# NTSB calls Tesla’s Full Self Driving “misleading and irresponsible”



## evdude88

Breaking news from like 20 mins ago. It seems the NTSB is investigating Tesla's FSD:

https://www.wsj.com/articles/elon-m...safety-authority-11632043803?mod=hp_lead_pos3https://wegoelectric.net/ntsb-calls-teslas-full-self-driving-misleading-and-irresponsible/
We will probably see it all over the news later today


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## bwilson4web

Sounds like someone is pissed they didn't think of it first:
​_*NTSB calls Tesla's Full Self Driving "misleading and irresponsible"*_​​Bob Wilson


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## iChris93

I agree with the NTSB. The Full Self Driving Tesla sells is misleading.


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## MJJ

In order to be misled, you have to allow yourself to be led. I think Tesla has been clear at every turn that the driver is responsible for the vehicle. The owners manual beats this dead horse mercilessly. The software issues a constant flow of warnings and alerts. In order to enable any autonomous feature you need to click that you acknowledge your responsibility and the risks. Yet somehow we are concerned that everyone is confused by the meaning and current state of the three words “Full Self Driving.” 

When did we lose track that FSD is the goal, not the current reality?


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## Nom

@MJJ - fair. But … I'm trying to think of anything else out there with a name that describes what the product 'does' but doesn't actually do it. Can't think of it. Imagine a product was called ..: 'Mows lawn on its own' … but needs you to walk behind it holding the handle and you need to make every right turn.

And remember, much of government regulation is meant to protect those that aren't the sharpest tools in the toolbox or are too impatient to take a moment to understand and think about what they are buying or doing. Need to protect them from themselves. Remember McDonalds and the hot coffee?


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## slacker775

Maybe I’m an old curmudgeon but if the name ‘Autopilot’ overrides everything such as all of the warnings issued before and during use somehow still tell the end user that they can completely ignore everything, then that user is simply a moron and gets what they deserve. As has been mentioned as nauseous, boats and plains have ‘autopilot’ capabilities but none of those convey unsupervised use. There are a myriad of other offerings with names that suggest much more capability than are actually provided.


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## MJJ

I’ll counter “name other products that don’t deliver” by saying, well, just about any other software you get that’s beta. Or release versions, for that matter. 

I’m sympathetic to consumer protection, my point was that Tesla has gone out of their way to manage expectations. They are not trying to pull any wool over anyone’s eyes, and I think the NHTSB should focus on those who are.


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## FRC

slacker775 said:


> Maybe I'm an old curmudgeon but if the name 'Autopilot' overrides everything such as all of the warnings issued before and during use somehow still tell the end user that they can completely ignore everything, then that user is simply a moron and gets what they deserve. As has been mentioned as nauseous, boats and plains have 'autopilot' capabilities but none of those convey unsupervised use. There are a myriad of other offerings with names that suggest much more capability than are actually provided.


You're talking autopilot; NTSB is talking Full Self Driving. Big difference.


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## DocScott

Elon appeared on 60 Minutes being very casual about having his hands on the wheel while on Autopilot. That could certainly send the message that those warnings in the manual can be ignored.






I think the NTSB is right on the names. Autopilot is not misleading or irresponsible, and is not much different than the names for L2 systems other manufacturers use. But Full Self-Driving is just a lie. Even as beta, it's a lie. If a software company releases a beta of a word processor, I expect it to be able to process words. If it's a beta of Kerbal Space Program, I expect it to have Kerbals and a space program.

But FSD has been around for years now, as little more than a re-branded Enhanced Autopilot, with promised of more down the line. During that time, it was _not_ a beta of Full Self-Driving, it was a beta of Enhanced Autopilot.

The FSD name is misleading. Eventually, Tesla may release something where the name is appropriate, but if I had kept a Tesla after a test drive and told them that I'd pay for it eventually, I don't think that would fly...


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## iChris93

How long can they hide behind beta anyways?


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## Klaus-rf

MJJ said:


> <snip> I think Tesla has been clear at every turn that the driver is responsible for the vehicle. The owners manual beats this dead horse mercilessly. The software issues a constant flow of warnings and alerts. In order to enable any autonomous feature you need to click that you acknowledge your responsibility and the risks. Yet somehow we are concerned that everyone is confused by the meaning and current state of the three words "Full Self Driving."


The above is ONLY true AFTER one pays their $$$ and has the car. NOWHERE in the sales brochure docs was the above mentioned in 2018, 2019, ....


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## JasonF

We can argue the phrasing and semantics of the name here all we want, but the problem is the NHTSA won't listen to us - only to the NTSB recommendations. This is a big turning point. At the very least it's quite possible that the NHTSA will order Tesla to remove the phrase "Full Self Drive" from its software and marketing materials.

Where it gets kind of iffy though is there is a lot of politics involved with vehicle regulation. I read an article recently that stated Elon Musk had only himself to blame for not getting a better deal on EV subsidies because he doesn't publicly support the current political parties or unionize. The same thing could come into play here - if the NHTSA decides to lean heavily into politics and lobbyists, Tesla could be looking at having to disable FSD on all cars until it gets official approval.


