# Solar ROI



## RiggerJon (Sep 8, 2017)

ng0 said:


> tier 1 is 22 cents, tier 2 is a whopping 40 cents!!


Dang!!! (with full Texan twang)

Seems like the ROI on solar could be pretty fast with those rates.


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## ahagge (May 6, 2017)

RiggerJon said:


> Dang!!! (with full Texan twang)
> 
> Seems like the ROI on solar could be pretty fast with those rates.


It is - my 2010 system is basically paid off. But of course now the utilities are lobbying like mad trying to get rid of the feed-in tariff.


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## Derik (Jul 26, 2017)

I've had my solar system for 2.5 years. For the first year or so my electric bill was $2 a month, and at the end of the year I got a $75 check from SCE from the extra power I produced. Now they raised the min monthly bill to $10 a month.

I've heard that SDGE is actually starting to limit the number of solar systems they approve mainly because lots of people are going solar. 

The 20 cents a KWh is pretty inline with the average in CA it seems. Wish it was more in line with what the nighttime rates were of 14 cents. At least the system is there if you need it and a full charge is still going to be less than a tank of gas since gas prices are on the rise again. Expectantly with the new tax that got added this month. Just filled up this morning for $3.199 a gallon. Same station last week was $3.079. But still a lot better than it was a few years ago when I was paying nearly $5 a gallon.

I still can't wait to never step foot in another gas station again.


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## SSonnentag (Mar 30, 2017)

Our minimum monthly bill here in Arizona (APS) is around $10-$11 per month as well. We always over-produce, but that's as low as the bill can go. Still, it's not bad for the use of power at night when our solar panels become dead weights.


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## RiggerJon (Sep 8, 2017)

ahagge said:


> It is - my 2010 system is basically paid off. But of course now the utilities are lobbying like mad trying to get rid of the feed-in tariff.


Wow, that's fast - and the latter almost sounds like theft.

Solar in TX is tough to justify economically, although it is still the right decision.


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## LUXMAN (Apr 4, 2016)

Derik said:


> I've heard that SDGE is actually starting to limit the number of solar systems they approve mainly because lots of people are going solar.


So @Derik can you explain how a Utility can stop a private citizen from putting Solar on their house?


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## garsh (Apr 4, 2016)

LUXMAN said:


> So @Derik can you explain how a Utility can stop a private citizen from putting Solar on their house?


By not allowing you to connect that solar system to the utility's grid. You would have to take your house completely off-grid if they don't allow you to tie it in.


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## MelindaV (Apr 2, 2016)

garsh said:


> By not allowing you to connect that solar system to the utility's grid. You would have to take your house completely off-grid if they don't allow you to tie it in.


And to go a step further, if you are inside city limited, many cities have municipal code requiring homes to be connected to the grid to be considered habitable. Without being on the electrical grid, the city could condem a home, even if it had the ability to be 100% electric independent.


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## Derik (Jul 26, 2017)

garsh said:


> By not allowing you to connect that solar system to the utility's grid. You would have to take your house completely off-grid if they don't allow you to tie it in.


You beat me to the answer. That was my understanding as well


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## RandyS (Apr 6, 2016)

Derik said:


> I've heard that SDGE is actually starting to limit the number of solar systems they approve mainly because lots of people are going solar.


Derek, I work for SDG&E and that is not true. Well over 1,000 systems are approved and installed each month. Here is the link to the NEM page that explains all about what it takes to connect.

https://www.sdge.com/clean-energy/overview/overview


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## Derik (Jul 26, 2017)

RandyS said:


> Derek, I work for SDG&E and that is not true. Well over 1,000 systems are approved and installed each month. Here is the link to the NEM page that explains all about what it takes to connect.
> 
> https://www.sdge.com/clean-energy/overview/overview


I'm glad that what I heard is not true. I don't live within SDG&E bounds, so I was going off by what my father in law told me about a year ago when he was looking into getting a solar system. Maybe he was talking about the net metering cap that there was some news articles a year. I guess now you have to go to a TOU plan vs staying on a standard rate plan.


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## ahagge (May 6, 2017)

RiggerJon said:


> Wow, that's fast - and the latter almost sounds like theft.
> 
> Solar in TX is tough to justify economically, although it is still the right decision.


I'm basing it on the fact that I got a LEAF in mid-2011 and have put 100,000+ solar-powered miles on it, saving me about $2,500 a year in gas. That plus the $1,000 or so per year for home electrical about equals my $15,000 cost for the 5.1kW system (after all rebates). And after 7+ years, I'm _still_ slightly energy-negative (I've sold more to the utility than I've consumed from them).

