# Autonomous drive



## Gadge (Apr 12, 2016)

The Model 3 will have Autopilot sensors/hardware as standard equipment...any speculation as to the option cost for autonomous drive capability?


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## AEDennis (Apr 10, 2016)

@Gadge, Tesla likes to use the figure $2,500 for upgrades...

I will guess about that much.


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## 101uk (Apr 3, 2016)

Any thoughts on if the Autopilot options for the Model 3 will be a dumbed down version, such as no auto park or summon?


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## AEDennis (Apr 10, 2016)

101uk said:


> Any thoughts on if the Autopilot options for the Model 3 will be a dumbed down version, such as no auto park or summon?


I would guess auto pilot safety standard, cool stuff for more $ upgrade.


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## garsh (Apr 4, 2016)

101uk said:


> Any thoughts on if the Autopilot options for the Model 3 will be a dumbed down version, such as no auto park or summon?


No. Tesla has the opportunity to really differentiate themselves from mainstream brands. Musk has already stated that every Model 3 will have autopilot hardware. At that point, it makes the most sense to offer every autopilot feature available, at least as an added-cost upgrade. It will be yet another reason for the car to be extremely desirable, and the "upgrade" at that point is flipping a software switch via an over-the-air update.


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## TE3LA (Apr 3, 2016)

Good article: http://www.newyorker.com/business/c...a-model-3-be-the-first-truly-self-driving-car


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## TrevP (Oct 20, 2015)

It's my opinion that Elon really wants Model 3 to be the first commercially-available autonomous vehicle, and by extension Model S and Model X. Tesla sees this technology, along with their battery tech, as an extreme value-add and puts them above everyone else.


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## TE3LA (Apr 3, 2016)

Yep, its also another reason why I just laugh everytime I see articles putting the Bolt and M3 side-by-side.


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## garsh (Apr 4, 2016)

I have this vision of Model 3 deliveries being accomplished by programming the buyer's address into the navigation system at the factory and sending it on its way.


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## AEDennis (Apr 10, 2016)

garsh said:


> I have this vision of Model 3 deliveries being accomplished by programming the buyer's address into the navigation system at the factory and sending it on its way.


Funny. However, until they can pass the liability for the car to the owner as the car leaves the assembly line, they'll have to define liability at some point.


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## garsh (Apr 4, 2016)

AEDennis said:


> Funny. However, until they can pass the liability for the car to the owner as the car leaves the assembly line, they'll have to define liability at some point.


Yep. My assumption is that the manufacturers will have to accept liability for their self-driving cars. When there is an at-fault accident, it gives them an incentive to fix the problem. I know Google has gone on record as saying they would accept liability for their cars, but that's easy to do when you aren't selling them yet to the public. We'll see what Tesla and governments decide to do, but they better figure it out soon.


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## Gary Moore (Apr 10, 2016)

Surely lawyers and bean counters must really have their say, because how would we ever survive on this planet without law suits or payments or signatures, but watching a spanking new, driverless vehicle just pull up at your home while the neighbors jaws drop would be quite priceless. "Oh, that's just my new Tesla. It affords me so much more time to smell the roses."


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## Pinewold (Apr 4, 2016)

Tesla puts the liability on the driver. May change later, but for now autopilot is on you


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## Van Shrider (Apr 3, 2016)

garsh said:


> I have this vision of Model 3 deliveries being accomplished by programming the buyer's address into the navigation system at the factory and sending it on its way.


Wouldn't happen. It's not yours until you do the walk around, inspect it for possible transit damage, paint defects, sign and take possession.

On that note, someone on here had a checklist...


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## Pinewold (Apr 4, 2016)

Like the idea of automous delivery, how about you send two cars, one for owner and second inspection car that has bot with 4K video camera and telepresence screen so rep can talk new owner through the walk through. Once walk through is done the bot does a high resolution final scan, hops in the second car and drives back to the factory!


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## Van Shrider (Apr 3, 2016)

is this thing going to slow if there is a deer on the side of the road, or will it detect and slow to prevent a Deer collision?


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## James Alexander (Apr 6, 2016)

Charging for autonomous abilities definitely makes sense, but I can't help but feel that he is going to make full autonomous features standard across the range. It will become a Tesla USP as much as the superchargers are.

Elon was in Norway recently talking about how much safer the cars are when they are driving themselves. Put that alongside how well the cars perform in crash tests and you have a range of cars which Tesla will be able to claim are the safest cars on the road, have the least environmental impact and still manage to look cool. Thats a trifecta of pain for all the other car manufacturers, the industry will have to change to compete.


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## Gary Moore (Apr 10, 2016)

Yes, machines are hopefully not designed to become intoxicated and decide erroneously that they can defy Newton's laws of motion. 

History is most valuable when you learn from it and it does not hold you back with old habits that have become no longer beneficially applicable to reality.


