# Audi e-tron news



## Thomas Mikl (Jun 26, 2017)

The following are confirmed news from a hands on workshop for the german press without NDA, so I am free to post this I guess 

e-tron battery:
It will have a 95kW battery with 462 pouches from LG chem. Between the pouches there are cooling mats that can actively cool the battery, it will however not pre-heat or have any heating ability.
Audi claims that effectively pouch batteries are superior as they can be packaged denser.
Audi claims 400km range.(310 miles)
Audi also claims that unlike Tesla, through this cooling the e-tron can hold its top speed longer.

_Thoughts on the battery:
As a physicist I still strongly belief that pouch is inferior with todays electrodes. While it is clear it can be packaged denser, that is one of the problems that this kind of battery has. Also distributing the load of accelleration over 462 pouches or about 10 times that number of individual round cells makes a huge difference as a single round cell will have more room for fault and less degradation over time. So in my opinion I would say the Tesla approach is far superior.
Also I guess the 400km range for a sort of SUV which is only 200kg (around 400 lbs) lighter than the X, they would have to have a miracle cw number and the best wheel covers in the industry. So my guess this is EU standard testing which is .... stupid.
Now I think the last claim is totaly stupid, they are seriously afraid of Tesla and they cannot cool their battery any better. So unless they alow degradation for the sake of speed this claim is simply bogus._

loading the e-tron:
The e-tron will have a CCS2 DC fast charger that can charge up to 150kW, the AC internal charger is capable of charging up to 22 kW via Type2.
Audi also says it is hugely investing into the Ionity Joint Venture and pouring at least a billion Euros into that net that will have chargers that can do 350kW over CCS2.

_Thoughts:
I think this is an excellent move. Finally someone with a sense that the loading infrastructure will not build itself. However I was a little bummed that they did ride the train of 350kW is more than twise of Tesla Supercharger, while their e-tron can also only do 150kW... kind of pissed me off.
_
Starting Price:
The e-tron will start at Euro 80,000 in Germany. With the usual extra list of Audi that will go up to usually 130k.
But at least the entry model will have AC and navigation, which is a first for Audi.


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## SoFlaModel3 (Apr 15, 2017)

Very curious to see US pricing on this car!


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## Thomas Mikl (Jun 26, 2017)

If it is inline with other Audi offerings I would guess 75k for entry model plus tax.

However I am on the train to never again buy from Audi after Dieselgate...


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## KarenRei (Jul 27, 2017)

> Audi claims 400km range.(310 miles)


~400km is ~250mi. And it's WLTP, so cut that by 85% to get EPA combined (see the Leaf's WLTP of 177mi combined vs. 151mi EPA combined). So expect ~210mi EPA combined if its WLTP:EPA ratio is similar to the Leaf. Less than a base Model 3.



> cooling mats that can actively cool the battery


Cooling _mats_? Sounds like peltier coolers. The easy/cheap/lazy solution, but they're very inefficient.



> Audi also claims that unlike Tesla, through this cooling the e-tron can hold its top speed longer.


Model S/X speeds are not limited by battery pack overheating, but by motor overheating. Model 3s are not limited by either.



> a sort of SUV


Note: E-tron vs. Model X:

Length: 192,1" vs. 198,3"
Width: 76" vs. 89,4"
Height: 60,6" vs. 66,3"
Cargo volume: 21,7 ft² vs. 88,1 ft² (5-seat config)
Seats: 5 vs. 5-7

It seems trendy to call every new EV these days a "SUV". Even the Kona is being called a "SUV", even though it's the same size as a Bolt.



> Audi also says it is hugely investing into the Ionity Joint Venture and pouring at least a billion Euros into that net that will have chargers that can do 350kW over CCS2.


I caution people to not get their hopes up too much on the "350kW chargers". If they're like CCS, most can only do their rated max power at ~1000V, meaning real-world charge rates are far lower for existing EVs, and only potential future vehicles which accept high charging voltages can make use of it. And charge times are much more limited by where taper starts than whatever peak rate you can do for the bottom ~30% of your charge regardless. Lastly, just because Audi is investing in Ionity doesn't mean at all that the vehicle will accept 350kW, or anything like it, any time soon.



> I would guess 75k for entry model plus tax.


EU pricing 'starting at '€80,000'
https://electrek.co/2018/03/15/audi-e-tron-quattro-suv-all-electric-price/

Take away VAT, convert from euros, and you're starting at $83k USD.


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## Thomas Mikl (Jun 26, 2017)

Thanks Karen! Awesome clarification.


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## garsh (Apr 4, 2016)

KarenRei said:


> It seems trendy to call every new EV these days a "SUV". Even the Kona is being called a "SUV", even though it's the same size as a Bolt.


Agreed. But I do like the trend of having taller cars again. As I get older, I appreciate that there are a lot of choices that are easy to get in and out of.


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## dozenne (Mar 5, 2019)

Wife and I went to the Audi dealership today to see the unveiling of the Audi e-Tron.
Looks exactly as the gas SUV version but just all electric. Inside was blah.
The great news was that they said that Audi and their parent company Volkswagen had recently signed a deal with Walmart to put their superchargers at all Walmarts across the US.
They didn't have a timeline though. They did say that Tesla supercharging stations were for Tesla only b/c of our plug type and that their stations would be the universal plug type that is used on all the other all electric vehicles and Tesla owners would have to use our adaptors.


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## jsmay311 (Oct 2, 2017)

dozenne said:


> The great news was that they said that Audi and their parent company Volkswagen had recently signed a deal with Walmart to put their superchargers at all Walmarts across the US.
> They didn't have a timeline though.


They were probably referring to this: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...l-ev-chargers-at-walmart-stores-idUSKBN1HP1YJ

You can find existing and planned Electrify America locations here: https://www.electrifyamerica.com/locate-charger You can also find them on www.plugshare.com by filtering for CCS chargers and/or the Electrify America network.

Also, probably shouldn't call them "Superchargers". That's a Tesla branding thing. "DC Fast Chargers" or "CCS" or something like that is probably more accurate.



dozenne said:


> They did say that Tesla supercharging stations were for Tesla only b/c of our plug type and that their stations would be the universal plug type that is used on all the other all electric vehicles and Tesla owners would have to use our adaptors.


True, except no such adapters exist/work yet for the Model 3.

Tesla's Chademo adapters _might eventually_ work for the Model 3 (side note: can hardly believe they still don't work), although it looks like most Electrify America locations only have one Chademo plug vs 4 CCS plugs.

And the consensus opinion seems to be that current generation Teslas will never work with a CCS adapter. (I hope the consensus is wrong, but still...)


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## GDN (Oct 30, 2017)

Note that the Model 3's shipping overseas have the CCS built in. Seems to be the standard that the world is settling on. I think with enough of these chargers installed and some pressure from owners Tesla will hopefully start to build the adapter. As well they should really start building the same charge port for NA that has both plugs available - Tesla proprietary and CCS. It would make charging much more flexible.


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## Technical48 (Apr 29, 2018)

From a 95kWh battery. Wow. They're going to sell 10s of them! 

Seriously, what an embarrassment. I'm a fan of Audi in general but they really missed the mark.


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## iChris93 (Feb 3, 2017)

Fan of Audi through diesel gate?


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## Bokonon (Apr 13, 2017)

Technical48 said:


> From a 95kWh battery. Wow. They're going to sell 10s of them!


Wow indeed... Let's be generous and assume a 6 kWh buffer. 89 kWh / 204 miles = 436 Wh/mi. That's 30% higher consumption than a Model X 100D at 334 Wh/mi.


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## SoFlaModel3 (Apr 15, 2017)

Technical48 said:


> From a 95kWh battery. Wow. They're going to sell 10s of them!
> 
> Seriously, what an embarrassment. I'm a fan of Audi in general but they really missed the mark.


Meanwhile my car gets a software update to add 15 miles of range. The legacy auto makers have a long way to go to figure this out...


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## PNWmisty (Aug 19, 2017)

Technical48 said:


> From a 95kWh battery. Wow. They're going to sell 10s of them!
> 
> Seriously, what an embarrassment. I'm a fan of Audi in general but they really missed the mark.


That's a real Tesla killer*

*Only applicable if MSRP is $29,995 or less


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## Technical48 (Apr 29, 2018)

Regardless of their history I was hoping they'd start making good EVs. Instead they've shot themselves in the foot with a terrible freshman effort. Neither Audi or the EV movement will see any benefit from a 204 mile range luxury SUV. 

The e-Tron turns out to be an e-Tron killer! 😀


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## iChris93 (Feb 3, 2017)

Technical48 said:


> Regardless of their history I was hoping they'd start making good EVs. Instead they've shot themselves in the foot with a terrible freshman effort. Neither Audi or the EV movement will see any benefit from a 204 mile range luxury SUV.
> 
> The e-Tron turns out to be an e-Tron killer! 😀


If they sell them, it will make their Electrify America chargers a bit more busy.


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## garsh (Apr 4, 2016)

iChris93 said:


> Fan of Audi through diesel gate?