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## gary in NY

Employees have the right to unionize any time they can get a majority of the eligible employees to vote in favor. Usually such a vote comes up about once a year. As a former union president, I’m all for it when the conditions warrant it, but many times the same results can be achieved without unionization. The political implications here are another matter.


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## Bigriver

Klaus-rf said:


> The above is ONLY true AFTER one pays their $$$ and has the car. NOWHERE in the sales brochure docs was the above mentioned in 2018, 2019, ....


Partially true. From October 2016 to October 2018, the FSD description on the Tesla website, in the Design Studio where options are selected for an order, did not mention that the driver remains responsible:








https://web.archive.org/web/20181005150638/https:/www.tesla.com/modelx/design

It focuses on what FSD will ultimately be able to do. But it does note that these features are not yet available, and it is not known when they will be available. It says that both software validation and regulatory approval are between here and there.

FSD went off menu in October 2018 until it reappeared in March 2019. At this point, it listed the current capabilities and listed the future capabilities, with the following disclaimer:








https://web.archive.org/web/20190310190320/https:/www.tesla.com/models/design#autopilot

This disclaimer has stayed the same and is still online as of September 2021. It says that that active driver supervision is required.

Regarding the timing, that EVERYONE keeps saying that the website has ALWAYS said coming later this year, that is not true. From my perusing of the website archives, "coming later this year" first appeared in March 2019 and disappeared by the end of March 2020, replaced by a more vague "Upcoming". That remained the wording until "coming later this year" re-appeared in February 2021.

As to the stated topic of this thread, I do think "FSD" is misleading for what it currently does. That doesn't really get under my skin, though, because I think the Tesla website has stated enough uncertainty on the timing, and has always said it will be an evolutionary process. I bought FSD times 2 not because I thought these cars would ever pick me up at the airport by themselves, but so that I would have continuous updates to the most advanced automated driving as it becomes available, whatever that is.

I also think that for whatever portion of FSD revenue that Tesla has not taken credit for, that should be available to people to ask for a pro-rated refund.


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## shareef777

iChris93 said:


> How long can they hide behind beta anyways?


This! Are they allowed to use funds collected from FSD purchase when they've only given us beta products?


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## msjulie

This is a tangent, but every time there is mention of the $25k Tesla it seems there is also mention of Elon saying no steering wheel, no pedals etc. That makes me really wonder about

does this mean that car is really years away as clearly it's meant to only self-drive?
does it mean Tesla can built it for $15k because FSD is another $10k on top?
should I just stop listening to promises?
Sorry that sounds like a rant, not meant to be specifically but I just can't figure it all out.

I really like my 3, the super charger network is w/o a doubt superior to all others (in USA at least) but I'm not a fan-girl. A little more realism would be appreciated and make it much easier to convince regular folks of the cars' value.

My sister recently ordered a Y and she is not someone who cares to dig into all the hype, just wants a good safe car that is an EV that can do a 2x a year road trip w/o drama. I didn't really have to tell her to skip FSD because of cost but also the unknown in the promises. Hard code Tesla fans are much more likely to be tolerant of the current over-promise situation but I think that's far from mainstream. Misleading statements I think do more harm than good in the larger population.


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## FRC

@msjulie, I think you've given your sister appropriate counsel. My guess is that we'll never see the $25K Tesla(maybe he'll sell 10 of them just to keep his promise). And, you're right, ignoring the promises is likely the best option. I hate to say it, but sometimes I feel like I'd be totally happy with my car if I didn't follow this forum, and our tendency here toward negativity.

But, that ship has sailed. It's too late, I'm an addict.


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## TomT

iChris93 said:


> I agree with the NTSB. The Full Self Driving Tesla sells is misleading.


I too agree! It borders on false advertising...


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## shareef777

FRC said:


> @msjulie, I think you've given your sister appropriate counsel. My guess is that we'll never see the $25K Tesla(maybe he'll sell 10 of them just to keep his promise). And, you're right, ignoring the promises is likely the best option. I hate to say it, but sometimes I feel like I'd be totally happy with my car if I didn't follow this forum, and our tendency here toward negativity.
> 
> But, that ship has sailed. It's too late, I'm an addict.


Hey, don't blame us, we're not the ones making promises 🤣


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## M3OC Rules

msjulie said:


> This is a tangent, but every time there is mention of the $25k Tesla it seems there is also mention of Elon saying no steering wheel, no pedals etc. That makes me really wonder about
> 
> does this mean that car is really years away as clearly it's meant to only self-drive?
> does it mean Tesla can built it for $15k because FSD is another $10k on top?
> should I just stop listening to promises?
> Sorry that sounds like a rant, not meant to be specifically but I just can't figure it all out.
> 
> I really like my 3, the super charger network is w/o a doubt superior to all others (in USA at least) but I'm not a fan-girl. A little more realism would be appreciated and make it much easier to convince regular folks of the cars' value.
> 
> My sister recently ordered a Y and she is not someone who cares to dig into all the hype, just wants a good safe car that is an EV that can do a 2x a year road trip w/o drama. I didn't really have to tell her to skip FSD because of cost but also the unknown in the promises. Hard code Tesla fans are much more likely to be tolerant of the current over-promise situation but I think that's far from mainstream. Misleading statements I think do more harm than good in the larger population.


