# Wheel and Tire Tech



## Mad Hungarian

Hello all and welcome to the official M3OC Wheel and Tire Tech thread.
My objective here is to create a kind of one-stop-shop where we can all come to discuss any and all technical issues related to wheels and tires and I can chime in to help shine some light. As they tend to come up frequently but mutate like viruses and then re-appear all over the place, I thought it's be a lot easier if we try and keep it under one roof.
I will do my best to reply regularly and in a timely manner, but please be patient as my life at times (or just me, really) can best be described as chaotic.
*Full disclosure:* My day job is Director of Technical Services for Fastco, makers of Fast Wheels, Braelin Alloy and Replika as well as distributor for many major tire brands. As such I'm fortunate to be immersed in this stuff every day and have access to much smarter folks on just about anything related to the subject, and am happy to share whatever I can. However I do NOT intend to turn this into a rolling billboard for just our products. There are hundreds of manufacturers, distributors and retailers in this business, many of whom I know personally and have great respect for, and I intend to be as impartial as is humanely possible. I want people to get straight stories here, and if I can't deliver I'll do my best to find you someone who can.


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## TrevP

Maybe you can start by telling everyone about your findings with Tesla TPMS systems. The info you gave me when I bought the wheels and snow tires from you was valuable but I'll let you tell the group


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## Mad Hungarian

TrevP said:


> Maybe you can start by telling everyone about your findings with Tesla TPMS systems. The info you gave me when I bought the wheels and snow tires from you was valuable but I'll let you tell the group


Sure!

First a nano-primer:

TPMS, or Tire Pressure Monitoring Systems, have been around since the 90's but only went mainstream in the mid 2000's when the U.S. regulatory agency NHTSA decided they should become mandatory. The E.U. has recently followed suit, but they are not obligatory elsewhere (yet) so not all markets have them as standard or even optional. This is particularly confusing in Canada, where some models otherwise identical to the U.S. version have, and others don't, largely depending on where they were built.

There are two main types:

*Direct: *In this system each wheel has an actual pressure sensor inside it, almost always attached to the backside of the air valve except for Ford, who for a while had the mounted in the drop well (that deep trench inside the wheel's barrel that allows the tires to be fitted) and strapped in there with a giant hose clamp. Direct systems can be very basic (light on if pressure drops on any tire) or fancy (real-time pressure display and temperature for each tire). With this system you need to have sensors in all your wheels, summer, winter, track, whatever, for it to work. The sensors also need to be programmed to the vehicle, otherwise you'd be getting random pressure info from everyone around you! This can be joyfully easy (Tesla, some Hondas and Chryslers) to insanely complex, requiring special tools, computers or visits to the dealer (these OEMs shall remain nameless. You know who you are).
Aviso: In the U.S. you cannot knowingly disable the system without running afoul of the law, so good idea to make sure your new wheels have them. Not sure about E.U., and in Canada we can do whatever we want. Almost all cars can function perfectly well without the sensors, the TPMS warning light will then be on full time but it should be noted that on some models you may not be able to select some of the sportier Drive modes nor deactivate Traction or Stability controls. If you have an icy, uphill driveway, not being able to deactivate Traction Control can be a real bummer. You've been warned.

*Indirect: *A lovely and simple solution (thank you, nameless engineers) that uses the vehicle's existing hardware to figure out that a tire is losing pressure. This is done with the ABS sensors in each hub that monitor the speeds of each wheel. If one tire loses pressure it will get shorter as it goes flat, reducing its effective diameter, and basic math tells us it will have to spin faster to keep up with the other three. The computer can recognize that pattern and then set off a warning. Unfortunately the early systems had to have significant delays programmed into them so for it not to trigger every time you turned left or right, when the wheels will need to turn at different speeds. It also has a hard time with multiple simultaneous pressure losses, so most OEMs went with Direct where required. However some new versions with additional input for the more advanced sensors in the Stability Control system have allowed Indirect to function much more efficiently so it is slowly making a comeback.

Tesla uses the Direct system on all its models, the 3 included. The good news is since 2014 they essentially all use the same sensor, OE part number 1034602 and they all program the same way, no tools required, as follows:

*Tesla TPMS Relearn Procedure*

1. Ensure all tires are inflated to placard pressure
2. Get in car, making sure all doors and the trunk are closed
3. Turn vehicle on
4. On center screen select "Controls"
5. Select "Settings"
6. Select "Service and Reset"
7. Select "Tire Pressure Monitor"
8. Select "Reset Sensors"
9. Select the tire size
10. Drive for at least 10 minutes above 20 mph so vehicle can learn the new sensor ID numbers, or if this is after a rotation, learn where the old ones are now repositioned

I should note that after we switched from the 19" OE to the 18" winter setup on the Model 3 we couldn't get past Step 7 until we started driving the car. About 5 minutes it suddenly popped the Tire Size selection display onto the screen, and when we selected 18" it confirmed all was good and began displaying pressures immediately. Not sure if any of the S or X owners have ever experienced that. But it was still easy as pie compared to some of the other systems out there and makes it simple for owners to do their own rotations and summer/winter swaps.

*EDIT 10/16/18:* It appears that for Model 3 as of V9 (or possibly even late V8) the TPMS reset function is no longer available in the Service menu.
However the process is now even simpler, just install your new sensors, start driving and after 15 minutes or so you will get a pop-up asking you to select the wheel diameter installed. Select the correct size and you're done!


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## Guest

Well written. 

BMW uses indirect as default. Direct has been an option or maybe standard on upper end.
I love both methods. Though I would vote for indirect for cheaper vehicles. Using the same sensors on 
many many models should make them cheaper (they started at way above 100€ each years ago). But the main
disadvantage of this direct system is that it is not kept working forever. 
Sensors have battery that will die after 5-8 years and/or 150 000-200 000km. Can't be replaced, need new sensor, all 4 of them.
Sensor might fail prematurely due to salt, corrosion. It might start leaking, before battery runs out. At least there is no need
to change the regular valve step every 2-3 years (these rubber ones fail slightly faster).
Fix-a-flat foam might ruin sensor. Sometimes cleaning helps.

Dead sensor sensor error in EU will make the TPMS light come on. Which will fail you with MOT. But it can be "fixed" by coding.
For cheaper vehicles, I would prefer manufacturers to use indirect method. People will find a way to not waste money
on an old vehicle.
I would also agree that all performance vehicles that can hit 240km/h should have direct TPMS. It is more critical for these vehicles to
have not only pressure but also temperature reading (maybe EU only as US doesn't have very high speed driving anyway). 

PS: 
I've seen many Tesla videos with "awesome wheels" with "temporarily" no TPMS sensors


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## JMac

Who manufactures the standard 18" Model 3 wheel? I.e., if I wanted to buy a set so I can put my own winter tires on (not a fan of Pirellis) where do I go?


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## Frank99

Is there an industry standard strength requirement for aftermarket wheels? How does it compare with oem wheels? I've got to assume that some wheel mfgs 'cheat' a bit on strength,especially in the realm of lightweight wheels; how do i determine that the wheel I'm buying won't break on the first pothole?


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## Mad Hungarian

Jeff MacDonald said:


> Who manufactures the standard 18" Model 3 wheel? I.e., if I wanted to buy a set so I can put my own winter tires on (not a fan of Pirellis) where do I go?


They would be built under license to Tesla's specs and sold exclusively through their stores. However you don't have to buy the whole package from Tesla, you could just get a set of OE wheels and get the tires of your choice elsewhere.
I'd keep a eye on eBay though, as more cars get delivered I suspect we'll see more and more people selling off their OE wheels to fit the aftermarket ones. We've even seen the odd set of factory-new ones mysteriously show up there.


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## JWardell

arnis said:


> BMW uses indirect as default. Direct has been an option or maybe standard on upper end.


I don't think BMW has used indirect for years, at least here in the states. My 2004 MINI was indirect, that was nice when buying new rims etc not to have to deal with and pay for TPMS. But it's probably not as accurate or quick to detect a flat.

My 2009 BMW and 2013 MINI both had TPMS sensors.


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## Mad Hungarian

Frank99 said:


> Is there an industry standard strength requirement for aftermarket wheels? How does it compare with oem wheels? I've got to assume that some wheel mfgs 'cheat' a bit on strength,especially in the realm of lightweight wheels; how do i determine that the wheel I'm buying won't break on the first pothole?


Hey @Frank99 haven't forgotten about you, just haven't had time to catch up here and this is one that needs some detail.
Stay tuned!

EDIT: Still not going to have time to answer this topic for another few days, my apologies. Lots to talk about here and I'd rather do it right.


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## Mad Hungarian

JWardell said:


> I don't think BMW has used indirect for years, at least here in the states. My 2004 MINI was indirect, that was nice when buying new rims etc not to have to deal with and pay for TPMS. But it's probably not as accurate or quick to detect a flat.
> 
> My 2009 BMW and 2013 MINI both had TPMS sensors.


Almost all BMWs in Canada are Indirect, but most U.S. went to Direct for the reasons I described. Pretty sure E.U. models are indirect as well...


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## LUXMAN

Any idea what size lug nuts would be for the Model 3?
I want to put Gorilla Lugs and Locks on vs the standard Nut type lugs.
Thanks


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## Mad Hungarian

LUXMAN said:


> Any idea what size lug nuts would be for the Model 3?
> I want to put Gorilla Lugs and Locks on vs the standard Nut type lugs.
> Thanks


Pretty much identical to Model S:
14x1.5mm thread / conical seat / 21mm hex


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## Frank99

Mad Hungarian - No problem at all on the delay. I was mostly throwing those out as ideas for you for future posts, although I am interested in the answers. I figured those would help give the thread the proper tech focus.

/frank


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## Guest

Just a remark about lug nuts: *NEVER LUBRICATE. *
Torque values will shift dramatically to unsafe territory (either metal stretching or coming loose).
And about painting the wheels:
Paint may not be applied on conical surfaces. It can ooze out loosening the nut.
Same story for brake disc and wheel mating surface.


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## mishakim

arnis said:


> Just a remark about lug nuts: *NEVER LUBRICATE. *


That should apply for pretty much all screw-based fasteners. If you need lube, something is wrong, and lube will only compound your problems. (Unless of course the design calls for lube, and you are using it in the exact manner specified)


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## Guest

Well, sometimes bolts are made out of stronger metal and can accept more load.
And sometimes more clamping force is better (and no additional torque is available).
That doesn't apply to cars.


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## Fredbob711

@Mad Hungarian I'm going to show my ignorance when it comes to this topic and probably make someone cringe.

I've always had a pretty simple requirement for my wheels/tires... there need to be 4 on my car, the tires need to be inflated, and they need to be round. I've never worried about having a separate set of winter tires or anything. So this is all new territory for me.

How about a quick explainer on what's needed and the process to switch out a set of wheels on the Model 3? (swear I read somewhere that the torque requirements for lug nuts on the 3 were pretty extreme to the point of not being a DIY job?)
Maybe some tool recommendations for the job? I don't need professional grade tools, but I'm willing to spend a bit more for sturdy/reliable and I have absolutely no reference for where to start.


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## Mad Hungarian

Fredbob711 said:


> @Mad Hungarian I'm going to show my ignorance when it comes to this topic and probably make someone cringe.
> 
> I've always had a pretty simple requirement for my wheels/tires... there need to be 4 on my car, the tires need to be inflated, and they need to be round. I've never worried about having a separate set of winter tires or anything. So this is all new territory for me.
> 
> How about a quick explainer on what's needed and the process to switch out a set of wheels on the Model 3? (swear I read somewhere that the torque requirements for lug nuts on the 3 were pretty extreme to the point of not being a DIY job?)
> Maybe some tool recommendations for the job? I don't need professional grade tools, but I'm willing to spend a bit more for sturdy/reliable and I have absolutely no reference for where to start.


Glad to help.
At the simplest level, you need:

- An 18" or longer 1/2" drive breaker bar with a long 21 mm impact socket
- A 1/2" drive torque wrench that goes up to at least 150 ft-lbs
- A 2 ton hydraulic floor jack

If you shop judiciously you can probably find all this in decent quality stuff for $300 or less. Potentially half that or less if you go the Craigslist route.
A cordless impact gun is a nice addition, but as you point out the torque value specified for Tesla lugs is 129 ft-lbs and the guns that'll reliably remove that tend to be pricy. Note that loosening or tightening to that value by hand is cake as long as you have a long enough bar.
But as long as you're not going for a pit lane record, the above tools are plenty to get the job done with ease.

As for the process:

- Park the car on level surface
- If equipped with 18" Aero wheels with covers, remove the covers by grasping the inside edges of the vent holes pulling off straight toward you
- If equipped with 19" Sport wheels, using the hook-shaped cap removal tool that comes with the car and insert the end of the hook into the small hole at the bottom of the "T" logo and pull
- Take the breaker bar, install the 21 mm socket and loosen lugs on all four wheels. Don't remove them! Just get them loose enough to turn by hand
- Take the floor jack and position it so that the lifting pad is directly underneath the jacking point nearest the wheel you're removing. The hardened jack points are located here:









- Jack the car up until the bottom of the tire is at least an inch or two off the ground
- Remove the lug nuts and the wheel
- Install the new wheel and thread on the nuts until they are snug, but don't try to fully torque them yet
- Lower the jack, set your torque wrench to 129 ft-lbs, install the 21 mm socket and then finish tightening the lugs. Tighten them by following a criss-cross star pattern, like below, going around several times until your torque wrench "clicks" firmly to signal each lug is fully tightened










Repeat for the other three wheels

NOTE: These instructions assume you are installing a second set of OE Tesla wheels, or aftermarket wheels that fit exactly like OE and re-use the OE lug nuts.
However many aftermarket wheels require hub-centric rings to center them on the hubs and/or different lug nuts to fit inside the wheel's lug pocket. If so, be sure to use these correct accessories every time you run the aftermarket wheels, and remove them and use the OE Tesla lugs to re-install the Tesla wheels.


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## Jongaud

I own a Leaf in Canada (where TPMS are not mandatory but winter tires are) and my current winter wheels do not have TPMS. The car simply displays an icon on the dash saying they are missing but it has not effect on other systems.

Is it the same for the Model 3 ? Can we drive without TPMS or there is some drawback like a button to click on the screen every time you start the car ?


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## Jongaud

Do we need a special adapter between the jack and the jack points ?



Mad Hungarian said:


> and position it so that the lifting pad is directly underneath the jacking point nearest the wheel you're removing. The hardened jack points are located here:


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## garsh

Jongaud said:


> Is it the same for the Model 3 ? Can we drive without TPMS or there is some drawback like a button to click on the screen every time you start the car ?


In this video, you can see the Model S complaining about a TPMS issue during the 0-60mph runs. So I'm guessing that's all it does.


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## Guest

Jongaud said:


> Do we need a special adapter between the jack and the jack points ?


No need for special adapter. A flat disc will lift the car. But I'd add a piece of rubber in between, 1cm thick, just to avoid scratches.
But you would definitely want to chock the tires. Raising rear end a lot can raise the opposite side rear tire.
There are cheap rubber pads for sale if you can't find random piece of thick rubber.


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## Mad Hungarian

Jongaud said:


> I own a Leaf in Canada (where TPMS are not mandatory but winter tires are) and my current winter wheels do not have TPMS. The car simply displays an icon on the dash saying they are missing but it has not effect on other systems.
> 
> Is it the same for the Model 3 ? Can we drive without TPMS or there is some drawback like a button to click on the screen every time you start the car ?


The car should remain fine for normal driving but you may not be able to deactivate the Traction Control system. Haven't seen anyone try this yet on the 3 so we'll wait and see.


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## zosoisnotaword

Mad Hungarian said:


> Sure!
> 
> First a nano-primer:
> 
> TPMS, or Tire Pressure Monitoring Systems, have been around since the 90's but only went mainstream in the mid 2000's when the U.S. regulatory agency NHTSA decided they should become mandatory. The E.U. has recently followed suit, but they are not obligatory elsewhere (yet) so not all markets have them as standard or even optional. This is particularly confusing in Canada, where some models otherwise identical to the U.S. version have, and others don't, largely depending on where they were built.
> 
> There are two main types:
> 
> *Direct: *In this system each wheel has an actual pressure sensor inside it, almost always attached to the backside of the air valve except for Ford, who for a while had the mounted in the drop well (that deep trench inside the wheel's barrel that allows the tires to be fitted) and strapped in there with a giant hose clamp. Direct systems can be very basic (light on if pressure drops on any tire) or fancy (real-time pressure display and temperature for each tire). With this system you need to have sensors in all your wheels, summer, winter, track, whatever, for it to work. The sensors also need to be programmed to the vehicle, otherwise you'd be getting random pressure info from everyone around you! This can be joyfully easy (Tesla, some Hondas and Chryslers) to insanely complex, requiring special tools, computers or visits to the dealer (these OEMs shall remain nameless. You know who you are).
> Aviso: In the U.S. you cannot knowingly disable the system without running afoul of the law, so good idea to make sure your new wheels have them. Not sure about E.U., and in Canada we can do whatever we want. Almost all cars can function perfectly well without the sensors, the TPMS warning light will then be on full time but it should be noted that on some models you may not be able to select some of the sportier Drive modes nor deactivate Traction or Stability controls. If you have an icy, uphill driveway, not being able to deactivate Traction Control can be a real bummer. You've been warned.
> 
> *Indirect: *A lovely and simple solution (thank you, nameless engineers) that uses the vehicle's existing hardware to figure out that a tire is losing pressure. This is done with the ABS sensors in each hub that monitor the speeds of each wheel. If one tire loses pressure it will get shorter as it goes flat, reducing its effective diameter, and basic math tells us it will have to spin faster to keep up with the other three. The computer can recognize that pattern and then set off a warning. Unfortunately the early systems had to have significant delays programmed into them so for it not to trigger every time you turned left or right, when the wheels will need to turn at different speeds. It also has a hard time with multiple simultaneous pressure losses, so most OEMs went with Direct where required. However some new versions with additional input for the more advanced sensors in the Stability Control system have allowed Indirect to function much more efficiently so it is slowly making a comeback.
> 
> Tesla uses the Direct system on all its models, the 3 included. The good news is since 2014 they essentially all use the same sensor, OE part number 1034602 and they all program the same way, no tools required, as follows:
> 
> 1. Ensure all tires are inflated to placard pressure
> 2. Get in car, close all doors and trunk
> 3. Turn vehicle on
> 4. On center screen select "Controls"
> 5. Select "Settings"
> 6. Select "Service and Reset"
> 7. Select "Tire Pressure Monitor"
> 8. Select "Reset Sensors"
> 9. Select the tire size
> 10. Drive for at least 10 minutes above 20 mph so vehicle can learn the new sensor ID numbers, or if this is after a rotation, learn where the old ones are now repositioned
> 
> I should note that after we switched from the 19" OE to the 18" winter setup on the Model 3 we couldn't get past Step 7 until we started driving the car. About 5 minutes it suddenly popped the Tire Size selection display onto the screen, and when we selected 18" it confirmed all was good and began displaying pressures immediately. Not sure if any of the S or X owners have ever experienced that. But it was still easy as pie compared to some of the other systems out there and makes it simple for owners to do their own rotations and summer/winter swaps.


Thanks for the info. Do you know if Tesla's sensors are universal in how they mount to the wheel? I'm interested in aftermarkets (the smoked Fast F237 Aristo caught my eye), and just wondering if the sensor mount is standard. From the pictures I was able to find it looks like they'll work with aftermarket wheels but just wanted to see if you or anyone else knows for sure.

On a similar subject can you get us a straight front view of the F237? It looks like the spokes widen out from front to back, but it's hard to tell how much from the angled view.


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## Mad Hungarian

zosoisnotaword said:


> Thanks for the info. Do you know if Tesla's sensors are universal in how they mount to the wheel? I'm interested in aftermarkets (the smoked Fast F237 Aristo caught my eye), and just wondering if the sensor mount is standard. From the pictures I was able to find it looks like they'll work with aftermarket wheels but just wanted to see if you or anyone else knows for sure.
> 
> On a similar subject can you get us a straight front view of the F237? It looks like the spokes widen out from front to back, but it's hard to tell how much from the angled view.


Yes, like a lot of the newer OEM sensors, the Tesla units have an articulated, or "hinged" if you prefer, connection between the valve stem and the sensor body. You can see it in this pic...










This means you can adjust the placement of the body to suit a wide variety of internal wheel shapes. When you install and tighten the exterior clamping nut on the valve it locks the body in place at the desired angle. You just need to make sure that the wheel you're using has a flat surface at least 18 mm in diameter on the backside of the valve hole so that the sealing washer can seat correctly. All our wheels have that.

Here's a face view of the F237 (apologize for lousy quality, a quickie stolen from our sample room):


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## mishakim

A question occurred to me this morning: how common is it for AWD to require different wheels? I haven't seen anyone speculating that there will be a third wheel choice when Dual Motor becomes available, or that the aeros won't be available. Just as a sanity check, looking at other makes, BMW 3-series starts with 17" on either drivetrain, but Ford Fusion goes from 17" to 18" if you get AWD (higher trims start at 18 or 19 and don't change).


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## garsh

mishakim said:


> A question occurred to me this morning: how common is it for AWD to require different wheels?


Not common. Wheels choice is mostly dictated by brake caliper clearance, and that generally doesn't change on the AWD version of a vehicle.

Now, that doesn't preclude a company from forcing you to accept some additional upgrades when you choose AWD, such as the pricier wheels.


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## Mad Hungarian

mishakim said:


> A question occurred to me this morning: how common is it for AWD to require different wheels? I haven't seen anyone speculating that there will be a third wheel choice when Dual Motor becomes available, or that the aeros won't be available. Just as a sanity check, looking at other makes, BMW 3-series starts with 17" on either drivetrain, but Ford Fusion goes from 17" to 18" if you get AWD (higher trims start at 18 or 19 and don't change).


Two things of interest on this front that we already know for sure, just from reading the owner's manual:

1. There will be a staggered 19" size available.
No one knows (yet) if this will be standard on Dual Motor, optional on Dual Motor, or optional across the board at some point.

2. There will be a larger front brake (350mm disc) on the "Plus" model.
Now my personal feeling is that "Plus" is the new "P", which if true to old-school P form means a Dual Motor with a bigger rear motor, beefier wiring/fuse, Ludicous mode, etc. But maybe it's just an optional performance package that can be added to the regular Dual or even RWD cars. Whatever it is, these are the brakes that go with it.

To expand on @garsh 's point, Tesla makes absolutely no dimensional changes to any of the hub or suspension component locations based on drivetrain configuration. Meaning that the base wheels for both RWD and Dual are identical.
We have also already seen that the current RWD Model 3 chassis is prepped and ready to go for Dual. There was a picture from You You's Facebook feed when he was servicing the bearings in Colorado where you could see the blank plates on the backside of the hubs where the front drive axles will go.
The only unknown is whether the Dual will come standard or optionally with these "Plus" brakes or not. But even if it does, I'd say there's still and excellent chance that 18" wheels will still fit. Whether Tesla offers them or not on Dual is another matter. But I have a feeling for the sake of range-conscious buyer that wants AWD (of which I suspect there are many) they will.


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## Vladimír Michálek

Mad Hungarian said:


> About 5 minutes it suddenly popped the Tire Size selection display onto the screen, and when we selected 18" it confirmed all was good and began displaying pressures immediately.


Why does it need to know the wheel/tire size?


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## Mad Hungarian

Vladimír Michálek said:


> Why does it need to know the wheel/tire size?


Pressures are different, 18" is 3.1 bar (45 PSI) and 19" is 2.9 bar (42 PSI)


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## TheTony

Has anyone had the 18" wheels balanced from anyone other than Tesla?

I picked up a 2nd set of the 18" wheels to put a set of winter tires on, and had them mounted at a local shop this week. I'm curious to compare the results with others who have completed similar, especially with regard to what kind of wheel weights and location they used.

The weights the local shop used don't bug me at all, especially since I'll likely end up looking for a set of wheel covers to keep the snow out of the wheel as much as possible. That said, I just now realize that I've not seen any that are immediately obvious on the photos of aero wheels that I've seen that are delivered with the stock Michelin tires. So, I'm kind of curious as to why that is - are they there and just not noticeable (to me, anyway, in the photos/videos I've seen) - or are they installed on the interior surface without issue?

Here's a quick snapshot of one of mine, after mounting and balancing:


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## garsh

@TheTony, I found a couple pictures where the wheel weights are visible. I assume these are original wheels and therefore balanced at the factory.


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## TheTony

Ok. I guess the real answer is that I haven't seen enough photos of aero wheels!


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## garsh

TheTony said:


> Ok. I guess the real answer is that I haven't seen enough photos of aero wheels!


To be fair, the weights that Tesla is using are a lot less conspicuous.


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## TheTony

garsh said:


> To be fair, the weights that Tesla is using are a lot less conspicuous.


Agreed. It looks like the ones they use are the same overall dimensions, but theirs are trimmed to size rather than being segmented, don't have any markings, and are a flatter color, so they blend in a little better.


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## Mad Hungarian

TheTony said:


> Agreed. It looks like the ones they use are the same overall dimensions, but theirs are trimmed to size rather than being segmented, don't have any markings, and are a flatter color, so they blend in a little better.


I'm kind of surprised that the factory didn't go to the trouble of spec'ing them in the same colour as the wheel, at the volume their doing it would have been easy. Or at least used black, that's what we typically use on all our dark finish wheels when shipping mounted assemblies. Much less conspicuous.


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## Guest

There are black weights available. Also sometimes, pro's hide the weights behind the spoke.
And in some cases, divide the weight in half and add half behind one spoke and other half behind the second spoke.

PS. Everybody who cares. Please be sure nobody mounts lead wheel weights (ones that can be scratched with metal objects).
FE and ZN coated are fine. Lead is toxic in the long run. Data is all available online. Just Google "lead wheel weights toxic".


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## ahagge

Hot off the Edmunds presses - a seat-of-the-pants review of the 19" wheels and tires with a verbal comparison to the 18" wheels and tires from their original review:






Original Model 3 review with 18" wheels and tires here:






Sounds like those of you who spent the extra $$ on the 19" setup have some bragging rights now...


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## Bokonon

ahagge said:


> Sounds like those of you who spent the extra $$ on the 19" setup have some bragging rights now...


...at least until the subject shifts to energy efficiency and highway range.


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## Sandy

Mad Hungarian said:


> Pressures are different, 18" is 3.1 bar (45 PSI) and 19" is 2.9 bar (42 PSI)


FYI, Tesla has lowered the required PSI on the 18" from 45 to 42 psi. Not sure why. Possibly ride related not that 3 psi is going to make much of a difference.


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## Mad Hungarian

Sandy said:


> FYI, Tesla has lowered the required PSI on the 18" from 45 to 42 psi. Not sure why. Possibly ride related not that 3 psi is going to make much of a difference.


That's interesting, is this in the vid you posted (haven't time to watch right now) or from elsewhere?


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## Sandy

Mad Hungarian said:


> That's interesting, is this in the vid you posted (haven't time to watch right now) or from elsewhere?


Someone posted a picture of a recent 18" cars doorjam tire label showing 42 psi. Another source posted a table showing pressures for the 18, 19 AND 20" tires with both the 18 and 19 showing 42. Think I can find them now........


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## Mad Hungarian

Sandy said:


> Someone posted a picture of a recent 18" cars doorjam tire label showing 42 psi. Another source posted a table showing pressures for the 18, 19 AND 20" tires with both the 18 and 19 showing 42. Think I can find them now........


No worries, I believe you . It actually made no sense to us when we saw the original 18" as being higher, it should have actually been the other way around as the 19" tire has a lower load index number, 19" is 96 XL vs. 18" at 98 XL. However as the load carrying capacity on both tires maxes out at 42 PSI anyway it's kind of a moot point, any additional pressure beyond that is only going to enhance handling, high speed endurance or reduce rolling resistance. I'd say they were shooting for that last one, what with the 18" being the range freak's size of choice, but agree they may have backed off due to the harsh ride complaints.


----------



## Rhaekar

I'm looking at your FC04 19" wheels in bronze and only see them with a +45 offset. The stock 19's are a +40 and the TST turbines which seem to be popular are a +35. The titanium and black come in a +35 offset.

I've only seen your wheels for sale at https://www.1010tires.com/Wheels/Fast+Wheels/FC04/Painted/Bronze, are they an authorized dealer?


----------



## Sandy

Mad Hungarian said:


> No worries, I believe you . It actually made no sense to us when we saw the original 18" as being higher, it should have actually been the other way around as the 19" tire has a lower load index number, 19" is 96 XL vs. 18" at 98 XL. However as the load carrying capacity on both tires maxes out at 42 PSI anyway it's kind of a moot point, any additional pressure beyond that is only going to enhance handling, high speed endurance or reduce rolling resistance. I'd say they were shooting for that last one, what with the 18" being the range freak's size of choice, but agree they may have backed off due to the harsh ride complaints.


Found it man! Page 126+127 of the newest owners manual. What's really interesting are the 'other' tires listed under under 18" and 19". The inclusion of the S1 Evo3 and the PS4 is interesting. The PS4S on the 20" makes total sense.


