# V9/V10 Features: Nav on Autopilot



## MelindaV

for the big Version 9 release, we are going to have dedicated feature specific threads. Please use the MEGA thread for general fw discussion, using these for known specific features once the fw is being used.


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## garsh

electrek: Watch Tesla's new Autopilot on 'Mad Max' mode at work


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## fmcotton

Looks like from Elonn’s tweet this morning that V9 is starting to roll out to everyone, but Nav on Autopilot is being held back for now. 

Whole this feature is exciting if they need more time to get it right that is perfectly fine. I can’t imagine how complex this feature must be.


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## tivoboy

Ah well. It was fun while it lasted classic elon oversell


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## iChris93

tivoboy said:


> Ah well. It was fun while it lasted classic elon oversell


Was this something we were even supposed to know about? I think the first source was from leaks.


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## SoFlaModel3

Changed thread title to Nav "on" Autopilot and here is a picture of it in action!


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1054145126698639360


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## iChris93

SoFlaModel3 said:


> Changed thread title to Nav "on" Autopilot and here is a picture of it in action!
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1054145126698639360


In a new Beta?


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## SoFlaModel3

iChris93 said:


> In a new Beta?


He just replied to Trev saying he's in Early Access Program.


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## iChris93

SoFlaModel3 said:


> He just replied to Trev saying he's in Early Access Program.


Thanks!


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## Diamond.g

It does ask to change lanes more than it seems like it should.


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## 3V Pilot

I spoke with another Early Access Program Model 3 owner this weekend, he said he has Nav on Autopilot and kept it even after a second V9 firmware update. Beginning to wonder if that is one of the key differences for Early Access people?


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## Diamond.g

3V Pilot said:


> I spoke with another Early Access Program Model 3 owner this weekend, he said he has Nav on Autopilot and kept it even after a second V9 firmware update. Beginning to wonder if that is one of the key differences for Early Access people?


As far as I am aware that is the only difference.


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## JWardell

3V Pilot said:


> I spoke with another Early Access Program Model 3 owner this weekend, he said he has Nav on Autopilot and kept it even after a second V9 firmware update. Beginning to wonder if that is one of the key differences for Early Access people?


SOME but not ALL early access folks, apparently...


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## Chris350

I've been hearing of some early access members haven't even seen V9 yet....


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## SoFlaModel3

Nav on Autopilot is "coming soon" per Elon


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1054487430043074561


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## iChris93

JWardell said:


> SOME but not ALL early access folks, apparently...


Does this mean you have not received it?


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## evannole

SoFlaModel3 said:


> Nav on Autopilot is "coming soon" per Elon
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1054487430043074561


I sure hope that they have figured out how to incorporate both toll lanes and HOV lanes in navigation calculations. So far the system appears to be unaware that those two items combined save me up to 20 minutes each way on my commute, as it doesn't ever suggest using either. (I would be hesitant to use Nav on Autopilot on the toll lanes anyways, as the system also doesn't seem to realize that they are reversible lanes, as it sometimes tells me to make a "sharp left turn" - in reality, a u-turn - when I skip an exit it proposes that I use.)


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## JWardell

iChris93 said:


> Does this mean you have not received it?


Nope, I'm still on 39.7. I also didn't receive the email about it that others have.


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## Diamond.g

JWardell said:


> Nope, I'm still on 39.7. I also didn't receive the email about it that others have.


Interesting, Early Access folks got 39.7? I was under the impression they got 39.6.1.


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## JWardell

Diamond.g said:


> Interesting, Early Access folks got 39.7? I was under the impression they got 39.6.1.


There still has not been any apparent pattern to what early access gets vs others, except for the fact that they are not all getting the same thing


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## Gavyne

to the public!


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1056001102385049601


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## SR22pilot

Got the update this morning but haven’t driven anywhere yet. I just want the wipers to handle misting rain better.


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## littlD

I just finished a 90 minute drive of 2018.42.2, doing numerous exits and suggested lane changes, a few things to consider:

1. STAY ALERT! I had one exit going from MO-370 East (interstate level road here) to I-270 South where I had to take over, the exit speed was posted 40 and the car didn't slow down until right as I hit the curve. Maybe slow down your cruising speed until you confirm exit speeds are accurate. Reported it as a Bug Report
2. MadMax mode is amazing for keeping you moving in traffic, but I prefer Average as I don't have to confirm as often.
3. You'll get gray lines flashing to let you know of lane changes coming soon, even with more than one lane change needed to take the exit.
4. If time allows, it'll retry if it can't make a lane change even after saying "Lane Change Cancelled"

I have pictures I've already posted on https://teslaownersonline.com/threads/firmware-build-v9-0-2018-42-2-19e7e44.9424


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## Diamond.g

It seems to recognize construction. It also warned me that a curvy interchange was near the limits of its ability. Though it does those two things later than I like.


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## tipton

I don't find it very useful the way it is currently (with having to confirm lane changes) but it is really cool. 

One thing I noticed and I"m not sure if its a bug or how they want it is if you navigate and even if you are within a few minutes of the highway you won't have the nav on autopilot option on the nav, i do think it eventually comes up when you get on the highway though? i'm not sure it does each time yet or not, but the point is the option isn't there to press at the beginning of the route.


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## littlD

tipton said:


> I don't find it very useful the way it is currently (with having to confirm lane changes) but it is really cool.
> 
> One thing I noticed and I"m not sure if its a bug or how they want it is if you navigate and even if you are within a few minutes of the highway you won't have the nav on autopilot option on the nav, i do think it eventually comes up when you get on the highway though? i'm not sure it does each time yet or not, but the point is the option isn't there to press at the beginning of the route.


Maybe I haven't started my route far enough away from a highway, but haven't seen it not offer it to me at the start if a turn will eventually handle it.


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## JWardell

Tesla has now posted Nav on Auto to the blog, along with a demo video:


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1056254529157513216


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## Diamond.g

So how is everyone enjoying this feature?


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## 3V Pilot

Diamond.g said:


> So how is everyone enjoying this feature?


Well, one thing I can tell you is that "everyone" is really not enjoying waiting on this feature!....lol. I'm still waiting on the update but looking forward to using this feature once I get it! I'll be using it everyday on my drive into work.


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## SoFlaModel3

Diamond.g said:


> So how is everyone enjoying this feature?


I'm enjoying watching everyone post videos of it


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## Veedio

Diamond.g said:


> So how is everyone enjoying this feature?


We Canadians would love to tell you but they've left us out on this feature (even though Elon's tweet said the feature was rolling out to North America). Maybe after the recent NAFTA row we're no longer part of North America.


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## tivoboy

SoFlaModel3 said:


> I'm enjoying watching everyone post videos of it


Any good links to some good ones?


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## SR22pilot

I did a simple test yesterday and it did well. It is a lot nicer than I am. Overly so in my opinion. A truck was merging onto the highway. I would have sped up. Drive on Nav slowed down a lot to make sure he had room to get in front of me. I was surprised how early the request to acknowledge the exit came. I waited a bit thinking I was too far away to have the blinker on. When I did signal a right turn for the lane change the blinker didn't start immediately. However, when the car got closer to the exit the blinker came on by itself and the car exited. A message then came up saying that Drive on Nav would end in 500'. I was impressed but it was a simple test.


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## SoFlaModel3

tivoboy said:


> Any good links to some good ones?


@Rafael was picked up by Teslarati for this one...


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## littlD

Diamond.g said:


> So how is everyone enjoying this feature?


Had more fun with it today, and anyone can search for my previous posts for more details. I'll post more as the situation warrants or if folks want me to try different scenarios.

I hope those of us fortunate to have 2018.42.2 will be doing Bug Reports to get the exit speed data on our local roads updated to be more accurate for those who will get it soon.

That one thing will make or break how well it performs from what I've seen so far.

Most times, it just works and amazes me, yet...

This afternoon, I had to take over as Middie wouldn't accelerate enough to safely merge into traffic on I-70 West at the Earth City interchange. Looked like the merge speed wasn't anywhere close to what it needed to be.

Good thing she has a "GO" pedal instead of an accelerator pedal, had no problem getting up to speed to manually merge.


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## Jason Krellner

Well, I gave 42.2 a true test today. Drove 30 miles, mostly on highway (complete with an interchange) to pick up our favorite pizza. Here are my notes on Nav on Autopilot:

1. Both ways, when I entered my destination before driving, the button was available immediately and I selected it. I did not engage autopilot until I was on the on ramp.

2. On the way there, I signaled to enter the highway and the car handled the merge perfectly. It was a long on ramp and traffic was not intense so I felt comfortable letting the car do its thing.

3. I've gotten comfortable with autopilot now. At first, I didn't know what to do with my hands, but now I keep my regular pose - left elbow rests by window, hand gripping left side of wheel, and right hand resting on leg holding bottom of wheel (love that I can move the steering wheel all the way down now!).

4. I had Mad Max mode turned on because that tends to be the way I drive. A bit rainy tonight, so I ignored half of the prompts. I don't know why people think this mode "requires" too many confirmations. You can just ignore the prompts (I'm not even sure I saw all of them, since my eyes were on the road). You can also have autopilot change lanes without it prompting you, by signalling as you normally would. I love that it turns off the signal for you after the lane change. (When responding to a prompt, I'm able to initiate the change by the soft turn signal, but if I'm telling the car to change lanes, I find it works best if I do the hard/full signal - either way, I don't have to manually disengage the signal.)

4a. I don't think the lane change setting is important. If you're paying attention, you will know when you want to change lanes and it doesn't matter if you've been prompted or not.  I'd actually like the prompts to be more obnoxious - maybe an audible tone - as sometimes I forget to monitor my speed and find myself going too slow (this has always been a complaint of mine with "intelligent" cruise control).

4b. The system NEVER prompted me to change lanes when it wasn't clear to do so. In one instance, had I confirmed, there'd have been trouble because someone was approaching way too fast from behind (going at least 25 MPH over the limit). This is very common in Chicagoland. Please just remember to check before changing lanes!!! I do this with mirrors, but to each his/her own.

5. Exiting was cool, but leaves me confused. Both times, I had moved myself to the right hand lane well in advance of the exit. Both times, the system signaled on its own and exited. It was so cool! HOWEVER, I am unclear on what happens next. Both times, the car seemed to want to accelerate onto the off ramp, so I disengaged the system on my own and took over. Does anyone know what the car is programmed to do here?

6. On my return trip, I entered the highway on my own, because it is a VERY short on ramp with very heavy traffic at all hours. Maybe one day I will let the system attempt the merge and see what happens.

7. I also had to take over at one point because I was approaching a construction zone and the lanes went from 2 to 1, and in true Chicagoland fashion, no one wanted to give up their spot and let someone in. The car didn't know what was happening so I intervened. I do not view this as an issue - some PEOPLE don't know what to do in that situation!!!

8. Once in the construction zone, the car handled itself fine. Concrete barricades lined both sides of the road and it stayed well within the lane - never getting too close to either side.

All in all, I give it a A-. I loved it!!!


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## littlD

Jason Krellner said:


> Does anyone know what the car is programmed to do here?


From what I've experienced, if you still see the blue line ahead, it'll continue merging and taking additional exits ahead.

As you've likely seen, you'll see a prompt that Nav on Autopilot will end in XXX feet. In those cases, you need to be ready to take over as it'll just default back to autopilot.

And good job being careful with this new stuff, especially in Chi-town.


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## Achooo

Anyone still waiting for the update? I just took delivery on Friday, and with 2018.39.8. Haven’t received any OTA updates since delivery. I don’t get LTE coverage in my garage where I charge, but I did connect to WiFi. Im concerned that the update isn’t being pushed over WiFi. I have noticed that the car disconnects from my WiFi network when it goes to sleep. At times it won’t even wake up for the app. Anyone have any input? 

I can’t wait to play with NOA and mad max.


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## Bokonon

AnandP3D said:


> Anyone still waiting for the update? I just took delivery on Friday, and with 2018.39.8. Haven't received any OTA updates since delivery. I don't get LTE coverage in my garage where I charge, but I did connect to WiFi. Im concerned that the update isn't being pushed over WiFi. I have noticed that the car disconnects from my WiFi network when it goes to sleep. At times it won't even wake up for the app. Anyone have any input?


Welcome to the forum, and congrats on your new Model 3!

At this point, most Model 3 owners do not have Nav on Autopilot yet -- according to TeslaFi, only about 7% do. Most of us are still running 39.7, so all we're waiting in anticipation for that software update notification, just like you are.

Tesla has stated that software updates are generally prioritized for cars that are WiFi-connected, so it's good that you have a working WiFi connection in your garage. As for the LTE signal, we know that Telsa *can* use your car's LTE connection to wake it up so that it can download a software update, but that doesn't necessarily mean that the car won't check for updates on its own when it's awake and connected to WiFi. So, as far as software updates are concerned, I wouldn't worry too much about the lack of LTE signal. At some point, your car's turn will come up, and it will download the update. Until then, there isn't much to do but wait.

And yeah, for those of us with good LTE coverage, it's nice that the car disconnects from WiFi when asleep to save power, but in situations like yours, it can be a significant inconvenience. Hopefully Tesla will find a workaround for this, such as a setting that would leave WiFi enabled during sleep (possibly at the cost of additional vampire drain).


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## Achooo

Bokonon said:


> Welcome to the forum, and congrats on your new Model 3!
> 
> At this point, most Model 3 owners do not have Nav on Autopilot yet -- according to TeslaFi, only about 7% do. Most of us are still running 39.7, so all we're waiting in anticipation for that software update notification, just like you are.
> 
> Tesla has stated that software updates are generally prioritized for cars that are WiFi-connected, so it's good that you have a working WiFi connection in your garage. As for the LTE signal, we know that Telsa *can* use your car's LTE connection to wake it up so that it can download a software update, but that doesn't necessarily mean that the car won't check for updates on its own when it's awake and connected to WiFi. So, as far as software updates are concerned, I wouldn't worry too much about the lack of LTE signal. At some point, your car's turn will come up, and it will download the update. Until then, there isn't much to do but wait.
> 
> And yeah, for those of us with good LTE coverage, it's nice that the car disconnects from WiFi when asleep to save power, but in situations like yours, it can be a significant inconvenience. Hopefully Tesla will find a workaround for this, such as a setting that would leave WiFi enabled during sleep (possibly at the cost of additional vampire drain).


Bokonon, thanks is for the reply and thanks for the warm welcome. It's exciting to be part of the club. It's good to here that my situation is apparently a "normal" one rather than something being wrong. I can't imagine that leaving the WiFi on would cause too much vampire drain. Hopefully, there is a good solution at some point. Does the car have to be plugged in for an update to come through? Perhaps it'll come through when I'm on LTE while
Parked at work this week. One can only hope. In the meantime, this car is incredibly fun to self-drive the old school way. Haha


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## Bokonon

AnandP3D said:


> Does the car have to be plugged in for an update to come through?


Doesn't matter... I've received updates while plugged in and while not plugged it.


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## littlD

AnandP3D said:


> Bokonon, thanks is for the reply and thanks for the warm welcome. It's exciting to be part of the club. It's good to here that my situation is apparently a "normal" one rather than something being wrong. I can't imagine that leaving the WiFi on would cause too much vampire drain. Hopefully, there is a good solution at some point. Does the car have to be plugged in for an update to come through? Perhaps it'll come through when I'm on LTE while
> Parked at work this week. One can only hope. In the meantime, this car is incredibly fun to self-drive the old school way. Haha


Welcome! Normally, I'm one of those that wait a while no matter what I do.

This time, I kinda "won the lottery". So don't worry, you'll get the update soon, and probably with some bug fixes reported by me and @Diamond.g.

Maybe this post will help explain it:
https://teslaownersonline.com/threads/life-with-middie.7044/post-123408


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## Chris350

It appears that this rollout is dead for the model 3 as of this morning (10/29)...

Going out in big numbers for the S and X though....

Was hoping to have it for a long trip today....

Back to the waiting game..... I hate seeing announcements for the rollout of new features and then waiting weeks to get it....


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## Flashgj

Had my first experience with NOA this past weekend. Wife and I went for a small 130 mile road trip, about half of it on interstate where I was able to use the feature and the other half on rural country roads. 

I enabled all functions, started my navigation and began our trip. Upon entering the interstate I did not get the notice on the navigation screen to start NOA. I went to Controls and checked my settings and for some reason it was not turned on, even though I know I turned it on before leaving the house. It would not let me turn it on while driving so I exited at the next exit, stopped and turned it on and checked all of my settings. Not sure what happened there, but make sure everything is turned on and set properly before you take off. 

It worked as intended for the rest of our trip and I am very pleased with this small step forward and I am looking forward to when the acknowledgement step is removed from the equation. We did have one hiccup during this short test run. As we were approaching one of our exits, there was some construction going on so I was extra attentive to see how the car would handle the situation. The gray line appeared, fairly early, to indicate that I needed to take the next exit, I acknowledged by moving the stalk for a right lane change and waited to see if it would take the exit. With the construction going on just prior to the actual exit, the NOA got confused and started the exit a little early and began a slight heading for the construction. I was not at all surprised by this because it was rather messy looking. I did have to make the correction and exit out of NOA. With so many variables out on the roads, we do have to make sure we are still very attentive. Actually, at this stage in my ownership and the maturity of the system, I feel like I am more attentive now than I ever was before.


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## Achooo

Bokonon said:


> Doesn't matter... I've received updates while plugged in and while not plugged it.


This is good to hear! There is then some hope that I can receive updates while at work.



littlD said:


> Welcome! Normally, I'm one of those that wait a while no matter what I do.
> 
> This time, I kinda "won the lottery". So don't worry, you'll get the update soon, and probably with some bug fixes reported by me and @Diamond.g.
> 
> Maybe this post will help explain it:
> https://teslaownersonline.com/threads/life-with-middie.7044/post-123408


This totally makes sense! I guess as a Tesla beginner, It's probably safer to iron out the bugs before the features reach me. Though, it would be nice to get bumped up to the front and "win the lottery" in the future.

Thanks friends!


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## GDN

Chris350 said:


> It appears that this rollout is dead for the model 3 as of this morning (10/29)...
> 
> Going out in big numbers for the S and X though....
> 
> Was hoping to have it for a long trip today....
> 
> Back to the waiting game..... I hate seeing announcements for the rollout of new features and then waiting weeks to get it....


42.2 is still hitting some 3's again this afternoon and the Model 3 only follows one model of S and one X. Maybe just a slowdown this morning. With an email from Tesla now this afternoon, maybe it'll kick butt this evening and tonight.


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## littlD

I tried a silly scenario that actually occurs in my area with a SURPRISING RESULT...

I normally take one of two exits, either one will eventually get to my house. I'll end up picking the second one sometimes as there's a convenience store I like on that road.

So, I ignored Nav on Autopilot wanting me to move over so I could take the second exit instead (about a mile or so away).

Middie made a "bong" sound to call attention to the need to make the lane change. I continued to ignore it to see what would happen.

I made sure I didn't have someone tailgating me just in case.

Immediately after we passed that exit, the car SLOWED DOWN in the lane it was in (70 -->> 50 mph)!!

SO.... If you don't want to take the exit and skip it, MAKE SURE to press the "Navigate on Autopilot" button again to turn it off.


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## Achooo

Update: I pulled into the garage today and immediately lost LTE, but car automatically connected to wifi. About 10 minutes later, I went back to the car to grab something and noticed the pop up screen for the update. Updating now!


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## Tmo6

Have you noticed that the car ping-pongs more between the lane lines when on Nav on Autopilot? I didn't have this problem on 36.2, and it's starting to make me feel sea sick...


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## garsh

Tmo6 said:


> Have you noticed that the car ping-pongs more between the lane lines when on Nav on Autopilot? I didn't have this problem on 36.2, and it's starting to make me feel sea sick...


I get a little bit of slight ping-ponging with regular autosteer on 40.1. Moreso on long sweeping curves than straightaways.


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## SoFlaModel3

All I can say is Nav on Autopilot is pure magic and I love it!


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## SoFlaModel3

Just to add — I’m officially shocked (but happy) Nav on Autopilot isn’t a FSD feature.


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## JWardell

SoFlaModel3 said:


> Just to add - I'm officially shocked (but happy) Nav on Autopilot isn't a FSD feature.


Agreed, I'm am starting to worry a bit what EAP will lose out on. As I said a year (or two?) ago, the longer we go before seeing FSD features, the better for all of us.


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## ummgood

Well I got it last night!!! So I purposely went out of my way on my commute this morning to get on a freeway to try this out. I used Mopac (Loop 1) in Austin starting at WM Cannon exiting on Cesar Chavez if anyone is interested.

1. I put in work as my destination from my kid's school on Manchaca road. The car first wanted me to drive through surface streets all the way to work so the Nav on autopilot button never showed up. I purposely drove to the freeway and once the guidance recalculated to put me on the freeway then the button magically showed up. The button will show up as soon as the Nav knows that you'll be driving on a freeway.
2. The traffic this morning was horrible. The car really doesn't know how to merge in heavy traffic. I was in a clear exit lane and there was about a 1/2 car gap and so I turned on my turn signal. The person kindly opened up so I could move over but the car was never ok with it. Eventually the person gave up on me and sped up and then my car jammed on its brakes because it got confused instead of rolling at a constant speed. Fortunately no one was behind or forward of me. I had two opportunities to merge like this because that merge dumped me into another exit lane. Both times the car couldn't merge even though people were making space for me. I don't necessarily blame the software but FSD has MAJOR WORK to be able to handle this type of stuff. It doesn't currently understand traffic patterns and how people make space to merge. I couldn't imagine if I was in LA or something the car would stop and never be able to get on the freeway.
3. I did like the prompts I think they were good. The only complaint I have is on the screen in the autopilot section on the car there is a prompt that says you have to change lanes in order to continue on route. The problem for me is that prompt looks exactly the same as the prompt for hold the wheel. When I am using AP I watch the road so I see that out of the corner of my eye and there is no way to tell them apart besides actually taking my eyes off the road and reading the tiny text. They need better symbols that make it easy to tell what the car wants with a glance.
4. When I took the exit and the car deemed that the navigation on autopilot was over it looked like it went back into normal autopilot mode. That is what I wanted but the problem is the car started slowing to a stop for no reason. I would have expected it to continue on at the same speed without my prompting. I tapped the accelerator and it resumed back to normal speed.

Overall I think this is great but to me it isn't really valuable in traffic. I really want to take a road trip now to really try it out but frankly I don't live in a good area to use a lot of interchanges. To get from Austin to Houston you are on small highways until I-10 and then that goes straight into Houston with no really interchanges. To S.A. or Dallas it is I-35 all the way. But it would be neat to see how it deals with changing lanes etc...


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## ummgood

SoFlaModel3 said:


> Just to add - I'm officially shocked (but happy) Nav on Autopilot isn't a FSD feature.


Honestly Nav on Autopilot has always been an "Enhanced" autopilot feature. When they doubled the price of Autopilot when going from v1 to v2 that was the expectation. I still think FSD will be worth it because of the ability to have the car stop at lights and deal with surface streets. Also not having to wiggle the wheel every 20 seconds or so


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## SoFlaModel3

ummgood said:


> Honestly Nav on Autopilot has always been an "Enhanced" autopilot feature. When they doubled the price of Autopilot when going from v1 to v2 that was the expectation. I still think FSD will be worth it because of the ability to have the car stop at lights and deal with surface streets. Also not having to wiggle the wheel every 20 seconds or so


I'm with you - just wondering when Elon said the first pieces to FSD come in v9... what are those pieces of functionality short of enter a destination and take a nap.


