# Will HW3 also help improve AP and EAP?



## Flashgj (Oct 11, 2018)

I purchased EAP when I ordered my M3 and took delivery in September. I had no intention of adding FSD until it was fully implemented and approved for use even if it meant paying more. I still believe FSD is still a few years away from getting all the government approvals it will need to be fully useful. 

But at only $2000, I am beginning to think it may be the time to purchase it. My question is, will HW3 improve the other AP and EAP functions once it is installed while we are waiting for a more “mature” version of FSD to be implemented and approved for everyday use? If it would, it helps to take the sting out of paying for something that most likely will not be seen, for who knows how long. 

Thoughts?


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## Taney71 (Dec 28, 2018)

HW3 is suppose to be a faster computer, right? If so, then I can’t help but think it will improve existing features. But my guess is that the HW3 is needed to make whatever they are doing possible which likely includes a revamping of what we already have with EAP.


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## Unplugged (Apr 5, 2016)

Flashgj said:


> ... I am beginning to think it may be the time to purchase it.


Which reminds me. When Elon states that the 'sale' on Autopilot and FSD ends on Monday, is that through Monday or through Sunday? I guess I wouldn't wait and risk missing the lower prices. Order today.

I pulled the trigger on both the Autopilot and FSD this week. I would have liked to wait, but Elon ended that discussion with the end of the sale tomorrow.

It seems to me that FSD is important so that we don't get frozen out with no new updates on certain items like hardware 2.0 has.


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## MrMannilow (Nov 21, 2018)

Just a note for you Amex holders, I'm seeing in my account I have an offer to do a 0% interest "plan it", basically a payment plan on large purchases made until mid May.

I really didn't plan on adding FSD to my EAP either. But after further thoughts and no interest in getting the Y now that I've seen it, I added FSD today. I feel the hw3 update is worth about $1000. I chose the 3 over a used S to have the latest and greatest AP features so an extra 2k on 70k total isn't s deal breaker.

Can't beat 0% for 24 months 👍 should have bought my car on my credit card 🤣


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## M3OC Rules (Nov 18, 2016)

Tesla has said that they will add two new features at the end of the year that will only be for those who purchase FSD. They include Automatic driving on city streets and Traffic light and stop sign recognition. They haven't given any details on exactly how these will work. Elon said he was confident they would get these done by the end of the year but currently they aren't good enough to not be monitored by a human. But if all goes well you should get something extra by the end of the year if you purchase FSD.

These features will require HW3 so when it rolls out presumably they will start upgrading people to HW3. They haven't given a lot of details on how that will roll out. We know HW3 has an upgraded neural net processor that was designed by Tesla and has 10x the performance of the HW2.5. What isn't clear is whether the performance of the EAP features will increase with HW3. There is also another more traditional processor which may or may not be upgraded. It safe to say the neural net processor is being used to determine what is around the car based on image recognition and radars. It's not as clear exactly how you get from what's around the car to what the car does and if that's using more traditional processing or neural network processing. I could see two scenarios where HW3 doesn't improve EAP features.

1. The HW3 uses the same neural net as HW2.5 with the same training etc.
2. HW3 uses a new neural net for EAP resulting in much better detection of objects around the car. But this alone may only offer minor performance changes since HW2.5 seeming does a pretty good job unless its bad weather, dirty sensors, etc if the code determining what the car does remains the same between HW2.5 and HW3.

There is also the fact that Elon said there was no benefit to waiting for HW3 because if you buy FSD you'll get HW3 which suggests there won't be an improvement to existing EAP features with HW3.

I am personally very excited to try out the new features as they come out so I ordered the FSD. But my expectations are pretty low that they will work well enough to really be a significant upgrade from current EAP when they first come out. And it should be noted this is not really FSD. To me, FSD is level 4 which has been Tesla's definition until recently. This is for sure not coming until 2021 at the earliest.

Who knows on the pricing. We know it goes up on Monday but that doesn't mean in a year it won't be the same price it is now or cheaper. I have been advocating waiting until its available and reviews are out before purchasing just like every other product. If you need to have it as soon as possible and understand the risks of preordering then its the cheapest its ever been.

Below is @Troy 's awesome chart explaining the options and pricing.



Troy said:


>


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## MrMannilow (Nov 21, 2018)

M3OC Rules said:


> But my expectations are pretty low that they will work well enough to really be a significant upgrade from current EAP when they first come out.


totally agree. I'm more interested in just locking down the hw3 part of it... Sucks being an IT Engineer new hardware is always so expensive to chase lol


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## eXntrc (Jan 14, 2019)

As I mentioned in another FSD post, the current neural network uses primarily gray-scale (red + gray to be precise) and also uses down-sampled images to reduce processing load. HW3 would be able to handle more color range (if available) and would also be able to handle increased resolution. As @M3OC Rules pointed out, HW3 would probably need a new neural network to take advantage of increased color and / or resolution. But, at least in theory, these would improve it's ability to perceive the world and provide better details to the "decision making" engine.

It's worth pointing out that even without color or resolution improvements, Elon has said HW3 will be able to process _two thousand_ frames per second compared to the current two hundred.

So, in short, I can't imagine HW3 _not_ making an improvement. And even if the initial improvement is small, as data is collected for the V3 NN I imagine we'll see improvements realized at a rapid pace.


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## Jason F (Jul 6, 2018)

M3OC Rules said:


> T
> These features will require HW3 so when it rolls out presumably they will start upgrading people to HW3. the earliest.