----------



## LUXMAN

Sandy said:


> Found it man! Page 126+127 of the newest owners manual. What's really interesting are the 'other' tires listed under under 18" and 19". I'm thinking the Ventus Evo3 was speced for Tesla.
> 
> View attachment 7673
> 
> 
> View attachment 7674


Ok. You are gonna have to explain to the uninformed (me) why the Evo3 being spec ed for the 3 is a thing...


----------



## Sandy

LUXMAN said:


> Ok. You are gonna have to explain to the uninformed (me) why the Evo3 being spec ed for the 3 is a thing...


During any manufacturers vehicle development they work closed with tire suppliers. Suppliers will actually manufacture specific tires expressly for that vehicle. This is the case with the 3's 18" Michelin and 19" Conti's. They are designed and manufactured Model 3 specific but of course could be used on other vehicles as well. You can see here with the current tires that they are both Tesla spec:

https://www.tirerack.com/tires/tire...8MXM4PXL&vehicleSearch=false&fromCompare1=yes

https://www.tirerack.com/tires/tire...RXXLCOSI&vehicleSearch=false&fromCompare1=yes


----------



## John

ahagge said:


> Hot off the Edmunds presses - a seat-of-the-pants review of the 19" wheels and tires with a verbal comparison to the 18" wheels and tires from their original review:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Original Model 3 review with 18" wheels and tires here:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sounds like those of you who spent the extra $$ on the 19" setup have some bragging rights now...


Hey, thanks for finding this!
The most surprising statement was when he said that Aeros wth higher tire pressure were harsher than sport wheels with 42 PSI.
I'm also a little surprised about the accelerating and stopping distances; I didn't realize that the limit of traction would be that different.
Love the lateral G data. 0.93 is no slouch. A Porsche GT3 RS logs a 0.95, for instance.


----------



## LUXMAN

Sandy said:


> During any manufacturers vehicle development they work closed with tire suppliers. Suppliers will actually manufacture specific tires expressly for that vehicle. This is the case with the 3's 18" Michelin and 19" Conti's. They are designed and manufactured Model 3 specific but of course could be used on other vehicles as well. You can see here with the current tires that they are both Tesla spec:
> 
> https://www.tirerack.com/tires/tire...8MXM4PXL&vehicleSearch=false&fromCompare1=yes
> 
> https://www.tirerack.com/tires/tire...RXXLCOSI&vehicleSearch=false&fromCompare1=yes


Ok. I thought you meant the Evo3 had some special specs or something.


----------



## DR61

Looks like Tesla is inculding two summer performance tires in its Model 3 manual (Hankook and Michelin). Perhaps they will be an option in the future or just a recommended replacement if summer performance is an objective.


----------



## Scrapps

I want to see them do this test with some staggered 20' running Pilot Sports. The grip is incredible.


----------



## Sandy

LUXMAN said:


> Ok. I thought you meant the Evo3 had some special specs or something.


They might not be special but the tire would have been developed to meet Tesla's specific criteria. Load rating, speed rating, XL, LRR, treadwear, temperature and traction ratings, acoustic properties. Glad to see they have included some 'max performance summer' tires as OEM as well as the current 'all seasons'.

Note: Neither of the new summer tires are available yet in the sizes on Tesla's chart with the Evo 3 not even released yet.


----------



## Mad Hungarian

Sorry for delay, been at the Montreal EV show all weekend...


Rhaekar said:


> I'm looking at your FC04 19" wheels in bronze and only see them with a +45 offset. The stock 19's are a +40 and the TST turbines which seem to be popular are a +35. The titanium and black come in a +35 offset.
> 
> I've only seen your wheels for sale at https://www.1010tires.com/Wheels/Fast+Wheels/FC04/Painted/Bronze, are they an authorized dealer?


Yes, at the moment we only offer the Bronze in that size in +45 offset, although the +35 should be coming layer this year. I'll have to check when I get back in the office on Monday.

1010 is definitely one of our better known authorized retailers, if you followed @youyouxue and his Model 3 Road Trip you might recall that's who did the west coast wheel replacement & tire switch for us before he returned to the U.S.


----------



## zosoisnotaword

@Mad Hungarian I was looking through the instructions that come with the F237s, and it mentions that all non-chrome wheels have a clear protective coating applied to make cleaning easier. I'm taking my car to have a ceramic coating applied, so I'm going to tell them I don't need the wheels included in the package. Do you agree? Is your protective coating a ceramic coating?


----------



## Mad Hungarian

zosoisnotaword said:


> @Mad Hungarian I was looking through the instructions that come with the F237s, and it mentions that all non-chrome wheels have a clear protective coating applied to make cleaning easier. I'm taking my car to have a ceramic coating applied, so I'm going to tell them I don't need the wheels included in the package. Do you agree? Is your protective coating a ceramic coating?


Actually the clear protective coating on our wheels is very similar to that of the car's own clear coat, so no issue whatsoever if you wanted to put the ceramic on top of it, it would make them even easier to clean.
However be sure that the coating you're going with is temperature rated for use on wheels, they can get pretty hot under repeated braking. Some suppliers have wheel-specific coatings for that reason.


----------



## PNWmisty

Sandy said:


> FYI, Tesla has lowered the required PSI on the 18" from 45 to 42 psi. Not sure why. Possibly ride related not that 3 psi is going to make much of a difference.


I've found 3 psi to make quite a big difference, at least on passenger car tires aired to around 40 lbs. Maybe not as obvious on a 50-60 psi truck tire.


----------



## MountainPass

Perhaps this is cold pressure - knowing that they will come up to 45 psi or so on a sunny warm day.

Just ordered 19x9 +25 and 19x10 +35 Advan RGIII's for track use.. sure hope the fronts fit 

Going with Bridgestone RE71-R as that seems to be the best 200 treadwear tire for time attack 

What do you think @Mad Hungarian ? I remember seeing your posts about wheel fitment, and based on what you said our front wheel will be sticking out slightly, but I'm banking on the camber gain from lowering the car to help us out here.

Will likely do a 245 in the front and 275 in the rear, but may get greedy and try for 255/285.


----------



## Naet

Mad Hungarian said:


> Pressures are different, 18" is 3.1 bar (45 PSI) and 19" is 2.9 bar (42 PSI)


Has Tesla updated there system to show 20" yet?


----------



## Mad Hungarian

Sasha Anis said:


> Perhaps this is cold pressure - knowing that they will come up to 45 psi or so on a sunny warm day.
> 
> Just ordered 19x9 +25 and 19x10 +35 Advan RGIII's for track use.. sure hope the fronts fit
> 
> Going with Bridgestone RE71-R as that seems to be the best 200 treadwear tire for time attack
> 
> What do you think @Mad Hungarian ? I remember seeing your posts about wheel fitment, and based on what you said our front wheel will be sticking out slightly, but I'm banking on the camber gain from lowering the car to help us out here.
> 
> Will likely do a 245 in the front and 275 in the rear, but may get greedy and try for 255/285.


Hey Sasha, SO sorry I missed you tagging me on this post, not sure what happened there...
But I DID see your car in Trev's video from the meet, looks fantastic! And the front didn't look as agressive as I would have predicted from those specs. Did you wind up keeping the +25 front offset? How much negative camber are you running?


----------



## Mad Hungarian

Naet said:


> Has Tesla updated there system to show 20" yet?


Pressure for optional 20" package is already published in the manual (42 PSI, same as 18"/19"), see post #45 of this thread...


----------



## MountainPass

Mad Hungarian said:


> Hey Sasha, SO sorry I missed you tagging me on this post, not sure what happened there...
> But I DID see your car in Trev's video from the meet, looks fantastic! And the front didn't look as aggressive as I would have predicted from those specs. Did you wind up keeping the +25 front offset? How much negative camber are you running?


No problem man! Yeah, 9 +25 in the front. Just the negative camber that is gained from lowering, It is around -1.0 in the front now. We need more for the track, but it's ideal for the road.

It's too bad they don't make this wheel in a 9.5" with a nice concave wheel fitment. The 9" with a 245 and the 10" with a 275 results in a lot of understeer that is hard to tune out. I think a square setup is ideal for performance driving.


----------



## Mad Hungarian

Sasha Anis said:


> No problem man! Yeah, 9 +25 in the front. Just the negative camber that is gained from lowering, It is around -1.0 in the front now. We need more for the track, but it's ideal for the road.
> 
> It's too bad they don't make this wheel in a 9.5" with a nice concave wheel fitment. The 9" with a 245 and the 10" with a 275 results in a lot of understeer that is hard to tune out. I think a square setup is ideal for performance driving.


Interestingly we DO make our new FC06 Competition wheel in that size and it weighs just a scant 18.4 lbs!








https://www.fastwheels.ca/productinfo.aspx?wn=fc06&fn=gloss+gunmetal+with+machined+lip

There are two offsets, +20 and +35. The +20 would obviously be too aggressive (I think, anyway) for the front of the 3, and unfortunately the +35 won't _quite_ clear the caliper. But a 3mm spacer will make it work.
Note for those who want to run a stagger, the 18x8.5 +35 front / 18x9.5 +35 rear combo fits like a glove with no spacers required.

And while I'm here, HUGE congrats on the Time Attack win!!!
https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-model-3-professional-driver-time-attack-race/
Didn't see a thread on that one, but I'm sure I'm not the only one who'd love to see a write-up on it from you...


----------



## Love

Mad Hungarian said:


> Interestingly we DO make our new FC06 Competition wheel in that size and it weighs just a scant 18.4 lbs!
> View attachment 10712
> 
> https://www.fastwheels.ca/productinfo.aspx?wn=fc06&fn=gloss+gunmetal+with+machined+lip
> 
> There are two offsets, +20 and +35. The +20 would obviously be too aggressive (I think, anyway) for the front of the 3, and unfortunately the +35 won't _quite_ clear the caliper. But a 3mm spacer will make it work.
> Note for those who want to run a stagger, the 18x8.5 +35 front / 18x9.5 +35 rear combo fits like a glove with no spacers required.
> 
> And while I'm here, HUGE congrats on the Time Attack win!!!
> https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-model-3-professional-driver-time-attack-race/
> Didn't see a thread on that one, but I'm sure I'm not the only one who'd love to see a write-up on it from you...


Great read on teslarati, thanks for sharing! Congrats @Sasha Anis!


----------



## JustTheTip

Hey everyone. Looks like I’ll finally be an owner soon. Was able to configure a P3D with 20s yesterday after the flood gates opened up. 

Here’s my situation. 

I currently own a 2010 Infiniti G37xS sedan with 19x8.5. +30 Avant Garde M580s wrapped in 245/40/19. The bolt patterns are the same between the G and the 3. I may just need different lug nuts. No big deal. Any clue how these would fit with that offset? 

I’ve also considered keeping the 20s, and when the need for new tires arises, going with something other than the stock 235/35/20 as prices for that size are pretty ridiculous. 245/35/20 is quite a bit cheaper and there seems to be more of a selection. Would the 245/35/20 size work ok? 

Chicago roads pretty much suck so I’m still up in the air re: keeping the 20s or not. 

I will be getting the 18” Aero winter package for sure if/when it’s confirmed they’ll fit over the sport brakes. 

Thanks peeps!


----------



## Mad Hungarian

JustTheTip said:


> Hey everyone. Looks like I'll finally be an owner soon. Was able to configure a P3D with 20s yesterday after the flood gates opened up.
> 
> Here's my situation.
> 
> I currently own a 2010 Infiniti G37xS sedan with 19x8.5. +30 Avant Garde M580s wrapped in 245/40/19. The bolt patterns are the same between the G and the 3. I may just need different lug nuts. No big deal. Any clue how these would fit with that offset?
> 
> I've also considered keeping the 20s, and when the need for new tires arises, going with something other than the stock 235/35/20 as prices for that size are pretty ridiculous. 245/35/20 is quite a bit cheaper and there seems to be more of a selection. Would the 245/35/20 size work ok?
> 
> Chicago roads pretty much suck so I'm still up in the air re: keeping the 20s or not.
> 
> I will be getting the 18" Aero winter package for sure if/when it's confirmed they'll fit over the sport brakes.
> 
> Thanks peeps!


Your 19x8.5 at +30 should fit beautifully on the car as long as caliper clearance isn't an issue but the M580 should be fine, especially as it fits your G37 sport brakes and those are a tougher fit than what I am predicting we will see on the P3, assuming the 355 mm brake rotor size published as seen in the manual is correct.
Are your M580's custom-fit hub-centric, or do they use centering rings?
If they have rings you just need to get new ones to fit the 64.1 Tesla hubs. But if they're made hub-centric to fit directly on the G37's 66.1 hub then you will have a bit of an issue as I don't know of anyone that makes 66.1-to-64.1 rings, You will probably have to have those made, or alternatively you could have your wheels bored-out to 67.1, as 67.1-to-64.1 rings are readily available.

Re the tires, based on the evidence so far it's looking very likely that the 20" Performance wheels/tires will be staggered. I see no issues running a 245/35R20 front, but if the rears are 275/30R20 as expected I'd recommend you up those to 285/30R20 to keep front/rear tire diameters in synch.


----------



## JustTheTip

Excellent. Thank you! Duh. I had forgotten about the hub. No rings on the wheels for now, and getting them re-bored will probably be too much of a hassle, so I may just sell them. Too bad. They are great wheels! It'll help offset some of the $5k upcharge. At least make it hurt a little less. I am eyeing the Enkei PF07 in 19. I think those would look amazing on this car. Assuming I can find a buyer for the 20s, which shouldn't be too difficult. Thank you for the info. Much appreciated! 

Is it August-October yet?


----------



## TOFLYIN

Interesting talk on this thread. Very educational and I appreciate having an expert to give advise. Just a quick question about the cold inflation pressure. My Model 3 has 42 lbs listed on the door. I understand that, but the stock tires (18" Michelins) have "do not inflate over 40 lbs" on the sidewall. I have been driving EV's for 7 years. First was a 2012 Volt. Had to keep after the chevy mechanics when they did any work on the wheels to set the tire pressure at 38 lbs as the Volt was listed at 32. I found 38 gave better range, and not to harsh of a ride. Summers lasted me over 120,000 km. I have set my M3 to 40 lbs for now to smooth out the ride. So a couple of questions:

What is with the difference between the listed 42 and the max 40 on the tire?

Is the high tire pressure being used by S and X drivers the reason most of their tires last less than 30,000 km? I have been in may tire shops that show my centre thread bear tesla tires. Are we getting better range at the cost of tires? In ontario electricity is cheaper than rubber.

Is under inflating an issue? 

Has anybody found reasonable cost TPMS sensors? Tesla Canada wants $340 for a set of 4!


----------



## garsh

TOFLYIN said:


> I have been in may tire shops that show my centre thread bear tesla tires.


Interesting. I think that's usually a sign of over-inflation.


----------



## Mad Hungarian

TOFLYIN said:


> Interesting talk on this thread. Very educational and I appreciate having an expert to give advise. Just a quick question about the cold inflation pressure. My Model 3 has 42 lbs listed on the door. I understand that, but the stock tires (18" Michelins) have "do not inflate over 40 lbs" on the sidewall. I have been driving EV's for 7 years. First was a 2012 Volt. Had to keep after the chevy mechanics when they did any work on the wheels to set the tire pressure at 38 lbs as the Volt was listed at 32. I found 38 gave better range, and not to harsh of a ride. Summers lasted me over 120,000 km. I have set my M3 to 40 lbs for now to smooth out the ride. So a couple of questions:
> 
> What is with the difference between the listed 42 and the max 40 on the tire?
> 
> Is the high tire pressure being used by S and X drivers the reason most of their tires last less than 30,000 km? I have been in may tire shops that show my centre thread bear tesla tires. Are we getting better range at the cost of tires? In ontario electricity is cheaper than rubber.
> 
> Is under inflating an issue?
> 
> Has anybody found reasonable cost TPMS sensors? Tesla Canada wants $340 for a set of 4!


In (sort of) order:

Volt pressures: Odd that the mechanics were setting pressures to 32 PSI, my data shows the 2011's were listed at 35 PSI and as of 2012 they went up to 38 PSI (which indeed is what's shown on the placard of my 2013).

"Do not inflate over 40 lbs": Is a warning that applies only during the beading step of the tire mounting procedure, if you look closely you should see additional notes there that indicate this. This tire's actual maximum cold operating pressure is 50 PSI. Correct cold inflation for the both the 18" and 19" sizes on the 3 is 42 PSI (note this has been revised down for the 18", was listed at 45 PSI for very early build cars).

Under inflating: Can cause multiple issues, but this depends on a LOT of variables. We must first understand that every tire has a Maximum Load Capacity that will be determined by its Load Index number (the two or three digit number usually listed right before the speed rating). In North America we get the benefit of the maximum load weight actually being written directly in lbs and kg on the sidewall as well, usually in very fine print near the maximum inflation information, like so:









In the case of your OE Michelins this marking is a bit deceiving, because although the marking shows that the tire can carry a maximum load of 1653 lbs at a maximum pressure of 50 PSI, because the tire belongs to the "XL" or Extra Load category it actually reaches its maximum load carrying capability at 42 PSI. You can keep adding air to change the handling / wear / range properties, as we saw Tesla initially do for this car, right up to 50 PSI but it won't carry any more weight than if you set it to 42.
Now that we understand that, once we start _dropping_ the pressure under 42 PSI we also have to understand that we will start dropping the tire's load capacity. In this case if we were to drop the pressure to say 38 PSI, the load/inflation table for a 98 XL tire says it would only be able to safely support 1522 lbs.
Is that a problem?
That depends. The most critical reference point is the car's Gross Axle Weight Ratings, or GAWR for short. This can usually be found on the manufacturer's federal compliance placard on the door jamb. Here's one for the 3LR with 19":









As we can see the heaviest axle rating is the rear one at 2771 lbs. Which means that each tire and wheel must be capable at bare minimum of supporting 1385.5 lbs. So if we were to drop the inflation to 38 PSI, we would still have a nice comfy excess capacity of 136.5 lbs.
Now the question becomes how low can you go before it IS a problem? According to the load/inflation tables that will happen if we go below 34 PSI, where the load capacity is down to 1389 lbs. Take any more out and you're now a test pilot, circa 1953.
Many people ask why is it that car manufacturers often set pressures so much higher than is required for the GAWR of the vehicle, as we see here? The most common are handling, wear, high-speed endurance/safety margin, fuel economy/range, but probably the most important of all is what I call owner-neglect insurance. Even those of us who work in the biz don't check pressures as often as we should, and prior to TPMS being around to save our bacon that could result in some really bad things happening on a regular basis if you didn't plug in a good 10% to 30% margin into the recommended pressures so that when they inevitably got neglected and lost that much pressure they'd still be able to carry the max axle load safely.

Center of the tire tread wearing out prematurely: That is often a side-effect of having the pressure set really high over the ideal for the weight of the vehicle. With the vast majority of cars and light trucks out there having a recommended pressure that's around 1.1 to 1.3 times the minimum load capacity required if this were a really sensitive issue we'd see tons of center-worn tires, which doesn't seem to be the case. Not in my 30 years of seeing such things anyway, I more often see the opposite problem of the edges being worn from under-inflation neglect. Now if you go high enough on a tire with a lot of excess capacity on light enough car you will definitely see it happen. But in the case of Model 3, the 42 PSI recommendation gives a a calculated load capacity that is only 1.2 times the minimum the car requires for the rear axle, so it actually falls right in line with most other cars and that really shouldn't cause any serious wear concerns.

TPMS sensors: Try looking around for the Schrader EZ-sensor, a reasonably priced OE quality universal unit that can be programmed to work on a wide variety of cars including all 2014+ Teslas. Part number with rubber stem is 33500, with alumimum stem is 33700. Only caveat is that you will need the shop that sells them to you to initially "configure" them for Tesla with a TPMS service tool. Once that's done you can program them yourself to the car exactly as you would the OE units (see the first page of this thread).


----------



## JeffC

Mad Hungarian said:


> Interestingly we DO make our new FC06 Competition wheel in that size and it weighs just a scant 18.4 lbs!
> View attachment 10712
> 
> https://www.fastwheels.ca/productinfo.aspx?wn=fc06&fn=gloss+gunmetal+with+machined+lip
> 
> There are two offsets, +20 and +35. The +20 would obviously be too aggressive (I think, anyway) for the front of the 3, and unfortunately the +35 won't _quite_ clear the caliper. But a 3mm spacer will make it work.
> Note for those who want to run a stagger, the 18x8.5 +35 front / 18x9.5 +35 rear combo fits like a glove with no spacers required.


Looks like a great option for track use. Light, very strong looking design with drive forces near the centerline of the barrel, generous radii on the arms, etc.

Slightly confused: "the +35 won't quite clear the caliper". Unless you're referring to the rear caliper, that seems to disagree with "the 18x8.5 +35 front / 18x9.5 +35 rear combo fits like a glove". Can you clarify?

Also any thoughts on fitment with the possible factory 355 mm Performance Upgrade rotor? Or were you referring to the 320 rotor?

P.S. It's super helpful to have your expertise here. Thanks!


----------



## Mad Hungarian

JeffC said:


> Looks like a great option for track use. Light, very strong looking design with drive forces near the centerline of the barrel, generous radii on the arms, etc.
> 
> Slightly confused: "the +35 won't quite clear the caliper". Unless you're referring to the rear caliper, that seems to disagree with "the 18x8.5 +35 front / 18x9.5 +35 rear combo fits like a glove". Can you clarify?
> 
> Also any thoughts on fitment with the possible factory 355 mm Performance Upgrade rotor? Or were you referring to the 320 rotor?
> 
> P.S. It's super helpful to have your expertise here. Thanks!


Sorry, should have explained more clearly, it's the 18x9.5 +35 that needs a small spacer in front position for those who want to run that size in all around.


----------



## JeffC

Mad Hungarian said:


> Sorry, should have explained more clearly, it's the 18x9.5 +35 that needs a small spacer in front position for those who want to run that size in all around.


Thanks, that makes perfect sense given the front has larger brakes. Sounds like staggered would fit fine, of course with the usual downside of not being able to rotate tires between front and back.


----------



## JeffC

Hi Lapchik,  Any thoughts on this combo for Performance Model 3? I have a question in to Tire Rack for the barrel inner diameter of the wheels so I can compare to the factory Aeros. (Obviously we still have the risk that the larger front brakes don't fit the Aeros.) In particular would 235/265 be close enough to 235/275 the factory may use on it's staggered 20s? (Probably too many unknowns to buy now, but starting to plan. These would be for street/track. As I get more track time, may change to Hoosiers.)

 Michelin
Pilot Sport 4S  Max Performance Summer

Front: 235/45ZR18
Eco Focus: Michelin Total Performance
Load Range: XL
Serv. Desc: (98Y)
UTQG: 300 AA A

Qty:
Per Tire:
2
$210.97
Availability: In Stock
Can be delivered Thu, 07/12 to 94024
Free Shipping

Rear: 265/40ZR18
Eco Focus: Michelin Total Performance
Load Range: XL
Serv. Desc: (101Y)
UTQG: 300 AA A
Special Offer: Buy a set of four and get $70 via Mastercard Reward Card by mail.
Ends July 12 (4 Days Left!)

Qty:
Per Tire:
2
$255.97
Availability: In Stock
Can be delivered Thu, 07/12 to 94024
Free Shipping
Free Road Hazard Protection
(*$72.56* value. Two-year coverage.)
  
 
(15)
|  Reviews (15) 
 Enkei Racing
PF01 

FRONT:
Size: 18x8.5 (-1 Diameter)
Finish: Bright Silver Paint
Weight: 18.7 lbs.
Offset: 35mm

Qty:
Per Wheel:
2
$320.00
Availability: Fewer than 3, Available at Supplier
Can be delivered to 94024 when available for $19.60 per wheel.

REAR:
Size: 18x9 (-1 Diameter)
Finish: Bright Silver Paint
Weight: 19.7 lbs.
Offset: 35mm

Qty:
Per Wheel:
2
$342.00 $249.00 27% Off Special/Closeout
Availability: Fewer than 3
Can be delivered to 94024 when available for $19.96 per wheel.

433MHz Tire Pressure Sensor

Qty:
Each:
4
$65.00
Availability: In Stock
Reference: https://tsportline.com/blogs/owners-guide/the-tesla-model-3-wheel-guide

*20" Model 3 Sport Wheel*








_Size:_ 20X8.5" Front, 20X10.0" Rear​
_Offset:_ +35 Front, +45 Rear​
_PCD:_ 5X114.3​
_Center Bore:_ 64.1mm​
_Weight:_ ~30-35 lbs (Speculated)​
_Lug Nut Spec:_ 13/16 Hex, 14X1.50 Thread​
_Lug Nut Torque Spec: _129 lb-ft​
_Price:_ *N/A*​
_Tire Spec:_ Michelin Pilot Sport 4S, 235/35-20 92Y Front, 275/30-20 97Y Rear​
_Details: _This is the alpha sport wheel seen on Tesla Model 3 prototypes. A Non-staggered Wheel & Tire Package is available on the Tesla online store as of March 20, 2018.​


----------



## 3V Pilot

Not sure if it's been covered in this thread but I just rotated my tires and attempted to reset the TPMS using the instructions from post #3 on the first page. Needless to say Model 3 doesn't have a service menu where you can tell it to "reset". So I put an extra 4 lbs of pressure in the right front to see if they would read correctly and they did! No need to worry about resetting the system, the car is smart enough to know! I'm not sure how you'd tell it if you got new sensors though?


----------



## JeffC

3V Pilot said:


> I'm not sure how you'd tell it if you got new sensors though?


Maybe the car sends a reset signal to (all) the sensors and automatically registers new ones? That's my guess.


----------



## Thunder7ga

3V Pilot said:


> Not sure if it's been covered in this thread but I just rotated my tires and attempted to reset the TPMS using the instructions from post #3 on the first page. Needless to say Model 3 doesn't have a service menu where you can tell it to "reset". So I put an extra 4 lbs of pressure in the right front to see if they would read correctly and they did! No need to worry about resetting the system, the car is smart enough to know! I'm not sure how you'd tell it if you got new sensors though?
> View attachment 11304


Great info...I was JUST looking for this verification today.


----------



## Mad Hungarian

3V Pilot said:


> Not sure if it's been covered in this thread but I just rotated my tires and attempted to reset the TPMS using the instructions from post #3 on the first page. Needless to say Model 3 doesn't have a service menu where you can tell it to "reset". So I put an extra 4 lbs of pressure in the right front to see if they would read correctly and they did! No need to worry about resetting the system, the car is smart enough to know! I'm not sure how you'd tell it if you got new sensors though?
> View attachment 11304


When we put new sensors in You You's car it took around 5 minutes of driving before a message popped up on the screen asking us to confirm what size wheels had been installed. I assume that was the car's way of telling us "Hey, I found these new sensors, wanna let me know what new shoes they're attached to?".


----------



## Mad Hungarian

JeffC said:


> Hi Lapchik,  Any thoughts on this combo for Performance Model 3? I have a question in to Tire Rack for the barrel inner diameter of the wheels so I can compare to the factory Aeros. (Obviously we still have the risk that the larger front brakes don't fit the Aeros.) In particular would 235/265 be close enough to 235/275 the factory may use on it's staggered 20s? (Probably too many unknowns to buy now, but starting to plan. These would be for street/track. As I get more track time, may change to Hoosiers.)
> 
> Michelin
> Pilot Sport 4S  Max Performance Summer
> 
> Front: 235/45ZR18
> Eco Focus: Michelin Total Performance
> Load Range: XL
> Serv. Desc: (98Y)
> UTQG: 300 AA A
> 
> Qty:
> Per Tire:
> 2
> $210.97
> Availability: In Stock
> Can be delivered Thu, 07/12 to 94024
> Free Shipping
> 
> Rear: 265/40ZR18
> Eco Focus: Michelin Total Performance
> Load Range: XL
> Serv. Desc: (101Y)
> UTQG: 300 AA A
> Special Offer: Buy a set of four and get $70 via Mastercard Reward Card by mail.
> Ends July 12 (4 Days Left!)
> 
> Qty:
> Per Tire:
> 2
> $255.97
> Availability: In Stock
> Can be delivered Thu, 07/12 to 94024
> Free Shipping
> Free Road Hazard Protection
> (*$72.56* value. Two-year coverage.)
> 
> 
> (15)
> |  Reviews (15)
> Enkei Racing
> PF01
> 
> FRONT:
> Size: 18x8.5 (-1 Diameter)
> Finish: Bright Silver Paint
> Weight: 18.7 lbs.
> Offset: 35mm
> 
> Qty:
> Per Wheel:
> 2
> $320.00
> Availability: Fewer than 3, Available at Supplier
> Can be delivered to 94024 when available for $19.60 per wheel.
> 
> REAR:
> Size: 18x9 (-1 Diameter)
> Finish: Bright Silver Paint
> Weight: 19.7 lbs.
> Offset: 35mm
> 
> Qty:
> Per Wheel:
> 2
> $342.00 $249.00 27% Off Special/Closeout
> Availability: Fewer than 3
> Can be delivered to 94024 when available for $19.96 per wheel.
> 
> 433MHz Tire Pressure Sensor
> 
> Qty:
> Each:
> 4
> $65.00
> Availability: In Stock
> Reference: https://tsportline.com/blogs/owners-guide/the-tesla-model-3-wheel-guide
> 
> *20" Model 3 Sport Wheel*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _Size:_ 20X8.5" Front, 20X10.0" Rear​
> _Offset:_ +35 Front, +45 Rear​
> _PCD:_ 5X114.3​
> _Center Bore:_ 64.1mm​
> _Weight:_ ~30-35 lbs (Speculated)​
> _Lug Nut Spec:_ 13/16 Hex, 14X1.50 Thread​
> _Lug Nut Torque Spec: _129 lb-ft​
> _Price:_ *N/A*​
> _Tire Spec:_ Michelin Pilot Sport 4S, 235/35-20 92Y Front, 275/30-20 97Y Rear​
> _Details: _This is the alpha sport wheel seen on Tesla Model 3 prototypes. A Non-staggered Wheel & Tire Package is available on the Tesla online store as of March 20, 2018.​


The effects of varying the front/rear tire O.D. relationship is something we watch very closely on all late model vehicles for a few reasons, one being not wanting to falsely trigger ABS/TC/ESC functions and another not wanting to damage the mechanical center differentials on AWD ICE vehicles.