Blame Steve Jobs for showing the power of reality distortion field and Robert Friedland for teaching it to him.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reality_distortion_field


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## lance.bailey

Bigriver said:


> Partially true. From October 2016 to October 2018, the FSD description on the Tesla website, in the Design Studio where options are selected for an order, did not mention that the driver remains responsible:
> View attachment 39900
> 
> https://web.archive.org/web/20181005150638/https:/www.tesla.com/modelx/design
> 
> It focuses on what FSD will ultimately be able to do. But it does note that these features are not yet available, and it is not known when they will be available. It says that both software validation and regulatory approval are between here and there.


not quite how I read it.

Yes, it does note that these features are not yet available cf "Please note that Self-Driving functionality is dependent upon extensive software validation and regulatory approval, which may vary widely by jurisdiction"

However the "when" is addressed in the next sentence: "It is not possible to know exactly when each element of the functionality described above will be available *as this is highly dependent on local regulatory approval" *my emphasis.

That second sentence places the when squarely on regulatory issues which is what I was told when I bought the car.


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## shareef777

M3OC Rules said:


> Blame Steve Jobs for showing the power of reality distortion field and Robert Friedland for teaching it to him.
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reality_distortion_field


Meh, I see that as just a new age buzz word for con-artist.


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## M3OC Rules

I don't believe the name is the issue. The FSD name is very clear. If the NTSB or the NHTSA wants to ban pre-selling software features they should do that. All manufacturers are going to over the air updates eventually so this is going to be an ongoing problem. If people want to sue because Tesla falsely advertised the timing of future features they should. 

The problem here is how well it works. People get lulled into a false sense of security and/or take risks. Everyone knows they could crash when they are texting on their phone but many, many people do it anyway. But the stats matter. It also saves accidents so you can't just focus on accidents that involve autopilot. If the safety discussion doesn't involve statistics then we might as well tell everyone to stop building self driving cars because being accident free is not possible.


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## iChris93

FRC said:


> I hate to say it, but sometimes I feel like I'd be totally happy with my car if I didn't follow this forum, and our tendency here toward negativity.
> 
> But, that ship has sailed. It's too late, I'm an addict.


Glad to have you here. Hope we are able to balance with positivity.


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## Bigriver

msjulie said:


> $25k Tesla it seems there is also mention of Elon saying no steering wheel, no pedals etc. That makes me really wonder about
> 
> does this mean that car is really years away as clearly it's meant to only self-drive?
> does it mean Tesla can built it for $15k because FSD is another $10k on top?


I've wondered the same thing. My guess is that the car will be $25k but require the FSD subscription. And I've thought that at some point they will stop selling FSD outright, and it will only be available as a subscription. Pure speculation on my part.


lance.bailey said:


> That second sentence places the when squarely on regulatory issues which is what I was told when I bought the car.


I don't disagree with you. Tesla's statement in the Oct 2016 to Oct 2018 time frame implies the main reason for delay is regulatory. But they did also mention software validation and they did not define a time line. Although I do know there are an abundance of Elon Tweets that did give reason to believe a faster implementation.

I'm not recalling exactly when you bought your car and when you purchased FSD. I'm curious if you had tried autopilot before you purchased FSD? Did the FSD specifications seem plausibly just around the corner to you? I guess they always seemed aspirational to me, which has shielded me from the deep regret many who are posting on these FSD threads seem to have.


FRC said:


> I hate to say it, but sometimes I feel like I'd be totally happy with my car if I didn't follow this forum, and our tendency here toward negativity.


Uhm, yeah. I think about the tone of this forum quite a bit lately. I'm not a Pollyanna and I'm all for a good venting or rant here and there, but the negativity expressed here, over and over, is sometimes too much. It wasn't always like this.


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## M3OC Rules

Here is one quote: “It has clearly misled numerous people to misuse and abuse technology.” I saw one case where the person was playing a video game. Clearly Autopilot makes it easier to play video games while driving. But so does cruise control. Is it better to have people swerving down the road which happens all the time because then you know who to avoid? Just because someone played a video game while driving with autopilot and died doesn't mean they wouldn't have played the video game without autopilot and have died. Falling asleep is another great example. If someone falls asleep while using autopilot its Tesla's fault. But if they fall asleep without using autopilot, it's the drivers fault. 

I just hope this is posturing and there are some actual adults behind the scenes not just making snap judgements based on anecdotal evidence.


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## shareef777

Bigriver said:


> the negativity expressed here, over and over, is sometimes too much. It wasn't always like this.


