# Where is Charging Snake?



## Pinewold (Apr 4, 2016)

How much will the charging Snake cost?
How far will the charging Snake reach?
When will the charing Snake be released?


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## Dan Detweiler (Apr 8, 2016)

I'm lost.
Charging snake? Sorry, I'm new to Tesla.

Dan


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## TrevP (Oct 20, 2015)

@Pinewold is taking about the Tesla "snake charger" prototype.

It's not available for sale. If Tesla indeed does finish development it will be to enable automated charging at certain Supercharging stations. It might become more clear in the future should the summon feature actually allow long-distance recall.


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## Pinewold (Apr 4, 2016)

Thanks for the video! Was hoping there would be a home version of the snake. If you figure 5% of 400k would be willing to pay $2500 for the Snake, that would mean 20000 potential sales that would be $50 million in sales!

If there are any VC folks out there, let's talk!


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## Van Shrider (Apr 3, 2016)

Pinewold said:


> How much will the charging Snake cost?
> How far will the charging Snake reach?
> When will the charing Snake be released?


I'm thinking about the Induction Charging that might be fully perfected by the time we get our cars.





Depends on the efficiency. And if having the receiver equipment would void the warranty or not.


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## Pinewold (Apr 4, 2016)

True but not half as fun! 

To me, you need to get better than 95% to make induction charging not be wasteful. Have seen 90% so they are getting closer. Hopefully they will also come up with an world wide induction charging standard. Not sure a standard will happen in the next two years. 

Agree that driving into the garage and having the car magically charge will be great, just want some hope of having it work everywhere.


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## garsh (Apr 4, 2016)

I don't see induction charging being popular. It costs more and takes longer because of the inefficiencies involved.

I could see it being useful for certain use cases, such as summoning a car from across the country, where it needs to charge itself along an autonomous journey. It would probably be easier to have the car recharge itself inductively than to perfect the charging snake. But to be efficient, the induction coils on the car & at the charging station have to be very close. The tolerances might still be too tight to be practical.


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## Andreas Stephens (Apr 4, 2016)

Van Shrider said:


> I'm thinking about the Induction Charging that might be fully perfected by the time we get our cars.


This is AMAZING! I love the idea - much neater than the "snake"!

I think these kind of concepts ought not be dismissed due to current technological limitations. If we think that we can send people to Mars, surely we can make something like this work!?!


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## TrevP (Oct 20, 2015)

I'm not convinced that inductive charging would be that useful with a Tesla. The efficiency might be improving but the rate of charge cannot be anywhere as high as a direct connection to the charging system and let's not forget Tesla's have massive batteries so the time it would take to charge it…

Can you imagine the magnetic field being induced by one of those things say at 10Kwh or 20Kwh in my garage?? I don't want an MRI scan each time I walk in to get my bike 

Might be OK for cars with smallish batteries like a LEAF or a Volt.


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## Pinewold (Apr 4, 2016)

Time solves all problems, if they can figure out how to make a 200kW induction charger, Tesla supercharging may not be far off.


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## garsh (Apr 4, 2016)

Andreas Stephens said:


> I think these kind of concepts ought not be dismissed due to current technological limitations.


It's been a while since I got my electrical engineering degree, but there are real, physical (as in... physics!) limitations to the efficiency of inductive charging.

We've been doing this sort of inductive coupling for almost 200 years. It's called a transformer. The best efficiency is gained by having the two loops in close proximity and both wrapped around a piece of steel. The best transformers (in the power distribution network) are 98-99% efficient. But we're not going to have a shared steel core between a car and an inductive charger, so it will be less efficient. And we're not going to be able to get the car & charger loops too close together, so it will be less efficient.

Also, do you remember the old wall wart AC adapters? They used to be heavy because they contained small transformers with chunks of steel in them. They're much smaller & lighter nowadays. This is because switching electronics have become more efficient than transformers at this sort of job.


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## Badback (Apr 7, 2016)

What will the inductive receiver do to road clearance? Is it going to stick out a lot? It has been 50+ years since I got my engineering degree, but I know that the losses eventually wind up as heat. 10% losses are going to make your garage a very hot place, this is not good for the batteries, or for your garage.

What is the point of trying to save energy if you are going to throw 10% of it away?