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## Pinewold (Apr 4, 2016)

James Alexander said:


> Charging for autonomous abilities definitely makes sense, but I can't help but feel that he is going to make full autonomous features standard across the range. It will become a Tesla USP as much as the superchargers are.
> 
> Elon was in Norway recently talking about how much safer the cars are when they are driving themselves. Put that alongside how well the cars perform in crash tests and you have a range of cars which Tesla will be able to claim are the safest cars on the road, have the least environmental impact and still manage to look cool. Thats a trifecta of pain for all the other car manufacturers, the industry will have to change to compete.


Maybe standard in mid or high end packages, but not likely free


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## thecatdad (Apr 8, 2016)

This may sound cynical, but I don't see autonomous driving being legal inside the next decade. At least in the US. The Government tends to move glacially slow, especially when adopting new tech. Unless there is a major push by big players with lots of money, and an opportunity for the politicians to line their pockets, nothing will change. 

I just think that with the amount of independent testing necessary (with an extremely high success rate) to convince lawmakers and insurance companies that autonomous is 10X safer than human drivers (Elon's number, not mine), it will be awhile until we go autonomous. 

The EU or UK may be a lot faster to adopt.


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## Blackout (Apr 24, 2016)

Self delivered option would be cool but that most likely not going to happen. 

I really think the model 3 will include their next generation of sensors (hopefully a LiDAR although I really don't see how they can incorporate that beautifully in the body of the car...) and as of now these sensors are being developed for autonomous driving. So maybe a year or 2 after first delivery they will update the car with this option. At a cost for current owners and included in the price for new owners or maybe as an option. 
Imagine in 2020 you go to work, than your car become an Uber driver, receiving payments for driving others to there desired locations while you work, charged itself when it's running low and waiting for other customers (using the snake charger...). You would receive a notification on your fone that someone is interested to hire your car for a ride, you would check their profile and if you like that you accept and your car goes to work... Since it would know your schedule based on your calendar it would make itself available just when you finish work to drive you home... Then keep going on becoming a Uber driver throughout the night making that cash as you sleep... Sheeshh that's dope...
Women keeps complaining about Uber drivers that they are getting hitting on all the time, we'll your car doesn't talk... At least not yet... 
That would literally be the end of fossil fuels cars, and your car would basically gain value instead of losing it the first day you drive it away from the dealership...


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## MelindaV (Apr 2, 2016)

reading this is causing some déjà vu 
I personally don't want strangers in my car, more so if I'm not in it too. 
How Uber has suckered people into their business model is astonishing to me.


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## AEDennis (Apr 10, 2016)

MelindaV said:


> reading this is causing some déjà vu
> I personally don't want strangers in my car, more so if I'm not in it too.
> How Uber has suckered people into their business model is astonishing to me.


I barely tolerate family members in there with us.

I feel the same way regarding Uber business model. Though I know folks who do it for a living (using Model S) and they're pretty happy. And some have multiple vehicles and actually are a car service that occasionally use their vehicles for Uber.


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## Blackout (Apr 24, 2016)

MelindaV said:


> reading this is causing some déjà vu
> I personally don't want strangers in my car, more so if I'm not in it too.
> How Uber has suckered people into their business model is astonishing to me.


Déjà Vue?
But seriously having said that I have to agree with you too, although it would be a cool way to get easy money with no effort and kill the taxi industry, I would be always worry of people getting in my car and start having sex on the back seat since no one else is in there lol...


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## Englander (Apr 17, 2016)

Blackout said:


> Déjà Vue?
> But seriously having said that I have to agree with you too, although it would be a cool way to get easy money with no effort and killed the taxi industry, I would be always worry of people getting in my car and start having sex on the back seat since no one else is in there lol...


Just go for the leather upholstery, you'll be fine


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## MelindaV (Apr 2, 2016)

Or here in the land of legal pot, stinking it up by smoking weed while having sex on the back set


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## Van Shrider (Apr 3, 2016)

It's been noted that autopilot wanders from left to right, trying to keep track of the lines on the road.
Question #1 for our resident current Tesla owners
- what has your experience been with this?
Question # 2
- if it depends on the lines, what happens in a construction zone where the lines are randomly mixed up and crisscrossing?
It's bad enough when your GPS tells you that you need to get back on the highway for a 30 mile stretch because it doesn't recognize the lane you are in.


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## AEDennis (Apr 10, 2016)

We have a 2013 pre-Autopilot Model S.

I've been known to randomly change lanes, however


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## garsh (Apr 4, 2016)

Based only on a test drive, it will follow a car in front of you instead of relying solely on the lines. The display on the dash even communicates how autopilot is determining where to go by either highlighting the road lines or a picture of the car in front.

But please realize that autopilot is just a fancy adaptive cruise control. Don't treat it as a completely autonomous car. If you notice the road ahead being something other than well-marked highway, turn it off & take over.


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## MelindaV (Apr 2, 2016)

On many of the autopilot demo videos on YouTube show the car beeping and asking the driver to put their hands on the wheel if conditions are not ideal too. So expect in a construction area with multiple pavement marks, it would want the driver to be paying attention.


