# Tesla Model 3 for commuting 40k miles per year?



## lacofdfireman (Mar 27, 2019)

So I have a rather long commute from St. George, UT to Los Angeles where I work as a Fireman. I’ve been doing this commute in an ICE car for over 10 years. I’ve steered clear of EV’s because of concerns of longevity and the amount of miles I drive per year which is consistently around 40k miles. It’s almost a straight shot down I-15 where there are multiple super chargers along the route. I seriously considering a Long Range Model 3 but have some concerns. 

1. What’s the cars longevity? It hasn’t been out long enough that I’ve seen any higher mileage ones so I have no idea what type of out of warranty work I’ll end up needing. I could possibly run out of factory warranty the first year of ownership. 

2. Is it truly cheaper than my ICE cars that I’ve been driving per mile? Right now I’m driving a 2016 Toyota Corolla with 120k miles that gets about 34mpg’s. I typically do 4 round trips to work per month at a cost of $300 for fuel. 3200 miles per month average driving distance. 

The safety features of autopilot are intriguing. I realize it’s not autonomous but there is definitely some safety aspects that make the car worth considering doing this many miles. My biggest concern is how much it will cost me when it’s out of warranty. 

If you were doing this many miles would you even consider a Model 3?

Looking forward to the replies. Give it to me straight.


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## Artdept (Nov 6, 2017)

is there someway for the LA county fire dept to pay for your gas and car?


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## MJJ (Aug 7, 2016)

I was going to argue a downside of having to stop along the way to charge, but I bet you want to take a break once or twice anyway, and you barely need a topping up to make the 390 mile trip, if you get the big battery. Your route has a ton of superchargers.

I’m on track to put on about 40k mi/yr on ours, and I’m finding the autopilot to be a game changer. There is so much less fatigue. We like to nit pick here, but the model 3 does (at least) 2 things astonishingly well: 1) keep position in lane, and 2) not drive into things. Just these things alone offload so much of the menial tasks of driving long distance. That’s a big check in the plus side for improving the quality of your life.

Reliability? Anybody up to telling the future? Chatter is that components are robust. We have simplicity on our side. Attention to detail is a wild card though. I’d imagine you have good opportunity to get service while you’re in LA though, and you have the benefit of prolonged duty periods.

Get it! (What did you expect? We’re biased here . )


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## Ken Voss (Feb 2, 2017)

I love my model 3 and wouldn't trade it for anything else but in your case consider a used model S with "FREE SUPERCHARGING" instead of a model 3. With that kind of commute, most of your charging will be at superchargers and rates are subject to increase. Without free supercharging, you should look at current rates in Utah, Nevada and California and calculate how much you will be spending, I think you will find that a used Model S will be more economical for you.


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## MelindaV (Apr 2, 2016)

lacofdfireman said:


> 1. What's the cars longevity? It hasn't been out long enough that I've seen any higher mileage ones so I have no idea what type of out of warranty work I'll end up needing. I could possibly run out of factory warranty the first year of ownership.


better than an ICE car. there are very few moving parts to wear out.


lacofdfireman said:


> 2. Is it truly cheaper than my ICE cars that I've been driving per mile? Right now I'm driving a 2016 Toyota Corolla with 120k miles that gets about 34mpg's. I typically do 4 round trips to work per month at a cost of $300 for fuel. 3200 miles per month average driving distance.


Yes, absolutely. take your 3200 miles x 300Wh/mile for 960,000 watts (or 960kW) multiply that by your electricity rate (for me it is $.08 so would be $76.80.). Even using $.30/kW that is an average California Supercharger rate, you are at $228 for the month.



lacofdfireman said:


> The safety features of autopilot are intriguing. I realize it's not autonomous but there is definitely some safety aspects that make the car worth considering doing this many miles. My biggest concern is how much it will cost me when it's out of warranty.


The help TACC and autosteer add to a freeway drive, especially a long one, is amazing and 100% worth the cost.


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## lacofdfireman (Mar 27, 2019)

They give me a decent paycheck but they don’t pay for it. I’d rely on super chargers. I have a friend who owns a 2015 Model S and he claims they come with an 8 year bumper to bumper unlimited mileage warranty so until 2023 and free super chargers for life. Is this true? Might be a better option although the range is not near as good as the 3. But I’ll have to use a super charger somewhere between work and home anyway so may be a better option. Then I don’t have to worry about batteries and drive motors etc for a few years.


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## Foxtrotter (Sep 12, 2017)

I think you would find the LR RWD a great replacement. Assuming 250Wh/mile which is what we get at highway speeds of 65 or so, I calculated supercharger fees of $208 for a month. If you can charge at home and in LA for free or lower rates you could chop something like 15% off that. Your maintenance costs would be much lower. Look at the recommended service intervals for the few needed services. Your tire costs might be higher as its a heavier car with bigger tires. As to long term reliability there are no data at this point, but the motors have been touted as designed/tested for one million miles. So you would reduce your routine maintenance costs which you have not given.

