# Superchargers opening up to other EVs later this year



## iChris93 (Feb 3, 2017)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1417593502351826946


----------



## JWardell (May 9, 2016)

Prepare for superchargers full of slow-charging hybrids!


----------



## iChris93 (Feb 3, 2017)

JWardell said:


> Prepare for superchargers full of slow-charging hybrids!


----------



## FRC (Aug 4, 2018)

Apply Elontime to that statement, and supercharger sharing could be decades away...


----------



## Bigriver (Jan 26, 2018)

And Elon also said this:








Before the Twitter storm on this topic, I think I had heard Tesla would be opening up the SC network in Europe. So I don't think that US or Canada is necessarily in the "this year" category.


----------



## Bigriver (Jan 26, 2018)

I do not expect that Tesla is doing this as charity work; I expect the manufacturers it is opened too will pay a notable price. While I do see Tesla intent on their mission statement to accelerate the world’s transition to sustainable energy, they also seem focused on making money while they do it.


----------



## SoFlaModel3 (Apr 15, 2017)

One can only hope there are minimum standards that a car needs to have to supercharge and that the money Tesla makes on this just builds even more chargers. 

I have concerns as other EVs reach volume.


----------



## iChris93 (Feb 3, 2017)

Bigriver said:


> they also seem focused on making money while they do it.


Required for a publicly traded company.


----------



## JasonF (Oct 26, 2018)

JWardell said:


> Prepare for superchargers full of slow-charging hybrids!


Depends where it's located. If it's in prime parking spaces, all the spots will be full of vehicles that barely qualify as plug-in hybrids, just like at Disney World and the malls. Seaworld is awesome for putting their charging spaces at the _end_ of the parking lot.



Bigriver said:


> I do not expect that Tesla is doing this as charity work; I expect the manufacturers it is opened too will pay a notable price. While I do see Tesla intent on their mission statement to accelerate the world's transition to sustainable energy, they also seem focused on making money while they do it.


I think they'll pay a fee for access to the Supercharger network, but I think it will be fair (just enough to help maintain them), as will be the rate the non-Tesla customers pay. The Superchargers are supposed to be a big part of Elon Musk's mission to spread EV's to the masses. I hope Ford is smart enough to be right at the front of the line, especially with the F-150 Lightning coming out, since the charging network they licensed to for the Mach-E really sucks.


----------



## iChris93 (Feb 3, 2017)

JasonF said:


> I hope Ford is smart enough to be right at the front of the line, especially with the F-150 Lightning coming out


That would make it a lot more appealing.


----------



## StevieC (Jun 1, 2021)

One of the main reasons I bought a Tesla was because of the Supercharger network. I’m gonna be pretty pissed if I have to wait in line for a charger because other brands are tying them up.


----------



## garsh (Apr 4, 2016)

StevieC said:


> One of the main reasons I bought a Tesla was because of the Supercharger network. I'm gonna be pretty pissed if I have to wait in line for a charger because other brands are tying them up.


I don't think we'll have to worry about plugin hybrids at all - none of them can take a high-voltage DC input, only Level-2 AC AFAIK.

As for other EVs, nobody but Tesla sells enough EVs for it to matter. Model 3 and Y sales dwarf any other EV sales.


----------



## StevieC (Jun 1, 2021)

There’s that old saying, it may be only .08%, but when it happens to you, it’s 100%.


----------



## bwilson4web (Mar 4, 2019)

garsh said:


> I don't think we'll have to worry about plugin hybrids at all - none of them can take a high-voltage DC input, only Level-2 AC AFAIK.


Except Bob's 2014 BMW i3-REx ... of course semantics might claim it is an EV with a Range Extender Engine. Regardless, the BMW works better than the 2017 Prius Prime we traded in for the 2019 Std Rng Plus Model 3. Just peak charging rate is 50 kW.

Bob Wilson


----------



## NR4P (Jul 14, 2018)

Supercharger cables are very short and designed to go right into the drivers side rear port. Check out many other cars where their charging ports are vs where the SuperChargers cable stands are located. Long adapter cables will be needed in N. America. Now I see why Europe is likely first since there is some common charge port there. But cable length will be an issue and at least extension options will be cheaper than the $500+ for adaptors.


----------



## Bigriver (Jan 26, 2018)

StevieC said:


> One of the main reasons I bought a Tesla was because of the Supercharger network. I'm gonna be pretty pissed if I have to wait in line for a charger because other brands are tying them up.


The value of the Supercharging network is tremendous. I understand hoping they continue to build it out so that charging is always available without waiting in line. I think this move will help with that.

Personally I have no concern about who is charging or waiting with me. Currently I don't care what mix of Tesla S/3/X/Y is there. I can't imagine being bothered if a Ford, Gm, Porsche, VW, Audi, Volvo, etc. is next to me. I never cared while filling up an ICE at the gas station, and I don't care while charging my EV. I think it will be more and more exciting as Tesla comes to dominate the charging infrastructure for all EVs.