One of the beautiful things of course about Tesla's AWD system is that the front and rear drivetrains are completely separate entities, even right down to having different final drive ratios (I gotta say that still freaks me out on paper when I see it, but hey, why not optimize each for a specific job when you can?). So we don't really need to worry about breaking anything mechanical, and as long as we stay within a range that doesn't trigger any of the nannies it all should work well.

Our experience even on the pickiest of ICE vehicles is that a +/- 1.0% difference in O.D. is generally not a problem. This is largely because if we were to measure the O.D. of the average new tire and remeasure it when the tread is reaching the end of its usable life it actually drops by around 2%. So if you had relatively new tires on one axle and fairly worn ones on the other the car's ECU and mechanical parts have to be able to tolerate at least some small amount of variation in that range.
We've done tons of staggers on both Model S and Model X and gone up or down one size either front or rear as you wish to do, and so far we've had zero issues. So I don't think there's going to be a problem doing that on Model 3. Going beyond a 1.5% front/rear O.D. delta however remains an unknown.

What would be really nice is if Tesla ever decided to allow us to enter our own custom tire sizing, at least within a pre-approved range, so that speedo/odo/ABS/TC/ESC functions would be correctly calibrated and we wouldn't have to guess if we're compromising anything. I'm not going to hold my breath on that one, but I can definitely see some enterprising hacker/tuners coming to the rescue ( @Sasha Anis I'm looking at you )


----------



## 3V Pilot

Mad Hungarian said:


> When we put new sensors in You You's car it took around 5 minutes of driving before a message popped up on the screen asking us to confirm what size wheels had been installed. I assume that was the car's way of telling us "Hey, I found these new sensors, wanna let me know what new shoes they're attached to?".


Thanks for clarifying that, I was hoping you would chime in since you are probably one of the few shops that have actually swapped rims. Good to know the car asks for the info, seems like it can't get any more simple than this setup.


----------



## JeffC

For info, asked Tire Rack to confirm the proposed setup above with the 18 inch Enkeis would fit the performance rotors, and they indicated yes. Here'e the full conversation, including measurements:



> > Question: Hi folks,
> > Can you tell me the exact barrel inner diameter of these wheels
> > where the brake caliper would be front and back? I'm trying to see
> > if they would fit the Tesla Model 3 Performance Model front and rear calipers.
> 
> > Enkei Racing PF01
> > (15)
> > | Reviews (15)
> > Enkei Racing
> > PF01
> 
> > FRONT:
> > Size: 18x8.5 (-1 Diameter)
> > Finish: Bright Silver Paint
> > Weight: 18.7 lbs.
> > Offset: 35mm
> 
> > Qty:
> > Per Wheel:
> > 2
> > $320.00
> > Availability: Fewer than 3, Available at Supplier
> > Can be delivered to 94024 when available for $19.60 per wheel.
> 
> > REAR:
> > Size: 18x9 (-1 Diameter)
> > Finish: Bright Silver Paint
> > Weight: 19.7 lbs.
> > Offset: 35mm
> 
> > Qty:
> > Per Wheel:
> > 2
> > $342.00 $249.00 27% Off Special/Closeout
> > Availability: Fewer than 3
> > Can be delivered to 94024 when available for $19.96 per wheel
> 
> > Thanks much!
> 
> 
> > Thanks for your inquiry.
> >
> > 4608856635BS 88 18X8.5 5-114 ET35 ENKEI PF01
> >
> > 4608906635BS 87 18X9 5-114 ET35 ENKEI PF01#
> >
> > 18 TESL MODEL 3
> >
> > Barrel diameter is 433mm at the start of the drop center, measured ID.
> >
> >
> >
> > Both wheels will fit over brakes.
> 
> Description : Thanks so much Sam,
> When you say will fit over brakes, do we think that includes the
> larger Performance Model rotors, possibly 355mm in diameter.
> This is currently a subject of great debate in the Tesla fanbase.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Jeff C.
> 
> Thanks for your inquiry.
> Yes sir , confirmed with my hardware support folks this morning



As I've said before, Tire Rack works very closely with manufacturers. I'd consider their finding to have some authority.

Also I mistakenly selected 18x9 above. Changed to 18x9.5 +45.


----------



## Mad Hungarian

JeffC said:


> For info, asked Tire Rack to confirm the proposed setup above with the 18 inch Enkeis would fit the performance rotors, and they indicated yes. Here'e the full conversation, including measurements:
> 
> 
> As I've said before, Tire Rack works very closely with manufacturers. I'd consider their finding to have some authority.
> 
> Also I mistakenly selected 18x9 above. Changed to 18x9.5 +45.


Highly unlikely that anyone outside of Tesla or their immediate vendors has yet laid hands on a P3D. I suspect they're doing the same thing we are, extrapolating the dimensions based on the 3LR caliper repositioned to accomodate a 355mm rotor.
But again, this isn't surprising as I can confirm from measuring many, many different vehicles with that size of rotor that it would be unusual if the average 18" wheel_ didn'_t fit.


----------



## MountainPass

Thanks for the faith @Mad Hungarian. In theory, Tesla can already do this by using GPS to calibrate different wheels and tire sizes. Who knows if they already are.

We're planning to do some digging to see, but for now we feel the model 3 is best with a square wheel/tire setup, so it may be a moot point!


----------



## Mad Hungarian

Sasha Anis said:


> Thanks for the faith @Mad Hungarian. In theory, Tesla can already do this by using GPS to calibrate different wheels and tire sizes. Who knows if they already are.
> 
> We're planning to do some digging to see, but for now we feel the model 3 is best with a square wheel/tire setup, so it may be a moot point!


I hear you, just lots of folks out there who really want to run staggers on it so it would be interesting to see if there is a front/rear rpm delta point at which the ECU starts getting annoyed and if we can then figure out how to deal with it. Look forward to your digging


----------



## MountainPass

I'll drive around with a silly difference and let you know if it's a problem. We want to do some research on how it affects traction / ABS. Right now we're running a slightly taller rear tire which, if the car doesn't normalize, will make traction control *MORE* intrusive which is bad!


----------



## Lunares

JeffC said:


> For info, asked Tire Rack to confirm the proposed setup above with the 18 inch Enkeis would fit the performance rotors, and they indicated yes. Here'e the full conversation, including measurements:
> 
> 
> As I've said before, Tire Rack works very closely with manufacturers. I'd consider their finding to have some authority.
> 
> Also I mistakenly selected 18x9 above. Changed to 18x9.5 +45.


Wouldn't surprise me if 18" tires fit just not the specific 18" aero tesla tires


----------



## JeffC

Mad Hungarian said:


> Highly unlikely that anyone outside of Tesla or their immediate vendors has yet laid hands on a P3D. I suspect they're doing the same thing we are, extrapolating the dimensions based on the 3LR caliper repositioned to accomodate a 355mm rotor.
> But again, this isn't surprising as I can confirm from measuring many, many different vehicles with that size of rotor that it would be unusual if the average 18" wheel_ didn'_t fit.


Agree, but Tire Rack also very good connections with manufacturers. It's possible Tesla has shared measurements with them.


----------



## JeffC

General technical question for @Mad Hungarian and @Sasha Anis: If one replaces heavy stock wheels such as the 20 inch Model 3 wheels (which may weigh more than 30 lbs each) with much lighter wheels such as the Enkei PF01 or Fast Wheel Canada FC04 or FC06 (which may weigh less than 20 lbs), and kept the stock (Performance Model 3) suspension, wouldn't the resulting spring rate be too high for the much lighter wheels/tires?

In other words shouldn't a much lighter wheel need a significantly softer spring rate to have an appropriate suspension frequency?

We know that lighter wheels/tires (and lower unsprung mass in general) makes for better handling since they literally do less work to follow the contour of the road (i.e., have better efficiency), but it seems like lighter wheels without changing the springs/dampers would mess up the system tuning. Unfortunately that would imply needing to change springs and dampers with the change to the lighter wheels.

Does that sound right? Maybe some of it can be tuned with the dampers (shock absorbers) only, if they're adjustable.

Update: the formulas at:

https://eibach.com/us/p-101-suspension-worksheet.html

suggest to me that unsprung mass is so much smaller than sprung mass as to probably not affect the suspension frequency much. Correct? (10 pounds of wheel lightening for 1000 pound corner weight would be only 1 percent difference in wheel rate.)


----------



## Mad Hungarian

JeffC said:


> General technical question for @Mad Hungarian and @Sasha Anis: If one replaces heavy stock wheels such as the 20 inch Model 3 wheels (which may weigh more than 30 lbs each) with much lighter wheels such as the Enkei PF01 or Fast Wheel Canada FC04 or FC06 (which may weigh less than 20 lbs), and kept the stock (Performance Model 3) suspension, wouldn't the resulting spring rate be too high for the much lighter wheels/tires?
> 
> In other words shouldn't a much lighter wheel need a significantly softer spring rate to have an appropriate suspension frequency?
> 
> We know that lighter wheels/tires (and lower unsprung mass in general) makes for better handling since they literally do less work to follow the contour of the road (i.e., have better efficiency), but it seems like lighter wheels without changing the springs/dampers would mess up the system tuning. Unfortunately that would imply needing to change springs and dampers with the change to the lighter wheels.
> 
> Does that sound right? Maybe some of it can be tuned with the dampers (shock absorbers) only, if they're adjustable.
> 
> Update: the formulas at:
> 
> https://eibach.com/us/p-101-suspension-worksheet.html
> 
> suggest to me that unsprung mass is so much smaller than sprung mass as to probably not affect the suspension frequency much. Correct? (10 pounds of wheel lightening for 1000 pound corner weight would be only 1 percent difference in wheel rate.)


Yep, because the wheel mass is such a tiny part of the whole equation when dealing with the upward force it won't dramatically affect spring rate or damper compression rate. However damper rebound rate, which is largely about controlling how fast the unsprung bits try to travel back out, is a slightly different story. In my experience it isn't a huge concern, but it ought to benefit from a little tweaking. I'd like to hear @Sasha Anis input on it.


----------



## JeffC

Pictures and video of Performance Model 3 at Buena Park, California delivery center shows square wheels: 235/35-20 front and back. Also rotors/calipers look perhaps slightly too large for 18 inch wheels, but would really need to measure. Also the ride height seems high, but the dampers may need to settle down. Elon tweeted 1cm lower ride height for P which is a pretty minimal lowering.

https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-model-3-performance-premium-white-interior-walkaround-video


----------



## MountainPass

I agree with what @Mad Hungarian said, although I would argue that compression is the main adjustment to be made for unsprung weight changes.

Either way, it's a moot point as a lightweight wheel is almost always paired with a larger, heavier tire. Our Advan wheels are much lighter than the factory wheels, but the large RE71-R tires made the total weight the exact same as the 18" aeros!


----------



## DLove23

Hello, I think this is my first post here so greetings! 

I have a red Model 3 with the stock aero rims and I was looking towards something with a little better look (even with the covers off) and style while gaining added performance from a tire that has much less slippage than my current stock Michelin all-seasons. With those tires if I punch it I can feel the rear tires slip a tad, no doubt hurting acceleration performance.

I'm probably going to get Metallic grey 19 inch turbines from EV Wheels and had pretty much decided on the Michelin Pilot 4S tires. My question is the setup. I like the look of a low profile tire wall, and have realized that the number indicating the height of the tire is actually indicating the PERCENTAGE of the width, which seems stupid to me but it is what it is. LOL.

My conundrum is this, would the grip on the Pilot 4S's be so good that I could get away with going with a 245 width tire all the way around? Or could I even keep it stock with 235's? But I worry there because even if it would keep the car from slipping now, if there was ever a performance upgrade from Tesla for the long range RWD model perhaps it would slip then. I do think such an update is definitely a possibility in the future because they did it for the S, and if you notice the acceleration modes there are only two choices, chill and standard, leaving it open for a 3rd option that, while not "Insane" or "Ludicrous", could be "Fast" or "Sport". So, If I stagger my setup, could I go with 235's on the front and 255's on the back? And what would be the appropriate sidewall height for each? Should I go 235/40 and 255/35? Would 235/35 and 255/30 help acceleration? I've tried to configure these sizes on TireRack and get told each time that tire configuration is not available for my car. Is it the tire itself that they wouldn't recommend in that configuration for the Model 3 or what?

Any help I could get here would be greatly appreciated as I've now got a headache from all the research I've been doing.

(looking at you @Mad Hungarian lol)


----------



## JeffC

DLove23 said:


> Hello, I think this is my first post here so greetings!
> 
> I have a red Model 3 with the stock aero rims and I was looking towards something with a little better look (even with the covers off) and style while gaining added performance from a tire that has much less slippage than my current stock Michelin all-seasons. With those tires if I punch it I can feel the rear tires slip a tad, no doubt hurting acceleration performance.
> 
> I'm probably going to get Metallic grey 19 inch turbines from EV Wheels and had pretty much decided on the Michelin Pilot 4S tires. My question is the setup. I like the look of a low profile tire wall, and have realized that the number indicating the height of the tire is actually indicating the PERCENTAGE of the width, which seems stupid to me but it is what it is. LOL.
> 
> My conundrum is this, would the grip on the Pilot 4S's be so good that I could get away with going with a 245 width tire all the way around? Or could I even keep it stock with 235's? But I worry there because even if it would keep the car from slipping now, if there was ever a performance upgrade from Tesla for the long range RWD model perhaps it would slip then. I do think such an update is definitely a possibility in the future because they did it for the S, and if you notice the acceleration modes there are only two choices, chill and standard, leaving it open for a 3rd option that, while not "Insane" or "Ludicrous", could be "Fast" or "Sport". So, If I stagger my setup, could I go with 235's on the front and 255's on the back? And what would be the appropriate sidewall height for each? Should I go 235/40 and 255/35? Would 235/35 and 255/30 help acceleration? I've tried to configure these sizes on TireRack and get told each time that tire configuration is not available for my car. Is it the tire itself that they wouldn't recommend in that configuration for the Model 3 or what?
> 
> Any help I could get here would be greatly appreciated as I've now got a headache from all the research I've been doing.
> 
> (looking at you @Mad Hungarian lol)


Welcome and congrats on driving an outstanding and efficient car!

First thing to keep in mind is that all engineering decisions are tradeoffs between multiple. competing goals. The energy efficient tires on the Aero wheels are designed to waste less energy, probably at the tradeoff of some "performance" such as acceleration in all directions. Performance biased tires like the excellent Michelin Pilot Sport 4S probably trade off some energy efficiency for slightly higher acceleration. The differences may be in the 5 percent range in both cases.

In addition to higher absolute limits, performance tires usually are designed to offer better subjective feel particularly in transitions into and out of turns, hard braking, etc.

Mad Hungarian expressed that 255/40-18 tires would fit on the Aero wheels, probably at the cost of around 5% efficiency/range. That would probably offer the maximum performance on those wheels.

Even if you don't like the Aeros, I'd still recommend 18 inch wheels as being generally lighter than larger wheels. If you want to go with standard sized wheels and tires, the Enkei PF01 or RPF1 18 x 8.5 30 mm offset with Michelin Pilot Sport 4S 235/45-18 would be excellent. It would probably outperform the same tires on the 20 inch Performance Upgrade Option wheels/tires due to lower weight.

(Standard wheel offset is 40mm for 18s or 19s (35mm for factory 20s), so these 30 mm offset stick out 10 mm more per side. You can also get aftermarket wheels in the standard 40mm (or 35mm for 20s) offset in 18s or 19s. The 30 mm offset may give a tiny bit more performance due to the slightly wider track (how far out the tires are laterally).)

(The standard sized wheels and tires are good compromises between performance and efficiency. Tesla surely studied this extensively, as they tend to do. They were chosen for specific reasons balancing performance vs efficiency. You can't go wrong by duplicating that with aftermarket wheels and/or times.)

Tire Rack's selector assumes standard sized wheels and tires and matches upgrades from there. 255/40-18 doesn't show up, probably because it's width would be significantly more than the standard 235/45-18. You may be able to call, chat or email them to get more customized sizes.

Tesla is concentrating hard on executing large volumes of relatively standardized Model 3s. I don't expect major changes to the offerings, and I would not expect an over the air upgrade of LR or AWD to higher power. The higher power in the Performance Model 3 is created by selecting and testing physically higher performing motors and controllers (inverters). Were one to apply the same power levels to the non-select drive train, it could affect its reliability.

Long story short: yes, changing to performance tires would give better acceleration and feel, at the cost of some range. You kind of need to decide what your priorities are. There's nothing wrong with having the more efficient tires and getting more range and lower energy use. The differences would probably be in the 5% range either way.

There is a long thread about this near: https://teslaownersonline.com/threa...e-happening-per-elon.6849/page-42#post-128469

I hope this helps.


----------



## Mad Hungarian

DLove23 said:


> Hello, I think this is my first post here so greetings!
> 
> I have a red Model 3 with the stock aero rims and I was looking towards something with a little better look (even with the covers off) and style while gaining added performance from a tire that has much less slippage than my current stock Michelin all-seasons. With those tires if I punch it I can feel the rear tires slip a tad, no doubt hurting acceleration performance.
> 
> I'm probably going to get Metallic grey 19 inch turbines from EV Wheels and had pretty much decided on the Michelin Pilot 4S tires. My question is the setup. I like the look of a low profile tire wall, and have realized that the number indicating the height of the tire is actually indicating the PERCENTAGE of the width, which seems stupid to me but it is what it is. LOL.
> 
> My conundrum is this, would the grip on the Pilot 4S's be so good that I could get away with going with a 245 width tire all the way around? Or could I even keep it stock with 235's? But I worry there because even if it would keep the car from slipping now, if there was ever a performance upgrade from Tesla for the long range RWD model perhaps it would slip then. I do think such an update is definitely a possibility in the future because they did it for the S, and if you notice the acceleration modes there are only two choices, chill and standard, leaving it open for a 3rd option that, while not "Insane" or "Ludicrous", could be "Fast" or "Sport". So, If I stagger my setup, could I go with 235's on the front and 255's on the back? And what would be the appropriate sidewall height for each? Should I go 235/40 and 255/35? Would 235/35 and 255/30 help acceleration? I've tried to configure these sizes on TireRack and get told each time that tire configuration is not available for my car. Is it the tire itself that they wouldn't recommend in that configuration for the Model 3 or what?
> 
> Any help I could get here would be greatly appreciated as I've now got a headache from all the research I've been doing.
> 
> (looking at you @Mad Hungarian lol)


Well looks like Jeff beat me to it, but I essentially agree with everything he wrote so my job just got a little easier .
If you're most concerned about acceleration I'd go with an 18" stagger. Assuming you're also going to get a new set of staggered wheels (8.5" or 9.0" front and 9.5" or 10.0" rear) I'd suggest a 235/45R18 front and 265/40R18 rear as they have identical O.D.s. Pilot Sport 4S is an excellent choice and is available in that pairing.
By keeping the 235 size in front you'll avoid most of the aero drag increase (at least the tire-induced part) and that 265 out back will really hook up. Some may object that you won't get maximum cornering power as the stagger will add a little understeer (car pushing towards the outside of the corner) but as the RWD 3 has a 44%/56% front/rear weight distribution I think it's still appropriate in the handling sense and if anything it'll make it a little easier to control at the limit.
If you wanted to keep the stock Aeros, or simply stick with another set of 18x8.5 wheels all-around, then you could go 235/45R18 front and 255/40R18 rear (the max that fits on an 8.5"). That rear size is only 1.1% smaller in O.D. and as such shouldn't cause any issues.


----------



## DLove23

Thanks for the responses!! 

I appreciate the encouragement to stay with the 18's, but I do want to go bigger. I'd actually like to put 20's on there if I could but those would sacrifice more performance and efficiency than I'd like, so 19 seems to be a good compromise. I just like the look of the larger wheels ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ lol. Also a big fan of the Turbine rims as well. I do plan on keeping my aeros for my winter wheels (Midwest life lol). 

Hopefully I can get some advise based on 19 inch rims. Apologies for not being a little more clear about my preference for the larger size, thats my bad.


----------



## JeffC

DLove23 said:


> Thanks for the responses!!
> 
> I appreciate the encouragement to stay with the 18's, but I do want to go bigger. I'd actually like to put 20's on there if I could but those would sacrifice more performance and efficiency than I'd like, so 19 seems to be a good compromise. I just like the look of the larger wheels ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ lol. Also a big fan of the Turbine rims as well. I do plan on keeping my aeros for my winter wheels (Midwest life lol).
> 
> Hopefully I can get some advise based on 19 inch rims. Apologies for not being a little more clear about my preference for the larger size, thats my bad.


You can do all the same things with 19s. Just drop the aspect ratio from 45 to 40, 40 to 35, 35 to 30, respectively, and keep similar widths and offsets. (Mad Hungarian indicated 30 mm offsets should work.) I do recommend lighter wheels for better performance. Some of the more stylish wheels tend to be heavier (probably including the factory 19 and 20 wheels). Lighter is quicker accelerating and faster around a race track.


----------



## Pierre Champoux

@Mad Hungarian For CANADA, Quebec, what will be your recommandation for winter tire relative to performance, noise, price, etc. Is Nokia Akka R3 a good choice but it seem that it is only available in 235/50R18. So, a bit taller. Acceptable? Other suggestion?


----------



## Mad Hungarian

Pierre Champoux said:


> @Mad Hungarian For CANADA, Quebec, what will be your recommandation for winter tire relative to performance, noise, price, etc. Is Nokia Akka R3 a good choice but it seem that it is only available in 235/50R18. So, a bit taller. Acceptable? Other suggestion?


Fantastic tire for outright grip, but that extra height of the 50 series is going to come VERY close to touching the upper link portion of the front suspension knuckle, very little room there. I do see the Hakka R3 as being available in 235/45R18 though on Nokian's website, where are you checking?
I am very fond of Continental's WinterContact SI as they not only offer great ice and snow traction but they're incredibly quiet and handle quite nicely in the dry too. And my fave for ultimate handling while still offering very good ice and snow traction is Falken's V-rated Eurowinter HS449. That's what we put on You You's car for the northern leg of his tour and I can vouch from the time I had with the car that it was a nice match.


----------



## JeffC

Pierre Champoux said:


> @Mad Hungarian For CANADA, Quebec, what will be your recommandation for winter tire relative to performance, noise, price, etc. Is Nokia Akka R3 a good choice but it seem that it is only available in 235/50R18. So, a bit taller. Acceptable? Other suggestion?


Definitely don't go with the taller tire, as Mad Hungarian also mentions. Tesla offers snow tires on Aero wheels on their U.S. shop site, which one could duplicate on similarly sized wheels, etc., even if they don't sell in Canada:

https://shop.tesla.com/us/en/produc...3-18_-aero-wheel-and-winter-tire-package.html

*Model 3 18" Aero Wheel and Winter Tire Package*
*$2,000*

Description
Model 3 18" Aero wheel and Pirelli winter tire package provides maximum safety and grip when driving in wet or dry conditions, and on icy or snow-covered roads. The winter package guarantees a high level of traction, stability, and braking efficiency under 45 ℉, which translates to excellent comfort while driving, so you can enjoy wherever you drive with confidence.
Includes:

4 x 18X8.5J Aero wheels
4 x 235/45/18 - PIRELLI WINTER SOTTOZERO™ SERIE II
4 x tire pressure sensors
4 x Tesla logo Aero wheel caps
Lug nuts and lug nut covers sold separately
Price includes shipping and installation and ships to your selected Service Center.
Note: Customers will be contacted by the Service Center to schedule an installation appointment.


----------



## Pierre Champoux

Mad Hungarian said:


> Fantastic tire for outright grip, but that extra height of the 50 series is going to come VERY close to touching the upper link portion of the front suspension knuckle, very little room there. I do see the Hakka R3 as being available in 235/45R18 though on Nokian's website, where are you checking?
> I am very fond of Continental's WinterContact SI as they not only offer great ice and snow traction but they're incredibly quiet and handle quite nicely in the dry too. And my fave for ultimate handling while still offering very good ice and snow traction is Falken's V-rated Eurowinter HS449. That's what we put on You You's car for the northern leg of his tour and I can vouch from the time I had with the car that it was a nice match.


Thank you. What do you think of using 225/50R18? Narrower and only 13.5 mm taller.


----------



## Mad Hungarian

Pierre Champoux said:


> Thank you. What do you think of using 225/50R18? Narrower and only 13.5 mm taller.


That should work fine, but you'll need to go with a narrower set of wheels as maximum permissible rim width for that size is 8.0".


----------



## MrBCC

Hey Mad Hugarian and JeffC, what are your thoughts on spacers?

1) I'm thinking of getting a square setup of 19 x 8.5 Enkei Raijins (35mm offset), and potentially putting in spacers to complete the flush look. I've heard mixed reviews of whether spacers are ok (>10mm). Thoughts on this? 

2) I'm also hoping to find a quality 6061 or better aluminum spacer with the right setup, such as hub centric bolt-on). Any recommendations?

Appreciate the help!


----------



## JeffC

MrBCC said:


> Hey Mad Hugarian and JeffC, what are your thoughts on spacers?
> 
> 1) I'm thinking of getting a square setup of 19 x 8.5 Enkei Raijins (35mm offset), and potentially putting in spacers to complete the flush look. I've heard mixed reviews of whether spacers are ok (>10mm). Thoughts on this?
> 
> 2) I'm also hoping to find a quality 6061 or better aluminum spacer with the right setup, such as hub centric bolt-on). Any recommendations?
> 
> Appreciate the help!


19x8.5 with a 35 mm offset and 10mm wheel spacers would be equivalent to 25 mm offset, which might fit. Don't know if it would stick out enough to risk rubbing the inside of the fender. I'd personally not use spacers. (I don't like adding more parts in general, and appearance is lower on my list of priorities than functionality. Your priorities may be different.  )

Also some wheels are available in different offsets. Tirerack.com has a pretty good wheel selector that can show different available offsets.

@Mad Hungarian may have actual wheel fitment data.


----------



## DLove23

I was also thinking about those Raijins. What color combo are we talking about here?


----------



## MrBCC

DLove23 said:


> I was also thinking about those Raijins. What color combo are we talking about here?


Thinking the gunmetal grey color, but was hoping for a glossy finish (to me the matte finishes always look dirty after a day).

Hoping to see them in person somewhere, but have not had a chance to look around yet.

Have you looked at any other brands with this style?


----------



## DLove23

I've looked at the Turbines but they're all heavy besides the 18 inch flowed forge ones offered by TSportline. Those are only 21 lbs, but also 18 inches. I wonder if lowering the M3 would make a difference in filling the wheel well in that respect. What color is your M3?


----------



## MrBCC

DLove23 said:


> I've looked at the Turbines but they're all heavy besides the 18 inch flowed forge ones offered by TSportline. Those are only 21 lbs, but also 18 inches. I wonder if lowering the M3 would make a difference in filling the wheel well in that respect. What color is your M3?


Same as yours, looks like. I just lowered mine a few days ago:


----------



## DLove23

MrBCC said:


> Same as yours, looks like. I just lowered mine a few days ago:
> 
> View attachment 13164


Hmmm. Interesing. That indeed does look much better. How far did you lower it?


----------



## MrBCC

DLove23 said:


> Hmmm. Interesing. That indeed does look much better. How far did you lower it?


Lowered with TSportline springs which advertised 1" drop. Didn't want to slam it, just take the edge off the open wheel well look and keep a stock spring rate feel.


----------



## DLove23

That pic of the lowered car has convinced me. I'm probably going with the flow forged 18 inch Turbines from TSportline. Anyone have a referral code they could DM me?


----------



## MrBCC

DLove23 said:


> That pic of the lowered car has convinced me. I'm probably going with the flow forged 18 inch Turbines from TSportline. Anyone have a referral code they could DM me?





DLove23 said:


> Hmmm. Interesing. That indeed does look much better. How far did you lower it?


Sorry for late reply, didn't see this one. The TSportline springs lower by 1".