Was any non-Tesla carmaker not fudging their diesel emissions tests? I thought it came out that they all were.


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## Jayc (May 19, 2016)

Technical48 said:


> From a 95kWh battery. Wow. They're going to sell 10s of them!
> 
> Seriously, what an embarrassment. I'm a fan of Audi in general but they really missed the mark.


In the ICE world, you could stick a decent engine, add a stronger particulate filter, sneak control logic to bypass testing, and not worry about it much because owners will rarely complain. With a limited range, in EVs its a whole new ballgame as they have come to discover and still finding out the hard way. And it's the big grills and general dated design that legacy auto just cannot seem to shake off - in fear that their loyal fan base will abandon the brand.

But I would bet none of the anti-Tesla media will ever question the profit margins of the e-tron line.


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## iChris93 (Feb 3, 2017)

garsh said:


> Was any non-Tesla carmaker not fudging their diesel emissions tests? I thought it came out that they all were.


I think all the Germans were.


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## garsh (Apr 4, 2016)

iChris93 said:


> I think all the Germans were.


It went much further than that.

Fiat Chrysler to pay $515 mn in US 'dieselgate' settlements
Lawsuit Accuses Ford Of Cheating Diesel Emissions On 500,000 Trucks
GM and Bosch face lawsuit over diesel emissions cheating in US court

Nissan Admits To Falsifying Emissions Tests
Mitsubishi's dieselgate: cheating since 1991


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## iChris93 (Feb 3, 2017)

garsh said:


> It went much further than that.
> 
> Fiat Chrysler to pay $515 mn in US 'dieselgate' settlements
> Lawsuit Accuses Ford Of Cheating Diesel Emissions On 500,000 Trucks
> ...


I notice one name missing, Tesla.

Edit: I would like to add @garsh pointed out Toyota was also not named.


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## garsh (Apr 4, 2016)

iChris93 said:


> I notice one name missing, Tesla.


I also couldn't find any articles about Honda or Toyota.
Did they make it through unscathed?


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## MelindaV (Apr 2, 2016)

garsh said:


> I also couldn't find any articles about Honda or Toyota.
> Did they make it through unscathed?


do either of those have diesel vehicles? Im pretty sure Tesla hasn't made a diesel car before @iChris93


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## garsh (Apr 4, 2016)

MelindaV said:


> do either of those have diesel vehicles?


Not in the U.S., but I think they do in Europe.

Add Honda, Mazda, Renault, Hyundai, Citroen, Fiat, and Volvo to the list.
I still can't find anything about Toyota. Did they really come through unscathed?

Wide range of cars emit more pollution in realistic driving tests, data shows
_Diesel cars made by Renault, Nissan, Hyundai, Citroen, Fiat and Volvo among others emitted far more NOx in more rigorous tests, research shows_
Four more carmakers join diesel emissions row
_Mercedes-Benz, Honda, Mazda and Mitsubishi's cars are shown to emit significantly more NOx pollution on the road than in regulatory tests_


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## JasonF (Oct 26, 2018)

I think Toyota diesels are extremely rare. I can't think of any of their cars that have it, since they invested heavily in hybrid gasoline.

Most of the diesel carmakers had a problem, especially in Europe: Diesel is much cheaper to drive. But diesels for the most part can't compete with gasoline if the engines are made to conform to emissions limits, making customers unhappy with the performance relative to gas. So the engine makers figured out they can have two different modes for the engine, one the customer will be happy with, and one that passes emissions tests. They already invested too much to scrap diesel and admit that it was impossible to do both of those at the same time honestly. It was only a matter of time before they were caught.

And it looks to me like Audi rushed their EV to market, and didn't take the time to optimize for efficiency the way Tesla did. They saw themselves losing ground to Tesla every day they delay the release, and saw other brands breathing down their necks with upcoming EV releases as well, and just pushed it out as quickly as possible.

Other EV makers suffer from being afraid to increase prices and include a larger battery, because they have "focus groups" who tell them nobody will pay more to get an EV when there are still gasoline cars that are cheaper (and the limited range is the reason why, you fools!).


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## Technical48 (Apr 29, 2018)

Another thought: Tesla's achievement in designing and manufacturing no-compromise EVs at scale is truly remarkable, and made even more remarkable by the fact that they have no competition driving them. 

Here, Audi had an actual competitor to benchmark against and they come up with a design that wouldn't have been competitive 5 years ago let alone today. SMH


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## ADK46 (Aug 4, 2018)

I was just reading that Porsche's Taycan will not do regen except with the brake pedal. I’m going to presume they won’t have OTA updates or any of the other Tesla-like features, either. A shame.


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## PNWmisty (Aug 19, 2017)

garsh said:


> Not in the U.S., but I think they do in Europe.
> 
> Add Honda, Mazda, Renault, Hyundai, Citroen, Fiat, and Volvo to the list.
> I still can't find anything about Toyota. Did they really come through unscathed?
> ...


It's important to realize, what VW did was illegal and much worse than simply designing your engine to perform better when driven like it's driven on the test cycle. As far as I know, only VW (and subsidiaries?) had a special drive cycle that recognized it was being tested and went into a special low-emissions mode. The others, as far as I know, simply designed their engines to be able to pass the test (while still having more power when floored or at rpms not needed to complete the test drive cycle). This points more to flaws in the regulations/test procedures than it does to "fudging" the test results. It's akin to a wealthy person structuring their businesses to take the best advantage of tax law loopholes. The difference being that the latter doesn't kill people, it only makes the ultra-wealthy richer and shifts the tax burden to the middle class. But both can be perfectly legal. The red-haired guy brags about how smart he is in paying the minimum amount of taxes possible.


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## PNWmisty (Aug 19, 2017)

Technical48 said:


> Another thought: Tesla's achievement in designing and manufacturing no-compromise EVs at scale is truly remarkable, and made even more remarkable by the fact that they have no competition driving them.


I agree with the first part, Tesla's achievements are remarkable. I think there is a commonly repeated misunderstanding in the second half, namely that an EV primarily competes with other EV's. Tesla recognized early in the game their real competition were ICE vehicles. They compete vigorously with ICE vehicles. The other manufacturers are finding out how painful this is. They are losing sales to EV's but they don't have the technology/knowledge/supply chains to build EV's that can compete with ICE vehicles (or ICE vehicles that can compete with EV's). So, of course, they want Tesla to fail.

The story is that Tesla has good technology but doesn't don't know how to build cars effectively. The truth of the matter is the established players don't know how to build desirable cars effectively and Tesla is leveraging this fact, coupled with their EV knowledge, to build competitive cars at a competitive price point. Even if the legacy manufacturers had the knowledge Tesla has, and for the most part they almost do, they can't compete because Tesla has leveraged certain efficiencies that allow them to crank out cars for less cost than legacy companies sourcing the bulk of the parts from external suppliers. Tesla has simplified the art of building cars by doing more of it themselves, they even make their own seats! Yes, it's hard work but Tesla didn't have 50 years of building inefficient corporate cultures that are not responsive to what the market actually wants.


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## Technical48 (Apr 29, 2018)

ADK46 said:


> I was just reading that Porsche's Taycan will not do regen except with the brake pedal. I'm going to presume they won't have OTA updates or any of the other Tesla-like features, either. A shame.


It appears that Audi is also blending regen with the brake pedal. If so that's an awful design choice and another nail in the e-Tron coffin as far as I'm concerned.


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## Technical48 (Apr 29, 2018)

PNWmisty said:


> I agree with the first part, Tesla's achievements are remarkable. I think there is a commonly repeated misunderstanding in the second half, namely that an EV primarily competes with other EV's. Tesla recognized early in the game their real competition were ICE vehicles. They compete vigorously with ICE vehicles. The other manufacturers are finding out how painful this is. They are losing sales to EV's but they don't have the technology/knowledge/supply chains to build EV's that can compete with ICE vehicles (or ICE vehicles that can compete with EV's). So, of course, they want Tesla to fail.
> 
> The story is that Tesla has good technology but doesn't don't know how to build cars effectively. The truth of the matter is the established players don't know how to build desirable cars effectively and Tesla is leveraging this fact, coupled with their EV knowledge, to build competitive cars at a competitive price point. Even if the legacy manufacturers had the knowledge Tesla has, and for the most part they almost do, they can't compete because Tesla has leveraged certain efficiencies that allow them to crank out cars for less cost than legacy companies sourcing the bulk of the parts from external suppliers. Tesla has simplified the art of building cars by doing more of it themselves, they even make their own seats! Yes, it's hard work but Tesla didn't have 50 years of building inefficient corporate cultures that are not responsive to what the market actually wants.


You're right, and all the more reason for us to be grateful for the mere existence of Tesla as a (mostly) viable car company. If not for tesla, who knows how many years (or decades!) we would endure waiting for a practical mass-market EV to arrive upon the scene.


