# That $5k Performance Upgrade option, Part Deux



## JeffC

(Some of this has been mentioned separately in other threads, but new information about the $5k Performance Upgrade option (gonna call it PUO here) available only with the Performance version of Model 3 helps clarify and consolidate some thoughts about it.)

I currently have the $5k Performance Upgrade option selected on my Silver Performance Model 3 configuration, but ultimately I probably want to upgrade the springs and dampers to @Sasha Anis 's MPP KW coilover kit: https://www.mountainpassperformance.com/product/mpp-model-3-sports-coilovers/ , and I'm having some difficulty deciding between getting PUO or not. Most of the things inlcluded in PUO can be upgraded with aftermarket parts instead. PUO includes larger wheels, small spoiler, metal pedal covers, and performance brakes. Wheels are 20 inch with the excellent street performance Michelin Pilot Sport 4S tire.

My goal is having excellent street performance, plus adjustment range to possibly take the car to a race track. It's very clear from Sasha's video that the coilovers make a huge improvement in track performance, though larger brakes, lighter wheels and near race tires are also needed. To those not familiar with modifying cars, these kinds of upgrades very much help a well-engineered car reach more of its full performance potential. It's very much the reason for AMG Mercedes, BMW M cars, aftermarket tuners, etc. (AMG was an aftermarket firm originally; Mercedes bought them and made them the in-house performance tuner. BMW M was always the in-house tuner of performance versions.)






All Teslas are very well engineered mechanically, electrically, chemically and software/neural-network-ly , but Model 3 has the best potential for performance tuning since it's so much lighter than Model S. Due to its lighter weight and smaller size, Model 3 is much more efficient on the street, but also on the race track, where Model S tends to overheat its motor or battery pack after a few laps. Model 3 has already endured full track sessions with little difficulty except for fried stock brake pads. Starting from an excellent mechanical design, Model 3 has major improvement potential from these modifications.

My main attraction in Sasha's coilover kit is lower ride height than factory Performance option, wide range of damping (rebound) adjustment, from nearly factory soft to harder than needed for race track, plus ride height adjustment via the coilovers. That should make for relatively comfortable street driving and also good race track performance.

While the 1cm lower factory Performance suspension likely is a performance-biased improvement over the LR/SR/AWD, and should work well on real-world bumpy roads and potholes due to keeping most of the highish ride height abd retaining most of the LR/SR/AWD wheel travel, ultimate performance arguably needs coilovers.

(More wheel travel generally allows a suspension to better handle bumps, potholes, etc. Race tracks are generally sooth; real roads not. Taller ride height and resulting longer wheel travel is an advantage on the street. Lower, stiffer cars are generally an advantage on the track. As in everything engineering, all design decisions are a tradeoff.)

Judging by the video, main thing lacking from Model 3 for the race track now seems to be camber adjustment at the front. Kind of surprised that lowering the car 40mm did not result in enough camber gain at the front, but I suppose someone will make camber plates eventually. (Sasha hinted that he's thinking about that too.) (If lowering did not increase camber enough, then camber plates would not exist, so apparently more camber is needed for most street cars taken to a race track.)

(Camber is the tilt of the wheel from the lateral outside towards the center of the car. More camber makes the outside edges of the wheels tilt up higher than the insides, which helps them stick better in turns, at least for cars with a lot of suspension travel and relatively short suspension arms, i.e., normal production road cars. Reference: Carroll Smith: Tune to Win book series. Open wheel formula race cars have long suspension arms and less wheel travel and need less camber.)

Talk of camber also brings up suitability to street use and the compromises for track use. Ideally one would like minimal camber on the street to reduce tire wear and quite a bit of camber on the track for better grip in turns. Camber plates do make it possible to adjust that for the track, just as coilovers allow reducing ride height for the track, along with adjustable dampers for damping. But it's somewhat of a hassle to change those and need to realign the suspension each time.

The other major question the Tesla community had was brakes. Tesla said on twitter that without PUO, Performance Model 3 gets the same brakes as base dual motor (AWD). (And they did not specify exactly what those are, but it implies AWD and non PUO Performance gets different brakes than Long Range / Standard Range.) PUO includes larger rotors with iron discs and probably Aluminum hats, apparently both at front and back. Supplier for PUO brakes is Brembo, but Brembo may also supply the regular brakes.

It's worth repeating again here that brake upgrades will generally only be relevant on a race track. Normal street driving does not heat up the brakes, pads or fluid enough to get brake fade. Only repeated high power braking from high speeds can do that, and it's really only possible to do that safely or legally on a race track. Unless you're going on a race track, you likely don't need nor would benefit from larger brake rotors, etc.

Sasha also sells a front brake upgrade that he reported works very well on the race track with upgraded pads and fluid, but with the stock brake caliper, which is special in that it has low drag for better EV efficiency. His 365 mm rotor does not fit with 18 inch wheels, so he used 19s on the track and added a machined adapter plate to attach the caliper when used with the larger rotor.

Tesla has still not made it clear whether the PUO brakes would fit the 18 inch Aero wheels. I hope to measure all when Performance Model 3 comes to stores. If the PUO brakes will fit Aeros, then that would be a reason to get PUO so its upgraded brakes could be used with Aeros for their greater efficiency on long road trips. If not, then I could skip PUO and go directly to Sasha's brakes.

At some point Tesla quoted the Performance brakes as 355 mm, but they have taken down that reference, so it may have changed. 355 mm probably fit inside most 18 inch wheels, but it's borderline.

Feedback wanted.

I'm still tempted to get PUO to learn the factory's tuning, even if I end up changing out springs/dampers, wheels/tires later. And I would like to get the Aeros, but only if PUO brakes fit. How to solve this?

PUO also includes a small spoiler that may actually improve high speed stability enough to allow the 155 MPH top speed upgrade. This is of minor interest to me. It's almost impossible to try top speed here legally (except for legal open road races, salt flats, etc.).

PUO includes metal pedal (covers). Nice, but not important to me.

For people who are normal street drivers and not performance oriented, none of the above will likely be relevant. The above is for people who like to push their cars towards the limits of performance, hopefully on a race track. In this way we celebrate more of what the cars can do, and likely do very well in the case of Model 3. Again, some of this may not be legal to do on the street, and I will never advocate breaking any laws. Please explore the limits safely on a race track, autocross course, etc.

Please do go to a performance driving school or racing school, even if you never intend to race, in order to learn how to drive safely at the limits, for example which can come up in an emergency on the street. Unfortunately millions of people die annually in car crashes, due at least in part to ignorance about this.

Safety systems like traction control, ABS, seat belts, air bags, etc., can and do save lives, but they can't defeat the laws of physics. The driver is by far the most important part of the equation.

Also, racing, or even high performance driving at track days with no competition, is great fun.

P.S. Thanks to mods for moving this thread to Tech Talk forum.


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## Jayc

Nice write-up @JeffC

Great source of information this forum.


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## JustTheTip

The coilovers, as of now, won’t necessarily work right on the AWD Performance upgrade model given the motor up front. They’ll have to have a separate offering since spring rates and valving will no doubt have to be adjusted after more testing. I plan to go this route as well, eventually, but it will take some time for Sasha to get his hands on a P+. 

As for the front rotor upgrade, that should be good. I plan on that eventually as well.


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## PandaM3

Before I figured go aftermarket.

However after seeing a YouTube of close up on a performance optioned Model 3, it appears it includes upgraded rotors and calipers for both front and back. The calipers look to be 6 piston at least and look as beefy as cayenne or amg S class calipers... imho that alone is worth the $5k. The rotors are one piece however they are a floating design... so that can be upgraded to a multipiece rotor.






Here's what Panamera calipers look like in comparison.

http://www.loebermotors.com/blog/porsche-panamera-brakes-guide/


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## JeffC

JustTheTip said:


> The coilovers, as of now, won't necessarily work right on the AWD Performance upgrade model given the motor up front. They'll have to have a separate offering since spring rates and valving will no doubt have to be adjusted after more testing. I plan to go this route as well, eventually, but it will take some time for Sasha to get his hands on a P+.
> 
> As for the front rotor upgrade, that should be good. I plan on that eventually as well.


Agree, the front compression damping and spring rate may need to be higher for the greater front mass of any Dual Motor car, including Performance. So you're right, that may be a different kit.

Sasha's brake kit may not be needed if PUO is ordered since it comes with at least larger front brakes


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## JeffC

PandaM3 said:


> Before I figured go aftermarket.
> 
> However after seeing a YouTube of close up on a performance optioned Model 3, it appears it includes upgraded rotors and calipers for both front and back. The calipers look to be 6 piston at least and look as beefy as cayenne or amg S class calipers... imho that alone is worth the $5k. The rotors are one piece however they are a floating design... so that can be upgraded to a multipiece rotor.


Yes, Performance Model 3 with PUO gets different brakes. Apparently P without PUO does not. Here's what Tesla tweeted about the brakes, in an effort to try to clarify some of the uncertainty:

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1017799473324388352(Somewhat confusingly PUP above appears to refer to PUO and not Premium Upgrade Package which PUP more commonly seems to refer to.)

and:

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1017909851727335424
I should mention again that even the standard brakes may be adequate for almost all street driving. The larger brakes are really only needed for a race track.


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## JustTheTip

JeffC said:


> Agree, the front compression damping and spring rate may need to be higher for the greater front mass of any Dual Motor car, including Performance. So you're right, that may be a different kit.
> 
> Sasha's brake kit may not be needed if PUO is ordered since it comes with at least larger front brakes


I'd actually love to know the weight difference between the front Tesla BBK rotors vs MPP's. I'm sure the veins in the Tesla rotors will be straight vs curved like in the MPP kit. Heat dissipation and weight savings could very well be significant in the MPP kit. If so, I'll get it. Eventually.


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## JeffC

JustTheTip said:


> I'd actually love to know the weight difference between the front Tesla BBK rotors vs MPP's. I'm sure the veins in the Tesla rotors will be straight vs curved like in the MPP kit. Heat dissipation and weight savings could very well be significant in the MPP kit. If so, I'll get it. Eventually.


I'd be surprised if they weren't similar. Both are larger Iron rotors with separate hats, provided by major suppliers. Need measurements though.


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## JeffC

What I was personally trying to decide in this thread is whether to get PUO initially, or upgrade those things myself later. It makes much sense to drive the stock PUO as a baseline, but I'm pretty sure I want coilovers, etc. OTOH as pointed out, it may take a little while for aftermarket coilovers to become available, but probably not too long.

Comments?


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## PandaM3

JustTheTip said:


> I'd actually love to know the weight difference between the front Tesla BBK rotors vs MPP's. I'm sure the veins in the Tesla rotors will be straight vs curved like in the MPP kit. Heat dissipation and weight savings could very well be significant in the MPP kit. If so, I'll get it. Eventually.


The performance rotors look to be a floating rotor design much like my factory bmw Bmw m3 rotors...

MPP is a multipiece rotor with aluminum hat so it's much lighter.


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## JeffC

PandaM3 said:


> The performance rotors look to be a floating rotor design much like my factory bmw Bmw m3 rotors...
> 
> MPP is a multipiece rotor with aluminum hat so it's much lighter.


Pictures of PUO may show fixed calipers front. Tesla says PUO rotors are Iron with Aluminum hats. Rear rotors on PUO also appear to be two piece.


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## PandaM3

JeffC said:


> The factory PUO front *caliper* may be floating. But Tesla says PUO rotors are Iron with Aluminum hats. The PUO rears may also be floating.
> 
> Presumably you meant floating caliper and not floating rotor. Floating caliper means the caliper is mounted on sliding rods which allows it to move with the brake disc as it wears. Most purpose built race cars use floating calipers. Most street cars use fixed calipers.


You have it backwards.

Fixed caliper with multiple pistons is best for a high performance sedan or for the track. The LR front caliper is a fixed 4 piston caliper and rear is a single piston floating/ sliding caliper. The performance caliper is probably a 6 piston caliper. Fixed multiple pistons give better brake pedal feel and more consistent braking on the track.

The LR rotors are single piece iron discs.

The Performance rotors look to be a floating design... but it's not multipiece otherwise you'll see the rivets for the aluminum hat.

MPP has a true multipiece design.


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## JeffC

@PandaM3 Yeah, I edited my post after you quoted it.  Agree fixed is better.

Tesla said PUO rotor is two piece above, and the rears look similar to the fronts in that regard.


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## Guest

Carbon Fiber Spoiler, Brakes and wheels make for a great value if the look of them appeals to you. I spec'd this option on my incoming P3 . Found these posted over on Reddit.


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## JeffC

Performance3 said:


> Carbon Fiber Spoiler, Brakes and wheels make for a great value if the look of them appeals to you. I spec'd this option on my incoming P3 . Found these posted over on Reddit.


Agree PUO looks great, but I probably value performance a bit over looks.