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## arnulf (Apr 15, 2016)

Very little has been revealed about how Tesla and Mobileye work together. Professor Amnon Shashua at Mobileye say "Tesla are acting as their own Tier 1, we work directly with Tesla" . . .
(I would appreciate if someone with more knowledge could elaborate).

On CES 2016 Mobileye Co-founder, CTO and Chairman Amnon Shashua discusses the future of autonomous driving and road mapping (roadbook model) at his press conference: "Sensing and beyond. Towards Full Autonomous Driving".

Simon Stent a final year PhD student in computer vision from the UK made a write up on his blog: http://www.saistent.com/autonomous-driving-mobileye-1 (You find link to video in the first paragraph).

There is also a copy of this video on youtube (without the Q&A part at the end): 




You can also find other Mobileye videos on Automated Driving here:
http://ir.mobileye.com/investor-relations/Video-Gallery/default.aspx
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=Amnon+Shashua
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=Mobileye

Watch some of the videos to discover how Mobileye works, and where they are heading.

It is very interesting how Mobileye use cameras and "roadbook" to navigate.

Will Model 3 use Mobileye EyeQ3 with 1 camera (as Model S & X use) (or several EyeQ3)
or EyeQ4 with 8 cameras, Trifocal in front + 5 additional cameras (rear + corners) ?


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## Pinewold (Apr 4, 2016)

Elon already has data to show a 50% improvement for autopilot. It won't come all at once, but considering there are over 47 million miles of data already, the data only gets better. With 500k model 3' traveling even 1000 miles a year on autopilot, even a sceptic asking for a billion miles of data may be satisfied by 2020.


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## Blackout (Apr 24, 2016)

I like how heated Elon gets when someone diss Tesla, I wonder what he would say about this... Although comparing a Level 3 with a level 4 is a bit unfair... This engineer has some good point about Tesla... Any thoughts?

http://jalopnik.com/volvo-engineer-calls-out-tesla-for-dangerous-wannabe-au-1773519459


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## Mike (Apr 4, 2016)

thecatdad said:


> This may sound cynical, but I don't see autonomous driving being legal inside the next decade. At least in the US. The Government tends to move glacially slow, especially when adopting new tech. Unless there is a major push by big players with lots of money, and an opportunity for the politicians to line their pockets, nothing will change.
> 
> I just think that with the amount of independent testing necessary (with an extremely high success rate) to convince lawmakers and insurance companies that autonomous is 10X safer than human drivers (Elon's number, not mine), it will be awhile until we go autonomous.
> 
> The EU or UK may be a lot faster to adopt.


I just watched an interesting 45ish minute video on Reddit of an owner demonstrating and talking about the autonomous drive from his house to his place of work.
Two things struck me while watching that video.
First, the driver and the Model S autonomous software both seemed totally relaxed while driving in someone else's blind spot. I use the term blind spot because that is what most people call the zones at your 4 o'clock and 8 o'clock positions. Of course, if one's exterior mirrors are adjusted correctly (and not set to see the side of your own vehicle), there is no "blind spot". Until the software is designed to recognize and keep you out of someone else's blind spot (by moving you ahead or falling behind), this system is still in its early days.
The second detail was how sometimes the vehicle would be fooled by a freeway off ramp instead of remaining in the right lane of the freeway. This type of behavior was also seen a few times in urban driving. If one has a destination in the GPS, then one should expect the autonomous software to "know" to ignore "that off ramp" because it does not matter to the route selected to destination. Same with the minor iterations seen on city streets. I'm guessing that the autonomous software is not talking to the GPS navigation system to predict a path through the upcoming "fork in the road". This also has to be addressed before wide adoption.


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## Mike (Apr 4, 2016)

MelindaV said:


> reading this is causing some déjà vu
> I personally don't want strangers in my car, more so if I'm not in it too.
> How Uber has suckered people into their business model is astonishing to me.


Uber may get a run for its money yet....
I can't figure how to forward the link, so Google the followingToronto Star story:
*Meet the Montrealer who gave Uber a jolt*


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## Mike (Apr 4, 2016)

Van Shrider said:


> It's been noted that autopilot wanders from left to right, trying to keep track of the lines on the road.
> Question #1 for our resident current Tesla owners
> - what has your experience been with this?
> Question # 2
> ...


Watch this video


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## garsh (Apr 4, 2016)

Mike said:


> I'm guessing that the autonomous software is not talking to the GPS navigation system to predict a path through the upcoming "fork in the road". This also has to be addressed before wide adoption.


Tesla's current Autopilot feature should not be mistaken for autonomous driving. It only attempts to follow the current lane in the road at a set speed. It does not take exits (not on purpose - when it does, it's a failure), and it does not have any notion of a destination. It does not plan a route at all.

It's just a very fancy cruise control.


