# People buy Tesla for the cars.....despite Elon.



## Needsdecaf

https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a35797034/survey-tesla-buyers-not-musk-fans/
Most people in the auto industry assume Tesla buyers are drawn to the brand's high-tech image or are fans of its mercurial CEO, Elon Musk. But a new survey from research firm Escalent suggests that's far from the real story.

The real reason is simpler, and far more traditional: They like the cars.
https://www.caranddriver.com/tesla/model-3
https://www.caranddriver.com/tesla/model-y
"In fact," Mike Dovorany, VP at behavior and analytics firm Escalent, told _Car and Driver, _"among respondents who are shopping for or already own an EV-Tesla or otherwise-Elon Musk is among the top [drawbacks in] their consideration of the brand."

Escalent's research, part of its EVForward program, was conducted among a national sample of 1003 respondents, including a survey, focus groups, and interviews with industry experts, between December 21, 2020, and February 19, 2021. Respondents were 100 Tesla owners, 100 owners of other electric vehicles, and 803 drivers who do not currently own EVs. They are a subset of the EVForward database of more than 10,000 new-vehicle buyers from 18 to 80, weighted by age, gender, and state of residence to match the demographics of U.S. new-vehicle buyers and by vehicle type to match current sales. The sample for this research came from an opt-in online panel.

Small sample size. But says a lot.

I still say if Elon just stopped tweeting about FSD, Tesla would be a lot better off.


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## MnLakeBum

I knew many early adopters that had Teslas before we got ours in March of 2015, and nearly all of them bought them for the performance. Many were former and/or AMG, M series, or S/RS Audi owners. When we left CA in 2018, the dead-end street we lived on had 11 Teslas(including a Roadster) in the last 20 or so homes that I drove by each day on my way home. They were as common as F150's in northern MN, lol. Two of my buddies now have over 160,000 miles on their 2013 and 2014 Model S. When I buy another EV in the next year, it will be either a Taycan, Audi GT, or Plaid. If I go with a Tesla again, it will be for the performance/acceleration. It's very addicting once you've had a fast car.


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## TomT

I bought my Tesla despite Elon...


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## Needsdecaf

TomT said:


> I bought my Tesla despite Elon...


Cannot like this enough.


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## msjulie

I one of those that bought a Model 3 cause it's a quick, comfortable, quick car that uses no gas. I have no desire for FSD, I prefer driving my own car. Over time I have wondered if Elon's brain and eccentricity are pluses or minuses towards furthering the mission to sell non-ICE cars

- still steaming over the video game UI changes as if no one wants to drive their Tesla


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## Madmolecule

Elon has not only been the companies technoking but he has also been its hype man. In the early days they had to promote the acceleration, and the vision of FSD, to get past the skeptics on battery life, replacement cost and range. I do see so many parallels between Tesla and De Beers. The diamond is also a great product that has properties like no other in his class. The reality is it is been overhyped, overpriced, sold as an investment, and controlled to make them more scarce than they should be. If you were an early adopter you had to buy into Elon’s hype or there’s no way you would made the purchase on logic and product alone. Now I do think the product can stand alone without Elon‘s hype and fantasy and that certainly appears the direction the company is headed as well as Elon. I am concerned he is very close to the point where he’s going to announce is not fun anymore and he’s gonna focus on rockets and digging holes in the dirt. but at least they have a great product that will dominate the market even with him on the periphery.

Elon Electrify Cuba!


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## GDN

Madmolecule said:


> Elon has not only been the companies technoking but he has also been its hype man. In the early days they had to promote the acceleration, and the vision of FSD, to get past the skeptics on battery life, replacement cost and range. I do see so many parallels between Tesla and De Beers. The diamond is also a great product that has properties like no other in his class. The reality is it is been overhyped, overpriced, sold as an investment, and controlled to make them more scarce than they should be. If you were an early adopter you had to buy into Elon's hype or there's no way you would made the purchase on logic and product alone. Now I do think the product can stand alone without Elon's hype and fantasy and that certainly appears the direction the company is headed as well as Elon. I am concerned he is very close to the point where he's going to announce is not fun anymore and he's gonna focus on rockets and digging holes in the dirt. but at least they have a great product that will dominate the market even with him on the periphery.
> 
> Elon Electrify Cuba!


