# Electrical Upgrade Today Pt. 1



## Sandy (Jun 3, 2017)

I know many have done this already but it's always good to check out different installs. Upgraded service from a 100amp panel to a 200amp panel. For a car charger and future shop in utility room. Already had a 200amp buried service to the meter but only 100amp into the house. They also ran 80' of #6/3awg Teck armour cable from the basement to between the garage doors at the front. Installed a Nema 14-50 for now. Tesla wall charger upgrade when I get the car.

Before:















During:


----------



## Sandy (Jun 3, 2017)

2 posts required as a single post is limited to # of pics. 2 guys. 7:30 am to 4:30pm. Always great to run across skilled craftsman who ae as OCD as you are....! Now all I need is a Model 3....

After:


----------



## SoFlaModel3 (Apr 15, 2017)

Nicely done!


----------



## Brett (Aug 1, 2017)

Looks nice... but isn't that one crossover going to drive you nuts!


----------



## Sandy (Jun 3, 2017)

Brett said:


> Looks nice... but isn't that one crossover going to drive you nuts!
> 
> View attachment 3589


It took me most of the night and today but I think I'm almost getting near to the point where I'm starting to consider thinking about whether or not there's a chance that with some serious thought involved and possibly a little counselling I could box it in and keep the door closed.
That or completely disconnect the 40 amp stove circuit involved, remove the wire and as our ancestors did, cook over an open fire.
I guess they didn't see me yesterday as I ran down the road behind their truck screaming for them to come back and fix it.


----------



## garsh (Apr 4, 2016)

Sandy said:


> That or completely disconnect the 40 amp stove circuit involved, remove the wire and as our ancestors did, cook over an open fire.
> I guess they didn't see me yesterday as I ran down the road behind their truck screaming for them to come back and fix it.


I don't even think you'd have to disconnect anything. Just remove 4 staples, swap the wire positions, and put the staples back.

I would *so* do that.


----------



## SoFlaModel3 (Apr 15, 2017)

garsh said:


> I don't even think you'd have to disconnect anything. Just remove 4 staples, swap the wire positions, and put the staples back.
> 
> I would *so* do that.


^^^ this guy made me add a missing screw to my dad's cover plate on his Nema 14-50. He means business


----------



## Sandy (Jun 3, 2017)

garsh said:


> I don't even think you'd have to disconnect anything. Just remove 4 staples, swap the wire positions, and put the staples back.
> 
> I would *so* do that.





SoFlaModel3 said:


> ^^^ this guy made me add a missing screw to my dad's cover plate on his Nema 14-50. He means business


But then I would have to turn the main off to switch the breakers. AND THEN I would have to change my Apple Watch to chronograph and reset all the clocks in the house one at a time so they were all synchronized. Do you have any idea how much the grandfather clock I inherited from my great uncle drives me crazy?


----------



## mdfraz (Oct 17, 2017)

My fiance and I are building our house right now and I've talked to the contractor about doing the 14-50 220V outlet in the garage right now. First, they've quoted me $400, which seems fairly reasonable; anyone think I'm getting ripped off? Second, the contractor knew other people who've done these outlets for electric cars but he asked if I needed a specific setup for the outlet itself. I tried to pull up photos from the Tesla website to show him, but there are adapters included with the car that will work for most standard outlets, yes? The quote I've gotten from them says "standard 3 or 4 hole outlet and plate included". I presume that will satisfy my needs, correct?


----------



## NRG4All (Mar 28, 2017)

Sandy said:


> I know many have done this already but it's always good to check out different installs. Upgraded service from a 100amp panel to a 200amp panel. For a car charger and future shop in utility room. Already had a 200amp buried service to the meter but only 100amp into the house. They also ran 80' of #6/3awg Teck armour cable from the basement to between the garage doors at the front. Installed a Nema 14-50 for now. Tesla wall charger upgrade when I get the car.
> 
> Before:
> 
> ...


I installed a 40A, 240V circuit for my Aerovirnonment EVSE. On the surface that may seem too light. However, once I calculated that our car would be on the charger for 14 hours/day (leave a 7AM return 5PM) that meant that I could get as much as 94 kWh on that charge. Thus, it turned out to be the more economical way to go.