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## ummgood

SoFlaModel3 said:


> I'm with you - just wondering when Elon said the first pieces to FSD come in v9... what are those pieces of functionality short of enter a destination and take a nap.


I am guessing he meant using all cameras to be fully aware of everything that is 360 degrees around the car.


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## garsh

ummgood said:


> Honestly Nav on Autopilot has always been an "Enhanced" autopilot feature. When they doubled the price of Autopilot when going from v1 to v2 that was the expectation. I still think FSD will be worth it because of the ability to have the car stop at lights and deal with surface streets. Also not having to wiggle the wheel every 20 seconds or so


FSD will be worth it to me even if it only works on divided highways. If I can take a short nap or check email during most of my commute, that would be sooooo nice. It would also make long road trips more enjoyable, allowing me to enjoy the scenery more.


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## iChris93

garsh said:


> FSD will be worth it to me even if it only works on divided highways. If I can take a short nap or check email during most of my commute, that would be sooooo nice. It would also make long road trips more enjoyable, allowing me to enjoy the scenery more.


Let's hope we still have our cars when this comes to fruition.


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## RichEV

JWardell said:


> Agreed, I'm am starting to worry a bit what EAP will lose out on. As I said a year (or two?) ago, the longer we go before seeing FSD features, the better for all of us.


Welllll, it is nice that EAP folks are getting goodies but I'd really like to see some special FSD love for those of us who went for it.


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## GDN

Flashgj said:


> I enabled all functions, started my navigation and began our trip. Upon entering the interstate I did not get the notice on the navigation screen to start NOA. I went to Controls and checked my settings and for some reason it was not turned on, even though I know I turned it on before leaving the house.


A question for you about how you enabled after receiving the update. Did you perhaps enable it while sitting in the car with the "Easy Exit" profile selected?

I received the update overnight and although I didn't drive the car today, I wanted to turn it on and select the "Mad Max" option. I went to the car and selected the menu option, turned NOA on and selected Mad Max. I was bout to get back out of the car when I realized I was in the Easy Exit profile. I tapped my profile and as they should be, it was still disabled, I had to set them up again. They are very specific profile related options, so just curious if this is how it could be that you believe you had configured, but yet they weren't the first time you tired to use them.


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## Flashgj

GDN said:


> A question for you about how you enabled after receiving the update. Did you perhaps enable it while sitting in the car with the "Easy Exit" profile selected?


That is a good thought. I don't use the Easy Exit function but it is mainly my wife's car, so after receiving the update I may have enabled it while it was still on her profile and then as we finally left I would have selected my profile. I honestly don't recall, but you are probably right, setting it up while in her profile is most likely what I did.

That brings up the question though, what are all the settings that are configurable based on specific profiles?


----------



## Achooo

Finally got to try out NOA this morning on the way to work. I felt like a teenager getting ready to boot up Windows XP for the first time after living with windows 3.1 for so long. Haha. 

It is a pretty cool feature with the lane change suggestions. The feature definitely help me cut through traffic this morning making some of the same lane changes that I would have wanted to make myself on the way to work.

The car is still terrible at merging into traffic as mentioned by ummgood. There was one incident when I had to take over. The NOA had me go all the way to the right lane in order to get ready to exit in about 0.2 miles. However, as it was changing into that right most lane a big rig truck without a trailer moving pretty fast was entering the freeway directly into my lane. I had to take over and prevent the lane change after I had already confirmed it. 

This is a fun feature to use, but certainly requires you to be more attentive than with any of the previous AP features. 

Drive safely friends!


----------



## Jason Krellner

JWardell said:


> [T]he longer we go before seeing FSD features, the better for all of us.


I don't get it. I paid for FSD - I want to start seeing some return on my "investment" - i.e., new features.


ummgood said:


> The only complaint I have is on the screen in the autopilot section on the car there is a prompt that says you have to change lanes in order to continue on route. The problem for me is that prompt looks exactly the same as the prompt for hold the wheel. When I am using AP I watch the road so I see that out of the corner of my eye and there is no way to tell them apart besides actually taking my eyes off the road and reading the tiny text. They need better symbols that make it easy to tell what the car wants with a glance.


Yes! Different colors would work (so they're not both black), or maybe a "ding" for the lane change notifications.


----------



## M3OC Rules

Jason Krellner said:


> I don't get it. I paid for FSD - I want to start seeing some return on my "investment" - i.e., new features.


This is going to be an interesting one for Tesla. At some point they may be tempted to offer features short of FSD to people who paid for FSD. You want that and I'm sure I'll be tempted to buy FSD if they do. But at the same time they will get skewered in the press and some will probably sue for coming up short. They are getting negative articles because you have to approve lane change recommendations even though that's temporary. I wouldn't set my expectations too high that anything is coming for awhile. It seems like there is almost zero chance of being widely legal and ready in 2019. They have not let on to any intermediate step. Hopefully we get that coast to coast demo in 2019 at least.


----------



## JWardell

Jason Krellner said:


> I don't get it. I paid for FSD - I want to start seeing some return on my "investment" - i.e., new features.


I totally understand folks who paid for FSD wanting some extra features. But it has been abundantly clear for years that you are making a donation for the future.
At some point, Tesla is going to draw a line in the sand, and say all features and improvements from this point forward is for FSD only.
My point is that the longer they go before drawing that line, the more improvements are added that benefit everyone, not just FSD donors.
Thankfully unlike all other car companies, this is the one that cares about doing the right thing for the most people, not for their bank accounts.


----------



## garsh

AnandP3D said:


> I felt like a teenager getting ready to boot up Windows XP for the first time after living with windows 3.1 for so long. Haha.


Stop making me feel old.
And get off my lawn!


----------



## Jason Krellner

TOO Rules said:


> This is going to be an interesting one for Tesla. At some point they may be tempted to offer features short of FSD to people who paid for FSD. You want that and I'm sure I'll be tempted to buy FSD if they do. But at the same time they will get skewered in the press and some will probably sue for coming up short. They are getting negative articles because you have to approve lane change recommendations even though that's temporary. I wouldn't set my expectations too high that anything is coming for awhile. It seems like there is almost zero chance of being widely legal and ready in 2019. They have not let on to any intermediate step. Hopefully we get that coast to coast demo in 2019 at least.





JWardell said:


> I totally understand folks who paid for FSD wanting some extra features. But it has been abundantly clear for years that you are making a donation for the future.
> At some point, Tesla is going to draw a line in the sand, and say all features and improvements from this point forward is for FSD only.
> My point is that the longer they go before drawing that line, the more improvements are added that benefit everyone, not just FSD donors.
> Thankfully unlike all other car companies, this is the one that cares about doing the right thing for the most people, not for their bank accounts.


Now I understand. I knew I was "donating" to the R&D. And I will get the "free" FSD upgrade to "Hardware 3" so I guess that's good...


----------



## judomc

For me it was about being able to move to the new HW when it is available. I was able to absorb that cost now.


----------



## CaribbeanKing

So here's a question that I realize may be a gray area. Before when the steering wheel needed to be touched in order to keep autopilot activated, someone cleverly came up with a "phone holder" that made it so the wheel sensed a hand constantly, thus eliminating the nag. Now that you either have to apply pressure to the wheel or turn the volume/speed up or down to clear the nag, is there any additional option out there? I'm not advocating for zoning out, by any means. I'm constantly watching. I guess I just don't like having to move the wheel every 20 seconds. Just curious of what's out there


----------



## Jason Krellner

CaribbeanKing said:


> So here's a question that I realize may be a gray area. Before when the steering wheel needed to be touched in order to keep autopilot activated, someone cleverly came up with a "phone holder" that made it so the wheel sensed a hand constantly, thus eliminating the nag. Now that you either have to apply pressure to the wheel or turn the volume/speed up or down to clear the nag, is there any additional option out there? I'm not advocating for zoning out, by any means. I'm constantly watching. I guess I just don't like having to move the wheel every 20 seconds. Just curious of what's out there


I found that by resting my elbow by the window and putting my hand (or at least my index finger) on the part of the horizontal part of the steering wheel, the mere weight on my hand's pull was enough to avoid the nag.


----------



## nonStopSwagger

CaribbeanKing said:


> So here's a question that I realize may be a gray area. Before when the steering wheel needed to be touched in order to keep autopilot activated, someone cleverly came up with a "phone holder" that made it so the wheel sensed a hand constantly, thus eliminating the nag. Now that you either have to apply pressure to the wheel or turn the volume/speed up or down to clear the nag, is there any additional option out there? I'm not advocating for zoning out, by any means. I'm constantly watching. I guess I just don't like having to move the wheel every 20 seconds. Just curious of what's out there


I have my wheel set as low as it can go, and my seat set so my left leg is about touching the wheel. Then I rest my left arm along my leg, with my hand resting on the wheel. Pretty comfortable.


----------



## Enginerd

CaribbeanKing said:


> Now that you either have to apply pressure to the wheel or turn the volume/speed up or down to clear the nag, is there any additional option out there?


Please don't be seduced by any tricks to circumvent the system. Keep your hand on the wheel, tight enough so that when autosteer tries to yank it out of your hand, your grip is there to calmly save the day. This has worked for me several times. Autopilot is great, and every once in a while it will also try to kill you.


----------



## barjohn

I received this update yesterday and today I got to test it. A few things to note for noobies. there are three steps to enable NOA. The first is a one time step to enable the feature and select the lane change behavior. The descriptions such as MadMax do not describe how the lane change is executed but rather how frequently it will attempt a lane change and is based on your set speed versus your actual speed. If you are traveling slower than your set speed and an adjacent lane is moving faster, it will attempt to change lanes. The delta in speed is what the different settings mean. With Madmax you only need to be going slightly slower for it to want to find a faster path. The second button to press is the one that appears after you have entered a route that includes freeway travel. To tell the system to use NOA instead of just AP, you need to press this button in the detailed list of turns. It will turn blue telling you it is ready. The final step is to double press the shifter all the way down (TM3) and watch the display change to a single blue line and NOA is engaged.

The next area of confusion is merging. Sometimes with moderate traffic it seems to handle the merger smoothly but in heavy traffic it drives like a skittish and timid ons lady. Most of us driving here in Souther CA are use to accelerating up to the speed of traffic or above it to effect a merger. Instead NOA always wants to slow down to merge. This can be dangerous for two reasons; 1) the drivers in the lane you are merging into expect you to speed up and 2) the drivers behind you expect you to speed up so when you abruptly slow down you create a problem for both drivers in that your behavior is unexpected. Be especially careful when merging onto a road with heavy traffic, especially stop & go traffic. It does not appear to handle this well yet.

Lane changing can be another area of confusion. In a lot of traffic, you may see the black sign saying it wants to change lanes and to confirm it but I initially found two and maybe three problems. I couldn't always tell which lane it wanted to change into so I wasn't sure whether to use the turn signal for a left or right turn, finally I found it easier to just use the drive select lever and give it a short pull down to confirm for it to go ahead. Second, it may speed up but then slow down and miss the opening. It almost always prefers to change in behind someone rather than in front of someone. Humans behave just the opposite. The reason that humans accelerate is that you reduce the chances of hitting someone in the new lane if you are speeding away from them and it gives them time to apply the brakes and slow down if need be. Slowing down and trying to squeeze in behind them is not the way people generally behave and leads to confusion for everyone. NOA needs to learn how humans handle these situations and to mimic human behavior. The instructions say you will hear a chime when the car wants to change lanes, but honestly, if it chimed I never heard it. Either the chime is too soft or missing and it needs to be strong enough to get our attention. When in heavy traffic and you are trying to watch the road and traffic it can be very hard to keep looking at the display to see if it wants to change lanes. With 4 to 8 lanes on a side here, it may or may not move you to the exit lane in time when traffic is heavy. My general rule is to start looking to get out of the HOV lane about 2 miles prior to the exit as it can easily take that long to fight your way over and it usually takes very aggressive driving to get there, especially in areas like near LAX on the 405 freeway. One time today, I had to direct the lane changes to get it over far enough and fast enough to make the exit and one time it did it almost correctly but the exit was 2 lanes wide and it put me in the wrong lane for the upcoming turn at the traffic light. The instructions say that a countdown message will appear warning you of distance remain before NOA reverts to AP but it it is there, I didn't see it so it needs to be more prominently displayed.

The last area, I am still confused on what we are supposed to do so hopefully someone that has this figured out better will chime in and that is what one is supposed to do and when once on the exit. At what point are we supposed to take over. It does a chime but still appears to be driving the car (somewhat erratically) and while one can force a disengagement (or maybe NOA is disengaged) the throttle continues to erratically change speed and the steering wheel fights you for control. The instructions posted by Tesla are not very clear. If the exit is one that leads to a stop sign or traffic signal with driver action required it should completely disengage NOA and AP and tell you to take control. If the exit is one that leads into another freeway with no stopping but merging it should continue to operate and not chime or anything other than driving the road and merging.

While on a navigation route and on surface streets, while passing vehicles parked along the road it gave the loud collision warning three times. It did not apply brakes and I could see no reason for the warning.

Finally, I think this is a huge step up from AP with a lot of promise. The car needs to learn a few things to drive a little better but the improvements are clearly coming and coming fast. I do think it will need the newer processor and I wouldn't be surprised to see the current cameras replaced with better high resolution cameras and perhaps a few more of them. As I'm sure any of you that are photographers can understand, with these cameras having different focal length lenses including some with very wide angles that tend to distort images, it can be an extra difficult processing challenge to get an accurate picture of the world around you. Imagine if as you turned your head your vision went from normal like a 50mm lens to a fisheye 15 mm lens and you were trying to identify objects and judge distance and speed. It would be very difficult.

It sure is fun being on the cutting edge of new technology.


----------



## Jason Krellner

I agree with you on being confused about behavior after exiting. I just disengage and take over. The first time I did it, it didn't want to slow down for the curve of the off ramp. And the second time, it started to accelerate even though there was traffic and turn lanes etc. I don't mind taking over anyway, so it works for me.


----------



## hdgmedic

John Griffith said:


> I received this update yesterday and today I got to test it. A few things to note for noobies. there are three steps to enable NOA. The first is a one time step to enable the feature and select the lane change behavior. The descriptions such as MadMax do not describe how the lane change is executed but rather how frequently it will attempt a lane change and is based on your set speed versus your actual speed. If you are traveling slower than your set speed and an adjacent lane is moving faster, it will attempt to change lanes. The delta in speed is what the different settings mean. With Madmax you only need to be going slightly slower for it to want to find a faster path. The second button to press is the one that appears after you have entered a route that includes freeway travel. To tell the system to use NOA instead of just AP, you need to press this button in the detailed list of turns. It will turn blue telling you it is ready. The final step is to double press the shifter all the way down (TM3) and watch the display change to a single blue line and NOA is engaged.
> 
> The next area of confusion is merging. Sometimes with moderate traffic it seems to handle the merger smoothly but in heavy traffic it drives like a skittish and timid ons lady. Most of us driving here in Souther CA are use to accelerating up to the speed of traffic or above it to effect a merger. Instead NOA always wants to slow down to merge. This can be dangerous for two reasons; 1) the drivers in the lane you are merging into expect you to speed up and 2) the drivers behind you expect you to speed up so when you abruptly slow down you create a problem for both drivers in that your behavior is unexpected. Be especially careful when merging onto a road with heavy traffic, especially stop & go traffic. It does not appear to handle this well yet.
> 
> Lane changing can be another area of confusion. In a lot of traffic, you may see the black sign saying it wants to change lanes and to confirm it but I initially found two and maybe three problems. I couldn't always tell which lane it wanted to change into so I wasn't sure whether to use the turn signal for a left or right turn, finally I found it easier to just use the drive select lever and give it a short pull down to confirm for it to go ahead. Second, it may speed up but then slow down and miss the opening. It almost always prefers to change in behind someone rather than in front of someone. Humans behave just the opposite. The reason that humans accelerate is that you reduce the chances of hitting someone in the new lane if you are speeding away from them and it gives them time to apply the brakes and slow down if need be. Slowing down and trying to squeeze in behind them is not the way people generally behave and leads to confusion for everyone. NOA needs to learn how humans handle these situations and to mimic human behavior. The instructions say you will hear a chime when the car wants to change lanes, but honestly, if it chimed I never heard it. Either the chime is too soft or missing and it needs to be strong enough to get our attention. When in heavy traffic and you are trying to watch the road and traffic it can be very hard to keep looking at the display to see if it wants to change lanes. With 4 to 8 lanes on a side here, it may or may not move you to the exit lane in time when traffic is heavy. My general rule is to start looking to get out of the HOV lane about 2 miles prior to the exit as it can easily take that long to fight your way over and it usually takes very aggressive driving to get there, especially in areas like near LAX on the 405 freeway. One time today, I had to direct the lane changes to get it over far enough and fast enough to make the exit and one time it did it almost correctly but the exit was 2 lanes wide and it put me in the wrong lane for the upcoming turn at the traffic light. The instructions say that a countdown message will appear warning you of distance remain before NOA reverts to AP but it it is there, I didn't see it so it needs to be more prominently displayed.
> 
> The last area, I am still confused on what we are supposed to do so hopefully someone that has this figured out better will chime in and that is what one is supposed to do and when once on the exit. At what point are we supposed to take over. It does a chime but still appears to be driving the car (somewhat erratically) and while one can force a disengagement (or maybe NOA is disengaged) the throttle continues to erratically change speed and the steering wheel fights you for control. The instructions posted by Tesla are not very clear. If the exit is one that leads to a stop sign or traffic signal with driver action required it should completely disengage NOA and AP and tell you to take control. If the exit is one that leads into another freeway with no stopping but merging it should continue to operate and not chime or anything other than driving the road and merging.
> 
> While on a navigation route and on surface streets, while passing vehicles parked along the road it gave the loud collision warning three times. It did not apply brakes and I could see no reason for the warning.
> 
> Finally, I think this is a huge step up from AP with a lot of promise. The car needs to learn a few things to drive a little better but the improvements are clearly coming and coming fast. I do think it will need the newer processor and I wouldn't be surprised to see the current cameras replaced with better high resolution cameras and perhaps a few more of them. As I'm sure any of you that are photographers can understand, with these cameras having different focal length lenses including some with very wide angles that tend to distort images, it can be an extra difficult processing challenge to get an accurate picture of the world around you. Imagine if as you turned your head your vision went from normal like a 50mm lens to a fisheye 15 mm lens and you were trying to identify objects and judge distance and speed. It would be very difficult.
> 
> It sure is fun being on the cutting edge of new technology.


And all of this time, I thought people rushed to merge in front of vehicles because they just wanted to be in front. Atleast, that is what I see: People who speed up even when there are large, gaping holes behind the vehicle they are trying to squeeze in front of.


----------



## GDN

I guess my commute just isn't best suited for NOA. One short drive is no real indication, but I'm only on a freeway for 1.5 miles and a Tollway for 4 or if I go a different way, on the Tollway for about 7 miles. 

I took the Freeway this morning, so I could experience the transition to the Tollway. I entered the right lane, started NOA and EAP. Remained in that lane as the exit is only a mile or so ahead of me. Just as I got to the right hand exit, the car put the left hand blinker on because it wanted to move to a faster lane. Corrected with steering wheel, EAP turns off. Get on the Tollway, unfortunately at 6:30 it's usually moving at 70 to 75 already. So no chance to experience a lane change, I remained in the middle lane. About a mile before my exit I did get a notification I'd need to be in the right lane. Turned on blinker and the car changed lanes for me. Approaching the exit, NOA recognized it, I turned on the blinker and it didn't maneuver that way, so I took over again.

Not the best first experience, but will say I'm trying to be careful and understand and watch for new messages. Not 100% sure what the car is going to do on it's own vs what I need to act on. Also with no further than I drive on highways it's likely not the best use of the tool anyway. I'll give it a few days, I'll learn more, feel more comfortable with it and will go from there. I'm sure more out on an open road, cruising, it could likely be the greatest thing. Rush hour traffic in a big town not likely it's strong suit or it's intention. I'll adapt and learn how to use it and I'm sure it will also continue to improve. The commute home will be different as traffic will be heavier, will see how it handles again later today.


----------



## M3OC Rules

JWardell said:


> At some point, Tesla is going to draw a line in the sand, and say all features and improvements from this point forward is for FSD only.


I don't think so and I hope not. EAP has a long ways to go. Competitors will continue to improve their offerings and while I haven't tried them it doesn't sound like Tesla has a huge advantage. Regardless of how good EAP is I think FSD will always be a huge step up because you won't have to actively monitoring or even be in the car. EAP and FSD are sold as separate options but they are utilizing the same sensors and processors so development on FSD can flow down into EAP. This should also help increase safety. I could see them adding features that are FSD only to try to appease those who purchased it because realistically it could still be quite a ways off. I think that will blow up in their face but they made their bed. I think we'll know when the V3 processor comes out. If there is no FSD, which there is no chance there will be at that point, then why start upgrading people unless they get something better.


----------



## ummgood

TOO Rules said:


> I don't think so and I hope not. EAP has a long ways to go. Competitors will continue to improve their offerings and while I haven't tried them it doesn't sound like Tesla has a huge advantage. Regardless of how good EAP is I think FSD will always be a huge step up because you won't have to actively monitoring or even be in the car. EAP and FSD are sold as separate options but they are utilizing the same sensors and processors so development on FSD can flow down into EAP. This should also help increase safety. I could see them adding features that are FSD only to try to appease those who purchased it because realistically it could still be quite a ways off. I think that will blow up in their face but they made their bed. I think we'll know when the V3 processor comes out. If there is no FSD, which there is no chance there will be at that point, then why start upgrading people unless they get something better.


While I agree with you that EAP should be constantly refined I disagree that Tesla doesn't have a huge advantage. I have driven plenty of cars that have LKAS and TACC and Tesla is leaps and bounds better than those solutions. I have driven Volvo, Honda, Mazda, and MB's solutions. They all have critical flaws that would make me cautious to even activate. For example Honda when you drop below 20MPH just gives up and will stop breaking and expect you to take over. Some manufacturers that have stop and go the breaking isn't smooth at all and can be alarming. Some cars when the bend in the road gets too sharp will launch into another lane. I haven't driven a Cadillac with super cruise but the problem with that system is if you actually look at what roads it is supported on (yes it is limited to certain major highways) it flat out doesn't work on all the roads I drive on in Austin TX (except for I-35) which I avoid like the plague. It is a joke. So yes Tesla has a huge advantage on their EAPP vs other manufacturers. They might catch up at some point but who cares because as long as I can safely trust the car to handle stop and go traffic and keep me in my lane then EAPP does what I purchased it for. In 5 years when they might catch up we'll see how they are doing financially because right now they don't see the writing on the wall. I was honestly skeptical on how much Tesla could disrupt the auto manufacturers early on but I am starting to lean towards this being the next iPhone moment where the incumbents had no clue what was going on and were in complete denial.


----------



## Caulin

It would be nice if you could turn off the audio for navigation for common destinations. Im using Nav on Autopilot for my commute to work, which I obviously know the route to.