----------



## JasonF (Oct 26, 2018)

NR4P said:


> Supercharger cables are very short and designed to go right into the drivers side rear port. Check out many other cars where their charging ports are vs where the SuperChargers cable stands are located. Long adapter cables will be needed in N. America. Now I see why Europe is likely first since there is some common charge port there. But cable length will be an issue and at least extension options will be cheaper than the $500+ for adaptors.


If U.S. Superchargers support other vehicles, they're going to have to add J-1772+ DC fast charge plugs anyway, they can add longer cords while they're at it.


----------



## JasonF (Oct 26, 2018)

garsh said:


> As for other EVs, nobody but Tesla sells enough EVs for it to matter. Model 3 and Y sales dwarf any other EV sales.


(Sorry about the double reply, the software wouldn't let me insert quotes from 2 posts)

This week I read about the Chevrolet Bolt recall for batteries. I think it ended up being 52,000 cars _total_. Tesla sold more than 3 times that in the graph above, and that's only 2020. That's what I've come to expect though, because GM still has the Bolt positioned only as a compliance car to offset the low EPA mileage of all of their large SUV's. I suspect the reason why they have that 2030 date for converting over to electric isn't because of development time (especially since Ford has already brought out 2 models), but the timeline their consultants came up with for the EV trend to fade away so they don't have to make anything but a token effort.


----------



## iChris93 (Feb 3, 2017)

JasonF said:


> If U.S. Superchargers support other vehicles, they're going to have to add J-1772+ DC fast charge plugs anyway, they can add longer cords while they're at it.


Why do they _have _to do that?


----------



## JasonF (Oct 26, 2018)

iChris93 said:


> Why do they _have _to do that?


Because no other cars in the U.S. support the Tesla connector. The cheapest/simplest route is to add J-1772+ with DC fast charging, because that's what the other half of the cars are using.


----------



## iChris93 (Feb 3, 2017)

JasonF said:


> Because no other cars in the U.S. support the Tesla connector. The cheapest/simplest route is to add J-1772+ with DC fast charging, because that's what the other half of the cars are using.


No, the cheapest route would be to let other OEMs make adapters.


----------



## Malaromane (Jul 5, 2020)

Bigriver said:


> I can't imagine being bothered if a Ford, Gm, Porsche, VW, Audi, Volvo, etc. is next to me. I never cared while filling up an ICE at the gas station, and I don't care while charging my EV. I think it will be more and more exciting as Tesla comes to dominate the charging infrastructure for all EVs.


This right here. I completely agree with @Bigriver. If we truly want EVs to become the new normal, we need to drop the "us vs them" elitist mentality when it comes to charging stations.

I prefer to view this news as another step towards the Tesla Supercharger becoming the industry standard. I know it probably won't but I can always hope.


----------



## wellerjohn (May 16, 2019)

If you’ve ever traveled on a weekend and waited in line to charge… you should be pissed about this. Just don’t have a sufficient amount of SC for this. Was going to buy the cyber truck but this is a deal breaker for me.


----------



## TrevP (Oct 20, 2015)

JasonF said:


> Because no other cars in the U.S. support the Tesla connector. The cheapest/simplest route is to add J-1772+ with DC fast charging, because that's what the other half of the cars are using.


That would be a CCS connector. They already retrofitted all of the Superchargers in Europe with them before the arrival of the Model 3 there because it has a CCS connector.

In North America I expect Tesla to do the same and go around and add a CCS cable. The other car makers are going to have to adopt Tesla's handshake for communication (trip to the dealer to update firmware?) and tie into their system for billing since none of the stations have payment terminals.

More likely would be cars starting in a model year, say 2023 or 2024, would be capable of using the network given they probably wouldn't be able to update firmware in prior cars to handle it. Seems like the typical thing car makers would do anyhow.

Just because Elon said on Twitter they will open it up by the end of the year doesn't mean we will immediately see a flood of other EVs using it right away. For all he means it could just be that they have their end taken care of so that others can START implementing the requirements on their end.

I wouldn't be worried too much about others tying up the Superchargers anytime soon, these things take a lot of time to adopt


----------



## iChris93 (Feb 3, 2017)

TrevP said:


> That's would be a CCS connector. They already retrofitted all of the Superchargers in Europe with them before the arrival of the Model 3 there because it has a CCS connector
> View attachment 39284


Their arm was forced by the EU, right?

Also, @TrevP, your image shows up in my reply but not your post.


----------



## garsh (Apr 4, 2016)

bwilson4web said:


> Except Bob's 2014 BMW i3-REx


Cool! I've learned something new today. 



JasonF said:


> (Sorry about the double reply, the software wouldn't let me insert quotes from 2 posts)


At the bottom-right of each post is a QUOTE button. Click that for every post that you'd like to reply to. Once you do that for one or more posts, there will be an INSERT QUOTES button at the bottom of the reply box. That will add all of the quoted messages into a single reply, where you can that add your own text.


----------



## Greg Moeller (Aug 17, 2016)

TrevP said:


> That would be a CCS connector. They already retrofitted all of the Superchargers in Europe with them before the arrival of the Model 3 there because it has a CCS connector.
> 
> In North America I expect Tesla to do the same and go around and add a CCS cable. The other car makers are going to have to adopt Tesla's handshake for communication (trip to the dealer to update firmware?) and tie into their system for billing since none of the stations have payment terminals.
> 
> ...


