# Porsche Taycan



## garsh (Apr 4, 2016)

Strangely, we don't appear to have a dedicated thread about this vehicle yet.

Mission E Turns Taycan






I'm happy to see somebody else putting out a non-econobox EV. While I bet they'll have a difficult time winning over Tesla owners, I think this will sell well to existing Porsche owners. Hopefully Porsche is nimble enough to adjust their manufacturing quickly if this turns out to be the case.


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## MelindaV (Apr 2, 2016)

garsh said:


> Strangely, we don't appear to have a dedicated thread about this vehicle yet.


i think @Michael Russo was putting their posts under the VW thread


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## garsh (Apr 4, 2016)

MelindaV said:


> i think @Michael Russo was putting their posts under the VW thread


Yeah. Let's not do that.


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## Love (Sep 13, 2017)

Definitely exciting to see more EVs come to market, especially one from a brand like Porsche and done "right" (made from the ground up, mostly? completely?) versus some conversion of an ICE vehicle with odd proportions, unused space and strangely shaped and situated batteries. I really hope it's successful and gets more people to make the switch! I can't wait to see one in person and thumbs up the owner!

I always get sick of the "Tesla versus..." crap that some news/media/websites seem to get stuck on. "Tesla killers", how does this compare to Tesla, will people switch from Tesla to Porsche, etc. I have to roll my eyes at all the clickbait articles out there like that.

Porsche coming out with their own electric offering? Love it! Audi's eTron getting amazing crash test ratings? Love it! I'm quite hopeful that more EV options will mean more converts from ICE, versus more converts from Tesla to other brands. That's what _should_ be the narrative.

To be more on topic here... I really loved the way the prototype (Mission E) looked and for some reason I'm finding the Taycan to be... I can't place it. I feel like it's missing something. Did they change something? Some of the lines? Is it just the color combo of the Mission E that I liked, the white on white with those awesome rims? Is it the addition of side mirrors? Here's a side by side and honestly it really looks like the same car, but wow I find this first image so much more appealing.


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## PEIEVGUY (Dec 19, 2018)

It looks like a fine machine, but I doubt those of use already sworn into the Tesla camp/cult will be lured into a Taycan. 

More likely they will get sales from their customers (20K reservations is nothing to sneeze at) who already love Porsche and are EV-curious.


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## Johnston (Oct 12, 2018)

PEIEVGUY said:


> It looks like a fine machine, but I doubt those of use already sworn into the Tesla camp/cult will be lured into a Taycan.
> 
> More likely they will get sales from their customers (20K reservations is nothing to sneeze at) who already love Porsche and are EV-curious.


There are likely quite a few Model S owners that were previously Porsche owners that may switch back to Porsche.


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## tesla m3 (Mar 28, 2019)

Supposedly will be closer to 200 mile range in real world usage. So we're back to "new competitors are still trying to beat the 2012 model s" game.


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## bwilson4web (Mar 4, 2019)

Sounds like the Tesla Roadster II will have honorable competition:
https://insideevs.com/news/365827/porsche-taycan-24-hours-endurance/






Bob Wilson


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## MelindaV (Apr 2, 2016)

bwilson4web said:


> Sounds like the Tesla Roadster II will have honorable competition


it's a 4 door like the S. Why not compare it to the S?


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## EchoCharlie3189 (Mar 28, 2019)

Lovesword said:


> To be more on topic here... I really loved the way the prototype (Mission E) looked and for some reason I'm finding the Taycan to be... I can't place it. I feel like it's missing something. Did they change something? Some of the lines? Is it just the color combo of the Mission E that I liked, the white on white with those awesome rims? Is it the addition of side mirrors? Here's a side by side and honestly it really looks like the same car, but wow I find this first image so much more appealing.
> 
> View attachment 28538


It was the weird area and coloring around the headlights and taillights that put me off. Just looks... weird


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## Mr. Spacely (Feb 28, 2019)

In addition to different wheels, the prototype has no side rear view mirror, no license plate, different door handles, and the whole headlights/bumper/grill integration is very different.


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## racekarl (Jul 31, 2018)

> It was the weird area and coloring around the headlights and taillights that put me off. Just looks... weird


Those are just stickers there to lightly camouflage the vehicle


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## bwilson4web (Mar 4, 2019)

MelindaV said:


> it's a 4 door like the S. Why not compare it to the S?


Works for me once we get the metrics of individually owned cars.

Bob Wilson


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## Mesprit87 (Oct 29, 2017)

Lovesword said:


> Definitely exciting to see more EVs come to market, especially one from a brand like Porsche and done "right" (made from the ground up, mostly? completely?) versus some conversion of an ICE vehicle with odd proportions, unused space and strangely shaped and situated batteries. I really hope it's successful and gets more people to make the switch! I can't wait to see one in person and thumbs up the owner!
> 
> I always get sick of the "Tesla versus..." crap that some news/media/websites seem to get stuck on. "Tesla killers", how does this compare to Tesla, will people switch from Tesla to Porsche, etc. I have to roll my eyes at all the clickbait articles out there like that.
> 
> ...


The doors, they sit a lot flusher to front and rear wings.
It removes the excitement of lets say the rear hips of a 993


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## BW984 (Nov 30, 2018)

I was comparison shopping the Taycan to the P3D until I learned that the fast Taycan that meets their advertised acceleration and power specs was going to be double the price of the P3D. If it provides P3D or better type performance and is significantly quieter than the model 3 at highway speed then I think it will have it’s place in the luxury car market. Can’t wait to see one in person and maybe one day see one on the road. Still haven’t seen an I-pace or an e-Tron on the road.


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## littlD (Apr 17, 2016)

From our experience at the recent Midwest Tesla Gathering, a number of the Model S and X owners were in "thermal limit" trying to take laps at the NCM Motorsports Park.

All the Model 3s just kept on humming.

For those people who want to run their cars on the track, you may see a few trade their Model S for a Taycan.

That is, if they can find enough 150kW-250kW CCS chargers once they get to the track. Not the easiest thing to do.

As for us, we had 14-50 chargers at the track (not the fastest as many of us know) but had a Supercharger just a few miles away.

And, interestingly, Electrify America have installed chargers (150 kW AND 350 kW) at the Corvette Museum next to the race track.... hmmm... plug in hybrid Corvette may be on the horizon. And Taycans could run on that track.

Tesla... CCS Combo adapter please.


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## Needsdecaf (Dec 27, 2018)

tesla m3 said:


> Supposedly will be closer to 200 mile range in real world usage. So we're back to "new competitors are still trying to beat the 2012 model s" game.


That was a quote taken from Car and Driver or another mag who happened to see that on a display during a prototype drive. But it was based on recent consumption and who knows how they were driving it? But the ETron has at least that much range and it's much heavier, so I can't imagine the Taycan would be that low.

I will wait for the announcement to pass judgment on that.


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## Needsdecaf (Dec 27, 2018)

BW984 said:


> I was comparison shopping the Taycan to the P3D until I learned that the fast Taycan that meets their advertised acceleration and power specs was going to be double the price of the P3D. If it provides P3D or better type performance and is significantly quieter than the model 3 at highway speed then I think it will have it's place in the luxury car market. Can't wait to see one in person and maybe one day see one on the road. Still haven't seen an I-pace or an e-Tron on the road.


Yeah, as a Porsche owner, I feel that pain. Their cars are expensive and getting even more so. The base price of a Cayenne (base) is $67k but by the time you option it like it's Audi / BMW / Mercedes competition (i.e. vented seats, surround camera, adaptive cruise, active suspension, etc.) you're looking at a price over $95k, where the others are $78k to $82k. Crazy! Porsche really knows how to charge for the options.


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## Needsdecaf (Dec 27, 2018)

Interior revealed. Looks good. A touch too conventional for me, much like a fully digitial Panamera ****pit.


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## Mr. Spacely (Feb 28, 2019)

Way too many buttons and dials and little screens and controls...


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## tivoboy (Mar 24, 2017)

If this is a real representation, I REALLY like the a passenger seems to get access to a lot of info or controls.


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## Love (Sep 13, 2017)

Is that an analog speedometer/digital clock combo sticking up in the middle of the dash? I don’t mind the look of this interior...but ...I hate that feature, it made me cringe. It looks so out of place. But eh...as soon as I post this, someone else will post that they like that...such is the way of things. Lol. 

I have a feeling that within the next five years we’re only going to see interiors like this, just small variations of touch screen shape and placement. Kind of like how most of us probably use a thin rectangle shaped touch screen object as our phone now (and the internet loves to argue about who has the better rectangle!!!)


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## FRC (Aug 4, 2018)

Quick count, I see 65 different buttons to choose from!


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## Love (Sep 13, 2017)

Ok, so being digital screens, I realize these can be (will be?) customizable and don't _have _to look like this... and that these images are just the very first released to the public. I'm also in favor of a little bit of redundancy but...I was looking these over and felt like they have way too much going on...

How many clocks do you _really_ need? This doesn't come off to me as modern and cutting edge. It comes off as _cluttered._


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## EchoCharlie3189 (Mar 28, 2019)

Needsdecaf said:


> View attachment 28620


381 km range if 75% is 286 km... so 236 miles?


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## Needsdecaf (Dec 27, 2018)

tivoboy said:


> If this is a real representation, I REALLY like the a passenger seems to get access to a lot of info or controls.


These are official press photos. THe passenger screen is optional (typical Porsche).


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## Needsdecaf (Dec 27, 2018)

Lovesword said:


> Is that an analog speedometer/digital clock combo sticking up in the middle of the dash? I don't mind the look of this interior...but ...I hate that feature, it made me cringe. It looks so out of place. But eh...as soon as I post this, someone else will post that they like that...such is the way of things. Lol.
> 
> I have a feeling that within the next five years we're only going to see interiors like this, just small variations of touch screen shape and placement. Kind of like how most of us probably use a thin rectangle shaped touch screen object as our phone now (and the internet loves to argue about who has the better rectangle!!!)


That dash clock is a stopwatch (with digital clock embedded). It's part of the Sport Chrono package on all Porsche sports cars and other cars (like the Panamera). It's an old school throwback that also includes an on-screen lap counter and other features. On my 911, it includes adaptive engine mounts, different engine modes, and also different transmission modes on the PDK equipped cars. For the Taycan, who knows what it will include. Perhaps some different motor mapping or responsivness? Or maybe nothing?

Some people love it, others hate it and call it the wart. But it's a Porsche thing. And optional.



FRC said:


> Quick count, I see 65 different buttons to choose from!


I don't see any buttons, I see touchpads.



Lovesword said:


> Ok, so being digital screens, I realize these can be (will be?) customizable and don't _have _to look like this... and that these images are just the very first released to the public. I'm also in favor of a little bit of redundancy but...I was looking these over and felt like they have way too much going on...
> 
> How many clocks do you _really_ need? This doesn't come off to me as modern and cutting edge. It comes off as _cluttered._


LOL, I hear you. Keep in mind the passenger display is optional. Omitting that would de-clutter things quite a bit. Porsche loves giving you the time. On my 911, I have a digital clock on the radio / nav display. I can also have one on the screen on my dashboard digital gauge. I also have a third digital clock on the Sport Chrono timer on the dash. I have no idea why they are so fascinated with time, LOL.

As for the rest of it, it looks busy with the small tiles shown on the nav screen, but from my experience, that's highly customizable like an android layout. Also you can set it to do full screen nav and do much of your functionality on the dashboard screens. Porsche isn't straying too far from it's base with this layout. It's a modern interpretation of what they have, and should play well. Believe me, when I go from my Tesla to my Porsche, the difference is shocking. I don't find it overwhelming, nor do I hate either one. I appreciate the differences for what they are. Especially on the 911 because it's so different to the Tesla in terms of how it drives, etc.

On an EV, I do think that they should have gone a LITTLE more minimalistic. I would have followed the Model S and X design ethos a little more. With that center console bridge, it would have been a perfect opportunity to do a vertically oriented 15" screen with split functionality, and had the vents above. Or perhaps that wasn't vertical enough? I would have preferred that, though. One thing that Tesla gets right and Porsche gets wrong is having too many climate controls that are always present. Really, set the damn thing in auto and put the rest of the controls on a pop-up screen. You don't need that many controls at hand, you don't use them that often.

But it's still better than my Cayenne. Now that's cluttered.











EchoCharlie3189 said:


> 381 km range if 75% is 286 km... so 236 miles?


Again, who knows how that display reads. I won't make anything of it until the range is officially released.


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## shareef777 (Mar 10, 2019)

I like it. Lol, then again, I like the minimalist design of my 3. Guess I’m for either having almost nothing or going overboard lol.


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## Love (Sep 13, 2017)

Thanks @Needsdecaf ! I wondered about that "wart" not being a clock after all but some sort of "Porsche thing"...I appreciate the reply! I think you're right that those screen images are highly customizable and won't have to be all redundant and cluttered looking. I definitely want to see more pics and would love to see one in person! Also just feel like adding that I didn't mean to come off negative about the Taycan in my posts. Not yet at least, lol! We need to see more!


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## Needsdecaf (Dec 27, 2018)

Lovesword said:


> Thanks @Needsdecaf ! I wondered about that "wart" not being a clock after all but some sort of "Porsche thing"...I appreciate the reply! I think you're right that those screen images are highly customizable and won't have to be all redundant and cluttered looking. I definitely want to see more pics and would love to see one in person! Also just feel like adding that I didn't mean to come off negative about the Taycan in my posts. Not yet at least, lol! We need to see more!


No worries, I certainly didn't take it that way.. and if I did, who cares! Lol. As a Porsche owner and fan of this car, and a fan of my Model 3 as well, there is a good bit of inside baseball behind why this car is the way that it is. For instance the dash still harkens back to the traditional 911 5 dial with center tach layout that has reigned supreme for 50 plus years.

I love this kind of discussion with any interesting brand. Always glad to share the knowledge.


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## SR22pilot (Aug 16, 2018)

I suspect the Taycan will be a very good car albeit expensive. It will bring in a new group of EV owners and that is a good thing. If well executed (I expect it will be) it will forever alter the image of an EV. I know Tesla has changed things but I think Porsche will push that further. I love the original styling. The final styling reminds me of the Panamera which I find OK but not exceptional as opposed to the Cayman which I really like. The interior is what most companies are doing i.e. a step in the right direction but not far enough. It reminds me of the Blackberry which added features and had updates but lacked the general flexibility of the iPhone.


