# 2021 M3P Troubling Data



## clerkp

I'm sure you all think I'm here to stir the pot but this is incredibly troubling. My M3P is only a month old. Here is a Reddit thread on the topic - appears to be tied to the new batteries.


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https://www.reddit.com/r/TeslaModel3/comments/ljqg4m


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## JasonF

Bjorn also noted that the issue can be solved with software by having the car stop scavenging heat from the battery while the heatpump is running, after the battery drops to a certain temperature.


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## clerkp

JasonF said:


> Bjorn also noted that the issue can be solved with software by having the car stop scavenging heat from the battery while the heatpump is running, after the battery drops to a certain temperature.


Yes but he speculated it may be hardware based as well. Hopefully there's a fix as many people are paying 10 grand extra for the performance model.


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## clerkp

Not only does the 2021 perform worse than the LR look at those massive WHP differences between the 2019 M3P and the 2021 M3P after 70 SOC. That is unacceptable and definitely not the car I believed I was purchasing. Incredibly disappointing.


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## iChris93

clerkp said:


> Yes but he speculated it may be hardware based as well. Hopefully there's a fix as many people are paying 10 grand extra for the performance model.


I think JWardell explains how the first Model 3s improved and I think it's likely Tesla is still tuning in these heat pumps.


JWardell said:


> The first winter 2018-2019 with the Model 3 was a rough one: Tesla was far from dialing many of the fine tuning and magic involved with using the motors to heat the battery and much more cautious in doing so. Many of us went months with zero regen, and watched batteries get _colder_ as we drove. It was a year or more of small almost unnoticeable continuous improvements in software of each and every component in the car before they drove as well as they do today. I couldn't understand for a while why the cars would not regen to stop and cut out at 5mph. And then, eventually, Tesla figured it all out, and the car I bought years ago drive so much better, performs better, and most importantly handles extreme temperatures much better, simply by continuously improving the software.
> 
> Tesla does what other companies do not...they see the future potential of the hardware, and sell it to you well before they have it all figured out in software. Great for the few of us that love beta testing and experiencing tech at the bleeding edge! But certainly frustrating for many others.
> 
> Heat pumps were intentionally avoided because they traditionally don't work at low temperatures. Tesla managed some fairly impressive hardware innovations to make that possible. But this is the first winter Tesla has had heat pumps in real customers' hands across the planet. It's just like that first winter without a battery heater. Tesla will make small improvements over time, and in another year or two, the heat pumps will work much better than they do now.


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## garsh

I'm confused by this statement:


> Tesla was putting in panasonic cells (E3D - type 2170l) into all 2021 performance cars


I thought that all 2170 cells are made in Nevada by Panasonic. Is that not the case?


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## clerkp

garsh said:


> I'm confused by this statement:
> 
> I thought that all 2170 cells are made in Nevada by Panasonic. Is that not the case?


I think the 2021 M3P is getting the Panasonic batteries while the current 2021 LR is still getting the LG batteries. Definitely not my area of expertise but from reading over on Tesla Motors Club it seems it's a combination of less cobalt in the Panasonic batteries and Tesla lowering the voltage output to protect range. In any event the differences in performance between the 2019 and 2021 are significant. Hopefully this is a result of the very low outside temps and not something that will happen in normal temperatures.


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## Long Ranger

garsh said:


> I'm confused by this statement:
> 
> I thought that all 2170 cells are made in Nevada by Panasonic. Is that not the case?


For US cars, yes, I believe all 2170 cells have always been Panasonic and made at GF1 in Nevada. However, the 2021 M3P uses a new Panasonic cell (2170L, low cobalt) that's at the center of this controversy. This new battery actually has a higher capacity than the older Panasonic which is still used in the 2021 Model 3 LR (80.8 kWh vs. 78.6 kWh per EPA data).

I believe there are actually three batteries here. Two Panasonics and the LG one. Cars in Europe can have either LG or Panasonic, but I don't think LG appears in the US.


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## clerkp

For anyone thinking this issue is limited to a cold weather problem, someone over on TMC did the test with battery temps at 30 Celsius and had the same results. This is eventually going to affect all models as the M3P is the first to universally get the low cobalt battery pack.

https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/thr...ge-data-battery-discussion-etc.214484/page-41


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## Long Ranger

clerkp said:


> For anyone thinking this issue is limited to a cold weather problem, someone over on TMC did the test with battery temps at 30 Celsius and had the same results. This is eventually going to affect all models as the M3P is the first to universally get the low cobalt battery pack.