I'm not sure how complex the standard is, but couldn't Tesla update the superchargers to use Plug and Charge? (if they're adding an entire extra plug, probably a small extra cost) Then it's just some back-end work to link Tesla's network with the Plug and Charge network.


----------



## TrevP (Oct 20, 2015)

Greg Moeller said:


> I'm not sure how complex the standard is, but couldn't Tesla update the superchargers to use Plug and Charge? (if they're adding an entire extra plug, probably a small extra cost) Then it's just some back-end work to link Tesla's network with the Plug and Charge network.


Elon has stated before they have always been open to others using their network however they didn't have the resources (engineering/software) to spare to make any changes they would inevitably request for themselves (think cell phone carriers) so they'd have to adopt Tesla's tech. Unless something has changed, and it could, that's what they're going to have to do.


----------



## garsh (Apr 4, 2016)

StevieC said:


> One of the main reasons I bought a Tesla...


Aside: Can you update your profile? You're still listed as just having a reservation.



wellerjohn said:


> If you've ever traveled on a weekend and waited in line to charge… you should be pissed about this. Just don't have a sufficient amount of SC for this. Was going to buy the cyber truck but this is a deal breaker for me.


I'll be travelling down your way next week. Are superchargers that busy in Texas? I thought that this was mostly a California problem.

As Trevor stated, I don't expect anything to happen anytime soon. I think it would require one of these two scenarios to happen:

1) Tesla signs a deal with some other car manufacturer to allow their EVs to use Superchargers.
Then that manufacturer would have to include a Tesla charging port on their vehicles. Or Tesla will have to update supercharging stations to include a CCS1 plug. Or Tesla will have to create a CCS1-to-Tesla-Supercharging adapter.

2) Tesla creates a CCS1-to-Tesla-Supercharging adapter that works with any vehicle. Owner just needs to open a Tesla account for billing.

The easiest (for Tesla) is to include a Tesla plug on the third party vehicle. So that's my bet for how this is going to happen. There have been no announcements, so I don't expect that to happen anytime soon. I could see some smaller EV player like Rivian going this route. Maybe VW since Musk is friends with Diess.

Adding CCS1 cables to superchargers would be easiest for both users and the third party vehicle manufacturers. But it will take a LONG time to retrofit all existing superchargers. This was the approach taken in Europe, and it didn't happen overnight.

The creation of an adapter would mean that Tesla wouldn't have to have an agreement with any other manufacturers. But given that a 50kW CHAdeMO adapter costs $400, I would imagine that a 250kW CCS1 adapter would be well north of $1000. I can't see very many EV owners willing to shell out that kind of money - it would probably be cheaper to trade in their EV for a Tesla. Sure, there would be a handful who get the adapter, but not enough to matter.


----------



## JasonF (Oct 26, 2018)

iChris93 said:


> No, the cheapest route would be to let other OEMs make adapters.


Technically yes, but if the conditions of using the Tesla chargers are too onerous for the other manufacturers, they just won't bother. On that topic...



TrevP said:


> That would be a CCS connector. They already retrofitted all of the Superchargers in Europe with them before the arrival of the Model 3 there because it has a CCS connector.


That was a little easier in Europe. From what I've seen in Bjorn Nyland's videos, they retrofitted the superchargers so they all had both the Tesla Europe (Mennekes?) connector and CCS2. Since all other EV's in Europe already have CCS2, sharing the charging stations would work out be easy. The other thing that helps enormously is that there was a relatively small number of Model S/X before the Model 3 came out, and Tesla picked just the right time to swap over to CCS2 - because retrofitting the existing S/X fleet wouldn't be that expensive.

In the U.S. and Canada that's going to be trickier because no one here is using CCS2, so they'd be doing a supercharger retrofit that almost nobody would be able to use possibly for years. And retrofitting existing Teslas so they can get rid of the proprietary connector would be really expensive with all of those 3's and Y's floating around.



garsh said:


> At the bottom-right of each post is a QUOTE button. Click that for every post that you'd like to reply to. Once you do that for one or more posts, there will be an INSERT QUOTES button at the bottom of the reply box. That will add all of the quoted messages into a single reply, where you can that add your own text.


For some reason on that last post, it would let me quote one, and then the quote button disappeared, and wouldn't come back no matter how much I used the +Quote buttons.


----------



## Maxpilot (Oct 7, 2020)

Elon should require other OEM's to use the Tesla plug. Rivian and Lucid are not too late to switch from CCS.


----------



## wellerjohn (May 16, 2019)

garsh said:


> Aside: Can you update your profile? You're still listed as just having a reservation.
> 
> I'll be travelling down your way next week. Are superchargers that busy in Texas? I thought that this was mostly a California problem.
> 
> ...


Get out on I-10 you'll find "1" super charger about every 150 miles apart. Everyone stops for the most part at the same SC's. This would be a disaster.


