# Car now stopping at red lights on AP!



## Mr. Spacely (Feb 28, 2019)

On the Tesla.com Model 3 Forum someone just posted a video of their car stopping by itself on AP! Watch as it approaches a red light, displays a small traffic light on the monitor (where the speed limit sign usually is), and then stops on its own! This is groundbreaking and shows that Tesla is not very far away from yet another advancement.

https://forums.tesla.com/forum/forums/ap-stopping-red-light

Here's the actual youtube video:


----------



## DocScott (Mar 6, 2019)

In the video, it appears AP is still engaged after the stop! I wish the video had kept going--when the light turned green did the car start moving again on its own?


----------



## Mr. Spacely (Feb 28, 2019)

Someone asked him that and the response was that he had to tap the accelerator go-fast pedal and then AP resumed...


----------



## Frully (Aug 30, 2018)

I've had my car detect one traffic light...it was on an exit ramp from NoA where the car exited and the ramp turned into an underpass traffic light. The car came to a complete stop at the stop line...despite that not technically being part of autopilot months ago.

Edit: watched the video and yup, appears they are on NoA also. Only difference for me is it doesn't show the traffic light detection in Canada yet.


----------



## Mr. Spacely (Feb 28, 2019)

I've had my dash show a big red steering wheel and beep at me when going through an intersection on AP before, but nothing like this.


----------



## iChris93 (Feb 3, 2017)

Frully said:


> I've had my car detect one traffic light...it was on an exit ramp from NoA where the car exited and the ramp turned into an underpass traffic light. The car came to a complete stop at the stop line...despite that not technically being part of autopilot months ago.
> 
> Edit: watched the video and yup, appears they are on NoA also. Only difference for me is it doesn't show the traffic light detection in Canada yet.


I think this may be GPS based.


----------



## MelindaV (Apr 2, 2016)

Mr. Spacely said:


> On the Tesla.com Model 3 Forum someone just posted a video of their car stopping by itself on AP! Watch as it approaches a red light, displays a small traffic light on the monitor (where the speed limit sign usually is), and then stops on its own! This is groundbreaking and shows that Tesla is not very far away from yet another advancement.
> 
> https://forums.tesla.com/forum/forums/ap-stopping-red-light
> 
> Here's the actual youtube video:


is is similar to what I posted in the 24.4 thread (on TACC only).


----------



## fazluke (Apr 19, 2017)

I had a similar situation few nights ago. On a surface steet and with AP engaged, I was approaching a red light. I got that screen with flashing red streaing wheel amd loud warnign nise so I panicked and stepped on the brake. Now knowing that it can stop on its own, I'll give it enough time to respond and hopefully stop.


----------



## SoFlaModel3 (Apr 15, 2017)

Frully said:


> I've had my car detect one traffic light...it was on an exit ramp from NoA where the car exited and the ramp turned into an underpass traffic light. The car came to a complete stop at the stop line...despite that not technically being part of autopilot months ago.
> 
> Edit: watched the video and yup, appears they are on NoA also. Only difference for me is it doesn't show the traffic light detection in Canada yet.


They have NoA enabled, but the road they are on does not support NoA. You can tell because the lane lines are blue on either side instead of one centered blue line.


----------



## JustTheTip (Jun 7, 2018)

Stop using AP on surface streets, people. 

And how do we know they didn’t hit the brake pedal?


----------



## MelindaV (Apr 2, 2016)

JustTheTip said:


> Stop using AP on surface streets, people.


 agree


JustTheTip said:


> And how do we know they didn't hit the brake pedal?


AP was still shown as engaged (blue circle around the speed, autosteer shown in blue)


----------



## DocScott (Mar 6, 2019)

JustTheTip said:


> Stop using AP on surface streets, people.


It would have been super-easy for Tesla to have prevented use on surface streets, as some other car manufacturers do for their L2 systems, if they had chosen to do so.

The version of the owner's manual I've got downloaded on my laptop (which means it's a bit old and may have been updated since) says:

"Traffic-Aware Cruise Control is primarily intended for driving on dry, straight roads, such as highways and freeways. It should not be used on city streets."