Well, a majority of the negativity is focused purely on FSD and the lack of customer service from Tesla, both of which are STILL unavailable. So not sure why you'd think a thread on FSD would be "upbeat".

Everything else posted in the forum (regarding the vehicles, both released and upcoming) has been nothing but up beat. Lots of excitement around the CyberTruck and a TON of cool stuff people doing with their Teslas.

Personally, I've been (and continue to be) critical of FSD, but will never speak ill of my vehicle. Simply put, love the car, not the company.

And I'll add that it wasn't always like this because people actually tried to give time for Tesla to get their stuff together in regards to FSD. It's pretty obvious that people's patience is running thin. And I'd wager people that put down $10k that recently joined and see that people have been waiting years aren't too keen on the idea that they TOO will likely be waiting years (just that they had to pay even more to join the waiting list)


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## lance.bailey

shareef777 said:


> ...Simply put, love the car, not the company....


this.


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## lance.bailey

Bigriver said:


> I'm not recalling exactly when you bought your car and when you purchased FSD. I'm curious if you had tried autopilot before you purchased FSD? Did the FSD specifications seem plausibly just around the corner to you? I guess they always seemed aspirational to me, which has shielded me from the deep regret many who are posting on these FSD threads seem to have.


We test drove Nov 8 or 9 2018 and we bought about a week later. We received Dec 4. The test drive had all the bells and whistles save for Performance (although it was red  ) I remember the test drive having the blue steering wheel for FSD/EAP/AP and the rep showing/discussing with us about the feature that if we let go of steering for too long the car would slow and pull over by itself.


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## Rapdka

iChris93 said:


> I agree with the NTSB. The Full Self Driving Tesla sells is misleading.


What Sell? I bought FSD with my car in 2019, I was never pushed by anyone to buy it, I knew it was being developed and updates would be released incrementally. Steps have to be taken to set up the use of FSD and acknowledge its use, so it not like a person gets in the car and there it is ready to go. I love FSD use it about 97% of time. I am sure it has saved me from a bad accident numerous times. Recently, I have been testing FSD-beta and realize it still has some work to be done more so on street, freeways not a problem; but I am glad I can help test it out and I am very careful and ready to immediately take over if necessary. I am an Adult and responsible for my actions. Why don't aren't guns taken away, after all there are hundreds if not thousands of killed every year.


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## Madmolecule

Just Fantasy Uncertainty and Doubt, it is definitely miss leading vaporware. I was misled by Tesla marketing, by Elon more times than I can count. Not only have they miss lead, for profit and scale, but they still have not defined the product or the liability when using the product. Steve Jobs was a designer and the driving force behind early Apple and the return of Apple. He had Wozniak as the brains and Johnny Ives for the design. Sometimes the BS actually comes true, and the case of FSD it is just BS. It will at best it will be advance cruise control for the next 5 to 10 years in the United States. When will tesla admit this, I’m going with after Elon’s departure. Here I think we just have Elon, The Richest guy in the world, the smartest guy in the room, and has been with the most beautiful women in the world. Very accomplished, but I’m putting his chance of FSD at zero


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## DocScott

Rapdka said:


> What Sell? I bought FSD with my car in 2019, I was never pushed by anyone to buy it, I knew it was being developed and updates would be released incrementally. Steps have to be taken to set up the use of FSD and acknowledge its use, so it not like a person gets in the car and there it is ready to go. I love FSD use it about 97% of time. I am sure it has saved me from a bad accident numerous times. Recently, I have been testing FSD-beta and realize it still has some work to be done more so on street, freeways not a problem; but I am glad I can help test it out and I am very careful and ready to immediately take over if necessary. I am an Adult and responsible for my actions. Why don't aren't guns taken away, after all there are hundreds if not thousands of killed every year.


It saved you from a bad accident numerous times since 2019?

So before FSD, you were involved in a bad accident every year or so? Your insurance rates must be sky-high.


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## Rapdka

DocScott said:


> It saved you from a bad accident numerous times since 2019?
> 
> So before FSD, you were involved in a bad accident every year or so? Your insurance rates must be sky-high.


FSD has saved me many a time since I started using it from crazy drivers by avoiding their erratic driving. I have only had one bad accident in all my years of driving and that was because a person ran a red light at high speed while was driving across the middle of the intersection. My insurance rates are actually pretty low due to my safe driver discount. Tesla's FSD adds a higher level of protection in my view, and as I said I use it every opportunity I can. I see Testa FSD beta, just improving with every update. I suggests to those people that bought their Tesla and don't like the car or FSD to sell it, you can get your money back as there are a ton of people wanting to buy a Tesla with or without FSD. If you haven't noticed, Model Y and 3 are sold out till 2023, now is you chance. Tesla does not market or advertise, and the agreement on enabling FSD is very clear and complete. The rest us love our cars and FSD!!!!