----------



## shareef777 (Mar 10, 2019)

This is a very bad business decision. One of the greatest selling points of a Tesla is its charging network. No one is even remotely close.

If it has to be done, then I say charge them at least double what Tesla owners pay. To be clear, I don't SC very much. Our 3 has charged at home 96.7% of the time and 3.3% at SC. Incidentally out of the 3.3%, 2% has been the last couple months just so I can use the free SC mi I have (still have over 1k mi which'll most definitely expire before I get a chance to use them). So this isn't something that impacts me at all, but I feel like it's a dis-service to those that support Tesla.


----------



## airj1012 (Jan 29, 2019)

I'm interested to know who these other EV manufacturers are. Do you think they're Lucid and Rivian, or GM and Ford?

I also expect Tesla to ensure that other manufacturers can't hinder the current Supercharger experience. It's one thing if the volume of cars needing to use a site increases (and they can build more stalls), it's another thing if the other cars take too long to charge and that's the reason for the clog at a location. I imagine Tesla is thinking this through, as they do so for other parts of their business. Tesla is holding all the cards, so the other manufacturers need to agree to Tesla's terms.


----------



## DocScott (Mar 6, 2019)

wellerjohn said:


> This would be a disaster.


Unless Tesla uses this to accelerate the deployment of new Superchargers. Then it's a potential win.

It's inconceivable to me that Tesla won't try to use this to get new Superchargers built. Part of that will be funding: maybe they'll charge more for non-Tesla EVs to use them, or maybe they'll get those car companies to invest directly. But one way or another, I expect this to help build new Supercharger sites.

In addition, this will likely help greatly with site approval. A town council that is reluctant to provide approval for something that will serve just Teslas might be much more willing if it serves all (or many) manufacturers. That's particularly true if the Superchargers will be on public property, such as a library or museum site.

So I don't think the right image is to just think of half the spaces at existing Superchargers suddenly being used by non-Teslas. I think instead we should picture three times as many Supercharger sites, including some very near existing sites, with half the spaces being occupied by non-Teslas. That means Tesla owners having to drive less far to find a Supercharger, having fewer problems if a particular site is down, fewer problems with ICEing, and fewer incidences of vandalism.


----------



## Robert Robichaud (Nov 9, 2016)

Tesla should be able to double the number of stalls at each site to accommodate non-Teslas, Since the Federal government (in Canada and US) are supporting EV adoption, they should be able to kick in some $ and help remove barriers for this. The Feds could also provide incentives to the utilities to increase power to these sites.

Tesla could produce an adapter that would communicate with their SuperCharger to bill the user. Let the EV owner setup an account tied to the adapter and off they go. Eventually, they would see the benefits that Tesla owners have and may have an "ah ha!" moment to trade up.


----------



## JasonF (Oct 26, 2018)

shareef777 said:


> This is a very bad business decision. One of the greatest selling points of a Tesla is its charging network. No one is even remotely close.


Remember when I mentioned that I suspect there's a quiet battle in the Tesla board about whether to remain an exclusive luxury automaker or go mainstream and compete with Ford, GM, Toyota, etc? The mainstream push is being led by Elon Musk. His overarching goal is to make EV's affordable and commonplace, and he's willing to opensource the Tesla charging connector and the Supercharger network to get there. So an order to open up the Superchargers to other manufacturers would come directly from him. It's not particularly a good business decision, but it fits with his personal mission.

But there's still that battle going on at Tesla, and there is a pretty good chance that without Elon breathing down their necks, some of the board members will find some way to sabotage the deal and keep the Supercharger network proprietary and closed.


----------



## JasonF (Oct 26, 2018)

DocScott said:


> Unless Tesla uses this to accelerate the deployment of new Superchargers. Then it's a potential win.


I think they absolutely could. Not only that, but another benefit of suddenly becoming the strongest charging network by licensing it to other automakers is...locations. A lot of places that would normally shrug at a block of superchargers, or balk at giving up parking spaces, will suddenly be interested, and even offer reasonable land/lease prices just to have that resource nearby. Imagine if you could rapid charge your Tesla at every Ford dealer because Ford signed a deal with Tesla for supercharging.


----------



## NR4P (Jul 14, 2018)

My initial reaction is, oh no. V2 power sharing is terrible, few V3's here and tired of waiting for a spot to open. But thinking about this more, maybe its a good thing.

Here in Florida, Supercharging was typically 24-25c/kwh. In the past 6 months, Florida Power and Light added FPL Evolution in many locations as Tesla on major roadways. They charged 30c/kwh. I predicted that Elon would match the price and sure enough, he did. In a capitalistic society, competition is good. While N. America doesn't have the common plug as Europe does, we need to have all chargers charge all cars. Let Tesla, Blink, Ego, Electrify America, FPL and others fight for our business. Let us decide the price we pay per charge rate. Proprietary is normally bad, not good. 

But...Tesla needs to build more, many more V3s or the 300KW+ chargers Elon tweeted about.