And yes, if they succeed in removing the feed-in tariff, I equate the result to electricity theft as well. But of course, the utility doesn't see it that way.


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## tfederov (Jul 30, 2017)

RiggerJon said:


> Wow, that's fast - and the latter almost sounds like theft.
> 
> Solar in TX is tough to justify economically, although it is still the right decision.


I'm paying $.059/kWh right now. As much as I want to go solar I can't justify it as it will always cost me more, even if this rate doubles. This is in the DFW area.


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## RiggerJon (Sep 8, 2017)

tfederov said:


> I'm paying $.059/kWh right now. As much as I want to go solar I can't justify it as it will always cost me more, even if this rate doubles. This is in the DFW area.


Wow - that's a great rate. The economics didn't really make sense for me either, but oh well. Solar prices are coming down, so hopefully economics alone will make sense soon.


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## tfederov (Jul 30, 2017)

RiggerJon said:


> Wow - that's a great rate. The economics didn't really make sense for me either, but oh well. Solar prices are coming down, so hopefully economics alone will make sense soon.


Yep. The brown outs I'm getting here are killing me and could use some Powerwalls.


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## Derik (Jul 26, 2017)

tfederov said:


> Yep. The brown outs I'm getting here are killing me and could use some Powerwalls.


Perfect use for a powerwall. Most people don't understand that if the grid goes down with a standard solar system you'll still be out of power. I've been reading that there is actually a company that is making micro-inverters that can actually supply power to the house with the grid down. But I still think a battery system is a great addition to a solar system.


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## 1932highboy (Apr 9, 2016)

My 7KW solar array has totally eliminated my electric bill. I own both a Leaf and a model S P85 that run on sunshine. My electrical provider pays me $0.116 per kWh on every one I supply to the grid. My balance with them is over negative $300.00. The provider is Green Mountain.


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## Topher (May 11, 2016)

Derik said:


> I've been reading that there is actually a company that is making micro-inverters that can actually supply power to the house with the grid down.


Pika Energy had an inverter that did that, but they have since discontinued it as it wasn't reliable (the concept, not the electronics). At some level you are always going to need at least some batteries.

Thank you kindly.


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## Mark C (Aug 26, 2016)

garsh said:


> By not allowing you to connect that solar system to the utility's grid. You would have to *take your house completely off-grid* if they don't allow you to tie it in.


 I made the print bold to show where I disagree.

While it does seem that way, I believe there's a option that avoids the issue and is exactly what I plan to do in a couple of years. I plan is to install a generator transfer switch, put a Powerwall on the generator side of the transfer switch and add 5 more kW of solar to charge the Powerwall. When the weather is agreeable and I'm making enough to cover the usage, I will have the transfer switch on the generator side and when the solar production is not sufficient, put it on the grid side. I will put more effort into the design when the time comes, because the limiting factor will be the output of the Powerwall's built in inverter. It may not cover every load.


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## Topher (May 11, 2016)

Mark C said:


> I believe there's a option that avoids the issue


While this seems like it meets the spirit of the law, be sure to check (preferably with a lawyer) that it meets the letter of the law.

Thank You kindly.


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## Mark C (Aug 26, 2016)

Topher said:


> While this seems like it meets the spirit of the law, be sure to check (preferably with a lawyer) that it meets the letter of the law.
> 
> Thank You kindly.


A fair disclaimer, to be sure. I would say that as long as I use a legally installed, code compliant transfer switch, it is no different than allowing me to use a Generac / Honda, etc generator while the power is down, *except* for utility revenue. That can be a huge EXCEPT.


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## Wynstonn (Nov 23, 2018)

Derik said:


> Perfect use for a powerwall. Most people don't understand that if the grid goes down with a standard solar system you'll still be out of power. I've been reading that there is actually a company that is making micro-inverters that can actually supply power to the house with the grid down. But I still think a battery system is a great addition to a solar system.


I have solar on the house but no powerwall backup. Does anyone know if I can use the Tesla as my powerwall to feed the house during power outages?


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## Fishn4life (Jul 5, 2018)

Yes it’s possible but several powerwalls may be needed (depending on demand, size of loads, and time frame). Most people are using the Powerwall (and other battery options like LG Chem & Sonnen) to offset the expensive time of use rates designated by the various utility companies. You can also set up a generator with an automatic OR manual transfer switch to energize the circuits to the inverters. This will allow you to at least use what you’re producing while the sun is out.


