# Any ideas for a short snappy anti-musk bumper sticker? ( love the car, not the man)



## sonoswen (Sep 13, 2021)

Came up with Muck Fusk.. others?


----------



## FRC (Aug 4, 2018)

You already said it in your thread title...LTC, NTM

And I couldn't agree with you more!!


----------



## Klaus-rf (Mar 6, 2019)

Elon - the Fragrance


----------



## JasonF (Oct 26, 2018)

Be careful, Elon has become somewhat political recently, and if you meet a Tesla hater with one particular political alignment you might be coming back to a vandalized car.


----------



## sonoswen (Sep 13, 2021)

JasonF said:


> Be careful, Elon has become somewhat political recently, and if you meet a Tesla hater with one particular political alignment you might become back to a vandalized car.


Anything is possible. My take is that Musk should stay out of the public eye and concentrate on making things, which he does quite well. I think his hubris has taken over. Personally, I love my Tesla, but now, for Musk, not so much. That is a bumper sticker right there..."love the car, not the man"


----------



## iChris93 (Feb 3, 2017)

JasonF said:


> Be careful, Elon has become somewhat political recently, and if you meet a Tesla hater with one particular political alignment you might be coming back to a vandalized car.


I'm not sure that's fair to say. Tesla has always had haters. I've gotten the middle finger from people at an intersection in Michigan before. Assumed they were from one of the big 3.


----------



## garsh (Apr 4, 2016)

JasonF said:


> Be careful, Elon has become somewhat political recently, and if you meet a Tesla hater with one particular political alignment you might be coming back to a vandalized car.


I avoid putting any kind of bumper sticker on my car - political or sports-team related. I generally don't like adorning my vehicles with extra stuff, but I also fear a hater of what my sticker says vandalizing my car.


----------



## SalisburySam (Jun 6, 2018)

iChris93 said:


> I'm not sure that's fair to say. Tesla has always had haters. I've gotten the middle finger from people at an intersection in Michigan before. Assumed they were from one of the no-longer-quite-so-big 3.


I corrected that for you.


----------



## shareef777 (Mar 10, 2019)

garsh said:


> I avoid putting any kind of bumper sticker on my car - political or sports-team related. I generally don't like adorning my vehicles with extra stuff, but I also fear a hater of what my sticker says vandalizing my car.


I have the same fear regarding ANYTHING showing inside the car. I won't even put a Walgreens bag with a pack of diapers in the front or back seats in fear of someone breaking in just to steal it. It's also why I love my frunk!


----------



## iChris93 (Feb 3, 2017)

shareef777 said:


> It's also why I love my frunk!


Wish the frunk was auto or soft close.


----------



## shareef777 (Mar 10, 2019)

iChris93 said:


> Wish the frunk was auto or soft close.


I got the powered kit for both our Teslas. Game changer. Now I just need a way to use Siri on my phone to open the frunk with "hey Siri, open the pod bay doors".


----------



## PNWmisty (Aug 19, 2017)

sonoswen said:


> Came up with Muck Fusk.. others?


Actions speak louder than words. I judge a man by what he does, not by what he says and, by that measure, Musk outclasses just about every public figure that exists today.

Without Elon Musk the world would be more boring and a less happy place. We need more men like him.


----------



## shareef777 (Mar 10, 2019)

PNWmisty said:


> Actions speak louder than words. I judge a man by what he does, not by what he says and, by that measure, Musk outclasses just about every public figure that exists today.
> 
> Without Elon Musk the world would be more boring and a less happy place. We need more men like him.


He runs a business, which is moving more towards upper class territory, it’s not like he cured cancer or solved world hunger. He’s “doing” pretty much what any other CEO is doing, maximizing profits for his business.


----------



## sonoswen (Sep 13, 2021)

PNWmisty said:


> Actions speak louder than words. I judge a man by what he does, not by what he says and, by that measure, Musk outclasses just about every public figure that exists today.
> 
> Without Elon Musk the world would be more boring and a less happy place. We need more men like him.


He is an embarrassment. He should stay away from all Media and stay in a room or facility working on projects, not spewing nonsense.


----------



## garsh (Apr 4, 2016)

shareef777 said:


> He’s “doing” pretty much what any other CEO is doing, maximizing profits for his business.


He lowered the cost of space flight and pushed the world towards switching to electric vehicles much sooner than it would have without Tesla.

He risked every last dollar of his own fortune to do so.

So no, he's not simply doing what any other CEO does.

Hate him if you want, but don't ignore what the man has actually accomplished.


----------



## shareef777 (Mar 10, 2019)

garsh said:


> He lowered the cost of space flight and pushed the world towards switching to electric vehicles much sooner than it would have without Tesla.
> 
> He risked every last dollar of his own fortune to do so.
> 
> ...


I‘d love to say that Tesla’s goal is pushing the world to electrics, but it’s more like the goal is to sell a luxury vehicle that happens to be electric.

And I don’t hate people. I may disagree on some points, but disagreement isn’t a reason to hate anyone.


----------



## sonoswen (Sep 13, 2021)

I just returned from Europe where I could see the American decline more vividly than ever. We have reverted back to an old fashioned plantation system, ruled by wealthy, well connected people who are maniacal in their worship of wealth.
Musk is a hypocrite. What happened to his donation of Billions to stop world hunger?


----------



## Klaus-rf (Mar 6, 2019)

sonoswen said:


> What happened to his donation of Billions to stop world hunger?


 Looks to have been diverted to buy Twatter.


----------



## shareef777 (Mar 10, 2019)

Klaus-rf said:


> Looks to have been diverted to buy Twatter.


Cause having the freedom to post memes is more important then feeding the hungry!

But in all seriousness, his statement was against the idea that $6bil would solve world hunger. I'm in agreement with him in that there's too much greed across the entire process. The idea that $6bil would solve global hunger is a purely theoretical numbers statement, not based on an actual solution that can be implemented.


----------



## Klaus-rf (Mar 6, 2019)

Feeding the rich is much more important than feeding the homeless or hungry or veterans, etc..


----------



## Klaus-rf (Mar 6, 2019)

shareef777 said:


> Cause having the freedom to post memes is more important then feeding the hungry!


 OAnyoe can easily post memes on twitter without being the "owner".


----------



## PNWmisty (Aug 19, 2017)

shareef777 said:


> I‘d love to say that Tesla’s goal is pushing the world to electrics, but it’s more like the goal is to sell a luxury vehicle that happens to be electric.
> 
> And I don’t hate people. I may disagree on some points, but disagreement isn’t a reason to hate anyone.


