# Should I ‘bug report’ phantom brake?



## Nom (Oct 30, 2018)

On a pleasant drive with daughter yesterday when both were jolted out of our bliss with a hard phantom break. Clearly caused by an overpass / shadow (I believe), with a car right behind us (they wisely decided to stop traveling behind us after that).

I annoyingly hesitated and then failed to file a bug report. Should I have done so? Or does Tesla Auto flag sudden auto brakes overridden by accelerator pushes?


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## jdcollins5 (Oct 31, 2018)

Known issue for a long time now. The more you use it the more you learn where the fringe cases are. Keep your foot on or above the accelerator and tap to cancel unwanted braking.


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## SalisburySam (Jun 6, 2018)

For me, this has happened almost since I got the Model 3 in July 2018, but it has gotten worse under v12.11.1. In answer to OPs question, I recommend yes, do submit a bug report. I submit bug reports for every occurrence, though since the behavior has gotten worse, I’m fairly certain they either don’t get these, don’t care about them, or don’t want to hear from me anymore. I am really good at bug reports though; very quick, very succinct, and can do so now without expletives.


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## SoFlaModel3 (Apr 15, 2017)

Yeah it's definitely worth a bug report in my opinion and of course you want to mark as close to the issue happening as possible -- tough when your heart just stopped beating for a few seconds.


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## FRC (Aug 4, 2018)

SoFlaModel3 said:


> Yeah it's definitely worth a bug report in my opinion and of course you want to mark as close to the issue happening as possible -- tough when your heart just stopped beating for a few seconds.


My mobile tech used to track bug reports. He told me that the report doesn't have to be made immediately. But, to be most effective, report the exact time that the issue occurred. So, immediately after the issue, note the time. Then, when you've had time to calm down, and to compose a BRIEF message, then file your bug report. E.G., "Phantom braking event at 10:54".


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## SalisburySam (Jun 6, 2018)

FRC said:


> ...compose a BRIEF message, then file your bug report. E.G., "Phantom braking event at 10:54".


Don't forget to say "Bug Report" first.


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## Garlan Garner (May 24, 2016)

Nom said:


> On a pleasant drive with daughter yesterday when both were jolted out of our bliss with a hard phantom break. Clearly caused by an overpass / shadow (I believe), with a car right behind us (they wisely decided to stop traveling behind us after that).
> 
> I annoyingly hesitated and then failed to file a bug report. Should I have done so? Or does Tesla Auto flag sudden auto brakes overridden by accelerator pushes?


Yes. Bug report it.

The more reports.....the better it becomes.


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## orekart (Nov 15, 2018)

"Bug report" doesn't do anything by itself. You have to get a service tech to correlate the bug report entry with your own notes about time/date what happened. There's no easy way to search bug report entries unless you know where and when to look for.

Ex-Tesla service technicians: Please correct me if I misunderstand the situation.


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## bwilson4web (Mar 4, 2019)

If it accelerates going with Tesla mapping and getting away from Google Map, by all means, do a "Bug Report." Google Map update interface continues to elude me. When I could get into it about a year and a half ago, I submitted my corrections and nothing happened. Tesla please walk, no run away from that buggy mess.

Bob Wilson


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## Bigriver (Jan 26, 2018)

@Nom and @SalisburySam, I am curious about you continuing to have phantom braking episodes. Phantom braking is something that immensely disturbed me, but which I haven't experienced for a long time. Wondering if that is because I'm not driving much now. Or did HW3 stop it for me? Do you have HW2.5? Wondering if others are still having phantom braking instances?



orekart said:


> "Bug report" doesn't do anything by itself. You have to get a service tech to correlate the bug report entry with your own notes about time/date what happened. There's no easy way to search bug report entries unless you know where and when to look for.
> 
> Ex-Tesla service technicians: Please correct me if I misunderstand the situation.


I've been told by Service Center guys that they have no easy way to sort through bug reports, and I need to give an exact time stamp for them to look through the log for a specific issue. But they are also able to search through the car's log at a specific time even without a bug report.

The owner's manual says:










So maybe the development engineers look at bug reports sometimes. They certainly would have to have tools that the SC guys don't have, because too much data with no way to sort/query it would make the data useless. Not my area of expertise or experience, but I am pretty skeptical that bug reports play any key role. Nevertheless, I would probably do a bug report if I experienced a phantom braking incident at this time. I had stopped doing so when they seemed the norm at every overpass.


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## Nom (Oct 30, 2018)

Thanks all. I'll aim to report in future in the chance it could help. I haven't had a major phantom break for a while but am also driving less. @Bigriver I'm on 2.5.


