# Officially Beating The Dead Horse! [Dual motor]



## Dan Detweiler (Apr 8, 2016)

OK, OK, I know it has been discussed before, but...

The first sightings of dual motor cars has me really re-thinking my "first available" decision. I am not set to get a configuration invite until July at the earliest. Chances seem fairly good that dual motor versions might be available at that point. So...all you model S owners, how much is the added efficiency, range, and acceleration worth? (The added traction would really just be a free unnecessary bonus living in Georgia.) 3 grand? 5? If it is packaged with SAS that adds another layer to the value puzzle.

I know all too well that everyone is different, but I am thinking if I can get it for 5K or less (especially if it is packaged with SAS) I will probably pull the trigger.

Thoughts?

Dan


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## pjfw8 (Apr 28, 2016)

Dan Detweiler said:


> OK, OK, I know it has been discussed before, but...
> 
> The first sightings of dual motor cars has me really re-thinking my "first available" decision. I am not set to get a configuration invite until July at the earliest. Chances seem fairly good that dual motor versions might be available at that point. So...all you model S owners, how much is the added efficiency, range, and acceleration worth? (The added traction would really just be a free unnecessary bonus living in Georgia.) 3 grand? 5? If it is packaged with SAS that adds another layer to the value puzzle.
> 
> ...


Dan, I have had many AWD cars and their RWD or FWD variant. Audi, VW, Mercedes, Subaru and Toyota. AWD was always superior. Obviously better in rain and snow, but superior in all driving situations. I am holding out for AWD and probably SAS. RWD is fine, but AWD is better.


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## AEDennis (Apr 10, 2016)

All our Teslas... (with the exception of the Powerwall, and inclusive of the Radio Flyer S) are currenly RWD... But I live in Southern California where there is no real "need" for AWD. That being said, my better half is waiting for AWD and Smaller Battery for her 3...


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## Dan Detweiler (Apr 8, 2016)

AEDennis said:


> All our Teslas... (with the exception of the Powerwall, and inclusive of the Radio Flyer S) are currenly RWD... But I live in Southern California where there is no real "need" for AWD. That being said, my better half is waiting for AWD and Smaller Battery for her 3...


Yeah, I am in that boat too. Living in Atlanta there isn't much weather related need for AWD either. But there are other benefits like efficiency, range, etc. right?

Dan


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## TrevP (Oct 20, 2015)

Dan Detweiler said:


> Yeah, I am in that boat too. Living in Atlanta there isn't much weather related need for AWD either. But there are other benefits like efficiency, range, etc. right?
> 
> Dan


If it's anything like Model S probably only 5% more range


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## John (Apr 16, 2016)

Here are some articles on this:
https://www.edmunds.com/car-buying/do-you-need-an-all-wheel-drive-or-four-wheel-drive-car.html
https://www.consumerreports.org/cro/magazine/2015/09/do-you-really-need-awd-in-the-snow/index.htm
https://www.popularmechanics.com/cars/a3091/the-myth-of-the-all-powerful-all-wheel-drive-15202862/

A few points I found most interesting:

1. Unless the car has torque vectoring (can fully direct torque smartly enough), AWD is not much of a handling aid. I read an article once by a race car driver who said, "If you are driving at the limits where 'good' AWD would help your handling, you should stop driving like that on public roads." I don't know exactly how well Tesla implements torque vectoring. I would like to think it would, but I dunno. I know that "cheap" AWD is only even doing anything rarely in normal driving.

2. AWD doesn't help during breaking in poor traction conditions (did you see the recent video of the AWD Tesla sliding out of control down a street this winter?) AWD is more of an acceleration aid.

3. They advise "Don't buy a 10% car." (A car whose features you only use occasionally.) I'd probably say 1-5%. You have to ask yourself how many cars you could rent for a couple of days to cover rare circumstances.

4. Focus on good tires. Your first winter choice should be winter tires, not AWD. You're better off with RWD and winter tires than AWD and all season tires. The forums are chock full of this advice. Non-winter tires get very hard and lose traction in very cold weather. You need tires that are soft and compliant when very cold. Here's an article that links to the video about recent tests in snow of the Model 3:
https://www.autoevolution.com/news/...-shows-its-tc-system-is-up-for-it-122591.html

That having been said, I think AWD always _sounds _like it's got to help ("More"s Law?) and as long as you're spending $55K many people may say, "Why not-throw on another $5K. I may need it occasionally. And I loves me some more cowbell."

