# Ford Mustang Mach-E



## thredge (Mar 24, 2017)

So, wanted to get a thread started on the Mach-E & the reveal event, so we can discuss.

I think it looks like a real effort. I'm checking out the configurations right now, and it does look to be something of a competitor with the Model Y for sure. Some of the configurations like the GT 7 the Select (looks like the base range version), say Packages Coming soon still, so will be interesting to see more on that.
https://www.ford.com/buy/mach-e/build-and-price.html?config=WANAB-CGW-2021-CX727#/model

On the Reveal Event.

I'll give them credit for only the one dig at Tesla that I noticed (on the display in front of the driver).
Sorry guys, but it was boring, there was so much dead time and straight monotone reading from scripts. It was so forced.
The Cars! - also when they brought the cars out, they went back to a closeup of the guy talking... WTF, show us the cars, who's running this thing? You just unveiled the car and only gave us a few seconds glmps at it? I know it was leaked earlier in the week, but common man! I'll give them credit after the wrapup they did a little better job doing some moves around the GT car to check it out.
"Largest Charging Network of Any Automaker"? - this one is interesting, would like to see the footnote on this one. I don't have any high speed chargers around me that aren't Superchargers.
Hands Free Driving Capability? - what is this and why no details? They said with secure over the air software updates, it would be future upgradeable to hands free driving and didn't explain that. Also he said "product" and "performance" enhancements, but didn't explain if that was just a software thing or included hardware. I don't really see any cameras or sensors, so not sure how this works.


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## JWardell (May 9, 2016)

Did anyone else watch the reveal? Cringeworthy scene after cringeworthy scene. Everything was so scripted yet uncomfortably acted. Elon might not be a great speaker, but at least he is real and just himself. 
No technical information, vague performance statements, even a fully rendered CGI "race" with other mustangs.
Thankfully, it looks like Ford did a much better job with the vehicle than the presentation. I really don't like the front end, the back is find, but it does look great from the side. Of course it is a small SUV and it should sell like hotcakes. Pricing is reasonable around $50k with a reasonable range. Of course they need 100kWh to do what Tesla does with 75. But I think commendably good for their first go at a full EV.


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## JWardell (May 9, 2016)

I just put my thought in the other Mach-E thread. 

[MOD EDIT: merged threads]


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## thredge (Mar 24, 2017)

LOL, I saw it was last updated 3 hours ago, so I thought I'd start a clean one, but maybe they will get combined.

More Stuff:

1st All Electric Vehicle - @evchels brought up that Ford has made many all electrics in the past, but thought most people probably didn't know that.
1st Edition - 270 mile range with 98.8kWh (they forgot the 'h' on the end in the descripiton), 0-60 in the Mid 5s.
GT - 250 miles 98.8 kWh battery, this looks like the one they are shooting for the 3.5s range.
California RT.1 Edition - this looks like the 300 mile range one, with 98.8 kWh battery and 0-60 in mid 6s range.
98.8 kWh Battery seems to be the Extended Range one, when selecting an option, for a split secnod you can see the Standard Range Battery -RWD with 230 mile target range and 75.7 kW battery.


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## Dangermouse (Apr 27, 2016)

Curious where they found room for 98.8 kWh...pouch cells more compact? Or double stack at the rear seat?


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## Needsdecaf (Dec 27, 2018)

Lotta cheese for sure. And the tele-prompters were lolz. 

Tesla reveals are a cringeworthy Elon speech about the history of Tesla (again) followed by zero info about the car, so not much better, imo. The Taycan was also terrible. 

Really, who thinks these reveals are any good?


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## Jay79 (Aug 18, 2018)

Looks like a Tesla rip off to me, not impressed.


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## 3V Pilot (Sep 15, 2017)

Just watched the reveal, really hoping Ford might do something but it just falls flat on its face for me. The whole thing screams "Make a Tesla built by Ford". Front end looks like they copied the original Model S, same with the interior but cheaper looking. The poor efficiency of this thing really shows how far ahead Tesla is. Sorry Mr. Ford, too little, too late, too plagiarized. And oh, they never mentioned if the over the air updates would always be free.........(I'm guessing not).


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## thredge (Mar 24, 2017)

OK, I know you guys might harp on me for this, but after letting all the stuff sink in, I think my biggest disappointment in the Mach-E is the range. It seems like they let styling win over efficiency in the range department. I'm a little shocked that they have to use a 100 kWh battery to get to 270 miles in the mid 5s 0-60 version, and that the GT will only get 250 miles with that sized battery? It feels like you have to chose your desired world and can't have it all (range and performance), in the same package.

On the vehicle itself, I'm a little torn. On one hand, they copied the heck out of the Tesla stable with this thing. Looks, size, features, the best form of flattery they say, and I think that was smart. They really studied the benchmark. At the same time they missed the mark on efficiency, and I know it's hard to match the best in the biz. I'm also disappointing though, they didn't take all they learned from the Tesla and really do their own car. Like I said, torn. I can't wait to check this thing out.

I do hope they are serious, but I'm getting queasy feelings of sorriness for them already. This charger thing better pan out, so every day people have good experiences. I kind of feel like the could go all in, but overdelivering could mess them up, and I'm starting to think this is going to be a really tentative roll out at best. It doesn't really sound like we are going to get any details on their plans for production numbers until they are actually producing and delivering cars though?


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## shareef777 (Mar 10, 2019)

This isn’t going anywhere. Tesla has set the standard years ago. If you’re going to release a car in another year or two from now, at least match the range Tesla released a year or two AGO!


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## JWardell (May 9, 2016)

Dangermouse said:


> Curious where they found room for 98.8 kWh...pouch cells more compact? Or double stack at the rear seat?


I saw somewhere the battery has 250-350 cells, so they would be giant pouch cells. Curious what brand they will be.


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## $ Trillion Musk (Nov 5, 2016)

Mustang is sort of an appropriate name... this Mach E is the modern day equivalent of the horse & buggy back in the days of the Model T.

Ford is the disrupted one this time around, unfortunately. 

There’s nothing new or groundbreaking or compelling about this car. And they foolishly badge their decades long racing heritage on top of it! Plus the Tesla Model Y would already be out in the wild for several months by the time deliveries begin for the Mach E, giving Tesla first mover advantage. It goes to show that the folks at Ford don’t know WTF they’re doing. 

I’m a current Ford EV owner BTW.


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## DanSz (Feb 1, 2019)

JWardell said:


> I saw somewhere the battery has 250-350 cells, so they would be giant pouch cells. Curious what brand they will be.


288 cells in the SR. 33% more in the LR. Made by LG. Pouch cells.


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## Love (Sep 13, 2017)

Maybe I'll revisit this post later and find it too harsh, however my reaction to the Ford MOCKERY event last night was shaking my head in confused disbelief leading to disappointment. I even waited to post to see if my mind would change after sleeping (plus I was too tired to be bothered to write). Alas, my disgust remains...

That event was an absolute joke full of CGI (why?), hired Hollywood actors, and a choir of some kind??!? What the hell was Ford doing? For a 45 minute presentation, there was like 5 minutes of actual showing vehicles (allbeit with lights down low and smoke machines going). You don't go to a vehicle reveal event to see other Mustangs, listen to Brixton yap with some Ford exces about their great legacy and blah blah blah, SHOW THE CAR!!!

I did not tune in to see CGI races, no inside shots (other than them going over what the UI is _going to look like_ (but even that was just rendered? CGI?) and then once the actual vehicles came out it was pretty much the end of the event... what a joke.


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## SoFlaModel3 (Apr 15, 2017)

I am happy to see a real EV, but that event was pretty fluffy. It really comes down to dealers and if they will sell it. For me calling it a Mustang and making it a crossover SUV was interesting...


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## garsh (Apr 4, 2016)

SoFlaModel3 said:


> I am happy to see a real EV, but that event was pretty fluffy.


And that's why I much prefer Elon's awkward on-stage ramblings to a "slick presentation".


> It really comes down to dealers and if they will sell it.


Ford is going to have to throw some sort of bone to the dealers. Dealers aren't going to want to sell a zero-maintenance vehicle. Maybe Ford will "pull a Nissan" and require annual brake-fluid changes. 


> For me calling it a Mustang and making it a crossover SUV was interesting...


I take this as a positive sign. Ignore the weirdness of attaching the Mustang name to an SUV instead of a pony car. Using the "Mustang" name pretty much *forces* Ford to make this an extremely compelling vehicle. You _don't_ want to be the CEO that killed off the "Mustang" cash cow.


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## iChris93 (Feb 3, 2017)

garsh said:


> Maybe Ford will pull a Nissan and require annual brake-fluid changes.


Did the car annoy you until you had it done?


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## 3V Pilot (Sep 15, 2017)

I'd be real interested to know how many pre-orders they get. I'm sure that number will never be released due to it being embarrassing low compared to Tesla. I'm guessing less than 10K but I'm sure there are a few die hard Ford fans out there who will buy this thing. If you have half a brain and compare the specs to the Model Y the decision is clear and unless you really hate Tesla.


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## Gordon87 (Mar 5, 2019)

Dangermouse said:


> Curious where they found room for 98.8 kWh...pouch cells more compact? Or double stack at the rear seat?


yes, seems like an added battery stack under the rear seat. See https://www.ford.com/buy/mach-e/bui...ANAB-CGW-2021-CX727#/range?series=ACMRJ_VS-LE


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## slacker775 (May 30, 2018)

I think that the positives of the Mach-E are that it brings more people to the EV party. By all accounts, it doesn’t look like Ford mailed it in for a compliance car with this one, and that is definitely a positive sign. That this is priced ‘competitively’ with Tesla also really helps to expand the playing field. Things like the Leaf’s and Bolt’s of the world simply aren’t compelling offerings compared to a Model 3. Ford has withheld a good bit of info with this and when it hits the streets that could be very telling. Interestingly, price comparing the Mach-E to a Model Y and the Y comes out a smidge cheaper, albeit without FSD and sans the $7500 tax rebate. 

As others have pointed out, the real test will be: will dealers sell it? Will they know how to sell it? Will they be able to answer customers questions around charging? Will they not want to push it due to lack of maintenance back-end? It may take Ford offering all kinds of rebates and things to be able to move this past the dealer ‘blockade’.

Time will certainly tell.


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## Madmolecule (Oct 8, 2018)

I still don't think the automakers are taking EVs seriously yet. It least they are doing better than their last attempt to meet ZEV regulations and market demand. In the early 2000s they tried to take the NEV shortcut. Instead of building an electric car, just give away golf carts. It did succeed in making virtually no one, except some retirement neighborhoods where 19mph is fast enough, want an EV car over and ICE car.

NEV Roundup

GM Jolts Electric Market

Quote from one of the articles (it was from back in 2002 but I think it still applies to the Rivian, Mach-e and Electric F-150:

"This brings up what seems to be a reasonable question: "Can an automobile dealership that deals exclusively with internal combustion engines be expected to know how to repair and maintain electric vehicles?""


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## dburkland (Nov 12, 2018)

I watched the entire event and a few thoughts that others have echoed:

* The battery tech is 5+ years behind Tesla but is this really a surprise? Guessing they went very conservative over-provisioning the battery to ensure consistent fast charging without worrying about degradation.
* One or both of the motors on the AWD variant is a permanent magnet motor, is Ford the first to use this motor design outside of Tesla? Could it be the motor(s) are sourced from Rivian?
* The minimalist interior design is a step in the right direction but why ruin a perfectly good display by placing a physical knob on top of it? If this doesn’t show the auto industry is going through their own iPhone-moment I don’t know what does.
* The exterior design looks to be a mix of a Model Y and a Mustang and not in a good way (my opinion)
* OTA update functionality is great, especially the idea that “hands free driving“ is coming via an update (how long who knows)
* The choir and the executive trying to high five them after (and almost missing the hands of the artists) was cringe-worthy as hell
* The presentation was overall pretty damn cringe-worthy, way too scripted and came off as my grandparents trying to be cool and sell technology (by saying the word technology every other word)

Overall Ford seems to be taking EVs seriously (which is great!) but their biggest hurdle will be getting dealers to actually want to sell this.


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## garsh (Apr 4, 2016)

iChris93 said:


> Did the car annoy you until you had it done?


No, thankfully. I used test strips to check the brake fluid annually. I never had to change it in 6 years.


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## garsh (Apr 4, 2016)

dburkland said:


> is Ford the first to use this motor design outside of Tesla?


Nope. In fact, I think just about everybody but Tesla was using some form of PM motor in their EVs. Tesla was the only one using an induction motor. But that's not to say that Tesla is just following everyone else - there are many different kinds of PM motors, and Tesla's is quite interesting and unique.


> but why ruin a perfectly good display by placing a physical knob on top of it?


Are you opposed to the knob in general, or just the fact that it's on top of the display rather than right below it? Personally, I'd prefer to have a few more physical controls in a car than what the 3 has, so I might actually prefer the addition of a knob like this.


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## Madmolecule (Oct 8, 2018)

I would be ok with a couple more knobs, just not on the console. I used to have a car with seat heater switches on the console which I think the dogs would turn on for fun. Mine are getting more adept at using their nose on the screen to come up with new ways to change everything.


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## MelindaV (Apr 2, 2016)

being a vintage Mustang owner, regardless of the EV side of things, I am more than a little bothered that they are branding a SUV as a Mustang. A mustang is a 2 door coupe - not an SUV. WTF.


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## Needsdecaf (Dec 27, 2018)

Wow, some really harsh criticisms here.

My thoughts from the event:

1. All these reveals are terribly cheesy. I am an automotive fan and watch more than my fair share of them. The last have been the 992 version 911, the Porsche Taycan and the Model Y. They all sucked, in our own way. The Model Y was pretty bad in that they literally showed you like 2 minutes of the car, no specs, no nothing, then poof, done. So essentially what you got was Elon discussing the history of Tesla. Porsche Taycan was the same formula. At least Ford had some additional details and some more shots of the car. But really, they all suck.

2. To those of you saying that car manufacturers aren't taking EV's seriously, I really beg to differ. If you don't think that sacrificing the Mustang name at the altar of a crossover EV isn't taking things seriously then you guys need to be in tune with the auto industry a little more closely. This is it for Ford. This is their big play.

3. And I think it's a good play. Come on guys, you keep decrying these manufacturers because they can't match the specs of the Tesla, but I don't think for a second that's because they are half-assing it. Tesla is just that far ahead. Does it have the efficiency of the Tesla? No. Does it have more than enough range to satisfy 99% of buyers? Yup. And performance too with the GT.

4. Ford stated that they have 2,100 dealers trained and certified to sell the E-Stang (as I call it, much better than Mach E, lol). 2,100. That's a lot of places to get the car serviced and a lot of investment in training and equipment. There are fewer than 350 BMW dealers in the entire country, as a comparison. So this is a very seriously effort.

5. Ford was very quick to start working on the typical anti-EV myths. Bad in poor weather. Can't charge anywhere. Not exciting. Etc. They called them out and answered them. I think their magical charging network is a bit of a sham, IMO. I think many of the chargers that they allude to in partnering with EA and Ionity are not fast, or have restricted access. Personally I'd rather have the supercharger network. But they were also quick to point out that more than 80% of charging comes at home. Which is something that Tesla surely knows. And with major manufacturers like VW, Ford, etc. getting behind charging, this is the push that's needed to get the charging network rolling beyond Tesla.

I see a lot of sentiment against this car, both here and from other Tesla owners on other social media. I honestly think this is a terrible stance for a Tesla owner to take. Don't we want more EV's? Do we want the E-Stang to succeed or fail? I certainly want it to succeed. I think it's important to the growing acceptance of EV's in the marketplace. Ford is launching this car as a Mustang to try to give it as much of a shot of succeeding as it possibly can, and I will personally be rooting for it. But overall, I think it's an excellent entry into the market. Don't forget, Tesla owners are kind of a unique breed. We like the weird and quirky, we like software updates, we can deal with bugs and nags. The automotive buying pool is full of people who HATE cars. Who view them as appliances and really want not much to do with them. So Ford simply can't get too radical. They are too mainstream of a manufacturer. I for one think that they hit this one out of the park.

Jonny Lieberman of MotorTrend echoed my sentiments here. Consider what this veteran automotive journalist has to say:

https://www.motortrend.com/news/202...-electric-suv-photos-performance-release-date


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## Quicksilver (Dec 29, 2016)

Also watched the reveal and came away impressed with the car, not necessarily the presentation. Pretty much a Tesla clone. Even the nose cone reminds me of the old Model S. It also reminds me of the iPace, even the glass roof design looks like the iPace version. Overall, Elon's mission is to get others to jump into the EV game and it is working. What's interesting is they named their team Edison - competitor to Tesla. I noticed no door handles but I am sure they are there. I am more than happy to see another legacy maker going into EV. I do hope they are successful with this vehicle. Not everyone wants a Tesla and the more EVs produced and sold mean less ICE vehicles on the road.

Edit: found the door handles...interesting...


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## Madmolecule (Oct 8, 2018)

Ford is not only not taking EV Cars seriously, they are not even taking cars seriously. They have given up trying to compete with Toyota, Honda, Hyundai and Kia on making cars so they are only selling trucks. It's not that there is not a market for cars, just not Ford cars. what was displayed is not an E-mustang. They are just using the name to pull on the heart strings of the sentimental crowd. For years I have heard about the revolutionary design of the Mustang or the amazing engineering that went into a VW Bug. After rebuilding a beetle many times I have come to realize it was just half-assed engineering and was really terrible, especially when you see real revolutionary engineering like a Tesla. The Big 3 have spent billions on R&D over the past decade and they have come up with only excuses and nothing very revolutionary. I spent my youth trying to start a Briggs and Straton lawnmower only find out later in life that a lawnmower should start on the first or second pull every time. Now with electric lawnmowers that discussion doesn't even make since. We are not using B&S electric revolutionary lawnmowers and I don't believe we will be driving Electric Ford Mustangs either, other than the nostalgic crowd with extra money to burn.


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## M3OC Rules (Nov 18, 2016)

It's a tough road so I give them some credit for trying. This seems like a good place to start by justifying a higher price with a performance SUV since they are getting away from cars. Every electric car that succeeds means more public chargers and normalization of electric vehicles. Of course, we'd all like to see someone leapfrog Tesla in terms of efficiency, performance, etc. but Tesla has a pretty big technological and charging infrastructure lead. Hopefully, Mach-E is good enough to succeed. Not everyone likes Tesla or their styling.