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## Needsdecaf (Dec 27, 2018)

Yes, it will be quite expensive. Supposedly shooting for somewhere between a Cayenne ($67k) and a Panamera ($87k). For the base model. Suspect the “Turbo” will be about $120k starting. 

Expensive. Especially since I expect range and performance to be comparable, or slightly less, than a M3 Performance. But it will be a much more solidly engineered car than the Model 3 or even the S. Is it worth that? Up to you. For many, no. It as you say, will bring in another new buyer. 

Unless the range sucks. I hope it doesn’t. Really hope.


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## Mesprit87 (Oct 29, 2017)

Needsdecaf said:


> Unless the range sucks. I hope it doesn't. Really hope.


When did you last looked at your fuel consumption on the 911? I know I sure don't. I expect the future Taycan customers to do the same, they will enjoy the performance and charge often to keep enjoying it.
I'm confident Porsche will have done it's homework when it hits the market.


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## Needsdecaf (Dec 27, 2018)

Mesprit87 said:


> When did you last looked at your fuel consumption on the 911? I know I sure don't. I expect the future Taycan customers to do the same, they will enjoy the performance and charge often to keep enjoying it.
> I'm confident Porsche will have done it's homework when it hits the market.


Lol, I look all the time but I just shrug it off. But range is way more important in an EV than fuel economy is in an ICE car as you know.

200 miles is enough for just day to day but in real world, in Winter, it'll Limit the car to a city car. And it's WAY far below the range of a Model S. Which is a major marketing gaffe.

It doesn't have to match the Model S range (it won't). But it's got to be at least 275 miles, IMO.


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## Needsdecaf (Dec 27, 2018)

Also, the ETron is really nice. But the range is barely over 200 miles. And it’s selling like crap.


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## Love (Sep 13, 2017)

Lovesword said:


> Definitely exciting to see more EVs come to market, especially one from a brand like Porsche and done "right" (made from the ground up, mostly? completely?) versus some conversion of an ICE vehicle with odd proportions, unused space and strangely shaped and situated batteries. I really hope it's successful and gets more people to make the switch! I can't wait to see one in person and thumbs up the owner!
> 
> I always get sick of the "Tesla versus..." crap that some news/media/websites seem to get stuck on. "Tesla killers", how does this compare to Tesla, will people switch from Tesla to Porsche, etc. I have to roll my eyes at all the clickbait articles out there like that.
> 
> ...


So excited to see the look of the Mission E carried over to production! Porsche's website is updated: Taycan link
What a beautiful looking car! Not enamored, personally, by the stats and the price tag (I'd have to go to the Taycan Turbo S at $185k to get those awesome rims), but I'm happy they're coming out with this car. I'm hopeful it will sell well!


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## Mr. Spacely (Feb 28, 2019)

Range on the $150,000 base model is "up to 250 miles" and they have no Supercharger network...


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## Love (Sep 13, 2017)

Mr. Spacely said:


> Range on the $150,000 base model is "up to 250 miles" and they have no Supercharger network...


And that 250 is WLTP... so, more like 223 "EPA" using the conversion math from InsideEVs. Not. Enamored.


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## garsh (Apr 4, 2016)

It will sell to some existing Porsche owners, and give them a first taste of EV ownership.


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## Needsdecaf (Dec 27, 2018)

OK people, I'm a Porsche fanboy. I own two Porsches. I subscribe to a very expensive quarterly magazine dedicated specifically to Porsche. And I'm here to tell you....

....the Taycan is a fail. 

WLTP Range of 280 miles means, what 250 Miles actual range? 

Yeah, the performance is sustainable. But I'm not tracking a 4 door sedan on a regular basis. 

Speaking of which, the curb weight is 5,100 pounds! 

But the biggest fail is when you get to the options list. 

You want 150kw fast charging on a 400V network? $500 please. 
Oh, you want a mobile charger? $1200 please

You want the fancy nav screen to actually figure out the route based on charging stations? 

$300 please. 

Oh wait, you want the fancy whooshing Star Trek sound? 

$500 please. 

That fancy powered charge port cover? 

$600


Fail. 

So basically a nicely equipped Turbo model, which has less performance than a Model S Performance. Has over 100 miles less EPA range, likely, costs in the neighborhood of $190k. 

I expected Porsche Tax. But not this much.


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## Needsdecaf (Dec 27, 2018)

Lovesword said:


> And that 250 is WLTP... so, more like 223 "EPA" using the conversion math from InsideEVs. Not. Enamored.


It's 280 WLTP.


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## Derik (Jul 26, 2017)

There are a lot of options for the car. Which I guess is the normal porsche route to go. 

There is one main thing that is bugging me about it....

Where is the turbo? I mean do they use it for the HVAC? Maybe they can simulate a convertible version without it being a convertible?


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## Love (Sep 13, 2017)

Needsdecaf said:


> It's 280 WLTP.


Correct, I do see the 280 WLTP (250ish EPA?) but I was replying to @Mr. Spacely who mentioned that the 280 is for the $185k version. The $150k version has a max range "up to 250" WLTP (223ish EPA).

I think it's a gorgeous car, and range is probably not a big concern for someone lining up to get this one. It just happens to be something that I put a higher value on and notice right off the bat. Still hopeful they do well and get more people into EVs!

Also, just saw your post about the additional items and their cost. Having no Porsche experience, I cringed at that... ugh.


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## Needsdecaf (Dec 27, 2018)

garsh said:


> It will sell to some existing Porsche owners, and give them a first taste of EV ownership.


It truly opens the market up at the top end and will put paid to all of the "EV's are not performance vehicles and have no soul" forever.

But at this price? Sorry, I will pass.


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## Needsdecaf (Dec 27, 2018)

Lovesword said:


> Correct, I do see the 280 WLTP (250ish EPA?) but I was replying to @Mr. Spacely who mentioned that the 280 is for the $185k version. The $150k version has a max range "up to 250" WLTP (223ish EPA).
> 
> I think it's a gorgeous car, and range is probably not a big concern for someone lining up to get this one. It just happens to be something that I put a higher value on and notice right off the bat. Still hopeful they do well and get more people into EVs!
> 
> Also, just saw your post about the additional items and their cost. Having no Porsche experience, I cringed at that... ugh.


Porsche is notorious for option grabs / gouging. I can forgive them for leather this, wheels that, lighting, screens, etc.

I cannot forgive them for making any of the EV process optional. The car should have the highest charging capacity standard, and come with all gear and software to make it function as a true EV. I mean, come on.


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## TrevP (Oct 20, 2015)

Hilarious dude going over the Taycan interior.. I'm dying


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1169306095384518661


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## Love (Sep 13, 2017)

TrevP said:


> Hilarious dude going over the Taycan interior.. I'm dying
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1169306095384518661


Find someone that talks about you the way this man talks about this car! Wow!


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## Needsdecaf (Dec 27, 2018)

That’s Alex Roy, of the M5 cannonball fame. Works for Argos AI and is a Model 3 owner. He’s definitely having a good laugh here.


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## MelindaV (Apr 2, 2016)

Needsdecaf said:


> But the biggest fail is when you get to the options list.


is that different than any other model they sell though? sounds the same as how most luxury Euro brands price their cars.


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## garsh (Apr 4, 2016)

Porsche Taycan is here: 0-60 mph in 2.6 sec, 750 HP, good looks with a 911 price tag

_The Taycan Turbo has a power consumption of 25.7-24.5 kWh/100 km under the WLTP_​
That's about *400 W•h per mile*. And this is computed against Europe's WLTP. So EPA rating will probably be over 500 W•h per mile.

While the Taycan seems to be the most serious electric car outside of a Tesla, we see that Tesla has a HUGE lead in EV efficiency.

[EDIT - fixed my math. Thanks iChris93!]


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## Love (Sep 13, 2017)

Needsdecaf said:


> That's Alex Roy, of the M5 cannonball fame. Works for Argos AI and is a Model 3 owner. He's definitely having a good laugh here.


OH man!!!! Rats! lol. I really fell for that one and was loving the idea of someone loving it so much and talking through his review like that! I even showed my wife and I laughed again (she politely smirked). "OH yess... yessss... so beautiful porsche taycan so sexy porsche taycan"


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## garsh (Apr 4, 2016)

That $151k base price doesn't include a Mobile Charger.
Furthermore, you can't order the car without one.
So... how is $151k the base price then?

And YIKES!, that's one expensive EVSE!


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## garsh (Apr 4, 2016)

Here's the ACTUAL current base price for a Taycan: $154,860
You're currently forced to add an EVSE ($1120) and panoramic roof glass ($1490).


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## iChris93 (Feb 3, 2017)

garsh said:


> Here's the ACTUAL current base price for a Taycan: $154,860
> You're currently forced to add an EVSE ($1120) and panoramic roof glass ($1490).
> 
> View attachment 28941


When is your delivery date?


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## Needsdecaf (Dec 27, 2018)

Yes, it's spendy.

I've slept on it overnight, and after getting called out on Instagram and also on Rennlist about "Porsche owners don't care about range, they care about performance" and that "range isn't a significant factor to the Turbo and Turbo S, they are 3rd and 4th and 5th cars to most buyers" I wanted to respond. I'm re-posting here because I like gaining the perspective of people who DO own and drive EV's. My post from Rennlist:



needsdecaf said:


> Regarding your statement on range, I do believe that range actually is important to the Taycan Turbo and Turbo S. Here me out.
> 
> I own two Porsches and an EV. In my wife's Cayenne diesel, I don't pay attention to range because at a minimum, one tank lasts 500 miles. In the 911 I don't pay attention to range or MPG because I don't take it on long trips or use it every day. I just don't pay it any mind. But in my EV? Different story. If you've owned or lived with an EV for some time, you will know that range is always important. You can't sacrifice range for performance. When I see GT car owners saying "I owned X car that got less than 200 miles a tank", I say, that's fine when you can pull into any town and get another 200 miles of range in 5 minutes. In an EV, not so much.
> 
> ...


My take is that people don't really know EV's that well, still. Oh they know OF them, but they don't know what it's like to live with them. I'm trying to combine the sentiments of a Porsche owner who buys a $200k GT3 and tracks it, and DOES have 3-6 cars, with that of someone who would actually drop $180k plus on a Taycan Turbo. There is a lot of middle ground to make up, and I'm trying to bridge it by bringing EV knowledge to the Taycan crowd.

There are quite a few Tesla owners on the Rennlist forum, and many of them are / were interested in the Taycan. We manage to have a normal discussion about EV's without Tesla fanboy-ing out but we still get called Tesla fanboys for constantly bringing up the Model 3 or Model S. But the bottom line is we know Tesla, we own Tesla and we know what they are about. Most of the guys who get down on Tesla have not owned them, may never have even driven or been in one, and read the FUD in the press. There is a long way to go.

By the way, my estimate of 30% of range was based on a Tesla Model 3 (and X and formerly another X and two S's) owner in the Bay area who has tracked his P3D at Laguna. He also owns a GT3 and tracks that as well. He and I have texted back and forth since the launch yesterday and discussed much of what I'm saying here. Porsche needs to appeal to the emotional, performance aspect of their cars in order to keep their core audience. And they have done that with the Taycan. But while the Taycan can do 0-200kph launches in the 2 dozen range, I keep saying "so what"? I can do at least 5 of them in my LRAWD and when am I even going to do that many ever? At the track? Ok, so the Taycan is a track monster for an EV, but what about GETTING TO the track and actually running the car? These are the things that Porsche buyers need to be educated on.

I gladly would take a Taycan with 0-60 of 3.75 seconds, 50 miles more of range, and the ability to ONLY do ten 0-200 kph launches in a row. LOL. I think if the 4S can deliver that for about $125k, then it's a compelling proposition vs. the Model S Performance at $105k, even if the Model S has more range and better performance.


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## iChris93 (Feb 3, 2017)

Needsdecaf said:


> Now deduct a little more for reality (no EV gets it's EPA rated highway range unless you cruise at 60) and you're looking at a realistic highway range of 180 miles cruising at 75-80 MPH.


I think it's wrong to say "no EV gets its EPA rated highway range unless you cruise at 60". With the LR RWD Model 3, and good weather, you can beat the EPA rated range at <80 MPH. In my opinion, weather plays a MUCH bigger role than speed.


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## FRC (Aug 4, 2018)

You can easily achieve the rated range in warm and dry weather. You CANNOT achieve that range in extreme cold and/or heavy rain.


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## garsh (Apr 4, 2016)

iChris93 said:


> I think it's wrong to say "no EV gets its EPA rated highway range unless you cruise at 60".


He had to simplify to get his point across. What he said is mostly true.

But also - have you _actually_ managed to get 325 miles at 80mph?



garsh said:


> An additional useful fact I learned on the last leg of this trip. There was one especially-long leg that I was able to make due to the availability of destination charging at Cornell, and lucky placement of a supercharger at the end of my car's range. Real-world, 70 mph useable range of my Performance Model 3 with OEM 20" wheels & tires is going to be about 245 miles. This was in about 80° F weather. I started off with a full 100% charge (last I checked, that now equates to 302 miles showing on my car), and arrived at the supercharger with 5% charge. Interestingly, the car was predicting I would arrive with 5% battery from the very beginning of the trip, all of the way to the end - I was very impressed by that. Remember folks, the 310 mile advertised range applies at about 60 mph - driving faster reduces that range.
> 
> https://abetterrouteplanner.com/?plan_uuid=36290234-5b83-4cb5-bb0b-b906f381839a
> 
> View attachment 28106


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## FRC (Aug 4, 2018)

garsh said:


> But also - have you _actually_ managed to get 325 miles at 80mph?


Only if it's significantly downhill!!


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## iChris93 (Feb 3, 2017)

garsh said:


> He had to simplify to get his point across. What he said is mostly true.


Mostly true but may give EVs a worse rap than they deserve. Weather is the killer!



garsh said:


> But also - have you _actually_ managed to get 325 miles at 80mph?


