# Various Issues with EVs in Winter



## Guest (Mar 4, 2019)

[mod note: relocated from Teslas in Cold Weather thread]

And if you read what I actually said, then I said "except drivetrain". Well I actually meant suspension, tire traction, motor and inverter. I should have added that I exclude battery from being winter friendly.
If you have never deep-dived into other EV solutions on the market then... well... how can one do a comparison.

I can count SOME "well-below-premium-class" performers.
HVAC system is excessively simplistic and dumb.
Battery chemistry struggles in cold.
Parasitic load is humongous (including 12V battery problems). Not just winter-based problem.
Battery heating solution is not acceptable (Model 3 only).
All sensors (except front-looking cameras) are not able to clean themselves from minimal dirt. Some of them can't even handle snow.
There are ZERO thermal radiation chill covers for cold weather. Glass surfaces can't be covered with any sound/thermal insulation.
Model X windshield can't be defrosted optimally. No windshield electric heating on any Tesla.

I believe that is enough for starters.


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## LucyferSam (Sep 13, 2017)

arnis said:


> And if you read what I actually said, then I said "except drivetrain". Well I actually meant suspension, tire traction, motor and inverter. I should have added that I exclude battery from being winter friendly.
> If you have never deep-dived into other EV solutions on the market then... well... how can one do a comparison.
> 
> I can count SOME "well-below-premium-class" performers.
> ...


And as I said, in our worst winter in a long time, I have had zero issue, comparing to previous and current ICE vehicles.
I love the HVAC system, by far the best of any car I have ever been in, including Toyota, Ford, BMW, and Nissan.
The battery chemistry handles the cold just fine. There is some range loss as one would expect, but the battery related range loss at sub zero temps is only about 10-15% which is quite good.
I have never had issue with parasitic load.
I have never had issues with the battery heating system. I have my car set to start charging at 4:30am and I usually have a bit of regen available in the morning when I leave. On occasions where the charge need was very minimal or I don't go out in the morning I occasionally have power restricted for a short while. Big deal.
My autopilot has handled just fine all winter and I haven't actively cleaned the main sensors once (I do occasionally clean the rear camera so it's easier to use when backing up. Sensor cleaning is a non-issue.

Your expectations for what makes a good winter car must be so far outside the norm that I have never seen a car that would meet your requirements and yet you state as though it were fact that Tesla's are not good in winter.

[mod edit: removed snark]


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## Guest (Mar 5, 2019)

Well maybe you need to raise the bar?


LucyferSam said:


> I love the HVAC system, by far the best of any car I have ever been in, including Toyota, Ford, BMW, and Nissan.


Does Tesla sense pollutants in the air and switch to recirculation BEFORE any smell gets into the vehicle? No. BMW, VW, Audi, Mercedes? Yes
Can you adjust face vent air temperature to be any lower than all else? No. Many other vehicles: Yes.


LucyferSam said:


> The battery chemistry handles the cold just fine.


You call it fine: Vehicle is unable to charge if chemistry below 0*C? Most other EV's can easily charge at -10*C without wasting energy on heating half a ton of matter under the floor.


LucyferSam said:


> I have never had issue with parasitic load.


Have you ever left your vehicle unplugged for a week? Do it in ANY other EV or ICE or PHEV and compare. Tell me the results.


LucyferSam said:


> and I usually have a bit of regen available in the morning when I leave.


Well how about having a bit of regen reduction not a bit of regen available?
Isn't it questionable when a TINY 24kWh battery pack can do 20kW of regen with a battery that is +2*C while Tesla can't do even 10kW with 100kWh pack?

You should raise the bar from "I see no problems" to
it's "as good as" or "better than".

[mod edit: removed snark]


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## FRC (Aug 4, 2018)

JWardell said:


> Frankly I really want @arnis to get his model 3 soon so we can put an end to his years of grumpiness


Why in the world is this person waiting and waiting for such an obviously HORRIBLE car?


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## PNWmisty (Aug 19, 2017)

FRC said:


> Why in the world is this person waiting and waiting for such an obviously HORRIBLE car?


I learned a long time ago that if the pieces of the puzzle don't fit, they probably belong to another puzzle.

