# Cost per mile versus ICE?



## tencate (Jan 11, 2018)

An interesting observation about the price of oil and Supercharging. My "fun" ICE car is an old Triumph, gets around 25 mpg. Gasoline is now around $1.50 a gallon and in some places in NM it's been as low as 99 cents a gallon. Let's see, that works out to (100 cents / gallon) / (25 miles / gallon) = 4 cents a mile. Egads, how much does Supercharging cost again? Could it be that it's cheaper to drive an ICE cross country than my Model 3?! :-( :-( :-(


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## garsh (Apr 4, 2016)

It's been cheaper for me to use my gas vehicle than my electric vehicle for the past eight years. 



garsh said:


> As I posted here a little while ago (I'm going car shopping tomorrow), I recently bought a Hyundai Tucson. I had thought about going all-electric with my vehicles. Maybe get a CPO Model S in addition to the 3, plus keep the Leaf for when my youngest son starts to drive later this year. But I just couldn't do it. I decided I needed to keep one gasoline car around. Sure, living with the Leaf for the past 6 years has given me a nice case of range anxiety, but that's not the reason. No, the deal-hunter in me has a reason that I just can't ignore.
> 
> My gasoline is free.
> 
> ...


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## tencate (Jan 11, 2018)

garsh said:


> It's been cheaper for me to use my gas vehicle than my electric vehicle for the past eight years.


OK, to be fair, my electricity cost here is free too. I still have free Supercharging miles from a couple of referrals and the county makes "juice" free to residents so I don't actually pay for it.
But I think of the tesla.com website where you can display prices in actual costs or costs with savings... and part of that is savings from not buying gas right? We live in interesting times...


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## GDN (Oct 30, 2017)

There is no cost you can put on the thrill and enjoyment of driving the Tesla over most anything ICE. Just pay those SC prices !!


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## JasonF (Oct 26, 2018)

garsh said:


> It's been cheaper for me to use my gas vehicle than my electric vehicle for the past eight years.


First time you get an oil change, though...


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## John (Apr 16, 2016)

My Model 3 has averaged 0.253 kWh/mile over 40K miles.

My electricity at home costs $.12/kWh. That's 0.253 x $0.12 = *3 cents per mile*
Supercharging costs $0.26 on average near me. That's 0.253 x $0.26 = 6.5 cents per mile

We don't take more than one or two long trips a year, so 98% of our miles are 3 cents.

Keep in mind: electricity is *MUCH* more likely to be the current price than gas is to be $1 in the future.


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## JasonF (Oct 26, 2018)

I don't do a lot of computation of whether the Model 3 is much cheaper to drive than my previous Mitsubishi. That would admittedly be a losing fight, since the Mitsubishi was paid off, and it's really hard to offset the cost of now having a monthly financing payment. I'm not going to be dishonest enough with myself to pretend I'm actually saving a ton of money _right now_. I will be once the financing is paid off, though.

What is nice _right now_ is the capability to leave home and go to work, or out somewhere in town for fun (when there isn't a lockdown), and not require a stop for fuel. It's nice that when I have to make extra trips somewhere for work or to pick something up that I have to go back out for because I forgot it, it costs mere pennies, and I only have to suffer the annoyance of going back out rather than _also_ having to buy more fuel. It came in even more handy early in the quarantine when I had to pick something up from work to bring home - no fuel stop, just head there and back, for only a few cents. No worries about a dead battery causing no-start during long strings of days at home, because the car is always plugged in and ready to go.


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## John (Apr 16, 2016)

It’s important to appreciate the power of emotion and expectations.

Let me use an example.

By the end of 2006, it was considered a waste of money to spend more than $99 for a phone. Feature phones were crazy competitive, and Nokia dominated.

Fast forward to now, when it is not stupid to spend $500 on a phone.

There is only one carmaker whose cars have more compute power than that phone today. That computing keeps you safe, entertains you, drives for you.

Shouldn’t it cost more?

Isn’t it worth more?

Isn’t it time to change expectations?


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## Klaus-rf (Mar 6, 2019)

As soon as one includes the car payment for a Tesla, then that old ICE car comes out way ahead on a per-mile cost. Total cost of ownership is what should be discussed, not the very limited "fuel" costs.


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## John (Apr 16, 2016)

Klaus-rf said:


> As soon as one includes the car payment for a Tesla, then that old ICE car comes out way ahead on a per-mile cost. Total cost of ownership is what should be discussed, not the very limited "fuel" costs.


