# Tesla Battery Technology



## TrevP (Oct 20, 2015)

In case you missed a point in my Tesla battery video on Youtube, here's an article about wire bonding which is the technique employed by them to connect the cells together. A thin wire acts as a fusible link for each cell and doesn't require high temps to bond and thus doesn't damage the cell.

https://chargedevs.com/features/a-closer-look-at-wire-bonding/


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## Gary Moore (Apr 10, 2016)

I loved seeing the wonderful words in the article about a Tesla's "US patent application." For the potentially uninitiated, these words mean "We have figured out a novel and non-obvious application for actually properly doing this kind of stuff, and now it's hopefully legally going to become ours for a while, so dear competitors, please just try copying our patented processes and our lawyers will simply eat you for lunch. Have a nice day. No wonder your battery packs cost so much."


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## TrevP (Oct 20, 2015)

Funny thing is, Tesla released all of their patents so anyone is free to use them "in good faith". So far we haven't seen any results from their noble efforts. They're still ahead of everyone else.


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## Gary Moore (Apr 10, 2016)

Yes, no good deed goes unpunished. I'm just bemused by all the press trying to pretend that Tesla is not real. "Pay no attention to that Model 3 behind the curtain! We could build one in 12 months, if only we wanted to do so! It must be a horribly non-profitable endeavor!" 

Yeah, that explains a lot.... Vision is a cheap trick. See you at the movies.


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## Gary Moore (Apr 10, 2016)

The auto industry is a very long story, but tomorrow will not be cancelled because some don't catch on to a new paradigm.

I'll quit my ranting and do something rational, like posting a link:

http://cleantechnica.com/2016/04/27/tesla-model-3-pricing-battery-pricing-unveiled/


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## AEDennis (Apr 10, 2016)

Since we're talking Tesla's battery technology, I figured to share the following posts that I just wrote a blogpost (and an article on Teslarati) on Plug in America's battery survey, which focused on the Model 3's predecessing vehicles, the Roadster and Model S.

Just another way to demonstrate to current Model 3 reservation holders, who are not currenty Tesla owners, that they've "picked a good horse in the EV race."


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## Dan Detweiler (Apr 8, 2016)

AEDennis said:


> Since we're talking Tesla's battery technology, I figured to share the following posts that I just wrote a blogpost (and an article on Teslarati) on Plug in America's battery survey, which focused on the Model 3's predecessing vehicles, the Roadster and Model S.
> 
> Just another way to demonstrate to current Model 3 reservation holders, who are not currenty Tesla owners, that they've "picked a good horse in the EV race."


Thank you so much for this. It's only been a couple of weeks and I was already getting a little tired of the nay sayers, especially over on the TMC site. I mean, I think we all understood what we were getting into when we put down our reservations. We don't need somebody coming along three or four times a day telling us that we wasted our money and time...GET OVER YOURSELF ALREADY!

Thanks Again,

Dan


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## MelindaV (Apr 2, 2016)

I also don't understand the thought process that says you need a 500+ mile range. If the upgraded battery cost was not outrageous to go to 300-sh miles, I would be happy with that. If it is a huge cost, 215 will be fine with me. Maybe the cars I've driven are gas hogs with small tanks, but if I get 250-300 miles per fill-up things are good. (since my typical city driving/idling gets me right at 200)
Yesterday I had to be just outside of Seattle for work (about 140 miles ea way) and filled up when I left and got home with just over a ¼ tank left. With the standard Model 3 range listed, I would stop at the SC that's about the half way point, but it's the exit I generally stop at anyway for coffee, when gas is needed, restrooms, etc.


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## xxZULAxx (Apr 5, 2016)

The way I look at it, it is a chance to see places that are in-between otherwise I would drive by and never notice.


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## TrevP (Oct 20, 2015)

The laws of diminishing returns comes into play with range. Tesla has said many times they can make bigger battery packs to enable longer range however the weight, cost and charge time make them impractical. They chose the sizes they did based on many factors.