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## JasonF (Oct 26, 2018)

PNWmisty said:


> Tesla has leveraged certain efficiencies that allow them to crank out cars for less cost than legacy companies sourcing the bulk of the parts from external suppliers


As I see it, most legacy automaker have hamstrung themselves by having a deep parts bin that the execs insist they use, because it "cuts costs". That's been demonstrated to be false savings, because they end up having to add more manufacturing complexity to support those parts. For example adding an air compressor that runs as long as the car is on so that the parts-bin vacuum-actuated power brakes will work.

Tesla, instead, redesigned and re-engineered _every single system_ on the Model 3, betting that in the long run, not sharing as many parts as possible with even the Model S and X would cut the cost of manufacturing. That bet is what cost them a lot in time and money trying to get the manufacturing to work right in the first place, but it's just now starting to pay off. I'd bet the S and X will get a major redesign soon - not to look more modern, necessarily, but to simplify and reduce manufacturing costs. And they probably won't share a lot of Model 3 parts, because it will be the _next_ evolution.

Probably the most ridiculous hamstringing I've seen by requiring parts bin use:

Just about every ICE car company now that uses LED taillights has one resistor for each light built in to it. The resistor runs REALLY hot, and in some cases damages the taillights or housing. Which is in part why LED taillights are so unreliable and fail so early in a lot of models.

Why do they let the taillights self-destruct? Because they don't want to change the Body Management Unit most of them have used since the 1990's. The BMU uses filament light bulb resistance to determine if the turn signals work, and more importantly, whether the brakes are applied. It transmits that information to the ABS system, cruise control, and engine computer (ECU). So if you hook up LED taillights without a resistor, you'll get a Service Engine Soon light, an ABS failure warning, and the cruise control won't work, and your ECU will go into limp-home mode.


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## Technical48 (Apr 29, 2018)

I'm a long time member of an Audi forum, so I stopped by to read their thoughts on the e-Tron. Of course, they are doing their level best to justify the low range and high price tag of the Audi. They're particularly sensitive to any comparisons to Tesla.

My favorite comment? Teslas have "unnecessary range". I kid you not. And they call us fanboys!

Lots of mentions of cancellations too. The folks who have test driven a Model 3 since the EPA range announcement pronounced themselves "blown away". So maybe this will drive a bump in Model 3 deliveries. Quite ironic if it turns out that the e-Tron became a gateway to more EV sales, but not for Audi.


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## DanSz (Feb 1, 2019)

Range isn’t everything.

While the efficiency is low, 200 miles is a magic number for a lot of people and the e-Tron will be perfect in states with a good charging network.

It’s a good start. I welcome the “competition”.

No regen except with brake means it will coast like a gasmobile. Apparently, Audi owners aren’t ready for one pedal driving.


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## garsh (Apr 4, 2016)

DanSz said:


> No regen except with brake means it will coast like a gasmobile. Apparently, Audi owners aren't ready for one pedal driving.


No regen at all? It's going to coast a lot more than a combustion vehicle then.

Nissan put some regen on accelerator lift and additional regen on the brake.


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## Bokonon (Apr 13, 2017)

DanSz said:


> No regen except with brake means it will coast like a gasmobile. Apparently, Audi owners aren't ready for one pedal driving.


With the e-Golf, VW put no regen on the default drive gear ("D"), so unless you manually selected one of the other drive modes with regen (D1, D2, D3, B) each time you started the vehicle, the only regen available was through the blended brake pedal... And I'd say it gave you access to maybe 60-70% of the car's maximum regen capability.

From what I've read, the e-Tron similarly has drive modes with built-in regen, but my guess is they aren't the default. And that means many people (especially those new to EVs) won't use them. Case in point: during our three-year e-Golf lease, my wife never once shifted out of D.


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## Taney71 (Dec 28, 2018)

You know I was thinking of taking a look at this car after watching that Alex Guberman guy from “E for Electric” on YouTube. Not really because he made a great case for the car but I figured Audi is coming out with an electric car and it might be good. But now I see the mileage at the low 200s. That’s just crazy and this Alex guy looks like an idiot not only for this but because he continually bashes Tesla.


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## eXntrc (Jan 14, 2019)

Just sharing a great article from CleanTecnica, clearing up some unfortunate consumer confusion.

*Correcting Audi: Tesla Model 3 Charges Over 2 Times Faster Than Audi e-tron *

https://cleantechnica.com/2019/05/1...charges-over-2-times-faster-than-audi-e-tron/


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## garsh (Apr 4, 2016)

Great article. Thanks for sharing.
Here's the final, non-misleading take-away:


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## B.Silva (Sep 30, 2018)

I saw my first e-tron in the flesh today. I have to say, the packaging looks very nice. The styling is very good, the size and shape are excellent. It's between an SUV and an allroad, with nice cargo space and ground clearance. The interior materials were very high quality, like other Audis. If it were a Tesla, I'd buy one. I have a Model 3 but a four door sedan is not my desired package. I really want an SUV - for the hatch back, for the raised height and ground clearance, for the offroad-abilty, for a hitch (for a bike rack), and for the cargo space. The X is too big and too complicated and expensive for me. The Model Y looks good and I will look closely at trading my 3 for a Y when it comes out. But not sure it has as much ground clearance as I'd like. The e-tron package would suit my needs perfectly. But.... the e-tron range is terrible (210 EPA), the interior design is overly complicated (I love the Tesla simplicity and integration), and I doubt it comes with free OTA updates. Nor does it have the Tesla Supercharger network.


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## msjulie (Feb 6, 2018)

Super Charging is the giant cherry on top; though I generally like Audi's a big SUV isn't my cup of tee.. nor is it's range SC or not


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## B.Silva (Sep 30, 2018)

The e-tron is not what I'd call a big SUV. An Audi Q7 is a big SUV, so is the Model X. The e-tron looked more like an A6-size allroad. It had nice ground clearance, which I care about because I go on gravel and forest service roads often to get to trailheads for hiking and mountain biking -- which is why I kept my Audi Q5 though I drive the Model 3 90% of the time now.

The e-tron range is really bad. It's a deal killer for me for an SUV. It has a big battery too so I guess their battery management software isn't nearly as good as Tesla's. Which is why I said, I really like the e-tron package but wish it were a Tesla.


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## Bokonon (Apr 13, 2017)

We pulled up to an e-Tron at a stoplight this past weekend, and I pointed it out to my wife (who is becoming increasingly eager to replace her 9-year-old Subaru Outback with a PHEV or EV). Maybe it was because we were in the Model 3, but the e-Tron seemed massive to me as well... Or at least bigger than I was expecting. 

I guess in my mind it was similar in size to my sister in law's Q5, but it is actually a little bigger. Not as large as the Q8, I suppose, but bulkier than I'd expect for a pure EV. It looked decent, at least... Even with some kind of copper-ish paint. 

But I think it's safe to cross off the shopping list (even before considering the 75K price tag). Still hoping she'll open her mind to a Model Y once all the details are brought out into the light. 🤞


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## B.Silva (Sep 30, 2018)

It's bigger than a Q5 (which I have) and smaller than a Q7/Q8. My sense was similar in size to an A6 allroad. I liked the ground clearance, which I don't have enough of in the Model 3 to get rid of my Q5. I'm hoping the Model Y will have enough. The poor range, lack of SC network, and no OTA updates are deal killers for the e-tron for me. But I prefer the size of the e-tron, for example, over the X.


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## Mr. Spacely (Feb 28, 2019)

There are Audi's on display at International Mall in Tampa. The e-Tron there has a window sticker that says "75mpge" which is pretty bad compared to our Model 3s at about 125mpge. The sticker also says "Not Approved For Sale." Not sure why...


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## bwilson4web (Mar 4, 2019)

So I played the Youtube video of an e-tron charging, entered the data in a spreadsheet, and plotted the values:









Current limited - could be charger, likely, but could be the battery management system protecting internal wiring. As the battery voltage increases at a constant current, so too does the kW charge rate.
Charger kW - 150 kW when the battery voltage and current matched the charger capacity.
Battery taper - ordinary current fall-off as the battery approaches peak charge.
There was an earlier Audi release suggesting 800 V charging: https://www.audiusa.com/models/audi-e-tron-gt. If the e-tron battery is at 800 V, the car would need a boost DC-to-DC converter to step up the voltage. But these regulators are notorious for being current limited and this could be going on. Regardless, the charger and e-tron wires are not allowed to overheat and melt which is achieved by limiting the current.

In contrast, this is what my Standard Range Plus Model 3 Tesla does:








For grins, I combined the time vs battery range curves into one chart:









Tesla Standard Range Plus Model 3 charging 15-25 minutes - this gives a faster trip time than the e-tron. My Tesla used a 120 kW SuperCharger while the e-tron used a 150 kW charger. We already know the long range Model 3 can achieve 250 kW at the Las Vegas, V3 SuperCharger.
Bob Wilson

ps. If there is any interest, I'll upload a zip file with the spreadsheet.


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## racekarl (Jul 31, 2018)

> There was an earlier Audi release suggesting 800 V charging: https://www.audiusa.com/models/audi-e-tron-gt.


The e-tron and e-tron GT are not the same vehicle. The e-tron GT is Audi's version of the Taycan, which does have the 800V battery.