Anyone who says Musk and Tesla have not pushed the auto industry to make the transition to EVs doesn't understand the auto industry. At all. No informed person would dispute that. Legacy auto is being dragged into EV's kicking and screaming and their very low EV production volumes proves that beyond any reasonable doubt. Legacy auto talks big when it come to numbers of future new model EV releases and low prices but try to go buy one of these low priced EV's from Ford or GM and see what happens (even if you are willing to wait six months to take delivery). Tesla is making more EV's available to North America than all other legacy auto companies combined. These are the same companies that people said knew how to make cars in high volume and could "just flip a switch" and millions of low cost, high quality EV's would come pouring out of their factory gates, leaving Tesla in bankruptcy. The high volume "Tela Killers" were coming in 2019, 2020, 2021, 2022, 2023 and Tesla sales would plummet. The fact is, not a single manufacturer has brought a single EV model or combination of models to the American car buyer in high volume, low price or not. Not one. Ford is losing money hand over fist on their Mach-e "Mustang" and the F-150 Lightning will lose money as well. That's why they are not willing to put them into high production.

To single Tesla out for bringing high quality EV's to market at prices affordable to your average new car buyer and saying they just "happen to be electric" is a blatant misrepresentation of the actual facts. Tesla pioneered the modern EV at a time when no other legacy manufacturer was willing to bring EV's to market in high volumes and affordable prices (or not).

The average new car in America sells for over $45K and ICE cars come with a thirsty fuel tank and the need for endless regular maintenance. Tesla sells all their car at or below true market value as evidenced by used Tesla selling for more than their purchase price and the long waiting lists to buy a new Tesla, even as production is constantly increasing at a rate of over 50% every year!

Before Tesla, legacy auto said things like "EV's are not acceptable to the American consumer, they are too small, cramped, under-powered and too slow with too short of a range to be practical. Americans do not want to drive golf carts." Is it any wonder Tesla had to manufacture really nice cars to prove them wrong? It's not an accident that Tesla's have really nice seats, wheels, suspensions, chassis, tires, brakes, motors, power electronics, headlights, etc. They are not econo-boxes built to the lowest price point but nice cars built for people who want nice cars.

Without Tesla the transition to EV's would have been set back by over a decade. The air in our cities and our highways would have been more cancerous, more toxic and smelled worse. More people would contract asthma, COPD, cancer and other debilitating illnesses that reduce the quality of life. Elon Musk has set off a chain of events that will ultimately improve lives of millions of people through less disease, less flooding and slower global warming while leaving us with cleaner, healthier air to breathe and enjoy life to the fullest. While one man can not do it all, you would be hard pressed to name one man who has created so much positive change in the world we live in.

I think people who think Elon has suddenly become political or even toxic are being irrational. They are unaware that most, yes, most of the Tesla negativity on place like Reddit and Twitter is generated by AI bots paid for by people trying to tarnish Tesla, SpaceX and Elon Musk because he threatens to massively disrupt multiple industries to the tune of hundred of billions, if not trillions, of dollars. He threatens the income and net worth of most billionaires that exist today. He is not like the rest of them and he is not part of their billionaire club. These AI robots are designed to move public opinion in a manner that will slow down the change and slow down the damage Elon Musk is currently doing to their financial interests. And AI web bots will crawl around the net and do their dirty work far cheaper than real humans. This is not a wacky conspiracy theory, it's actually happening for a number of years. It's a growing phenomenon that largely goes unrecognized by mainstream media because their billionaire owners don't want to draw publicity to their newest secret weapon to maintain a semblance of control over the people and the ideas they adopt. They _want_ you to hate Elon Musk and everything they say he stands for. But that is not reality.

[MODERATOR EDIT - please refrain from disparaging members of any group]


----------



## shareef777 (Mar 10, 2019)

PNWmisty said:


> Anyone who says Musk and Tesla have not pushed the auto industry to make the transition to EVs doesn't understand the auto industry. At all. No informed person would dispute that. Legacy auto is being dragged into EV's kicking and screaming and their very low EV production volumes proves that beyond any reasonable doubt. Legacy auto talks big when it come to numbers of future new model EV releases and low prices but try to go buy one of these low priced EV's from Ford or GM and see what happens (even if you are willing to wait six months to take delivery). Tesla is making more EV's available to North America than all other legacy auto companies combined. These are the same companies that people said knew how to make cars in high volume and could "just flip a switch" and millions of low cost, high quality EV's would come pouring out of their factory gates, leaving Tesla in bankruptcy. The high volume "Tela Killers" were coming in 2019, 2020, 2021, 2022, 2023 and Tesla sales would plummet. The fact is, not a single manufacturer has brought a single EV model or combination of models to the American car buyer in high volume, low price or not. Not one. Ford is losing money hand over fist on their Mach-e "Mustang" and the F-150 Lightning will lose money as well. That's why they are not willing to put them into high production.
> 
> To single Tesla out for bringing high quality EV's to market at prices affordable to your average new car buyer and saying they just "happen to be electric" is a blatant misrepresentation of the actual facts. Tesla pioneered the modern EV at a time when no other legacy manufacturer was willing to bring EV's to market in high volumes and affordable prices (or not).
> 
> ...


It's not healthy to have a mindset of "us vs them", especially when it comes to corporate alliances. Unless you're a majority stockholder, you don't mean much (and by much I mean ANYTHING) to them. It's ironic when people have the idea of "if you criticize _*insert person here*_, it's because you're being brain washed". Everyone should be open to criticism as there's no perfect person on the planet. We're ALL fallible.


----------



## Kimmo57 (Apr 10, 2019)

PNWmisty said:


> They _want_ you to hate Elon Musk and everything they say he stands for.


Maybe so, but Elon's tweeting isn't helping...


----------



## PNWmisty (Aug 19, 2017)

> [MODERATOR EDIT - please refrain from disparaging members of any group]


Which group of people did I disparage? I would honestly like to know.


----------



## PNWmisty (Aug 19, 2017)

Kimmo57 said:


> Maybe so, but Elon's tweeting isn't helping...


If Elon's tweets were a problem, the man would not have been able to break into one of the tightest and hardest clubs in the world for a new entrant to break into. The auto industry. Every new entrant in the last 100 years has failed miserably (except for Elon Musk). And there have been over 100 of them. And the military-industrial complex, also known as the space industry. Do you have any idea how difficult it is to break into that paarticular good-ol' boy network? 

