# When do electric vehicles become cleaner than gasoline



## bwilson4web (Mar 4, 2019)

Source: Analysis: When do electric vehicles become cleaner than gasoline cars? | Reuters

_The model was developed by the Argonne National Laboratory in Chicago and includes thousands of parameters from the type metals in an electric vehicle (EV) battery to the amount of aluminium or plastic in a car.

Argonne's Greenhouse Gases, Regulated Emissions and Energy Use in Technologies (GREET) model is now being used with other tools to help shape policy at the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) and the California Air Resources Board, the two main regulators of vehicle emissions in the United States.

Jarod Cory Kelly, principal energy systems analyst at Argonne, said making EVs generates more carbon than combustion engine cars, mainly due to the extraction and processing of minerals in EV batteries and production of the power cells._​
The cost to making batteries includes the 'formulation' step that is a series of charge-discharge cycles in a thermally controlled environment. Traditionally, this has increased the amount of CO{2} attributed to building an EV. However, Tesla has a new patent that substantially reduces this battery manufacturing CO{2} cost:





Bob Wilson


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## gary in NY (Dec 2, 2018)

Sounds like the current tech for manufacturing EVs is more carbon positive than manufacturing ICE vehicles. I would think that that could change as the technology advances. They have to use the current tech to develop the next generation tech. ICE vehicles have had 100+ years to reach the current levels. Do they comment on the lifetime emissions? I saw somewhere that after a number of years, the EV produces less.


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## mrau (Nov 22, 2018)

Appears after driving 13,000 miles in a Model 3 it is greener overall than a gasoline car. That is in USA where 23% of energy produced is from coal. In Norway where producing energy is all hydro, it only takes 8,400 miles.

https://www.reuters.com/business/au...become-cleaner-than-gasoline-cars-2021-06-29/


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## JasonF (Oct 26, 2018)

It's impossible to win that argument. Most people who bring it up at all want to justify what they purchased (a diesel/gasoline vehicle) by shooting down the alternative. I actually think we should all stop using it, and just stick with EV's are a valid preference.

There is nothing more strong in our world than social anger and scorn, and the biggest threat to EVs' existence is the impression that we buy them because we think we're better than everyone else, and that people hate EV drivers. Then people who own them gradually become embarrassed to own them, and gradually start to switch back to gasoline to fit in again, and suddenly EV's are just a fading trend. That's the most important thing to prevent from happening.


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## bwilson4web (Mar 4, 2019)

JasonF said:


> It's impossible to win that argument. Most people who bring it up at all want to justify what they purchased (a diesel/gasoline vehicle) by shooting down the alternative. I actually think we should all stop using it, and just stick with EV's are a valid preference.
> . . .


That is why I prefer to share:

~25% of my town miles are free from local merchants who want my business
$2.75/100 miles around town
$3.00/100 miles when staying at free breakfast and over night charging motels on long distance trips
$3.50-3.75/100 miles using SuperCharger with 20 minutes charging for 2-2.5 hours driving
no oil, air filter, transmission, or brake pad costs
~5 moving parts compared to ~200-500 moving parts in an ICE/diesel
Emphasize the low, out of pocket operating and maintenance costs because they have no answer. They don't understand unless owners share. As for the Argonne GREET model (or any other,) this remains important for science based, policy makers. Be prepared to deal with the random engineer or hard science skilled individuals.

Bob Wilson


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## JasonF (Oct 26, 2018)

bwilson4web said:


> Emphasize the low, out of pocket operating and maintenance costs because they have no answer. They don't understand unless owners share. As for the Argonne GREET model (or any other,) this remains important for science based, policy makers. Be prepared to deal with the random engineer or hard science skilled individuals.


That's the way to do it - don't fight over the persistent rumors, those are like a religion, and people will cling to those beliefs no matter what. Instead, show them that your car saves you money and time. The #1 way I turn people around in discussions of EV's is when I tell them I charge at home, and how little it costs. That's the kind of thing that makes them questions everything they've heard.


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## DocScott (Mar 6, 2019)

This graph from the article is a pretty good summary:


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## M3OC Rules (Nov 18, 2016)

If someone says EVs are going to increase coal usage I point them to this graph:
https://www.eia.gov/energyexplained/coal/use-of-coal.php
Electricity usage is roughly flat while coal usage is half over the last 12 years or so. And 4 of those years were under the Trump administration. Coal is more expensive than other solutions so I don't see why anyone would predict a comeback. Obviously people who make these arguments have done zero research. I think the data speaks for itself.


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## Mike (Apr 4, 2016)

DocScott said:


> This graph from the article is a pretty good summary:
> 
> View attachment 39050


When I first read this report and passed it along to one of my denier/anti-EV friends, I also ensured he knew that this chart compares a Toyota Corolla to a TM3 and that the operating envelope for my TM3 is vastly superior to the Toyota product.

I question why a Corolla is even used as the benchmark versus an automobile that has a similar operating envelope as the TM3.


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## garsh (Apr 4, 2016)

M3OC Rules said:


> If someone says EVs are going to increase coal usage I point them to this graph:


If someone says that to me, I reply with:


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/882005931793543169


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