Well, I've never ran from 100 % to 0 % but I've had road trips where I set AP to 77 mph and get less than 240 Wh/mi.


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## iChris93 (Feb 3, 2017)

garsh said:


> Porsche Taycan is here: 0-60 mph in 2.6 sec, 750 HP, good looks with a 911 price tag
> 
> _The Taycan Turbo has a power consumption of 25.7-24.5 kWh/100 km under the WLTP_​
> That's about *400 kW•h per mile*. And this is computed against Europe's WLTP. So EPA rating will probably be over 500 kW•h per mile.
> ...


These are incorrect units, right? Should be Wh/mile not kWh/mile.


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## shareef777 (Mar 10, 2019)

Needsdecaf said:


> Yes, it's spendy.
> 
> I've slept on it overnight, and after getting called out on Instagram and also on Rennlist about "Porsche owners don't care about range, they care about performance" and that "range isn't a significant factor to the Turbo and Turbo S, they are 3rd and 4th and 5th cars to most buyers" I wanted to respond. I'm re-posting here because I like gaining the perspective of people who DO own and drive EV's. My post from Rennlist:
> 
> ...


In all fairness, everything you said trumping up the Tesla against the Porsche, can be said about an ICE against the Tesla (sustained performance, range, etc). At the end of the day, there will be those that will find SOME aspects of the Porsche they like more than a 3/S and therefore go for it.

Personally I thought I would never want another car outside my 3. Then Chevy showed their 2020 Corvette. What makes it better than my current 3? Nothing. But damn does it look nice!


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## shareef777 (Mar 10, 2019)

iChris93 said:


> Mostly true but may give EVs a worse rap than they deserve. Weather is the killer!
> 
> Well, I've never ran from 100 % to 0 % but I've had road trips where I set AP to 77 mph and get less than 240 Wh/mi.


On my trip to the east coast (800mi of highway driving) I always set the cruise to 75mph. Never got close to 240, from TeslaFi:

804.09 Miles
282 Wh/Mile
83.38 F


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## iChris93 (Feb 3, 2017)

shareef777 said:


> On my trip to the east coast (800mi of highway driving) I always set the cruise to 75mph. Never got closet o 240, from TeslaFi:
> 
> 804.09 Miles
> 282 Wh/Mile
> 83.38 F


Note, I am talking about the LR RWD. The range king.


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## MelindaV (Apr 2, 2016)

garsh said:


> And YIKES!, that's one expensive EVSE!
> 
> View attachment 28940


but it probably comes with a Porsche logo


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## garsh (Apr 4, 2016)

iChris93 said:


> These are incorrect units, right? Should be Wh/mile not kWh/mile.


Oh. Yeah. You're right.

_The Taycan Turbo has a power consumption of 25.7-24.5 kWh/100 km under the WLTP_​
Going through the math again...
(25 kWh)/(100 km)​(25,000 Wh)/(100,000 m)​(25 Wh)/(100 m)​((25 Wh)/(100 m)) * ((1609 m)/(1 mile))​(40,225 Wh)/(100 mile)​402 Wh per mile.​
Thanks for correcting me, @iChris93. Updated my original post.


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## Needsdecaf (Dec 27, 2018)

iChris93 said:


> I think it's wrong to say "no EV gets its EPA rated highway range unless you cruise at 60". With the LR RWD Model 3, and good weather, you can beat the EPA rated range at <80 MPH. In my opinion, weather plays a MUCH bigger role than speed.


Better than me.



FRC said:


> You can easily achieve the rated range in warm and dry weather. You CANNOT achieve that range in extreme cold and/or heavy rain.


Easily?



garsh said:


> He had to simplify to get his point across. What he said is mostly true.
> 
> But also - have you _actually_ managed to get 325 miles at 80mph?


Exactly.



FRC said:


> Only if it's significantly downhill!!


Yup.

I regularly do a Houston to Dallas run. The first leg is from my house on the North side of town to the Supercharger in Corsicana. It's slightly uphill overall (maybe like 200 feet in 160 miles) and much of the speed limit is 75, so I set the cruise at 80. On my last run, I did it using about 65% battery averaging 310 Wh/mile. I think the best I've done that particular leg is about 295. That gives me a real world range of 240 miles, pretty far off 310. And that was in hot, dry weather.


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## FRC (Aug 4, 2018)

Needsdecaf said:


> Easily?


Every Monday I drive a Meals on Wheels route and then go run errands for my Dad. Total trip is about 120 miles. About 50 miles is stop and go around town, 70 miles of 60 mph highway driving. This summer my average burn has been about 220 wh/m. And my car is a P3D. So yes, in warm and dry weather rated range is easy to achieve. At 80 mph you will NEVER achieve rated range, nor do I think you expect to.


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## Needsdecaf (Dec 27, 2018)

FRC said:


> Every Monday I drive a Meals on Wheels route and then go run errands for my Dad. Total trip is about 120 miles. About 50 miles is stop and go around town, 70 miles of 60 mph highway driving. This summer my average burn has been about 220 wh/m. And my car is a P3D. So yes, in warm and dry weather rated range is easy to achieve. At 80 mph you will NEVER achieve rated range, nor do I think you expect to.


Yes, highway range is what I was talking about in my post.

In looking at my month last month, I see a few days where I averaged 240 Wh/mile, and doing the calculations came up with a range just over 300 miles given the kWh used. But that's with a lot of stop / go and slower speed driving.

Texas is tough. Lot of big roads with high speed limits.


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## LucyferSam (Sep 13, 2017)

So while this car looks great and I'm sure is a lot of fun to drive (I'd gladly keep one if someone wanted to gift it to me, though it would not replace Blue Liion as my primary car), I'm a bit confused on where this ended up on price and the fact that no one in the press seems to be commenting on it... It was originally announced that it would be in the Panamera range leading people to assume a base price of 85-90k, but when it comes to launch only the turbo version appears to exist or even get talked about. Tesla would be crucified as massively misleading customers/investors/whoever with that kind of lead up vs launch price, yet I don't even see it mentioned? When they first talked about the Taycan all the automotive press people were talking about how it would have these amazing specs and be priced similarly to the Model S and therefor be huge competition to it, but starting at 150k+ I don't even see it in the same category as the S...


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## Needsdecaf (Dec 27, 2018)

OK, something is fishy in the numbers.

Porsche released this story yesterday: https://newsroom.porsche.com/en/201...gara-falls-road-trip-new-york-city-18578.html It's about driving the new Taycan from Niagra Falls to NYC. In it they state:

_"After a distance of 250 miles, and with 39 miles of remaining range, the Taycan stopped once for a top up charge, using one of the Electrify America charging stations located at Bloomsburg, PA. After a brief charge, which brought the battery up from 14 per cent to 85 per cent, taking 24 minutes, the remaining 158-mile journey took the Taycan into New York City for the first time. "_

Something is not adding up. Porsche has stated a 280 mile WLTP range. They've also stated a 432 Wh/mile average consumption. In order to do 290 miles with that consumption, you'd have to have a 125kWh USABLE pack (290*432 = 125,280 Wh) meaning the pack would have a larger actual capacity.

Porsche has stated the pack is 93 kWh, meaning that the usable range is maybe 88. If an 88 kWh pack can go 290 miles, that's 88/290 = .303 kWh/mile or 303 Wh / mile. That's an outstanding consumption, on par with my Model 3 LRAWD at an average 75 MPH. These numbers are straight from their press sheet. 450 km - 279 miles and 26.0 kWh / 100 km = 260 Wh / km = 418.4 Wh / mile.










I don't doubt that Porsche is telling the truth about their trip, which they say was NOT hypermiling, driving normal highway speeds, in traffic, even in rain. So how are they getting 289 miles of real world range, on the highway no less, with those reported numbers for consumption and WLTP range? The only thing I can think of is that those numbers are somehow VERY conservative.

Thoughts?


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## Needsdecaf (Dec 27, 2018)

LucyferSam said:


> So while this car looks great and I'm sure is a lot of fun to drive (I'd gladly keep one if someone wanted to gift it to me, though it would not replace Blue Liion as my primary car), I'm a bit confused on where this ended up on price and the fact that no one in the press seems to be commenting on it... It was originally announced that it would be in the Panamera range leading people to assume a base price of 85-90k, but when it comes to launch only the turbo version appears to exist or even get talked about. Tesla would be crucified as massively misleading customers/investors/whoever with that kind of lead up vs launch price, yet I don't even see it mentioned? When they first talked about the Taycan all the automotive press people were talking about how it would have these amazing specs and be priced similarly to the Model S and therefor be huge competition to it, but starting at 150k+ I don't even see it in the same category as the S...


I'm not sure if the Press is reporting on it or not, but the Porsche forum sure is up in arms over it. Here's my take:

Porsche was quoted that the car would be "priced between the Cayenne and the Panamera".

Later Alex Roy got an email from a dealer stating that the Base Taycan would be "low $90's", the Taycan 4S would be "high $90's" and the Taycan Turbo would be "over $130k".

The Cayenne Turbo currently retails for $125k and the Panamera Turbo for $155k.

When the pricing was announced, the Taycan Turbo is $150k. So closer to Panamera, but not far of the "split the difference" price between the two of $140k.

Up to that point, everything was jiving. But then Porsche threw a wrench in the works - the Turbo S. The Panamera Turbo S E-Hybird currently retails for $185k, the exact same price as the Taycan Turbo S. I think most people expected that the Taycan Turbo would be the top dog. No S. A Taycan Turbo, even at $150k, with the Turbo S specs is still somewhat "reasonable" in the face of a $105k loaded Model S Performance.

Time will tell with the base Taycan and the 4S. The base Cayenne is $65k and the base Panamera is $85k. For the base Taycan to be low $90's would suck.

The Cayenne S is $83k and the Panamera 4S is $105k. So high $90's for that car is within their structure.

The question is: how detuned in performance and range will the base and 4S be?


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## garsh (Apr 4, 2016)

Needsdecaf said:


> I don't doubt that Porsche is telling the truth about their trip, which they say was NOT hypermiling, driving normal highway speeds, in traffic, even in rain.


I see no mention of hypermiling (or not doing so), nor about what speed they were driving.



> The journey took place in real world conditions and with real world challenges - with sun, rain and traffic..


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## Needsdecaf (Dec 27, 2018)

garsh said:


> I see no mention of hypermiling (or not doing so), nor about what speed they were driving.


Looking at the route, it would be really tough to do all back roads. So assuming they took the highways. Also, Pete Stout, editor of 000 magazine, former editor of Panorama (Porsche Club magazine) and Excellence (Porsche specific monthly magazine) had a chat with one of the participants of the run who assured him no hypermiling was involved. I'll take that with a grain of salt but a small one. That's what I based that statement on.

But if true...


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## garsh (Apr 4, 2016)

Needsdecaf said:


> Looking at the route, it would be really tough to do all back roads. So assuming they took the highways.


"Highway" doesn't mean "interstate". They could have driven at normal highway speeds on a non-interstate route. That could explain the discrepancy.

https://goo.gl/maps/khfHUsYUvj1jp5X98


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## M3OC Rules (Nov 18, 2016)

Needsdecaf said:


> Ok, so the Taycan is a track monster for an EV, but what about GETTING TO the track and actually running the car?


Can I ask a dumb question? Why don't they install some high-speed charging at the track especially in the Bay area?


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## garsh (Apr 4, 2016)

M3OC Rules said:


> Can I ask a dumb question? Why don't they install some high-speed charging at the track especially in the Bay area?


To which "they" do you refer?
Tesla?
The owners of the track?
Tesla owners who race at the track?


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## Needsdecaf (Dec 27, 2018)

M3OC Rules said:


> Can I ask a dumb question? Why don't they install some high-speed charging at the track especially in the Bay area?


Not a dumb question. But as Garsh said, who will install? Would have to be track owners, likely. I suppose if enough Taycans are sold in the Bay Area, a group might push to do so.


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## MelindaV (Apr 2, 2016)

Needsdecaf said:


> OK, something is fishy in the numbers.
> 
> Porsche released this story yesterday: https://newsroom.porsche.com/en/201...gara-falls-road-trip-new-york-city-18578.html It's about driving the new Taycan from Niagra Falls to NYC. In it they state:
> 
> ...


are you saying the marketing group behind diesel-gate may be spinning the info to their benefit?!


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## Love (Sep 13, 2017)

Y'all remember when Jalopnik did a detailed post like this for Tesla? Yeah, me either...


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## bwilson4web (Mar 4, 2019)

Eventually a privately owned Taycan will be available for head-to-head testing with various Teslas. We'll start with the EPA metrics and then meet them on the drag strip and track. Time will tell.

Bob Wilson


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## BW984 (Nov 30, 2018)

The launch pricing of the Taycan really shocked me. After you pay $180k for the turbo S you still have to pay extra to get 400V charging, otherwise you are sitting 90+min at non 800v chargers. Want folding mirrors? Yep that's extra too. So now you are looking at $200k or 3x the price of a P3D for 220mi of real world range. Hopefully the base model will match the performance of the P3D at under 100k and then the car will have much more appeal to the masses.

I also hope this video does not represent the lag present in the production car. This is horrid, looks like a full second delay between when he is hitting the screen and the screen changing.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1169306095384518661


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## Needsdecaf (Dec 27, 2018)

I’m not worried about the lag. In using the systems in the new Panamera and Cayenne, it’s very responsive. The actual layout on the other hand....


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## Love (Sep 13, 2017)

Needsdecaf said:


> I'm not worried about the lag. In using the systems in the new Panamera and Cayenne, it's very responsive. The actual layout on the other hand....


Honestly, when I drive my wife's S I feel like it lags a bit too compared to my 3.


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## Bigriver (Jan 26, 2018)

Lovesword said:


> Honestly, when I drive my wife's S I feel like it lags a bit too compared to my 3.


S's and X's made before early 2018 have an older and slower processor for the touch screen. If hers was made before then, the lag is real. Model 3 touch screen speed is far superior.