Everyone wants more range but the realities of common daily usage dictate otherwise. People who have not owned a Tesla have a constant fear of the "range anxiety" boogeyman living under their bed. It's not an issue of range, it's an issue of education.


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## Dan Detweiler (Apr 8, 2016)

TrevP said:


> The laws of diminishing returns comes into play with range. Tesla has said many times they can make bigger battery packs to enable longer range however the weight, cost and charge time make them impractical. They chose the sizes they did based on many factors.
> 
> Everyone wants more range but the realities of common daily usage dictate otherwise. People who have not owned a Tesla have a constant fear of the "range anxiety" boogeyman living under their bed. It's not an issue of range, it's an issue of education.


For the most part, I agree with you. I have been driving a Volt for the last 4 years and even with just a 30-40 mile range on a charge I have still managed to drive 80% on electric only (daily commute is 14 miles round trip). However, this will have to be a family vehicle and we do take several trips out of state each year. The superchargers should make this a breeze. I view the bigger battery as insurance against my own stupidity!

Dan


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## garsh (Apr 4, 2016)

MelindaV said:


> I also don't understand the thought process that says you need a 500+ mile range.



Cold weather
Battery degradation over time
Higher speeds
Snow/rain on the ground
Long trips
Lack of supercharging on many routes
Just because a car is rated at 215 miles range, doesn't mean it's actually going to get that range in the real world all of the time. I was quite happy when I first got my Leaf. I could go 90-100 miles in it! I have a 30-mile commute, so I could make it to work, back home, and back to work again on one charge! Here I am, four years later. I have to charge at both ends of my commute in the winter, due to battery degradation and the range-zapping effect of the cold. Yep, can't even make it 60 miles on one charge any more.


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## TrevP (Oct 20, 2015)

I will be getting the larger battery pack for 2 reasons:


To reduce the impact of cold weather affecting the range. 
Enables fast charging at Superchargers for longer road trips. 
Notice I didn't mention "longer range". To me range is more of a factor of how hard you drive. It's more important for me to charge faster and thus less time at a Supercharger to get those Kms without trying to eek out a bit more range and spend more time with a smaller pack.


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## AEDennis (Apr 10, 2016)

garsh said:


> ...
> Lack of supercharging on many routes
> Just because a car is rated at 215 miles range, doesn't mean it's actually going to get that range in the real world all of the time. I was quite happy when I first got my Leaf. I could go 90-100 miles in it! I have a 30-mile commute, so I could make it to work, back home, and back to work again on one charge! Here I am, four years later. I have to charge at both ends of my commute in the winter, due to battery degradation and the range-zapping effect of the cold. Yep, can't even make it 60 miles on one charge any more.


Especially that I-80 direct route (right now)... That's been planned forever, we had to go from Ohio down to Maryland and back up to go to New Jersey last year... It was...

...great, got us to be in the car longer!

Honestly, enough range to make the drive from charger to charger with a good 40 miles above for "just in case" is pretty good sweet spot.

That being said, I find that my (driver needs) are shorter than my Model S range... So, if I get a consistent 255 miles, I'm good.


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## MpowerSkills (May 1, 2016)

MelindaV said:


> I also don't understand the thought process that says you need a 500+ mile range.


I feel like I need 500+ range because I can from time to time end up driving 200 miles in a day, zig zagging around northeastern Ohio without a supercharger anywhere close enough to save me. Also this happens in the heat of summer and in freezing cold winters. If I'm only supposed to charge to 80% on a 300 mile batteries that only leaves me with 240. And some of that 240 will get used up by heating the car or by inefficient driving because I won't be able to warm the car up while plugged in during meetings. This could make for a very stress full and distracting day, as compared to how it is now with my gas car, I don't even think about any of this stuff.


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## MpowerSkills (May 1, 2016)

TrevP said:


> I will be getting the larger battery pack for 2 reasons:
> 
> 
> To reduce the impact of cold weather affecting the range.
> Enables fast charging at Superchargers for longer road trips.