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## Long Ranger (Jun 1, 2018)

Bigriver said:


> Phantom braking is something that immensely disturbed me, but which I haven't experienced for a long time. Wondering if that is because I'm not driving much now. Or did HW3 stop it for me? Do you have HW2.5? Wondering if others are still having phantom braking instances?


I'm not driving a lot these days, but I've definitely seen an increase in phantom braking lately. It was never really an issue for me, but it seems pretty common now. Some (perhaps all?) of it is due to having stop light detection enabled, but the braking often happens on the freeway approaching overpasses. I've seen that freeway braking more in the last -500 miles than I saw in the first 22k miles combined. I have HW3.


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## SalisburySam (Jun 6, 2018)

Bigriver said:


> @Nom and @SalisburySam, I am curious about you continuing to have phantom braking episodes. Phantom braking is something that immensely disturbed me, but which I haven't experienced for a long time. Wondering if that is because I'm not driving much now. Or did HW3 stop it for me? Do you have HW2.5? Wondering if others are still having phantom braking instances.


Phantom braking is indeed "immensely disturbing" in your words, especially to passengers. It becomes a major annoyance as you ask if each upcoming overpass might trigger it (to be fair, overpass recognition is much much better than previously), or if crossing another street with a lower speed limit will trigger it, or something else. For passengers, it is terrifying. For the driver, it makes you focus on things which should be unimportant and not a consideration to safe driving. You're second guessing when you'll need to apply quick and significant accelerator input. Far, far less stressful to skip on using TACC. Which is why I wish there were an option to use dumb cruise control and let me worry about vehicular spacing. For me, TACC has killed the benefits of EAP/FSD and negated the investment.

LR RWD EAP/FSD, upgraded to HW3.0.


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## jybrick (Dec 3, 2019)

If they really want the reports, they should send an email to the owner of record when a "Bug report" is done in the car. It should contain the time and text of your spoken words to remind you of the situation and then you could reply with more info.


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## SalisburySam (Jun 6, 2018)

v28.6, and another phantom braking event. 2-lane road, TACC on (my mistake there), 45mph speed limit going 45mph, zero traffic, no overpasses, farm fields both sides. Straight road and boom, hard braking down to 30mph before I caught it. No human-perceptible reason for the event. Wife‘s comments were, oh say, unpleasant, but I couldn’t distinctly hear her over my shouted expletives. Hate this thing. Bug report with time noted. 94-lb German Shepherd in the back looks at me in the rear view mirror with a stare that clearly asked “WTF Dad?”


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## bwilson4web (Mar 4, 2019)

Find a reproducible phantom braking location.
Document with video.
Open case with Tesla support.
Let other Tesla owners know so we can confirm.

Bob Wilson


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## serpico007 (Mar 1, 2020)

As a new owner I didn't know what this was until I read this post. I have a service appointment for this and was worried but maybe I don't need the appointment now. I had this happen driving under an overpass most of the time driving home from work. It scared my wife and I the first time it happened. The car just slammed on the front brakes and shook near my side. Always when FSD is engaged this happens. Guess it happens to many of us.


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## bwilson4web (Mar 4, 2019)

serpico007 said:


> As a new owner I didn't know what this was until I read this post. I have a service appointment for this and was worried but maybe I don't need the appointment now. I had this happen driving under an overpass most of the time driving home from work. It scared my wife and I the first time it happened. The car just slammed on the front brakes and shook near my side. Always when FSD is engaged this happens. Guess it happens to many of us.


Just document the reproducible problem in an open Tesla trouble ticket. Share the longitude and latitude with us and ask others to replicate the problem.

Bob Wilson


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## serpico007 (Mar 1, 2020)

How and where do you submit these tickets?


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## bwilson4web (Mar 4, 2019)

serpico007 said:


> How and where do you submit these tickets?


I use my Tesla account:
https://www.tesla.com/support

At the bottom is a "CONTACT" button that leads eventually a form to submit window. This page needs work but eventually you get a ticket and transition to e-mail for follow-up communication.

Bob Wilson


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## DaveW (Jun 30, 2020)

Just finished watching the latest youtube video from SOL (super cars of London). He was feeling pretty good about the M3P until he had a rather unsettling phantom breaking experience (just this past week I believe). Scarred his wife and could have been very serious had there been someone behind him. He was starting to enjoy the car, and even considering it as a replacement for his BMW M2 competition, but after this experience he says that he could never recommend Tesla to his viewers. We are on the fence about getting a MY or M3 but if my wife hears of this I know she will never be abe to trust or feel comfortable in a Tesla.