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## JMON (Aug 21, 2016)

In the Tesla vs. Porsche debate there's other models to consider besides just the Taycan vs. Tesla Model S

Here's hoping that Elon Musk takes a Performance Model 3 to the Nuerburgring too :hearteyes:


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## RAS550 (Jul 28, 2018)

I (obviously) love the looks of my 3, and also like the Taycan's looks (not as good as Mission E but close). I thought I'll put some pictures side by side to show the similarities (front and rear) and where are different (profile, particularly the rear half).


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## Needsdecaf (Dec 27, 2018)

I have grown to "like" the looks of my Model 3. I think from some angles, it looks quite good (rear 3/4). From some angles it looks good (side, rear). Head on i think the low cowl and the huge glass makes it look very top heavy. 

The Taycan I expect to look way more aggressive and sporty in person. And it had better, given the price!


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## Needsdecaf (Dec 27, 2018)

Meanwhile, the Porsche vs. Tesla thing is heating up with the "Plaid Mode" Model S setting a fast time at Laguna, and an unknown model S prowling around the Nurburgring.


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## Mr. Spacely (Feb 28, 2019)

The Porsche and Model 3 show above don't look anything alike-- other than the color.


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## RAS550 (Jul 28, 2018)

Really? To me the front halves look very similar. The rear would too if Tesla had sacrificed rear seat headroom for sloping roofline. I am glad they didnt though.


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## Needsdecaf (Dec 27, 2018)

I think overall the shapes are similar. The general profile, the two-box look. The fastback rear section. Low nose, etc. But they are also quite different since the overall roofline is much lower. The DLO (daylight opening) is smaller, so the metal / glass ratio is more skewed to the glass. There are more pronounced front fenders and also more pronounced rear shoulders / hips . The rear shoulder line drops from the rear wheel back on the Taycan whereas on the Model 3 it's flat to slightly rising. That allows the Porsche's glass rear window to carry backward further. 

At the front, the hood slopes downward faster compared to the fenders, which allows the Taycan to get away from having the "bug catcher" that the Model 3 does. Interesting how they met pedestrian crash standards with that low of a nose; guess they must have kept the hard points underneath quite low. Or maybe they have a pyro to pop the hood upon impact? That's not uncommon.


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## blackeducator (Sep 13, 2017)

Apple and oranges here folks. TESLA Model 3 has a range of 310-325 miles. Taycan does not. It also costs lots more money‼ You can buy at least two or three Model 3s for the Taycan price❗And what about the super charging network I the US and Europe ❓And all the cool software updates and the romantic fireplace❓And summons and soon advance summons❓For those of you who obsess over knobs, dials, vents please go for the Taycan.


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## Needsdecaf (Dec 27, 2018)

blackeducator said:


> Apple and oranges here folks. TESLA Model 3 has a range of 310-325 miles. Taycan does not. It also costs lots more money‼ You can buy at least two or three Model 3s for the Taycan price❗And what about the super charging network I the US and Europe ❓And all the cool software updates and the romantic fireplace❓And summons and soon advance summons❓For those of you who obsess over knobs, dials, vents please go for the Taycan.


Uh, no one ever said they were the same car. Someone said that they looked the same. That's it.

Clearly they are different markets. Much different price point (although lower cost versions of the Taycan are coming, one that will be on par with the Model S). Different mission. It's a Porsche, not a Tesla.

But this sub-forum is for EV's other than Tesla. After all, Elon's stated mission is more EV's, period. And if someone as storied in sports cars as Porsche came out with a kick-ass performing EV, isn't that a good thing?

P.S. There are like two physical buttons on the dash of the Taycan that isn't the shifter.


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## RAS550 (Jul 28, 2018)

blackeducator said:


> Apple and oranges here folks. TESLA Model 3 has a range of 310-325 miles. Taycan does not. It also costs lots more money‼ You can buy at least two or three Model 3s for the Taycan price❗And what about the super charging network I the US and Europe ❓And all the cool software updates and the romantic fireplace❓And summons and soon advance summons❓For those of you who obsess over knobs, dials, vents please go for the Taycan.


More like a fresh Apple bought from the farm (Tesla) , and a not so fresh Apple bought at Whole Foods after going through multiple layers of distribution thereby costing 3x more, not as fresh tasting and having lost some key nutrients (Taycan).

Price differences and technology content aside, they aren't entirely different beasts. Performance is actually quite close, and they look more than 50% similar.


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## Needsdecaf (Dec 27, 2018)

RAS550 said:


> More like a fresh Apple bought from the farm (Tesla) , and a not so fresh Apple bought at Whole Foods after going through multiple layers of distribution thereby costing 3x more, not as fresh tasting and having lost some key nutrients (Taycan).
> 
> Price differences and technology content aside, they aren't entirely different beasts. Performance is actually quite close, and they look more than 50% similar.


Disagree on both points.

I (and others) have been harsh on Porsche (and VAG) regarding range. I am now (may be) walking back some of that criticism since it would appear that a Taycan may have a 285 mile range using range mode, as I have posted above.

Also, in looking at it from the perspective of an established automaker, Porsche's effort is pretty decent. You've got to realize how much internal resistance there is to overcome to clean sheet thinking. Yes, they have some pretty kludgy looking assemblies in terms of being streamlined, however remember the Germans like redundancy and safety factors. A 911 Turbo can do "unlimited" launch control starts with it's PDK transmission. Nissan voids the warranty on a GT-R if you do like more than 5. Different way of thinking. Hence the emphasis on "repeatable performance". Not to mention they've not completely freed their thinking yet to think as out of the box as Tesla does on how to save efficiency. Remember, this is their first EV. They are learning. They likely made it quite conservative. And they came with a good effort, as I said. Certainly not some Panamera with batteries and an electric motor. It's definitely ground up.

It's not a Model S competitor. It's a competitor to the Panamera Turbo S E Hybrid and the 911 Turbo S. A Porsche is expensive, and yes in most cases too expensive, but there is a palpable quality in the products that is not present in the Teslas. Even at Model S price point. You can feel it when you get in the car. A Porsche just drives with more precision. Period. Matt Farrah of The Smoking Tire just had a Ferrari 812 Superfast back to back with a GT3 RS as press testers (lucky bastard). His comments were very telling. Even though the Ferrari is, indeed, Super Fast, and even though it is a very, very good car, it lacks the precision that the Porsche has. The millimeter perfect feel that you experience through the controls. There is a palpable difference, even to a Ferrari with possibly the best V12 engine ever made and a base price of over $300k.

They are different experiences. The Tesla S is an amazing car, as is the 3. Both do the same things. But they do them differently. The Tesla focuses on removing as many distractions as possible. From the lack of buttons, to the GPS homelink, etc. It sill is sporty and a very entertaining drive, but that's not it's core focus. It's definitely a secondary focus, though.

But it IS the core focus of the Porsche. And it will show. And that's not a bad thing at all.


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## Love (Sep 13, 2017)

I've knocked some things about the Taycan too, in this thread even. But i've listened to others opinions, like @Needsdecaf here and others elsewhere online and have come around a bit ...and to this final point: we should all be happy and excited that there is another EV on the road from another car manufacturer. We can compare it, dissect it, and talk to death about what it competes with and what it doesn't ...but in the end, it's another compelling, beautiful looking EV on the road that _might_ take away a few Tesla sales, but will _DEFINITELY _take away ICE sales! 😃
Kudos to Porsche for doing this!

Can't wait for other companies to follow suit and step up to the plate. Not holding my breath for them, lol.


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## $ Trillion Musk (Nov 5, 2016)

While we all should applaud Porsche for their efforts in producing the Taycan... well it just got destroyed by Tesla Model S Plaid.

Here's to hoping that the rest of the car industry catches up to Tesla, which would be great for all of us!

https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-model-s-nurburgring-lap-time-vs-porsche-taycan/


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## RAS550 (Jul 28, 2018)

Needsdecaf said:


> Disagree on both points.
> 
> I (and others) have been harsh on Porsche (and VAG) regarding range. I am now (may be) walking back some of that criticism since it would appear that a Taycan may have a 285 mile range using range mode, as I have posted above.
> 
> ...


First of all, I am not dissing Porsche on performance or looks. I think it is a good looking car with great Performance.

However, so is a 3P if you have driven one - the precision, balance and neutral handling are all there and every bit as good as Porsche (or better). Check out Tesla forums and videos by Jad Duncan who is a former Porsche instructor and has been tracking his 3P.

And so is the Plaid S - the prototype has already crushed the Taycan Turbo S 'ring time in heavy traffic as of today. Can't wait for an officially timed run.


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## RAS550 (Jul 28, 2018)

Lovesword said:


> I've knocked some things about the Taycan too, in this thread even. But i've listened to others opinions, like @Needsdecaf here and others elsewhere online and have come around a bit ...and to this final point: we should all be happy and excited that there is another EV on the road from another car manufacturer. We can compare it, dissect it, and talk to death about what it competes with and what it doesn't ...but in the end, it's another compelling, beautiful looking EV on the road that _might_ take away a few Tesla sales, but will _DEFINITELY _take away ICE sales! 😃
> Kudos to Porsche for doing this!
> 
> Can't wait for other companies to follow suit and step up to the plate. Not holding my breath for them, lol.


I would gladly welcome another EV that takes away ICE sales. Unfortunately, The Taycan won't be it based on pricing and range limitations. Maybe the VW ID.3. We shall see.


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## Needsdecaf (Dec 27, 2018)

Lovesword said:


> I've knocked some things about the Taycan too, in this thread even. But i've listened to others opinions, like @Needsdecaf here and others elsewhere online and have come around a bit ...and to this final point: we should all be happy and excited that there is another EV on the road from another car manufacturer. We can compare it, dissect it, and talk to death about what it competes with and what it doesn't ...but in the end, it's another compelling, beautiful looking EV on the road that _might_ take away a few Tesla sales, but will _DEFINITELY _take away ICE sales! 😃
> Kudos to Porsche for doing this!
> 
> Can't wait for other companies to follow suit and step up to the plate. Not holding my breath for them, lol.


They are coming. Very soon now. Polestar 2, VW ID3, Merc GQC will all be here inside the next 12 months. More following. Exciting times for EV fans!



RAS550 said:


> First of all, I am not dissing Porsche on performance or looks. I think it is a good looking car with great Performance.
> 
> However, so is a 3P if you have driven one - the precision, balance and neutral handling are all there and every bit as good as Porsche (or better). Check out Tesla forums and videos by Jad Duncan who is a former Porsche instructor and has been tracking his 3P.
> 
> And so is the Plaid S - the prototype has already crushed the Taycan Turbo S 'ring time in heavy traffic as of today. Can't wait for an officially timed run.


I've driven a Model 3 P, several times. I own it's little brother, the LRAWD. I've put 20k miles on it in 8 months. I also own two Porsches, a 911 and a Cayenne. The Model 3 is not a Porsche. Please believe me when I say this. I mean no disrespect to the Tesla. What they have achieved is mighty impressive. But it's just not on the same level as a Porsche. I swear, I am not trying to be some kind of snob so I really hope I don't come across that way. There are differences between the two.

1. Seats. The Model 3 seats are terrible for a performance car. Absolutely no lateral support. This is a big deal when trying to extract performance from a car. My VW GTI had more supportive seats. So does my wife's Cayenne. I can't even take the roundabout leaving my neighborhood at 30 without getting thrown into the center console every morning. 
2. Brakes. The model 3 brakes, even the upgraded ones in the M3P, are not track ready. Most of the track driven Model 3's I have seen have had, at the least, upgraded pads. Some have had upgraded calipers / rotors. Is Jad's car modified? 
3. Suspension. The Model 3's suspension isn't that sophisticated. It's not that well controlled over harsher pavement. It is good, but not great.
4. Steering. This is where the Model 3 gets closest. Very quick steering and very precise. However it's relatively numb when communicating feedback compared to Porsche's latest EPS in the 991.2 and Panamera.

Yes, the M3P is doing well against traditional ICE sports cars. Autocross is where it will naturally have the best advantage, given its precision and super fast responses. On longer tracks, like Laguna, it trails more dedicated performance cars. The Model 3 Performance is an astounding performance EV.

I am extremely impressed at Tesla's accomplishments at the 'Ring with the Plaid Model S. But keep in mind, that's on Cup 2 R's, which is original equipment on the GT2RS. Also, the Model S is stripped out completely. The Taycan is a production model, modified for a 'Ring attempt with a cage. So there's a long way to go before we are comparing apples to apples. But I am thrilled at the raw pace that the prototype is carrying. Bodes well for the future.



RAS550 said:


> I would gladly welcome another EV that takes away ICE sales. Unfortunately, The Taycan won't be it based on pricing and range limitations. Maybe the VW ID.3. We shall see.


Sure it will, it just won't take that many of them since it'll steal them from Panamera and 911 Turbo buyers (and maybe some Audi A8 buyers too?). A small market to be sure. But it'll be stealing ICE buyers, not Model S buyers, IMO.


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## RAS550 (Jul 28, 2018)

Needsdecaf said:


> They are coming. Very soon now. Polestar 2, VW ID3, Merc GQC will all be here inside the next 12 months. More following. Exciting times for EV fans!
> 
> I've driven a Model 3 P, several times. I own it's little brother, the LRAWD. I've put 20k miles on it in 8 months. I also own two Porsches, a 911 and a Cayenne. The Model 3 is not a Porsche. Please believe me when I say this. I mean no disrespect to the Tesla. What they have achieved is mighty impressive. But it's just not on the same level as a Porsche. I swear, I am not trying to be some kind of snob so I really hope I don't come across that way. There are differences between the two.
> 
> ...


When you make statements like "Model 3 is not Porsche" you do come across as a brand snob. I've driven Porsches, including a 911 Turbo and a Macan GTS. The 911 was a nice car and impressive. Macan GTS was absolute crap ('19 model) - mediocre handling and slow straight line performance.

However, I will believe more credible people. Jad is one of them and his car is not modified. So is Nico Rosberg, and as are many other automotive reviewers/vloggers (Randy post). On Autocross, he beat every single race prepped Porsche. On longer tracks, he still beat most Porsches.

