# Motor Trend Model 3 vs Bolt vs Leaf



## danzgator

http://www.motortrend.com/cars/tesl...s-nissan-leaf-sl-vs-tesla-model-3-long-range/


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## MelindaV

Motor Trend release a new article comparing the three 'affordable long range EVs', and sounds like they caught Elon's anti-selling virus. Essentially, the Bolt and Leaf beat the 3 in everything (except 0-60 and handling and UI and styling)
They claim the Bolt and Leaf are more comfortable for humans, they say the Model 3 doesn't have enough regenerative braking to count, the glass roof is a negative, the rear seat height is too shallow (and include a photo of a tall person with knees raised in a Model 3, but no photos of the other two cars) and the Leaf's autonomous features are better (they use Mobileye). 
But at the same time, say it isn't a fair comparison and the Model 3 should be being compared to a 330i instead.
overall it felt very much like they were talking down the Model 3. Vaguely mentioned Tesla's supercharging advantage, don't think they mentioned at all OTA updates, didn't really go into it being a totally different style (IE attractive) vehicle than a compact hatch / SUV style vehicle besides saying it had an advantage in it's aerodynamics that they others didn't have (stated in such a way that it was unfair to compare the because obviously the Bolt and Leaf could not get that low because they have a taller height).

http://www.motortrend.com/cars/tesl...s-nissan-leaf-sl-vs-tesla-model-3-long-range/

disclaimer, I did read this before 5am, and maybe was being overly crabby about them not being more unbiased in their comparisons.


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## danzgator

MelindaV said:


> Motor Trend release a new article comparing the three 'affordable long range EVs', and sounds like they caught Elon's anti-selling virus. Essentially, the Bolt and Leaf beat the 3 in everything (except 0-60 and handling and UI and styling)
> They claim the Bolt and Leaf are more comfortable for humans, they say the Model 3 doesn't have enough regenerative braking to count, the glass roof is a negative, the rear seat height is too shallow (and include a photo of a tall person with knees raised in a Model 3, but no photos of the other two cars) and the Leaf's autonomous features are better (they use Mobileye).
> But at the same time, say it isn't a fair comparison and the Model 3 should be being compared to a 330i instead.
> overall it felt very much like they were talking down the Model 3. Vaguely mentioned Tesla's supercharging advantage, don't think they mentioned at all OTA updates, didn't really go into it being a totally different style (IE attractive) vehicle than a compact hatch / SUV style vehicle besides saying it had an advantage in it's aerodynamics that they others didn't have (stated in such a way that it was unfair to compare the because obviously the Bolt and Leaf could not get that low because they have a taller height).
> 
> http://www.motortrend.com/cars/tesl...s-nissan-leaf-sl-vs-tesla-model-3-long-range/
> 
> disclaimer, I did read this before 5am, and maybe was being overly crabby about them not being more unbiased in their comparisons.


The Model 3 won, so I didn't take it as negatively as you did. They didn't say that the other cars were more comfortable overall, just the back seat. That is understandable because you are comparing hatchbacks to a sedan. Of course they're going to be easier to get in and out of and there's going to be more headroom, by definition. I think their Model 3 digs were fair, and they dug into the other two as well.


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## MelindaV

danzgator said:


> The Model 3 won, so I didn't take it as negatively as you did. They didn't say that the other cars were more comfortable overall, just the back seat. That is understandable because you are comparing hatchbacks to a sedan. Of course they're going to be easier to get in and out of and there's going to be more headroom, by definition. I think their Model 3 digs were fair, and they dug into the other two as well.


it won from 1 of the 3 reviewers.

the headroom in the rear seat of the Model 3 is ½" more than the Leaf and less than a ¼" less than the Bolt and the Model 3 has more back seat width than either of the other two.


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## danzgator

MelindaV said:


> it won from 1 of the 3 reviewers.
> 
> the headroom in the rear seat of the Model 3 is ½" more than the Leaf and less than a ¼" less than the Bolt and the Model 3 has more back seat width than either of the other two.


I guess you could look at it that way, but to me, the author's opinion closes the article. He gives a nod to the two other chuckle heads' opinions, but he concludes the article by praising the Model 3. He doesn't even say what reviewer #2 thought was the winner. It says he was a "Bolt fan," but "thought better of the Leaf" (than reviewer #1?). The only thing #2 liked was exterior styling, but then goes on to say that the interior, screen, and range are crap. Is his winner Bolt or Leaf? It could even conceivably be the Model 3 because it flat out doesn't say.


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## garsh

MelindaV said:


> ... the rear seat height is too shallow (and include a photo of a tall person with knees raised in a Model 3, but no photos of the other two cars)


Well... it is. The other two are tall hatchbacks. Plus, the "skateboard" battery design raises the interior floor - I think Nissan has the best battery packaging approach for maximizing interior volume. It keeps the floor lower at the footwells.