I don't think they should have mentioned they called the team Edison given the Theranos thing and the presentation in California. Too soon.


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## TrevP (Oct 20, 2015)

Needsdecaf said:


> Lotta cheese for sure. And the tele-prompters were lolz.
> 
> Tesla reveals are a cringeworthy Elon speech about the history of Tesla (again) followed by zero info about the car, so not much better, imo. The Taycan was also terrible.
> 
> Really, who thinks these reveals are any good?


None of the car companies appear to have watched an Apple presentation or taken any notes about their stagecraft.

Dancers? Really??


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## shareef777 (Mar 10, 2019)

TrevP said:


> None of the car companies appear to have watched an Apple presentation or taken any notes about their stagecraft.
> 
> Dancers? Really??


Apple isn't much better. They talk up about the number of devices/installs they have, the way they've revolutionized the industry, and how great the company is doing. I remember the hype around their MacBook Pro with the Touch Bar (2016) and how the keyboard was universally hated. Then year after year they keep talking it up and how great pro's think it is (they don't). They finally addressed the keyboard issue this year by going back to a design from years ago, and it was just a silent update on their site. No event of any sort.

The Tesla Semi/Roadster reveal was awesome. They were front and center and the talk was all about them. They showed hard numbers and provided actual details. And this is something that most people will never buy or even sit in. I feel like the Model Y reveal is exactly what Apple does. Give you a history of every product and the state of the company (details most people don't care about) and just left the product at the end. People on-site get to see the details, while the rest of us have to scrounge around the net for any details we can get.


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## Needsdecaf (Dec 27, 2018)

shareef777 said:


> Apple isn't much better. They talk up about the number of devices/installs they have, the way they've revolutionized the industry, and how great the company is doing. I remember the hype around their MacBook Pro with the Touch Bar (2016) and how the keyboard was universally hated. Then year after year they keep talking it up and how great pro's think it is (they don't). They finally addressed the keyboard issue this year by going back to a design from years ago, and it was just a silent update on their site. No event of any sort.
> 
> The Tesla Semi/Roadster reveal was awesome. They were front and center and the talk was all about them. They showed hard numbers and provided actual details. And this is something that most people will never buy or even sit in. I feel like the Model Y reveal is exactly what Apple does. Give you a history of every product and the state of the company (details most people don't care about) and just left the product at the end. People on-site get to see the details, while the rest of us have to scrounge around the net for any details we can get.


Yeah, I didn't see the Semi / Roadster reveal.

These product launches in general fall a little flat.


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## shareef777 (Mar 10, 2019)

Needsdecaf said:


> Yeah, I didn't see the Semi / Roadster reveal.
> 
> These product launches in general fall a little flat.


Check it out if you have a quick 30min. Gives you details of the trucking industry and some cool numbers around it. The 0-60 times of a fully loaded diesel trailer is interesting. Crazy to think how fast a Tesla Semi can pull that much weight. Gets you a great idea of just how efficient and powerful an electric drive unit is. Especially when considering the semi is just using Model3 motors.


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## skygraff (Jun 2, 2017)

I don't have any qualms (re)welcoming Ford to the EV party and, even though I'm no fan of the CUV (or even SUV) trend - especially marketed with sports car names, I sincerely appreciate the move away from weird-mobiles in the EV designs thanks to Tesla's lead.

I'm glad I didn't watch the reveal, based on these comments.

Is it just me or does the name invoke some culinary imagery? Can't wait to see how they implement roll mode.


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## Tesla Newbie (Aug 2, 2017)

I like the ‘stang. I‘m firmly in Tesla’s corner and can’t imagine being swayed to buy something else, but I think the Ford is a compelling choice for people’s foray into e-cars. Especially in huge swaths of the country where there’s a Ford dealer (with nothing but F150’s in the lot) on every corner. 

I hope this propels Tesla to release some official photos of the Y. The glossy professional photos of the Maki (easier to type than Mach E) make the spy photo Y’s (Wise?) look dull in comparison. More important, I hope the looming launch of the Maki propels Tesla to offer the Y with additional colors and options that (I assume - haven’t confirmed) will be standard or at least available on the Ford. Competition is good!

Has anyone seen a size comparison (length, interior volume, storage capacity etc.) between the two cars. It’s hard to tell from photos how the two cars compare.


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## Tesla Newbie (Aug 2, 2017)

Ha! We were typing at the same time @skygraff and repeated each other's sushi reference!


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## Needsdecaf (Dec 27, 2018)

Two things from Lieberman's article I wanted to highlight:



> A Mustang-badged electric vehicle? And an SUV, at that? Really? Yeah, for real. Ford leveraged the brand's great strengths-namely, the fact that almost every person on earth likes the Mustang. *Not only that (and I found this next part particularly gratifying to learn), but performance car customers are also much better educated about battery electric vehicles (BEVs) than the average car buyer. *


No surprise there.



> One of the hurdles to BEV adoption is the persistent myths about cars powered by batteries. A few Ford shared with us: 92 percent of new car buyers think electric cars are toylike; 75 percent wouldn't drive a BEV in extreme weather; 51 percent suffer from range anxiety; and thanks to the success of the Toyota Prius, 42 percent think that BEVs require gasoline. The solution then, if you're going to sell an electric car, is to attract the buyers who think EV tech is sexy. Who dat? People who dig performance.


Totally making my point. Everything I gleaned from the presentation and the specs of the car was corroborated by the stats shown here. Ford knows the market. These are the hurdles to overcome. The decision to name this a Mustang was likely no small one. They must have felt it was the best way to work through those objections above. It worked for Tesla. Tesla is a success entirely because they proved that an EV could be COOL. And that it could be enjoyable and desirable. Not a penalty box on wheels. But something that was, in fact, BETTER to drive. Not just different.

Ford hitching their EV wagon to the Mustang name (see what i did there) proves they understand why Tesla is successful. Stealing Tesla's playbook (minimalist interior, OTA updates, full connectivity, customization, tech, etc.) proves they have done their homework. As I've said, Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery. Should we deride them for pretty blatantly ripping off Tesla? No, I don't think so. They need this thing to sell.


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## Love (Sep 13, 2017)

Needsdecaf said:


> Yeah, I didn't see the Semi / Roadster reveal.
> 
> These product launches in general fall a little flat.


The semi reveal was cool, but when the trailer opened up, the beastie boys started playing and the roadster came out... now THAT was a presentation!

I want to clarify that I've not even given the Mach-E vehicle itself a good enough once over to comment... my post from earlier is directed only at the presentation/event.


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## JasonF (Oct 26, 2018)

I'm impressed that Ford is actually going to give some attention to building a charging network. That's the one factor which shows they are taking this EV thing more seriously than simple compliance car.

Welcome to the future, Ford. What took you so long?


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## GDN (Oct 30, 2017)

MelindaV said:


> being a vintage Mustang owner, regardless of the EV side of things, I am more than a little bothered that they are branding a SUV as a Mustang. A mustang is a 2 door coupe - not an SUV. WTF.


They've done their job because they got people interested and talking. What would we all be talking about if it had been the e-Fiesta ! I don't think near as many people would have cared.

I'm just very glad I already own a 3.


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## 3V Pilot (Sep 15, 2017)

Even my 16 year old daughter, who doesn't care about cars at all, said "That Mustang logo just doesn't look right on something that is not a Mustang."

I'm thinking they've missed the mark on just about every demographic that might have been the customer base for this thing. Just my opinion, time will tell.


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## Needsdecaf (Dec 27, 2018)

MelindaV said:


> being a vintage Mustang owner, regardless of the EV side of things, I am more than a little bothered that they are branding a SUV as a Mustang. A mustang is a 2 door coupe - not an SUV. WTF.


Andrew Frankel of Drive Nation (and other outlets) said it best I think when he said "Ford's calculation is the number of loyalists it offends will be smaller than the number of early adopters it entices".


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## Needsdecaf (Dec 27, 2018)

GDN said:


> They've done their job because they got people interested and talking. What would we all be talking about if it had been the e-Fiesta ! I don't think near as many people would have cared.
> 
> I'm just very glad I already own a 3.


The car should already be on the ground, but it was originally going to be a more traditional CUV shape with FWD. Someone at Ford said..."not sexy enough" and it was turned into a Mustang.

Click on the link and look at the green outline. Bears more than a little resemblance to a Model Y, no?

https://www.motor1.com/news/382783/ford-mustang-mach-e-boring-front-drive-compliance-car/


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## shareef777 (Mar 10, 2019)

Needsdecaf said:


> The car should already be on the ground, but it was originally going to be a more traditional CUV shape with FWD. Someone at Ford said..."not sexy enough" and it was turned into a Mustang.
> 
> Click on the link and look at the green outline. Bears more than a little resemblance to a Model Y, no?
> 
> https://www.motor1.com/news/382783/ford-mustang-mach-e-boring-front-drive-compliance-car/


First thing I saw was an old MazdaSpeed3 that I'd previously owned (a hatchback). Even the final design still reminds me of that hatchback, especially the red version.


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## MelindaV (Apr 2, 2016)

3V Pilot said:


> Even my 16 year old daughter, who doesn't care about cars at all, said "That Mustang logo just doesn't look right on something that is not a Mustang."
> 
> I'm thinking they've missed the mark on just about every demographic that might have been the customer base for this thing. Just my opinion, time will tell.


my neighbor works for Ford and drives a Mustang (that he hand washes most every evening). I plan to ask his opinion on them naming this thing a Mustang next time I see him outside.


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## DanSz (Feb 1, 2019)

If Ford was going to sell a performance EV, what name should they use that evokes performance? Their only answer is _Mustang_.

The best thing Ford can do is get people to talk about it. They have achieved that. For once, they didn't take a conservative approach.

This would not have happened if they called it _Thunderbird, _nor if they gave it a new name which would evoke no feelings whatsoever. And Taurus? No way!

Ford went after the growing CUV market instead of a sedan. Smart. This is one vehicle that actually compares to the upcoming Model Y (unlike the Chevy Bolt).

On styling, I'd rather they make a car that some people might hate because someone out there will love it. Make a bland-styled car and no one will do neither. No one writes about a car they couldn't care less about.

This was a smart move by Ford. Whether or not it works for them is the part for which we have to wait and see.


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## cabbie (Feb 17, 2019)

Was just on the Ford web site and they claim 12,000 charging sites but when I click on the interactive map I get nothing. 
Love my Tesla


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## GDN (Oct 30, 2017)

I just hit the web site for the first time. My first negative, why so many models? I know Tesla has screwed with the 3 a few times and hope it has settled out and they have enough information to know what variants of the Y to have, but 5 models of this one, with different options, just like all traditional mfrs, just way too many. I didn't do the math, but I bet you can get 100 variants not counting paint colors. 3 levels should cover it. When you get to the top range, just load it. Most everyone wants it that way or will give one way or the other.

I'll say it looks like most other small SUV's, but it's actually nice looking. Some very nice wheel options, great colors and if they don't make it in CA, likely some very good paint. Looks like they've integrated their almost standard LED color change interior lighting which is a nice touch and heated seats/steering wheel and automatic rear lift gate (how many have complained about that with Tesla) I'll have to go research their Co-Pilot Technology to see if it can ever hold a candle to Tesla, but overall a nice start. 

Their charging is like most traditional mfrs, their statements are very very misleading for now on certain aspects. While it touts 40 miles to any charger for most of the US - the foot note says that is basically line of sight, not driving distance and when I map my 200 mile drive to my mom's using their whole network I get tons of chargers along the way. However, select only FordPass in network and it drops to half and if I select only the DC fast chargers which they keep emphasizing for such quick charges I only have 4 options along my path. This is about the same number of Superchargers I have, but there is a huge difference - 2 of the 4 options are at Harley Davidson dealers where there is a SINGLE plug. Not a Supercharger with 10 to 16 spots. So the basic consumer walking in to Ford will buy that load of BS hook line and sinker.

It will all shake out and to be honest, this isn't a bad looking vehicle. Not enough there to make me ever consider it over Tesla, but it will win people over, because they want a Ford, because they want a Mustang, because they'll believe the same crap the traditional dealers will sell you on. Then in a year or two it will start to water the EV market and make people want to say we told you so, because it's not going to hold up to things like 12,000 charging locations if you don't get to the Harley Davidson dealership before your 20 neighbors do for that single plug.

Edit - I'll add that I think this and any competition for Tesla and the EV market is a good thing. People will have options. Tesla will need to do a few things like adding that heated steering wheel, automatic trunks. and hopefully soon CCS charging as an option the US. Competition is good.


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## JWardell (May 9, 2016)

This might make more sense if Ford is planning to make Mustang its own sub brand and have 3 or 4 different Mustangs.

Nothing is shipping for a year and they gave out no hard numbers so they have plenty of room to change what they want.



cabbie said:


> Was just on the Ford web site and they claim 12,000 charging sites but when I click on the interactive map I get nothing.
> Love my Tesla


Ford is counting every chargepoint and Electrify America charger as the "Ford network" even though 99% of those are slow AC chargers or not more than two stalls.


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## Love (Sep 13, 2017)

JWardell said:


> Ford is counting every chargepoint and Electrify America charger as the "Ford network" even though 99% of those are slow AC chargers or not more than two stalls.


...so, can Tesla claim all those chargers as _theirs_ too? Too funny.


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## Gordon87 (Mar 5, 2019)

JWardell said:


> This might make more sense if Ford is planning to make Mustang its own sub brand and have 3 or 4 different Mustangs.


That may be the plan. See

https://leftlanenews.com/ford/ford-mustang-nameplate-to-become-sub-brand/

Here is another interesting take: https://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2019/11/qotd-you-knew-this-was-coming/#more-1697650


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## bwilson4web (Mar 4, 2019)

"Autoline After Hours" is doing a program on Thursday, November 21 @3:00 PM EST, with the Ford team:

Dave Pericak, Ford Engineering Director
Chris Walter, Ford Exterior Design Manager
Interviewers: Eric Nobel, The CARLAB, Bob Gritzinger, Wards Intelligence, and John McElroy, Autoline.tv
You can submit questions to [email protected] I've already sent mine.

Bob Wilson

ps. Would I trade-in my Model 3 for a Mach-E? Too early to tell. I remember the raptures over the iPace and etron only to be replaced by their mediocre realities. There are quality car reviewers but they are not named "Top Gear."


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## Needsdecaf (Dec 27, 2018)

GDN said:


> I just hit the web site for the first time. My first negative, why so many models? I know Tesla has screwed with the 3 a few times and hope it has settled out and they have enough information to know what variants of the Y to have, but 5 models of this one, with different options, just like all traditional mfrs, just way too many. I didn't do the math, but I bet you can get 100 variants not counting paint colors. 3 levels should cover it. When you get to the top range, just load it. Most everyone wants it that way or will give one way or the other.
> 
> I'll say it looks like most other small SUV's, but it's actually nice looking. Some very nice wheel options, great colors and if they don't make it in CA, likely some very good paint. Looks like they've integrated their almost standard LED color change interior lighting which is a nice touch and heated seats/steering wheel and automatic rear lift gate (how many have complained about that with Tesla) I'll have to go research their Co-Pilot Technology to see if it can ever hold a candle to Tesla, but overall a nice start.
> 
> ...


Great well thought out reply. I agree with much of what you say, but find myself disagreeing with your first point. Why too many variants? If Ford thinks they can be profitable making all those variants, why not give people the choice? The way I see it is that you have a maximum of pricing options so you're not pricing someone out of the market.

Totally agree with you on the charging. Wait until people find out that these 12,000 chargers are largely vaporware / useless. The Supercharger network, in the US anyway, is far superior. Between VAG and Ford and other brands starting to come online, people will very quickly find out. EA and these other groups are going to have to move fast.

With regard to your last point on traditional dealerships, they will come around when they realize that it's this path or death. The industry IS moving in this direction. I'm not affiliated with any automaker but I have friends who are in fairly high levels of several brands within the US and I study the industry as a whole. Not sure why, it sure doesn't get me anywhere in life, but I guess it's my hobby. The automakers are in on EV's now. The problem is that they don't know what they don't know yet. There will be teething problems for sure, like with the charging, and also with consumer education. So don't expect them to be at Tesla's level overnight. But just as the giant behemoth gives many flaws, it also has some advantages in purchasing power, supplier agreements, etc. They will figure it out and the landscape will change. My son is about to turn 13 and by the time he graduates High School, the automotive landscape is going to look decidedly different.


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## Needsdecaf (Dec 27, 2018)

bwilson4web said:


> "Autoline After Hours" is doing a program on Thursday, November 21 @3:00 PM EST, with the Ford team:
> 
> Dave Pericak, Ford Engineering Director
> Chris Walter, Ford Exterior Design Manager
> ...


iPace and Etron are great vehicles in a road test. Luxury EV's with SUV ride height but sports sedan levels of handling and acceleration. What's not to love for a day around town?

But when you're on your own for charging, or you need to use all the range, you're totally SOL. Most people are not super aware of how EV's function in real life. Heck, I've been an EV fan since driving the i3 for a weekend 5 years ago and when I bought my Model 3 last year, I still didn't know a kWh from an amp. So it's no surprise that these vehicles score well in road tests, but when buyers learn the reality, they don't want to deal with them.

Compared to a traditional ICE car, owning an EV requires what a "normal" car-neutral person would consider work. Using A Better Route Planner to plan a trip is work to most people. Mapping your charging spots is work to most people. Figuring out how much range you lose in the cold is work to most people. They don't want to deal with that. They want to know their car can take them anywhere and they can refuel.

It's not work to us because we LIKE it. Otherwise, why would anyone download TeslaFi or Stats or hack the CANBUS to get data and have the Tesla datalogger? We enjoy this stuff, and therefore it is no skin off our nose to figure these things out. But we're the minority in the car buying world. Most people buy based on payment and can't even tell you when the dealer has rolled $10k of negative equity on their trade into said payment, or tell you the interest rate.