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## bwilson4web

I would also add those who spend time justifying their recent non-Tesla EVs:


Rapdka said:


> . . . I suggests to those people that bought their Tesla and don't like the car or FSD to sell it, you can get your money back as there are a ton of people wanting to buy a Tesla with or without FSD. If you haven't noticed, Model Y and 3 are sold out till 2023, now is you chance. Tesla does not market or advertise, and the agreement on enabling FSD is very clear and complete. The rest us love our cars and FSD!!!!


No, I don't recommend censure as much as a summary and then wander off to forums where your make and model are discussed in detail, You'll find both the beauty and beast of your new ride that Tesla owners are unable to provide value. Self-moderation is a virtue.

Bob Wilson


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## iChris93

Rapdka said:


> the agreement on enabling FSD is very clear and complete


After you’ve already purchased or subscribed.


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## Rapdka

When was the last time anyone read their owners manual? Have you viewed all the video tutorials provided?


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## Rapdka

M3OC Rules said:


> Here is one quote: “It has clearly misled numerous people to misuse and abuse technology.” I saw one case where the person was playing a video game. Clearly Autopilot makes it easier to play video games while driving. But so does cruise control. Is it better to have people swerving down the road which happens all the time because then you know who to avoid? Just because someone played a video game while driving with autopilot and died doesn't mean they wouldn't have played the video game without autopilot and have died. Falling asleep is another great example. If someone falls asleep while using autopilot its Tesla's fault. But if they fall asleep without using autopilot, it's the drivers fault.
> 
> I just hope this is posturing and there are some actual adults behind the scenes not just making snap judgements based on anecdotal evidence.


I was just thinking, maybe the NTSB should consider confiscating everyone's cell phone, every time I am driving a see people driving while on their cell phone. In addition, think of all the accidents caused by people applying makeup or shaving on the way to work in the morning. Crazy!


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## Klaus-rf

Rapdka said:


> I was just thinking, maybe the NTSB should consider confiscating everyone's cell phone, every time I am driving a see people driving while on their cell phone. In addition, think of all the accidents caused by people applying makeup or shaving on the way to work in the morning. Crazy!


Most states have adopted cell phone limitations and ID'd other similar usage as "distracted driving". So it's lareday illegal in most locales. No need for the feds to get involved.

Now if Elon came out with a 'Hold this thing and in one hand make calls voice-hardware command option', then maybe. Of course he'd probably start with a monthly fee program.


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## Madmolecule

It might be just me, but if Tesla really believed in this product you would think they would spend some money on a marketing campaign to the NTSB, not just using shills to criticize the NTSB. I’m not an expert on politics but I don’t think that’s the best way to affect policy. Tesla should’ve started buying politicians years ago. 

The product works fine, FSD is just a fantasy, was way oversold, and could even be called a Kickstarter scam. Until they define the product, define the liability, define when you can legally use it, it is nothing but fantasy. I have no intention to sell my car but I also will drive it myself, like I own it. Once they convert it to driver assistance, and not full self driving and add some decent infotainment and a non-proprietary DC charge connector it will be an amazing car.

there is zero data that your car driving in full self driving is safer than you driving it. You have had to accept full responsibility and pay attention 100% of the time. It has not avoided accidents you have avoided the accidents. There is 0 miles driven Under full self driving


anyone that makes excuses for Tesla is just making excuses for Tesla. I was sold full self driving, there is zero chance of them providing that for me. I was sold a product that was almost finished, just needed some testing and then it would be released. That was four years ago. It is time for the lie to stop. Should we all sell stock like Elon, to make FSD work better. Do the smart people invest in Twitter bots now


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## bwilson4web

Madmolecule said:


> The product. . .



_"Until they define the product, define the liability, define when you can legally use it" - _this is where the 'standards' groups have failed to define the features and specifications. We don't need vague 'levels' but performance specifications. For example, lane keeping should have a seconds until departure and lane identification.
_"I also will drive it myself, like I own it" _- as expected.
_"non-proprietary DC charge connector"_ - I prefer the smaller, lighter, mixed AC and DC charging plug. The J1772 standard has evolved but needs to copy the Tesla plug capability for the same five pins. The J1772 standard has always had a DC charging specification, initially 80 A, although terribly current limited.
_"zero data that your car driving in full self driving is safer than you driving it"_ - choosing ignorance instead of (Tesla Vehicle Safety Report) suggests something else. The IIHS does crash testing: 2022 Tesla Model 3 4-door sedan. The real failure are NHTSA and IIHS failing to use accident metrics by make, model, and year. The FARS database would be a good start but access is limited.
_"you have had to accept full responsibility"_- a good practice for anything you own and operate.
_"sold full self driving, there is zero chance"_ - Tesla reported a change in architecture from frame-by-frame to a form of vector objects driven by pattern recognition. Frame-by-frame is always going to be less effective than classification of objects and a vector model of their behavior. For example, a traffic cone is not likely to jump in front of the car and even if it did, an impact is more tolerable than a pedestrian, bicyclist, or vehicle.
_"time for the lie to stop"_ - the lie would have been to stick with frame-by-frame or the 'mapped' routes. They are inflexible and too slow.
_"sell stock like Elon"_ - I'm not trying to buy Twitter like Elon has been.
Bob Wilson