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## thecatdad (Apr 8, 2016)

There are losses in any given system. 10% is not bad, given 100% efficiency is impossible. The conversion of [electrical] power into mechanical work brings with it intrinsic efficiency losses: heat, sound, light, etc. So when you hear your dishwasher run, you don't think about the lost efficiency, but some work that could be done on the dishes is actually being lost by being converted to sound. Similarly, the refrig cycle has plenty of losses, mostly sound and heat. Furnace, water heater, well pump, LED lights...they all exhibit losses. Even the solar panels so prized by many in the Tesla community are only so efficient.

There are many solutions available depending on the layout of your garage. Gable type vents on an outside wall, installing a thermostat in the charger's circuit to shut down at, say, 77 degrees, a cooling system, etc.

I see enough wasted efficiency in all the mechanical systems in my house that 10% or so converted to heat by an inductive charger wouldn't bother me too much.

In my garage, I would install a small fan, some ductwork with a 'T' and dampers. In the winter, I'd direct the heat to the house, in the summer, outside. $50 if you install yourself.


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## PluglessSteve (Apr 21, 2016)

Greetings, disclosures - I work with Plugless and we do not work with Tesla on our wireless EV chargers. We have been selling 3.3kW chargers for more than two years for Chevy Volt, Nissan LEAF and Cadillac ELR - and we began taking reservations on our 7.2kW system for Tesla S owners a couple months ago. That is a true 7.2kW charger which translates to at least 20 miles per hour of charging. This is plenty for the VAST majority of daily driving, overnight charging times. Efficiency numbers being trotted out need context - % efficient as compared to what? 3rd-party testing is also important. For our part, the 3.3kW Plugless system is roughly 7% less efficient than corded level 1 charging and ~12% less efficient than level 2 corded charging - that's in terms of wall to battery OR wall to on-board chargers. We make that claim based on the extensive 3rd-party testing conducted by the U.S. Dept. of Energy's Idaho National Labs - more than 8.700 separate tests. INL requires publishing: https://avt.inl.gov/sites/default/files/pdf/evse/PLUGLESSEvatranStandaloneTestResultsFactSheet.pdf

The 7.2kW system for the Tesla S will go through INL testing as well but our bench tests are showing similar efficiencies. On the Tesla S - the vehicle adapter is invisible (meaning there is no effect on clearance) and weighs ~35 lbs : https://www.pluglesspower.com/shop/reserve-tesla-model-s/


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## Pinewold (Apr 4, 2016)

Badback said:


> What will the inductive receiver do to road clearance? Is it going to stick out a lot? It has been 50+ years since I got my engineering degree, but I know that the losses eventually wind up as heat. 10% losses are going to make your garage a very hot place, this is not good for the batteries, or for your garage.
> 
> What is the point of trying to save energy if you are going to throw 10% of it away?


Agree that 10% is a lot of loss!
If a standard can be defined, ideally tesla would create space in underbody shield, but don't don't see this happening in the next two years


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## PluglessSteve (Apr 21, 2016)

TrevP said:


> Can you imagine the magnetic field being induced by one of those things say at 10Kwh or 20Kwh in my garage?? I don't want an MRI scan each time I walk in to get my bike


 - I meant to comment on this too (again with Plugless - we are not with Tesla) - the same link i sent above has fields graphed. It's largely contained underneath the car and it's highly focused on the vehicle adapter (so if you are worried do not crawl under there during charging...but even if you did you would be fine - or any metal you had on you would trip a "breaker" on the unit). So bottom line, walking around the back of the EV while charging is the same sorts of exposures you might find talking on your phone in a modern household. Also, while on the topic, we've already provided well over 1/2million charge hours across the US and Canada and have not a single issue with cats (this is also a non-issue).


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## Pinewold (Apr 4, 2016)

PluglessSteve said:


> - I meant to comment on this too (again with Plugless - we are not with Tesla) - the same link i sent above has fields graphed. It's largely contained underneath the car and it's highly focused on the vehicle adapter (so if you are worried do not crawl under there during charging...but even if you did you would be fine - or any metal you had on you would trip a "breaker" on the unit). So bottom line, walking around the back of the EV while charging is the same sorts of exposures you might find talking on your phone in a modern household. Also, while on the topic, we've already provided well over 1/2million charge hours across the US and Canada and have not a single issue with cats (this is also a non-issue).


