# Is Autopilot no longer unique to Tesla?



## garsh (Apr 4, 2016)

I'm on vacation in California, and I rented a Toyota Prius. My Prius has Dynamic Radar Cruise Control and Lane Tracing Assist. It also requires me to periodically put torque on the steering wheel to prove that I'm paying attention. It feels almost like using regular Autopilot in a Tesla!

There's even one feature that I prefer in Toyota's solution over Tesla's: if I take over the steering (to change lanes, for example), then as soon as I center the vehicle back in a lane, LTA takes over again without me having to reactivate it!

Has anybody else had similar "Autopilot experiences" with non-Tesla vehicles?


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## Power Surge (Jan 6, 2022)

I rented a new Nissan Rouge last year to drive from FL to NY, and it had the same type of setup as well. That was my first experience with any kind of adaptive cruise control. Well, really my only experience since my 18 doesn't have it. lol


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## msjulie (Feb 6, 2018)

My sister's prior Kia lease had 'smart' cruise (sorry don't know it's real name) and a lane keeping assist feature as well.


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## iChris93 (Feb 3, 2017)

The only experience I've had with other lane keeping features is that it will gently nudge you back into the lane if you are heading towards the lines. No real lane keep with centering. Granted, I don't have much experience. Only in a rental or two.


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## Bigriver (Jan 26, 2018)

The Pilot Assist on my Volvo is decent in many situations. The adaptive cruise control is at least as good as Tesla, and maybe better in some ways. It’s acceleration and deceleration have always more closely aligned to how I drive than the Tesla implementation. I have had absolutely zero phantom braking events in the Volvo.

The active steering assistance of the Volvo is pretty good on highways, steering curves and keeping the car in the lane. It requires hands on the wheel and gives nags at about the same frequency as Tesla. It disengages and re-engages on its own, with no audible warning, which I think is bad. (Conversely I think Tesla gives too many audible warnings, desensitizing me to them. On both the Volvo and Tesla the biggest autopilot danger, I think, is the times I think it is engaged, but is not.) The Volvo steering control is also not absolute, it’s more like we share control. Like, for instance, I can make it move more to the right or left in the lane while auto steering is engaged. On anything other than a major highway, the Volvo steering is useless. It can’t do the more aggressive curves.

Like Tesla, the Volvo also has a separate, passive lane-keeping feature that guards against drifting out of the lane. I don’t drift out of lanes often, so have little experience with that activation. 😏

As I’m more interested in pilot assistance than full autonomy, I might have been happy with the Volvo Pilot Assistance had I not experienced Tesla autopilot.


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## Power Surge (Jan 6, 2022)

Bigriver said:


> Conversely I think Tesla gives too many audible warnings, desensitizing me to them.


Have you tried putting the car in Joe Mode?


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## Bigriver (Jan 26, 2018)

Power Surge said:


> Have you tried putting the car in Joe Mode?


Yes, I use Joe Mode. My commentary wasn't about the loudness, but frequency. Just lots of audible sounds that have me desensitized. And I get a lot of audible "notifications" on my Teslas that I really don't know what it is notifying me of. Typical conversation in my car:
Passenger: "what was that?"
Me: "no idea"

Tesla owner since 2017.


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## Power Surge (Jan 6, 2022)

Bigriver said:


> Yes, I use Joe Mode. My commentary wasn't about the loudness, but frequency. Just lots of audible sounds that have me desensitized. And I get a lot of audible "notifications" on my Teslas that I really don't know what it is notifying me of. Typical conversation in my car:
> Passenger: "what was that?"
> Me: "no idea"
> 
> Tesla owner since 2017.


Hmm, ok. I thought Joe Mode was supposed to turn off most notification sounds other than major ones, like veering off the road. My 18 is on Joe Mode, and the only two notifications I ever get is veering over a solid lane line, and if the car in front of me is slowing down rapidly and I am not. Other than that, I've never heard any other warning in my car.


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## shareef777 (Mar 10, 2019)

garsh said:


> I'm on vacation in California, and I rented a Toyota Prius. My Prius has Dynamic Radar Cruise Control and Lane Tracing Assist. It also requires me to periodically put torque on the steering wheel to prove that I'm paying attention. It feels almost like using regular Autopilot in a Tesla!
> 
> There's even one feature that I prefer in Toyota's solution over Tesla's: if I take over the steering (to change lanes, for example), then as soon as I center the vehicle back in a lane, LTA takes over again without me having to reactivate it!
> 
> Has anybody else had similar "Autopilot experiences" with non-Tesla vehicles?