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## Madmolecule

bwilson4web said:


> _"non-proprietary DC charge connector"_ - I prefer the smaller, lighter, mixed AC and DC charging plug. The J1772 standard has evolved but needs to copy the Tesla plug capability for the same five pins. The J1772 standard has always had a DC charging specification, initially 80 A, although terribly current limited.
> _"zero data that your car driving in full self driving is safer than you driving it"_ - choosing ignorance instead of (Tesla Vehicle Safety Report) suggests something else. The IIHS does crash testing: 2022 Tesla Model 3 4-door sedan. The real failure are NHTSA and IIHS failing to use accident metrics by make, model, and year. The FARS database would be a good start but access is limited
> .


No need to argue the capability of Teslas plug, the world has moved on and has chosen another standard. This has left Tesla owners with a proprietary DC connectors, Sorry you might like that but I do not.

Tesla insurance is not cheaper if you have a FSD, with Tesla insurance or any other brand. I guess they cannot assess the risk. risk assessors must be idiots like me. The crash testing is mainly due to the removal of the engine in front of the driver, and creating a huge crumple zone. Tesla has remove this design feature with a cybertruck making out of SpaceX stainless steel, unless that is a lie also. I wish I was smart as you and could find data showing were Teslas have been driven Under FSD’s without 100% driver responsibility and control, so I can get as educated as the smart people

Tesla has yet to even come close, in my mind, of proving that removing the radar was for safety and enhanced functionality and not to enhance profits. I actually paid for a Radar on my car and then they disabled it for my benefit, cool

if you enjoy taking full responsibility for the driving of a vehicle after paying for a product sold as full self driving then you should be very happy with your purchase. As a senior citizen, I bought the story that my vehicle would be providing full self driving as soon as they finish the battle of the 9s. I’m just asking when will they say the 9s have won.

Finally, is Elon trying to buy Twitter, or not trying to buy Twitter? It’s hard to keep up with the brain cycles. Don’t worry I’m not planning on selling stock, because I’m waiting on the planned FSD’s release, any day now. This way I will know when I’m configuring my cyber truck for the planned early 2023 release, I will know whether to purchase it. At least that’s what I’m planning
The current offering for FSD appears to be misleading, In my opinion, but what was sold to me was definitely a Kickstarter infomercial, with many videos and tweets to suck me in, And make me believe they had already bent The space-time continuum, they just need to demo it to regulators and finish the software. The only thing that was bent was the truth


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## Klaus-rf

bwilson4web said:


> _"zero data that your car driving in full self driving is safer than you driving it"_ - choosing ignorance instead of (Tesla Vehicle Safety Report) suggests something else. The IIHS does crash testing: 2022 Tesla Model 3 4-door sedan. The real failure are NHTSA and IIHS failing to use accident metrics by make, model, and year. The FARS database would be a good start but access is limited.


 You're mixing the apples with chunks of bicycle and tree bark here.

There is EXACTLY ZERO DATA that FSD - all by itself - is safer than a human, any human, all by itself. Since there is ONLY 'FSD + Human' data so far. Doesn't matter what Tesla's Safety report rfeads - ALL collected data so far is FSD WITH human. There is no data of just FSD - WIHTOUT a human operator.

Crash data is without driver and without FSD.


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## DocScott

bwilson4web said:


> _"sold full self driving, there is zero chance"_ - Tesla reported a change in architecture from frame-by-frame to a form of vector objects driven by pattern recognition. Frame-by-frame is always going to be less effective than classification of objects and a vector model of their behavior. For example, a traffic cone is not likely to jump in front of the car and even if it did, an impact is more tolerable than a pedestrian, bicyclist, or vehicle.


Ironically, this was the development that caused me to lose all faith that Tesla had any idea what it was doing with autonomous driving.

It should have been completely obvious that they should be using something like vector objects from the start. I think most of us assumed they were! I remember watching one of the Tesla events where they were very proud of themselves that when a car drove over a left-turn arrow painted on the street, the Tesla remembered that the left-turn arrow was there. And they were treating this like a revolutionary advance!

This seems like a "smartest guy in the room" type issue. Musk gets it in his head that autonomous driving can be done in some particular way and that all other approaches are sh*t, and that gives the marching orders to his team. His team is very good! But I don't think they ever really thought our what the overall strategies should be; they just went with Musk's vision.

And now they're behind. I expect some other company will get to L4 first.