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## TrevP (Oct 20, 2015)

Current autopilot tech should be thought of as "advanced cruise control". It will be gradually improved over time to offer true autonomous apabilites, especially once version 2.0 of the hardware is ready. 

Model 3 will come with the new hardware but I doubt the software will be ready on day one. It's something that will pushed out to the fleet as it improves.


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## Mike (Apr 4, 2016)

garsh said:


> It's just a very fancy cruise control.





TrevP said:


> Current autopilot tech should be thought of as "advanced cruise control".


Garsh, Trev: agreed. What I've been led to believe versus what I saw in that Reddit video are two different things. It is currently the best cruise control I've ever seen, but not autonomous (yet). Cheers


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## Badback (Apr 7, 2016)

I'm not sure that autonomous should be the goal. If autopilot makes for a relaxing highway trip, I'm fine with driving some of the time.


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## TrevP (Oct 20, 2015)

@Badback Full autonomous is the goal @ Tesla and the 3 will be the mass market car that will put them on the map. They consider it their "moonshot". They don't like to talk about it much since it's still in development but watch and see. It might take a year or so for the software to be ready after the 3 starts shipping but it will happen.


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## Blackout (Apr 24, 2016)

Badback said:


> I'm not sure that autonomous should be the goal. If autopilot makes for a relaxing highway trip, I'm fine with driving some of the time.


But autonomous might be better for you back ...lol...


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## Blackout (Apr 24, 2016)

Hey what do you guys think of that one?


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## TrevP (Oct 20, 2015)

Elon almost spills the beans... My take on this: _Model 3 will indeed be the first fully autonomous vehicle on the market_. Second part of the reveal *might* take place later this year


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## Blackout (Apr 24, 2016)

TrevP said:


> Elon almost spills the beans... My take on this: _Model 3 will indeed be the first fully autonomous vehicle on the market_. Second part of the reveal *might* take place later this year


LOOOLLL his face is priceless...

But I don't think we can conclude that it will happened this year from his comment...but I think we can definitely say he is planning on announcing autonomous driving on the model 3...


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## Blackout (Apr 24, 2016)

Anyone else noticed how tired he looks? I wonder if it's the Model 3 not allowing him to rest...


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## Mike (Apr 4, 2016)

Blackout said:


> Anyone else noticed how tired he looks? I wonder if it's the Model 3 not allowing him to rest...


Yes....and yes.


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## TrevP (Oct 20, 2015)

Elon's works 100+ hours a week and travels like a mad man. Yeah, he needs a break


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## John (Apr 16, 2016)

My takeaway was free autopilot. I don't know about the autonomous driving part.


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## MelindaV (Apr 2, 2016)

John Beans said:


> My takeaway was free autopilot. I don't know about the autonomous driving part.


Autopilot = autonomous
unless you are talking specifically the AP safety features, which we already knew would be included for free. Full AP autonomous I am 99.9% sure will be an added fee, just as it is on the S and X.


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## John (Apr 16, 2016)

MelindaV said:


> Autopilot = autonomous
> unless you are talking specifically the AP safety features, which we already knew would be included for free. Full AP autonomous I am 99.9% sure will be an added fee, just as it is on the S and X.


Did you listen to his comment?
http://www.engadget.com/2016/06/02/musk-tesla-will-do-the-obvious-thing-for-autopilot-on-model-3/


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## MelindaV (Apr 2, 2016)

John Beans said:


> Did you listen to his comment?
> http://www.engadget.com/2016/06/02/musk-tesla-will-do-the-obvious-thing-for-autopilot-on-model-3/


I watched it myself yesterday and didn't get that out of it. When asked if there would be a Model 3 event when the 6 weeks are up and if it would be fully autonomous, he replied by saying there would not be an event in the next 6 weeks. The comment regarding "obvious thing" I think it's obvious they are already charging the S/X for the pleasure to use the AP convenience features, and it would make sense to have the obvious thing be to treat the car that costs a fraction of them the same and not give it away for free.


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## 101uk (Apr 3, 2016)

I think people need to be careful by what the terms Autopilot and autonomous mean. Autopilot is only a certain level of autonomy (level 3 I think) So to me given all the noise around full autonomy and Musk's prediction last year that he thought full autonomy was a couple of years away. I think the M3 will have hardware for full autonomy with parts of this being activated OTA updates as legislation permits. I still think Autopilot will be an optional extra.


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## Blackout (Apr 24, 2016)

101uk said:


> I think people need to be careful by what the terms Autopilot and autonomous mean. Autopilot is only a certain level of autonomy (level 3 I think) So to me given all the noise around full autonomy and Musk's prediction last year that he thought full autonomy was a couple of years away. I think the M3 will have hardware for full autonomy with parts of this being activated OTA updates as legislation permits. I still think Autopilot will be an optional extra.


For sure Auto Pilot will be an extra option, and you can bet when autonomous driving becomes available, it would be free temporarily, then later you'll have to pay to keep that option...So same hardware, will get them double profit lol, because they'll make money on the autopilot option + make money when the activate autonomous driving...