The 3P will beat most 911s on the street and most tracks. Definitely 911 S/GTS. Maybe not the 911 Turbo/GT2 on longer tracks but that is gearing, nothing to do with handling or balance that have traditionally been Porsche's strengths. Also even on longer tracks like the 'ring, per Elon, the 3P come will very close to Taycan Turbo S - see his latest tweet.

Sorry, I understand you love your Porsches and I'm sure there are good reasons but statements like "Porsche has the heritage and knows how to make better performance cars than anyone else" are fast losing credibility. You can only sell for so long based on the past.


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## Needsdecaf (Dec 27, 2018)

You're entitled to take it how you will, but I still maintain that you're taking it the wrong way. I could say the same thing about BMW (well, at least some BMW's of the recent past, they have lost their way) and quite a few modern Mercedes. A few Audi's. Sportier Lexus'. There are many examples. Quite simply, Tesla does not put the same amount of quality into much of their running gear that those brands do. I think if you asked most professionals, they wouldn't dispute that. 

I understand why, they don't have to. They have superior EV drivetrains that can overcome the difference in performance. And what they excel in is HARDER. As everyone is now finding out, making a more efficient EV drivetrain is harder than making a nice interior, or making a quality suspension. That know-how has been around for years. Tesla doesn't have the resources to spend on much of that stuff. And again, a lot of it is covered up by the drivetrain superiority of the Tesla. All of automotive manufacturing is a compromise, otherwise cars would be hideously expensive. There's a reason that the Taycan cost almost 100% more than a Model S Performance, and it isn't just the "Porsche Tax". There are real advantages there.

I'll give you an example. When we bought my wife's Cayenne, we were also looking at the nearly identical VW Touareg. Same engine and transmission, same basic body. Same suspension save tuning. Sure the Porsche had more stuff and you could get even more crazy options (famous Porsche wish list which is ridiculous). But even my super-conservative practical wife, who is not a car person, could tell the difference between the two. And it was enough of a difference for her to willingly spend probably 25% more for the Porsche. And for her, it was despite the badge image. The difference is there, and it can be felt. 

I don't dispute that the Model 3 Performance is mighty impressive, nor am I scoffing at any of it's accomplishments. It's an astonishingly good car, something I regularly espouse on the Porsche forum. Its achievements are verifiable and impressive. But no car is perfect. Most especially Porsches. And definitely not Teslas either. Each one has it's strong and weak points. And there are going to be things the Taycan does better than a Model S. No matter what the 'Ring time says.


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## RAS550 (Jul 28, 2018)

Needsdecaf said:


> You're entitled to take it how you will, but I still maintain that you're taking it the wrong way. I could say the same thing about BMW (well, at least some BMW's of the recent past, they have lost their way) and quite a few modern Mercedes. A few Audi's. Sportier Lexus'. There are many examples. Quite simply, Tesla does not put the same amount of quality into much of their running gear that those brands do. I think if you asked most professionals, they wouldn't dispute that.
> 
> I understand why, they don't have to. They have superior EV drivetrains that can overcome the difference in performance. And what they excel in is HARDER. As everyone is now finding out, making a more efficient EV drivetrain is harder than making a nice interior, or making a quality suspension. That know-how has been around for years. Tesla doesn't have the resources to spend on much of that stuff. And again, a lot of it is covered up by the drivetrain superiority of the Tesla. All of automotive manufacturing is a compromise, otherwise cars would be hideously expensive. There's a reason that the Taycan cost almost 100% more than a Model S Performance, and it isn't just the "Porsche Tax". There are real advantages there.
> 
> ...


BMW has definitely lost their way. I say it like it is in the BMW forums and am not popular there! Are there some things they do better? sure - richer interior material, slightly better seating (which is similar to what you'd say about a Cayenne/Panamera etc). Still Tesla has beaten them at their game which is high performance sports sedans. I am not afraid to admit that despite owning BMWs for last 15 years. They were great cars for their time, now they are not and I hold no attachment to the past.

Porsche has clearly done better in terms of electrification than BMW and the Taycan is evidence of that. However, track performance is not just Porsche's forte any more and they have been trounced by Tesla at it. The test mule wore similar tires to the Taycan, and similar CCBs. As to whether seats were gutted or not, we will see when there's an official post. Elon posted it was a 7 seater. And the Taycan wasn't stock either if you carefully read Porsche's CEOs words.

Nothing to be particularly ashamed of for Porsche BTW, every other manufacturer including BMW M, AMG is behind the curve when it comes to Tesla. This is what these manufacturers need to understand or they will be history soon. FWIW Porsche gets it better than others, but they are still playing catch up.

Also side note - there have been two types of Porsche's the drivers ones ((911, 718) and then there's others for those after a luxury ride and badge. Porsche wants you to believe that all their cars are sports cars - with all due respect, the Macan, Cayenne and Panamera are far from that. Plenty of rich interior material but far from true performance cars.


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## racekarl (Jul 31, 2018)

> Can't wait for an officially timed run.


As far as I know there is no such thing as an "officially timed run" for production cars at the Nurburgring, or really any track for that matter. "Official" lap times come with the imprimatur of a sanctioning body, usually during a race or supporting session. I do not believe there is any sanctioning body that tracks production car bragging rights lap times. Probably the closest you'll get is Car and Driver's Lightning Lap.


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## RAS550 (Jul 28, 2018)

racekarl said:


> As far as I know there is no such thing as an "officially timed run" for production cars at the Nurburgring, or really any track for that matter. "Official" lap times come with the imprimatur of a sanctioning body, usually during a race or supporting session. I do not believe there is any sanctioning body that tracks production car bragging rights lap times. Probably the closest you'll get is Car and Driver's Lightning Lap.


Some tracks like Laguna Seca do have officially timed runs.

With the 'ring, the official time is generally self-reported by the manufacturer. It would be done in a closed session and not using a handheld stopwatch. That said, there are publications like Sport Auto that do third party tests - Horst von Saurma was the driver that has tested many many performance cars there. He is retired from Sport Auto now but still does these tests independently.

Car and Driver is pay to play and has absolutely no credibility.


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## M3OC Rules (Nov 18, 2016)

Needsdecaf said:


> Not a dumb question. But as Garsh said, who will install? Would have to be track owners, likely. I suppose if enough Taycans are sold in the Bay Area, a group might push to do so.


Seems like the tracks would have an interest in having one there assuming they make money off track days but it looks like Tesla installed a supercharger at Nurburgring.
https://electrek.co/2019/09/18/tesla-supercharger-station-nurburgring/


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## garsh (Apr 4, 2016)

And from Tesla themselves:


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1174382659058962432


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## MelindaV (Apr 2, 2016)

RAS550 said:


> First of all, I am not dissing Porsche on performance or looks. I think it is a good looking car with great Performance.
> 
> However, so is a 3P if you have driven one - the precision, balance and neutral handling are all there and every bit as good as Porsche (or better). Check out Tesla forums and videos by Jad Duncan who is a former Porsche instructor and has been tracking his 3P.
> 
> And so is the Plaid S - the prototype has already crushed the Taycan Turbo S 'ring time in heavy traffic as of today. Can't wait for an officially timed run.


And the Plaid S is actually a lemon return car, so there is that too.


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## garsh (Apr 4, 2016)

MelindaV said:


> And the Plaid S is actually a lemon return car, so there is that too.


I had to search a little to find out what you were talking about.

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1171982794622406657

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1171992382235009026


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## MelindaV (Apr 2, 2016)

see, not all lemons are bad


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## $ Trillion Musk (Nov 5, 2016)

MelindaV said:


> see, not all lemons are bad


Recycling at its best!


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## MelindaV (Apr 2, 2016)

makes you wonder what thing the original owner was complaining about that caused the buy back, and if they know 'their' car has now made history.


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## Needsdecaf (Dec 27, 2018)

The image of the Taycan driving by the Model S being picked up by a towtruck was not good. 

I won't repost it. Seen it too many times.


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## Love (Sep 13, 2017)

I’m hating this whole Tesla versus Porsche crap. 
I’m a sucker I suppose...hoping for the best in people. I’m just adverse to the conflict as I see no gain in it. I hate all the negativity and truly don’t understand how people, who most likely would have a civil conversation with one another in person, get a keyboard in front of them and a bit of anonymity and become so hostile towards one another. I’m pretty new to social media and knew it was toxic before I even joined... but it’s just so ugly and depressing. 
Also seems like a lot of the media is getting exactly what they wanted. EV versus EV... ridiculous, and sad.


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## Needsdecaf (Dec 27, 2018)

Yeah. To be honest, there is a Porsche vs. Tesla at the 'Ring thread on Rennlist that's, for the most part, quite Civil. But there are a few haters, and I do mean hate, who are cheering seeing that image. And more importantly, are outraged at "Tesla blowing smoke", "publicity stunt", etc. Some people cannot separate their hate for Elon with anything else related to Tesla.

Eventually I got tired of it. I had it when I read this:



> Its a reflection of the whole culture - Porsche clearly has the upper hand and has the integrity to play it straight. Thats what speaks volumes. How much capital has Tesla burned, seriously do you want me to point it out for you.................................


My response was:



> Right. Porsche, the company that brought you Dieselgate, failed IMS bearings, exploding cooling lines, etc. That paragon of integrity.
> 
> No company is infallible.
> 
> It's not a reflection of the whole culture. Twitter is not real life. Go out and meet some Tesla employees and owners in real life. Or at least those outside of California. Then come back and tell me that Elon's nonsense is the whole company.


People really get riled up by Elon and his antics. And they can't separate the wheat from the chaff and see Tesla's accomplishments and what it has meant to the entire auto industry.

I've no doubt that even though the Taycan lacks range, it will be an absolutely fantastic car to own and drive. Not sure why people on the other side of the Tesla fence can't say the same about Teslas. 
.


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## RAS550 (Jul 28, 2018)

Needsdecaf said:


> The image of the Taycan driving by the Model S being picked up by a towtruck was not good.
> 
> I won't repost it. Seen it too many times.


Do you mean not good in a "Tesla is not good enough, Porsche's would never need a tow truck" way?

Or not good as in "doesn't look good on Porsche and it's fans that this image is the best they can do when the Taycan doesn't quite measure up"

Not entirely clear from your message.


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## RAS550 (Jul 28, 2018)

Lovesword said:


> I'm hating this whole Tesla versus Porsche crap.
> I'm a sucker I suppose...hoping for the best in people. I'm just adverse to the conflict as I see no gain in it. I hate all the negativity and truly don't understand how people, who most likely would have a civil conversation with one another in person, get a keyboard in front of them and a bit of anonymity and become so hostile towards one another. I'm pretty new to social media and knew it was toxic before I even joined... but it's just so ugly and depressing.
> Also seems like a lot of the media is getting exactly what they wanted. EV versus EV... ridiculous, and sad.




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1174899941056995328


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## Needsdecaf (Dec 27, 2018)

RAS550 said:


> Do you mean not good in a "Tesla is not good enough, Porsche's would never need a tow truck" way?
> 
> Or not good as in "doesn't look good on Porsche and it's fans that this image is the best they can do when the Taycan doesn't quite measure up"
> 
> Not entirely clear from your message.


The former.


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## RAS550 (Jul 28, 2018)

Porsches are known for serious engine issues - here's just one example - *at least 1 in 8 early 997 engines had catastrophic engine failures*.

https://rennlist.com/forums/997-forum/634966-997-engine-reliability.html

These were real production Porsche cars. The Plaid is an early prototype. Enough said.


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## Needsdecaf (Dec 27, 2018)

RAS550 said:


> Porsches are known for serious engine issues - here's just one example - *at least 1 in 8 early 997 engines had catastrophic engine failures*.
> 
> https://rennlist.com/forums/997-forum/634966-997-engine-reliability.html
> 
> These were real production Porsche cars. The Plaid is an early prototype. Enough said.


No need to get defensive. All automakers have their issues. I could tell you more about Porsches, from head studs backing out, water pipes coming unglued, GT3 engine fires, and the dreaded IMS. Tesla, given their simplicity, has had fewer challenges. But people perceive this as a big stunt by Tesla, and the image of the Model S being passed by the Taycan while waiting for a tow truck just adds fuel to the FUD fire. Hence the reason I said I wouldn't post it.


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## Needsdecaf (Dec 27, 2018)

Taycan reviews in.

Updated 9/24/19

Videos

Alex on Autos guest for TFL Car - Preview






Motorweek Quick Spin:






Taycan 0*-100 charging
* - the first part of the charge got messed up by a car on the adjacent charger.






Auto Express






Mr. JWW






TFL Car Driving






What Car






Autocar






Reviews

Jalopnik - https://jalopnik.com/the-electric-2...campaign=socialflow_jalopnik_facebook&sfns=mo

Road and Track - https://www.roadandtrack.com/new-ca...20-porsche-taycan-turbo-s-first-drive-review/

Car and Driver - https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/a28662827/2020-porsche-taycan-prototype-ride/

Top Gear - https://www.topgear.com/car-reviews/porsche/taycan

Car - https://www.carmagazine.co.uk/car-reviews/porsche/taycan-ev/

Evo - https://www.evo.co.uk/porsche/porsc...view-stuttgart-puts-its-stamp-on-the-electric

Motor 1- https://www.motor1.com/features/368833/2020-porsche-taycan-review-ride/

Auto Express - https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/porsche/taycan

Autocar - https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/porsche-taycan-specs-sale-date-performance


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## Mesprit87 (Oct 29, 2017)

Good work @Needsdecaf getting all of these.
I too think it's a plus for the EV world that porsche got in the market. We can't expect them to win on every front but they have their foot in the door and it can only improve from there. I feel the same about the VW id but I don't get why it won't come across the pond considering how many eGolf they sold. Maybe they're afraid they won't be able to supply them fast enough, who knows.
Wish I had a green option when I ordered my Tesla, wonder if Porsche offers paint to sample on these...not that I plan on buying one or have the money for one


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## Needsdecaf (Dec 27, 2018)

Thanks. I'm compiling this on Rennlist (Porsche forum). There have been quite the number of debates. Most people seem open to the EV's, some are Tesla haters. Many are just not that knowledgable and suck up the marketing spiel regarding rehcarge time, range, etc. To be fair, 12 months ago, I knew very little of the ins and outs of EV's. I try to educate, and most appreciate, but some accuse me (and others) of just being Tesla fanbois who can't stand to have Porsche "beat" Tesla. Have to keep reminding those knuckle-draggers that ALL EV fans win with this. This car is no "Tesla killer". IT doesn't directly align with any current Tesla. When the 4S comes, it will be the strongest competitor to the S, but the S is pretty damn old.