I'm really concerned about the cold weather affecting the range. How does a bigger battery help? Doesn't a cold battery loose its charge when cold no matter the size? Are you only referring to the need to heat the car using up energy? How do the batteries behave when they're cold and you have to drive without warming them up via plugging in?


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## garsh (Apr 4, 2016)

MpowerSkills said:


> I'm really concerned about the cold weather affecting the range. How does a bigger battery help? Doesn't a cold battery loose its charge when cold no matter the size?


Yes. But since a larger capacity battery has more capacity to begin with, it'll also have more capacity than a smaller battery when the weather gets cold.

But also, it doesn't "lose charge". The battery is simply not able to deliver as much electricity when it's cold. If you take that cold battery and manage to warm it back up, you'll find that it's back to "full charge". This article has a more detailed explanation of the processes involved.


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## MpowerSkills (May 1, 2016)

garsh said:


> Yes. But since a larger capacity battery has more capacity to begin with, it'll also have more capacity than a smaller battery when the weather gets cold.
> 
> But also, it doesn't "lose charge". The battery is simply not able to deliver as much electricity when it's cold. If you take that cold battery and manage to warm it back up, you'll find that it's back to "full charge". This article has a more detailed explanation of the processes involved.


Ok, thanks for the link! Good article. But it doesn't say that I'll be ok, it basically says I should plug in over night when at home, that's no problem. My problem is during the day when working. Do you think I'll be able to drive 170 miles on an average winter day if I bought a Model 3 with a 250 max range and had no ability to plug in anywhere but at home?


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## xxZULAxx (Apr 5, 2016)

MpowerSkills said:


> Ok, thanks for the link! Good article. But it doesn't say that I'll be ok, it basically says I should plug in over night when at home, that's no problem. My problem is during the day when working. Do you think I'll be able to drive 170 miles on an average winter day if I bought a Model 3 with a 250 max range and had no ability to plug in anywhere but at home?


If you assume 10 miles extra just in case 180/250 = 72% or 28% battery degradation. To me 30% sounds a lot and i hope it is much less.


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## Dan Detweiler (Apr 8, 2016)

Batteries hate cold. I have stated in other threads that in the winter I often see 40-45% less range with my Volt. It's something you learn to expect and plan for. This is why I will be purchasing the largest battery they offer when the time comes.

Dan


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## MpowerSkills (May 1, 2016)

xxZULAxx said:


> If you assume 10 miles extra just in case 180/250 = 72% or 28% battery degradation. To me 30% sounds a lot and i hope it is much less.


You're assuming a max range charge, which we know is bad. So I'd be charging to 80% which would mean 200 is my best range for daily use, degradation would bring it down from that point.

You know what would be awesome!!? A chart that shows the percentage of energy loss per degree below 15 Celsius per 15 minute intervals of parking unplugged time!

I just need some way to figure out it I can make this work before writing a $50k check. 
(Please believe me, I'm not trying to be annoying, these are my real concerns, lol)


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## Dan Detweiler (Apr 8, 2016)

Don't know if you can really "chart" this stuff. So much of it relies on your driving style, temperature, winds, road conditions, etc. Are there any public level two chargers on your way home?

Dan


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## xxZULAxx (Apr 5, 2016)

MpowerSkills said:


> You're assuming a max range charge, which we know is bad. So I'd be charging to 80% which would mean 200 is my best range for daily use, degradation would bring it down from that point.
> 
> You know what would be awesome!!? A chart that shows the percentage of energy loss per degree below 15 Celsius per 15 minute intervals of parking unplugged time!
> 
> ...


I understand that it is not recommend to do full charge, but if you start coming closer to 200 miles between charges then what other option would you have. All we know is that full charge will do 215 miles. Past this is anyone's guess until they give us next update on the car.


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## Badback (Apr 7, 2016)

OK, a lot of these discussions seem to center around what a Tesla won't do and how it won't work for ME.

So, no one is forcing you to buy one. Just don't complain when you are the last person on the planet that wants to buy gasoline.