Also don't forget to factor in resale and maintenance. Those are positives in Tesla's favor.

Insurance is a negative. Still driven by price of cars.

Yes, there are cheaper miles. For instance, as each of our three kids got their license, we bought a used 2009-2010 Prius for each of them with lowish miles and very new-looking for about $9K. Super cheap to drive, big nav screens. They are the flip phones of cars, but fine for youngsters.


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## JasonF (Oct 26, 2018)

John said:


> Yes, there are cheaper miles. For instance, as each of our three kids got their license, we bought a used 2009-2010 Prius for each of them with lowish miles and very new-looking for about $9K. Super cheap to drive, big nav screens. They are the flip phones of cars, but fine for youngsters.


There is _always_ something cheaper to use as an example, and there will _always_ be people who declare that anyone who doesn't buy the absolute cheapest item is a fool. It's a trick called commoditizing - treating every product within a broad range to be exactly the same, aside from price. Those are the people who do videos/TV shows where they find the absolute cheapest drivable car at Copart and claim that this is what you should be driving if you're smart. What they don't take into account is the total value of ownership of what you've purchased, or residual value, or actual utility you will get from it.


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## Needsdecaf (Dec 27, 2018)

Here are the lifetime stats of my recently deceased 2018 LRAWD:

Months in service: 14
Total miles driven: 34,566
Previous ICE Car lifetime average: 28.5 MPG
Number of gallons of gas avoided: 1,230
Gas prices for super unleaded between 2.35 and 2.89 in my area during this time. 
Price per kWh for 12 months: $0.117 and $0.0705 for 2 months
Total saved on gas vs. electricity: $2,243.50
Savings per month: $160.25
Savings per mile: $0.065
Total kWh: 10,537
kWh/Mile: .305 (this factors in charging losses)
Electrical cost / mile: $0.033


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## Mr. Spacely (Feb 28, 2019)

I've had my Model 3 for a year now. Total cost of maintenance was $20 for a tire rotation. Plugged in occasionally at home because I get free electricity at work-- well, I used to back when I actually went to the office...


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## MelindaV (Apr 2, 2016)

I've not seen gas prices at $.99 since I was first driving (in the late 80s!).

having some of the lowest electricity prices, and highest fuel prices makes the NW a prime electric car market!

here's my car's lifetime summary from Teslafi









Average cost: $0.02/mile based on my home electricity rate ($0.03/mile when adding in the Supercharging I've paid for)

comparing to my prior two cars (that I recorded all their fuel purchases)....
one cost an average of $0.161/mile and the other $0.149/mile.

So I can go 7-8 times as far per dollar on electricity as on gasoline. (not to mention ICE maintenance)

ETA: the gas station in my neighborhood that I previously used is listed at $3.09/gal this morning.


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## garsh (Apr 4, 2016)

MelindaV said:


> I've not seen gas prices at $.99 since I was first driving (in the late 80s!).


I seem to recall that it dipped down below a dollar again in 1999 for a few weeks/months.
<quick search/>
Yeah, it looks like gas prices dipped in 1998, with an average price of $1.06.

https://www.energy.gov/eere/vehicle...storical-annual-gasoline-pump-price-1929-2015


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## Klaus-rf (Mar 6, 2019)

^^
That's part of the problem with the slow adoption of EVs - the artificially low cost of petrol. If we added enough taxes just to cover the real cost of road repairs, we'd have 20%+ market penetration of EVs and many fewer ICEs. Sustained $8 -10/gallon petrol prices will have a MAJOR impact on EV adoption.


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## Needsdecaf (Dec 27, 2018)

Klaus-rf said:


> ^^
> That's part of the problem with the slow adoption of EVs - the artificially low cost of petrol. If we added enough taxes just to cover the real cost of road repairs, we'd have 20%+ market penetration of EVs and many fewer ICEs. Sustained $8 -10/gallon petrol prices will have a MAJOR impact on EV adoption.


We have plenty of taxes to cover the real cost of road repairs. What we have is much of that money being siphoned off for other projects.

You could also argue that EV's, not being taxed at the pump, would also have to pay a separate tax. In fact, some states are already trying to do this.

But that's another discussion.


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## GDN (Oct 30, 2017)

MelindaV said:


> I've not seen gas prices at $.99 since I was first driving (in the late 80s!).
> 
> having some of the lowest electricity prices, and highest fuel prices makes the NW a prime electric car market!
> 
> ...