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## LUXMAN (Apr 4, 2016)

Wynstonn said:


> I have solar on the house but no powerwall backup. Does anyone know if I can use the Tesla as my powerwall to feed the house during power outages?


At this time TESLA does NOT support the use of the car battery for a house back up. It has been mentioned as something they may offer in the future but as of now, no. 
Nissan has this available in Japan for a select group of testers but it requires the use of special equipment installed at the home and a CHADEMO port that is Bi Directional. 
So there probably would need to be changes to the vehicles architecture as well as additions to the home to feed the mains.
I think a stand alone system is the best you can get at this time. Whether it is a Powerwall or Sonnan to add to your system. If you add a battery to the Solar before the end of 2019, you will qualify for a 30% tax credit (like the car) that can be extended into further years if needed (unlike the car tax credit). After 2019, the tax credit starts to taper off


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## garsh (Apr 4, 2016)

Wynstonn said:


> I have solar on the house but no powerwall backup. Does anyone know if I can use the Tesla as my powerwall to feed the house during power outages?


From the Model 3 Owner's Manual:


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## mswlogo (Oct 8, 2018)

My purchased (not lease) solar is on track to pay for itself in about 6 years. I'm 2.5 years in. My system is 8kw. I have some excess capacity that will cover some of the Model 3 charging.
My bill has been $0 since it was installed. And I get a check from the state for producing my own electricity once a quarter (for 10 years). Checks vary wildly. My Electricity rate is $0.23 kwh with no off peak rates.

BTW I saved a ton of by methodically going through everything in the house that was wasting energy. You'd be surprised how much electronics on "standby" use up.
It might only be 10-20 watts, but when it's 24/7/365 it starts to add up. My modern home entertainment system was using 50 watts on standby.
I added relays and control them via a programable remote. I'll probably never get my ROI on the relays though ;( but it sure feels good.

My entire home now is around 300-400 watts on "standby" (If we are not home). I should replace my 2002 Fridge but that will take like 20 years for ROI. Not to mention the waste of a perfectly good fridge.

My Model 3 charging is gonna put me over on the capacity of the system. I have some excess capacity, but not enough.


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## LUXMAN (Apr 4, 2016)

Well, my payback time is a bit more being that electricity is cheap in Texas (for now). Doing a 14.945 kw system with 49 panels , I am looking at a payback time of 18.5 years at current rates and adding the additional $10 monthly distributed generation (DG) fee to be an ENERGY PRODUCER! Of course it will be less time if the rates climb here but I am in a Coop  and they have been low for 10 years. Like flat and low. That is a good thing but the bad is the Monthly Net Meter policy with no payback for overproduction. But bad as they are making carbon emissions (trying to find out what they use to make their electricity). but they do have a solar farm and working on another, so that is good but will not be enough. So that is a long time, but the home is <2 years old and the plan is to stay put (until they wheel me out, hence the one story ). 
Now the Powerwalls are a different issue and an indulgence. But at least I can stay up and running in a blackout and give ELON more money.

My system is supposed to go up next week, 19/20 December. I will post pics and info here as it progresses.


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## ironinside (Jan 27, 2019)

tfederov said:


> I'm paying $.059/kWh right now. As much as I want to go solar I can't justify it as it will always cost me more, even if this rate doubles. This is in the DFW area.


wow... 17.5 cents in new york.


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## NJturtlePower (Dec 19, 2017)

ironinside said:


> wow... 17.5 cents in new york.


Not far behind here in NJ with JCP&L at 15.0 cents/kWh on my latest bill.

12.35 kW solar system pending install (non Tesla) in next few weeks with an estimated ROI of about 5 1/5 years with NJ's killer SREC program.


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## ajdelange (Jun 26, 2019)

Derik said:


> I've been reading that there is actually a company that is making micro-inverters that can actually supply power to the house with the grid down.


Yes, the Enphase IQ 8 will evidently do that and there may be others. I wonder how they handle islanding.



Derik said:


> But I still think a battery system is a great addition to a solar system.


 If the grid goes down after the sun goes down then you need some backup for sure. But a Tesla Powerwall, for example, is only good for, I believe, 13 kWh and as my average draw is 4.5 kW in the winter and 3 in the summer it's clear that a single power wall won't take me very far (and there is a limitation on the maximum poweer they can deliver too). OTOH most outages are a few minutes to a couple of hours (the one here this morning was 37 minutes). It's when the hurricanes roll in and power is out for days that you need a generator.