Maybe you should be asking yourself why you have to drive so much and so far. Most all business discussions and deals can be made via phone of computer. The era when a salesman must visit a customer is closing fast. And good riddance to that old idea. What a waste of time and money, for both parties.


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## garsh (Apr 4, 2016)

I think it's a great question to be asking. Even if you don't regularly travel such long distances, it's great to understand all of the factors that affect range so you don't get stuck somewhere unexpectedly.

It's tough to predict everything for "real world" scenarios, since a lot depends on snow/rain on the road, elevation changes, and driving styles. I think your best bet is to go to the Tesla Model S page, scroll down to the "Range Per Charge" section, and play around with the choices a bit to get a feel for how the range changes.


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## MelindaV (Apr 2, 2016)

I've seen many non-Tesla EV owners comment on the cold weather losses, more than current tesla owners. Is it possible tesla's power management / batteries handles the cold better than the others?


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## Dan Detweiler (Apr 8, 2016)

MelindaV said:


> I've seen many non-Tesla EV owners comment on the cold weather losses, more than current tesla owners. Is it possible tesla's power management / batteries handles the cold better than the others?


That is certainly possible but any battery is going to be less efficient in the cold. My Volt also has a thermal management system simular to Tesla's. The difference may be the cells themselves. The Volt uses a pouch cell while Tesla's cells look like a AA battery on steroids.

Dan


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## AEDennis (Apr 10, 2016)

Dan Detweiler said:


> That is certainly possible but any battery is going to be less efficient in the cold. My Volt also has a thermal management system simular to Tesla's. The difference may be the cells themselves. The Volt uses a pouch cell while Tesla's cells look like a AA battery on steroids.
> 
> Dan


Agree with this... I live in moderate climate, so not an expert, but the aforementioned Bjorn Nyland has a Youtube channel dedicated to his life with Tesla in Norway... They know about cold weather there.

Even 110V helps for those in the US that find themselves "without a plug" on the other end.


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## Mike (Apr 4, 2016)

MpowerSkills said:


> You're assuming a max range charge, which we know is bad. So I'd be charging to 80% which would mean 200 is my best range for daily use, degradation would bring it down from that point.
> 
> You know what would be awesome!!? A chart that shows the percentage of energy loss per degree below 15 Celsius per 15 minute intervals of parking unplugged time!
> 
> ...


I was a c130 navigator in the RCAF for 28 years (been retired 10 years now). Aircraft have tables for range,power, etc based on the temperature deviation from (International Civil Aviation Organization (ICAO) Standard Atmosphere ) a.k.a ISA deviation.
An ICAO standard atmosphere assumes a sea level temperature of 15C, pressure at 29.92 inches of mercury, a temperature fall of 2C per 1000 feet, etc.

So if your temperature at your location (say, 1000 feet above sea level) is 25C, the ISA should be 13C, your ISA deviation is +12C.

One then enters a set of charts for ISA +10 (+8 to +12) for performance and fuel flow coercion factors.

Where this ramble is going, I'd expect Tesla already has a data bank of charts that will provide the deviations for battery temperature based on exterior temperature already figured out.....I know fuel in the wings of a c130 is considered to be at the same temperature as the air around it after 3 hours.....Cheers.


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## Badback (Apr 7, 2016)

The caution about charging the battery pack to 100% comes from the tendency of Li batteries to plate lithium metal in tendrils on the cathode, especially at elevated temperatures. This happens over time as the battery sits at 100% charge. If you are going to start driving right away and bring the charge down to below 90% in a few minutes, then this is not a problem. If you are going to charge to 100% overnight and let the car sit for hours before you start driving, that is a problem. If the tendrils build so that they are in contact with the anode, then the cell is short circuited and taken out of the pack by the fusible link that connects each cell to the pack.

I see two big advantages to Tesla's small cell array as opposed to GM's pouch battery system.
1. If a cell fails, the impact in the Tesla design is much smaller.
2. The Tesla's small cells are easier to heat and cool because of the shorter thermal path to the core temperature.