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## GDN (Oct 30, 2017)

Needsdecaf said:


> Great well thought out reply. I agree with much of what you say, but find myself disagreeing with your first point. Why too many variants? If Ford thinks they can be profitable making all those variants, why not give people the choice? The way I see it is that you have a maximum of pricing options so you're not pricing someone out of the market.
> 
> Totally agree with you on the charging. Wait until people find out that these 12,000 chargers are largely vaporware / useless. The Supercharger network, in the US anyway, is far superior. Between VAG and Ford and other brands starting to come online, people will very quickly find out. EA and these other groups are going to have to move fast.
> 
> With regard to your last point on traditional dealerships, they will come around when they realize that it's this path or death. The industry IS moving in this direction. I'm not affiliated with any automaker but I have friends who are in fairly high levels of several brands within the US and I study the industry as a whole. Not sure why, it sure doesn't get me anywhere in life, but I guess it's my hobby. The automakers are in on EV's now. The problem is that they don't know what they don't know yet. There will be teething problems for sure, like with the charging, and also with consumer education. So don't expect them to be at Tesla's level overnight. But just as the giant behemoth gives many flaws, it also has some advantages in purchasing power, supplier agreements, etc. They will figure it out and the landscape will change. My son is about to turn 13 and by the time he graduates High School, the automotive landscape is going to look decidedly different.


My comment about too many variants isn't really just about this car, it's all of them in general. It's just a nit I like to focus on I guess. 100 variations complicates the assembly line and drives cost up and the complicates the sales process, at least for the buyer. You start to compare 5 cars that are basically the same, but vary by a $10 option.

I also think reality is most people break down in to just a few categories. You're looking for stripped down version of a car, one with a few amenities, or if you want most options, you likely want them all. I just think this is another one of the things Tesla does well on.


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## Needsdecaf (Dec 27, 2018)

GDN said:


> My comment about too many variants isn't really just about this car, it's all of them in general. It's just a nit I like to focus on I guess. 100 variations complicates the assembly line and drives cost up and the complicates the sales process, at least for the buyer. You start to compare 5 cars that are basically the same, but vary by a $10 option.
> 
> I also think reality is most people break down in to just a few categories. You're looking for stripped down version of a car, one with a few amenities, or if you want most options, you likely want them all. I just think this is another one of the things Tesla does well on.


Fair enough. I see it from both sides of the coin. I've purchased a Tesla new, which has by far the fewest options available on any car for sale, I would think. And I've purchased a Porsche new which has a truly dizzying array of options available (seriously, go configure a 911 and look. It's ridiculous). I think that people who buy EV's, at least now, are pretty into their cars. And people who are into their cars tend to want to personalize the options. I was disappointed with the lack of customization on a Model 3 but I realize Tesla can't afford to do that and I like my color combo so I let it go. And I wouldn't be the guy ordering his 911 with leather air vent slats, interior trim painted body color, and colored gauge faces (all real options). I think for EV's to gain wide acceptance it's better off to have the option for people to customize their order since the early adopters will be those who are fairly into cars. But I also recognize that not everyone cares and many who would just want a cheaper car that results from fewer options. It's a pretty wide spectrum and as a manufacturer, you've got to pick your strategy and stick with it.


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## garsh (Apr 4, 2016)

Needsdecaf said:


> Compared to a traditional ICE car, owning an EV requires what a "normal" car-neutral person would consider work. Using A Better Route Planner to plan a trip is work to most people. Mapping your charging spots is work to most people. Figuring out how much range you lose in the cold is work to most people. They don't want to deal with that. They want to know their car can take them anywhere and they can refuel.


Just to continue that thought, a Tesla can still be appropriate for people like that who don't want to work. As long as they put a destination into the Nav, the car will tell them exactly where to go, and how long to charge. No additional thinking required. 

Of course, those of us who do stupid things, like trying to arrive at superchargers at 0% battery in order to maximize charging speeds, are going to do our own trip planning.


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## SR22pilot (Aug 16, 2018)

Here is what I liked about the Mach E. 

I like the drain in the frunk so you can easily clean it out and put ice in it. 

I like the power lift gate. 

I like that you can pair two phones at the same time. 

I really like that it isn't a compliance car. The range is decent and it has good performance. The screen doesn't totally embrace the iPhone nature of the Model 3 but it is closer than others. 

All in all I think it is a nice effort and good for the EV world. I feel the same way about the Taycan. Porsche could have made it a lower end car but instead put it near the top of their product line. It shows that Porsche see the future as electric. I feel the same way about the Mach E. Neither of these may be what I want but that doesn't matter. Both the Mach E and the Taycan will change perceptions.


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## Scrannel (Oct 2, 2019)

Think it was Tesla that changed perceptions. Vastly. The Model 3 is THE car at the moment, especially noticeable in car-crazy So. Ca. Most of the current heap of EVs are over thought and under imagined. They are, just, ye olde cars... with a battery. In other words, somewhat boring.


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## B.Silva (Sep 30, 2018)

While I understand it offends the (remaining) Mustang faithful, I think it was a brilliant attention grabbing move to call the car a Mustang. It has everyone talking about it. Would we be talking so much if it was a Ford Escape EV?

It's a car that's worthy enough of our attention. I hope Ford gets it right -- unlike the e-tron and i-Pace. I am impressed they have OTA updates. Did they say if they'll be free or will there be a subscription required? 

As others have said, I believe competition is good. The Model 3 is clearly the target car for the entire industry now. Or rather, the Model 3 made into a form factor with a much bigger market than 4 door sedan, that is, a medium sized crossover. The Model Y can't come soon enough.


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## Silvermagic3 (Dec 18, 2017)

I've owned several Fords over the years and my wife currently has a C-Max, and their software has always been the worst part of the cars. 
MyFordMobile is supposedly the equivalent to the Tesla app for the C-Max (and any of their other "connected" cars) and none of the functions work more then 20% of the time, from the auto start to the charging schedule. You actually can't schedule when the car charges from the app, you can only schedule when you plan on leaving and it figures out when to start charging, except it doesn't, it just starts charging immediately or some random time and doesn't give you a full charge (I've spent hours trying to figure it out!). The other app Ford has is the FordConnect (which is what they are going to be using for the Mach-E) and really that just shows you where there are nearby charging points, but its badly outdated, so we just use Plugshare. There's also the FordConnect website, this is a little more useful and you can schedule charging on it, but is VERY buggy. We have to re-setup our charging schedule or add our car back into the profile every couple weeks. Seems like it just randomly loses info or you change one small thing and it removes your car from the profile. It got to the point that I just bought a smart plug and have the car plugged into that. The C-Max is suppose to be able to "updates" over the WiFi, but in 2 years there has only been 1 update and even though it said it completed successfully it bricked the car bad enough that we had to take it to the dealership...

So yeah, don't hold your breath on the OTA updates.

Hopefully they do a lot of work on the software in the next year because it sounds like it doesn't currently work. https://www.theverge.com/2019/11/18...ford-electric-sync-4-reveal-la-auto-show-2019


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## B.Silva (Sep 30, 2018)

Silvermagic3 said:


> I've owned several Fords over the years and my wife currently has a C-Max, and their software has always been the worst part of the cars.
> MyFordMobile is supposedly the equivalent to the Tesla app for the C-Max (and any of their other "connected" cars) and none of the functions work more then 20% of the time, from the auto start to the charging schedule. You actually can't schedule when the car charges from the app, you can only schedule when you plan on leaving and it figures out when to start charging, except it doesn't, it just starts charging immediately or some random time and doesn't give you a full charge (I've spent hours trying to figure it out!). The other app Ford has is the FordConnect (which is what they are going to be using for the Mach-E) and really that just shows you where there are nearby charging points, but its badly outdated, so we just use Plugshare. There's also the FordConnect website, this is a little more useful and you can schedule charging on it, but is VERY buggy. We have to re-setup our charging schedule or add our car back into the profile every couple weeks. Seems like it just randomly loses info or you change one small thing and it removes your car from the profile. It got to the point that I just bought a smart plug and have the car plugged into that. The C-Max is suppose to be able to "updates" over the WiFi, but in 2 years there has only been 1 update and even though it said it completed successfully it bricked the car bad enough that we had to take it to the dealership...
> 
> So yeah, don't hold your breath on the OTA updates.
> ...


This is perhaps Tesla's greatest competitive advantage and the legacy car companies' greatest weakness: software. The legacy companies have demonstrated over and over that they are terrible at software. Yet the paradigm for an EV is that it's largely software with greatly simplified mechanicals.


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## bwilson4web (Mar 4, 2019)

New information: http://www.autoline.tv/daily/?p=64764#more-64764

_FORD MUSTANG MACH-E DETAILS_​​_We've got more technical data on the Ford Mach-E. There are two battery sizes, with cells from LG, and they are liquid cooled and heated. A *75 kWh battery will deliver 220-230 miles* of driving range. A *98-kWh battery will deliver over 300 miles *of range. The base car will be rear wheel drive, with a 210-kW motor. Ford says it will be as fast as a Porsche Macan S. The all-wheel-drive version has an additional 50-kW motor mounted between the front wheels. The Mach-E GT will come with 459 horsepower and 612 pound-feet of torque and will go from 0 to 60 mph in about 3.5 seconds. Ford says it will will be as fast as a 911 GTS. _​​_The Mach-E can use *150-kW fast chargers that will deliver 47 miles of range in 10 minutes*. You can buy a 48-amp, 220-volt charger through Amazon, which will also arrange to have it installed in your home, though no price was announced. It will provide *32 miles of range for every hour of charging*. And by using the Ford Pass app on your phone, you can use almost any charging service, instead of having to open different accounts with each one._​
Gosh this is a disappointment:

(75 kWh / 230 mi) * 100 = 32.6 kWh/100 mi
(98 kWh / 300 mi) * 100 = 32.6 kWh/100 mi
"150 kW fast charger delivers 47 mi in 10 min" vs 80 mi in 10 minutes, SR+ Model 3
"32 miles of range for every hour of charging" (L2) vs 32 miles of range in SR+ Model 3
The reason for efficient EV cars is to reduce the amount of batteries and charge time required. But let's wait for the production Mach-E numbers.

*UPDATE*

I typically don't follow the upscale Model S/X:

40 kWh/100 mi - Model X P100D
35 kWh/100 mi - Model S P100D
29 kWh/100 mi - Model 3 Long Range AWD Performance
This suggests the Mach-E is aimed at the upscale Teslas versus the smaller, more efficient Model 3 that I prefer.

Bob Wilson


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## Quicksilver (Dec 29, 2016)

Silvermagic3 said:


> I've owned several Fords over the years and my wife currently has a C-Max, and their software has always been the worst part of the cars.
> MyFordMobile is supposedly the equivalent to the Tesla app for the C-Max (and any of their other "connected" cars) and none of the functions work more then 20% of the time, from the auto start to the charging schedule. You actually can't schedule when the car charges from the app, you can only schedule when you plan on leaving and it figures out when to start charging, except it doesn't, it just starts charging immediately or some random time and doesn't give you a full charge (I've spent hours trying to figure it out!). The other app Ford has is the FordConnect (which is what they are going to be using for the Mach-E) and really that just shows you where there are nearby charging points, but its badly outdated, so we just use Plugshare. There's also the FordConnect website, this is a little more useful and you can schedule charging on it, but is VERY buggy. We have to re-setup our charging schedule or add our car back into the profile every couple weeks. Seems like it just randomly loses info or you change one small thing and it removes your car from the profile. It got to the point that I just bought a smart plug and have the car plugged into that. The C-Max is suppose to be able to "updates" over the WiFi, but in 2 years there has only been 1 update and even though it said it completed successfully it bricked the car bad enough that we had to take it to the dealership...
> 
> So yeah, don't hold your breath on the OTA updates.
> ...


My wife also drives a C-Max and the software is super laggy and it drives her nuts. So yes, I can confirm that Ford, at least for Sync 3, doesn't do software well at all. Hope they do a better job with the Mach E.


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## Olds442 (Dec 12, 2018)

what it doesn't have, is a ford logo. and i agree that making it a mustang was a piss poor hail mary that is only backfiring.

should have called it the GALAX-E or G4L4X1E or something, anything but mustang. 

Mach - E Auto sounds like a drink, so maybe not that. 

seriously though, i like the drain on the frunk. that's cool.

how well will the batteries hold up over time? hopefully well, but that's where the big disadvantage to the legacy mfgs lies, battery tech. they're releasing a car, maybe, in a year or so, that will be 5-7 years behind. that's the issue they'll all have moving forward, they all started way too late and didn't put their backs into it. 

the door opening design will end up crushing someone's fingers, it's just a really bad decision not to have handles on the doors the kids will be using. where are the liability lawyers on that one? 

by the time it does hit market, the charging networks will look totally different than they do now. so that point is kinda moot right now. 

style wise, it's okay in my book. putting the model S nosecone on it is certainly an odd decision.


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## JWardell (May 9, 2016)

Doug Demuro's thoughts on the Mach E


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## Needsdecaf (Dec 27, 2018)

Olds442 said:


> what it doesn't have, is a ford logo. and i agree that making it a mustang was a piss poor hail mary that is only backfiring.
> 
> should have called it the GALAX-E or G4L4X1E or something, anything but mustang.
> .


If it wasn't called the Mustang, far fewer people would be talking about it. Ford got what they wanted.


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## MelindaV (Apr 2, 2016)

Olds442 said:


> what it doesn't have, is a ford logo.


maybe @JWardell was onto something with Ford splitting "Mustang" off into it's own stand-alone brand like Lincoln (and Mercury before it was killed).
so it would be the Mustang Mach-E, not the Ford Mustang Mach-E. Along with the Mustang GT, Mustang (Mustang?)


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## msjulie (Feb 6, 2018)

I'm glad another 'domestic' auto maker is behaving seriously about EVs (I hope they really are) though this CUV/SUV is the opposite of any vehicle I would want regardless of name. They do provide Apple Car Play and Android Auto which for a surprising # of folks matters... Tesla still has the best network if you want ease of road trips of any distance. I prefer my 3 by lightyears..


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## garsh (Apr 4, 2016)

msjulie said:


> ...though this CUV/SUV is the opposite of any vehicle I would want regardless of name.


I'm 100% in agreement, but we're not typical. CUV/SUV is the most popular segment in both North America and China. This should sell very well.


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## Olds442 (Dec 12, 2018)

MelindaV said:


> maybe @JWardell was onto something with Ford splitting "Mustang" off into it's own stand-alone brand like Lincoln (and Mercury before it was killed).
> so it would be the Mustang Mach-E, not the Ford Mustang Mach-E. Along with the Mustang GT, Mustang (Mustang?)


it seems they are, seeing as the only car that F sells in the US is the Mustang. they do plan on continuing the ICE-stang for the foreseeable future. all the SUV's and F series pickemups could stay F branded. 
as the younger generation grows, the stigma of the ford tourtoise remains, and they grew up in them. Ford likely wants to distance themselves from that, and lose the stigma. Mustangs are cool, but every other car F made was boring af. (except a few SHO offerings.)


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## Scrannel (Oct 2, 2019)

Just watched a Ford generated video "making of" the Mach E and this was directed at the good ole boys, burger and beer crowd. What's interesting about Tesla -- basically since they do not advertise -- is they make no demographic stand. Which is contrary to ageless (advertising) wisdom. The only Mustang I ever owned was a 1966 Shelby 350 GT and after that, all other Mustangs were painfully phony. The Mach E, therefore, is doubly phony. Not remotely interested. Maybe an... EV Edsel?


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## Needsdecaf (Dec 27, 2018)

What's in a name? Would any of you, if remotely interested in this segment, let the name deter you from buying it? Let's look at how they stack up. 

Styling - beats the Model Y to my eye. Winner Ford, by a good margin. 

EV attributes - the closest competitor to Tesla so far. Winner Tesla, but not as wide of a margin as ETron, iPace, etc. 

Charging network - Supercharger is going to win this for a long time. But I've put 26k miles on my Model 3 in under a year, and I've only supercharged a handful of times. And on those trips, I had an ICE car I could have taken. So DC fast charging is not a huge deal breaker if it's not your only car and you don't road trip. So winner, Tesla, but only a deal breaker for some. 

Driving dynamics - remains to be seen. The GT will have magride suspension and Ford reportedly made the Shelby 500 put down 750 hp through just the rear wheels reliably. I'm going to call this one a likely Ford win but no idea yet. 

Dealership support - Way, way more Ford dealers, but a new product to deal with. Still, Tesla seems somewhat inept about servicing based on my experience and stories I hear. Mobile service beats going to a dealer, though. So maybe a tie? 

Name recognition - everybody knows Ford. Everyone knows Tesla for EV's. Will anyone want to cross over to a mainstream brand? Plenty of people bought Bolts and Leaf's so I'll guess yes. No EV snob appeal from a Ford though. Tie. 

Pricing: very competitive, and Ford has the full EV credit. Plus it's more configurable. Slight win to Ford here. 

OTA updates - Ford has promised but no history of WHAT will come on the OTA updates. Win to Tesla. 

Self-driving - Ford uses a driver monitor like GM supercruise for TRUE hands free driving. Supposedly limited areas, need more information here. Not pursuing FSD, but to me that's no deal breaker. I say slight edge to Tesla. 

Company Stability - Percieved or real, Ford is seen as a more stable company. Tesla has had few profitable quarters and shorts like to constantly remind people that Tesla should have been out of business 2 years ago. Personally I think that Tesla will be fine, but some people are not so daring and believe the FUD. Win to Ford. 

If I were in the market for a Model Y, I'd be looking at the E-Stang in a big way. If you had to DC fast charge a lot, I can see that the Supercharger network would be a huge advantage. But other than that, I can't see why these two wouldn't be cross-shopped.


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## Mike (Apr 4, 2016)

Not to situate the estimate, but one of the talking heads in this video will cause you to grind your teeth......and I'll let you judge which one


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## Curt Renz (May 22, 2017)

EVBite - Yesterday:

_With the Ford Mustang Mach E around the corner and praise being sent towards Ford for their "commitment" to electric vehicles, we thought it would be best to get some first hand experience with their front line. _


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## GDN (Oct 30, 2017)

Ford is just confusing as hell, they make no sense. I literally just read on Yahoo, that all reservations for the first year of the upper end model of the Mach-E are reserved at $500 each. Then I see that total production is limited to 50K units the first year. I don't know how many of 50K are the upper end model. No idea if that is a factory constraint, battery constraint, don't know what they are doing constraint for 50K total units. To say the least just now watching the Orange Bowl - there is Ford advertising their Mach-E. 

