# Keep Trying to love my M3



## Thor

I keep trying to love our Model 3 (dual motor, long range battery) but reality keeps intruding. The latest problem is the poor performance of the AWD in the snow. My wife parked last night in front of her friend's garage. She was on a very slight downgrade and there was about 3" of snow. When she tried to leave all 4 tires just spun uselessly and she couldn't move at all. When I arrived to help I put it in non-slip mode and tried again but it would do nothing. Rear tires are brand new (after only 13K miles, another problem) and the front have uneven wear but still significant tread depth over most of the tire. It was getting late so we left the car and planned to call roadside assistance in the morning. When we called roadside assistance they informed us that they don't provide roadside assistance. Happiness just keeps increasing. So we went to the car and found that overnight the snow under the tires had melted and we were able to drive it away. 

Two lessons:

1. In the future, if I am in a situation that looks like it will require AWD I will put the car in non-slip mode before attempting to move it. I believe that the initial slipping and spinning of the tires compacted the snow and turned it to ice so a slow, steady start is probably the way to get out of a potentially slippery location. I am puzzled, frustrated, and appalled that a car with so much weight positioned low and in the center of the car, and computer controlled traction using electric motors isn't much better at getting traction. I would have thought that even the rear wheel drive models would be great in the snow but now I'm hesitant to drive even our AWD unless the roads are dry.
2. Don't rely on Tesla roadside assistance. Probably best to sign up for AAA or some other 3rd party service. I get the impression that there is a significant weasel factor in the roadside assistance package.


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## garsh

Thor said:


> The latest problem is the poor performance of the AWD in the snow.


It's the tires, not the car. If you want good performance in snow, then get a set of snow tires. Don't expect all-season tires to handle snow well.



Thor said:


> I will put the car in non-slip mode


Slip-start mode should always be off. Slip-start is only useful in a few specific conditions.

The best thing you can do is to put the car in "chill" mode and set regen to low. EVs create a lot of torque, and you generally don't want a lot of torque in slippery conditions.


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## Klaus-rf

What tyres are installed?


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## Ct200h

Winter tires would likely have eliminated the traction issues . I’m guessing in your area it’s pretty common to fit winter tires. I’ve fitted them on FWD , RWD and AWD vehicles and they do th trick every time .


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## Thor

I hear you, but living in Salt Lake City I have a lot of experience with all-season tires and they have always performed better than this. The Lexus we had before the M3 never gave us a problem like this. My Ford Expedition does just fine going to and from the area ski resorts with all season tires. And neither of these cars have the advantage of a lot of weight down low and near instantaneous traction control.

Also, I wasn't advocating driving around in Slip-start mode, just suggesting that it be set if you are in a situation where you are concerned that the tires will break loose from a dead start. You are right that the torque from an electric vehicle is substantial and could be counter productive from a dead start.


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## Jay79

M3 is the best Winter car I've ever had, I also live in Michigan. Michelin X-Ice mounted on Tsportline 18's got me through an entire winter with excellent stability and stop performance. Give them a try, you'll be surprised


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## tencate

Jay79 said:


> M3 is the best Winter car I've ever had, I also live in Michigan. Michelin X-Ice mounted on Tsportline 18's got me through an entire winter with excellent stability and stop performance. Give them a try, you'll be surprised


I'll second that. Living in the mountains of NM we get our share of snow here too. First winter I tried getting around with the factory All Season tires and decided to go with snow tires for the next season, they were pretty crappy in snow. Just as an FYI, there are times here that a Subaru Forester (we have 2 different Generations of that car in the family) gets stuck trying to get uphill at a friends house with All Season. It just spins, both the auto and manual transmission cars do that. The Tesla climbed up it with ease eariier with Michelin X-ice. Go figure. And I've just got RWD too.


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## garsh

Thor said:


> I hear you, but living in Salt Lake City I have a lot of experience with all-season tires and they have always performed better than this.


Also keep in mind that not all all-season tires are created equal. The ones that they put on EVs are usually geared towards low rolling resistance.

Again, don't blame the car. Blame the tires. *Any* car can be good in snow if fitted with decent snow tires.


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## JasonF

The tires that come with the Model 3 are very loosely "all season". Even the wet road traction on them isn't particularly great, so I wouldn't expect them to do well in snow at all. I would probably classify them as slightly better than summer tires. That's not Tesla's fault though, they just took bids from tire manufacturers in a hurry to meet a certain spec, and they probably knew as little about them as we did.

Also, 13,000 miles is typical for any manufacturer supplied tires. They usually buy softer than normal tires so they sound better with the new car, and because they resist flat spots when unsold cars don't move for long periods of time.


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## Frully

Adding a data point - in chilly canuckistan, it was -20c today, with 1-6" of fluffy and/or compacted snow everywhere. Everywhere else is black ice. 
This car, with winter tires, is a mountain goat. Nimble, powerful, quick to start, and quick to stop. 