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## Mr. Spacely (Feb 28, 2019)

@bwilson4web I never understand your charts. Way too many things going on. So is the Tesla better or worse than the e-tron?


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## bwilson4web (Mar 4, 2019)

Mr. Spacely said:


> @bwilson4web I never understand your charts. Way too many things going on. So is the Tesla better or worse than the e-tron?


Better depends upon your requirements. So let's start with:









Charging for under 35 minutes - the Tesla will gain more battery miles than the e-tron. So if you and your sibling are racing to Grandmother's house, the Tesla driver can charge for 15-25 minutes and get back on the road faster. They will get to Grandmother's house first.
Charging for ~35 min - you both will arrive at the same time.
Charging for more than 35 minutes - the e-tron will arrive first. 
Since my reason for making a trip is to get there, I choose the Tesla making 15-25 minute charging stops and leaning for the shortest charging session to complete the next segment.

The other two charts have an X-axis, time, and two Y-axis, one for battery range, miles, and the other for rate of charge, kW. In these charts, I flipped the left and right Y-axis but this doesn't change the shape of the curves. I use these curves for trip planning to understand how long a trip will take including charging. Does this help?

Bob Wilson


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## Needsdecaf (Dec 27, 2018)

New article by Motor Trend here.

https://www.motortrend.com/news/audi-e-tron-electric-suv-range-testing

Just have to say....that consumption seems absurdly high to me. What does a Model X run?

And I'm not one to accuse of FUD, bias, etc. .......but what the hell is this quote about?

_Second, we have no reason to doubt the EPA's 204-mile range figure for the E-Tron. That figure is still short of the estimates for the Tesla Model X and Jaguar I-Pace, but the Audi is a much more usable car than either of them. Unlike the Jaguar, it has a legitimately spacious back seat. Because of the Tesla's silly falcon-wing doors, you can't put a roof rack on top like you could with the Audi. And let's not forget, Audi's technoluxe interior design might be the best in the industry. _

OK, I get it. The falcon wing doors aren't for everyone. My wife, for one, would never own an X because they are too showy for her. But, because you can't put a roof rack on it? I mean, crap, I own an SUV with a roof rack and I've taken it on 2500 mile road trips and never ONCE used the roof rack. How is that "much more usable"? I mean, with the large frunk and much more spacious rear cargo area, you don't NEED a roof rack, lol.

And the "best in the industry" interior now has three touch screens to control the functionality. I've not used it, but I've not seen super positive reviews on it. I'll reserve judgement for after I play with it. But can't be that much better than the Tesla big screen system.

Sheesh.


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## Scrannel (Oct 2, 2019)

Having coffee this morning, caught an Audi (ANTI?) electric car add. Maybe it's been out for a while? "Electric chargers! Try finding one of those! Maybe an electric car isn't for you!" It may have been designed to debunk questions about EVs. But it also featured some of their ICE stuff. The dilemma of the ICE crowd is how do you sell electrics by slamming ICE vehicles that you also sell?


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## pjfw8 (Apr 28, 2016)

The article is sloppy if not deliberately misleading. It implies that Tesla's range is only somewhat better: range "is still short of" Tesla. 328 versus 204 is a dramatic difference, especially in colder climates. A model S with 373 is even farther ahead. To imply that the Audi is more practical is a joke. I actually like the Audi and have owned an E-tron plugin. Its range is a deal breaker aggravated by the lack of high speed charging locations.


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## JasonF (Oct 26, 2018)

Stick to honest reviewers on youtube. The "old guard" (Motor Trend, Consumer Reports, etc) are nowadays heavily influenced by sponsorships because they're so desperate for funding. They're probably both giving raving reviews to all of the current Ford models as well, since Ford is currently spending a ton of money everywhere on sponsored reviews (also on youtube, so be very careful with what you consider honest reviewers even there!).


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## SR22pilot (Aug 16, 2018)

JasonF said:


> Stick to honest reviewers on youtube. The "old guard" (Motor Trend, Consumer Reports, etc) are nowadays heavily influenced by sponsorships because they're so desperate for funding. They're probably both giving raving reviews to all of the current Ford models as well, since Ford is currently spending a ton of money everywhere on sponsored reviews (also on youtube, so be very careful with what you consider honest reviewers even there!).


Be fair to Consumer Reports. They don't accept outside money. Everything is from subscriptions or donations. They just happen to be stuck in the past in their thinking.


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## Nom (Oct 30, 2018)

I thought the article was pretty direct, mostly, up until the end. 

Did say ‘significantly less’ range early. Showed the ugly side of the e-tron’s charging. Lack of non-Tesla chargers.

But seemed like at the end, had to say something relatively nice and all he could come up with was a slam in the falcon doors.

Looks like real range is in the 150-185 range. Yuck. Imagine during winter? Could be close to 125 mile range if drive with some speed on highway. That is a deal breaker for me. Way too stuck in your local radius. Go to work one time (100 mile round trip for me) and not get access to a charger - start to sweat a bit.

Also, for that big of a battery pack, that little range and my cost of electricity suggests no ‘fuel’ savings at all.


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## JasonF (Oct 26, 2018)

SR22pilot said:


> Be fair to Consumer Reports. They don't accept outside money. Everything is from subscriptions or donations. They just happen to be stuck in the past in their thinking.


With the number of errors they regularly publish about Tesla, ones that could be solved with 5 minutes of research, they're feeling _some_ kind of outside pressure. Maybe no one threatened their finances directly, but their execs are afraid positive reviews of Tesla will lead to a large loss of donation money or subs, so they simply publish what they think the subscribers want to see - a lot of the same rumors they've been hearing elsewhere already, confirming their own bias.

I think it's a little more than outdated thinking. It's that Tesla is, in their minds, supposed to be a small luxury automaker among the likes of Mclaren that makes expensive toys for the very rich in low volume, and may as well not exist as far as the general population is concerned. Audi, in their minds, is a _real_ car company. In the minds of a lot of people, EV's don't really exist until Audi, Mercedes, VW, GM, or Ford start manufacturing them in volume. Fortunately that will have to happen eventually, as those companies start to finally see that Tesla is actually a threat to their futures.


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## Needsdecaf (Dec 27, 2018)

JasonF said:


> Stick to honest reviewers on youtube. The "old guard" (Motor Trend, Consumer Reports, etc) are nowadays heavily influenced by sponsorships because they're so desperate for funding. They're probably both giving raving reviews to all of the current Ford models as well, since Ford is currently spending a ton of money everywhere on sponsored reviews (also on youtube, so be very careful with what you consider honest reviewers even there!).


To be fair, Motor Trend has been pretty kind to Tesla in the past and did name it their Ultimate Car of the Year. Meaning it was the most significant Car of the Year that they had EVER given the award to.

https://www.motortrend.com/news/201...evy-toyota-cadillac-ultimate-car-of-the-year/



> Ninety-two cars have won Car of the Year or Import Car of the Year since our founding. Some have been great, and others-well, others were products of their time. As we look over our list of Car of the Year winners, we can't deny that most have had a significant impact on both what we drive and how we drive.
> But surely one has to have had more of an impact than the 91 others.





> We are confident that, were we to summon all the judges and staff of the past 70 years, we would come to a rapid consensus: No vehicle we've awarded, be it Car of the Year, Import Car of the Year, SUV of the Year, or Truck of the Year, can equal the impact, performance, and engineering excellence that is our Ultimate Car of the Year winner, the 2013 Tesla Model S.


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## SR22pilot (Aug 16, 2018)

JasonF said:


> With the number of errors they regularly publish about Tesla, ones that could be solved with 5 minutes of research, they're feeling _some_ kind of outside pressure. Maybe no one threatened their finances directly, but their execs are afraid positive reviews of Tesla will lead to a large loss of donation money or subs, so they simply publish what they think the subscribers want to see - a lot of the same rumors they've been hearing elsewhere already, confirming their own bias.
> 
> I think it's a little more than outdated thinking. It's that Tesla is, in their minds, supposed to be a small luxury automaker among the likes of Mclaren that makes expensive toys for the very rich in low volume, and may as well not exist as far as the general population is concerned. Audi, in their minds, is a _real_ car company. In the minds of a lot of people, EV's don't really exist until Audi, Mercedes, VW, GM, or Ford start manufacturing them in volume. Fortunately that will have to happen eventually, as those companies start to finally see that Tesla is actually a threat to their futures.


There is a saying that goes "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."

Consumer Reports doesn't understand Tesla. They dislike the screen in the Model 3 because they haven't lived (really lived) with it for a year. They are like the people who put down the iPhone because it didn't have a tactile keyboard. The Model 3 is a $60K car but the interior doesn't look like a regular $60K car. Consumer Reports notices the lack of diamond stitching, special lighting and massaging seats. Heck, I miss having cooled seats. My Model 3 is a platform much like the iPhone is a platform. It is a different way of thinking. Consumer Reports is stuck in the past.