----------



## M3OC Rules

ummgood said:


> While I agree with you that EAP should be constantly refined I disagree that Tesla doesn't have a huge advantage. I have driven plenty of cars that have LKAS and TACC and Tesla is leaps and bounds better than those solutions. I have driven Volvo, Honda, Mazda, and MB's solutions. They all have critical flaws that would make me cautious to even activate. For example Honda when you drop below 20MPH just gives up and will stop breaking and expect you to take over. Some manufacturers that have stop and go the breaking isn't smooth at all and can be alarming. Some cars when the bend in the road gets too sharp will launch into another lane. I haven't driven a Cadillac with super cruise but the problem with that system is if you actually look at what roads it is supported on (yes it is limited to certain major highways) it flat out doesn't work on all the roads I drive on in Austin TX (except for I-35) which I avoid like the plague. It is a joke. So yes Tesla has a huge advantage on their EAPP vs other manufacturers. They might catch up at some point but who cares because as long as I can safely trust the car to handle stop and go traffic and keep me in my lane then EAPP does what I purchased it for. In 5 years when they might catch up we'll see how they are doing financially because right now they don't see the writing on the wall. I was honestly skeptical on how much Tesla could disrupt the auto manufacturers early on but I am starting to lean towards this being the next iPhone moment where the incumbents had no clue what was going on and were in complete denial.


I tried LKAS on an Acura TL about a year ago and was thoroughly unimpressed but really don't have a good feel for what others have. I use autopilot probably beyond its usefulness just to see how well it does. But otherwise I'd say its mostly useful for situations where there is light traffic on freeways or highways or in stop and go traffic. If I only compared those situations to say Audi's solution is it dramatically better? A lot of the other EAP features feels more like a toy than truly helpful. Nav on Autopilot is fun but definitely beta. It handles corners pretty good but brings you much closer to other cars than normally people would. Its prone to false braking events. It doesn't handle merging cars in terms of giving people room. I've had mixed results using the auto parking as well. I think having all the cameras should give them an advantage over time but does it really right now over others blind spot warning systems. Sounds like your experience with other systems hasn't impressed you. Has anyone else here driven anything that approaches Tesla's autosteer and TACC? I found that Audi has Lidar on the A8 which they call an industry first.

"The Audi A8 is equipped with industry-first LIDAR laser scanner and a host of sensors and cameras to help monitor surrounding conditions. The data is sent to a powerful central driver assistance processor that decides how the vehicle's driving and assistance system will respond."

I love EAP and would recommend it but I get nervous about overselling it. I would feel more comfortable selling it if it worked better. One friend who ordered a Model 3 didn't get EAP. I had to restrain myself from really pushing it because I love it. I dropped some hints but I also didn't know if they would let him add it after he ordered. His car came with it even though he didn't pay. Now he says he uses it all the time and loves it.


----------



## ummgood

M3OC Rules said:


> I tried LKAS on an Acura TL about a year ago and was thoroughly unimpressed but really don't have a good feel for what others have. I use autopilot probably beyond its usefulness just to see how well it does. But otherwise I'd say its mostly useful for situations where there is light traffic on freeways or highways or in stop and go traffic. If I only compared those situations to say Audi's solution is it dramatically better? A lot of the other EAP features feels more like a toy than truly helpful. Nav on Autopilot is fun but definitely beta. It handles corners pretty good but brings you much closer to other cars than normally people would. Its prone to false braking events. It doesn't handle merging cars in terms of giving people room. I've had mixed results using the auto parking as well. I think having all the cameras should give them an advantage over time but does it really right now over others blind spot warning systems. Sounds like your experience with other systems hasn't impressed you. Has anyone else here driven anything that approaches Tesla's autosteer and TACC? I found that Audi has Lidar on the A8 which they call an industry first.
> 
> "The Audi A8 is equipped with industry-first LIDAR laser scanner and a host of sensors and cameras to help monitor surrounding conditions. The data is sent to a powerful central driver assistance processor that decides how the vehicle's driving and assistance system will respond."
> 
> I love EAP and would recommend it but I get nervous about overselling it. I would feel more comfortable selling it if it worked better. One friend who ordered a Model 3 didn't get EAP. I had to restrain myself from really pushing it because I love it. I dropped some hints but I also didn't know if they would let him add it after he ordered. His car came with it even though he didn't pay. Now he says he uses it all the time and loves it.


I haven't tried Audi's system so I don't know. You are right there are a lot of gimmicks that don't really work well. Parking is abysmal because I can reverse back in a car 2x as fast without having to correct over my Tesla's attempt. I have tried a perpendicular spot maybe 3x and was left unimpressed. Also Summon seems like a joke right now. I haven't tried it since v9 but before I could barely get the thing to work and then I would be trying to show someone and it wouldn't even connect with the car. It was a wee bit embarrassing.

With all the gimmicks set aside I do feel like just the lane keeping and TACC are really worth the money. I have no problem using it on surface streets (I know not the intended purpose) every morning and it does well 95% of the time where I am located. Also on a long road trip it was definitely worth the cost to me. I also have a German coworker that was wowed by it and he is used to a lot of the latest and greatest offerings from BMW, Audi, etc... He even said "Wow this thing is impressive and the best I have tried".

The reason I don't even give the other manufacturers a leg up in this is because when you buy the car you are stuck with the functionality you get until you sell it. Yes they can reflash the car at the dealership but what are the chances of that happening? And usually if they do reflash it is usually due to some tech bulletin and doesn't improve the behavior of the car. I have had my car since April and the autopilot has improved dramatically. Has it gotten where they promised? Not really. Do I know based on past experience that it will improve over time? Definitely yes. Just keep in mind that the beauty of this car is it does improve over time. To answer your concern about recommending it, I definitely would without a doubt. At the same time I would explain how the software updates work and how the car improves. Also I would explain that it isn't perfect but no one else on the market comes close and if someone thinks they could get value out of the system they should definitely get it.

I use the AP a ton. I didn't think I would use it as much as I do but I do. Sometimes for reasons I shouldn't be using it but I am always watching and it definitely has improved my stress level after I arrive at work after spending 35 minutes in the car going 4 miles.


----------



## Inahas

Caulin said:


> It would be nice if you could turn off the audio for navigation for common destinations. Im using Nav on Autopilot for my commute to work, which I obviously know the route to.


You can control the volume for the navigation audio in the settings. I turned it all the way down so I need to remember to turn it back up the next time I want to navigate to a "new" location.

But yeah it would be nice if you could associate certain predefined locations (eg. Home, Work) with a No audio option. It would be even better if it automatically guesses and pre-selects my destination when I get in the car (eg. Work in the morning, Home at work or when away). Actually, it would be nice if they just embed Waze functionality altogether


----------



## Bokonon

Inahas said:


> It would be even better if it automatically guesses and pre-selects my destination when I get in the car (eg. Work in the morning, Home at work or when away).


When FSD is implemented, it will apparently check your calendar to see where you need to be and just take you there, or take you to work/home otherwise, depending on your location.

In the meantime, a nice little trick that you can do is simply swipe down from the "Navigate" button on the map. If you're home, it will automatically navigate you to work; if you're at work or elsewhere, it will automatically navigate you home.


----------



## JWardell

I just found Cadillac's SuperCruise map. It's kind of comical to see the giant gaps in common highways around here. This is what some say is the best in the industry? Hah.
https://supercruise-map-viewer.cp.gm.com


----------



## M3OC Rules

JWardell said:


> I just found Cadillac's SuperCruise map. It's kind of comical to see the giant gaps in common highways around here. This is what some say is the best in the industry? Hah.
> https://supercruise-map-viewer.cp.gm.com


That is pretty bad. I wonder how often they update the maps on that. It looks like they aren't keeping up at all. Did they used to support those areas? I could see those being construction areas but it doesn't match up with what I know is under construction. Its very strange.


----------



## littlD

In some rainy weather on the way home today, this showed up:


----------



## ATechGuy

John Griffith said:


> I received this update yesterday and today I got to test it. A few things to note for noobies. there are three steps to enable NOA. The first is a one time step to enable the feature and select the lane change behavior.


That's assuming you SEE the option. I'm on 42.2 and I don't see the option yet. I only have the Autosteer (Beta) option, and then the next item down is summon. Does anyone else have 42.2 but no NOA? Perhaps a hard reboot will bring it on?


----------



## SoFlaModel3

I submitted a bug report today — the car consistently brakes to switch lanes when a car is in the blind spot even when it’s well below the self-imposed speed limit. That’s just bad practice and annoying for the people directly behind you.


----------



## aronth5

M3OC Rules said:


> I don't think so and I hope not. EAP has a long ways to go. Competitors will continue to improve their offerings and while I haven't tried them it doesn't sound like Tesla has a huge advantage. Regardless of how good EAP is I think FSD will always be a *huge step up because you won't have to actively monitoring or even be in the car.* EAP and FSD are sold as separate options but they are utilizing the same sensors and processors so development on FSD can flow down into EAP. This should also help increase safety. I could see them adding features that are FSD only to try to appease those who purchased it because realistically it could still be quite a ways off. I think that will blow up in their face but they made their bed. I think we'll know when the V3 processor comes out. If there is no FSD, which there is no chance there will be at that point, then why start upgrading people unless they get something better.


I think it's unreasonable to expect FSD will debut without the driver still actively monitoring the car. At least for some period of time. I could also see a scenario where part of the drive is done in NoA and some in FSD.
And yes I can hear the comments now that Tesla missed again by not delivering "true" self driving but FSD will come in increments.


----------



## garsh

I finally got the update this morning and tried it on the morning commute. There are two places along my commute where the highway divides. I'd always have to take over from Autopilot when I was in the lane that splits. Today, I made sure to stay in that lane to see what would happen. As hoped for, it seamlessly took the correct path!

I tried to also pay attention to the display, and I think there was a bug there. I was in the middle lane, navigating to the left. My attention was a little divided (since I was prepared to take over and trying to pay attention to what the car was doing), But I think the drive on nav display was showing the blue line (my path) going straight, while a gray path separated off of it to the left. So I was fully expecting the car to go the wrong way based on the display. I'll try to pay better attention to the display the next time.


----------



## MelindaV

ummgood said:


> 4. When I took the exit and the car deemed that the navigation on autopilot was over it looked like it went back into normal autopilot mode. That is what I wanted but the problem is the car started slowing to a stop for no reason. I would have expected it to continue on at the same speed without my prompting. I tapped the accelerator and it resumed back to normal speed.


The docs do note this as correct behavior.


----------



## littlD

ATechGuy said:


> That's assuming you SEE the option. I'm on 42.2 and I don't see the option yet. I only have the Autosteer (Beta) option, and then the next item down is summon. Does anyone else have 42.2 but no NOA? Perhaps a hard reboot will bring it on?


A Friend of mine just got 2018.42.3 and also doesn't see Nav on Autopilot, anyone else figure out why?


----------



## ummgood

MelindaV said:


> The docs do note this as correct behavior.


Wow that is surprising because without reading the docs it looked like everything in the car was setup to go as normal in AP. I know RTFM but to me then turn off AP all together so people don't get rear ended. Everything on the screen looked like it would continue. Not intuitive at all.


----------



## MelindaV

Remember, at


littlD said:


> A Friend of mine just got 2018.42.3 and also doesn't see Nav on Autopilot, anyone else figure out why?


likely due to not having the most updated maps. others have mentioned their service center needed to re-calibrate their camera(s) for Nav on AP to work.


----------



## beastmode13

Tried Navigate on Autopilot on the commute today. Overall I'm encouraged with the incremental improvements. By no means, it would be how I handle line changes and driving overall, too much reactivity and not enough anticipation. Then again it is probably better than 50% of the drivers on the road.

Pros:
- The single blue line is a nice indication for the path of travel
- Lane change notification is 1~2 miles in advance
- It actually would turn onto the off-ramp, albeit not consistently
- It seems like it requires less force on the steering wheel to register "Hands on wheel."

Cons:
- Can't do multiple lane change at once
- Still can't make up its mind on actually making the lane change. Too slow and require too big of gap.
- Work in progress still a long way to go from full self-driving.


----------



## Long Ranger

ummgood said:


> Wow that is surprising because without reading the docs it looked like everything in the car was setup to go as normal in AP. I know RTFM but to me then turn off AP all together so people don't get rear ended. Everything on the screen looked like it would continue. Not intuitive at all.


I haven't tried NOA yet, but it makes sense to me how they implemented the handoff. I can't see how they could have done it by keeping TACC enabled after the car has exited. The car can't detect stop signs or lights yet. You'd have people plowing into intersections thinking the car still knew what it was doing. And if it just immediately shut off TACC on the exit, then you'd experience full regen braking. I think the slowing is how they encourage you to get your foot on the accelerator.


----------



## Deadbattery

Made a run from Chicopee to Sandwich on 42.3 today. Had to disengage twice and was pretty white knuckle a couple other times. 

Turning on the drive on nave feature is easy. It is wonky on the first ramp. Lots of over correcting. 

Acceleration suggestions and staying in lane continues to improve. 

White line drops at exits were less of an issue but the car still wanders to the right even though I am 50 miles to the next turn. 

I had to take it out as it took the last offramp of the day as the overcorrections were dramatic. 

This is a very cool feature that will obviously get dramatically better with time. As of now it is VERY Beta

Forget about self driving, if 2 years from now if Tesla is the only credible vendor with this “feature”? No one will buy a car that does not do this.


----------



## mrkymarc

I think NoA needs a second speed setting. Max “cruising” speed and max “passing/merging” speed. Often I’m going along at 65, I need to get over a lane to get to my exit. A line of cars is coming up behind me at 68ish and my lane change window is closing. The car should just accelerate to 70 to make that window, but I either have to take control or increase the max speed with the wheel.


----------



## SoFlaModel3

beastmode13 said:


> Cons:
> - Can't do multiple lane change at once


I wouldn't expect it to ever do that. While we generally all do this all the time, it can easily get you pulled over for aggressive driving.


----------



## Dogwhistle

As far as audio alerts for lane changes, I’ve noticed that the car WILL ping me about 10-15 seconds after a warning of an impending route-required lane change pops up. However, it does NOT ping for only a speed-advantage lane change.


----------



## SoFlaModel3

Put this video together and overall I am very impressed with Navigate on Autopilot!


----------



## Bokonon

Quick take on NOA after a brief test along I-95 and I-90:

Really nifty feature with a lot of promise.
Off-ramp handling is a mixed bag unless you're in gridlock. At speed, the car handles long, smooth exits decently, but doesn't slow down enough for my liking heading into into exits with immediate, tight turns (as seems to be the norm around an ancient city like Boston). In gridlock (which I got to experience on a Saturday morning thanks to an SUV that had crashed into a guardrail in the middle of the 90E-95S interchange), this isn't an issue at all, because you're just crawling along. And I expect the behavior at speed will only improve over time.
Pay close attention when taking an off-ramp, even when the lanes are clearly marked. My car started inexplicably dancing left and right as it took the 95N exit to 90W, as if it were expecting the off-ramp to be curved (it is straight) and kept having to correct itself in reaction to the actual lane lines. I filed a bug report.
I had speed-based lane-changes set to "Average" and found that it suggested lane changes just as I began to grow impatient with the speed of traffic in my lane. It was a bit eerie. 
As others have noted, merging into traffic from an on ramp is a work in progress. Expect to take over, especially if your roads are populated with Massholes (or similar species) who make a sport out of blocking merging traffic for as long as possible. 
Caveats aside, I'm a big fan of this feature. It relieves you of yet another basic driving function ("which lane should I be in, and when should I change?") so you can pay more attention to your surroundings and feel less fatigued at the end of a longer trip. Much like Autosteer, as its reliability improves over time and its operating parameters start to feel second-nature, it will become a helpful tool that commuters and road-trippers regularly rely upon without a second thought.


----------



## PNWmisty

JWardell said:


> I just found Cadillac's SuperCruise map. It's kind of comical to see the giant gaps in common highways around here. This is what some say is the best in the industry? Hah.
> https://supercruise-map-viewer.cp.gm.com


Wow! That map of SuperCruise enabled roads looks like the map I keep in my head of roads to avoid if at all possible!


----------



## JWardell

PNWmisty said:


> Wow! That map of SuperCruise enabled roads looks like the map I keep in my head of roads to avoid if at all possible!


Probably due to the higher chance of being stuck behind a big slow Cadillac!


----------



## hdgmedic

The more I am reading the posts of various people on various topics, the more I think autopilot is definitely a better driver. The concerns I am seeing and the requests that are being suggested are not, at all proper road etiquette or examples of defensive driving.


----------



## AZBMT

Got 42.3 from 39.7 last Friday and had a chance to test NOA a couple times on US-60 here in Phoenix in medium to light traffic.
I'll start by saying I love the car and appreciate that EAP is constantly improving. That's a big reason why I bought the car in the first place.
That said, I found myself fighting the car more often than I wanted, having to either disconnect using the gear stalk or overtaking the steering wheel with a fair amount of force - jerking motion resulting (which I think is too much force, and that is a another discussion). BTW I am on the MadMax setting, and it certainly does not resemble the movie, where you would think it is a little more aggressive and assertive in changing lanes. I understand it has more to do with how much slower your current lane is compared to other lanes, but it seems to me that it just takes TOO MUCH TIME and becomes dangerous. For example: I'm in a center lane and come up to a slower moving car. The car slows down to keep the distance, and I wait for the car to suggest a lane change.... 10 seconds later, still no suggestion, So I decide to override by forcing a lane change using the left turn blinker. Only problem is that, by the time the car actually starts to engage in the next lane, I have one or two cars passing me. By then, the car abruptly returns to my current lane and I end up having to cancel AP again. I wait for the cars to pass me, then I manually drive around the slow car, merge back to the original lane, then re-engage AP, then tap NOA again.... This happened a few times. Now, I did enjoy the off-ramp behavior. 

Another thing that annoys me, and that occasionally forces me to turn off autosteer, is the swerving. To a point where it scares me because it comes too close to vehicles in other lanes. Fort the most part though, it does OK on relatively straight freeways, but I find that even during an auto lane change, there is just wayyy too much swerving. I don't know if this is just a hardware speed or bandwidth limitation, or it is just that the closed loop parameters are not set aggressively enough to minimize error. Now there might be reasons for this that I don't understand?


----------



## @gravityrydr

Drove a 5 hour round trip yesterday, the majority of it on NOA. I'm impressed for the most part. Open highway is where it excels, smooth lane changes and mostly good choices on when to pass and position for exits. That said, in fast flowing heavy traffic, exits can be a challenge. There were a few times where I had to take over. A couple of highly curved ramps it had trouble weaving a bit in the turn. There were a couple of times when it was freaked out by trucks in the next lane either by braking heavily suddenly as if thinking they were moving over or just refusing to pass them. There was one exit where NOA caught me napping where I had not realized the route had changed to a different exit due to traffic and I was momentarily surprised when the car took the exit.


----------



## PNWmisty

AZBMT said:


> Now there might be reasons for this that I don't understand?


What tires and pressure are you running?

The EAP system is probably tuned using the 18" Michelin MXM4 when the recommended pressure was 45 psi. These tires actually have pretty good steering response for an all-season radial. Regardless of detracting comments from those who want a track focussed tire, the MXM4 has a construction that is quite advanced and derived from higher performance tires. I've noticed it's actually very competent at straight line stability, it is very stable side to side and is responsive to turning inputs. Anything slower to respond (or lower air pressure) might cause the ping-ponging you described. I have the MXM4's at 44 psi and on a few occasions/situations EAP will do what I would call a "long weave" but it's not too noticeable (and this is probably not tire related). It did seem to ping-pong a bit when I had only 40 psi but that was on earlier software too so...


----------



## Ksb466

Agree with many commenters here on suggested improvements. NOA is very good now, but will really benefit from improvements. Things I don’t see mentioned above :
- would like ding option to turn on immediately when lane Change is recommended so I don’t need to look at screen. Right now it only does it after a while.
-when in left most lane and traffic is clear in the closest right lane would like Tesla to move right to allow others to pass on left.
-when I choose to ignore a suggested lane change, it never disappears even when it’s clearly no longer optimal. Only way is see to reset it in NOA is to half click the turn signal the opposite way.I would prefer the software constantly revisit it’s recommendation if it has been ignored


----------



## AZBMT

PNWmisty said:


> What tires and pressure are you running?
> 
> The EAP system is probably tuned using the 18" Michelin MXM4 when the recommended pressure was 45 psi. These tires actually have pretty good steering response for an all-season radial. Regardless of detracting comments from those who want a track focussed tire, the MXM4 has a construction that is quite advanced and derived from higher performance tires. I've noticed it's actually very competent at straight line stability, it is very stable side to side and is responsive to turning inputs. Anything slower to respond (or lower air pressure) might cause the ping-ponging you described. I have the MXM4's at 44 psi and on a few occasions/situations EAP will do what I would call a "long weave" but it's not too noticeable (and this is probably not tire related). It did seem to ping-pong a bit when I had only 40 psi but that was on earlier software too so...


I'm using the stock 18in Michelin MXM4s at 45 psi.


----------



## PNWmisty

AZBMT said:


> I'm using the stock 18in Michelin MXM4s at 45 psi.


It doesn't sound like it's probably tire related then. So, after a few minutes of driving the TPMS reads 47-48 psi and 49 psi on a hot day/higher speeds)? I'm just surprised the same software ping-pongs on some cars but not others.


----------



## Smokey S

My NOA observations at Mad Max setting:
1) With initial on-ramps - it’s a little slow getting up to speed and seems to wait until to last minute to merge left. However, for long on-ramps merging it will signal you to change lanes.
2) At short off ramps on major interchanges, it can’t react fast enough to get off while negotiating with merging cars.
3) On passing slower cars, it varies on when it signals a lane change from center lane
A) If traffic is traveling at less than 5 - 10 mph below your speed, then it will make lane changes to right or left depending on traffic in those lanes
B) It will recommend lane change and you hit stalk to confirm, but if cars are fast approaching it will show red line and then make lane change after cars pass.
C) I noticed a recommended lane change but I didn’t confirm — it eventually cancel the recommendation. Once it keep recommending change which I eventually confirmed. So, it isn’t consistent in this manner.
4) On off-ramp merging on interchanges or exits where is had enough time. It would initiate turn signal, slow down if necessary and take the off ramp. This was very smooth, plus consistent and as expected if you did it. 
5) At end of route or with changes to non-interstate roads, it would notify you that NOA would be ending in 400/xxx feet.
Overall, it exceeded my expectations and is a great feature to use on interstate, toll roads or freeway routes. With dense traffic at exits and entries to interstate/freeways/toll roads, I would suggest , for safety reasons, you disengage NOA and reengage once you are in the flow of traffic.


----------



## M3OC Rules

SoFlaModel3 said:


> I wouldn't expect it to ever do that. While we generally all do this all the time, it can easily get you pulled over for aggressive driving.


Really? I was taught that was perfectly fine. I think its depends on the situation. I could see if you're weaving through traffic but Autopilot is a long ways from that. Its the opposite problem where sometimes it takes forever to change lanes and sometimes aborts for no reason. I think it would be fine if there was a couple seconds in between a double lane change with the blinker off or if it did a smooth double lane change. They have bigger issues right now though like a single lane reliable lane change.


----------



## Dogwhistle

My 40 mile commute via interstate has several “forks” along the way, where one center lane could go two directions. I intentionally made sure the car was in the “decision” lane each time. It took them all like a champ, even signaling as it broke in the proper direction. These all required intervention and A/P disengagement previously. Very impressed!


----------



## iChris93

Dogwhistle said:


> My 40 mile commute via interstate has several "forks" along the way, where one center lane could go two directions. I intentionally made sure the car was in the "decision" lane each time. It took them all like a champ, even signaling as it broke in the proper direction. These all required intervention and A/P disengagement previously. Very impressed!


That's impressive. I'm looking forward to getting an update with it.


----------



## garsh

Dogwhistle said:


> My 40 mile commute via interstate has several "forks" along the way, where one center lane could go two directions. I intentionally made sure the car was in the "decision" lane each time. It took them all like a champ, even signaling as it broke in the proper direction. These all required intervention and A/P disengagement previously. Very impressed!


