# Autopilot



## Jaspal (Apr 12, 2016)

Hello Members,

Recently I got interested in the process of how tesla makes its cars and even went to the extent of watching a documentary on YouTube about the creation of the Model S. What I didn't find was the process of installing the hardware and software simulation of the AutoPilot feature (probably because it was not available at the time).
So my questions are..
- How does tesla install this feature?
- Is there a video that explains it?
- Does tesla test out autopilot or not?
- Do they actually drive every car on the road just to see if it actually works?
- Or is it just predetermined that the technology works?

Thanks,
Jaspal Singh


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## TrevP (Oct 20, 2015)

Hey Jas,

Tesla installs the software at the factory and tests each car on their track outside the factory. Once the car is sent to the service center for delivery it goes through a final inspection and software update.

If you're referring to the software update nature of Autopilot in the sense that you didn't buy it when you bought the car is can be activated by Tesla remotely as they can connect to the cars over the air. All the cars are connected to Tesla HQ through a VPN connection. They can also activate it at a service centre. My understanding is that if you decide one day that you want Autopilot you can simply call Tesla, pay them and they can activate it right there and then, no need to visit a service centre. Same thing applies to unlocking a battery too.

Tesla does Autopilot development in-house and tests on the roads, at Alameda naval base and with a select group of beta testers (including ELon himself). Once the features are deemed safe enough they then do a limited rollout to more people then more widespread roll outs to the rest of the world, pending regulations of course.


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## chopr147 (May 23, 2016)

I have seen the "How it's made Tesla Model S" and it is very interesting. But, they do not show how the battery is made. I have a good understanding how with help from TrevP but it would be nice to see a video of it.


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## Jaspal (Apr 12, 2016)

chopr147 said:


> I have seen the "How it's made Tesla Model S" and it is very interesting. But, they do not show how the battery is made. I have a good understanding how with help from TrevP but it would be nice to see a video of it.


Its classified, they said that in the documentary. The orientation of the cells is Tesla's "Formula."


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## TrevP (Oct 20, 2015)

chopr147 said:


> I have seen the "How it's made Tesla Model S" and it is very interesting. But, they do not show how the battery is made. I have a good understanding how with help from TrevP but it would be nice to see a video of it.


I'll try and find a clip that I've seen but it's really short. It's of a Tesla robot doing a pick and place of the cells into modules. Doesn't show much so nothing really lost. There's lots of pictures of the battery disassembled on the internet you can find with a simple Google image search.


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## james connolly (Apr 11, 2016)

Folks,

I have a question for you on the Tesla radar. (which is part of the Autopilot system).

1. Is the Tesla radar a simple radar ? By that I mean does it just send out a pulse and then wait for a reflection to return. Then from the delay figure out how far away the object is. It does not know where the object is (left, right, up, down) just the distance and maybe the size of the object from the reflection strength.

2. Or does the Tesla radar have some spatial resolution. i.e does it have any information on the location of an object ?
One type of radar that can do this is a "Phased array radar" and some work has been done on this for automotive applications. (see link below).

http://www.automotive-eetimes.com/n...tial-phased-array-radar-automotive-deployment

Any idea where Tesla is with regard to it's current radar tech or where it's going ?

Thanks
James


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## garsh (Apr 4, 2016)

Given Elon's recent tweets concerning the radar, it sounds like it has a good bit of directional capabilities.

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/753785936257835008


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## MelindaV (Apr 2, 2016)

Also Tesla uses both radar for distance and sonar for within 16ft on all sides of the car. My understanding is the radar does place what it sees, but the sonar may not. (plus the optical camera adding to the radar's information)
Radar (RAdio Detection And Range) detects hard objects locations, their direction of travel and relative speed beyond the distance of the headlights and can 'see' thru visual obstacles like rain, fog, snow or other soft objects (IE person/animal).
Sonar (SOund Navigation And Range) detects everything within 16' of the car, including a small child, dog, beachball or dump truck.