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## FRC (Aug 4, 2018)

DaveW said:


> Just finished watching the latest youtube video from SOL (super cars of London). He was feeling pretty good about the M3P until he had a rather unsettling phantom breaking experience (just this past week I believe). Scarred his wife and could have been very serious had there been someone behind him. He was starting to enjoy the car, and even considering it as a replacement for his BMW M2 competition, but after this experience he says that he could never recommend Tesla to his viewers. We are on the fence about getting a MY or M3 but if my wife hears of this I know she will never be abe to trust or feel comfortable in a Tesla.


A) Phantom braking is only an issue when using Autopilot. Autopilot is an optional function, and is still improving over time.
B) Each time I have a phantom braking incident(fairly rare, but I did have one today), I'm in the habit of looking at the speedometer. I don't recall ever having a phantom braking incident that slowed the car more than 3 mph. But, because the deceleration is so abrupt and unexpected, it FEELS like a much greater deceleration.
C) I always hear people say that IF a car had been following there would have been an accident. I don't recall any reports of such an accident. I take this to be universal evidence of the truth of point B.
D) If you let reports like this frighten you away from owning a Tesla, you're missing out on a fantastic experience.
E) I sincerely hope that your wife was scared, not scarred!


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## GDN (Oct 30, 2017)

DaveW said:


> Just finished watching the latest youtube video from SOL (super cars of London). He was feeling pretty good about the M3P until he had a rather unsettling phantom breaking experience (just this past week I believe). Scarred his wife and could have been very serious had there been someone behind him. He was starting to enjoy the car, and even considering it as a replacement for his BMW M2 competition, but after this experience he says that he could never recommend Tesla to his viewers. We are on the fence about getting a MY or M3 but if my wife hears of this I know she will never be abe to trust or feel comfortable in a Tesla.


I'm not going to sit here and make excuses for them because I had 2 phantom braking events of my own this weekend. First time I've been on the open road to use FSD in 6 months. They get your attention for sure.

A couple of items to note - a car braking event will only slow the car 30 MPH regardless of the situation, it will not bring the car to a stop if you are driving over 35 mph. Page 131 in the current manual:
"If driving 35 mph (56 km/h) or faster, the brakes are released after Automatic Emergency Braking has reduced your driving speed by 30 mph (50 km/h). For example, if Automatic Emergency Braking applies braking when driving 56 mph (90 km/h), it releases the brakes when your speed has been reduced to 26 mph (40 km/h). Automatic Emergency Braking operates only when driving between approximately 7 mph (10 km/h) and 90 mph (150 km/h). Automatic Emergency Braking does not apply the brakes, or stops applying the brakes, when: • You turn the steering wheel sharply. • You press and release the brake pedal while Automatic Emergency Braking is applying the brakes. • You accelerate hard while Automatic Emergency Braking is applying the brakes. • The vehicle, motorcycle, bicycle, or pedestrian is no longer detected ahead "

While this has been happening for the life of the 3 it doesn't make it any less discerning. However the features you are using are listed as Beta, and you are to be aware to take over at any time. This also doesn't happen, but if the other drivers are giving you distance and are being aware they should also be able to react. None of that makes it better, but it is a use at your own risk option.

The other side of this is that I hope with the major rewrite coming in a couple of months this should be rectified. They've made it better at times, then it digresses. Only time will tell.


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## garsh (Apr 4, 2016)

FRC said:


> A) Phantom braking is only an issue when using Autopilot. Autopilot is an optional function, and is still improving over time.


It also happens when using TACC, right?


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## SalisburySam (Jun 6, 2018)

garsh said:


> It also happens when using TACC, right?


Correct. Which is why some of us wish for a dumb cruise control option. By the way, how do you use Autopilot and NOT use TACC? Doesn't TACC have to be enabled first or with the double shift level tap? In the many, many phantom braking events I've had, TACC was enabled. Other things may or may not have been enabled, but TACC is the common cause for me...I think.


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## FRC (Aug 4, 2018)

garsh said:


> It also happens when using TACC, right?


I said Autopilot, but I've always had TACC, so I'm unsure of how autopilot would behave. The same, I would expect??


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## Long Ranger (Jun 1, 2018)

DaveW said:


> Just finished watching the latest youtube video from SOL (super cars of London). He was feeling pretty good about the M3P until he had a rather unsettling phantom breaking experience (just this past week I believe). Scarred his wife and could have been very serious had there been someone behind him. He was starting to enjoy the car, and even considering it as a replacement for his BMW M2 competition, but after this experience he says that he could never recommend Tesla to his viewers. We are on the fence about getting a MY or M3 but if my wife hears of this I know she will never be abe to trust or feel comfortable in a Tesla.