I've been playing with that too. I have two of those scenarios during my morning commute. I do have two issues with it:

1. Signalling. I don't think the car should be signalling a lane-split decision. This is a middle lane. Signalling indicates that you plan on changing lanes. It's confusing to other drivers, and isn't really helpful. The people behind you have to wait for you whether you signal or not.

2. The display. I confirmed that when there's a decision, the blue "nav on autopilot" line highlights the *wrong* path, while a grey line highlights the path that navigation says to take. In my case, the "wrong" path is straight, while the navigation path curves away to the left - it may simply be that NOA displays the straight path always. The car signals & takes the correct path, but I don't understand why the blue line is showing the other direction in this case. It's confusing.


----------



## slasher016

I used NOA a lot this weekend. Here's my observations, a few of which have been mentioned.

1) Overall it's a very nice feature. It works great on very sharp exit ramps which never worked before, and it consistently takes the exits fine.
2) Agree with the notion that it should suggest you to get out of the fast lane when the middle lane(s) (or right lane) is clear.
3) I don't like the way it tries to get into the exit lane at times. If there's a string of cars, it always slows down even when speeding up just a little often is the better choice.
4) I think it puts you in the slow lane way too early for the exit, especially when there's slow moving traffic. Yesterday it put me in the slow lane 1.5 miles from the exit when that lane was doing 57 in a 65 with my speed set to 72.


----------



## ADK46

AZBMT said:


> ... Another thing that annoys me, and that occasionally forces me to turn off autosteer, is the swerving. To a point where it scares me because it comes too close to vehicles in other lanes. Fort the most part though, it does OK on relatively straight freeways, but I find that even during an auto lane change, there is just wayyy too much swerving. I don't know if this is just a hardware speed or bandwidth limitation, or it is just that the closed loop parameters are not set aggressively enough to minimize error. Now there might be reasons for this that I don't understand?


I very much agree, if you mean by "swerving" that the car pays insufficient attention to proper positioning within a lane. On the moderately curvy highways I travel, it causes me high anxiety. I have to bail out on some curves if another car is present. Staying well within the lines, away from other cars, is a basic but very important skill; my car doesn't have it.

Many don't have this complaint, though. The nature of the roads we travel will affect our perceptions. But am I hearing that some of us are OK with our cars doing something bad, even dangerous, like braking unexpectedly in front of another car? We must not accept this. There's a risk that "he drives like a Tesla" becomes an insult, that we'll lose our coolness factor, reviled like Prius hyper-milers.

I sense that Version 9 is trying harder to follow a curve, but I am detecting a longish iteration cycle - jerky corrections every half-second or so (i.e., every 50-100 feet). Is the computer overwhelmed? Not so much that the engineers can't find the cycles to implement Mad Max stuff. More cycles on lane positioning, please.


----------



## GDN

GDN said:


> I guess my commute just isn't best suited for NOA. One short drive is no real indication, but I'm only on a freeway for 1.5 miles and a Tollway for 4 or if I go a different way, on the Tollway for about 7 miles.
> 
> I took the Freeway this morning, so I could experience the transition to the Tollway. I entered the right lane, started NOA and EAP. Remained in that lane as the exit is only a mile or so ahead of me. Just as I got to the right hand exit, the car put the left hand blinker on because it wanted to move to a faster lane. Corrected with steering wheel, EAP turns off. Get on the Tollway, unfortunately at 6:30 it's usually moving at 70 to 75 already. So no chance to experience a lane change, I remained in the middle lane. About a mile before my exit I did get a notification I'd need to be in the right lane. Turned on blinker and the car changed lanes for me. Approaching the exit, NOA recognized it, I turned on the blinker and it didn't maneuver that way, so I took over again.
> 
> Not the best first experience, but will say I'm trying to be careful and understand and watch for new messages. Not 100% sure what the car is going to do on it's own vs what I need to act on. Also with no further than I drive on highways it's likely not the best use of the tool anyway. I'll give it a few days, I'll learn more, feel more comfortable with it and will go from there. I'm sure more out on an open road, cruising, it could likely be the greatest thing. Rush hour traffic in a big town not likely it's strong suit or it's intention. I'll adapt and learn how to use it and I'm sure it will also continue to improve. The commute home will be different as traffic will be heavier, will see how it handles again later today.


An update to my experience. It's as most others report. I've had a few more drives now and the few freeway changes/exits I've made, the car knew which one to take and took them. In two cases however I felt speed may have been a bit too much and it veered way to wide. I took over steering on both. Just not willing yet to see how close to the wall it wants to take me.

Otherwise, lane changes are good and it will change into a fairly tight spot, at least when moving at rush hour speeds. Also one lane change it tried 3 times because the car ahead of me in the lane I was changing into kept slowing down, my car recognized there may not be room, but as we'd speed up and slow down it did make the lane change when there was room. I was impressed.

Very nice first steps, and as usual with Tesla, I figure the tweaks over the next two months will make this a really nice dependable feature.


----------



## Derik

I got to use the feature for the first real time on my commute this morning (it's 45 miles one way.. so we'll try it again on the way home).

So far it's pretty good. It did suggest a few lane changes and I ignored them because I can see the traffic up ahead would have been worse in the lane it wanted me to be in. So the better choice was just to stay in the slower lane for a bit longer. (All I kept thinking was the opening to office space with it's lane suggestions).

Now part of my drive is in an HOV lane and I'm lucky enough to have an exit directly from the HOV lane right next to my office. But the navigation still doesn't want me to go into the HOV lane even though the allow HOV lane is marked. Once I got in it did fine, but when I approached the exit it wanted me in the right lane of the HOV land and was looking for the freeway exit. Of course there wasn't one there, and the navigation updated after I passed the exit and then figured out I was in the HOV lane. The exit worked flawlessly from the HOV lane then. 
Maybe they can add some way to detect if the vehicle is in the HOV lane and update the navigation to show it's in the HOV lane. I'm pretty sure GPS alone doesn't have the accuracy to determine what lane you are in, so it would need to look for the solid yellow / white lines. 
Now on the way home tonight I need to see if it'll suggest crossing the solid lines from the HOV lane if the traffic is moving better on the other side. Hopefully it's smart enough to not suggest that maneuver. But we will see!
Overall this is a pretty amazing improvement and I give it a full 2 thumbs up. It's only going to get better as time goes on. Have I said how much I love this car lately?


----------



## Trknz

I had the chance to test this out more fully during my commute today -

*Good:*

- Kept the Lane much better at a split in the highway to my office, whereas it would veer right before 
- Took my exit home nicely, signaled and started to turn off the exit with NOA disengaging about halfway to the merge point

*Not so great:*

- While it notifies you about upcoming exits / proper lane positioning it does so much later than I would prefer - about a mile out vs. 2 -3. 
- The exit off of the first highway I take forced NOA to disengage about 30 yards before the exit - it is a pretty curvey exit so I guess it's just not supported yet?
- My work exit requires me to merge over to the right hand lane (against traffic from another road) before taking an exit on the right off the highway. It waited until I was less than a half mile from my exit traveling at 70MPH before starting to signal me to move over a lane - need to merge and slow down much earlier so I had to take over.

Definitely cool to see progress here but a ways to go yet...the one exit at least was a good example as to how it should work vs the two that didn't work out so well.


----------



## RichEV

Trknz said:


> *Not so great:*
> 
> - While it notifies you about upcoming exits / proper lane positioning it does so much later than I would prefer - about a mile out vs. 2 -3.


Which NOA setting were you on?


----------



## AZBMT

Derik said:


> (All I kept thinking was the opening to office space with it's lane suggestions).


Ha ha! That is awesome. Love that movie!


----------



## Trknz

RichEV said:


> Which NOA setting were you on?


I'm on 'Average' at the moment - mild was too passive in my first test.


----------



## Ksb466

Derik said:


> I got to use the feature for the first real time on my commute this morning (it's 45 miles one way.. so we'll try it again on the way home).
> 
> So far it's pretty good. It did suggest a few lane changes and I ignored them because I can see the traffic up ahead would have been worse in the lane it wanted me to be in. So the better choice was just to stay in the slower lane for a bit longer. (All I kept thinking was the opening to office space with it's lane suggestions).
> 
> Now part of my drive is in an HOV lane and I'm lucky enough to have an exit directly from the HOV lane right next to my office. But the navigation still doesn't want me to go into the HOV lane even though the allow HOV lane is marked. Once I got in it did fine, but when I approached the exit it wanted me in the right lane of the HOV land and was looking for the freeway exit. Of course there wasn't one there, and the navigation updated after I passed the exit and then figured out I was in the HOV lane. The exit worked flawlessly from the HOV lane then.
> Maybe they can add some way to detect if the vehicle is in the HOV lane and update the navigation to show it's in the HOV lane. I'm pretty sure GPS alone doesn't have the accuracy to determine what lane you are in, so it would need to look for the solid yellow / white lines.
> Now on the way home tonight I need to see if it'll suggest crossing the solid lines from the HOV lane if the traffic is moving better on the other side. Hopefully it's smart enough to not suggest that maneuver. But we will see!
> Overall this is a pretty amazing improvement and I give it a full 2 thumbs up. It's only going to get better as time goes on. Have I said how much I love this car lately?


For me it did not suggest moving out of HOV while the lines were solid. Worked well in that regard


----------



## BlueMeanie

I drove with NoA from Cincinnati to Dayton yesterday with zero inputs from me (other than the nags).

It negotiated construction zones, lane shifts, and exits flawlessly. It let cars merge in front as they entered the highway, sometimes slowing down to let them in. 

I am, overall, very impressed!


----------



## beastmode13

2018.42.3 MadMax mode NOA. All four lanes changes in the video were made with NOA. I was pleasantly surprised that it made lane changes with much tighter space than previous versions of AutoPilot. For what is worth, there is still much work needs to be done. 90 minutes later I was in denser traffic, the NOA didn't work as well, it lacks the LA Traffic mode.


----------



## AZBMT

Ksb466 said:


> For me it did not suggest moving out of HOV while the lines were solid. Worked well in that regard


The issue I have here in the Phoenix area is that Autopilot OR NOA will not let me cross the carpool solid line, even though it is permitted here.


----------



## evannole

I had two very positive experiences with Nav on Autopilot this evening on my commute home, both on the I-75/I-85 "Downtown Connector" in Atlanta.

First, I was in the HOV/Diamond lane, all the way to the left, in fairly heavy traffic. While I was moving at about 30 mph, another car decided to hop in the HOV lane in front of me. There was plenty of room, and it was a perfectly legitimate move, but prior versions of EAP would not have reacted to this car's moving into my lane until it was all the way in, at which point EAP would slow rather suddenly and awkwardly. It didn't take me long to decide that this was not desirable behavior, and I had developed the habit of disengaging EAP and just slowing manually when I saw people starting to cut over. In this case, however, the car clearly saw the other vehicle cutting in, and slowed gradually and gracefully to let them in, just as a courteous human driver would. This is a big step, in my book. Minimizing the need for manual intervention in common scenarios is what will make it more or a truly useful, reliable tool and less of a novelty, and I think it's getting pretty close in that regard.

About two miles later, the Downtown Connector splits, with three lanes of I-75 NB going off to the right, and three of I-85 off to the left. The HOV lane remains on the far left, and has the opposite split; if you stay straight, you remain on I-85, while if you exit to the left, you'll go under I-85 and meet up with I-75, in the dedicated I-75 HOV lane, on which I have drawn a red arrow on this image:








This evening, Nav on Autopilot initially wanted me to start moving over from the Diamond lane to the regular I-75 lanes on the right, but since the HOV lane was moving better and I didn't want to cut across three lanes of traffic, I ignored the requests, and it eventually stopped asking me to change lanes. The GPS directions on the screen showed my next move being 11 miles north on I-75 in Marietta. As I approached the spot where the HOV lane splits off, however, the car put on its LEFT blinker and veered perfectly off to the left onto the I-75 HOV lane, exactly as I wanted it to. I actually said aloud, "Magic!" This is not really such a big feature in and of itself, since it's pretty much just as easy for me to take the exit as it is to allow (and monitor) the car's doing it. But this really shows us what could be possible in the not so distant future, which is pretty exciting. I have little doubt that things are just going to keep getting better. I can't get over how much EAP has improved in the 3+ months I have owned the car.


----------



## garsh

On my commute home yesterday, NOA kept telling to switch from the right lane to the next lane to "continue on my route". But there was no need to do so - I was perfectly fine to stay in the right lane in all three cases - the right lane didn't end, or turn into an "exit-only" lane, or anything like that.

And to clarify, it was not recommending that I switch lanes to pass a slower vehicle. I *was* the slow vehicle in the right lane with nothing in front of me.


----------



## garsh

garsh said:


> 2. The display. I confirmed that when there's a decision, the blue "nav on autopilot" line highlights the *wrong* path, while a grey line highlights the path that navigation says to take. In my case, the "wrong" path is straight, while the navigation path curves away to the left - it may simply be that NOA displays the straight path always. The car signals & takes the correct path, but I don't understand why the blue line is showing the other direction in this case. It's confusing.


I took a short 5-second video showing this behavior. Sorry for the lack of stabilization and the vertical video. I was keeping one hand on the wheel and my eyes on the road, but I still feel guilty for recording a video while driving.


----------



## Derik

Derik said:


> I got to use the feature for the first real time on my commute this morning (it's 45 miles one way.. so we'll try it again on the way home).
> 
> So far it's pretty good. It did suggest a few lane changes and I ignored them because I can see the traffic up ahead would have been worse in the lane it wanted me to be in. So the better choice was just to stay in the slower lane for a bit longer. (All I kept thinking was the opening to office space with it's lane suggestions).
> 
> Now part of my drive is in an HOV lane and I'm lucky enough to have an exit directly from the HOV lane right next to my office. But the navigation still doesn't want me to go into the HOV lane even though the allow HOV lane is marked. Once I got in it did fine, but when I approached the exit it wanted me in the right lane of the HOV land and was looking for the freeway exit. Of course there wasn't one there, and the navigation updated after I passed the exit and then figured out I was in the HOV lane. The exit worked flawlessly from the HOV lane then.
> Maybe they can add some way to detect if the vehicle is in the HOV lane and update the navigation to show it's in the HOV lane. I'm pretty sure GPS alone doesn't have the accuracy to determine what lane you are in, so it would need to look for the solid yellow / white lines.
> Now on the way home tonight I need to see if it'll suggest crossing the solid lines from the HOV lane if the traffic is moving better on the other side. Hopefully it's smart enough to not suggest that maneuver. But we will see!
> Overall this is a pretty amazing improvement and I give it a full 2 thumbs up. It's only going to get better as time goes on. Have I said how much I love this car lately?


So on my way home it actually told me to use the HOV onramp. Paid a bit closer attention to the lane markings on the screen and it doesn't even show the other lanes as options to move into. So it must be reading the solid white lines as do not cross. Glad it does that!. Ride back into work again tried to get me to exit at HOV lane, but this time it didn't recalculate fast enough and I had to disable NOA and exit normally because it would have missed the offramp.


----------



## Achooo

I don't have the HOV stickers yet so don't have access to HOV lanes. I have the HOV lanes setting turned off in navigation, yet the NOA tried twice to switch into the faster HOV lane to my left. Reported both incidents as a bug report. On another occasion, I confirmed a lane change to the right. The car started moving right and half way through the lane change a semi had started merging into the same lane. The car didn't even seem to notice. I had to take over and get back in my lane to prevent from being rolled over by a semi. 

Again, this is awesome stuff, but requires a higher degree of attentiveness than any other previous autopilot features. Drive carefully friends! I saw a lady in a model X yesterday texting during a lane change. Watch for them Teslas! haha


----------



## Rich M

I got a popup while using NoA yesterday: "Construction Detected" on entering a construction zone, but it disappeared before I could read the second line of text, so I'm not sure what it was suggesting. It continued navigating just fine.


----------



## slasher016

Rich M said:


> I got a popup while using NoA yesterday: "Construction Detected" on entering a construction zone, but it disappeared before I could read the second line of text, so I'm not sure what it was suggesting. It continued navigating just fine.


It says something along the lines of "Navigate on Auto-Pilot may be limited." I've had the same experience; it detected it then immediately went away.


----------



## GDN

Using NOA it doesn't detect if I don't take a suggested exit until I am past it. Twice this week on the way home I used NOA. It suggests that I should take the Tollway I was on for a few miles and then exit a city street and cut through to be faster than the stop and go traffic I was in. I didn't want to, I wanted to remain where I was and then connect to 635, a freeway. I wanted NOA to navigate and get me closer to home even if it was slower. 

Two different days, two different exits, I didn't move over to the right as it suggested to exit. NOA was aware of all 3 lanes and knew I was in the middle lane. It knew I had not moved over, so it truly should have known I didn't exit. However as I moved forward in traffic it continued to say, turn right in 400 ft. Turn right on Royal Lane, etc. When in fact I was not on the access road, I was still on the Tollway and could not turn if I wanted to. Again, the display still showed me in the middle lane and GPS should have been able to determine I wasn't on the access road, but it wanted to give directions to continue to navigate as though I was.

If I'd been moving 70 MPH I would think that maybe it didn't have time to catch up, but unfortunately it was stop and go and took almost 30 seconds from the exit I passed to where I crossed over the road it was telling me to turn on.

Small tweaks I'm sure they'll get to, but it is typically so fast and good at rerouting, I wouldn't expect this to be a challenge.


----------



## NR4P

I tried NOA yesterday.

When there was a problem, such as car slowing in front of me, it asked me (via the screen) to turn on the directional signal to move over.
And when I approached the exit, it asked me to put on directional signal before it would move.

If it doesn't signal on its own, and I have to look at the screen, and then signal, that's more work than I did before. (I didn't look at the screen before). And my eyes come off the road more often now.

Is this the normal behavior?


----------



## Jimbydude

NR4P said:


> I tried NOA yesterday.
> 
> When there was a problem, such as car slowing in front of me, it asked me (via the screen) to turn on the directional signal to move over.
> And when I approached the exit, it asked me to put on directional signal before it would move.
> 
> If it doesn't signal on its own, and I have to look at the screen, and then signal, that's more work than I did before. (I didn't look at the screen before). And my eyes come off the road more often now.
> 
> Is this the normal behavior?


I understand the incremental nature of NoA, but I totally agree. I'm finding that it's way more stressful constantly checking the screen fro messages. Also, as I now wear glasses for close up, i can no longer quickly switch back and forth. I realize that the screen also shows the blue path finder line but I'm still looking back and forth...

...incidentally, on way home took this video. Takes AR to a whole new level ! (had really cool video from dashcam of a blue line in middle road on way home, but can't upload ;-( )


----------



## garsh

garsh said:


> On my commute home yesterday, NOA kept telling to switch from the right lane to the next lane to "continue on my route". But there was no need to do so - I was perfectly fine to stay in the right lane in all three cases - the right lane didn't end, or turn into an "exit-only" lane, or anything like that.
> 
> And to clarify, it was not recommending that I switch lanes to pass a slower vehicle. I *was* the slow vehicle in the right lane with nothing in front of me.


I've now spent about 9 hours driving with Nav on Autopilot, and I now better understand the circumstances that cause this bug. This only happens when I'm passing either an off-ramp or an on-ramp. It doesn't *consistently* happen when I'm passing a ramp, but I have to be passing a ramp in order for it to occur.

It's a strange bug.


----------



## smatthew

SoFlaModel3 said:


> I wouldn't expect it to ever do that. While we generally all do this all the time, it can easily get you pulled over for aggressive driving.


Exactly. Multiple lane changes are illegal! People say "oh my Tesla takes it's sweet time to change lanes." Yes it does. Because it's following the law and signaling before changing lanes.


----------



## barjohn

It's been a couple of weeks since 42.4 with NoA was released and Tesla should have both received a lot of feedback and real driving data. I would hope we will see an update soon with some real improvements to make it more useful. As it is now, it is marginally useful in some places at some times and virtually unusable in other places or times. One source of phantom braking I am finding is where you are in the HOV lane and the road up ahead curves to the left and the cars in the normal lanes are stopped or barely moving. From the cars vantage point it appears that the slow/stopped cars are dead ahead in your path and it slows down abruptly ignoring the fact that the road curves away and the lane you are in curves away from the stopped traffic. It will do it repeatedly unless you shut it off or press on the accelerator until it becomes more obvious that you will not be running into the vehicles. This is the type of scenario where the car needs to look further ahead at the map and have sufficient position accuracy that it knows that the lane it is in will not run into the stopped vehicles. To be safer than a human, the system must look ahead further than humans do when driving. It is this ability that allows us to anticipate a potential problem before ti happens. I am also finding that the steering is not as smooth as V8 in many cases and seems to be making a lot of corrections where holding steady would be better. Accurate positional awareness is frequently not there, especially when it comes to the HOV lanes. I have had it ignore the entrance and try to exit where there was no legal exit. I have also found that it will change routing on you during a trip with out telling you it is changing or why such as due to an accident ahead or heavy traffic, rerouting and then allowing you to confirm or deny. I even tried to change the setting to only re-route if saving 30 minutes or more and it seems to ignore that setting.

Here's hoping for better sooner!


----------



## Tessie

I love my M3 and NAV on AP helps me a lot (83 with some vision issues). It would help me enormously if I got an audible (ping?) when the confirm pop up appears. Is it just me or can anyone else agree?


----------



## Flashgj

Tessie said:


> I love my M3 and NAV on AP helps me a lot (83 with some vision issues). It would help me enormously if I got an audible (ping?) when the confirm pop up appears. Is it just me or can anyone else agree?


I agree, there are several instances where a very mello chime, for example, to let us know that something on the screen has popped up that we should be aware of would be nice. I am not constantly glancing at my screen so I sometimes I miss these notifications.


----------



## BlueMeanie

Another NOA update. Drove from Cincinnati to the Great Smoky Mountain National Park this past weekend, 5 hours each way, and NOA performed beautifully.
Only twice did I decide to take over. Once was coming in through Knoxville during rush hour, the second was in heavy rain driving over mountain passes on the way back to Cincinnati. 
In the heavy rain there were 3 times the car attempted to change lanes where we got about 1/2 way into the next lane and the car quickly swerved back into the original lane - even when no cars were present in the other lane. At least twice there was a car in the next further lane over, and perhaps my car couldn't tell if it would be safe to get over especially with the rain.

I'm looking forward to using it on a drive we'll be taking to Gulf Shores in the next few weeks. 
According to Elon, when the fleet gets to 1,000,000 miles cumulatively driven on NOA, it will be able to change lanes without tapping the stalk! Can't wait!


----------



## Skelly

I have been using NOA on my commute quite a lot over the last couple of weeks. For the most part, I have been very impressed. I took a couple of co-workers out yesterday to show it to them, and it was the first time I had experienced the car aborting a lane change, then trying again, and again...until I took over. This happened twice. We were on multi-lane highways and I feel like my car was seeing a car two lanes over during the lane change and freaking out.


----------



## iChris93

I finally got Nav on Autopilot on Tuesday night and had a chance to test it out on the way home last night. It could not take the interchange or the exit I needed. The interchange (23 S to 94 E), shown attached, requires me to change lanes. The red lines show possible traffic and the blue line shows the way I wanted to go. It asked me to confirm the lane change but did not do it. Similarly, the exit I needed to take requires a lane change that it did not complete in time. 
Does Tesla know about these types of interchanges/exits? Is there a way I should reach out to them?


----------



## Enginerd

iChris93 said:


> Does Tesla know about these types of interchanges/exits?


From my experience and other comments, it seems NOA is good at dedicated exit lanes that spur off the main path. However, it doesn't work reliably (or at all?) on exit lanes that one has to merge into.