----------



## Sandy (Jun 3, 2017)

NRG4All said:


> I installed a 40A, 240V circuit for my Aerovirnonment EVSE. On the surface that may seem too light. However, once I calculated that our car would be on the charger for 14 hours/day (leave a 7AM return 5PM) that meant that I could get as much as 94 kWh on that charge. Thus, it turned out to be the more economical way to go.


Seems reasonable for your use. I will have occasions that require mid day recharge therefore wanted the option of 48 amps.


----------



## SoFlaModel3 (Apr 15, 2017)

mdfraz said:


> My fiance and I are building our house right now and I've talked to the contractor about doing the 14-50 220V outlet in the garage right now. First, they've quoted me $400, which seems fairly reasonable; anyone think I'm getting ripped off? Second, the contractor knew other people who've done these outlets for electric cars but he asked if I needed a specific setup for the outlet itself. I tried to pull up photos from the Tesla website to show him, but there are adapters included with the car that will work for most standard outlets, yes? The quote I've gotten from them says "standard 3 or 4 hole outlet and plate included". I presume that will satisfy my needs, correct?


Hard to say on the price without knowing specifics but suffice to say it's well within the reasonable range of the spectrum.

As far as making sure they do everything properly, check the attached document from Tesla on this!


----------



## Rusty (Sep 9, 2017)

mdfraz said:


> My fiance and I are building our house right now and I've talked to the contractor about doing the 14-50 220V outlet in the garage right now. First, they've quoted me $400, which seems fairly reasonable; anyone think I'm getting ripped off? Second, the contractor knew other people who've done these outlets for electric cars but he asked if I needed a specific setup for the outlet itself. I tried to pull up photos from the Tesla website to show him, but there are adapters included with the car that will work for most standard outlets, yes? The quote I've gotten from them says "standard 3 or 4 hole outlet and plate included". I presume that will satisfy my needs, correct?


14-50 4 hole plug (RV plug) is what comes standard with the car from my understanding.


----------



## mdfraz (Oct 17, 2017)

Thanks to both of you. I actually noticed after I sent the message that they were quoting a 30 amp outlet. I don't know what the 14-50 is going to cost. I can see on the Tesla site that the 30 amp would only get me to 22 miles per hour while the 50 amp is more like 30; though I think those numbers are for the standard range, and I'm looking at getting the long range battery. Trying to decide if what I anticipate will be extra cost will be worth the quicker charging.


----------



## Sandy (Jun 3, 2017)

The LR battery is capable of 48 amp charging. It may be a bit more upfront but the Tesla wall connector with 6/3 wire to it on a 60 amp breaker will allow charging up to 48 amps when needed.
I am set up for this already. I just know I would regret not setting up for what the car is capable of. It’s more money up front but longer term worth it to me.


----------



## mdfraz (Oct 17, 2017)

I'm thinking unless the price differential is a 2-3x jump I will want to install the 14-50, as I think I recall seeing maybe 37 miles per hour of charge on the long range battery. Just to have that quick charge capacity seems like a good investment.


----------



## garsh (Apr 4, 2016)

mdfraz said:


> Thanks to both of you. I actually noticed after I sent the message that they were quoting a 30 amp outlet. I don't know what the 14-50 is going to cost.


Outlets are cheap. The problem is the size of the wire that they're planning to run.

A 30-amp circuit requires 10-gauge wiring. This limits you to charging at 22 amps.
A 50-amp circuit requires 8-gauge wiring. This limits you to charging at 40 amps.
A 60-amp circuit requires 6-gauge wiring. This limits you to charging at 48 amps.
I installed NEMA 14-50 outlets with 50-amp breakers, but I decided to oversize the wiring and ran 6-gauge. This way, if I ever decide to install a Tesla wall connector in the future, I just need to swap in a 60-amp breaker (~$12) and I'm ready. I would suggest that you do the same. The thicker wire is more expensive and harder to work with, so I would expect labor costs to increase as well as material costs. But it will help future-proof your home a little bit, assuming that electric cars take off as we expect them to.