Nothing good. Every lane keep assist I've tried just doesn't keep me in the lane. It would shudder the wheel if I get close to the lane markings, but then would just disengage and I'd slowly drift out of the lane. It's more like a lane keep warning system then doing actually lane keeping.


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## TomT (Apr 1, 2019)

Power Surge said:


> Hmm, ok. I thought Joe Mode was supposed to turn off most notification sounds other than major ones, like veering off the road.


No, it just drops the volume.


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## JasonF (Oct 26, 2018)

garsh said:


> I'm on vacation in California, and I rented a Toyota Prius. My Prius has Dynamic Radar Cruise Control and Lane Tracing Assist. It also requires me to periodically put torque on the steering wheel to prove that I'm paying attention. It feels almost like using regular Autopilot in a Tesla!


I think I've mentioned before that this is one of the worrying pieces of the puzzle in Tesla's strategy: What do you do when you've been putting all of your bets in FSD for so long, that Autopilot suffers? The answer might be put _even more_ bets on FSD.

That's worrying for two reasons: One is FSD might not be ready for a _long_ time, and until then we'll watch everyone else's driver assist surpass it by a long way, or even that it becomes insufficient to meet regulatory demands and has to be discontinued until FSD is ready; And two, more concerning, is that FSD is going to figure into Tesla's base price on all models - meaning that Autopilot will be scrapped, all cars would come with FSD, and the base price of the cars will increase by $15,000 to $20,000 to compensate.

I think the 2nd part is entirely possible because one of the flaws Elon Musk has is, he believes people will come up with the money somehow if it's a good deal, and the only limiting factor to price is competing models (since FSD would have no competition, the sky's the limit). He seems to not have never had the experience of having to finance, a bank saying no, we're not going to finance that, and having to find something cheaper. So I can totally see a SR Model 3 starting at $65,000 bundled with FSD, and Elon Musk telling people that have to finance it that we can bring the monthly payment down by having the car do Uber/Lyft work while we're not using it, but completely missing that a lot of the people who own Model 3's now wouldn't be able to convince a bank to finance $65,000. And then those people buy a Kia, Toyota, or Ford, and feel like Tesla stabbed them in the back. That's where Musk's vision for the future might be overreaching, and ultimately might damage the brand.

I might be wrong here. It could just be that this is where the price of _all_ new cars is headed, and either the financing structure is revamped to handle it (i.e. payments for 10+ years to keep the payment lower) or new cars will simply be aimed at people with high enough incomes, and everyone else buys used. Or maybe leasing becomes the most common choice because that's the only way to get an affordable payment, and we move more toward a "you don't own anything" future. But if I'm not wrong, now would be the time to convince Elon Musk to take a more critical look and weigh what he wants Tesla's customer base to be in 5 years.


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## SalisburySam (Jun 6, 2018)

JasonF said:


> It could just be that this is where the price of _all_ new cars is headed, and either the financing structure is revamped to handle it (i.e. payments for 10+ years to keep the payment lower) or new cars will simply be aimed at people with high enough incomes, and everyone else buys used. Or maybe leasing becomes the most common choice because that's the only way to get an affordable payment, and we move more toward a "you don't own anything" future.


Vehicle prices have been escalating for a hundred years or so, nothing new here. Income had been increasing as well, though at a much lower rate. Some of your suggestions have already happened…it was rare to finance a car 45-or-so years ago for longer than 3 years, then 4, then 5, now 6 is common with some 7-year loans available. Given inflation and stagnant or declining incomes for most but hugely increasing incomes for the top 5%-15%, it is as you say: new cars, especially more expensive EVs, will target the 15%'ers. The rest of us get used (interpret that as you wish). Leasing/renting has a role, but there may be a resurgence of public transportation as well, something that hasn't fared well after the automobile became very popular and pervasive throughout the economy in all but a few very dense areas like the Northeast US. Even streetcars, a common transportation device of even small cities 100 years ago, are seeing a bit of a comeback as local light rail. Elon's stated desires to the contrary, I see nothing that indicates a low- to moderately-priced EV coming from Tesla near term, likely never. For a decade or so, the Nissan LEAF has been the low-priced leader and will likely continue to wear that mantle as I look at price points for I3s, ID4s, Ioniq5s, GV60s, Polestar2s, iPaces, and so on.