Why are you spending money advertising something that is likely close to "sold out" - only the top model confirmed right now, but you are likely going to get them all reserved. Why not spend the money on increasing your capacity and be serious about producing a viable electric car. If it is worth it, they will come and they will buy. They are also worried about what their dealers are going to do about selling at full MSRP or deal on them. They've issued pleas/warnings to only sell at MSRP. If they sell well, they will, if not well then the dealers will have to start dealing on the price to keep them moving. This is really more about manipulation and control vs creating a good EV and selling it.


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## garsh (Apr 4, 2016)

GDN said:


> They are also worried about what their dealers are going to do about selling at full MSRP or deal on them. They've issued pleas/warnings to only sell at MSRP. If they sell well, they will, if not well then the dealers will have to start dealing on the price to keep them moving.


I think you are misunderstanding. They're not worried about dealers selling the cars at a discount. They're worried about dealers charging HUGE markups above MSRP.


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## Needsdecaf (Dec 27, 2018)

garsh said:


> I think you are misunderstanding. They're not worried about dealers selling the cars at a discount. They're worried about dealers charging HUGE markups above MSRP.


Yup.

Welcome to the world of ADM....Additional Dealer Markup.


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## bwilson4web (Mar 4, 2019)

garsh said:


> I think you are misunderstanding. They're not worried about dealers selling the cars at a discount. They're worried about dealers charging HUGE markups above MSRP.


We saw that with the Prius in 2005. I was on a waiting list for a Prius and the local dealer left a message on my work phone, "We have a Prius coming in. The first one with $2,000 gets it."

I looked at the phone like 'Who do you think I am to make that threat?' About five months later, I replaced our 'totaled' Camry with a used, 2003 Prius, and never looked back . . . or bought another car from that dealer. Other Toyota dealers but not the local one. But there is a wild-card.

Southeastern Region Toyota has banned the Prius Prime from their region. You have to go out of their region to find a Toyota dealer with one. It is possible (probable?) that the local Ford dealers will un-sell the Mach-E. We'll know if the unsold inventory exceeds 60 days in a year or so.

Bob Wilson


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## DanSz (Feb 1, 2019)

Interesting situation with the Prius. I guess I never realized how the entire system can literally sabotage a vehicle launch. Customer demand is one thing. Dealer reaction can kill a vehicle just because they KNOW it will not be bringing them future service.

I wonder if it is possible to become an EV-only dealer for an automaker? I wonder if it is possible to sell cars with no service department?


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## Needsdecaf (Dec 27, 2018)

DanSz said:


> Interesting situation with the Prius. I guess I never realized how the entire system can literally sabotage a vehicle launch. Customer demand is one thing. Dealer reaction can kill a vehicle just because they KNOW it will not be bringing them future service.
> 
> I wonder if it is possible to become an EV-only dealer for an automaker? I wonder if it is possible to sell cars with no service department?


EV's certainly need servicing. Just look at our cars! What they don't need is the money maker, routine maintenance.


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## DanSz (Feb 1, 2019)

Needsdecaf said:


> EV's certainly need servicing. Just look at our cars! What they don't need is the money maker, routine maintenance.


I know that and you know that. It was more of an extreme concept since the statement that dealers NEED service to be profitable seems ridiculous.


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## SalisburySam (Jun 6, 2018)

Love the heated steering wheel in the Mach-E. Wish my 3 had one.


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## Eliminason (Sep 25, 2017)

SalisburySam said:


> Love the heated steering wheel in the Mach-E. Wish my 3 had one.


My Model 3 just got one (software update yesterday):


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## GDN (Oct 30, 2017)

The official order guide for the Mach E is out. https://insideevs.com/news/430262/ford-mustang-mach-e-official-order-guide/

Looks like Tesla is doomed, the Mach E, comes with grab handles, front and back!

In seriousness all the gory details are out. Truly has the possibility of being a good car. I just don't get the traditional manufactures though. So many options to nickel and dime with. Give us 2, maybe 3 models, make the stuff standard and simplify. This has been a horrible strategy of almost all manufacturers for years. I love how Tesla simplified this.


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## iChris93 (Feb 3, 2017)

GDN said:


> I just don't get the traditional manufactures though. So many options to nickel and dime with. Give us 2, maybe 3 models, make the stuff standard and simplify. This has been a horrible strategy of almost all manufacturers for years. I love how Tesla simplified this.


I agree, except when Tesla takes away features that I would pay for, e.g. auto-tinting side mirrors.


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## GDN (Oct 30, 2017)

iChris93 said:


> I agree, except when Tesla takes away features that I would pay for, e.g. auto-tinting side mirrors.


I agree on that - at least you can add them for a price with all of the options. I don't like when Tesla does this, but this is why competition is good. Tesla may be forced, or we hope they are, to get some of the little things back in or added to to the 3 and Y to keep them competitive. Good mirrors, heated steering wheel, etc.


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## garsh (Apr 4, 2016)

GDN said:


> So many options to nickel and dime with. Give us 2, maybe 3 models, make the stuff standard and simplify. This has been a horrible strategy of almost all manufacturers for years. I love how Tesla simplified this.


I remember when I bought my Honda Minivan, I wanted a few upgrades, like a power tailgate and a better "trip computer". But in order to get those, I had to upgrade to a package that included leather seating and a sunroof, both of which I emphatically did NOT want, at an almost 5-figure increase in cost. So sometimes it's nice to have individual options available for purchase separately.


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## Needsdecaf (Dec 27, 2018)

GDN said:


> In seriousness all the gory details are out. Truly has the possibility of being a good car. I just don't get the traditional manufactures though. So many options to nickel and dime with. Give us 2, maybe 3 models, make the stuff standard and simplify. This has been a horrible strategy of almost all manufacturers for years. I love how Tesla simplified this.


You do pay more to have things a-la-carte. But having ordered an ultimate example of this strategy (Porsche) it's hard to go to the Tesla model.

Just personal opinion.


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## msjulie (Feb 6, 2018)

Saw today some dealers adding markup of up to $15k - can you say "don't want to deal with EVs"!

Or

We think this EV will be hot


I wonder what the truth is...


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## GDN (Oct 30, 2017)

msjulie said:


> Saw today some dealers adding markup of up to $15k - can you say "don't want to deal with EVs"!
> 
> Or
> 
> ...


I've not followed their process that closely, but will say that traditional dealers have done things like that in the past for new releases. However I thought the MachE was similar to Tesla. The future owners are in line with a reservation. They will get to configure their car on line and order and it would show up at a dealer with the MSRP. Are you saying they get to order and configure and then they show up to negotiate a price and maybe pay over MSRP? Or are they only able to order through a dealer, who can add his mark up and if the customer doesn't like that tactic, they just walk?


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## shareef777 (Mar 10, 2019)

msjulie said:


> Saw today some dealers adding markup of up to $15k - can you say "don't want to deal with EVs"!
> 
> Or
> 
> ...


Almost guaranteed to be because of expected demand. This thing will sell. Ford did right by going with the Mustang name. There's a cult like following with Mustangs, Camaros and Corvettes. American muscle and all that. The new C8 Vette is currently marked up by a lot more and that car has been out for a few months now. Supply and demand.


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## msjulie (Feb 6, 2018)

shareef777 said:


> Almost guaranteed to be because of expected demand. This thing will sell. Ford did right by going with the Mustang name. There's a cult like following with Mustangs, Camaros and Corvettes. American muscle and all that. The new C8 Vette is currently marked up by a lot more and that car has been out for a few months now. Supply and demand.


I hope that is true (though I think they kinda suck doing it  )


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## garsh (Apr 4, 2016)

The EPA confirms the 2021 Mustang Mach-E can run up to 300 miles


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## JWardell (May 9, 2016)

garsh said:


> The EPA confirms the 2021 Mustang Mach-E can run up to 300 miles


Glad they (barely) made it.
I really would love to see more realistic range of all EVs, 90 to 10% charge at 75mph. I think you would see some stark differences from EPA ratings


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## garsh (Apr 4, 2016)

JWardell said:


> I really would love to see more realistic range of all EVs, 90 to 10% charge at 75mph.


Agreed. A simple "range vs speed" chart would be a lot more useful than the EPA rating.


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## Needsdecaf (Dec 27, 2018)

garsh said:


> Agreed. A simple "range vs speed" chart would be a lot more useful than the EPA rating.


Moreover, it would eliminate the ways various manufacturers game the system.

The EPA consumption tests are an open book test, and run to a VERY specific set of instructions. It's very common to have an automaker design a car to meet those standards, yet fail miserably to meet them in real world driving. The test means little now, other than an order of magnitude indication.


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## Mike (Apr 4, 2016)

JWardell said:


> Glad they (barely) made it.
> I really would love to see more realistic range of all EVs, 90 to 10% charge at 75mph. I think you would see some stark differences from EPA ratings


I'd also like to see two temperature regimens as well, 20c and -5c.


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## Klaus-rf (Mar 6, 2019)

Needsdecaf said:


> Moreover, it would eliminate the ways various manufacturers game the system.
> 
> The EPA consumption tests are an open book test, and run to a VERY specific set of instructions. It's very common to have an automaker design a car to meet those standards, yet fail miserably to meet them in real world driving. The test means little now, other than an order of magnitude indication.


 Exactly the same for ICE vehicles - has been tis way for 45 years or so. It's a standard test that is t he same decade to decade. Imagine how many Olympic gold medalists would not have won if the 100 meter dash was increased to 125 meters?

As we're used to seeing (although the font gets smaller each year) "YMMV". At least with EVs, the type/grade of fuel has absolutely no impact on consumption.


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## Needsdecaf (Dec 27, 2018)

Klaus-rf said:


> Exactly the same for ICE vehicles - has been tis way for 45 years or so. It's a standard test that is t he same decade to decade. Imagine how many Olympic gold medalists would not have won if the 100 meter dash was increased to 125 meters?
> 
> As we're used to seeing (although the font gets smaller each year) "YMMV". At least with EVs, the type/grade of fuel has absolutely no impact on consumption.


Yes, exactly the same for ICE vehicles. But you're missing the point. The point is that the standardized test which in years past gave a decent estimation of how your car would do on the highway, in the city, and in mixed driving now is nowhere near actual consumption.

In the old days, cars were less sophisticated. This test replicated somewhat how the cars would do in real world conditions since the car really couldn't precisely control fuel / air in discrete points. Now it can. The EPA tests are very rigid. Accelerate from X speed to Y speed over Z seconds. Hold at that speed for Z+20 seconds. Accelerate to a higher speed over so many seconds. Hold there. Decrease speed. Whatever, you get the point. You're trying to replicate a speed / time graph as exactly as you can. So the car is tuned to do as well as an automaker can make it perform under that VERY specific set of parameters. The transmission is told which gear to shift into and at what RPM to keep revs as absolutely low as possible. Boost on any turbo is limited or eliminated. Timing is ******** to the absolute max that can be before knock. Etc, etc.

This is how VAG was able to cheat the car on the diesel emissions tests. The ECU had code written into it's control software so that when it detected it was in a test loop, it would turn on all the emissions gear full bore, to reduce emissions. Only problem was that didn't meet performance goals. So unless the car was in "test loop" mode, the emissions controls were dialed back. Result, car pollutes more, but performs more in real world. On test, emissions are better. And the test doesn't measure performance, so no one knew.

If you're not driving in that sequence (and nobody does) the car is going to do well as it can do but it's not optimized for it. If you want more powerful acceleration, you're going to get a lot more boost, using more fuel for cooling, etc. It's no longer YMMV. It's YM WILL Vary. A LOT.

With the EPA test, we aren't even using the same test! You can take the shortcut, which requires less testing, but then you use 70% of the result. You're likely to do better in the real world. Or, you could do the 5 way test and get more accurate results, but for those parameters only. Real world, you're likely to get LESS range. This is why we see Teslas struggle to get their EPA range, especially in all highway. Whereas with a Taycan, you can easily trounce the EPA rating by up to 35%.


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## Klaus-rf (Mar 6, 2019)

Needsdecaf said:


> Yes, exactly the same for ICE vehicles. But you're missing the point. The point is that the standardized test which in years past gave a decent estimation of how your car would do on the highway, in the city, and in mixed driving now is nowhere near actual consumption.
> 
> In the old days, cars were less sophisticated. This test replicated somewhat how the cars would do in real world conditions since the car really couldn't precisely control fuel / air in discrete points. Now it can. The EPA tests are very rigid. Accelerate from X speed to Y speed over Z seconds. Hold at that speed for Z+20 seconds. Accelerate to a higher speed over so many seconds. Hold there. Decrease speed. Whatever, you get the point. You're trying to replicate a speed / time graph as exactly as you can. So the car is tuned to do as well as an automaker can make it perform under that VERY specific set of parameters. The transmission is told which gear to shift into and at what RPM to keep revs as absolutely low as possible. Boost on any turbo is limited or eliminated. Timing is ******** to the absolute max that can be before knock. Etc, etc.
> 
> ...


I am quite familiar with the testing procedure having worked for 15 years in the automotive emissions system design and testing field. The CVS/FTP was initilly designed to test tailpipe and evap emissions and a useful byproduct of that testing was fuel consumption. I have personally run more than 300 chassis dyno CVS/FTP/Shed tests. The tests have been modified over the decades and are a bit closer to real world, but no one expects to get 54 MPG around town .It's impossible to rate every driving condition and two are extremely representative or reality.

IMHO the distance rating for EVs is all wrong. NOBODY drives until they run out of power (or fuel) so why would an EV be rated (or extrapolated) to zero power to determine range? Petrol vehicles are rated in unit of fuel (liquid power) versus distance under two different (tested) usage patterns known as "city" and "highway". EVs should also be rated the same - whatever unit of power consumption per distance unit, such as Kwh/mile or miles per Kwh (for US markets) or Kwh/km for ROW. Then the mfgr could specify usable battery storage capacity to determine total distance.

In liquid fuel vehicles the MPG is the consumption rating and the customer gets to calculate the fuel cell size to get to max distance (and all mfgrs specify fuel cell total capacity, but not the total usable volume - which changes depending on uphill, side-leaning, etc.).EVs need to specify the total battery capacity and the amount of that that's usable.

Again, no one ever drives to empty (I suppose someone could carry a one gallon petrol can and drive to empty, then pour in the gallon and desperately search for a fueling station - but I would call that person's sanity into question - so it's not likely on a regular basis; but it could happen).

It's a bit more difficult currently to have a spare backup battery (or generator and fuel supply) in an EV another for 40 or so miles past empty with current tech.


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## garsh (Apr 4, 2016)

Klaus-rf said:


> Petrol vehicles are rated in unit of fuel (liquid power) versus distance under two different (tested) usage patterns known as "city" and "highway". EVs should also be rated the same - whatever unit of power consumption per distance unit, such as Kwh/mile


Then the Nissan Leaf would have been the best EV from 2012 until the Hyundai Ioniq came out.

That metric will make sense someday, when all EVs have 300-mile minimum range, and have fast-chargers available every 20 miles or so. But not today. Today, range is the most important metric for an EV.

That's one change from the standard combustion testing procedure that the EPA got right.


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## Needsdecaf (Dec 27, 2018)

Klaus-rf said:


> I am quite familiar with the testing procedure having worked for 15 years in the automotive emissions system design and testing field. The CVS/FTP was initilly designed to test tailpipe and evap emissions and a useful byproduct of that testing was fuel consumption. I have personally run more than 300 chassis dyno CVS/FTP/Shed tests. The tests have been modified over the decades and are a bit closer to real world, but no one expects to get 54 MPG around town .It's impossible to rate every driving condition and two are extremely representative or reality.
> 
> IMHO the distance rating for EVs is all wrong. NOBODY drives until they run out of power (or fuel) so why would an EV be rated (or extrapolated) to zero power to determine range? Petrol vehicles are rated in unit of fuel (liquid power) versus distance under two different (tested) usage patterns known as "city" and "highway". EVs should also be rated the same - whatever unit of power consumption per distance unit, such as Kwh/mile or miles per Kwh (for US markets) or Kwh/km for ROW. Then the mfgr could specify usable battery storage capacity to determine total distance.
> 
> ...


Haha, good, you understand this way better than I do then!

I think we're both saying the same thing in slightly different ways. I agree with you, the EV distance rating is pretty atypical of normal driving. Just like the "gain 100 miles of charge in 10 minutes" claim by EV makers is complete bollocks as that's figuring a charge rate that likely can only be sustained for 10 minutes, and only if you arrive with your battery warm and in a certain percentage range.

And I think that the ICE test needs to be re-thought. It's honestly ruining the drivability of the cars. The majority of cars now have a 1.4, 1.6, or 2.0 liter turbo 4. Many of them are programmed so badly for everyday driving that they are achingly annoying to drive. I understand the situation of MPG targets and penalties well enough to understand the why. But the whole system seems broken to me.


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## Needsdecaf (Dec 27, 2018)

This car looks really well done, IMO. To me, a perfect blend of old ICE thoughts with modern EV touches. I am excited to see one in person that I can touch and drive. Saw one at the auto show early this year and in person it looks really striking. WAY better looking than a Y, IMO.

We shall see how well it drives and does range wise, though. For the battery size seems a bit thirsty.


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## iChris93 (Feb 3, 2017)

Needsdecaf said:


> I am excited to see one in person that I can touch and drive. Saw one at the auto show early this year and in person it looks really striking. WAY better looking than a Y, IMO.


Since I'm not too far from Detroit, I do see them here and there but only while on the roads. I would also like to touch and drive one if possible.


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## Needsdecaf (Dec 27, 2018)

Friend of mine did an early "non-driving" review video.


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## GDN (Oct 30, 2017)

When do true deliveries start? We need to welcome them and the competition, but then we need to head on over to the drag racing thread to see that they are put in and kept in their spot, which is our rear view mirror.


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## Needsdecaf (Dec 27, 2018)

GDN said:


> When do true deliveries start? We need to welcome them and the competition, but then we need to head on over to the drag racing thread to see that they are put in and kept in their spot, which is our rear view mirror.