As far as autopilot. You will love it on that kind of drive. It just makes long distance cruising much less tiring because you are not having to constantly keep the car in the lane and avoid hitting other traffic. It is amazing how much less tiring driving is when all you are doing is monitoring the job the car is doing. And I'm sure there is no comparison between the crash safety of a Corolla and a Model 3.


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## MelindaV (Apr 2, 2016)

lacofdfireman said:


> They give me a decent paycheck but they don't pay for it. I'd rely on super chargers. I have a friend who owns a 2015 Model S and he claims they come with an 8 year bumper to bumper unlimited mileage warranty so until 2023 and free super chargers for life. Is this true? Might be a better option although the range is not near as good as the 3. But I'll have to use a super charger somewhere between work and home anyway so may be a better option. Then I don't have to worry about batteries and drive motors etc for a few years.


warranty varies by model. for the 3, go to this page and scroll down to the "specs" section and flip thru the different models
https://www.tesla.com/model3

for the Long Range & Performance:
Vehicle
4 year 50,000 miles
Battery & Drive Unit
8 year 120,000 miles

while the Standard & Standard +:
Vehicle
4 year 50,000 miles
Battery & Drive Unit
8 year 100,000 miles

The S models:
4 years, basic vehicle
8 years, battery & powertrain


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## Ed Woodrick (May 26, 2018)

You will be the prime candidate for FSD.

The longevity of the Model 3? Right now it's about 1.5 years, only because that is how long the Model 3 has been produced. There are Model S and X that have been around for a long time with a lot of miles (>500,000) on them. The Model 3 was built to beat this. The Tesla Semi, which is built for really long distances is using a lot of parts and concepts from the Model 3, so they are definitely building them to last a really long time.

Superchargers are different prices in different locations. Looking at the Tesla trip map, you'll be stopping for about 50 minutes at a Supercharger, which should be less than $15. This would assume that you charge at home and at the fire house, these both could possibly be 120V plugs. And the stops would add about an hour to your commute.

In your case, I think that the reliability of an EV and ICE would put the EV on the best side. With electronics, most failures tend to happen early in life. With mechanical items, they happed as the parts wear down. Electric motors are one of those things that really can go for many years without issues. 
It then comes down to the battery. So far, no one has seen that much degradation on the batteries. (Some of the 5+ year old batteries had issues, but not recent ones) And the battery should be able to replaced, at which time it's like a new car.


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## Bigriver (Jan 26, 2018)

lacofdfireman said:


> I have a friend who owns a 2015 Model S and he claims they come with an 8 year bumper to bumper unlimited mileage warranty so until 2023 and free super chargers for life. Is this true? .


Free supercharging for life is no longer available on new Model S's (or any Tesla). But the oldest ones that have free unlimited supercharging can transfer with the car. Then there are intermediate age ones that have free supercharging that would not transfer to the new owner.

My bets are on the slot that Tesla's will far outlast other cars.


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## garsh (Apr 4, 2016)

Ken Voss said:


> I love my model 3 and wouldn't trade it for anything else but in your case consider a used model S with "FREE SUPERCHARGING" instead of a model 3.


I don't know if this is the right argument. If he charges to full at home before leaving, then he only needs to supercharge for ~100 miles to complete the trip to work. It sounds like the LAFD may already have 3 EVSEs installed (reference). If he can use one of those to fill up again, then again he'd only have to supercharge for part of the trip back home. Given all of that, I don't think the price premium of a Model S is worth it just to get free supercharging.


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## Long Ranger (Jun 1, 2018)

garsh said:


> It sounds like the LAFD may already have 3 EVSEs installed (reference).


That's LA City. LA County is a completely separate (and huge) Fire Department.

I do think the question of whether @lacofdfireman has access to convenient charging in LA is an important factor to consider. With any EV you really want easy access to charging wherever you sleep, so you can always start with a full charge. You don't want to start your trip at a Supercharger.


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## Smokey S (Sep 30, 2018)

Actually , the supercharging time will get shorter with the increase max Kw (from 120 to 147) on V2 superchargers and if they install a V3 supercharger Max Kw 250Kw along the route you will travel. If you get a home EV charger - $500 for Tesla Charger (on a spare 50 amp breaker) plus electrician installation costs, if not DYI.

One of the Youtuber channel, TechForum, has already put 40k miles on his model 3 in a year and I don’t think he has had any maintenance performed except tire rotation and switch between winter/summer tires. He uses the car for business around his area.

Recently, Tesla recommended , for Model 3, to rotate tires every 10-12k miles, A/C service every 6 years ,and brake fluid test/replacement plus cabin filter replacement every 2 years. Brake pads probably will not need replacement for a while (more than ICE cars) because of regenerative braking. That’s about it for regular maintenance.