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## Rapdka

Madmolecule said:


> No need to argue the capability of Teslas plug, the world has moved on and has chosen another standard. This has left Tesla owners with a proprietary DC connectors, Sorry you might like that but I do not.
> 
> Tesla insurance is not cheaper if you have a FSD, with Tesla insurance or any other brand. I guess they cannot assess the risk. risk assessors must be idiots like me. The crash testing is mainly due to the removal of the engine in front of the driver, and creating a huge crumple zone. Tesla has remove this design feature with a cybertruck making out of SpaceX stainless steel, unless that is a lie also. I wish I was smart as you and could find data showing were Teslas have been driven Under FSD’s without 100% driver responsibility and control, so I can get as educated as the smart people
> 
> Tesla has yet to even come close, in my mind, of proving that removing the radar was for safety and enhanced functionality and not to enhance profits. I actually paid for a Radar on my car and then they disabled it for my benefit, cool
> 
> if you enjoy taking full responsibility for the driving of a vehicle after paying for a product sold as full self driving then you should be very happy with your purchase. As a senior citizen, I bought the story that my vehicle would be providing full self driving as soon as they finish the battle of the 9s. I’m just asking when will they say the 9s have won.
> 
> Finally, is Elon trying to buy Twitter, or not trying to buy Twitter? It’s hard to keep up with the brain cycles. Don’t worry I’m not planning on selling stock, because I’m waiting on the planned FSD’s release, any day now. This way I will know when I’m configuring my cyber truck for the planned early 2023 release, I will know whether to purchase it. At least that’s what I’m planning
> The current offering for FSD appears to be misleading, In my opinion, but what was sold to me was definitely a Kickstarter infomercial, with many videos and tweets to suck me in, And make me believe they had already bent The space-time continuum, they just need to demo it to regulators and finish the software. The only thing that was bent was the truth


A German court just ruled in favor of Tesla regarding AP and FSD, maybe the same will happen in the U.S.









Tesla wins Autopilot FSD “misleading” marketing lawsuit in Germany: report


A Munich court ruled in 2020 that Tesla was using misleading marketing strategies in Germany due to its use of the words Autopilot and FSD.




www.teslarati.com


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## Madmolecule

Rapdka said:


> A German court just ruled in favor of Tesla regarding AP and FSD, maybe the same will happen in the U.S.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tesla wins Autopilot FSD “misleading” marketing lawsuit in Germany: report
> 
> 
> A Munich court ruled in 2020 that Tesla was using misleading marketing strategies in Germany due to its use of the words Autopilot and FSD.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.teslarati.com


Not much of a victory. Full self driving was not misleading only because it does not exist. They did have to refrain from saying later this year, and call them future features. I don’t really care what the courts do, I would just like them to provide the product they promised, or say that they’re not gonna provide it, or that they are not capable of providing it.

Not sure what Tesla’s defense is. Are they saying that auto pilot and full self driving is the same as cruise control, with annoying lane change, phantom braking and constant screen nags. I also get traffic light indication, car animations, and traffic cone cartoons on my display. Is that they auto pilot and full self driving that was promised. When I look at my car display camera to see if there is a car in my Blindspot, and it warns me to pay attention.

How can selling a car with full self driving when it only has false self driving, be not misleading


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## M3OC Rules

DocScott said:


> And now they're behind. I expect some other company will get to L4 first.


Its easy to say they are behind but it depends on what the goal is. Cruise and Waymo are already at L4 but they don't have a working business model and they haven't shown they can scale. Tesla's approach is harder but instantly achieves scale. There are no clear winners or losers at this point unless you consider them all losers.  Maybe Cruise and Waymo will collapse before they achieve profitability while Mobileye and Tesla can maintain investment for years and years until they get there.


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## DocScott

M3OC Rules said:


> Its easy to say they are behind but it depends on what the goal is. Cruise and Waymo are already at L4 but they don't have a working business model and they haven't shown they can scale. Tesla's approach is harder but instantly achieves scale. There are no clear winners or losers at this point unless you consider them all losers.  Maybe Cruise and Waymo will collapse before they achieve profitability while Mobileye and Tesla can maintain investment for years and years until they get there.


Fair enough. L4 already exists in some practical applications, like shuttles on closed campuses.

So I'll rephrase: I expect some other company will have L4 as an option on a car sold to consumers before Tesla does.


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## Klaus-rf

DocScott said:


> So I'll rephrase: I expect some other company will have L4 as an option on a car sold to consumers before Tesla does.


 But hasn't Tesla already sold it to customers? Even though it doesn't work at L3, L4, L5...