> the Model 3 doesn't have enough regenerative braking to count,


They have actual data that shows that the other two cars have stronger regen.

Anyone who thought this article was negative for the Tesla needs to read it a little closer. These sorts of points are valid. But in the end, Kim says:

_"The Model 3 leans into the future with a reckless glee you cannot avoid noticing. Its infotainment and autonomous systems are still a work in progress, but new software features are being beamed in seemingly every night. Its Autopilot 2 is crazy ambitious; will it work without lidar? Electric cars are often dismissed for seeming soulless; the Tesla fills the void with human fantasies. *You may need to talk yourself into a Bolt or a Leaf; you need to talk yourself out of paying the premium for this Model 3*."_​
Boom! <mic drop/>


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## Dogwhistle

I really think Motor Trend is holding out for the promised $35,000 Model 3. They still view the current $60K version as another expensive toy for early adopters, and not a direct competitor for the EV for everyone. They know the game changer is the base car, I expect that one to win MT COY next year, and win hands down these comparos.


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## 3Victoria

garsh said:


> It keeps the floor lower at the footwells.


I think you will find that their battery pack swells under the seats, and that there is still batteries under the foot well, so this argument doesn\t hold. The 3's pack also 'swells' under the rear seats because of ancillary circuits.


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## garsh

3Victoria said:


> The 3's pack also 'swells' under the rear seats because of ancillary circuits.


True, but not as much.

Also, the Leaf's pack is again higher at the front seats, and then non-existent in the front footwell. That also provides more footroom and a more upright seating position in the front seats. Nissan did screw up though - there is no room for rear seat passengers' toes under the front seats, compromising some of that rear footroom.

Anyhow, I don't mean to be presenting the Leaf as some great inspired design. Just pointing out that there are tradeoffs, and the Leaf trades aerodynamics and battery capacity for a more upright seating position with better legroom.


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## SoFlaModel3

I don't have much to add here other than seeing the Bolt in person in California. I was very underwhelmed and honestly its not in the same class. The only comparable are that it's an EV with decent range.


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## eye.surgeon

Tesla is paying the (calculated) price of launching with the M3 version that costs dramatically more than the touted 35k price. Personally I think that was a PR mistake that may or may not be worth the revenue long-term. Another mistake shining through is their premature divorce from mobileye which remains superior to AP2 in most respects.

A high floor makes the rear seats less comfortable, no way around that and a fair critique.

Overlooking the massive advantage of the supercharging network is a rookie mistake made by motor journalists who have never owned an EV. Without that, the competition are just city cars.


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## garsh

eye.surgeon said:


> Overlooking the massive advantage of the supercharging network is a rookie mistake made by motor journalists who have never owned an EV.


To be fair, Kim mentions the supercharger network twice (within a fairly short article - I think that's pretty good). Also, Kim makes clear in the article the he's had experience with EVs (though he doesn't say whether he personally owned one - I suspect not). He really does seem to be a proponent of EVs, and really likes the Model 3. At least, that's the impression that I get.


> Tesla is paying the (calculated) price of launching with the M3 version that costs dramatically more than the touted 35k price. Personally I think that was a PR mistake that may or may not be worth the revenue long-term.


I agree that it's hurting, and that it's hurting more than I thought it would. This article kind of makes it clear that they *really* wanted to compare the $35,000 version of the car to the other two. I think I'd rather see a comparison between the Model 3 and a BMW 340i.

Hopefully, we'll see even more positive press once the base config is made available.


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## Rusty

Remember MT has to keep all manufacturers as happy as reasonably possible and still provide adequate reviews. I think the article is as good as expected. Model 3 on top without making the other two seem worthless (because they are without a supercharger network).


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## Rusty

I saw my first Bolt this past weekend. I didn’t get a chance to drive it. First impression - small and dinky. 

I am excited that GM has a long range ev. It just seems like the other manufacturers, including GM, are afraid to put out an ev that is amazing. It feels like they are holding back because they are afraid of canabalizing their existing offerings. When is there going to be an electric Corvette?


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## garsh

Rusty said:


> It just seems like the other manufacturers, including GM, are afraid to put out an ev that is amazing. It feels like they are holding back because they are afraid of canabalizing their existing offerings.


The problem is that they just can't figure out how to bring down battery costs. They don't have the foresight to...

decide to build their own batteries
create a battery factory that is large enough to more than double the entire world's production of batteries.
Because of that, they're stuck with expensive batteries. And that results in expensive cars. And they try to minimize the amount of batteries to keep the costs reasonable. So you need a small, light car to get decent range out of a small battery. And that immediately screams "econobox" to them, unfortunately.