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## GDN (Oct 30, 2017)

Even if the fire department doesn’t have a charger today, you might be able to agree to pay for the charger if they would install it. Could charge while at work as well. I think your gas and maintenance savings would easily allow you to install the charging infrastructure at both locations.


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## tencate (Jan 11, 2018)

Smokey S said:


> for Model 3, to rotate tires every 10-12k miles,


really? got a link? Michelin recommends rotating the 18 inch tires used on the Model 3 every 10,000 km and I've done that. Max has 32k miles, and if you can charge at work and home, it's the perfect car for what you need to do. Ah, and the joys of TACC in LA traffic are worth their weight in gold.


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## Smokey S (Sep 30, 2018)

tencate said:


> really? got a link? Michelin recommends rotating the 18 inch tires used on the Model 3 every 10,000 km and I've done that. Max has 32k miles, and if you can charge at work and home, it's the perfect car for what you need to do. Ah, and the joys of TACC in LA traffic are worth their weight in gold.


Here is the link to the article I read about Tesla maintenance.
https://electrek.co/2019/03/22/tesl...ram-focuses-of-ev-requiring-less-maintenance/


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## MJJ (Aug 7, 2016)

Smokey S said:


> Here is the link to the article I read about Tesla maintenance.
> https://electrek.co/2019/03/22/tesl...ram-focuses-of-ev-requiring-less-maintenance/


... and the owners manual:

Tire Rotation, Balance, and Wheel Alignment
Tesla recommends rotating the tires every 6,250 miles (10,000 km).


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## Smokey S (Sep 30, 2018)

MJJ said:


> ... and the owners manual:
> 
> Tire Rotation, Balance, and Wheel Alignment
> Tesla recommends rotating the tires every 6,250 miles (10,000 km).


Yes - per the manual it recommends, but I believe it depends how you drive, tire inflation, type of tire installed, and the tire wear depending on the model 3 type (RWD, AWD and Performance).


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## lacofdfireman (Mar 27, 2019)

Well super bummed as this is not going to be a reality for me for a year or two. We just sold our home because the market is high where we live and I’m thinking we are going to see a correction in the next year or two. We just signed a year lease to rent a house and The house I live in the power panel is on the complete opposite side of the house away from the garage. I figured if the panel was on the outside of the garage it would we easy to run a 50amp service inside the garage but jo way I’ll get permission to pull power all the way around the house. Plus I’m sure it would be very expansive. So I’ll just have to wait until we decide when and where to build our house in a year or two. Bummer. The thought of commuting in a Tesla are super appealing to me. But it’s going to have to wait.


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## MelindaV (Apr 2, 2016)

lacofdfireman said:


> Well super bummed as this is not going to be a reality for me for a year or two. We just sold our home because the market is high where we live and I'm thinking we are going to see a correction in the next year or two. We just signed a year lease to rent a house and The house I live in the power panel is on the complete opposite side of the house away from the garage. I figured if the panel was on the outside of the garage it would we easy to run a 50amp service inside the garage but jo way I'll get permission to pull power all the way around the house. Plus I'm sure it would be very expansive. So I'll just have to wait until we decide when and where to build our house in a year or two. Bummer. The thought of commuting in a Tesla are super appealing to me. But it's going to have to wait.


there are many that charge from a standard 110v outlet. getting a 50A 220v is nice to have, but not mandatory.


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## Guest (Mar 31, 2019)

MelindaV said:


> there are many that charge from a standard 110v outlet.


Indeed! All is not lost just yet. Depending on the number of daisy chained 120v duplexes on the branch circuit in and around your rental garage, along with the wire ga. size may possibly allow you to charge at rates between 7 and 15 mph provided you have enough layover/weekend time to charge your new LR 3. An exterior 120v receptacle at the fire house will fill you back up from "E" over a couple of days.

A friend of ours was the first privately owned S to reach 100,000 miles and then 200,000 miles on his S. Even though his S is powered with 18650 cells with is a different form factor from our 2170 cells (~48% larger), the chemistry is similar. If you take care (stay away from the bottom and top SOC as much as possible) of your battery, you should obtain >400,000 miles from your pack.

This is coming from a two Tesla owner that is far from being one of the many Kool-Aid consumers on this forum.

Good luck and don't give up just yet on making a rational decision that truly suits your ICE vs. Tesla particular needs.

(schh....my current fav car of my 7 vehicles, 2 NEVs is actually my 14 year old 300,000 mile (it will go to 600,000 if I live long enough) fuel efficient jetta diesel.

Btw, with 5,000 mile oil change intervals with synthetic, your Corrola should live a long life IMO.


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## MJJ (Aug 7, 2016)

If there a dryer outlet in the garage, you can jimmy something if you’re careful.