(And all variants are good looking, well except maybe the Aeros. I like the Aero wheels, but don't like their dark color. I will wrap the grey part Silver if I get them, but keep the black part black, like the left side of: https://i.redditmedia.com/u0IZN2IS_...IPUgG8.jpg?s=4991e82084ae9221f0c334290a1fc3c2 )

The spoiler probably does improve stability at top speed, i.e., it's actually functional.

In Germany, car accessories can't be sold if they hurt performance.


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## MountainPass

Thanks for the great write-up and your thoughts! It was never our intention to compete with Tesla's options, but that seems to be what is happening here!

We are currently working on coilovers for the dual motor cars, so once we have the final dimensions hopefully we can have those produced faster than our current coilovers have taken as it's just a small change to the valving and spring rates in the front, and the clevis around the front axle. 

I would love to get my hands on that spoiler, it looks great. Subtle.


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## garsh

I think @JeffC just talked me into dropping the PUO.

I don't want a spoiler
I don't care what my pedals look like
I do really like the brake upgrade. But honestly, I don't need it. And it sounds like it would prevent me from running snow tires on 18" wheels in the winter.
I'd much rather have a staggered 18" or 19" setup than the square-set 20" wheels for summer.
Plus, if I get it with the 18s, then that gives me a great excuse to plan a road trip to meet @Mad Hungarian to help me pick out a new set of wheels for my ride.


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## Skione65

garsh said:


> I think @JeffC just talked me into dropping the PUO.
> 
> I don't want a spoiler
> I don't care what my pedals look like
> I do really like the brake upgrade. But honestly, I don't need it. And it sounds like it would prevent me from running snow tires on 18" wheels in the winter.
> I'd much rather have a staggered 18" or 19" setup than the square-set 20" wheels for summer.
> Plus, if I get it with the 18s, then that gives me a great excuse to plan a road trip to meet @Mad Hungarian to help me pick out a new set of wheels for my ride.


@garsh,

I've been battling this as well. I'm in for Sasha's Sport Coilovers and camber and toe arm setup and more than likely the upgraded brake package from MPP after he retunes for P3D. Right now I've got the PUO as well on config/order. May just run that until Shasta's kit is out. Decisions.

Ski


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## garsh

I'm officially on the fence.

I like those upgraded brakes. I don't _need_ them, but I like them.

But I also liked the idea of using Aeros for winter tires. I need conclusive evidence that the Aeros won't fit with the upgraded brakes.


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## Mad Hungarian

JeffC said:


> (Some of this has been mentioned separately in other threads, but new information about the $5k Performance Upgrade option (gonna call it PUO here) available only with the Performance version of Model 3 helps clarify and consolidate some thoughts about it.)
> 
> I currently have the $5k Performance Upgrade option selected on my Silver Performance Model 3 configuration, but ultimately I probably want to upgrade the springs and dampers to @Sasha Anis 's MPP KW coilover kit: https://www.mountainpassperformance.com/product/mpp-model-3-sports-coilovers/ , and I'm having some difficulty deciding between getting PUO or not. Most of the things inlcluded in PUO can be upgraded with aftermarket parts instead. PUO includes larger wheels, small spoiler, metal pedal covers, and performance brakes. Wheels are 20 inch with the excellent street performance Michelin Pilot Sport 4S tire.
> 
> My goal is having excellent street performance, plus adjustment range to possibly take the car to a race track. It's very clear from Sasha's video that the coilovers make a huge improvement in track performance, though larger brakes, lighter wheels and near race tires are also needed. To those not familiar with modifying cars, these kinds of upgrades very much help a well-engineered car reach more of its full performance potential. It's very much the reason for AMG Mercedes, BMW M cars, aftermarket tuners, etc. (AMG was an aftermarket firm originally; Mercedes bought them and made them the in-house performance tuner. BMW M was always the in-house tuner of performance versions.)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> All Teslas are very well engineered mechanically, electrically, chemically and software/neural-network-ly , but Model 3 has the best potential for performance tuning since it's so much lighter than Model S. Due to its lighter weight and smaller size, Model 3 is much more efficient on the street, but also on the race track, where Model S tends to overheat its motor or battery pack after a few laps. Model 3 has already endured full track sessions with little difficulty except for fried stock brake pads. Starting from an excellent mechanical design, Model 3 has major improvement potential from these modifications.
> 
> My main attraction in Sasha's coilover kit is lower ride height than factory Performance option, wide range of damping (rebound) adjustment, from nearly factory soft to harder than needed for race track, plus ride height adjustment via the coilovers. That should make for relatively comfortable street driving and also good race track performance.
> 
> While the 1cm lower factory Performance suspension likely is a performance-biased improvement over the LR/SR/AWD, and should work well on real-world bumpy roads and potholes due to keeping most of the highish ride height abd retaining most of the LR/SR/AWD wheel travel, ultimate performance arguably needs coilovers.
> 
> (More wheel travel generally allows a suspension to better handle bumps, potholes, etc. Race tracks are generally sooth; real roads not. Taller ride height and resulting longer wheel travel is an advantage on the street. Lower, stiffer cars are generally an advantage on the track. As in everything engineering, all design decisions are a tradeoff.)
> 
> Judging by the video, main thing lacking from Model 3 for the race track now seems to be camber adjustment at the front. Kind of surprised that lowering the car 40mm did not result in enough camber gain at the front, but I suppose someone will make camber plates eventually. (Sasha hinted that he's thinking about that too.) (If lowering did not increase camber enough, then camber plates would not exist, so apparently more camber is needed for most street cars taken to a race track.)
> 
> (Camber is the tilt of the wheel from the lateral outside towards the center of the car. More camber makes the outside edges of the wheels tilt up higher than the insides, which helps them stick better in turns, at least for cars with a lot of suspension travel and relatively short suspension arms, i.e., normal production road cars. Reference: Carroll Smith: Tune to Win book series. Open wheel formula race cars have long suspension arms and less wheel travel and need less camber.)
> 
> Talk of camber also brings up suitability to street use and the compromises for track use. Ideally one would like minimal camber on the street to reduce tire wear and quite a bit of camber on the track for better grip in turns. Camber plates do make it possible to adjust that for the track, just as coilovers allow reducing ride height for the track, along with adjustable dampers for damping. But it's somewhat of a hassle to change those and need to realign the suspension each time.
> 
> The other major question the Tesla community had was brakes. Tesla said on twitter that without PUO, Performance Model 3 gets the same brakes as LR, AWD, etc. PUO includes larger rotors with iron discs and probably Aluminum hats, apparently both at front and back. Supplier for PUO brakes is Brembo, but Brembo may also supply the regular brakes.
> 
> It's worth repeating again here that brake upgrades will generally only be relevant on a race track. Normal street driving does not heat up the brakes, pads or fluid enough to get brake fade. Only repeated high power braking from high speeds can do that, and it's really only possible to do that safely or legally on a race track. Unless you're going on a race track, you likely don't need nor would benefit from larger brake rotors, etc.
> 
> Sasha also sells a front brake upgrade that he reported works very well on the race track with upgraded pads and fluid, but with the stock brake caliper, which is special in that it has low drag for better EV efficiency. His 365 mm rotor does not fit with 18 inch wheels, so he used 19s on the track and added a machined adapter plate to attach the caliper when used with the larger rotor.
> 
> Tesla has still not made it clear whether the PUO brakes would fit the 18 inch Aero wheels. I hope to measure all when Performance Model 3 comes to stores. If the PUO brakes will fit Aeros, then that would be a reason to get PUO so its upgraded brakes could be used with Aeros for their greater efficiency on long road trips. If not, then I could skip PUO and go directly to Sasha's brakes.
> 
> At some point Tesla quoted the Performance brakes as 355 mm, but they have taken down that reference, so it may have changed. 355 mm probably fit inside most 18 inch wheels, but it's borderline.
> 
> Feedback wanted.
> 
> I'm still tempted to get PUO to learn the factory's tuning, even if I end up changing out springs/dampers, wheels/tires later. And I would like to get the Aeros, but only if PUO brakes fit. How to solve this?
> 
> PUO also includes a small spoiler that may actually improve high speed stability enough to allow the 155 MPH top speed upgrade. This is of minor interest to me. It's almost impossible to try top speed here legally (except for legal open road races, salt flats, etc.).
> 
> PUO includes metal pedal (covers). Nice, but not important to me.
> 
> For people who are normal street drivers and not performance oriented, none of the above will likely be relevant. The above is for people who like to push their cars towards the limits of performance, hopefully on a race track. In this way we celebrate more of what the cars can do, and likely do very well in the case of Model 3. Again, some of this may not be legal to do on the street, and I will never advocate breaking any laws. Please explore the limits safely on a race track, autocross course, etc.
> 
> Please do go to a performance driving school or racing school, even if you never intend to race, in order to learn how to drive safely at the limits, for example which can come up in an emergency on the street. Unfortunately millions of people die annually in car crashes, due at least in part to ignorance about this.
> 
> Safety systems like traction control, ABS, seat belts, air bags, etc., can and do save lives, but they can't defeat the laws of physics. The driver is by far the most important part of the equation.
> 
> Also, racing, or even high performance driving at track days with no competition, is great fun.
> 
> P.S. Thanks to mods for moving this thread to Tech Talk forum.


Good post Jeff, although the only correction I'd make is that Tesla has NOT said that the non-PUP Performance cars have the same brakes as LR / AWD / etc, the exact wording of their response is that they have the same brakes as regular Dual...



__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1017909851727335424

So we know the configuration and caliper type, but do not yet know what _size_ the Dual brakes are (not that I've made a big deal about that or anything )


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## JeffC

Mad Hungarian said:


> Good post Jeff, although the only correction I'd make is that Tesla has NOT said that the non-PUP Performance cars have the same brakes as LR / AWD / etc, the exact wording of their response is that they have the same brakes as regular Dual...
> 
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1017909851727335424
> 
> So we know the configuration and caliper type, but do not yet know what _size_ the Dual brakes are (not that I've made a big deal about that or anything )


Good eye. I missed the Dual motor there (read it as base (LR/SR), probably). Updating my original post accordingly. It does imply that Dual and non PUO performance gets different brakes from LR/SR.

We still lack information about the PUO actual brake sizes and whether they would fit 18 inch wheels such as the Aeros or aftermarket.


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## JeffC

garsh said:


> I think @JeffC just talked me into dropping the PUO.
> 
> I don't want a spoiler
> I don't care what my pedals look like
> I do really like the brake upgrade. But honestly, I don't need it. And it sounds like it would prevent me from running snow tires on 18" wheels in the winter.
> I'd much rather have a staggered 18" or 19" setup than the square-set 20" wheels for summer.
> Plus, if I get it with the 18s, then that gives me a great excuse to plan a road trip to meet @Mad Hungarian to help me pick out a new set of wheels for my ride.





garsh said:


> I'm officially on the fence.
> 
> I like those upgraded brakes. I don't _need_ them, but I like them.
> 
> But I also liked the idea of using Aeros for winter tires. I need conclusive evidence that the Aeros won't fit with the upgraded brakes.


I too am on the fence, thus this post, which is really asking for help deciding.

20 inch wheels, aside from bragging rights, may be the least desirable. 18s are considered optimal for racing since they minimize wheel weight. Lighter is also better for the street, in general, since it makes the wheels do less work on every extension. (I do note that Sasha says the heaver tires that go with lighter wheels does have an effect. He got Aero like weight with 19 inch light racing wheels and wider tires. I'm certain they were lighter than the factory 20s though.)

I'd like to run staggered due to the high rear wheel torque of Peformance, and I'd like Aeros with all season tires for long road trips. (Really the stock Aero wheels and tires for maximum efficiency).

But it's unknown whether the 18s will fit with the PUO brakes.

Sasha's 365 mm brake upgrade is known to not fit with 18s.

Hi @Sasha Anis , could you make a 355 mm rotor kit that would fit the Aeros? That might be a nice solution, especially if the factory upgraded rotors of PUO does not fit the 18s. (Again, the latter is unknown at present.)

And yes, choosing aftermarket wheels is part of the fun, to give some individual personality to the cars, along with possible performance upgrades from different widths and tires.


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## JeffC

Skione65 said:


> @garsh,
> 
> I've been battling this as well. I'm in for Sasha's Sport Coilovers and camber and toe arm setup and more than likely the upgraded brake package from MPP after he retunes for P3D. Right now I've got the PUO as well on config/order. May just run that until Shasta's kit is out. Decisions.
> 
> Ski


Same here. I'm leaning towards PUO if the Aeros may fit the upgraded brakes. Still too many unknowns.

The coilovers are likely a better solution than factory Performance suspension, and they're very adjustable.

At some point the configuration will be frozen for each of us as build nears.