I've been following that thread over there. It's far from conclusive yet how much this applies to a warm battery pack. It may only come into play at low temp and low SOC. It could even be an EU vs. US difference. For example, here are some other results from that thread which show a sub 4 second 0-60 time at 23% SOC.
https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/thr...ry-discussion-etc.214484/page-39#post-5331937


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## clerkp

Long Ranger said:


> I've been following that thread over there. It's far from conclusive yet how much this applies to a warm battery pack. It may only come into play at low temp and low SOC. It could even be an EU vs. US difference. For example, here are some other results from that thread which show a sub 4 second 0-60 time at 23% SOC.
> https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/thr...ry-discussion-etc.214484/page-39#post-5331937


Agree there is a lot that remains unknown but it does appear that there is something going on with the new batteries and Tesla keeping the battery cooler at lower SOC. I've read all those threads and I vacillate between not a big deal and it's a meaningful drop off. I already own my car so I don't have a choice in the matter. Based on what I have read, I doubt this is something Tesla will remedy as it appears to be a deliberate trade off between range and performance. I would feel better about it if we had some evidence at more reasonable temps like 20 to 40f.


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## M3OC Rules

clerkp said:


> I would feel better about it if we had some evidence at more reasonable temps like 20 to 40f.


It looks like its 20-40 deg F in Pittsburgh... Science is calling.


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## clerkp

M3OC Rules said:


> It looks like its 20-40 deg F in Pittsburgh... Science is calling.


True. Maybe Garsh can let me know the best place to do some runs around town? What do all these people use to get the statistics? I'm willing to take one for the team.


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## garsh

clerkp said:


> True. Maybe Garsh can let me know the best place to do some runs around town? What do all these people use to get the statistics? I'm willing to take one for the team.


Sorry, I'm not up-to-speed on what kind of testing is required here. What kind of testing are you looking to do?

For statistics, I'd guess that most people install TeslaFi, but I haven't actually tried to confirm that.


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## clerkp

garsh said:


> Sorry, I'm not up-to-speed on what kind of testing is required here. What kind of testing are you looking to do?
> 
> For statistics, I'd guess that most people install TeslaFi, but I haven't actually tried to confirm that.


I think it was largely in jest but trying to figure out how people get all these real time statistics on battery temp, power, 0 to 60 etc. guessing they are using something that goes into the obd. As far as testing, I would get ver far doing 0 to 60 runs in my township.


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## Long Ranger

clerkp said:


> I think it was largely in jest but trying to figure out how people get all these real time statistics on battery temp, power, 0 to 60 etc. guessing they are using something that goes into the obd. As far as testing, I would get ver far doing 0 to 60 runs in my township.


Most of the data you're seeing is from people using the Scan My Tesla app (you'll see references to SMT). It gets this data from the CAN bus in the car. You need the right OBD cable for your car, an OBD to Bluetooth device like OBDLink, and the app. 
https://teslaownersonline.com/threads/diagnostic-port-and-data-access.7502/
Another alternative is the CANserver from @JWardell which uses WiFi instead of Bluetooth, among other differences such as supporting cool little displays you can put in your car. I don't think SMT is compatible with that yet, but there's an app called teslax and ongoing development. 
https://teslaownersonline.com/threads/canserver-development.16373/


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## JasonF

I don't know what makes people tend to jump straight into "No, it can't be software, this is a hardware problem that can't be fixed", only to have the problem fixed with software a few months later. It's happened a few times with Tesla, and it happens every year with Apple (except for their laptop keyboard, that really _was_ a hardware problem).

I watched Bjorn Nyland's video about this issue, and as the video progresses, you can actually watch the 2021 model's battery temperature falling substantially with each hard acceleration until it's almost colder than the ambient temperature. Meanwhile, the 2019 model's battery temperature increased with each run.

I can kind of see what the problem is. When it's very cold outside in a 2019 Model 3, the passenger cabin can be heated independently of the battery and motor temperature. In the current 2021 heat pump version, if you're heating the passenger cabin, you're sucking heat from the liquid coolant, which is taking heat from the battery and motor, because they're in the circuit with the heat pump. You can't really control where the heat for the passenger cabin comes from, it will take heat from anything the refrigerant touches. And you can't stop circulating the coolant either, because then the motors or battery might rapidly overheat on hard acceleration runs.

The hardware way to fix this would be to have the coolant bypass the heat pump connected block so it distributes the heat evenly from battery to motors, but that's an expensive fix, and...wouldn't actually work that well. If the battery or motors heat up unusually fast, this would reconnect, and the problems would start all over again.

So I still believe it's going to be software, and it's going to be an old-school trick that dates back to the first air conditioned ICE vehicles: When it's cold out, and you're pushing the motors and battery, simply have the compressor shut off briefly on hard acceleration to let the motors and battery keep at optimum temperature. The price would be that the passenger cabin would start to cool down rapidly, but someone driving at a race track or getting performance data isn't going to care.