Can you comment on 10% losses, how much of the losses shows up as heat, how of the losses much do you think can be eliminated over time? Are there any standards in progress?


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## PluglessSteve (Apr 21, 2016)

Pinewold said:


> Can you comment on 10% losses


See my comment above - does that answer your question or questions?



Pinewold said:


> how much of the losses shows up as heat, how of the losses much do you think can be eliminated over time?


Almost entirely as heat and remember two things 1. this is dissipated over time and 2. there are many, varied and quite mature technologies to manage heat (thanks computers!)

Improvements in efficiency - Physics apply - as the many much more qualified people above have described. Note: announcements of higher power Wireless EV Chargers need more context - as compared to what? (for example, does the number assume direct to battery charging). Then there are costs of suppling electrical to the home - assuming home charging (the high power WEVC of press releases seems to us to be 100% a public charging play).



Pinewold said:


> Are there any standards in progress?


Yes, we have participated in the SAE committee tasked with the WEVC standards (j2954) - they've been at it for sometime and even when they are announced, there is a long time before they make it into series production (onto cars)....there is also the possibility of competing standards. So the two open questions: 1. will there be a standard by the time the 3 comes out and 2. will Tesla be on board (again, we do not work with Tesla). Those are two VERY open questions as far as we can see.


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## garsh (Apr 4, 2016)

PluglessSteve said:


> For our part, the 3.3kW Plugless system is... ~12% less efficient than level 2 corded charging - that's in terms of wall to battery OR wall to on-board chargers.


Thanks for the data. That seems pretty good considering the big air gap. Do you know how precise you need to be when parking the vehicle in order to see these efficiency levels?


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## PluglessSteve (Apr 21, 2016)

garsh said:


> Thanks for the data. That seems pretty good considering the big air gap. Do you know how precise you need to be when parking the vehicle in order to see these efficiency levels?


The data sheet has that info (interestingly the best efficiency is slightly off-center) - you can be off center 4-6" in all directions and still be aligned. As I understand the testing sheets, those are the aggregate of multiple tests so our efficiency claims are what to expect whatever your coupled alignment is. And yes it is VERY good - we very much look forward to competition to enter the market and show similar 3rd-party data - we're confident we'll do quite well.


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## Pinewold (Apr 4, 2016)

PluglessSteve said:


> See my comment above - does that answer your question or questions?
> 
> Almost entirely as heat and remember two things 1. this is dissipated over time and 2. there are many, varied and quite mature technologies to manage heat (thanks computers!)
> 
> ...


Thanks for all the info!


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## teslaliving (Apr 2, 2016)

The snake makes no sense and I don't think it will see the light of day for real. Its complex, it would be very expensive etc. The wireless chargers you park over are more likely (and exist now, theres even a 3rd party doing it for the Model S) but they're expensive and not very efficient.

Personally, after 2 years of driving my S and charging daily, plugging it in every night is not an issue for me at all.

It would be nice if Tesla FINALLY added an alert you could schedule if you weren't plugged in by a certain time so you didnt have an AM surprise but I wrote my own in the mean time (open source here: https://github.com/the-mace/evtools) so its not a big deal.

You need to plug in your iPhones etc every night. Why hasn't Apple solved that problem? Because its really not a big deal.


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## Andreas Stephens (Apr 4, 2016)

teslaliving said:


> The snake makes no sense and I don't think it will see the light of day for real. Its complex, it would be very expensive etc. The wireless chargers you park over are more likely (and exist now, theres even a 3rd party doing it for the Model S) but they're expensive and not very efficient.
> 
> Personally, after 2 years of driving my S and charging daily, plugging it in every night is not an issue for me at all.
> 
> ...


Not a big deal, but still an opportunity for new product development. My son's LG phone uses an induction charger and so does our electric toothbrush. Sometimes - even Apple follows the market rather than leading it. I too find it surprising that Tesla has not implemented the alarm functionality you mention in your post, but I am also sure that they will eventually get there.

Keep in mind that "new technology" typically takes decades to mature.

While EVs have been around for a long long time, it was essentially a technology that has been laid dormant until "reawakening" again only very recently.

I am sure that there are entire new ecosystems of products and functionalities that will be developed for EVs over time (as we are now witnessing for smartphones). We are now only at the very beginning of this development.