----------



## lance.bailey (Apr 1, 2019)

garsh said:


> I don't think we'll have to worry about plugin hybrids at all - none of them can take a high-voltage DC input, only Level-2 AC AFAIK.


yep. There is no way that plugging my XC60 hybrid into a supercharger would do anything but rack up repair costs and a spot on the dealership's "customer of shame" wall.


----------



## shareef777 (Mar 10, 2019)

JasonF said:


> Remember when I mentioned that I suspect there's a quiet battle in the Tesla board about whether to remain an exclusive luxury automaker or go mainstream and compete with Ford, GM, Toyota, etc? The mainstream push is being led by Elon Musk. His overarching goal is to make EV's affordable and commonplace, and he's willing to opensource the Tesla charging connector and the Supercharger network to get there. So an order to open up the Superchargers to other manufacturers would come directly from him. It's not particularly a good business decision, but it fits with his personal mission.
> 
> But there's still that battle going on at Tesla, and there is a pretty good chance that without Elon breathing down their necks, some of the board members will find some way to sabotage the deal and keep the Supercharger network proprietary and closed.


I don't see how opening up the SC network is going mainstream. If Elon's "personal mission" is spreading EVs (which I don't believe is his ulterior motive), then ensuring Tesla's continued success should be his only goal. There's still A LOT of growth happening at Tesla. The new S/X aren't fully caught up, the 3/Y are going further and further backlogged, and then there's the yet to be released CyberTruck/Semi, not to mention the still undefined "$25k" Tesla. There's just far too many unknowns to open up the SC network to non-Tesla vehicles.

If Tesla didn't exist, every ICE manufacturer would only have EVs on a drawing board somewhere in a basement, and they'd be perfectly content with going back to that.


----------



## garsh (Apr 4, 2016)

shareef777 said:


> If Elon's "personal mission" is spreading EVs (which I don't believe is his ulterior motive)...


He's on the record several times that this was his goal.
It's even spelled out in the Master Plan.

https://www.tesla.com/blog/secret-tesla-motors-master-plan-just-between-you-and-me
_"...the overarching purpose of Tesla Motors (and the reason I am funding the company) is to help expedite the move from a mine-and-burn hydrocarbon economy towards a solar electric economy, which I believe to be the primary, but not exclusive, sustainable solution."_​


----------



## shareef777 (Mar 10, 2019)

garsh said:


> He's on the record several times that this was his goal.
> It's even spelled out in the Master Plan.
> 
> https://www.tesla.com/blog/secret-tesla-motors-master-plan-just-between-you-and-me
> _"...the overarching purpose of Tesla Motors (and the reason I am funding the company) is to help expedite the move from a mine-and-burn hydrocarbon economy towards a solar electric economy, which I believe to be the primary, but not exclusive, sustainable solution."_​


He's also "on the record" every two weeks for you know what


----------



## JasonF (Oct 26, 2018)

shareef777 said:


> I don't see how opening up the SC network is going mainstream.


It's all part of it - changing the way things are done so the overall EV transition is smoother.


----------



## MicheleDFrankie (Dec 8, 2018)

Malaromane said:


> This right here. I completely agree with @Bigriver. If we truly want EVs to become the new normal, we need to drop the "us vs them" elitist mentality when it comes to charging stations.
> 
> I prefer to view this news as another step towards the Tesla Supercharger becoming the industry standard. I know it probably won't but I can always hope.


Yes, all true, but I would hope that Tesla's are able to jump the line if it's crowded and maybe even get charged a lower rate. That would be nice.


----------



## JasonF (Oct 26, 2018)

MicheleDFrankie said:


> Yes, all true, but I would hope that Tesla's are able to jump the line if it's crowded and maybe even get charged a lower rate. That would be nice.


This may be the right time to bring up an idea I had again:

My idea is that when you navigate to a Supercharger in your Tesla, the same system that tells you how many stalls available should automatically reserve one for you (or a spot in line) when you arrive. To everyone else, it will show as "Reserved", and won't allow them to charge at that station - or when your turn comes up in line, the system grabs a station for you and immediately "reserves" it so only you can charge there. You'll have a certain grace period to start charging, so if you change your mind and drive on, the reservation expires.

That can be the exclusive Tesla feature. If anyone with another manufacturer of car arrives, they would just see stations reserved, or they have to wait in the standby queue.


----------



## garsh (Apr 4, 2016)

MicheleDFrankie said:


> Yes, all true, but I would hope that Tesla's are able to jump the line if it's crowded and maybe even get charged a lower rate. That would be nice.


I disagree. Playing favorites has a whole other list of downsides.

I'm sure there were also some Model S and X owners who were thinking that they should get preferential treatment at superchargers compared to all of us Model 3 owners.



JasonF said:


> My idea is that when you navigate to a Supercharger in your Tesla, the same system that tells you how many stalls available should automatically reserve one for you (or a spot in line) when you arrive. To everyone else, it will show as "Reserved", and won't allow them to charge at that station - or when your turn comes up in line, the system grabs a station for you and immediately "reserves" it so only you can charge there. You'll have a certain grace period to start charging, so if you change your mind and drive on, the reservation expires.