Tesla only needs to do one thing - and it is the hardest thing they will ever have in front of them. Silence Elon's Twitter.


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## Madmolecule

GDN said:


> Tesla only needs to do one thing - and it is the hardest thing they will ever have in front of them. Silence Elon's Twitter.


Problem is you can't silence someone like Elon. That's what I'm concerned about, if they try to silence him or change the way he is, he'll pick up his ball and go.


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## FRC

Madmolecule said:


> Problem is you can't silence someone like Elon. That's what I'm concerned about, if they try to silence him or change the way he is, he'll pick up his ball and go.


Good riddance?


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## TomT

Madmolecule said:


> Problem is you can't silence someone like Elon. That's what I'm concerned about, if they try to silence him or change the way he is, he'll pick up his ball and go.


I'm not sure that is a bad thing... Tesla needs to start acting more like a real car company and with real customer support...


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## iChris93

TomT said:


> with real customer support


Is it Elon that is preventing this?


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## FRC

iChris93 said:


> Is it Elon that is preventing this?


I've seen no evidence that he is encouraging it. Even though he made official statements(at an annual stockholder meeting, I think) that this would be a priority going forward.


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## Madmolecule

With all of Elon‘s faults I am not looking forward to a post Elon Tesla. To be it would be like a post jobs Apple. Teslas board would only be focused on profit and minimizing liability. You cannot bend the space-time continuum by focusing on profit and liability. That is how you make a Pontiac. Elon has created a lot of Fantasy Uncertainty and Doubt but he is turned the market upside down And now all the naysayers were saying they were on board with electric all along. Maybe Elon just knew that electric motors were proven technology that have been around for over 100 years, and batteries would be there very quickly. Basically as soon as the market was aware everyone could make a good electric car. They would all be fast, they would all be reliable in comparison to ice cars. That’s why if Tesla is going to be the elite brand in the future they will need to focus on technology such as full self driving and other automated features to separate themselves from everyone else that makes a fast reliable electric vehicle whether that be a car or a truck or a panel van. Electric is so much more simple than ice and all the other manufacturers know how to build bodies and suspensions.


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## MnLakeBum

I don’t wish for a post Elon era for Tesla and the Steve Jobs comparison is a fair one although Tesla would be extremely fortunate to find a replacement that matches the leadership and CEO skills of Tim Cook. My wife worked at the Apple HQ in Cupertino from 2000-2017 and knew Steve and worked closely with Tim and couldn’t have a higher opinion of him. Under Tim’s leadership Apple has flourished in every measurable way to become the most profitable and valuable company in the U.S.


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## msjulie

I agree that a focus on service and quality should matter more than it seems to - I watch the new release threads and invariably there are new bugs in old features requiring subsequent point fixes. Why? I work in software so I know it is actually possible to accomplish with focus and dedication and time allowed to ensure the quality.

I know some like all the games but I'd honestly like to know what the percentage of folks taking advantage of them compared to cars just being cars.

Maybe I'm no fun but I'd focus more on not breaking existing features, not going too far afield on secondary features over quality, getting a UI designer to help them keep the display legible and useful for all users not just FSD folks, etc.

Elon's offbeat energy can do a lot of good for sure, the fact Tesla is still here and with an incredible market position is testament. I just wish that a real portion of that energy could be directed to making the cars even better with substance over shiny objects.

<ducking>


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## iChris93

msjulie said:


> <ducking>


You shouldn't have to do that for a completely reasonable opinion.


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## JasonF

I have to agree with @Madmolecule - Tesla might be a stronger company now, but its leadership is in a very fragile state. It looks to me from the outside like there is some infighting where half the board and/or stockholders want to halt the creep toward mainstream lower margin vehicles and swing the company back to high margin high end luxury, and the other half want to continue the push toward mainstream. Elon Musk weighs in heavily on the push to mainstream side.

I fear if he leaves abruptly or is forced out, yes, they will focus more on concierge level service again. They will also likely raise the Model 3 and Model Y prices to start at over $60k and fill the gap between it and the Model S, and reposition firmly in the high end luxury market. And the mystery $25k Tesla will be killed, as well as the Cybertruck and Semi, and all development efforts will be focused on the $250k Roadster, because every high end luxury carmaker needs a supercar. The company's focus would drastically change.