----------



## RickO2018

Mad Hungarian said:


> Sure!
> 
> First a nano-primer:
> 
> TPMS, or Tire Pressure Monitoring Systems, have been around since the 90's but only went mainstream in the mid 2000's when the U.S. regulatory agency NHTSA decided they should become mandatory. The E.U. has recently followed suit, but they are not obligatory elsewhere (yet) so not all markets have them as standard or even optional. This is particularly confusing in Canada, where some models otherwise identical to the U.S. version have, and others don't, largely depending on where they were built.
> 
> There are two main types:
> 
> *Direct: *In this system each wheel has an actual pressure sensor inside it, almost always attached to the backside of the air valve except for Ford, who for a while had the mounted in the drop well (that deep trench inside the wheel's barrel that allows the tires to be fitted) and strapped in there with a giant hose clamp. Direct systems can be very basic (light on if pressure drops on any tire) or fancy (real-time pressure display and temperature for each tire). With this system you need to have sensors in all your wheels, summer, winter, track, whatever, for it to work. The sensors also need to be programmed to the vehicle, otherwise you'd be getting random pressure info from everyone around you! This can be joyfully easy (Tesla, some Hondas and Chryslers) to insanely complex, requiring special tools, computers or visits to the dealer (these OEMs shall remain nameless. You know who you are).
> Aviso: In the U.S. you cannot knowingly disable the system without running afoul of the law, so good idea to make sure your new wheels have them. Not sure about E.U., and in Canada we can do whatever we want. Almost all cars can function perfectly well without the sensors, the TPMS warning light will then be on full time but it should be noted that on some models you may not be able to select some of the sportier Drive modes nor deactivate Traction or Stability controls. If you have an icy, uphill driveway, not being able to deactivate Traction Control can be a real bummer. You've been warned.
> 
> *Indirect: *A lovely and simple solution (thank you, nameless engineers) that uses the vehicle's existing hardware to figure out that a tire is losing pressure. This is done with the ABS sensors in each hub that monitor the speeds of each wheel. If one tire loses pressure it will get shorter as it goes flat, reducing its effective diameter, and basic math tells us it will have to spin faster to keep up with the other three. The computer can recognize that pattern and then set off a warning. Unfortunately the early systems had to have significant delays programmed into them so for it not to trigger every time you turned left or right, when the wheels will need to turn at different speeds. It also has a hard time with multiple simultaneous pressure losses, so most OEMs went with Direct where required. However some new versions with additional input for the more advanced sensors in the Stability Control system have allowed Indirect to function much more efficiently so it is slowly making a comeback.
> 
> Tesla uses the Direct system on all its models, the 3 included. The good news is since 2014 they essentially all use the same sensor, OE part number 1034602 and they all program the same way, no tools required, as follows:
> 
> *Tesla TPMS Relearn Procedure*
> 
> 1. Ensure all tires are inflated to placard pressure
> 2. Get in car, making sure all doors and the trunk are closed
> 3. Turn vehicle on
> 4. On center screen select "Controls"
> 5. Select "Settings"
> 6. Select "Service and Reset"
> 7. Select "Tire Pressure Monitor"
> 8. Select "Reset Sensors"
> 9. Select the tire size
> 10. Drive for at least 10 minutes above 20 mph so vehicle can learn the new sensor ID numbers, or if this is after a rotation, learn where the old ones are now repositioned
> 
> I should note that after we switched from the 19" OE to the 18" winter setup on the Model 3 we couldn't get past Step 7 until we started driving the car. About 5 minutes it suddenly popped the Tire Size selection display onto the screen, and when we selected 18" it confirmed all was good and began displaying pressures immediately. Not sure if any of the S or X owners have ever experienced that. But it was still easy as pie compared to some of the other systems out there and makes it simple for owners to do their own rotations and summer/winter swaps.


----------



## Mad Hungarian

MrBCC said:


> Hey Mad Hugarian and JeffC, what are your thoughts on spacers?
> 
> 1) I'm thinking of getting a square setup of 19 x 8.5 Enkei Raijins (35mm offset), and potentially putting in spacers to complete the flush look. I've heard mixed reviews of whether spacers are ok (>10mm). Thoughts on this?
> 
> 2) I'm also hoping to find a quality 6061 or better aluminum spacer with the right setup, such as hub centric bolt-on). Any recommendations?
> 
> Appreciate the help!


Model 3 is extremely limited in what can be done with spacers as the studs are only 25 mm long. This means if you go with anything thicker than about 3 mm, you will no longer have the minimum amount of safe thread engagement for your lug nuts left protruding from the wheel.
The only alternative is to go with bolt-on adapters as you mention. However you're then presented with another problem in that if you want to use anything _thinner_ than 25 mm you will need to cut the car's OE studs, meaning you can no longer run without the spacers.
Best to just get wheels that fit correctly.


----------



## BostonPilot

Great thread. I finally decided to go with the PUO, even though I really would have preferred 19" wheels (because of the potholes in Boston). The winter road conditions here are really terrible, so I'd prefer to run 18" wheels for a winter tire, but I'm worried about clearing the brakes. Did someone say that non-Tesla 18" probably would fit over the larger brakes?

I'm currently Oct-Dec delivery, so I'd like to already have the winter tires when I finally get the car...

I'll keep an eye on this thread, it's been really helpful already.


----------



## DLove23

Mad Hungarian said:


> Well looks like Jeff beat me to it, but I essentially agree with everything he wrote so my job just got a little easier .
> If you're most concerned about acceleration I'd go with an 18" stagger. Assuming you're also going to get a new set of staggered wheels (8.5" or 9.0" front and 9.5" or 10.0" rear) I'd suggest a 235/45R18 front and 265/40R18 rear as they have identical O.D.s. Pilot Sport 4S is an excellent choice and is available in that pairing.
> By keeping the 235 size in front you'll avoid most of the aero drag increase (at least the tire-induced part) and that 265 out back will really hook up. Some may object that you won't get maximum cornering power as the stagger will add a little understeer (car pushing towards the outside of the corner) but as the RWD 3 has a 44%/56% front/rear weight distribution I think it's still appropriate in the handling sense and if anything it'll make it a little easier to control at the limit.
> If you wanted to keep the stock Aeros, or simply stick with another set of 18x8.5 wheels all-around, then you could go 235/45R18 front and 255/40R18 rear (the max that fits on an 8.5"). That rear size is only 1.1% smaller in O.D. and as such shouldn't cause any issues.


Decided to go with the 18 inch flow-forged Turbines from TSportline. Also going with the Michelin Pilot Sport 4S tires. Only remaining question is what do I do when it comes to the stagger? Will the Pilot Sport 4S hook up well enough at the rear to stay with the 235 size? Or will I get benefit from going to the 255?


----------



## Mad Hungarian

DLove23 said:


> Decided to go with the 18 inch flow-forged Turbines from TSportline. Also going with the Michelin Pilot Sport 4S tires. Only remaining question is what do I do when it comes to the stagger? Will the Pilot Sport 4S hook up well enough at the rear to stay with the 235 size? Or will I get benefit from going to the 255?


I'm not convinced at this point that the 255 rears will make a _huge _difference in straight-line launches, where they will unquestionably prove their merit is when you're trying to put down a lot of power coming out of a turn.
But assuming mine arrives before we get snow, rest assured I'll be testing this.


----------



## JeffC

DLove23 said:


> Decided to go with the 18 inch flow-forged Turbines from TSportline. Also going with the Michelin Pilot Sport 4S tires. Only remaining question is what do I do when it comes to the stagger? Will the Pilot Sport 4S hook up well enough at the rear to stay with the 235 size? Or will I get benefit from going to the 255?


TBH This is my main question now too. Are you getting the Performance Model 3? Do you plan to track/race it?

If you're on a track you may benefit from wider tires. I hope to do track days with my Performance Model 3, and will get light Enkei Racing wheels in 18x9x30mm offset and 255/40 tires both front and back, or could go staggered and get 295s on 10.5s rear. (Lightness matters a lot for performance, particularly acceleration.)

The Pilot Sport 4S would probably be my top choice for performance street driving. For mixed street/track use, I'll probably start with the Bridgestone RE-71R.

Note that the 255 may benefit slightly from a 9 inch wheel.

Dual Motor Model 3 (including Performance version) has a nearly 50/50 weight balance and in principle may not need stagger as much as the slightly rear heavy single motor. But it also has much rear motor torque and would probably benefit from the 255s and possibly 295s. Wider tires at the back (or narrower at front) changes the chassis balance towards understeer in general, but it depends on dynamic conditions.

If you're not racing, the 235s will be slightly more energy efficient due to being narrower. That's probably why Tesla chose relatively narrow tires for the torque available. (Narrower tires have a smaller frontal area for lower aerodynamic drag, slightly more range, etc.)

All engineering decisions are tradeoffs between multiple real world goals. It's important to understand your goals and the nature of the tradeoffs and how the tradeoffs affect your goals.


----------



## rlb4

255/40 will fit on the stock 8.5" wide 18" rims. They should give a noticeable amount of extra traction without too much loss in range. A pretty good compromise.


----------



## JeffC

rlb4 said:


> 255/40 will fit on the stock 8.5" wide 18" rims. They should give a noticeable amount of extra traction without too much loss in range. A pretty good compromise.


Thanks for the reminder. That's what Mad Hungarian found earlier too.


----------



## rlb4

JeffC said:


> Thanks for the reminder. That's what Mad Hungarian found earlier too.


I'm most likely going with that since I am getting the AWD(non-P) and place a higher priority on performance than range. Also, as a side benefit, the wider tire will be about 10 mm more flush(acting like a 10 mm spacer).


----------



## DLove23

JeffC said:


> TBH This is my main question now too. Are you getting the Performance Model 3? Do you plan to track/race it?
> 
> If you're on a track you may benefit from wider tires. I hope to do track days with my Performance Model 3, and will get light Enkei Racing wheels in 18x9x30mm offset and 255/40 tires both front and back, or could go staggered and get 295s on 10.5s rear. (Lightness matters a lot for performance, particularly acceleration.)
> 
> The Pilot Sport 4S would probably be my top choice for performance street driving. For mixed street/track use, I'll probably start with the Bridgestone RE-71R.
> 
> Note that the 255 may benefit slightly from a 9 inch wheel.
> 
> Dual Motor Model 3 (including Performance version) has a nearly 50/50 weight balance and in principle may not need stagger as much as the slightly rear heavy single motor. But it also has much rear motor torque and would probably benefit from the 255s and possibly 295s. Wider tires at the back (or narrower at front) changes the chassis balance towards understeer in general, but it depends on dynamic conditions.
> 
> If you're not racing, the 235s will be slightly more energy efficient due to being narrower. That's probably why Tesla chose relatively narrow tires for the torque available. (Narrower tires have a smaller frontal area for lower aerodynamic drag, slightly more range, etc.)
> 
> All engineering decisions are tradeoffs between multiple real world goals. It's important to understand your goals and the nature of the tradeoffs and how the tradeoffs affect your goals.


I already have the RWD LR Model 3. And no, I don't plan to take it to the track, but you never know. If the situation arrises where I could have a little fun with it in that arena I might! haha

I did wonder how much heavier the 255 is compared to the 235, and if that extra heft would outweigh (literally, lol) any advantage the extra hook the 255 would provide.

Edit: shoutout to @Mad Hungarian for his input as well! What a great resource this is


----------



## DLove23

rlb4 said:


> 255/40 will fit on the stock 8.5" wide 18" rims. They should give a noticeable amount of extra traction without too much loss in range. A pretty good compromise.


Will they look normal on 8.5" rims or appear to bulge over at all? Does anyone have any example pics?


----------



## JeffC

DLove23 said:


> I already have the RWD LR Model 3. And no, I don't plan to take it to the track, but you never know. If the situation arrises where I could have a little fun with it in that arena I might! haha
> 
> I did wonder how much heavier the 255 is compared to the 235, and if that extra heft would outweigh (literally, lol) any advantage the extra hook the 255 would provide.
> 
> Edit: shoutout to @Mad Hungarian for his input as well! What a great resource this is


255 should be slightly heavier than 235 since it's a wider tire, but the difference is probably pretty small. It's a valid question to ask how much the greater weight would work against the greater grip. It's possible acceleration might be a tiny bit slower (due to the added mass to spin up), but grip should be a bit higher.

The difference in grip might be more clearly noticeable on a race track.


----------



## JeffC

DLove23 said:


> Will they look normal on 8.5" rims or appear to bulge over at all? Does anyone have any example pics?


A 255 should stick out by 10mm more on each side than a 235. Probably a slight difference in appearance, but could be minor and subtle. I'd guess one would need to see them in person to have any chance of noticing a small difference.

It's probably not going to be highly visible, IMO.


----------



## rlb4

Per Tire Rack, the 255's weigh the same as the 235's. The 235's seem like they are not as wide as the rim. Maybe because the inflation pressure is so much higher than normal. So I don't think the 255's will bulge too much, and the added bulge will give some rim protection. We definitely need to see pictures.


----------



## Mad Hungarian

rlb4 said:


> Per Tire Rack, the 255's weigh the same as the 235's. The 235's seem like they are not as wide as the rim. Maybe because the inflation pressure is so much higher than normal. So I don't think the 255's will bulge too much, and the added bulge will give some rim protection. We definitely need to see pictures.


Actually both Tire Rack and Michelin USA list the 255/40R18 as being heavier, however their respective numbers don't agree.

Here's Tire Rack's:
















(source here)

And here's Michelin's:
















(source here)

Without having either here to weigh I obviously don't know which is correct, but clearly the 255/40 is heavier as one would expect.

Is that 1.26 to 2 lbs difference enough to negate the traction advantage? That's all going to depend on whether the 255/40 offers a measurable traction advantage to begin with, and if so how much. It's certainly an interesting question and one that really can only be decided by testing. Inquiring minds will need to find out...


----------



## rlb4

Mad Hungarian said:


> Actually both Tire Rack and Michelin USA list the 255/40R18 as being heavier, however their respective numbers don't agree.
> 
> Here's Tire Rack's:
> View attachment 13465
> 
> View attachment 13466
> 
> (source here)
> 
> And here's Michelin's:
> View attachment 13467
> 
> View attachment 13468
> 
> (source here)
> 
> Without having either here to weigh I obviously don't know which is correct, but clearly the 255/40 is heavier as one would expect.
> 
> Is that 1.26 to 2 lbs difference enough to negate the traction advantage? That's all going to depend on whether the 255/40 offers a measurable traction advantage to begin with, and if so how much. It's certainly an interesting question and one that really can only be decided by testing. Inquiring minds will need to find out...


I was looking at the Michelin Pilot Sport A/S 3+. Both sizes were 26 lbs.


----------



## garsh

rlb4 said:


> I was looking at the Michelin Pilot Sport A/S 3+. Both sizes were 26 lbs.


Michelin's website sez:
235/45R18/XL 98V = 26.48 lbs
255/40ZR18 95Y = 26.15 lbs


----------



## Mad Hungarian

rlb4 said:


> I was looking at the Michelin Pilot Sport A/S 3+. Both sizes were 26 lbs.


Apologies, we've been talking so much about Pilot 4S around here that I didn't catch that.


----------



## Mad Hungarian

garsh said:


> Michelin's website sez:
> 235/45R18/XL 98V = 26.48 lbs
> 255/40ZR18 95Y = 26.15 lbs


Ah, now I get why the A/S 3+ 255/40 is the same weight (fractionally lighter in fact)... it has a standard load index number whereas the 235/45 is XL, meaning a heavier, reinforced carcass.


----------



## rlb4

Mad Hungarian said:


> Ah, now I get why the A/S 3+ 255/40 is the same weight (fractionally lighter in fact)... it has a standard load index number whereas the 235/45 is XL, meaning a heavier, reinforced carcass.


No problem. I should have specified the tire. Do you think the lower load index of the 255/40 18 will be a problem?


----------



## DLove23

Mad Hungarian said:


> Ah, now I get why the A/S 3+ 255/40 is the same weight (fractionally lighter in fact)... it has a standard load index number whereas the 235/45 is XL, meaning a heavier, reinforced carcass.


Hmmm. Would the 255 Pilot Sport A/S's be the better tire to get then?


----------



## JeffC

DLove23 said:


> Hmmm. Would the 255 Pilot Sport A/S's be the better tire to get then?


Depends on your use. All season tires generally don't perform as well in the dry as summer tires. But the former generally work better in rain and snow, etc. For true snow use you'd want pure snow tires.


----------



## Zippy_EV

DLove23 said:


> Hmmm. Would the 255 Pilot Sport A/S's be the better tire to get then?


I've had a set of A/S 3+ for six months on a sports car and have been quite pleased with them. They offer plenty of grip on the street in the wet and dry. I haven't had them long enough to try them in the winter. (It's the first time on that car I am trying an all season vs dedicated summer tire and while there is a difference in ultimate grip the tire is very good so far.)


----------



## DLove23

JeffC said:


> Depends on your use. All season tires generally don't perform as well in the dry as summer tires. But the former generally work better in rain and snow, etc. For true snow use you'd want pure snow tires.


Ah, they're all-seasons. Shoulda figured that out by the A/S lol xD.


----------



## JeffC

DLove23 said:


> Ah, they're all-seasons. Shoulda figured that out by the A/S lol xD.


Yes, the A/S are all season and the Pilot Sport 4S are summer tires. Really different type of tires, though I'm sure the top Michelin A/S is very good too. Definitely somewhat apples and oranges.


----------



## Mad Hungarian

rlb4 said:


> No problem. I should have specified the tire. Do you think the lower load index of the 255/40 18 will be a problem?


Not at all. However if you want to be extra cautious you could follow Tesla's instructions on revising the rear GAWR (Gross Axle Weight Rating) when using the lower load index tires.
Here are the various scenarios from the manual:









As we can see when any variant of the car is running the 235/45R18 *98* XL tires, the rear GAWR is allowed to be 2840 lbs / 1110 kg.
But when running the 235/40R19 *96 *XL or 235/35R20 *92* XL, they lower the rear GAWR to 2767 lbs / 1092 kg to adjust for the lower load index tires.
As the *95* load index of the 255/40R18 A/S 3 falls in between the OE 19" and 20" sizes, you'd still be well within Tesla's own specs for the optional sizes.


----------



## Mad Hungarian

DLove23 said:


> Hmmm. Would the 255 Pilot Sport A/S's be the better tire to get then?


I wrote something of a micro-treatise on the matter a while back. It's a bit biased in that my country gets a crazy variety of temperatures and conditions of the course of spring/summer/fall, but as this is sadly becoming the case for a large chunk of North America (and lots of the globe) I think it makes sense for most folks who aren't chasing the stop watch.
But since the object of the exercise here is how get the best possible acceleration numbers and what effect each variable will have on it, it must be noted that switching to an all-season is going to have a slightly negative effect. Well, that is when thrown into the standard mix on how we usually record such things for posterity and bar room smack talk: when testing on warm, dry days. If you're trying to get the fastest launch times when it's rainy and just a few degrees above freezing then the all-season will no doubt take the lead.


----------



## DLove23

Mad Hungarian said:


> I wrote something of a micro-treatise on the matter a while back. It's a bit biased in that my country gets a crazy variety of temperatures and conditions of the course of spring/summer/fall, but as this is sadly becoming the case for a large chunk of North America (and lots of the globe) I think it makes sense for most folks who aren't chasing the stop watch.
> But since the object of the exercise here is how get the best possible acceleration numbers and what effect each variable will have on it, it must be noted that switching to an all-season is going to have a slightly negative effect. Well, that is when thrown into the standard mix on how we usually record such things for posterity and bar room smack talk: when testing on warm, dry days. If you're trying to get the fastest launch times when it's rainy and just a few degrees above freezing then the all-season will no doubt take the lead.


I guess my biggest question regarding whether to go with the 255 vs. 235 for the rear tires is in regards to slippage. I currently have the stock Aero rims and tires, which are 235, and I know that when I hit the accelerator I feel the back end occasionally slip. This is just in a straight line, not coming out of a corner. Will the 235 Pilot Sport 4S overcome that because of the enhanced grip characteristics of the tire, or will this require the wider 255 to properly address the issue?


----------



## JeffC

DLove23 said:


> I guess my biggest question regarding whether to go with the 255 vs. 235 for the rear tires is in regards to slippage. I currently have the stock Aero rims and tires, which are 235, and I know that when I hit the accelerator I feel the back end occasionally slip. This is just in a straight line, not coming out of a corner. Will the 235 Pilot Sport 4S overcome that because of the enhanced grip characteristics of the tire, or will this require the wider 255 to properly address the issue?


The Michelin Pilot Sport 4S is much stickier than the energy tires on the Aeros. Either should work well, at the tradeoff of slightly less range.

235 is a relatively narrow tire for a car of this performance. 255 is arguably more appropriate but will cost some additional range/efficiency. We expect 235 was chosen as an efficiency biased compromise to get a bit more range while still offering good performance.

If the tires are slipping, it means you need to slow down and/or change your driving style. Attend a racing or high performance driving school for learning more about the latter, if you haven't already.

Also, never "hit" any control (steering, brake, throttle). Engage them gradually and smoothly. If you get into trouble, calmly disengage them gradually and smoothly.


----------



## DLove23

JeffC said:


> The Michelin Pilot Sport 4S is much stickier than the energy tires on the Aeros. Either should work well, at the tradeoff of slightly less range.
> 
> 235 is a relatively narrow tire for a car of this performance. 255 is arguably more appropriate but will cost some additional range/efficiency.
> 
> If the tires are slipping, it means you need to slow down and/or change your driving style. Attend a racing or high performance driving school for learning more about the latter, if you haven't already.
> 
> Also, never "hit" any control (steering, brake, throttle). Engage it gradually and smoothly. If you get into trouble, disengage it gradually and smoothly.


I might have to do that, high performance driving school. Depends on cost and location of course.


----------



## JeffC

DLove23 said:


> I might have to do that, high performance driving school. Depends on cost and location of course.


There should be good ones in most areas. The local Sears Point based school looks good North of San Francisco. Also relatively affordable at about $600 per module. The knowledge gained is INVALUABLE even if you never race or do a track day ever; a life skill that can literally save your lives.

Many permanent, old race tracks have well established schools. Like any school, it's worthwhile to look for a well-staffed one.

Some insurance will discount for driving school attendance.


----------



## TSLA 3V

Just installed aftermarket wheels with oem Tesla tpms purchased from tsportline. After driving for about 30 miles, the “tire pressure system needs service” warning popped up. Thought with oem sensors, it would’ve been easy for the system to recognize. 

Has anyone have had this happen?


----------



## daniloreyes

How do we change for different tire size? my car measures 3% higher speeds.


----------



## NJturtlePower

JeffC said:


> 255 should be slightly heavier than 235 since it's a wider tire, but the difference is probably pretty small. It's a valid question to ask how much the greater weight would work against the greater grip. It's possible acceleration might be a tiny bit slower (due to the added mass to spin up), but grip should be a bit higher.
> 
> The difference in grip might be more clearly noticeable on a race track.





rlb4 said:


> Per Tire Rack, the 255's weigh the same as the 235's. The 235's seem like they are not as wide as the rim. Maybe because the inflation pressure is so much higher than normal. So I don't think the 255's will bulge too much, and the added bulge will give some rim protection. We definitely need to see pictures.


What you guys think about something like the General G-Max RS - Ultra HP Summer tires in 255/40/18 as an upgrade?

Weight is still 25lbs just like the stock 235/45/18's, but obviously the width is going to help with traction at the cost of a little range loss on the front end. Plus they are pretty cheap which helps since their 360 treadwear rating will obviously not last like the OEM's.

https://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires.jsp?&tireMake=General&tireModel=G-MAX+RS&partnum=54YR8GMRSXL


----------



## JeffC

daniloreyes said:


> How do we change for different tire size? my car measures 3% higher speeds.


I would assume it can't be changed. The cars are designed for a (narrow range of) tire size(s).


----------



## JeffC

NJturtlePower said:


> What you guys think about something like the General G-Max RS - Ultra HP Summer tires in 255/40/18 as an upgrade?
> 
> Weight is still 25lbs just like the stock 235/45/18's, but obviously the width is going to help with traction at the cost of a little range loss on the front end. Plus they are pretty cheap which helps since their 360 treadwear rating will obviously not last like the OEM's.
> 
> https://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires.jsp?&tireMake=General&tireModel=G-MAX+RS&partnum=54YR8GMRSXL


I'm sure it would work. Higher performance tires like the Michelin Pilot Sport 4S may perform better and/or feel better at a higher cost. The more energy efficient tires may last longer and/or have longer range.

Tire quality is a huge determinant in feel and performance. I would always recommend to get the "best" tire you can reasonably afford. Tire quality is a bit like athletic shoe quality. You can run an athletic race in $20 sneakers, but better shoes may work better, feel better, be safer, etc. If those don't matter as much, then any tire/shoe may do ok.

The Michelin Pilot Sport 4S is an excellent tire and would be my top choice if performance and feel is a priority. The energy efficient tires Tesla puts on the Aero wheel are great for efficiency. Basically they selected excellent tires for different needs.

So I would say it depends what your goals are: more grip, lower tire cost, more range, better feel, etc.

Note that 255/40-18 is a little smaller in diameter than the stock tires. May cause the speedometer to read a little off. 265 would be better, but may not fit on the 8.5 inch wide wheel. Reference Mad Hugarian at: https://teslaownersonline.com/threads/wheel-and-tire-tech.5626/page-5#post-134010(He had an earlier reference about 255 being the maximum that would fit on the stock 18x8.5 Aero wheel, but I can't find it now.)


----------



## NJturtlePower

JeffC said:


> I'm sure it would work. Higher performance tires like the Michelin Pilot Sport 4S may perform better and/or feel better at a higher cost. The more energy efficient tires may last longer and/or have longer range.
> 
> Tire quality is a huge determinant in feel and performance. I would always recommend to get the "best" tire you can reasonably afford. Tire quality is a bit like athletic shoe quality. You can run an athletic race in $20 sneakers, but better shoes may work better, feel better, be safer, etc. If those don't matter as much, then any tire/shoe may do ok.
> 
> The Michelin Pilot Sport 4S is an excellent tire and would be my top choice if performance and feel is a priority. The energy efficient tires Tesla puts on the Aero wheel are great for efficiency. Basically they selected excellent tires for different needs.
> 
> So I would say it depends what your goals are: more grip, lower tire cost, more range, better feel, etc.


IMO pricing and branding is not the best indicator of performance or quality in tires among many other things.

Sure there is always super low end and outrageously high end, but there is also overpriced and under-rated as well.

I've had and replaced Michelin's on previous cars/trucks (Infiniti's, Lincoln's, Jeeps) and found that General's, Kumho's and Continental's usually performed better and lasted longer regardless of cost.

Do you really believe the Michelin's will have 75% better performance or traction on the Model 3 than the General's based on their 75% higher cost?

Anyone not completely swimming in cash I would assume would consider value as a balance of performance vs cost in their decisions much as they would with the car purchase itself.


----------



## JeffC

NJturtlePower said:


> IMO pricing and branding is not the best indicator of performance or quality in tires among many other things.
> 
> Sure there is always super low end and outrageously high end, but there is also overpriced and under-rated as well.
> 
> I've had and replaced Michelin's on previous cars/trucks (Infiniti's, Lincoln's, Jeeps) and found that General's, Kumho's and Continental's usually performed better and lasted longer regardless of cost.
> 
> Do you really believe the Michelin's will have 75% better performance or traction on the Model 3 than the General's based on their 75% higher cost?
> 
> Anyone not completely swimming in cash I would assume would consider value as a balance of performance vs cost in their decisions much as they would with the car purchase itself.


Agree some of it is branding and profits. A $100 athletic shoe is not 3x better than a $33 shoe, but it is usually a bit better made, performs better and feels better.

I've found some bargains in tires too. YMMV.

The Pilot Sport 4S is known to work well. Others could too.

People who do competition or high performance driving usually find tires to be very important.


----------



## JeffC

[Wasn't sure whether to put this in my own related thread: https://teslaownersonline.com/threads/that-5k-performance-upgrade-option-part-deux.7745/ It seemed most related to wheels and tires, so I put it here.]

Feedback wanted:

I have a Model 3 Performance with Performance Upgrade option probably due within a couple weeks. I plan to replace the stock 20 inch wheels and tires with 18 inch racing wheels, Enkei RPF1 in 18x8.5x40mm, and Michelin Pilot Sport 4S 235/45-18 tires. Goal is to reduce wheel and tire weight to increase performance. (The wheel may be large enough in inner diameter to fit the Performance Upgrade brakes. See the discussion in the link above, which is mostly about that question.)

(All factory Model 3 tires are 235mm nominal width, which is a bit narrow for the Performance version, but would aid lower drag and longer range by a few percent.)

This is for street use and matches the width compromise between grip and range that the factory wheel and tires have, but with a much lighter wheel. It would be the same excellent tire as the factory 20s, but in a higher profile and therefore taller sidewall.

My question to the group is: How much (if any) of the excellent handling / responsiveness of the car would I lose by going with the taller sidewall? I expect acceleration, braking and bump control to be much better due to the significantly lighter wheel and tire combination.

Would be particularly interested in the thoughts of the professionals @Mad Hungarian and @MountainPass

For track use I would probably get a separate set of 265 or 275 near racing tires on 9.5 or 10 inch wide wheels respectively, per Sasha, on 18 inch wheels if I can find them, or on 19s if not.. Interestingly both tire and wheel choices get somewhat limited 275 for soft compound tires. Toyo Proxes R888 soft compound DOT legal racing tire is available in 275/45-18 for example. 265/35/19 seems to have the widest competition tire availability.