Local current prices in Dallas from Gas Buddy.


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## JasonF (Oct 26, 2018)

It's averaging about $1.75 here in Central Florida. Might be the demand side keeping prices up, Florida has had trouble getting trucks to come down here to deliver things.


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## FRC (Aug 4, 2018)

$1.67 average in North Georgia, but more importantly, my wife and I don't care!


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## tencate (Jan 11, 2018)

Interesting discussion. Figured my post might provoke that.  Mind you, I'll never buy another ICE car (unless it's a _really_ interesting one like an old Aston Martin or something...). Most of us here are EV fanatics and you all probably think the way I do. But I'm mostly thinking of folks I know who were thinking about buying an EV before the oil and gas drop (and COVID-19) and now the "gas savings" argument I always used to use---which was pretty compelling before---is now, well, less appealing. (Darn, no supercharger miles referrals in the foreseeable future. )

By the way, I've got 62k miles on my car and my lifetime efficiency (displayed on the car) is 222 Wh/mi. Me? I've saved a BUNCH of cash by not having to buy gasoline---and had a blast driving all those miles to boot!


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## Nom (Oct 30, 2018)

222Wh/mi!!! Over 62K miles. Wow!! That is a lot of efficient driving!


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## tencate (Jan 11, 2018)

Nom said:


> 222Wh/mi!!! Over 62K miles. Wow!! That is a lot of efficient driving!


Current hypothesis is that air density and concomitant air drag is a LOT less for me than most. Putzing around at altitudes between 5000 (Albuquerque) and 7000 ft (Santa Fe and Los Alamos) seems to matter a lot. Or maybe it's something else, it _is_ an early car... but I don't baby it. Yeah, I'm pretty extremely happy with the car.


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## MelindaV (Apr 2, 2016)

garsh said:


> I seem to recall that it dipped down below a dollar again in 1999 for a few weeks/months.
> <quick search/>
> Yeah, it looks like gas prices dipped in 1998, with an average price of $1.06.
> 
> https://www.energy.gov/eere/vehicle...storical-annual-gasoline-pump-price-1929-2015


maybe nationally, but not here. the 2000 car I bought in Feb '00 I remember laughing with the sales guy over the "estimated annual fuel cost: $783" (20/29 MPG) and saying at our fuel prices that'd only get you about 8000 miles, not the 12000-15000 generally used for an annual mileage.

(it's totally not weird to have a 20+ year old window sticker for a car you no longer own within reach, right?)


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## Klaus-rf (Mar 6, 2019)

MelindaV said:


> (it's totally not weird to have a 20+ year old window sticker for a car you no longer own within reach, right?)


 I have several. And many digital pictures of others that I gave to the new owners when I sold the cars.


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## bwilson4web (Mar 4, 2019)

Gas prices change almost daily whereas electric rates have a longer time frame, $0.11/kWh. Regardless, looking at today:

$60 electric charging costs for 1,980 miles, January 2020, with free charging and breakfasts at motels -> *$0.030/mile*
$25 electric charging costs for 711 miles, June 2019, in 14 hours -> *$0.035/mile*
25 kWh/100 miles at local $0.11/kWh -> *$0.028/mile* ... not counting free charging while shopping
*$0.018/mi* based on previous BMW i3-REx metrics

$1.45/gal (Gasbuddy for Costco/SAMs club) with 1.9 gal/100 mi (Prius Prime) -> *$0.028/mile*
Thanks to "stay at home" orders, all gassed up but no where to go.

The irony is Southeast Toyota Region all but forbids sale of the Prius Prime. I had to fly to Rhode Island to buy mine which last year I traded in for our Std Rng Plus Model 3. As for value:

First across intersection - Model 3
First to speed limit - Model 3
Quietest - Model 3
Cheapest to maintain avoiding oil and air filter changes - Model 3
Best lane keeping - Model 3
Best lane changing - Model 3
Best speed management - BMW i3-REx (MagicEye) reads speed signs with manual set and dynamic cruise control
Prius Prime manual set with dynamic cruise control

Bob Wilson


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## Klaus-rf (Mar 6, 2019)

bwilson4web said:


> The irony is Southeast Toyota Region all but forbids sale of the Prius Prime. I had to fly to Rhode Island to buy mine


 Southern Arizona here. No plug-in Toyota's available to purchase in the state - must buy it in California. And on top of that Toyota corp forbids any AZ dealership / service center from working on them.

It's almost like Toyota doesn't like EVs.