They are supposed to be this month.

LOL, I don't think it will be as much of a beat down as you think, if you compare them to a Model Y. We shall see.

in any event, review embargo ended today. I know what I'm doing at lunch!


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## Needsdecaf (Dec 27, 2018)

So far I've read a few reviews from the buff book websites (predicably poor reviews) and watched the Alex on Autos and Inside EV's part 2 driving impressions. Here are my major takeaways. 

1. One pedal driving appears to be excellent. 

2. When one pedal driving off, it goes to more of a mainstream system of blended braking on the pedal and ICE-like level of regen on the go-pedal liftoff. Reviews on the blended braking are somewhat mixed so far. 

3. Ride quality is somewhat comparable to the model Y, but a little more refined. I take that to mean less of the "jiggliness" that I experience in my Model 3. 

4. Co-Pilot 360 is as good, if not better, than TACC / AS. Why better? Because disengaging the system (say in making a manouver) requires less effort. And when you change lanes without canceling the system, it automatically re-engages. Very smart. Also, it has the hardware for visual driver monitoring (IR facial tracker) and in the near future (supposedly) Ford is going to enable this via an OTA so no hands on wheel required. System also changes speed as it reads the signs, like Tesla, and appears to be pretty smooth at holding the lane and speeding up / slowing down. 

5. Consumption - Alex said he saw a low of 2.9 miles / kWh and a high of 3.9 with an average of 3.8 (I think) over 85 miles of mostly off-highway driving. The Inside EV's gentlemen said at a constant 70 MPH, in the rain, 45 degrees, he saw 2.1 miles / kWh. 476 Wh / mile which is a bit high. Very unscientific so far. Alex's test was on the malibu hills in 80 degree weather. So he got between 256 and 344 Wh/mile. 

6. Range appears to be conservative. This model (Premium AWD Extended Battery) is rated at 270 miles. The pack is 95 kWh and has a usable 88 kWh. Even at Alex's low consumption, that's 255 miles. At his high estimate, that's 343.  And at 70 MPH constant in the rain and 45 degrees, it's still 184 REAL WORLD miles. Not bad, I say, even if not as efficient as Tesla. 

7. The controls / layout seem to strike a good blend (for all but the most die-hard Tesla fans) of touch and physical controls. 

8. Steering still quick, but not as quick of a rack as the 3 / Y. 

All in all, I really like this thing. Here's how I stack it up. 

Where Tesla is better:

1. Supercharger network
2. Super robust OTA support. 
3. Efficency! 
4. Cool touches (arcade, YouTube viewer). 
5. Useful tech (GPS mirror fold and garage door, dumb summon, etc.)
6. FSD could one day actually work. 
7. Performance is slightly better (vs. a Y). 
8. Dealer-less buying experience. 

Where Ford is better:

1. Better real-world range
2. Co-Pilot 360 smoother than AP / TACC
3. Android Auto / ACP avaialble. 
4. More customization / personalization avaialble (colors and wheels) PLUS more available battery / drive configurations to fit your budget. 
5. Interior is more mainstream friendly - still retains some physical controls and the small driver's gauge cluster comes close to replicating the S/X experience which to me is better than the 3/Y. But still seems to have a low scuttle for good visibility. 
6. Styling is more universally acceptable. In my mind, it's more attractive than a 3 or Y but I realize that's subjective. 
7. Has a full one-pedal driving AND a fully ICE-like drive mode for those who want that kind of thing. 
8. More robust dealer network for servicing. 

All in all, I think that this is the most credible competitor (I won't use the stupid "Tesla-Killer" clickbait as there is no such thing) to the Y and 3 yet. If you're willing to put up with EA for your fast charging needs (or don't need to fast charge), this makes a lot of sense for people wanting an EV. 

It's funny, Tesla took EV's and made them fast and cool. Now Ford is trying to make a better Tesla, not just a better EV. In some ways they have suceeded, but Tesla still holds the lead. Both the goal and the result are a huge kudos to Tesla. IMO, there are still many compelling reasons to choose the Tesla. But if you want a premium EV that's still quick (ahem E-Tron), has good range (E-Tron fails again) and doesn't break the bank (E-Tron 0-3) but ISN"T a Tesla, you finally have it. And I know many people DON"T want a Tesla, "because Elon", "because service" and of course, that stupid panel gaps argument. Which is crap. 

I'm glad this is here and could honestly say I'm looking forward to driving the GT version.


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## garsh (Apr 4, 2016)

Needsdecaf said:


>


I finally got around to watching Doug's review.

I really like how Ford handled the exterior door handles - there aren't any.
Instead, you press a button to pop the door out, then you can pull it open the rest of the way by just grabbing the door edge.
This is genius, and I'm a little surprised that Elon didn't come up with this idea - it would have been great to get rid of door handles altogether, including all the issues with them icing over.

The frunk access sounds like a complete disaster though - no way to open it from the front, from the app, or from the center console screen. What were they thinking?

This sounds like it could be great competition for the Model Y but for one thing - the supercharger network. Tesla's network is well thought-out as far as locations, has many more locations, and includes more charging stalls at each location. These other high-speed charging networks often only have 1 or 2 chargers at a location, or 4 in the case of Electrify America. That's going to make long-distance travel more of an issue when charging stations break, or during holiday travel when they're overloaded with users. But if they can get that sorted out, then it sounds like this could actually be the first EV that makes sense to cross-shop with a Tesla.


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## Nom (Oct 30, 2018)

Excited to hear of the strong first impressions. Now, the trick is to roll out the cars in volume and not have big issues with software or hardware. Not a small feat. Would expect an established car company would have the QA in process to mitigate concerns. But it sounds like VW had software issues. This type of car is a new beast. Will be very curious to see how this unfolds.


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## pjfw8 (Apr 28, 2016)

Nom said:


> Excited to hear of the strong first impressions. Now, the trick is to roll out the cars in volume and not have big issues with software or hardware. Not a small feat. Would expect an established car company would have the QA in process to mitigate concerns. But it sounds like VW had software issues. This type of car is a new beast. Will be very curious to see how this unfolds.


Ford will be extremely careful. They had a major PR disaster with the flawed roll out of the current Explorer. The 2021 F150 roll out is deliberately slow as a result. Thousands of F150 are held on storage lots pending minor corrections. I am confident they will get this launch right.


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## Needsdecaf (Dec 27, 2018)

garsh said:


> I finally got around to watching Doug's review.
> 
> I really like how Ford handled the exterior door handles - there aren't any.
> Instead, you press a button to pop the door out, then you can pull it open the rest of the way by just grabbing the door edge.
> ...


I have read in several reviews that remote / screen frunk access being added via OTA. Not sure reason, I'm sure it's some crazy regulation.


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## Gordon87 (Mar 5, 2019)

Charging, initially, seems likely to be its downfall, unless Ford quickly figures it out.

See these two reviews:

https://www.autoblog.com/2020/12/24/2021-ford-mustang-mach-e-chargepoint-electrify-america/

https://www.wired.com/story/mustang-mach-e-delivers-jolt-if-find-charge/


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## Needsdecaf (Dec 27, 2018)

Gordon87 said:


> Charging, initially, seems likely to be its downfall, unless Ford quickly figures it out.
> 
> See these two reviews:
> 
> ...


my buddy who is a Tesla owner (multiple) and has a Taycan now has had similar patchy results at EA charging stations.


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## serpico007 (Mar 1, 2020)

I came here thinking you were all taking about the commercial. Haha.


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## JWardell (May 9, 2016)

serpico007 said:


> I came here thinking you were all taking about the commercial. Haha.


So many missed joke opportunities there!


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## garsh (Apr 4, 2016)

JWardell said:


> So many missed joke opportunities there!


Like, "Why does a Ford commercial contain a Chevy?"


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## Klaus-rf (Mar 6, 2019)

"...back when cars made sounds."


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## littlD (Apr 17, 2016)

Needsdecaf said:


> my buddy who is a Tesla owner (multiple) and has a Taycan now has had similar patchy results at EA charging stations.


EA has never solved their reliability issues because they have no less than four different manufacturers who built the charging stations (yikes).
https://insideevs.com/news/389891/exclusive-interview-electrify-america-problems-solutions/

Gotta hand it to them though. They could have settled for 50 kW chargers to satisfy the court (DieselGate) but they wanted to leapfrog Tesla (at that time V2 150 kW).

Sadly, even though the Mach-E takes advantage of the new ISO standard for plug and charge, until they can reliably provide high charging rates, it's a total non-starter.

And that really ISN'T Ford's fault.

Also, I doubt that most of the automotive journalists (other than Kyle Connor of Out of Spec Studios fame) understand when the conditions are right for a charging station to charge at 150 kW or higher.


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## Needsdecaf (Dec 27, 2018)

littlD said:


> EA has never solved their reliability issues because they have no less than four different manufacturers who built the charging stations (yikes).
> https://insideevs.com/news/389891/exclusive-interview-electrify-america-problems-solutions/
> 
> Gotta hand it to them though. They could have settled for 50 kW chargers to satisfy the court (DieselGate) but they wanted to leapfrog Tesla (at that time V2 150 kW).
> ...


Some do, some don't. But for sure adding 1 mile / minute is pretty slow.


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## NickJonesS71 (May 11, 2020)

Reviews looking really good so far. Tesla needed some competition. I'm really digging these a lot.

But man the new GV70 is at the top of my list now after driving the GV80 last week


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## littlD (Apr 17, 2016)

I'll be checking with local Ford dealers for a test drive now that deliveries are starting.

Mind you, my garage is full of Teslas. I won't be buying anything else (love roadtrips and 2021 will be filled with them!)

Yet, it's cars like the Mach-E that are helping to fulfill Tesla's Massive Transformative Purpose:
_"Accelerate the transition to sustainable transportation"_


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## GDN (Oct 30, 2017)

Something I just learned (and it may have been covered in a number of the reviews) but the volume knob doesn't have a hole through the screen. It is glued on to the front and has something behind it in one spot that would simulate your finger touching the screen as you turn it, the screen is simply touch sensitive and programmed for the volume control in that section.


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## Taney71 (Dec 28, 2018)

Has Ford said they would do software updates like Tesla? I remember GM said the Bolt had that capability but it is only used for updating the infotainment system, nothing with the battery or other parts of the car.


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## GDN (Oct 30, 2017)

Taney71 said:


> Has Ford said they would do software updates like Tesla? I remember GM said the Bolt had that capability but it is only used for updating the infotainment system, nothing with the battery or other parts of the car.


The capability has been added to the car, but we've not seen it in action yet I don't believe. They claim they can and will do more behind the scenes updates and some updates will take as few as 2 minutes. https://media.ford.com/content/ford...ford-over-the-air-updates-mustang-mach-e.html


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## Needsdecaf (Dec 27, 2018)

Yes, this was specificaly mentioned during the press launch. Including the fact that hands free driving (ala GM Supercruise) is coming via OTA update (paid).


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## Taney71 (Dec 28, 2018)

Thanks to both of you!


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## GDN (Oct 30, 2017)

garsh said:


> I finally got around to watching Doug's review.
> 
> I really like how Ford handled the exterior door handles - there aren't any.
> Instead, you press a button to pop the door out, then you can pull it open the rest of the way by just grabbing the door edge.
> This is genius, and I'm a little surprised that Elon didn't come up with this idea - it would have been great to get rid of door handles altogether, including all the issues with them icing over.


GM has had a similar setup on the Corvette for many years. I don't know if they had the door pushers like the X and the Mach E have, but it was an electronic setup hidden from the outside view. You reach your fingers inside the pocket, you "pull" on the switch and door as it pops open.

The buttons from Ford look like they could still get water in them and perhaps freeze, hopeful that there is a membrane though that will keep the water out. The pushers are nice however.


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## Needsdecaf (Dec 27, 2018)

Quite a few have solenoid activated door handles, mainly exotics McLaren comes to mind.


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## Taney71 (Dec 28, 2018)

So it is mid-January and my local Ford dealership (in Ann Arbor) still doesn't have a Mach E model in. They said January but now are saying likely not for a month or longer. Not sure what that means. I really like the car but I'm not ordering without still in it and seeing it in person. 

Onto a specific thing I worry about with Ford and other car companies, I've been watching the Mach E reviews and many are saying the software isn't great. I wish I had the Youtube video handy right now but a recent reviewer also noted that the touchscreen lagged a lot. He wasn't the first to mention that specific issue. That worries me a bit.


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## iChris93 (Feb 3, 2017)

Taney71 said:


> So it is mid-January and my local Ford dealership (in Ann Arbor) still doesn't have a Mach E model in.


I've seen several on the roads around here. I wonder if they're manufacturer vehicles?


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## garsh (Apr 4, 2016)

Taney71 said:


> So it is mid-January and my local Ford dealership (in Ann Arbor) still doesn't have a Mach E model in. They said January but now are saying likely not for a month or longer. Not sure what that means. I really like the car but I'm not ordering without still in it and seeing it in person.
> 
> Onto a specific thing I worry about with Ford and other car companies, I've been watching the Mach E reviews and many are saying the software isn't great. I wish I had the Youtube video handy right now but a recent reviewer also noted that the touchscreen lagged a lot. He wasn't the first to mention that specific issue. That worries me a bit.


It sounds like Ford is having some problems with the new car.
I strongly suggest waiting a year before you consider actually buying one.

*Ford reportedly delays some deliveries of its Mustang Mach-E*
_The company says it's conducting additional quality checks on its new EV_​


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## Needsdecaf (Dec 27, 2018)

garsh said:


> It sounds like Ford is having some problems with the new car.
> I strongly suggest waiting a year before you consider actually buying one.
> 
> *Ford reportedly delays some deliveries of its Mustang Mach-E*
> _The company says it's conducting additional quality checks on its new EV_​


Good advice. This is bleeding edge for Ford. Better not to be a guinea pig, unless they are going to treat you extra special because of it.


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## GDN (Oct 30, 2017)

Taney71 said:


> So it is mid-January and my local Ford dealership (in Ann Arbor) still doesn't have a Mach E model in. They said January but now are saying likely not for a month or longer. Not sure what that means. I really like the car but I'm not ordering without still in it and seeing it in person.
> 
> Onto a specific thing I worry about with Ford and other car companies, I've been watching the Mach E reviews and many are saying the software isn't great. I wish I had the Youtube video handy right now but a recent reviewer also noted that the touchscreen lagged a lot. He wasn't the first to mention that specific issue. That worries me a bit.


Ford is not known for being the best at launching new vehicles. I'm not throwing shade here (we know the issues Tesla has many issues too) but Ford has had issues with many launches.

We bought a new Fusion in 2013. When we started looking we realized you couldn't find one anywhere on a dealers lot although it was widely reported they were being built. Come to find out they had both major headliner and headlight issues. They kept pumping the cars out of the factory in Mexico WITH the problems. Rather than shipping to dealers, they shipped to a factory that had big holding lots in the US and spent weeks and months reworking the cars by hand before then shipping them on out to dealers.

I saw a post on Facebook last week, a new Mach E purchaser was waiting on his delivery any day, but received an email it was delayed likely a month. So it is a new model, new technology and growing pains. However, if there are issues reported with the touchscreen lagging we know that there could be software issues, but Ford is also not one to spend money up front on hardware powerful to support the future, hoping that has changed. They've proven that a few years with Sync, of course that was with Microsoft. I truly haven't heard what OS is behind their system or if they are running something custom. I wouldn't touch it until I saw one in person. I already have this struggle with the Cybertruck. How cool would it be to have one in the first 3 months, I've got a reservation, but I'm thinking I may need to wait a year for tweaks and changes. That next purchase should last me many many years, I don't want regrets.


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## Needsdecaf (Dec 27, 2018)

To piggyback on what GDN said, do a search for the launch of the all new Explorer or Lincoln Aviator (explorer in drag). MAJOR disaster. And I think that was what, late 2019?


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## littlD (Apr 17, 2016)

Also, check out macheforum.com. I joined a few days ago to have a dialogue with other EV enthusiasts. Seems a nice group of people for the most part (kinda like here!).

I've found so far that the Mach-E is drawing more people that already have an EV of some kind but don't like Elon or have concerns about Tesla's labor policies and practices or QA.


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## Needsdecaf (Dec 27, 2018)

littlD said:


> Also, check out macheforum.com. I joined a few days ago to have a dialogue with other EV enthusiasts. Seems a nice group of people for the most part (kinda like here!).
> 
> I've found so far that the Mach-E is drawing more people that already have an EV of some kind but don't like Elon or have concerns about Tesla's labor policies and practices or QA.


Hell, it's drawing me for the same reasons!


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## Taney71 (Dec 28, 2018)

GDN said:


> Ford is not known for being the best at launching new vehicles. I'm not throwing shade here (we know the issues Tesla has many issues too) but Ford has had issues with many launches.
> 
> We bought a new Fusion in 2013. When we started looking we realized you couldn't find one anywhere on a dealers lot although it was widely reported they were being built. Come to find out they had both major headliner and headlight issues. They kept pumping the cars out of the factory in Mexico WITH the problems. Rather than shipping to dealers, they shipped to a factory that had big holding lots in the US and spent weeks and months reworking the cars by hand before then shipping them on out to dealers.
> 
> I saw a post on Facebook last week, a new Mach E purchaser was waiting on his delivery any day, but received an email it was delayed likely a month. So it is a new model, new technology and growing pains. However, if there are issues reported with the touchscreen lagging we know that there could be software issues, but Ford is also not one to spend money up front on hardware powerful to support the future, hoping that has changed. They've proven that a few years with Sync, of course that was with Microsoft. I truly haven't heard what OS is behind their system or if they are running something custom. I wouldn't touch it until I saw one in person. I already have this struggle with the Cybertruck. How cool would it be to have one in the first 3 months, I've got a reservation, but I'm thinking I may need to wait a year for tweaks and changes. That next purchase should last me many many years, I don't want regrets.


Thank you. This is a good view to read. I do worry about being one of the first one's to own a Mach E. At this point I'm going to wait until the summer to decide what I'm going to do. If Tesla would just come out and sell a LR RWD then that would make my life and decision much easier.