I'm not sure about the regeneration benefits of AWD, though that's widely debated as well. Maybe it would help if:

1. You're slowing past the the limits of RWD traction (though, that's pretty much emergency breaking which you have brakes for, it's the reverse of a max acceleration)
2. You're slowing at the electrical current limits of the reverse path of the drive electronics (though, again, those are beefy enough to work during max acceleration, and there's not reason to think the reverse path is any weaker than the forward path).

But AWD won't help regen at the limits of battery current or condition (if battery is already limited in RWD, having AWD won't help).

TLDR (too late, I know): if you live in an area with lots of snow and lightly-maintained country roads, go for it (along with winter tires). But even there it's not like you can't get by with RWD and winter tires on normal plowed roads. "All the best AWD will still get beat by a good set of snow tires."


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## Dan Detweiler (Apr 8, 2016)

Any guesses as to increased acceleration? Maybe a half second off the 0-60 time?

Dan


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## Bokonon (Apr 13, 2017)

Dan Detweiler said:


> Any guesses as to increased acceleration? Maybe a half second off the 0-60 time?


I'd expect it to be somewhere between 4.2 and 4.4 in the real world, but Tesla will probably sandbag the "official" time to 4.5 - 4.6 to keep some room between the Model 3 LRD and Model S 75D.

Likewise, range will probably increase by about 10-15 miles, but again, Tesla may voluntarily instruct the EPA to lower the rated range to 315 (or even the same 310) to keep some breathing room between the Model 3 LRD and Model S 100D.


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## John (Apr 16, 2016)

Dan Detweiler said:


> Any guesses as to increased acceleration? Maybe a half second off the 0-60 time?
> Dan


You have to guess at how they will implement it.

But I'm not scared. Here's my guess. Let's assume current 0-60 is *4.8s*, and that they regulate current as they do now.

1. The CAD drawings show a front motor that is 2/3 the physical length of the current rear. Not to say the specs are exactly proportional to exterior dimensions, but let's assume they roughly are. There is not room up front for the current full sized rear motor.

2. You have to assume whether they will do a D and then a P version with separate motor configs. Let's assume they do.
a. D version = 2/3 up front, 2/3 in rear = 1.33 the torque. 0-60 = 4.8/1.33 = *3.6s*
b. P version = 2/3 up front, 1 in rear = 1.67 the torque. 0-60 - 4.8/1.67 = *2.9s*

However, all of this is controllable by Tesla, and there's good reason to think-for reasons of reliability-that they are doing a fair amount of it now. So if that 2/3 motor can't really handle the same kind of loading as the current motor, it might be, say, a 55% motor (0-60 thus *4.4s* for D, and *3.1s* for P). But really, if they wanted to, they could make these whatever they want within a pretty wide range.

I DON'T tend to put much stock in Tesla hobbling Model 3 for the sake of Model S and Model X, once they can make a decent number of Model 3s. A Ludi Model 3 (make a guess, $80K?) is a very profitable car, and a company that doesn't cannibalize itself is just encouraging someone else to do it. Especially if your goal is to get as many cars out there as possible.


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## m3_4_wifey (Jul 26, 2016)

Adding AWD drive is so much cheaper to do on an electric car than it is in an ICE. Seems like a small up tick in price for what usually would be a 10k adder. I think over time all EV's will be AWD. It gives you twice the regen breaking and with powerful accelerations probably evens out the wear between the back and front. The other benefit is that if one motor fails, you can probably limp to your destination and then call for service. That was one of the selling points of the Tesla Semi.


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## m3_4_wifey (Jul 26, 2016)

Perhaps if you are thinking about saving money on tires. With AWD could you go with a harder tire that warranty's more miles, and not notice the wheels slipping too much?


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## John (Apr 16, 2016)

m3_4_wifey said:


> Perhaps if you are thinking about saving money on tires. With AWD could you go with a harder tire that warranty's more miles, and not notice the wheels slipping too much?


Don't forget that when you swap tires, you save miles on each set while the other set is being used.

I should let folks closer to the arctic circle than I am weigh in. We don't really have weather here in California, except when we drive to the mountains to go skiing. You can guess how that turns out usually.

I also grew up in South Carolina, and a typical scene when there was a rare snow storm goes something like this:

"Hey, y'all-why is everybody parked in the field at the intersection up ahead? OH NO, WE'RE SLIDING INTO THEM!!!"


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## Michael Russo (Oct 15, 2016)

John said:


> Don't forget that when you swap tires, you save miles on each set while the other set is being used.
> 
> I should let folks closer to the arctic circle than I am weigh in. We don't really have weather here in California, except when we drive to the mountains to go skiing. You can guess how that turns out usually.
> 
> ...