Separate but related, I don't think they've yet programmed NOA to merge properly at the end of a freeway onramp. It seems to allow itself to run out of lane, then just kind of fumble into the slow lane... more by accident than on purpose. I was hoping for an update to address these 2 issues, but they went all track mode instead.


----------



## @gravityrydr

iChris93 said:


> I finally got Nav on Autopilot on Tuesday night and had a chance to test it out on the way home last night. It could not take the interchange or the exit I needed. The interchange (23 S to 94 E), shown attached, requires me to change lanes. The red lines show possible traffic and the blue line shows the way I wanted to go. It asked me to confirm the lane change but did not do it. Similarly, the exit I needed to take requires a lane change that it did not complete in time.
> Does Tesla know about these types of interchanges/exits? Is there a way I should reach out to them?


Cloverleaf interchanges where there is weaving traffic, (Entering and exiting in the same lane) are particularly difficult to navigate they have the highest number of fixed object and runoff accidents of any type. There is a particular Cloverleaf interchange on one of my regular routes where NOA just plain refuses to even try and counts down that it will turn off as it approaches the exit. There are some very high volume interchanges in Chicago with poorly designed ramps that I do not see NOA being able to navigate inside of a decade from now.


----------



## iChris93

@gravityrydr said:


> There are some very high volume interchanges in Chicago with poorly designed ramps that do not see NOA being able to navigate inside of a decade from now.


I certainly hope Tesla can develop a solution before then. Otherwise, infrastructure changes are needed.


----------



## slasher016

I had a very cool navigate on autopilot experience tonight. It took the sharp cloverleaf like above (no merges or anything) but then the car came to a complete stop at the stop sign once I got there completely on it's own. Never seen it do that before.


----------



## njkode

Skelly said:


> I have been using NOA on my commute quite a lot over the last couple of weeks. For the most part, I have been very impressed. I took a couple of co-workers out yesterday to show it to them, and it was the first time I had experienced the car aborting a lane change, then trying again, and again...until I took over. This happened twice. We were on multi-lane highways and I feel like my car was seeing a car two lanes over during the lane change and freaking out.


I've had this happen too, well not with coworkers in the car.

I've found that NOA can be a pain in the backside in LA traffic. Several times I've taken over because the car acts scared and aborts lane changes. Each time I told the car to grow a pair. lol

Also is there a way to tell cancel the change lane indication, not sure why some time the car thinks it is better to change lanes. When I know ahead there is an interchange that will slow me down if I get over to where the car wants to be?


----------



## @gravityrydr

njkode said:


> Also is there a way to tell cancel the change lane indication,


Just ignore it, eventually it will give up.


----------



## Jay79

For me it feels like it needs to think to much sometimes, I've flew past multiple exits because it didn't commit to the off ramp exit or the highway split. Then I swear one time it automatically turned on my turn signal and took an off ramp on its own! its never done this before, it always just prompts me on the screen to make a lane change with no turn signal coming on unless I use the stalk and then it will make the lane change after a few seconds of thinking. That one time it was like the full NoA I've seen on the beta testers a few months ago.


----------



## iChris93

Jay79 said:


> For me it feels like it needs to think to much sometimes, I've flew past multiple exits because it didn't commit to the off ramp exit or the highway split. Then I swear one time it automatically turned on my turn signal and took an off ramp on its own! its never done this before, it always just prompts me on the screen to make a lane change with no turn signal coming on unless I use the stalk and then it will make the lane change after a few seconds of thinking. That one time it was like the full NoA I've seen on the beta testers a few months ago.


It will take exits automatically and use the signal for it.


----------



## SoFlaModel3

Now the third time with this bug...


----------



## NR4P

Decided to use NOA today. Had to take over to avoid a crash. First time.

Was in center lane on the highway, and car in front of me was going slower than my desired speed. NOA suggested I move over to the right. I turned on the signal and my car started moving to the right. After the two right tires just barely crossed the dashed lines, a car came flying down the right lane. Must have been doing 90mph+. I had to abort the lane change. It might have been really ugly had I not turned the wheel back to the center lane.


----------



## Long Ranger

I've had two experiences, both in the same spot, where NOA appeared to try to veer into the left barrier at a freeway interchange. 520E to 405N in Bellevue, WA. The car signaled right and took the exit OK, then it started to take the wide sweeping overpass that curves to the left over 405. It hugged the left side uncomfortably close to the barrier, and then it seemed to veer suddenly to the left towards the barrier. I took control, but it was unsettling. I'm convinced this wasn't just the jerk that you feel when you take control, especially because I was monitoring closely the second time it happened. I filed bug reports both times.


----------



## RichEV

Long Ranger said:


> I've had two experiences, both in the same spot, where NOA appeared to try to veer into the left barrier at a freeway interchange. 520E to 405N in Bellevue, WA. The car signaled right and took the exit OK, then it started to take the wide sweeping overpass that curves to the left over 405. It hugged the left side uncomfortably close to the barrier, and then it seemed to veer suddenly to the left towards the barrier. I took control, but it was unsettling. I'm convinced this wasn't just the jerk that you feel when you take control, especially because I was monitoring closely the second time it happened. I filed bug reports both times.


Maybe next time wait a couple of minutes after the event and save 10 min of dashcam video? It would be interesting to see this behavior.


----------



## Bart

SoFlaModel3 said:


> Now the third time with this bug...
> 
> View attachment 17886


Just had that today when driving in NOA. Good weather, clean car and dry roads, no apparent reason, started mid way through drive on I-90. Message remained for the rest of the 30 minute+ drive. Actually stopped using EAP shortly after, as it seemed to wander around in the lane far more than normal. Hoping it fixes itself after sleeping tonight...


----------



## Flashgj

Yesterday I drove from Salt Lake to Denver (about 512 miles) using NOA almost the entire time. For the most part it worked great. 

I-80 through Wyoming is mostly two Lane each way. At nearly every exit, if I was in the right lane, I would get the gray line and Confirm Lane Change notification even though the right lane was not a dedicated exit lane. If I ignored the notification, around 80-90% of the time the car would slow down considerably until past the exit and then speed back up. The other 10-20% it would go right on by like it should. If I confirmed the Lane change, it would turn into the left, inside lane, which I did not always want to do. 

Pretty annoying since it was very jerky. I began to anticipate it and would compensate by touching the accelerator to avoid the sudden slowing and sudden accelerating.


----------



## SoFlaModel3

SoFlaModel3 said:


> Now the third time with this bug...
> 
> View attachment 17886


After not driving yesterday, I am happy to report that my car has fixed itself as of this morning.


----------



## dogfood

OK, so I've been driving with NOA for a few weeks and the experience ranges from "that's pretty neat" to "OMG, my dog is driving-drunk!"
I've had trouble with a particular section of freeway since I started using Autopilot and with NOA it's gotten worse. In the Seattle area, I-405 south crosses I-5 and changes names. This may be the main problem, but it's still doing some funky stuff (like Rick James level funk). First off, the 405 has 4 normal lanes with an HOV lane on the left for 5 total lanes. The two right lanes go to I-5 North and the two left lanes go across the I-5 (toward the airport, but with a right exit to I-5 south). A couple miles prior to the exit, the NOA wants to be in one of the two _right _lanes (exit only to I-5 north). You have to deselect prior and reselect just beyond the exit or it brakes hard. Then, just before getting to the middle of the I-5 complex (large red dot), the car brakes hard again, even though there's nothing physical invoking this. Accelerating through this, it's OK for another couple hundred yards before it thinks the speed is reduced to 40 mph (it's 55 mph) and it slows again (the small red dot). Once you've passed this digital Sargasso Sea, things pick up again for a while. A couple miles down the road, it wants to change lanes into the right one that is going away in about a quarter of a mile (about 1 mile prior to the exit).
As you can see, this is all one physical road and all it has to do is keep truckin'.
I've found that 20% of the exits and exchanges are nice, 60% are questionable, and 20% are soup sandwiches.


----------



## Chorning

My model 3 updated to 42.4 a few weeks ago and I have not had NoA yet at all. No mention in the release notes, no options in the setup menu, and obviously no choice to turn it on while navigating.

Last Friday I got the update the 44.2 and still no NoA. I am in the US, and purchased both EAP and FSD, so there should be no reason I don't have it.

I've submitted bug reports, but nothing yet. Any ideas?


----------



## arknoll

@Flashgj I had the exact same experience with NOA. I found it super annoying on a long 800 mile drive that I stopped using NOA and just used Autopilot. With NOA turned off, I did not have the same issue.


----------



## Flashgj

@arknoll, yes very annoying. It did the same coming back after the holidays, but on I-70 it was less often. I am starting to wonder if it may be a problem with the maps rather than with NOA. There were a lot of exits that I was sure it was going to happen and then was surprised when it didn't.


----------



## garsh

Flashgj said:


> At nearly every exit, if I was in the right lane, I would get the gray line and Confirm Lane Change notification even though the right lane was not a dedicated exit lane.


I don't quite understand this statement. Can you explain? Are you saying a new lane appears to your right? Or did you mean that it *is* a dedicated exit lane?

I've noticed that about half the time when I'm passing an exit on the right, NOA will inexplicably tell me to move into the *left* lane to follow the route, even though there is absolutely no need to switch lanes. It's quite annoying. But it sounds like you might be describing something different.



> If I ignored the notification, around 80-90% of the time the car would slow down considerably until past the exit and then speed back up.


Did each of these exits happen to have an overpass above your road? The car often gets confused when approaching an overpass, and will slow down as if to avoid hitting it.


----------



## Flashgj

@garsh, no what you describe sounds like the same thing I am experiencing.

No new lane, just the exit. No overpass to confuse NOA when it decides to slow down. Some of them were just exits for rest stops.

It is somewhat annoying to always get the "Confirm Lane change to continue on route" but very annoying to me and especially my passengers when there is the sudden deceleration followed shortly by an acceleration. In heavy traffic it could also be a little dangerous and confusing to cars directly behind you.

Because the behavior is inconsistent, I am wondering if it could be map related?


----------



## Flashgj

I also had a stretch of road that had an HOV Lane. Instead of a solid white line in the areas of no lane changing allowed, it had double white lines fairly far apart. When it transitioned from the dashed line areas (allowing exiting and entering HOV Lane) to the double solid lines, NOA got confused every single time and would slow down like it did not know what to do. 

I had to get ready and touch the accelerator to maintain speed so as not to frustrate the vehicles behind me.


----------



## BlueMeanie

700 mile drive from Cincinnati to Gulf Shores, AL last week (mostly I-65). Used NOA throughout the trip up and back without any significant problems.
Mine too suggests getting into the left lane near exits, but does not really care or slow down if I don't follow it's recommendations.
Much less fatigue while driving these long distances than I normally experience. I also feel the car is more 'laid back' than me, so that keeps me chill too.


----------



## garsh

Flashgj said:


> @garsh, no what you describe sounds like the same thing I am experiencing.


ok. Thanks for clarifying.



> No overpass to confuse NOA when it decides to slow down.


I have another possible explanation. Can you remember if these slow downs occurred when you were next to the following on-ramp? I've noticed that NOA is very quick to slow down to make room for cars merging onto the highway. And it's pretty bad. Even in situations were I can clearly see that I'm going fast enough to be in front of the merging car before the merge point, the car will decide to slow way down to make room for them in front.


----------



## Flashgj

garsh said:


> I have another possible explanation. Can you remember if these slow downs occurred when you were next to the following on-ramp? I've noticed that NOA is very quick to slow down to make room for cars merging onto the highway. And it's pretty bad. Even in situations were I can clearly see that I'm going fast enough to be in front of the merging car before the merge point, the car will decide to slow way down to make room for them in front.


No, I was never next to the following on-ramp. Plus, in almost everyone of the situations when slow-down occurred, traffic was very, very light without cars anywhere near me.


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## Flashgj

@BlueMeanie, that is interesting that you had the same behavior with the Lane change nag but without the sudden slow down that I was consistently experiencing. Makes me wonder why? I could live with the constant nag at the exits because it is easy to ignore, but the sudden slow down followed by a sudden acceleration is something that cannot be easily ignored.


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## Enginerd

After I set a destination and select "Navigate on Autopilot", the car and I set out for the destination, mainly on AP when able. Somewhere along the line, the car posts a "Begin Trip" (or "Start Trip"?). I usually don't notice this until I'm on the freeway, well into the drive. Before activating this, am I missing out on any NOA features? It seems to be an unnecessary step, no?


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## SR22pilot

Here are the issues I have had with NOA:

1) As many have mentioned, NOA doesn't understand "slower traffic keep right." It will work it's way into the left lane and stay there.
2) NOA doesn't understand that it can't move over 3 lanes to the right to take an exit at the last minute. In traffic that is even close to heavy I am moving into the right lane 2 miles before my exit to make sure I don't miss it. NOA willl be telling me to move left to go faster the entire time. 
3) Bad weather messes NOA up even when AP is fine. On a rainy night NOA missed two exits The line showed it wanted to take the correct exit but it didn't execute . On clear days NOA has taken both exits fine.
4) NOA has had trouble with a compound exit where you take an exit lane and the exit lane splits to go in two different directions. NOA took the first exit but just went straight rather than bending right to take the right side of the split.


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## GadgetMan

Exiting highways using NOA has not been a good experience for me.
I've searched to find anyone with a similar issue, but I haven't found anyone posting an experience like this.
I'll preface this by saying I've been using autopilot for probably 80-90% of my highway driving since September, so I am aware of all the nuances of using it. My car works very well on EAP and NOA - with the exception of taking exit ramps.
While using NOA, the car works as expected with lane change suggestions etc. Lane changes are very smooth - no problems doing lane changes using NOA or EAP, so I believe my cameras, calibration etc are good.
When the car comes up on an exit (any exit - I"ve tried many) the car will Very aggressively swerve onto the exit ramp and it always overshoots - right tires on the shoulder line until it quickly corrects back into the center of the exit lane. This happens every time - I've never had the car take an exit ramp properly.
To compound the effect of terror - when coming up on an exit, many times you end up behind a car that's driving slower in the right lane than my TACC set speed, so obviously my car slows to maintain the set following distance. When the exit ramp comes up - the car immediately and aggressively speeds up to my set speed while aggressively taking the exit (almost a swerve) and overshooting the lane. So for me - NOA and exits are usable. I shut off AP when coming up on an exit.
I've had at least one and perhaps two software updates since NOA was released and it has not gotten any better.

Does any else have this issue? Curious before I contact Tesla regarding this.


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## kort677

the system is a beta, it is far from perfect. my only answer is to deal with it. assuming control for taking exit ramps will mitigate the problems you've encountered.


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## Sealander

I switch it off before an upcoming exit. I already know that I am going to exit anyway. Problem solved.


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## GadgetMan

Yes - I stated that I turn it off - of course that solves the 'problem.'
I'm asking because of what I've read and what's been reported, people seem to really like the way it works -
Wondering if anyone else out there has this exit ramp experience with it. If so, I'll just wait until it is fixed. If not, I can contact Tesla since it is something with my particular car that should be addressed.


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## AndrisV

GadgetMan said:


> Exiting highways using NOA has not been a good experience for me.
> I've searched to find anyone with a similar issue, but I haven't found anyone posting an experience like this.
> I'll preface this by saying I've been using autopilot for probably 80-90% of my highway driving since September, so I am aware of all the nuances of using it. My car works very well on EAP and NOA - with the exception of taking exit ramps.
> While using NOA, the car works as expected with lane change suggestions etc. Lane changes are very smooth - no problems doing lane changes using NOA or EAP, so I believe my cameras, calibration etc are good.
> When the car comes up on an exit (any exit - I"ve tried many) the car will Very aggressively swerve onto the exit ramp and it always overshoots - right tires on the shoulder line until it quickly corrects back into the center of the exit lane. This happens every time - I've never had the car take an exit ramp properly.
> To compound the effect of terror - when coming up on an exit, many times you end up behind a car that's driving slower in the right lane than my TACC set speed, so obviously my car slows to maintain the set following distance. When the exit ramp comes up - the car immediately and aggressively speeds up to my set speed while aggressively taking the exit (almost a swerve) and overshooting the lane. So for me - NOA and exits are usable. I shut off AP when coming up on an exit.
> I've had at least one and perhaps two software updates since NOA was released and it has not gotten any better.
> 
> Does any else have this issue? Curious before I contact Tesla regarding this.


I have quite a bit of experience so far with NOA. I use it as much as possible, and as long as I can tolerate my wife's outbursts from the passenger seat when I unexpectedly decide to take it out of EAP/NOA on exits when I do have a problem ... and thus causing a steering jerk that wakes her up from her slumber 

It seems that NOA does have a tendency to do what you say, though it's been better in this last update (I have 46.2). I've found it depends on the lane markings and on the curvature of the exit. There is so much variance in these that almost anything can happen. It does seem to slow down for me though, most of the time. In fact the biggest problem is that it's too cautious, especially on tighter curves where the camera's in effect can't see very far ahead because of the curve. Also, it limits the speed to the posted speed (5 mph above that), which I've found is WAY slower than I or anyone else usually takes them. Makes me scared of being rear-ended if the deceleration is too rapid at the exit. Another criticism on exits is that NOA activates the turn signal just a few yards before the actual ramp, instead of say a tenth of a mile before. Why not sooner?

But in general, things are getting way better and pretty fast. Gotta love the fact that this is these are the only EVs out there (or any cars for that matter) that can be so easily updated after purchase. Absolutely great!


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## Bokonon

GadgetMan said:


> My car works very well on EAP and NOA - with the exception of taking exit ramps.
> When the car comes up on an exit (any exit - I"ve tried many) the car will Very aggressively swerve onto the exit ramp and it always overshoots - right tires on the shoulder line until it quickly corrects back into the center of the exit lane. This happens every time - I've never had the car take an exit ramp properly.


How many different exits have you tried? Are they similar in geometry and curvature?

I generally have the same experience as you do on the older exits/interchanges around the Boston area. The main issues I experience are:

1. The geometry of exits around here is, shall we say, a bit antiquated... designed for the speed of a herd of cows or sheep and not motor vehicles. Short, 90-degree turns with a recommended speed of 25 mph, and even hairpin turns with no reduced speed recommendation are an unfortunate reality of interchanges, and they present issues for NOA at speed, since it doesn't slow down for them in advance. (If you're stuck in traffic and are inching along at 5mph, though, it has no issue at all.) My guess is that NOA was primarily validated against the larger, sweeping exits and interchanges that you find out west, because it handles those just fine in my experience.

2. Similar to your experience, I find that the car tends to aggressively follow the shoulder line when it reaches an exit, which can result in uncomfortable "swerving" that no human driver would ever perform. Humans visually interpolate and follow a the lane center implied by the shoulder line *and* the oncoming opposite lane line, but I do not think the car currently considers the latter (at least not in 46.2), so it just hugs the shoulder. I fully expect this to be resolved in a future firmware update, just as the recent updates have dramatically improved Autosteer/TACC's "humanity."

There are also a couple of specific cases where NOA fails the same way every time:

a.) On one exit with no curvature at all (i.e. just a straight diagonal exit path to the right), the car seems to *expect* a curved exit, and as a result starts quickly ping-ponging between between the guide lines. This may an issue with the map data, and I file bug reports when it happens.

b.) On one specific, newer (year-old) collector-distributor road that forks into an (also new) exit and a re-entry to the highway, NOA inexplicably signals and guides toward the re-entry lane, even though it knows I need the exit. Again, this could also be a map data issue, given how new this road and exit are.

Bottom line: if you have any doubts over NOA's ability to take an exit/interchange, disable it in advance, or be ready to take over at the drop of a hat. I think on-ramp/off-ramp is still in its early stages, and will get better over the coming months... but for now, be especially vigilant in these situations.


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## AG Wallace

My car does exactly what yours does and I have a 35 MPH corner on my exit that the car wants to take at 65! I have found that if I simply start slowing down (as I am transitioning off of the freeway) using the roller button on the steering wheel then it works well. I agree this is still beta and I figure if I keep doing this enough eventually my data from my car will make its way into Tesla and hopefully some improvements will come out in a future update. Hang in there, that is one thing we can count on, our cars keep getting better and better as software improvements are pushed.


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## JWardell

Bokonon said:


> The geometry of exits around here is, shall we say, a bit antiquated... designed for the speed of a herd of cows or sheep and not motor vehicles.


To be fair, traffic on our ramps is usually moving at the speed of a herd of sheep...or slower.


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## GadgetMan

ok - so I'm not alone on the NOA exit ramp thing - I understand it will get better, just didn't hear much about issues with it in general so thought maybe my car had some issue.
The exits I've 'tried' it on are mostly all very well marked, and quite long and straight before actually having to curve so it just seems strange for the car to do normal lane changes so well, but exits so badly. Thanks all.


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## slasher016

I love NOA, but my biggest gripe/issue is when "new" lanes appear. It gets super confused and can't decide which lane to go in (it usually chooses the right lane), sometimes though, that is an exit lane and the car goes over there anyways and I have to steer it back to keep the car from exiting.


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## Enginerd

Enginerd said:


> Somewhere along the line, the car posts a "Begin Trip" (or "Start Trip"?).


So, answering my own question, it appears that when you set a destination involving at least one supercharger stop, you get the "Begin Trip" selection box. Otherwise, I guess you just start driving without "making it official".


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## iChris93

garsh said:


> 1. Signalling. I don't think the car should be signalling a lane-split decision. This is a middle lane. Signalling indicates that you plan on changing lanes. It's confusing to other drivers, and isn't really helpful. The people behind you have to wait for you whether you signal or not.


I am on 2018.50 and I think I noticed it did not signal in a lane-split where it had before.


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## jdcollins5

When I was using NoA yesterday and exiting one highway and then merging with another highway, everything worked fine until I needed to merge with the new highway traffic. As the merge lane began to narrow there seemed to be no attempt from NoA to move to the left lane. I took over and completed the merge.

Does anyone know if the NoA would have made the left hand move if I had kept going until the end of the merge lane?


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## NOGA$4ME

In my experience it does not, but like you, I may have chickened out. I do find that I have to use my turn signal to manually initiate the lane change, and even then, if you don't get it in time and the merge lane starts to end the car seems to chicken out and pull back into the ending merge lane. This is definitely something they need to improve.


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## Smokey S

It will merge to the left at the end of the on-ramp, but you must pay attention to traffic to ensure it can be made safely. If the on-ramp continues and becomes an off-ramp, then you must initiate a left lane merge.


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## jdcollins5

Smokey S said:


> It will merge to the left at the end of the on-ramp, but you must pay attention to traffic to ensure it can be made safely. If the on-ramp continues and becomes an off-ramp, then you must initiate a left lane merge.


Thanks. How close does it get to the end of the on-ramp before it moves over?

I had a clear lane to move in to and the on ramp ended and did not become an off-ramp.


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## Smokey S

All the way to the end has been my experience several times I’ve done it


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## jdcollins5

Smokey S said:


> All the way to the end has been my experience several times I've done it


Thanks again. I will have to try this again.


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## garsh

jdcollins5 said:


> When I was using NoA yesterday and exiting one highway and then merging with another highway, everything worked fine until I needed to merge with the new highway traffic. As the merge lane began to narrow there seemed to be no attempt from NoA to move to the left lane. I took over and completed the merge.
> 
> Does anyone know if the NoA would have made the left hand move if I had kept going until the end of the merge lane?


I don't believe NoA understand on-ramps. It will _kind of_ work because autopilot will try to keep you between the lane markers, so it will usually see your lane disappearing and at some point "snap over" to the lane to the left.