----------



## daniloreyes

@Mad Hungarian 
I need help. I need to know if the rear tires can have a larger diameter than the front tires. The fronts are 26.7" and the rears are 27.7"
Essentially asking if the sensors are not going to give an ABS error or something similar.


----------



## JeffC

daniloreyes said:


> @Mad Hungarian
> I need help. I need to know if the rear tires can have a larger diameter than the front tires. The fronts are 26.7" and the rears are 27.7"
> Essentially asking if the sensors are not going to give an ABS error or something similar.


That sounds like a much too large of a difference. @Mad Hungarian was talking about 1.5% front to back diameter differences potentially causing a problem earlier. https://teslaownersonline.com/threads/wheel-and-tire-tech.5626/page-4#post-122833

Also 27.7 is about 1 inch larger diameter than stock. I recommend using near stock diameters.


----------



## Mad Hungarian

NJturtlePower said:


> What you guys think about something like the General G-Max RS - Ultra HP Summer tires in 255/40/18 as an upgrade?
> 
> Weight is still 25lbs just like the stock 235/45/18's, but obviously the width is going to help with traction at the cost of a little range loss on the front end. Plus they are pretty cheap which helps since their 360 treadwear rating will obviously not last like the OEM's.
> 
> https://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires.jsp?&tireMake=General&tireModel=G-MAX+RS&partnum=54YR8GMRSXL





JeffC said:


> I'm sure it would work. Higher performance tires like the Michelin Pilot Sport 4S may perform better and/or feel better at a higher cost. The more energy efficient tires may last longer and/or have longer range.
> 
> Tire quality is a huge determinant in feel and performance. I would always recommend to get the "best" tire you can reasonably afford. Tire quality is a bit like athletic shoe quality. You can run an athletic race in $20 sneakers, but better shoes may work better, feel better, be safer, etc. If those don't matter as much, then any tire/shoe may do ok.
> 
> The Michelin Pilot Sport 4S is an excellent tire and would be my top choice if performance and feel is a priority. The energy efficient tires Tesla puts on the Aero wheel are great for efficiency. Basically they selected excellent tires for different needs.
> 
> So I would say it depends what your goals are: more grip, lower tire cost, more range, better feel, etc.
> 
> Note that 255/40-18 is a little smaller in diameter than the stock tires. May cause the speedometer to read a little off. 265 would be better, but may not fit on the 8.5 inch wide wheel. Reference Mad Hugarian at: https://teslaownersonline.com/threads/wheel-and-tire-tech.5626/page-5#post-134010(He had an earlier reference about 255 being the maximum that would fit on the stock 18x8.5 Aero wheel, but I can't find it now.)


General has come a long way since the old days of being the tire of choice for your father's Oldsmobile thanks to them now being part of the Continental group, and the latest G-max models generally get good reviews.
Jeff was correct, 255/40R18 is indeed the widest you can go on the 18x8.5 wheel, so no problem there. These ought to give you a serious increase in cornering performance at a range cost of around 5% or so. Speedo will overread by 1.1%.


----------



## daniloreyes

My question still stands please let me know before I transfer the tpms...
Will I have issues as he was answering a long time ago when the model 3 wasn't out yet... still need to know if
it will falsely trigger ABS/TC/ESC functions..... as
[I][SIZE=3][COLOR=rgb(39, 38, 36)]@Mad Hungarian [SIZE=14px][COLOR=rgb(39, 38, 36)] skipped my question... :) [/COLOR][/SIZE][/COLOR][/SIZE][/I]


----------



## Mad Hungarian

JeffC said:


> [Wasn't sure whether to put this in my own related thread: https://teslaownersonline.com/threads/that-5k-performance-upgrade-option-part-deux.7745/ It seemed most related to wheels and tires, so I put it here.]
> 
> Feedback wanted:
> 
> I have a Model 3 Performance with Performance Upgrade option probably due within a couple weeks. I plan to replace the stock 20 inch wheels and tires with 18 inch racing wheels, Enkei RPF1 in 18x8.5x40mm, and Michelin Pilot Sport 4S 235/45-18 tires. Goal is to reduce wheel and tire weight to increase performance. (The wheel may be large enough in inner diameter to fit the Performance Upgrade brakes. See the discussion in the link above, which is mostly about that question.)
> 
> (All factory Model 3 tires are 235mm nominal width, which is a bit narrow for the Performance version, but would aid lower drag and longer range by a few percent.)
> 
> This is for street use and matches the width compromise between grip and range that the factory wheel and tires have, but with a much lighter wheel. It would be the same excellent tire as the factory 20s, but in a higher profile and therefore taller sidewall.
> 
> My question to the group is: How much (if any) of the excellent handling / responsiveness of the car would I lose by going with the taller sidewall? I expect acceleration, braking and bump control to be much better due to the significantly lighter wheel and tire combination.
> 
> Would be particularly interested in the thoughts of the professionals @Mad Hungarian and @MountainPass
> 
> For track use I would probably get a separate set of 265 or 275 near racing tires on 9.5 or 10 inch wide wheels respectively, per Sasha, on 18 inch wheels if I can find them, or on 19s if not.. Interestingly both tire and wheel choices get somewhat limited 275 for soft compound tires. Toyo Proxes R888 soft compound DOT legal racing tire is available in 275/45-18 for example. 265/35/19 seems to have the widest competition tire availability.


Hmmm, based on the fact you'll be using the exact same tire you're certainly going to give up a bit of initial turn-in response and sharpness, although I'm sure it'll still be plenty alert if for no other reason the steering ratio is so quick on this car to begin with. However trying to guess how much absolute lateral grip you'll give up is a bit trickier. It may wind up not being a huge difference, but you'd need to skidpad them back-to-back to really know for sure. Since the goal is to have a good blend of efficiency and performance while improving accelaration and suspension reaction speed I'd say this ought to be a good compromise. You could go to an even more agressive 18" tire if you wanted to recapture or even exceed the cornering capabilities of the OE 20s, but why bother when you will have your track set for that purpose?


----------



## Mad Hungarian

daniloreyes said:


> My question still stands please let me know before I transfer the tpms...
> Will I have issues as he was answering a long time ago when the model 3 wasn't out yet... still need to know if
> it will falsely trigger ABS/TC/ESC functions..... as
> [I][SIZE=3][COLOR=rgb(39, 38, 36)]@Mad Hungarian [SIZE=14px][COLOR=rgb(39, 38, 36)] skipped my question... [/COLOR][/SIZE][/COLOR][/SIZE][/I]


Hey there, getting to it!
Unfortunately we still don't know what the net front/rear O.D. difference limit is for this car as to my knowledge it hasn't been tested beyond 1% or so, but that much certainly wouldn't cause any issues. However when you're talking about 3% difference you're definitely in an area where just about every ICE car I know would start having hissy fits. Will this trigger issues on Model 3? We'd need someone to try it. I may be able to run that test in a few weeks once I have mine.

What's more worrisome to me though is the 27.7" O.D. you want to use, that is a whopping 5.3% larger than stock. What size tire is this? And why do you want to go so far above the factory O.D? You're going to lose a lot of torque and add a lot of uneccesary tire weight.
Why not just run something closer to the correct O.D.? We certainly don't lack for combinations of tire sizes to fit this car.


----------



## Mad Hungarian

TSLA 3V said:


> Just installed aftermarket wheels with oem Tesla tpms purchased from tsportline. After driving for about 30 miles, the "tire pressure system needs service" warning popped up. Thought with oem sensors, it would've been easy for the system to recognize.
> 
> Has anyone have had this happen?


Never seen it happen with OEM units, only aftermarket ones that were incorrectly programmed.
Have you managed to resolve it?


----------



## JeffC

Mad Hungarian said:


> Hmmm, based on the fact you'll be using the exact same tire you're certainly going to give up a bit of initial turn-in response and sharpness, although I'm sure it'll still be plenty alert if for no other reason the steering ratio is so quick on this car to begin with. However trying to guess how much absolute lateral grip you'll give up is a bit trickier. It may wind up not being a huge difference, but you'd need to skidpad them back-to-back to really know for sure. Since the goal is to have a good blend of efficiency and performance while improving accelaration and suspension reaction speed I'd say this ought to be a good compromise. You could go to an even more agressive 18" tire if you wanted to recapture or even exceed the cornering capabilities of the OE 20s, but why bother when you will have your track set for that purpose?


Thanks much! Now I'm thinking I may want to go with 19s to not lose as much sidewall stiffness. Pretty sure want to stick with 235 for a little better efficiency. Also the PUO 3mm hub(?) lip and shorter stud grip length due to the thicker rotors is sort of throwing a monkey wrench into everyone's efforts at this early point in PM3 history.

More concerned about absolute grip levels on the race track. However would like excellent feel on both street and track setups.

Is there any evidence that taller, softer sidewalls allow greater slip angles (for a given tire design, which admittedly can vary by size, version, etc.) maybe at the cost of softer, sloppier, but also more gentle transitions? I imagine it's actually a lot more complex than that, but asking about generalities.

(For those new to the term, transitions refers to changes of direction, i.e., left to right to left in a slalom, straight into a turn, turn into a straight, etc.)

Look forward to hearing the results of measurements of PM3 PUO from you, Tire Rack, etc. Mostly the community just needs more information, which will be found over time as the cars become more available. They're still pretty new.


----------



## JeffC

Mad Hungarian said:


> General has come a long way since the old days of being the tire of choice for your father's Oldsmobile thanks to them now being part of the Continental group, and the latest G-max models generally get good reviews.
> Jeff was correct, 255/40R18 is indeed the widest you can go on the 18x8.5 wheel, so no problem there. These ought to give you a serious increase in cornering performance at a range cost of around 5% or so. Speedo will overread by 1.1%.


When Bridgestone bought Firestone quite some years ago, Bridgestone greatly improved the quality of the Firestone performance oriented tires. So perhaps there can be some benefits from mergers like Conti buying General, etc.

In principle consolidating into larger companies gives access to improved engineering, testing, etc., resources for the combined effort. Other times the larger company just shuts down the smaller one to get their market share. Depends, it seems.


----------



## daniloreyes

Mad Hungarian said:


> Hey there, getting to it!
> Unfortunately we still don't know what the net front/rear O.D. difference limit is for this car as to my knowledge it hasn't been tested beyond 1% or so, but that much certainly wouldn't cause any issues. However when you're talking about 3% difference you're definitely in an area where just about every ICE car I know would start having hissy fits. Will this trigger issues on Model 3? We'd need someone to try it. I may be able to run that test in a few weeks once I have mine.
> 
> What's more worrisome to me though is the 27.7" O.D. you want to use, that is a whopping 5.3% larger than stock. What size tire is this? And why do you want to go so far above the factory O.D? You're going to lose a lot of torque and add a lot of uneccesary tire weight.
> Why not just run something closer to the correct O.D.? We certainly don't lack for combinations of tire sizes to fit this car.


I know but I got a good deal and I'm trying.... the tires are 245/40/19 and 275/40/19 also they are michelins pilot sports 4s .... the wheels are 9" in the front and 9.5 in the rear... and yes they are heavy, but they would look so good...


----------



## JeffC

daniloreyes said:


> I know but I got a good deal and I'm trying.... the tires are 245/40/19 and 275/40/19 also they are michelins pilot sports 4s .... the wheels are 9" in the front and 9.5 in the rear... and yes they are heavy, but they would look so good...


275/35-19s would be the size to keep 275s near stock diameter. Even that is slightly larger. 275/40 would be the right aspect ratio for 18 inch tires. It's why the resulting 275/40/19 tires are about 1 inch larger diameter than stock.

The car may get very confused and possibly not move with such a large diameter difference.


----------



## daniloreyes

Will the car work without the TPMS? if only a warning comes out I can try the wheels really quick...


----------



## JeffC

daniloreyes said:


> Will the car work without the TPMS? if only a warning comes out I can try the wheels really quick...


Maybe, but much more than TPMS would be affected by a larger wheel. Also ABS, traction control, stability control, speedometer, odometer, etc.


----------



## daniloreyes

The question was if the Tesla is able to run without the TPMS. That way I can test to see if the size difference affects the other systems. So a maybe will not cut it, if someone really knows the answer I can risk to try.


----------



## Zippy_EV

daniloreyes said:


> I know but I got a good deal and I'm trying.... the tires are 245/40/19 and 275/40/19 also they are michelins pilot sports 4s .... the wheels are 9" in the front and 9.5 in the rear... and yes they are heavy, but they would look so good...


If you don't already have the tires they are very likely a bad choice as they are tall *and* wide. If you already have them try them out and report back on the outcome. (If these will fit with proper offset wheels then rubbing won't be a problem on 275/35R19.)

I received my 3 with PUO today and love the car. Pretty sure I want the Titan 7 wheels in 19 x 8.5 for street - Jeff check them out as they are so light. Sadly the group buy delivery is 3-4 months which will be too late. Winter is coming. The TST 18s may be the only light cheap street wheel that will fit the PUO currently sans spacer.

Edit: I ended up ordering the TItan 18 x 8.5 T-S5 wheels.


----------



## daniloreyes

Zippy_EV said:


> If you don't already have the tires they are very likely a bad choice as they are tall *and* wide. If you already have them try them out and report back on the outcome. (If these will fit with proper offset wheels then rubbing won't be a problem on 275/35R19.)
> 
> I received my 3 with PUO today and love the car. Pretty sure I want the Titan 7 wheels in 19 x 8.5 for street - Jeff check them out as they are so light. Sadly the group buy delivery is 3-4 months which will be too late. Winter is coming. The TST 18s may be the only light cheap street wheel that will fit the PUO currently sans spacer.


Funny, I thought I was asking in the right part of the forum so the experts can tell me.... Congrats on the Performance model, mine has the 18" and they committed the mistake of leaving the all weather tires... 
That is what all of this is about...


----------



## JeffC

daniloreyes said:


> Funny, I thought I was asking in the right part of the forum so the experts can tell me.... Congrats on the Performance model, mine has the 18" and they committed the mistake of leaving the all weather tires...
> That is what all of this is about...


The tires on the Aero wheels are energy efficient tires. They're specifically engineered to be highly efficient as a top priority. They are all season, but bad weather performance is probably a lower priority than energy efficiency. True all season tires may perform better in wet and snow, but have less range.

A Tesla may drive without TPMS working (with constant warnings after a while), but the larger diameter may cause the car not to run due to being so much different in diameter from the front, etc. Recommend using sizes close to stock.


----------



## daniloreyes

JeffC said:


> The tires on the Aero wheels are energy efficient tires. They're specifically engineered to be highly efficient as a top priority. They are all season, but bad weather performance is probably a lower priority than energy efficiency. True all season tires may perform better in wet and snow, but have less range.
> 
> A Tesla may drive without TPMS working (with constant warnings after a while), but the larger diameter may cause the car not to run due to being so much different in diameter from the front, etc. Recommend using sizes close to stock.


The point is not that the tires perform bad in bad weather..... Actually is not a just a comment, it is an observation that on the M3P (the Model 3 PERFORMANCE) the use of these Michelin MMX all weather tires, with tall soft sidewalls, in Summer, is even dangerous. The car feels unstable (yes @47 psi) 
I had to remove them and add Dunlop 600 sp lower profile (245/40/18) and that solved the problem. But it created another effect (higher miles than actual miles per hour).


----------



## JeffC

daniloreyes said:


> The point is not that the tires perform bad in bad weather..... Actually is not a just a comment, it is an observation that on the M3P (the Model 3 PERFORMANCE) the use of these Michelin MMX all weather tires, with tall soft sidewalls, in Summer, is even dangerous. The car feels unstable (yes @47 psi)
> I had to remove them and add Dunlop 600 sp lower profile (245/40/18) and that solved the problem. But it created another effect (higher miles than actual miles per hour).


If I may speak honestly and frankly, 245/40-18 is the wrong aspect ratio as it's a much smaller diameter than stock. That's why your speedometer reading is wrong. Should be 245/45-18, which would be slightly taller than the stock 235/45-18.

Yes, the stock energy tires on the Aero wheels are not performance-oriented tires. They are designed for energy efficiency and therefore longer range, not high performance.


----------



## daniloreyes

JeffC said:


> If I may speak honestly and frankly, 245/40-18 is the wrong aspect ratio as it's a much smaller diameter than stock. That's why your speedometer reading is wrong. Should be 245/45-18, which would be slightly taller than the stock 235/45-18.
> 
> Yes, the stock energy tires on the Aero wheels are not performance-oriented tires. They are designed for energy efficiency and therefore longer range, not high performance.


OMG, I'm being Grilled/blasted by people that don't read. Yes, dude, that is what I said, and yes there are some postings a few lines up....

The question, which is lost already, can't be answered in this forum because lack of knowledge.
Yes, I know the car is new.
To recap, I will need to install the tires by myself and see if the lack of TPMS will allow me to drive. Then I'll need to keep going slow, to see if the different size height front-to-back at 3.6% will affect the ABS and TC systems. Then if it goes ok, I'll need to do a set of performance driving runs, to see it if still is not affected, if-then-all is good, then install tpms.... However since I know this tire and wheel combo is very heavy, I will remove them and re-sell for a profit.... then buy either new tires or tire-wheel combo.... Wow so many emotions here.... lol Note: really if you get a performance model with aero, remove the tires and put good summer ones or at least high performance all weather tires. Tesla should not deliver the Performance model on all weather tires.
I'll try to comeback and see if I can share the outcome.
FYI the 0-60 time with the Aero/MMX tires was 3.6x secs and the 0-60 with the Dunlop 600 SP is 3.48 secs


----------



## JeffC

@daniloreyes No emotion on my side. Just stating facts. Sorry if that doesn't come across in text very well. (It's a general problem with Internet chat, etc.; not your fault or mine at all.)

Yes, performance oriented tires like the Dunlops should accelerate better than the energy tires on the Aero. Thanks for sharing that! 

Still recommend using diameters near to stock. Else the car (or any other computerized modern car really) may not work right. 

Regarding TPMS, most people don't run without it (since the car expects/needs it to be there) and most people don't run very different diameters front and back, since that could confuse the car, so yes, you'll probably need to try it to know for sure. Would be interested in what you find. 

P.S. TPMS is required by law in the U.S., which is another reason the car might not be designed to be happy without it. Not saying you're trying to break any laws, just explaining why the car may not work right without it. At a minimum you will get warning messages on the screen. 

P.P.S. No hate here; all Tesla owners are friends and cool people to me.


----------



## daniloreyes

JeffC said:


> @daniloreyes No emotion on my side. Just stating facts. Sorry if that doesn't come across in text very well. (It's a general problem with Internet chat, etc.; not your fault or mine at all.)
> 
> Yes, performance oriented tires like the Dunlops should accelerate better than the energy tires on the Aero. Thanks for sharing that!
> 
> Still recommend using diameters near to stock. Else the car (or any other computerized modern car really) may not work right.
> 
> Regarding TPMS, most people don't run without it (since the car expects/needs it to be there) and most people don't run very different diameters front and back, since that could confuse the car, so yes, you'll probably need to try it to know for sure. Would be interested in what you find.
> 
> P.S. TPMS is required by law in the U.S., which is another reason the car might not be designed to be happy without it. Not saying you're trying to break any laws, just explaining why the car may not work right without it. At a minimum you will get warning messages on the screen.
> 
> P.P.S. No hate here; all Tesla owners are friends and cool people to me.


Well I changed the tires not because of acceleration, but because the M3P is very dangerous with the stock all weather tires that were meant for the rwd..


----------



## JeffC

daniloreyes said:


> Well I changed the tires not because of acceleration, but because the M3P is very dangerous with the stock all weather tires that were meant for the rwd..


Would not call it unsafe on the Aero wheels and tires. Depends how it's driven.

Totally agree Performance Model 3 can benefit from performance oriented tires.


----------



## daniloreyes

JeffC said:


> Would not call it unsafe on the Aero wheels and tires. Depends how it's driven.
> 
> Totally agree Performance Model 3 can benefit from performance oriented tires.


Yeah, of course is depending how you drive, just don't step on it at more than 55. and don't turn the wheel either...
I can do zigzags in my model S with 19" All weather tires and the car feels safe, (at 60 mph). With the model 3 the car wants to roll over... 
FYI with the Dunlops now feels like a go kart...


----------



## daniloreyes

Well Bad news and good news....
The tires were only 2.5 % different so it would have worked....
Bad news the fronts were 255/40/19 and they are so close to the A arm that I will not even try... (Wheel is 19x9 with offset 40mm) [everywhere I search says even 265 would work]
So I'll will be selling these Michelins to someone else that has a bigger car... So Sad... My birthday was tomorrow....


----------



## rlb4

daniloreyes said:


> Well I changed the tires not because of acceleration, but because the M3P is very dangerous with the stock all weather tires that were meant for the rwd..





daniloreyes said:


> Yeah, of course is depending how you drive, just don't step on it at more than 55. and don't turn the wheel either...
> I can do zigzags in my model S with 19" All weather tires and the car feels safe, (at 60 mph). With the model 3 the car wants to roll over...
> FYI with the Dunlops now feels like a go kart...


Doesn't the AWD Model 3(non-P) have the same 18" aero wheels and Michelin tires? Most reviews stated that the extra power in the P vs the non-P AWD is below 20ish mph. So above that the non-P AWD should behave similarly. I've never read anyone say the AWD P or non-P felt unsafe or like it was going to roll over with the 18" areo wheels/tires. Something else must be going on.


----------



## Ombastic

# 


daniloreyes said:


> Well Bad news and good news....
> The tires were only 2.5 % different so it would have worked....
> Bad news the fronts were 255/40/19 and they are so close to the A arm that I will not even try... (Wheel is 19x9 with offset 40mm) [everywhere I search says even 265 would work]
> So I'll will be selling these Michelins to someone else that has a bigger car... So Sad... My birthday was tomorrow....


Really? How are people fitting 265s in the fronts with similar offsets then?


----------



## JeffC

rlb4 said:


> Doesn't the AWD Model 3(non-P) have the same 18" aero wheels and Michelin tires? Most reviews stated that the extra power in the P vs the non-P AWD is below 20ish mph. So above that the non-P AWD should behave similarly. I've never read anyone say the AWD P or non-P felt unsafe or like it was going to roll over with the 18" areo wheels/tires. Something else must be going on.


All Model 3s have the 18 x 8.5 inch Aero wheel as standard. It has the Michelin Primacy MXM4 tire in 235/45-18. That's an energy efficiency tire that will use the least energy and therefore give the best range. The Aero wheel adds as much as 10% range at highway speeds when used with its aerodynamic cover.

The factory 19x8.5 inch wheel has Continental ProContact RX in 235/40-19. It's probably sticker than the Primacy, but not as sticky as the 20:

The 20x8.5 inch wheel that with the Performance Upgrade option on Model 3 Performance only comes with excellent high performance Michelin Pilot Sport 4S tires.

The purpose of the Aero wheel is to give the most range and efficiency. The purpose of the sport wheels is to give more performance. The Primacy does not have as much grip as the 4S, but is not in any way unsafe unless driven unsafely. The primacy does have lower limits. It's designed as an energy efficient tire, not a high performance tire.

Anyone looking to upgrade the Aeros should consider the excellent 4S tires. They will increase performance at the cost of some range.


----------



## daniloreyes

Ombastic said:


> #
> 
> Really? How are people fitting 265s in the fronts with similar offsets then?


255/40 are taller than 265/30


----------



## Zippy_EV

daniloreyes said:


> 255/40 are taller than 265/30


255/40R19 is also taller than the 265/35R19 and 275/35R19 but not by a lot - no time to calc right now


Zippy_EV said:


> If you don't already have the tires they are very likely a bad choice as they are tall *and* wide. If you already have them try them out and report back on the outcome. (If these will fit with proper offset wheels then rubbing won't be a problem on 275/35R19.)
> 
> I received my 3 with PUO today and love the car. Pretty sure I want the Titan 7 wheels in 19 x 8.5 for street - Jeff check them out as they are so light. Sadly the group buy delivery is 3-4 months which will be too late. Winter is coming. The TST 18s may be the only light cheap street wheel that will fit the PUO currently sans spacer.
> 
> Edit: I ended up ordering the TItan 18 x 8.5 T-S5 wheels.


I talked with Mike @evasivemotorsports. Per our conversation there is plenty of clearance on the 18 x 8.5 even over the PUO brakes. Reportedly ~2mm clearance at the spokes and and a finger clearance at the barrel as the wheel is designed to clear big brake kits.


----------



## TSLA 3V

Mad Hungarian said:


> Never seen it happen with OEM units, only aftermarket ones that were incorrectly programmed.
> Have you managed to resolve it?


Yes, it finally recognized it the next day. Thanks!


----------



## Zippy_EV

I've been researching dedicated track tires and it doesn't appear that 265/40R18 nor 275/40R18 are an option for many tires. At least they aren't available in the RE-71R nor R888R. Yes both are available in 265/35R19 and 275/35R19. Anyone thinking about dedicated wide track wheels/tires on 18 x ~9.5, what tires are you considering? Right now it looks to me that 19s are the best option (19 x ~9.5.)


----------



## JeffC

Zippy_EV said:


> I've been researching dedicated track tires and it doesn't appear that 265/40R18 nor 275/40R18 are an option for many tires. At least they aren't available in the RE-71R nor R888R. Yes both are available in 265/35R19 and 275/35R19. Anyone thinking about dedicated wide track wheels/tires on 18 x ~9.5, what tires are you considering? Right now it looks to me that 19s are the best option (19 x ~9.5.)


There is still some question which 18 inch wheels will clear the Performance Upgrade option brakes, so I'lm probably going with 19x9.5 or 19x10 for track wheels/tires. I also found that 265/35-19s were much more available in different competition tires at Tire Rack. Seems a popular size. 275 on 10s may stick a bit better, but seem relatively uncommon in terms of different models available.


----------



## Jon S

@Mad Hungarian apologies if you've answered this one before. I'm wondering if there should be a winter wheels tread along with generic tire talk?

To the thread:
I've got a P3D+ coming at the end of October in Toronto (delayed 3 times but this time looking likely). My Delivery Advisor told me that the 19" winter package on the Tesla store would be compatible. Now we've found out that it isn't via Tesla website, I contacted the local service centre for advice and their only recommendation was to buy more 20" rims with Pirelli winters on them ($5000). I've only been in Canada for a couple of years but I'm pretty sure 20" rims and low profile winter tires aren't ideal.

I've got a winter get away with the family coming up and;

I'm concerned that any rim that fits the P3D+ will be back ordered and I'm going to have to rent a car rather than drive my P3D+ with low profile summer tires to cottage country in the winter
There appears to be some confusion around the fitment for the P3D+, with a special cut out in the rims being required?

__
https://www.reddit.com/r/teslamotors/comments/9j8l58

What are other Canadian's doing who have a P3D+? I'm seriously considering the 19" Tesla Sportline rims (albeit backorder only) and just sucking up any extra duty costs that I may have to pay.

Thoughts?


----------



## garsh

Jon S said:


> My Delivery Advisor told me that the 19" winter package on the Tesla store would be compatible. Now we've found out that it isn't via Tesla website


Interestingly, it appears that Tesla has started machining the 19" wheels the same way as the 20" wheels, so they *may* fit just fine after all.
See this thread:

Stock 19's *DO* fit Performance with Perf Package, But...


----------



## Jon S

garsh said:


> Stock 19's *DO* fit Performance with Perf Package, But...


Love the ambiguity, if I order them online they may or may not fit 

Anyone else running 18" or 19" rims on a P3D+?


----------



## Mad Hungarian

Jon S said:


> @Mad Hungarian apologies if you've answered this one before. I'm wondering if there should be a winter wheels tread along with generic tire talk?
> 
> To the thread:
> I've got a P3D+ coming at the end of October in Toronto (delayed 3 times but this time looking likely). My Delivery Advisor told me that the 19" winter package on the Tesla store would be compatible. Now we've found out that it isn't via Tesla website, I contacted the local service centre for advice and their only recommendation was to buy more 20" rims with Pirelli winters on them ($5000). I've only been in Canada for a couple of years but I'm pretty sure 20" rims and low profile winter tires aren't ideal.
> 
> I've got a winter get away with the family coming up and;
> 
> I'm concerned that any rim that fits the P3D+ will be back ordered and I'm going to have to rent a car rather than drive my P3D+ with low profile summer tires to cottage country in the winter
> There appears to be some confusion around the fitment for the P3D+, with a special cut out in the rims being required?
> 
> __
> https://www.reddit.com/r/teslamotors/comments/9j8l58
> 
> What are other Canadian's doing who have a P3D+? I'm seriously considering the 19" Tesla Sportline rims (albeit backorder only) and just sucking up any extra duty costs that I may have to pay.
> 
> Thoughts?


We're actually just putting the final details on our new part numbers for our "Direct Fit" hub-centric wheels that will solve the problem the same way the OE wheels do, by having that small step machined into the back of them and there will be choices in 18", 19" and 20". As soon they pass engineering approval we'll be releasing a memo to all our retailers and they'll be able to start placing orders.

We also will be making custom CNC'd centering rings so that you'll also be able to fit any of our regular fit wheels that use rings. These will have the same step machined into them so that no additional mods or spacers will be required, just plug & play.