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## clerkp

JasonF said:


> I don't know what makes people tend to jump straight into "No, it can't be software, this is a hardware problem that can't be fixed", only to have the problem fixed with software a few months later. It's happened a few times with Tesla, and it happens every year with Apple (except for their laptop keyboard, that really _was_ a hardware problem).
> 
> I watched Bjorn Nyland's video about this issue, and as the video progresses, you can actually watch the 2021 model's battery temperature falling substantially with each hard acceleration until it's almost colder than the ambient temperature. Meanwhile, the 2019 model's battery temperature increased with each run.
> 
> I can kind of see what the problem is. When it's very cold outside in a 2019 Model 3, the passenger cabin can be heated independently of the battery and motor temperature. In the current 2021 heat pump version, if you're heating the passenger cabin, you're sucking heat from the liquid coolant, which is taking heat from the battery and motor, because they're in the circuit with the heat pump. You can't really control where the heat for the passenger cabin comes from, it will take heat from anything the refrigerant touches. And you can't stop circulating the coolant either, because then the motors or battery might rapidly overheat on hard acceleration runs.
> 
> The hardware way to fix this would be to have the coolant bypass the heat pump connected block so it distributes the heat evenly from battery to motors, but that's an expensive fix, and...wouldn't actually work that well. If the battery or motors heat up unusually fast, this would reconnect, and the problems would start all over again.
> 
> So I still believe it's going to be software, and it's going to be an old-school trick that dates back to the first air conditioned ICE vehicles: When it's cold out, and you're pushing the motors and battery, simply have the compressor shut off briefly on hard acceleration to let the motors and battery keep at optimum temperature. The price would be that the passenger cabin would start to cool down rapidly, but someone driving at a race track or getting performance data isn't going to care.


No jumping to conclusions here. I just know it's an issue. As far as a fix, that first requires Tesla to admit there is a problem to fix. Plenty of speculation on if or when Tesla will do that. Someone mentioned an option to disable the heat pump under track mode as a possible solution. It's not entire clear to me that this isn't an intentional decision by Tesla to preserve range over performance under the circumstances of lower SOC and low temps. What bothers me most is how poorly the 2021 performed against the 2019 starting as high as 70 SOC. I am not too worried about sub 20 SOC because that would be a rarity for me but sub 70 SOC happens every day when you charge to 85. The power differences are substantial.


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## JasonF

clerkp said:


> It's not entire clear to me that this isn't an intentional decision by Tesla to preserve range over performance under the circumstances of lower SOC and low temps.


I would have to say most likely Tesla didn't even test for it. The Model Y debut was basically the "test" for the heat pump, and after a few months passed and there were no complaints reported about it, they thought they were in the clear to introduce it to the Model 3. Considering how rare it is for someone to take a Model 3 to the track when it's well below freezing out with less than 20% battery is a _really_ small edge case. I guess the other thing they didn't anticipate was the Model Y buyers being more tame drivers who don't do stuff like that.


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## clerkp

JasonF said:


> Considering how rare it is for someone to take a Model 3 to the track when it's well below freezing out with less than 20% battery is a _really_ small edge case.


This description of the scope of the problem is too narrow. Look at Bjorns test results between the 2019 M3P and 2021. Power is way down starting at 70 SOC. It's not just a 20 percent SOC thing. It's really troubling to me how much less power tthe 2021 is putting out versus the 2019.


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## M3OC Rules

clerkp said:


> I think it was largely in jest but trying to figure out how people get all these real time statistics on battery temp, power, 0 to 60 etc. guessing they are using something that goes into the obd. As far as testing, I would get ver far doing 0 to 60 runs in my township.


You can use a smartphone app. They aren't as accurate (I think the GPS samples at a max of 1Hz on phones vs 10Hz in those hardware solutions.) but I would guess accurate enough for you to get a feel for how bad it is. Has anyone tried those apps?


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## clerkp

M3OC Rules said:


> You can use a smartphone app. They aren't as accurate (I think the GPS samples at a max of 1Hz on phones vs 10Hz in those hardware solutions.) but I would guess accurate enough for you to get a feel for how bad it is. Has anyone tried those apps?


I haven't. I've only owned the car during relatively cold weather. I can say the car has a noticeable decrease in power below 65 SOC. What I can't say is how much different it is from a 2019 under the same circumstances. It appears that the 2021 is running a target engine temp of 12C where the 2019 is running much warmer. The difference in engine temps appears to be the reason for the decreased power. The heat pump has something to do with it as well. While a lot of people are focusing on the LR versus the 2021 M3P (or is it P3D?) the far more interesting comparison is the 2021 v 2019 M3P because the differences are evident starting at 70 SOC.


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## JWardell

"The data" shows you real temperatures of every part of the system, as well as target temperatures, and power limits...these questions are all easily answered with a bit of logging.


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