His tweets are just one more tool in his toolbox on the path to the kind of success most people can't even imagine creating themselves. But that doesn't stop some people from acting like they know more than he does about what he should or shouldn't tweet. It's comical to see those who have not accomplished anything of note criticize the methods of those who have created huge positive change in multiple industries. As if they know better than the man who has a proven ability to make the unimaginable actually happen!


----------



## PNWmisty (Aug 19, 2017)

shareef777 said:


> It's not healthy to have a mindset of "us vs them", especially when it comes to corporate alliances. Unless you're a majority stockholder, you don't mean much (and by much I mean ANYTHING) to them. It's ironic when people have the idea of "if you criticize _*insert person here*_, it's because you're being brain washed". Everyone should be open to criticism as there's no perfect person on the planet. We're ALL fallible.


It' OK to criticize when there is an actual fault to criticize but I was taking issue with criticizing Tesla for the high cost of EV's. Tesla is doing more than anyone to create a real competitive landscape in the EV market but the rest of the manufacturers are apparently not up to the challenge. Where are the high-volumes of affordable EV's they promised us? The price cannot come down until there is more supply than demand.

My point is, put the criticism where it is most warranted, not on the company doing the most with the least resources available to them. Tela makes three quarters of the EV's sold in America and they are but one small company (compared to the huge legacy auto).


----------



## shareef777 (Mar 10, 2019)

PNWmisty said:


> It' OK to criticize when there is an actual fault to criticize but I was taking issue with criticizing Tesla for the high cost of EV's. Tesla is doing more than anyone to create a real competitive landscape in the EV market but the rest of the manufacturers are apparently not up to the challenge. Where are the high-volumes of affordable EV's they promised us? The price cannot come down until there is more supply than demand.
> 
> My point is, put the criticism where it is most warranted, not on the company doing the most with the least resources available to them. Tela makes three quarters of the EV's sold in America and they are but one small company (compared to the huge legacy auto).


Two wrongs don't make a right. It's been well established that Tesla's pricing is increasing significantly higher than inflation. On top of that, it's indisputable that they are the EV leader, which means as they increase prices, others will follow.

They're also blatantly pushing out higher margin cars while people that ordered lower margin ones get pushed further back in the queue. For a company that's "doing more to create a real competitive landscape in the EV market" they sure look like they're just cashing in on people with more expendable income, while everyone else can go to the back of the line. And keep moving there as people with $$$ show up.


----------



## PNWmisty (Aug 19, 2017)

shareef777 said:


> Two wrongs don't make a right. It's been well established that Tesla's pricing is increasing significantly higher than inflation. On top of that, it's indisputable that they are the EV leader, which means as they increase prices, others will follow.


That' not how competition works. In fact, Tesla has been raising prices for several quarters in a row and guess what GM did? That's right, they announced a big price reduction on their only real EV, the GM Bolt! How does that figure into your theoretical pricing model? Can you explain it?

GM to cut prices on EV Chevrolet Bolt up to 18 percent | Reuters

Because I can. GM knows they are not going to sell enough Bolts to matter. And they don't want the embarrassment of having them sitting on the lots unsold. But the real problem is lowering the price is not going to mean they sell more Bolts (because they are barely going to make any). They are using the low price to get people in the door where they can say all the EV's are sold out but they can offer them a "great deal" on a brand new ICE car. They use the EV to sell ICE. 

So, explain to me how Tesla charging market prices or below for their EV's slows down adoption of EV's? High prices would only slow EV adoption if it caused them to reduce planned production. But high prices have the opposite effect, they make the company want to manufacture as many as possible. Capitalism is good at that. Making the price lower will not get one more person in an EV.


----------



## shareef777 (Mar 10, 2019)

PNWmisty said:


> That' not how competition works. In fact, Tesla has been raising prices for several quarters in a row and guess what GM did? That's right, they announced a big price reduction on their only real EV, the GM Bolt! How does that figure into your theoretical pricing model? Can you explain it?
> 
> GM to cut prices on EV Chevrolet Bolt up to 18 percent | Reuters
> 
> ...


You seem to be glossing over my repeated comments of TESLA being a leader in the EV industry. You're so hell bent on putting Tesla on a pedestal that you're completely overlooking the concerns I posted regarding the direction of Tesla. It's that Tesla is no longer looking to compete against Bolts, Leafs, or pretty much ANY EV under $60k. They WERE the underdog that helped make EVs mainstream. Now they're the luxury brand that's looking to complete with BMW/Mercedes/Lexus, etc. 

Personally, my desire is to see people I know (those making under $100k/year) be able to eventually own a Tesla. Obviously, Tesla is ok with "those people" going with a Bolt instead.

I get it, and I'm under no false pretense that this is unique to Tesla, but profits and shareholders come first. That didn't seem to be the case when I first bought in and Elon's personality sold me on the belief that he'd be running Tesla with a different mindset then a stereotypical CEO. Guess I was wrong 🤷‍♂️


----------



## PNWmisty (Aug 19, 2017)

shareef777 said:


> You seem to be glossing over my repeated comments of TESLA being a leader in the EV industry. You're so hell bent on putting Tesla on a pedestal that you're completely overlooking the concerns I posted regarding the direction of Tesla. It's that Tesla is no longer looking to compete against Bolts, Leafs, or pretty much ANY EV under $60k. They WERE the underdog that helped make EVs mainstream. Now they're the luxury brand that's looking to complete with BMW/Mercedes/Lexus, etc.
> 
> Personally, my desire is to see people I know (those making under $100k/year) be able to eventually own a Tesla. Obviously, Tesla is ok with "those people" going with a Bolt instead.
> 
> I get it, and I'm under no false pretense that this is unique to Tesla, but profits and shareholders come first. That didn't seem to be the case when I first bought in and Elon's personality sold me on the belief that he'd be running Tesla with a different mindset then a stereotypical CEO. Guess I was wrong 🤷‍♂️


I'm not glossing over anything, Tesla simply doesn't have enough production to compete in the $26K price range against Bolts yet. It's as simple as that. I'm not trying to put Tesla on a pedestal, they have done that themselves by taking 75% EV market share in the US. An yet, you still want them to do more, or to sell their cars for far under actual market value. I'm not sure which it is. I think you want them to sell their cars under market value. But this isn't a charity for motorists. Everyone would like to buy things under market value but that's not going to make more of them, it's just going to increase wait lists well beyond a year. Everyone wants a screaming deal!

I want them to do more too in terms of increasing the numbers of EV's on the road and a strong balance sheet will accelerate investments that can help make that happen. You can rest assured that no dividend payments will be going to shareholders for many, many years. They are reinvesting all profits back into their primary mission which has been confirmed by them every year. That mission is to accelerate the transition to sustainable energy and transportation. 