Once the memo's out you'll be able to contact any one of retailers though our Dealer locator on the websites and get quotes on whichever style/size you like. Unfortunately the online ordering system they use to look up the applications might not get "synched" for another week beyond that due to some IT delays. But the memo will show which part numbers work and will help expedite things when they call in. I'll post it here too when it's ready.

www.fastwheels.ca
www.braelin.ca

Note I didn't post www.replika.ca up there because unfortunately the Replika R187 does NOT clear the PUO rear caliper. But we'll surely be developing something in an OE inspired design that does


----------



## Jon S

Mad Hungarian said:


> We also will be making custom CNC'd centering rings so that you'll also be able to fit any of our regular fit wheels that use rings. These will have the same step machined into them so that no additional mods or spacers will be required, just plug & play.


Any idea why the P3D+ has this extra step requirement for it's rims in the first place? If we can just add a centre rings what's the point?


----------



## garsh

Jon S said:


> Any idea why the P3D+ has this extra step requirement for it's rims in the first place?


Our best guess is that they are using the same hubs for all cars, and those hubs were designed for the standard steel rotors. The Performance Upgrade rotors have a thinner hat, and that causes this little extra "step" to appear above the rotor hat.


> If we can just add a centre rings what's the point?


You can only add center rings to wheels that have a larger hub bore opening. And then you have to deal with the centering rings any time you mount or unmount a wheel, which makes it a little more of a hassle than having a wheel that fits exactly.


----------



## Mad Hungarian

Jon S said:


> Any idea why the P3D+ has this extra step requirement for it's rims in the first place? If we can just add a centre rings what's the point?





garsh said:


> Our best guess is that they are using the same hubs for all cars, and those hubs were designed for the standard steel rotors. The Performance Upgrade rotors have a thinner hat, and that causes this little extra "step" to appear above the rotor hat.
> You can only add center rings to wheels that have a larger hub bore opening. And then you have to deal with the centering rings any time you mount or unmount a wheel, which makes it a little more of a hassle than having a wheel that fits exactly.


@garsh is correct, the rings only work with aftermarket wheels that have a larger "universal" fit bore designed to use them.


----------



## Mark Mcknigh

[COLOR=rgb(39, 38, 36)]@Mad Hungarian[/COLOR] I really like the look of the FC04 you used in your video and was wondering which part number would be best for the standard Aero wheel replacement. I would be mounting the the original tires. I see them available in 8" and 9" but the Aero's are 8.5"


----------



## Kbecks

@Mad Hungarian As someone with the Performance Package, have you learned any additional info about whether 18x10" or 19x9.5" will fit (front and rear)? I'm super curious and would love to get the FC04 in one of those sizes if possible in the next week or two.


----------



## garsh

Kbecks said:


> @Mad Hungarian As someone with the Performance Package, have you learned any additional info about whether 18x10" or 19x9.5" will fit (front and rear)? I'm super curious and would love to get the FC04 in one of those sizes if possible in the next week or two.


He has stated in the past that 9.5" is the widest that will fit in the front.


Mad Hungarian said:


> *Go Big or Go Home* - 9.5" wide fronts and 11.0" rears in 18" / 19" / 20" are NO problem, there is actually a little more room under there than a Model S.


----------



## Kbecks

garsh said:


> He has stated in the past that 9.5" is the widest that will fit in the front.


Hmm but i know that Sasha with @MountainPass said here that he was going to order 18x10s to go with some 275s all around. That would be my dream set-up if it would fit since you've got the lighter/cheaper 18" wheels and fat tires.

Otherwise i think the next best is the 19x9.5", however i know that @David Liguori reported some very minor rubbing on the fender on a bumpy road (with +35 offset), but not sure if that was with a Performance 3 or regular (since theres an extra 3mm depending on which one).

Need to get me some track shoes ASAP so i don't ruin my daily drivers cuz the PS4S really is soft on the edges!

PS - @garsh, i just saw the names of your cars and LOVE it


----------



## garsh

Kbecks said:


> Hmm but i know that Sasha with @MountainPass said here that he was going to order 18x10s to go with some 275s all around.


IIRC, that's for a track car, and it's going to stick out past the fenders a wee bit. If you want everything to stay tucked within the fenders, then I think 9.5" is the widest for the front.


> PS - @garsh, i just saw the names of your cars and LOVE it


----------



## Theos1

Just joined and find the winter tire discussion most interesting. "Mad Hungarian" provides very valuable info. Am considering to put Nokian Hakka 3 on my Model 3 LR RWD for now on the Aero's and get possibly the FAST FC04 rims later on. Is Nokian 225/45 R18 suitable for the standard Tesla 18" rim? @Mad Hungarian, would that be a good choice for Toronto area?
As I just joined, not sure if one can ask a direct question naming a tire shop for instance. If positive any recommendations for a Nokian dealer in the Oakville / Mississauga area? Any member's experience with Kal Tire, Stanfield Road, Mississauga or MTC Tire in Oakville?
I am not sure if I can ask a direct question RE: tire shop names.
I am not sure if I can ask a direct question RE: tire shop names.


----------



## David Liguori

Kbecks said:


> Hmm but i know that Sasha with @MountainPass said here that he was going to order 18x10s to go with some 275s all around. That would be my dream set-up if it would fit since you've got the lighter/cheaper 18" wheels and fat tires.
> 
> Otherwise i think the next best is the 19x9.5", however i know that @David Liguori reported some very minor rubbing on the fender on a bumpy road (with +35 offset), but not sure if that was with a Performance 3 or regular (since theres an extra 3mm depending on which one).
> 
> Need to get me some track shoes ASAP so i don't ruin my daily drivers cuz the PS4S really is soft on the edges!
> 
> PS - @garsh, i just saw the names of your cars and LOVE it


Me again. To answer your question I've got the non-P AWD. It is just over two weeks now of hard driving (every chance I get) and I've only had the wheel contact the fender that one time. I am pretty much considering it a non-issue at this point. The front space is more or less maxed out, but still plenty of room in the rear if you wanted to go staggered. I am quite happy with my square set up although the one thing I still might do is add a 10-15mm spacer in the rear. For whatever reason they are set in further than the fronts. Not sure if anyone else (besides you guys!) notices, but I do.


----------



## PNWmisty

David Liguori said:


> For whatever reason they are set in further than the fronts. Not sure if anyone else (besides you guys!) notices, but I do.


Probably for aerodynamic reasons.


----------



## David Liguori

BTW, While the front tire is out as far as it can go there is still a bit of room on the inside. Going with a +40 offset looks like it would work and provide a bit more fender clearance. Seems to me the ideal square set up would be +40 fronts and +25-30 rear, that would even them out pretty good. I've got 19x9.5 +35 w 265/35/19 Mich Pilot Sport 4S. When the T-SportLIne AWD springs come out I will likely buy them and drop an inch, it really needs it. Here is my set up, w a chrome delete. I love the look and it handles like a dream
















And just for fun .....my newly installed spoiler!


----------



## MountainPass

Kbecks said:


> Hmm but i know that Sasha with @MountainPass said here that he was going to order 18x10s to go with some 275s all around. That would be my dream set-up if it would fit since you've got the lighter/cheaper 18" wheels and fat tires.
> 
> Otherwise i think the next best is the 19x9.5", however i know that @David Liguori reported some very minor rubbing on the fender on a bumpy road (with +35 offset), but not sure if that was with a Performance 3 or regular (since theres an extra 3mm depending on which one).
> 
> Need to get me some track shoes ASAP so i don't ruin my daily drivers cuz the PS4S really is soft on the edges!
> 
> PS - @garsh, i just saw the names of your cars and LOVE it


We are now running 19x10+35 all around and lowered on our Sports Coilovers. No rubbing even when driving very hard on the track! We would run 18's but they don't fit over our BBK.


----------



## Mad Hungarian

Kbecks said:


> @Mad Hungarian As someone with the Performance Package, have you learned any additional info about whether 18x10" or 19x9.5" will fit (front and rear)? I'm super curious and would love to get the FC04 in one of those sizes if possible in the next week or two.


You can go as wide as 9.5" in front and 11.0" in the rear without issue on any Model 3.
The only thing a bit weird about the PUO cars is that they have/need a 5mm lower offset than all other Model 3s due to those thinner rotors reducing the track width. Tesla compensated by just making the offset +35 on PUO cars instead of +40 like the others. This really only matters if your going for a max-width setup, as either offset will work on either version of the car when running OEM or close to OEM sizes.


----------



## Mad Hungarian

MountainPass said:


> We are now running 19x10+35 all around and lowered on our Sports Coilovers. No rubbing even when driving very hard on the track! We would run 18's but they don't fit over our BBK.


Nice!! I thought 10's up front might be cutting it a little close, glad to hear they're working for you!


----------



## Kbecks

Mad Hungarian said:


> The only thing a bit weird about the PUO cars is that they have/need a 5mm lower offset than all other Model 3s due to those thinner rotors reducing the track width. Tesla compensated by just making the offset +35 on PUO cars instead of +40 like the others. This really only matters if your going for a max-width setup, as either offset will work on either version of the car when running OEM or close to OEM sizes.


Yep and i know that Mountain Pass is running the 19x10 on a RWD Model 3, so if i tried to do the same on a PUO car then it would be 3mm closer to the suspension (and 3mm further from fender) compared to RWD.

If @MountainPass can comment on suspension clearance while running 19x10, i may just be crazy enough to order some 19x10's and give it a shot for track use


----------



## Mad Hungarian

Kbecks said:


> Yep and i know that Mountain Pass is running the 19x10 on a RWD Model 3, so if i tried to do the same on a PUO car then it would be 3mm closer to the suspension (and 3mm further from fender) compared to RWD.
> 
> If @MountainPass can comment on suspension clearance while running 19x10, i may just be crazy enough to order some 19x10's and give it a shot for track use


Correct, but the difference is actually 5mm.
@MountainPass can you comment as to what offset you're running the 19x10's at?


----------



## Mad Hungarian

Theos1 said:


> Just joined and find the winter tire discussion most interesting. "Mad Hungarian" provides very valuable info. Am considering to put Nokian Hakka 3 on my Model 3 LR RWD for now on the Aero's and get possibly the FAST FC04 rims later on. Is Nokian 225/45 R18 suitable for the standard Tesla 18" rim? @Mad Hungarian, would that be a good choice for Toronto area?
> As I just joined, not sure if one can ask a direct question naming a tire shop for instance. If positive any recommendations for a Nokian dealer in the Oakville / Mississauga area? Any member's experience with Kal Tire, Stanfield Road, Mississauga or MTC Tire in Oakville?
> I am not sure if I can ask a direct question RE: tire shop names.
> I am not sure if I can ask a direct question RE: tire shop names.


225/45R18 does work on the OE wheel, as its Permissible Rim Width Range is 7.0" to 8.5".
As for the shops, I'll let the GTA folks chime in with their thoughts/preferences.


----------



## Kbecks

Mad Hungarian said:


> Correct, but the difference is actually 5mm.
> @MountainPass can you comment as to what offset you're running the 19x10's at?


MP is running the +35s per the earlier post. Also, i know the difference between PUO and RWD _*wheels*_ is 5mm, but i thought the lip on the rotor itself was only 3mm?

My plan is to get the wheel counter-bored if possible such that they would sit flush on the rotor and would therefore move 3mm inboard (assuming the lip is actually 3mm).

Really appreciate this discussion, super helpful for us early adopters!


----------



## Zippy_EV

MountainPass said:


> We are now running 19x10+35 all around and lowered on our Sports Coilovers. No rubbing even when driving very hard on the track! We would run 18's but they don't fit over our BBK.


@MountainPass , are you running RE-71R tires on a PUO car?


----------



## MountainPass

Correct, we've run both of these sizes in the front:

19x10 +35, 275/35/19 RE71R
19x9 +25, 245/40/19 RE71R

Confirm no rubbing what-so-ever with either size, at full lock and while on track. 

275's all around is the hot setup.


----------



## MountainPass

Mad Hungarian said:


> Correct, but the difference is actually 5mm.
> @MountainPass can you comment as to what offset you're running the 19x10's at?


Forgive me if I'm confused - other than the rotor thickness difference, where does the rest of the 5mm come from? I don't imagine the rotor hat is 5mm thinner on the PUP brakes is it? (we haven't measured yet)


----------



## Love

Thank you to you all for the knowledgeable and friendly posts. Appreciate all your helpful advice and opinions.

@Mad Hungarian 
@JeffC 
@MountainPass 
@any others that I missed as I skimmed this thread

Edit: I took out the negative and left the positive. We need more positive in the world!


----------



## Zippy_EV

I tried the stock PUO tires (Pilot Sport 4S in 235/35R20) at the track last weekend. They were actually really nice predictable tires. Yes, they got a little greasy towards the end of 20-30 minute sessions but only when I was testing by overdriving the tires more than I usually would. Certainly overall the feedback and progressive slip when pushed was excellent - nobody would find the tires to be an impediment to fun. If the other people weren't on track going faster in their Porsches and BMWs with better tires (r-compounds, RE-71R, and others I don't recall) I would have no complaints. 

I should collect my thoughts and do a quick write-up on the experience.

@Mad Hungarian, I also thought the rotor hat difference was 3mm yet the wheel offset was 5mm leading to a 2mm difference in scrub radius PUO vs non-PUO. Is this incorrect?


----------



## Kbecks

Zippy_EV said:


> @Mad Hungarian, I also thought the rotor hat difference was 3mm yet the wheel offset was 5mm leading to a 2mm difference in scrub radius PUO vs non-PUO. Is this incorrect?


While i agree (think) the difference in rotor thickness is 3mm, i don't think we can conclude that this directly translates to a 2mm difference in scrub radius. It's possible that the PUO and non-PUO have different steering axis positions that we are unaware of.


----------



## Theos1

Mad Hungarian said:


> 225/45R18 does work on the OE wheel, as its Permissible Rim Width Range is 7.0" to 8.5".
> As for the shops, I'll let the GTA folks chime in with their thoughts/preferences.


Thank you, most appreciated @Mad Hungarian. I was told that for a winter tire (Hakka R3 specifically) for the Model 3 the 225/45 18 configuration is better than the Tesla's selection of 235/45 18. Would you agree or should I stick with the 235?


----------



## Mad Hungarian

MountainPass said:


> Forgive me if I'm confused - other than the rotor thickness difference, where does the rest of the 5mm come from? I don't imagine the rotor hat is 5mm thinner on the PUP brakes is it? (we haven't measured yet)


Believe it or not it is!


----------



## Mad Hungarian

MountainPass said:


> Forgive me if I'm confused - other than the rotor thickness difference, where does the rest of the 5mm come from? I don't imagine the rotor hat is 5mm thinner on the PUP brakes is it? (we haven't measured yet)


For confirmation, we measure the stud length on the base car at 26 mm and the PUO car at 31 mm.
Futhermore we can obtain this measurement directly from the differences between the two rotor hats as they meet the hub "step".
In the image on the left, the base car's rotor hat surface sits approximately 2.6 mm above the step.
In the image on the right, the PUO car's rotor hat sits approximately 2.4 mm below the step.


----------



## MountainPass

Wow. No wonder our 365mm rotor, with bracket and extra hardware is still 2.5lbs lighter per side compared to the 320mm rotor!

Thanks for checking this Ian! 

Of course, a wheel spacer is an easy fix since the thinner hat = more available stud and hub bore for centering. 

Also, our replacement Performance rotors will naturally have a thicker hat as they will be aluminum, so this will also take care of this issue. They will be available in December or so.


----------



## Zippy_EV

Kbecks said:


> While i agree (think) the difference in rotor thickness is 3mm, i don't think we can conclude that this directly translates to a 2mm difference in scrub radius. It's possible that the PUO and non-PUO have different steering axis positions that we are unaware of.


Thanks for the explanation @Mad Hungarian. I have a better understanding of the 3mm lip so now +35 is less of an odd choice for the offset on the performance model (earlier I wondered why they didn't make the offset +37mm.) I'll be quite surprised if the performance and non-performance models have a different scrub radius with their respective stock wheels.

@Mad Hungarian, in your experience would 2mm lateral clearance between the caliper and the wheel spokes cause concern for you for street and track usage. (The Titan 7 forged wheels in the group buy reportedly have this clearance from the PUO brake calipers.)


----------



## Mad Hungarian

Zippy_EV said:


> Thanks for the explanation @Mad Hungarian. I have a better understanding of the 3mm lip so now +35 is less of an odd choice for the offset on the performance model (earlier I wondered why they didn't make the offset +37mm.) I'll be quite surprised if the performance and non-performance models have a different scrub radius with their respective stock wheels.
> 
> @Mad Hungarian, in your experience would 2mm lateral clearance between the caliper and the wheel spokes cause concern for you for street and track usage. (The Titan 7 forged wheels in the group buy reportedly have this clearance from the PUO brake calipers.)


Glad to shed light 

Actually 2.0 mm is our in-house minimum clearance number for X-factor (the term used to describe horizontal caliper-to-spoke space). Although that sounds mighty close, we've frequently seen that same tolerance on high performance OE setups.
When dealing with a fixed monobloc caliper like the Model 3 has up front it's even less of a worry as the caliper never moves in relation to the wheel, unlike the more common "floating" calipers where we have to be sure we measure them at near full outward travel so as not to get any nasty surprises when the brakes are serviced/replaced with parts that may have different tolerances.


----------



## Kbecks

Does anyone have any info on what the actual scrub radius is when stock? I'd love to know how we're changing it with various wheels/offsets.


----------



## Ianlf10

Mad Hungarian said:


> *Tesla TPMS Relearn Procedure*
> 
> 1. Ensure all tires are inflated to placard pressure
> 2. Get in car, making sure all doors and the trunk are closed
> 3. Turn vehicle on
> 4. On center screen select "Controls"
> 5. Select "Settings"
> 6. Select "Service and Reset"
> 7. Select "Tire Pressure Monitor"
> 8. Select "Reset Sensors"
> 9. Select the tire size
> 10. Drive for at least 10 minutes above 20 mph so vehicle can learn the new sensor ID numbers, or if this is after a rotation, learn where the old ones are now repositioned
> 
> I should note that after we switched from the 19" OE to the 18" winter setup on the Model 3 we couldn't get past Step 7 until we started driving the car. About 5 minutes it suddenly popped the Tire Size selection display onto the screen, and when we selected 18" it confirmed all was good and began displaying pressures immediately. Not sure if any of the S or X owners have ever experienced that. But it was still easy as pie compared to some of the other systems out there and makes it simple for owners to do their own rotations and summer/winter swaps.


Correct me if I'm wrong however it appears that the TPMS reset feature is no longer available in the menus. Do we have to call Tesla now?


----------



## garsh

Ianlf10 said:


> Correct me if I'm wrong however it appears that the TPMS reset feature is no longer available in the menus. Do we have to call Tesla now?


I think you just start driving. Eventually, the car recognizes the new TPMS sensors on its own, and pops up a window asking you to select the wheel size (18", 19" or 20"). Then you're done.


----------



## Guest

MountainPass said:


> Wow. No wonder our 365mm rotor, with bracket and extra hardware is still 2.5lbs lighter per side compared to the 320mm rotor!
> 
> Thanks for checking this Ian!
> 
> Of course, a wheel spacer is an easy fix since the thinner hat = more available stud and hub bore for centering.
> 
> Also, our replacement Performance rotors will naturally have a thicker hat as they will be aluminum, so this will also take care of this issue. They will be available in December or so.


Any pics? Can you share what these may look like?


----------



## Mad Hungarian

Ianlf10 said:


> Correct me if I'm wrong however it appears that the TPMS reset feature is no longer available in the menus. Do we have to call Tesla now?


Just went outside and had a look and... you're right!
Looks like the manual Reset is gone as of V9. It may not have even been there in the last versions of V8, because when I installed my new set I actually wanted to see what would happen if I just drove away, and sure enough the Pop-Up appeared just appeared on its after about 15 minutes of driving, no intervention required. I'll edit the TPMS post.

Of note, the pop-up asked whether I had 18", 19" or 20" installed, which I thought interesting since it's a PUO car and Tesla has no 18" that work on it. A happy bug that I hope they don't fix though for all of us running aftermarket 18's .


----------



## Munch

If I put new tires on the existing rims using the existing TPMS, will the TPMS be able to detect that I have new tires on?


----------



## garsh

Munch said:


> If I put new tires on the existing rims using the existing TPMS, will the TPMS be able to detect that I have new tires on?


TPMS sensors only measure air pressure.

The car will detect if you have new TPMS sensors. It's unclear if the car will detect new tires.


----------



## JimmT

I just swapped my 18 Aeros for 19 Sport wheels. The Sport wheels didn’t come with TPMS, so the tire shop moved the TPMS from my 18” Aeros. I’m seeing the psi for all four wheels and I think everything is working.

Question for the forum: I never saw the pop up asking about wheel size and the tire shop said they couldn’t figure out how to reset the TPMS. I have a service appointment with Tesla to change my avatar but should I also ask them to reset my TPMS to reflect the new wheels?


----------



## beastmode13

JimmT said:


> I just swapped my 18 Aeros for 19 Sport wheels. The Sport wheels didn't come with TPMS, so the tire shop moved the TPMS from my 18" Aeros. I'm seeing the psi for all four wheels and I think everything is working.
> 
> Question for the forum: I never saw the pop up asking about wheel size and the tire shop said they couldn't figure out how to reset the TPMS. I have a service appointment with Tesla to change my avatar but should I also ask them to reset my TPMS to reflect the new wheels?


TPMS senses tire pressure not new wheel or tires. Since you are reusing the stock TPMS the car will only assume it's the same setup. There isn't anything you need to reset. Reset is only required for new TPMS sensors to pair the new sensors with the car.

You can confirm TPMS is working by changing the tire pressure, drive around then watch the pressure change on the tire pressure card on screen.


----------



## JimmT

Yep, they’re working then. When I got in the car after the wheels were swapped, the psi was at 37. I went back to the shop and they increased it to 42, which is what they’re showing now. Thanks for the reply!


----------



## rlb4

Will +1/+3 lbs per tire make a noticeable difference in acceleration and range? Thinking of getting Michelin PS A/S 3+ in 245/45 18(28 lbs ea.) vs 235/45 18(26 lbs ea.) Stock 18" Primacy are 25 lbs ea.


----------



## beastmode13

rlb4 said:


> Will +1/+3 lbs per tire make a noticeable difference in acceleration and range? Thinking of getting Michelin PS A/S 3+ in 245/45 18(28 lbs ea.) vs 235/45 18(26 lbs ea.) Stock 18" Primacy are 25 lbs ea.


245 have bigger contact patch that in theory would provide additional traction compare to 235.


----------



## TheMagician

Mad Hungarian. As a retired tactical driving instructor (we taught PIT, ramming and just for fun, reverse 180's (J-turns), just wanted to say that you give great advice and make it simple to understand. I routinely used to advise people to add 5 psi to the placard pressure because most manufacturers err on the side of a soft ride instead of what's good for the tire (I used to be friends with several tire engineers and got the inside scoop on the Firestone debacle (was probably more Fords fault than Firestone).

Since I got into the world of EV's back in 2011 with a Leaf my brother purchased but I mostly drove (company car), manufacturers routinely spec higher PSI for EV's than they do for their ICE cars. The Model 3 will be the first vehicle in a very long time that I'll run at the recommended placard pressure.

Anyway, just wanted to say I just found this thread and will probably spend the rest of the night reading the other posts. Find this thread very informative, keep up the good work.



Mad Hungarian said:


> In (sort of) order:
> 
> Volt pressures: Odd that the mechanics were setting pressures to 32 PSI, my data shows the 2011's were listed at 35 PSI and as of 2012 they went up to 38 PSI (which indeed is what's shown on the placard of my 2013).
> 
> "Do not inflate over 40 lbs": Is a warning that applies only during the beading step of the tire mounting procedure, if you look closely you should see additional notes there that indicate this. This tire's actual maximum cold operating pressure is 50 PSI. Correct cold inflation for the both the 18" and 19" sizes on the 3 is 42 PSI (note this has been revised down for the 18", was listed at 45 PSI for very early build cars).
> 
> Under inflating: Can cause multiple issues, but this depends on a LOT of variables. We must first understand that every tire has a Maximum Load Capacity that will be determined by its Load Index number (the two or three digit number usually listed right before the speed rating). In North America we get the benefit of the maximum load weight actually being written directly in lbs and kg on the sidewall as well, usually in very fine print near the maximum inflation information, like so:
> View attachment 11096
> 
> 
> In the case of your OE Michelins this marking is a bit deceiving, because although the marking shows that the tire can carry a maximum load of 1653 lbs at a maximum pressure of 50 PSI, because the tire belongs to the "XL" or Extra Load category it actually reaches its maximum load carrying capability at 42 PSI. You can keep adding air to change the handling / wear / range properties, as we saw Tesla initially do for this car, right up to 50 PSI but it won't carry any more weight than if you set it to 42.
> Now that we understand that, once we start _dropping_ the pressure under 42 PSI we also have to understand that we will start dropping the tire's load capacity. In this case if we were to drop the pressure to say 38 PSI, the load/inflation table for a 98 XL tire says it would only be able to safely support 1522 lbs.
> Is that a problem?
> That depends. The most critical reference point is the car's Gross Axle Weight Ratings, or GAWR for short. This can usually be found on the manufacturer's federal compliance placard on the door jamb. Here's one for the 3LR with 19":
> View attachment 11097
> 
> 
> As we can see the heaviest axle rating is the rear one at 2771 lbs. Which means that each tire and wheel must be capable at bare minimum of supporting 1385.5 lbs. So if we were to drop the inflation to 38 PSI, we would still have a nice comfy excess capacity of 136.5 lbs.
> Now the question becomes how low can you go before it IS a problem? According to the load/inflation tables that will happen if we go below 34 PSI, where the load capacity is down to 1389 lbs. Take any more out and you're now a test pilot, circa 1953.
> Many people ask why is it that car manufacturers often set pressures so much higher than is required for the GAWR of the vehicle, as we see here? The most common are handling, wear, high-speed endurance/safety margin, fuel economy/range, but probably the most important of all is what I call owner-neglect insurance. Even those of us who work in the biz don't check pressures as often as we should, and prior to TPMS being around to save our bacon that could result in some really bad things happening on a regular basis if you didn't plug in a good 10% to 30% margin into the recommended pressures so that when they inevitably got neglected and lost that much pressure they'd still be able to carry the max axle load safely.
> 
> Center of the tire tread wearing out prematurely: That is often a side-effect of having the pressure set really high over the ideal for the weight of the vehicle. With the vast majority of cars and light trucks out there having a recommended pressure that's around 1.1 to 1.3 times the minimum load capacity required if this were a really sensitive issue we'd see tons of center-worn tires, which doesn't seem to be the case. Not in my 30 years of seeing such things anyway, I more often see the opposite problem of the edges being worn from under-inflation neglect. Now if you go high enough on a tire with a lot of excess capacity on light enough car you will definitely see it happen. But in the case of Model 3, the 42 PSI recommendation gives a a calculated load capacity that is only 1.2 times the minimum the car requires for the rear axle, so it actually falls right in line with most other cars and that really shouldn't cause any serious wear concerns.
> 
> TPMS sensors: Try looking around for the Schrader EZ-sensor, a reasonably priced OE quality universal unit that can be programmed to work on a wide variety of cars including all 2014+ Teslas. Part number with rubber stem is 33500, with alumimum stem is 33700. Only caveat is that you will need the shop that sells them to you to initially "configure" them for Tesla with a TPMS service tool. Once that's done you can program them yourself to the car exactly as you would the OE units (see the first page of this thread).


----------



## Mad Hungarian

TheMagician said:


> Mad Hungarian. As a retired tactical driving instructor (we taught PIT, ramming and just for fun, reverse 180's (J-turns), just wanted to say that you give great advice and make it simple to understand. I routinely used to advise people to add 5 psi to the placard pressure because most manufacturers err on the side of a soft ride instead of what's good for the tire (I used to be friends with several tire engineers and got the inside scoop on the Firestone debacle (was probably more Fords fault than Firestone).
> 
> Since I got into the world of EV's back in 2011 with a Leaf my brother purchased but I mostly drove (company car), manufacturers routinely spec higher PSI for EV's than they do for their ICE cars. The Model 3 will be the first vehicle in a very long time that I'll run at the recommended placard pressure.
> 
> Anyway, just wanted to say I just found this thread and will probably spend the rest of the night reading the other posts. Find this thread very informative, keep up the good work.


Thanks so much, coming from someone with that skill set I consider this high praise indeed.


----------



## Mad Hungarian

rlb4 said:


> Will +1/+3 lbs per tire make a noticeable difference in acceleration and range? Thinking of getting Michelin PS A/S 3+ in 245/45 18(28 lbs ea.) vs 235/45 18(26 lbs ea.) Stock 18" Primacy are 25 lbs ea.


I wouldn't lose too much sleep over adding 3 lbs, I suspect that the slighter higher rolling resistance of the PS plus the aero drag of the additional 10mm width will have more of an effect. I still think you'd see only a few percentage points loss though.


----------



## MMouse

Service swapped out one of the tires with a new one, and after driving about 15 miles, instead of a pop-up asking for size selection, I get an error that says to contact service about the tire pressure system. Service said to drive around some more, but that doesn't seem to help. Anything I can do to get the new tire 'talking' to the system?


----------



## Mad Hungarian

MMouse said:


> Service swapped out one of the tires with a new one, and after driving about 15 miles, instead of a pop-up asking for size selection, I get an error that says to contact service about the tire pressure system. Service said to drive around some more, but that doesn't seem to help. Anything I can do to get the new tire 'talking' to the system?