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## John (Apr 16, 2016)

He said that if he told, it would be "big news." Saying, "Yeah, we're going to charge for autopilot like we always have" would not be big news. Since it wouldn't be POSSIBLE for him to offer autonomous, the only thing left is free Autopilot. Right?


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## TrevP (Oct 20, 2015)

There are 5 autonomy levels as per NHTA:

http://www.nhtsa.gov/About+NHTSA/Pr...eases+Policy+on+Automated+Vehicle+Development

*No-Automation (Level 0):* The driver is in complete and sole control of the primary vehicle controls - brake, steering, throttle, and motive power - at all times.
*Function-specific Automation (Level 1):* Automation at this level involves one or more specific control functions. Examples include electronic stability control or pre-charged brakes, where the vehicle automatically assists with braking to enable the driver to regain control of the vehicle or stop faster than possible by acting alone.
*Combined Function Automation (Level 2):* This level involves automation of at least two primary control functions designed to work in unison to relieve the driver of control of those functions. An example of combined functions enabling a Level 2 system is adaptive cruise control in combination with lane centering.
*Limited Self-Driving Automation (Level 3):* Vehicles at this level of automation enable the driver to cede full control of all safety-critical functions under certain traffic or environmental conditions and in those conditions to rely heavily on the vehicle to monitor for changes in those conditions requiring transition back to driver control. The driver is expected to be available for occasional control, but with sufficiently comfortable transition time. The Google car is an example of limited self-driving automation.
*Full Self-Driving Automation (Level 4):* The vehicle is designed to perform all safety-critical driving functions and monitor roadway conditions for an entire trip. Such a design anticipates that the driver will provide destination or navigation input, but is not expected to be available for control at any time during the trip. This includes both occupied and unoccupied vehicles.
Tesla's current Autopilot is level 2. Over time Tesla will implement levels 3 and 4 but those really require better sensor hardware (more cameras really) and better software.

The best part is that they're gathering tons of driving information to run through their simulations to teach their systems so Elon's accelerated timeline might indeed come to pass (less than 2 years). We'll see.


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## Blackout (Apr 24, 2016)

TrevP said:


> There are 5 autonomy levels as per NHTA:
> 
> http://www.nhtsa.gov/About+NHTSA/Pr...eases+Policy+on+Automated+Vehicle+Development
> 
> ...


I would make the case that the current autopilot is a Level 3...


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## garsh (Apr 4, 2016)

Blackout said:


> I would make the case that the current autopilot is a Level 3...


I originally thought this too, but it's not good enough to recognize all of the situations that it is incapable of handling. This video shows an unfortunate example.


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## MelindaV (Apr 2, 2016)

garsh said:


> I originally thought this too, but it's not good enough to recognize all of the situations that it is incapable of handling. This video shows an unfortunate example.


to be fair to AP, the van video was not using AP, but TACC only.


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## Blackout (Apr 24, 2016)

I just finished listening his interview... It was interesting... It was long, but interesting... Here is the link:






Couple things caught my intention,

Pencil down in 6 weeks, anything else will go to new models...
Autonomous driving will be completely safe and ready to use in 2yrs from now...
But government will need to see billions of miles for at least 1 year after Autonomous driving is released to the public before they start regulations on driving...
Now he said brakes doesn't need to be change on Tesla's car ever... And it last as long as the car... (is that true?, I have a feeling it's not the case for MS)
Ohhh and he also said he is planning a 2nd event about the model 3...maybe by the end of this year...
Hmmm couple things to be excited about...


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## Mike (Apr 4, 2016)

Blackout said:


> Now he said brakes doesn't need to be change on Tesla's car ever... And it last as long as the car... (is that true?, I have a feeling it's not the case for MS)


Just blue sky thinking here (as above statement not true for MS), keeping in mind the need for all M3 ideas to be easy to manufacture:

What if brakes are some technique other than hydraulic pressure applying a friction material against a rotating mass?

Thoughts?

Cheers


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## Blackout (Apr 24, 2016)

Hmmm I didn't think of it that way, I thought he was going with a similar setup with the S, didn't think he was alluding to a new brake system....
Although I find this unlikely to be on the M3, it's not impossible...


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## John (Apr 16, 2016)

Nah, he's just talking about what's already there.


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## Blackout (Apr 24, 2016)

John Beans said:


> Nah, he's just talking about what's already there.


So is true what he said? No need to change the brakes... Ever?


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## John (Apr 16, 2016)

The car preferentially uses regenerative breaking rather than break pads.
I've never replaced the brake pads on m 2008 Prius. For instance.


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## Blackout (Apr 24, 2016)

John Beans said:


> The car preferentially uses regenerative breaking rather than break pads.
> I've never replaced the brake pads on m 2008 Prius. For instance.


Ohhhh ya? Did you had your prius since 2008?
So there are the rotors and pads your saying you haven't changed any of that?


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## garsh (Apr 4, 2016)

Blackout said:


> So there are the rotors and pads your saying you haven't changed any of that?