These reviews confirm what I have long suspected: the Taycan is a true Porsche, an excellent car overall and a solid, but not class leading, EV.

I've had a chance to chat with two acquaintances that were at the launch, and pick their brain regarding the presentation and Porsche's thinking. Porsche, in typical German and Porsche fashion, has erred on the conservative side regarding the EV powertrain. The 93 kWh pack has somewhere around 84 kWh effective. Furthermore, Porsche has chosen to differentiate the Turbo and Turbo S models by having the stronger inverter and inverter / motor connection on the front motor on the Turbo S. The Turbo has a weaker front inverter. Presumably so too would the 4S. Other facts - max quoted power is available in an "overboost" mode, which is available instantly, and only for less than 3 seconds. Non-overboost power, which is quoted, is still quite high though. Launch Control engages overboost, which shaves 0.2 sec from 0-60. Finally, let's not forget the two speed transmission. That is effectively locked in high gear in "Normal" and "Range" modes, and for Sport and Sport plus, has different maps of when it's used. Essentially, Porsche tries to use it for hard launches and when it detects you loafing, shifts up. See chart:










What another Porsche owner / enthusiast and 5 time Tesla owner and I have worked out is that it seems as if Porsche is using the Transmission to not only gain better higher speed acceleration than previous EV's, but also to gain the very fast 0-60 times WITHOUT having to dump massive current like the Model S does. They are likely doing this for durability. Porsche does not have the mountains of data that Tesla does, and is playing it safe. Or maybe they do have data and they can't figure out how to solve the "big fuse" problem to do such massive power dumps. Or, they just want to keep things cool and focus on repeat performance.

Either way, a different approach. Not wrong, or worse, just different. I say that because the range is reduced vs. Tesla, and the performance at low speeds is equal. The taycan has superior speed above 75 MPH. Not very necessary here, but in Europe, yes.

So here's a Model 3 charging on an Ionity charger vs. a Taycan. *Note that this is a tough comparison* as the pack sizes are different, so tapering will happen sooner. Plus, you're comparing battery % added. Not range added, since the consumptions are different.

0:00 Elapsed.
M3P - 10% Battery
Taycan - 9% Battery

5:00 Elapsed
M3P - 28%; 14.85 kWh added.
Taycan - 31% 21.08 kWh added

10:00 Elapsed.
M3P - 46% - 30.499 kWh added
Taycan - 47% - 33.88 kWh added

15:00 Elapsed.
M3P - 60% - 42.09 kWh added
Taycan - 62% - 47.02 kWh added

20:00 Elapsed.
M3P - 71% - 50.29 kWh added
Taycan - 75% - 59.2 kWh added

25:00 Elapsed.
M3P - 78% - 56.39 kWh added
Taycan - 82% - 67.15 kWh added

30:00 Elapsed
M3P - 84% - 60.76 kWh added
Taycan - 86%- 70.51 kWh added

35:00 Elapsed
M3P - 88% - 64.19 kWh added
Taycan - 89% - 74.05 kWh added

So definitely not half the rate of the Taycan.

A more apt discussion might be the Taycan (93kWh pack, 800V) vs. the Etron (93kWh pack, 400v). Results below. No kWh added as Bjorn did not post the Ionity charger screen, just the ETron charging screen:

0:00 Elapsed.
Etron - 10% Battery
Taycan - 9%

5:00 Elapsed
Etron -
Taycan - 31%

10:00 Elapsed.
Etron - 37% Battery
Taycan - 47%

15:00 Elapsed.
Etron - 51% Battery
Taycan - 61%

20:00 Elapsed.
Etron - 64% Battery
Taycan - 74%

25:00 Elapsed.
Etron - 78% Battery
Taycan - 83%

30:00 Elapsed
Etron - 87%
Taycan - 86%

35:00 Elapsed
Etron - 94%
Taycan - 88%

Videos:
Model 3 & Etron:





Taycan:





Definitely a worthy car to have in the EV market!


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## Mr. Spacely (Feb 28, 2019)

By
Dan Neil

The Wall Street Journal
Sept. 25, 2019 1:04 pm ET

*THE NEW PORSCHE* Taycan illustrates why internal-combustion is doomed. I mean, even setting aside the fact that the rest of the world and most of the major car makers are committed to electrification by about 2030 in an effort to fight climate change-they agree on that, too. And ignoring the $91 billion commitment by Volkswagen Group announced in 2018, including billions for charging infrastructure in the U.S. And absolutely turning a blind eye to China's air-quality emergency, which has prompted the world's most populous nation and largest car market to mandate vehicle electrification. Ditto for many of the Earth's largest cities. Don't even look at those market forces.

Internal-combustion is doomed because electric vehicles are better vehicles-superior mechanisms, richer and more desirable consumer experiences. And here they come: Meet Porsche's first all-electric car, the 2020 Taycan (rhymes with "icon" and is a neologism derived from the Turkik language, denoting the soul of a spirited young horse. People ask). Built on a Porsche-designed premium electric architecture, the Taycan is one of more than a dozen new electrics from Volkswagen Group reaching the market in the next four years, including several more from Stuttgart's luxury-performance legend.

In my estimation, the Taycan is twice the car of Porsche's Panamera, the brand's big IC-powered sedan, *if only five-eighths of a Tesla Model S*. But let's not go there yet.

I drove a Taycan Turbo ($153,510 base price) from Oslo to Gothenburg, Sweden, last week, as part of the first press drives. I can faithfully report the midsize sedan is a fully credentialed Porsche that drives like zero-depth torpedo, a whispering cheat of time and space. Just by the nature of the machine, the Taycan is hella quicker, quieter, and more precisely integrated than any IC-powered counterpart could be. The response time of the permanent-magnet electric motors can be as little as 2 milliseconds.

*If you were hoping the Swabians would rise up to punch Elon Musk in the nose, not a chance*. The Taycan Turbo and Turbo S get 237-280 miles combined range out of their 93.4 kWh battery pack, according to the European WLTP. Tesla's Model S Performance (95 kWH nominal) is rated 345 miles range. The Tesla is no bigger outside but more spacious inside; lighter by about 180 pounds (vs. Turbo S); quicker to 60 mph (2.4 seconds); and half the price.

The Taycan has an 800-volt architecture, with dual inverters, dual charge ports, and elaborate charging strategies, including a new network of hundreds of high-power charging stations in Europe and the U.S. But at the outset it is all seems scaled to compensate for the initial range disadvantage compared with Tesla.

Round one goes to the Champion. But it's going to be a long fight


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## Needsdecaf (Dec 27, 2018)

5/8's of a Model S? LOL.


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## BW984 (Nov 30, 2018)

I’m “pretty sure” I spotted my first Taycan in the wild two days ago. Beautiful back end and charging door on the front driver’s side fender. It was between Big Spring and Midland TX. I hope the owner is from the area because if they were traveling through they were going to have a bad time with the lack of charging infrastructure in Midland/Odessa. The reason I only think I saw one was because it was doing ~60mph in the right hand lane and I was doing 80mph in the left hand lane with the rest of traffic so it was a brief fly by. I love my TM3 to death but I still drive the F250 to Midland. The incredibly bad road quality in the area combined with the concentrated grouping of the worst and least experienced heavy truck driver’s in America are enough to keep the Tesla in the garage.


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## Needsdecaf (Dec 27, 2018)

BW984 said:


> I'm "pretty sure" I spotted my first Taycan in the wild two days ago. Beautiful back end and charging door on the front driver's side fender. It was between Big Spring and Midland TX. I hope the owner is from the area because if they were traveling through they were going to have a bad time with the lack of charging infrastructure in Midland/Odessa. The reason I only think I saw one was because it was doing ~60mph in the right hand lane and I was doing 80mph in the left hand lane with the rest of traffic so it was a brief fly by. I love my TM3 to death but I still drive the F250 to Midland. The incredibly bad road quality in the area combined with the concentrated grouping of the worst and least experienced heavy truck driver's in America are enough to keep the Tesla in the garage.


Interesting. If so, would have been a manufacturer car as customer cars haven't started delivery yet.


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## garsh (Apr 4, 2016)

Top Gear just compared the Porsche Taycan Turbo S and the Tesla Model S Performance (aka Raven).
It's actually a pretty good comparison, though it seems that the Tesla didn't perform as well in the drag race as it has for others.






I loved this tidbit of information. They calculated how far each vehicle could travel on the Autobahn at top speed.


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## Love (Sep 13, 2017)

garsh said:


> Top Gear just compared the Porsche Taycan Turbo S and the Tesla Model S Performance (aka Raven).
> It's actually a pretty good comparison, though it seems that the Tesla didn't perform as well in the drag race as it has for others.
> 
> 
> ...


At work so hard to watch the whole thing without drawing some boss side eye. Do they say that they used ludicrous mode on the S?


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## garsh (Apr 4, 2016)

Lovesword said:


> Do they say that they used ludicrous mode on the S?


No, unfortunately. They walk through the "launch" settings for the Porsche, but say nothing about preparing the Tesla.

They _did_ state that both cars were above 85% SOC.


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## Love (Sep 13, 2017)

garsh said:


> No, unfortunately. They walk through the "launch" settings for the Porsche, but say nothing about preparing the Tesla.
> 
> They _did_ state that both cars were above 85% SOC.


Thank you sir. I did watch just to the part of the Porsche winning before I cowardly closed it (lol) and posted my question. I kind of did expect it to eventually catch up and overtake the S, just not as fast as it did... which prompted my question.


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## Needsdecaf (Dec 27, 2018)

Thanks for posting. Looking forward to watching this at lunch.


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## $ Trillion Musk (Nov 5, 2016)

A P100D 0-60 of 2.68s? Ludicrous speed must have been turned off. The time should be somewhere between 2.28-2.4s for the Tesla.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fastest_production_cars_by_acceleration


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## garsh (Apr 4, 2016)

It appears that Top Gear has no journalistic integrity. 

They never obtained acceleration times of a Raven-equipped Model S Performance.
Brooks of Drag Times has discovered that Top Gear simply *copied* the results from an older test of a Model S P100D.






Here's a link to the test from which the values were copied:
https://www.topgear.com/car-news/top-gear-drag-races/tesla-model-s-and-merc-amg-e63-vs-stopwatch

Now, Top Gear did actually have a new Performance model at the track - it had the Dual Motor badges rather than a P100D badge.
But Brooks examined the video carefully (as he explains in the video above), and discovered that:

They did *not* enter the full Ludicrous Plus mode, where it asks if you "want your mommy".
They did *not* use launch control.
So that probably explains why the Performance couldn't beat the Porsche in a quarter mile drag race. But it certainly doesn't excuse them using timing numbers from a different, older version of the car.



garsh said:


> Top Gear just compared the Porsche Taycan Turbo S and the Tesla Model S Performance (aka Raven).
> It's actually a pretty good comparison, though it seems that the Tesla didn't perform as well in the drag race as it has for others.
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## garsh (Apr 4, 2016)

Brooks has posted a followup to the last video.
They ran various tests with a Raven Model S Performance, but were unable to reproduce results as bad as what Top Gear obtained.


----------



## Needsdecaf (Dec 27, 2018)

I posted this in a Porsche forum I am active on:



Needsdecaf said:


> After watching Brooks' latest video, I think my thoughts below are a good way to sum up the whole thing.
> 
> Top Gear video is suspect. The Tesla should be faster. Moreover, the .4 second difference doesn't translate to the video. Shenanigans
> 
> ...


I would add this:

We owe a lot to Tesla. They proved that EV's could be more than compliance cars. That they could be practical daily drivers and also, desirable and sold at a high price point. Without the success of the Models S, X and 3, there would be no Porsche Taycan.

Times are great to be an EV owner. We all win.


----------



## garsh (Apr 4, 2016)

Needsdecaf said:


> The Model S can't handle any kind of tracking either.


Is this still true? Has anybody tried to run one of the latest Raven models at the track? We see that the Plaid prototypes are now quite trackable. So Tesla has obviously upgraded the cooling system to handle track duties. But I haven't heard one way or the other about the current Raven models.

My understanding was that the rotors on an induction motor gets too hot. The Model 3 PM motor design doesn't suffer from this issue. So if the Model S Plaid actually uses 3 Model 3 motors, then that may be all that's necessary to solve the problem. But that that means that the current Raven versions will still suffer from this issue, since they still use an induction motor in the rear.


----------



## SR22pilot (Aug 16, 2018)

garsh said:


> Is this still true? Has anybody tried to run one of the latest Raven models at the track? We see that the Plaid prototypes are now quite trackable. So Tesla has obviously upgraded the cooling system to handle track duties. But I haven't heard one way or the other about the current Raven models.
> 
> My understanding was that the rotors on an induction motor gets too hot. The Model 3 PM motor design doesn't suffer from this issue. So if the Model S Plaid actually uses 3 Model 3 motors, then that may be all that's necessary to solve the problem. But that that means that the current Raven versions will still suffer from this issue, since they still use an induction motor in the rear.


I believe the front motor on the model 3 is induction. The rear on the Model S and X is induction and the front is the rear motor from the Model 3. I could be wrong but I think that i correct. You can shut off an induction motor but not a permanent magnet motor. When cruising at highway speeds, Tesla shuts off the induction motor.


----------



## MelindaV (Apr 2, 2016)

seems the Porsche is running into 8-10 week delays in their rollout:


Porsche email sent to Taycan buyer said:


> _"Taycan is our first fully electric sports car. The car is developed from scratch and manufactured in a brand new factory. All Porsche employees have worked with full pressure to start delivering Taycan as scheduled in January. Still, as a result of the enormous complexity surrounding the production of Taycan, we must report that unfortunately the delivery dates are somewhat delayed._
> 
> _We currently expect delays of around eight to ten weeks, and a new production time for your car will be communicated through your seller as soon as this is ready. We strongly apologize and guarantee that we will do everything we can to deliver your Porsche Taycan as soon as possible."_


_
https://insideevs.com/news/383171/porsche-taycan-delivery-delay/_


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## Needsdecaf (Dec 27, 2018)

EPA rating of 201 miles from 93kWh.