Some of you might say good, that's what Tesla needs to do. But the reason why Tesla went mainstream in the first place - besides Elon's influence and mission to make EV's mainstream - was because ultra luxury car buyers have no attention span. Sooner or later something like Lucid comes along with more luxurious and higher status cars, and all of the ultra luxury buyers flock to them. A couple of years later, Tesla would then be bought out for its tech patents, and disappear.


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## GDN

Elon's goal was always mainstream, was it not? He strives for an EV world, high end, expensive is not where he wanted to be, it was where he had to start to get to where he is going.

I'm torn, they need a polished, reserved marketing department. The company is mature enough now, if you want mainstream they have to change a little. They need better, more polished, less buggy, SW releases with substance even if it means only 3 to 4 a year and while Elon causes a large number of problems, I think the company would be in trouble without him.


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## FRC

msjulie said:


> I know some like all the games but I'd honestly like to know what the percentage of folks taking advantage of them compared to cars just being cars.


Amen, sister!


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## bwilson4web

The guy lands rockets and reuses them. He digs tunnels at less than half the price per mile. He understands technology and makes valuable suggestions. He also has an under appreciated sense of humor. He is the Edison of our age.

Bob Wilson


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## JasonF

bwilson4web said:


> The guy lands rockets and reuses them. He digs tunnels at less than half the price per mile. He understands technology and makes valuable suggestions. He also has an under appreciated sense of humor. He is the Edison of our age.
> 
> Bob Wilson


The way I see it, set his personality aside and he's kind of like the rest of us, frustrated with the way things are done now. Except instead of griping about it being the limit of our ability, he can say, "Wait, I have a ton of money and half a dozen companies! I can fix it!" It's way better than spending money on lavish parties and huge homes, and one day getting arrested for consuming huge amounts of cocaine.

The Thomas Edison/Nikola Tesla/Steve Jobs of any generation are just people who think of the same things we do, but they have the motivation and resources to do something about it.


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## Douyon

I bought my 2020 Model X because I was bored with ICE cars and was intrigued with the performance and technology built into the Tesla vehicles. I also was tired of visiting the gas pump and the dealer for maintenance. 

I am thrilled with my 2020 model X performance. I enjoy this car more than my Bentley, Which I sold and do not miss. I don't miss the leather and all the luxury trimmings because honestly, after owning the Bently for over ten years, the interior did not matter. You stop paying attention to it, at least I did, and focused more on the performance and ride. 
I Have also Blown the Doors off Of many Bentleys.
I had a choice, get a new Cadillac Escalade or a Tesla. The Tesla seemed more fun, and again I was tired of going to the gas pump, so I turned in my escalade upon lease end and went to the tesla dark side. I'll never turn back. I also considered the Porshe Tycan, but after driving the tesla then test driving the tycan, I was happy with my decision. The Tycan is fast. But that is it. After you get past that, it's another boring car, in my opinion. 

The Tesla Model X is not as luxurious, but the carbon fiber and white interior is gorgeous and easy to clean. I can wear jeans and not worry about the ink staining the seat like in the Bentley. 
All in all, I am delighted with the model X and plan on getting the cyber truck when available. 

P.S. I think Elon is brilliant. My decision had nothing to do with him, but I'm happy that someone with his knowledge, personality, and forward-thinking is at the helm of an EV I plan on keeping.


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## FRC

Welcome to the "Dark Side".


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## webe3owners

I can see FSD being pushed back a few more years. At this point the FSD fiasco is causing Tesla to lose customers. Tesla and specifically Elon would probably do better admitting it didn’t and probably won’t work for years. That way in a couple years if they do get it to work it will be a pleasant surprise. In the meantime stop selling it at 10 grand as FSD and just sell it as an enhanced cruise control for an extra two or three grand. Refund the difference for those who bought it and cut their losses.

JMHO.