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## GDN (Oct 30, 2017)

There is also the solution of combining two 110 legs, as long as they are from different phases. https://www.quick220.com/-A220-20D.html

Talked about in this thread as well - https://teslaownersonline.com/threads/120v-at-20amp-charming-model-3.7071/post-109315


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## MJJ (Aug 7, 2016)

GDN said:


> There is also the solution of combining two 110 legs, as long as they are from different phases. https://www.quick220.com/-A220-20D.html
> 
> Talked about in this thread as well - https://teslaownersonline.com/threads/120v-at-20amp-charming-model-3.7071/post-109315


Ha! And I thought my suggestion was dicey! Sure, it can work, but...

Fortunately, as a fireman, he never sees the results of sketchy home wiring schemes 🤣


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## PNWmisty (Aug 19, 2017)

lacofdfireman said:


> Well super bummed as this is not going to be a reality for me for a year or two. We just sold our home because the market is high where we live and I'm thinking we are going to see a correction in the next year or two. We just signed a year lease to rent a house and The house I live in the power panel is on the complete opposite side of the house away from the garage. I figured if the panel was on the outside of the garage it would we easy to run a 50amp service inside the garage but jo way I'll get permission to pull power all the way around the house. Plus I'm sure it would be very expansive. So I'll just have to wait until we decide when and where to build our house in a year or two. Bummer. The thought of commuting in a Tesla are super appealing to me. But it's going to have to wait.


The savings on fuel and maintenance in your situation would likely pay for a new charging circuit. And, while I'm not a fan of 120V charging for efficiency reasons, as Melinda pointed out, it can be a practical solution for some situations. I still think a Long Range EV makes sense in your situation, in part because you will arrive at work (and home) feeling much more rested. In part due to the relaxing nature of travel by Auto Pilot but also due to the lower amount of low-frequency rumble caused by internal combustion engines and no chance of small amounts of carbon monoxide from your engine seeping into the cabin (as has been found on a number of modern ICE vehicles).

With the kind of miles you do, an EV will save a lot of money and emissions that cause global warming. If you have destnation charging on either end of your commute, Supercharging will be short, painless and inexpensive.


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## PNWmisty (Aug 19, 2017)

MJJ said:


> Ha! And I thought my suggestion was dicey! Sure, it can work, but...
> 
> Fortunately, as a fireman, he never sees the results of sketchy home wiring schemes 🤣


Of course, there's nothing "sketchy" about combining two 120V circuits to get 240V as long as it's done properly.


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## lacofdfireman (Mar 27, 2019)

Thanks everyone. I’m definitely not giving up on this but need to figure out how best to make it work. The laundry is upstairs and nowhere near the garage. I’m not sure I want to play around with wiring up 2 120v outlets on a rental house either and charging via a 110 outlet probably won’t work just because ther are times when I get home and will turn around ad head back to work in less than 24hrs. Don’t think even at 24hrs you’ll get a full charge via 110 outlet would ya?


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## lacofdfireman (Mar 27, 2019)

Also I was looking up my local Superchargers to see how close I am to one here in St. George, UT and on the website it show the price as “Free”. Is this possible that they don’t charge for a Supercharger?


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## garsh (Apr 4, 2016)

lacofdfireman said:


> I'm not sure I want to play around with wiring up 2 120v outlets on a rental house either


There's a product available that handles this automatically and safely. You plug it into two outlets, and it confirms that they're on different legs before supplying 240v at the output.

https://www.quick220.com/220_catalog/voltage-converters.html


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## garsh (Apr 4, 2016)

lacofdfireman said:


> Also I was looking up my local Superchargers to see how close I am to one here in St. George, UT and on the website it show the price as "Free".


What "website" were you looking at?

Plugshare shows the parking lot itself to be free, but that doesn't mean that charging is free.
https://www.plugshare.com/location/53632


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## garsh (Apr 4, 2016)

lacofdfireman said:


> Don't think even at 24hrs you'll get a full charge via 110 outlet would ya?


Assuming roughly 5 mph charging rate, that would add 120 miles.


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## MelindaV (Apr 2, 2016)

lacofdfireman said:


> Also I was looking up my local Superchargers to see how close I am to one here in St. George, UT and on the website it show the price as "Free". Is this possible that they don't charge for a Supercharger?


the supercharger rates are only available from the in-car map. here's St George:


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## lacofdfireman (Mar 27, 2019)

MelindaV said:


> the supercharger rates are only available from the in-car map. here's St George:
> 
> View attachment 24221


Thank you. Is there a way you could get a couple others for me also so I can see how they compare. I think my stops would most likely be there 3-4 areas along my route.

Primm, NV
Baker, CA
Yermo, Ca 
Barstow, Ca

I'd love to see what the rates are at those areas

Also been watching some YouTube videos and there have been a few saying that Supercharging your battery is one of the fastest ways to degrade your battery. They say it charges so fast it boils your battery causing damage over time. Also charging to 100% or getting it below 100% also kills your battery. So curious how this all plays into a long commute like I have. Are these cars built for more longevity if city driven or highway driven. I know typically for an ICE car freeway miles are always easier on the car than city driving. Not sure if is Tesla would be the same.