One can dream however, and I really want an EQS.


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## shareef777 (Mar 10, 2019)

JasonF said:


> I think I've mentioned before that this is one of the worrying pieces of the puzzle in Tesla's strategy: What do you do when you've been putting all of your bets in FSD for so long, that Autopilot suffers? The answer might be put _even more_ bets on FSD.
> 
> That's worrying for two reasons: One is FSD might not be ready for a _long_ time, and until then we'll watch everyone else's driver assist surpass it by a long way, or even that it becomes insufficient to meet regulatory demands and has to be discontinued until FSD is ready; And two, more concerning, is that FSD is going to figure into Tesla's base price on all models - meaning that Autopilot will be scrapped, all cars would come with FSD, and the base price of the cars will increase by $15,000 to $20,000 to compensate.
> 
> ...


The law of supply and demand still applies. No matter how good the vehicles get, if people aren't willing to put up the money they'll either have to drop the price of FSD (which is unlikely) or offer vehicles without it at a lower price point.

I look at it like cabs/taxis, which go for $100k+. The same exact car without the medallion costs considerably less. FSD will just become the medallion and a business proposition.


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## JasonF (Oct 26, 2018)

SalisburySam said:


> Elon's stated desires to the contrary, I see nothing that indicates a low- to moderately-priced EV coming from Tesla near term, likely never. For a decade or so, the Nissan LEAF has been the low-priced leader and will likely continue to wear that mantle as I look at price points for I3s, ID4s, Ioniq5s, GV60s, Polestar2s, iPaces, and so on.


That's what led me to believe that either Elon decided himself, or the board or stockholders convinced him, that there was no way Tesla could produce a sub-$50k EV long-term, and it should move firmly back into high end luxury space where the margins are higher and Tesla can show off it's tech to the 15%-ers and leave the rest of the market to cheap ICE car producers until those get around to maybe producing low priced EV's decades from now. The thing is, that doesn't do much for converting us all to EV's - it's basically giving up on the dream entirely.

That also doesn't account for the elephant in the room. Remember, Kia exists right now because a couple of decades ago, Japanese manufacturers had heavy tarriffs, and the U.S. manufacturers had decided the same thing as now - that new cars were only for people with a lot of money, and everyone else should just buy used. Kia came along and offered a cheap but not quite well built alternative, but they were still attractive because you could buy your very own _new_ car for the price of a used one. And then Hyundai bought them out, and has recently started repositioning it as higher-end but sportier cars.

Well guess who the new Kia is in the world today? Xpeng, from China. They're already sending cars to Europe, and I believe it's only a matter of time before they take advantage of the giant hole in the U.S. EV market and start shipping them here. And just like happened to Kia, they will get a firm root into the market very quickly, and then the other automakers will virtually abandon the low-cost EV market to them.

I'm not against them doing just that; they might offer some good value. It's definitely not good for the U.S. or Japanese manufacturers, though. And long-term, I don't think the economy can stay healthy if all retail goods target only the top 10%-15% of earners.


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## JasonF (Oct 26, 2018)

shareef777 said:


> The law of supply and demand still applies. No matter how good the vehicles get, if people aren't willing to put up the money they'll either have to drop the price of FSD (which is unlikely) or offer vehicles without it at a lower price point.


It kind of doesn't apply anymore. There are a ton of manufacturing companies out there who don't sell much product, but instead attract investment based on the fact that they serve the luxury market. For example, this is what Disney is going for by converting their theme parks to entertainment only for the wealthiest people in the world. Maybe it works out that way for the companies, but I really don't want to see Tesla slim down to just a few ultra-luxury models, and mostly exist as investor-bait to make their money. That would mean the dream part of the company that made it attractive in the first place is dead.

No, I'm not whining about wanting to buy things I could never afford - I only get annoyed when either things I could afford are being intentionally moved out of my reach, or when promises are made about something becoming _more_ affordable, and then the exact opposite occurs. Like if something that was always within reach for the top 50%, or even 30% earners suddenly is moved to the top 10%. Sorry, unless you can suddenly make 5X the income you do now, you can't have this anymore.