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## MnLakeBum

webe3owners said:


> I can see FSD being pushed back a few more years. At this point the FSD fiasco is causing Tesla to lose customers. Tesla and specifically Elon would probably do better admitting it didn't and probably won't work for years. That way in a couple years if they do get it to work it will be a pleasant surprise. In the meantime stop selling it at 10 grand as FSD and just sell it as an enhanced cruise control for an extra two or three grand. Refund the difference for those who bought it and cut their losses.
> 
> JMHO.


Agree that FSD is way too expensive and the technology is just not there yet. I don't have it on mine but each time I've used FSD on a loaner it's made some mistakes that can be scary. No way I would pay more that a couple thousand for it.


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## Garlan Garner

Michael Jordan said at one point in his career.....

"Its amazing how people constantly give me advice about basketball - and they have no idea what I'm doing and can't do it themselves".

"They have no idea what it takes to be me".

"I believe I'm the best at what I do.....and they think I need to be better".

"For me to be better is to not be who I am".

Guess what - I'm the best person at being an engineer - while at the same time being the father of my kids and husband of my wife- while at the same time being a choir director at my church - while at the same time playing the piano - while at the same time being the landscaper for my community - while at the same time playing chess in tournaments - while at the same time.....
I'm not the best at any one of them alone, but I'm the best at doing all of them together.

Tesla - keep doing all that you are doing - its paying off for so many in so many ways for so many people. You may not be the best at every single thing....but you seem to be the best at all of them together.

Top 5 SADDEST/EMOTIONAL Elon Musk Moments & Interviews - YouTube


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## garsh

Garlan Garner said:


> Tesla - keep doing all that you are doing - its paying off for so many in so many ways for so many people. You may not be the best at every single thing....but you seem to be the best at all of them together.


As long as Tesla's technology remains 10 years ahead of the competition (seriously, how many EVs are even as good as a 2008 Roadster or a 2012 Model S at a comparable price yet?), then they won't have to worry about improving customer service. So in one sense, I agree with you. Tesla can keep focusing on improving their technology and production, and they'll continue to be able to sell every car they produce despite poor customer/sales/service experiences.

Some day, the technology gap will narrow. I personally think that's still 5-10 years away. But when it happens, they're going to have to adapt to remain competitive.


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## iChris93

garsh said:


> As long as Tesla's technology remains 10 years ahead of the competition (seriously, how many EVs are even as good as a 2008 Roadster or a 2012 Model S at a comparable price yet?), then they won't have to worry about improving customer service. So in one sense, I agree with you. Tesla can keep focusing on improving their technology and production, and they'll continue to be able to sell every car they produce despite poor customer/sales/service experiences.
> 
> Some day, the technology gap will narrow. I personally think that's still 5-10 years away. But when it happens, they're going to have to adapt to remain competitive.


And what about the reputation they're setting for themselves? How long will that follow them? They need to adapt before there is real competition.


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## Garlan Garner

iChris93 said:


> And what about the reputation they're setting for themselves? How long will that follow them? They need to adapt before there is real competition.


Their reputation is what is selling their cars.

There is no marketing nor advertising. Their reputation is just fine. What they are doing right now is what they have always done and its growing.

Business 101 says that the only way for things to change is to change it. Nothing will change if you don't touch it.

Their reputation won't change unless they do something to change it. Leave it alone and it will continue to be better than everyone elses.


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## FRC

Garlan Garner said:


> Their reputation is what is selling their cars.


Dead wrong. The product is desired by many and _currently_ has no serious competition. This is what is selling their cars. If I was a pickup truck guy, and Ford's customer service was on par with Tesla's, I'd be driving a Chevy or a Dodge...GUARANTEED. I wouldn't have to put up with substandard customer service because other options would be available to me.

A Tesla is a fantastic product sold by a lousy business. And as @iChris93 said, their reputation is bad and getting worse. And it will follow them around for decades if they don't work to change it. I know we're a small sample size, but just look at how many of us HERE, who love our cars, are seriously disenchanted with the way Tesla is doing business. And we're Tesla 'fanboys"!!