Wireless or "snake" charging might not be for everyone, but for all the different modes of charging there will be a cohort of people who prefer that method over all the other alternatives or a mixture depending on what is most convenient in a particular context.

Efficiency is critically important and in a resource constrained world ever more so, but there will always be people willing to trade off some efficiency for convenience.

As our Prime Minister Malcolm Turnbull likes to say: "We live the the most exciting time..."


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## Daniel Davis (Apr 19, 2016)

I think charge snake would be great for charging in bad weather like rain, snow cold.


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## Pinewold (Apr 4, 2016)

I agree that original snake is complicated, believe that 3-4 servo motors are all that is required if done right. Agree it is not a big deal to plug in, but I met a lot of engineers in the Model 3 line that would love that little toy! Induction charging would be good if they can get to 95% efficient.


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## garsh (Apr 4, 2016)

If we ever want to have a vehicle drive cross-country autonomously, then we'll need a charging solution that doesn't require a human to plug the car in.


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## AEDennis (Apr 10, 2016)

Doesn't look like @PluglessSteve likes to toot his own horn...

Here's an article released today for the Plugless power at 7.2kW.


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## AZ Desert Driver (May 2, 2016)

PluglessSteve said:


> Greetings, disclosures - I work with Plugless and we do not work with Tesla on our wireless EV chargers. We have been selling 3.3kW chargers for more than two years for Chevy Volt, Nissan LEAF and Cadillac ELR - and we began taking reservations on our 7.2kW system for Tesla S owners a couple months ago. That is a true 7.2kW charger which translates to at least 20 miles per hour of charging. This is plenty for the VAST majority of daily driving, overnight charging times. Efficiency numbers being trotted out need context - % efficient as compared to what? 3rd-party testing is also important. For our part, the 3.3kW Plugless system is roughly 7% less efficient than corded level 1 charging and ~12% less efficient than level 2 corded charging - that's in terms of wall to battery OR wall to on-board chargers. We make that claim based on the extensive 3rd-party testing conducted by the U.S. Dept. of Energy's Idaho National Labs - more than 8.700 separate tests. INL requires publishing: https://avt.inl.gov/sites/default/files/pdf/evse/PLUGLESSEvatranStandaloneTestResultsFactSheet.pdf
> 
> The 7.2kW system for the Tesla S will go through INL testing as well but our bench tests are showing similar efficiencies. On the Tesla S - the vehicle adapter is invisible (meaning there is no effect on clearance) and weighs ~35 lbs : https://www.pluglesspower.com/shop/reserve-tesla-model-s/


Hello Plugless Steve - As I understand the current product, it is a fixed plate. If you put that plate on the end of a spatula, and lifted the spatula to connect with a plate on the bottom of the car (magnetic couple?) then this nasty air-gap inefficiency topic goes away. Seems like you are close to a finished product, but these damn physics keep biting you. [no charge for the spatula idea]


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## TrevP (Oct 20, 2015)

Given all the hints about Autopilot going to level 3 or even level 4 and Elon dropping a huge hint about the second reveal happening towards the end of this year, perhaps we might see the snake again when their intentions are finally revealed on Model 3. 

His comment about the snake being used to automatically plug in to charge the car at the D event and summoning cars from the other side of the country a few months ago combined with "super next level" stuff this week lends me to think there's a bigger picture here that we've not seen yet.


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## Pinewold (Apr 4, 2016)

Snake and plugless both would be fine for me, if the cost was just a bit more reasonable.


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## Red Sage (Dec 4, 2016)

Induction charging would be fine if it could be perfected as a sort of area effect ambient system that still allowed a high rate of charge. I see it as something best deployed currently for either valet parking areas or taxi cab waiting queues. But yeah, the Charging Snake would be best deployed at Superchargers for cross-country runs.


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## Pinewold (Apr 4, 2016)

Red Sage said:


> Induction charging would be fine if it could be perfected as a sort of area effect ambient system that still allowed a high rate of charge. I see it as something best deployed currently for either valet parking areas or taxi cab waiting queues. But yeah, the Charging Snake would be best deployed at Superchargers for cross-country runs.


Given, we are looking at Level 5 autonomous driving and a super charger V3 that may be 500kWh or more, the charging snake is the only option that can handle the huge electric current and charge a vehicle without the owner plugging in.