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## MpowerSkills (May 1, 2016)

Badback said:


> The caution about charging the battery pack to 100% comes from the tendency of Li batteries to plate lithium metal in tendrils on the cathode, especially at elevated temperatures. This happens over time as the battery sits at 100% charge. If you are going to start driving right away and bring the charge down to below 90% in a few minutes, then this is not a problem. If you are going to charge to 100% overnight and let the car sit for hours before you start driving, that is a problem. If the tendrils build so that they are in contact with the anode, then the cell is short circuited and taken out of the pack by the fusible link that connects each cell to the pack.
> 
> I see two big advantages to Tesla's small cell array as opposed to GM's pouch battery system.
> 1. If a cell fails, the impact in the Tesla design is much smaller.
> 2. The Tesla's small cells are easier to heat and cool because of the shorter thermal path to the core temperature.


Thats great info! thanks! So you're saying I could max charge everyday as long as I time it out to finish charging right when I leave? Thats awesome!


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## AEDennis (Apr 10, 2016)

MpowerSkills said:


> Thats great info! thanks! So you're saying I could max charge everyday as long as I time it out to finish charging right when I leave? Thats awesome!


I used to do just that for several months... "In the early days..." Then realized i don't need to do so...


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## garsh (Apr 4, 2016)

MpowerSkills said:


> So you're saying I could max charge everyday as long as I time it out to finish charging right when I leave? Thats awesome!


I do that every single day in my Nissan Leaf.


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## Badback (Apr 7, 2016)

MpowerSkills said:


> Thats great info! thanks! So you're saying I could max charge everyday as long as I time it out to finish charging right when I leave? Thats awesome!


I would not recommend charging to 100% unless you actually need the extra range. The tendril plating problem is a cumulative effect, you would be shortening the battery life. On a road trip, you are generally heading out onto the highway, so the time it takes to reduce charge to 90% is relatively short. Probably not so for your daily commute.

Here is my source: 




I am a retired electrical engineer with 40+ years in the motor drives industry and I found this talk challenging. But, if you pay close attention, you will get a much better understanding of the problem.


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## TrevP (Oct 20, 2015)

FYI, Jeff Dahn in the video above works @ Tesla under contract.

https://chargedevs.com/newswire/tesla-hires-prominent-battery-researcher-jeff-dahn/


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## John (Apr 16, 2016)

I swear half these threads start off as one thing, and end up talking about cold weather.


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## franzellin (May 6, 2016)

1) what happens if after sometimes a few cells in the battery pack disconnect ( the fuse link is broken or something else) ?

2) I suppose that the software indicates the error, and could also modify something but what?
3) can you open the battery pack and exchange the wrong ones once you bring the car to the tesla garage?

thanks renato


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## TrevP (Oct 20, 2015)

The design of the modules is such that any cell's fusible link can fail and take the cell out of the circuit and not affect the module. The energy from that cell is lost but the module continues to function. The system does log and monitor the cells. 

The battery pack is not user serviceable. There are deadly voltages in there, only Tesla can service a pack.


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## Dan Detweiler (Apr 8, 2016)

TrevP said:


> The design of the modules is such that any cell's fusible link can fail and take the cell out of the circuit and not affect the module. The energy from that cell is lost but the module continues to function. The system does log and monitor the cells.
> 
> The battery pack is not user serviceable. There are deadly voltages in there, only Tesla can service a pack.


Is this something that a technician could or would check and fix at an annual service appointment then?

Dan


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## Mike (Apr 4, 2016)

John Beans said:


> I swear half these threads start off as one thing, and end up talking about cold weather.


I suppose that, anecdotally, it shows a large future customer base is located in areas where cold weather operations will be a factor in months of day to day operation.
I know that I'm looking at a $60k CDN investment in Model 3. I'd like to know, prior to that, how to expect to manage for the 6 cold months of the year. Cheers


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## MpowerSkills (May 1, 2016)

Badback said:


> I would not recommend charging to 100% unless you actually need the extra range. The tendril plating problem is a cumulative effect, you would be shortening the battery life. On a road trip, you are generally heading out onto the highway, so the time it takes to reduce charge to 90% is relatively short. Probably not so for your daily commute.
> 
> Here is my source:
> 
> ...