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## Needsdecaf

FRC said:


> Dead wrong. The product is desired by many and _currently_ has no serious competition. This is what is selling their cars. If I was a pickup truck guy, and Ford's customer service was on par with Tesla's, I'd be driving a Chevy or a Dodge...GUARANTEED. I wouldn't have to put up with substandard customer service because other options would be available to me.
> 
> A Tesla is a fantastic product sold by a lousy business. And as @iChris93 said, their reputation is bad and getting worse. And it will follow them around for decades if they don't work to change it. I know we're a small sample size, but just look at how many of us HERE, who love our cars, are seriously disenchanted with the way Tesla is doing business. And we're Tesla 'fanboys"!!


Was listening to Spike's Car Radio Podcast this morning. He just ordered a Model Y to replace his wife's 5 series PHEV. Why?

"Because there weren't any comparable alternatives, so despite myself and Elon, I ordered one". (parahprhasing)

It's the product, not the reputation.

Let me tell you, when I bought my Model 3 in 2018 I LOVED the car. But I was scared to death of Elon and Tesla in general. My friend, who was then on his 5th Tesla, said: "you put up with that because the car is so good....unless you get a bad one. Then you bug them until they lemon it." Truer words have never been spoken.

Now, he traded his Model 3 for a Taycan, and his wife's X lease is up and she's getting a Cayenne PHEV. Why?

"Time to Exit the Elonverse. Tired of all the drama".

This is a guy who has like 7 powerwalls on two different houses, solar arrays out the yin yang, has owned like 7 EV's and a few PHEV's, lives in Silly-con valley. If anyone's not going to get tired of the Tesla Drama, it's him.

And yet he did.

To be fair, he still says Tesla makes a better EV than anyone else, even his Taycan. He says it's not even close how well Tesla has it all worked out. And yet....he still walked away.

Never over-estimate people's appetite for Drama. Eventually we all get worn out.


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## Garlan Garner

FRC said:


> Dead wrong. The product is desired by many and _currently_ has no serious competition. This is what is selling their cars. If I was a pickup truck guy, and Ford's customer service was on par with Tesla's, I'd be driving a Chevy or a Dodge...GUARANTEED. I wouldn't have to put up with substandard customer service because other options would be available to me.
> 
> A Tesla is a fantastic product sold by a lousy business. And as @iChris93 said, their reputation is bad and getting worse. And it will follow them around for decades if they don't work to change it. I know we're a small sample size, but just look at how many of us HERE, who love our cars, are seriously disenchanted with the way Tesla is doing business. And we're Tesla 'fanboys"!!


Nope....not buying it. NOT dead wrong.

If Teslas were crashing all over the place - bad reputation.
If Teslas were breaking down all of the time - bad reputation.
If Teslas occasionally fail to move/start - bad reputation.
If Teslas were ugly - bad reputation. 
If Teslas were slow - bad reputation
If Teslas had range anxiety - bad reputation.
If Teslas weren't the safest cars on the road - bad reputation.

Everywhere I go - people say - My grandson/daughter/friend/whomever told me about Tesla's, let me see yours....show me what the hype is all about.
I have entered TONS of car shows and there is ALWAYS a swarm around my car. The first one I'm entered in is in London OH on Friday. The next one is on April 24th ( drive electric earth day ) There are bolts/leafs/volts/i3's/etrons/ and even karmas there.
Scroll down the list of competition. List of production battery electric vehicles - Wikipedia.

I can't help it if people aren't buying other EV's as they are Tesla's. It certainly doesn't mean there is no competition.

I'll agree to disagree.


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## JasonF

Garlan Garner said:


> Nope....not buying it. NOT dead wrong.


I agree with you on that one. The reason why a lot of people don't care whether they buy a GM or Ford truck all that much is because they're commoditized - they're both just boxes on wheels, the interiors are similar, performance is similar, price is similar, etc.

But there is currently nothing like a Tesla. People can call the VW ID.4 or the Ford Mustang Mach-E Tesla Killers, but they're not. They're a VW and a Ford, the Porsche EV is a Porsche, the Hyundai Kona is a Hyundai. Sure you can commoditize them as EV's, but they're not interchangeable from a consumer perspective. Maybe all anyone needs is a VW or a Hyundai or a Ford, but not if what they want is a Tesla. The only company that made any effort to be interchangeable with a Tesla is XPeng from China, and those probably won't be readily available outside of China.