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## michigantesla (Mar 9, 2019)

If you can DYI the system you can do solar pretty cheap. I just installed a 4kw (going to add soon) system on my roof for ~$1 Watt installed and grid tied. Will be cheaper once the tax incentive is taken. There is a surprising amount of work involved so this is not for many people. Buying the panels is EZ part. Spent quite a few hours figuring best way to mount and doing wiring. Spent a lot of time filling out paperwork for permits and grid tie application. Had to hire a friend to help mount the panels but kept that cost to minimum by doing all 1 person prep I could beforehand. My rate is ~12 cents per kw so should be well worth it. I am still going to be using more power than my system will produce as I drive and thus charge my Model 3 a lot.


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## mugurpe (Nov 3, 2018)

I've got a 17.1Kwh system on our warehouse here in Massachusetts. ROI is looking like it'll hit on the 5-6 year mark. But it depends on how you measure it. I go from when I fork over $$ not from the interconnect date. We're set up on 3 phase on a flat EPDM roof with no obstructions, pretty much ideal.


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## ChristianZ (Nov 10, 2018)

NJturtlePower said:


> Not far behind here in NJ with JCP&L at 15.0 cents/kWh on my latest bill.
> 
> 12.35 kW solar system pending install (non Tesla) in next few weeks with an estimated ROI of about 5 1/5 years with NJ's killer SREC program.


I've got Tesla coming this Thursday to put in my 17.01 kW system. Hello SREC credits and 30% federal tax rebate! I've got JCP&L too.


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## NJturtlePower (Dec 19, 2017)

ChristianZ said:


> I've got Tesla coming this Thursday to put in my 17.01 kW system. Hello SREC credits and 30% federal tax rebate! I've got JCP&L too.


Sweet...JUST under the 2019 wire!

My system went live the first week of Sept. so I caught just the tail end of the better solar months and just cashed in my first 3 SRECS for $216 each ($648 total). As designed, my system should make about 14 per year.

Good luck with the install and hopefully JCP&L will get your meter swapped soon after approvals.... you're not missing much this month...terrible solar weather. If you haven't yet, look into PVOutput, fun site to share and collect data for your system and others near you for comparison. Here's my system link and details: https://pvoutput.org/list.jsp?sid=67749


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## Derik (Jul 26, 2017)

NJturtlePower said:


> look into PVOutput, fun site to share and collect data for your system and others near you for comparison


I love PVOutput. I've been using it pretty much since day 1 of my system. I also have an rainforest eagle that connects to my meter via Zigbee so I can show both my generation and usage on PVoutput. Great for tacking how your system is doing as well as how much everything is using during the day etc.


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## ChristianZ (Nov 10, 2018)

NJturtlePower said:


> Sweet...JUST under the 2019 wire!
> 
> My system went live the first week of Sept. so I caught just the tail end of the better solar months and just cashed in my first 3 SRECS for $216 each ($648 total). As designed, my system should make about 14 per year.
> 
> ...


I'll definitely check out PVOutput. Looks good!
Question: After you got your town inspection certificate, how long did JCP&L take to come and switch out the meter to go live? 
I can't believe how bad December looks... I hope it's not like that all winter.


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## NJturtlePower (Dec 19, 2017)

ChristianZ said:


> I'll definitely check out PVOutput. Looks good!
> Question: After you got your town inspection certificate, how long did JCP&L take to come and switch out the meter to go live?
> I can't believe how bad December looks... I hope it's not like that all winter.


That was probably the shortest of my solar process waits at about 3 1/2 weeks.... My contractor actually switched my system on remotely after approval a day and a half BEFORE the meter swap... technically lost that generation to utility but was still counting on the SREC meter.

I had actually put together a full timeline for a solar forum likely helpful reference for others as well - See Below*









https://greenpowerenergy.com/

Another great site used by most solar sales teams to estimate solar generation by address is PVWatts - https://pvwatts.nrel.gov/
December is our (NJ's) lowest production month, and for my site/system specifically is estimated at 805 kWh


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## ChristianZ (Nov 10, 2018)

I'm curious why you picked GPE over Tesla. Was it a better price? 
Thanks for the chart. Tesla starts install tomorrow and arranged a township inspection for Dec 27. As I understand it, we mail/send a certificate to JCP&L to get them to Meter Swap. I think I did the two Interconnect agreements online with Tesla. I guess I can ask them tomorrow.