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## MountainPass

JeffC said:


> I too am on the fence, thus this post, which is really asking for help deciding.
> 
> 20 inch wheels, aside from bragging rights, may be the least desirable. 18s are considered optimal for racing since they minimize wheel weight. Lighter is also better for the street, in general, since it makes the wheels do less work on every extension. (I do note that Sasha says the heaver tires that go with lighter wheels does have an effect. He got Aero like weight with 19 inch light racing wheels and wider tires. I'm certain they were lighter than the factory 20s though.)
> 
> I'd like to run staggered due to the high rear wheel torque of Peformance, and I'd like Aeros with all season tires for long road trips. (Really the stock Aero wheels and tires for maximum efficiency).
> 
> But it's unknown whether the 18s will fit with the PUO brakes.
> 
> Sasha's 365 mm brake upgrade is known to not fit with 18s.
> 
> Hi @Sasha Anis , could you make a 355 mm rotor kit that would fit the Aeros? That might be a nice solution, especially if the factory upgraded rotors of PUO does not fit the 18s. (Again, the latter is unknown at present.)
> 
> And yes, choosing aftermarket wheels is part of the fun, to give some individual personality to the cars, along with possible performance upgrades from different widths and tires.


Our Big Brake Kit will not fit in 18" wheels because the caliper has to be moved outwards to clear the rotor. We have been getting a lot of inquiries about a 2 piece rotor setup that fits in the 18". If we can get a pre-order group together of at least 10 orders, we will produce them!

If you are serious, send us an email and we will make it happen

[email protected]


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## Guest

JeffC said:


> I too am on the fence, thus this post, which is really asking for help deciding.
> 
> 20 inch wheels, aside from bragging rights, may be the least desirable. 18s are considered optimal for racing since they minimize wheel weight. Lighter is also better for the street, in general, since it makes the wheels do less work on every extension. (I do note that Sasha says the heaver tires that go with lighter wheels does have an effect. He got Aero like weight with 19 inch light racing wheels and wider tires. I'm certain they were lighter than the factory 20s though.)
> 
> I'd like to run staggered due to the high rear wheel torque of Peformance, and I'd like Aeros with all season tires for long road trips. (Really the stock Aero wheels and tires for maximum efficiency).
> 
> But it's unknown whether the 18s will fit with the PUO brakes.
> 
> Sasha's 365 mm brake upgrade is known to not fit with 18s.
> 
> Hi @Sasha Anis , could you make a 355 mm rotor kit that would fit the Aeros? That might be a nice solution, especially if the factory upgraded rotors of PUO does not fit the 18s. (Again, the latter is unknown at present.)
> 
> And yes, choosing aftermarket wheels is part of the fun, to give some individual personality to the cars, along with possible performance upgrades from different widths and tires.





Sasha Anis said:


> Our Big Brake Kit will not fit in 18" wheels because the caliper has to be moved outwards to clear the rotor. We have been getting a lot of inquiries about a 2 piece rotor setup that fits in the 18". If we can get a pre-order group together of at least 10 orders, we will produce them!
> 
> If you are serious, send us an email and we will make it happen
> 
> [email protected]


Wow that's what I call service! Lets see how quickly these racers will act.


----------



## Mad Hungarian

Sasha Anis said:


> Our Big Brake Kit will not fit in 18" wheels because the caliper has to be moved outwards to clear the rotor. We have been getting a lot of inquiries about a 2 piece rotor setup that fits in the 18". If we can get a pre-order group together of at least 10 orders, we will produce them!
> 
> If you are serious, send us an email and we will make it happen
> 
> [email protected]


I have a feeling you won't have an issue hitting 10 orders.
And you'll be positively swamped with them if the Dual and base Performance brakes wind up being the same as RWD.


----------



## JeffC

Sasha Anis said:


> Our Big Brake Kit will not fit in 18" wheels because the caliper has to be moved outwards to clear the rotor. We have been getting a lot of inquiries about a 2 piece rotor setup that fits in the 18". If we can get a pre-order group together of at least 10 orders, we will produce them!
> 
> If you are serious, send us an email and we will make it happen
> 
> [email protected]


Still want to confirm the PUO larger rotor/caliper won't fit the 18s, but if not, will probably order for use with Aeros. Assume it would be 355 mm rotor.


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## MountainPass

Mad Hungarian said:


> I have a feeling you won't have an issue hitting 10 orders.
> And you'll be positively swamped with them if the Dual and base Performance brakes wind up being the same as RWD.


 We got quite a few emails! Will be coming back here to update y'all!


----------



## MountainPass

Here it is!

https://www.mountainpassperformance.com/product/mpp-page-mill-320mm-rotor/

Please, let us know if there is anything else you want. We weren't sure about the demand for this, but the community let us know!

Have a great weekend!


----------



## ppower

Sasha Anis said:


> Here it is!
> 
> https://www.mountainpassperformance.com/product/mpp-page-mill-320mm-rotor/
> 
> Please, let us know if there is anything else you want. We weren't sure about the demand for this, but the community let us know!
> 
> Have a great weekend!


What would have been the biggest you could have offered and still fit the 18's? From pictures of the PU brakes, it looks like the rears are tighter tolerances than the front. That said, it makes sense to have the same 320mm that can be offered for F&R.


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## MountainPass

ppower said:


> What would have been the biggest you could have offered and still fit the 18's? From pictures of the PU brakes, it looks like the rears are tighter tolerances than the front. That said, it makes sense to have the same 320mm that can be offered for F&R.


Check out this picture








This bracket needs to be big enough to bolt to the knuckle and also to the caliper, we can't push the caliper out any less without having an unsafe amount of material between the knuckle mounting bolt and the caliper. Hopefully I explained it ok. Consider our Page Mill kit the minimum BBK size, we could make even bigger, but when you start running huge wheels to fit bigger brakes the performance tradeoff stops making sense.


----------



## JeffC

TLDR: I measured the front Performance Upgrade Option front rotor diameter at 355 mm (which is also a highly standard size, including from Brembo), and the rear at 332 mm. The front caliper to wheel clearance is large enough to probably fit an 18 inch wheel, but perhaps ironically the *rear* caliper to wheel clearance may not fit an 18. However the barrel inner diameter of different wheels can vary by construction, so some 18s may fit while others may not.

Pictures, measurements, and analysis below:


Measuring PUO wheels and brakes: 





  








IMG_20180726_155659505




__
JeffC


__
Jul 27, 2018




20 inch wheel





Above 20 inch wheel with red PUO caliper.





  








IMG_20180726_155705842




__
JeffC


__
Jul 27, 2018




20 inch wheel barrel inner diameter





Above: 20 inch wheel barrel inner diameter near plane of rotor I measured as 469 mm. Made multiple measurements. Since the measuring tape has a tab at 0, I started all measurements at the 10 cm = 100 mm line, so all measurements on tape should have 100 mm subtracted.





  








IMG_20180726_160503344




__
JeffC


__
Jul 27, 2018




measurement caliper for inside diameter





Above: Measurement set up for rotor outer diameter. (I made my measurement caliper from some Aluminum bar stock, wing nuts, and plastic shelf holders from hardware store. It worked adequately and was reasonably repeatable. I made the caliper as perpendicular to the wheels/rotors/calipers, etc., as possible when measuring and gently moved the measuring tips to just clear the thing under measurement.)





  








IMG_20180726_160515612




__
JeffC


__
Jul 27, 2018







Above: PUO front rotor diameter 355 mm





  








IMG_20180726_160839688_HDR




__
JeffC


__
Jul 27, 2018




rear performance rotor diameter 333 mm





Above: PUO rear rotor diameter 332 to 333 mm. (332 appears to be a standard Brembo diameter, so it could be 332.)





  








IMG_20180726_161726053_HDR




__
JeffC


__
Jul 27, 2018




front caliper to wheel clearance





Above: Front caliper to wheel clearance at about 29 mm is more than an inch and therefore would probably fit 18 inch wheel. (Note that the other measurement tip was lined up with the "10" mark, but due to parallax, it looks like it doesn't. I moved the camera to have near zero parallax on the (other) measurement side.)





  








IMG_20180726_161553611_HDR




__
JeffC


__
Jul 27, 2018




rear caliper to wheel clearance





Above: However rear caliper to wheel clearance was less than 25 mm and therefore may not clear an 18 inch wheel. (Note that the other measurement tip was lined up with the "10" mark, but due to parallax, it looks like it doesn't. I moved the camera to have near zero parallax on the (other) measurement side.)

Analysis:

I was not able to measure the Aero wheel barrel inner diameter, but the Enkei Racing PF01 in 18 inch x 8.5 was reported as 433 mm barrel inner diameter by Tire Rack. 469 mm for 20 inch less 24 mm (x 2 for diameter) clearance of rear caliper to wheel would be an effective outer diameter to the caliper of 421 mm, which would be 11 mm smaller than the 433 and would fit at back. 469 less 29 mm (x 2 for diameter) front caliper clearance would be 411 mm, which would also be significantly smaller than 433 and would fit front.

*If the Aero has a similar inner diameter, then it would fit the PUO brakes. However if the Aero inner diameter is significantly smaller, it may not fit. Still need a measurement.
*
Feedback from @Mad Hungarian would be welcomed, along with measurements of the Aero inner diameter from anyone.

Measuring LR 19 inch wheels and standard brakes:

Went inside and measured 19 inch wheels, rotors, caliper on Long Range Model 3.





  








IMG_20180726_161848089




__
JeffC


__
Jul 27, 2018




19 inch wheel





Factory 19





  








IMG_20180726_162238791




__
JeffC


__
Jul 27, 2018




19 inch wheel barrel inside diameter





19 inch wheel barrel inner diameter 444 mm. That would be about 25 mm smaller than the barrel inner diameter of the 20 inch wheel, which seems correct.





  








IMG_20180726_162706267




__
JeffC


__
Jul 27, 2018







Rear rotor diameter ~331 mm (again, could be 332 mm, a standard Brembo size)

(Did not measure front rotor, believed to be 320 mm.)





  








IMG_20180726_162112786




__
JeffC


__
Jul 27, 2018




rear caliper to 19 inch wheel clearance





Rear caliper to 19 inch wheel clearance about 26 to 27 mm; might actually clear some 17 inch wheels.

Since the 19 inch wheel's 444 mm barrel inner diameter is much larger than the PUO caliper effective outer diameters of 421 and 411 mm, *the 19 inch wheel should fit PUO brakes.*

@Sasha Anis May I ask you to please measure the radius to the outside of the caliper of the 365 mm rotor upgrade so I can confirm it won't fit the 18 inch Enkei barrel inner diameter of 433 mm?


----------



## ppower

Sorry, but at this point, it looks like you’re trying to fit a square into a circle. So close, but I think it’s time to give up on using 18’s as u fortunate as that is. The good news is that big wheels aren’t being used for the sake of looking big.


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## JeffC

ppower said:


> Sorry, but at this point, it looks like you're trying to fit a square into a circle. So close, but I think it's time to give up on using 18's as u fortunate as that is. The good news is that big wheels aren't being used for the sake of looking big.


You may be right. There seems to be no easy way to fit upgraded brakes with some 18s, aside from Sasha's 320 mm rotors.


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## Alighieri256

JeffC said:


> You may be right. There seems to be no easy way to fit upgraded brakes with the 18s, aside from Sasha's 320 mm rotors.
> 
> I edited my post above quite a bit and will probably not get PUO, but will get Sasha's 365 mm rotor upgrade for use with 19 inch racing wheels. The PUO rear calipers may not fit even 19s.


469 - (2 * 24) = 421. A 444 barrel diameter should fit.

24mm clearance from rim to caliper is delta R, but your math is treating it as delta D.


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## JeffC

Alighieri256 said:


> 469 - (2 * 24) = 421. A 444 barrel diameter should fit.
> 
> 24mm clearance from rim to caliper is delta R, but your math is treating it as delta D.


Thanks much for the correction. You're right of course. I'm editing my post again. 

As a check, a 19 inch wheel would only be about a half inch smaller in radius than 20 inch, not a whole inch. Since the tightest clearance is just under an inch, a half inch smaller wheel such as the factory 19 would fit.

However an 18 might not fit, depending on its construction. The Enkei 18 I mention above would fit.


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## ppower

Where have you been able to look up inner barrel diameters? If the PF01 doesn’t work out, the RPF1 19” weighs less than the PF01 18”. Heck, that’s where some extra light RPF1 would be awesome. Only 17lbs each.


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## RallyRex

@Sasha Anis, will the stock 18s work with your 365mm rotors if modest wheel spacers are used? I ask because you mentioned that the kit pushes the calipers outward. I saw someone using 10 mm spacers in front, and 20 mm rear with the stock wheels.


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## JeffC

ppower said:


> Where have you been able to look up inner barrel diameters? If the PF01 doesn't work out, the RPF1 19" weighs less than the PF01 18". Heck, that's where some extra light RPF1 would be awesome. Only 17lbs each.