That's exactly how ChargePoint stations work. It's an optional feature, but our company turned it on once contention became too great at our office.

The best solution to these issues is

Continue to increase supercharging speed/power - cars will finish charging more quickly, allowing other cars to finish sooner too.
Install more capacity where contention still happens.


----------



## Bigriver (Jan 26, 2018)

For those who are concerned about having to wait in line behind non-Tesla's, are you worried about waiting in line behind the 300,000+ new Tesla's being sold in the US this year? As more EVs hit the road, of course we need more superchargers. The non-Tesla portion is still small, as @garsh showed, and cannot be the primary driving force for SC crowding.

For those who are worried this is a bad business decision because they are giving up their competitive advantage, what if Tesla were collecting $1000 (for example) royalty from the other manufacturers for every EV they sell? I would love to see the balance sheet line item for Tesla's profit from every EV sold by any manufacturer!

Teslafi tells me that I have been to 79 different supercharging locations, and hundreds of supercharging sessions. I have never waited. I have been the only car many more times than being at a high usage SC. For reference, this is the no trouble zone I have travelled in for the last 3.5 years.











JasonF said:


> My idea is that when you navigate to a Supercharger in your Tesla, the same system that tells you how many stalls available should automatically reserve one for you (or a spot in line) when you arrive.


I think Tesla definitely needs to improve the info available to the user about SCs, and guidance on which stall is among the things that would be helpful. I'm not so sure about giving Tesla's priority or a better price, as I don't know that does anything to help the non-Tesla EV community feel any better about Tesla and those who own Tesla's. I would wish to lessen, not increase, the image of us as entitled.


----------



## shareef777 (Mar 10, 2019)

JasonF said:


> This may be the right time to bring up an idea I had again:
> 
> My idea is that when you navigate to a Supercharger in your Tesla, the same system that tells you how many stalls available should automatically reserve one for you (or a spot in line) when you arrive. To everyone else, it will show as "Reserved", and won't allow them to charge at that station - or when your turn comes up in line, the system grabs a station for you and immediately "reserves" it so only you can charge there. You'll have a certain grace period to start charging, so if you change your mind and drive on, the reservation expires.
> 
> That can be the exclusive Tesla feature. If anyone with another manufacturer of car arrives, they would just see stations reserved, or they have to wait in the standby queue.


That's assuming people use navigation to get to the SC station. I've just pulled up on numerous occasions, and it'd be pretty difficult to know if a stall was reserved or not.

Additionally, the "grace period" would likely be as long as some people need to charge. On my road trip this past weekend, I went from Chicago-> St Louis and stopped off at Springfield. That lone stop off only required a 10min charge. Would suck if I couldn't plug in and be on my way in 10min because the stalls were reserved.


----------



## FRC (Aug 4, 2018)

I see any type of priority system causing more problems than it would solve. I foresee other drivers trying to utilize a reserved stall unsuccessfully, causing confusion and frustration. I'm also trying to imagine the reaction of drivers waiting to charge when a reservationist whips it into the first available stall, apparently breaking in line.

The solution to the possibility of supercharger overcrowding is to:
a) Build enough SCs to stay ahead of the demand, or
b) Increase the cost at overcrowded SC's to drive down the demand.


----------



## JasonF (Oct 26, 2018)

FRC said:


> I see any type of priority system causing more problems than it would solve. I foresee other drivers trying to utilize a reserved stall unsuccessfully, causing confusion and frustration. I'm also trying to imagine the reaction of drivers waiting to charge when a reservationist whips it into the first available stall, apparently breaking in line.


That's how reservations work!

Ultimately the solution is not to let superchargers get really overloaded with drivers, but there are still bound to be times when it's busy.


----------



## Nom (Oct 30, 2018)

I’ll feel better if there was a cost per minute that over rode cost per kWh … I don’t want slow chargers clogging things up.


----------



## Nom (Oct 30, 2018)

@Jason F - after reading this thread I skipped yours. I could have just liked your post.


----------



## NR4P (Jul 14, 2018)

Nom said:


> I'll feel better if there was a cost per minute that over rode cost per kWh … I don't want slow chargers clogging things up.


That might cost you more too at V2 chargers when power sharing is going on.


----------



## bwilson4web (Mar 4, 2019)

garsh said:


> Tesla creates a CCS1-to-Tesla-Supercharging adapter


The risk is an adapter would have two connectors for each power wire: (1) cable-to-adapter, and (2) adapter-to-vehicle. These are notorious for having small resistances that generate heat.

Complicating the problem, I can see future, higher power SuperChargers making sure there is active, conductor cooling within the Tesla vehicle side. Other EVs, especially after seeing the Munro videos, not so much.

Bob Wilson


----------



## iChris93 (Feb 3, 2017)

bwilson4web said:


> Other EVs, especially after seeing the Munro videos, not so much.


Then they could just be limited to a lower power.


----------



## garsh (Apr 4, 2016)

Nom said:


> I'll feel better if there was a cost per minute that over rode cost per kWh … I don't want slow chargers clogging things up.


By "slow chargers", do you mean "vehicles that are charging more slowly than what the charger will support"?