I doubt a person valuing an HVAC that can automatically sense pollution and switch to recirculate or have a separate temperature control for face vents or who values a higher regen limit over battery longevity (especially considering that a higher regen limit is only of benefit during faster stops or really steep grades) would ever want to buy a Model 3 (regardless of the impression they create). Because it has none of those things. There are better cars out there for people like this.


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## LucyferSam (Sep 13, 2017)

arnis said:


> Well maybe you need to raise the bar?
> 
> Does Tesla sense pollutants in the air and switch to recirculation BEFORE any smell gets into the vehicle? No. BMW, VW, Audi, Mercedes? Yes
> Can you adjust face vent air temperature to be any lower than all else? No. Many other vehicles: Yes.
> ...


Having driven a Mode 3 for a year and many other cars, and when you claim these things are factually true strenghts/weaknesses instead of your personal prefrences, yes I call this nonsense.

I live in the midwest, home to countless hog and poultry confinements, as well as heavy fertilizer use in the spring and it handles the smells better than any car I've had here. I suspect there are other cars that can do an even better job (like the S or X), but that doesn't make it bad an certainly not bad compared to other cars I've been in at the same price point. Not that it has anything to do with winter driving...

My main goal with air flow is to never allow it to point at my face. The model 3 is the first vehicle I've ever been in that allows me to adjust to airflow the way I want it to keep the ambient temperature comfortable while feeling no airflow.

I left the vehicle at the airport for 2 weeks, came back to <15% lower battery than when I left. That's pretty good in my book and more than functional. Sure and ICE doesn't loose range but any BEV or PHEV does and if the car claims it doesn't it's most likely both lying and not taking good care of its battery.

You fail to notice that Tesla has by far the best battery lifetime of any vehicle out there. They do this by managing the charge rates based on temperature of the battery. There is not some magic chemistry other cars use that lets them use more regen or charge more below 0C, they do it by not caring what impact it has on their cells lifetime. I would much rather sacrifice some regen in the cold and still have my battery in good condition 10 years from now than constantly dump short duration high current into it and sacrifice that longevity. There is no lithium based chemistry that doesn't suffer if you charge at high rates below 0C. Plus, as I said, my car lives outside permanently and not once in the year I've had it has it ever had trouble charging, including when the real outside temperature was ~ -26C. Tesla's battery packs are generally considered the gold standard by every engineering review of them I've seen, and the Model 3 pack the strongest of their lineup, so I find it more than a little odd that you try to call it a weakness.

There is not another car I would choose to drive on the market even close to the price point I paid for my 3. I honestly have no idea why you hang out on this forum as you seem to hate the car and cherry pick features from other cars without considering the whole feature set as a reason Tesla's are inferior and as though it makes you factually correct when stating opinions. You can have your preferences for vehicle features, which can be completely different or even opposite mine and that's fine. But when you start claiming your opinions are fact and calling anyone who can't see that supposed "truth" hopeless emotional fanboys you just come across as an arrogant jerk.


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## joelliot (Jan 25, 2018)

arnis said:


> You call it fine: Vehicle is unable to charge if chemistry below 0*C? Most other EV's can easily charge at -10*C without wasting energy on heating half a ton of matter under the floor.
> 
> Well how about having a bit of regen reduction not a bit of regen available?
> Isn't it questionable when a TINY 24kWh battery pack can do 20kW of regen with a battery that is +2*C while Tesla can't do even 10kW with 100kWh pack?


...cannot comment on the other features, but what cars are you referring to? My understanding is that charging below 0C for a lithium battery will significantly degrade the life of the battery.


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## Guest (Mar 6, 2019)

joelliot said:


> ...cannot comment on the other features, but what cars are you referring to? My understanding is that charging below 0C for a lithium battery will significantly degrade the life of the battery.


This applies to specific chemistry ****tail, does not apply to majority of EV's in the whole wild world.


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## ADK46 (Aug 4, 2018)

arnis said:


> This applies to specific chemistry ****tail, does not apply to majority of EV's in the whole wild world.


I don't believe this is true, according to my readings. That other cars allow it is not evidence that they have a significantly different chemistry in this respect. Can you give us a link? It would have to show a plot of degradation vs. charging temperature for various types of cells.


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## Mesprit87 (Oct 29, 2017)

arnis said:


> This applies to specific chemistry ****tail, does not apply to majority of EV's in the whole wild world.