Thanks much! I emailed Tire Rack for the PF01 diameter. Will ask them about some more wheels that are 18 x 9 since @Mad Hungarian thought 255/40-18s would fit 18x9 at front.


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## JeffC

RallyRex said:


> @Sasha Anis, will the stock 18s work with your 365mm rotors if modest wheel spacers are used? I ask because you mentioned that the kit pushes the calipers outward. I saw someone using 10 mm spacers in front, and 20 mm rear with the stock wheels.


Based on my measurements, I'd expect it might be the radial distance of the caliper that won't clear the Aeros, not the axial distance. Hopefully Sasha will chime in.


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## Zippo

I'm still on the fence over Performance with or without the $5k "Performance Plus" package. If I go with 18" Aeros I'll end up ordering new tires (~$1k), I'd like to have the calipers professionally painted red ($500-$900), and I want a spoiler ($300-$800). At that point I'm most of the way to the Performance package. I assume if I do these mods they will add little value to the vehicle, whereas the upgrade package might hold it's value over time (wishful thinking?). I guess this is my way of justifying the package 

When I test drove a P3D the other day I was kind of hoping the 20" wheels would be a rough ride so that I'd feel better about the 18" Aeros. Surprisingly the ride was very smooth - even better than my BMW M-Sport with adaptive suspension on 19" wheels.


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## JeffC

Zippo said:


> I'm still on the fence over Performance with or without the $5k "Performance Plus" package. If I go with 18" Aeros I'll end up ordering new tires (~$1k), I'd like to have the calipers professionally painted red ($500-$900), and I want a spoiler ($300-$800). At that point I'm most of the way to the Performance package. I assume if I do these mods they will add little value to the vehicle, whereas the upgrade package might hold it's value over time (wishful thinking?). I guess this is my way of justifying the package
> 
> When I test drove a P3D the other day I was kind of hoping the 20" wheels would be a rough ride so that I'd feel better about the 18" Aeros. Surprisingly the ride was very smooth - even better than my BMW M-Sport with adaptive suspension on 19" wheels.


I'm definitely still on the fence too. I'd definitely like to upgrade the wheels and tires, but would also like to have racing brakes that can fit the Aeros. (I want to use Aeros with the energy efficiency-biased tires for long road trips, and racing wheels and tires for occasional race track use.) At this point, unless the Aeros fit PUO, I may end up with a single set of racing wheels and street performance tires.

Keep in mind that you can replace the stock fires with more performance oriented ones when you wear out the stock tires. However IMO using the stock Aero tires on P3D is a bit like putting Keds sneakers on Michael Jordan and asking him to perform well on a basketball court. Tires make a very major difference, at least on a race track. Note how very differently the car drives before and after on the track test: (And of course the full changes included all of wheels, tires, brakes and suspension springs, dampers and some links. However tires are a very major part of the equation.)





The PUO Michelin Pilot Sport 4S on the 20 inch wheels are top performance pure street tires and should perform much better than the energy tires on the Aeros. Definitely recommend them for that purpose.

One thing people seem to forget is that the Aeros may ride relatively hard due to the initial high pressures used, and the energy efficiency design bias. In other words, the slightly hard ride with Aeros could be a result of trying to be more energy efficient.

Thanks so much for the driving impressions of Performance with PUO!  Good to hear the PUO rides so well. It seems they tuned the P/PUO for some comfort. But how did it handle in (hard) turns. etc.?


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## Zippo

JeffC said:


> Thanks so much for the driving impressions of Performance with PUO!  Good to hear the PUO rides so well. It seems they tuned the P/PUO for some comfort. But how did it handle in (hard) turns. etc.?


I didn't push it to it's limits but it stayed planted very well with minimal body roll. Steering was stiffer than my F32 BMW in sport mode (in a good way). Regenerative braking on the highest setting wasn't as intrusive as I thought it would be. Acceleration was exhilarating with 4 people in the car and 80% charge.


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## Mad Hungarian

JeffC said:


> TLDR: I measured the front Performance Upgrade Option front rotor diameter at 355 mm (which is also a highly standard size, including from Brembo), and the rear at 332 mm. The front caliper to wheel clearance is large enough to probably fit an 18 inch wheel, but perhaps ironically the *rear* caliper to wheel clearance may not fit an 18. However the barrel inner diameter of different wheels can vary by construction, so some 18s may fit while others may not.
> 
> Pictures, measurements, and analysis below:
> 
> 
> Measuring PUO wheels and brakes:
> 
> 
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> IMG_20180726_155659505
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> 20 inch wheel
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> Above 20 inch wheel with red PUO caliper.
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> Jul 27, 2018
> 
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> 
> 20 inch wheel barrel inner diameter
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Above: 20 inch wheel barrel inner diameter near plane of rotor I measured as 469 mm. Made multiple measurements. Since the measuring tape has a tab at 0, I started all measurements at the 10 cm = 100 mm line, so all measurements on tape should have 100 mm subtracted.
> 
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> JeffC
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> Jul 27, 2018
> 
> 
> 
> 
> measurement caliper for inside diameter
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Above: Measurement set up for rotor outer diameter. (I made my measurement caliper from some Aluminum bar stock, wing nuts, and plastic shelf holders from hardware store. It worked adequately and was reasonably repeatable. I made the caliper as perpendicular to the wheels/rotors/calipers, etc., as possible when measuring and gently moved the measuring tips to just clear the thing under measurement.)
> 
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> Above: PUO front rotor diameter 355 mm
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> Jul 27, 2018
> 
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> 
> rear performance rotor diameter 333 mm
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> 
> Above: PUO rear rotor diameter 332 to 333 mm. (332 appears to be a standard Brembo diameter, so it could be 332.)
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> JeffC
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> Jul 27, 2018
> 
> 
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> 
> front caliper to wheel clearance
> 
> 
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> 
> 
> Above: Front caliper to wheel clearance at about 29 mm is more than an inch and therefore would probably fit 18 inch wheel. (Note that the other measurement tip was lined up with the "10" mark, but due to parallax, it looks like it doesn't. I moved the camera to have near zero parallax on the (other) measurement side.)
> 
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> Jul 27, 2018
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rear caliper to wheel clearance
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Above: However rear caliper to wheel clearance was less than 25 mm and therefore may not clear an 18 inch wheel. (Note that the other measurement tip was lined up with the "10" mark, but due to parallax, it looks like it doesn't. I moved the camera to have near zero parallax on the (other) measurement side.)
> 
> Analysis:
> 
> I was not able to measure the Aero wheel barrel inner diameter, but the Enkei Racing PF01 in 18 inch x 8.5 was reported as 433 mm barrel inner diameter by Tire Rack. 469 mm for 20 inch less 24 mm (x 2 for diameter) clearance of rear caliper to wheel would be an effective outer diameter to the caliper of 421 mm, which would be 11 mm smaller than the 433 and would fit at back. 469 less 29 mm (x 2 for diameter) front caliper clearance would be 411 mm, which would also be significantly smaller than 433 and would fit front.
> 
> *If the Aero has a similar inner diameter, then it would fit the PUO brakes. However if the Aero inner diameter is significantly smaller, it may not fit. Still need a measurement.
> *
> Feedback from @Mad Hungarian would be welcomed, along with measurements of the Aero inner diameter from anyone.
> 
> Measuring LR 19 inch wheels and standard brakes:
> 
> Went inside and measured 19 inch wheels, rotors, caliper on Long Range Model 3.
> 
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> 19 inch wheel barrel inside diameter
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> 19 inch wheel barrel inner diameter 444 mm. That would be about 25 mm smaller than the barrel inner diameter of the 20 inch wheel, which seems correct.
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> Rear rotor diameter ~331 mm (again, could be 332 mm, a standard Brembo size)
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> (Did not measure front rotor, believed to be 320 mm.)
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> rear caliper to 19 inch wheel clearance
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> 
> Rear caliper to 19 inch wheel clearance about 26 to 27 mm; might actually clear some 17 inch wheels.
> 
> Since the 19 inch wheel's 444 mm barrel inner diameter is much larger than the PUO caliper effective outer diameters of 421 and 411 mm, *the 19 inch wheel should fit PUO brakes.*
> 
> @Sasha Anis May I ask you to please measure the radius to the outside of the caliper of the 365 mm rotor upgrade so I can confirm it won't fit the 18 inch Enkei barrel inner diameter of 433 mm?


Nice work!!
So we now know that these are the infamous 355mm front rotors mentioned in the early owner's manual. And I agree with your assessment that it's actually the PUP rears that appear to be causing the issue for 18".
My guess at this point is that Duals and the non-PUP P3D will have the same brakes as RWD. The hunt continues...


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## MountainPass

@JeffC - I also *love* the aero 18's and efficient tires. I just think it's so impressive how efficient the car is and I would not want to do anything to take away from that efficiency, and how hard Tesla worked on that.

For that reason right now we're just swapping our brake kit on at the track. Possibly in the future, there will be a 19" wheel with some aero caps that are as efficient as OEM, but until then I think we'll keep swapping! It only takes about 15 minutes per side once you've done it.

When we went to the track the other day it took one person one hour to swap the wheels, change the rotors and calipers and also change the front pads. Obviously, you could do it before heading to the track as well!


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## JeffC

Mad Hungarian said:


> Nice work!!
> So we now know that these are the infamous 355mm front rotors mentioned in the early owner's manual. And I agree with your assessment that it's actually the PUP rears that appear to be causing the issue for 18".
> My guess at this point is that Duals and the non-PUP P3D will have the same brakes as RWD. The hunt continues...


Thanks! If you can find the barrel inner diameter of the Aero, we can tell if it would fit the PUO brakes.

Also if you can help find 18s with circa 430 mm barrel inner diameter to clear an effective 421 rear caliper diameter and appropriate bolt circle and offsets, then we can start to figure out which 18s may fit PUO brakes. As I mentioned Tire Rack thought the Enkei PF01 18x8.5 would fit, but now I want 9s up front and probably 10s at back.


----------



## Gene B

Emailed Forgestar about their CF14 18" wheels and they state that they have 440mm barrel opening. Sounds like Forgestar may be an option for the Winter 18" wheel on the P3D. The wheels alone should cost just under $1500.
That means if we go for 235/45/18 Sottozero II, it's $223.78/tire
If we go for 235/40/19 Sottozero II, it's $240.33/tire
18" gives us 4.2" of sidewall for pothole handling, while 19" gives us 3.7" (not much)


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## Mad Hungarian

JeffC said:


> Thanks! If you can find the barrel inner diameter of the Aero, we can tell if it would fit the PUO brakes.
> 
> Also if you can help find 18s with circa 430 mm barrel inner diameter to clear an effective 421 rear caliper diameter and appropriate bolt circle and offsets, then we can start to figure out which 18s may fit PUO brakes. As I mentioned Tire Rack thought the Enkei PF01 18x8.5 would fit, but now I want 9s up front and probably 10s at back.


No cars with Aeros handy at the moment, although I might be getting one in next week for a "project", so I will be sure to grab measurements then.

The problem with trying to compare the barrel clearance of a wheel to the max height of a caliper is that these dimensions are not uniform across the plane that concerns us. To give an example, here's a cross section of one of our 18x10.0 wheels. As you will see the barrel has a visible taper to it. I've inserted a red vertical line to denote the point at which it offers enough Y-factor (the industry term for barrel clearance) to be able to work with the caliper height you've given. Note that this line appears at about 10 mm inwards along the X-axis from the wheel's mounting pad.









The maximum height of the caliper occurs in specific spot along that X-axis as well, and we really need to know where that is in order to validate the fitment.
If the caliper only reaches max height at the red line or further towards the wheel's inner lip (to the left), everything is fine. However if the max height of the caliper is any closer to the plane of the mounting pad - or worse, past it towards the right - then it isn't going to work. This wheel example has got fairly good Y-factor numbers that are representative of a lot of wheels this size, but the barrel form can still vary quite a bit from model to model, some have a steady taper like this, others are relatively cylindrical with a sudden step down for the drop-center (that dip where the tire is installed). The only way I'd feel really comfortable recommending anything would be to have a full caliper profile, which I will definitely be scanning as soon as we get a P3D PUP in the area.
Likewise, if a wheel manufacturer gives you an total inner diameter or Y-factor dimension without reference to where that clearance is available along the X-axis, it won't give you the full story due to the factors described above.