I also don't relish the idea that if the entire dream of EV conversion is falling apart _this_ quickly, and all of the EV's being moved farther into luxury space, if I need to replace my Model 3 in 10-ish years, there's a good possibility that I'll have to abandon _my_ dream of driving an EV, because the only vehicles available under $80,000 will be used ICE vehicles.


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## shareef777 (Mar 10, 2019)

JasonF said:


> It kind of doesn't apply anymore. There are a ton of manufacturing companies out there who don't sell much product, but instead attract investment based on the fact that they serve the luxury market. For example, this is what Disney is going for by converting their theme parks to entertainment only for the wealthiest people in the world. Maybe it works out that way for the companies, but I really don't want to see Tesla slim down to just a few ultra-luxury models, and mostly exist as investor-bait to make their money. That would mean the dream part of the company that made it attractive in the first place is dead.


Uh, if people aren't buying you think they'll just close up shop!? They'll lower the price. My guess is that once FSD is out, there won't even be an option to buy it outright. Two tier subscription (personal/private use and robo-taxi fleet), but that won't be a reality for another decade+.


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## DocScott (Mar 6, 2019)

One place where the law of supply and demand "fails" is when part of the demand is for something pricey that shows off the buyer's wealth. There are a lot of brands/products where being unaffordable to most people is part of the point (although they don't usually say the quiet part out loud). It works fine for the producer, because they can sell in smallish quantities with a big profit margin. But there's no threat of an upstart competing on price, because if they try it they just get labelled as a cheap knock-off, even if they're comparable quality.

And it's not that it only happens in markets for things that don't have a function--it happens sometimes with wristwatches, right?

I think that's the kind of thing @Jason F is talking about. Supply and demand still works, sort of, in that there's a demand for the product that helps set the price. But the demand curve looks funny, not decreasing monotonically with increased price the way an introductory textbook suggests it "should."


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## JasonF (Oct 26, 2018)

shareef777 said:


> Uh, if people aren't buying you think they'll just close up shop!? They'll lower the price.


Not necessarily, these days. They might just shift the market they're in to one where people with a ton of money will throw it at them. An example of that would be Lucid, which is making no attempt at being mainstream at all. They want the ultra-luxury limited edition money. Every bit of logic says that they shouldn't be able to survive that way on sales alone - and that logic would be right. They survive in large part at people throwing money at them without buying a car, through investing.



shareef777 said:


> My guess is that once FSD is out, there won't even be an option to buy it outright. Two tier subscription (personal/private use and robo-taxi fleet), but that won't be a reality for another decade+.


Circling back to the original topic, I think that depends a lot on how far behind Autopilot gets from other manufacturers by the time FSD comes out, and whether it can inherit anything from FSD. I've seen that FSD and AP are diverging more and more as FSD is developed. Which means there is a good chance at some point AP might be scrapped, and FSD will be the only option. But rather than fall behind other companies further by not including _any _driver assist by default, FSD may become non-optional, which means they would wrap the cost into the base price. That was the basis of my logic above. But, where I could be wrong is maybe Tesla will be a little more charitable to compete, and give AP all of the features of FSD except the ability to drive unattended. And then _you_ would be right, because it would make no sense to flat-price unattended driving.



DocScott said:


> I think that's the kind of thing @Jason F is talking about. Supply and demand still works, sort of, in that there's a demand for the product that helps set the price. But the demand curve looks funny, not decreasing monotonically with increased price the way an introductory textbook suggests it "should."


Mostly, yes. I'm also talking about the tendency of certain products, like high-end cars, to be introduced mostly as investment bait. Like Lucid that I mentioned above, they announce a high-end luxury car and that it will be limited edition, and you can put a deposit on it now. The money from the deposits isn't enough to sustain the company, but the fact that they've announced to something attracts heavy investment - which does sustain the company. These days, a company can sustain itself simply by announcing vaporware every year and attracting new investment.


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## SalisburySam (Jun 6, 2018)

JasonF said:


> The thing is, that doesn't do much for converting us all to EV's - it's basically giving up on the dream entirely.


Yeah, I'm of the opinion that ship sailed a year or so ago. Private companies can be dreamers. Public ones have boards and shareholders with different expectations.