I don't agree those features will need HW3. It may, but not definitely. Certainly reading signs and stop lights shouldn't need it. If they do need it, then yes they will start upgrades.

I personally don't believe any current features in AP or EAP will get better with HW3. There will be one software base running on either platform. Just the new FSD features may eventually require it. Yes, it could theoretically work better, but if it already works good enough on HW2.5, no need to take it further and utilize all the capabilities of HW3.


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## M3OC Rules (Nov 18, 2016)

eXntrc said:


> As I mentioned in another FSD post, the current neural network uses primarily gray-scale (red + gray to be precise) and also uses down-sampled images to reduce processing load. HW3 would be able to handle more color range (if available) and would also be able to handle increased resolution. As @M3OC Rules pointed out, HW3 would probably need a new neural network to take advantage of increased color and / or resolution. But, at least in theory, these would improve it's ability to perceive the world and provide better details to the "decision making" engine.
> 
> It's worth pointing out that even without color or resolution improvements, Elon has said HW3 will be able to process _two thousand_ frames per second compared to the current two hundred.
> 
> So, in short, I can't imagine HW3 _not_ making an improvement. And even if the initial improvement is small, as data is collected for the V3 NN I imagine we'll see improvements realized at a rapid pace.


We should find out soon. Either HW3 is out or should be soon. Based on some of the firmware teardowns it seems like they could start using the same neural nets. God help them if HW3 doesn't improve over HW2.5 but that doesn't guarantee someone with HW3 is going to notice a difference from HW2.5 any time soon. Until they actually deliver it(software and hardware) people are buying hopes and dreams. There have been lots of examples of Elon being overly optimistic. He has admitted several times he might be wrong with their approach.

Here is a detailed argument for not buying the FSD upgrade from EAP. I just don't want people to have high expectations and be disappointed. Tesla is not guaranteeing much here. If they exceed expectations, that's awesome but if you didn't buy it before you can still buy it then. And if there is a huge difference on autopilot between HW2.5 and HW3 they may try to rectify that somehow by offering cheaper upgrades on just the hardware once the volumes are higher.

I've been trying to read some of the latest stuff on TMC but its a few data points and massive speculation. Some good stuff but it's hard to know what's actually going on at Tesla.


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## GDN (Oct 30, 2017)

While I have no doubt that faster hardware will allow them to do more and process more, I think the new 8.2 release is showing me that indeed they can still improve a lot with SW alone. I put 200 miles on the car this afternoon with 8.2 and about 125 miles on EAP. I did start off with two failed lane changes to the left - there was construction barrels just outside that lane that could have been part of the impact, but I kept it running. 

From there it made perfect transition from 190 to I35E Northbound for those of you familiar with DFW roads. About 50 of the miles were truly on roads it isn't approved for, but traffic was light and I stayed on top of it. Performed very well on some 2 two lanes road. The blue lines on the display never misinterpreted the oncoming lane. If city driving is good by the end of the year I would anticipate that 2 lane highways are approved as well, but that is just my guessing. 

To say the least the SW has improved, still can improve, but faster hardware can also only improve and allow the SW to do more and more.


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## garsh (Apr 4, 2016)

Flashgj said:


> My question is, will HW3 improve the other AP and EAP functions once it is installed


No. If all you want is the currently-available EAP functionality, then I don't expect any improvement with the new hardware. Tesla needs to keep that functionality working on the old hardware.

But Tesla will undoubtedly keep releasing new, unannounced features before they completely reach FSD, and I'm sure many of those stepping-stone features are going to require the new hardware (and purchase of FSD). So if you want to keep getting those kind of functionality updates, get FSD.


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## SR22pilot (Aug 16, 2018)

During one of the big shareholders meetings they had one of the AP guys on stage and he said they have large neural nets that work a lot better but they don't fit in the present hardware but will run on the new chip. I'm going from memory so feel free to correct me if I have something wrong. The bottom line is that the new chip represents at least a 10X improvement in capability.


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## M3OC Rules (Nov 18, 2016)

garsh said:


> If all you want is the currently-available EAP functionality, then I don't expect any improvement with the new hardware.


I agree with that sentiment and my worry is that a bunch of people just purchased FSD expecting large improvements in current EAP. Some have stated improved EAP as their reason for buying it. Did I miss something because as far as I know, Tesla has never said HW3 will improve current EAP over HW2.5? Just because the hardware is more capable does not mean they will go back and redo all the software.


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## MrMannilow (Nov 21, 2018)

M3OC Rules said:


> I agree with that sentiment and my worry is that a bunch of people just purchased FSD expecting large improvements in current EAP.


AP definitely works better than it did when I got my car with EAP in December. Especially in sharper turns on single lane roads more in the city environment. My major concern is that with EAP "retired" or no longer available, Tesla will eventually stop development for that specific package unless you go up the FSD package.


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## jonboy71 (Aug 2, 2018)

MrMannilow said:


> Just a note for you Amex holders, I'm seeing in my account I have an offer to do a 0% interest "plan it", basically a payment plan on large purchases made until mid May.
> 
> I really didn't plan on adding FSD to my EAP either. But after further thoughts and no interest in getting the Y now that I've seen it, I added FSD today. I feel the hw3 update is worth about $1000. I chose the 3 over a used S to have the latest and greatest AP features so an extra 2k on 70k total isn't s deal breaker.
> 
> Can't beat 0% for 24 months 👍 should have bought my car on my credit card 🤣


Where on the page and what type of AMEX do you have?


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