Home Depot: Southwire 125 ft. 6/3 Stranded Romex SIMpull CU NM-B W/G Wire, $237
Home Depot: Southwire 125 ft. 8/3 Stranded Romex SIMpull CU NM-B W/G Wire, $173
Home Depot: Southwire 100 ft. 10/3 Solid Romex SIMpull CU NM-B W/G Wire, $115
If I were building a new home myself, I would *consider* running 3-gauge to support a 100-amp circuit (although that's probably going to be huge bucks). At the very least, I'd be sure to run a circuit for each car that fits in the garage, and maybe even another circuit to support an outdoor charger as well (since people regularly park in their driveways).


----------



## Sandy (Jun 3, 2017)

garsh said:


> Outlets are cheap. The problem is the size of the wire that they're planning to run.
> 
> A 30-amp circuit requires 10-gauge wiring. This limits you to charging at 22 amps.
> A 50-amp circuit requires 8-gauge wiring. This limits you to charging at 40 amps.
> ...


That's exactly what I did. To avoid using conduit with my surface run wire I used Teck90 cable. Basically regular pvc sheathed 6/3 covered in metal armour and then sheathed in pvc again. Buried, surface mount, wet and dry approved.


----------



## Tesla2ElectricBoogaloo (Aug 1, 2017)

I was very fortunate with my setup:

The house my wife and I bought about 7 months ago was a complete refurb, down to the studs. They updated everything, including the electrical service.

I only have a 100A box, but that's because everything is natural gas. Heat, hot water, stove, fireplace, and dryer. That way, there isn't a huge load on the system, especially at night.

The same guy who re-wired the house is also the Town's electrical inspector....and the guy I hired to install my HPWC. (How this isn't a conflict of interest, I'll never know...but who am I to fight small town politics?)

Anyway, he put me on a 60A breaker.

This means I'm maxed out on the single-charger Model S I'm taking delivery of any time now, as well as for my Performance Model 3 next year.

Now, I just have to wait to hear from my Delivery Specialist.


----------



## Sandy (Jun 3, 2017)

Tesla2ElectricBoogaloo said:


> I was very fortunate with my setup:
> 
> The house my wife and I bought about 7 months ago was a complete refurb, down to the studs. They updated everything, including the electrical service.
> 
> ...


Cool! The mistake I made buying a 6 year old house 5 years ago was not running gas lines for the dryer and stove. Finished basement made it difficult. Would have saved me the 200amp upgrade. Are you going to install 1 WC with the 24' for both cars or or 2 WC's sharing load sharing the 60amp?


----------



## Tesla2ElectricBoogaloo (Aug 1, 2017)

Sandy said:


> Cool! The mistake I made buying a 6 year old house 5 years ago was not running gas lines for the dryer and stove. Finished basement made it difficult. Would have saved me the 200amp upgrade. Are you going to install 1 WC with the 24' for both cars or or 2 WC's sharing load sharing the 60amp?


The plan is to actually trade the S in once the Model 3 Performance is available, so the one HPWC will suffice.


----------



## Famman49 (Sep 12, 2017)

garsh said:


> Outlets are cheap. The problem is the size of the wire that they're planning to run.
> 
> A 30-amp circuit requires 10-gauge wiring. This limits you to charging at 22 amps.
> A 50-amp circuit requires 8-gauge wiring. This limits you to charging at 40 amps.
> ...


Excellent Information! I had a local electrician install my Wall Connector. I challenged him repeatedly when he said he would use 10 gauge romex for my 60 amp circuit (48 amp sustained load). He insisted that 10 gauge wire was the way to go. He said 10 gauge should be good to 50 amps (not up to code for sure). So he installed a 50 amp breaker. Now he is going to have to re-do the install. I want the full capacity of the Wall Connector, and I don't want a safety issue with a 50 amp breaker on wire rated only for 30 amps. I'm pretty sure the local building inspector would agree.


----------



## scaots (Sep 13, 2017)

Wire needed depends a lot on distance also. I'm pretty sure that my outlet installed one foot from the breaker box would be safe with only 14 gauge wiring for 50 amps. However per 2008 National Electric Code (used for my state), I believe it requires 6 gauge min for 50 amp. I'll do it myself so no inspection, but will make sure it is up to code anyway because you don't want to be at fault for something done wrong causing a problem.


