# Model 3 HVAC system patent



## TrevP (Oct 20, 2015)

Really neat details just came out. Internally Tesla calls this "AirWave"

https://www.google.ca/patents/US201...ved=0ahUKEwil6MeBga_WAhUK02MKHbQYDckQ6AEIJjAA






































UPDATE: Here's the inventor's Linkedin profile:

https://www.linkedin.com/in/giacomo-castiglioni-50885725/


----------



## SoFlaModel3 (Apr 15, 2017)

Very cool and to your tweet... no way this isn’t on S/X soon!


----------



## JWardell (May 9, 2016)

Interestingly, clicking the google link to the patent, the images are all blocked. Thanks for posting them. Saved to read through the whole thing later.

I hypthesized this worked much like the Dyson "bladeless" fans air multiplier system. It seems similar.


----------



## Skione65 (Apr 4, 2016)

JWardell said:


> Interestingly, clicking the google link to the patent, the images are all blocked. Thanks for posting them. Saved to read through the whole thing later.
> 
> I hypthesized this worked much like the Dyson "bladeless" fans air multiplier system. It seems similar.


This all came out already...think I read it on [email protected] check it out there...the patent info and all images were readable there.

Ski


----------



## JWardell (May 9, 2016)

It all shows correctly on google's "new" patent site.

https://patents.google.com/patent/US20170253107A1/en

I read through it all, and aside from being very repetitive, it basically lays out ideas for first a "high aspect ratio" vent...meaning a very wide and not very tall slot; a secondary slot below that when combined can deflect it; and varying the ratio of air speed can change the angle of deflection.

I believe there are three separate examples of systems, so one might be the model 3, the others might be upcoming models, but it's tough to tell. Or the others could just be simplified models for example.


----------



## Brett (Aug 1, 2017)

Can anyone tell from the patent if the air speed coming out of the secondary vent is controlled by damper or by a varying a fan speed? 

I am really hoping for an oscillate setting sometime down the road. I can believe that Tesla would not want to increase the wear (and shorten the lifetime) of the horizontal deflection fins by making them oscillate (and therefore operate continuously) but if the vertical direction is just controlled by a fan speed then that might be oscillate-able without a maintenance impact. Vertical only oscillation would be better then no oscillation.


----------



## JWardell (May 9, 2016)

Brett said:


> Can anyone tell from the patent if the air speed coming out of the secondary vent is controlled by damper or by a varying a fan speed?
> 
> I am really hoping for an oscillate setting sometime down the road. I can believe that Tesla would not want to increase the wear (and shorten the lifetime) of the horizontal deflection fins by making them oscillate (and therefore operate continuously) but if the vertical direction is just controlled by a fan speed then that might be oscillate-able without a maintenance impact. Vertical only oscillation would be better then no oscillation.


The patent shows a few different solutions, but in every case, the whole system has just one fan. Dampers or valves are used to control flow volume through the secondary lower vent. There's no reason why they can't have automatic oscillation in the vertical and horizontal directions as everything is controlled by the computer. Assuming of course they chose hardware that is designed for continuous use.


----------



## Brett (Aug 1, 2017)

Thanks @JWardell that's what I was afraid of.

My assumption is that they won't have chosen hardware (servos, etc) meant for continuous use and they will be hesitant to implement any feature that might add to repairs and warranty claims. I'm still hoping though.


----------



## JWardell (May 9, 2016)

Remember Tesla is smarter than they appear to be at any given moment, and I think they learned about durability issues on early Model Ses.


----------



## Guest (Sep 21, 2017)

There are servo-motors (flap-moving mechanisms) on the market that are extremely reliable. 
I have a lot of experience with some BMW-s that have actuators that are constantly doing 
something while vehicle is being used. Out of hundreds and hundreds of vehicles I've worked on
not a single servo has ever failed. And these vehicles were produced between 1996-2004 (there 
were some unreliable at 2004-2006). But what can fail is the flap itself. It doesn't literally fail, it starts to
squeak due to loss of lubricant or dust accumulation on surfaces, that should be clean.

Though it appears that complexity of M3 system is on par with BMW 3-series premium HVAC system,
with (likely) additional function of "driver only". Therefore reliability should be average.

Air speed is controlled automatically with pretty complex maps for fan speed and flaps.
It is likely (update later?) that air speed (for at least face vents) will be adjustable separately. Otherwise
clicking on the air directions will result in "flap open" position. And depending on fan speed, that might be
too much for face or too little for feet.

It's sad that there is no full schematic for the whole M3 air distribution available.
I would love to rate the efficiency.


----------



## greatwiseone (Sep 12, 2017)

Just a patent application that's been published. No patent has actually granted yet.