Thanks everyone for the education. I'm enjoying learning about this possibility. I think the Tesla would add a safety to my commute that the ICE car doesn't have.


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## MelindaV (Apr 2, 2016)

lacofdfireman said:


> Thank you. Is there a way you could get a couple others for me also so I can see how they compare. I think my stops would most likely be there 3-4 areas along my route.
> 
> Primm, NV
> Baker, CA
> ...


You can charge to 100%, but you don't want to do that and let it sit. So if charging at home, you want to time it so it completes around the time you plan to leave. As far as using the superchargers, there are commercial teslas that have been using the superchargers to charge to 100% at least once (if not twice) a day for multiple years and still going strong. The Tesla batteries and associated software are quite good at protecting themselves from damage.
If I were to guess if only driving it locally or only driving it long distances would be better in the long run, I kinda think the long distance would be better. (only speculating though).

NV is by the minute, while UT and CA are by the kWh (because NV does not permit resell of energy), so it is a little difficult to do a straight comparison, but Tesla has gotten the per minute pricing to be as close/fair as possible to the per kWh pricing stations. But that said, you will not want to use Primm to charge past around 80%, as the taper will slow the charge to a trickle and you will be paying significantly more (in other words, you want to time your supercharger stops to take advantage of charging a near empty battery, and charge just long enough to comfortably get to the next charger to make the most of your time, or $ in the case of the per minute states)


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## Love (Sep 13, 2017)

Just to add that in the above screen grabs @MelindaV has graciously provided, the two rates in the Nevada example are for: 
- below 60kW ($0.14/min) 
- above 60kW ($0.27/min)


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## PNWmisty (Aug 19, 2017)

lacofdfireman said:


> Also been watching some YouTube videos and there have been a few saying that Supercharging your battery is one of the fastest ways to degrade your battery. They say it charges so fast it boils your battery causing damage over time.


The Model 3 has MUCH more effective battery cooling due to the design of the battery pack vs. Model S and X. And there were Model S and X that have been fleet cars, always on the road and SC'ing, that have had excellent longevity, well beyond the engine/transmission is an ICE car. The best cost/benefit ratio for an EV is big miles because you get to take advantage of the long life drivetrain, lack of maintenance, etc. and you can cost the higher purchase price against all that (including more gas savings). Tesla put all they learned from the Roadster into the Model S and all they learned from the Model S into the Model 3.



> Also charging to 100% or getting it below 100% also kills your battery. So curious how this all plays into a long commute like I have. Are these cars built for more longevity if city driven or highway driven. I know typically for an ICE car freeway miles are always easier on the car than city driving. Not sure if is Tesla would be the same.


The Long Range RWD Model 3 (the one best suited to your requirements) has an 8-year, 120,000 mile powertrain warranty (includes the battery). I know you would blow through 120,000 miles in the first three years but, with your usage, you can expect it to continue to provide reliable service way, way beyond that. As to city/hwy wear/tear, I would venture the best longevity would be achieved with a car that tooled around everywhere at a steady 50 mph. But you are correct, the wear/tear ratio between city/hwy is much more even on a Tesla due to regen braking and the fact that EV's don't need to shift in city traffic. As speeds increase above 50 mph, the battery is working progressively harder the faster you go since aerodynamic drag increases with the square of the speed. So while I think it would be easy to get at least one million if not 2 or 3 million miles out of a Model 3 battery/motor/drivetrain going a constant 50 mph, the faster you go the more wear and charge cycles the battery will experience. A good speed for maximizing time and efficiency on that route would be to cruise along at a nice relaxing 65 mph and enjoy the ride. That said, I don't see a problem with cruising at 75-80 other than your range will drop, you will need an extra SC stop and the battery wear will be proportional to the energy consumed. But batteries don't need to be babied to have a very long life.



> Thanks everyone for the education. I'm enjoying learning about this possibility. I think the Tesla would add a safety to my commute that the ICE car doesn't have.


The best and most safe solution would be to move closer to your place of work. But the second-best solution is a Tesla Model 3! 
And don't forget to order it with Auto-Pilot!


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## garsh (Apr 4, 2016)

lacofdfireman said:


> Also been watching some YouTube videos and there have been a few saying that Supercharging your battery is one of the fastest ways to degrade your battery. They say it charges so fast it boils your battery causing damage over time. Also charging to 100% or getting it below 100% also kills your battery. So curious how this all plays into a long commute like I have.


It sounds like you may have watched some videos that are over-stating the effects. It's true that all of these behaviors will "damage" a battery a little bit more than average, but the effects on a Tesla are not very noticeable. Tesla's current battery chemistry is very good at dealing with these charging issues with minimal degradation, and their active cooling system is very, very good at keeping the battery cool enough that supercharging shouldn't cause much harm either.