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## Needsdecaf (Dec 27, 2018)




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## Klaus-rf (Mar 6, 2019)

OMG!! The Mustang Mach E is a YUUUGE success!

Ford stock (F) is now above $10.00 (just a few pennies right now, but still over ten bucks).


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## Needsdecaf (Dec 27, 2018)

Klaus-rf said:


> OMG!! The Mustang Mach E is a YUUUGE success!
> 
> Ford stock (F) is now above $10.00 (just a few pennies right now, but still over ten bucks).


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## Klaus-rf (Mar 6, 2019)

Yes, seasoned with a pinch o' sarcasm.


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## TrevP (Oct 20, 2015)

I always felt that marketing messed up on that one. They should have come up with another name but honestly: they looked at their history and decided it was the only name that anyone cared about because it was a hit almost 60 years ago so they went with it. They had one job…


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## Needsdecaf (Dec 27, 2018)

TrevP said:


> I always felt that marketing messed up on that one. They should have come up with another name but honestly: they looked at their history and decided it was the only name that anyone cared about because it was a hit almost 60 years ago so they went with it. They had one job…


I can see why they did it. They needed the cachet. They needed to prove they were serious and they needed to prove it wasn't going to be a dull compliance car.

I'm not a Mustang fan, so it's really no skin off my nose. I can understand why the "purists" are peeved, even if there is a whole history of underwhelming Mustangs they largely ignore. Vroom, V8 rules baby! LOL.

IMO, GM is going in an even weirder direction with the electric Corvette.


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## Taney71 (Dec 28, 2018)

I was looking for data on how much Ford is subsidizing the Mach E as I had read about a month ago that the company was building the car at a loss. I haven't found anything around subsidizing but did find this InsideEVs.com article about what Ford projects the resale value to be of the Mach E in three years. The numbers aren't good. Looks like Ford is saying after three years the Mach E will only retain 40% of its value. That seems really low and turns me off from thinking of getting one. Might be better to lease if you really want a Mach E.


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## Needsdecaf (Dec 27, 2018)

Taney71 said:


> I was looking for data on how much Ford is subsidizing the Mach E as I had read about a month ago that the company was building the car at a loss. I haven't found anything around subsidizing but did find this InsideEVs.com article about what Ford projects the resale value to be of the Mach E in three years. The numbers aren't good. Looks like Ford is saying after three years the Mach E will only retain 40% of its value. That seems really low and turns me off from thinking of getting one. Might be better to lease if you really want a Mach E.


That was quoting lease deprecation amounts. Those don't have anything to do with the actual value of the car after 3 years. Manufacturers play with those all the time to make the numbers come out how they want to. In this case, Ford is making the lease more expensive.

The same article quotes that a Model 3 retains 90% of it's value over 3 years (which I find extremely hard to believe based on my personal experience.) I can guarantee you that if you lease a Tesla for 3 years, your residual value shown on the lease is going to be WAY lower than 90%.


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## Taney71 (Dec 28, 2018)

Sorry for the back to back posts but I was on the Ford Mach E forum and found this thread about the lack of communication from the Ford dealers on folks Mach E orders.


Needsdecaf said:


> That was quoting lease deprecation amounts. Those don't have anything to do with the actual value of the car after 3 years. Manufacturers play with those all the time to make the numbers come out how they want to. In this case, Ford is making the lease more expensive.
> 
> The same article quotes that a Model 3 retains 90% of it's value over 3 years (which I find extremely hard to believe based on my personal experience.) I can guarantee you that if you lease a Tesla for 3 years, your residual value shown on the lease is going to be WAY lower than 90%.


Thanks for pointing that out. Very good point.


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## Needsdecaf (Dec 27, 2018)

Taney71 said:


> Sorry for the back to back posts but I was on the Ford Mach E forum and found this thread about the lack of communication from the Ford dealers on folks Mach E orders.
> 
> Thanks for pointing that out. Very good point.


Yeah. It's one of the biggest ways that manufacturers drive demand toward or away leases. Some cars lease terribly. The Money Factor (i.e. the APR on the lease "loan") isn't competitive compared to an actual loan APR. And the residuals are artificially low. Now Lexus and the volume Mercedes, those are king of lease deals. At the end of my Lexus lease, the buyout (which is directly related to the stated residual value as part of the lease) was over $10,000 higher than the actual market value of the car. I would have been a sucker to buy out the car at the end of the lease. Lexus wants that car back so they can sell it as a CPO.

Take a look at residual values just over the same vehicle, with a higher trim. Notice that there's always one trim level (usually the lowest, but not always) with the best residual value %. And then there are dogs.


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## NR4P (Jul 14, 2018)

Taney71 said:


> I was looking for data on how much Ford is subsidizing the Mach E as I had read about a month ago that the company was building the car at a loss. I haven't found anything around subsidizing but did find this InsideEVs.com article about what Ford projects the resale value to be of the Mach E in three years. The numbers aren't good. Looks like Ford is saying after three years the Mach E will only retain 40% of its value. That seems really low and turns me off from thinking of getting one. Might be better to lease if you really want a Mach E.


It is not surprising the car will be built at a loss, for a period of time. But being the first EV for Ford, it may never reach break-even. Imagine all the investment to create it and then the manufacturing lines. I have worked in electronics products manufacturing and some products not nearly as complex as a vehicle can be negative for quite some time.


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## Klaus-rf (Mar 6, 2019)

NR4P said:


> It is not surprising the car will be built at a loss, for a period of time. But being the first EV for Ford, it may never reach break-even. Imagine all the investment to create it and then the manufacturing lines. I have worked in electronics products manufacturing and some products not nearly as complex as a vehicle can be negative for quite some time.


If it makes money right away, it's priced waaay too high and sales will lag. It turns into a loss in any case.


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## Needsdecaf (Dec 27, 2018)

Klaus-rf said:


> If it makes money right away, it's priced waaay too high and sales will lag. It turns into a loss in any case.


Porsche is NOT selling the Taycan at a loss. And sales are somewhat ok.


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## Klaus-rf (Mar 6, 2019)

Porsche is NOT Ford. They're not even competitors in the same market.


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## Taney71 (Dec 28, 2018)

Klaus-rf said:


> Porsche is NOT Ford. They're not even competitors in the same market.


My guess is that premier cars in the 100k range are easier to build as EVs and make some profit. It is likely much harder to make a sub-60k EV that is profitable without having made EVs before. I mean Tesla started with the Roadster and Model S and worked itself to the lower-price Model 3 and Model Y. I could be wrong but that seems to be my impression.


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## serpico007 (Mar 1, 2020)

Ford has the F-150 funds to do this, so they don't need an electric GT40 to start for example. Hope we see more on the road this year and grow EV support.


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## Needsdecaf (Dec 27, 2018)

Klaus-rf said:


> Porsche is NOT Ford. They're not even competitors in the same market.


No they're not, but that wasn't my point.

My point was even though the Taycan is really just a "toe in the water" EV test case for Porsche, they refused to sell it at, honestly, market price. Instead they priced it right on top of the Panamera. It's not as big, nor as luxurious, as a Panamera. But it costs pretty much the same. Because they didn't want any loss leaders.


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## serpico007 (Mar 1, 2020)

I read Porsche just released a lower price Taycan. They maybe more serious than we first thought.


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## Needsdecaf (Dec 27, 2018)

serpico007 said:


> I read Porsche just released a lower price Taycan. They maybe more serious than we first thought.


Yeah, big meh from me.

$80k base gets you an unknown range, the smaller (79kWh) battery vs. 93 kWh), RWD, and a 0-60 of 5.1 Sec. And that's not possibly showing a 0-60 for the larger battery, since all the power figures quoted are for the larger battery.

That's base price.

I optioned one up to just over $110k. Their options are insane. If you want a 19 kW onboard AC charger, that's an extra $1,680!. If you want the ability to charge at 150 kW at a 400 V station (vs. the big 350kw 800V chargers), you need to pay another $480. Otherwise you're stuck with, I think, 100 kW.

Also, their mobile connector is $1,120 extra and it sucks. It runs VERY hot. If you want the wall dock for your mobile connector (literally just a wall dock where you hang the mobile connector inside a larger box that then closes up and makes it look like a wall charger), that's another $470.

Porsche Taycan - a great car, not such a great EV.

I'm a Porsche fan and current owner. But I cannot get over the economics of the vehicle, coupled with the lack of practicality.


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## serpico007 (Mar 1, 2020)

I too am a Porsche owner and was looking at the Taycan last year before deciding on the S. There were too many "what if's" for me to be a beta user for this first generation of Taycan. I'm sure Porsche will learn from this and figure out the charging side of things too because most buyers in this area know of the accessibility of Tesla Superchargers and home charging. I'm still learning about alternatives for charging on road trips but it hasn't been a concern for me yet due to covid restrictions.


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## Needsdecaf (Dec 27, 2018)

serpico007 said:


> I too am a Porsche owner and was looking at the Taycan last year before deciding on the S. There were too many "what if's" for me to be a beta user for this first generation of Taycan. I'm sure Porsche will learn from this and figure out the charging side of things too because most buyers in this area know of the accessibility of Tesla Superchargers and home charging. I'm still learning about alternatives for charging on road trips but it hasn't been a concern for me yet due to covid restrictions.


Judging from the Taycan forums, there have been a lot of new EV owners brought in who are learning some painful lessons of what it means to deal with a less than fully optimized charging network.

Lot of small niggles in the Taycan as well, and one major one...12v battery losing charge while hooked up to charging cable. Pretty widespread and very random issue despite several owners providing very high level, specific data to Porsche.


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## Needsdecaf (Dec 27, 2018)

serpico007 said:


> I too am a Porsche owner and was looking at the Taycan last year before deciding on the S. There were too many "what if's" for me to be a beta user for this first generation of Taycan. I'm sure Porsche will learn from this and figure out the charging side of things too because most buyers in this area know of the accessibility of Tesla Superchargers and home charging. I'm still learning about alternatives for charging on road trips but it hasn't been a concern for me yet due to covid restrictions.


Actually the charging side of things ROCKS on Taycan. It's the charging AVAILABILITY that's questionable.

Spoke to a buddy of mine with a Taycan today. He took a 200 mile trip yesterday. Fast charging was able to sustain 115 kW over 90% ! And he was basically at 150 kW from 28% to 82%.

Impressive.


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## FRC (Aug 4, 2018)

Needsdecaf said:


> It's the charging AVAILABILITY that's questionable.


Does the SPEED of charging matter if the charging solutions aren't reliable?


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## Needsdecaf (Dec 27, 2018)

FRC said:


> Does the SPEED of charging matter if the charging solutions aren't reliable?


Absolutely! Because the charging infrastructure is changing literally every day. Your car's batteries and charger? Not so much.


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## garsh (Apr 4, 2016)

FRC said:


> Does the SPEED of charging matter if the charging solutions aren't reliable?


Given enough time, I feel pretty confident that all charging networks will get better over time. But yeah, I don't expect it to get that much better over the next 3 years, so I would avoid leasing a non-Tesla EV for now if you want to take road trips.


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## Needsdecaf (Dec 27, 2018)

Holy crap, this was bad.

It's a long watch, but I'll give you the short version. In the nearly 50 minutes of this video I watched, the author took a Mach E from Colorado toward LA. I stopped when he got to Vegas.

At every single stop, he had a charging issue. Many times multiple. Sometimes 4-5 charging issues per session. Issues included:


Lack of handshake for Ford "plug and charge"
Extremely low charging speeds (we're talking like 20 kW at low SOC's)
Constant charging interrupted due to "protocol faults". Charger blamed car, car blamed charger. 
Super wonky charging curves. Who ever heard of a faster charging speed for arriving with HIGHER SOC's. 
Having to use 2-3 chargers in a session. 
Having to eat at a Golden Corral while charging (this one's a joke, but really it sort of isn't, lol). 
I mean, it was EXCRUCIATING. I have a buddy with a Taycan who has road tripped and not experienced nearly this level of issues with EA. I have another buddy with a MME and he hasn't had this many issues. Seems like Ford's got a serious software bug out there.

Wow, this was bad. Oh, and Kyle set a cross-country record with a Taycan and owns a Tesla. When he did his Taycan trip, he had a few issues but no where near this many. So this if you don't know this guy, he's no EV noob. He knew all the tricks to try to get things to work right and it just...didn't.


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## iChris93 (Feb 3, 2017)

Needsdecaf said:


> Sometimes 4-5 charging issues per session. Issues included:
> 
> 
> Lack of handshake for Ford "plug and charge"


The VW also has this issue.


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## GDN (Oct 30, 2017)

Needsdecaf said:


> Holy crap, this was bad.
> 
> It's a long watch, but I'll give you the short version. In the nearly 50 minutes of this video I watched, the author took a Mach E from Colorado toward LA. I stopped when he got to Vegas.
> 
> ...


Sad - but not surprising. Read up on the cross-country record with the Taycan. It was only set because they checked ahead with every charger and EA (possibly others) were there to make sure they were working perfectly. The record would not have been set if they'd not had inside contacts. No other driver will get that kind of hand holding.

I'm sure Ford and EA both will get some SW updates out, but when and with what dedication. This will start to show if there is any real dedication to this platform. I don't ever think Ford will add functionality like we get with Tesla. Some may argue their SW was more feature complete up front, but I would venture to guess that there just isn't the dedication and the old stodgy attitude of they bought what we sold, why would we ever improve it for them.

The Mach-E has sold well up front, the die-hards wanted it and were waiting for it. Let the road trip and charging stories get out and it will only cause more skepticism from those on the sidelines.


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## Madmolecule (Oct 8, 2018)

Over there updates might become the biggest curse on manufactures. Everyone will start putting out half-baked products, promise updates will fix everything, and then I’ll move onto the next version and shiny object. In fact it might require to add some additional legislation to prohibit manufacturers from selling future undefined tech and then never delivering it. I do believe Tesla is the only car suitable for travel. If I had to travel with my Tesla and rely only on level two chargers it would be pretty painful. This is why I think there is a huge market for the strip down $25,000 EV because it will really be just a local transporter and you will probably still need to rent a car for travel.


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## shareef777 (Mar 10, 2019)

Needsdecaf said:


> Holy crap, this was bad.
> 
> It's a long watch, but I'll give you the short version. In the nearly 50 minutes of this video I watched, the author took a Mach E from Colorado toward LA. I stopped when he got to Vegas.
> 
> ...


Lasted 5min before I cringed at the display lag. Infotaintment systems have been absolutely horrendous in EVERY ... SINGLE ... VEHICLE I've ever been in. EVER! My 3 is the first that is pretty responsive and quick. It's so quick I find myself going through the touchscreen to open my glovebox instead of using voice. Was hoping companies would have improved the tech aspect of their EV lines :-(


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## GDN (Oct 30, 2017)

shareef777 said:


> Lasted 5min before I cringed at the display lag. Infotaintment systems have been absolutely horrendous in EVERY ... SINGLE ... VEHICLE I've ever been in. EVER! My 3 is the first that is pretty responsive and quick. It's so quick I find myself going through the touchscreen to open my glovebox instead of using voice. Was hoping companies would have improved the tech aspect of their EV lines :-(


I may likely have to go watch a few minutes to see this. I had a Ford Sync system and a few daily operations were tolerable, but there were so many painful things with it. I truly thought Ford was going to put some processing power in this thing and make it useable. The sad part is that most Ford owners are just used to it, so it is the norm for them.


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## Needsdecaf (Dec 27, 2018)

To be clear, I am a MME fan. So to see this pains me greatly. I feel so bad for those owners.


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## shareef777 (Mar 10, 2019)

Needsdecaf said:


> To be clear, I am a MME fan. So to see this pains me greatly. I feel so bad for those owners.


I don't think the charging issue will be focused on by many people. It's a great talking point, but really, how often are people doing those long road trips? A majority of charging is done at home. Even Tesla (as great as their charging network is) can't get close to an ICE vehicle.


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## Needsdecaf (Dec 27, 2018)

shareef777 said:


> I don't think the charging issue will be focused on by many people. It's a great talking point, but really, how often are people doing those long road trips? A majority of charging is done at home. Even Tesla (as great as their charging network is) can't get close to an ICE vehicle.


I think it's going to be an issue. I think this car will be road tripped by more than you think or purchased by people who need to charge outside of the home.

Moreover, for a company the size of Ford, to release a product with so many charging issues is inexcusable. Especially after you've gone in so hard as to use the Mustang name to sell it. They're trying to convert people. This will not help.


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## FRC (Aug 4, 2018)

Virtually all first time EV buyers will demand reliable supercharging solutions because they will believe they are necessary. Only after owning an EV for a while do we realize that superchargers are(generally) a luxury, not a necessity.


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## GDN (Oct 30, 2017)

Needsdecaf said:


> I think it's going to be an issue. I think this car will be road tripped by more than you think or purchased by people who need to charge outside of the home.
> 
> Moreover, for a company the size of Ford, to release a product with so many charging issues is inexcusable. Especially after you've gone in so hard as to use the Mustang name to sell it. They're trying to convert people. This will not help.


I agree. I think the charging, whether you road trip it or not is one of the biggest concerns by those that don't own an EV. You can tell the story all day long, but one bad story about not being able to reach a charger or having to go out of the way on a trip, or even when someone forgets to plug in one night at home and you need a local charger, will offset the news of 1000 good stories.

All you have to do is join a few Facebook groups about EV's that also have the general public in them to find the naysayers.

We also have many that don't own homes with garages. I realize they should have every right to also own an EV. If you own a Tesla, most know where they can charge and have rare issues. If you depend on EA and you fight charging issues every few weeks, well more bad news.


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## garsh (Apr 4, 2016)

Needsdecaf said:


> Moreover, for a company the size of Ford, to release a product with so many charging issues is inexcusable. Especially after you've gone in so hard as to use the Mustang name to sell it. They're trying to convert people. This will not help.


I think the problem in this case is probably on the charging station side. These third-party DC charging stations are notoriously finicky.

Tesla made an incredibly wise decision when they designed the first superchargers - they used the same exact inverters that they had designed for AC charging use in the cars themselves. So whatever bugs existed were easily uncovered by the sheer numbers of these inverters in use, both in stations and in vehicles..