Love what you said in your earlier post:


John said:


> (...)
> 4. Focus on good tires. Your first winter choice should be winter tires, not AWD. You're better off with RWD and winter tires than AWD and all season tires. (..)
> That having been said, I think AWD always _sounds _like it's got to help ("More"s Law?) and as long as you're spending $55K many people may say, "Why not-throw on another $5K. I may need it occasionally. And I loves me some more cowbell."
> (...)But even there it's not like you can't get by with RWD and winter tires on normal plowed roads. "All the best AWD will still get beat by a good set of snow tires."


Though not quite up by the artic circle here in Belgium (for 7 more weeks...), I can attest to driving RWD Beemers with good winter tires (always better to call as such rather than 'snow' tires when you remember they are advised on _any_ road surface under 7deg.C/45deg.F) _without any problems for years_ during the November thru March period (snow or not).

Now, if you are really in the Northeast or in Canada, winter tires _*and*_ AWD are likely to always be a plus.

To Dan's earlier point in his OP, this point has been made repeatedly in several other threads before.

IMHO, if you live in the Southern part of the US, whether East or West - or Europe for that matter - I would not get AWD merely for the barely faster 0-60 time... If lowest 0-60 matters to you, then I feel like you really want to wait for the P version of Model 3, and be prepared to add the significant chunk of change that unlocks that performance! 

My 5 cents on the dead horse. May he RIP.


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## Dan Detweiler (Apr 8, 2016)

Michael Russo said:


> Love what you said in your earlier post:
> 
> Though not quite up by the artic circle here in Belgium (for 7 more weeks...), I can attest to driving RWD Beemers with good winter tires (always better to call as such rather than 'snow' tires when you remember they are advised on _any_ road surface under 7deg.C/45deg.F) _without any problems for years_ during the November thru March period (snow or not).
> 
> ...


May be a moot point anyway for me since both AWD and SAS may not be available when I configure...and I am NOT going to wait (I don't think). 

Dan


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## Michael Russo (Oct 15, 2016)

Dan Detweiler said:


> (...°...and I am NOT going to wait (...).
> 
> Dan


That's the spirit... be DAUNTLESS...!!! (watch thru the end... )


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## Dan Detweiler (Apr 8, 2016)

The wind of heaven may be that which blows between a horse's ears, but the wind of my life is too often the wind that comes out of a horse's a**!

LOL!

Dan


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## Michael Russo (Oct 15, 2016)

Dan Detweiler said:


> The wind of heaven may be that which blows between a horse's ears, but the wind of my life is too often the wind that comes out of a horse's a**!
> LOL!
> 
> Dan


Truly sad this is all this very poetic & symbolic video inspires you...


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## Dan Detweiler (Apr 8, 2016)

Michael Russo said:


> Truly sad this is all this very poetic & symbolic video inspires you...


No, that's not the only thing. I did appreciate the lovely young lady's treble clef tattoo on her left shoulder.

Yeah, how many people were looking at her tattoo? Come on, admit it. 

Dan


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## Dan Detweiler (Apr 8, 2016)

Michael Russo said:


> That's the spirit... be DAUNTLESS...!!! (watch thru the end... )


Oh, and talk about off topic...the horse isn't even dead for God's sake! Let's try to stay on topic here or I might have to report it to a moderator...oh, wait...

Dan


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## Michael Russo (Oct 15, 2016)

Dan Detweiler said:


> Oh, and talk about off topic...the horse isn't even dead for God's sake! Let's try to stay on topic here or I might have to report it to a moderator...oh, wait...
> 
> Dan


Well, I beg to differ, that choice of a very lively, _dauntless_ horse was totally deliberate, in the spirit of progress, moving on resolutely etc... Plus I really would have found a picture, let alone a video of a dead horse being beaten particularly depressing... 

Don't worry about mods... I'll take the heat...


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## Dan Detweiler (Apr 8, 2016)

Michael Russo said:


> Well, I beg to differ, that choice of a very lively, _dauntless_ horse was totally deliberate, in the spirit of progress, moving on resolutely etc... Plus I really would have found a picture, let alone a video of a dead horse being beaten particularly depressing...
> 
> Don't worry about mods... I'll take the heat...


Well, she...I mean the horse, certainly was lively! LOL!

Dan


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## TheTony (Jan 20, 2018)

Michael Russo said:


> Now, if you are really in the Northeast or in Canada, winter tires _*and*_ AWD are likely to always be a plus.