Yes but we live in the whole wild world! And that is what is availble to us. I get your arguments.
We all wish we could get the perfect electric car, I've had a few désillusions myself this winter. But I would buy that car again (maybe in a more organized way Tesla!) And yes I have to live with the winter downside of driving an electric car. 
I'm a down to hearth guy and no fanboy for sure as I say things as they are to anybody asking about my car.
As been said earlier my choice was base on longevity and at this point, I think Tesla have proven to be on the conservative side of the choice that they could have made in battery management and chemistry.


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## Guest (Mar 6, 2019)

ADK46 said:


> I don't believe this is true, according to my readings. That other cars allow it is not evidence that they have a significantly different chemistry in this respect. Can you give us a link? It would have to show a plot of degradation vs. charging temperature for various types of cells.


This is a good start:





I've heard that multiple times: "charging below 0*C is going to degrade li-ion battery".
Well, my EV is a perfect example of that being not true for many li-ion blends.
139 000 km, 5 years, 8% degradation. Lots of charging (2-3 months per year) when battery is below freezing.
While EXPECTED degradation at that mileage is twice of that. 
Today it was -20*C (well that is exceptional for March but still).


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## iChris93 (Feb 3, 2017)

arnis said:


> This is a good start:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Neat, which EV?

Why is that the expected degradation?


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## LucyferSam (Sep 13, 2017)

iChris93 said:


> Neat, which EV?
> 
> Why is that the expected degradation?


It should also be pointed out that ambient temperature and battery temperature are not the same thing... I charge regularly in temps well below -10C, and this year several times in sub -20C with no issues and no expected additional battery degradation. This is done by using a trickle charge to warm up the battery or in exteme cases running some power through the motor to use the waste heat to warm the battery pack. Batteries warm up to safe full charge temperatures (at least full AC charge rates, supercharger rates require a considerably warmer battery for safe full rate charging) quite quickly and it really is a non-issue. This is all based on actual experience with a model 3 since last January. Anyone claiming that the 3 has issues charging in cold weather is either ignorant or lying.


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## PNWmisty (Aug 19, 2017)

arnis said:


> This is a good start:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


OK, I watched the video you recommended at x1.75 speed as the presenter is a very slow talker and the video was overly long.

My key takeaway:

Tesla has the most li-ion battery degradation testing knowledge by far and is light years ahead of GMC who are basically bumbling into this li-ion battery technology with a foggy idea of how different additives and temperatures affect cycle life.

It's worth noting that the video you provided to support your contention that Tesla batteries are somehow inferior in cold weather charging did not even discuss cycle life in terms of cold weather charging. All the lifecycle testing was done above room temperature (and most of it at 40C-60C).

In other words, it appears you are simply trying to present Tesla battery technology in a negative light without having any facts to support your negativity.


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## Guest (Mar 6, 2019)

Well, the "crappiest" EV one can get (as far as many think). 
2014 Leaf. What is everybody's expectation for Leaf battery degradation annually? 
Now compare my results. It's a difference of more than twice.
Add huge mileage (I'm a heavy user) - therefore cycle depth and count.

Some snips done at different temps. Forgot to make a charging screenshot when battery was at -10,5*C
Found a pair of shots at -6,4*C. At around 80% SOC charge rate starts to drop slowly.

2.4kW charging rate on 24kWh battery.
Therefore expected 7,5kW rate on 75kWh battery (same C-rate).
Actual charge rate at -6,4*C= 0kW on 75-100kWh battery.
















PNWmisty. So nice that you actually watched the video. Fast play is totally fine. I do it all the time.



PNWmisty said:


> In other words, it appears you are simply trying to present Tesla battery technology in a negative light without having any facts to support your negativity.


Do you consider unchargeable battery below 0*C as "industry standard" or better than average?

I consider it as a huge drawback. Pretty much the same importance as rapidly degrading battery at 40*C (some other chemistries plus hot Phoenix or similar).
If you think that I'm incorrect then please show me one Tesla that can accept charge while battery below 0*C.


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## PNWmisty (Aug 19, 2017)

arnis said:


> Do you consider unchargeable battery below 0*C as "industry standard" or better than average?
> .


Batteries charge below 0C ambient all the time. They can charge down to as cold as it gets anywhere on earth due to their excellent battery thermal management system that grew out of Tesla's multi-year lead in battery thermal management testing. No EV maker knows as much about battery chemistries, battery degradation and thermal management than Tesla.