Here are the results of a study of Tesla Model S battery degradation. Notice that even cars with 250,000 km show very little degradation (reference):










Here's a good article about a Model S taxi that was pretty heavily abused. Tesloop put about 17,000 miles per month on the car, supercharging to 100% most of the time. Battery degradation was only 6% at the 194,000 mile mark, and about 22% at 324,000 miles. So these sorts of charging "abuses" will result in more degradation, and hopefully this article gives you a better idea of what that degradation is like in the worst case.

https://www.teslarati.com/tesloop-tesla-model-s-400k-miles-battery-maintenance-cost/


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## Guest (Apr 1, 2019)

I haven’t bothered to watch the hater Youtube vid you speak of. Nor should you believe the Kool-Aid folks here saying that you can charge to 100% as often as you like because some commercial owners are deploying the 100% SOC strategy and the fact that the thermal management system on the 3 is superior over the S/X (which it actually is) yadda yadda........ In fact, Teslaloop has already proven that the quickest way to shorten your battery life by 50% is to supercharge your pack to 100% often. JB's BMS and battery chem is no doubt the best overall balance between battery cycle life, manufacturing cost, C rate, performance (as it relates to how quickly you can pull electrons from the pack for ludicrous acceleration) however, it can’t fix stupid. 

Good-luck !


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## Love (Sep 13, 2017)




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## lacofdfireman (Mar 27, 2019)

PNWmisty said:


> The Model 3 has MUCH more effective battery cooling due to the design of the battery pack vs. Model S and X. And there were Model S and X that have been fleet cars, always on the road and SC'ing, that have had excellent longevity, well beyond the engine/transmission is an ICE car. The best cost/benefit ratio for an EV is big miles because you get to take advantage of the long life drivetrain, lack of maintenance, etc. and you can cost the higher purchase price against all that (including more gas savings). Tesla put all they learned from the Roadster into the Model S and all they learned from the Model S into the Model 3.
> 
> The Long Range RWD Model 3 (the one best suited to your requirements) has an 8-year, 120,000 mile powertrain warranty (includes the battery). I know you would blow through 120,000 miles in the first three years but, with your usage, you can expect it to continue to provide reliable service way, way beyond that. As to city/hwy wear/tear, I would venture the best longevity would be achieved with a car that tooled around everywhere at a steady 50 mph. But you are correct, the wear/tear ratio between city/hwy is much more even on a Tesla due to regen braking and the fact that EV's don't need to shift in city traffic. As speeds increase above 50 mph, the battery is working progressively harder the faster you go since aerodynamic drag increases with the square of the speed. So while I think it would be easy to get at least one million if not 2 or 3 million miles out of a Model 3 battery/motor/drivetrain going a constant 50 mph, the faster you go the more wear and charge cycles the battery will experience. A good speed for maximizing time and efficiency on that route would be to cruise along at a nice relaxing 65 mph and enjoy the ride. That said, I don't see a problem with cruising at 75-80 other than your range will drop, you will need an extra SC stop and the battery wear will be proportional to the energy consumed. But batteries don't need to be babied to have a very long life.
> 
> ...


Thanks for all this information. All good stuff. But no I'll never live in California again. I've been commuting over 10 years and will retire in 8. I wonder if I bought a M3 LR if I could make it last that long. That would be approx 320k miles. I typically buy a new car about every 150k miles. But I buy junker cars that all I ever do is change the oil, brakes and tires. Typically Honda Civic's but my current car is a 2016 Toyota Corolla "S" and I've hated all 110k miles I put into it. It's super uncomfortable. I like the Civics way better. But I think I'd really like the M3. Would I be better off with the Dual Motor or just the LR model?


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## Foxtrotter (Sep 12, 2017)

You will find the LR RWD 3 with AP and FSD super comfortable for your commute. There are, I believe, lots of us who expect these cars to be very long-lived and there are S's that have reached the sort of mileage that you are talking about. As far as dual motor vs RWD, both LR, its up to your taste and dollar. 4wd is useful if you need to deal with a fair amount of snow. Otherwise the RWD is a fast car that handles beautifully in everyday driving.


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## GDN (Oct 30, 2017)

I think this is where you just need a good spreadsheet (I love spreadsheets) or a good yellow tablet would work well too. Estimate the cost to add a charging solution at each end. You don't require WC's at $500 a piece, you could get away with a 14-50 plug and just carry your UMC with you. It comes included with the car or you could purchase a second one to leave at each charging location, $300. Either way estimate what it would cost to install your charging infrastructure. If you have that at each end, you only need one stop each direction at a SC for 30 minutes to easily make the trip. 

Then compare the cost of the LR RWD car. For good savings, even look at used ones. There are people selling their first car wanting to trade up to the AWD, or Performance. The RWD is more than you need and tons of power and fun, at the best economy of the line. It might save you $10 to $15K going used. Then look at the safety you'll have, the best rating the government has ever given, and the enjoyment of driving a kick ass car with a great stereo for the journey. If the 3 follows the S, one car should last you til retirement. It'll be one of the highest milage 3's, it'll be great feed back for Tesla and you'll have had some of the best several hundred thousand miles you can have. You'll have a higher bill for tires, but never another oil change, stop for gasoline nor the other typical car breakdown's you could encounter. 

