# Turn Signal Stalk, my only issue after my Model 3 test drive



## Mike (Apr 4, 2016)

My only "negative" observation from my test drive experience last night: the way the turn signal stalk works compared to what I am used to, after driving various vehicles for over four decades. No haptic feedback (in my opinion).

Background: Here is what (the latest iteration of) the Model 3 owners manual says about using the turn signal stalk to signal your intentions:










When I used the turn signal stalk (very often in the urban milieu of my eight minute test drive), I never knew if it was engaged or not.

The stalk did not "lock into place" when I desired a continuous turn signal at an intersection.

I asked about this and You You stated that it's a "digital control stalk" (?).

So, from a haptic feedback point of view, I would select a turn signal by pushing up (or down) on the stalk but the stalk would always immediately self center. This happened at every intersection where I wanted to signal my intentions.

I could not hear any turn signal tone.

Reading other threads (links below), it seems there is a turn signal tone to allow aural feedback that the turn signal is on. Someone please confirm that there is, in fact, a turn signal tone

The defroster fan was on full blast during this whole test drive, so the turn signal tone generator needs to know when ambient cabin noise levels are high and produce a louder turn signal tone.

I could not readily see the corresponding turn signal indicator lights, via peripheral vision, during my turns.

My eye's had to (hunt and peck) around a new driving environment to seek out the (far too small) turn signal indicator lights.

I acknowledge that I would eventually learn to look down and to the right for visual feedback that my turn signals are, in fact, on.

TL; DR: I don't like the turn signal control. No tone (that I could hear). No visual indicator (readily seen within my peripheral vision). No turn signal lever "lock in place" for continuous signal. In other words, no feedback.

I see there has already been some discussion in the past on this subject:

https://teslaownersonline.com/threa...r-new-owners-to-share.4806/page-15#post-46938

https://teslaownersonline.com/threa...k-at-the-tesla-model-3.5183/page-8#post-55105

I hope folks who have driven the car for a few weeks can comment on this as I am "vexed" by my takeaway experience of the turn signals


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## mig (Jul 10, 2017)

The BMW i3 has a similar design for the turn signals and it drives me crazy. Sometimes I think I've engaged "continuous" flashing, then go to cancel, and instead engage the signal on the other side and probably look like an idiot. 

It isn't a deal breaker, but poor interface design for sure!


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## Mike (Apr 4, 2016)

mig said:


> has a similar design


That's a real question here, because the owners manual says the signal lever should lock in place when calling for a continuous turn signal.


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## ölbrenner (May 4, 2016)

Haven't tried BMW/Tesla M3 turn signals yet, but perhaps it is driven by intended function, rather than a poor design decision:

https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/posts/2492183/
"With the 3 geared to autonomous driving, they couldn't use a physical detent in the stalk like most other cars use. It needs to be all software driven and not requiring a physical switch."


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## Mike (Apr 4, 2016)

ölbrenner said:


> Haven't tried BMW/Tesla M3 turn signals yet, but perhaps it is driven by intended function, rather than a poor design decision:
> 
> https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/posts/2492183/
> "With the 3 geared to autonomous driving, they couldn't use a physical detent in the stalk like most other cars use. It needs to be all software driven and not requiring a physical switch."


And, from the same thread (sorry, I don't know how to direct quote from TMC to here)....

domenick said: _Also, turn signals. Say you're turning left, usually one just pushes down on the stalk and it stays until the wheel straightens and (hopefully) it turns itself off. In the 3 a push down (or up) gives you 3 blinks and stops. I ended up just holding it down until I wanted it to stop, though I'm not certain that was really working. I was too busy looking around to look down to see if the signal indicator was flashing._

This was my first driving impression of the turn signal control as well. I never knew if they were working either and I was always manually holding the lever up/down when I wanted a continuous signal.


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## AEDennis (Apr 10, 2016)

It took a few hours to get used to it, though many of those from the Tesla Owners Club of Orange County (CA) that we took out for our New Year's Eve (Day) meetup for the ride and drive were perplexed at first, but adjusted quickly, and this was a 5-7 minute drive for folks.

It does remind me of the i3 from the times I've driven that... Perhaps it's the rule for all EVs with 3 in the name!


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## Mike (Apr 4, 2016)

AEDennis said:


> It took a few hours to get used to it, though many of those from the Tesla Owners Club of Orange County (CA) that we took out for our New Year's Eve (Day) meetup for the ride and drive were perplexed at first, but adjusted quickly


Fair enough.