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## Garlan Garner

I would also like to mention that Tesla's competition really aren't other BEV's. 

Tesla's competition is and will always be ICE cars. 

Other BEV companies aren't trying to go against Tesla's mission statement.


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## garsh

Garlan Garner said:


> Tesla's competition is and will always be ICE cars.


Is? Yes.
Always will be? No. Eventually EVs are going to be the mainstream choice. It's going to be a while though.


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## Needsdecaf

Garlan Garner said:


> I would also like to mention that Tesla's competition really aren't other BEV's.
> 
> Tesla's competition is and will always be ICE cars.
> 
> Other BEV companies aren't trying to go against Tesla's mission statement.


Unfortunately this doesn't sell clicks on the media. So that every new decent EV that comes out has to be labeled a "Tesla killer".

As usual, they are looking at it entirely wrong.


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## Garlan Garner

Needsdecaf said:


> Unfortunately this doesn't sell clicks on the media. So that every new decent EV that comes out has to be labeled a "Tesla killer".
> 
> As usual, they are looking at it entirely wrong.


Sell clicks?

Sell cars - that's the ticket.


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## Needsdecaf

Garlan Garner said:


> Sell clicks?
> 
> Sell cars - that's the ticket.


You missed my point.


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## FRC

Needsdecaf said:


> You missed my point.


Seems to be a regular occurrence for some!!


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## Madmolecule

garsh said:


> Is? Yes.
> Always will be? No. Eventually EVs are going to be the mainstream choice. It's going to be a while though.


A good list

https://www.driving.co.uk/news/new-cars/current-upcoming-pure-electric-car-guide-updated/


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## kimchi_burrito

I've met a few people that refuse to buy a Tesla on the sole reason that they don't like Elon. The same people love Harry Potter movies and hate J.K. Rowling. A bit hypocritical? I think so. I love to kindly remind them that you can separate the art from the artist or you can own things without agreeing with the CEO. They are still reluctant. One of them drives a VW, and I reminded them about the origins of Volkswagen. They didn't want to hear it lol. Some people just thrive on hating things for the sake of inclusivity.


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## sunfarm

Tesla now don't have any competition in North America , but next 2-3 years game will change.


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## garsh

sunfarn said:


> Tesla now don't have any competition in North America , but next 2-3 years game will change.


:rainbow: (that's our "you're very optimistic" symbol for those new to the forum)

I doubt any of the competing charging networks will come close to the size, reliability, convenient locations, and cost of Tesla's Supercharger Network in 10 years, let alone 3.
And I don't see any other manufacturer being able to match Tesla vehicles' efficiency, range, and price in 10 years, let alone 3.
I value those two things SO MUCH that I will continue to go with Tesla despite their spotty customer service, underwhelming delivery experience, and yes, Elon's antics.


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## DocScott

In keeping with the theme of this thread, we named our M3 Franz, not Elon.

My wife often notes that Tesla needs a Gwynne Shotwell. Part of what has made SpaceX work so well is Elon's inspiration combined with Gwynne's steadying hand. Tesla doesn't have anyone playing the latter role.


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## iChris93

garsh said:


> :rainbow: (that's our "you're very optimistic" symbol for those new to the forum)
> 
> I doubt any of the competing charging networks will come close to the size, reliability, convenient locations, and cost of Tesla's Supercharger Network in 10 years, let alone 3.
> And I don't see any other manufacturer being able to match Tesla vehicles' efficiency, range, and price in 10 years, let alone 3.
> I value those two things SO MUCH that I will continue to go with Tesla despite their spotty customer service, underwhelming delivery experience, and yes, Elon's antics.


Still, not acceptable.



iChris93 said:


> And what about the reputation they're setting for themselves? How long will that follow them? They need to adapt before there is real competition.


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## Needsdecaf

garsh said:


> :rainbow: (that's our "you're very optimistic" symbol for those new to the forum)
> 
> I doubt any of the competing charging networks will come close to the size, reliability, convenient locations, and cost of Tesla's Supercharger Network in 10 years, let alone 3.
> And I don't see any other manufacturer being able to match Tesla vehicles' efficiency, range, and price in 10 years, let alone 3.
> I value those two things SO MUCH that I will continue to go with Tesla despite their spotty customer service, underwhelming delivery experience, and yes, Elon's antics.