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## james connolly (Apr 11, 2016)

I'm not so sure the Tesla radar has much resolution. If it did surely it would have been able to detect a large
truck pulling out in front of a model S. It may be tuned to look at the ground in front of the car, to tune out overhead signs etc. Hence the gap under the truck looked like a clear road ahead. I think a phased array radar would have performed better in this case. 

Regards
James


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## TrevP (Oct 20, 2015)

The radar hardware is made by Bosch. You can look up the specs online.

What they're doing in software however is really what matters. It's interesting to note that while Google and the other players are insisting on Lidar, Elon has said he doesn't think Tesla will need it. His recent tweet suggests they might have a lidar type of solution by using the existing radar hardware to create a point cloud.


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## james connolly (Apr 11, 2016)

Here's some data on a Bosch radar unit.
http://www.bosch-mobility-solutions...l_CO_PC_Driver-Assistance_641.html?compId=146

So this is what I think is going on. The radar sends out a single pulse but the receiving antenna has an array of 6 antennas to measure phase and hence calculate position. I wonder if this is optimised for the horizontal or vertical ? Elon mentioned that overhead signs are an issue, so I'm thinking the antenna array is optimised for the horizontal . I suppose you could just turn the radar unit through 90 degrees.

BTW....a true phased array radar has an array for both transmitting and receiving. Instead of just sending out a single pulse in all directions it can direct the beam and raster the environment to build up a picture.

James


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## MelindaV (Apr 2, 2016)

I think too much emphasis is being put on a single wreck where autopilot was engaged, but used outside of it's current limitations. If it interpreted the side of a trailer as a sign or not is irrelevant as the current system is designed to follow lane markers and vehicles traveling in the same direction. 
At it's current iteration, the system isn't broken or needing to be fixed. It is what it is and its crazy the blame is on the system. Tesla has said from the first announcement of AP that it would have multiple releases to build up to being fully autonomous, so why scrutinized it not acting like a fully autonomous system when they have clearly identified that it's not that (at this point)?

It would be similar to expecting my auto-on/off headlights to control the high beams when oncoming cars are detected. Because it can do one thing doesn't mean it should do everything related that it wasn't designed to do. (my car is pretty low-tech and the auto on headlights is as 'autonomous' as it gets  )

I am 100% sure, even before this wreck, the people much smarter than the majority of the public/media commenting on how it should have reacted, have been working on the next version that will go beyond the current version's limitations and have already considered how it should respond to cross traffic and on coming traffic conditions.

(that little rant wasn't directed at you James, but more at every single person I've encountered in my day to day life that has commented on Tesla screwing up and their system having dangerous flaws since the FL story was released)


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## james connolly (Apr 11, 2016)

FYI.....


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/754769913814941696
thanks changed that...


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## TrevP (Oct 20, 2015)

There's no need to embed pictures of tweets in our system. Just copy the link to the tweet and our system will fetch and embed it for you!


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/754772024657113088


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## Rick59 (Jul 20, 2016)

Just read the Electrek article on Autopilot 2 that will use new sensors. Does anyone know if this new system will make it to the M3?

https://electrek.co/2016/08/11/tesla-autopilot-2-0-next-gen-radar-triple-camera-production/


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## TrevP (Oct 20, 2015)

Yes, at the very least. 

Autopilot technology is still improving and will not wait for Model 3, it's going into Model S and X as soon as it's ready and whatever version is out when the Model 3 arrives is the minimum that will be implemented.


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## Rick59 (Jul 20, 2016)

I'm thinking more about the sensor hardware since the design is done.


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## TrevP (Oct 20, 2015)

If they know in advance what they're going to do in terms of the AP 2.0 hardware then the wiring harness and general placement of the sensors are taken into account for the M3 design.


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## AZ Desert Driver (May 2, 2016)

OK - so are they building the wiring harness into the September Model S production line? How long does it take to go from drafting table to hardwired on the production line? Would that be "now"????

I am anxious for my M3, so anxious that I probably going to execute a MS order soon. How soon? As soon as AP2 hardware is on the production line!! Tell me its SO!


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## Rick59 (Jul 20, 2016)

Autopilot price on the Model S is now $4,000 in Canada. Impact on Model 3?