It would be a shame if you let this scare you away from owning a Tesla. It's one of the safest cars you can own, with some of the best crash test ratings and tons of standard safety features. My wife and I both love our Model 3. Best car I've ever owned, and maybe the best purchase I've ever made. And it keeps getting better with updates, unlike any other car out there today.

Yes, phantom braking can occur when using TACC (but rarely for me), but the guy in the video makes it out to be far scarier than it is. I've never found it scary, just a bit annoying when it happens. He makes it sound like the car is uncontrollably slamming on the brakes. If it starts to brake, you just press the accelerator to maintain your speed. He admits he wasn't prepared to do that.

The guy in the video obviously didn't really understand much about how TACC and Autopilot work in a Tesla. He said he didn't trust Autopilot, but he went ahead and used TACC because he trusted that.

In most cars (like BMW), adaptive cruise control doesn't even attempt to stop for stationary objects, it only tracks the car you're following. If that car moves out of the way and there are stopped cars ahead you'll plow into those cars unless you brake. Tesla tries to detect stationary objects and brake for them. It's actually a very complicated problem to solve, and while they get it right almost all the time, it's not perfect yet. You simply need to pay attention and not blindly trust TACC and Autopilot.

The guy in the video wasn't prepared to touch the accelerator to maintain speed during phantom braking, probably because he was used to BMW ACC. That's like if I drove his BMW, enabled ACC, and then wasn't prepared to brake upon encountering a stationary vehicle (even though the BMW manual says ACC makes no attempt to avoid stationary objects).


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## garsh (Apr 4, 2016)

FYI, I rented some car (a little Mazda SUV, IIRC) that had adaptive cruise control. I actually had a worse "phantom braking" episode with that car than anything that's recently happened in my Tesla.


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## DocScott (Mar 6, 2019)

GDN said:


> I'm not going to sit here and make excuses for them because I had 2 phantom braking events of my own this weekend. First time I've been on the open road to use FSD in 6 months. They get your attention for sure.
> 
> A couple of items to note - a car braking event will only slow the car 30 MPH regardless of the situation, it will not bring the car to a stop if you are driving over 35 mph. Page 131 in the current manual:
> "If driving 35 mph (56 km/h) or faster, the brakes are released after Automatic Emergency Braking has reduced your driving speed by 30 mph (50 km/h). For example, if Automatic Emergency Braking applies braking when driving 56 mph (90 km/h), it releases the brakes when your speed has been reduced to 26 mph (40 km/h). Automatic Emergency Braking operates only when driving between approximately 7 mph (10 km/h) and 90 mph (150 km/h). Automatic Emergency Braking does not apply the brakes, or stops applying the brakes, when: • You turn the steering wheel sharply. • You press and release the brake pedal while Automatic Emergency Braking is applying the brakes. • You accelerate hard while Automatic Emergency Braking is applying the brakes. • The vehicle, motorcycle, bicycle, or pedestrian is no longer detected ahead "
> ...


The 30 mph limit only applies to AEB, right? I haven't heard many complaints of phantom braking due to AEB, which could happen even if TACC were not engaged. Most of the complaints involve TACC.

And TACC certainly can slow the car more than 30 mph. Otherwise it wouldn't be able to handle a stoplight on a road with a 45 mph speed limit! In addition, I've certainly had it slow more than that (properly) when encountering a traffic jam after travelling at highway speeds.


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## GDN (Oct 30, 2017)

DocScott said:


> The 30 mph limit only applies to AEB, right? I haven't heard many complaints of phantom braking due to AEB, which could happen even if TACC were not engaged. Most of the complaints involve TACC.
> 
> And TACC certainly can slow the car more than 30 mph. Otherwise it wouldn't be able to handle a stoplight on a road with a 45 mph speed limit! In addition, I've certainly had it slow more than that (properly) when encountering a traffic jam after travelling at highway speeds.


Don't mix apples and oranges - this is only for AEB - emergency braking as noted from what was quoted directly from the Tesla manual.

Not to be confused or mixed up with any FSD - stoplight or following a car kind of braking. Those can stop from 90 MPH down to 0.

The phantom braking is when the computer can't determine what it is seeing - the overpass. This is 99.99 to 100% of the cases I think most of us talk about, going under an overpass. It thinks at first it sees a stopped object, but then you override, or as you get closer it can determine the object is not in your way and it resumes.