Also:

"Warning: Do not use Traffic-Aware Cruise Control on city streets or roads where traffic conditions are constantly changing."

That's intriguingly different from what it says for Autosteer:

"Warning: Autosteer is intended for use only on highways and limited-access roads with a fully attentive driver. Do nor use Autosteer on city streets, constructions zones, or in areas where bicycles and pedestrians may be present."

So even in terms of the official wording of the owner's manual, TACC is more or less endorsed for some _surface_ streets (dry, straight roads), just not _city_ streets. Autosteer is worded differently, including an explicit warning against using it when bicycles and pedestrians might be around, which means pretty much any surface street.

Dry, straight roads that are not "city streets" nevertheless often have stoplights. Stopping at a red light on its own would potentially be a feature of TACC, not Autosteer. So I think the situations described in this thread are within the normal expected use cases for the car, and are not "off-label" (except for the fact that the whole system is still designated as BETA).


----------



## MelindaV (Apr 2, 2016)

DocScott said:


> The version of the owner's manual I've got downloaded on my laptop (which means it's a bit old and may have been updated since) says:


we keep a link to the on-line (downloadable) current version of the owners manual in the pinned thread at the top of the Maintenance section
Owners Manual thread (release: May 2019)


----------



## Dogwhistle (Jul 2, 2017)

JustTheTip said:


> Stop using AP on surface streets, people.


That's not realistic. If Tesla didn't want us to use it in off-highway situations, they could easily disable it from even being available in those cases. Yet they don't, in fact they keep adding features that can ONLY be used on city streets, such as the new Stop Light Warning! That ONLY pops up if AP is engaged on city streets. And Elon loves to retweet people's positive experience using AP that are clearly not on highways, so he doesn't care either. A couple of lines buried in the owner's manual isn't going to prevent people from using a feature that is readily presented, and promoted, to them.


----------



## JustTheTip (Jun 7, 2018)

While you think it’s unrealistic, others with more common sense know it’s unsafe. And no doubt, Tesla’s defense against any AP related accidents is “improper usage” on surface streets.


----------



## DocScott (Mar 6, 2019)

JustTheTip said:


> While you think it's unrealistic, others with more common sense know it's unsafe. And no doubt, Tesla's defense against any AP related accidents is "improper usage" on surface streets.


I may have been too wordy.

The manual says it's OK to use TACC on surface streets! The idea that it doesn't is a myth.

According to the manual, it's not OK on _city_ streets, but the manual clearly distinguishes between the two.


----------



## Dogwhistle (Jul 2, 2017)

JustTheTip said:


> While you think it's unrealistic, others with more common sense know it's unsafe. And no doubt, Tesla's defense against any AP related accidents is "improper usage" on surface streets.


There have been dozens of AP incidents on city streets that have been reported in the media, I can't recall one where Tesla used that as their defense. It has always been "driver must remain attentive and in control at all times". Lawyers will also have fun pointing out Elon's big demonstration of AP to Gayle King on...city streets. Without hands on the wheel even! Point is, this is a feature that is, and will be, used in this environment unless Tesla outright stops it, and they seem to be well aware of that and trying to accommodate it. For instance, why add the ability to do automatic lane changes on city streets? That popped up a few months ago, why would the company add that if they didn't intend people to use it?

The lines in the manual were written by liability lawyers, not folks who are developing the car's functionality.


----------



## DocScott (Mar 6, 2019)

Dogwhistle said:


> Lawyers will also have fun pointing out Elon's big demonstration of AP to Gayle King on...city streets. .


Not city streets--suburban streets. There really is a difference!

(It is true that Musk did other things in that interview that the manual says not to do, like driving with his hands off the wheel.)


----------



## Frully (Aug 30, 2018)

SoFlaModel3 said:


> They have NoA enabled, but the road they are on does not support NoA. You can tell because the lane lines are blue on either side instead of one centered blue line.


Same with mine, midway on the ramp exiting it goes into 'noa ending in 25m' etc...then turns off. This video starts after it has turned off. I really want to recreate it now.