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## NJturtlePower (Dec 19, 2017)

ChristianZ said:


> I'm curious why you picked GPE over Tesla. Was it a better price?
> Thanks for the chart. Tesla starts install tomorrow and arranged a township inspection for Dec 27. As I understand it, we mail/send a certificate to JCP&L to get them to Meter Swap. I think I did the two Interconnect agreements online with Tesla. I guess I can ask them tomorrow.


Why GPE over Tesla Solar?

1) Could not stand Tesla's sluggish and disorganized sales team, often DAYS to respond vs. literally minutes with Tim at GPE from Day-1 to 5-Months later post-install.
2) Tesla pricing of their own Panasonic panels was higher than local vendors including GPE.
3) The Tesla spec Panasonic panels actually have a lesser warranty and output guarantee than the Panasonic direct branded ones.
4) Preferred to deal with a local reputable outfit who would tailor the system to my needs, wide selection of equipment, options and add-ons and be able to respond quickly for service if needed.
5) GPE was honest and up front about ROI and SRECS unlike Tesla who tried to buy out my SREC rights in their very first quote and listed it as a "discount".
6) Financing options/rates were better through GPE/Sungage.
7) GPE has an existing relationship with a quality roofer and had our re-roof rolled into "site prep" and monthly financing payments.

I never had to deal with JCP&L, the state or local municipalities directly at any time... all our agreements, docs, permits were e-signed and handled by GPE.

Anyways, guessing none of that maters much anymore in your case.....

Where you at in the process now? Any pics of the install? Initial review of your experience?


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## ChristianZ (Nov 10, 2018)

I've been happy with Tesla so far. Panels installed prior to December 31st. Waiting for the certification from home inspection to be sent to JCP&L to get the net meter put in.


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## FF35 (Jul 13, 2018)

I had a 12kW system installed in February (NJ). My SREC’s for the year were about $1700. The electricity produced was about 8700 kW, which is about $1100. If the SREC’s continue, my solar panels should generate about $3000/yr.

After the tax credit, my system was $21,000 so it should pay for itself in just under 7 years.


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## NJturtlePower (Dec 19, 2017)

FF35 said:


> I had a 12kW system installed in February (NJ). My SREC's for the year were about $1700. The electricity produced was about 8700 kW, which is about $1100. If the SREC's continue, my solar panels should generate about $3000/yr.
> 
> After the tax credit, my system was $21,000 so it should pay for itself in just under 7 years.


Are you still running off your banked kWh's now in Jan? Assuming this is built to be a 100% offset?

My install was Sept. so haven't been able to bank anything yet but our 12.35 kW system SHOULD be 100% offset....too soon to tell since I was estimating charging usage.


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## FF35 (Jul 13, 2018)

NJturtlePower said:


> Are you still running off your banked kWh's now in Jan? Assuming this is built to be a 100% offset?
> 
> My install was Sept. so haven't been able to bank anything yet but our 12.35 kW system SHOULD be 100% offset....too soon to tell since I was estimating charging usage.


It wasn't designed to be a 100% offset. I use about 20,000 kW a year (my car uses about 1/2 of the total usage). Didn't have the money for the full system I really wanted. There's 41 300w panels but will move some and get better panels in the future.

I ran out of banked kW's in October.


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## NJturtlePower (Dec 19, 2017)

FF35 said:


> It wasn't designed to be a 100% offset. I use about 20,000 kW a year (my car uses about 1/2 of the total usage). Didn't have the money for the full system I really wanted. There's 41 300w panels but will move some and get better panels in the future.
> 
> I ran out of banked kW's in October.


Wow 20,000 kWh and HALF on the car... You must drive a TON!

Pre-Tesla our annual usage was just under 10,000 kWh, mostly gas utilities (furnace/dryer/stove), 2500 sq ft home, and now with the Model 3 probably around 13,500 kWh annually since I only drive maybe 10 to 12k miles per year.

Our first year solar production estimate is 14,350 kWh but we'll see how that plays out in 2020, our first full solar production year.


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## ChristianZ (Nov 10, 2018)

I have a couple of questions since my system is up and running.
1. Do you sell your SREC credits yourself or use a broker? If yourself, where do you register?
2. I set up my PVOutput account, entered system data and my daily info (which I'm not sure is correct..Tesla app says 16.2 Kw for today with a 17.1 KW system/54 panels). How do I get it to autoupdate?

Thanks!


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