Tesla is the only EV manufacturer that has a thermal management system that comes in direct contact with the center of every cell. This allows precise thermal regulation of the battery temperature when necessary so charging at low temperatures is not a problem.

So, yes, Tesla's battery management is not only better than the industry average, it's the best in the industry. Your Leaf may have only slightly worse degradation than a Model 3 could expect in the same conditions but the battery in the Leaf has a known problem in hot temperatures so you are fortunate to live in a cool climate. The Tesla is superior in so many ways it's not even funny but if you like your Leaf so much I encourage you to stick with it. You might be surprised how soon your battery falls off the degradation cliff, even in your cool climate. Tesla can't afford to put out batteries that turn to junk in hot OR cold climates and the batteries in the Model 3 are, by far, the most advanced of any battery in any EV anywhere in the world. This is supported by reams of data and millions of miles of testing.

I would like to know what your motivation is for trying to create the impression there is something wrong with Tesla batteries and why you pretend you will be buying a Model 3 as soon as it's available in your area when you have only negative things to say about the Model 3. Most soon-to-be-Tesla-owners are excited, not negative Nellie's. It makes zero sense.


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## Michael Russo (Oct 15, 2016)

Folks, a little reminder. We favor a constructive and civil debate here, and will be ruthless with posts containing unnecessarily snarky tone or offensive content towards other members.

It’s is ok to disagree, to occasionally denote of a certain frustrations, yet let’s be patient with eachother and remember that each of us is entitled to a different perspective, whether because of personality, cultural difference or own experiences.

Let’s keep this the friendliest place for Model ≡ and, in general, all T≡SLA enthusiasts!

Thanks,
Mike


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## iChris93 (Feb 3, 2017)

PNWmisty said:


> Tesla is the only EV manufacturer that has a thermal management system that comes in direct contact with the center of every cell.


I agree with most of what you said, but how does the thermal management come in direct contact with the center of every cell? The coolant goes around the casing of each cell, but not through it.


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## joelliot (Jan 25, 2018)

arnis said:


> Do you consider unchargeable battery below 0*C as "industry standard" or better than average?
> 
> I consider it as a huge drawback. Pretty much the same importance as rapidly degrading battery at 40*C (some other chemistries plus hot Phoenix or similar).
> If you think that I'm incorrect then please show me one Tesla that can accept charge while battery below 0*C.


I think there might be a misunderstanding. The Tesla can easily charge below 0C, they have the ability to heat the battery much like the leaf. It is conveniently below 0C here so I can use my car as an example.


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## PNWmisty (Aug 19, 2017)

iChris93 said:


> I agree with most of what you said, but how does the thermal management come in direct contact with the center of every cell? The coolant goes around the casing of each cell, but not through it.


The cells are cylinders and the coolant pipes are wrapped around the center of every cell. The metal battery casing conducts the cold/warm to each end of each cell to ensure even heating or cooling of each individual cell.

Contrast that to the new Polestar 2 (Volvo's performance EV that is due in 2020). The Polestar 2 uses pouch cells (think of a bunch of Pop Tarts set in a small shoebox like index cards in a file). This metal "shoebox" is set on a cold plate. It is not very effective thermal management because the coolant does not travel inside the shoebox, it only cools the bottom of the box they are standing in.


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## iChris93 (Feb 3, 2017)

PNWmisty said:


> The cells are cylinders and the coolant pipes are wrapped around the center of every cell. The metal battery casing conducts the cold/warm to each end of each cell to ensure even heating or cooling of each individual cell.
> 
> Contrast that to the new Polestar 2 (Volvo's performance EV that is due in 2020). The Polestar 2 uses pouch cells (think of a bunch of Pop Tarts set in a small shoebox like index cards in a file). This metal "shoebox" is set on a cold plate. It is not very effective thermal management because the coolant does not travel inside the shoebox, it only cools the bottom of the box they are standing in.


I see what you mean now. I was thinking more like the core of the cell.


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## Guest (Mar 7, 2019)

PNWmisty said:


> Tesla is the only EV manufacturer that has a thermal management system that comes in direct contact with the center of every cell.


Center of the cell is the core of the cell. Coolant passes around cells. From one side. One side of cylindrical cell is at different temperature as the other side of the cell touches the second row cell.