----------



## NRG4All (Mar 28, 2017)

TrevP said:


> Really neat details just came out. Internally Tesla calls this "AirWave"
> 
> https://www.google.ca/patents/US201...ved=0ahUKEwil6MeBga_WAhUK02MKHbQYDckQ6AEIJjAA
> 
> ...


I am curious about how the M3 will somehow be using the motor as it heat source. Does this mean no resistance coils or heat pump involved? Maybe someone has already posted an answer and I just need to find it.


----------



## Guest (Sep 22, 2017)

Motor will be used to heat the coolant loop. Tesla doesn't use coolant to heat the cabin.
Cabin is heated by PTC element (not exactly resistance coil, but something similar).
Tesla still does not support heat pump idea.

Well, Model S/X can use drivetrain heat to warm the battery. Though there is not a lot of heat generated if driven normally. 
Now we know, that Model 3 can just energize drivetrain (with no rotation) and generate as much heat as it wants.
Imagine two coils inside the motor trying to spin it in opposite directions. Nothing happens. Motor is stuck, and all
energy used to turn it will end up as heat. Which will immediately be extracted by coolant. And dumped into battery.


----------



## KarenRei (Jul 27, 2017)

I'm disappointed by this. I had been under the impression that the plan was to use multiple fans rather than servos. The servo approach doesn't look nearly as graceful.


----------



## Guest (Sep 23, 2017)

Fan takes at least 100x more room than a servo. Fan also needs more ducting around it.


----------



## KarenRei (Jul 27, 2017)

arnis said:


> Fan takes at least 100x more room than a servo. Fan also needs more ducting around it.


There's a large amount of ducting regardless; fans take up no more space if they sit inside a duct. Fans are super-cheap commodity items. Smaller ones (aka, to aim the main stream, if that's the design chosen) don't require controllers; you can control them directly from a motherboard. While a cheapo fan may eventually suffer bearing wear, a quality fan, pushing filtered air, should be able to operate basically forever. And you have to provide the fan power either way, whether it's one large fan, or any combination of fans.


----------



## Guest (Sep 23, 2017)

These axial fans don't cut it.








Fan on this picture is 210 times less powerful than average vehicle will use.
HVAC design is actually very complicated.
Also fans can't stop air from flowing through them.
Very simple Nissan Leaf heater box








Not possible to not blow without flaps. Maybe if fans would be bi-directional. That would funny.


----------



## KarenRei (Jul 27, 2017)

arnis said:


> These axial fans don't cut it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


1) The design is for a powerful main stream and a weak side stream to redirect the main stream by creating either a high or low pressure zone beside it; it doesn't need a large volume flow rate for the side stream.

2) You can't use a "single" anything (fans, actuated vanes, etc - whatever design approach you choose) when you're talking two zones with split X-Y aiming of airstreams. You're talking multiple. Probably 8.


----------



## Michael Russo (Oct 15, 2016)

You folks all amaze me. In a good sense, truly... 

This simple man is really only only looking at _effectiveness_ and _*reliability*_... without giving a split second of thought to 'what's in the black box'... both criteria by the way have never made me lose a minute of sleep in my many Beemers over the past decade...


----------



## Guest (Sep 24, 2017)

KarenRei said:


> weak side stream


The secondary air stream must be at around the same pressure as the main stream to be able to deflect the main stream.
We are talking aerodynamics:innocent:

Also fan's can't stop airflow.


----------



## KarenRei (Jul 27, 2017)

arnis said:


> The secondary air stream must be at around the same pressure as the main stream to be able to deflect the main stream.
> We are talking aerodynamics:innocent:
> 
> Also fan's can't stop airflow.


Lol. You're trying to lecture about aerodynamics to someone who wrote a genetic algorithm evolved rocket engine simulator built atop OpenFOAM.

No, it doesn't work like that. First, you're confusing pressures and mass flow rates; the static pressures will be roughly similar between the small fans and the primary blower, but the mass flow rates will be very different. Secondly, with proper duct shaping, small differences in airflow in certain areas can make a big difference in the resultant airflow. For example, take boundary layer suction. The amount of air being removed from the boundary layer of the wing is miniscule compared to the flow rate over the wing but the consequences for lift can be very significant, particularly in near-stall conditions.

It is *very much possible* to design an airflow such that its path balances on a knife's edge, and use a far smaller stream to have large effects on the primary stream.


----------



## Guest (Sep 24, 2017)

Hm. What is the point of multiple fan solution? And are we talking ONLY about face vents or the whole HVAC?
There are around 8 different air exit ducts, with different temperatures/selectable direction.