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## Kizzy

There are two kinds of on-ramps that I'm familiar with:


On-ramps that merge into traffic
On-ramps that also serve as off-ramps
Autopilot will merge onto highways that have merging lanes without signaling as the lane runs out.

On the on-ramp/off-ramp style, if Navigate on Autopilot is active it will ask to signal to make the lane change, but if the merge opportunity is too short (and you're late on confirming or attempt to confirm too early so that AP doesn't recognize the confirmation), it will abort.

If NoA isn't active (or it hasn't yet requested confirmation to change lanes), if you manually signal as soon as a merge is possible, AP can make the lane change, but will abort if it doesn't happen quickly enough before the merge opportunity ends.

Autopilot doesn't seem to be that great at short merges and strategically matching traffic speeds of cars dozens of feet laterally or behind.


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## masto

Where I live, there's usually enough traffic and cars in the right-hand lane that it requires a bit of human finesse to squeeze into a space. This is one of the reasons I don't believe full self-driving is going to be a reality in any car without LIDAR.


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## jdcollins5

garsh said:


> I don't believe NoA understand on-ramps. It will _kind of_ work because autopilot will try to keep you between the lane markers, so it will usually see your lane disappearing and at some point "snap over" to the lane to the left.





Kizzy said:


> There are two kinds of on-ramps that I'm familiar with:
> 
> 
> On-ramps that merge into traffic
> On-ramps that also serve as off-ramps
> Autopilot will merge onto highways that have merging lanes without signaling as the lane runs out.
> 
> On the on-ramp/off-ramp style, if Navigate on Autopilot is active it will ask to signal to make the lane change, but if the merge opportunity is too short (and you're late on confirming or attempt to confirm too early so that AP doesn't recognize the confirmation), it will abort.
> 
> If NoA isn't active (or it hasn't yet requested confirmation to change lanes), if you manually signal as soon as a merge is possible, AP can make the lane change, but will abort if it doesn't happen quickly enough before the merge opportunity ends.
> 
> Autopilot doesn't seem to be that great at short merges and strategically matching traffic speeds of cars dozens of feet laterally or behind.


I tried NoA merging on an on-ramp, that merges with traffic, again today on an interstate close to my house. It did run to the very end of the merge lane before moving in to the right hand lane. I would not go as far as saying a "snap" but it did move over quickly, but smoothly, having just about run out of the merge lane.

So now I am comfortable that it will eventually merge in to the new lane, knowing the merge lane is open.

For information, I think it is a good idea to test the new EAP and NoA features in familiar surroundings before a long trip in unfamiliar territory.😀


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## MelindaV

masto said:


> This is one of the reasons I don't believe full self-driving is going to be a reality in any car without LIDAR.


I don't think the lack of LIDAR is the issue here. Cameras/radar/sonar can 'see' the surrounding area and traffic as well as a person (very likely much better), but the software/programming needs to act more like a person and take the available space in the adjacent lane, or speed up/slow down to align with an available space forward or behind and not just wait until it gets to the end of the on-ramp.


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## Kizzy

MelindaV said:


> I don't think the lack of LIDAR is the issue here. Cameras/radar/sonar can 'see' the surrounding area and traffic as well as a person (very likely much better), but the software/programming needs to act more like a person and take the available space in the adjacent lane, or speed up/slow down to align with an available space forward or behind and not just wait until it gets to the end of the on-ramp.


I've been noticing that Autopilot seems to track cars on off ramps and will continue to leave space for them (including suddenly breaking)-even when crossing back into the lane is physically impossible or highly unlikely due to intervening terrain. It's fascinating.


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## GDN

The first several times I used NOA to navigate an interchange it tried taking them too fast and I disengaged it. I got better and started dialing the speed back with the right wheel to see if the car wouldn't still navigate it better.

The last 2 weeks I've noticed the car seemed to be doing much better and maintaining a slower and safer speed and I didn't have to dial it back.

I just found this in the manual - and I'll likely get it wrong, but I assume this is some of their "Neural nets" learning from the cars and then making the fleet smarter and better. I don't know the perfect way to do this. I dont know if it can learn after you disengage NOA or only if you leave NOA engaged and then dial it back to what you feel is a safe speed, but this is one of the learning/sharing/making the fleet smarter and better opportunities.

Page 70.
_When enabled while on a highway interchange or off-ramp, Traffic-Aware Cruise Control may reduce your set speed in 5 mph (5 km/h) increments - to as slow as 25 mph (40 km/h) - *to better match the reported speeds of other Tesla vehicles that have driven at that specific location*. To override this and continue cruising at your set speed, tap the accelerator pedal or touch the plus (+) or minus (-) button on the touchscreen. The new set speed is maintained for the duration of the interchange or off-ramp (unless you override it or cancel Traffic-Aware Cruise Control). After the interchange or off-ramp, the set speed may revert or change as necessary based on the new location. For example, if you merged onto a different highway, the set speed reverts back to the set speed that was in use before driving on the interchange. _


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## Kizzy

GDN said:


> The first several times I used NOA to navigate an interchange it tried taking them too fast and I disengaged it. I got better and started dialing the speed back with the right wheel to see if the car wouldn't still navigate it better.
> 
> The last 2 weeks I've noticed the car seemed to be doing much better and maintaining a slower and safer speed and I didn't have to dial it back.
> 
> I just found this in the manual - and I'll likely get it wrong, but I assume this is some of their "Neural nets" learning from the cars and then making the fleet smarter and better. I don't know the perfect way to do this. I dont know if it can learn after you disengage NOA or only if you leave NOA engaged and then dial it back to what you feel is a safe speed, but this is one of the learning/sharing/making the fleet smarter and better opportunities.
> 
> Page 70.
> _When enabled while on a highway interchange or off-ramp, Traffic-Aware Cruise Control may reduce your set speed in 5 mph (5 km/h) increments - to as slow as 25 mph (40 km/h) - *to better match the reported speeds of other Tesla vehicles that have driven at that specific location*. To override this and continue cruising at your set speed, tap the accelerator pedal or touch the plus (+) or minus (-) button on the touchscreen. The new set speed is maintained for the duration of the interchange or off-ramp (unless you override it or cancel Traffic-Aware Cruise Control). After the interchange or off-ramp, the set speed may revert or change as necessary based on the new location. For example, if you merged onto a different highway, the set speed reverts back to the set speed that was in use before driving on the interchange. _


Gah! This sounds new. We can't be expected to reread the manual every software revision! 

That's good to know. Thanks for sharing.


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## Smokey S

Recently, when driving with NoA and it ask to confirm a lane which I do. It, sometimes, immediately cancels the lane change. There is no car in the lane next to me or coming up fast in the lane. It has occurred several times in the last week or so. I’m on 50.6 version.


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## GDN

I've also had aborted lane changes and others have reported the same. I think I'd only had aborted lane change prior to this release. I've had a couple since then. Hoping this improves with the next release.


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## Enginerd

I'm concerned about the coming software release that will allow bypassing the stalk confirmation for lane changes. I trust this will be a setting that we can select. But watching the suggested lane changes over the last several hundred miles, I have a handful of concerns:

With 2 lanes travelling in a given direction (e.g. I-95), NOA wants to move me out of the slow lane at most state highway intersections, presumably to avoid conflict with merging traffic. This is almost never warranted, and would more often put me in the way of traffic in the fast lane.
After passing a semi, NOA wants to turn me out of the passing lane too early. If I allowed this on NOA's initial suggestions, truckers would be miffed.
I've seen suggestions to change lanes right into a semi. Still surprises me that the schematic actually illustrates this.
I've also seen suggestions to change into shoulder lanes that don't really exist.
Driver-requested lane changes delay long enough that the window of opportunity has frequently closed by the time AP finally commits.
On the plus side, I am particularly impressed when NOA allows someone to merge from an on-ramp. I smile, then applaud, (ever so briefly) with both hands.

Hopefully the mother ship has been learning as we accept or ignore NOA's suggestions, and will apply that wisdom in future software. How do you feel about "bypass confirmation" with current or future software?


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## iChris93

Enginerd said:


> With 2 lanes travelling in a given direction (e.g. I-95), NOA wants to move me out of the slow lane at most state highway intersections, presumably to avoid conflict with merging traffic. This is almost never warranted, and would more often put me in the way of traffic in the fast lane.


This is definitely an issue I have noticed.

The others you suggest, I have not seemed to notice.


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## FRC

Enginerd said:


> Hopefully the mother ship has been learning as we accept or ignore NOA's suggestions, and will apply that wisdom in future software. How do you feel about "bypass confirmation" with current or future software?


I don't think that NOA should EVER institute a lane change without the driver's specific approval. That's a FSD function, not NOA.


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## iChris93

FRC said:


> I don't think that NOA should EVER institute a lane change without the driver's specific approval. That's a FSD function, not NOA.


Do you think taking exits and interchanges without confirmation is also FSD?


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## FRC

That's a valid point. I suppose for me the differentiation is that with exits and interchanges I've already given the car information that tells it I want to take those exits and interchanges(by inputting my destination). I think my point is that those types of moves(exits and interchanges) shouldn't catch me by surprise or alarm me causing an adverse reaction. Unsolicited lane changes might.


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## Guy Weathersby

FRC said:


> I don't think that NOA should EVER institute a lane change without the driver's specific approval. That's a FSD function, not NOA.


My understanding is that this will be an option. If you don't like it, don't activate it.


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## RichEV

FRC said:


> I don't think that NOA should EVER institute a lane change without the driver's specific approval. That's a FSD function, not NOA.


I agree that auto-lane change is sticking a toe over the FSD boundary.


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## Jay79

Tesla has stated that they will be improving the NOA feature with future updates, I'm not too worried about it. It's suggestions don't need to be perfect yet since we still control what it does. I firmly believe once NOA has control over lane changes they will have drastically improved its decision making based on all the data Tesla has crunch thus far since they launched this autopilot suite function.


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## slasher016

Jay79 said:


> Tesla has stated that they will be improving the NOA feature with future updates, I'm not too worried about it. It's suggestions don't need to be perfect yet since we still control what it does. I firmly believe once NOA has control over lane changes they will have drastically improved its decision making based on all the data Tesla has crunch thus far since they launched this autopilot suite function.


I agree. The first thing the machine is learning right now, is how often does the user actually accept the lane suggestion. I'm sure they have the different lane suggestions broken down into scenarios (getting out of a slow lane, moving out of passing lane, moving over to get out of slow lane, heading towards exit lane, etc.) They'll use that data to build a better predictive model. I'm sure they're snapshotting camera views each time someone chooses not to follow the lane guidance advice and will use that to determine why the driver chose to ignore it.

For background, I lead a software engineering team that is currently working on an ML/AI project.


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## FRC

I'm not sure I understand. For a variety of reasons, I purchased EAP but not FSD. Is Tesla suggesting that a function will be implemented under EAP whereby my vehicle will make lane changes that I neither initiated nor accepted? Would this behavior be acceptable to anyone who does not desire FSD? I'm not saying that I'll never accept FSD, quite the contrary. What I'm saying, as @RichEV states above is that this behavior is equivalent to forcing aspects of FSD upon those who haven't asked for it and perhaps don't want it. Seems like a litigation nightmare just waitin' to happen.


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## RichEV

FRC said:


> I'm not sure I understand. For a variety of reasons, I purchased EAP but not FSD. Is Tesla suggesting that a function will be implemented under EAP whereby my vehicle will make lane changes that I neither initiated nor accepted? Would this behavior be acceptable to anyone who does not desire FSD? I'm not saying that I'll never accept FSD, quite the contrary. What I'm saying, as @RichEV states above is that this behavior is equivalent to forcing aspects of FSD upon those who haven't asked for it and perhaps don't want it. Seems like a litigation nightmare just waitin' to happen.


To be clear, with an opt-in option in the UI the auto-lane change isn't forced, just "offered".

As far as the EAP/FSD boundary is concerned I can see that "freeway driving with full auto-NOA" can be considered EAP. Stoplights, stop signs, turns on surface streets are all FSD. The boundary is that I would see auto-lane change on arterials as an early FSD option.


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## Bokonon

Today I stumbled across an edge-case that resulted in my car offering to enable Navigate on Autopilot on any road, regardless of route or destination. 

The sequence of events was as follows:

1. Activated Navigate on Autopilot on a route covering I-95N and I-90W just west of Boston. It was snowing lightly, and the roads were slushy with snow/salt mix.

2. About 3 miles from my exit, with NoA still engaged, the front radar became blocked with freezing slush, and I received the jolting *TAKE OVER IMMEDIATELY *prompt as Autopilot prepared to disengage. (Boy, that alert does *not* mess around!)

3. With Autopilot and TACC unavailable for the remainder of the trip, I continued onward to my first destination and parked. I exited the car, cleared most of the slush off of my front bumper, and attended to an errand.

4. Five minutes later, I returned to the car got in. I entered my next destination into the nav. It routed me along a familiar stretch of 50-mph state highway with traffic signals... only this time, for the first time ever, Navigate on Autopilot appeared to be available. Curious, I enabled it.

5. After entering the state highway and waiting for an open, two-mile stretch with no signals and no other vehicles near me, I cautiously enabled Autosteer. As my exit approached, I gave it a chance to signal or change into the [brief] exit lane, but it did neither. I was not too surprised.

6. Upon arriving at my second destination and shifting into park, I tried entering another nearby destination along the same state highway, and again, the nav prompted me to enable NoA. I then entered an even closer destination, which required travel exclusively on local, 25mph roads. Yet again, the nav prompted me to enable NoA. No matter what destination I entered, NoA always seemed to be available.

7. After exiting the car for 2 minutes and returning, I entered my final destination into the nav. This time, NoA was not available, as expected. As a test, I entered the previous destination that I had tried just before exiting the car, and this time, NoA was not available... as expected. Conclusion: whatever odd state my car had been in for the previous drive that made NoA appear to be available everywhere was now cleared.

Below is a screenshot showing one of the destinations I mentioned in step 6. I'll send all of this to [email protected] tomorrow.


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## JDM

I noticed in the last few weeks that Mad Max no longer appears on my Autopilot buttons on the screen. I still have version 2018.5.0x. Has this happened to others?


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## garsh

Nope, haven't noticed.

Was the car in park when you tried to look for it? IIRC, it won't display that option while you're driving.

If you still can't find it, take a picture of the screen where you think it should appear. Then we can either confirm that it has disappeared for you, or tell you that you're looking in the wrong place.


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## GDN

Just double checked and Mad Max still selected ! 50.6.


----------



## JWardell

Bokonon said:


> Today I stumbled across an edge-case that resulted in my car offering to enable Navigate on Autopilot on any road, regardless of route or destination.
> 
> The sequence of events was as follows:
> 
> 1. Activated Navigate on Autopilot on a route covering I-95N and I-90W just west of Boston. It was snowing lightly, and the roads were slushy with snow/salt mix.
> 
> 2. About 3 miles from my exit, with NoA still engaged, the front radar became blocked with freezing slush, and I received the jolting *TAKE OVER IMMEDIATELY *prompt as Autopilot prepared to disengage. (Boy, that alert does *not* mess around!)
> 
> 3. With Autopilot and TACC unavailable for the remainder of the trip, I continued onward to my first destination and parked. I exited the car, cleared most of the slush off of my front bumper, and attended to an errand.
> 
> 4. Five minutes later, I returned to the car got in. I entered my next destination into the nav. It routed me along a familiar stretch of 50-mph state highway with traffic signals... only this time, for the first time ever, Navigate on Autopilot appeared to be available. Curious, I enabled it.
> 
> 5. After entering the state highway and waiting for an open, two-mile stretch with no signals and no other vehicles near me, I cautiously enabled Autosteer. As my exit approached, I gave it a chance to signal or change into the [brief] exit lane, but it did neither. I was not too surprised.
> 
> 6. Upon arriving at my second destination and shifting into park, I tried entering another nearby destination along the same state highway, and again, the nav prompted me to enable NoA. I then entered an even closer destination, which required travel exclusively on local, 25mph roads. Yet again, the nav prompted me to enable NoA. No matter what destination I entered, NoA always seemed to be available.
> 
> 7. After exiting the car for 2 minutes and returning, I entered my final destination into the nav. This time, NoA was not available, as expected. As a test, I entered the previous destination that I had tried just before exiting the car, and this time, NoA was not available... as expected. Conclusion: whatever odd state my car had been in for the previous drive that made NoA appear to be available everywhere was now cleared.
> 
> Below is a screenshot showing one of the destinations I mentioned in step 6. I'll send all of this to [email protected] tomorrow.
> 
> View attachment 22170


Interesting. I never knew NOA was _not_ an option, but then again I rarely use nav unless I'm on a trip somewhere.
I had extensive use of NOA this past weekend driving up to VT. I think it fits more into the summon cool-to-show-off category, but not worth all the incorrect lane changes at the moment. Of course I am probably more conscious of social lane responsibilities than the average driver and it also didn't help that I was forced to drive torturously slow to make some destinations (torturous for me is 70 instead of 80+). But that's another benefit of Autopilot, while I can't stand to drive that slow myself, it's not so bad when the car is doing the driving and I'm just pressing an occasional button.


----------



## Bokonon

JWardell said:


> Interesting. I never knew NOA was _not_ an option, but then again I rarely use nav unless I'm on a trip somewhere.


I travel mostly on state highways, so I rarely see the NoA option pop up... but when it does, I immediately know I've been diverted from my usual route.



JWardell said:


> I had extensive use of NOA this past weekend driving up to VT. I think it fits more into the summon cool-to-show-off category, but not worth all the incorrect lane changes at the moment.


Agreed. I haven't used it much outside the greater Boston area's tight cowpaths. Was the issue that it didn't put you in the proper lane at a freeway branch, or didn't take the right branch, or something else?



> Of course I am probably more conscious of social lane responsibilities than the average driver


True, it may be a hindrance for you... but with the average driver in mind, I love the fact that it will yell at you to get out of the passing lane if you don't need it! This feature should be mandatory in all cars.


----------



## JWardell

Bokonon said:


> I travel mostly on state highways, so I rarely see the NoA option pop up... but when it does, I immediately know I've been diverted from my usual route.
> 
> Agreed. I haven't used it much outside the greater Boston area's tight cowpaths. Was the issue that it didn't put you in the proper lane at a freeway branch, or didn't take the right branch, or something else?
> 
> True, it may be a hindrance for you... but with the average driver in mind, I love the fact that it will yell at you to get out of the passing lane if you don't need it! This feature should be mandatory in all cars.


See, I think it takes too long to get out of the fast lane. Except for the times when it doesn't look far enough ahead and changes to the right lane only to move back to the left lane seconds later.
It has yet to survive a single highway interchange for me, half the time disabling itself for unsupported interchange, the other half of time I intervene because it is too fast or taking it too wide. California car doesn't seem to want to take a slower, tighter course in icy Vermont conditions


----------



## Kizzy

JWardell said:


> Interesting. I never knew NOA was _not_ an option, but then again I rarely use nav unless I'm on a trip somewhere.
> I had extensive use of NOA this past weekend driving up to VT. I think it fits more into the summon cool-to-show-off category, but not worth all the incorrect lane changes at the moment. Of course I am probably more conscious of social lane responsibilities than the average driver and it also didn't help that I was forced to drive torturously slow to make some destinations (torturous for me is 70 instead of 80+). But that's another benefit of Autopilot, while I can't stand to drive that slow myself, it's not so bad when the car is doing the driving and I'm just pressing an occasional button.


I like to use NoA (with the nav on silent) to make sure I don't miss highway exits if I'm not super focused on navigating.  Yes, the lane changing outside of exists is a bit iffy at times.


----------



## francoisp

Yesterday while driving on Interstate 70 in Ohio on the segment between I-77 and and I-71, on two occasions "navigate on autopilot" disengaged and reengaged about 30 seconds later. Has anyone experienced this and has some hypothesis as what could have caused this?

[Update]: I should also mentioned that only the "Navigation" part disengaged and reengaged, Autopilot remained engaged the whole time.


----------



## iChris93

FrancoisP said:


> Yesterday while driving on Interstate 70 in Ohio on the segment between I-77 and and I-71, on two occasions "navigate on autopilot" disengaged and reengaged about 30 seconds later. Has anyone experienced this and has some hypothesis as what could have caused this?


Yes, is that were there is a road crossing on the interstate? I have experienced that before.


----------



## francoisp

iChris93 said:


> Yes, is that were there is a road crossing on the interstate? I have experienced that before.


No road crossings, only bridges on I-70, this is a major interstate.

I should also mentioned that only the "navigation" part disengaged and reengaged, Autopilot remained engaged the whole time.


----------



## garsh

FrancoisP said:


> Yesterday while driving on Interstate 70 in Ohio on the segment between I-77 and and I-71, on two occasions "navigate on autopilot" disengaged and reengaged about 30 seconds later. Has anyone experienced this and has some hypothesis as what could have caused this?
> 
> [Update]: I should also mentioned that only the "Navigation" part disengaged and reengaged, Autopilot remained engaged the whole time.


Yep, I've had that happen for various reasons.

If weather is bad (and therefore, cameras are a bit obscured), then it will drop out of NOA to EAP. And sometimes it will re-engaged NOA a little while later.

There also appear to just be some areas that Tesla has deemed it incapable of handling, and they disengage NOA based on map data. To me, it seems to be areas with lots of crossovers & other roads.


----------



## slasher016

FrancoisP said:


> Yesterday while driving on Interstate 70 in Ohio on the segment between I-77 and and I-71, on two occasions "navigate on autopilot" disengaged and reengaged about 30 seconds later. Has anyone experienced this and has some hypothesis as what could have caused this?
> 
> [Update]: I should also mentioned that only the "Navigation" part disengaged and reengaged, Autopilot remained engaged the whole time.


I've seen construction areas cause this as well.


----------



## MelindaV

Recently was discussing with others a particular freeway interchange that NoA doesn't know what to do with and saved the dashcam video of it from this morning. Here's 4 minutes sped up to about a minute (because if you watch 4 full minutes of my morning traffic, I would really worry about you).
I have 3 lane changes to the left I make within about a half mile (one I made before this clip starts), while others on the second freeway are merging over into the merge lanes to take the local exits.






So how far out do you think we are from NoA being able to find the car they can cut in front of in traffic like this?


----------



## RichEV

MelindaV said:


> Recently was discussing with others a particular freeway interchange that NoA doesn't know what to do with and saved the dashcam video of it from this morning. Here's 4 minutes sped up to about a minute (because if you watch 4 full minutes of my morning traffic, I would really worry about you).
> I have 3 lane changes to the left I make within about a half mile (one I made before this clip starts), while others on the second freeway are merging over into the merge lanes to take the local exits.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So how far out do you think we are from NoA being able to find the car they can cut in front of in traffic like this?


Wow, sorry to see you have to negotiate this mess. What, if anything, does NOA on Mad Max try to do in this section? Or doesn't NOA even "engage" during this part?


----------



## JWardell

MelindaV said:


> Recently was discussing with others a particular freeway interchange that NoA doesn't know what to do with and saved the dashcam video of it from this morning. Here's 4 minutes sped up to about a minute (because if you watch 4 full minutes of my morning traffic, I would really worry about you).
> I have 3 lane changes to the left I make within about a half mile (one I made before this clip starts), while others on the second freeway are merging over into the merge lanes to take the local exits.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So how far out do you think we are from NoA being able to find the car they can cut in front of in traffic like this?


Reminds me of Boston traffic 
It's going to be hard for a self-driving car to make eye contact with other drivers, which is that horrible thing that's required to guilt someone into letting you in.
But I have full faith Tesla WILL get there, while every other company will be making pansy self-driving cars that will just sit in wait. Unlike rain, Tesla DOES have this phenomenon in California and has the courage to make their system much more assertive than other companies. It's already apparent when comparing to other cars' TACC.