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## styleruk

*My 10 pence worth:*
Being in the UK, I too read the blurb back in 2016 and thought that's good, I'll have that. (with Caveat, I never believed I was buying a car that would drive me to work)
Fast forward to 2019 (first UK delivery of m3); Great car, does not do what they said but hey, seemed impossible anyway, happy with features and updates
Fast forward to 2022; 3 years anniversary last week, these are my opinions.
*1) Anything Elon says*, I don't believe. I know the guy is a genius, but anything he tweets or quotes is fluff.
*2) They have removed so many features for my car in the UK*
_a) Used to drive down the local roads, then they added a max turning angle, so now it cannot navigate local roads
b) Used to change lane on it's own, then they added, have to press the indicator stalk to make it do it and if it does not complete in a few seconds it swerves back in. Bit like Russian roulette...no thank you.
c) Used to turn off slip roads, then they added, you have to press indicator to make it do it
d) Used to Summon, then they changed it to only work if you are standing right next to your car....what is the point of that then? 'hey summon to me right next to you...oh you have'. (FFS)
e) Used to drive down my local roads manually and calmly, now it beeps loudly at me if I cross a white line to avoid a potential head on. This is irritating, as every time I get in the car I have to turn that off otherwise I get about 6 loud beeps either way on my commute. I have to straddle the line when going round corners as the roads are narrow and you will hit someone if you didn't. So glad they improved that feature...NOT!
f) Used to be able to queue in slow (walking pace-stop) traffic. Now it kangaroos down the road (see thread 'kangaroo mode'), this may be my car, but it's been with me for over 6months now with no solution, I can only assume it's permanent, so now I can't use self drive or cruise when moving in slow moving traffic (about 30% of my commute) This is by far the most annoying as the main reason for buying this car was to take away the mundane. It's lovely when I borrow my wife's Toyota as it does this perfectly as my Tesla used to.
...and many more little irritants they have added._
*3)* and now they are adding the FSD features to normal cruise options. Not that I care, I paid a lot less for my FSD back in 19' so I'm not bothered too much.
It's no wonder most in the UK do not buy the FSD option, there is absolutely no reason for it over here. I drive with the FSD off 100% of time, every now and then I turn it on after a major update to see what's happened and then nope, it's still as useful as an ashtray on my motorbike. I had a benchmark route that the car used to drive on it's own when I first got the car, no junctions, no roundabouts, no parked cars etc. It did a fair job when I first got the car in 19'. It slowed on a couple of sharper corners more than I would have but got it done and I thought, 'this is a good start, improvements will come'. Today, if I tried that route...LOL, no bloody chance, it can't make the first corner without nearly killing me, amazing that such a potentially great feature has failed.

I'm not pissed at the car itself, I like driving it (kangaroo mode excluded), and I'm keeping it long term (providing kangaroo mode is fixed). If they do fix the kangaroo mode then I will be turning off updates and holding out for as long as I can that's for sure. I've always thought, If I got a job closer to home, I'd sell the Tesla, as that's all I wanted it for. Part of me thinks, maybe sell now whilst the second hand market is still quite high and look elsewhere, because the one thing I really liked about it (sub 20mph self drive), has gone for me. If I use it, then I'm banging my head against the headrest as the car accelerates too hard then brakes too hard which builds up to what looks like a complete mental person driving the car. Then people start beep their horns at me and calling me...well 'mental'.  
Sorry, I prattled on a bit there.


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## Madmolecule

styleruk said:


> Being in the UK, I too read the blurb back in 2016 and thought that's good, I'll have that. (with Caveat, I never believed I was buying a car that would drive me to work)
> Fast forward to 2019 (first UK delivery of m3); Great car, does not do what they said but hey, seemed impossible anyway, happy with features and updates
> Fast forward to 2022; 3 years anniversary last week, these are my opinions.
> *1) Anything Elon says*, I don't believe. I know the guy is a genius, but anything he tweets or quotes is fluff.


I sadly believed him much longer than I should have. I’ve stopped buying into the fantasies along time ago. A PowerPoint bot in a costume, where they already knew the exact weight and performance specs was hilarious.


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## Rapdka

evdude88 said:


> Breaking news from like 20 mins ago. It seems the NTSB is investigating Tesla's FSD:
> 
> https://www.wsj.com/articles/elon-m...safety-authority-11632043803?mod=hp_lead_pos3https://wegoelectric.net/ntsb-calls-teslas-full-self-driving-misleading-and-irresponsible/
> We will probably see it all over the news later today


This is not new, the post is a year old! What gives???


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## iChris93

Rapdka said:


> This is not new, the post is a year old! What gives???


The most recent post was September 20th, 2021, nearly a year ago, until you resurrected it on August 13th, 2022. You brought it back to life. 



Rapdka said:


> What Sell? I bought FSD with my car in 2019, I was never pushed by anyone to buy it, I knew it was being developed and updates would be released incrementally. Steps have to be taken to set up the use of FSD and acknowledge its use, so it not like a person gets in the car and there it is ready to go. I love FSD use it about 97% of time. I am sure it has saved me from a bad accident numerous times. Recently, I have been testing FSD-beta and realize it still has some work to be done more so on street, freeways not a problem; but I am glad I can help test it out and I am very careful and ready to immediately take over if necessary. I am an Adult and responsible for my actions. Why don't aren't guns taken away, after all there are hundreds if not thousands of killed every year.


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## styleruk

UK announce self driving cars from next year with full roll out 2025. Let's see what manufacturer can actually do it. I'm betting mercedes or BMW as they have a lot of political clout in Europe. Tesla certainly cannot do it with the warning that you are in control of the car. The rules will be that the manufacturer is responsible and that is the only way to push this tech out, that means the OEM will have to be 100% sure that their system works in all situations, something that my model 3 will never be able to do with the tech it has.
Interesting to see this happening though.


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