I don't have a problem with fair criticism, but your criticism doesn't make any sense.


----------



## shareef777 (Mar 10, 2019)

PNWmisty said:


> I'm not glossing over anything, Tesla simply doesn't have enough production to compete in the $26K price range against Bolts yet. It's as simple as that. I'm not trying to put Tesla on a pedestal, they have done that themselves by taking 75% EV market share in the US. An yet, you still want them to do more, or to sell their cars for far under actual market value. I'm not sure which it is. I think you want them to sell their cars under market value. But this isn't a charity for motorists. Everyone would like to buy things under market value but that's not going to make more of them, it's just going to increase wait lists well beyond a year. Everyone wants a screaming deal!
> 
> I want them to do more too in terms of increasing the numbers of EV's on the road and a strong balance sheet will accelerate investments that can help make that happen. You can rest assured that no dividend payments will be going to shareholders for many, many years. They are reinvesting all profits back into their primary mission which has been confirmed by them every year. That mission is to accelerate the transition to sustainable energy and transportation.
> 
> I don't have a problem with fair criticism, but your criticism doesn't make any sense.


It's no different then when I (and most others) criticize dealer added markups on all the Mustang Mach-E and F-150 lightnings, but I guess you'd say "it's as simple as market value". While we're at it, $6... $7... $8/gal of gas is just "market value".


----------



## PNWmisty (Aug 19, 2017)

shareef777 said:


> It's no different then when I (and most others) criticize dealer added markups on all the Mustang Mach-E and F-150 lightnings, but I guess you'd say "it's as simple as market value". While we're at it, $6... $7... $8/gal of gas is just "market value".


Finally, you wrote something that actually makes sense! The market has a way of taking care of pricing. I just wish legacy auto would make more EV's so they weren't so scarce. It seems the only one that's really trying to ramp EV's to high volume is VW even though they have missed just about every EV release date and production milestone they have ever set. Tesla is ramping volumes at shockingly impressive speed through this chip shortage but it would hep if other legacy auto makers took volume production of EV's seriously. Tesla can eventually do it all themselves, if necessary, but it will happen a lot more quickly if they have some meaningful help from other large multi-national automakers. 

But, to tell you the truth, I have just about given up hope on the rest. Hopefully, they pull it together and surprise me but It's not looking good for the other teams.


----------



## garsh (Apr 4, 2016)

PNWmisty said:


> Finally, you wrote something that actually makes sense!


Please refrain from slighting other members like this.


----------



## shareef777 (Mar 10, 2019)

PNWmisty said:


> Finally, you wrote something that actually makes sense! The market has a way of taking care of pricing. I just wish legacy auto would make more EV's so they weren't so scarce. It seems the only one that's really trying to ramp EV's to high volume is VW even though they have missed just about every EV release date and production milestone they have ever set. Tesla is ramping volumes at shockingly impressive speed through this chip shortage but it would hep if other legacy auto makers took volume production of EV's seriously. Tesla can eventually do it all themselves, if necessary, but it will happen a lot more quickly if they have some meaningful help from other large multi-national automakers.
> 
> But, to tell you the truth, I have just about given up hope on the rest. Hopefully, they pull it together and surprise me but It's not looking good for the other teams.


So what is it? Dealer/gas markups are gouging, but Tesla is just “market value”?


----------



## PNWmisty (Aug 19, 2017)

shareef777 said:


> So what is it? Dealer/gas markups are gouging, but Tesla is just “market value”?


No, that does not logically follow from what I wrote. 

Market value takes into account supply and demand. There is a war going on in Ukraine that has shocked the oil markets. It's only price gouging if there were collusion to keep prices high. As to dealer markups, some of them are insane but it's a private dealerships right to ask whatever they want. The real problem is the low supply and that's the fault of the manufacturer.

Tesla is growing EV production by stunning amounts in an admirable effort to help reduce the shortage of EV's, Ford, GM and the rest are not. You tell me where the blame lies. Certainly not on the company doing the most to increase availability of EV's!


----------



## shareef777 (Mar 10, 2019)

PNWmisty said:


> No, that does not logically follow from what I wrote.
> 
> Market value takes into account supply and demand. There is a war going on in Ukraine that has shocked the oil markets. It's only price gouging if there were collusion to keep prices high. As to dealer markups, some of them are insane but it's a private dealerships right to ask whatever they want. The real problem is the low supply and that's the fault of the manufacturer.
> 
> Tesla is growing EV production by stunning amounts in an admirable effort to help reduce the shortage of EV's, Ford, GM and the rest are not. You tell me where the blame lies. Certainly not on the company doing the most to increase availability of EV's!


By your logic, Ford/GM and the rest are doing exactly what the market dictates as the demand for ICE is SIGNIFICANTLY higher then the demand for EVs, and yet you want to blame them for following the market!? Yet the $35k Tesla is now $47k, and you continue to put Tesla on a pedestal because "hey, market value". I'm sorry, but what's logical about that!?

Also, just as manufacturers are pushing EVs to the back of the line to produce higher profit ICE vehicles, so too is Tesla pushing back even a $47k SR 3 for the higher profit perf models.


----------



## PNWmisty (Aug 19, 2017)

shareef777 said:


> By your logic, Ford/GM and the rest are doing exactly what the market dictates as the demand for ICE is SIGNIFICANTLY higher then the demand for EVs, and yet you want to blame them for following the market!? Yet the $35k Tesla is now $47k, and you continue to put Tesla on a pedestal because "hey, market value". I'm sorry, but what's logical about that!?
> 
> Also, just as manufacturers are pushing EVs to the back of the line to produce higher profit ICE vehicles, so too is Tesla pushing back even a $47k SR 3 for the higher profit perf models.


In my analysis it's incorrect that there is more unfulfilled demand for ICE than there is for EV. The evidence of that is that people who can't buy an EV without waiting for many months are breaking down and buying ICE cars instead. But we don't see people who can't buy ICE vehicle breaking down and buying an EV to hold them over. I'm not sure what this says to you but I would say the long waiting lists for EV's demonstrates more unmet demand in the EV market than the ICE market.

Also, dealerships and legacy auto are offering no money down and low or even zero percent financing to take delivery of unsold cars sitting on dealership lots, all of them are ICE vehicles. That pretty much proves legacy auto is making too many ICE cars and not enough EVs. See here:

The 11 Best 0 APR Car Deals in June 2022 | U.S. News (usnews.com)

As to your final claim, I don't dispute that all manufacturers, Tesla included, are giving preference to more expensive models, our difference was whether legacy auto was giving preference to ICE over EV which is causing EV prices to rise.