In the end you have to be comfortable with it, but you've come to the forum with thousands of us that drive this car, most of us truly love or at least really like this car and we've found ways to make it work for us when we didn't think it would. So don't expect us to just say - thanks for looking at the 3, happy life. Nope we are going to help you find a way to get in a 3 yourself.


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## garsh (Apr 4, 2016)

lacofdfireman said:


> Would I be better off with the Dual Motor or just the LR model?


The rear-wheel drive Model 3s are more efficient, which I think is going to be of most importance to you.


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## garsh (Apr 4, 2016)

Foxtrotter said:


> 4wd is useful if you need to deal with a fair amount of snow.


My obligatory response  :

Worried About Snow? Don't Dismiss Getting Rear Wheel Drive!


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## PNWmisty (Aug 19, 2017)

lacofdfireman said:


> Would I be better off with the Dual Motor or just the LR model?


We have one of each and the LR RWD really is the better car for travel. Snow/Ice is not really a good reason to get the AWD unless you have a need to regularly climb steep icy roads (much steeper than a typical mountain highway) or you need to drive on unplowed roads with more than 5" of snow.

The RWD car is lighter, has a significantly longer range, charges more miles per hour and consumes less electricity. The handling is about the same with perhaps a slight edge to the RWD with it's perfect weight distribution. The only time the AWD shows an advantage is during hard acceleration on wet or slippery surfaces and the fact that it can accelerate faster. However, the RWD is so fast in the real world that advantage largely goes to waste.

I would only buy the AWD if it was primarily for local use.


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## lacofdfireman (Mar 27, 2019)

Well snow has never been an issue for the 10+ years I’ve been driving. I’ll be super happy with the RWD M3 I have no doubt.


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## mswlogo (Oct 8, 2018)

It depends on your cost for electricity. 

At my cost of $0.25 per kWh it’s close to the same cost to run as a 32 mpg car in winter with AWD assume gas is around $2.19 a gallon. 

With RWD it’s probably 40 mpg in Winter and in summer it will be about 60 mpg (to me this is a min of what you need for it to be cost effective). 

But my understanding is CA electricity rates are even higher ($32 kWh). But gas might be respectively higher too.


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## PNWmisty (Aug 19, 2017)

mswlogo said:


> It depends on your cost for electricity.
> 
> At my cost of $0.25 per kWh it's close to the same cost to run as a 32 mpg car in winter with AWD assume gas is around $2.19 a gallon.
> 
> With RWD it's probably 40 mpg in Winter and in summer it will be about 60 mpg (to me this is a min of what you need for it to be cost effective).


I can't figure out why you're paying $0.25/kWh! Highway robbery. I would be getting solar panels ASAP! The national average is only $0.12/kWh.
And gas at $2.19/gallon? That was last month, LOL! Most stations around here are advertising over $3.00/gal. for regular and it's been going up each week significantly. Most cars with the performance of a LR RWD Model 3 are going to require premium so not really an apples to apples comparison.

Also, when you compare the Winter "cost to run", you have to realize a "32 MPG car in winter" doesn't exist in AWD because just as your numbers include every possible loss or inefficiency for the EV, gas cars don't get their EPA ratings either in such conditions. Why do you not include oil and filter replacements in your cost to run numbers? And the OP, with his nearly 400 mile commute, is going to have MUCH better winter Wh/mile figures than your misleading ones from a usage pattern of short drives and much less favorable climate.

The bottom line, in the OP's situation, is a LR RWD Model 3 is going to offer HUGE operational savings over anything comparable in gas. And, perhaps more importantly, will allow the commute to be accomplished with much less fatigue upon arrival. There will also be less scheduling of periodic maintenance which is always welcome for someone commuting such a long distance because those oil change intervals come up f-a-s-t!.


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## mswlogo (Oct 8, 2018)

PNWmisty said:


> I can't figure out why you're paying $0.25/kWh! Highway robbery. I would be getting solar panels ASAP! The national average is only $0.12/kWh.
> And gas at $2.19/gallon? That was last month, LOL! Most stations around here are advertising over $3.00/gal. for regular and it's been going up each week significantly. Most cars with the performance of a LR RWD Model 3 are going to require premium so not really an apples to apples comparison.
> 
> Also, when you compare the Winter "cost to run", you have to realize a "32 MPG car in winter" doesn't exist in AWD because just as your numbers include every possible loss or inefficiency for the EV, gas cars don't get their EPA ratings either in such conditions. Why do you not include oil and filter replacements in your cost to run numbers? And the OP, with his nearly 400 mile commute, is going to have MUCH better winter Wh/mile figures than your misleading ones from a usage pattern of short drives and much less favorable climate.
> ...