I agree, that's an issue. I would hope that Tesla will require some "minimum charging speed" in order to allow cars to use the supercharger network. A Taycan could easily use the full speed, but a Nissan Leaf could clog things up at its 50kW max.


----------



## StevieC (Jun 1, 2021)

iChris93 said:


> Then they could just be limited to a lower power.


Thus taking longer to charge, and inconveniencing us.


----------



## slasher016 (Sep 12, 2017)

I've waited in the midwest on holiday weekends. But the truth is, they need to expand the number of superchargers even if it's only Tesla using them. Hopefully this will accelerate that. There needs to be a v3 supercharger every 50 miles or so along major routes. With V3 speed and that depth of chargers, no one will be waiting.


----------



## Bigriver (Jan 26, 2018)

garsh said:


> I would hope that Tesla will require some "minimum charging speed" in order to allow cars to use the supercharger network.


Absolutely. Tesla opening the network doesn't mean Tesla accommodating everyone in whatever state they are at, but Tesla will be in control of defining specs.

I would also note that not all Tesla's can charge at the highest speeds. Model 3 SR and model S/X 75D's used to be limited to around 100 kW peak. I don't know if that has changed. The peak on my 2017 model X 100D is 150 kW.


----------



## DocScott (Mar 6, 2019)

Instead of limiting based on charging speeds, they could limit based on time when all stalls at a site are full. 

If not all stalls at a site are full, then who cares?

If all stalls at a v3 site are full, then limit to, say, 30 minutes. At a v2 site, maybe 60 minutes would be the limit.


----------



## JasonF (Oct 26, 2018)

DocScott said:


> If all stalls at a v3 site are full, then limit to, say, 30 minutes. At a v2 site, maybe 60 minutes would be the limit.


It might make sense for a Supercharger location to have a dependent cap when it's busy. If you're below a certain level, say 50%, it will let you charge up to xx%, say 60%, but if you're above 60% you get a 30 minute time limit.


----------



## FRC (Aug 4, 2018)

Endless permutations for what Tesla could do. What Tesla will do, only time will tell. Maybe 2 weeks?


----------



## shareef777 (Mar 10, 2019)

FRC said:


> Endless permutations for what Tesla could do. What Tesla will do, only time will tell. Maybe 2 weeks?


Tesla will likely do ... nothing! As the saying goes, sometimes the simplest solution is the best solution. They'll just keep building more SC stations/stalls as they see fit.


----------



## iChris93 (Feb 3, 2017)

FRC said:


> Endless permutations for what Tesla could do. What Tesla will do, only time will tell. Maybe 2 weeks?


They will obviously be bankrupt in 2 weeks


----------



## Chuck in Philly (Jul 24, 2021)

I mostly charge at home, so I only need the superchargers on long road trips. Usually I use the chargers at the highway rest stops, just where all the big rigs are. Will commercial truckers be able to use the superchargers there? Will they hog all the spots once trucking companies replace their diesel rigs with electric trucks?


----------



## JasonF (Oct 26, 2018)

Chuck in Philly said:


> I mostly charge at home, so I only need the superchargers on long road trips. Usually I use the chargers at the highway rest stops, just where all the big rigs are. Will commercial truckers be able to use the superchargers there? Will they hog all the spots once trucking companies replace their diesel rigs with electric trucks?


Trucks will most likely need much more robust charging stations of their own to fill huge batteries in a reasonable time.


----------



## msjulie (Feb 6, 2018)

All this reminds me of how much I dislike the CCS (and J1742) designs compared to the sleekness of the Tesla design. What tech or ego got in the way of that not being the standard? Always wondered.


----------



## JasonF (Oct 26, 2018)

msjulie said:


> All this reminds me of how much I dislike the CCS (and J1742) designs compared to the sleekness of the Tesla design. What tech or ego got in the way of that not being the standard? Always wondered.


J1172 and CCS main connectors look like they were originally designed for "stupid charging". Basically passing voltages directly through dedicated pins, and the way the car knows what the charging voltage will be is what pins it's coming in on. No communications or voltage sensing necessary. To do that, they needed separate 110, 220, and 3 phase inputs.

I guess to keep that stupid charging backward compatibility going, DC charging had to be added through another two pins.

No one but Tesla bothered to redesign the connector entirely so that it can reuse pins and use smart sensing and communication.


----------



## SwaggerWagon (Jul 9, 2017)

iChris93 said:


> Required for a publicly traded company.


Required for one registered as an S-Corp. That's why I've always said if Tesla's primary goal was transitioning the world to electric cars, they would've registered as a B-Corp. Of course maybe they figure it's easier to do that with a ton of money than not, and I don't know the details if there's limits on how much a B-Corp can take as profit, but at least they can't be sued by shareholders for failing to maximize profits. It seems more and more companies are incorporating as B-Corps just to get away from the low-vision, quarter-to-quarter Wall Street mindset.