I guess my question now is, how do you know when you only get three signal flashes versus continual signal flashes *without* looking around for the indicator?

A push of the stalk is a push of the stalk.

It's a "one" or "zero" coding proposition (sorry if not the correct term, I don't know computers at all).

How does the car know I want only a three flash event versus wanting the signals on until further notice and/or until I make the turn at an intersection?

....or is it a push of the stalk for a split second versus pushing the stalk for, say, half a second (or longer)?


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## AEDennis (Apr 10, 2016)

Mike said:


> ...
> ....or is it a push of the stalk for a split second versus pushing the stalk for, say, half a second (or longer)?


This... I got used to what it takes to get three blinks, vs. "on until turned"...


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## mig (Jul 10, 2017)

ölbrenner said:


> Haven't tried BMW/Tesla M3 turn signals yet, but perhaps it is driven by intended function, rather than a poor design decision:
> 
> https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/posts/2492183/
> "With the 3 geared to autonomous driving, they couldn't use a physical detent in the stalk like most other cars use. It needs to be all software driven and not requiring a physical switch."


Ah, very good point!



Mike said:


> Fair enough.
> 
> I guess my question now is, how do you know when you only get three signal flashes versus continual signal flashes *without* looking around for the indicator?


Not sure about the Model 3 of course, but on the i3 you push "halfway" to a very soft detent to get 3 blinks, or a hard push to the limit of stalk movement to get continuous blinking. Part of the problem for me is that I think I've pushed all the way, then try to turn off the signal by pushing the other way, which turns on the opposite signal, so I try to turn *that* signal off and get blinks the other way -- and I'm quite sure I look like a crazy person.

This is only a problem for lane changes, for normal road turning I seem to be better at turning on a continuous signal and it then turns off automatically after the turn as you'd expect.


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## north75 (Dec 7, 2017)

I've driven multiple BMW's with this design and haven't really had an issue with it. I don't know how the Tesla detents feel vs. BMW, but it is very easy to know when you've pushed past the 3 blink position. My wife's Acura MDX works the same way. (I actually thought most cars had gone to this type of system, and was thoroughly rebuked on another forum when I suggested as much)


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## John (Apr 16, 2016)

None of the minor controls in the Model 3 can "click into place" or have manual positions because they all have to be controllable by the car. To have a stalk that locks into place, the car would have to add sensor inputs (the top and bottom positions) and a servo to return the stalk to center. You can't allow a situation in which a control is manually in one position and something else is happening. Instead, all of the controls are just momentary contacts that can send a pulse to the system to interpret.

It also explains the choices for wiper controls. You can't have a stalk that is clicked into three positions, or a ring that is twisted into position. Everything needs to be a bump or a touch, not a set position. That's why the only discrete manual wiper control is a button, and the bulk of the control is via touchscreen.

The two exceptions I think are:
1. The steering wheel, but this DOES have the expensive sensors and servos to make it controllable by the car
2. The hazard lights, since you need to be guaranteed that these are controllable by a person even if the system is down

Tesla COULD HAVE made the turn signal stalk click, and let the car have servos to be able to ghost it up and down. But more cost, and a lot less reliable than a simple momentary contact. And realize that once you have physical controls, you almost inevitably limit the ability to improve them over the air. The current wiper logic on the Model 3 allows a great deal of future improvement. Instead of three hard speeds, you can have any number, any pattern.

The turn signals aren't awkward due to Tesla forgetting what a good turn signal is like. It's due to very purposeful design decisions. This is analogous to our smartphones which don't have buttons any more. Is a glass screen nice to touch? Oh heck, no. It's awful—no tactile feedback, very twitchy, very position dependent, blah blah blah. But "more satisfying buttons" leads to dramatically less software flexibility. Instead we choose to let our apps draw buttons and controls—many of which are quite creative and could never be "built"—and suffer with rubbing on glass all day. 

Yay! And Ugh!


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## Petra (Sep 12, 2017)

Mike said:


> So, from a haptic feedback point of view, I would select a turn signal by pushing up (or down) on the stalk but the stalk would always immediately self center. This happened at every intersection where I wanted to signal my intentions.





mig said:


> The BMW i3 has a similar design for the turn signals and it drives me crazy. Sometimes I think I've engaged "continuous" flashing, then go to cancel, and instead engage the signal on the other side and probably look like an idiot


This is how BMW's non-mechanical turn signal stalks have worked for over a decade, even in the 3-series.


