# Curious EV Survey



## JasonF

I took a survey from FleetCarma, the company Duke Energy hired to handle the "SmartCharge Rewards" here. There were a few curious and sometimes concerning questions on the survey.

There were _several_ questions referring to demand pricing for electricity, which makes me concerned that Duke Energy is considering making that a thing across all of their markets.

Another one referred to whether I would still charge at home and/or continue to prefer an EV if it became more expensive.

And the most concerning question asked where I would prefer charging if home charging was no longer allowed (I don't even know how they would enforce that...).

Hopefully this is a random set of questions, and not stuff the power companies are actually considering.


----------



## Bigriver

JasonF said:


> And the most concerning question asked where I would prefer charging if home charging was no longer allowed (I don't even know how they would enforce that...).


Why would they ever ban, or even try to discourage, home charging? It's typically done at night when other demands aren't as great, so should be easiest for the grid to handle.


----------



## shareef777

Demand pricing isn’t that bad where I’m at (IL using ComEd). I’ve had occasions where off-peak rates (especially in the summer) have gone into the negative. So I get PAID to charge my 3. Not very frequently, but it does happen.


----------



## JasonF

Bigriver said:


> Why would they ever ban, or even try to discourage, home charging? It's typically done at night when other demands aren't as great, so should be easiest for the grid to handle.


Don't ask me, I didn't write the survey!


----------



## Bigriver

I had never heard of demand pricing. This would appear to have a pretty good explanation: https://news.energysage.com/how-do-demand-charges-work/



shareef777 said:


> Demand pricing isn't that bad where I'm at (IL using ComEd).


I'd be curious of more details of your rate structure, specifically the fixed price that gets set by your peak demand for the month. Are there tiers like 5 kW, 10 kW, 15 kW, more...?

I'm a little (well, maybe a lot) neurotic about my energy usage. If I had demand pricing, it sounds like it would be time to get a gas dryer and stove, and time to dial back on the amps when charging the car. I mostly can do these things off my solar/powerwalls in the summer, but I'm using the grid in the winter.


----------



## shareef777

Bigriver said:


> I had never heard of demand pricing. This would appear to have a pretty good explanation: https://news.energysage.com/how-do-demand-charges-work/
> 
> I'd be curious of more details of your rate structure, specifically the fixed price that gets set by your peak demand for the month. Are there tiers like 5 kW, 10 kW, 15 kW, more...?
> 
> I'm a little (well, maybe a lot) neurotic about my energy usage. If I had demand pricing, it sounds like it would be time to get a gas dryer and stove, and time to dial back on the amps when charging the car. I mostly can do these things off my solar/powerwalls in the summer, but I'm using the grid in the winter.


I'm subscribed to hourly pricing. It's usually $.01-$.03 per kWh, though there are peak demand charges that can skyrocket the cost up to $1/kWh). ComEd has a server and app available to track hourly rates. I use an app IFTTT that monitors the pricing and tweaks my AC to turn off during peak demand. And my Tesla is set to charge at 2a so I'm always getting some of the lowest prices to charge with.

Note that there are also a lot of other charges as well (delivery, multiple meter fees, and taxes, this IS IL after all).


----------



## GDN

It seems concerning that there are even thoughts running through someones head to ask those kinds of questions. Big business just trying to figure out once again how they can screw the consumer. Not much unlike the oil industry and how those prices have fluctuated with big events in the world and how they want the prices to meet what they need at the time.


----------



## JasonF

GDN said:


> It seems concerning that there are even thoughts running through someones head to ask those kinds of questions. Big business just trying to figure out once again how they can screw the consumer. Not much unlike the oil industry and how those prices have fluctuated with big events in the world and how they want the prices to meet what they need at the time.


That's hitting the nail on the head. I never thought myself that would even be a viable possibility, but that question came from _somewhere_.


----------



## JasonF

Reviving this thread because I got yet another survey from Duke Energy and Fleetcarma that is a little bit concerning in places.










This screenshot refers to part of the survey which asks what kinds of changes would get me to change my charging behavior. It seems innocent enough (except for the scary "time of use rates" implication). But then this question immediately follows:










I'm using a basic 32-amp Mobile Connector. It's quite possible they put this question on the survey because they just love the buzzword "smart-charging" (or smart-anything), but it also sort of implies they're considering either require a specific type of EV charger to be installed in your home to continue home charging, or that they will bill at a much higher rate if you don't have one.