Remember, it is legacy auto themselves that keep bragging about how many EV's they are going to be bringing to market, but it's always in another year or two. No wonder there is so much price pressure on EV's. This is not Tesla's fault since they are doing everything in their power to increase their rate of EV production each and every year and succeeding in spectacular fashion. It's just too bad they don't have more help from legacy auto. That's what would bring true competition to the EV market and lower prices of all EV's.


----------



## shareef777 (Mar 10, 2019)

PNWmisty said:


> In my analysis it's incorrect that there is more unfulfilled demand for ICE than there is for EV. The evidence of that is that people who can't buy an EV without waiting for many months are breaking down and buying ICE cars instead. But we don't see people who can't buy ICE vehicle breaking down and buying an EV to hold them over. I'm not sure what this says to you but I would say the long waiting lists for EV's demonstrates more unmet demand in the EV market than the ICE market.
> 
> Also, dealerships and legacy auto are offering no money down and low or even zero percent financing to take delivery of unsold cars sitting on dealership lots, all of them are ICE vehicles. That pretty much proves legacy auto is making too many ICE cars and not enough EVs. See here:
> 
> ...


Our difference is that I view Tesla and other manufacturer's in a similar light when it comes to how they run their business. They run it for profit, not some altruistic agenda. You fault other manufacturers for their lack of EV vehicles when it's shown that ICE is more profitable for them, but in the same sentence praise Tesla when they bump their prices higher than the inflation rate as "market value".

Simple put: I see it as ALL manufacturers are following the market to make a profit above all else the best way they could.

And lets not talk about "bragging" _cough*FSD*cough_.


----------



## JasonF (Oct 26, 2018)

PNWmisty said:


> An yet, you still want them to do more, or to sell their cars for far under actual market value. I'm not sure which it is. I think you want them to sell their cars under market value. But this isn't a charity for motorists. Everyone would like to buy things under market value but that's not going to make more of them, it's just going to increase wait lists well beyond a year. Everyone wants a screaming deal!


When I bought my Model 3 in 2018, I bought into a promise and a dream. Spending almost $50k on a car was a stretch for me, and I wouldn't have even tried if I thought it was a temporarily discounted $65k car. Because I try to think ahead until the _next_ time I replace the car - I didn't want to buy it like it would be a one-time thing, and next time I would get a more reasonably priced car from someone else. The promise and dream part of it was that by the time my car gets old, there would new, lower priced Teslas, and that once they'd proven themselves viable, other manufacturers would be forced to produce reasonably priced EV's as well.

So here we are 4 years later. The cheaper Teslas don't exist and never will (they were cancelled), the best I could hope to "upgrade" to someday is a lower range model that costs the _same as mine did in 2018_, and will probably be going up very soon. And as other manufacturers watch Tesla retreat back into ultra-luxury space, they get the message that's the only way EV's will ever be viable, and cheaper EV's will be rare to nonexistent for the foreseeable future. They realize Tesla's dream and promise are dead, they believe the EV fad is fading away, and the only risk they will be willing to take with EV's is in their own luxury space.

That's really what some of us are complaining about. Not that Tesla isn't giving away the Model S for $25k, but that they broke their promise, and left no EV future for those of us who believed in it but don't have a lot of money to throw around.




PNWmisty said:


> I want them to do more too in terms of increasing the numbers of EV's on the road and a strong balance sheet will accelerate investments that can help make that happen. You can rest assured that no dividend payments will be going to shareholders for many, many years. They are reinvesting all profits back into their primary mission which has been confirmed by them every year. That mission is to accelerate the transition to sustainable energy and transportation.


I'm concerned that won't happen. Tesla _used_ to be a company that invested its profits back into the company and R&D for new models, but they're not doing that now. They don't even have any solid plans for more production capacity. Whoever is running things there now is favoring doing what a lot of other manufacturers (of just about anything) do - increase profit margin, pay to stockholders, rinse and repeat. Only make changes when the company is on the verge of failing because of lack of change.


----------



## shareef777 (Mar 10, 2019)

JasonF said:


> When I bought my Model 3 in 2018, I bought into a promise and a dream. Spending almost $50k on a car was a stretch for me, and I wouldn't have even tried if I thought it was a temporarily discounted $65k car. Because I try to think ahead until the _next_ time I replace the car - I didn't want to buy it like it would be a one-time thing, and next time I would get a more reasonably priced car from someone else. The promise and dream part of it was that by the time my car gets old, there would new, lower priced Teslas, and that once they'd proven themselves viable, other manufacturers would be forced to produce reasonably priced EV's as well.
> 
> So here we are 4 years later. The cheaper Teslas don't exist and never will (they were cancelled), the best I could hope to "upgrade" to someday is a lower range model that costs the _same as mine did in 2018_, and will probably be going up very soon. And as other manufacturers watch Tesla retreat back into ultra-luxury space, they get the message that's the only way EV's will ever be viable, and cheaper EV's will be rare to nonexistent for the foreseeable future. They realize Tesla's dream and promise are dead, they believe the EV fad is fading away, and the only risk they will be willing to take with EV's is in their own luxury space.
> 
> ...


100% spot on. I want Tesla to be the EV FOR ALL! It pains me that I know many friends and family will never be able to own one. Shoot, even my own children will likely not own one. I don't have the same feelings or passions for Lucid, Taycan, or other high priced EVs because they started high and remained high. They're no different than Ferrari and Lambourghini, expensive toys for those with expendable income. Tesla wasn't SUPPOSED to be that, but that's the direction they're heading and it sucks. Not sure why anyone would be on-board for that. Sure, it may be a greater success for the business, but why care about the success of a business that's catering themselves exclusively to the higher echelon of the population?


----------



## garsh (Apr 4, 2016)

shareef777 said:


> 100% spot on. I want Tesla to be the EV FOR ALL! It pains me that I know many friends and family will never be able to own one.


They'll get there again, but it's going to take a few years before the economy recovers from events of the last couple of years. The recent onslaught of parts shortages and inflation has thrown a wrench in Teslas plans.

When Tesla revealed the Model 3 in 2016, they said it would start at $35,000, which was the average price paid for a new car at the time. Today the least expensive Model 3 is $48,490, which is a huge increase. But the majority of that increase is due to inflation. The average price for a new car in January 2022 was $47,100:









New Car Price Keeps Climbing, with Average Now at Almost $47,100


Reduced supply, increased demand: It all adds up to higher prices for the new-car-buying public.




www.caranddriver.com





That was back in January. The auto sector hasn't gotten any better since then.