----------



## francoisp

JWardell said:


> But I have full faith Tesla WILL get there, while every other company will be making pansy self-driving cars that will just sit in wait.


I'm a believer of what Tesla is trying to accomplish however I wish I could be as optimistic as you are. There are so many edge cases that need to be dealt with until true self-driving can be trusted with our lives. A neural network is as good as the data it has been fed with; it's not that good with unknown unknowns.


----------



## Scubastevo80

NoA has been terrible for me lately, and perhaps autopilot in general. Follow distances in NJ (even at 1) are way too far and I constantly get tailgated and have other cars divebomb the lane between me and the car in front of me. The car slows down much more rapidly than it needs to in many situations as well.

My biggest gripe though is lane changes. If I want to change to the fast lane, it takes too long and a car in the left lane will often see the indicator, speed up and force my car to bounce back into the original lane like a scared child. For NoA, if it directs me to the slow lane, and there are merges onto the highway - get ready for whiplash. If I'm doing 65mph and a car merging from an onramp is doing 35mph, for example, the Tesla will slam on the brakes to match that cars speed, oftentimes letting him/her on ahead of me. This is dangerous and one of the primary reasons I don't use NoA anymore. 

FrancoisP - I like what Tesla is doing and do appreciate EAP in stop-and-go traffic, but I also think they're a long way off from FSD. If they can't solve for these scenarios on the highway and smooth out some of the car's reactions, I'm struggling to see how they'll navigate challenges of towns. What does the car do if there's a big stick on the road, or a huge pot hole, or a non-standard intersection? What happens when a stop signed is ripped down or a traffic light out?


----------



## iChris93

Scubastevo80 said:


> NoA has been terrible for me lately, and perhaps autopilot in general. Follow distances in NJ (even at 1) are way too far and I constantly get tailgated and have other cars divebomb the lane between me and the car in front of me. The car slows down much more rapidly than it needs to in many situations as well.
> 
> My biggest gripe though is lane changes. If I want to change to the fast lane, it takes too long and a car in the left lane will often see the indicator, speed up and force my car to bounce back into the original lane like a scared child. For NoA, if it directs me to the slow lane, and there are merges onto the highway - get ready for whiplash. If I'm doing 65mph and a car merging from an onramp is doing 35mph, for example, the Tesla will slam on the brakes to match that cars speed, oftentimes letting him/her on ahead of me. This is dangerous and one of the primary reasons I don't use NoA anymore.
> 
> FrancoisP - I like what Tesla is doing and do appreciate EAP in stop-and-go traffic, but I also think they're a long way off from FSD. If they can't solve for these scenarios on the highway and smooth out some of the car's reactions, I'm struggling to see how they'll navigate challenges of towns. What does the car do if there's a big stick on the road, or a huge pot hole, or a non-standard intersection? What happens when a stop signed is ripped down or a traffic light out?


What version are you on?


----------



## Scubastevo80

2019.5.15 - but it started with the prior 2018.50.6. NoA has never been particularly good during my work commute route, but from a relative standpoint, its certainly hasn't gotten any better.


----------



## garsh

RichEV said:


> What, if anything, does NOA on Mad Max try to do in this section?


"Mad Max" makes the setting sound much more aggressive than it really is.

All that setting does is suggest changing lanes as soon as the car notices that the car in front is travelling slower. (while the other settings will wait until you get closer and start slowing down before considering changing lanes) It will not switch lanes any more aggressively, and still requires a large clearing before it will switch lanes.


----------



## Travelwolf

i drive on i70 daily and lately (in between update, not after one) my NoAP has been just disappearing from the route window. As in not there. Sometimes it is there and greyed out until i push it and other times it's not there at all. For the exact same route. Any ideas? Tesla has tried to send a patch but it is still doing it. 

side note- They had me do all the rebooting steps and now my homelink wont program (it disappeared with the factory reset they had me do, even though profiles stayed so i'm not sure it "took"). I have had a notice on my screen that my car was factory reset randomly twice since then- odd since i only did it the once. This last time it finally took b/c everything disappeared including profiles, but i still cant program homelink and the NoAP disappeared again tonight on the way home.


----------



## francoisp

Travelwolf said:


> i drive on i70 daily and lately (in between update, not after one) my NoAP has been just disappearing from the route window. As in not there. Sometimes it is there and greyed out until i push it and other times it's not there at all. For the exact same route. Any ideas? (...)


I've reported a similar situation in this forum. In my case, I was able to engage NoAP when I got on I70, but after a while, and for no apparent reason, it disengaged on its own and re-engaged again 30 seconds later. It did this a few times before I got to my exit. While NoAP disengaged, EAP was still on and steering the car. Interestingly, on that same trip, prior to getting on I70 I drove more than 100 miles on I77 without NoAP giving any issue. Could there be something special with I70? Or maybe some mapping issue? I did not see anything on I70 that look different from I77.


----------



## MelindaV

FrancoisP said:


> I've reported a similar situation in this forum. In my case, I was able to engage NoAP when I got on I70, but after a while, and for no apparent reason, it disengaged on its own and re-engaged again 30 seconds later. It did this a few times before I got to my exit. While NoAP disengaged, EAP was still on and steering the car. Interestingly, on that same trip, prior to getting on I70 I drove more than 100 miles on I77 without NoAP giving any issue. Could there be something special with I70? Or maybe some mapping issue? I did not see anything on I70 that look different from I77.


issues like these seem to be map related - Autopilot is reading something in that area as not being a freeway and disengaging NoA. Could be an adjacent (or above/below) surface street or something else screwy at that spot. Make sure next time it happens to record a Bug Report to alert Tesla of the issue, if you've not already.


----------



## Nautilus

I recently upgraded to (new)AP/FSD, and during my commute home this evening on the interstate I was using Navigate on Autopilot. It was raining steadily, so I was also playing with the windshield wiper settings. Here's something I stumbled on, wonder if anyone else has experienced it?

I initially had my wipers on manual setting "3", since the auto setting doesn't move the wipers fast enough for me. As I entered the interstate and attempted to engage NoA, I got a message "Weather may limit use of NoA", or something like that. So I drove along with only TACC and Lane Keeping. Fine. After a while I decided to try the windshield wipers on "Auto". Several seconds later NoA engaged. Great. But I didn't like the visibility, so a minute or two later, I switched the wipers back to setting "3". A couple seconds later, NoA disengaged due to the weather. No change in the rain throughout this whole thing. "Interesting" I thought. Wipers back to Auto, NoA re-engaged. Wipers back to "3", NoA disengaged. I kept going back and forth with the windshield wiper control several times and kept getting the same result, so I'm pretty sure they were directly related to each other. The car seemed to not like NoA when the windshield was being kept clearer by the manual wiper setting.

I'm running on Firmware 2019.5.15, but it may not be unique to that firmware.


----------



## Jason F

Nautilus said:


> I recently upgraded to (new)AP/FSD, and during my commute home this evening on the interstate I was using Navigate on Autopilot. It was raining steadily, so I was also playing with the windshield wiper settings. Here's something I stumbled on, wonder if anyone else has experienced it?
> 
> I initially had my wipers on manual setting "3", since the auto setting doesn't move the wipers fast enough for me. As I entered the interstate and attempted to engage NoA, I got a message "Weather may limit use of NoA", or something like that. So I drove along with only TACC and Lane Keeping. Fine. After a while I decided to try the windshield wipers on "Auto". Several seconds later NoA engaged. Great. But I didn't like the visibility, so a minute or two later, I switched the wipers back to setting "3". A couple seconds later, NoA disengaged due to the weather. No change in the rain throughout this whole thing. "Interesting" I thought. Wipers back to Auto, NoA re-engaged. Wipers back to "3", NoA disengaged. I kept going back and forth with the windshield wiper control several times and kept getting the same result, so I'm pretty sure they were directly related to each other. The car seemed to not like NoA when the windshield was being kept clearer by the manual wiper setting.
> 
> I'm running on Firmware 2019.5.15, but it may not be unique to that firmware.


It sounds like the wiper moving more frequently across the front cameras was triggering it.


----------



## SoFlaModel3

Nautilus said:


> I recently upgraded to (new)AP/FSD, and during my commute home this evening on the interstate I was using Navigate on Autopilot. It was raining steadily, so I was also playing with the windshield wiper settings. Here's something I stumbled on, wonder if anyone else has experienced it?
> 
> I initially had my wipers on manual setting "3", since the auto setting doesn't move the wipers fast enough for me. As I entered the interstate and attempted to engage NoA, I got a message "Weather may limit use of NoA", or something like that. So I drove along with only TACC and Lane Keeping. Fine. After a while I decided to try the windshield wipers on "Auto". Several seconds later NoA engaged. Great. But I didn't like the visibility, so a minute or two later, I switched the wipers back to setting "3". A couple seconds later, NoA disengaged due to the weather. No change in the rain throughout this whole thing. "Interesting" I thought. Wipers back to Auto, NoA re-engaged. Wipers back to "3", NoA disengaged. I kept going back and forth with the windshield wiper control several times and kept getting the same result, so I'm pretty sure they were directly related to each other. The car seemed to not like NoA when the windshield was being kept clearer by the manual wiper setting.
> 
> I'm running on Firmware 2019.5.15, but it may not be unique to that firmware.


This was just coincidence. I only use the auto wipers and in bad weather NOA will disengage.


----------



## Travelwolf

mine is not an issue of it disengaging/re-engaging etc- the OPTION to turn it on at all is not even there, there is no button. i looked to make sure it was on in the settings and it was. it remained missing in my navigation though for the rest of the day. did this to me a few days randomly, on roads that it has worked on in the past for the same routes. it's just weird.


----------



## Nautilus

SoFlaModel3 said:


> This was just coincidence. I only use the auto wipers and in bad weather NOA will disengage.


That's what I thought at first. And I expect you're right under certain bad weather conditions. In this case, I think the rain was "just right", such that the NoA kept engaging/disengaging within 5 seconds of my toggling the wiper setting. I was able to repeat it through about 10 cycles over a 15 mile stretch of interstate. Once or twice - yeah, coincidence. This many times, and like clockwork, I'm thinking otherwise. I'll try to replicate the next time there is steady rain.

@Travelwolf (great username), the NoA button on the navigation screen remained "Blue" (on) throughout this "experiment", just like I can turn it "on" as I'm leaving my driveway, but NoA is not actually engaged until a couple miles later when I get on the interstate.


----------



## njkode

Does Nav on autopilot annoy anyone else? sorry if it has been talked about did not feel like reading 13 pages. lol 

For me, NOA gets way too annoying for the lane changes it is promoting. Even when I tell it to delay it comes back in 2 seconds. Many times it is telling me to change lanes into the carpool lane. Which I can not always do, then if I am in the carpool lane that has an exit it is still looking for me to get out of the carpool lane to use the standard exit. I think there is a lot of work that can be done with it. When I was on a road trip meaning far outside city limits it worked well but for in the cities it just seems to be lacking.


----------



## MelindaV

njkode said:


> Does Nav on autopilot annoy anyone else? sorry if it has been talked about did not feel like reading 13 pages. lol
> 
> For me, NOA gets way too annoying for the lane changes it is promoting. Even when I tell it to delay it comes back in 2 seconds. Many times it is telling me to change lanes into the carpool lane. Which I can not always do, then if I am in the carpool lane that has an exit it is still looking for me to get out of the carpool lane to use the standard exit. I think there is a lot of work that can be done with it. When I was on a road trip meaning far outside city limits it worked well but for in the cities it just seems to be lacking.


what do you have it set to?


----------



## njkode

MelindaV said:


> what do you have it set to?


I have it set to average,


----------



## Nautilus

> I recently upgraded to (new)AP/FSD, and during my commute home this evening on the interstate I was using Navigate on Autopilot. It was raining steadily, so I was also playing with the windshield wiper settings. Here's something I stumbled on, wonder if anyone else has experienced it?
> 
> I initially had my wipers on manual setting "3", since the auto setting doesn't move the wipers fast enough for me. As I entered the interstate and attempted to engage NoA, I got a message "Weather may limit use of NoA", or something like that. So I drove along with only TACC and Lane Keeping. Fine. After a while I decided to try the windshield wipers on "Auto". Several seconds later NoA engaged. Great. But I didn't like the visibility, so a minute or two later, I switched the wipers back to setting "3". A couple seconds later, NoA disengaged due to the weather. No change in the rain throughout this whole thing. "Interesting" I thought. Wipers back to Auto, NoA re-engaged. Wipers back to "3", NoA disengaged. I kept going back and forth with the windshield wiper control several times and kept getting the same result, so I'm pretty sure they were directly related to each other. The car seemed to not like NoA when the windshield was being kept clearer by the manual wiper setting.
> 
> I'm running on Firmware 2019.5.15, but it may not be unique to that firmware.





Nautilus said:


> I'll try to replicate the next time there is steady rain.


Steady rain on my commute into work this morning. Played with the NoA and Windshield wiper settings and got the same result as above. I'm still running on 2019.5.15.


----------



## Nizadar

I've had NOA speed based lane changes set to disabled for a long time. I can't remember what it was set to after the update? What is the default setting?

Disabled
Mild
Average
Mad Max

Thanks?


----------



## Frully

I believe the default was average...

I have mine set to mad max but should turn it down because it constantly wants me to pass 1/2 mile from my exit while I'm in the exit lane...easily not enough time to pass and get back over (legally).


----------



## viperd

Nizadar said:


> I've had NOA speed based lane changes set to disabled for a long time. I can't remember what it was set to after the update? What is the default setting?
> 
> Disabled
> Mild
> Average
> Mad Max
> 
> Thanks?


I believe mine was set to Average.


----------



## airj1012

"Today, we're beginning to roll out our latest version of Navigate on Autopilot for a more seamless active guidance experience. In this new version, drivers will now have the option to use Navigate on Autopilot without having to confirm lane changes via the turn stalk. "

I'm not sure they've officially released this version yet. The latest prominent version is 2019.8.4, which is believed to be bug fixes for 2019.8.3. Anyone know anything different?

https://www.tesla.com/blog/introducing-more-seamless-navigate-autopilot


----------



## NOGA$4ME

I would give it a little time to roll out. "Today" probably does mean today in a press release like this (and not "Elon time" for in the next few weeks), but it probably does mean that it will probably start rolling out starting tonight and you may not see the first indications on TeslaFi until tomorrow morning.


----------



## airj1012

I'm not a big fan of them advertising the releases and then actually releasing it. Personally I think it should be the other way around. They created so much buzz about Sentry Mode and Dog Mode on their blog, official Instragram and YouTube channels, and it took weeks for the first wide spread roll out. Wish they'd time it up a bit better.


----------



## Unplugged

My concern about Navigate on Autopilot is that the Tesla navigation routing is poor, to say the least. In the LA Metro area, including Orange County, I can't really trust the Tesla navigation to properly route me in the quickest time. Quite literally, Tesla chooses a route different than my Waze navigation whenever there is a choice of routes. And every time, the Tesla nav is routing me in a longer, less intuitive route. Some specific examples:

I travel often from Irvine to Murrieta, CA. I choose to take the 91 Expressway Toll Lanes. Waze has adopted to my choice when many months ago it would insist on routing me via the 241 toll road. Waze figured out that I ignore the 241 toll road because it costs money, and the 91 Toll Lanes are free for EVs. (Or, most likely, Waze just figured that the 2 minutes saved wasn't worth the effort.) In any case, even in the old days, Waze would understand at the very first turn that I wanted to use the 405 freeway when I turned toward the "wrong" direction. Waze would immediately recalculate using the 91 Toll Lanes.

But not so much Tesla nav. I have never experienced a more obstinate, stubborn computer program. Tesla nav would _insist _that I immediately turn around and proceed on the 241 toll road. At every exit on the 405, Tesla would demand that I exit and head toward the toll road, traffic be damned. ("Confirm lane change! Confirm lane change!) Tesla nav would keep this up for eight exits that I pass going toward the 91 Toll Lanes. Finally, Tesla would give up, once I neared the 91 Fwy. But it gets worse.

Once on the 91 Toll Lanes, Tesla nav has no concept that they are toll lanes separated from traffic by plastic posts. This explains why Tesla nav ignores the different traffic data from the Toll Lanes versus the regular traffic lanes. But the real problem is that the traffic is often really bad on the regular lanes, while it is going much faster on the Toll Lanes. Tesla nav has insisted at times that I confirm the lane change while on the Toll Lanes. This, of course, would result in the Model 3 taking out a row of plastic posts and damaging the car significantly. It still wants me to travel on surface streets even though I am committed to the Toll Lanes.

Other, less damaging situations constantly appear. Tesla nav insists when traveling from Irvine to Pasadena that I take a wholly different route than the one suggested by Waze. And when I take a different route Tesla nav is so incensed that it refuses to follow the new route and constantly insists that I turn the damn car around and go its way. It's like a petulant child. Rather than submitting to the new route, Tesla nav just won't give up.

So "Navigate on Autopilot" without confirmation seems like a program destined to fail. Sure, it's probably fine in areas where there are but a few exits and interchanges. But I wonder about all these "corner cases" where someone wants the convenience of Nav on AP but ignores the suggestions. I think my Tesla has a little more Hal in it than I want.


----------



## NOGA$4ME

Unplugged said:


> So "Navigate on Autopilot" without confirmation seems like a program destined to fail. Sure, it's probably fine in areas where there are but a few exits and interchanges. But I wonder about all these "corner cases" where someone wants the convenience of Nav on AP but ignores the suggestions. I think my Tesla has a little more Hal in it than I want.


Your experience is certainly a valid point. Aside from the specific cases where definitely wants to navigate into pylons and such though, I think a "program destined to fail" might be a bit extreme.

I use autopilot when I go to work in the morning. During the morning (and afternoon) commute, like you, I usually let Waze pick my route and don't really trust the car. It doesn't really pick the most optimal route. So in those cases, I would not use "Navigate on Autopilot", I would just use "Autopilot" and do lane changes myself (temporarily disengaging when taking exits, which is not a big deal because I've found that autopilot on ramps is a bit inconsistent speed-wise for my taste).

But if I'm on a trip, or on a known stretch where I know that NoA works well, then sure, I'll use it then, and I probably won't care as much (or even know) whether it's taking the absolute optimum route.

It's basically a choice I'm making to let the car make its own decisions and I will live with them, versus me wanting more control. Fortunately there is a button I can hit to switch back and forth between the two.


----------



## nonStopSwagger

From reading the details, it sounds like they have moved NOA lane changes from

Old behavior - you clicking the control stalks on the column to confirm a change
New behavior - you actively torqueing the wheel. Even if you told autopilot 5 seconds ago with a torque "I'm here", NOA won't make that new lane change it wants to do RIGHT NOW, unless you first torque the wheel again.
So, still needs a "confirm" of sorts, but instead of hitting the indicator, you turn the wheel. Not really doing it all by itself.

Until they remove the nags, they should stop calling these driver aids "Full Self Driving". Its still looking for input. Maybe PSD instead?


----------



## enowu

nonStopSwagger said:


> From reading the details, it sounds like they have moved NOA lane changes from
> 
> Old behavior - you clicking the control stalks on the column to confirm a change
> New behavior - you actively torqueing the wheel. Even if you told autopilot 5 seconds ago with a torque "I'm here", NOA won't make that new lane change it wants to do RIGHT NOW, unless you first torque the wheel again.
> So, still needs a "confirm" of sorts, but instead of hitting the indicator, you turn the wheel. Not really doing it all by itself.
> 
> Until they remove the nags, they should stop calling these driver aids "Full Self Driving". Its still looking for input. Maybe PSD instead?


I mean, you don't have to torque the wheel or turn it, it just needs to know you're there.

From what I know about machine learning, the feature on release will be far from perfect, but good enough, and will improve as the systems receive more driving data. While it's going to work 95% of the time, it's the 5% - the edge cases that are figured out over time - that will require drivers to keep their hands on the steering wheel. The nag is necessary, because overrides are still necessary.

Eventually, they'll activate the inactive interior camera located above the rear view mirror so that there's less grippy nagging, but the technology isn't at that point yet.


----------



## nonStopSwagger

enowu said:


> I mean, you don't have to torque the wheel or turn it, it just needs to know you're there.
> 
> From what I know about machine learning, the feature on release will be far from perfect, but good enough, and will improve as the systems receive more driving data. While it's going to work 95% of the time, it's the 5% - the edge cases that are figured out over time - that will require drivers to keep their hands on the steering wheel. The nag is necessary, because overrides are still necessary.
> 
> Eventually, they'll activate the inactive interior camera located above the rear view mirror so that there's less grippy nagging, but the technology isn't at that point yet.


It doesn't actually switch lanes without confirmation. Requires a little bit of torque for it to move over. If you never provide that torque it cancels the change.

So for example AP gives you the blue screen nag, you torque and it's happy for 45 more seconds. Then NOA wants to change lanes 5 seconds after your last torque, needs torque again.


----------



## Unplugged

NOGA$4ME said:


> Your experience is certainly a valid point. Aside from the specific cases where definitely wants to navigate into pylons and such though, I think a "program destined to fail" might be a bit extreme.
> 
> I use autopilot when I go to work in the morning. During the morning (and afternoon) commute, like you, I usually let Waze pick my route and don't really trust the car. It doesn't really pick the most optimal route. So in those cases, I would not use "Navigate on Autopilot", I would just use "Autopilot" and do lane changes myself (temporarily disengaging when taking exits, which is not a big deal because I've found that autopilot on ramps is a bit inconsistent speed-wise for my taste).
> 
> But if I'm on a trip, or on a known stretch where I know that NoA works well, then sure, I'll use it then, and I probably won't care as much (or even know) whether it's taking the absolute optimum route.
> 
> It's basically a choice I'm making to let the car make its own decisions and I will live with them, versus me wanting more control. Fortunately there is a button I can hit to switch back and forth between the two.


Yes, I was a bit hyperbolic in saying NOAP was "destined to fail." My disappointment at the Tesla nav is primarily what's irritating me. But there are things that concern me, especially in the latest update 2019.8.3. I have no doubt that these things will be ironed out by Tesla. But I think it's a little early to expect navigate on Autopilot to work seamlessly.

Recently, for instance, I found AP to be driving on or over the center line. I'm sure it will improve, but at this point, I have to be more engaged with driving to the point that I sometimes feel like a test pilot instead of an autopilot. For example:


----------



## NOGA$4ME

nonStopSwagger said:


> It doesn't actually switch lanes without confirmation. Requires a little bit of torque for it to move over. If you never provide that torque it cancels the change.
> 
> So for example AP gives you the blue screen nag, you torque and it's happy for 45 more seconds. Then NOA wants to change lanes 5 seconds after your last torque, needs torque again.


I guess I normally drive with a bit of constant torque on the wheel, so there's never actually a "confirmation". But that's just me I guess. If your method of using autopilot is to sit without your hands on the wheel and then wait for the nag and give the wheel a nudge, I guess you could interpret that as a "confirmation".

I do know that they talk about FSD, but I don't think they are referring to it as Full Self Driving at this point. Still just autopilot (or really, Navigate on Autopilot). I guess the question is, what would you prefer? To wait until the system is 100% perfected and fully autonomous, or for them to release it in stages and undergo incremental improvements? I guess you have a choice there as well. If you prefer, you can simply wait and not pay for FSD until it gets to level 5 and just not worry about the fact that it's not fully autonomous yet.