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## JasonF (Oct 26, 2018)

SalisburySam said:


> Yeah, I'm of the opinion that ship sailed a year or so ago. Private companies can be dreamers. Public ones have boards and shareholders with different expectations.


I was hoping Tesla would keep at it at least until the mainstream carmakers would stop seeing it as a latest fashion fad that they can grab onto for a while and make money until it fades, and then go back to ICE vehicles. There is a very real danger of that reversal happening now, especially with most of the carmakers pointing at dates like 2025 and 2030 for their EV transitions, hoping that the public's tastes and laws will make it unnecessary and they could abandon the whole thing, and even moreso with a recession looming. That alone might trigger a lot of legacy auto to announce that no one is buying cars right now, so the EV transition is cancelled.


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## francoisp (Sep 28, 2018)

SalisburySam said:


> Vehicle prices have been escalating for a hundred years or so, nothing new here.


Prices have obviously been going up however a news acrticle comparing prices from 10 years ago shows a decrease in constant prices for some car models with similar equipment.
Have cars actually gotten more expensive over time?


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## Klaus-rf (Mar 6, 2019)

Driver aids, such as adaptive cruise control and lane keeping, are not unique top Tesla. Several mfgrs have these features.


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## francoisp (Sep 28, 2018)

JasonF said:


> I think I've mentioned before that this is one of the worrying pieces of the puzzle in Tesla's strategy: What do you do when you've been putting all of your bets in FSD for so long, that Autopilot suffers? The answer might be put _even more_ bets on FSD.
> 
> That's worrying for two reasons: One is FSD might not be ready for a _long_ time, and until then we'll watch everyone else's driver assist surpass it by a long way, or even that it becomes insufficient to meet regulatory demands and has to be discontinued until FSD is ready; And two, more concerning, is that FSD is going to figure into Tesla's base price on all models - meaning that Autopilot will be scrapped, all cars would come with FSD, and the base price of the cars will increase by $15,000 to $20,000 to compensate.


I read somewhere that Tesla is bundling FSD on many of the used cars (end of lease, trade-ins) it sells.


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## SalisburySam (Jun 6, 2018)

francoisp said:


> Prices have obviously been going up however a news acrticle comparing prices from 10 years ago shows a decrease in constant prices for some car models with similar equipment.
> Have cars actually gotten more expensive over time?


I don’t dispute the logic, but the argument is irrelevant for a large swath of today’s buyers. Yes, the top 15%ers see decreased prices in constant dollars but the rest of us don’t live with constant dollars…we live with declining dollars exacerbating the difference between wages and available car prices, potentiated by inflation, few-if-any pension programs in the private sector, likely an imminent recession, and on and on. So while the article may be factual, few care.


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## francoisp (Sep 28, 2018)

SalisburySam said:


> I don’t dispute the logic, but the argument is irrelevant for a large swath of today’s buyers. Yes, the top 15%ers see decreased prices in constant dollars but the rest of us don’t live with constant dollars…we live with declining dollars exacerbating the difference between wages and available car prices, potentiated by inflation, few-if-any pension programs in the private sector, likely an imminent recession, and on and on. So while the article may be factual, few care.


I agree it is an issue.


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## garsh (Apr 4, 2016)

After a couple days of using Toyota's Lane Tracing Assist, I turned it off. I finally realized that I was fighting it almost constantly rather than allowing it to handle the steering. It makes WAY too many mistakes compared to Autopilot. And it rarely stays centered.

Oh well. Hopefully they'll get better.


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## JasonF (Oct 26, 2018)

garsh said:


> After a couple days of using Toyota's Lane Tracing Assist, I turned it off. I finally realized that I was fighting it almost constantly rather than allowing it to handle the steering. It makes WAY too many mistakes compared to Autopilot. And it rarely stays centered.
> 
> Oh well. Hopefully they'll get better.


That's extra disappointing, since it's unlikely Toyota will fix it with an over-the-air update.


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## Klaus-rf (Mar 6, 2019)

JasonF said:


> That's extra disappointing, since it's unlikely Toyota will fix it with an over-the-air update.


It's also unlikely Toyota will break part or all of it with an OTA update. Unlike Tesla's AP / FSD, it will work exactly the same as the day it was new until [probably] until it gets recycled.