Yes, that's what he's saying.


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## 101uk (Apr 3, 2016)

Brakes need to be used regularly to prevent them seizing up.


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## John (Apr 16, 2016)

Brakes are not a thing to worry about on a car with regen.


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## MelindaV (Apr 2, 2016)

Blackout said:


> Ohhhh ya? Did you had your prius since 2008?
> So there are the rotors and pads your saying you haven't changed any of that?


my 2008 gasoline car (60k) has the original brake pads/rotors. it's not that much of a stretch. My 2000 had the pads replaced around 80k +/- and stock rotors didn't need to be replaced but did with a drilled/performance rotor at the same time.


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## Guy Weathersby (Jun 22, 2016)

101uk said:


> Brakes need to be used regularly to prevent them seizing up.


On the Prius (at least on my 2005) the Regen doesn't work below 7 miles per hour, so you do use the brakes regularly. Also the Regen is not as strong as a Tesla. I had to change the pads somewhere around 10 years and 110,000 miles.


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## TrevP (Oct 20, 2015)

Guy Weathersby said:


> On the Prius (at least on my 2005) the Regen doesn't work below 7 miles per hour, so you do use the brakes regularly. Also the Regen is not as strong as a Tesla. I had to change the pads somewhere around 10 years and 110,000 miles.


10 years is a good long time and a testament to regenerative braking


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## Guy Weathersby (Jun 22, 2016)

My guess is that Tesla will charge for Autopilot as long as it is beta/convenience/novelty feature.At some point it will evolve into autonomous driving and Tesla will declare it a safety feature and make it standard. This may or may not be when most of the regulatory hurdles are cleared. Further down the road, they will start charging for the "manual driving feature" which will allow the driver to turn off autonomous driving.

All of this seems consistent with Tesla's philosophy. No other auto maker would take this route, but that is why I own Tesla stock and not the other makers.


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## John (Apr 16, 2016)

Recent controversy notwithstanding, I still think "the obvious thing" is to make Autopilot standard.


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## chopr147 (May 23, 2016)

Why make AP standard? AP is so popular and a must have if buying a Tesla. Keep it reasonable like it is now, $2500 on the S and a high percentage of buyers will add it. I have no problem at all paying the $2500 as I think it's a bargain when compared to other auto makers.


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## John (Apr 16, 2016)

Charging $2500 means most people won't buy it.
On the other hand, it probably helps with liability if users pay for it. No one can say that they didn't expect it.


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## Badbot (May 25, 2016)

the other makers charge for it until the Gov. mandates it


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## Guy Weathersby (Jun 22, 2016)

chopr147 said:


> Why make AP standard?


If you mean, "is it consistent with short term profit maximization?" then the answer is no it does not make sense, I think that Tesla's answer is "because it is the right thing to do." It is the same reason Tesla gave away patents potentially worth billions.

In this case they have a feature wth zero marginal cost which they feel will save thousands of lives. So at some point it will be standard. I am not sure of the timing.


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## chopr147 (May 23, 2016)

Like Elon said AP safety features are standard. It just makes sense to charge extra for the more desirable features. Maybe $1500 on the 3? Hey, I would love to see it free. If not I will definitely pay extra for it. I say it's a bargain due to all the R& D that went into it.


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## Badbot (May 25, 2016)

Guy +1 here


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## Dan Detweiler (Apr 8, 2016)

The constant upgradeability (is that a word?) of autopilot makes it a steal even at $2500...for me at least. It is the number 1 option I will be getting.

Dan


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## chopr147 (May 23, 2016)

That is my thinking. Some complain about paying $2500 which I just don't understand. I also believe it to be a steal and the constant updates must be taken into account. Tesla could easily charge more for AP, at least on the S. On the Model 3 my guess is $1500


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## Topher (May 11, 2016)

chopr147 said:


> That is my thinking. Some complain about paying $2500 which I just don't understand. I also believe it to be a steal and the constant updates must be taken into account. Tesla could easily charge more for AP, at least on the S. On the Model 3 my guess is $1500


They complain because they can't afford it, not because it is priced higher than it's worth.

Thank you kindly.


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## Blackout (Apr 24, 2016)

Blackout said:


> Imagine in 2020 you go to work, then your car becomes an Uber driver, receiving payments for driving others to their desired locations while you work, charged itself when it's running low and waiting for other customers (using the snake charger...). You would receive a notification on your phone that someone is interested in hiring your car for a ride, you would check their profile and if you like that you accept and your car goes to work... Since it would know your schedule based on your calendar it would make itself available just when you finish work to drive you home... Then keep going on becoming a Uber driver throughout the night making that cash as you sleep... Sheeshh that's dope...
> Women keep complaining about Uber drivers that they are getting hitting on all the time, we'll your car doesn't talk... At least not yet...
> That would literally be the end of fossil fuels cars, and your car would basically gain value instead of losing it the first day you drive it away from the dealership...