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## Ken Voss (Feb 2, 2017)

John said:


> None of the minor controls in the Model 3 can "click into place" or have manual positions because they all have to be controllable by the car. To have a stalk that locks into place, the car would have to add sensor inputs (the top and bottom positions) and a servo to return the stalk to center. You can't allow a situation in which a control is manually in one position and something else is happening. Instead, all of the controls are just momentary contacts that can send a pulse to the system to interpret.
> 
> It also explains the choices for wiper controls. You can't have a stalk that is clicked into three positions, or a ring that is twisted into position. Everything needs to be a bump or a touch, not a set position. That's why the only discrete manual wiper control is a button, and the bulk of the control is via touchscreen.
> 
> ...


Sure, controls should not be mechanical and must be digital to support future FSD but that does not mean you can not have a tactical "click" for the driver when engaged. Good example is the home button of iPhone 7 and newer, this button is not mechanical but you certainly feel a "click" when pressing it.


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## Mike (Apr 4, 2016)

north75 said:


> I don't know how the Tesla detents feel


I do not recall any detent to feel, thus my lack of confidence regarding the status of the blinker (burst of three flashes or continuous flashes)


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## Mike (Apr 4, 2016)

AEDennis said:


> This... I got used to what it takes to get three blinks, vs. "on until turned"...


So, a very quick flick of the lever versus ensuring the lever is stopped at its maximum range of motion for a good half second.

Have I correctly summarized the correct turn signal stalk procedure?


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## Maevra (Oct 24, 2017)

It takes a bit of getting used to, but once you get learn how the turn signal stalks behave it's easy to know when you do the three flashes vs continuous turn signal feels.

Just push up or down gently until you encounter some resistance and then let go- that'll give you the three flashes. If you push past that resistance and go all the way down, that'll activate the continuous turn signal mode. I think of the first push as a "half click vs full click" (like cameras).

What I had real difficulty with was pushing up/down to turn OFF the signals in continuous mode. I'd always push too far in the opposite direction and activate the opposite turn signal, which was annoying. So a new habit I've developed is thus:

1. If LEFT turn indicator is on and you want to turn it off, just do the half click/tap DOWN on the stalk and it will turn it off.
2. If RIGHT turn indicator is on and you want to turn it off, do that half click/tap UP to turn it off.

It's weird but works for me.


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## Mike (Apr 4, 2016)

Maevra said:


> . If LEFT turn indicator is on and you want to turn it off, just do the half click/tap DOWN on the stalk and it will turn it off.
> 2. If RIGHT turn indicator is on and you want to turn it off, do that half click/tap UP to turn it off.


Maevra, thanks for the tip. I will try your technique the next time I drive the Model 3.....hopefully before I take delivery.


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## TrevP (Oct 20, 2015)

By and large most cars these days have the 3 flash for lane changes at the first detent and full on flash at full deflection.

I noticed the momentary nature of the Model 3 turn stalks during our deep dive video and thought it was strange to go that route but like anything you get used to it. Turning the wheel enough turns cancels it as normal stalks do but it’s something you get used to and learn to adjust to it.

Not a big deal, just like the wiper controls.


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## AEDennis (Apr 10, 2016)

TrevP said:


> By and large most cars these days have the 3 flash for lane changes at the first detent and full on flash at full deflection.
> 
> I noticed the momentary nature of the Model 3 turn stalks during our deep dive video and thought it was strange to go that route but like anything you get used to it. Turning the wheel enough turns cancels it as normal stalls do but it's something you get used to and learn to adjust to it.
> 
> Not a big deal, just like the wiper controls.


It only takes minutes to get used to.


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## Mike (Apr 4, 2016)

TrevP said:


> I noticed the momentary nature of the Model 3 turn stalks during our deep dive video and thought it was strange to go that route but like anything you get used to it.


Thanks Trevor. Now that I'm expecting that characteristic, my 2nd time behind the wheel will not have to deal with that as a distraction.


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## Guest (Jan 7, 2018)

Mike said:


> The defroster fan was on full blast during this whole test drive, so the turn signal tone generator needs to know when ambient cabin noise levels are high and produce a louder turn signal tone.


Actually, this is an interesting idea. Does make sense, but must be configurable. I would also change blinking icon to inverter color (black on white background or white on black background).