They'll come around, eventually (apparently in 2020 for most manufacturers )


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## eye.surgeon

Rusty said:


> ̶̶̶I̶̶̶t̶̶̶ ̶̶̶j̶̶̶u̶̶̶s̶̶̶t̶̶̶ ̶̶̶s̶̶̶e̶̶̶e̶̶̶m̶̶̶s̶̶̶ ̶̶̶l̶̶̶i̶̶̶k̶̶̶e̶̶̶ ̶̶̶t̶̶̶h̶̶̶e̶̶̶ ̶̶̶o̶̶̶t̶̶̶h̶̶̶e̶̶̶r̶̶̶ ̶̶̶m̶̶̶a̶̶̶n̶̶̶u̶̶̶f̶̶̶a̶̶̶c̶̶̶t̶̶̶u̶̶̶r̶̶̶e̶̶̶r̶̶̶s̶̶̶,̶̶̶ ̶̶̶i̶̶̶n̶̶̶c̶̶̶l̶̶̶u̶̶̶d̶̶̶i̶̶̶n̶̶̶g̶̶̶ ̶̶̶G̶̶̶M̶̶̶,̶̶̶ ̶̶̶a̶̶̶r̶̶̶e̶̶̶ ̶̶̶a̶̶̶f̶̶̶r̶̶̶a̶̶̶i̶̶̶d̶̶̶ ̶̶̶t̶̶̶o̶̶̶ ̶̶̶p̶̶̶u̶̶̶t̶̶̶ ̶̶̶o̶̶̶u̶̶̶t̶̶̶ ̶̶̶a̶̶̶n̶̶̶ ̶̶̶e̶̶̶v̶̶̶ ̶̶̶t̶̶̶h̶̶̶a̶̶̶t̶̶̶ ̶̶̶i̶̶̶s̶̶̶ ̶̶̶a̶̶̶m̶̶̶a̶̶̶z̶̶̶i̶̶̶n̶̶̶g̶̶̶.̶̶̶̶
> 
> It just seems like other manufacturers can't make any money on an EV that is amazing.


fixed it for you. Tesla hasn't figured that out yet, either. Time will tell.


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## BigBri

Motortrend harping on the 60 grand sticker is getting annoying. The majority of the increase is the battery which adds some warranty and acceleration but other then that the 35k version will be the same car (or 40k if you add Premium). It's still very competitive vs the bolt and leaf.


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## 3Victoria

eye.surgeon said:


> A high floor makes the rear seats less comfortable, no way around that and a fair critique.


I am not understanding -- the parameters below are very close to one another, and in fact the 3 seems to win on roominess of its seating.

 Bolt Leaf Tesla
F Headroom 3 1 2
R Headroom 1* 2 1
F Legroom 3 2 1
R Legroom 1 3 2
F Shoulder 2 2 1
R Shoulder 2 2 1
Totals: 12 12 8
* - less than or equal to 0.3" difference is considered a tie. 

That said, I think the comparisons are worthless, because the Model 3 is not really competing with these cars.

From article: Bolt/Leaf/3
*HEADROOM, F/R*39.7/37.9 in41.2/37.2 in40.3/37.7 in
*LEGROOM, F/R41.6/36.5 in42.1/33.5 in42.7/35.2 in
SHOULDER ROOM, F/R*54.6/52.8 in54.3/52.5 in56.3/54.0 in


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## smak

The fact is, as of right now, the supercharging network puts Tesla cars in a totally different category than any other EV.

It should be in a category called "long range EV', and despite the amount of miles the other cars can go, they should be in "short range" EV


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## Don

While I wait for my M3 (base plus premium), I've decided on a leaf to replace the first of my two polluters. Getting the leaf this February and hopefully the M3 later in 2018. I've decided on the leaf because I'm located in Ontario and the $14k rebate is questionable if the government changes in June 2018. The SV leaf will cost me ~$27k Canadian (or ~$21K USD) after the rebate. It isn't perfect but it is a lot more perfect than my ICE.


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## Poobah

BigBri said:


> Motortrend harping on the 60 grand sticker is getting annoying. The majority of the increase is the battery which adds some warranty and acceleration but other then that the 35k version will be the same car (or 40k if you add Premium). It's still very competitive vs the bolt and leaf.


And to get to 60K, they also had to add Autopilot and FSD, functionalities that aren't on the other cars ... and FSD isn't even functional on Tesla yet, so no need to get it yet.

Bottom line, when the base model is available, Model 3 will blow the doors off of the Bolt and Leaf on BOTH price and performance!


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## garsh

Don said:


> I'm located in Ontario


Your profile says Florida. Can you update it?


