# Has anyone with HW2.5 installed 2022.24.6 or higher and gone vision only



## mcmoyer (Oct 22, 2018)

I've seen a lot of people saying that vision only is limited to HW3. I have a HW2.5 vehicle, but I've been dismissing the update button for around a week now because my autopilot works great as it is. I'd rather not transition over to Vision Only if I don't have to. At the same time, it's a bit frustrating to continuously dismiss the box whenever I get in the car. 

I know some people say that Vision Only is great for them and I'm happy for them. I'd rather not take that chance right now. 

Anyway, looking for anyone who has HW2.5 and has installed at least 2022.24.6 and if it switched them over.


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## Ed Woodrick (May 26, 2018)

You are going to have to go there sometime. The sooner you go, the sooner you get used to it. 
I don't think that you will see as much difference as you anticipate


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## mcmoyer (Oct 22, 2018)

Ed Woodrick said:


> I don't think that you will see as much difference as you anticipate


I'd like to think that, but my wife's 2021 Vision only MY is utter garbage when it comes to cruise control or AP. We're already planning on trading it in because as she says, "It the funnest car I've ever hated". She came from an Infiniti and was not prepared for wipers that don't work correctly, cruise control she can't use, or a consistent phone connection, etc. The good news is that she's sold on EVs now so I won't have to worry about her going back to ICE vehicles.


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## herr_akkar (4 mo ago)

I was just updated to Tesla Vision, and although it works fine in sparse traffic with steady speed, I find it useless, absolutely useless in tight stop-and-go traffic.
The minimum following distance is now 2, meaning it leaves a huge gap that is always an invitation to other cars to pop into. I hate that.

This was already degraded by an update earlier this year, where it started having a very relaxed start-up when the car in front accelerated. It would allow a huge gap before following, but would then get to the programmed distance when stopping again. The huge gap would annoy both me and cars behind me, and usually one or more cars would take the invitation and pop into the gap. It probably seemed like I was sleeping and not paying attention.
With Tesla Vision and a following distance of two, this is too relaxed for me to use. I have stopped using TACC, it is not compatible with my driving anymore.

Before the first of these two relaxation updates, it was perfect. It would basically accelerate as fast as the car in front to keep a constant distance. Just perfect. Then it got worse. Then it got unusable.
This is my personal view. If you already have a very relaxed style and stay in the slow lane, it is probably just as you want it.


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## jmaddr (Apr 10, 2019)

2.5 and 2022.24.8 here and still on radar (nothing in release notes about vision only and operates pretty much the same). I seriously doubt 2.5 has the cycles to go vision only.


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## Bigriver (Jan 26, 2018)

herr_akkar said:


> Before the first of these two relaxation updates, it was perfect. It would basically accelerate as fast as the car in front to keep a constant distance. Just perfect. Then it got worse. Then it got unusable.
> This is my personal view. If you already have a very relaxed style and stay in the slow lane, it is probably just as you want it.


FSD Beta has very fast acceleration when in city streets mode. It keeps a very close distance to the car in front of it, and neither the follow distance nor the chill/standard/assertive settings have any effect. It is way too fast on the acceleration and close to the car in front of me for my taste. On the other hand, in highway mode, it seems to have no acceleration. I often have situations at the end of construction or tunnels where traffic speeds up rapidly, but autopilot does not. It seems to have limited itself to a pokey acceleration of 1 mph per second. I often have to supplement it.

These acceleration extremes are one of my biggest frustrations with autopilot lately.


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## DocScott (Mar 6, 2019)

Tesla finds a lot of different ways to tick owners off.

I bought a car with HW2.5. At some point, I added AP, but not FSD.

Later, I upgraded to HW3, in order to "future-proof" the car. I figured at some point there would be features that didn't require FSD but did require HW3. And yes, there are a few! For example, HW3 lets my car read speed limit signs.

But if it turns out that having HW3 means new updates make my car vision-only while if I'd stayed HW2.5 my car would still use the radar, I'll blow my top. It would mean I paid Tesla to _downgrade_ my car.


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## Perscitus (Feb 23, 2017)

That is sadly exactly what the HW3.x radar hardware retcon and brute force application of Vision, amounts to. 

greetheonly and a few others speculate that radar is still somehow used (if present), but the reality is the only way to opt out of Vision with recent software builds is to be on the deprecated HW2.5 or earlier platforms.

Otherwise Vision not only retcons radar buy also forces a. auto-highbeam b. auto-wipers c. closer follow distance d. lower top speed e. OCD cleaning of external cameras (figures).


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## iChris93 (Feb 3, 2017)

Perscitus said:


> c. closer follow distance


It’s the opposite.