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## JasonF (Oct 26, 2018)

The reason behind 3rd party stations being finicky is they're not all using the same version of the communications protocol. If you buy a Ford Mach-E, they based their protocol on probably a pretty recent standard. If the station is using a slightly older version, it won't be able to communicate with the Ford until either the station is upgraded, or Ford adds some backward compatibility. From there, it's a contest to see which side blinks first.

That also means that the charging stations outside of cities are more likely to give you the most problems, because they're likely not upgrades as frequently as the ones in cities. Which could be really obnoxious, because those are the ones you need most while traveling.


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## GDN (Oct 30, 2017)

I can only hope that with VW getting an EV of it's own on the road in the US, they might take better care of the EA chargers. I have to admit I do not know all of the details of that agreement. I know they had to front billions to build, I don't know who is responsible for run, if they get a little skin in the game and their own owners complaining, maybe they will improve.


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## Needsdecaf (Dec 27, 2018)

garsh said:


> I think the problem in this case is probably on the charging station side. These third-party DC charging stations are notoriously finicky.
> 
> Tesla made an incredibly wise decision when they designed the first superchargers - they used the same exact inverters that they had designed for AC charging use in the cars themselves. So whatever bugs existed were easily uncovered by the sheer numbers of these inverters in use, both in stations and in vehicles..


The reason I say that this is a Ford problem is that he had an issue with EVERY charging stop, and multiple charging devices at each stop in some cases. There's no way that the EA network is THAT bad.


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## shareef777 (Mar 10, 2019)

Needsdecaf said:


> The reason I say that this is a Ford problem is that he had an issue with EVERY charging stop, and multiple charging devices at each stop in some cases. There's no way that the EA network is THAT bad.


Honestly, whenever I pull into a mall or store that offers L2 charging I attempt to leverage it. However, I'd say (rough estimate) 95%+ of the time there's at least one of them that's broken (and usually there's only two to begin with). I think the issue is more that the charging stations are either not well monitored and therefore necessary maintenance/repairs aren't being completed. Or they're not in a rush to fix these till they're down to zero stalls available due to lack of demand. Hopefully as more EVs start leveraging these EA will see an increase in profit and invest in their upkeep/repairs.

Tesla's SC network was used to sell vehicles which lead to profit. I just don't see EA being profitable enough to send out the necessary techs to repair these (especially the more remote ones that are more critical).


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## iChris93 (Feb 3, 2017)

Needsdecaf said:


> The reason I say that this is a Ford problem is that he had an issue with EVERY charging stop, and multiple charging devices at each stop in some cases. There's no way that the EA network is THAT bad.


The Engineering Explained video I linked early suggested it was a bigger issue for VW's own vehicles!


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## GDN (Oct 30, 2017)

shareef777 said:


> Honestly, whenever I pull into a mall or store that offers L2 charging I attempt to leverage it. However, I'd say (rough estimate) 95%+ of the time there's at least one of them that's broken (and usually there's only two to begin with). I think the issue is more that the charging stations are either not well monitored and therefore necessary maintenance/repairs aren't being completed. Or they're not in a rush to fix these till they're down to zero stalls available due to lack of demand. Hopefully as more EVs start leveraging these EA will see an increase in profit and invest in their upkeep/repairs.
> 
> Tesla's SC network was used to sell vehicles which lead to profit. I just don't see EA being profitable enough to send out the necessary techs to repair these (especially the more remote ones that are more critical).


If they had much usage it shouldn't take long to become profitable at the prices they charge.

Once again, Chicken or the Egg. Elon built the SC and maintains it. EA has built, but truly it seems the maintenance is sub par. They have to keep all stations usable and updated so when that occasional ID.4 or MachE or Taycan comes along it gives them what they are expecting.

If Elon would only make a reasonably priced CCS adapter for the US I'm sure we have a large number of drivers/cars that would be glad to help them.


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## JWardell (May 9, 2016)

Needsdecaf said:


> Holy crap, this was bad.
> 
> It's a long watch, but I'll give you the short version. In the nearly 50 minutes of this video I watched, the author took a Mach E from Colorado toward LA. I stopped when he got to Vegas.
> 
> ...


Yeah. I watched the whole thing. And it's not unique. It seems like Ford did a great job with the Mach-E, I was really surprised how well the driving was reviewed. But the charging sounds like a nightmare, almost every single time. Hopefully it is just software, and they fix it before production ramps and it really starts hurting peoples impressions of EVs. EA of course seems problematic in general, unacceptable for their sky high pricing. And they still have several entire states without locations.


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## littlD (Apr 17, 2016)

Needsdecaf said:


> To be clear, I am a MME fan. So to see this pains me greatly. I feel so bad for those owners.


I've been frequenting macheforum.com and trying to help out.

As an EV enthusiast first and a twice Tesla owner second, I want cars like the Mach-E to succeed.

There's SO MUCH market opportunity for all the manufacturers, and them having issues makes people shy away from Tesla as well thinking we have similar charging issues.

I'm now pretty convinced most of the Mach-E's charging issues are tied to Ford and EA's implementation of ISO15118 (the Plug & Charge std).

The other big misses are the slowdown at 80% to no more than 14 kW and the fact that anyone can press "stop" on the touch screen to stop charging.

I know the latter is supposed to be for safety. Yet when has a Tesla ever needed to be taken off a Supercharger in an emergency?

The rest of the issues are the different charging equipment manufacturers EA has used. ABB, Signet, et al. It looks like some chargers were installed before the vendors had worked out all the bugs because EA wanted 150kW and 350kW charging speeds.

Finally, other issues include the "continue" button that is totally unnecessary on the EA screen (people don't know to press it), bad payment readers, and the possible lack of pack pre-conditioning.


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## Needsdecaf (Dec 27, 2018)

GDN said:


> I agree. I think the charging, whether you road trip it or not is one of the biggest concerns by those that don't own an EV. You can tell the story all day long, but one bad story about not being able to reach a charger or having to go out of the way on a trip, or even when someone forgets to plug in one night at home and you need a local charger, will offset the news of 1000 good stories.
> 
> All you have to do is join a few Facebook groups about EV's that also have the general public in them to find the naysayers.
> 
> We also have many that don't own homes with garages. I realize they should have every right to also own an EV. If you own a Tesla, most know where they can charge and have rare issues. If you depend on EA and you fight charging issues every few weeks, well more bad news.


You wrote my point much better than I did, thank you!


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## Needsdecaf (Dec 27, 2018)

littlD said:


> I've been frequenting macheforum.com and trying to help out.
> 
> As an EV enthusiast first and a twice Tesla owner second, I want cars like the Mach-E to succeed.
> 
> ...


My buddy who is a 5X Tesla owner and now drives a Taycan has said the absolute worst thing has not been just pulling up and having charging start within 30 seconds of you pressing the park button. He absolutely cannot stand it coming from Superchargers.

Also, kudos to you for helping spread general EV knowledge to noob's. Very cool!


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## bwilson4web (Mar 4, 2019)

The nearest Mach-E is in Cullman AL so Saturday I drove down to sit-in and walk-around. I had no plan to drive it. 

What I found was a nice hatchback. The seat was too low, foxhole mode, but I easily raised it to see a reasonable front view. But when I asked about the driver assistance, the salesman said 'divided highways only.' Talk about a deal breaker.

Bob Wilson


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## lance.bailey (Apr 1, 2019)

saw a mach-E in a parking lot on Saturday. Not a bad looker, but it was too hot for me to wait around to see which of the big boxen the owner was visiting.


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## Needsdecaf (Dec 27, 2018)

bwilson4web said:


> The nearest Mach-E is in Cullman AL so Saturday I drove down to sit-in and walk-around. I had no plan to drive it.
> 
> What I found was a nice hatchback. The seat was too low, foxhole mode, but I easily raised it to see a reasonable front view. But when I asked about the driver assistance, the salesman said 'divided highways only.' Talk about a deal breaker.
> 
> Bob Wilson


That's your deal breaker. Personally, that's where I use it because that's the only place it's truly safe, IMO.

Given the furor we've seen around accidents happening while on AP, I'm ok with this stance for now.


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## JWardell (May 9, 2016)

In Monroe's latest video...






The difference between the front and rear inverter/motor package is shocking! Quite clearly two different teams. The rear is nice and efficiently packaged, and the front looks worse than something I would throw together in my basement, wasting a ton of space, and coolant hoses everywere


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## littlD (Apr 17, 2016)

Two different teams maybe?


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## JWardell (May 9, 2016)

I will say this though: Mach-Es are available in inventory at dealerships right now.
And Model 3 trade-in prices are almost what I paid for the car.
I could trade for a mach-E, and nearly zero cost, collect the tax rebate...
And then when Tesla catches up/when Austin comes online, jump back to Tesla.

Who am I kidding? But financially, this is an unusual opportunity.


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## lance.bailey (Apr 1, 2019)

a classic [shelby] cobra effect


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## NR4P (Jul 14, 2018)

JWardell said:


> I will say this though: Mach-Es are available in inventory at dealerships right now.
> And Model 3 trade-in prices are almost what I paid for the car.
> I could trade for a mach-E, and nearly zero cost, collect the tax rebate...
> And then when Tesla catches up/when Austin comes online, jump back to Tesla.
> ...


An interesting idea but I took a few minutes to read through the MachE forums. What a mess with 3rd party charging. You would not dare to trust this vehicle on a long trip. I know Tesla has had its own problems early in its life and even the Refresh S has issues with s/w not being baked fully, but Ford and EV America and Blink need to work out these issues ASAP.


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## garsh (Apr 4, 2016)

NR4P said:


> An interesting idea but I took a few minutes to read through the MachE forums. What a mess with 3rd party charging. You would not dare to trust this vehicle on a long trip.


I'm surprised Car & Driver named it their EV of the Year after the debacle they had with charging it in their "EV 1000" race.
They disqualified the Model S because it had a motor failure during their testing. I guess they didn't hold "3rd party EVSE compatibility" against the Mach E.

https://www.caranddriver.com/features/a36877585/ev-1000-11-electric-cars-long-distance-race/
_About 50 miles north of Morgantown, the Mach-E's fast start was falling apart in a spectacular string of charging failures. An EVgo station refused to work for more than a minute at a time, eating up a half-hour before the drivers moved on. With 6 percent battery charge, the Mach-E crawled 10 miles to another EVgo unit and had the same problem. The team then crossed the street and hooked up to a Level 2 station._​


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## Klaus-rf (Mar 6, 2019)

garsh said:


> I'm surprised Car & Driver named it their EV of the Year after the debacle they had with charging it in their "EV 1000" race.


If you count the Ford ads in C&D, your surprise will suddenly go away.


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## JWardell (May 9, 2016)

garsh said:


> I'm surprised Car & Driver named it their EV of the Year after the debacle they had with charging it in their "EV 1000" race.
> They disqualified the Model S because it had a motor failure during their testing. I guess they didn't hold "3rd party EVSE compatibility" against the Mach E.
> 
> https://www.caranddriver.com/features/a36877585/ev-1000-11-electric-cars-long-distance-race/
> _About 50 miles north of Morgantown, the Mach-E's fast start was falling apart in a spectacular string of charging failures. An EVgo station refused to work for more than a minute at a time, eating up a half-hour before the drivers moved on. With 6 percent battery charge, the Mach-E crawled 10 miles to another EVgo unit and had the same problem. The team then crossed the street and hooked up to a Level 2 station._​


I'm not surprised at all, C&D has done nothing but manufacture ammunition against Tesla for years. It's why I cancelled my decades-long subscription. Shame on them.


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## JWardell (May 9, 2016)

ouch


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1416807848194023428


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## Nom (Oct 30, 2018)

I watched first 13 minutes. Sounds bad. But damn, that could have been said in 2 minutes. I guess I’m becoming more impatient.

Clearly sounds like an indictment of the dealer model and the incentive dynamic. If only we could count on people doing the right thing for others just for the sake of doing so.


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## Klaus-rf (Mar 6, 2019)

So this guy brags about selling his old truck for super top dollar because the used and new car/truck market is soooo good - and new cars & trucks are soooo hard to get [for reasons]. then complains that he can't get Ford's most popular, limited-production new car now for super cheap?

Am I missing something?


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## Needsdecaf (Dec 27, 2018)

JWardell said:


> I will say this though: Mach-Es are available in inventory at dealerships right now.
> And Model 3 trade-in prices are almost what I paid for the car.
> I could trade for a mach-E, and nearly zero cost, collect the tax rebate...
> And then when Tesla catches up/when Austin comes online, jump back to Tesla.
> ...


Not in TX they aren't. Tesla trade on a Model 3 sucks. $10,000 under what I was quoted from Vroom and Carvana. And even those, at 14 months and 30k miles, are $10,000 less than I paid for the car.


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## garsh (Apr 4, 2016)

Needsdecaf said:


> Tesla trade on a Model 3 sucks.


"Trading in to Tesla" will always get you a low-ball offer, because Tesla generally doesn't sell used cars.
But "Trade in to a Ford dealer" for a Mach-E will get you a better offer, because the dealer will always have a used-car center where they'll try to make money on a good trade-in.


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## Needsdecaf (Dec 27, 2018)

garsh said:


> "Trading in to Tesla" will always get you a low-ball offer, because Tesla generally doesn't sell used cars.
> But "Trade in to a Ford dealer" for a Mach-E will get you a better offer, because the dealer will always have a used-car center where they'll try to make money on a good trade-in.


I traded two cars to Tesla, in Dec 2018 and March 2020. At those times, both offers were within the difference of sales tax credit (at 6.25%) from what I was getting from the third party services. I never tried to sell outright because one car was a lease and the other car had a lien. But it certainly wasn't $10k lower. But then again, different market. Tesla may have held onto their pricing model while the rest of the market has risen.


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## JasonF (Oct 26, 2018)

garsh said:


> "Trading in to Tesla" will always get you a low-ball offer, because Tesla generally doesn't sell used cars.
> But "Trade in to a Ford dealer" for a Mach-E will get you a better offer, because the dealer will always have a used-car center where they'll try to make money on a good trade-in.


The maximum you will likely get is from Carmax (or something like it) since they usually turn around and put it right on the lot - so they have the lowest risk, and are willing to pay more. Tesla will pay the least, because it will always sell to to an auction house, and a Ford dealer might if they don't think they can sell it immediately, so they pay in the middle for medium risk.


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## Needsdecaf (Dec 27, 2018)

GT / Performance Reviews dropped yesterday. My key takeaways:

Magneride fixes much of what people have been complaining about regarding the suspension (which seems eerily similar to how I would describe my Model 3).

Sport seats a huge improvement

Ford promises to upgrade charging over 80% including OTA for existing cars.

Unbridled extended seems like a good idea but half baked. Too hard to get into.

Kyle from Inside EV's / Out of Spec loves the Perf. pack.


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## littlD (Apr 17, 2016)

I frequent macheforum.com. Folks are getting concerned about Ford's OTA. I'm sure Ford will get this worked out, but it sure looks like they have a problem on their hands.

Currently, Ford Promising OTA updates, yes, delivering OTA updates no


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## $ Trillion Musk (Nov 5, 2016)

I'm a dissatisfied former Focus EV owner. Went through >2 years of hell until they finally repurchased my bricked car back.

Ford is doomed. 

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1447292383960473602
P.S. Saw the Mach-E on the highway last week. Looks like a wannabe mustang. Not a fan.


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## lance.bailey (Apr 1, 2019)

There are a few mach-e near me. I took a good walk around one the other day. It does not scream mustang to me - i see a high powered crossover, not a sports car.


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## JasonF (Oct 26, 2018)

$ Trillion Musk said:


> P.S. Saw the Mach-E on the highway last week. Looks like a wannabe mustang. Not a fan.


For people who are upset that Tesla shoves Beta software in front of us and uses us as testers - the Mach-E is Ford's Beta EV. The first non-Beta Ford EV will be the F-150 Lightning.

I mean, it's not bad, but it's pretty obvious from watching Sandy Munroe's video's that parts of the Mach-E were kind of taped together and rushed out.


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## $ Trillion Musk (Nov 5, 2016)

JasonF said:


> the Mach-E is Ford's Beta EV. The first non-Beta Ford EV will be the F-150 Lightning.


That would make my old Focus EV the Alpha. :tearsofjoy:


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## FRC (Aug 4, 2018)

Tesla's $0 advertising budget is indicative of nothing other than the fact that presently Tesla is smart enough to know that advertising is wasted when you can't meet unadvertised demand. Don't read too much into that; when[or if] competition catches up, Tesla will also adopt a massive marketing budget. As Mr. Wrigley is famous for saying; the train can't keep up it's momentum without an engine[marketing] to drive it.


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## shareef777 (Mar 10, 2019)

JasonF said:


> For people who are upset that Tesla shoves Beta software in front of us and uses us as testers - the Mach-E is Ford's Beta EV. The first non-Beta Ford EV will be the F-150 Lightning.
> 
> I mean, it's not bad, but it's pretty obvious from watching Sandy Munroe's video's that parts of the Mach-E were kind of taped together and rushed out.


You must of missed the reports of early Ys that had the cooling/heating system pieced together. I figure to see similar issues with the Lightning, Cybertruck, and pretty much any mass market vehicle new model vehicle.

Even ones sold in lower quantities (see Corvette C8).


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## JWardell (May 9, 2016)

With Tesla's constant Model Y price hikes and the very favorable reviews of the Mach-E GT Performance, it sounds like it wins over the Y, in fact Kyle says this definitively at the end of his review.
Perhaps I'll give one a test drive.


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## JasonF (Oct 26, 2018)

JWardell said:


> With Tesla's constant Model Y price hikes and the very favorable reviews of the Mach-E GT Performance, it sounds like it wins over the Y, in fact Kyle says this definitively at the end of his review.


This is actually one of the big issues that Tesla has IMO - that though they're headed the _direction _of becoming mainstream, their board of directors seems to be in a constant tug-of-war of whether they want to firmly plant themselves in the full mainstream market, or backslide into the luxury segment. Elon Musk of course wants to go more mainstream, and wants to lean on bringing the prices down and introducing a $25k model. But the stockholders would be more pleased with upward pressure on prices, pushing Tesla back into a market where price doesn't matter (and of course meaning that the $25k model is doomed).