Also. How do you adjust considerably mass flow with a help of an axial fan that is in the order of magnitude less powerful
(compared to main blower)?


----------



## Dan Detweiler (Apr 8, 2016)

Over on the Tesla Model 3 Owners Club Facebook page a Bryan MacKenzie posted that his Tesla Service Manager just got his Model 3 and brought it by to let him look at it and ride in it. He specifically stated that the AC system in the Model 3 was "jaw dropping" and "beyond robust". He also stated that he was 6'4" and with the driver's seat set for him there was plenty of room in the back for him to sit comfortably. I think we are going to be just fine on both counts!

Can't wait!

Dan


----------



## KarenRei (Jul 27, 2017)

arnis said:


> Hm. What is the point of multiple fan solution?


As was stated from the beginning : fans are cheaper and more reliable than servos, and don't require a separate controller.



> And are we talking ONLY about face vents or the whole HVAC?
> There are around 8 different air exit ducts


As was also previously stated.



> Also. How do you adjust considerably mass flow with a help of an axial fan that is in the order of magnitude less powerful (compared to main blower)?


Please read literally the last post by me in this thread :Þ


----------



## Juergen (Jan 22, 2017)

For my opinion, Tesla use one big fan for a noise reason. Bigger fans have a lower rpm then small ones. If you adjust the direction of the airflow, you newer (almost) change it’s again. If you use a lot of small fans, they must run all the time to steer the airflow. So I think Tesla’s solution is that what’s a buyer from a Model 3 expect.


----------



## Guest (Sep 24, 2017)

Noise is not a problem in case of low powered fan. Cheap fans are more prone to failure compared to servos. 
Especially fans that are in a fluctuating temperature environment (from -20C to 90C in a minute)
I've dealt with computers. And fan failure is happening. Like I said, servo can be very reliable.
Servos do not require separate controller. Also they do not require individual wiring.
They can all be on one three-wire cable connected parallelly.

Price is not a problem. Servo is smaller than fan and flaps can be designed as requires. fan can not.

I'm sure low power fans will not be able to adjust airflow to 3-4 blowing direction between 0-100% range.
It will NOT work without flaps. I'm absolutely sure. I'm talking about the whole HVAC, not only face.
Also adjusting horizontal direction with 2/4 fans through very wide narrow slit. Seems not doable.
Flow will not curve 40-45 degrees to both sides at whole wide range of airflow and pressure (main fan).

And Tesla's solution has 2 servos for vertical adjustment and 4 servos for adjustable face vents for both occupants.
I would strip it down to 2 servos for vertical and 2 for horizontal (no air split possibility per seat).



Juergen said:


> If you adjust the direction of the airflow, you newer (almost) change it's again.


Automatic climate control can and will adjust airflow every few seconds at 1-2% increments (so it is not noticeable to occupants).
Only in AUTO mode of course. There is like a 20-30 variables that are used in the AUTO-mode algorithm.


----------



## KarenRei (Jul 27, 2017)

arnis said:


> I've dealt with computers.


Who hasn't? I built my first homemade computer when I was a teenager with parts purchased from a late night scrap meet.  (ah, how I loved that dual processor P-Pro board!) That said, an automaker isn't exactly going to be purchasing fans made in a random Chinese factory from an anonymous seller on eBay. A good fan will not fail unless it has a QA problem or gets clogged with debris (which having it past a filter prevents).



> Servos do not require separate controller.


What servos can you plug directly into a motherboard?



> Price is not a problem.


Of course price is an issue, we're talking about a company trying to make an electric car affordable and still get a 25% profit margin on it. Every part matters.



> It will NOT work without flaps. I'm absolutely sure.


And I'm telling you, _it can and does_.



> Flow will not curve 40-45 degrees to both sides at whole wide range of airflow and pressure (main fan).


First off, we're not talking about "40-45 degrees to both sides" for the application on hand; sketch it out, it's a lot lower than that. Secondly, you can readily curve an airstream _many times that much_ via flow attachment. It's called the Coanda effect, look it up; it sees a lot of real-world uses. You can direct a flow _all the way around a surface_ if you need to. Laminar flow likes to "stick" to smooth surfaces; it's a consequence of Bernoulli's principle. A high speed jet of air has reduced pressure, which draws in the surrounding air. When there's a solid object on one side, no air is drawn in from that side, so the air on the open side provides a net force in the direction of the surface.

*You need to get out of thinking of general Newtonian mechanics as if it's a simple rigid two-body collision problem.* Fluid dynamics is a lot more complicated than that.