Look at the comments on AP. If you use AP much at all you realize you aren't going to trust it. However, you can still let it do its thing and save a lot of stress. In stop and go traffic, AP is a huge stress reliever. However, I know that NoA won't move over soon enough to get me into the exit lane during heavy Atlanta traffic on 400. I don't get upset at it. I just appreciate how well it works in many other situations. Consumer Reports focuses on what AP can't do without noting how awesome AP is when used appropriately.


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## StromTrooperM3 (Mar 27, 2019)

Nom said:


> Also, for that big of a battery pack, that little range and my cost of electricity suggests no 'fuel' savings at all


The interior of the Audi is as far ahead of Tesla as Tesla is with AP. The Audi feels rich and upscale and premium where no Tesla does. They all have their trade-offs. It needs better battery tech, but here is a Tesla owner looking to go over to the etron because where you spend your time is significantly nicer


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## JasonF (Oct 26, 2018)

SR22pilot said:


> There is a saying that goes "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."


That's just it - I don't think there's any malice. I think it's simply that Consumer Reports don't consider Tesla part of the "auto industry" - they still see it as a boutique manufacturer, and not something that their core middle class subscribers would be interested in buying anyway.



StromTrooperM3 said:


> The interior of the Audi is as far ahead of Tesla as Tesla is with AP. The Audi feels rich and upscale and premium where no Tesla does. They all have their trade-offs. It needs better battery tech, but here is a Tesla owner looking to go over to the etron because where you spend your time is significantly nicer


I like this post, because you've described perfectly what a "luxury market" looks for. You want specific creature comforts in the car, and you're willing to both pay more and compromise on everything else. The term "luxury car" has become so muddied that it creates even more confusion around the Model 3.

The Model 3 is positoning as a _mass market_ car. When the press calls it a "luxury" model, half the people expect that they're getting something like Mercedes E-Class, Porsche, or Audi's high-end models at a bargain price, and then they're disappointed; the other half resist looking at it because they just assume it's priced like a Mercedes, Porsche, or Audi.


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## StromTrooperM3 (Mar 27, 2019)

JasonF said:


> I like this post, because you've described perfectly what a "luxury market" looks for. You want specific creature comforts in the car, and you're willing to both pay more and compromise on everything else


When you spend 75k every 18 months on a vehicle we do want specific nice materials, tastefully done lighting, high end materials on every surface.

You made compromises buying a Tesla vs a luxury brand. There is no perfect car we all make compromises. The 50 miles a day I drive doesn't require a 300 mile range. Good thing there is no shortage of choices out there


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## garsh (Apr 4, 2016)

I just got done test driving an Audi etron at the LA Auto Show. It's a nice SUV. Much nicer than my old Nissan Leaf. 😉


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## StromTrooperM3 (Mar 27, 2019)

garsh said:


> I just got done test driving an Audi etron at the LA Auto Show. It's a nice SUV. Much nicer than my old Nissan Leaf. 😉


New Etron GT looks fantastic. Waiting for the release of that before the Tesla goes away.

Interior of the Etron absolutely blows even the X out of the water fit, finish, options, massaging seats, sound system, literally everything


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## garsh (Apr 4, 2016)

StromTrooperM3 said:


> New Etron GT looks fantastic. Waiting for the release of that before the Tesla goes away.


Got to see that too. It looks nice. I'm not as blown away by it as you are, but it's a fine looking vehicle.










> Interior of the Etron absolutely blows even the X out of the water fit, finish, options, massaging seats, sound system, literally everything


Yep. I like the design simplicity of a Tesla interior, (and the seats are the best I've ever had in a vehicle), but other car companies do a much better job with fit, finish, and feel of the interior.
I think you're way, way wrong on sound system though. Tesla totally nailed that on the 3.


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## StromTrooperM3 (Mar 27, 2019)

garsh said:


> Tesla totally nailed that on the 3.


It's good, but it's similar comparing Sony to Martin Logan. There is a massive gap in sound quality, power, and number of speakers.

Sorry but the Tesla can't be compared Audi in the sound department

Up to 23 fully active loudspeakers
Two moving tweeters on the dashboard (Acoustic Lens Technology)
Sealed loudspeaker boxes
Solid aluminum loudspeaker cover
ICEpower amplifier & DSP amplifier
Up to 1920 Watt of amplification power
But I'm the guy not thinking twice on spending 7k on a speaker system upgrade because that's part of the experience of driving a high end automobile


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## Nom (Oct 30, 2018)

I drove a 2013 A4 with the upgraded sound package before my M3. M3 is a superior car in many ways. Love driving it way more.

That said, the sound in the Audi was better. Not way better. But better. I compared back and forth with same songs. Nod to Audi.

I have no idea about the eTron. But I can believe @StromTrooperM3 on this.

Audi's interiors are a thing of beauty - but I'm digging the M3 sleek and clean vibe right now.


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## StromTrooperM3 (Mar 27, 2019)

Nom said:


> I drove a 2013 A4 with the upgraded sound package before my M3


My buddy just got a 2014 A4 and let me take it for a spin the other day. Today he came over and I let him drive my DM M3. He couldn't shut up about how good his Audi was. After today's test drive he said he couldn't imagine driving anything other than my Tesla

I will tell you from comparing his A4, not sure if it had the upgraded system or not, definitely had more bass and a fuller sound at lower volumes. I find myself listening to music much louder than I'd like just to get the bass in the Tesla


Nom said:


> Audi's interiors are a thing of beauty - but I'm digging the M3 sleek and clean vibe right now.


I chose my M3 over an S because I liked the simplicity as well. I immediately thought the single screen was a better design. The haptic feedback in the Audi is a nice touch though and I do like it. Technology changes a lot from 2013. If you're bored one day go check out the Etron Prestige the double pane glass is another huge leg up in the luxury experience.

Tesla has A LOT going for them. But there are sacrifices in any brand. For my needs the Etron checks all the boxes


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## Dr. J (Sep 1, 2017)

Not exactly "news."

At the barbershop, a gentleman came in talking (not asking) about my Tesla, getting a lot of details wrong. He asked me if I knew how Elon did that trick with increasing range and power. Umm, over the air updates? His theory was that *50% of the Tesla battery is reserved *and Tesla gradually gives out a little more as the battery degrades, because, you know, just like your cell phone, that battery is gonna degrade. Umm, about 4% of the battery is reserved, and this battery is a different chemistry than your cell phone battery. Our barber mentioned that the gentleman is an Audi salesman. Ah! The guy was generally complimentary about the car, and especially the 0-60 2.9 second acceleration he had personally experienced (apparently in Model S 100D). Still, the misinformation seemed weird until....

"The U.S. car [e-tron] also is saddled with a bit of extra baggage from the EPA: a range estimate of just 204 miles, a disappointing number in this class. Audi is defensive about this figure, ....The I-Pace is EPA rated at 234 miles, and the least expensive Model X hits 250 miles. Audi provides plenty of reasoning for the low number, namely that *the e-tron only uses 88 percent of its 95.3-kWh battery capacity for the sake of longevity and repeatable performance*." [emphasis added]
Source: https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/a27534631/2019-audi-e-tron-by-the-numbers/

Ah, ha! Defensive is the right word.  Elon must seem like a freakin' magician to an Audi salesman.


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## StromTrooperM3 (Mar 27, 2019)

I recently went to look at one again this week but they recently sold the last one in inventory. However talking with the sales manager and team it seems Audi takes a different approach to the mileage rating.

They told me that they use a worse case number. 5 full passengers, full cargo, heat on etc at worse you'll get 200 miles. Most clients are reporting real world about 240... Again just hearsay of what they told me. I wish there was a middle ground somewhere in this rating scale because I have to realllllly have to try to get 300+ miles from my AWD 3. I get closer to 270 real world


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## tencate (Jan 11, 2018)

StromTrooperM3 said:


> I get closer to 270 real world


Range ratings are a funny thing. You can drive 40 miles an hour and supposedly go 450 miles on a charge. But who does that? Just the guys having fun trying to prove a point. We'll just have to wait for real world experiences. For many people, the range of the Audi will be plenty for what they use it for. Me? I'd love an Audi but simply couldn't afford it. Before the Model 3, I _really_ wanted a nice (lightly used) A5 but really glad I went with the Model 3.


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## garsh (Apr 4, 2016)

StromTrooperM3 said:


> I get closer to 270 real world


I get closer to 245 miles.



garsh said:


> An additional useful fact I learned on the last leg of this trip. There was one especially-long leg that I was able to make due to the availability of destination charging at Cornell, and lucky placement of a supercharger at the end of my car's range. Real-world, 70 mph usable range of my Performance Model 3 with OEM 20" wheels & tires is going to be about 245 miles. This was in about 80° F weather. I started off with a full 100% charge (last I checked, that now equates to 302 miles showing on my car), and arrived at the supercharger with 5% charge. Interestingly, the car was predicting I would arrive with 5% battery from the very beginning of the trip, all of the way to the end - I was very impressed by that. Remember folks, the 310 mile advertised range applies at about 60 mph - driving faster reduces that range.
> 
> https://abetterrouteplanner.com/?plan_uuid=36290234-5b83-4cb5-bb0b-b906f381839a
> 
> View attachment 28106


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## Needsdecaf (Dec 27, 2018)

StromTrooperM3 said:


> I recently went to look at one again this week but they recently sold the last one in inventory. However talking with the sales manager and team it seems Audi takes a different approach to the mileage rating.
> 
> They told me that they use a worse case number. 5 full passengers, full cargo, heat on etc at worse you'll get 200 miles. Most clients are reporting real world about 240... Again just hearsay of what they told me. I wish there was a middle ground somewhere in this rating scale because I have to realllllly have to try to get 300+ miles from my AWD 3. I get closer to 270 real world


Lol, whoever told you that is full of crap. The EPA ratings come from standardized tests on a dyno, not some unicorn fully loaded road test. What an idiot.