What do you think?


----------



## shareef777

JasonF said:


> Reviving this thread because I got yet another survey from Duke Energy and Fleetcarma that is a little bit concerning in places.
> 
> View attachment 38009
> 
> 
> This screenshot refers to part of the survey which asks what kinds of changes would get me to change my charging behavior. It seems innocent enough (except for the scary "time of use rates" implication). But then this question immediately follows:
> 
> View attachment 38010
> 
> 
> I'm using a basic 32-amp Mobile Connector. It's quite possible they put this question on the survey because they just love the buzzword "smart-charging" (or smart-anything), but it also sort of implies they're considering either require a specific type of EV charger to be installed in your home to continue home charging, or that they will bill at a much higher rate if you don't have one.
> 
> What do you think?


They likely won't require a specific charger, just that the charger be fed by a supplier controlled relay. My AC unit has something similar. Same AC unit I've always had, same thermostat and same controller board. They just added a relay that controls the 220V 40A supply to my compressor to cut power during high peak usage and/or when the grid is under stress. Admittedly they can "technically" break my AC compressor if they cycle it too often, but they're aware of such issues and ensure that there's logic to prevent over-cycling my compressor. In return I get a small credit to my monthly electric bill. Been running it for years. Ironically, these types of incentives (along with time of use rates) is the reason I haven't installed solar. A solar system would take me almost 20years to recoup my investment.


----------



## JasonF

shareef777 said:


> They likely won't require a specific charger, just that the charger be fed by a supplier controlled relay.


Let me emphasize that I'm using a _standard Mobile Connector plugged into a 14-50 outlet. _So this wouldn't be a case of "when you have your contractor install your EVSE, make sure they install a smart relay", or "When you have your contractor install your EVSE/Tesla Wall Connector it will come with the necessary relay". For me (and whoever is like me) it becomes "you can't use your 14-50 outlet and wall connector". I would have to shell out a lot of money for a smarter charger, whether it's a specific one or not, and if it's mandated that way, it would no doubt require a licensed electrician to install and certify (so you can't install your own and 'forget' to hook up the control wires).

Would it be worth it to do that? I doubt it. I think I only used to spend something like $20 a month maximum on charging, and a lot less now working from home. Getting a few cents per kilowatt discount for a smart charger would never pay back the installed cost. And Duke Energy knows it, too, which is why I think it would be a requirement rather than making it optional and offering discounts as a reward.

How would they enforce it? I'm already a member of Smartcharge Rewards, and they know I have an EV and I'm charging it at home. All they have to do is send a letter that says after Blah 1, 2021, I must use an approved EVSE or stop charging at home. And probably that they'll give me a $100 rebate on the EVSE and installation, and that the penalty for ignoring that is an egregious monthly fee.


----------



## shareef777

JasonF said:


> Let me emphasize that I'm using a _standard Mobile Connector plugged into a 14-50 outlet. _So this wouldn't be a case of "when you have your contractor install your EVSE, make sure they install a smart relay", or "When you have your contractor install your EVSE/Tesla Wall Connector it will come with the necessary relay". For me (and whoever is like me) it becomes "you can't use your 14-50 outlet and wall connector". I would have to shell out a lot of money for a smarter charger, whether it's a specific one or not, and if it's mandated that way, it would no doubt require a licensed electrician to install and certify (so you can't install your own and 'forget' to hook up the control wires).
> 
> Would it be worth it to do that? I doubt it. I think I only used to spend something like $20 a month maximum on charging, and a lot less now working from home. Getting a few cents per kilowatt discount for a smart charger would never pay back the installed cost. And Duke Energy knows it, too, which is why I think it would be a requirement rather than making it optional and offering discounts as a reward.
> 
> How would they enforce it? I'm already a member of Smartcharge Rewards, and they know I have an EV and I'm charging it at home. All they have to do is send a letter that says after Blah 1, 2021, I must use an approved EVSE or stop charging at home. And probably that they'll give me a $100 rebate on the EVSE and installation, and that the penalty for ignoring that is an egregious monthly fee.


For my AC example I wasn't installing any new equipment. I'd been living in my home for 4 years when I got my 3 and started looking at electric incentives. ComEd sent out their own tech that installed the relay at no cost to me. In all honesty, I don't even know how they communicate with the device to determine when there's peak load. I just see the cost savings and using IFTT I'm actually able to keep my home colder then I'd normally die by lowering the thermostat during low cost periods.