I am a retired electrical engineer with 40+ years in the motor drives industry and I found this talk challenging. But, if you pay close attention, you will get a much better understanding of the problem.[/QUOTE]

Wow! That was an intense training session! One thing that jumped out to me was at 1:07:20 when he seems to say that the Chevy Volt has a limit of max charge of 80%, so that even when it says its completely charged up it is actually just at 80% in order to protect the battery. Am I misunderstanding him? And is it possible that Tesla is doing the same?

Also he only talks about heat being bad. We know cold is bad too, right? But cold is only bad in the fact it limits the access to the power, not that it does long term damage to the battery? Right?


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## Dan Detweiler (Apr 8, 2016)

MpowerSkills said:


> Wow! That was an intense training session! One thing that jumped out to me was at 1:07:20 when he seems to say that the Chevy Volt has a limit of max charge of 80%, so that even when it says its completely charged up it is actually just at 80% in order to protect the battery. Am I misunderstanding him? And is it possible that Tesla is doing the same?


That is exactly the way the Volt works. 16kWh battery...about 12kWh available. Been driving mine that for 4 years. It also won't allow you to fully discharge the battery.


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## Badback (Apr 7, 2016)

MpowerSkills said:


> I am a retired electrical engineer with 40+ years in the motor drives industry and I found this talk challenging. But, if you pay close attention, you will get a much better understanding of the problem.


Wow! That was an intense training session! One thing that jumped out to me was at 1:07:20 when he seems to say that the Chevy Volt has a limit of max charge of 80%, so that even when it says its completely charged up it is actually just at 80% in order to protect the battery. Am I misunderstanding him? And is it possible that Tesla is doing the same?

Also he only talks about heat being bad. We know cold is bad too, right? But cold is only bad in the fact it limits the access to the power, not that it does long term damage to the battery? Right?[/QUOTE]

From what I have seen, Tesla does not do this.

A battery is an electro-chemical device. A chemical reaction must take place for it to release electrons. Cold inhibits all chemical reactions.


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## garsh (Apr 4, 2016)

MpowerSkills said:


> We know cold is bad too, right? But cold is only bad in the fact it limits the access to the power, not that it does long term damage to the battery? Right?


You understand correctly, but allow me to be pedantic for a minute. I know, shocking that someone on the internet wishes to be pedantic.

Cold isn't really bad for the battery. The battery is quite happy being cold. It just doesn't like to provide a whole lot of power when it's cold. So, cold is bad for *you*, as someone who wants to use the battery.


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## TrevP (Oct 20, 2015)

Tesla does have a "reserve" in their batteries to prevent "bricking". Lithium cells cannot really go below 3.7V otherwise you risk permanently damaging the cell. I have Lithium polymer cells in my drone and the minimum discharge is 3.7v and the max is 4.2v. The range is not very wide.


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## Michel Cote (May 19, 2016)

Range is not too important if we have access to chargers along the way
But that is not the case. It's not uncommon for me to do 800 km round trip that tip a bit outside main roads. so a 500km range would be welcomed especially in the winter knowing that it's reduced by 40%.
Just imagine you range that goes from 350km down to 200km minus margin ! Canada is a large country
I am used from 450km to 1100km range but I can live with 350km real life.
In the winter I will have to use supercharger stations twice a week. Not too kind on batteries.
Just for fun comparaison Gas charging speed is up to 13000 km/h (Honda insight 2006 filled in 5 minutes)

Lithium-ion have more range than lithium polymer
4.2-3.0V versus 4.2-3.7V
I generally use 4.1-3.4V on lithium-ion 
and 4.18-3.75 on lithium polymer


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## MpowerSkills (May 1, 2016)

Michel Cote said:


> In the winter I will have to use supercharger stations twice a week. Not too kind on batteries.