----------



## nonStopSwagger

NOGA$4ME said:


> I guess I normally drive with a bit of constant torque on the wheel, so there's never actually a "confirmation". But that's just me I guess. If your method of using autopilot is to sit without your hands on the wheel and then wait for the nag and give the wheel a nudge, I guess you could interpret that as a "confirmation".
> 
> I do know that they talk about FSD, but I don't think they are referring to it as Full Self Driving at this point. Still just autopilot (or really, Navigate on Autopilot). I guess the question is, what would you prefer? To wait until the system is 100% perfected and fully autonomous, or for them to release it in stages and undergo incremental improvements? I guess you have a choice there as well. If you prefer, you can simply wait and not pay for FSD until it gets to level 5 and just not worry about the fact that it's not fully autonomous yet.


I paid for FSD when I placed my order last June. Honestly, I had plans to just pay for AP, but that darn demo video they made in 2016 (model X doing FSD) was playing in the configurator autopilot page as I was rushing in my order. Anyway a moment of weakness took me, and here I am today....


----------



## RSavage

nonStopSwagger said:


> It doesn't actually switch lanes without confirmation. Requires a little bit of torque for it to move over. If you never provide that torque it cancels the change.
> So for example AP gives you the blue screen nag, you torque and it's happy for 45 more seconds. Then NOA wants to change lanes 5 seconds after your last torque, needs torque again.


Your description is somewhat misleading and not in line with the description given by Tesla. AP always wants to know you are there and paying attention. I keep my thumb and forefinger on the lower part of the wheel CONSTANTLY and apply a VERY slight amout of radial pressure at all times. I am NEVER nagged...ever. If you are driving around with your hands completely off the wheel, you are making your life more complicated, and asking the car to do something it's not designed to do. By suggesting that you must somehow TORQUE the wheel for any reason is silly....anything more than very small amounts of radial pressure will immediately disengage AP. As far as NOA not being FSD.....there's no argument there....that's clearly stated by Tesla....NOA is absolutely not FSD at this point.


----------



## GDN

nonStopSwagger said:


> From reading the details, it sounds like they have moved NOA lane changes from
> 
> Old behavior - you clicking the control stalks on the column to confirm a change
> New behavior - you actively torqueing the wheel. Even if you told autopilot 5 seconds ago with a torque "I'm here", NOA won't make that new lane change it wants to do RIGHT NOW, unless you first torque the wheel again.
> So, still needs a "confirm" of sorts, but instead of hitting the indicator, you turn the wheel. Not really doing it all by itself.
> 
> Until they remove the nags, they should stop calling these driver aids "Full Self Driving". Its still looking for input. Maybe PSD instead?


I think it has been said in a reply or two for you, but no, the new NOA described will make the decision and make the lane change without your input. You touching the wheel to let AP know you are still awake and aware has nothing to do with the lane change. That happens at all times on AP, it needs to know you are there.


----------



## nonStopSwagger

RSavage said:


> Your description is somewhat misleading and not in line with the description given by Tesla. AP always wants to know you are there and paying attention. I keep my thumb and forefinger on the lower part of the wheel CONSTANTLY and apply a VERY slight amout of radial pressure at all times. I am NEVER nagged...ever. If you are driving around with your hands completely off the wheel, you are making your life more complicated, and asking the car to do something it's not designed to do. By suggesting that you must somehow TORQUE the wheel for any reason is silly....anything more than very small amounts of radial pressure will immediately disengage AP. As far as NOA not being FSD.....there's no argument there....that's clearly stated by Tesla....NOA is absolutely not FSD at this point.


I drive with one hand at the 7 o clock position with AP on. Still get occasional nags. Clearly I'm not doing it right. Feels worse with 8.3 than prior versions.

The example I gave above for NoA is to illustrate that it wants driver feedback before making the lane change manover. Lots of folks on Reddit chatting about it tonight who have the beta, with mixed opinions.

Tesla are very misleading using the term full self driving. If you ask any non Tesla owner what they think it means, they will give you a very different answer to what Tesla owners know it means, at least today anyway.

Still love my car.


----------



## tipton

you definitely do not have to confirm lane changes via torque on the wheel (unless the blue need to confirm notification just so happens to coincide)

you can set wheel to vibrate and for a chime to occur when the car is going to change lanes and there is ample time to cancel


----------



## JDM3

tipton said:


> you definitely do not have to confirm lane changes via torque on the wheel (unless the blue need to confirm notification just so happens to coincide)
> 
> you can set wheel to vibrate and for a chime to occur when the car is going to change lanes and there is ample time to cancel


I'm not sure if I'm doing something wrong, but I've always had to torque the wheel during my testing, otherwise the lane change will cancel. My hands are always on the wheel and sometimes I get nagged, other times I don't. Still haven't figured out the right pressure I guess.


----------



## NOGA$4ME

nonStopSwagger said:


> I paid for FSD when I placed my order last June. Honestly, I had plans to just pay for AP, but that darn demo video they made in 2016 (model X doing FSD) was playing in the configurator autopilot page as I was rushing in my order. Anyway a moment of weakness took me, and here I am today....


Well this is probably an entirely different discussion. When I bought my 3, I did not get FSD because despite what Elon keeps saying (which is the real problem that he keeps talking about it like it's going to show up in a few months), I figure it will be *years* before we see anything resembling what I would consider _self-driving_, if only due to regulations, but also due to various challenges in getting that last 5-10% of challenging situations. I love Tesla and overall think they are doing an excellent job in advancing EV technology, but in the case of self-driving I think they are seriously over-estimating the difficulty in getting to a full level 5 capability (although I do think they will eventually get there). For that reason I felt that an FSD purchase at the time would not be justified (other than giving Tesla a free down payment) as I would be buying a product that would not be available for a long time.

Now when the price was temporarily dropped to $2K for me, I did bite. I do think they will roll out enough intermediate features over the next several years to make me feel like that was a good investment.

But I do understand your position, and I have to put the blame on Elon who keeps talking like by the end of the year we will see most FSD features, and what we end up seeing are significant, but not really "full" improvements. That's the eventual goal for sure. At least they did the right thing by pulling mention of FSD off the standard order page.


----------



## airj1012

We'll be getting some good FSD updates in two weeks.

http://ir.tesla.com/news-releases/news-release-details/tesla-host-autonomy-investor-day


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## NOGA$4ME

And back to the OP's original comment, the 2019.8.5 release does contain this functionality: https://teslaownersonline.com/threa...2019-8-5-3aaa23d-04-04-2019.12217/post-223311


----------



## iChris93

airj1012 said:


> We'll be getting some good FSD updates in two weeks.
> 
> http://ir.tesla.com/news-releases/news-release-details/tesla-host-autonomy-investor-day


Just getting a look at them. They won't be ready for release.


----------



## airj1012

iChris93 said:


> Just getting a look at them. They won't be ready for release.


Ya, but it should be exciting. These are probably the features that Elon thinks we'll be getting by EOY. Now we all probably think that timing will be off, but it'll be cool to see what they're developing.


----------



## NOGA$4ME

iChris93 said:


> Just getting a look at them. They won't be ready for release.


I think he was saying that we are going to get an update on FSD features, not actual updates in the car.


----------



## iChris93

NOGA$4ME said:


> I think he was saying that we are going to get an update on FSD features, not actual updates in the car.


Oh, sorry @airj1012 I mistook what you meant by update!


----------



## hydrofied714

I tried Navigate On Autopilot once but stopped using it after how poorly it handled the freeway exit. It just abruptly swerved to right exit lane. Freaked me out to be honest. Have they improved this? Also I was wondering what the car does once it exits the driver has to take over? Does it come to a stop and Autopilot is disabled?


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## lance.bailey

when the car exits the freeway (by itself  ) I get a message about Navigate On Autopilot ending in XX distance. When it ends the car changes to AutoSteer/AutoPilot which I usually change to TACC because I find that AutoSteer/AutoPilot does not handle the forks/merges/turn-lanes and general craziness of exit ramps where I live.


----------



## Needsdecaf

Anyone notice AP / NOA quality DEGRADE a bit? After successfully running this software since last week, and noting that everything was quite smooth, I noticed yesterday the car seemed to be tracking less true while headed straight ahead. Also noticed that in traffic it was on/ off / on / off the acceleration instead of fairly smooth. Was similar again this morning.


----------



## iChris93

lance.bailey said:


> when the car exits the freeway (by itself  ) I get a message about Navigate On Autopilot ending in XX distance. When it ends the car changes to AutoSteer/AutoPilot which I usually change to TACC because I find that AutoSteer/AutoPilot does not handle the forks/merges/turn-lanes and general craziness of exit ramps where I live.


I usually end both TACC and AutoSteer as the car likes to accelerate to take an exit and I prefer to drive more efficiently and coast to the intersection.


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## hydrofied714

lance.bailey said:


> when the car exits the freeway (by itself  ) I get a message about Navigate On Autopilot ending in XX distance. When it ends the car changes to AutoSteer/AutoPilot which I usually change to TACC because I find that AutoSteer/AutoPilot does not handle the forks/merges/turn-lanes and general craziness of exit ramps where I live.


Thanks. How well does AP handle the forks?


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## lance.bailey

AP handles forks pretty good on roads, but off ramps seem hard. there is one exit ramp from the free way (91 exit from 99 south for those in the greater Vancouver area) that AP and NoAP just cannot handle.


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## francoisp

If there is one thing that scares my wife, it's NoAP merging onto the exit ramp. She begs me to cancel NoAP when we're close to exiting the highway. And I see her point. When I compare the smoothness of changing lanes to the aggressiveness of exiting the highway it's hard to believe that both functions were created by the same software group. I'm hoping that Tesla will address this in the near future.


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## NOGA$4ME

I think you bring up a good point. But I see that it varies quite a bit from offramp to offramp. On some offramps it's actually pretty smooth and "human like". On others, it's a quick jerk over. I'm wondering how much is due to lane markings (or lack thereof). I've noticed that usually it puts the blinker on just before making the exit, but on one in particular, it puts the blinker on very early and even makes a preliminary move to the right, only to quit the attempt (as it realizes the exit lane hasn't yet started, and then jerks it back into the offramp once it does recognize it.


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## francoisp

NOGA$4ME said:


> I think you bring up a good point. But I see that it varies quite a bit from offramp to offramp.


In my case it appears to be always the case and the ramps have visible lines.


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## NOGA$4ME

Yes, all the ramps have visible lines in my case too, but in the one case there is an additional shoulder line, or maybe a small break in the shoulder line prior to the actual exit lane that throws it off (at least that's what I'm thinking). It's almost that the exits with poorer markings behave better!


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## lance.bailey

i've commented here a few times that my model three cannot NoAP the east bound 99 exit ramp to northbound 91. other exits are smooth as can be, but that exit has the car start to exits. shudder, crap out and aim me directly at the barrier between the freeway the the exit ramp. not good.

took a closer look at that exit last week and that exit is missing the white line between the exit and the gravel shoulder and I think that is the problem. Now unless I take a can of spray paint to "fix the problem" and see if NoAP does a better job of it, this is supposition, but it is the only exit missing that white shoulder line and the one exit that NoAP cannot maneuver.


----------



## Long Ranger

It definitely varies a lot by offramp. It's quite smooth on most of the ones I take, but abrupt on others. I disable NOA before an unknown exit if I have a passenger.

I recall someone here saying that it follows the shoulder line quite literally, so if the shoulder line shifts abruptly, so will the car. I haven't tested that much, but here's one spot where I know the lane change is abrupt, and the shoulder line has a corresponding shift.
https://goo.gl/maps/UTXG1x6QApRn8x9t6


----------



## Jarettp

I'm having issues with it just flat out being in the wrong lane for my exit. NOAP is dogsh*t in northern Virginia on 95. My exit, it gets over 2 lanes when it only needs to get over 1 then tries to come back to the first exit lane. There's an exit that it will take everytime no matter what my destination is. If you have hov turned on it will try to steer me into the closed express lane gate, there's a part of the highway where it will send me 5 lanes to the right for f*ck all reason. I emailed them about a lot of this stuff but it's like the info is going into a black hole.


----------



## Gordon87

I drive using NOA on I-290 West in Chicago. NOA always stops just when I need to take the same exit, requiring me to take over and exit the highway.


----------



## Scubastevo80

Gordon87 said:


> I drive using NOA on I-290 West in Chicago. NOA always stops just when I need to take the same exit, requiring me to take over and exit the highway.


I don't use NOA for any of the 3 exits I usually take on 280W in NJ. For my usual exit at the bottom of a hill, it won't even get over, perhaps because of the highway speed versus short runway to move over the dashed line. Another exit is at the beginning of a portion of the highway where the road bends left. Basically, you go almost straight to take an exit which is plenty wide and has enough distance to slow down. As soon as the lane appears, the car jerks right and may or may not hit the curb on that side (I have always cancelled NoA in fear of curbing wheels). The last is another somewhat short ramp that may or may not have traffic backed up. The car puts on the turn signal as in other cases, but simply fails to move over. In defense of autopilot, none of these scenarios except #2 are straightforward and there are actions I may take for safety reasons that I don't believe the car would (e.g. crossing over a solid line to have sufficient time to slow and queue up for the exit). I hope neural net makes this better, otherwise EAP (for me personally) is no more than TACC and lane keeping assist.


----------



## Madmolecule

It would be nice to cancel lane change by using one of the scroll wheels. Its is kind of a pain to reach for the screen if it is making a bad choice.


----------



## Mr. Spacely

Madmolecule said:


> It would be nice to cancel lane change by using one of the scroll wheels. Its is kind of a pain to reach for the screen if it is making a bad choice.


Cancel lane change by using your turn signal. If it is trying to go right, pull down the left turn signal half way and it cancels...


----------



## Madmolecule

Mr. Spacely said:


> Cancel lane change by using your turn signal. If it is trying to go right, pull down the left turn signal half way and it cancels...


I will give that a try. Although that reminds me, in 20,000 miles, I have not mastered the turn signal. Every time I try to cancel the left signal I turn the right on. I have tried a few different techniques but I over or under do it, nearly every time. It would also be helpful is the turn signal icon doubled in size when it is turned on. It would be nice if this feature was tied to music volume.


----------



## garsh

Nav on Autopilot lane change anomaly.

Normally, I take over to complete the lane change when it feels like it's aborting. But there was nobody near me this time, so I just let it go to see what it would do. And it did eventually complete the lane change.

My best guess is that it got confused by the appearance of tire tracks in the water on the road, and temporarily thought that they were lane lines.


----------



## MelindaV

garsh said:


> My best guess is that it got confused by the appearance of tire tracks in the water on the road, and temporarily thought that they were lane lines.


IDK... this last weekend, I drove up to Seattle, and going thru the always-under-construction-Tacoma, there was a stretch of a couple miles where the lanes were shifted over, and the old lane markers were only partially removed and still showing. AP didn't flinch in the least on where it needed to be. IIRC, also did an AP lane change (non-NoA) and it was perfect. So think in your case, there was something besides the tire tracks in the rain to throw it off the lane change.


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## garsh

MelindaV said:


> IDK... this last weekend, I drove up to Seattle, and going thru the always-under-construction-Tacoma...


See, it knows how to handle construction, because they have construction in California.

What they don't have is weather.


----------



## Ksb466

Made a left turn at light on EAP without intervention. Sorry, you'll have to take my word that it was on EAP, or you can ask my son. In fairness, it was probably a relatively easy left for Tesla, but in the past it wouldn't make this particular turn successfully. Here's the Teslacam


----------



## SalisburySam

NoAP does a remarkably good job getting me from near Charlotte up I-85 to GSO (Piedmont Triad) airport. Once I get on I-85 it successfully transitions me through two other Interstates and onto the airport feeder road before disconnecting itself. And that includes two speed changes and lots of correct lane choices. However, it cannot negotiate any of the same transitions on the return trip. Hmmm.


----------



## DocScott

Ksb466 said:


> Made a left turn at light on EAP without intervention. Sorry, you'll have to take my word that it was on EAP, or you can ask my son. In fairness, it was probably a relatively easy left for Tesla, but in the past it wouldn't make this particular turn successfully. Here's the Teslacam


There's a lane marker on the left side for the left turn, and the stop line on the right side, so it pretty much just looks like the road curves that way to the neural net.


----------



## Mr. Spacely

Mine is regularly making a similar right hand turn in a spot with two lanes turning right with some lane markings...


----------



## iChris93

slave0418 said:


> Is NOA available with FSD only? I just got model 3 2 weeks ago.


You cannot purchase FSD without AP or EAP.


----------



## M3OC Rules

slave0418 said:


> Is NOA available with FSD only? I just got model 3 2 weeks ago.


Yes assuming you bought a new one and not a used one.

Autopilot that comes with the car only has autosteer and traffic-aware cruise. All of the other autopilot features are part of the FSD package now. They changed it earlier this year. It used to be that you had to get Enhanced Autopilot to get any autopilot and it included all of the features that are available today. Then FSD was an upgrade on top of that for future features none of which are available today.


----------



## iChris93

M3OC Rules said:


> Yes assuming you bought a new one and not a used one.
> 
> Autopilot that comes with the car only has autosteer and traffic-aware cruise. All of the other autopilot features are part of the FSD package now. They changed it earlier this year. It used to be that you had to get Enhanced Autopilot to get any autopilot and it included all of the features that are available today. Then FSD was an upgrade on top of that for future features none of which are available today.


Ohhh... I totally misinterpreted their question.


----------



## Scubastevo80

I have to vent... my wife bought a storage bookcase from Ikea yesterday but didn't realize she wouldn't be able to fit it and our two kids in her S. I ended up going to get it with our 3, and attempted to use NOA on 78 in NJ. 

Cruise set to 72, about 7 miles from the next exit. When I was in the middle lane behind a car doing 65, I manually indicated for the passing lane (since the car wouldn't do it by itself) and the car switched to the passing lane. Almost immediately and before passing the slower car, it would auto suggest me going back to the middle lane. If I clicked cancel, it would pop up again immediatley. After rapid fire clicking cancel, I shut it off. Same scenario on the way home and same result. I'm not sure if I need to set the car to mad max or up my speed significantly, but the feature is becoming incredibly frustrating for me.


----------



## iChris93

Scubastevo80 said:


> I have to vent... my wife bought a storage bookcase from Ikea yesterday but didn't realize she wouldn't be able to fit it and our two kids in her S. I ended up going to get it with our 3, and attempted to use NOA on 78 in NJ.
> 
> Cruise set to 72, about 7 miles from the next exit. When I was in the middle lane behind a car doing 65, I manually indicated for the passing lane (since the car wouldn't do it by itself) and the car switched to the passing lane. Almost immediately and before passing the slower car, it would auto suggest me going back to the middle lane. If I clicked cancel, it would pop up again immediatley. After rapid fire clicking cancel, I shut it off. Same scenario on the way home and same result. I'm not sure if I need to set the car to mad max or up my speed significantly, but the feature is becoming incredibly frustrating for me.


It might be an error in the map data thinking that lane ends.


----------



## garsh

Scubastevo80 said:


> ... it would auto suggest me going back to the middle lane. If I clicked cancel, it would pop up again immediatley. After rapid fire clicking cancel, I shut it off.


There are several locations around me where NoA mistakenly wants me in the wrong lane. I've simply learned to ignore it, but I don't allow it to automatically change lanes itself (because of all of these mistakes).


----------



## MelindaV

I think if you always remember these things (if AP, NoA, TACC, etc) are intended to assist you, and you are there to override it, you will be less stressed over trying to force it to behave like you expect it to.

instead of fighting NoA by canceling lane change prompts every 20 seconds, turn NoA off and use traditional AP until past that area.


----------



## Needsdecaf

I've completely given up on NOA. 

After the last updates, it actually doesn't work at all. Won't suggest lane changes, will let me drop 10-15 MPH below target speed as I sit behind a car, does nothing. Will let me sit in the passing lane with no one in the right lane for extended stretches. Does nothing. Literally does not suggest a change. 

I have a service set up for my seat, will ask them to look but not sure of the outcome.


----------



## iChris93

Needsdecaf said:


> I have a service set up for my seat, will ask them to look but not sure of the outcome.


That seems like a good idea. There haven't been many, if any, other posts about it acting up that badly so hopefully they can suggestion something for you.


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## garsh

I keep NoA activated for two things:

The ability to correctly handle lane splits. It does a wonderful job, and I have two of them during my daily commute.
The ability to correctly handle changing from one highway to another. It doesn't do so as smoothly as I'd like, so it's more of a "party trick" kind of thing, were I like to see if it's getting any better, but I still think it's pretty neat that it's able to do this.
But overall, I'm not happy with its lane-changing decisions yet, so I leave that in the "require confirmation" mode.


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## Enginerd

garsh said:


> The ability to correctly handle lane splits. It does a wonderful job


Can you explain this? I find that every time a single lane splits into two, AP acts like a crazy person, with 2-3 aggressive swerves before settling into a lane... while I sink down in the seat and prepare to answer the officer requesting a breathalyzer test. Lane changes for passing and exiting are fine. But the lane split is certain chaos.


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## Scubastevo80

MelindaV said:


> I think if you always remember these things (if AP, NoA, TACC, etc) are intended to assist you, and you are there to override it, you will be less stressed over trying to force it to behave like you expect it to.
> 
> instead of fighting NoA by canceling lane change prompts every 20 seconds, turn NoA off and use traditional AP until past that area.


Melinda - I totally understand that this is a driving assistant aid, and I don't use it for my daily commute anymore (about 10 mile stretch of highway merging into a crowded section of route 280 in NJ). I was surprised at the regression in NoA's lane change ability, and given the NoA feature being the one closest to FSD, it helps inform my decision not to purchase that software because I believe we're farther off from FSD than Tesla wants to believe. I'm not interested in flicking NoA on and off, I'd rather just leave in regular AP for the remainder of drive... but maybe I'm just impatient.


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## garsh

Enginerd said:


> Can you explain this? I find that every time a single lane splits into two, AP acts like a crazy person, with 2-3 aggressive swerves before settling into a lane... while I sink down in the seat and prepare to answer the officer requesting a breathalyzer test. Lane changes for passing and exiting are fine. But the lane split is certain chaos.


It probably depends on the split itself.

I have two splits on my commute. NoA always handled the first one perfectly. No swerving at all - nice and smooth. The only "flaw" is that sometimes it puts on a turn signal, and other times it does not. I have not been able to figure out why it sometimes does and sometimes doesn't.

For the second split, it would originally kind of act like you describe. It would be a little confused at first before finally figuring out that it needed to choose a lane, and then finally choose correctly. But that was solved for me sometime in the last several months. Now it handles that one fairly well too.

My best guess is that this is a "fight" between autopilot's lane-keeping, and NoA's lane splitting. If the "lane splitting" logic hasn't been activated yet, then the "lane-keeping" code will be in effect, and it just can't handle lane splits correctly. And if it's kind of a 50/50 chance at which lane it's going to pick, and it makes a new decision several times per second, then that could lead to the type of behavior that you describe. I think the solution is to update the car's maps to tell it that the lane split happens a little earlier than what the current map data believes is the case. But again, this is just an educated guess about how Tesla's software works.


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## teslarules

I've noticed on both my M3 and MX it nags much more on the highway to work, it is not an interstate but a straight easy 50MPH road. Nags every 15 - 20 seconds now, much more annoying than before.


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## garsh

teslarules said:


> I've noticed on both my M3 and MX it nags much more on the highway to work, it is not an interstate but a straight easy 50MPH road. Nags every 15 - 20 seconds now, much more annoying than before.


I generally keep one hand on the wheel, at 4-5 o-clock. The weight of my hand & arm is enough to prevent the car from nagging.


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