I don't want to speak out of turn...but I think your tires are the issue.


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## Zek

I like to run my tires at a lower PSI in snowy conditions it helps ever so slightly. And before garsh moves my comment to off topic, no I don't have a desertion to prove that lower PSI helps just years of driving stick with rwd. AWD is a must if you want more traction from the start, wont help you stop. Winter tires is the best way togo but you can get away with good set of DWS all season if you're very careful.


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## bwilson4web

Living in Dixie, we seldom have snow. Just curious if a bag of mixed sand and ammonium nitrate could be used to get initial traction?

Bob Wilson


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## Zek

bwilson4web said:


> Living in Dixie, we seldom have snow. Just curious if a bag of mixed sand and ammonium nitrate could be used to get initial traction?
> 
> Bob Wilson


If you have very little snow, you should be ok with a good set of all season tires. I used to run DWS at lower psi on my rwd stick. Did ok in the light to medium snow.
https://m.tirerack.com/tires/tires....odel 3&autoModClar=Dual Motor All-Wheel Drive
The key is "good tires" DWS has possibly the best snow traction out of all season tires.


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## Ed Woodrick

If ALL 4 tires are spinning, then the car has slid up onto a snow bank. It's been lifted off the ground.
Put any vehicle with any tires up on a lift and it won't move


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## Zek

Conti DWS 06 is the best all season tire I personally used in the snow on a rear wheel drive car. They will be louder initially but thats the price for running one tire all year long. DWS stands for Dry, Wet and Snow - they have 3 different compounds build into the tire with a wear marker for each. Snow marker will wear out first after about 2-3 years. 
https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/continental-ec-dws06-255-40-r18-tires-on-rwd-m3.140106/


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## Thor

I think that after all the replies, I am convinced that the issue is the tires. I am currently trading off a Hancook (sp?) vs the Michelin Ice-X. The Michelins cost about $300 more but have a 40K tread wear guarantee. Since the M3 (and I am told all Teslas) eats tires, I am guessing that I will be lucky to get much more than 20K miles from a set of tires. If that is the case the Michelins would be more cost-effective. Anyone have experience with either regarding both traction and tread wear?


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## Thor

Ed Woodrick said:


> If ALL 4 tires are spinning, then the car has slid up onto a snow bank. It's been lifted off the ground.
> Put any vehicle with any tires up on a lift and it won't move


Also, the car had not slid up on a snowbank. I know the concept of high centering a car and that wasn't the problem. It was most likely the combination of the poor performance of the Michelin Primacy tires in the snow and the fact that the quick and massive torque of the electric motors caused the snow under the tires to melt and ice up. There was only 2-3 inches of snow on an almost flat asphalt surface. As I said above, at least with these tires, the key is to use the slip-track mode to get the car rolling when in these conditions. Hopefully with some good snow tires it won't be an issue again.


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## garsh

Thor said:


> Since the M3 (and I am told all Teslas) eats tires, I am guessing that I will be lucky to get much more than 20K miles from a set of tires.


It really depends on driving style. If you like to take advantage of the exceptional acceleration, then the tires won't last long. If you're somehow able to restrain yourself, you'll do better.


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## Thor

I have found in talking to Discount Tires that Teslas are their favorite cars - they get to sell lots of tires


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## garsh

@Thor, do you have the 18" or 19" wheels?

The 19" wheels come with *Continental ProContact RX* tires.
Tire Rack link.
They don't yet have enough consumer feedback on these to display ratings.
There is a single individual reviews that complains about these tires in snow:

_For all season tires they cant handle any snow what so ever (Note: these tires came with the car). Already got into an accident once because they couldn't stop in time when there was barely any snow on the road_

The 18" wheels come with *Michelin Primacy MXM4* tires.
The individual reviews are mixed on performance in the snow.

_They actually do a little better in snow than rain, in my limited experience with them in snow._
_To be sure - these were quiet, smooth, and offered great wet / dry / snow /ice handling._
_Tires are poor in rain or snow._
_When winter hit, my tires were already at least half worn, so snow traction wasn't the best._
_In the snow, even deep stuff, I have all the confidence in the world to get where I'm going._
_Extremely poor ice and very poor snow traction._
The results of consumer surveys performed by Tire Rack:


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## MelindaV

Thor said:


> I think that after all the replies, I am convinced that the issue is the tires. I am currently trading off a Hancook (sp?) vs the Michelin Ice-X. The Michelins cost about $300 more but have a 40K tread wear guarantee. Since the M3 (and I am told all Teslas) eats tires, I am guessing that I will be lucky to get much more than 20K miles from a set of tires. If that is the case the Michelins would be more cost-effective. Anyone have experience with either regarding both traction and tread wear?


here are a few of the winter tire threads with tons of impressions of the various options
https://teslaownersonline.com/threads/winter-tire-discussion.9480/
https://teslaownersonline.com/threads/poll-winter-tires.8710/
https://teslaownersonline.com/threa...mance-model-3-with-performance-upgrades.9016/
https://teslaownersonline.com/threads/what-are-the-best-18-winter-tires-for-the-model-3.14298/