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## jsmay311

Poobah said:


> And to get to 60K, they also had to add Autopilot and FSD, functionalities that aren't on the other cars ... and FSD isn't even functional on Tesla yet, so no need to get it yet.


True on the FSD. But the Leaf came with Nissan's "ProPilot Assist", which is similar to AP2 (as it currently stands) and the MT author said it was better than AP2 (as it currently stands).


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## garsh

Poobah said:


> And to get to 60K, they also had to add Autopilot and FSD


Again, that's not Motortrend's fault - that's Tesla's fault for giving them that configuration for the test. I don't understand why they'd include FSD for any vehicle sent out to be tested at this point.


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## Mad Hungarian

Read the whole thing this aft and my general impression is that it was carefully crafted to NOT appear like a raging fanboi-fest, which is pretty much what every previous MT article on Tesla has read like. I actually think that's a good thing. Hear me out...
Now I do like that at least one major mag out there has given Elon & co. some solid support over the years when it was way too fashionable to just doubt/bash, but I think MT's rah-rah has gone more than a little over the top at times, and pretty much every other serious auto journalist and publication has taken some fair shots at them for it. At some point you're gonna lose serious cred if you don't become at least a little critical.
Truth is I expect the major media players here to take a long, hard, calculating look at the company and its products in the harsh light of day, not enforce my own positive feedback loop. My long-time fave, Car and Driver, has occasionally irked me with some their pointier pieces, but I never thought them completely unjustified. And even they seem to be coming around.
So were some of the MT criticisms in this round (like the back seat business) a little weak? Yes. But if this is a sign that they're going to stop handing out trophies before the cars leave the production line, I'm all for it. Tesla products can win praise and contests fair and square strictly on the merits. Journalistic handicapping no longer required.


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## Matthias Fritz

i read an (german) article today that says Opel is loosing roughly 10.000eur with every Ampera-e sold. but they still do it,
to get to the 95g CO2 / km for their vehicle fleet.


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## MichelT3

Matthias Fritz said:


> i read an (german) article today that says Opel is loosing roughly 10.000eur with every Ampera-e sold. but they still do it,
> to get to the 95g CO2 / km for their vehicle fleet.


Can you give a reference which article?

Edit: OMG! Even with a sales price from € 46.699 = $ 54,640 in The Netherlands!


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## Matthias Fritz

MichelT3 said:


> Can you give a reference which article?


https://ecomento.de/2017/12/06/opel-ampera-e-10-000-euro-verlust-pro-verkauftem-fahrzeug/


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## MichelT3

Matthias Fritz said:


> https://ecomento.de/2017/12/06/opel-ampera-e-10-000-euro-verlust-pro-verkauftem-fahrzeug/


Danke Matthias! Sehr lesenswert, besonders weil ich Citroën Klassiker Liebhaber bin. PSA wurde zu spät sein mit die Umschaltung zur BEV fürchte ich. Gruß.

EDIT: In hindsight it's impolite to use another language here. I wrote:
Thank you Matthias! Very useful article, especially because I'm a lover of Citroën Classics. I fear that PSA (Citroën, Peugeot and Opel's mother company) will be too late in the changeover to BEV. Greetings.

The German language article deals with the fact that each Opel Ampera-E sold, costs PSA now € 10.000. 
But they have to keep selling them, because only through those they can lower the average emission of all Opel cars. A compliance car in every sense!
Apparently GM has duped PSA in giving false info on the emission of fossil Opel cars... PSA apparently is now (threatening to) suing GM.


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## Tesla Ninja

Why was the article a huge win for the M3? Simply because "It handled like a four-door Porsche Cayman"

So the article also had what I was long waiting for:

WEIGHT TO POWER
14.4 lb/hp

SUSPENSION, FRONT; REAR
Multilink, coil springs, anti-roll bar; multilink, coil springs, anti-roll bar

BRAKES, F; R
12.6-in vented disc; 13.2-in vented disc, ABS

QUARTER MILE
13.4 sec @ 104.9 mph

BRAKING, 60-0 MPH
119 ft

LATERAL ACCELERATION
0.87 g (avg)

MT FIGURE EIGHT
25.7 sec @ 0.74 g (avg)

So how do the performance numbers stack up to an equivalent 60k car (my fav the Alfa Romeo Giulia)?

www.motortrend.com/news/alfa-romeo-giulia-2018-car-of-the-year/amp/

Well M3 kills the Q4 but 10k more and falls short of the Quadrifoglio, but that's way more money, probably the M3 performance can take a shot at.

The base M3 will probably have similar performance number, so watch out 3-series, c-class, etc..


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## Don

garsh said:


> Your profile says Florida. Can you update it?


I live in Ottawa and Pompano Florida.


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## RichD

Saw my first new Leaf today. I found it to be much better looking than the Bolt, but still a semi generic hatch.


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