What do you see on the TPMS screen?


----------



## MMouse

Mad Hungarian said:


> What do you see on the TPMS screen?


I see the other three tires with normal tire pressure (42-43 psi), and the new one with " -- psi "


----------



## Mad Hungarian

Any luck? Or is it still not reading it?

If so, and if the only thing they did was change the tire re-install the wheel back in its original position, then there's no reason the car should have even known the wheel was touched.
I can only suspect they may have damaged that sensor when they removed or installed the tire.


----------



## Randy

MMouse said:


> I see the other three tires with normal tire pressure (42-43 psi), and the new one with " -- psi "


I just replaced my all seasons with winter tires on Tuesday this past week and three of the four sensors worked within 30 km of the install. The fourth sensor did not reset until the next day and 100 km later
Maybe your car just needs to cycle a few shut downs to synchronize the final sensor (it was 4 shut down cycles for mine to reset)
Good luck


----------



## TheMagician

Okay guys. Screwed up and need your help. Pulled the stock 19" wheels off to get them powder coated gloss black (at the shop now). Needed black lug nuts so called McGard and they specifically asked if I was using OEM rims and said I needed #64022. Well, they're not even close. Yes, it technically screws on the stud but the face isn't deep or wide enough.

Can anyone tell me if McGard makes the correct black lug nut or even one of the other manufacturers. Thanks in advance.


----------



## CHous

Yesterday, I had my Tirerack ordered 19 in. snows/wheels installed on my M3P. After driving 30 miles or so, 3 tires registered psi. I did not receive a message to chose a wheel size. After another 10 miles or so the warning to have my TPMS serviced popped up. I called Tirerack and they said to deflate by 10 lbs and then reinflate the affected tire. After driving about 80 mikes there was no change. I tried the deflate/reinflate method again today, with no change. I am going to call Tirerack and the installer tomorrow. Any ideas or suggestions?


----------



## MMouse

Mad Hungarian said:


> Any luck? Or is it still not reading it?
> 
> If so, and if the only thing they did was change the tire re-install the wheel back in its original position, then there's no reason the car should have even known the wheel was touched.
> I can only suspect they may have damaged that sensor when they removed or installed the tire.


No luck yet. They replaced the whole tire with a new one. I've driven about 90 mi since, in at least a dozen trips.


----------



## Mad Hungarian

MMouse said:


> No luck yet. They replaced the whole tire with a new one. I've driven about 90 mi since, in at least a dozen trips.


When you say "the whole tire", do you mean you got both a new tire AND wheel? If so it's possible they gave you a new sensor as well. That would at least explain why that one isn't showing up, although after nearly 100 miles it should have.


----------



## MMouse

Mad Hungarian said:


> When you say "the whole tire", do you mean you got both a new tire AND wheel? If so it's possible they gave you a new sensor as well. That would at least explain why that one isn't showing up, although after nearly 100 miles it should have.


Yes. Whole tire and whole wheel. Supposedly, though, it should sync automatically. I wasn't sure if anyone here was familiar with this 'new sensor sync' process and could give any advice. I agree that 100-ish miles sounds sufficient for waking it up and adding it to the system.


----------



## Mad Hungarian

MMouse said:


> Yes. Whole tire and whole wheel. Supposedly, though, it should sync automatically. I wasn't sure if anyone here was familiar with this 'new sensor sync' process and could give any advice. I agree that 100-ish miles sounds sufficient for waking it up and adding it to the system.


Ahhh, now this is starting to make more sense. Earlier this year we were able to access the TPMS reset menu in the Service area but that seems to have disappeared with one of the updates. When you change the 4 wheels at once it now automatically gives you the popup to ask size and then becomes operational again within minutes of driving, but changing just one sensor seems to throw it for a loop. Clearly a bug that needs to be fixed, best to stay in touch with Service on that one and I'd do a voice "bug report" from the car on it too, can't hurt.


----------



## CHous

CHous said:


> Yesterday, I had my Tirerack ordered 19 in. snows/wheels installed on my M3P. After driving 30 miles or so, 3 tires registered psi. I did not receive a message to chose a wheel size. After another 10 miles or so the warning to have my TPMS serviced popped up. I called Tirerack and they said to deflate by 10 lbs and then reinflate the affected tire. After driving about 80 mikes there was no change. I tried the deflate/reinflate method again today, with no change. I am going to call Tirerack and the installer tomorrow. Any ideas or suggestions?


To follow up on my earlier post, this morning my car now shows a different wheel not reading. Now the left rear is reading psi, when it didn't previously, and the right rear isn't, when it previously did. Clearly not a broken or malfunctioning sensor issue. I haven't called Tirerack, as I don't think this is an issue with them. Any thoughts as to next steps? Just keep driving and hope the car eventually sorts this out? Also, as previously noted, I never received a pop up asking me to select a wheel size, which I have read from other posts appears to be what is supposed to have happened. Is that possibly the crux of the problem? Perhaps I need to call Tesla, but I understand they don't deal with issues that may be caused by aftermarket issues.


----------



## TheMagician

CHous said:


> To follow up on my earlier post, this morning my car now shows a different wheel not reading. Now the left rear is reading psi, when it didn't previously, and the right rear isn't, when it previously did. Clearly not a broken or malfunctioning sensor issue. I haven't called Tirerack, as I don't think this is an issue with them. Any thoughts as to next steps? Just keep driving and hope the car eventually sorts this out? Also, as previously noted, I never received a pop up asking me to select a wheel size, which I have read from other posts appears to be what is supposed to have happened. Is that possibly the crux of the problem? Perhaps I need to call Tesla, but I understand they don't deal with issues that may be caused by aftermarket issues.


Don't know if you have Discount Tire in your area but I've taken both my Leafs for them to sort out the sensors. They have a tool that "talks" to the sensors and captures their ID number which is then plugged into the OBD port. Takes all of 10 minutes and best part, totally free. If nothing else, they can confirm that all 4 sensors are working properly.


----------



## Mad Hungarian

CHous said:


> To follow up on my earlier post, this morning my car now shows a different wheel not reading. Now the left rear is reading psi, when it didn't previously, and the right rear isn't, when it previously did. Clearly not a broken or malfunctioning sensor issue. I haven't called Tirerack, as I don't think this is an issue with them. Any thoughts as to next steps? Just keep driving and hope the car eventually sorts this out? Also, as previously noted, I never received a pop up asking me to select a wheel size, which I have read from other posts appears to be what is supposed to have happened. Is that possibly the crux of the problem? Perhaps I need to call Tesla, but I understand they don't deal with issues that may be caused by aftermarket issues.


Do you have a part number and/or description for the TPMS sensors on your invoice from Tire Rack? It would be helpful to know the manufacturer and type, many of the "universal" ones need to be pre-configured for the make/model of vehicle before they can be programmed to a specific car and we sometimes find that step has been skipped, resulting in the problem you're now experiencing.

Tire Rack also has a wide network of partner installation shops across the country, maybe they can suggest one in your area to visit to get the sensors scanned as @TheMagician suggested.


----------



## CHous

Mad Hungarian said:


> Do you have a part number and/or description for the TPMS sensors on your invoice from Tire Rack? It would be helpful to know the manufacturer and type, many of the "universal" ones need to be pre-configured for the make/model of vehicle before they can be programmed to a specific car and we sometimes find that step has been skipped, resulting in the problem you're now experiencing.
> 
> Tire Rack also has a wide network of partner installation shops across the country, maybe they can suggest one in your area to visit to get the sensors scanned as @TheMagician suggested.


The sensors are Continental 433MHZ Sensor 8NM (8NM=71IN.LB) Part No. S168 S180052068. The wheel sets were installed by a Tire rack installation shop.


----------



## Mad Hungarian

CHous said:


> The sensors are Continental 433MHZ Sensor 8NM (8NM=71IN.LB) Part No. S168 S180052068. The wheel sets were installed by a Tire rack installation shop.


That looks to be the correct OEM VDO/Continental unit, so really not sure why they wouldn't work consistently. I'd be going back to the shop that installed them and getting them scanned to make sure they're all functioning properly and that the batteries are all in good shape (most pro scan tools can see sensor battery SOC).


----------



## CHous

Mad Hungarian said:


> That looks to be the correct OEM VDO/Continental unit, so really not sure why they wouldn't work consistently. I'd be going back to the shop that installed them and getting them scanned to make sure they're all functioning properly and that the batteries are all in good shape (most pro scan tools can see sensor battery SOC).


The installer claims not to have the Model 3 software loaded into their scanning tool. I spoke with Tesla and they say that I have to have a service center "calibrate" the sensors. That doesn't seem to make sense; however, this is also consistent with what I was told by Tire Rack - see the following email (Note that the instructions given are not consistent with the current Model 3 software version). Good grief - what a pain:

Hi Chris,

We need to confirm you are using the relearn procedure in the owner's manual;
We are finding that on many models, customers and installers have had to contact Tesla direct to put the vehicle into learn mode remotely. Below is what the process is supposed to be. But a lot of customers and installers couldn't find that option on either a model 3 or S depending on which Tesla software update was in place on the car . This is the downfall of vehicles with software updates, as menus change as do options, making it impossible to give a clear-cut process to the customer. If they can't get it into learn mode they may need to contact Tesla to have it done remotely...

1. Ensure all tires are inflated to placard pressure
2. Get in car, making sure all doors and the trunk are closed
3. Turn vehicle on
4. On center screen select "Controls"
5. Select "Settings"
6. Select "Service and Reset"
7. Select "Tire Pressure Monitor"
8. Select "Reset Sensors"
9. Select the tire size
10. Drive for at least 10 minutes above 20 mph so vehicle can learn the new sensor ID numbers, or if this is after a rotation, learn where the old ones are now repositioned

*Albert Kodba* | Customer Service Representative
__________________________________________________________

*Tire Rack*
7101 Vorden Parkway
South Bend, IN 46628
O: 888 981 3953 Ext. 4160
O: 574 287 2345 Ext. 4160
F: 574 236 7707
[email protected]

https://www.tirerack.com


----------



## PNWmisty

CHous said:


> (Note that the instructions given are not consistent with the current Model 3 software version).


Not only do the Tire Rack instructions direct you to use menu commands that are not in current Model 3 software, those menu commands have not been in ANY versions since our first delivery in mid-May!

Using my Sherlock Holmes like powers of deduction, I conclude that it is necessary to either communicate directly with the TPMS sensors using a professional type tool (not necessarily that expensive) or have Tesla initiate the "relearn" procedure remotely. That's assuming that airing the tires up/down and driving around doesn't do anything.


----------



## CHous

PNWmisty said:


> Not only do the Tire Rack instructions direct you to use menu commands that are not in current Model 3 software, those menu commands have not been in ANY versions since our first delivery in mid-May!
> 
> Using my Sherlock Holmes like powers of deduction, I conclude that it is necessary to either communicate directly with the TPMS sensors using a professional type tool (not necessarily that expensive) or have Tesla initiate the "relearn" procedure remotely. That's assuming that airing the tires up/down and driving around doesn't do anything.


Thanks. Tesla was able to remotely confirm a defective sensor and its location and Tire Rack is sending a replacement to the Tire Rack approved installer for installation. I was advised by Tesla that what I was told yesterday by a Tesla technician that they had to calebrate was incorrect. Once installed, the sensors should self calebrate. What a confusing few days with lots of contradictory information from both Tesla and Tire Rack. Hopefully, once the new sensor is installed all issues are resolved. I appreciate everyone's feedback from the forum.


----------



## Pescakl1

I have a strange situation in my hand, and I would need your advises as I do not understand fully.

Finally got my car back on Monday night. While the car was at the wrap shop, I went, picked up the tires, went to install winter tires on the aeros, and put the OEM all seasons tires on aftermarket for next summer.

So, Monday night, coming home, car was registering between 42 to 44 psi in the tires.
Tuesday was cold, pressure went down in the tires, got an alert for one wheel at 39, with the others between 40 and 42 psi.

So last night, I filled up the tires to 45 as soon as I got home (really cold tires and rims): I was surprised I had to put a lot of air in the tires (using the gauge on the compressor).

Leaving this morning, after two corners, the car registers pressure at around 62 psi in every tire!!
Go back home in the garage, take the gauge again (without the compressor), put my glass on this time (to be sure): my gauge still register 45 psi for every wheel.

The 7 km to work put the tire pressure to about 58-59 psi.

I used this gauge in the past and is pretty reliable for every car I serviced.

Could it be a problem with the TPMS (I need to check with the installer if they are the Tesla TPMS or the set of extra TPMS that I bought)?
Could it be that the TPMS are not programmed correctly (They read a pressure but do not correlate to the correct value)?

Any help would be appreciated...


----------



## Mesprit87

Sorry to skip subject but still wheel related.
Got my car monday and as any good mechanic started to tear it apart.
I was curious about the torque setting on the wheel nuts when I removed the wheels for the installation of my winter tires, it seemed low by feel so I got the torque wrench out to remove the other nuts. Setting it at 90 ft-lb for a start and moving my way down until it clicks just as the nut is turning, well I got down to a steady 72 ft-lb on all nuts. Now I hear you already saying my TW is out of calibration and it might be up to a point but I know I can feel the difference between 70 and 90 ft-lb as I use calibrated torque wrenches daily at work.

Any thoughts?


----------



## Pescakl1

My thoughts are that I should do the same as you and check them out as I believe most people do not know the torque value is higher on the Model 3 compare to other cars.

Is the correct torque 129 lb-ft, right?


----------



## Mesprit87

That's what @Mad Hungarian specified on the first post.
The studs seem sturdier than what I'm used to so 129 ft-lb makes sens.


----------



## Mad Hungarian

Mesprit87 said:


> That's what @Mad Hungarian specified on the first post.
> The studs seem sturdier than what I'm used to so 129 ft-lb makes sens.


Yep, can 100% confirm that 129 ft/lbs is the correct lug torque value for all Model S/3/X.
And that's not unusually high these days, Ford is now specifying over 160 ft/lbs on some of their 14 mm stud vehicles. Better eat your Wheaties before trying to change a flat on one of those babies!


----------



## lascavarian

Mad Hungarian said:


> Yep, can 100% confirm that 129 ft/lbs is the correct lug torque value for all Model S/3/X.


Yep, just went through this yesterday with CostCo. They were stuck since they would not install my snows without the torque spec and their data files did not include the model 3 yet. Calling Tesla was a 20 minute wait time so not so great and I could not find it in the manual nor on the door sticker. Finally took a chance and texted a Tesla Ranger who had left me a number to confirm a question I had asked. He texted back immediately 175 Newton meters which is 129 Foot Lbs - tires installed!


----------



## Pescakl1

@Mad Hungarian , any ideas on these faulty TPMS (I checked with another gauge yesterday night, and it read 45 psi too), so the TPMS read 15 psi more than real.

Do I need to replace the TPMS, or can they be reprogrammed or recalibrated?


----------



## Mad Hungarian

Pescakl1 said:


> @Mad Hungarian , any ideas on these faulty TPMS (I checked with another gauge yesterday night, and it read 45 psi too), so the TPMS read 15 psi more than real.
> 
> Do I need to replace the TPMS, or can they be reprogrammed or recalibrated?


Sensors normally cannot be recalibrated, but before jumping to conclusions I'd try measuring the pressures with at least one or two more gauges to be sure. The way you describe how long it took to add the air tells me there's a good chance you really did pump them up to 60-ish PSI.


----------



## Pescakl1

From the two gauges I used already (gauges that I used on other cars previously), I pumped the tires from about 25-30 psi up to 45 psi: it took about the same time (more or less) than when I pump the stored tires before mounting them.

It is quite strange that two gauges that worked perfectly for years, decided to go wrong at the same time, as soon as I got my Tesla...

I will go to CanadianTire and buy another one to triple check.

In the meantime, I will open a case with Tesla, as it may take a while for them to answer.

What should I do in the meantime? Decrease the pressure to 45 psi (Tesla) = 30 psi (gauge) or put the pressure mid way (like 35 psi gauge = 50 psi (Tesla))?


----------



## Mad Hungarian

Pescakl1 said:


> From the two gauges I used already (gauges that I used on other cars previously), I pumped the tires from about 25-30 psi up to 45 psi: it took about the same time (more or less) than when I pump the stored tires before mounting them.
> 
> It is quite strange that two gauges that worked perfectly for years, decided to go wrong at the same time, as soon as I got my Tesla...
> 
> I will go to CanadianTire and buy another one to triple check.
> 
> In the meantime, I will open a case with Tesla, as it may take a while for them to answer.
> 
> What should I do in the meantime? Decrease the pressure to 45 psi (Tesla) = 30 psi (gauge) or put the pressure mid way (like 35 psi gauge = 50 psi (Tesla))?


If you wind up with three different gauges that all agree, at least within 1-2 PSI, then I'd vote you set to correct pressure within the average of the gauges and contact Tesla Service to get the system checked out.


----------



## TheMagician

Pescakl1 said:


> From the two gauges I used already (gauges that I used on other cars previously), I pumped the tires from about 25-30 psi up to 45 psi: it took about the same time (more or less) than when I pump the stored tires before mounting them.
> 
> It is quite strange that two gauges that worked perfectly for years, decided to go wrong at the same time, as soon as I got my Tesla...
> 
> I will go to CanadianTire and buy another one to triple check.
> 
> In the meantime, I will open a case with Tesla, as it may take a while for them to answer.
> 
> What should I do in the meantime? Decrease the pressure to 45 psi (Tesla) = 30 psi (gauge) or put the pressure mid way (like 35 psi gauge = 50 psi (Tesla))?


That would drive me crazy until I knew what was going on 

Don't you have a Wal Mart or Home Depot you could swing by? I wouldn't spend much money on a gauge until I knew what was going on. Both stores sell the little pencil type gauges for as little as $2-$3. And they're more than accurate enough for what you're looking for.

I have 2 gauges that are in the $100 range that read 1 psi apart and have checked several of the pencil gauges against them. Never had one more than about 3 psi off and several have matched one of the two gauges exactly.


----------



## Pescakl1

To continue this nice story: Yes, I went in my account and sent a request on that subject.

In the meantime, I found that I had another gauge (on my tire repair kit) at home.

It gives me the exact same result as the Tesla TPMS, so now we have a tie 2-2 .

So, I tried again the other two gauges (one from the compressor, the other one from a foot bike pump), but they still read the same 15 psi lower reading (I basically have to set the pressure to 28 psi to get the 45 psi from the TPMS).

So, for now, I put them down to the TPMS value until I find a way to get a decider gauge.

To continue...


----------



## TheMagician

Pescakl1 said:


> To continue this nice story: Yes, I went in my account and sent a request on that subject.
> 
> In the meantime, I found that I had another gauge (on my tire repair kit) at home.
> 
> It gives me the exact same result as the Tesla TPMS, so now we have a tie 2-2 .
> 
> So, I tried again the other two gauges (one from the compressor, the other one from a foot bike pump), but they still read the same 15 psi lower reading (I basically have to set the pressure to 28 psi to get the 45 psi from the TPMS).
> 
> So, for now, I put them down to the TPMS value until I find a way to get a decider gauge.
> 
> To continue...


Ah, things are becoming clearer Pescakl1  Didn't catch that you are using the compressor for one of your gauges. If you're talking about the one bolted to your compressor they are notorious for being wrong. Mine reads 10-15 too high. And same thing with the bike foot pump, they are just a suggestion at best.

I will stake my reputation as a tire enthusiast (I supervised a tactical driving program for a gov't agency for 6 years) that your TPMS is giving you the correct readings (and please buy a gauge not bolted to something else if the one in the repair kit is not stand alone).


----------



## nobrien1

Mad Hungarian said:


> Sure!
> 
> First a nano-primer:
> 
> TPMS, or Tire Pressure Monitoring Systems, have been around since the 90's but only went mainstream in the mid 2000's when the U.S. regulatory agency NHTSA decided they should become mandatory. The E.U. has recently followed suit, but they are not obligatory elsewhere (yet) so not all markets have them as standard or even optional. This is particularly confusing in Canada, where some models otherwise identical to the U.S. version have, and others don't, largely depending on where they were built.
> 
> There are two main types:
> 
> *Direct: *In this system each wheel has an actual pressure sensor inside it, almost always attached to the backside of the air valve except for Ford, who for a while had the mounted in the drop well (that deep trench inside the wheel's barrel that allows the tires to be fitted) and strapped in there with a giant hose clamp. Direct systems can be very basic (light on if pressure drops on any tire) or fancy (real-time pressure display and temperature for each tire). With this system you need to have sensors in all your wheels, summer, winter, track, whatever, for it to work. The sensors also need to be programmed to the vehicle, otherwise you'd be getting random pressure info from everyone around you! This can be joyfully easy (Tesla, some Hondas and Chryslers) to insanely complex, requiring special tools, computers or visits to the dealer (these OEMs shall remain nameless. You know who you are).
> Aviso: In the U.S. you cannot knowingly disable the system without running afoul of the law, so good idea to make sure your new wheels have them. Not sure about E.U., and in Canada we can do whatever we want. Almost all cars can function perfectly well without the sensors, the TPMS warning light will then be on full time but it should be noted that on some models you may not be able to select some of the sportier Drive modes nor deactivate Traction or Stability controls. If you have an icy, uphill driveway, not being able to deactivate Traction Control can be a real bummer. You've been warned.
> 
> *Indirect: *A lovely and simple solution (thank you, nameless engineers) that uses the vehicle's existing hardware to figure out that a tire is losing pressure. This is done with the ABS sensors in each hub that monitor the speeds of each wheel. If one tire loses pressure it will get shorter as it goes flat, reducing its effective diameter, and basic math tells us it will have to spin faster to keep up with the other three. The computer can recognize that pattern and then set off a warning. Unfortunately the early systems had to have significant delays programmed into them so for it not to trigger every time you turned left or right, when the wheels will need to turn at different speeds. It also has a hard time with multiple simultaneous pressure losses, so most OEMs went with Direct where required. However some new versions with additional input for the more advanced sensors in the Stability Control system have allowed Indirect to function much more efficiently so it is slowly making a comeback.
> 
> Tesla uses the Direct system on all its models, the 3 included. The good news is since 2014 they essentially all use the same sensor, OE part number 1034602 and they all program the same way, no tools required, as follows:
> 
> *Tesla TPMS Relearn Procedure*
> 
> 1. Ensure all tires are inflated to placard pressure
> 2. Get in car, making sure all doors and the trunk are closed
> 3. Turn vehicle on
> 4. On center screen select "Controls"
> 5. Select "Settings"
> 6. Select "Service and Reset"
> 7. Select "Tire Pressure Monitor"
> 8. Select "Reset Sensors"
> 9. Select the tire size
> 10. Drive for at least 10 minutes above 20 mph so vehicle can learn the new sensor ID numbers, or if this is after a rotation, learn where the old ones are now repositioned
> 
> I should note that after we switched from the 19" OE to the 18" winter setup on the Model 3 we couldn't get past Step 7 until we started driving the car. About 5 minutes it suddenly popped the Tire Size selection display onto the screen, and when we selected 18" it confirmed all was good and began displaying pressures immediately. Not sure if any of the S or X owners have ever experienced that. But it was still easy as pie compared to some of the other systems out there and makes it simple for owners to do their own rotations and summer/winter swaps.
> 
> *EDIT 10/16/18:* It appears that for Model 3 as of V9 (or possibly even late V8) the TPMS reset function is no longer available in the Service menu.
> However the process is now even simpler, just install your new sensors, start driving and after 15 minutes or so you will get a pop-up asking you to select the wheel diameter installed. Select the correct size and you're done!


11/26/2018: Trying to get my new snows to synch up and found this thread. Does this have to be like 15 minutes of continuous driving on the highway? My snow were put on last Friday and I have driven more than 15 minutes since then but I haven't seen the message.


----------



## rlb4

Pescakl1 said:


> To continue this nice story: Yes, I went in my account and sent a request on that subject.
> 
> In the meantime, I found that I had another gauge (on my tire repair kit) at home.
> 
> It gives me the exact same result as the Tesla TPMS, so now we have a tie 2-2 .
> 
> So, I tried again the other two gauges (one from the compressor, the other one from a foot bike pump), but they still read the same 15 psi lower reading (I basically have to set the pressure to 28 psi to get the 45 psi from the TPMS).
> 
> So, for now, I put them down to the TPMS value until I find a way to get a decider gauge.
> 
> To continue...


Just get this:


----------



## Mad Hungarian

nobrien1 said:


> 11/26/2018: Trying to get my new snows to synch up and found this thread. Does this have to be like 15 minutes of continuous driving on the highway? My snow were put on last Friday and I have driven more than 15 minutes since then but I haven't seen the message.


Generally doesn't have to be 15 minutes of highway driving, I've had it pop up in city driving generally within just 5 - 10 minutes. However if you go for longer and still nothing happens you may have some other issue. Are you using OEM sensors or aftermarket?


----------



## TheMagician

Wanted to let those that are looking for quality black lug nuts that McGard #64034 fits really nice. They are 26mm wide vs. 27mm for the Tesla lug nut (at least on my 19" wheels). I originally purchased their standard width nuts which they said would fit but the cone face was way too small (20mm) so buy these "bulged" nuts. McGard was nice enough to send me a whole new set at no cost once I called them and told them of the problem. They also make these in a chrome finish.


----------



## Pescakl1

rlb4 said:


> Just get this:


Thanks for the suggestion.

I was going for one of them but reading the reviews, a lot of people complain that batteries die fast and basically, the gauge is down every time you need it.

So, I will probably aim more for an independent non powered gauge.


----------



## garsh

Pescakl1 said:


> I was going for one of them but reading the reviews, a lot of people complain that batteries die fast and basically, the gauge is down every time you need it.


Really?
I bought that exact one from Amazon back in 2009, and it's still working just fine on the original batteries.


----------



## rlb4

garsh said:


> Really?
> I bought that exact one from Amazon back in 2009, and it's still working just fine on the original batteries.


I have several and have not changed the battery in at least 10 yrs.


----------



## tkhan006

Hello everyone,

I am sorry for the dumb question, I am a newbie when it comes to changing things on my car....

I just got 20” wheels. They are offset 10.5 rear and 9 front. 

I have a LR M3. 

I am not sure if I should put 235 front and 275 rear tires? Or 245 front and 285 rear? 

I don’t even know if either of those choices make a difference? 

Again, sorry if this is a dumb question. 

Thank you in advance 🙏


----------



## Bigriver

There are already so many threads on wheels, that I hesitate to start a new one, but I have some basic wheel questions that, well, just seem too basic for most of the ongoing conversations. I have 18" aero wheels, covers removed, and winter tires mounted on them (Michelin X-Ice Xi3). All is well; I am currently a happy camper.

In the spring, I would like to get a new set of wheels for the 18" OEM all-season Michelins, leaving the winter tires on the aero wheels. I have never bought a separate set of rims, and really don't know what to look for, beyond how they look. Some specific questions I have are:

What is the offset? Actually, I can see the dimension that the offset represents, but I don't know why I would choose one offset vs another. When I do a TireRack search, for example, it gives me wheel options that are mostly 35, 38 and 40 mm offset.
How much do I care about weight of the wheel? I have tended to assume lighter is better, but with all things, I'm sure there are tradeoffs. Is there an ideal weight I should be striving for? BTW, I would choose better efficiency (lower Wh/mile) over a faster 0 to 60 mph time.
I know the model 3 is a heavier car than average, how concerned should I be with the strength of the wheel? Will the major tire/wheel vendors adequately account for this factor?
Are there going to be any issues/concerns with the TPMS sensors from any wheel vendors relative to the Tesla OEM sensors?
I think I want to reuse the 18" OEM Michelins because I have them, and because I like the smoother ride of the 18". So I have planned to buy the wheels to match the tires. I think this is probably a little twisted, as I plan for the wheels to last through many, many sets of tires. Would anyone suggest that I re-think this fundamental plan -- that there is some good reason to get different wheels that would not work with the 18" Michelins?


----------



## garsh

1. Wheel offset explained
2. Lighter is better, but can get expensive. Tires are lighter than wheels, so for less weight, it's usually best to go with a smaller diameter wheel and a taller tire.
3. Check with seller if the wheel is compatible with the car.
4. Tire shops will know which TPMS sensors will work with a Tesla.
5. I think that's a fine choice. There are plenty of good 18" wheels available. T-Sportline, GetYourWheels, and EV Tuning Solutions all sponsor this forum, and have wheels that will definitely work with a Model 3. FastWheels also has a good selection - I went with their 18" FC04 wheels for my winter tires.


----------



## Bigriver

Thanks @garsh. That link to explain offset is better than anything I had found. So with the aero wheels having a 40 mm offset, is that part of the reason they seem so prone to road rash? So a 35 mm offset would pull them in a wee bit. Does that have any notable, practical effect? I see where 5 mm could make a difference relative to a clearance, but not fully grasping if a difference of 5 mm in the offset is good, bad, or irrelevant.


----------



## PNWmisty

Bigriver said:


> Thanks @garsh. That link to explain offset is better than anything I had found. So with the aero wheels having a 40 mm offset, is that part of the reason they seem so prone to road rash? So a 35 mm offset would pull them in a wee bit. Does that have any notable, practical effect? I see where 5 mm could make a difference relative to a clearance, but not fully grasping if a difference of 5 mm in the offset is good, bad, or irrelevant.