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## Bigriver (Jan 26, 2018)

Perscitus said:


> Otherwise Vision not only retcons radar buy also forces a. auto-highbeam b. auto-wipers c. closer follow distance d. lower top speed e. OCD cleaning of external cameras (figures).


I was in the first wave of cars that had radar disabled. While at first there were a few glitches with some phantom hesitations, I feel absolutely no issues now. I’ve had no problems with auto high beams (which you can manually turn off the high beams if you want), no problems with auto windshield wipers, I don’t even know what max allowable speed currently is because it’s higher than I’ve ever needed to go, and I’ve not once cleaned the exterior cameras (other than I guess they get clean in general car washing). I’m just a datapoint of 1 (x2 cars), but the vision only thing just isn’t something that I’ve had issues with.



DocScott said:


> But if it turns out that having HW3 means new updates make my car vision-only while if I'd stayed HW2.5 my car would still use the radar, I'll blow my top. It would mean I paid Tesla to _downgrade_ my car.


I’m going to put my chips on the bet you likewise will have no big deal with vision only AND in the long run, you have indeed future proofed your car with HW3. HW2.5 is going to be (already is) a legacy system that gets an after-thought in the programming process.


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## Ed Woodrick (May 26, 2018)

mcmoyer said:


> I'd like to think that, but my wife's 2021 Vision only MY is utter garbage when it comes to cruise control or AP. We're already planning on trading it in because as she says, "It the funnest car I've ever hated". She came from an Infiniti and was not prepared for wipers that don't work correctly, cruise control she can't use, or a consistent phone connection, etc. The good news is that she's sold on EVs now so I won't have to worry about her going back to ICE vehicles.


That really sounds as if there is a bigger problem or if it is an expectations problem. When you start talking about wipers, Bluetooth, then that's something different. 
My wipers work great, while it doesn't bother me, my wife does hit the single sweep button in very light rain. Cruise control works great. My phone connection is pretty good, my wife complains (When you store your phone in your purse and something blocks the car from seeing it or when you store your phone in the door pocket and calls start dropping, well that's self-inflicted.)


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## mcmoyer (Oct 22, 2018)

Ed Woodrick said:


> That really sounds as if there is a bigger problem or if it is an expectations problem. When you start talking about wipers, Bluetooth, then that's something different.
> My wipers work great, while it doesn't bother me, my wife does hit the single sweep button in very light rain. Cruise control works great. My phone connection is pretty good, my wife complains (When you store your phone in your purse and something blocks the car from seeing it or when you store your phone in the door pocket and calls start dropping, well that's self-inflicted.)


Yeah, on my car that almost all of this stuff works great as well. Her car has quirk after quirk. Windshield wipers will randomly come on during a completely dry day and squeal across the windshield, so she always have to turn them off from the 'auto' setting. Roughly 25% of the time when she answers a call in her car, she can here the other party, but they can't hear her. For the first month of ownership, the sub would randomly stop working and her audio would sound like an old AM pocket radio until you rebooted the car. I don't think her expectations were out of the norm for this stuff to work reliably. Her previous car had traffic aware cruise control that didn't phantom brake, automatic windshield wipers that detected actual rain, a phone connection that didn't have issues (but didn't sound as good as the Tesla) and her Bose system never required a car reboot.


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## Ed Woodrick (May 26, 2018)

mcmoyer said:


> Yeah, on my car that almost all of this stuff works great as well. Her car has quirk after quirk. Windshield wipers will randomly come on during a completely dry day and squeal across the windshield, so she always have to turn them off from the 'auto' setting. Roughly 25% of the time when she answers a call in her car, she can here the other party, but they can't hear her. For the first month of ownership, the sub would randomly stop working and her audio would sound like an old AM pocket radio until you rebooted the car. I don't think her expectations were out of the norm for this stuff to work reliably. Her previous car had traffic aware cruise control that didn't phantom brake, automatic windshield wipers that detected actual rain, a phone connection that didn't have issues (but didn't sound as good as the Tesla) and her Bose system never required a car reboot.


Does the same happen when you are driving her car?


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## mcmoyer (Oct 22, 2018)

Ed Woodrick said:


> Does the same happen when you are driving her car?


The phantom braking, random windshield wipers, and sub not working have all happened to me as well. I don't connect my phone up in her car because she's usually riding in the passenger seat. I won't use her car unless I absolutely have to because it's just not as enjoyable to drive because of the issues. Forgot to mention the incessant "X camera blocked warnings", although the are a lot less frequent now compared to when we first got the car. Maybe all those camera re-alignments I've done have had some effect.


