were trying to keep the number of new parts down but after reading this thread it sounds warranted.


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