----------



## JeffC

Mad Hungarian said:


> No cars with Aeros handy at the moment, although I might be getting one in next week for a "project", so I will be sure to grab measurements then.
> 
> The problem with trying to compare the barrel clearance of a wheel to the max height of a caliper is that these dimensions are not uniform across the plane that concerns us. To give an example, here's a cross section of one of our 18x10.0 wheels. As you will see the barrel has a visible taper to it. I've inserted a red vertical line to denote the point at which it offers enough Y-factor (the industry term for barrel clearance) to be able to work with the caliper height you've given. Note that this line appears at about 10 mm inwards along the X-axis from the wheel's mounting pad.
> View attachment 12499
> 
> 
> The maximum height of the caliper occurs in specific spot along that X-axis as well, and we really need to know where that is in order to validate the fitment.
> If the caliper only reaches max height at the red line or further towards the wheel's inner lip (to the left), everything is fine. However if the max height of the caliper is any closer to the plane of the mounting pad - or worse, past it towards the right - then it isn't going to work. This wheel example has got fairly good Y-factor numbers that are representative of a lot of wheels this size, but the barrel form can still vary quite a bit from model to model, some have a steady taper like this, others are relatively cylindrical with a sudden step down for the drop-center (that dip where the tire is installed). The only way I'd feel really comfortable recommending anything would be to have a full caliper profile, which I will definitely be scanning as soon as we get a P3D PUP in the area.
> Likewise, if a wheel manufacturer gives you an total inner diameter or Y-factor dimension without reference to where that clearance is available along the X-axis, it won't give you the full story due to the factors described above.


Agree barrels aren't necessarily the same inner diameter at all points, and I tried to measure the barrel near the plane of the rotor. Yes, the calipers are a bit pointy and appear to have a minimum clearance at the outside corners. That was from using my measuring calipers as feeler gauges.


----------



## Mad Hungarian

JeffC said:


> Agree barrels aren't necessarily the same inner diameter at all points, and I tried to measure the barrel near the plane of the rotor. Yes, the calipers are a bit pointy and appear to have a minimum clearance at the outside corners. That was from using my measuring calipers as feeler gauges.


Well it's a good jumping-off point for now, but we'll need full across-the-board numbers for both the Aero barrel and the PUP calipers before we can definitevely say what works.


----------



## Cbutters

Let us know when you get those 18" Aero wheel measurements in. I'm hoping there might be some solution for Aero 18s on the performance package. (even if it is shaving down the edge of a caliper and repainting.... ????)


----------



## Mad Hungarian

Cbutters said:


> Let us know when you get those 18" Aero wheel measurements in. I'm hoping there might be some solution for Aero 18s on the performance package. (even if it is shaving down the edge of a caliper and repainting.... ????)


Will do!


----------



## JeffC

Had my Performance Model 3 test drive yesterday, and posted about it separately at:

https://teslaownersonline.com/threads/performance-model-3-test-drive-notes-quick-review.8034/

Also took a closer look at both the 20 inch PUO wheels and the Aeros and both do taper down in diameter towards the spokes. When I measured earlier, I measured about 20 mm inboard of the visible line cast into the wheels. Tried to measure the barrel near the caliper high point, but due to the taper, properly would need the full wheel profile to check the fit to the calipers.

Really the easiest test would be to carefully do a check fit of Aero onto the rear PUO calipers to see if there's interference. Maybe tape over the high spots on the caliper to prevent any contact to the finish.


----------



## samson

Hoping the 18" Aero fit the Model 3 DMP ( Dual Motor Performance). 

I will be getting mine next weekend and requested to swap 18" AERO to see the fitment before I buy at Tesla store, since there isnt clear evidence that it wont fit. Tesla usually wouldnt design that isnt compatible with the line up but will see.


----------



## samson

The fact that Tesla Model 3 has 2 Winter tire set one 18" and 19" make me think the 19" is for the Performance versions...... sigh


----------



## Mad Hungarian

samson said:


> Hoping the 18" Aero fit the Model 3 DMP ( Dual Motor Performance).
> 
> I will be getting mine next weekend and requested to swap 18" AERO to see the fitment before I buy at Tesla store, since there isnt clear evidence that it wont fit. Tesla usually wouldnt design that isnt compatible with the line up but will see.


They fit the base Performance 3, in fact that's what comes with the car, but apparently not the bigger brakes that come with the Performance Upgrade Option. It remains to be seen if another variety of 18" wheel can be made to fit with PUO.


----------



## Mad Hungarian

samson said:


> The fact that Tesla Model 3 has 2 Winter tire set one 18" and 19" make me think the 19" is for the Performance versions...... sigh


That is correct, however that needs to more precisely read " 19" is for Performance versions with PUO".


----------



## Matex

I am a reservation holder two years ago and the delivery estimate here in Europe is early 2019. My concern is about the narrow options range to choose of.
As many of you, I intend to configure AWD with 18" wheels and buy aftermarket 20" wheels.
But the options don't include air suspension and other color seats like cream.
Do you know if, without those options, can I delay my order, when they call me?
I am not in a hurry since my current car is in excelent shape (BMW5) but I decided to go electric.
Model 3 can beat BMW3 performance but, unfortunately, it is far away from the available options for customers!


----------



## JeffC

Matex said:


> I am a reservation holder two years ago and the delivery estimate here in Europe is early 2019. My concern is about the narrow options range to choose of.
> As many of you, I intend to configure AWD with 18" wheels and buy aftermarket 20" wheels.
> But the options don't include air suspension and other color seats like cream.
> Do you know if, without those options, can I delay my order, when they call me?
> I am not in a hurry since my current car is in excelent shape (BMW5) but I decided to go electric.
> Model 3 can beat BMW3 performance but, unfortunately, it is far away from the available options for customers!


If you are a reservation holder, you can hold it basically forever. Once you're allowed to configure, you can do that at any time.

After you order, you can update your order at any time up until a VIN is assigned, meaning they are beginning to build the car. However making changes to your order may lose your place in the build queue and cause your car to be built later. (It's like leaving a queue and rejoining at the end of the queue, but with some other factors considered. Place in the queue is somewhat complex and based on location, configuration, previous Tesla ownership, reservation date, etc.)

However, once you order, if you cancel the order, then you forfeit (lose) the $2500 order fee, which is like a construction bond (a guarantee that you will take delivery of the car you ordered).

If you want to wait for more options, simply hold onto your reservation and wait until more options become available, before ordering.

There may be an air suspension option, and the white interior may become more widely available later. Other interior colors may also become available as time passes.

As an aside, I was not sure if I would like the white interior, but since it's partially black and partially white, I like it very much. Would probably prefer a cream interior also, but the black with white is very tasteful and not overly bright, since it's a mixture of both.

The Premium White Interior option has white seats, white dashboard in place of the wood veneer, and white door panels where there is black Alcantara on the Premium Black Interior.

P.S. You may want to post your questions on a thread in the ordering forum. This thread is in the technical forum, and this thread is a discussion of technical details about the Performance Upgrade Option of the Performance Model 3; pretty specific. 

P.P.S. Super happy you're getting a Tesla. These are excellent cars in very many ways. I say that objectively and not as a fan.


----------



## Matex

JeffC said:


> If you are a reservation holder, you can hold it basically forever. Once you're allowed to configure, you can do that at any time.
> 
> After you order, you can update your order at any time up until a VIN is assigned, meaning they are beginning to build the car. However making changes to your order may lose your place in the build queue and cause your car to be built later. (It's like leaving a queue and rejoining at the end of the queue, but with some other factors considered. Place in the queue is somewhat complex and based on location, configuration, previous Tesla ownership, reservation date, etc.)
> 
> However, once you order, if you cancel the order, then you forfeit (lose) the $2500 order fee, which is like a construction bond (a guarantee that you will take delivery of the car you ordered).
> 
> If you want to wait for more options, simply hold onto your reservation and wait until more options become available, before ordering.
> 
> There may be an air suspension option, and the white interior may become more widely available later. Other interior colors may also become available as time passes.
> 
> As an aside, I was not sure if I would like the white interior, but since it's partially black and partially white, I like it very much. Would probably prefer a cream interior also, but the black with white is very tasteful and not overly bright, since it's a mixture of both.
> 
> The Premium White Interior option has white seats, white dashboard in place of the wood veneer, and white door panels where there is black Alcantara on the Premium Black Interior.
> 
> P.S. You may want to post your questions on a thread in the ordering forum. This thread is in the technical forum, and this thread is a discussion of technical details about the Performance Upgrade Option of the Performance Model 3; pretty specific.
> 
> P.P.S. Super happy you're getting a Tesla. These are excellent cars in very many ways. I say that objectively and not as a fan.


Thanks very much JeffC. You are very helpful. I considered already the option white seats, but I don't like the white dashboard.
I am going to look for the thread in the ordering forum, as you advise. Sorry my mistake.
Regards


----------



## JeffC

Matex said:


> Thanks very much JeffC. You are very helpful. I considered already the option white seats, but I don't like the white dashboard.
> I am going to look for the thread in the ordering forum, as you advise. Sorry my mistake.
> Regards


No need to apologize at all, Matex. I'm very glad to help a little bit!

Also, the white dash is a non-glare finish, like satin. It was not really reflective.


----------



## JeffC

Udpate: a neighbor very kindly let me measure his Aero wheels and brakes.





  








IMG_20180807_172348835_HDR




__
JeffC


__
Aug 8, 2018







Above: rear Aero wheel without Aero covers, but with lug nut caps and center cap.





  








IMG_20180807_172342057




__
JeffC


__
Aug 8, 2018







Above: rear rotor measures a bit over 335 mm. Call it the expected 335. (Note that when I measured the rear PUO rotor, it definitely measured smaller and closer to 332.)





  








IMG_20180807_173514203




__
JeffC


__
Aug 8, 2018







Above: it's hard to see from the photo, but the rear caliper clearance is about 8mm. It was so tight that I could not measure it.





  








IMG_20180807_173158082




__
JeffC


__
Aug 8, 2018







Above: rear wheel barrel inner diameter measured about 418 mm near plane of rotor.

Not shown, due to upload limit hit, but the front rotor measured about 321 mm. Call it the expected 320.

Not shown, front wheel barrel inner diameter measured a bit over 416 mm near plane of rotor.





  








IMG_20180807_174234325




__
JeffC


__
Aug 8, 2018







Above: front caliper clearance to wheel is much larger than rear, perhaps 20mm or more. I did not measure it, as the rear caliper clearance will be the limiting factor.

Quoting myself from earlier:


> I was not able to measure the Aero wheel barrel inner diameter, but the Enkei Racing PF01 in 18 inch x 8.5 was reported as 433 mm barrel inner diameter by Tire Rack. 469 mm for 20 inch less 24 mm (x 2 for diameter) clearance of rear caliper to wheel would be an effective outer diameter to the caliper of 421 mm, which would be 11 mm smaller than the 433 and would fit at back. 469 less 29 mm (x 2 for diameter) front caliper clearance would be 411 mm, which would also be significantly smaller than 433 and would fit front.
> 
> *If the Aero has a similar inner diameter, then it would fit the PUO brakes. However if the Aero inner diameter is significantly smaller, it may not fit. Still need a measurement.*


If the effective diameter of the PUO 355 mm front rotor and caliper is about 411 mm, then it might fit inside the Aero wheel, but be somewhat tight with maybe a 3 to 5 mm clearance. If the PUO rear rotor and caliper effective diameter is about 421 mm, then it would not fit the Aero wheel.

Bottom line: if my additional measurements of the Aero wheel are correct it (again) won't fit *rear* PUO brakes, but would somewhat ironically might just fit at the front.

These measurements are far from perfect, but could be generally indicative.


----------



## Zippy_EV

First, I want to say I really appreciate all the threads I've been reading regarding wheels / tires and brakes on this forum.

I'm really struggling regarding the PUO decision. Right now I don't have it configured but am awaiting a call from my SA today. Like several of you I would love the efficiency of Aero wheels yet for HPDEs the upgraded brakes would be quite nice. (Yes, swapping out MPPs front rotors is another option...)

I haven't seen much discussion regarding this but after watching the MPP Model 3 video in Toronto I'm really looking forward to seeing a 9.5" ~20 lb wheel setup with 265/35R19 in all the corners. The staggered setup in the video had more understeer than I'd like. My preference is neutral handling. (In my high hp rwd car I'm used to light trail braking the entry to stick the front and rotate the car then progressively rolling into the throttle around the apex to invoke a hint of heavy throttle understeer then modulating the throttle to push to the track out. It makes me grin to think about it.)

I'd also really like to see an aftermarket 19" wheel implement aero covers. We can get the weight of the 19's down to 20ish lbs with aftermarket wheels but nobody seems to care about the aerodymanics. One can dream I suppose.

P.S. Background:
I've gone down the path of making a streetable car better and better for the track to the point that the car was wonderful on the track and pretty miserable on the street. This time the goal is to limit street compromise while having occasional fun at a HPDE.