New-Vehicle Affordability Declines Again in May, Typical Monthly Payment Hits New Record of $712 - Cox Automotive Inc.


New-vehicle affordability worsened again in May, with increases in interest rates and vehicle prices outpacing income growth. The number of median weeks of income needed to purchase the average new vehicle increased for the fourth consecutive month reaching 41.3 weeks in May from an upwardly...




www.coxautoinc.com


----------



## JasonF (Oct 26, 2018)

garsh said:


> They'll get there again, but it's going to take a few years before the economy recovers from events of the last couple of years. The recent onslaught of parts shortages and inflation has thrown a wrench in Teslas plans.


Maybe, but I'm not so certain anymore since they cancelled the concept of a $25k EV. Not even increased that to "Ok we can't do $25, but we can do $30k" - just cancelled it, like less than $48k will never be viable.




garsh said:


> When Tesla revealed the Model 3 in 2016, they said it would start at $35,000, which was the average price paid for a new car at the time. Today the least expensive Model 3 is $48,490, which is a huge increase. But the majority of that increase is due to inflation. The average price for a new car in January 2022 was $47,100:


That number is kind of misleading. I've been watching several models from several companies, and the "average new car price" has been increased by automotive manufacturers discontinuing a lot of low-end models because they are cars, and not crossover or SUV's. Crossovers and SUV's have higher prices, and larger profit margins. So they created an "average price increase" without actually raising prices.

Also, we live in some kind of crazy era where anyone who makes cars has decided that people below a certain income aren't going to buy new cars anyway, but used ones, so they aim their products at higher-income customers. The truth is, though, they do that because higher-income people are less price discriminating, and won't go in with a budget or haggle. So they can set the margins at 60% or 100% and the customer will pay it.


----------



## PNWmisty (Aug 19, 2017)

shareef777 said:


> Our difference is that I view Tesla and other manufacturer's in a similar light when it comes to how they run their business. They run it for profit, not some altruistic agenda. You fault other manufacturers for their lack of EV vehicles when it's shown that ICE is more profitable for them, but in the same sentence praise Tesla when they bump their prices higher than the inflation rate as "market value".
> 
> Simple put: I see it as ALL manufacturers are following the market to make a profit above all else the best way they could.
> 
> And lets not talk about "bragging" _cough*FSD*cough_.


I said that legacy auto has been bragging about how many EVs they will be making for years but they haven't lived up to their claimed production. They talk a big EV talk but they don't walk the EV walk. This has nothing to do with FSD timeline estimates. Tesla has been almost spot on with their production estimates going all the way back to projections Elon made in 2012 when their stock went public. His long-term EV production volume projections were ridiculed by legacy makers at the time as being completely unrealistic and "pie in the sky", but he hit them on schedule. Look it up. There is a problem of not enough EVs to meet demand and no real competition in the EV market. This is not Tesla's fault. Not at all.

I don't expect automakers to run their business in an altruistic manner or I wouldn't have invested in TSLA stock in 2019. I expect good returns on my invested capital. Tesla makes higher profit margins on EVs than legacy auto makes on ICE vehicles. And that includes legacy autos highest profit margin vehicles, big SUVs and trucks! Tesla makes roughly three times as much profit as legacy auto makes on ICE vehicles and that's on smaller volume and AFTER the $7500 federal tax subsidy expired! The reason legacy is struggling with profit margins on EVs is because they don't take them seriously and they didn't plan to make them in high volume. That is not good business, that's a failing business! And most of their EVs are still subsidized with the $7500 federal tax credit! So it's unclear to me why you are on an EV forum defending legacy auto and throwing shade on Tesla for something that is not their failing!

I get it, you want a cheap EV. But it's not a good look to blame it on Tesla, especially considering that you have already admitted you don't think automakers should be altruistic. Business is not a charity. 

Have you considered buying a Ford Mach-e and taking advantage of the $7500 federal tax credit? Why do you blame Tesla for the lack of cheap EVs? In time, Tesla will drive the price of EVs down to bargain levels but it' going to take a while to catch up with robust demand without some significant help from legacy auto.


----------



## Madmolecule (Oct 8, 2018)

These post are way too long for a bumper sticker. Elon Take a Sabbatical 

If Elon was a real leader, he would talk about the German, Chinese or Texas government like he talks about his own. 

WHEN Elon leaves to become an influencer like he stated who will be the thought leader for Tesla


----------



## Madmolecule (Oct 8, 2018)

The vaporware pyramid scheme, Has historically been very good for the stock price. The over the air updates have been only used at his excuse to not finish the product. I see they’re pushing their acceleration upgrade scam again. I thought if they made the software better, you would get it for free. I’ve already been a victim of this. I would think Tesla would be smart enough to make a package with a small piece of hardware so that it is not just an over the air update. It does not make me trust the other ones. You have to pay for car acceleration, but I got catquest for free? I’m sure you feel you got a great deal.


----------



## Madmolecule (Oct 8, 2018)

Warning: you are driving near an automated car of the future. by future I mean the auto pilot should be complete in late 2023. This Vehicle will do stupid things at stupid times. You have been warned.


----------



## JasonF (Oct 26, 2018)

Madmolecule said:


> Warning: you are driving near an automated car of the future. by future I mean the auto pilot should be complete in late 2023. This Vehicle will do stupid things at stupid times. You have been warned.


Going back to the original thread topic:

Elon Is Not My Space Dad!


----------



## shareef777 (Mar 10, 2019)

PNWmisty said:


> Tesla has been almost spot on with their production estimates going all the way back to projections Elon made in 2012 when their stock went public.


Haha, good one


----------



## Madmolecule (Oct 8, 2018)

In Goth we Trust


----------



## PNWmisty (Aug 19, 2017)

The hate for Tesla and Elon Musk demonstrated here is pathetic! This place is a cesspool of hate and envy of a man and a company trying to make things better for the human race. America (and the world) needs more people like him. It's thinking like that displayed here that caused manufacturing to die out in America. Along with that went millions of good paying jobs and it made America dependent upon Asia for everything from pie tins to American flags.

It's sad to see prolific posters focus their energy on such misguided narratives that are not based on reality.


----------



## JasonF (Oct 26, 2018)

PNWmisty said:


> The hate for Tesla and Elon Musk demonstrated here is pathetic! This place is a cesspool of hate and envy of a man and a company trying to make things better for the human race. America (and the world) needs more people like him. It's thinking like that displayed here that caused manufacturing to die out in America. Along with that went millions of good paying jobs and it made America dependent upon Asia for everything from pie tins to American flags.