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## Needsdecaf

Zak said:


> If you have very little snow, you should be ok with a good set of all season tires. I used to run DWS at lower psi on my rwd stick. Did ok in the light to medium snow.
> https://m.tirerack.com/tires/tires.jsp?tireMake=Continental&tireModel=ExtremeContact+DWS+06&partnum=345YR8DWS06XL&vehicleSearch=true&fromCompare1=yes&autoMake=Tesla&autoYear=2018&autoModel=Model 3&autoModClar=Dual Motor All-Wheel Drive
> The key is "good tires" DWS has possibly the best snow traction out of all season tires.


These tires are EXCELLENT.

Have not tried on Model 3 as mine aren't shot yet but have had on multiple vehicles. Will be going on the Model 3 when the need arises.

Edit: Wanted to relate more of my experiences with them. My initial install was on my Volvo V70R as the preceeding model, forget what it was called. I've had at least two sets on that car, plus on my RWD BMW 535 as the ExtremeContact DWS. That car did very well in moderate snow in Virginia, even as a RWD car. Have also had the DWS and the DWS 06 on my wife's Cayenne and they are fantastic all around in Texas for quiet, good handling performance, and excellent in deep water. Also installed the DWS 06's on my 2017 GTI and that was night and day vs. the stock All Seasons that came on the car.

You can tell I have a thing for this tire. But they just work.


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## Thor

I have the 18" with the Michelin Primacy. Rear are new (after only 13K miles) and the front are better but with uneven wear.


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## kpedraja

Jay79 said:


> M3 is the best Winter car I've ever had, I also live in Michigan. Michelin X-Ice mounted on Tsportline 18's got me through an entire winter with excellent stability and stop performance. Give them a try, you'll be surprised


What pressure are you running the X-ices at? I just had some installed yesterday.


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## iChris93

Thor said:


> I have the 18" with the Michelin Primacy. Rear are new (after only 13K miles) and the front are better but with uneven wear.


Rotate.


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## Jay79

kpedraja said:


> What pressure are you running the X-ices at? I just had some installed yesterday.


42 all year round unless i'm going on a road trip then 45 for extra range


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## Needsdecaf

iChris93 said:


> Rotate.


Uneven wear would indicate either improper pressures or a alignment is off.


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## Ed Woodrick

Thor said:


> I have found in talking to Discount Tires that Teslas are their favorite cars - they get to sell lots of tires


Just put 28,000 miles on a set and could have gone some more.


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## iChris93

Needsdecaf said:


> Uneven wear would indicate either improper pressures or a alignment is off.


Sure. Uneven front to back though can be corrected by rotating.


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## FRC

Ed Woodrick said:


> Just put 28,000 miles on a set and could have gone some more.


Similar results for me too. However, I would typically get 40-50,000 with my previous cars. Hard to argue that tires are not an area of added expense for Tesla ownership. I think physics makes this unavoidable. Thankfully, this may be the only area of Tesla maintenance that is more expensive than our counterparts.


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## MachV

winter tires will give you 3x better grip than the all season factory (summer) tires.

My un-scientific polling indicates the factory tires will go 30k+ miles and you may not even need to rotate them. AWD cars would require rotation less than RWD. The Teslas have quite good traction control so they will wear evenly unless something is not aligned correctly. if you go through tires in 13k, something is VERY wrong. this is not normal


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## StromTrooperM3

MachV said:


> AWD cars would require rotation less than RWD. The Teslas have quite good traction control so they will wear evenly unless something is not aligned correctly


This I have to disagree with. For the first few months I absolutely enjoyed launching from every stop light and drove the car hard. I rotated my tires at 2500 miles because the wear was visually that significant, even with the AWD system.

All depends on driving style, but the rears definitely take more abuse due to weight transfer and the rear bias


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## JasonF

MachV said:


> My un-scientific polling indicates the factory tires will go 30k+ miles and you may not even need to rotate them. AWD cars would require rotation less than RWD. The Teslas have quite good traction control so they will wear evenly unless something is not aligned correctly. if you go through tires in 13k, something is VERY wrong. this is not normal


The factory Michelins on my 2018 RWD model had to be replaced at about 12,000 miles. I don't do any racing or burnouts with it, I rotated them every 6 months, and my work commute is on city streets. Though they had 3 months' tread left, the Firestone store gave me 1 out of 4 tires free, so I went for it - however, I did notice they were starting to have difficulty keeping traction in the rain. So it really depends on the exact model of tire - these Michelins were only "A" rated for treadwear.

I would think that AWD would actually need rotation _more_ than a RWD, because of the way the torque is applied unevenly between the front and rear motors.


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## Needsdecaf

I had 37k on my factory 19” Conti all seasons. They still had a few mm of tread above the wear bars.

That was a LOT of highway driving.


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