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## garsh (Apr 4, 2016)

I'm in the middle of another vacation. This time I rented a Nissan Rogue with ProPilot Assist. Again, it seems pretty similar to autopilot, but it's not as good. If a turn is too great, it can't keep the vehicle between the lines. It gets confused when lanes begin and end.

Tesla has such a leg up on everybody else. I wish they'd allow having "autonomous highway driving" as a goal instead of "FSD Everywhere or BUST!". I really think that with a little concentration on buttoning up the remaining issues with highway driving, they would have a really good feature to sell until FSD is complete.


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## shareef777 (Mar 10, 2019)

garsh said:


> I'm in the middle of another vacation. This time I rented a Nissan Rogue with ProPilot Assist. Again, it seems pretty similar to autopilot, but it's not as good. If a turn is too great, it can't keep the vehicle between the lines. It gets confused when lanes begin and end.
> 
> Tesla has such a leg up on everybody else. I wish they'd allow having "autonomous highway driving" as a goal instead of "FSD Everywhere or BUST!". I really think that with a little concentration on buttoning up the remaining issues with highway driving, they would have a really good feature to sell until FSD is complete.


What difference does it make to them? They provide neither right now and still collect $$$!


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## Klaus-rf (Mar 6, 2019)

What is this thing you call "vacation" that you are centered in?


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## Madmolecule (Oct 8, 2018)

Until Tesla addresses the liability of FSD they should only focus on driver assistance. I have been saying this for years. Tesla would not have been able to stay in business without the vaporware sales. This has put them in a box. Their driver assistance is not much better or will not be better much longer. FSD has no believable timeline for product release, liability insurance or regulator approval in the US or even other countries. It has been there secret sauce, but the secret is out that it will probably never come close to the promise and will never ever ever reach level 4 without 100% driver responsibility with current hardware and sensors. I don’t see Elon staying in charge, he continues to perpetuate the lie and selling dreams instead of products. The only way I see for tesla to survive is lose Elon, focus on the value Tesla can provide in the upcoming years. Other failures like Carvana has mad more profit of subprime loans and insurance than selling cars. Tesla just went the vaporware route in my opinion and adding stock Value by pumping future unreleased products like they are finished but just need some testing before release,

good old fashion cruise control without nags is starting to sound pretty good at this point. I did a couple of hour drive last Saturday night and it was a frustrating experience. The nags would no longer go away with a scrollwheel movement, I actually had to move the wheel. Als, I think I kept getting alerts from the cabin camera. Asked me to take over way to many times on I-85 which they should have some data on by now, as probably 1000 teslas a day go down that same stretch.

Tesla approach has failed in my opinion, many others feel they just need a little more time and they will release fire. I remember that feeling about 3 years ago.


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## SalisburySam (Jun 6, 2018)

garsh said:


> I really think that with a little concentration on buttoning up the remaining issues with highway driving, they would have a really good feature to sell until FSD is complete.


…until FSD is complete abandoned as regulators and lawsuits shut it down.

FTFY


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## FRC (Aug 4, 2018)

garsh said:


> I rented a Nissan Rogue


You mean the kind that burns gas "oh" line? I haven't touched one of those pumps in 4 years. And by the way, Garsh, you don't have to change your avatar flag to Canada just because you're traveling in Canada, do you?


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## JasonF (Oct 26, 2018)

Madmolecule said:


> I don’t see Elon staying in charge, he continues to perpetuate the lie and selling dreams instead of products.


It's looking more and more like the reason why Tesla won't shift to driver _assistance_ instead of "self driving" is because self drive is central to Tesla solving its production issues (being unable to keep up) by owning a fleet of self-driving taxis and abandoning the idea of providing cars for everyone. I think Elon is trying to bring us into the post-car-ownership (unless you're very rich) era. He believes in it so strongly he's willing to derail production of the Roadster and Cybertruck, and future plans for a cheaper EV, for a self-driving taxi design. But I don't believe he thought that strategy through.

The reason the "post car ownership era" won't work is because there would be a very rapid ramp-up of demand, and supply wouldn't be able to keep up _at all_. That would result in the promises of "subscribe, and for a monthly payment just a little bit lower than a car payment, you can have a car show up any time you need it" becoming impossible, and people paying $500/month to be put on a waiting list when they need a car to take them somewhere. Imagine a future where if you need to go to the dentist, and you missed scheduling your self driving taxi a week in advance, you have to call Uber or Lyft and pay extra, on top of the subscription you're already paying.