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## StromTrooperM3 (Mar 27, 2019)

Needsdecaf said:


> Lol, whoever told you that is full of crap. The EPA ratings come from standardized tests on a dyno, not some unicorn fully loaded road test. What an idiot.


My point is range ratings go out the window depending on driving style. If you floor your Tesla from every light like I do you'll never get 300 miles of range.

And since I'm actively looking at one to replace my model 3, my research has found people are getting more than 200 miles of range


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## Needsdecaf (Dec 27, 2018)

StromTrooperM3 said:


> My point is range ratings go out the window depending on driving style. If you floor your Tesla from every light like I do you'll never get 300 miles of range.
> 
> And since I'm actively looking at one to replace my model 3, my research has found people are getting more than 200 miles of range


Not doubting that. My point was simply that car sales people spew the most gorgeously egregious BS ever.


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## StromTrooperM3 (Mar 27, 2019)

Needsdecaf said:


> Not doubting that. My point was simply that car sales people spew the most gorgeously egregious BS ever.


I was told on my model 3 test drive it had the same biohazard HEPA filter mode as the S. even the mods of this forum have posted multiple warnings to not believe what Tesla staff tells you without doing your own research.

An educated consumer is the best consumer.


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## Needsdecaf (Dec 27, 2018)

StromTrooperM3 said:


> I was told on my model 3 test drive it had the same biohazard HEPA filter mode as the S. even the mods of this forum have posted multiple warnings to not believe what Tesla staff tells you without doing your own research.
> 
> An educated consumer is the best consumer.


yup. I wasn't being brand specific with my statement. I've heard some seriously bad ones across all brands in my life.


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## Needsdecaf (Dec 27, 2018)

https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a33084340/audi-e-tron-s-revealed/
So there's now a tri-motor "S" version. That's slower than a Model Y LRAWD???

what a turd.


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## dimani (Jul 14, 2020)

You know, from a powertrain point of view there is no game between model 3/y and the e-tron.

Fact is about the average final (l)user that can go crazy about "oh my gosh, a new electric Audi, so fancy, so nice, so sporty, with tons of displays and s***load of buttons, seat massages, voice commands, Vorsprung der Technic, das Auto, German made best car in da world...", then disconnect the brain and buy it.


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## JasonF (Oct 26, 2018)

The one thing that disturbs me most about the Audi/Mercedes/BMW German trio is that they build cars assuming it's the buyer's duty is to trade it in for a new one in a very specific time. If you don't, you get stuck with very expensive repairs, lack of parts, and unhelpfulness from the dealer, because you broke your social contract to upgrade.


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## Needsdecaf (Dec 27, 2018)

JasonF said:


> The one thing that disturbs me most about the Audi/Mercedes/BMW German trio is that they build cars assuming it's the buyer's duty is to trade it in for a new one in a very specific time. If you don't, you get stuck with very expensive repairs, lack of parts, and unhelpfulness from the dealer, because you broke your social contract to upgrade.


This has not been my experience. Expensive repairs? Yes, they are expensive. Lack of parts ans undhelpdul dealer? Not at all.

Coming back to this post in the morning...lack of parts and an unhelpful dealer is the definition of Tesla service. I have a wind noise on my car. Next appointment? Oh, two and a half weeks out. Can't guarantee you a loaner (and if I do get one it will be filthy).

Parts for my spoiler repair? Three weeks for a known issue.

Need a 12v battery? That'll be a few weeks and your car is undrivable. WTF, I can get a 12v battery of any sort within 5 minutes of leaving my house. Come ON Tesla.

Trying to reach someone to understand the status of my car's service? Just send a text. We'll respond. Eventually.

Yes, you pay for your thrills. My Porsche dealer charges about $350 for what amounts to an oil change. Which I can do for about $80 in parts. Yes, you don't need to do that in a Tesla. But the grass is not always greener on the other side. Tesla has a LONG way to go. Even Ryan McCaffery of the RTL podcast admits the same, and he is a pretty die-hard Tesla fanboy by his own admission. If these cars actually needed regular service, Tesla would be in SERIOUS trouble.


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## Needsdecaf (Dec 27, 2018)

This was posted by an ETron owner in my local Porsche group FB page. I'm glad I didn't succumb to the massive discounts and buy one.

_Before reading the rest of this story or trying to rationalize a bad decision let me please start with this part of the story:

Currently, our 2nd e-Tron has been at the dealership for 5 weeks straight with no return date in sight. Keep in mind this is our 2nd e-Tron and the 1st one ended up being bought back by Audi to avoid Lemon Law and a branded title. The car's current diagnosis is that a couple of the battery cells have failed so instead of replacing the whole battery pack (knowing full well they are dealing with a customer who has had a terrible experience) they want to replace only the cells that are bad. To do this the dealership needs a special battery tool that is shared by the dealerships in the region (I am in Houston, TX). I am not sure how big the region is but I have been told there are 6 of these tools that are shared. Now also keep this in mind, the e-Tron is not exactly flying off the shelves and to get one of these special tools there is a multi-month long wait as the wait list is long. Think what that means for the failure rate. Not good.

Ok, so to get on with our story:

E-Tron #1
- Took delivery in June 2019 with buy back in Jan 2020
- Issues: several small problems (first problem occurred within 12 hours of ownership) too numerous to list but many were very annoying. One such issue was the tailgate simply opening if you were within 6 feet of it. This was somehow tied to the "kick to open" feature but was confirmed by the dealership you didn't have to be even remotely close to the vehicle and even specifically near the rear for this to happen. The car on multiple occasions simply lost half of it's range. This was diagnosed as a problem with the battery control module. This was replaced multiple times. On the final incident, the virtual ****pit lit up like a christmas tree listening motor failure, regenerative braking failure, drive system failure, and many others. Of course, this wasn't the first time had numerous faults at one time. This last incident was in December 2019. Ultimately this lead to the buyback by Audi (a painful process and the initial offer was insulting). Ultimately we got a decent offer and rolled the dice to try our luck on a 2nd one. The service manager we dealt with is a great guy and kept me up to date on the final attempt to fix it. Even though Audi bought the car back they still tried to fix it to learn all they can. They spent over $65k and could never fix it. This car had 5k miles on it.

E-Tron #2
- Took deliver in Jan 2020 and have now requested buy back process July 2020
- Issues: Car had several small issues. Weirdly the first issue we had was the exact same as car #1 which was an issue with the Exit Warning system. It has several build quality issues with regard to weather seals in the doors and the license plate lights. We have had a few issues with the warning lights that happen because the system simply can process startup fast enough so you need to stop the car and make then restart (minor but annoying). The most current issue is the one listed above. The car has lost 100 miles of range (140ish is max range at full charge). Also the max power is 80% (for those with an e-Tron this is the gauge that replaces a Tach). The car has now been at the dealer for 5 weeks. The car has a whopping 2900 miles on it. We have now initiated a buyback so will see where that goes.

Both cars of course use the Audi app for remote start and other features. This app is terrible and often can't connect to the car. You can read many threads about this and of course if you like to charge your car at one of the Electrify America chargers and the app is not working, good luck you are paying out of pocket._


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## JasonF (Oct 26, 2018)

Needsdecaf said:


> Yes, you pay for your thrills. My Porsche dealer charges about $350 for what amounts to an oil change. Which I can do for about $80 in parts. Yes, you don't need to do that in a Tesla. But the grass is not always greener on the other side. Tesla has a LONG way to go. Even Ryan McCaffery of the RTL podcast admits the same, and he is a pretty die-hard Tesla fanboy by his own admission. If these cars actually needed regular service, Tesla would be in SERIOUS trouble.


That's certainly true - I tell people who think about buying a Tesla that it's no longer hand-holding concierge service it used to be, so if you're coming from one of the German brands or a luxury supercar brand, you'll be very disappointed. I had a Mitsubishi before this, and it set my expectation level for service - so Tesla's service issues are only mildly irritating to me. I had difficulty reaching Mitsubishi for scheduling service and service updates as well.

But the thing is, Mitsubishi stopped caring about the U.S. market intentionally, so that probably won't get better. Tesla will eventually improve once they've decided to reorganize the service infrastructure. It's not going to go back to hand-holding concierge level, but at least maybe they'll be able to process service requests through quickly and simply someday.