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## MelindaV (Apr 2, 2016)

Rick59 said:


> Autopilot price on the Model S is now $4,000 in Canada. Impact on Model 3?


I'm sure if you were to ask a current AP owner if paying the additional $500 is worth having AP, they would say absolutely. 
It is still far and away better than any other manufacturer's semi-autonomous features, and for no more or less $


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## chopr147 (May 23, 2016)

$4000 is a bit much but I would probably still get. I just can't see having a Tesla w/o AP. (My opinion) I have had my S for a week now and I love playing with the AP to see what it can do. It is so far and so above my wife's 2016 Lexus "Lane assist" to not even be in the same conversation. Her lane assist works like a drunken driver who's been drinking for days


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## TrevP (Oct 20, 2015)

Part of me wants to stay optimistic about options pricing on Model 3 given its target into the mainstream and economies of scale but these constant price increases of Model S options have me very worried that Tesla is heading into unreasonable territory.

Elon did say the dual motor option would be less than a Model S but he didn't say how much...

Now Autopilot has gone up in price. Now, I understand Tesla is wanting to capitalize on the wealthiness of early adopters of the Model S, some of whom will upgrade at any cost, in order to make high profits to help fund Model 3 R&D but it's unreasonable to have to pay these crazy prices on a car with a base price of $35K.

You can't charge 10% of the car's base price for a SINGLE option let alone $20K for a battery upgrade. It's madness. If Tesla wants healthy margins on Model 3 they will have to price things in such a way that there's decent uptake on them. Not too many people buy base-level cars.


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## JWardell (May 9, 2016)

I absolutely want autopilot on my 3 when it arrives, but I don't think I will be shelling out an additional 11% of the price for it. The car is not going to accessible to all and changing the world if all the innovations are out of reach. I'm sure technology and volume will bring costs down over the next year or so, but I'm not confident they will pass that on to the consumer.


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## TrevP (Oct 20, 2015)

Dont get me wrong, I want autopilot as well but if the goal is safety and they want adoption then I think $4k is too steep a price.


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## Rick59 (Jul 20, 2016)

Assuming a base price of $42,000 CDN and the current tax structure, I think there will be resistance once the pre-tax cost reaches $55,000. If they get too greedy, their 400,000 reservations are going to start drying up.


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## TrevP (Oct 20, 2015)

I agree with you. I'm budgeting $60K but I'd never consider it if I hadn't already started saving a couple of years ago along with the new incentives. If the HST, if not the provincial portion, is eliminated that will help too but I think a lot of people are in for sticker shock given that Tesla coverts directly from USD. Model S is already over 40% more expensive then it used to be with exchange and options pricing.


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## MelindaV (Apr 2, 2016)

TrevP said:


> Model S is already over 40% more expensive then it used to be with exchange and options pricing.


and who knows what the US/Canada/World economy will do to the exchange rates between now and when the Model 3 is ready to start configuring. At least we know Tesla does adjust the foreign delivered vehicle prices on a regular basis to align with the exchange rates.


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## SpdBug (May 3, 2016)

That puts me at $83k for a Model 3 (using current Model S pricing). Guess I better start my PB&J diet.


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## AZ Desert Driver (May 2, 2016)

SpdBug said:


> That puts me at $83k for a Model 3 (using current Model S pricing). Guess I better start my PB&J diet.


As much as I am excited about a Model 3- starting with its $35,000 base. But when I added options it too increased a bunch. Yesterday, I pulled the trigger on a MS60D that, with my options was $82,700 - damn close to the $83k above.
Now I'm wondering...will I turn in the "legend" on the offspring? Will I keep the big guy and not step up at all on the 3? will I buy the 3 as the wifes car? and be a two timer?


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## chopr147 (May 23, 2016)

Really tough questions
Same boat as you. Could not wait, S delivered last week and keeping reservation for either my wife or me. We'll figure that out when the time comes. If I knew I was getting an S I would have gotten her a 2 yr lease but we are in a 3 yr.and may have to put off the 3 until 2019. Not a bad place to be.