Aside from that, I'm on the fence about whether Elon should stay in charge. On one hand, I believe he leans heavily on strategies like the above that won't work. On the other hand, he might be the only voice keeping Tesla from restricting production and keeping prices as high as possible, like high-end supercar producers do. Or at least he _was_, now he seems to be leaning more that direction himself.


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## francoisp (Sep 28, 2018)

garsh said:


> I'm in the middle of another vacation. This time I rented a Nissan Rogue with ProPilot Assist. Again, it seems pretty similar to autopilot, but it's not as good. If a turn is too great, it can't keep the vehicle between the lines. It gets confused when lanes begin and end.
> 
> Tesla has such a leg up on everybody else. I wish they'd allow having "autonomous highway driving" as a goal instead of "FSD Everywhere or BUST!". I really think that with a little concentration on buttoning up the remaining issues with highway driving, they would have a really good feature to sell until FSD is complete.


Renting a car with blue cruise or super cruise would have provided a more relevant comparison technology wise. I don't think Propilot sees itself in the same league as those and Tesla's Autopilot.


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## garsh (Apr 4, 2016)

FRC said:


> And by the way, Garsh, you don't have to change your avatar flag to Canada just because you're traveling in Canada, do you?


It looks like this new forum software shows the flag of the country associated with your current IP address rather than what you've listed as your location within your profile. So I think I'm going to be Canadian for another week until I return from vacation.


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## SalisburySam (Jun 6, 2018)

garsh said:


> It looks like this new forum software shows the flag of the country associated with your current IP address rather than what you've listed as your location within your profile.


Odd choice given vacations, VPN’s, business travel, second homes, etc. I guess this forum software and Tesla’s V11 software are outsourced to the same whacko subcontractor, likely named something like Non-Intuitive Software Design, Inc.


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## Robin6v (3 mo ago)

garsh said:


> I'm on vacation in California, and I rented a Toyota Prius. My Prius has Dynamic Radar Cruise Control and Lane Tracing Assist. It also requires me to periodically put torque on the steering wheel to prove that I'm paying attention. It feels almost like using regular Autopilot in a Tesla!
> 
> There's even one feature that I prefer in Toyota's solution over Tesla's: if I take over the steering (to change lanes, for example), then as soon as I center the vehicle back in a lane, LTA takes over again without me having to reactivate it!
> 
> Has anybody else had similar "Autopilot experiences" with non-Tesla vehicles?


My friends nissan


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## garsh (Apr 4, 2016)

I'm now the proud owner of a Hyundai Ioniq 5 (see my review). I've had it for three weeks now, and have been using HDA (HIghway Driving Assist) a lot.

It's definitely better than Nissan's and Toyota's systems.
It's still not as good as Tesla's Autopilot.
It just makes too many mistakes for the basic lane-keeping. Even on highways with well-defined lane lines, it will sometimes inexplicably decide to get really close to one of the lines. Sometimes it will even end up going over a line! And this happens multiple times per trip.

I've never had a phantom braking episode, but those were pretty sporadic in my Tesla. I'd much rather deal with one or two phantom braking episodes on a long trip than constantly having to take over the steering during shorter drives.


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## JasonF (Oct 26, 2018)

garsh said:


> It just makes too many mistakes for the basic lane-keeping. Even on highways with well-defined lane lines, it will sometimes inexplicably decide to get really close to one of the lines. Sometimes it will even end up going over a line! And this happens multiple times per trip.


That’s like going back in time! I test drove a Model S once when AP was new (before I got my Model 3) and I-4 here was undergoing major reconstruction. I had to abort right away because it tried to cross over all of the lane markings and head straight off the exit ramp at 60 mph.

I haven’t seen that happen since then.


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## garsh (Apr 4, 2016)

JasonF said:


> That’s like going back in time! I test drove a Model S once when AP was new (before I got my Model 3) and I-4 here was undergoing major reconstruction. I had to abort right away because it tried to cross over all of the lane markings and head straight off the exit ramp at 60 mph.
> 
> I haven’t seen that happen since then.


It's not quite that bad. 

The Hyundai still follows the correct curve when it goes over a line - at least the few times when I allowed it to do its thing because no other vehicles were around. But that doesn't instill me with confidence when we're being passed by a semi truck.


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