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## TrevP (Oct 20, 2015)

Tesla said in the latest post on the changes to the Supercharger program that they envision cars that will automatically unplug when charging is finished. That can only be accomplished with the charging snake.


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## MelindaV (Apr 2, 2016)

TrevP said:


> That can only be accomplished with the charging snake.


Knowing how EM thinks, I'd not put a limit on what we've already seen as the only option.


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## JMON (Aug 21, 2016)

TrevP said:


> Tesla said in the latest post on the changes to the Supercharger program that they envision cars that will automatically unplug when charging is finished. That can only be accomplished with the charging snake.


I think we need to renew this thread. With a million Tesla Robo-taxi's on the way - where/how will they charge ?


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1126155323553796096


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## M3OC Rules (Nov 18, 2016)

JMON said:


> I think we need to renew this thread. With a million Tesla Robo-taxi's on the way - where/how will they charge ?


If people are going to be part of the Tesla network it's going to be a big pain in the butt to manage the state of charge or be limited in how much it can be used. Even if you have access to charging at work and/or home you would still need to unplug it before the car could go pick someone up and then plug it back in when they are done. Otherwise, you'll be limited in how much it can be used. I wouldn't want to go unplug the car at 1 AM so it can drive someone home from the bar and then go back and plug it back in at 2 AM. I also wouldn't want to be at a very low charge for my commute home every day. Maybe a couple rides a day is significant? You also have to factor in driving to where the rides are needed. Currently, it's probably more in urban areas, but if you park in those areas you're likely in a ramp which you can't leave and come back to. It seemed like Tesla had the attitude of "Let's solve this impossible problem first and then we can work on the small stuff." But I think not having some sort of automated charging is going to be a significant limitation to the Tesla network.


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## kort6776 (Apr 30, 2019)

Pinewold said:


> How much will the charging Snake cost?
> How far will the charging Snake reach?
> When will the charing Snake be released?


charge snake is in the bit bin of clever ideas that are not able to work in the real world. I don't think there is any current move to bringing this concept to fruition


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## kort6776 (Apr 30, 2019)

JMON said:


> I think we need to renew this thread. With a million Tesla Robo-taxi's on the way - where/how will they charge ?


the flaw in your question is the reality that there is not going to be any robo taxis on the way anytime soon.


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## JMON (Aug 21, 2016)

kort6776 said:


> the flaw in your question is the reality that there is not going to be any robo taxis on the way anytime soon.


So to be clear - You're saying Elon is *wrong* about Tesla's claim they'll have a million Robo-Taxis (if not next year - then in the years to come) ?


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## kort6776 (Apr 30, 2019)

JMON said:


> So to be clear - You're saying Elon is *wrong* about Tesla's claim they'll have a million Robo-Taxis (if not next year - then in the years to come) ?


really? I'm still waiting for the fully autonomous cross country trip elon promised when AP 1 was rolled out. 
haven't you ever heard of elon time?


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## JWardell (May 9, 2016)

This question was asked at the recent investor automation event, Elon just shrugged it off as a simple problem to solve


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## M3OC Rules (Nov 18, 2016)

JWardell said:


> This question was asked at the recent investor automation event, Elon just shrugged it off as a simple problem to solve


That's right but just making a snake charger is not problem solved. How many people would be able to have a personal snake charger given cost and physical requirements? Would it just be at Superchargers because then you're looking at a lot of miles driving to and from Superchargers? And how long will it take to upgrade the superchargers? I guess having the ability to move cars from a supercharger spot could help alleviate supercharger congestion but so does charging idle fees.

Tesla will probably have some dispatch place where they hold and charge the cars operated by a crew of people who also clean, maintain, and maybe service the vehicles. Owners will be on their own.


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## garsh (Apr 4, 2016)

M3OC Rules said:


> Would it just be at Superchargers


Yes. If the car's making money for you, you're not going to wait 8 hours for it to charge up on an L2 charger.


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## M3OC Rules (Nov 18, 2016)

garsh said:


> Yes. If the car's making money for you, you're not going to wait 8 hours for it to charge up on an L2 charger.


Ultimately yes but where I'm at we have 1 supercharger for an area of 3.6 million people. Seems like a lot of infrastructure would be needed.


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