----------



## walnotr (Jul 14, 2018)

I firmly believe Tesla knows exactly what is happening at their superchargers as far as stall availability and condition. Having said that, it would be convenient if, as you arrived, the display would recommend the optimal stall choice so you could avoid sharing power on a V2 charger, or skip the broken or reduced power charger without having to plug in to find out the status. V3 chargers eliminate some of those issues, but I have still encountered broken or reduced power V3 stalls.

As always, a first world problem for us, but it would be a nice convenience feature for frequent SC users.


----------



## FRC (Aug 4, 2018)

walnotr said:


> I firmly believe Tesla knows exactly what is happening at their superchargers as far as stall availability and condition. Having said that, it would be convenient if, as you arrived, the display would recommend the optimal stall choice so you could avoid sharing power on a V2 charger, or skip the broken or reduced power charger without having to plug in to find out the status. V3 chargers eliminate some of those issues, but I have still encountered broken or reduced power V3 stalls.
> 
> As always, a first world problem for us, but it would be a nice convenience feature for frequent SC users.


I don't have too much issue with this; I can generally make the A/B determination myself. It would be nice, however, if the car could tell us the best A/B stall with which to share based upon which car is likely to finish charging first.

Also [mini-rant alert], it is not uncommon to see 2 cars sitting side-by-side sharing A/B with several empty stalls available. I'm sure that this is born of ignorance. If I have the chance, I try to politely educate the offenders that they are slow-charging needlessly. Also irritating to see cars charging with 2 empty stalls between(or any even number), this just forces a future car to share needlessly. Please people, when the superchargers are numbered 1a,1b,2a,2b, etc.(as most are) pull in leaving one stall open between you and the other guy out of consideration for others. And if you have a chance, nicely educate others to this concept. This, of course, doesn't apply to V3 and urban chargers.


----------



## JasonF (Oct 26, 2018)

FRC said:


> Also [mini-rant alert], it is not uncommon to see 2 cars sitting side-by-side sharing A/B with several empty stalls available.


People do that at gas pumps, too. There must be a whole branch of psychology dedicated to that.


----------



## walnotr (Jul 14, 2018)

Like I said, a pop up would go a long way towards educating proper charger etiquette. For that matter, no education would be necessary, just pull into the indicated stall. The inconsistent numbering system often makes it difficult to determine to correct stall to use without cruising the stalls to figure out the optimum stall to use. Even doing that it’s often difficult to know when numbers are not visible/worn off. A/B pairs are sometimes separated by a few stalls. I have even come across V3 stalls with the A/B designator adding to the confusion.


----------



## Bigriver (Jan 26, 2018)

FRC said:


> Also irritating to see cars charging with 2 empty stalls between(or any even number), this just forces a future car to share needlessly. Please people, when the superchargers are numbered 1a,1b,2a,2b, etc.(as most are) pull in leaving one stall open between you and the other guy out of consideration for others.


Totally agree with your general comments and thank you for gently trying to further educate the Tesla population. But I am not understanding this. If someone is charging on 1A, what difference does it make if I pull into 2A vs 2B? And next guy can theoretically pull into either 3A or 3B without any change to those on 1A/1B or 2A/2B. What am I missing in my understanding? Just wanting to maximize physical distancing to prevent possible door dings?


----------



## StevieC (Jun 1, 2021)

FRC said:


> I don't have too much issue with this; I can generally make the A/B determination myself. It would be nice, however, if the car could tell us the best A/B stall with which to share based upon which car is likely to finish charging first.
> 
> Also [mini-rant alert], it is not uncommon to see 2 cars sitting side-by-side sharing A/B with several empty stalls available. I'm sure that this is born of ignorance. If I have the chance, I try to politely educate the offenders that they are slow-charging needlessly. Also irritating to see cars charging with 2 empty stalls between(or any even number), this just forces a future car to share needlessly. Please people, when the superchargers are numbered 1a,1b,2a,2b, etc.(as most are) pull in leaving one stall open between you and the other guy out of consideration for others. And if you have a chance, nicely educate others to this concept. This, of course, doesn't apply to V3 and urban chargers.


I doubt the non-Tesla drivers will even have a clue about that.


----------



## FRC (Aug 4, 2018)

Bigriver said:


> Totally agree with your general comments and thank you for gently trying to further educate the Tesla population. But I am not understanding this. If someone is charging on 1A, what difference does it make if I pull into 2A vs 2B? And next guy can theoretically pull into either 3A or 3B without any change to those on 1A/1B or 2A/2B. What am I missing in my understanding? Just wanting to maximize physical distancing to prevent possible door dings?


You are right @Bigriver, I'm confusing myself(it's not hard). I've just gotten used to leaving 1 empty space between cars as a method of assuring I don't double up. Also, if 2 cars plug into 1a and 2b, you run into the "OMG which car am I gonna screw when I plug up" situation. If we, the Society of Tesla Owners, could train ourselves to fill all the A chargers before any B chargers, supercharger etiquette would become second nature.


----------



## walnotr (Jul 14, 2018)

“A” chargers on even numbered days and ”B” chargers on odd numbered days. E don’t want to wear out all the “A” cables!
Now, try to get Joe Tesla to do that consistently. 😁


----------