The offset won't affect curb rash if the wheel rubs on the curb. I suppose that 5 mm might make a driver ever so slightly less likely to rub the curb but probably not much of a difference there.

You're not likely to notice a 5 mm difference in offset. But, lacking a concrete goal, I would try to stay close to the OEM offset because that is where the aerodynamic optimizations were done (as well as the suspension tuning). The placement of the wheel affects the effective spring rate of the suspension because it changes the length of the lever arm while leaving the spring in the same location. The magnitude of this effect with a 5 mm difference in offset will depend upon the geometry of the specific suspension in question. I haven't looked that closely at the Model 3 front and rear suspension to see how sensitive it would be to small changes in wheel offset.


----------



## garsh

Bigriver said:


> Thanks @garsh. That link to explain offset is better than anything I had found. So with the aero wheels having a 40 mm offset, is that part of the reason they seem so prone to road rash?


No, offset doesn't affect that at all.

The reason those wheels are prone to road rash is because of the size of tire mounted on them. If you take a close look, you'll see that the tire is a bit "stretched". The wheel actually sticks outward further than any part of the tire.










If you look at most other (non-performance-oriented) cars, you won't see this. Instead, you'll see a nice bulge of rubber around the outside, sticking out further than the wheel itself.










That bulge of rubber is what protects you from getting curb rash. You end up scraping the tire instead of the wheel. The downside of having a bulge is that cornering performance suffers. A tight, stretched tire fitment results in really quick, precise steering. The car immediately responds to steering inputs.  If you fit a wider tire with a bulge, then when you try to quickly change direction, you'll actually have a little bit of delay, and you can actually feel the tire bending from the forces. You can actually see tires bending in the image below.










For my winter setup, I actually purchased a narrow wheel (mine are 8" wide - OEM wheels are 8.5" wide) and mounted a slightly wider tire (245/45R18 - OEM tires are 235/45R18). This gives me just a little bit of tire bulge to help protect against curb rash. But I can definitely tell that turn-in suffers during spirited driving.


----------



## Bov

MountainPass said:


> Correct, we've run both of these sizes in the front:
> 
> 19x10 +35, 275/35/19 RE71R
> 19x9 +25, 245/40/19 RE71R
> 
> Confirm no rubbing what-so-ever with either size, at full lock and while on track.
> 
> 275's all around is the hot setup.


Do you change the car's computer to adjust speed and mileage for a new tire circumference?


----------



## MountainPass

Bov said:


> Do you change the car's computer to adjust speed and mileage for a new tire circumference?


When you initialize the new TPMS sensors it will prompt you asking what diameter the wheels are, select and drive! That's all you can do.


----------



## Bov

MountainPass said:


> When you initialize the new TPMS sensors it will prompt you asking what diameter the wheels are, select and drive! That's all you can do.


Thank you.


----------



## Bov

MountainPass said:


> When you initialize the new TPMS sensors it will prompt you asking what diameter the wheels are, select and drive! That's all you can do.


How many miles did you run 19x10 +35, 275/35/19 RE71R on the front axles for?


----------



## MountainPass

Bov said:


> How many miles did you run 19x10 +35, 275/35/19 RE71R on the front axles for?


That is our track day setup, so probably about 2000km so far. We love our Aero's for daily driving.


----------



## Bov

MountainPass said:


> That is our track day setup, so probably about 2000km so far. We love our Aero's for daily driving.


Thank you.


----------



## pumxee

Mad Hungarian said:


> Sure!
> 
> First a nano-primer:
> 
> TPMS, or Tire Pressure Monitoring Systems, have been around since the 90's but only went mainstream in the mid 2000's when the U.S. regulatory agency NHTSA decided they should become mandatory. The E.U. has recently followed suit, but they are not obligatory elsewhere (yet) so not all markets have them as standard or even optional. This is particularly confusing in Canada, where some models otherwise identical to the U.S. version have, and others don't, largely depending on where they were built.
> 
> There are two main types:
> 
> *Direct: *In this system each wheel has an actual pressure sensor inside it, almost always attached to the backside of the air valve except for Ford, who for a while had the mounted in the drop well (that deep trench inside the wheel's barrel that allows the tires to be fitted) and strapped in there with a giant hose clamp. Direct systems can be very basic (light on if pressure drops on any tire) or fancy (real-time pressure display and temperature for each tire). With this system you need to have sensors in all your wheels, summer, winter, track, whatever, for it to work. The sensors also need to be programmed to the vehicle, otherwise you'd be getting random pressure info from everyone around you! This can be joyfully easy (Tesla, some Hondas and Chryslers) to insanely complex, requiring special tools, computers or visits to the dealer (these OEMs shall remain nameless. You know who you are).
> Aviso: In the U.S. you cannot knowingly disable the system without running afoul of the law, so good idea to make sure your new wheels have them. Not sure about E.U., and in Canada we can do whatever we want. Almost all cars can function perfectly well without the sensors, the TPMS warning light will then be on full time but it should be noted that on some models you may not be able to select some of the sportier Drive modes nor deactivate Traction or Stability controls. If you have an icy, uphill driveway, not being able to deactivate Traction Control can be a real bummer. You've been warned.
> 
> *Indirect: *A lovely and simple solution (thank you, nameless engineers) that uses the vehicle's existing hardware to figure out that a tire is losing pressure. This is done with the ABS sensors in each hub that monitor the speeds of each wheel. If one tire loses pressure it will get shorter as it goes flat, reducing its effective diameter, and basic math tells us it will have to spin faster to keep up with the other three. The computer can recognize that pattern and then set off a warning. Unfortunately the early systems had to have significant delays programmed into them so for it not to trigger every time you turned left or right, when the wheels will need to turn at different speeds. It also has a hard time with multiple simultaneous pressure losses, so most OEMs went with Direct where required. However some new versions with additional input for the more advanced sensors in the Stability Control system have allowed Indirect to function much more efficiently so it is slowly making a comeback.
> 
> Tesla uses the Direct system on all its models, the 3 included. The good news is since 2014 they essentially all use the same sensor, OE part number 1034602 and they all program the same way, no tools required, as follows:
> 
> *Tesla TPMS Relearn Procedure*
> 
> 1. Ensure all tires are inflated to placard pressure
> 2. Get in car, making sure all doors and the trunk are closed
> 3. Turn vehicle on
> 4. On center screen select "Controls"
> 5. Select "Settings"
> 6. Select "Service and Reset"
> 7. Select "Tire Pressure Monitor"
> 8. Select "Reset Sensors"
> 9. Select the tire size
> 10. Drive for at least 10 minutes above 20 mph so vehicle can learn the new sensor ID numbers, or if this is after a rotation, learn where the old ones are now repositioned
> 
> I should note that after we switched from the 19" OE to the 18" winter setup on the Model 3 we couldn't get past Step 7 until we started driving the car. About 5 minutes it suddenly popped the Tire Size selection display onto the screen, and when we selected 18" it confirmed all was good and began displaying pressures immediately. Not sure if any of the S or X owners have ever experienced that. But it was still easy as pie compared to some of the other systems out there and makes it simple for owners to do their own rotations and summer/winter swaps.
> 
> *EDIT 10/16/18:* It appears that for Model 3 as of V9 (or possibly even late V8) the TPMS reset function is no longer available in the Service menu.
> However the process is now even simpler, just install your new sensors, start driving and after 15 minutes or so you will get a pop-up asking you to select the wheel diameter installed. Select the correct size and you're done!


I got my tires isntalled today and the message came up asking to select a tire size but it didn't actually adjust and display at all. It gave me a TPMS alert which wont go away. What do I do now?


----------



## Mad Hungarian

pumxee said:


> I got my tires isntalled today and the message came up asking to select a tire size but it didn't actually adjust and display at all. It gave me a TPMS alert which wont go away. What do I do now?


What kind of TPMS sensors are you using?


----------



## John

pumxee said:


> I got my tires isntalled today and the message came up asking to select a tire size but it didn't actually adjust and display at all. It gave me a TPMS alert which wont go away. What do I do now?


Note that it takes a while to go away.

_The Tire Pressure indicator light does not immediately turn off when you adjust tire pressure. 
After inflating the tire to the recommended pressure, you must drive over 15 mph (25 km/h) for more than 10 minutes to activate the Tire Pressure Monitoring System (TPMS), which turns off the Tire Pressure indicator light. _


----------



## pumxee

Mad Hungarian said:


> What kind of TPMS sensors are you using?


They're after market ones from PMCTire. Three of the 4 are working but not the rear drivers side one


----------



## TheMagician

pumxee said:


> They're after market ones from PMCTire. Three of the 4 are working but not the rear drivers side one


As aggravating as it is, you'll have to go back to PMC and let them check the sensor. They'll have a device that can communicate with the sensor and confirm if it's working. If not, they'll break the tire down and replace the sensor. Not sure if it's standard protocol to confirm they're working before you leave the shop but it should be.


----------



## pumxee

TheMagician said:


> As aggravating as it is, you'll have to go back to PMC and let them check the sensor. They'll have a device that can communicate with the sensor and confirm if it's working. If not, they'll break the tire down and replace the sensor. Not sure if it's standard protocol to confirm they're working before you leave the shop but it should be.


Unfortunately, I'm in Calgary. It's weird but now all 4 sensors aren't working. Don't understand what's going on.


----------



## TheMagician

pumxee said:


> Unfortunately, I'm in Calgary. It's weird but now all 4 sensors aren't working. Don't understand what's going on.


Okay, don't know much about Canada (you make great hockey players  ) but if the place you purchased is not convenient, call the nearest tire store and ask if they have a TPMS reader. Confirm that it's a true reader, not a device that needs to plug into the OBD port (because you don't have one). They'll probably do it for free but even if they charge $15-$20 to read them, at least you'll know their status. And even if they get a signal back from the sensors, see if they can confirm the frequency. Although not likely since the car was previously reading 3 of the 4, PMC could have installed the wrong sensors.


----------



## pumxee

TheMagician said:


> Okay, don't know much about Canada (you make great hockey players  ) but if the place you purchased is not convenient, call the nearest tire store and ask if they have a TPMS reader. Confirm that it's a true reader, not a device that needs to plug into the OBD port (because you don't have one). They'll probably do it for free but even if they charge $15-$20 to read them, at least you'll know their status. And even if they get a signal back from the sensors, see if they can confirm the frequency. Although not likely since the car was previously reading 3 of the 4, PMC could have installed the wrong sensors.


Hockey players aren't too bad lol .... The strange thing is that all 4 have worked but not all together. Either the front passenger side fails and the other three work or the rear driver's side fails and the other three work. So that would make it seem like all TPMS sensors do function, but why aren't all 4 working altogether. Should I try a hard system reset?


----------



## Guest

Maybe two of them have the same ID and they interfere with each other.


----------



## pumxee

arnis said:


> Maybe two of them have the same ID and they interfere with each other.


How would I go about fixing this?


----------



## PNWmisty

pumxee said:


> How would I go about fixing this?


I would just send them back to where you got them and get new ones. Life is too short to put up with stuff that doesn't work.


----------



## TheMagician

arnis said:


> Maybe two of them have the same ID and they interfere with each other.





pumxee said:


> How would I go about fixing this?


I thought every sensor had its own unique ID number to prevent this type of issue but may be wrong. Again, a tire store will be able to tell you after they scan them. And yes, reset using brake pedal and the two steering wheel buttons never hurts anything.


----------



## pumxee

TheMagician said:


> I thought every sensor had its own unique ID number to prevent this type of issue but may be wrong. Again, a tire store will be able to tell you after they scan them. And yes, reset using brake pedal and the two steering wheel buttons never hurts anything.


I'm going to try the reset today. The issue is I can't just take off the wheels now and remove the sensor. If it doesn't correct itself by Monday I will reach out to PMC Tire and file a complaint. I already called them to make a note about the issue before.


----------



## Guest

Sensor can't be recoded by reset. Must be replaced.


----------



## Mad Hungarian

arnis said:


> Sensor can't be recoded by reset. Must be replaced.


Actually if these are aftermarket universal units it should be possible to "wipe" the programming and start from scratch. Both the Schraeder EZ-Sensors and VDO Redi-Sensors we distribute are capable of being fully reprogrammed with the right scan tool.


----------



## pumxee

Mad Hungarian said:


> Actually if these are aftermarket universal units it should be possible to "wipe" the programming and start from scratch. Both the Schraeder EZ-Sensors and VDO Redi-Sensors we distribute are capable of being fully reprogrammed with the right scan tool.


Should i just take it to any tire shop?


----------



## Mad Hungarian

pumxee said:


> Should i just take it to any tire shop?


These days just about any reputable shop should have the correct tools to scan and reprogram them. It would likely be helpful for them to know the exact make/model/part no. of the sensors so that they can confirm the correct re-learn procedure, is that indicated anywhere on your order or paperwork received?


----------



## pumxee

Mad Hungarian said:


> These days just about any reputable shop should have the correct tools to scan and reprogram them. It would likely be helpful for them to know the exact make/model/part no. of the sensors so that they can confirm the correct re-learn procedure, is that indicated anywhere on your order or paperwork received?


The picture on the website shows the sensor ID's I don't know if they're the same. This is them: https://pmctire.com/en/accessories/valves/tpms.tire


----------



## Mad Hungarian

pumxee said:


> The picture on the website shows the sensor ID's I don't know if they're the same. This is them: https://pmctire.com/en/accessories/valves/tpms.tire


Ahhh, they're ITM universals.
Fairly common aftermarket units, most shops should be able to read/program them.


----------



## Randy

Hello to all;
Earlier in this thread there were some questions regarding a square set up with 155 tires. I decided to take the plunge, and with some much needed guidance from our favorite forum guru this is what I came up with.
I ordered the Fast wheels Aristo black with Bronze accents. The rims are 18 x 9.5 with a 30 mm offset.
I chose a BF Goodrich G-force Comp TA 255-45-18 tire. I was thinking the 30mm offset would be better than the stock 40mm to help move the slightly wider tire away from the inner suspension linkage that is so close to the stock tire.
I know the tire is a little taller than the 18s that were on the car, I wanted to close the fender gap a little and couldn't tolerate a lower spring due to clearance issues at my location.
Ian's exact words " _*255/45R18. It will be verrrry close to the top of the suspension knuckle upright in front, but should clear.*_" Ian was right on the money. 
The tires are 7 tenths of an inch larger diameter than stock, makes for 3% lower speed difference in registered speed compared to actual speed
The sidewall is 3 tenths higher .. little more compliant over pot holes. The front tires stick out approx 3 mm past the fender and the rears are close to flush with the fender (see pictures)
the tires are slightly louder to drive on than originals as originals have foam in them and these do not.
I am very happy with these, I pushed the car *really* *really hard* around the off-ramp and have had no rubbing issues
Thank you Ian for your help and the willingness to share your knowledge
Randy


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## MelindaV

@Mad Hungarian - what do you think of this? Interesting they are showing this on a Bolt.
https://www.kptv.com/michelin-and-g...cle_28b71c74-f55d-53f6-8502-e8fe74796941.html


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## John

MelindaV said:


> @Mad Hungarian - what do you think of this? Interesting they are showing this on a Bolt.
> https://www.kptv.com/michelin-and-g...cle_28b71c74-f55d-53f6-8502-e8fe74796941.html


After hunting around, the only hard data I found was here:
https://michelinmedia.com/site/user/files/1/Michelin-Uptis-Short-FAQ-FINAL-Eng_20190605_docx.pdf

A little heavier, no info on traction (but deemed equivalent for "passenger vehicles" at highway speeds), and probably significantly more expensive (my guess) because of their language about being most appropriate for fleets and autonomous cars (revenue-making situations where maintenance and reliability are more important the initial purchase prices).

Assuming there isn't a big hit to performance, I think it would be a real step forward to ditch TPMS and flat tires.


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## Mad Hungarian

MelindaV said:


> @Mad Hungarian - what do you think of this? Interesting they are showing this on a Bolt.
> https://www.kptv.com/michelin-and-g...cle_28b71c74-f55d-53f6-8502-e8fe74796941.html


Oh you can bet that made the rounds of the offices here when it dropped two days ago!
I've actually been following the progress on this concept since back in 2005 when they revealed the first prototypes, but until now it didn't look like it was really going to make it too far past the lawn tractor and ATV market.
GM making a firm commitment to getting it onto a production car however changes the game pretty significantly.

On the plus side, it has a lot of potential not only for eliminating both the inconvenience of flats as well as failures from under-inflation but also to deliver some pretty impressive performance by eliminating tire roll and maybe even reducing rolling resistance.

However on the negative side there are a lot of things that concern me...
The first and most obvious is how are they proposing to enclose the structure? Leaving it open like this is totally out of the question in winter, can you imagine what would happen once the innards fill with ice/slush/snow and freeze? Obviously they must have a solution for that or it's a complete non-starter.
The next hurdle I see is much more subtle but still very significant and that's in the absence of being able to adjust pressure how do you tune a given size to work on different vehicles? One of the many beauties of pneumatic tires is that by adjusting inflation pressure you can finely tune the ride, handling and load carrying capabilities for a wide range of applications. In this case the tire's stiffness is 100% predetermined and fixed, so you will need to have at least a number of different skus in the exact same size to be able to get the desired result in a given application. That's not a problem for a single-application OEM contract deal, but it severely limits the possibility of this becoming a mass-market replacement. We haven't even talked about different categories, in any one given size consumers typically want the choice of touring, performance, ultrahigh performance designs, then there's season... summer, all season, winter? I'm guessing to be able to duplicate anything close to the current range of choice consumers currently have in the Michelin lineup for a given size to fit all the different possible applications there's going to need to be at least 5 times the number of skus compared to pneumatics. That's a lot of development and production costs for the manufacturer and worse, a lot of inventory costs for distributors who in the low margin world of tires are not going to appreciate being sku'd to death any more than they already are.
And we haven't even BEGUN to talk about the wheel side of it either, because these are obviously going to have to have their own dedicated new types wheels, so forget just buying them as replacements, or worse still they are going to be complete married-for-life wheel-tire units. If that's the case never mind my estimate of 5 times the number of skus-per-size, it'll be more like 50-per-size or more if you have to cover all the possible combinations of bolt pattern, offset and center bore requirements of each different vehicle. For just one size of tire.

Now maybe they have answers to all the above concerns. If so I look forward to seeing them, because this really is the first serious next-level advancement in tire tech since I've been alive.
But until I see them comprehensively addressed this one gets filed in the same drawer as the now-extinct TRX and PAX: Innovative, fascinating, but not commercially viable for anything other than one-shot OEM deals.


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## John

My guess is that "and with other OEMs allowed by the GM contract" may specifically mean no Tesla as a partner.


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## John

Why Bolt-focused? 

My hot take is that I think this choice reflects the trad automakers view that a fringe tire can acceptably be placed on a fringe EV without the consequences and press of seeing this on a more familiar and popular car. Not many people buy or want a Bolt (they don't sell very many), so not many people care what they look like on one.

Also, no one really cares what the Bolt does on a skid pad.

If I was being generous, I'd say the tire of the future (2024 at the earliest) belongs on GMs car of the future. I guess.


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## MelindaV

Mad Hungarian said:


> The first and most obvious is how are they proposing to enclose the structure? Leaving it open like this is totally out of the question in winter, can you imagine what would happen once the innards fill with ice/slush/snow and freeze? Obviously they must have a solution for that or it's a complete non-starter.


is there a reason they couldn't add a sidewall? are they showing it open like this to demo what's inside, or is the thought that they actually plan to roll these out like this?


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## Mesprit87

Well something's sure, if they do leave it open, don't bother getting aerodynamic wheels...


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## John

Maybe getting clogged up isn't an issue. They may effectively self-clean.
It may be hard to put any material there (including closed-pore foam) that won't crack and look bad with all of the flexure.
A floating cover may just act to trap stuff that seeps in.
You may need to see the struts to assess tire condition.
My (utterly uninformed) guess is that they will always look like that.


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## Rick Steinwand

I saw a stand-up self-propelled lawn mower last month that had wheels that looked exactly like the picture above, with no sidewall.


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## Mad Hungarian

MelindaV said:


> is there a reason they couldn't add a sidewall? are they showing it open like this to demo what's inside, or is the thought that they actually plan to roll these out like this?


I'm not sure why they couldn't incorporate a sidewall like a conventional tire, however that would have to be pretty well thought out because if it's 100% sealed it would potentially see internal pressure build up from flex like a pneumatic tire does in use and that may or may not play with its spring rate, which is obviously calibrated to function in an open atmosphere. However if they vented it there's now the potential for water to get trapped inside and freeze with no easy way to get out. Or bugs., debris, etc.
So far all the lawn tractor and ATV applications I've seen in service are open, so I'm very curious to see how the automotive design is going to turn out.


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## MGMagnette

I'd like to ask a question about lugnuts and this seems like the best thread. I bought a McGard kit 65515 to replace my lugnuts and black plastic covers with chrome spline drive and locks. When I took off the first Tesla lugnut to replace it with a lock, I noticed that although both the Tesla and McGard lugnuts have the same conical taper, the McGard seat width is about half the seat width of the Tesla lugnut. Because the Tesla wheels are aluminum with no steel inserts around the seats, I'm thinking that the wider seat on the lugnut is required to spread the load out. Am I correct, or are the McGard lugnuts OK with a skinny taper seat?


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## Mad Hungarian

MGMagnette said:


> I'd like to ask a question about lugnuts and this seems like the best thread. I bought a McGard kit 65515 to replace my lugnuts and black plastic covers with chrome spline drive and locks. When I took off the first Tesla lugnut to replace it with a lock, I noticed that although both the Tesla and McGard lugnuts have the same conical taper, the McGard seat width is about half the seat width of the Tesla lugnut. Because the Tesla wheels are aluminum with no steel inserts around the seats, I'm thinking that the wider seat on the lugnut is required to spread the load out. Am I correct, or are the McGard lugnuts OK with a skinny taper seat?


It isn't that the McGard seats are unusually small, it's much more a case of the Tesla lug seats being unusually large, in fact they're just about the biggest I've ever seen on an OEM nut. Nice, but somewhat overkill for the job. The ones on the McGard set are a far more common size for most OEMs and will work perfectly on a plain aluminum seat.


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## xof

8ightyse7en said:


> View attachment 28337


What tires are you running on these gorgeous Stance SF07?


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## Tasty

Does anyone have any feed back on the TSS wheels from Tsportline 20’ staggered set? Has anyone had a vibration issue or a lot of loss in range? Are these made in China? 🤔


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## 455rocket

I am in need of TPMS sensors for my brand new model 3 (taking possession in a week) for winter tyres.
Seems like OEM is using Continental/VDO SE52068, however I can source VDO SE10004A for much cheaper.... about $15-$20 each.

see box here and part : VDO-SE10004A-REDI-Sensor

I have a feeling they are exactly just the same, but the 52068 is sold at a higher price just because it is for Tesla OEM.

Anyone can confirm that they will just work the same ?


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## Feathermerchant

After fighting with aftermarket TPMS falling apart inside the tire!!! My advice is to buy ones from your normal tire store. Example: Discount tire sells TPMS compatible with our cars and with a 7 year warranty. It's pretty expensive to remove and replace a sensor.


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## garsh

Feathermerchant said:


> After fighting with aftermarket TPMS falling apart inside the tire!!! My advice is to buy ones from your normal tire store. Example: Discount tire sells TPMS compatible with our cars and with a 7 year warranty. It's pretty expensive to remove and replace a sensor.


Schrader is a high-quality aftermarket brand (as confirmed by both our local wheel expert, and the installers at my local NTB).

https://www.schradersensors.com/en/our-products/schrader-ez-sensor

Rock Auto: Schraeder EZ-sensors 33500, $25.79 each (+ reasonable shipping)

Amazon has them too ($29 at time of posting), but they're currently less expensive at Rock Auto, even with shipping.



Mad Hungarian said:


> I'm very wary of cheap-and-cheerful eBay sensors, but if you want a lower cost alternative to the OEM units I'd recommend Schrader's EZ-Sensors. They are a high quality universal programmable type that work just like the OE at around half the price.


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## Feathermerchant

That's fine for initial savings. But if one goes out, what do you do? You can't return it unless you have the tire unmounted to remove it. Then what? Have the tire reinstalled and drive around with three TPMS until you get the replacement? Order another and get them swapped when it arrives? (more than $25 for tire work)
For most car parts where you can just swap them out yourself a less expensive option may be a good way to go but unless you have tire tools capable of removing the tire from the rim or at least breaking the bead I think it is far better to pay a premium for the TPMS from the tire place and just use their warranty if a sensor fails. Their warranty covers tire removal and they have the sensors in stock.


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## garsh

Feathermerchant said:


> That's fine for initial savings. But if one goes out, what do you do?


I've never had a Schrader TPMS fall apart, or otherwise fail.
I've had an OEM sensor fail on a Honda.


Feathermerchant said:


> I think it is far better to pay a premium for the TPMS from the tire place and just use their warranty if a sensor fails. Their warranty covers tire removal and they have the sensors in stock.


If that gives you peace-of-mind, then it's a great choice. And some places are more reasonably priced than others. My local Firestone quoted me over $300 for new TPMS sensors.


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## Feathermerchant

Sure. Shop around. 
My experience has taught me about aftermarket sensors. As long as I can find a better alternative, I'll use it.


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## Mesprit87

Feathermerchant said:


> Sure. Shop around.
> My experience has taught me about aftermarket sensors. As long as I can find a better alternative, I'll use it.


Schrader is not some aftermarket gig, they have been around for decades on aircrafts and cars.
Yet they can provide a decent price for consumers or oem.
But I agree with you, you almost never win buying the cheapest.


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## Feathermerchant

My main point is that the average consumer has to pay for tire mount/dismount/balance when TPMS are replaced so buying the tire shop offering means that if it breaks within warranty, the tire shop will pay for the mount/dismount/balance, not the consumer. Yes it is averaged in with the cost of the TPMS but you also have to factor in the time involved getting a replacement and settling up with the TPMS seller.


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## garsh

Feathermerchant said:


> ...means that if it breaks within warranty, the tire shop will pay for the mount/dismount/balance, not the consumer.


Or it means that your shop damaged your TPMS sensors during installation and you should consider changing shops.


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## Feathermerchant

That is a possibility. Maybe they wanted me to buy theirs.
They did properly install the 4 Tesla sensors I bought though. The Tesla are one piece. 
The Autel are two piece. After the first one fell off, I found out that it happens sometimes.
The Schrader are one piece I think.


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## garsh

Feathermerchant said:


> That is a possibility. Maybe they wanted me to buy theirs.
> They did properly install the 4 Tesla sensors I bought though. The Tesla are one piece.
> The Autel are two piece. After the first one fell off, I found out that it happens sometimes.
> The Schrader are one piece I think.


The Schraders have separate valve and TPMS parts that screw together. I'm not sure if that's what you meant by two-piece or not. Or maybe you're referring to the "clamp-in", rigid valves instead of the single-piece, rubber, friction-fit valves?

The valve should be replaced with every tire change. But if you need to replace a tire long before the TPMS battery is due to fail, then you can unscrew the TPMS from the valve, replace the valve, and screw the TPMS back on.


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## Mad Hungarian

455rocket said:


> I am in need of TPMS sensors for my brand new model 3 (taking possession in a week) for winter tyres.
> Seems like OEM is using Continental/VDO SE52068, however I can source VDO SE10004A for much cheaper.... about $15-$20 each.
> 
> see box here and part : VDO-SE10004A-REDI-Sensor
> 
> I have a feeling they are exactly just the same, but the 52068 is sold at a higher price just because it is for Tesla OEM.
> 
> Anyone can confirm that they will just work the same ?


We've distributed the universal VDO Redi-Sensors for years and have had excellent results with them, however they do not have any approved applications for Tesla.
Here's a screen shot from their U.S. application tool:










(link here: https://www.redi-sensor.com/application-look-up/ )

As you can see they list only a the SE52068 OE style direct replacement unit, no mention of the SE10004A or any of their other universal numbers.

I can however heartily recommend @garsh 's suggestion of the Schrader EZ-Sensors, once they've been configured for you Model 3 they are plug-n-play just like the OE units and offer the security of being manufactured by one of the world's largest OEM suppliers.
Personally I'd recommend going with the SC33700 part number as it has the correct high-speed aluminum valve stem like the OE units, the rubber ones on the SC33500 are only rated to 130 mph.


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## Mad Hungarian

Feathermerchant said:


> That is a possibility. Maybe they wanted me to buy theirs.
> They did properly install the 4 Tesla sensors I bought though. The Tesla are one piece.
> The Autel are two piece. After the first one fell off, I found out that it happens sometimes.
> The Schrader are one piece I think.


Actually the Tesla OE and both versions of the Schraeder Redi-Sensors are all two-piece units, as they have have removable/replaceable valve stems.
Here's a close up of the Tesla OE unit, as you can see the stem is a separate, articulated part that can swivel to allow the body to conform to the internal shape of the wheel it's being mounted in. When you torque down the exterior collar nut it locks the body into a rigid, fixed position.


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## Feathermerchant

Hmmm. Well maybe the Autel was not properly installed. 
Will the Tesla actually separate or just articulate?


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