A laminar flow will stay adhered to a surface until a key angle related to the properties of the flow and the surface, where it detaches atop a turbulent layer underneath. While there are many ways in which a small amount of air can affect the detachment point, a particularly sensitive aspect is the boundary layer. A small amount of suction (orders of magnitude less than the primary flow) removes the boundary layer and brings the subsequent, more laminar layer to the surface to replace it, extending the time before the flow detaches, Consequently, ejection of turbulent air into the boundary layer can cause immediate detachment of the flow. And there's an infinite gradient of possibilities between those two extremes.

The amount to which a flow adheres is so sensitive that you can create _oscillators_, which waver back and forth _without any added energy input required at all_:










Flow attachment shouldn't be an unusual concept to anyone who cares about automotive aerodynamics. Notice how cars taper? That's because they're trying to keep the flow attached for as long as possible, to minimize the size of the low pressure turbulent wake behind the car (higher pressure in the front than the rear = force = drag).










Note: I just ran into that graphic while trying to find a good image to demonstrate the concept, but I love it because it also greatly shows something I've been trying to explain to people who refuse to understand why aero wheels matter: _wheels are an aerodynamic disaster zone_.


----------



## Guest (Sep 25, 2017)

First picture of simulation is a good demonstration, but air that exits into the cabin is at most 10m/s. And it has to work at 2m/s.
Also laminar flow sticking to what surface? There is nothing to stick to. We can't make a huge cone. It should look discreet.

Ball-bearing fans do not usually fail but are not quiet then.
Well BMW uses servos that have power pins and instruction bus pin. Starting from year 1995.


----------



## KarenRei (Jul 27, 2017)

arnis said:


> First picture of simulation is a good demonstration, but air that exits into the cabin is at most 10m/s.


Completely irrelevant. Designs can be created for any flow velocity.



> Also laminar flow sticking to what surface?


An internal ducting foil leading up to the exterior surface, with the degree of detachment determining the angle.

I'm not sure what you're not understanding about that.



> Ball-bearing fans do not usually fail but are not quiet then.


Yes, if you get your fans from random Chinese factories from anonymous sellers on ebay.

It's about proper design and QA. If you have a reliable bearing, and you don't put it in an environment where it will get clogged with dust, your fan will be reliable - because they really are that simple.



> Well BMW uses servos that have power pins and instruction bus pin


What bus are you talking about? CAN? And link to a specific servo please. We cannot do specific comparisons against generic concepts.

That said, if it has bus pins, then it has a _built-in controller_. Fans have _no controllers at all_. Rotation speed is either controlled by varying voltage or by pulsing a fixed voltage at a varying rate.


----------



## Guest (Sep 25, 2017)

What's wrong with having microchip on a device?

Bus more simpler than CAN.
M-bus on this picture









One random BMW flap servo

*64 11 6 935 442*​









You say that design can can can do everything BUT due to obscure reasons billion vehicles on our roads do not, incl Tesla.

What I do not understand is how do you stop that "small" directing airflow from flowing if we have lots of pressure from main blower and nothing in between main blower and a weak secondary fan(s)?
I've not seen a single single sketch. I think it is reasonable not to understand lots of things.
If you made the first simulation picture, then reduce max air velocity to 5m/s and show the effect again.
Also I want to see oscillation cycle time.


----------



## KarenRei (Jul 27, 2017)

> One random BMW flap servo


Which backs up my primary point, in that it _costs $45 USD_. BMW might get it in bulk for $20-30. A company like Tesla can get fans with good bearings in bulk for literally an order of magnitude less than that.



> You say that design can can can do everything BUT due to obscure reasons billion vehicles on our roads do not, incl Tesla.


The overwhelming majority of those billions of vehicles _don't use actuated vanes to replace manual vents, either_.


----------



## Dan Detweiler (Apr 8, 2016)

I think you two need to get a room! LOL!

While this all looks really interesting, I think you guys are maybe speaking Swahili. I think for most of us the question is "does the system work" and the answer seems to be an emphatic yes. By all means though, continue demonstrating to the rest of us how dumb we are!  LOL!!!

Dan


----------



## Guest (Sep 26, 2017)

45 USD is just a number that doesn't represent anything.
I can go to my dealer and get it 20% cheaper, from the dealer, if I buy one.
Raw material and work labour is around a third. Bulk price drops somewhere there.

No you can't get reliable quiet fans with bearings way cheaper. Just an assumption. (aka show me)

actuated vane or actuated flap - doesn't really matter. The fact that actuated flaps are reliable includes reliability of actuated vanes.


----------



## garsh (Apr 4, 2016)

Ok, this discussion is becoming unfriendly. Please put an end to it.

I'm removing the "unnecessary" parts of the posts.


----------