Yep, It looks like the man with the plan is already working on it... and it's called "Tesla Shared Fleet"

_Sharing When true self-driving is approved by regulators, it will mean that you will be able to summon your Tesla from pretty much anywhere. Once it picks you up, you will be able to sleep, read or do anything else enroute to your destination.
You will also be able to add your car to the Tesla shared fleet just by tapping a button on the Tesla phone app and have it generate income for you while you're at work or on vacation, significantly offsetting and at times potentially exceeding the monthly loan or lease cost. This dramatically lowers the true cost of ownership to the point where almost anyone could own a Tesla. Since most cars are only in use by their owner for 5% to 10% of the day, the fundamental economic utility of a true self-driving car is likely to be several times that of a car which is not.
In cities where demand exceeds the supply of customer-owned cars, Tesla will operate its own fleet, ensuring you can always hail a ride from us no matter where you are.

_


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## chopr147 (May 23, 2016)

Very cool! Though nobody is taking my car anywhere !


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## Blackout (Apr 24, 2016)

chopr147 said:


> Very cool! Though nobody is taking my car anywhere !


At least the option is there for people who might wanna use it, and for people who might benefit from the service of this Tesla Fleet...


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## MelindaV (Apr 2, 2016)

curious if anyone here has used the current car sharing services like Car2Go or ZipCar and how you felt the prior drivers left the cars. obviously not exactly the same as these are company owned fleets, but still used on the fly by various people.
For just over a year, there was a service called FlightCar (their website lists they closed down all locations as of 7/14) at Portland's airport and a dozen or so other places around the country where when you flew out, you could 'park' your car for free and it could be rented out to others. so a more similar model, but obviously it didn't pan out for them too well.


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## KirbyTurbo (Jun 24, 2016)

MelindaV said:


> curious if anyone here has used the current car sharing services like Car2Go or ZipCar and how you felt the prior drivers left the cars. obviously not exactly the same as these are company owned fleets, but still used on the fly by various people.
> For just over a year, there was a service called FlightCar (their website lists they closed down all locations as of 7/14) at Portland's airport and a dozen or so other places around the country where when you flew out, you could 'park' your car for free and it could be rented out to others. so a more similar model, but obviously it didn't pan out for them too well.


When I lived in DC, I used ZipCar. Most of the cars were left pretty clean. The carpet wasn't vacuumed but the car was clean enough where I wasn't picking up old fries.


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## TrevP (Oct 20, 2015)

Someone will surely buy another car and put it into service exclusively to make money and keep their personal Model 3 as a daily driver.


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## Blackout (Apr 24, 2016)

TrevP said:


> Someone will surely buy another car and put it into service exclusively to make money and keep their personal Model 3 as a daily driver.


Heyy...That's a great Idea...


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## TrevP (Oct 20, 2015)

I. 


Blackout said:


> Heyy...That's a great Idea...


I was thinking of fractional ownership with someone else to reduce the capital costs even more.


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## Blackout (Apr 24, 2016)

TrevP said:


> I.
> 
> I was thinking of fractional ownership with someone else to reduce the capital costs even more.


Hey Trev,

I had this question maybe you may know...Let's say I reserved my car on the first day, then couple months later after Tesla already reserved their 500k car for the first year...I decide to buy a 2nd Model 3 under my name...Do you think I would receive both cars at the same time, which would be fairly early relative to the location since the reservation was early? Or would I wait another year to receive it?


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## TrevP (Oct 20, 2015)

It all depends on their production capability and backlog situation. You probably wouldn't have to wait a year but certainly wouldn't get it at the same time. 

Keep in mind they've also stated that highly optioned cars will be made first, this has always been the case, and that deliveries start on the west coast and will move eastwards as they move through the backlog. 

Even though I figure in within the first 18,000 or so outside of Tesla and SpaceX to have put down a deposit I'm not expecting ours until mid 2018 due to being in Canada.


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## Blackout (Apr 24, 2016)

TrevP said:


> It all depends on their production capability and backlog situation. You probably wouldn't have to wait a year but certainly wouldn't get it at the same time.
> 
> Keep in mind they've also stated that highly optioned cars will be made first, this has always been the case, and that deliveries start on the west coast and will move eastwards as they move through the backlog.
> 
> Even though I figure in within the first 18,000 or so outside of Tesla and SpaceX to have put down a deposit I'm not expecting ours until mid 2018 due to being in Canada.


Yah me too I expect to receive mine between April and July Aug 2018...Let's hope by Christmas 2018 they'll upload the autonomous mode in Beta lol...wishful thinking...


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## BigBri (Jul 16, 2016)

I didn't realize the more options the quicker delivery might be.. if the province does put that no tax thing in place I could be tempted!

At times I feel like I'm the only one not super excited by autonomous driving. I love the idea of it sort of running in the background to prevent accidents or braking before hitting something/someone but I also really like driving. I'll probably pay the extra but not use it a whole lot unless its a lengthy cruise control scenario.