----------



## JasonF

shareef777 said:


> For my AC example I wasn't installing any new equipment. I'd been living in my home for 4 years when I got my 3 and started looking at electric incentives. ComEd sent out their own tech that installed the relay at no cost to me. In all honesty, I don't even know how they communicate with the device to determine when there's peak load. I just see the cost savings and using IFTT I'm actually able to keep my home colder then I'd normally die by lowering the thermostat during low cost periods.


Air conditioning is different because it's hard wired in. I was referring to the Tesla Mobile Connector - the one that comes with the car, and plugs in like an appliance. There's no way to add a relay to it even if the power company does it for free - they would have to require me to buy a different EVSE or Wall Connector in order to make it work. That's what I was getting at. And then they may or may not require it to be installed by a licensed electrician (to make sure their relay equipment works).

Those relay devices work by detecting a ripple at a certain frequency transmitted through the power line by the substation, and that is triggered by the power company switching on the ripple if they detect that your substation's power frequency is dropping (meaning it's under very heavy demand).


----------



## iChris93

JasonF said:


> There's no way to add a relay to it even if the power company does it for free - they would have to require me to buy a different EVSE or Wall Connector in order to make it work.


There is a way. They add a box before the the outlet. They do this with both AC units and hot water heaters.


----------



## JasonF

iChris93 said:


> There is a way. They add a box before the the outlet. They do this with both AC units and hot water heaters.


The power cable for it goes through the attic and inside the wall, so I guess they would have to put something like that in the attic.


----------



## iChris93

JasonF said:


> The power cable for it goes through the attic and inside the wall, so I guess they would have to put something like that in the attic.


Or next to it, like an AC compressor disconnect.


----------



## shareef777

They can even offer a NEMA 14-50 adapter (as well as other receptacle options). Will they though? Not likely.


----------



## JasonF

There's kind of a problem with attaching a relay like that to an outlet. It might be either not code or not regulation for the power company, due to the fact that there's no guarantee that the device they're switching with the relay will always been the intended device, no matter how hard you swear that it will only be used for EV charging. You could volunteer a 14-50 outlet in the garage for demand switching, and then use a completely different one that was behind a shelf when the installer arrived. So they probably want a permanently installed device to attach the relay to.


----------



## iChris93

JasonF said:


> There's kind of a problem with attaching a relay like that to an outlet. It might be either not code or not regulation for the power company, due to the fact that there's no guarantee that the device they're switching with the relay will always been the intended device, no matter how hard you swear that it will only be used for EV charging. You could volunteer a 14-50 outlet in the garage for demand switching, and then use a completely different one that was behind a shelf when the installer arrived. So they probably want a permanently installed device to attach the relay to.


Why are you so worried that the power company is trying to punish you? They like that you have an EV because you're paying them for energy!


----------



## shareef777

iChris93 said:


> Why are you so worried that the power company is trying to punish you? They like that you have an EV because you're paying them for energy!


And the fact that we can use the power when ever they want us to (via incentives of course 😉).


----------



## iChris93

shareef777 said:


> And the fact that we can use the power when ever they want us to (via incentives of course 😉).


Exactly. They inventive off-peak hours but don't really punish you otherwise.


----------



## JasonF

iChris93 said:


> Why are you so worried that the power company is trying to punish you? They like that you have an EV because you're paying them for energy!


I don't think they're trying to punish me, I think it's very possible though they don't really have a clue about EV charging. Maybe they hire an expert who tells them that EV drivers all have to install a smart EVSE to charge, so that's what they expect.

I did see a few videos from the UK though, and though the power company works a bit differently there, they seem to be required to choose one of a few acceptable EVSE brands if they plan on charging at home.


----------



## iChris93

JasonF said:


> I don't think they're trying to punish me, I think it's very possible though they don't really have a clue about EV charging. Maybe they hire an expert who tells them that EV drivers all have to install a smart EVSE to charge, so that's what they expect.
> 
> I did see a few videos from the UK though, and though the power company works a bit differently there, they seem to be required to choose one of a few acceptable EVSE brands if they plan on charging at home.


When I first got my Model 3, the power company here was experimenting with several different plans. One of them included having a separate meter installed and only that one would be on TOU or you could even pay a flat rate for unlimited charging! They'll figure it out. Definitely be wary, but I don't think it's worth stressing over.


----------