This is the first I've heard that Supercharging is bad for batteries... Is that right? I just thought range charging was bad.


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## garsh (Apr 4, 2016)

I'm finding conflicting reports.
http://www.autoblog.com/2014/10/06/fast-charging-your-ev-might-not-be-as-bad-as-predicted/
_Tesla Model S owners rejoice, for any reports of a lithium-ion battery's rapid demise from fast-charging might be highly exaggerated. A study put together by researchers from Stanford, Sandia National Laboratories and MIT and published in Nature Materials refutes previous reports that indicate that rapid charging and intense use of electric-vehicle batteries degrades them at a faster rate than a slower, steadier recharge-discharge process._


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## Michel Cote (May 19, 2016)

As bad as predicted, does mean there is some bad left.
It does not destroy batteries but I found that slower charging help the batterie to keep low internal resistance.
This is on new 18650 LG Chem batteries that I use. Tesla have access to better batteries.
And maybe I am too fussy. It may hurt batterie like ICE motor crusing at 120km/h instead of 100km/h not big difference.


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## TitanG (May 25, 2016)

I wonder how long it'll take for this to trickle into Tesla's battery technology, if it is applicable at their scale:

http://www.iflscience.com/technology/new-battery-can-be-recharged-hundreds-thousands-times


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## Topher (May 11, 2016)

John Beans said:


> I swear half these threads start off as one thing, and end up talking about cold weather.


Sounds like every conversation I have here in the wintertime. Summertime, they all devolve to Happy Fourth of July. 

Thank you kindly.


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## Michael Russo (Oct 15, 2016)

Recent data on T≡SLA's superior battery technology, recurrently showing proven minimal degradation over extensive use:
(Courtesy of Teslarati)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/853284377987567617
Yet another true source of sustainable competitive advantage !!


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## Michael Russo (Oct 15, 2016)

While far from perfect, this (rather long) article has at least the merit to remind those (few on TOO for sure... ) who don't get how crucial _success with batteries is key to success with EVs... _Elon took an enormous bet when deciding to build Gigafactory I back in 2003, yet with the formidable demand for Model ≡ evidenced by the (presumably in excess of) half a million reservations on their books, soon to yield that many cars produced in 2018, that bet is about to pay off! :tokyotower::sunrise:

http://www.vox.com/new-money/2017/4/17/15293892/tesla-batteries-gigafactory-bet


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## Michael Russo (Oct 15, 2016)

More, always welcome confirmation on the established sustainability of T≡SLA batteries compared to, for instance, the much less favorable experience of Nissan drivers. Posting this for you, @garsh & all you other Leaf owners, for the embedded link as to _how to negotiate your battery replacement_, as needed! 

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/858245534859055106


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## Michael Russo (Oct 15, 2016)

More data that confirms good battery life via Ben Sullins from Teslanomics:

https://cleantechnica.com/2017/05/19/show-me-the-data-the-truth-about-tesla-battery-degradation/


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## Michael Russo (Oct 15, 2016)

Courtesy of Evannex: 
The partnership with Panasonic is clearly one of T≡SLA's sources of competitive advantage!!


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/866346935661277184


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## Michael Russo (Oct 15, 2016)

Going back to basics... EV drive technology explained to the laymen... well done!


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/876056500787085312


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## Todd (Jun 6, 2017)

Tesla is starting Model 3 battery cell production at Gigafactory 1 'right now'

https://electrek.co/2017/06/19/tesla-model-3-battery-cell-production/


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## dudeman (Jun 20, 2017)

We saw news regarding them installing automation equipment to build M3 battery pack which they were building manually for RCs. I wonder if that is already installed and building out packs.

I assume for them to build out RCs, they were already producing cells at GF1.

Not sure what this news reveals. Higher volume? More automation than before?