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## AZ Desert Driver (May 2, 2016)

chopr147 said:


> Really tough questions
> Same boat as you. Could not wait, S delivered last week and keeping reservation for either my wife or me. We'll figure that out when the time comes. If I knew I was getting an S I would have gotten her a 2 yr lease but we are in a 3 yr.and may have to put off the 3 until 2019. Not a bad place to be.


Congrats...I looked hard at a two year lease and thought that If I Like the Tesla and its price, then just keep it. If I love the thing, and it is too expensive to buy at the end of the lease - anyway, the lease just violated my buy-and-hold philosophy. I'm paying cash for the MS and not thinking of selling for 10 years. Adding to the fleet, perhaps, but not selling.


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## Gangus (Apr 18, 2016)

My budget is going to be around 60-65k and hopefully will get the tax incentive. I was hoping to be able to load this thing up and get ludicrous, but I don't think thats going to happen. I really hope that the M3 doesn't cap out at like 85K or something. If it does I might not get this thing. I really wanted to get all the cool goodies for my next car. It would be really nice If Tesla would at least let us know where the Model 3 will top off at. At least then buyers will know what to expect and know if they can afford it or not. I know I will be really disappointed if its loaded up price ends up at some crazy number. I guess we all won't know until the 2nd reveal. Until then I will be praying to the TESLA Gods. :innocent:


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## MelindaV (Apr 2, 2016)

I would be really surprised if you will get Ludicrous for $65k. my guess would be checking most of the boxes plus ludicrous would be much closer to the price @SpdBug listed (+$80k)


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## Gangus (Apr 18, 2016)

Hopefully not, but your probably right. I guess I will be on the PB&J diet as well. Maybe sell a kidney, who knows:mask:


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## Dan Detweiler (Apr 8, 2016)

Who needs two kidneys? Sell one. For that matter, maybe I can get buy with one eye, one lung and one leg too. 

Dan


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## AZ Desert Driver (May 2, 2016)

Got a question for those that have used "Lane Keeping". Seems like the design is to keep car centered between the lane marking. But if the road is beat up, CAN you shift toward the left marking - and not be forced into center?


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## chopr147 (May 23, 2016)

You can't really steer it too hard w/o disabling it. At times I don't like how close it gets to cars on my right and end up disabling it when trying to "lightly" correct it. I was on a parkway with really beat up lane markings, pothole fills etc.... and it surprisingly kept it's lane. Seemed confused at times but did stay on point.


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## MelindaV (Apr 2, 2016)

AZ Desert Driver said:


> Got a question for those that have used "Lane Keeping". Seems like the design is to keep car centered between the lane marking. But if the road is beat up, CAN you shift toward the left marking - and not be forced into center?


not having used it, but from other's accounts/videos you would want to disengage AP at those spots and take over steering, then after past that part of the road re-engage AP.
There was an interesting AP video, that I am sure if I went looking for it would never find it again, where the driver documented his typical home to work drive. It went from a suburb neighborhood to country road to freeway to urban highway. Along the way he timed the amount of time on AP and talked about where it was practical to use it and not, manually turning it off and back on at specific areas because of either known road conditions or known AP difficult areas.


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## AZ Desert Driver (May 2, 2016)

I saw the design type video where it shows a lane keeping bell curve (short wings, high peak) with the center of the bell near center of lane- very minor drift compared to manual. Very impressive - if the center of the lane is where you want to be. What I was thinking was a way to shift that bell from dead center to a few inches to the left but still let it do its thing.


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## chopr147 (May 23, 2016)

I don't believe there is any adjustment available for that. Maybe someone who has had an S for more than a week can answer definetely


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## MelindaV (Apr 2, 2016)

I think this was the video I was remembering. obviously an earlier AP version (filmed in April '16)


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## AZ Desert Driver (May 2, 2016)

watching the video now....you guys have expressed some logic that says the AP is flakey when cars are beside it. The video says he can put in an offset to speed limit. makes some sense that an offset COULD be there in lane keeping. 
My car is on order (Oct delivery) so I'll get to find some of these out myself. I was thinking somebody found an easter-egg for lane keeping offset.


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