----------



## JeffC

Zippy_EV said:


> First, I want to say I really appreciate all the threads I've been reading regarding wheels / tires and brakes on this forum.
> 
> I'm really struggling regarding the PUO decision. Right now I don't have it configured but am awaiting a call from my SA today. Like several of you I would love the efficiency of Aero wheels yet for HPDEs the upgraded brakes would be quite nice. (Yes, swapping out MPPs front rotors is another option...)
> 
> I haven't seen much discussion regarding this but after watching the MPP Model 3 video in Toronto I'm really looking forward to seeing a 9.5" ~20 lb wheel setup with 265/35R19 in all the corners. The staggered setup in the video had more understeer than I'd like. My preference is neutral handling. (In my high hp rwd car I'm used to light trail braking the entry to stick the front and rotate the car then progressively rolling into the throttle around the apex to invoke a hint of heavy throttle understeer then modulating the throttle to push to the track out. It makes me grin to think about it.)
> 
> I'd also really like to see an aftermarket 19" wheel implement aero covers. We can get the weight of the 19's down to 20ish lbs with aftermarket wheels but nobody seems to care about the aerodymanics. One can dream I suppose.
> 
> P.S. Background:
> I've gone down the path of making a streetable car better and better for the track to the point that the car was wonderful on the track and pretty miserable on the street. This time the goal is to limit street compromise while having occasional fun at a HPDE.


Thanks much for your feedback and kind words! I'm really enjoying this forum and the friendly spirit here.

Having driven the PUO, I highly recommend it:

https://teslaownersonline.com/threads/performance-model-3-test-drive-notes-quick-review.8034/

PUO has an excellent balance of street comfort with good handling. I strongly agree with the Tesla design engineer's comments in the Road & Track track mode review:

https://www.roadandtrack.com/new-cars/road-tests/a22625274/tesla-model-3-performance-track-test/

"It's easy to make a car that handles well. But if you want to make it go over bumps and ride well, be comfortable, that is really difficult to do," Lars Moravy, Director of Chassis Engineering tells me trackside. "We worked long and hard to make it be able to go around the track fast, be agile, be responsive, but not shatter your teeth out."

Tesla put a lot of good work into PUO, and from the sample of different surfaces and accelerations I drove, it worked very well. I went back and forth in ordering PUO or not, but after driving it and seeing some of the challenges of aftermarket suspensions, am glad to at least start with the factory PUO suspension:

https://teslaownersonline.com/threads/lowering-your-model-3-experiences-feedback-satisfaction.6919

I'd really like to get Aeros too, but it seems they won't fit the rear. I sort of wanted to look into Moon Disc aerodynamic wheel covers for the Enkeis (and/or 19s). The difficulty is in mounting them very securely, which could take some engineering:

https://www.mooneyesusa.com/MOON-Disc-s/211.htm

Regarding the MPP track experiences, there are two relevant videos. The first one with much understeer was arguably due to inappropriate technique from a guy accustomed to pushing a car hard into turns due to front wheel drive experience:






When Sasha did the hot lap with his track mode traction and stability control defeat, he drove it in a much more balanced way, which was also probably much faster:





Note the almost total lack of understeer on the hot lap, with staggered wheel/tires.

Regarding wheel sizes, Mad Hungarian (who works in the aftermarket wheel industry) thought 9 inch wheels with a 30 mm offset and 255 tires would be the widest that could fit up front, so I was planning to get either square 18/19x9 or staggered with 9 at front and 10 or 10.5 at back. References:

https://teslaownersonline.com/threa...e-happening-per-elon.6849/page-42#post-128719

and above. Also the main wheel and tire thread at:

https://teslaownersonline.com/threads/wheel-and-tire-tech.5626/page-3#post-105683

Note that Sasha may have gotten some tire rub with his aggressive offsets in the first video.

I too have modified many cars to be too compromised to the track and too harsh on the street, and I don't want that for Model 3. I want to track the car, but also use it for long, Supercharged road trips. Considering all of the above, PUO may be the best solution for that, and I recommend it for your goals also.

The only immediate change I plan is Enkei racing wheels and either Michelin Pilot Sport 4S tires for more street use or Bridgestone RE-71R for more track use.


----------



## Zippy_EV

Good points regarding driving style in the understeer video. I hadn't seen Sasha's drifting video. It looked much better. 

In the first video I really thought I heard Sasha briefly mention that 265s might work. Would be nice as the circumference is perfect.

I very much agree that my past suspension modifications have been obvious trades rather than straightforward gains. It's not easy.

RE-71R reviews say they are great if the track is dry. PS4S is better wet. Probably pretty safe to say the track will be dry in CA vs the midwest. Some of my favorite track days are in the wet on Hoosier Wet H2Os. Tire really is everything. This is why I have four sets of wheels in the garage for my track car. But again, I'm trying to avoid that spiral as that many wheels require a truck and trailer.

I think I'll run the stock 20's until we have more options tested.


----------



## VFRMike

JeffC said:


> However, once you order, if you cancel the order, then you forfeit (lose) the $2500 order fee, which is like a construction bond (a guarantee that you will take delivery of the car you ordered).


Please correct me if I am wrong. However, I believe that once you order you will also lose your $1000 reservation deposit if the order is canceled.


----------



## JeffC

VFRMike said:


> Please correct me if I am wrong. However, I believe that once you order you will also lose your $1000 reservation deposit if the order is canceled.


My order agreement mentions forfeiting only the Order Payment, not the Reservation Payment:

"Order; Nonrefundable Order Payment; Changes. After you submit your completed order and the options you selected become available in production, we will begin the process of matching your order to a vehicle and coordinating your Vehicle delivery. Your Order Payment covers the cost of these activities and other processing costs and is not a deposit for the Vehicle. Your Order Payment is fully refundable only until your order is matched to a Vehicle, at which point it becomes nonrefundable. Any changes to your Vehicle Configuration, delivery location or expected delivery time after the Order Date will be difficult, if not impossible, for us to accommodate. If you want to make changes to your order, we will try to accommodate your request. If we accept your request, you may be subject to a non-refundable $500 change fee and potential price increases for any pricing adjustments made since your original Order Date. Any changes made by you to your Vehicle Configuration, including changes to the delivery location or estimated delivery date, will be reflected in a subsequent Vehicle Configuration that will form part of this Agreement.

Cancellation; Default. We incur significant costs in managing your order, and locating and coordinating delivery logistics for your Vehicle. We may also incur significant costs for remarketing and reselling the Vehicle, including additional coordination, logistics and transport costs. If you cancel or default in this Agreement after your order is matched to a Vehicle, you will not be refunded your Order Payment as it has already been earned by us in taking and processing your order and preparing your Vehicle for delivery. You acknowledge that the Order Payment amount is a fair and reasonable estimate of the actual damages that we have incurred or may incur as a result of your breach of this Agreement, damages that are otherwise impracticable or extremely difficult to determine. When you take delivery of the vehicle we will provide a credit to the final purchase price of your Vehicle equivalent to the amount of the Order Payment you paid. This Order Payment and this Agreement are not made or entered into in anticipation of or pending any conditional sale contract."

It doesn't seem to mention anything about the Reservation Payment, which I believe is fully refundable before you order. Not sure about after ordering though. Could be a separate agreement handling the Reservation Payment.


----------



## JeffC

Zippy_EV said:


> Good points regarding driving style in the understeer video. I hadn't seen Sasha's drifting video. It looked much better.
> 
> In the first video I really thought I heard Sasha briefly mention that 265s might work. Would be nice as the circumference is perfect.
> 
> I very much agree that my past suspension modifications have been obvious trades rather than straightforward gains. It's not easy.
> 
> RE-71R reviews say they are great if the track is dry. PS4S is better wet. Probably pretty safe to say the track will be dry in CA vs the midwest. Some of my favorite track days are in the wet on Hoosier Wet H2Os. Tire really is everything. This is why I have four sets of wheels in the garage for my track car. But again, I'm trying to avoid that spiral as that many wheels require a truck and trailer.
> 
> I think I'll run the stock 20's until we have more options tested.


Note that Sasha's run was with most of the traction control and stability control disabled. This is somewhat similar to Tesla's beta Track Mode in that both should allow larger tire slip angles.

http://insideracingtechnology.com/tirebkexerpt2.htm

255 was the widest Mad Hungarian thought would fit at front. Could vary somewhat by tire brand/model. And the first Sasha video may have had a tire rub somewhere.

RE-71R is more of a soft compound, near racing tire. It apparently works better in mild rain than other racing/near racing tires. Michelin 4S is more of a maximum performance street tire than a racing tire, so kind of apples and oranges.

I too am trying to avoid having multiple sets of wheels. (I generally don't drive in snow.) In an ideal world the Aeros would have fit and I would have put Michelin 4S on them, and have Enkei racing wheels with RE-71R or even softer-compound racing tires for track days. Now I'm trying to do it with one set and probably RE-71R or 4S for both street and track.


----------



## VFRMike

@JeffC Yes, the $1000 deposit is refundable prior to ordering but not (according to a Tesla owner adviser) once the order is made. Thus, $3500 loss if a reservation holder changes their mind or simply doesn't end up qualifying for the loan.


----------



## Zippy_EV

JeffC said:


> Note that Sasha's run was with most of the traction control and stability control disabled. This is somewhat similar to Tesla's beta Track Mode in that both should allow larger tire slip angles.
> 
> http://insideracingtechnology.com/tirebkexerpt2.htm
> 
> 255 was the widest Mad Hungarian thought would fit at front. Could vary somewhat by tire brand/model. And the first Sasha video may have had a tire rub somewhere.
> 
> RE-71R is more of a soft compound, near racing tire. It apparently works better in mild rain than other racing/near racing tires. Michelin 4S is more of a maximum performance street tire than a racing tire, so kind of apples and oranges.
> 
> I too am trying to avoid having multiple sets of wheels. (I generally don't drive in snow.) In an ideal world the Aeros would have fit and I would have put Michelin 4S on them, and have Enkei racing wheels with RE-71R or even softer-compound racing tires for track days. Now I'm trying to do it with one set and probably RE-71R or 4S for both street and track.


I sure hope that it was the 275s in the back that were rubbing rather than the 245s in the front. Not sure what offsets Sasha was running on those 9" fronts and 10" rears.

I started looking at Hoosier R7s (I have used them for years. If one is going to have dedicated track wheels, R compounds corner so much better) but the load index is quite low on them unless one moves to the 20s in sizes that will fit on a 3. If the stock 20" Pilot Sport 4S has a Load Index of 92, does that mean that we are OK to run any tire with at least a 92 load index provided it meets our other criteria?


----------



## JeffC

Zippy_EV said:


> I sure hope that it was the 275s in the back that were rubbing rather than the 245s in the front. Not sure what offsets Sasha was running on those 9" fronts and 10" rears.
> 
> I started looking at Hoosier R7s (I have used them for years. If one is going to have dedicated track wheels, R compounds corner so much better) but the load index is quite low on them unless one moves to the 20s in sizes that will fit on a 3. If the stock 20" Pilot Sport 4S has a Load Index of 92, does that mean that we are OK to run any tire with at least a 92 load index provided it meets our other criteria?


Quick recap:

All of the factory wheels use 235 mm tires front and rear.

At one point a prototype Performance Model 3 was spotted with 235 front and 275 rear on 20 inch wheels, but the factory production Performance Upgrade option uses 235s on 20s front and back.

@Mad Hungarian opined that 255 front and 295 rear on 9 (30 mm offset) and 10.5 inch wide wheels respectively was the largest that could fit at front while having a similar diameter at back.

I believe @Sasha Anis has not disclosed his exact tire sizes yet, but the fronts were mentioned as 245 and the rears as 275 on Advan RG3 19x9 and 19x10 in the first video. I think he had to use the excellent Bridgestone RE-71R due to his racing class rules. Those are relatively soft, but still arguably streetable since they have a 200 treadwear rating and can work in rain better than most dry racing tires. RE-71R also reportedly drive very well, and they seemed to work well in Sasha's track videos.

Sasha was using fairly aggressive offsets, and that may have contributed to the possible rubbing.

Hoosiers would be great for track use, where permitted by class rules, but, as we know, would not really be streetable. They're basically DOT legal nearly racing slicks. (Talking about dry track Hoosiers.)

Regarding Load Index, I think you're right that any tire that matches the stock tire's load index should be ok, but double check that with your tire seller and/or tire installer.

Also, different versions of a given tire model could have different load indices, so probably check the specification on the door panel or owner's manual. For example, Tire Rack has multiple different versions of the 4S in the same size as Tesla's, but they could potentially have different load indices.