What I referred to with German brands, that has to do with expectations. That when you buy one of the German brands, keeping it well beyond the warranty expires is not considered "normal" behavior for a buyer of those cars, it's almost aberrant behavior. The reason they can get away with charging so much to repair them is that there isn't much sympathy for people who keep older ones, and not much pressure to make it more affordable. After all, at that level of luxury, you're supposed to have traded it in already by now.

And that's also one of the things I was hoping Telsa would let go of when expanding into Model 3. That it would have a shift in its "normalcy" to people willing to keep their cars going for 8 or 10 years, and actually make it viable to do so. Obviously none of them have reached that point yet, so we'll see.


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## Needsdecaf (Dec 27, 2018)

JasonF said:


> What I referred to with German brands, that has to do with expectations. That when you buy one of the German brands, keeping it well beyond the warranty expires is not considered "normal" behavior for a buyer of those cars, it's almost aberrant behavior. The reason they can get away with charging so much to repair them is that there isn't much sympathy for people who keep older ones, and not much pressure to make it more affordable. After all, at that level of luxury, you're supposed to have traded it in already by now..


I guess I just disagree with this sentiment. This has never been my experience with either BMW or Porsche. Especially Porsche where some older cars have more value than newer ones.


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## iChris93 (Feb 3, 2017)

Needsdecaf said:


> Especially Porsche where some older cars have more value than newer ones.


A lot of people love their air-cooled Porsches.


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## Mr. Spacely (Feb 28, 2019)

Needsdecaf said:


> If these cars actually needed regular service, Tesla would be in SERIOUS trouble.


But that's the point. They don't need service. My car is 16 months old. It has been flawless. Took it in for HW3 upgrade, replaced the wiper blades and rotated the tires. Appointment was very smooth.


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## Needsdecaf (Dec 27, 2018)

Mr. Spacely said:


> But that's the point. They don't need service. My car is 16 months old. It has been flawless. Took it in for HW3 upgrade, replaced the wiper blades and rotated the tires. Appointment was very smooth.


How do you figure that? They do still need service. They just don't need routine maintenance. Trust me, the service centers around here are not wonting for things to do. Can't even get a loaner when you schedule service half the time. When I do schedule service, it's almost always over a week out, and not with a pick of times either.

I'm glad you got a flawless car. I've on my second and between them have been in for service a half dozen times. And that's not an abberation. I'm not complaining, the items have been relatively small. But they are still there, and they still need fixing. Tesla acts like because the cars need far less regular maintenance, that servicing the cars is some kind of big deal. Their communication, whether on service or purchase, is poor at best.

Perhaps I've been lucky to have excellent dealers (or unlucky to have seen them as often as I have, lol). But Tesla's service is just not good.


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## MnLakeBum (Mar 17, 2021)

Needsdecaf said:


> How do you figure that? They do still need service. They just don't need routine maintenance. Trust me, the service centers around here are not wonting for things to do. Can't even get a loaner when you schedule service half the time. When I do schedule service, it's almost always over a week out, and not with a pick of times either.
> 
> I'm glad you got a flawless car. I've on my second and between them have been in for service a half dozen times. And that's not an abberation. I'm not complaining, the items have been relatively small. But they are still there, and they still need fixing. Tesla acts like because the cars need far less regular maintenance, that servicing the cars is some kind of big deal. Their communication, whether on service or purchase, is poor at best.
> 
> Perhaps I've been lucky to have excellent dealers (or unlucky to have seen them as often as I have, lol). But Tesla's service is just not good.


Compared to the German brands or even Range Rover, the service at Tesla is not close to as good. I know as I've had my 2015 Model S serviced for the eMMC, four times for door handles, new brake pads/rotors, a steering problem, a 12V battery, and recently the HV battery pack replaced. Our 2018 Range Rover has 48,000 miles and has only been in for oil changes and a 30,000 mile service. Our 2014 and 2015 (43k and 87k miles) Audis have not had anything other than routine oil changes and one had new brake pads/rotors. I replace simple things like air filters as recommended on all my vehicles.

My neighbors and friends mostly own German vehicles and most would not be happy with Tesla service. They also don't like the body fit and finish or interior luxury of my Model S. 5 color choices that rarely are updated is also a disappointment. As the new electric vehicles are released that have better paint, fit and finish, and interiors than Tesla, many of the people I know will flock to them. I personally can overlook the fit and finish of my Tesla but I'm really tired of the 9 year old body style. I may be able to overlook it for the 2 second 0-60 time of the plaid but my guess is I'll wind up in an Audi E Tron GT next year because the styling, fit and finish, and service/dealer experience are all much better than Tesla.


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## francoisp (Sep 28, 2018)

MnLakeBum said:


> Compared to the German brands or even Range Rover, the service at Tesla is not close to as good. I know as I've had my 2015 Model S serviced for the eMMC, four times for door handles, new brake pads/rotors, a steering problem, a 12V battery, and recently the HV battery pack replaced. Our 2018 Range Rover has 48,000 miles and has only been in for oil changes and a 30,000 mile service. Our 2014 and 2015 (43k and 87k miles) Audis have not had anything other than routine oil changes and one had new brake pads/rotors. I replace simple things like air filters as recommended on all my vehicles.
> 
> My neighbors and friends mostly own German vehicles and most would not be happy with Tesla service. They also don't like the body fit and finish or interior luxury of my Model S. 5 color choices that rarely are updated is also a disappointment. As the new electric vehicles are released that have better paint, fit and finish, and interiors than Tesla, many of the people I know will flock to them. I personally can overlook the fit and finish of my Tesla but I'm really tired of the 9 year old body style. I may be able to overlook it for the 2 second 0-60 time of the plaid but my guess is I'll wind up in an Audi E Tron GT next year because the styling, fit and finish, and service/dealer experience are all much better than Tesla.


Tesla's cars are more efficient and have a better charging network but at one point people are going to ask how often do they need to travel away from home and what's the value of 20 or 30 extra miles per charge compared to a reliable car with a nice fit and finish.


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## JasonF (Oct 26, 2018)

MnLakeBum said:


> As the new electric vehicles are released that have better paint, fit and finish, and interiors than Tesla, many of the people I know will flock to them.


I think you have to look at what Tesla is trying to become rather than what it was. It's not a failing luxury brand, it's a brand trying to push into mainstream, competing with GM, Toyota, and Ford. As they do that, they're certain to lose a lot of the luxury buyers anyway, because one of the most important things to luxury buyers is a feeling of exclusivity - buying a brand of car that hardly anyone has access to. If Teslas are driving around everywhere, it's going to look less attractive to those buyers. I mean, look at what happened to Ferrari for example - they started producing more accessible models, and they lost a ton of luxury-seeking buyers to other brands that are less accessible.

Part of that journey is that with the huge volume of vehicles involved in going mainstream, Tesla can no longer invest in hand-holding personal concierge service that high-end luxury brands can. It's not so much a matter of money, but just having to keep up with an insurmountable number of their cars being sold, delivered, and serviced. When you sell 1 thousand cars a year, personal concierge is easy. When it's 1 million, it becomes an unsolvable problem.

The manufacturing issues, though, that's something Tesla really does need to work out. The danger of competing with Ford, GM, and Toyota is if you make a car that's less familiar than those three, and also has more mechanical issues, you'll lose out to them very quickly, even if you make a superior product.


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## Needsdecaf (Dec 27, 2018)

JasonF said:


> I think you have to look at what Tesla is trying to become rather than what it was. It's not a failing luxury brand, it's a brand trying to push into mainstream, competing with GM, Toyota, and Ford. As they do that, they're certain to lose a lot of the luxury buyers anyway, because one of the most important things to luxury buyers is a feeling of exclusivity - buying a brand of car that hardly anyone has access to. If Teslas are driving around everywhere, it's going to look less attractive to those buyers. I mean, look at what happened to Ferrari for example - they started producing more accessible models, and they lost a ton of luxury-seeking buyers to other brands that are less accessible.
> 
> Part of that journey is that with the huge volume of vehicles involved in going mainstream, Tesla can no longer invest in hand-holding personal concierge service that high-end luxury brands can. It's not so much a matter of money, but just having to keep up with an insurmountable number of their cars being sold, delivered, and serviced. When you sell 1 thousand cars a year, personal concierge is easy. When it's 1 million, it becomes an unsolvable problem.
> 
> The manufacturing issues, though, that's something Tesla really does need to work out. The danger of competing with Ford, GM, and Toyota is if you make a car that's less familiar than those three, and also has more mechanical issues, you'll lose out to them very quickly, even if you make a superior product.


There is a big difference between concierge service and no service. Tesla is solidly very close to the latter.

They have the resources to do better. It's just not their mandate to do so.


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## JasonF (Oct 26, 2018)

Needsdecaf said:


> There is a big difference between concierge service and no service. Tesla is solidly very close to the latter.
> 
> They have the resources to do better. It's just not their mandate to do so.