Though it's best to learn the stalk at standstill with audio and fan off. It's like driving a bicycle: once you learn it, it is not possible to forget (that is actually true).



Petra said:


> This is how BMW's non-mechanical turn signal stalks have worked for over a decade, even in the 3-series.


Correct. And this also applies to wiper stalk. It also returns to default location no matter how you move it, that includes single swipe and max speed wiping, which can be activated by double click or heavy click.







Mike said:


> So, a very quick flick of the lever versus ensuring the lever is stopped at its maximum range of motion for a good half second.
> 
> Have I correctly summarized the correct turn signal stalk procedure?


Speed has nothing to do with how stalk reacts. There is a resistance point halfway the push. Up to that point turn indicator will flash 3 times (or one can hold the stalk in that position for unlimited time). Over that point (even for a tenth of a second) and it will blink until steering wheel returns to center after a turn.
So exactly like here:





I will try to explain how stalks should be operated.
- First of all, hands at 9 and 3 position on the wheel.
- While still holding the wheel, raise one finger on the left hand, usually index finger.
- In case of light click (for example lane change on a highway), tap in appropriate direction from above or below the stalk, activating tripleblink. After tapping, lower the finger and do the lane change.
- In case blinker should operate for longer but no actual turn will happen, it is easy to just keep the finger up, holding the stalk lightly. For example waiting for a merge on a straight road.
- In case of heavy click (for example intersection, waiting at red light), same procedure, though letting go the wheel is fine. Still, one or two finger operation is recommended. Don't grab the stalk with the whole hand!
- In many longer lasting situations, one can let the left hand loose (still keeping at 9 position) to let right hand do the turning and simultaneously operate the stalk with finger(s).
- In some weird scenarios, one can also turn the hand with the wheel and raise the finger (while holding the wheel), so at some point, finger will touch the stalk. Keep in mind indicator should blink 2-3 times BEFORE changing lanes/exiting roundabout!
- In case blinker was heavily pushed (doesn't stop) on a straight road (merging for example), to stop blinking, raise the finger (while holding the wheel) and tap in the opposite direction of blinking. Keep in mind not to nudge the wheel while nudging the stalk.

In all situations, stalk will always wait for your finger at the resting position. No need to visually look to find.


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## Mike (Apr 4, 2016)

arnis said:


> Does make sense, but must be configurable. I would also change blinking icon to inverter color (black on white background or white on black background).


Arnis: awesome post, thanks for the tips.

I feel the owners manual could make mention that the stalk always returns to its normal, centered position as soon as your finger leaves it......

The more I think about my test drive, the more I wish I could configure the UI to suit my personal brain pattern of thinking, versus a software engineer's pattern of thinking.

Niether pattern of thinking is wrong as long as the task is completed, but (for one example) I would have those signal icons very different from the current iteration, one where I could see them only requiring my peripheral vision.

Cheers.


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## garsh (Apr 4, 2016)

Mike said:


> The more I think about my test drive, the more I wish I could configure the UI to suit my personal brain pattern of thinking


I was thinking that the biggest downside of allowing that is that you wouldn't be able to just jump into another car - it would be all different. Likewise, someone else driving your car would be confused.

BUT... any sort of changes like this could be tied to a driver profile instead of to the car. So you could configure things the way you like, and when your car is in the shop, the loaner car gets automatically configured to your liking. I'm not saying that Tesla will (or even should) do this, but this sort of approach is only even possible with a Tesla.


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## Mike (Apr 4, 2016)

garsh said:


> I was thinking that the biggest downside of allowing that is that you wouldn't be able to just jump into another car - it would be all different. Likewise, someone else driving your car would be confused.
> 
> BUT... any sort of changes like this could be tied to a driver profile instead of to the car. So you could configure things the way you like, and when your car is in the shop, the loaner car gets automatically configured to your liking. I'm not saying that Tesla will (or even should) do this, but this sort of approach is only even possible with a Tesla.


I just debriefed my dad on my test drive and I ended up telling him that this is all software, so anything is possible.

As for the specific blinker icons, if I could custom configure them, they would be:

only visible when active ("transparent" when not active)

located in the absolute upper left/right of the UI (much like a desktop "widget")
2.5 cm in diameter
This would allow confirmation of the blinker being active via peripheral vision without moving my focus from the traffic situation ahead.


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