----------



## Zippy_EV

JeffC said:


> Quick recap:
> 
> All of the factory wheels use 235 mm tires front and rear.
> 
> At one point a prototype Performance Model 3 was spotted with 235 front and 275 rear on 20 inch wheels, but the factory production Performance Upgrade option uses 235s on 20s front and back.
> 
> @Mad Hungarian opined that 255 front and 295 rear on 9 (30 mm offset) and 10.5 inch wide wheels respectively was the largest that could fit at front while having a similar diameter at back.
> 
> I believe @Sasha Anis has not disclosed his exact tire sizes yet. I think he had to use the excellent Bridgestone RE-71R due to his racing class rules. Those are relatively soft, but still arguably streetable since they have a 200 treadwear rating and can work in rain better than most dry racing tires. RE-71R also reportedly drive very well, and they seemed to work well in Sasha's track videos.
> 
> Sasha was using fairly aggressive offsets, and that may have contributed to the possible rubbing.
> 
> Hoosiers would be great for track use, where permitted by class rules, but, as we know, would not really be streetable. They're basically DOT legal nearly racing slicks. (Talking about dry track Hoosiers.)
> 
> Regarding Load Index, I think you're right that any tire that matches the stock tire's load index should be ok, but double check that with your tire seller and/or tire installer.
> 
> Also, different versions of a given tire model could have different load indices, so go with what's on the actual stock tire sidewall, as opposed to a tire catalog or web site for a similarly sized tire of the same model. For example, Tire Rack has multiple different versions of the 4S in the same size as Tesla's, but they could potentially have different load indices.


Fwiw, the exact tire widths and wheel widths were mentioned in Sasha's video. (The video also confirms the RE-71Rs if that was in doubt.)


----------



## JeffC

Zippy_EV said:


> Fwiw, the exact tire widths and wheel widths were mentioned in Sasha's video. (The video also confirms the RE-71Rs if that was in doubt.)


Thanks much. Went back and watched the video again and you're right. He said 245 and 275. Updating my reply above. (He didn't mention aspect ratios, but we can infer that it's the same as the prototype with stagger.)


----------



## MountainPass

Yes exactly right. And for the fast lap where we did a 1:18.9 we actually did something very silly. Which worked.

We took the 10" wide inside rear wheel and mounted it on the outside front  That is part of the reason why there was so little understeer in the video (I do think driving style plays into it as well). TMP is right corner dominant, so the losses in braking were far outweighed by the gains in right hand corners. 

I can confirm a 10" +35 with a 275 tire fits in the front with no rubbing even at full lock sliding around. This is a very aggressive fitment and something you'd only want to use on the track, but there is ample room to the knuckle and there was no rubbing to the fenders.

I now have 2 more 10" wheels on order to be able to run the square 275 tire on a 10" wheel all around for the track. It's an animal with that 275 up front. I would highly recommend it. A slightly less aggressive option is a 9.5 +35 all around with either a 255 or 265.


----------



## garsh

MountainPass Performance said:


> I now have 2 more 10" wheels on order to be able to run the square 275 tire on a 10" wheel all around for the track.


Wow. Please post several pics when you get those mounted.


----------



## JeffC

MountainPass Performance said:


> Yes exactly right. And for the fast lap where we did a 1:18.9 we actually did something very silly. Which worked.
> 
> We took the 10" wide inside rear wheel and mounted it on the outside front  That is part of the reason why there was so little understeer in the video (I do think driving style plays into it as well). TMP is right corner dominant, so the losses in braking were far outweighed by the gains in right hand corners.
> 
> I can confirm a 10" +35 with a 275 tire fits in the front with no rubbing even at full lock sliding around. This is a very aggressive fitment and something you'd only want to use on the track, but there is ample room to the knuckle and there was no rubbing to the fenders.
> 
> I now have 2 more 10" wheels on order to be able to run the square 275 tire on a 10" wheel all around for the track. It's an animal with that 275 up front. I would highly recommend it. A slightly less aggressive option is a 9.5 +35 all around with either a 255 or 265.


Thanks much Sasha! I may go with 9.5 inch wide wheels, +35 mm offset with 265 width tires front and back (square) then. Should be more than adequate and significantly more tire than the stock 235.

Also 265 seems a bit nearer to the stock diameter than 255.

Did you have any thoughts on the possible rub you heard on the track day with Speed Academy? 




Also note: Sasha mentioned a 15% - 20% efficiency loss presumably with Enkei PF01 and 265s. Reference:

https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/posts/3003607/

I'd probably attribute that to aerodynamic changes. I'm not sure I could live with that much range loss for street use, and I don't want to have 2 sets of wheels.... May want to see if Moon disc wheel covers can fit.


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## Zippy_EV

MountainPass Performance said:


> Yes exactly right. And for the fast lap where we did a 1:18.9 we actually did something very silly. Which worked.
> 
> We took the 10" wide inside rear wheel and mounted it on the outside front  That is part of the reason why there was so little understeer in the video (I do think driving style plays into it as well). TMP is right corner dominant, so the losses in braking were far outweighed by the gains in right hand corners.
> 
> I can confirm a 10" +35 with a 275 tire fits in the front with no rubbing even at full lock sliding around. This is a very aggressive fitment and something you'd only want to use on the track, but there is ample room to the knuckle and there was no rubbing to the fenders.
> 
> I now have 2 more 10" wheels on order to be able to run the square 275 tire on a 10" wheel all around for the track. It's an animal with that 275 up front. I would highly recommend it. A slightly less aggressive option is a 9.5 +35 all around with either a 255 or 265.


In that light it looks like 275/35R19 on 9.5" wheels would be an excellent choice for track use. Several tires in that size look interesting according to Tirerack. Happily the RE-71R is the tiniest bit taller than these other options):
Bridgestone Potenza RE-71R (26.6" and 784 revs / mile) - tread width 10" on a 9.5" rim
Michelin Pilot Sport Cup 2 (26.6" and 783 revs / mile) - tread width 9.5" on an a 11" rim
Michelin Pilot Sport 4S (26.6" and 783 revs / mile) - tread width 9.8" on a 9.5" rim
Toyo Proxes R888R (26.6" and 782 revs / mile) - tread width 10.4" on a 9.5" rim

I was assuming 9.5" wheels would be lighter than 10" wheels. Think the 10's would allow enough of a flatter contact patch to be beneficial vs weight?


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## MountainPass

275's are a bit too big for a 9.5" wheel. We've seen significant lap time improvements, not to mention steering response and feedback gains with a wider wheel. Generally speaking - fit the widest wheel you can for the tire you're running. 

In this case, the knuckle/fender are mostly limited by tire tread more than wheel width, so if you want to use a 275 I'd suggest mounting that on a 10" wheel. 

I agree in thinking the range loss is large part due to aero. However, the switch to the PS4S from the standard 18" Michelin will see a large difference as well. We'd really have to just do the tires on the 18" wheels to know for sure. It's so difficult since each tire size and specific tire build can have significant differences. Someone should test a normal PS4S in the 235 20" versus the Tesla spec tire. My money is on a significant range improvement with the Tesla spec tire.


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## Zippy_EV

MountainPass said:


> 275's are a bit too big for a 9.5" wheel. We've seen significant lap time improvements, not to mention steering response and feedback gains with a wider wheel. Generally speaking - fit the widest wheel you can for the tire you're running.
> 
> In this case, the knuckle/fender are mostly limited by tire tread more than wheel width, so if you want to use a 275 I'd suggest mounting that on a 10" wheel.
> 
> I agree in thinking the range loss is large part due to aero. However, the switch to the PS4S from the standard 18" Michelin will see a large difference as well. We'd really have to just do the tires on the 18" wheels to know for sure. It's so difficult since each tire size and specific tire build can have significant differences. Someone should test a normal PS4S in the 235 20" versus the Tesla spec tire. My money is on a significant range improvement with the Tesla spec tire.


Thanks for the info. If the tread is the limiting factor then the Proxes with their .4" wider tread might not work out so well. I hope someone else tries it / figures it out before I drop the coin.  Any idea if the RE-71R seem close enough that an extra .2" inboard and outboard would matter?

A nice article I found about the relationship between wheel widths and tires. Their rule of thumb says that the .5" wider wheel would gain approximately another .2" of section width. (Sidenote: I have happily run 275/40R17 for years on a 9.5" wheel - that said I had the wheels and was choosing tires for them rather than choosing the optimal pair.)


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## MountainPass

Zippy_EV said:


> Thanks for the info. If the tread is the limiting factor then the Proxes with their .4" wider tread might not work out so well. I hope someone else tries it / figures it out before I drop the coin.  Any idea if the RE-71R seem close enough that an extra .2" inboard and outboard would matter?
> 
> A nice article I found about the relationship between wheel widths and tires. Their rule of thumb says that the .5" wider wheel would gain approximately another .2" of section width. (Sidenote: I have happily run 275/40R17 for years on a 9.5" wheel - that said I had the wheels and was choosing tires for them rather than choosing the optimal pair.)


The other factor that always results in some "fun" is the discrepancy between the tire width specs from the manufacturer and the actual size of the tire. R888's like you mentioned above are notoriously wider than they should be! It is very annoying that you can order 3 different 275 tires and have 3 different widths! We always run a slight stretch to improve steering response and feedback, as do the OEM now.


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## JeffC

Agree the ride of PUO is surprisingly good. Did you see the Road & Track review of Performance Model 3 Track Mode? I totally agree with the Tesla engineer that it's very hard to get the balance of performance and comfort that good in the suspension, tires, etc., of PM3 with PUO.

Also agree Tesla's 20 inch wheel is probably heavy. By eyeball it looks heavy, compared to say an Enkei RF1 or PF01, which I plan to get in performance width. Downside of the latter is probably much lower range due to much higher drag. Sasha measured a ~15% - 20% range loss. So the Tesla 20 may have some aerodynamic benefits in addition to the possibly more efficient version of the Pilot Sport 4S on PUO.

An interesting combination would be the factory 4S on a light racing wheel, but it may have worse aero and still lose range.

Also agree 235 is a bit narrow. Probably they did that for better aerodynamics and better range.

I'd also like the Aero wheels and tires for road trips. However I've measured twice and it won't fit the rear PUO brakes, and someone tried mounting them on PUO. The front fit, but not the rear, as expected. Reference: https://teslaownersonline.com/threa...ot-fit-18-aero-wheels.7608/page-4#post-143675

Regarding 500 wear rating on 4S, I think someone saw 300, but need to confirm. May try to see at Tesla Store for myself.

Bottom line: I strongly recommend PUO despite the issues. It's a phenomenally well designed, tested and tuned combination, and that's very hard to do well.

P.S. If you're going to change it, change your order soon! My edit button is now GONE! They're trying to crank out cars this quarter it seems.


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## JeffC

mastre said:


> First thought was if they could pull off that kind of magic, why wouldn't they do it for all of their tire sizes? I wonder if the "Acoustic Tech" is also lip service; that would be meaningful in an EV. If both of those are true, getting MPS4Ses on my Aeros will not provide the same experience as the PUO MPS4S tires do (although performance should be on equal -- just louder, and wear quicker).
> 
> Therein lies my dilemma  Would be a no brainer if I could get a secondary set of Aeros for it. As it is, I'm currently against it and plan on getting MPS4Ses on the Aeros (possibly in 245mm width).


That seems like a good solution, though I would possibly stick with 235s to affect the diameter less. However, Performance Model 3 without the suspension and brake upgrades won't perform quite as well. The brake upgrade is really only noticeable on a race track most of the time. The slightly lower springs and maybe differently valved dampers might be a bit different. Either way, still a great car, and the tires would make the biggest difference over the factory energy tires on the Aeros.

I went to my Tesla store and the 4S are Treadwear 300, not 500. The "Acoustic Tech" _may_ refer to tread pattern, compound, belts, etc., and not the foam.

I looked at 3 different Performance Model 3s. All had the PUO and all had 300 treadware 4S. Pictures attached:


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## JeffC

I think the 500 treadware was (erroneously) mentioned on the Tire Rack catalog.

Agree lighter 18 inch wheels with similar width tires will accelerate and decelerate better due to lower mass, especially compared to the probably heavy stock PUO 20 inch wheels. None of the 18 through 20 inch tires used have particularly tall sidewalls, so should not be too much difference there. (They're all low profile tires in the stock sizes.)

That said, wider wheels and tires can enable more performance, particularly in turns, due to a larger (wider) contact patch.

Some tradeoffs are more weight and less range due to more aerodynamic drag.

Some of the racing wheels are very light, but as Sasha points out, wider wheels and tires give back some of the advantage due to greater mass of being physically larger (wider). But the absolute grip of wider tires may be higher, particularly useful as higher corner and transition speeds on a race track.

The stock brakes are arguably slightly undersized for the street because in normal street driving, regen is used for most braking energy. They're definitely somewhat undersized for track use.

It feels like Tesla went slightly small on the front brake to reduce unsprung mass. This is a reasonable efficiency bias for street use, just like the relatively narrow tire width.

Most people are commuting most of the time, not racing.


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## JeffC

I guess I'm old school. Anything 50 profile and shorter is low profile to me , so 45 is not what I'd call particularly high profile. Compared to 30, I guess, yes. Going from a 4 inch to 3 inch sidewall is short to even shorter. 

I'm planning to get 18 inch racing wheels, for info, not 20s. Need to confirm again that Enkei PF01 or RF1 will clear the PUO brakes. Should be much easier to confirm now that cars are out on the road and Tire Rack should have PUO measured over time.