Perhaps yes, but I think John hit the nail on the head in that its importance tends to be over-inflated (pun intended). If you live in an area with cold/snow and are justifying it as a reason to get AWD, at least look at whether you're willing to purchase snow tires. If not, you can probably do without AWD. I won't discourage people from AWD - it's just that you should almost always spend the money on the tires first.


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## Michael Russo (Oct 15, 2016)

Totally with you, @TheTony . 
That was actually precisely the point I made earlier in the post you quoted and why I was referencing my excellent experience with winter tires on (RWD) BMWs...

Actually, when I had a 325is Coupe in Akron, OH, back in 1995, I learned my lesson _very_ quickly when, after the first snow, I could not even leave the parking lot at the office... Winter tires were on the next day and I never had a problem afterwards!


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## viperd (Feb 17, 2017)

Let’s say that Tesla does start selling/installing trailer hitches, how beneficial would AWD be on gravelly roads while a trailer is attached?

Edit: I would be towing an 18’ kayak that weighs 200-300 pounds and the trailer would be around 100 pounds.


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## PNWmisty (Aug 19, 2017)

m3_4_wifey said:


> Perhaps if you are thinking about saving money on tires. With AWD could you go with a harder tire that warranty's more miles, and not notice the wheels slipping too much?


That's not good reasoning. The most important function of good tire grip for a car primarily used for transportation is safety. That entails straight line braking capability and corner traction for accident avoidance manuevers. 
AWD does nothing for those two functions so it wouldn't be productive to substitute more slippery tires thinking that AWD somehow compensated and made it just as safe.


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## PNWmisty (Aug 19, 2017)

viperd said:


> Let's say that Tesla does start selling/installing trailer hitches, how beneficial would AWD be on gravelly roads while a trailer is attached?
> 
> Edit: I would be towing an 18' kayak that weighs 200-300 pounds and the trailer would be around 100 pounds.


Since the Model 3 is RWD the tongue weight adds traction to the drive wheels. At 18' long, I'm guessing that Kayak is an ocean kayak and you won't be towing it on anything too difficult (vs. where a whitewater kayak might need to go).
I'm not anti-AWD (I currently have an AWD and a 4x4) but the utility of AWD is typically greatly over-rated. This is coming from someone who regularly travels on backcountry mountain roads in all seasons and weather conditions. However, on a BEV, AWD comes with less downside cost (less weight added and economy stays the same or goes up slightly vs. an ICE vehicle in which AWD significantly lowers your MPG (not to mention range per tank).
Bottom line with AWD BEV's, if you have money to burn it's not a bad thing but, if you get it without AWD, you probably won't regret it (or even notice that it's missing).


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## viperd (Feb 17, 2017)

PNWmisty said:


> Since the Model 3 is RWD the tongue weight adds traction to the drive wheels. At 18' long, I'm guessing that Kayak is an ocean kayak and you won't be towing it on anything too difficult (vs. where a whitewater kayak might need to go).
> I'm not anti-AWD (I currently have an AWD and a 4x4) but the utility of AWD is typically greatly over-rated. This is coming from someone who regularly travels on backcountry mountain roads in all seasons and weather conditions. However, on a BEV, AWD comes with less downside cost (less weight added and economy stays the same or goes up slightly vs. an ICE vehicle in which AWD significantly lowers your MPG (not to mention range per tank).
> Bottom line with AWD BEV's, if you have money to burn it's not a bad thing but, if you get it without AWD, you probably won't regret it (or even notice that it's missing).


The kayak is a Hobie Adventure Island. I use it on lakes around Dallas/Fort Worth. I want to be able to load/unload the kayak on a lake like people do with actual motor boats.

I guess if the RWD does well in winter conditions, it would handle slippery mossy rock just fine.


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## PNWmisty (Aug 19, 2017)

viperd said:


> The kayak is a Hobie Adventure Island. I use it on lakes around Dallas/Fort Worth. I want to be able to load/unload the kayak on a lake like people do with actual motor boats.
> 
> I guess if the RWD does well in winter conditions, it would handle slippery mossy rock just fine.


It depends how steep it is but for typical boat ramps, I wouldn't expect a problem with RWD. You have to remember, many of those same boat ramps were used to launch and retrieve boats a lot bigger than a kayak for many decades before AWD/4WD was in wide use.


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## martsishor (Apr 28, 2018)

Dan Detweiler said:


> No, that's not the only thing. I did appreciate the lovely young lady's treble clef tattoo on her left shoulder.
> 
> Yeah, how many people were looking at her tattoo? Come on, admit it.
> 
> Dan


What tattoo?


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## Dan Detweiler (Apr 8, 2016)

martsishor said:


> What tattoo?


0:35


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