----------



## Guest (Nov 27, 2017)

scaots said:


> Wire needed depends a lot on distance also. I'm pretty sure that my outlet installed one foot from the breaker box would be safe with only 14 gauge wiring for 50 amps. However per 2008 National Electric Code (used for my state), I believe it requires 6 gauge min for 50 amp.


Partly true. It not only depends on the cable length but also where is that wire. Open air - clipped to wall is perfect. Compared to stuck under the wall with insulation with 2 more cables for example.

In EU, regulations are more specific and guidelines depend on installation, exterior temperature, maximum cable insulation temperature allowance etc.
For example, in case of solo clipped (surface or open air) cable, single phase:
*Continuous *allowed amps:
4mm2 (around 12AWG) 37A
6mm2 (around 10AWG) 47A

Though running 40A continuous (50A breaker) through 14 gauge (2.5mm2) is not acceptable even for a foot if insulation around the wires is not high temperature resistant or the surface itself is sensitive to raised temperature. 2.5mm2 can do 27A with regular (60-70*C PVC) cable insulation.

These amps are definitely safe if voltage drop is not a problem (and it is not if length is short) and cable is in open air.

6AWG is correct, but for cheap 70*C cable, exterior temp 30*C, in a wall with insulation, not touching surfaces (insulation in all directions). Aka worst case scenario.
Whole EU uses these guidelines and so far millions of households are absolutely fine


----------



## MelindaV (Apr 2, 2016)

arnis said:


> Partly true. It not only depends on the cable length but also where is that wire. Open air - clipped to wall is perfect. Compared to stuck under the wall with insulation with 2 more cables for example.
> 
> In EU, regulations are more specific and guidelines depend on installation, exterior temperature, maximum cable insulation temperature allowance etc.
> For example, in case of solo clipped (surface or open air) cable, single phase:
> ...


Many jurisdictions here do not allow wiring to be exposed (open air). Some areas allow surface mount conduit, others only permit wires in the wall.


----------



## Guest (Nov 27, 2017)

MelindaV said:


> Many jurisdictions here do not allow wiring to be exposed (open air). Some areas allow surface mount conduit, others only permit wires in the wall.


I've noticed that conduit madness some time ago. 
I'm surprised US hair dryers, microwave ovens, toasters and wired power tools don't have metal conduit protecting the cable

_Power or communications cables (e.g., computer networking) that are routed in or through air-handling spaces (plenums) of office buildings are required under the model building code to be either encased in metal conduit, or rated for low flame and smoke production._
Didn't find any other reasons why does that separate conduit requirement exists for surface mounted wiring.

New safe insulation is used for ages now. Like Musk said, regulations should have an expiration date. Everybody makes new ones and old ones just continue existing even if they become irrelevant.
Millions of EU homes have cables mounted on the walls and everything is fine. Actually, some say it is safer than having cables behind the wall due to thermal reasons and possibility of visual inspection. My house was like that before renovation. Now, for clean look, cables are buried. Not in conduit. 
Insulated wires are sheathed in a cable. Sheathing already does everything conduit should do. With some exceptions like sunlight, compressed concrete etc.








_*NYM-J* *is a VDE approved, solid conductor, 300/500v gray PVC insulated and jacketed installation cable. These cables are suitable for use in, on and under plaster, benton, brickwork and concrete. NYM-J cables should NOT be used in the direct laying of shaken, vibrated or compressed concrete. Outdoor usage is only possible as long as the cable is protected against direct sunlight. Usable in open air in dry, damp and wet environments.*_

Some reading for nolifers:
https://library.e.abb.com/public/ae2141fea4bfa9d748257a700024a579/1SDC010002D0206.pdf

PS: Of course there are cables that require conduit.


----------



## Sandy (Jun 3, 2017)

MelindaV said:


> Many jurisdictions here do not allow wiring to be exposed (open air). Some areas allow surface mount conduit, others only permit wires in the wall.


The only 2 ways I could pass code here with the total surface run exposed to the interior was either with conduit or the Teck90 armour cable I used. 
I wanna plug something into it!!!!!!!


----------