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## EValuatED (Apr 29, 2017)

dudeman said:


> We saw news regarding them installing automation equipment to build M3 battery pack which they were building manually for RCs. I wonder if that is already installed and building out packs.
> 
> I assume for them to build out RCs, they were already producing cells at GF1.
> 
> Not sure what this news reveals. Higher volume? More automation than before?


Per recent news reports (Teslarati & Teslanomics) at least the initial "hand" assembly is happening before full automated production is online (which should come quickly). Panasonic 2170 battery cells, into 7 sections, to make a full Model 3 battery module at the Gigafactory. Production will reportedly ramp to orders of magnitude faster fully automated production (from 40 to 4000 modules/day). And given modern automated/robotic production it should be, so the most recent Tesla statement may indicate the beginning of automated production is happening.


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## $ Trillion Musk (Nov 5, 2016)

Michael Russo said:


> Going back to basics... EV drive technology explained to the laymen... well done!
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/876056500787085312


Seemingly innocent but powerful video. Automakers should take heed... ICE is DOOMED.


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## Peter Egan (Jun 6, 2017)

dudeman said:


> We saw news regarding them installing automation equipment to build M3 battery pack which they were building manually for RCs. I wonder if that is already installed and building out packs.
> 
> I assume for them to build out RCs, they were already producing cells at GF1.
> 
> Not sure what this news reveals. Higher volume? More automation than before?


The cells have to age for X days and undergo charging cycles before they can go in the pack. Tesla Automation Germany is supplying machines to build the power electronics - A lot of stuff happening at the Gigafactory before production start at Fremont.


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## Butchmank9 (Oct 24, 2016)

I just read an article about the Tesla Roadster 3.0 pack, which has a capacity close to 80 kWh. So why can't tesla do better with the model 3. I'm super sure the bottom of the Roadster is much smaller then the model 3. Do you think so also? Not unless I'm missing something. 

Thanks


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## EValuatED (Apr 29, 2017)

(Found above image at zenmotoring dot com.)

Roadster (Lotus-based) has the battery pack in the mid/rear "engine" compartment. I don't have measurements, but suspect it is large in volume (and stacked) as the battery tech when it was designed pre-2010 offered less power density, etc.


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## Watts4me (Nov 25, 2016)

Just like Tesla found additional space in the Model S for a bigger battery, I'm sure the same will happen for the Model 3.


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## Butchmank9 (Oct 24, 2016)

Thanks for the information. Much appreciate.

Dennis


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## Peter Egan (Jun 6, 2017)

Butchmank9 said:


> I just read an article about the Tesla Roadster 3.0 pack, which has a capacity close to 80 kWh. So why can't tesla do better with the model 3. I'm super sure the bottom of the Roadster is much smaller then the model 3. Do you think so also? Not unless I'm missing something.
> 
> Thanks


Roadster batteries are behind the seats, not under the floor. Elon said 75 kWh is the the max that will fit in the space he has created for the M3 battery. I think a rane over 300 miles for a 75 kWh battery adequate. I think it better to invest in light batteries and lighter vehicle to increase range, than increase battery size.

Major Tier 1 suppliers like Bosch and Continental are investing heavily in new electric drivetrains. I would like to see simpler drivetrains - perhaps with a motor for each wheel and four-wheel steering.


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## Watts4me (Nov 25, 2016)

I'm willing to bet that in the future more than 75kwh will be able to fit in the model 3. I'm having a hard time believing that 75kwh is the max forever.


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## Bokonon (Apr 13, 2017)

Watts4me said:


> I'm willing to bet that in the future more than 75kwh will be able to fit in the model 3. I'm having a hard time believing that 75kwh is the max forever.


Another way of saying this is: "I'm willing to bet that the energy density of Li-ion batteries did not abruptly reached its maximum as of Elon's Tweet on March 25th, 2017, after decades of steadily increasing."


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## Watts4me (Nov 25, 2016)

Bokonon said:


> Another way of saying this is: "I'm willing to bet that the energy density of Li-ion batteries did not abruptly reached its maximum as of Elon's Tweet on March 25th, 2017, after decades of steadily increasing."


Exactly


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