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## Klaus-rf (Mar 6, 2019)

mcmoyer said:


> Her previous car had traffic aware cruise control that didn't phantom brake, automatic windshield wipers that detected actual rain, a phone connection that didn't have issues (but didn't sound as good as the Tesla) and her Bose system never required a car reboot.


 Ah, reminds me of the Good Ole Days!!

I still remember reaching over, while still keeping both eyes on the road, and flipping the AC fan switch up one notch, then rotating the AC temp knob down two degrees all from muscle memory - no need to look over. And the 10+ years I owned that car, those knobs and switches never moved or hid themselves from me.


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## Ed Woodrick (May 26, 2018)

mcmoyer said:


> The phantom braking, random windshield wipers, and sub not working have all happened to me as well. I don't connect my phone up in her car because she's usually riding in the passenger seat. I won't use her car unless I absolutely have to because it's just not as enjoyable to drive because of the issues. Forgot to mention the incessant "X camera blocked warnings", although the are a lot less frequent now compared to when we first got the car. Maybe all those camera re-alignments I've done have had some effect.


I'd highly recommend having your phone setup as at least a key in case there's an emergency. 

Setting it up as Bluetooth is something that you can do to try to troubleshoot the situation.


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## mcmoyer (Oct 22, 2018)

I installed the update tonight, 2022.28.2 had downloaded, and no mention of Tesla Vision and my following distance can still be set to 1. Seems like having vintage hardware isn't so bad right now.


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## DocScott (Mar 6, 2019)

mcmoyer said:


> I installed the update tonight, 2022.28.2 had downloaded, and no mention of Tesla Vision and my following distance can still be set to 1. Seems like having vintage hardware isn't so bad right now.


So when I thought I was "future-proofing" my car by paying to upgrade to HW3 (without having FSD), I was actually paying to lose the use of my radar with future updates?


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## Ed Woodrick (May 26, 2018)

DocScott said:


> So when I thought I was "future-proofing" my car by paying to upgrade to HW3 (without having FSD), I was actually paying to lose the use of my radar with future updates?


Why in the heck does everyone seem to believe that this version is the last one that Tesla will ever release?
There may be some features degraded in the version, as most know, the rules will change with the next version


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## DocScott (Mar 6, 2019)

Ed Woodrick said:


> Why in the heck does everyone seem to believe that this version is the last one that Tesla will ever release?
> There may be some features degraded in the version, as most know, the rules will change with the next version


Do you seriously believe that any future update will restore utilization of the radar?

If that did happen, it would mean Tesla Vision was a total, abysmal failure, and that they'd be planning to retrofit radars into the newer cars that don't have them.

I find that sequence of events to be very unlikely.

Thus, I paid to have my radar disabled. I may eventually get some compensating benefits, and maybe what I have will be better, overall, than what people who have HW2.5 get. Maybe. But I still will have paid to have my radar disabled.


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## Ed Woodrick (May 26, 2018)

DocScott said:


> Do you seriously believe that any future update will restore utilization of the radar?
> 
> If that did happen, it would mean Tesla Vision was a total, abysmal failure, and that they'd be planning to retrofit radars into the newer cars that don't have them.
> 
> ...


No, but I don't believe that RADAR is required to drive. If I'm not mistaken, you aren't using RADAR to drive, are you?

It is the same as Tesla removing the ultrasonic sensors, Tesla has decided that the vision system can calculate the distance just as well.


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## DocScott (Mar 6, 2019)

Ed Woodrick said:


> No, but I don't believe that RADAR is required to drive. If I'm not mistaken, you aren't using RADAR to drive, are you?


I don't really understand your point. The sound system and air conditioner aren't required to drive the car, either. I would not be happy if they were taken away.

Do I _use_ the radar to drive? Yes, I do. I often use TACC, and on my current firmware in my car TACC uses the radar. Even if I don't have TACC on, the radar is used for emergency braking.



Ed Woodrick said:


> It is the same as Tesla removing the ultrasonic sensors, Tesla has decided that the vision system can calculate the distance just as well.


Not quite. Tesla has decided that the vision system, with improved firmware to be released at some point in the _future_, will be able to calculate the distance just as well as the vision+radar system can with the firmware I have _now_. For now, though, it can't.


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## Ed Woodrick (May 26, 2018)

RADAR is not required. I'm not sure why you think that it is. Give Tesla a release or two to get it back to where it was.

Not sure about your second point, I believe that the announcement were that new cars were about to go out the door without the sensors. 

Did you watch AI day? Did you really see any indications that there were any problems with distance rendering? I was see pretty good 3D rendering, something so far beyond what RADAR and ultrasonic can do.


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