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## DocScott (Mar 6, 2019)

GDN said:


> Don't mix apples and oranges - this is only for AEB - emergency braking as noted from what was quoted directly from the Tesla manual.
> 
> Not to be confused or mixed up with any FSD - stoplight or following a car kind of braking. Those can stop from 90 MPH down to 0.
> 
> The phantom braking is when the computer can't determine what it is seeing - the overpass. This is 99.99 to 100% of the cases I think most of us talk about, going under an overpass. It thinks at first it sees a stopped object, but then you override, or as you get closer it can determine the object is not in your way and it resumes.


I'm super-confused. I'm clearly missing your point, but I can't figure out what I'm getting wrong about what you're trying to say. Here's what I understand you're saying, starting with your original post: please tell me what I'm getting wrong.

You said you recently had 1 or 2 phantom braking events after your first time on the open road using FSD in a couple of months. So this sounds to me like we're talking about phantom braking as an effect that shows up under FSD. As the rest of this thread discusses, just TACC is sufficient, but I agree that it does not usually show up under manual control.

Then you quote from the manual about AEB. AEB can kick in even during manual driving.

Then you say the features being discussed are beta, which is true of AP and FSD. Is it still true of TACC? I can never remember. And I'm almost certain it's not true of AEB.

I then point out that the limit you describe is only true of AEB, and not TACC, and you tell me I'm mixing apples and oranges, when what I thought I was doing was separating the apples and oranges from each other on the plate that you provided me.

As an aside, you attribute 99.9% plus of phantom braking episodes discussed on this site to overpasses. That's certainly false, as a review of past posts will show. Many of the cases involve overpasses, but many do not. In any case, I don't understand how that relates to the rest of what you're saying. Are you saying that phantom braking is AEB kicking in when it sees an overpass, but somehow that only happens when TACC (or higher) is engaged? I think that particular scenario, when it's due to AEB, is a small fraction of phantom braking reports, as I believe it would then be accompanied by the AEB emergency beeps, and most phantom braking reports don't mention that.


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## Jason F (Jul 6, 2018)

Don't bother filing bug reports. They go nowhere. They only use it if you have a specific problem and bring it for service and they can review it.


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## Gatica (Oct 25, 2018)

Jason F said:


> Don't bother filing bug reports. They go nowhere. They only use it if you have a specific problem and bring it for service and they can review it.


I had an issue where my cars audio system would randomly turn the volume down when making left turns, service told me they couldn't find any issues and asked me to create a bug report and then note the time and date because otherwise they have to look through miles of logs trying to find things. The SC told me that when filing a "Bug Report" flags what was happening at the time you created the bug report making it easier to locate what was happening at the time of creation. They were then able to read these remotely and locate the issue that needed to be addressed on my car which was replacing some components in the steering wheel.

I create a bug report when I know that I am going to sending them an email or calling a SC to report in issue thus giving them a place to start looking. I do this every time I have a "phantom breaking" event, my steps are:
1. Create a bug report.
2. Contact Tesla and let them know the issue and that there is a bug report created with the date and time that I created the bug report.


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## styleruk (Dec 3, 2018)

garsh said:


> FYI, I rented some car (a little Mazda SUV, IIRC) that had adaptive cruise control. I actually had a worse "phantom braking" episode with that car than I anything that's recently happened in my Tesla.


Indeed, whilst my wife's Toyota has adaptive cruise, it has never phantom braked. But I have heard of other vehicles doing this, namely mercedes.
Also, whenever I use the voice control to 'report bug', my navigation changes to a place in america called 'bug'. Do a lot of people go there


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## FRC (Aug 4, 2018)

styleruk said:


> Indeed, whilst my wife's Toyota has adaptive cruise, it has never phantom braked. But I have heard of other vehicles doing this, namely mercedes.
> Also, whenever I use the voice control to 'report bug', my navigation changes to a place in america called 'bug'. Do a lot of people go there


I can only locate Big Bug, Arizona(a ghost town) and Buggs Island in Virginia(an uninhabited island). Where is the Bug your car wants to take you to?


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## styleruk (Dec 3, 2018)

FRC said:


> I can only locate Big Bug, Arizona(a ghost town) and Buggs Island in Virginia(an uninhabited island). Where is the Bug your car wants to take you to?


LOL, I never stop to look, I just see the map suddenly zoom out of the UK, go orbital, then start zooming to south-ish USA! I normally stop it by then to put it back to where I want to go. Next time I'll check though!


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## FRC (Aug 4, 2018)

Inquiring minds want to know!!


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