I don't know about you in particular, but generally when the conversation about Tesla's service comes up, comparisons to high-end luxury brands' service is inevitably made. I can understand that, because quite a lot of the Model 3 early purchasers came from those high-end luxury brands, since Tesla still carried the reputation of being one of them from when they only had the Model S and X. But they were disappointed by a company in transtition.

I'm not saying Tesla service is great right now. They're so close though - the automated and mobile options are _really_ nice, but they need to close the loop and integrate the rest of their service system properly with it. It would be really nice if you have a car issue at 2 am to be able to obtain car diagnostics and schedule mobile service or a roadside assistance pickup without having to talk to anyone if you wish. It's the exact opposite of concierge service, but it would be brilliant.


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## Needsdecaf (Dec 27, 2018)

JasonF said:


> I don't know about you in particular, but generally when the conversation about Tesla's service comes up, comparisons to high-end luxury brands' service is inevitably made. I can understand that, because quite a lot of the Model 3 early purchasers came from those high-end luxury brands, since Tesla still carried the reputation of being one of them from when they only had the Model S and X. But they were disappointed by a company in transtition.
> 
> I'm not saying Tesla service is great right now. They're so close though - the automated and mobile options are _really_ nice, but they need to close the loop and integrate the rest of their service system properly with it. It would be really nice if you have a car issue at 2 am to be able to obtain car diagnostics and schedule mobile service or a roadside assistance pickup without having to talk to anyone if you wish. It's the exact opposite of concierge service, but it would be brilliant.


I just see their attitude as...lacking. They don't view themselves as a service company. With two purchases and a bunch of service appointments, the feeling I get is that they aren't taught or incentivized to provide good service. It shows in the way they handle questions, issues, etc. The best thing I can say is that when you are able to get mobile service, that has been great and those techs do seem to actually care. But the inside service techs and especially the people who are in Nevada well, damn, that's an entirely different ball of wax.

I mean, I once had someone from Tesla flat out tell me that they didn't have time to do something to complete my purchase, that was completely their job and not something I could actually do. Fortunately one of the gallery sales people stepped up and did it out of embarrassment. But I mean, really, how do you even say that to someone?


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## NR4P (Jul 14, 2018)

Lots of comments here about service and fixing the car. I have few issues with fixing the car. 

But Tesla customer service is horrible. CS includes projecting delivery dates, helping with trade ins and financing, solving credit issues when overcharged. Being able to call someone directly at local service center without phone tree hell 

Case in point is the horrible communications on S and X refreshes. If you are one of those deposit holders you know what I mean. And when a SuperCharger has a broken, plug I called a month ago and still not fixed. 800#s were removed from Superchargers months ago here. 

This is where Tesla is lacking.


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## francoisp (Sep 28, 2018)

Needsdecaf said:


> I just see their attitude as...lacking. They don't view themselves as a service company. With two purchases and a bunch of service appointments, the feeling I get is that they aren't taught or incentivized to provide good service. It shows in the way they handle questions, issues, etc. The best thing I can say is that when you are able to get mobile service, that has been great and those techs do seem to actually care. But the inside service techs and especially the people who are in Nevada well, damn, that's an entirely different ball of wax.
> 
> I mean, I once had someone from Tesla flat out tell me that they didn't have time to do something to complete my purchase, that was completely their job and not something I could actually do. Fortunately one of the gallery sales people stepped up and did it out of embarrassment. But I mean, really, how do you even say that to someone?


The big, huge, difference between Tesla and a dealer network is that for Tesla service is considered a cost and for the dealer network it's a revenue. That sums it all.


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## GDN (Oct 30, 2017)

The complaints about Tesla and their service, and I know many of them exist and they are legit, is actually one of the big drawbacks to not having dealers. Tesla/Musk is taking all the profit of the car, cutting out a middleman/dealer. However the flip side of this and it is a real thing - if you aren't happy, you are fighting a multi-billion dollar organization that may be across the country from you. If you had a dealer, a local guy who got cut in on the profits and he needed to make you happy and treat you right for those profits so you didn't go down the street to another dealer - well, then we wouldn't have some of these issues/complaints.

We are not going to get our cake and eat it too. However Tesla is right now, because they are taking all the profits and doing little at the local level/service center to keep customers happy and resolve complaints.


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## Needsdecaf (Dec 27, 2018)

francoisp said:


> The big, huge, difference between Tesla and a dealer network is that for Tesla service is considered a cost and for the dealer network it's a revenue. That sums it all.


Ok, that's true. However, it really doesn't mean anything. Why?

For the majority of retail operations, customer service is a cost. Restaurant, hospitality, non-durable goods, etc. Customer service is customer service. It's supporting your product. It's properly acknowledging and tracking your order. Following up on satisfaction. Troubleshooting issues. Etc. Amazon's customer service is not a profit center. My grocery store has a customer service department for when I buy an expired item. It's a cost. Sales are their profit center And yet, they don't ignore it. Why?

Satisfied customers lead to repeat sales and referrals. Pissed off customers lead to the opposite.

Tesla has no formal advertising budget. They have social media, run by Elon and, wait for it......

Referrals.

Customer service is done every day, by literally millions of working people in this country. I'd wager that 95% of them don't actually have the term "customer service" in their title. Their title is "sales person", "clerk", "manager", "processor", etc. Customer service isn't a department. It's literally the foundation of what business is built upon. My company doesn't have a single "customer service" person, but every outward facing employee is in the customer service business. How they represent the company is reflected by how they engage our clients. Every day they show up to work.

This is not a corporate culture at Tesla. It needs to be. It needs to be with every company. And the more expensive the good, the higher the expectation.


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## iChris93 (Feb 3, 2017)

GDN said:


> However the flip side of this and it is a real thing - if you aren't happy, you are fighting a multi-billion dollar organization that may be across the country from you. If you had a dealer, a local guy who got cut in on the profits and he needed to make you happy and treat you right for those profits so you didn't go down the street to another dealer - well, then we wouldn't have some of these issues/complaints.


Apple has excellent "service" and they're over a trillion dollar company. Don't give Tesla excuses!


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## Mesprit87 (Oct 29, 2017)

JasonF said:


> Tesla can no longer invest in hand-holding personal concierge service that high-end luxury brands can.


There is a big gap between luxury service and a uber voucher.
Or when they even refuse to show me the part they replaced...

But to add on the thread subject, Tesla doesn't deliver on time, maybe that's a good thing. You can see every big manufacturer rushing to push out new models and break their neck. VW was wise enough to delay the ID at least.

Like any company, Tesla needs concurrence and it's coming. Why would they bother offering at least a decent service when they keep selling cars at that pace.

I kept some of my cars for 20 years, now that's a concern for me (with any new car). Am I going to end up with a message saying "Tesla no longer support your old platform " like the tech companies have the habit to do? Microsoft XP comes to mind


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## Needsdecaf (Dec 27, 2018)

Mesprit87 said:


> There is a big gap between luxury service and a uber voucher.
> Or when they even refuse to show me the part they replaced...
> 
> But to add on the thread subject, Tesla doesn't deliver on time, maybe that's a good thing. You can see every big manufacturer rushing to push out new models and break their neck. VW was wise enough to delay the ID at least.
> ...


Yes. It's already happening with the S/X on MCU1


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## JasonF (Oct 26, 2018)

Mesprit87 said:


> There is a big gap between luxury service and a uber voucher.
> Or when they even refuse to show me the part they replaced...


I referred specifically to lots of people I see that say "I got amazing service when I had a Mercedes"...or Lexus, or Ferrarri, or whatever. They always use higher-end luxury companies for comparison, and those _do_ have concierge-level service. They also don't comparatively (to the market, not to Tesla) sell a lot of cars, which is how they can do that.

If you can show me a Toyota or Nissan dealer giving concierge level hand-holding service to every customer, maybe that's actually something for Tesla to aspire to in its mainstream future. I'm sure there are some, but they wouldn't be the norm.


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## Mesprit87 (Oct 29, 2017)

I agree with you about the concierge level not exactly corresponding to the model 3 market but ALL other companies will supply a car if the work carried out takes a while and your car is still under warranty.


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## garsh (Apr 4, 2016)

Mesprit87 said:


> I agree with you about the concierge level not exactly corresponding to the model 3 market but ALL other companies will supply a car if the work carried out takes a while and your car is still under warranty.


I've NEVER had a dealer offer a vehicle. The best experience I had before Tesla was a Honda dealer who would take me home after dropping off the car. Most dealers I've bought from simply left it up to me to figure out how to get back home if a fix was going to take longer than a few hours.


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## Needsdecaf (Dec 27, 2018)

garsh said:


> I've NEVER had a dealer offer a vehicle. The best experience I had before Tesla was a Honda dealer who would take me home after dropping off the car. Most dealers I've bought from simply left it up to me to figure out how to get back home if a fix was going to take longer than a few hours.


Loaner policy is not brand specific, it's dealer specific. In general, higher end brands will do loaners, and lower not, but it definitely varies.

I got spoiled after a few years with BMW, Acura, Lexus, Volvo and Porsche. I got my VW and they were like "see ya". And I was like...oh yeah, whoops. Forgot about this part.


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