Definitely disagree with the first one vehemently. The second one.....kinda agree on? LOL.

The EA network is already equal in size to the Supercharger network by number of plugs. It's not as well laid out and certainly not as well operated, but I think that will change as more cars come on line that use it. Look at the rollout from Ford, VW, Audi, GM. The cars are coming. There is WAY too much government and manufacturer push behind all of this for the network to slow it down. They simply can't afford to. So will it be equal to Tesla? Maybe never. But in 3 years it will look vastly different. Biden admin has shown they are very bullish on clean vehicles. The manufacturers will be telling them the charging infrastructure is key.

Tesla certainly has an unsurmountable lead in terms of efficiency. But range? Meh. Sure, the rated range is great, but I for one can never get close on a highway drive. The difference from my M3 Performance vs. a large battery Taycan on a road trip? Honestly, I bet the Taycan would out perform it. Both get similar Wh/mile at a fast highway cruise, and the slight disadvantage to the Porsche is made up in the bigger battery. Vs. a 100 kWh pack S? Maybe it's a bit better. But still, 240-250 REAL WORLD highway miles is enough, and the Taycan does have a total charge time advantage over the Tesla.

Tesla will continue to lead here, but will it matter?


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## garsh

Needsdecaf said:


> Definitely disagree with the first one vehemently...
> 
> The EA network is already equal in size to the Supercharger network by number of plugs. It's not as well laid out and certainly not as well operated...


I think you are actually vehemently agreeing with me on this point. 
It's the combination of _all_ of those factors - size, reliability, convenient locations, and cost - that nobody else is going to be able to meet in 10 years.


> Look at the rollout from Ford, VW, Audi, GM. The cars are coming.


Sure, the _cars_ are coming, but only VW (in the form of EA) is actually putting together a legit fast charging network, and even they are a decade behind Tesla in doing so.


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## Nom

After seeing Tesla do so well with the Super Charger network I’ve been a bit floored how difficult it has been to get competing fast charge networks to work smoothly. Fascinating case study here. 

Any reason to believe the coalitions will stop tripping over themselves? I wonder. Has anything obviously changed that suggests the future will go more smoothly?


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## GDN

Nom said:


> After seeing Tesla do so well with the Super Charger network I've been a bit floored how difficult it has been to get competing fast charge networks to work smoothly. Fascinating case study here.
> 
> Any reason to believe the coalitions will stop tripping over themselves? I wonder. Has anything obviously changed that suggests the future will go more smoothly?


If EA had not been born of the VW emissions scandal it wouldn't exist either. Most manufactures other than Tesla are relying on that network exclusively - or independent third party like Chargepoint, etc, but EA is the only one trying to blanket the US. To say the least without EA everyone would have tried building an EV and then just quit because of lack of adoption due to lack of charging. Don't bet the farm yet on the others for failing for not having a dependable network anyway.


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## Needsdecaf

garsh said:


> I think you are actually vehemently agreeing with me on this point.
> It's the combination of _all_ of those factors - size, reliability, convenient locations, and cost - that nobody else is going to be able to meet in 10 years.
> 
> Sure, the _cars_ are coming, but only VW (in the form of EA) is actually putting together a legit fast charging network, and even they are a decade behind Tesla in doing so.


Nope, I think it'll be ALMOST as easy to charge a CCS charger as it is a Tesla in 3 years or less. By the almost I mean you'll never have true plug and charge on a non-proprietary network, so Tesla will always carry that lead. But as far as convenience, reliability, speed, etc., I think Tesla will be caught. But that's just my hunch, I could be wrong!


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## Nom

GDN said:


> If EA had not been born of the VW emissions scandal it wouldn't exist either. Most manufactures other than Tesla are relying on that network exclusively - or independent third party like Chargepoint, etc, but EA is the only one trying to blanket the US. To say the least without EA everyone would have tried building an EV and then just quit because of lack of adoption due to lack of charging. Don't bet the farm yet on the others for failing for not having a dependable network anyway.


I followed all of this (and appreciated it) .... up to the last sentence.


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