I think a lot of where Tesla actually heads depends on how many other car companies embrace the EV transition full-on - because if players like Toyota and Ford go all-in, they can afford to produce a lower priced car that might not be as cool and tech-heavy as Tesla, but can definitely beat them on price. And the lower end market is _all_ about price. That's where you get the attention of buyers who don't really care, and just want an A to B car, and maybe might be interested in an EV only if the price is competitive and it's cheaper to own and maintain.

The downside to that happening is it means that while I like Teslas, there might be a point again where their cars move firmly out of my price range (for example if the Model 3 would go up drastically and start at the $75k the Model S used to occupy), and then I would have to look at what Ford, Toyota, and Mazda have to offer. So I'm actually happy that Ford has EV models they actually put some thought into, it gives me the option if it comes to that. I would hate to watch the other players in the market not care, or give up, and _then_ Tesla moves out of my reach, forcing me (and lots of others) back into the ICE market.


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## FRC (Aug 4, 2018)

JWardell said:


> With Tesla's constant Model Y price hikes and the very favorable reviews of the Mach-E GT Performance, it sounds like it wins over the Y, in fact Kyle says this definitively at the end of his review.
> Perhaps I'll give one a test drive.


Your thoughts on this topic mirror my own, @JWardell; with one caveat-Supercharging. If your intention is largely as a daily driver around town and/or single charge commutes, the MachE appears to be a great option. If you road trip often, Tesla remains the only viable option; for now. Hopefully, before I need a new EV, the supercharging network options and new EV options will give me a variety of solid choices.

I am definitely not the Tesla fan boy I once was(Elon's antics and Tesla's overall policy of customer nonservice has cured me). I desperately hope that there will be many quality EV choices in the near future. Because I remain an EV fan boy.


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## lance.bailey (Apr 1, 2019)

FRC said:


> ... and Tesla's overall policy of customer nonservice has cured me...


sorry to clip so much, but this phrase is important, is key and I truly believe will be behind any downfall or course correction for Tesla.


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## $ Trillion Musk (Nov 5, 2016)

Tried Ford already and I wouldn’t ever make that mistake again. If ever your EV has a problem, having to interact with incompetent dealerships day in and day out is such a nightmare.

They’ve given me fake diagnoses such as rodents chewing the wires which caused powertrain failure, when it never was the case. 

If you think Tesla service is bad, Ford service is absolutely clueless to a whole new level. Plus they hate EVs since there’s less money to be made. It’s pretty much the same story across all dealerships around my area.

I’m more open to the likes of Rivian or Lucid, but beware of legacy automakers.


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## shareef777 (Mar 10, 2019)

JasonF said:


> This is actually one of the big issues that Tesla has IMO - that though they're headed the _direction _of becoming mainstream, their board of directors seems to be in a constant tug-of-war of whether they want to firmly plant themselves in the full mainstream market, or backslide into the luxury segment. Elon Musk of course wants to go more mainstream, and wants to lean on bringing the prices down and introducing a $25k model. But the stockholders would be more pleased with upward pressure on prices, pushing Tesla back into a market where price doesn't matter (and of course meaning that the $25k model is doomed).
> 
> I think a lot of where Tesla actually heads depends on how many other car companies embrace the EV transition full-on - because if players like Toyota and Ford go all-in, they can afford to produce a lower priced car that might not be as cool and tech-heavy as Tesla, but can definitely beat them on price. And the lower end market is _all_ about price. That's where you get the attention of buyers who don't really care, and just want an A to B car, and maybe might be interested in an EV only if the price is competitive and it's cheaper to own and maintain.
> 
> The downside to that happening is it means that while I like Teslas, there might be a point again where their cars move firmly out of my price range (for example if the Model 3 would go up drastically and start at the $75k the Model S used to occupy), and then I would have to look at what Ford, Toyota, and Mazda have to offer. So I'm actually happy that Ford has EV models they actually put some thought into, it gives me the option if it comes to that. I would hate to watch the other players in the market not care, or give up, and _then_ Tesla moves out of my reach, forcing me (and lots of others) back into the ICE market.


The only "luxury" I got with our Tesla's was the price. The 3 and Y aren't luxury vehicles anymore then the Accord and CRV.


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## shareef777 (Mar 10, 2019)

Personally, I think Tesla's price is more aligned with their capacity to produce the vehicles than it is to ANY competitors. Good ole supply/demand for ya.

Tesla's aren't luxury, but they're most definitely unique and I think that's enough to get a lot of people willing to spend extra to buy in. Only issue is that group of people isn't THAT large. I know A LOT of friends and family that would love to buy a Tesla, but the price alone is keeping them away. The stigma of owning an EV and/or range anxiety is gone. It's all about the price now.


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## FRC (Aug 4, 2018)

shareef777 said:


> stigma of owning an EV and/or range anxiety is gone


Not true in my neck of the woods.


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## Dano9258 (Jul 13, 2018)

I've been seeing more and more Mach Es on the road recently. I love it! But our test drive it felt cheap and it's not a sporty car....it's an suv and drives like one. So we went with another model 3.


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## shareef777 (Mar 10, 2019)

FRC said:


> Not true in my neck of the woods.


I'm sure you'll find pockets of people that still prefer the horse and carriage too 😂


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## JWardell (May 9, 2016)

FRC said:


> Your thoughts on this topic mirror my own, @JWardell; with one caveat-Supercharging. If your intention is largely as a daily driver around town and/or single charge commutes, the MachE appears to be a great option. If you road trip often, Tesla remains the only viable option; for now. Hopefully, before I need a new EV, the supercharging network options and new EV options will give me a variety of solid choices.
> 
> I am definitely not the Tesla fan boy I once was(Elon's antics and Tesla's overall policy of customer nonservice has cured me). I desperately hope that there will be many quality EV choices in the near future. Because I remain an EV fan boy.


Supercharging is certainly and advantage now, but Tesla is opening it up to CCS, so it's no longer an advantage.


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## iChris93 (Feb 3, 2017)

JWardell said:


> Supercharging is certainly and advantage now, but Tesla is opening it up to CCS, so it's no longer an advantage.


Elon time


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## garsh (Apr 4, 2016)

JWardell said:


> Supercharging is certainly and advantage now, but Tesla is opening it up to CCS, so it's no longer an advantage.


I don't see Tesla _actually_ making this available until there's some kind of federal incentive introduced to offset the cost of fast-charging networks for networks that are available to any EV.


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## JWardell (May 9, 2016)

garsh said:


> I don't see Tesla _actually_ making this available until there's some kind of federal incentive introduced to offset the cost of fast-charging networks for networks that are available to any EV.


( Federal government x Elon Time ) / "Two weeks" = NaN


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## Needsdecaf (Dec 27, 2018)

$ Trillion Musk said:


> I'm a dissatisfied former Focus EV owner. Went through >2 years of hell until they finally repurchased my bricked car back.
> 
> Ford is doomed.
> 
> ...












What does their advertising spend have to do with anything?


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## shareef777 (Mar 10, 2019)

Needsdecaf said:


> What does their advertising spend have to do with anything?


This is also patently false. They don't spend on traditional advertising (TV/Radio), but they spend in other areas. The events they had/have to showcase the CyberTruck, Plaid, Battery Day, etc aren't free and serve no purpose other than to ADVERTISE their products.


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## TrevP (Oct 20, 2015)

shareef777 said:


> This is also patently false. They don't spend on traditional advertising (TV/Radio), but they spend in other areas. The events they had/have to showcase the CyberTruck, Plaid, Battery Day, etc aren't free and serve no purpose other than to ADVERTISE their products.


Still cheaper than going to a traditional car show and getting all the eyeballs instead of having to share with others


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## Mike (Apr 4, 2016)

shareef777 said:


> This is also patently false. They don't spend on traditional advertising (TV/Radio), but they spend in other areas. The events they had/have to showcase the CyberTruck, Plaid, Battery Day, etc aren't free and serve no purpose other than to ADVERTISE their products.


There is a difference between "marketing" and a subset of marketing known as "paid advertising".

It's generally acknowledged that Tesla doesn't spend any capital on "paid advertising" (at least outside China) but it is generally acknowledged that Tesla does spend capital on "marketing" (such as the open house at Giga Berlin, etc).


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## shareef777 (Mar 10, 2019)

TrevP said:


> Still cheaper than going to a traditional car show and getting all the eyeballs instead of having to share with others





Mike said:


> There is a difference between "marketing" and a subset of marketing known as "paid advertising".
> 
> It's generally acknowledged that Tesla doesn't spend any capital on "paid advertising" (at least outside China) but it is generally acknowledged that Tesla does spend capital on "marketing" (such as the open house at Giga Berlin, etc).


No doubt Tesla's actual spend compared to legacy automakers is practically zero, but most definitely NOT zero. In addition to the shows there's the "referral" system that costs them money (in vehicles and SC miles). The beauty of Tesla is that they're bleeding edge in EVERYTHING they do. The vehicles, the manufacturing, the ordering/logistics, and yes, even their marketing. I don't think there's a single facet to their business that compares to legacy.

On a similar note, Rivian/Lucid seem to have the same "marketing" strategy as Tesla. We'll see how long that'll last.


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## garsh (Apr 4, 2016)

shareef777 said:


> On a similar note, Rivian/Lucid seem to have the same "marketing" strategy as Tesla. We'll see how long that'll last.


As long as these manufacturers can sell every vehicle they produce, there's no need to generate more demand through advertising.


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## FRC (Aug 4, 2018)

shareef777 said:


> On a similar note, Rivian/Lucid seem to have the same "marketing" strategy as Tesla. We'll see how long that'll last.


It will last about as long as they have no standing inventory. How stupid would they have to be to advertise something that IS NOT for sale?


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## GDN (Oct 30, 2017)

FRC said:


> It will last about as long as they have no standing inventory. How stupid would they have to be to advertise something that IS NOT for sale?


I don't disagree at all, but. Ford has already been mentioned in this thread. I see Lightning advertisements almost daily. Since they already have big money set aside for advertising, there is some gain - if you've seen nothing but one product in front of you in advertisements for a year and then one day you get up and decide to purchase a product in said category - you go look at the one you've seen repeatedly.

I don't see how it can ever pay off for the money they spend, but someone does.


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## shareef777 (Mar 10, 2019)

FRC said:


> It will last about as long as they have no standing inventory. How stupid would they have to be to advertise something that IS NOT for sale?


Like how Tesla had a presentation for the CT, Semi, and Roadster?


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## garsh (Apr 4, 2016)

shareef777 said:


> Like how Tesla had a presentation for the CT, Semi, and Roadster?


Yeah, Tesla screwed up the timing with those presentations. They really should have waited until production was more imminent, like they did with the Model Y.


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## JasonF (Oct 26, 2018)

garsh said:


> Yeah, Tesla screwed up the timing with those presentations. They really should have waited until production was more imminent, like they did with the Model Y.


What really confuses a lot of people about Tesla is, most of the other car companies out there will secretly test new models in camouflage, and the automotive press takes great delight in trying to get spy photos of them. When they finally do unveil the model to the public, it's ready to be manufactured within a few months.

Tesla has no such thing, because Elon Musk displays cars that are barely even concepts on stage in front of the world. It makes people have high expectations that it will be produced very soon, because that's what they're used to with other companies.


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## Nom (Oct 30, 2018)

garsh said:


> Yeah, Tesla screwed up the timing with those presentations. They really should have waited until production was more imminent, like they did with the Model Y.


Did they? Have you seen the stock price? They issued shares after stock lift. Pretty damn good.

Seems like Tesla is the rage. I'm not sure they have done wrong by creating buzz and anticipation the way they did.


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## shareef777 (Mar 10, 2019)

JasonF said:


> What really confuses a lot of people about Tesla is, most of the other car companies out there will secretly test new models in camouflage, and the automotive press takes great delight in trying to get spy photos of them. When they finally do unveil the model to the public, it's ready to be manufactured within a few months.
> 
> Tesla has no such thing, because Elon Musk displays cars that are barely even concepts on stage in front of the world. It makes people have high expectations that it will be produced very soon, because that's what they're used to with other companies.


The worst of it is when the final released product is barely a derivative of an existing model. I've seen some spy shots of the Corvette E-ray and it cracks me up every time. You can tell that it's the same exact car as the current C8 Corvette. What's the point?


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## shareef777 (Mar 10, 2019)

Nom said:


> Did they? Have you seen the stock price? They issued shares after stock lift. Pretty damn good.
> 
> Seems like Tesla is the rage. I'm not sure they have done wrong by creating buzz and anticipation the way they did.


Their stock is soaring because they sold out of vehicles they sell TODAY. If anything, stock would have dropped considering all the unreleased products have been pushed back a year or more.


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## garsh (Apr 4, 2016)

Nom said:


> Did they? Have you seen the stock price? They issued shares after stock lift. Pretty damn good.


Yeah, good point. I remember when the Model 3 was revealed. They hyped it up too much, and too early. They almost Osborne'd their Model S sales. Elon backtracked quickly, saying that the Model S would always have the "best features", even though most of us could clearly see that the Model 3 had much better technology. But they learned their lesson - the Model Y reveal was much more low-key.

The Roadster/Semi/Cybertruck reveals won't eat into current sales too much since the vehicles are rather different from the current offerings. And it helps to know that these vehicles are in the pipeline to keep potential buyers from going elsewhere (such as buying a Rivian truck). So yeah, it's not bad.


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## $ Trillion Musk (Nov 5, 2016)

This is nuts. Dealerships are digging their own grave.


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## JWardell (May 9, 2016)

JasonF said:


> What really confuses a lot of people about Tesla is, most of the other car companies out there will secretly test new models in camouflage, and the automotive press takes great delight in trying to get spy photos of them. When they finally do unveil the model to the public, it's ready to be manufactured within a few months.
> 
> Tesla has no such thing, because Elon Musk displays cars that are barely even concepts on stage in front of the world. It makes people have high expectations that it will be produced very soon, because that's what they're used to with other companies.


This is simply because Tesla is a tech company, not a car company. Car companies take 6-8 years to develop a model, and the last two they have prototypes driving before any public announcement. They need this time for the speed at which they operate.

Tesla can go from final rendering and only spend a few months in the prototype phase before real production. So they really can announce a car, and have it in customers hands less than a year later. Partly because of their unmatched speed of engineering and development, and partly because we continue to beta test the cars for years after they go into production. Ship it, and fix the software or add features later. As Sandy said, the Model Y heat pump had 7 revisions in six months, after production started. This kind of stuff would occur a year or two before production with traditional automakers, and than would be locked down (often for several years).

Frankly, Ford was forced to break its own mode when it had about two years to push out the Mach-E, and therefore hand off large portions to other suppliers. So you have front and rear drivetrains with totally different designs and connectors. The real measure will be with the F150 to truly measure their engineering and integration.


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## JasonF (Oct 26, 2018)

JWardell said:


> This kind of stuff would occur a year or two before production with traditional automakers, and than would be locked down (often for several years).


I read that was because Tesla broke another mold - it used to be that automakers got a vehicle certified for manufacturing, and then they were afraid that if they do so much as upgrade the software for the in-car UI, the whole car would have to be re-certified, and they would have to halt production for months to wait for that.

Tesla pushed the boundary a bit by refusing to re-certify for software updates, and when they didn't have problems with it, other companies slowly started following suit.


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## shareef777 (Mar 10, 2019)

JWardell said:


> Tesla can go from final rendering and only spend a few months in the prototype phase before real production.


CT, Semi, Roadster beg to differ.


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## garsh (Apr 4, 2016)

shareef777 said:


> CT, Semi, Roadster beg to differ.


I think this delay is due to inability to procure & produce enough battery cells rather than the vehicles requiring more design time.


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## shareef777 (Mar 10, 2019)

garsh said:


> I think this delay is due to inability to procure & produce enough battery cells rather than the vehicles requiring more design time.


But the 4680 batteries is part of the vehicle. That's like saying an ICE is ready, but they just need to design/build the engine, transmission, and other drivetrain components.

Considering they pulled the specs off the CT page, I'd also argue that the final design/details aren't completed.


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## sonoswen (Sep 13, 2021)

$ Trillion Musk said:


> Tried Ford already and I wouldn't ever make that mistake again. If ever your EV has a problem, having to interact with incompetent dealerships day in and day out is such a nightmare.
> 
> They've given me fake diagnoses such as rodents chewing the wires which caused powertrain failure, when it never was the case.
> 
> ...


I tried to buy a Mach-e from the dealer in my area...they never had any in stock so no test drive. I kept going back for two months and they had nothing. Every salesperson I talked to knew next to nothing about EV's, but a lot about the many new Pickup trucks out front. In all it was very dissapointing. Ordered a Model 3, picked it up less than 60 days, lovin every minute of it.


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## Dano9258 (Jul 13, 2018)

$ Trillion Musk said:


> This is nuts. Dealerships are digging their own grave.
> 
> View attachment 40241


Hahaha, the sad thing is, someone will actually pay that.


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## JWardell (May 9, 2016)

shareef777 said:


> CT, Semi, Roadster beg to differ.


I said _can_... I meant to finish the thought that while I think they intended to release them earlier, they latched these models on the need for the latest battery tech for the range (semi, roadster) and cost (CT) that they advertised. Then after announcements, Tesla decided to completely re-invent the wheel moving to 4680 and structural packs. In fact, I bet the latest tech we are seeing now in the Plaid pack is probably what they were originally intending to use. There's no way they intended to wait this long when they originally announced these vehicles. I'm sure batteries are indeed the holdup, but will be worth the wait across the board, for both range and cost benefits.


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## JasonF (Oct 26, 2018)

shareef777 said:


> But the 4680 batteries is part of the vehicle. That's like saying an ICE is ready, but they just need to design/build the engine, transmission, and other drivetrain components.


Tesla assembles the batteries, but in order to make it, it needs materials. That's likely what's being delayed, the delivery of enough materials to make the batteries.


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## Mr. Spacely (Feb 28, 2019)

Yep. It is raw materials. LIT- a lithium and battery ETF is up over 100% in the last year. Copper is "only" up 90%.


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## $ Trillion Musk (Nov 5, 2016)

5 seconds… that's what she said 🤣


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1460302868326469638


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## JWardell (May 9, 2016)

Edmunds seems to be unaware of the unbridled preserve mode that is intended for this kind of driving and keeps power constant.


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