OUCH.

https://jalopnik.com/the-porsche-taycan-turbos-epa-range-of-201-miles-is-so-1840366884

But here's what makes me quizzical. Porsche knew it was bad enough they went out and commissioned a second, independent test, by AMCI. The AMCI Test I'm going to make an assumption and say that AMCI is a reputable company and that their testing protocol is legit. I have done zero research on this company and have not even Googled their website, but I'm going to trust that after dieselgate, Porsche's not going to hire some shady company to flub the numbers. That's just insane, and they're not that insane. So let's operate on the premise that somehow, a Taycan Turbo with an EPA rating that is good for 201 miles was able to travel* 275 miles *in a mixed city / highway test and *288 miles* in a city only test. Now I'm going to throw out the 288 miles in the city, since that's an extreme case (hypermiling if you will) as the city maximizes regen, minimizes aero losses, and also because the car was run in range mode with the A/C off, which is almost cheating. The mixed use test used Normal mode with Regen in Auto and the A/C in Eco. So just how in the sam hell do we get from 201 miles to 275 miles? THAT is the question. Because that's like saying that my Model 3, which is EPA rated for 310 miles, should somehow be able to get *424 miles *of range in AMCI's mixed conditions driving test. I can tell you right now....that isn't happening.

So why is the EPA test so hard on the Taycan vs. the Tesla? By looking at just the Taycan, we've eliminated all physical variables. AMCI said they used a normal Taycan with 20" wheels, 245/285. So a normal car. That means it should be the same car physically as the one going through the EPA test. No cheater wheels, skinny tires, taped up openings. So how is the car beating it's EPA range by nearly 37%? The answer has to be that something in the EPA test does not favor the driving mode setup of the Taycan. The EPA test protocol follows SAE J1634 May 1993 Recommended Practice, which I cannot find a copy of online without purchasing. Perhaps someone more internet savvy than I could find it. So I have no inkling what that is. But I do know that the EPA testing dictates what modes the car can be in, which may have something to do with it. It was stated above that the EPA testing uses a dyno which changes regen from real world, but again, if that were the case, the Tesla should similarly be able to beat it's EPA rating. But I don't know of any Tesla ownerbeating the EPA rating by 37%.

I strongly suspect that Porsche's lack of off-throttle regen is what's really killing them. The EPA test does a lot of lift and coast, and also a lot of accelerate and hold, and caps deceleration rates at a certain amount. Perhaps these are artificially low, and that by putting the Taycan in auto regen mode and driving more "normally" you get a lot more regen? I am not sure. But something is amiss here.


----------



## victor (Jun 24, 2016)

Needsdecaf said:


> EPA rating of 201 miles from 93kWh.
> 
> OUCH.
> 
> ...


SAE J1634
https://avt.inl.gov/sites/default/files/pdf/hev/htp003ra.pdf


----------



## Technical48 (Apr 29, 2018)

Needsdecaf said:


> Because that's like saying that my Model 3, which is EPA rated for 310 miles, should somehow be able to get *424 miles *of range in AMCI's mixed conditions driving test. I can tell you right now....that isn't happening.


Without knowing the test protocol this statement carries no weight. It could be that VAG is completely in the dark when it comes to BEV powertrain efficiency. At least, compared to Tesla.


----------



## Technical48 (Apr 29, 2018)

201 miles. It's like Porsche saw that Audi could make a $85k city car, so they upped the ante and made an even less capable $185k city car. Pathetic.


----------



## $ Trillion Musk (Nov 5, 2016)

Needsdecaf said:


> So how is the car beating it's EPA range by nearly 37%?


Perhaps the EV equivalent of dieselgate software... LiIongate?


----------



## bwilson4web (Mar 4, 2019)

I don't care except that we can finally get to fair track testing:

Drag strip
Edmunds style 'smack-down'
No more of these BBC nonsense 'clown' shows.

Bob Wilson


----------



## garsh (Apr 4, 2016)

Needsdecaf said:


> Because that's like saying that my Model 3, which is EPA rated for 310 miles, should somehow be able to get *424 miles *of range in AMCI's mixed conditions driving test. I can tell you right now....that isn't happening.


It's certainly possible if the speeds are kept low enough.

UPDATE #3: Tesla Model 3 Sets New Range Record At 606.2 Miles

The kept the speed between 20 and 30 mph for that effort. If AMCI's city cycle is simply 35 mph with some stop-and-go, I could see a LR Model 3 getting 424 miles.


----------



## Needsdecaf (Dec 27, 2018)

garsh said:


> It's certainly possible if the speeds are kept low enough.
> 
> UPDATE #3: Tesla Model 3 Sets New Range Record At 606.2 Miles
> 
> The kept the speed between 20 and 30 mph for that effort. If AMCI's city cycle is simply 35 mph with some stop-and-go, I could see a LR Model 3 getting 424 miles.


No hypermiling was involved. And I disregarded the city only test, for that reason plus the fact it was inEco with no AC.


----------



## SAronian (Apr 4, 2019)

Saw them at the LA Auto Show and the detail work was breathtaking.


----------



## Needsdecaf (Dec 27, 2018)

SAronian said:


> Saw them at the LA Auto Show and the detail work was breathtaking.


It had better be at the price!


----------



## garsh (Apr 4, 2016)

Needsdecaf said:


> No hypermiling was involved. And I disregarded the city only test, for that reason plus the fact it was inEco with no AC.


I tried to find some information about AMCI's testing methodology, but I couldn't find anything. If anybody can find that information, please post it.


----------



## Needsdecaf (Dec 27, 2018)

garsh said:


> I tried to find some information about AMCI's testing methodology, but I couldn't find anything. If anybody can find that information, please post it.


Nothing on what kind of route, etc., but here is what they published in case you didn't see the link to the article:

*AMCI TESTING CERTIFICATION OVERVIEW*
AMCI Testing's Certification protocol is based on the statistical imperative for unbiased, repeatable results:

The Taycan Turbo was driven over two specific routes: AMCI Testing's Certified City/Highway Route (commute simulation in Normal Mode) and AMCI Testing's Real-World City Route (city-driving simulation in Range Mode)
All driving was done during weekdays at the same time of day
The vehicle began each test cycle with its state-of-charge (SOC) indicator at 100%
It was operated on course until it entered its restricted-power "limp home" mode-which was considered the vehicle's terminal mileage for battery depletion
All accessory loads were held consistent during each testing cycle and headlights were set to "Auto"
Specific to the AMCI Testing City/Highway Route:

The Taycan Turbo was operated in Normal Mode with Regen set to "Auto" and HVAC to "ECO"
Driving was precisely coordinated at the speed of traffic up to and including the legal speed limit during city driving, and up to 5 MPH over the legal limit on highways
Specific to the AMCI Testing City Route:

The Taycan Turbo was operated in Range Mode with Regen set to "On" and HVAC to "Off"
Driving was precisely coordinated at the speed of traffic up to and including the legal speed limit
Here is the link not buried in my post above:

https://amcitesting.com/taycan/?sap...2___www.amcitesting.com/taycan&utm_content=EN


----------



## garsh (Apr 4, 2016)

Needsdecaf said:


> Nothing on what kind of route, etc., but here is what they published in case you didn't see the link to the article:
> 
> *AMCI TESTING CERTIFICATION OVERVIEW*
> AMCI Testing's Certification protocol is based on the statistical imperative for unbiased, repeatable results:
> ...


Yep, that's all I could find. It does a decent job of explaining how the vehicle was configured, but doesn't give _any_ useful information about the test itself.

I'm hoping to find something similar to what the EPA publishes:
https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/fe_test_schedules.shtml
They actually explain how the dyno is set up and used, and include a schedule of speeds vs time for each type of test, as well as other factors, such as limits on acceleration.


----------



## Needsdecaf (Dec 27, 2018)

garsh said:


> Yep, that's all I could find. It does a decent job of explaining how the vehicle was configured, but doesn't give _any_ useful information about the test itself.
> 
> I'm hoping to find something similar to what the EPA publishes:
> https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/fe_test_schedules.shtml
> They actually explain how the dyno is set up and used, and include a schedule of speeds vs time for each type of test, as well as other factors, such as limits on acceleration.


Yeah, I know what you're saying. Wish we had more. I wasn't sure if you had seen what I posted or not.

Still, I don't get it. There is enough anecdotal evidence to suggest that this AMCI test is fairly accurate (I have watched pretty much every major review on the Taycan as I am a Porsche fan). In particular, Porsche themselves drove the car from Niagra Falls to NYC and did something like a 250 mile run with 48 miles left indicated SOC when they stopped to charge. Supposedly that was in Normal mode, driving with the flow of traffic.

Now all of this and $4.75 will get you a cup of Starbucks but it seems very odd that the car would be able to exceed the EPA range by nearly 40%!! I still keep coming back to the fact that Porsche doesn't do one pedal driving and there must be something to the modes that they are forced to use in the EPA test that severely restricts their regen.


----------



## bwilson4web (Mar 4, 2019)

The EPA Test Car Database shows Porsche submitted the data used for mileage:


*Model Year*
Vehicle Manufacturer Name
Veh Mfr Code
Represented Test Veh Make
Represented Test Veh Model
Test Vehicle ID
Test Veh Configuration #
Test Veh Displacement (L)
Actual Tested Testgroup
Vehicle Type
Rated Horsepower
# of Cylinders and Rotors
Engine Code
Tested Transmission Type Code
Tested Transmission Type
# of Gears
Transmission Lockup?
Drive System Code
Drive System Description
Transmission Overdrive Code
Transmission Overdrive Desc
Equivalent Test Weight (lbs.)
Axle Ratio
N/V Ratio
Shift Indicator Light Use Cd
Shift Indicator Light Use Desc
Test Number
Test Originator
Analytically Derived FE?
ADFE Test Number
ADFE Total Road Load HP
ADFE Equiv. Test Weight (lbs.)
ADFE N/V Ratio
Test Procedure Cd
Test Procedure Description
Test Fuel Type Cd
Test Fuel Type Description
Test Category
THC (g/mi)
CO (g/mi)
CO2 (g/mi)
NOx (g/mi)
PM (g/mi)
CH4 (g/mi)
N2O (g/mi)
RND_ADJ_FE
FE_UNIT
FE Bag 1
FE Bag 2
FE Bag 3
FE Bag 4
DT-Inertia Work Ratio Rating
DT-Absolute Speed Change Ratg
DT-Energy Economy Rating
Target Coef A (lbf)
Target Coef B (lbf/mph)
Target Coef C (lbf/mph**2)
Set Coef A (lbf)
Set Coef B (lbf/mph)
Set Coef C (lbf/mph**2)
Aftertreatment Device Cd
Aftertreatment Device Desc
Police - Emergency Vehicle?
Averaging Group ID
Averaging Weighting Factor
Averaging Method Cd
Averging Method Desc

*2020*
Porsche
PRX
Porsche
Taycan Turbo
FE-Y1AT-20
0
0.001
LPRXV00.0EVT
Car
616

EBE
A
Automatic
2
N
A
All Wheel Drive
1
No gear ratio < 1
5500
1
43.1
1
Not eqipped
LPRX10061850
MFR
No

81
Charge Depleting UDDS
62
Electricity
CD

96.9
MPG

49.908
0.43415
0.013683
49.908
0.43415
0.013683

N

N
No averaging

*2020*
Porsche
PRX
Porsche
Taycan Turbo
FE-Y1AT-20
0
0.001
LPRXV00.0EVT
Car
616

EBE
A
Automatic
2
N
A
All Wheel Drive
1
No gear ratio < 1
5500
1
43.1
1
Not eqipped
LPRX10061851
MFR
No

84
Charge Depleting Highway
62
Electricity
CD

101.5
MPG

49.908
0.43415
0.013683
49.908
0.43415
0.013683

N

N
No averaging


Second source with EV specific table: 2020 Datafile from https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/download.shtml.

Bob Wilson

ps. Sorry about the table as I'm still learning how it works.


----------



## VoltageDrop (Sep 16, 2018)

Now that the Porsche Taycan is out making its rounds in car reviews......I find one thing VERY interesting.......they are all acting like this is the first "quick" electric car that has ever been made and available to the public....... never mind the MODEL S-Ludicrous (and now Raven) which has been brutally accelerating as quick (if not quicker) than this for the past 2 -3 years already (if not more) all while being a "luxury sedan" and not a dedicated sports car (blasphemy!!!).........AND the Plaid is not even out yet and will be even crazier!!!....I wonder if they will be drooling and giggling like little school children when the Tesla Roadster 2 is out (which is the more logical competitor to the Taycan)........I feel that if Porsche would have handed them a turd on wheels they would have reacted the same because it was a Porsche..... and because for some sad reason people/media just seem to want Tesla to fail.....it seems like every new electric car coming out gets an automatic "Tesla killer this.....topple Tesla that" from the media.....(well not all the media...still some good/honest reviewers out there).....why can't they see Tesla for what it is and deserves (a leader and innovator in this segment) and give them the credit that they have earned


----------



## $ Trillion Musk (Nov 5, 2016)

VoltageDrop said:


> Now that the Porsche Taycan is out making its rounds in car reviews......I find one thing VERY interesting.......they are all acting like this is the first "quick" electric car that has ever been made and available to the public....... never mind the MODEL S-Ludicrous (and now Raven) which has been brutally accelerating as quick (if not quicker) than this for the past 2 -3 years already (if not more) all while being a "luxury sedan" and not a dedicated sports car (blasphemy!!!).........AND the Plaid is not even out yet and will be even crazier!!!....I wonder if they will be drooling and giggling like little school children when the Tesla Roadster 2 is out (which is the more logical competitor to the Taycan)........I feel that if Porsche would have handed them a turd on wheels they would have reacted the same because it was a Porsche..... and because for some sad reason people/media just seem to want Tesla to fail.....it seems like every new electric car coming out gets an automatic "Tesla killer this.....topple Tesla that" from the media.....(well not all the media...still some good/honest reviewers out there).....why can't they see Tesla for what it is and deserves (a leader and innovator in this segment) and give them the credit that they have earned


Acting as if Tesla doesn't even exist is like shooting yourself in the foot... you lose either way. Let the goons be goons.