And I'm complaining because he's letting that slip!

I've said for a long time now that Tesla has had a constant internal battle going on. Some parts of it want to lean toward mainstream, and others were happier when it was an ultra-luxury company, before the days of the Model 3. Right now, the second faction is winning, and it's doing so because Elon Musk has gotten distracted by SpaceX (which actually runs itself pretty well, and doesn't need babysitting), the Twitter purchase, and politics. He needs to go back to the "old Elon" who slept in the Tesla factory until deliveries picked up - someone who refused to be distracted, and keep the company on focus.

Without that, Tesla is sliding back, and it makes me sad to see it.


----------



## sonoswen (Sep 13, 2021)

Got to agree with JasonF>>>>
"He needs to go back to the "old Elon" who slept in the Tesla factory until deliveries picked up - someone who refused to be distracted, and keep the company on focus.

Without that, Tesla is sliding back, and it makes me sad to see it."

If that is hate, well, guess I am guilty. Mea Culpa,Mea Culpa MeaCulpa


----------



## shareef777 (Mar 10, 2019)

sonoswen said:


> Got to agree with JasonF>>>>
> "He needs to go back to the "old Elon" who slept in the Tesla factory until deliveries picked up - someone who refused to be distracted, and keep the company on focus.
> 
> Without that, Tesla is sliding back, and it makes me sad to see it."
> ...


Apparently you’re either 100% in or you’re not


----------



## Madmolecule (Oct 8, 2018)

PNWmisty said:


> The hate for Tesla and Elon Musk demonstrated here is pathetic! This place is a cesspool of hate and envy of a man and a company trying to make things better for the human race. America (and the world) needs more people like him. It's thinking like that displayed here that caused manufacturing to die out in America. Along with that went millions of good paying jobs and it made America dependent upon Asia for everything from pie tins to American flags.
> 
> It's sad to see prolific posters focus their energy on such misguided narratives that are not based on reality.


yes there may be a little hate, but it’s really just my frustration for believing he was a great engineer and actually developed some of the things he said that he did, especially full self driving. The big Elon lie he is still perpetuating today. It is one thing to say you are developing it and it will be released any day, it’s another thing to sell it with a depreciating asset known as a vehicle. I do not envy him at all, being the richest guy in the world has still not made him happy or quenched his ego. And by the way Elon has built a factory in Asia, Why not build them all in Texas and slap an American flag on each one. I’m sure the Chinese are learning anything from the Tesla factory that they could copy. Or is Elon learning from them?

It’s almost like someone is more upset about his stock tanking than owners having buyers remorse. Feel free to complain about owners expressing their feelings and opinions on a product they purchased on a forum dedicated to just that. I’m sure there’s some tesla stock forums where are you can do the Elon Circle flirt. He has done more damage the Tesla stock with his statements that some disappointed owners ever could.
Still trying to see how making bots to replace factory workers and being anti-organized labor is better for the human race, or were you referring to colonizing mars. I would just ride off on my high horse, but I was never offered one.

In his latest interview, Elon talks about finally buying some advertising because he says magazines we’ll talk bad about Tesla and for protect their advertisers, since they don’t advertise. The smartest guy in the room just figured out how journalism and magazines work.

since I am a Robo taxi Alpha Shepherd living in unified vector space I will keep you updated.

but I did not realize the poor guy was homeless and only spent a dollar a day on food, I will try to do better like my hero.
Elon is the biggest spreader of Fantasy Uncertainty and Doubt


----------



## Nom (Oct 30, 2018)

@PNWmisty - I’m with you. I read the posts of critics that chirp at things that are minor relative to the epic progress and change Musk has drive and think of Teddy Roosevelt’s speech about people that actually stand in the arena vs the critics that enjoy throwing barbs vs doing the work themselves



https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citizenship_in_a_Republic



We need more Elon Musks. More people that will see major global issues and take on the challenge to drive change in a way that will work … for example, taking into account human incentives and emotions (economics and markets).

It is sad to see people saying … where is the $27k car!? Musk is horrible for not delivering it!! How dare Tesla raise prices when parts supplies and batteries are hard to get?!! Production is so limited right now due to capacity constraints that this is not the right move to drive major change. Make money and expand now. Leave room for other car makers to enter market and make at least some money at it. Leave room to pay suppliers more to ramp production. The game theory here is real. Step back and think harder about how to drive this big change Musk is promoting.

Musk deserves massive credit and accolades. Are there issues people can complain about with great justification? Yes! Feel free. I take issue with the ‘holier than thou’ tone, the hatred some spew and the refusal to give credit for the big picture major achievements.


----------



## Madmolecule (Oct 8, 2018)

as an electrical engineer and someone who has been living in electric house, with electric motors for years maybe I missed the revolution . I’m sorry, maybe we can list his accomplishments here.

inventor of electricity
invented the battery
invented the electric AC motor
invented the DC to AC inverter
The first person to run an electric motor from a battery through an inverter
invented the battery charger
Invented the air conditioner that runs off power and not a fan belt.
Invented cruise control
Invented touch screen interface with navigation.
Invented using cameras on cars and having them park automatically
invented manufacturing cars on an assembly line using robotic technology
automating this manufacturing so much that it can be moved to anywhere even if they have unskilled labor
Built an ecological Paradise
invented rockets
top designer of a flightsuit, not a spacesuit.
Invented the giga press, I mean bought it from a German company.
Taught Berlin and all of Germany how to manufacture a vehicle
Taught China about Automation and how to build rockets
Realize that rich people can get richer as the workers would just work harder and in the office, certain country restrictions apply
able to make a $44 billion purchase while using only 5% of his brain space, that’s a big brain. I use more than 5% on self pleasure But I’m just guessing because I don’t know how to evaluate my brain space

Taking my hundred dollar deposit for a trimotor cybertruck, that they already stated would never be built. I’m glad I locked my price in


----------



## JasonF (Oct 26, 2018)

Nom said:


> It is sad to see people saying … where is the $27k car!? Musk is horrible for not delivering it!! How dare Tesla raise prices when parts supplies and batteries are hard to get?!! Production is so limited right now due to capacity constraints that this is not the right move to drive major change. Make money and expand now. Leave room for other car makers to enter market and make at least some money at it. Leave room to pay suppliers more to ramp production. The game theory here is real. Step back and think harder about how to drive this big change Musk is promoting.