PNWmisty said:


> ou might be surprised how soon your battery falls off the degradation cliff, even in your cool climate.


This is excessively funny because it has been said from day 1 since 2011. Same thing was repeated with every EV. My car is 5 years old. How many decades I have to wait until that "cliff" happens?


joelliot said:


> The Tesla can easily charge below 0C


Well ambient can definitely be below 0C but not the battery. Not a single temperature sensor. If any of those shows 0*C or lower, vehicle will not accept charge. It will consume power but it is not for charging, it is for heating the pack.
It appears to be totally fine - if it is below 0*C it will just preheat the pack and then charge.
But the thing is.... it's below freezing for many months here and there (Norway for example). Warming up that huge pack will consume electrical energy. Energy that will not move the vehicle.. at all.
Overall fuel/energy efficiency (per distance travelled annually) drops dramatically.

Having a "very long lasting battery with almost no degradation over 20 years of use" is not worth it, if it costs many MWh of extra energy just to keep the pack in ideal thermal range.
As battery chemistry advances over time, in 2038 it might be funny to consider 100kWh Tesla pack (with 80% useful capacity) from 2018 to be ANY more useful than Tesla pack with 70% useful capacity.
Therefore it makes more sense to waste less resources during 20 years of vehicle lifetime and accept additional 2-5kWh of capacity loss over those years.

It's all a very long and complex story of actual carbon footprint of any particular thing.
Imagine replacing incandescent bulb that consumes 100 units of electricity over 40 years in basement that is hardly ever used..
with a LED bulb that consumes 5 units of electricity over 40 years in that same basement. 
Making incandescent bulb requires 10 units of electricity, making LED requires 200 units of electricity. 
So does it make any good...replacing oldschool with newschool?
Now same story with kitchen lights. 100 000 units of energy over 40 years. Requires 40 bulbs. Replaced with LED. 5 000 units of energy, requires 4 bulbs.


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## PNWmisty (Aug 19, 2017)

Arnis, you have raised a lot of inconsequential "issues" with Ev's in winter. But the bottom line is, are they a huge improvement over ICE vehicles, both from an environmental standpoint and also from a convenience/personal enjoyment standpoint. You have multiple Tesla Model 3 owners here patiently explaining how they have been using their cars in pretty extreme winter conditions and most of these supposed problems you raised are not even consequential let alone a problem. How much real winter experience do you have with a Model 3?

Shouldn't you be listening to the actual owners who have been using their Model 3's in exactly the conditions you claim are problematic? Especially considering that you don't have a Model 3. Our energy usage and greenhouse footprint has gone way down vs. the two gas cars we replaced with Model 3's. We have a dedicated electrical meter for charging our two Model 3's (and LED carport lighting) so I know almost exactly how much they are drawing.

Why do you focus on negative "issues" that are simply not important in everyday usage? It's not normal. Particularly not for someone who is supposedly waiting for their brand spanking new Model 3 to be delivered.


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## Guest (Mar 7, 2019)

PNWmisty said:


> We have a dedicated electrical meter for charging our two Model 3's (and LED carport lighting) so I know almost exactly how much they are drawing.


What is the actual kWh per 100km/100mi consumption difference in winter and summer? How long winter you have (months below freezing).



PNWmisty said:


> Why do you focus on negative "issues" that are simply not important in everyday usage? It's not normal. Particularly not for someone who is supposedly waiting for their brand spanking new Model 3 to be delivered.


Efficiency of EV is as important as efficiency of ICE vehicle.
Otherwise we all could just blindly accept quiet clean gasoline V8 muscles or hydrogen vehicles. They are clean. Hydrogen vehicles are electric. It's possible to make them as fast as Model 3. But they are much much less efficient.
This is the thing. End users DO NOT CARE. They want 5 minute refill, the end. I care. As an engineer, I care. I do not dare to create a "new product on old market" that is as inefficient as the old one, or nearly as inefficient as the old one. If there is a better solution available (which is a BEV).

Emotional blind bragging of any particular result (awesome Model 3 for example) is irresponsible from the eyes of responsible engineers. This is why I heavily disapprove hydrogen vehicles for example.