By the time the Taycan is released to the public, the Roadster 2 and Plaid Model S will have specs that are so far ahead and have a much greater value proposition that only the most die hard Porsche fans would go for the Taycan.

As YouTuber Tailosive EV points out, for the price of one Taycan Turbo S you can buy a Performance Model 3, a Performance Model Y, and a triple motor Cybertruck, with some cash left over. The last 2 minutes of this video is such a hoot:


----------



## bwilson4web (Mar 4, 2019)

VoltageDrop said:


> it seems like every new electric car coming out gets an automatic "Tesla killer this.....topple Tesla that" from the media


I had to drop my subscription to a Youtube channel that I once supported with Patreon. So in sign-off, I shared:
​_I just binged (three videos) . . . Disappointing, they underlined a past comment to "not be a Tesla channel". Success, I had dropped Patreon . . . but now have to drop my 'subscription.'_​​_The technical interest in short range and small EVs does not match USA driving requirements. We have two: 2014 BMW i3-REx, and 2019 Std. Rng. Plus Tesla. Both have gone on 600-700 mi trips without a problem. Wednesday I drove 120 miles each way in our BMW i3-REx to pickup Tesla parts that I will install on Saturday . . . I can still turn a wrench._​​_I wish you good luck but we are going down separate paths._​
Tesla does not pay for traditional auto advertising but in Youtube, it is the viewers who pay with their time, subscriptions, and even Patreon. If opportunities to cover other EVs depends on Tesla omission, well they risk losing subscribers who want information, not self censorship.

I do want to call out what I consider to be a fair Youtube channel: "The Fast Lane Car." With rare exception, they buy the cars they test and run them hard. Even press cars get a through exercise like this one with notorious Anton Wahlman:





Great acting at 14:58, 15:42, and 16:04
Bob Wilson


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## Mesprit87 (Oct 29, 2017)

For those interested, a link to PCA tech tactics showing a stripped down Taycan:
https://www.pca.org/news/2019-12-24...h-and-inside-porsche-taycan-tech-tactics-west


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## GDN (Oct 30, 2017)

They exist in Atlanta. I've got a friend that works for Porsche and there are several in the garage.


----------



## GDN (Oct 30, 2017)

Porsche is throwing some dough for the Taycan. Super Bowl kind of dough. Nice to see them not afraid to spend that kind of money. Exposure is good.


----------



## littlD (Apr 17, 2016)

And a good ad that highlighted the fun of EVs.

Now... about that E-Tron ad... So forgettable (let it go?)


----------



## shareef777 (Mar 10, 2019)

littlD said:


> And a good ad that highlighted the fun of EVs.
> 
> Now... about that E-Tron ad... So forgettable (let it go?)


Yeah, that ad had me scratching my head. I'd bet most of the viewers that saw the ad were thinking "let go of what"!? I get they're referring to ICE, but I don't think a majority of the country realizes that the world is transitioning to purely electric. I bet most people think it'll just be ICE/hybrid/BEV forever.


----------



## bwilson4web (Mar 4, 2019)

The Hummer one was pretty lame too.

Bob Wilson


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## VoltageDrop (Sep 16, 2018)

......and while Porsche, GM and AUDI paid $$$$$ millions for the advertising time.......TESLA got it for free....LMAO (not that it needs it).....but they had some time where they were talking about what both teams had in common was that they loved their TESLAs.....


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## Needsdecaf (Dec 27, 2018)

It would appear, through multiple anecdotal evidence as well as the independent Test Porsche paid for, that the Taycan is good for significantly better range than it's EPA rating. I trust Dan Edmunds to do a proper test, honestly.

https://www.autoblog.com/2020/02/03/2020-porsche-taycan-turbos-range-test/


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## bwilson4web (Mar 4, 2019)

Needsdecaf said:


> It would appear, through multiple anecdotal evidence as well as the independent Test Porsche paid for, that the Taycan is good for significantly better range than it's EPA rating. I trust Dan Edmunds to do a proper test, honestly.
> 
> https://www.autoblog.com/2020/02/03/2020-porsche-taycan-turbos-range-test/


I still can't afford one and they are too small.

Bob Wilson


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## MelindaV (Apr 2, 2016)

bwilson4web said:


> and they are too small


the Taycan is 10" longer and 5" wider than the Model 3

195x78x54 vs 185x73x56 for the 3


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## Mr. Spacely (Feb 28, 2019)

MelindaV said:


> the Taycan is 10" longer and 5" wider than the Model 3
> 
> 195x78x54 vs 185x73x56 for the 3


But it is only 54" high vs. 57" for Model 3. It lacks headroom and feels very tight inside...


----------



## MelindaV (Apr 2, 2016)

Mr. Spacely said:


> But it is only 54" high vs. 57" for Model 3. It lacks headroom and feels very tight inside...


all the reviews Ive seen mention the headroom (and overall interior) are all quite spacious. (including one note of a 6'7" wearing a racing helmet).


----------



## Needsdecaf (Dec 27, 2018)

Mr. Spacely said:


> But it is only 54" high vs. 57" for Model 3. It lacks headroom and feels very tight inside...


Front headroom is good. Rear not so much.



MelindaV said:


> all the reviews Ive seen mention the headroom (and overall interior) are all quite spacious. (including one note of a 6'7" wearing a racing helmet).


I am 6'2" and don't fit in a lot of cars since I have more height in my torso (32" inseam). Just comparing the Taycan to the Model 3 on space, here is my observation:

Front headroom: Model 3 - tons. Taycan - more than enough.
Front legroom, hip room: Model 3 - widen open. Taycan - more like a traditional sedan. A bit narrower in the shoulders and hips. Higher dash. 
Rear legroom: Model 3: Decent. Helped by completely flat floor. Taycan: very tight. Thicker seats and "foot garages" really make for cramped feet
Rear headroom: Model 3: Generous. Taycan: Adequate
Trunk space: Model 3: Good. Taycan: Tight.

The front ****pit of the Taycan feels closer to my 911 than it does to my Model 3. You sit lower, the doors and dash are higher. Everything is more intimate.



MelindaV said:


> the Taycan is 10" longer and 5" wider than the Model 3
> 
> 195x78x54 vs 185x73x56 for the 3


The width is also worth noting as it is deceiving. A fellow Porsche / Model 3 owner friend of mine went for a drive in the Taycan. He is not quite as big as I am, but he is not small. His first comment was "boy, it's tight, where did all the width go"? I experienced the same sensation. The car has a lot of tumblehome in the side profile, the better to make those sexy hips. Unfortunately, that cuts into the passenger cabin notably.

He's got a Taycan on order, lucky duck.


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## Dr. J (Sep 1, 2017)

Head to head against the Model S: https://www.caranddriver.com/review...an-turbo-s-vs-2020-tesla-model-s-performance/

Has the mystery been solved of why the Taycan scored so poorly on the EPA test, but performs nearly as well as the Model S in the real world? My theory is that the poor regenerative braking hurts--a lot--on the EPA test, but at a steady 70 MPH the Taycan shines.


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## bwilson4web (Mar 4, 2019)

Here you go:



Dr. J said:


> Head to head against the Model S: https://www.caranddriver.com/review...an-turbo-s-vs-2020-tesla-model-s-performance/
> 
> Has the mystery been solved of why the Taycan scored so poorly on the EPA test, but performs nearly as well as the Model S in the real world? My theory is that the poor regenerative braking hurts--a lot--on the EPA test, but at a steady 70 MPH the Taycan shines.











Perhaps but I don't have a test Taycan to run the benchmarks. Here are the "drag HP" curves for the two vehicles based on their EPA roll-down coefficients.

Bob Wilson


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## garsh (Apr 4, 2016)

Strangely, the Taycan launched better on a regular road than on an un-prepped drag racing track.


----------



## bwilson4web (Mar 4, 2019)

I prefer to playback in YouTube: "SPACE" toggles run; "." forwards one frame; "," backup one frame, and; playback speed can be slowed to 25%. At these times:

7:32, the tires show segmented, rubber, slip marks.
8:27, use the cabin dashcam in front of the rear view mirror to show the body tilt during acceleration.
8:58, the rear, side view shows the pulsing of the wheel.
9:19, the "draggy" detailed record but vibrating mount.
9:50, nice cabin view, watch the power cable displace when acceleration starts. 
10:14, good view of the tire patch 'pulsing'.
10:23, rear side view showing tire patch pulsing.
11:15, nice cabin view again the power cable displacement lets you know what is going on.
Bob Wilson


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## bwilson4web (Mar 4, 2019)

Here is DragTimes comparing the Taycan Turbo S and regular Taycan Turbo:





No, I'm not tempted but it sounds like the Taycan specifications came from the Model S specs.

Bob Wilson


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## garsh (Apr 4, 2016)

The March/April 2020 issue of Road and Track has an article on the Porsche Taycan Turbo S called "Short Circuit" (Jason Cammisa). It surprisingly takes _several_ jabs at Porsche. Hell, this article makes me wonder if Oliver Blume had pissed in Jason's Wheaties.

I can't find the article online, so here are a few choice quotes.

Porsche nailed its targets for its first pure EV. Problem is, it picked the wrong ones.
The only hitch lies in the fact that neither the materials nor the design reflect the car's $200,000 price.
But the Taycan's inclusion of a two-speed, single-clutch, decoupling automatic rear transmission eliminates one of an electric car's chief advantages: always being in the right gear.
The fact that Porsche installed this transmission in the name of efficiency and then managed to produce the least-efficient mass-production EV on the market proves Germans do have a sense of humor.
Sometimes, the transmission will slam back into first and rocket the car forward. Other times not. No other production EV has a multi-speed transmission, which means none of those cars suffer from such inconsistent response.
Stuttgart recently issued a press release announcing that the Taycan's performance varied by just 0.8 seconds during 26 consecutive runs from a standstill to 124 mph. Only a German firm could engineer an EV for such an absurd fringe case, then ignore the massive inconsistency in response and acceleration encountered in the real world.
Unlike Teslas and every other EV in production, the Taycan does not offer a high-regen mode. This means there is no one-pedal driving for the street. Porsche says this choice was made partially because coasting is more efficient than regenerating and redeploying power - ironic, again, given the Taycan's abysmal efficiency...
In other words, Porsche wants the Taycan to behave consistently, unlike other EVs. Yet one more fantastic laugh, as that two-speed gearbox removes consistent acceleration response in real life.
Porsche likely wanted the Taycan to be able to keep up with Tesla's Model S Performance at low speed (it doesn't)...
Tesla wins this round.


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## Needsdecaf (Dec 27, 2018)

Jason is, IMO, an excellent car reviewer. He's also pretty crusty for a young guy. And, for someone that loves traditional ICE cars, he's also on his second E-Golf. So, IMO, well versed to review the car. 

I agree with many of his points having driven the Taycan and being very familiar with the Porsche product. 

Still, my overall assessment is that the Taycan is very imperfect, but it's a good ground in which to prove that EV's can be EXCITING and also be a PORSCHE. The importance of this buy-in cannot be overstated given that the next Macan (their best seller) is almost certainly going to be an EV. And also their most affordable sports car, the 718, also will likely be all EV. Or at least have an EV only variant. 

Viewed from that perspective, I think the Taycan is hitting it's targets. But that makes for an odd vehicle in real life.


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## littlD (Apr 17, 2016)

Had the opportunity today to test drive the Taycan 4S.

While I'll share more first impressions on the podcast, a number of things stand out:

1. I experienced Autopilot withdrawal! Was literally shaking after driving it (and not in a good way)
2. It's a DRIVERS car, designed for those who enjoy driving
3. No one pedal driving with a funny combo of hold mode sometimes and creep mode other times and very weak regen until you press the brake.
4. Busy interior, not the simplicity of a Tesla
5. Great seats, more bolstering on the side, although I still like Tesla seats too
6. Less interior space, especially in the rear.
7. Harder to see out of, especially the rear window (a little worse than Model Y)
8. Great grunt between 60-80 MPH, very nice
9. After turning off the fake engine sound, it was a pretty whiny drive train
10. Same interior noise level as the Model Y (68db)

All that said, Porsche's first EV entry should be applauded! It's a Porsche first, an EV second, designed for drivers who like to do every part of driving themselves. I'm not that guy!


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## Needsdecaf (Dec 27, 2018)

littlD said:


> 1. I experienced Autopilot withdrawal! Was literally shaking after driving it (and not in a good way)


LOL, what?


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## garsh (Apr 4, 2016)

__
http://instagr.am/p/CHlusgsFrZ4/


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## littlD (Apr 17, 2016)

Well, some of us had no trouble fitting in the driver's seat


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## JMON (Aug 21, 2016)

garsh said:


> __
> http://instagr.am/p/CHlusgsFrZ4/


 Rock on !


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## Klaus-rf (Mar 6, 2019)

littlD said:


> Well, some of us had no trouble fitting in the driver's seat


 I'm guessing he's not gonna fit into the Lotus either.


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## Needsdecaf (Dec 27, 2018)

I posted regarding the Taycan 12v issue in the Mustang Mach E thread. Was going to post some links for anyone interested and then realized I'm totally spamming that thread.

If you are interested in reading (a lot) about the Taycan 12v thread, here are a few links:

The first person to have the issue:

https://www.taycanforum.com/forum/threads/don-breaks-his-taycan-the-saga-of-the-12v-battery.1274/
How to recover car without service (describes the problem well):

https://www.taycanforum.com/forum/t...it-dies-because-of-the-12-volt-problem….2529/
Excellent thread by an owner used to IT troubleshooting:

https://www.taycanforum.com/forum/threads/car-died-over-night….2525/


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## littlD (Apr 17, 2016)

12V batteries are the kryptonite of any EV


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## Needsdecaf (Dec 27, 2018)

littlD said:


> 12V batteries are the kryptonite of any EV


Yeah, but at least Tesla lets you get a few years down the road before experiencing the issues!


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