I wasn't arguing for lower profile tires. Mass, compound, tread pattern, etc., are probably more important. Racers tend to prefer 18s due to the lighter wheel. (Lighter is also better on the street, in general, due to lower unsprung mass giving a softer ride and more responsive suspension.)

Pilot Sport 4S on the Aeros should work well. Please let us know how they turn out! When I road trip down to L.A., maybe we can swap cars for a drive. I may be on the stock PUO 20s for a while though.


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## JeffC

Agree, but I'm getting racing 18 inch wheels if they'll fit over PUO brakes, can match tires in 265/40, etc.

The factory PUO 20s felt fine to me in terms of ride comfort. In some ways the energy tires on the Aeros ride harder. Lighter wheels will ride even better, in addition to performing better.

The factory big brakes also helped push me to PUO. It's a bit more engineering to do big brakes aftermarket. However a brake upgrade will be mostly noticeable only a race track.

Tires are far more important for (street) performance. (And they're a huge part of track performance.) People getting the Aeros on the Performance Model 3 either don't understand that or don't drive their cars to nearly their potential. They'll be shortchanging themselves from a major part of the performance envelope and purpose of the Performance version. Maybe for them, straight line acceleration is enough though. Reference showing how the Aeros perform at their limits: 




A large majority of BMW drivers probably have no clue how good their cars are at performance driving. (Some people actually get BMWs, etc., simply because they have a good reputation, as opposed to actually driving them hard. Obviously there's nothing wrong with that per se, but a Camry or Corolla would probably do the same job just as well.) Porsche drivers are probably only slightly less so. Given the demographic, I'd guess Tesla drivers may be even less.

I plan to take high performance driving school classes and do track days with Model 3. I plan to use more of the performance of the car and have some fun with it.


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## jlquinn

JeffC said:


> Agree, but I'm getting racing 18 inch wheels if they'll fit over PUO brakes, can match tires in 265/40, etc.
> 
> The factory PUO 20s felt fine to me in terms of ride comfort. In some ways the energy tires on the Aeros ride harder. Lighter wheels will ride even better, in addition to performing better.
> 
> The factory big brakes also helped push me to PUO. It's a bit more engineering to do big brakes aftermarket. However a brake upgrade will be mostly noticeable only a race track.
> 
> Tires are far more important for (street) performance. (And they're a huge part of track performance.) People getting the Aeros on the Performance Model 3 either don't understand that or don't drive their cars to nearly their potential. They'll be shortchanging themselves from a major part of the performance envelope and purpose of the Performance version. Maybe for them, straight line acceleration is enough though. Reference showing how the Aeros perform at their limits:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A large majority of BMW drivers probably have no clue how good their cars are at performance driving. (Some people actually get BMWs, etc., simply because they have a good reputation, as opposed to actually driving them hard. Obviously there's nothing wrong with that per se, but a Camry or Corolla would probably do the same job just as well.) Porsche drivers are probably only slightly less so. Given the demographic, I'd guess Tesla drivers may be even less.
> 
> I plan to take high performance driving school classes and do track days with Model 3. I plan to use more of the performance of the car and have some fun with it.


I opted to skip the PUO since I'm not planning to track the car. But I definitely plan to ditch the LRR tires and put on something more reasonable, likely the Michelin Sport A/S 3+. I've driven Super Sports on my 1 series and I love the handling. It's my hope that these all seasons will be similar, as well as let me skip separate winters. 
My biggest concern is that the car won't handle well without the PUO springs. 
We'll see...


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## JeffC

jlquinn said:


> I opted to skip the PUO since I'm not planning to track the car. But I definitely plan to ditch the LRR tires and put on something more reasonable, likely the Michelin Sport A/S 3+. I've driven Super Sports on my 1 series and I love the handling. It's my hope that these all seasons will be similar, as well as let me skip separate winters.
> My biggest concern is that the car won't handle well without the PUO springs.
> We'll see...


The PUO springs are only slightly lower. Tires in general will make much more of a difference, and the Pilot Sport A/S should get most of the advantage of the 4S while being better in rain, winter, etc., so it's probably a great choice. 

The main downside is that you'll lose a few percent of range compared to the energy efficient tires on the Aeros. See also: https://teslaownersonline.com/threads/wheel-and-tire-tech.5626

That said, I would never consider using the energy efficient tires in a performance setting. The results on the race track are somewhat representative. In a sense, the Performance Model 3 will be greatly hobbled by those tires. Sort of like making Usain Bolt wear clogs for a race. Reference: 





(Tires are the one and only interface with the road. It's hard to convey how important they are for how a car performs, behaves and feels. Getting excellent tires is the single best thing you can do for most performance-oriented cars that have good suspensions, etc. Telsas have top quality suspension designs.)


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## mastre

JeffC said:


> ... the Pilot Sport A/S should get most of the advantage of the 4S while being better in rain ...


This is a common misconception, but All Season Tires _*are not*_ better in the rain -- *summer tires are far superior in the rain*, as long as the minimal operating temperature is met (~45F).

Source: lived in South Florida for a decade, always summer and almost daily rain, night & day difference between summer tires and all seasons.

Easy rule of thumb: summer tires are always better in all cases on pavement when the temperature is >= 45F.


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## JeffC

mastre said:


> This is a common misconception, but All Season Tires _*are not*_ better in the rain -- *summer tires are far superior in the rain*, as long as the minimal operating temperature is met (~45F).
> 
> Source: lived in South Florida for a decade, always summer and almost daily rain, night & day difference between summer tires and all seasons.
> 
> Easy rule of thumb: summer tires are always better in all cases on pavement when the temperature is >= 45F.


That makes total sense, but I would also point out that Florida can be warmer when it rains than say Minnesota, Vermont, etc. Where it's colder, the all season tire compound could be happier than a summer compound. It could definitely be rainy and below 45F in some places.

Also the recommendation for all season vs summer tires where rain is a factor came from a Canadian, where until recently, the winter/rain temperatures may have been even lower than the U.S. I do give good credence to @Mad Hungarian since he's a key advisor in the wheel/tire industry.


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## JeffC

mastre said:


> To further drive home the point, I know that people are big fans of Michelin here, but an excellent tire that's pretty much on par (and usually somewhat cheaper) to top performing Michelins is the Continental ExtremeContact tire. A cool thing about it is its naming convention:
> 
> the _All Season_ version is called ExtremeContact *DWS*, which stands for *D*ry, *W*et, *S*now
> the _Summer_ version is called ExtremeContact *DW*, which stands for, you guessed it, *D*ry, *W*et
> The *W* is in there in the Summer version to clear up the common confusion about summer tires and rain. Summer tires are _*vastly superior*_ in the wet (again, when operated in their functional temp range of 45F+).


Both are good tires, but the Michelin 4S gets a better review and performance measurements than the Conti Extreme Contact Sport (summer tire only NOT THE DW model) at Tire Rack. https://www.tirerack.com/tires/tests/testDisplay.jsp?ttid=223

I have not driven the equivalent Conti, but was extremely impressed with the feel and controllability of the Michelin on the Performance Model 3 with Performance Upgrade option.


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## Feathermerchant

Soooo glad I found this. I'm to pick up my M3 9/28. Decided to go PUO and glad I did. I may switch to lighter wheels once the OEM tires wear out. I have a 2005 Magnum with 400RWHP and have installed 19X9" Forgestar wheels with Michelin MPSS and it handles great for being RWD. But the M3 will be totally different. Especially with track mode.


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## JeffC

Feathermerchant said:


> Soooo glad I found this. I'm to pick up my M3 9/28. Decided to go PUO and glad I did. I may switch to lighter wheels once the OEM tires wear out. I have a 2005 Magnum with 400RWHP and have installed 19X9" Forgestar wheels with Michelin MPSS and it handles great for being RWD. But the M3 will be totally different. Especially with track mode.


Congrats! Agree Performance Model 3 with PUO is an incredible car. Quick, agile, responsive, excellent driving/road/steering feel especially at high cornering loads, etc. Honestly it's such a good car that it sets the bar very high for competitors.

I like PM3 better than Model S Ludicrous because it's so much lighter that every move it makes feels easier and less forced. Model S is quicker, but feels heavier and seems to work significantly harder to accomplish a similar goal, particularly in hard cornering.

The better efficiency of Model 3 also means it's can run on a race track for a long time, albeit with slightly lower power after a couple laps due to thermal dissipation limits being reached. It's also much more efficient for normal street driving both due to being lighter and an having an inherently more efficient permanent magnet reluctance motor.

I'm probably sticking with the stock PUO wheels for now. There's some uncertainty about when wheels or hub adapter rings will fit the PUO "lip". Some folks are doing a group buy of forged wheels at: https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/group-buy-poll-for-mono-block-forged-alloy-wheels-by-titan-7.125962Definitely want to go with lighter wheels for the street, and lighter and wider wheels for the track. See for example: https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/thr...h-wheels-same-tire-model.129156/#post-3048212 and also threads here: https://teslaownersonline.com/threads/wheel-and-tire-tech.5626/page-8#post-150913

Anyway superb car. Enjoy! Definitely take it on a track to see what it can really do and how truly excellent it feels doing it.


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## Kbecks

@JeffC did you ever decide on wheels/tires for the Performance Upgrade? I seem to be on a similar path as you, wanting to find a set of wheels for the track.

Seems the 18x9.5" doesn't have too many tires available for it, so i would either go 18x10" if Sasha's testing tomorrow works out (believe thats when hes trying a square set-up with 18x10 on 275s) or perhaps 19x9.5" to get better tire choice.


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## JeffC

Kbecks said:


> @JeffC did you ever decide on wheels/tires for the Performance Upgrade? I seem to be on a similar path as you, wanting to find a set of wheels for the track.
> 
> Seems the 18x9.5" doesn't have too many tires available for it, so i would either go 18x10" if Sasha's testing tomorrow works out (believe thats when hes trying a square set-up with 18x10 on 275s) or perhaps 19x9.5" to get better tire choice.


Thanks @Kbecks , I ended up getting the Performance Upgrade option wheels and tires for now since I wanted the factory brake upgrade.

The main issue with aftermarket wheels at this point is the 3mm lip due to the upgraded brake rotor hat being thinner than non-upgrade. Tesla solved this by having the wheel manufacturer mill a recess in the PUO 20 inch wheels to clear the lip. Eventually aftermarket wheel makers will address this either by machining the lip recess or using special hub adapter rings that clear the lip. Reference:






Folks on the Tesla Motors Club forum are arranging a group buy of fully forged wheels with the lip recess to fit both PUO and non-PUO Model 3s:

https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/thr...-block-forged-alloy-wheels-by-titan-7.125962/
http://www.evasivemotorsports.com/m...TGY&Store_Code=EM&Category_Code=TITAN7-MODEL3

I will probably get 19x9.5 or 19x10 for track use. 19x9.5 may be best with 265 tires, and soft compound 265 seem much more common than 275. (275 would fit better with 10 inch wide wheels.) Sacha indicated 10 inch wheels gave some more performance, but the 9.5 / 265 combination seems better supported in terms of tire availability, so I'm leaning towards the latter.

Definitely going square, either 9.5 or 10 for all 4 wheels. The dual motor Model 3s have 50/50 weight distribution and wider front tires probably have better understeer/oversteer balance.

18s would be nice but the rear brake caliper clearance is not universal, and the tire choices are fewer than 19s. That said, I'd still like to get a set of Enkei RPF1 or PF01s in 18 if the barrel clears the calipers and we can make/get hub adapter rings that fit.

For information Tire Rack has measured a Performance Model 3 with and without PUO and now has both available as vehicles on their configurator system. There are PUO compatible 18, 19 and 20 inch wheels on their site now, though the selection is relatively limited. Given the popularity of Model 3, there will surely be many more wheels added eventually.


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## Kbecks

JeffC said:


> Definitely going square, either 9.5 or 10 for all 4 wheels. The dual motor Model 3s have 50/50 weight distribution and wider front tires probably have better understeer/oversteer balance.


FWIW, i am very close to pulling the trigger on a set of 19x9.5 wheels with +33 offset to run with some 265/35/R19 RE-71Rs. I think it's going to be a bit too tight with the 10" wide wheels plus i want to maybe leave them on for a tiny bit of street driving occasionally. I'm getting them from VMR wheels who can machine the necessary counterbore into the wheels for PUO package.


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## JeffC

Kbecks said:


> FWIW, i am very close to pulling the trigger on a set of 19x9.5 wheels with +33 offset to run with some 265/35/R19 RE-71Rs. I think it's going to be a bit too tight with the 10" wide wheels plus i want to maybe leave them on for a tiny bit of street driving occasionally. I'm getting them from VMR wheels who can machine the necessary counterbore into the wheels for PUO package.


Sounds good! Please let us know how it turns out.


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