IF Model 3 was the most efficient vehicle on the market, I would be "more calm and happy". But it is not. Ioniq, for example, shows much higher efficiencies in real world (from wall, incl winter). Therefore there is a direction to strive for. 
"Good enough" is definitely not enough to be the best.


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## PNWmisty (Aug 19, 2017)

arnis said:


> What is the actual kWh per 100km/100mi consumption difference in winter and summer? How long winter you have (months below freezing).
> 
> Efficiency of EV is as important as efficiency of ICE vehicle.
> Otherwise we all could just blindly accept quiet clean gasoline V8 muscles or hydrogen vehicles. They are clean. Hydrogen vehicles are electric. It's possible to make them as fast as Model 3. But they are much much less efficient.


Why are you telling us you are buying a Model 3 if the Ioniq is so much more efficient?

The most efficient EV in the world doesn't do any good if no one wants it. The Ioniq only sold a few hundred units last year. The Model 3 is far more efficient than any of the long range EV's out there. They can't compete. The Ioniq only goes 124 miles under ideal conditions and in wintery weather it loses range just like all EV's.

But answer my questions: Why are you buying a Model 3 if all you can do is raise a whole slew of very questionable criticisms and how much first hand experience do you have with a Model 3 in winter conditions? Many of us have been using the Model 3 under harsh winter conditions with excellent results. That's 2 questions.


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## FRC (Aug 4, 2018)

arnis said:


> What is the actual kWh per 100km/100mi consumption difference in winter and summer? How long winter you have (months below freezing).
> 
> Efficiency of EV is as important as efficiency of ICE vehicle.
> Otherwise we all could just blindly accept quiet clean gasoline V8 muscles or hydrogen vehicles. They are clean. Hydrogen vehicles are electric. It's possible to make them as fast as Model 3. But they are much much less efficient.
> ...


If engineers produce "the best" possible vehicle and nobody wants it, what has been accomplished? I believe that most here would agree that Tesla is designing and building innovative, game changing, exceptional vehicles that are in great demand. Perhaps. after you become an owner your gripes about the car may have some validity. Until then, why not let us enjoy our vehicles in peace?


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## FRC (Aug 4, 2018)

Only one reasonable solution... @Lovesword beat me to it. Now where is that ignore button? Found it!!


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## Love (Sep 13, 2017)

FRC said:


> Only one reasonable solution... @Lovesword beat me to it. Now where is that ignore button? Found it!!


It's all you can do. Or just visit here less and less...

I've taken to the later.


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## PNWmisty (Aug 19, 2017)

FRC said:


> Perhaps. after you become an owner your gripes about the car may have some validity.


You are assuming he's actually going to take delivery of a Tesla Model 3. I'm pretty sure that day will never arrive.

It's very curious to watch someone with zero first hand experience argue with those who are effectively and efficiently using it everyday in the very conditions he claims it doesn't work well.


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## iChris93 (Feb 3, 2017)

arnis said:


> What is the actual kWh per 100km/100mi consumption difference in winter and summer? How long winter you have (months below freezing).
> 
> Efficiency of EV is as important as efficiency of ICE vehicle.
> Otherwise we all could just blindly accept quiet clean gasoline V8 muscles or hydrogen vehicles. They are clean. Hydrogen vehicles are electric. It's possible to make them as fast as Model 3. But they are much much less efficient.
> ...


Look at those goal posts move. Now its efficiency.


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## iChris93 (Feb 3, 2017)

Lovesword said:


> Or just visit here less and less...


I'd hate to see you leave!


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## Guest (Mar 8, 2019)

Last 5 posts are offtopics. But they are welcome to stay.
If I post something, it is easily "relocated" for any random reason. 
Well, clearly moderators are subjective: giving privileges to those who they agree with.
Freedom of speech just failed you guys.



iChris93 said:


> Look at those goal posts move. Now its efficiency.


Well YES. Read the title of this thread and dare to say that again:laughing:


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## iChris93 (Feb 3, 2017)

arnis said:


> Last 5 posts are offtopics. But they are welcome to stay.
> If I post something, it is easily "relocated" for any random reason.
> Well, clearly moderators are subjective: giving privileges to those who they agree with.
> Freedom of speech just failed you guys.
> ...


There's a report button. Use as you see fit.


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## Guest (Mar 8, 2019)

There is a human on the other side. Reports are easily ignored. This particular forum doesn't provide feedback on reports.


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