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## Needsdecaf (Dec 27, 2018)

MelindaV said:


> maybe nationally, but not here. the 2000 car I bought in Feb '00 I remember laughing with the sales guy over the "estimated annual fuel cost: $783" (20/29 MPG) and saying at our fuel prices that'd only get you about 8000 miles, not the 12000-15000 generally used for an annual mileage.
> 
> (it's totally not weird to have a 20+ year old window sticker for a car you no longer own within reach, right?)


nope, not at all.

(First and second cars bought new, have all the rest too)


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## PA_Ray (Nov 12, 2017)

Interesting discussion. Last September I put in a solar array that (annualized) generates more electricity than I use including charging my Tesla. Not sure how to calculate since dividing by zero gives an error. 
I too have only paid to rotate/rebalance the tires and for windshield wiper fluid. When talking about total cost I must add one other expense. I now take my Tesla to the car wash occasionally, never did that with the old junker. Another expense, let's capture them all.


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## Needsdecaf (Dec 27, 2018)

PA_Ray said:


> Interesting discussion. Last September I put in a solar array that (annualized) generates more electricity than I use including charging my Tesla. Not sure how to calculate since dividing by zero gives an error.
> I too have only paid to rotate/rebalance the tires and for windshield wiper fluid. When talking about total cost I must add one other expense. I now take my Tesla to the car wash occasionally, never did that with the old junker. Another expense, let's capture them all.


Well to be fair, I'm sure the solar system wasn't free...


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## Klaus-rf (Mar 6, 2019)

Needsdecaf said:


> Well to be fair, I'm sure the solar system wasn't free...


 True dat.

But can you legally write-off [at least a portion of] the cost of the solar system as a vehicle expense on your taxes?? Assuming the Tesla is mostly used for business.


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## StromTrooperM3 (Mar 27, 2019)

Klaus-rf said:


> But can you legally write-off [at least a portion of] the cost of the solar system as a vehicle expense on your taxes?? Assuming the Tesla is mostly used for business


I'm sure that really depends. My business I can write off the % of my home that's used for business.

Just for simple numbers. Your home is 2000sq ft. Your office is 200 sq ft, I can write off 10%, electric, 10% water, 10% gas etc. I'm not sure that an elective system like that would quality for the same deduction.

Maybe we have some tax people that can comment. Usually those systems come with their own tax incentives as far as I know


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## FRC (Aug 4, 2018)

StromTrooperM3 said:


> I'm sure that really depends. My business I can write off the % of my home that's used for business.
> 
> Just for simple numbers. Your home is 2000sq ft. Your office is 200 sq ft, I can write off 10%, electric, 10% water, 10% gas etc. I'm not sure that an elective system like that would quality for the same deduction.
> 
> Maybe we have some tax people that can comment. Usually those systems come with their own tax incentives as far as I know


Yes, you can write off the applicable % over time.


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## StromTrooperM3 (Mar 27, 2019)

FRC said:


> Yes, you can write off the applicable % over time.


But a solar installation?


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## FRC (Aug 4, 2018)

StromTrooperM3 said:


> But a solar installation?


If it is supplying power to anything used for business, then absolutely YES.


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## StromTrooperM3 (Mar 27, 2019)

FRC said:


> If it is supplying power to anything used for business, then absolutely YES.


Hum interesting. Thanks gonna verify with my accountant for the next house


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## Nom (Oct 30, 2018)

I just did a 1400 mile road trip over 3 days. From Boston area into upstate NY, down into central PA, to Baltimore, up into PA again, NJ, NYC, up into upstate NY, CT, and back to Boston area. College quick visits. 

Supercharged the whole way after home. Did the math based on SC fees (including adjusting for battery level upon departure and arrival at home).

At $2 a gallon works out to equivalent ICE mpg of about 23.

Admittedly, the drive has lots of hills. Fair bit of highway but often I took the local routes (many were gorgeous). Still, I was hoping for better comparison to an ICE.

Still - loved the ride, the car, and the seats. Awesome experience.


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## Madmolecule (Oct 8, 2018)

Gasoline will only get cheaper in the future. This is a direct result of EV ‘s. Oil is in a transitioning phase from a very sought after commodity to a pollutant. There is still a lot of money behind it but it’s just like the 100 watt incandescent lightbulb.


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## JasonF (Oct 26, 2018)

Gasoline will also get cheaper as EV's creep into the market and demand for gas dwindles, and on-the-way charging will get more expensive as EV use increases and vendors see opportunity. So eventually there will be a point where it's going to always be cheaper to use gasoline than electricity.