----------



## jdcollins5 (Oct 31, 2018)

I tried mine on a city street with 4 lanes and a median with stop lights. I was using EAP and following a car towards a stop light when the lead car changed lanes and I no longer had anyone between me and the light. I waited to see if it would recognize the stop light and slow down. Nothing happened and I had to hit the brakes.


----------



## SoFlaModel3 (Apr 15, 2017)

JustTheTip said:


> Stop using AP on surface streets, people.
> 
> And how do we know they didn't hit the brake pedal?





JustTheTip said:


> While you think it's unrealistic, others with more common sense know it's unsafe. And no doubt, Tesla's defense against any AP related accidents is "improper usage" on surface streets.


When I first got my Model 3 it did not support lane change on city streets and now it does, so clearly Tesla does intend for us to use it. That said, I agree it's really not the best on city streets and you have to pay even more attention to it.


----------



## Bokonon (Apr 13, 2017)

fazluke said:


> I had a similar situation few nights ago. On a surface steet and with AP engaged, I was approaching a red light. I got that screen with flashing red streaing wheel amd loud warnign nise so I panicked and stepped on the brake. Now knowing that it can stop on its own, I'll give it enough time to respond and hopefully stop.


Anytime you see that screen ("take over immediately") in any scenario, you should no longer assume that Autopilot will assist you in any way. That warning is basically the car saying, "I cannot handle this situation. You're in charge now." So I think you reacted just as you should have.


----------



## Mr. Spacely (Feb 28, 2019)

I'm a little disappointed. I assumed red light and stop sign recognition would be a part of V-10 software upgrade. Maybe not completely functional, but at least partial recognition and a symbol on the screen. Maybe in a few weeks on the next software release?


----------



## iChris93 (Feb 3, 2017)

Mr. Spacely said:


> I'm a little disappointed. I assumed red light and stop sign recognition would be a part of V-10 software upgrade. Maybe not completely functional, but at least partial recognition and a symbol on the screen. Maybe in a few weeks on the next software release?


Hopefully in a V10.1 release


----------



## SoFlaModel3 (Apr 15, 2017)

Mr. Spacely said:


> I'm a little disappointed. I assumed red light and stop sign recognition would be a part of V-10 software upgrade. Maybe not completely functional, but at least partial recognition and a symbol on the screen. Maybe in a few weeks on the next software release?


I think you'll see it along with or soon before Navigate on Autopilot for city roads.


----------



## iChris93 (Feb 3, 2017)

SoFlaModel3 said:


> I think you'll see it along with or soon before Navigate on Autopilot for city roads.


It may require HW3 then.


----------



## Mr. Spacely (Feb 28, 2019)

iChris93 said:


> It may require HW3 then.


OK. Then the car(s) with the functionality right now (see my original post) may or may not have hardware 3.0, but obviously not software V 10. Odd...


----------



## PaulBraren (Jun 25, 2019)

@TrevP, on the Oct 03 2019 episode:
*Tesla Owners Online Podcast*
*58 - V10 is The Bomb*​at this spot
https://overcast.fm/+NOGta21-o/1:23:50
mention is made of a Model 3 perhaps stopping at stop lights. This thread above is interesting, I'll just add one more data point to it.

Back on July 26, I recorded this clip, see the stop light approach at this spot





which was with software 2019.24.4. It may or may not be relevant that the light turned yellow just as I approached the stop line.

I was able to replicate this a week later at night with no other vehicles, but I had no camera rolling.

It's a little tricky, because I need to arrive at the bottom of this ramp with a yellow or red light, and no other cars around ahead of me in this same right-most lane. I should give this another try on V10 (2019.32.11.1 d39e85a) and see what happens, if there is interest.

All my Tesla related videos here.


----------



## JWardell (May 9, 2016)

Light detection has actually existed for most of the year, however Tesla has it disabled.
Here's what it is like if you toggle it on:





Note the car puts up a light icon and shows the status it is determining red/green.
I think it depends on maps noting a light at the location, though, so that means it is prone to error.

You've seen what a debacle releasing just a fun feature like smart summon has been. Imagine if Tesla released stop light detection that only worked 90% of the time? Massive red light running accidents.
It exists, but it will probably be a while before it is perfect and infallible. Only then will it be enabled for the general public.


----------