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## Paul Spiers (Apr 11, 2016)

Brian_North said:


> I didn't realize the more options the quicker delivery might be.. if the province does put that no tax thing in place I could be tempted!
> 
> At times I feel like I'm the only one not super excited by autonomous driving. I love the idea of it sort of running in the background to prevent accidents or braking before hitting something/someone but I also really like driving. I'll probably pay the extra but not use it a whole lot unless its a lengthy cruise control scenario.


You could wait to purchase this option until a later date, since the M3 will have the hardware included. It is only a software upgrade. I believe it will still have some of the safety features like warnings and such. It will be at least between 5-10 years before the State or in our case Provincial governments will approve full autonomous driving. I think that there will still be some limitations as to the capability of Auotopilot due to old non autonomous cars and trucks that will be on the road for another 10 to 15 years or more.


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## BigBri (Jul 16, 2016)

Paul Spiers said:


> You could wait to purchase this option until a later date, since the M3 will have the hardware included. It is only a software upgrade. I believe it will still have some of the safety features like warnings and such. It will be at least between 5-10 years before the State or in our case Provincial governments will approve full autonomous driving. I think that there will still be some limitations as to the capability of Auotopilot due to old non autonomous cars and trucks that will be on the road for another 10 to 15 years or more.


Yeah exactly. Just might do that. It depends what the deal with Ontario's incentives end up being. They're working on you pay no tax on the purchase price of the car so it might make sense to get it right out of the gate. Elon mentioned they need like 6b~ miles driven on autopilot to get to full autonomy so chances are we won't see that until there are 500k M3s on the road.


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## MelindaV (Apr 2, 2016)

TrevP said:


> Keep in mind they've also stated that highly optioned cars will be made first, this has always been the case, and that deliveries start on the west coast and will move eastwards as they move through the backlog.


There is great debate on TMC if the highly optioned will in fact be a priority for the Model 3. Users on both sides of the argument claim Tesla/EM have been quoted saying one way or the other. And most likely both sides' claims are true.

Those on the side of options not being a priority have a point in Tesla not wanting to appear that their $35k car in reality costs $55k to the average buyer. Those on the options do get you higher in the line have a point that this is what Tesla has done for the past launches and it brings in cash quicker.
I would recommend buying the options you truly want and where that lands you in the line is where it lands you. Until we start to see invites to configure and the first cars delivered, we will not know what sort of priorities (beyond the staff/owners within regions that has been stated) tesla will put on deliveries.


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## Dan Detweiler (Apr 8, 2016)

MelindaV said:


> There is great debate on TMC if the highly optioned will in fact be a priority for the Model 3. Users on both sides of the argument claim Tesla/EM have been quoted saying one way or the other. And most likely both sides' claims are true.
> 
> Those on the side of options not being a priority have a point in Tesla not wanting to appear that their $35k car in reality costs $55k to the average buyer. Those on the options do get you higher in the line have a point that this is what Tesla has done for the past launches and it brings in cash quicker.
> I would recommend buying the options you truly want and where that lands you in the line is where it lands you. Until we start to see invites to configure and the first cars delivered, we will not know what sort of priorities (beyond the staff/owners within regions that has been stated) tesla will put on deliveries.


Whoa now, this makes entirely too much sense. What's the world coming to if we start using logic to form opinions?! 

Dan


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## BigBri (Jul 16, 2016)

MelindaV said:


> There is great debate on TMC if the highly optioned will in fact be a priority for the Model 3. Users on both sides of the argument claim Tesla/EM have been quoted saying one way or the other. And most likely both sides' claims are true.
> 
> Those on the side of options not being a priority have a point in Tesla not wanting to appear that their $35k car in reality costs $55k to the average buyer. Those on the options do get you higher in the line have a point that this is what Tesla has done for the past launches and it brings in cash quicker.
> I would recommend buying the options you truly want and where that lands you in the line is where it lands you. Until we start to see invites to configure and the first cars delivered, we will not know what sort of priorities (beyond the staff/owners within regions that has been stated) tesla will put on deliveries.


Yeah totally agree. I do think it makes more sense for them to deliver highly optioned cars quicker as in essence there is more to go wrong. If they do start deliveries near their factory it totally makes sense to get the cars with the most moving parts out there accumulating miles and sorting out any repairs/engineering changes that need to be made.

As antsy as I am to get the M3 I'm also fine with not being the 'beta tester' of the car. Getting a reliable car that will need some work from time to time is ideal as the nearest Tesla centre is 3.5 hours from me.


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## TrevP (Oct 20, 2015)

I'm just going on what Elon said in a previous earnings call that they would build higher optioned cars first to help repay R&D and tooling.


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## Skione65 (Apr 4, 2016)

Autopilot 2.0......Level 3 autonomous driving....Can't wait to see this in the 3 

https://electrek.co/2016/08/11/tesla-autopilot-2-0-next-gen-radar-triple-camera-production/

Ski


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