But, where the real savings will always be isn't on road trips, it's daily routine. If you charge at home, you avoid both vendors of gasoline and of charging, which will _always_ be cheaper. And that's not even counting maintenance cost differences.


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## shareef777 (Mar 10, 2019)

JasonF said:


> Gasoline will also get cheaper as EV's creep into the market and demand for gas dwindles, and on-the-way charging will get more expensive as EV use increases and vendors see opportunity. So eventually there will be a point where it's going to always be cheaper to use gasoline than electricity.
> 
> But, where the real savings will always be isn't on road trips, it's daily routine. If you charge at home, you avoid both vendors of gasoline and of charging, which will _always_ be cheaper. And that's not even counting maintenance cost differences.


And the best part is that is that utility companies will have to remain competitive for life as they'll NEVER have a monopoly because of solar. As more EVs go into people's homes more solar will tag along. Oil industry can/does adjust prices over the most fickle things.


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## Nom (Oct 30, 2018)

I'm thinking @Jason F doesn't live in Massachusetts. Our home electric rates are pretty damn high. Similar to supercharger rates.


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## JasonF (Oct 26, 2018)

shareef777 said:


> And the best part is that is that utility companies will have to remain competitive for life as they'll NEVER have a monopoly because of solar. As more EVs go into people's homes more solar will tag along. Oil industry can/does adjust prices over the most fickle things.


They'll still have a monopoly, because most power companies still own the transmission lines, and most solar installations aren't fully grid independent.

What annoys me though is why the power companies don't subsidize solar/energy storage installs, since they do a very good job of helping balance grid demand. I don't know why they don't even go as far as to lease solar installations for a flat monthly fee to replace your normal electric bill. They actually get more out of it than property owners do.


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## shareef777 (Mar 10, 2019)

JasonF said:


> They'll still have a monopoly, because most power companies still own the transmission lines, and most solar installations aren't fully grid independent.
> 
> What annoys me though is why the power companies don't subsidize solar/energy storage installs, since they do a very good job of helping balance grid demand. I don't know why they don't even go as far as to lease solar installations for a flat monthly fee to replace your normal electric bill. They actually get more out of it than property owners do.


I can completely get off the grid for $50k with Tesla. Not cheap at all, but it's there. So if the power companies want to keep pushing prices higher while Tesla (and other solar providers) keep pushing prices lower, that negates any monopoly they have. My current ROI is 25 years to go solar and be completely off the grid, or 15 years if I want to stick with the grid for backup power (my provider offers net metering).

The key is that we as individuals can actually produce our own energy which means power companies HAVE to compete with US. That's never been the case with the oil industry. The only competition they had was which exec could get the largest yacht.


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## JasonF (Oct 26, 2018)

shareef777 said:


> I can completely get off the grid for $50k with Tesla. Not cheap at all, but it's there. So if the power companies want to keep pushing prices higher while Tesla (and other solar providers) keep pushing prices lower, that negates any monopoly they have. My current ROI is 25 years to go solar and be completely off the grid, or 15 years if I want to stick with the grid for backup power (my provider offers net metering).
> 
> The key is that we as individuals can actually produce our own energy which means power companies HAVE to compete with US. That's never been the case with the oil industry. The only competition they had was which exec could get the largest yacht.


That number has been drastically increased to something like $87,000 now.


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## shareef777 (Mar 10, 2019)

JasonF said:


> That number has been drastically increased to something like $87,000 now.


Still showing ~$50k for me. This is the largest setup you can get and 2 power walls ("only" 6 days of battery backup).


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## JasonF (Oct 26, 2018)

shareef777 said:


> Still showing ~$50k for me. This is the largest setup you can get and 2 power walls ("only" 6 days of battery backup).


Maybe it's regionally priced, then. Here just the solar array alone is about $50k, solar plus batteries would be way more. Supply and demand, I guess...


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## shareef777 (Mar 10, 2019)

JasonF said:


> Maybe it's regionally priced, then. Here just the solar array alone is about $50k, solar plus batteries would be way more. Supply and demand, I guess...


Wow, that sucks to hear. I understand it can fluctuate considering it includes the cost of labor for install, and that usually varies greatly region to region, but I'd of never thought it'd be that drastic.

Wondering if you're looking at solar roof. That's different then solar panels as it essentially includes a new roof. I'm specifically talking about putting panels over an existing roof.


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