# Wiper AI/ML progress suggests AI/ML is bunk



## Nom (Oct 30, 2018)

Got my M3 in 2018. It is nearly 2023, auto wipers still suck. 

They have such an amazing trove of feedback. Rich data regarding when a user overrides auto and picks a setting (or turns on / off). The amount of friendly machine learning data is huge. And there has been a ton of time that has passed.

I figure Tesla has bright people that are very smart when it comes to AI/ML. Yet, very little progress.

Makes me think the promise of AI/ML is weak. Can’t actually do all that much.

I’ve become pessimistic.


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## Kizzy (Jul 25, 2016)

Auto Highbeams has definitely seen improvement recently.

Auto-wipers mostly work okay for me (there has been definite improvement for me (though I’ll share that last year I upgraded to the FSD computer (AP HW 3.0)).


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## skygraff (Jun 2, 2017)

I've been more and more disappointed with the wipers since they've been locked on when using FSD/AP. Only choice is to switch them to a manual mode or disable AP in order to turn them off. Even then, none of the manual modes have fine adjustments and off (when manually driving, of course) means multiple touches to get them going again.

In heavy rain, they either go into unnecessary high gear or sit dormant until I wake them up. In light rain, they go crazy when there's exterior light sources but, when it's dark and no lights in its eyes, the windshield gets coated before it ever considers a swipe. In light snow with little moisture, they pretty much run on a dry windshield which just makes noise and annoys until I turn them off and don't get me started with the fact that there's no way for the system to know the blades are frozen (sure wish the parking positions had heating elements).

To top it all off, either my windshield or the blades themselves (3rd set of OEMs - just changed in October) leave a film or reveal micro-pockmarks which look like a fogged windshield between swipes; always in front of the driver's eyes like a law Murphy might've written.

Oh, and auto high beams are just awful in an urban environment.


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## Klaus-rf (Mar 6, 2019)

Nom said:


> I figure Tesla has bright people that are very smart when it comes to AI/ML. Yet, very little progress.


 Those bright people will be right back to making AI / ML work as soon as they're done "fixing" twitter. If they don't get fired first for not spending 16+_+ hours a day living at the "office".


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## Ed Woodrick (May 26, 2018)

And to think that they work pretty well for me. 
They don't work as well for my wife. 

I guess the car knows which profile is driving


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## shareef777 (Mar 10, 2019)

Kizzy said:


> Auto Highbeams has definitely seen improvement recently.
> 
> Auto-wipers mostly work okay for me (there has been definite improvement for me (though I’ll share that last year I upgraded to the FSD computer (AP HW 3.0)).


Except it should be perfect and not “mostly ok”. If wipers only got this far after 4+ years what hope is there for FSD!?


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## SalisburySam (Jun 6, 2018)

TL;DR - using vision to automate wiper controls is an interesting alternative approach to a problem that was solved decades ago. Parity with windshield sensor solutions is perhaps possible but requires a priority at Tesla to do so. That ship sailed at a low percentage of parity and drivers are forced to just deal with it. There are many more much higher priority projects that need attending before wiper parity with already-proven technology is again addressed.

Sometimes alternative ways/technologies to attack and solve a problem are terrific, yielding options for consumers and manufacturers. Sometimes it’s a fool’s errand. For decades now, rain-sensing has been essentially solved by a sensor grid in the windshield. That solution has been refined to the point that it is very good, at minimal production costs given huge volumes, with (I’m guessing here) at least three 9’s of fit for purpose and likely even more 9’s.

Then someone at Tesla badly needing a coffee break and a new idea to achieve one of their key performance indicators just prior to their annual review suggested hey, let’s reinvent wiper control sensing with visual cues. Every driver can tell it’s raining and how hard by just looking at the windshield amiright? So no longer a need for sensors in the windshield. Yay! Cost savings for hardware, some expense for software to achieve a level of fit-for-purpose determined by another person with an accounting bent and a bonus of their own to protect. That level was far fewer 9’s, possibly less than one given reports in these fora, but in that key person’s opinion good enough for both the market and the nagging need to keep the cameras clean for robotaxis. As an aside you will of course recall robotaxis were delivered in 2019 as promised. Further benefits (for mfr.) were achieved by removing the user tactile interface (stalks, except the button at the end) with concomitant annoyance (for drivers) who like me view this as a step too far at this stage of removing driver input.

Two issues, one good, one questionable:
1- (the good): how can we reinvent a market-valued vehicle function to reduce costs and maybe even enhance it?
2- (the questionable): since humans use their eyes for most driving input, let’s base our alternate solution on the cameras foregoing well-proven solutions. Oh wait, this is costing tons of development funds, so let’s get it working well enough to meet partial parity with other systems and move on to more important work. Never let perfect get in the way of just good enough to get my bonus.


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## Klaus-rf (Mar 6, 2019)

SalisburySam said:


> Never let perfect get in the way of just good enough to get my bonus.


 The Microsoft theory. Only making software "good enough" to sell some of it. But no more than "good enough".


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## SalisburySam (Jun 6, 2018)

Klaus-rf said:


> The Microsoft theory. Only making software "good enough" to sell some of it. But no more than "good enough".


Actually, good enough should be, umm, good enough. The thorny part is who’s definition of “good enough “ is the overriding one. The CFOs definition will likely differ from a buyer’s.


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## Kizzy (Jul 25, 2016)

SalisburySam said:


> Two issues, one good, one questionable:
> 1- (the good): how can we reinvent a market-valued vehicle function to reduce costs and maybe even enhance it?
> 2- (the questionable): since humans use their eyes for most driving input, let’s base our alternate solution on the cameras foregoing well-proven solutions. Oh wait, this is costing tons of development funds, so let’s get it working well enough to meet partial parity with other systems and move on to more important work. Never let perfect get in the way of just good enough to get my bonus.


A third issue: Deciding to rely on the vision thing before getting a chance to actually develop it well (Auto Highbeams, rain-sensing wipers, TACC, Automatic Emergency Braking, parking obstacle sensing…)


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## Ed Woodrick (May 26, 2018)

shareef777 said:


> Except it should be perfect and not “mostly ok”. If wipers only got this far after 4+ years what hope is there for FSD!?


Read my post, it will NEVER be perfect. Mostly because there are different definitions of "perfect"

When it is starting to mist, I don't wont the wipers to turn on, my wife does.


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## SalisburySam (Jun 6, 2018)

Kizzy said:


> A third issue: Deciding to rely on the vision thing before getting a chance to actually develop it well (Auto Highbeams, rain-sensing wipers, TACC, Automatic Emergency Braking, parking obstacle sensing…)


Agree. Relates back to “good enough.” Don’t need to deliver all those things if I can sell every car I make without doing so. Hey, I know, let’s put that development effort on back burner and go do more fun stuff.


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## ahmadr (May 22, 2017)

SalisburySam said:


> 2- (the questionable): since humans use their eyes for most driving input, let’s base our alternate solution on the cameras foregoing well-proven solutions.


The human eye is placed at a distance from the windshield and can move relative to the windshield. It’s not trivial to detect amount of dirt or droplets on a your glasses without moving the glasses (even by a bit).


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## jazzerguy (Jun 3, 2021)

I have a different issue. My left wiper has never sprayed water on my windshield since I bought the car a year and four months ago


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## Klaus-rf (Mar 6, 2019)

jazzerguy said:


> I have a different issue. My left wiper has never sprayed water on my windshield since I bought the car a year and four months ago


 Same problem here. Make a service visit.


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