I'm not complaining about the present - I'm complaining that the future with Tesla doesn't look good. And I'm not throwing them away, I wish Musk would take the reins again and tell us once again that the direction it looks like Tesla is going isn't where it's going.

And yes, I'm well aware that people who are Tesla stockholders want me to shut up, because Tesla pushing toward $70k minimum for its cars is going to help those people rake it in with such high margins. And maybe they like preserving the exclusivity of the brand. So those people will always say that's just what a Tesla costs, this is what's good for Tesla, and if some of us can't afford it (or Tesla stock), too bad. Because "EV's for all" isn't good for their long-term stock price, and exclusivity and ultra-luxury pricing is, and I understand that. But it's also not the future that Elon Musk and Tesla promised us, and that's what I complain about.


----------



## sonoswen (Sep 13, 2021)

shareef777 said:


> Apparently you’re either 100% in or you’re not


No, it's a gray area, like some many other issues.


----------



## sonoswen (Sep 13, 2021)

"Elon Is Not My Space Dad!" not a bad one,,,may do it.


----------



## Madmolecule (Oct 8, 2018)

Horse Powered


----------



## jongerstein (1 mo ago)

Tesla Strong, Musk Wrong


----------



## jongerstein (1 mo ago)

Tesla Forward, Musk Backward


----------



## Klaus-rf (Mar 6, 2019)

El No!


----------



## francoisp (Sep 28, 2018)

PNWmisty said:


> Actions speak louder than words. I judge a man by what he does, not by what he says and, by that measure, Musk outclasses just about every public figure that exists today.
> 
> Without Elon Musk the world would be more boring and a less happy place. We need more men like him.


So we have to take bad with the good is what you're saying. Have you read is latest provocative tweet about Fauci? If he was truly gutsy he'd write the save about China's Xi but no he hides behind his protected speech and spews his venom against someone whose only care is to protect the American people.


----------



## myquealer (1 mo ago)

Musk Stinks


----------



## francoisp (Sep 28, 2018)

Elon's behavior is hurting Tesla's image big time with his now former supporters.

Tesla approval rating dips into negative territory: survey


----------



## francoisp (Sep 28, 2018)

Tesla stock is minus 58% from its highs as I typed this despite best year ever. The stock was overvalued in large part because of its charismatic leader. The veil is off and people don't like what they see anymore.


----------



## Klaus-rf (Mar 6, 2019)

Elon - Eloff.

( Spoken to cadence of "Wax On, Wax Off" )


----------



## Nom (Oct 30, 2018)

@francoisp - more context is needed. 
TSLA market cap is still $500B

Ford and GM are each about $50B
Toyota ~$200B

You make it sound like the market thinks Tesla has lost it shine. The numbers above beg to differ. Looks like many many people still love what they see at Tesla.


----------



## francoisp (Sep 28, 2018)

Nom said:


> @francoisp - more context is needed.
> TSLA market cap is still $500B
> 
> Ford and GM are each about $50B
> ...


SpaceX/Starlink, based on fundings talks, may be valued around $150B. That leaves $350B for Tesla Energy, Automotive, Boring. That's still a high valuation. Roth Capital recently said that Tesla shouldn't be valued more than Toyota.


----------



## francoisp (Sep 28, 2018)

Musk's impopularity cought on Twitter. Life choices is a b****!


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1602229546383728640


----------



## PRS (28 d ago)

Like my car, hate the maker.


----------



## iChris93 (Feb 3, 2017)

PRS said:


> hate the maker.


That’s giving him too much credit!


----------



## fuddy (Dec 21, 2020)




----------



## PNWmisty (Aug 19, 2017)

francoisp said:


> So we have to take bad with the good is what you're saying. Have you read is latest provocative tweet about Fauci? If he was truly gutsy he'd write the save about China's Xi but no he hides behind his protected speech and spews his venom against someone whose only care is to protect the American people.


At a minimum, Fauci should be investigated for lying to congress when he claimed the National Institute of Health (NIH) had not funded gain-of-function research at the Wuhan Institute of Virology. This is risky genetic research into viruses that was going on at the Wuhan Institute of Virology in Wuhan, China when COVID started spreading to humans. The research was specifically about whether the Coronavirus (which was only known in bats) could spread to humans. And, common knowledge of those in the field was that it could not without an intermediate host, at least until a version started spreading in the very same city where the risky genetic research was being funded by the NIH. The research money was quietly pulled by the NIH in April 2020 after the virus had spread to the U.S. Covering this up to protect yourself from prosecution, while testifying to Congress, is a serious crime. A prosecutor needs to do an investigation before someone is prosecuted, but if the evidence shows a crime occurred, I think it should be prosecuted. It's actually pretty clear that Fauci lied to Congress about this very point.

In Major Shift, NIH Admits Funding Risky Virus Research in Wuhan | Vanity Fair

Much less serious (but still a potential crime) was Dr. Fauci's medical opinion during the early part of the pandemic that wearing a mask was not necessary to protect against getting infected with Coronavirus. He later admitted he lied about that because he was concerned medical professionals might not be able to source enough masks. That is inexcusable to use his trusted position as the top doctor in the country to mislead people about how to best protect themselves from sickness and possible death simply because he thought the doctors and nurses safety justified lying about the actual facts about how Coronavirus spreads. The truth does matter. Sure, allocate all the masks you can source to the healthcare professionals but don't lie to the public about how the virus spreads. I don't think Elon is being unreasonable to suggest that nobody should be above the law.

Very popular US senators agree with Elon on this, at least one of whom is a medical doctor, so it's not exactly a far-out position to suggest that prosecutors look into these charges and actually do their jobs.


----------



## SalisburySam (Jun 6, 2018)

PNWmisty said:


> At a minimum, Fauci should be investigated for lying to congress…


I gave up at the part about lying to Congress. I’d rather see an investigation about Congress lying to citizens. Just me, I guess.


----------



## PNWmisty (Aug 19, 2017)

SalisburySam said:


> I gave up at the part about lying to Congress. I’d rather see an investigation about Congress lying to citizens. Just me, I guess.


I'm of the belief that a congressman is not above the law either. If they lie under oath to protect their own recklessness or wrongdoing, they should also be prosecuted. A person's station in life should not determine whether they get prosecuted. It should be based on the evidence of an unbiased investigation. This is a key tenant of our judicial system that needs to be adhered to and I'm heartened to see Elon standing up for the principle that someone shouldn't be able to avoid prosecution simply because they hold a high position of trust.

Without this principle being adhered to, people in positions of power and trust can lie under oath and cover-up their misdeeds with impunity. That's not good for the proper functioning of the system.


----------