My kWh/mi are probably better than most folks. I'm getting 272 Wh/mi lifetime (Winter, Northeast, AWD). Most people are getting much worse. Of course a RWD further south will do better.

I do have Solar Panels. But it's sized before EV Charging and the EV will go well over. I can't enlarge it or I would lose huge credits I get on the existing system.

OP Mentioned a commute from CA to UT. CA has some of the highest electricity costs in the Nation. Even higher than mine.
Super Charger rates in California are $0.32 kWh (Tesla seems to go for the highest rate in the state).
His home charging rates might be reasonable, I have no idea, surely they will be less.

A lot of folks pay way more than $0.12 kWh

I don't like seeing folks mislead in what the real savings are. I love EV and there are other benefits besides cost of ownership. But let's run some realistic numbers for him.

And for the record a Lexus AWD Hybrid gets 30 mpg Highway 33 City.

A Lexus RWD Hybrid gets 45 mpg cost About 7 cents a mile on fuel.

CA Super Charger is $0.32 kWh
UT Super Charger is $0.22 kWh (guessing based on old rates and new increase)
NV Super Charger is $0.22 kWh (guessing based on old rates and new increase)

So let's average that to $0.26 kWh (He WILL be using the SC on that commute).

Let's say he get's 230 Wh/mi average Model 3 RWD (my guess is he'll be driving that commute on the fast side). He might do better. But he will use some heat in Winter.

Now add charging overhead which is about 92% efficient. Now the cost is 250 Wh/mi.

A Model 3 RWD (getting 250 Wh/mi with charging overhead) charging at $.26 kWh SC is about 7 cents a mile.

Where exactly is his HUGE savings?

There are parts of the country that you can have huge savings. And he will save when he stays in UT and charges at home. But he won't save much on his huge commute and high electricity rates, which was his primary comment.

Of course he'll save over his existing car. But that's not what you should be comparing. I'm comparing a new luxury hybrid that will cost similar without tax credits.

To Tesla's credit, the fact they are evening competing with a luxury hybrid with high electricity rates and low gasoline rates is impressive, and it will surely keep getting better.


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## Long Ranger (Jun 1, 2018)

mswlogo said:


> A Model 3 RWD (getting 250 kWh/mi with charging overhead) charging at $.26 kWh SC is about 7 cents a mile.


OK, but you're assuming 100% supercharging in that calculation (and of course you meant 250 Wh/mi not 250 kWh/mi) .

If we assume that each trip will be roughly 2/3 local charging and 1/3 supercharging, then we end up with 1/3 at Utah rates, 1/3 at LA rates, and 1/3 at supercharger rates.

Current rates in St George, UT are $.081/kWh. LA is the big variable, with the fire station charging situation unclear. For residential households, SCE has an EV owner time-of-use plan that averages about $.125/kWh from 9pm to 4pm. If OP can get that plan, then overall average electric rate is (.081+.125+.26)/3 or $.155/kWh, and under 4 cents per mile.


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## MelindaV (Apr 2, 2016)

mswlogo said:


> CA Super Charger is $0.32 kWh
> UT Super Charger is $0.22 kWh (guessing based on old rates and new increase)
> NV Super Charger is $0.22 kWh (guessing based on old rates and new increase)


I posted the actual costs for the Superchargers @lacofdfireman mentioned he'd be going thru on the previous page of posts, so you can see the actual (current) rates


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## mswlogo (Oct 8, 2018)

Long Ranger said:


> OK, but you're assuming 100% supercharging in that calculation (and of course you meant 250 Wh/mi not 250 kWh/mi) .
> 
> If we assume that each trip will be roughly 2/3 local charging and 1/3 supercharging, then we end up with 1/3 at Utah rates, 1/3 at LA rates, and 1/3 at supercharger rates.
> 
> Current rates in St George, UT are $.081/kWh. LA is the big variable, with the fire station charging situation unclear. For residential households, SCE has an EV owner time-of-use plan that averages about $.125/kWh from 9pm to 4pm. If OP can get that plan, then overall average electric rate is (.081+.125+.26)/3 or $.155/kWh, and under 4 cents per mile.


I really don't care what the "averages" are. Mine are double the "averages" (Home and SC) and him being on the road in CA he should expect it to not be so cheap.
I think you are really stretching that 2/3 of his round trip will be local and cheap charging.
The first leg leaving can surely be cheap charging at home. Without knowing what is available at his destination I'm not going to be so over the top optimistic.


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## mswlogo (Oct 8, 2018)

MelindaV said:


> I posted the actual costs for the Superchargers @lacofdfireman mentioned he'd be going thru on the previous page of posts, so you can see the actual (current) rates


Thanks.

Wow, St George UT is high too. My average was probably close.
You estimated 300 wh/mi, I said way more optimistically 230 wh/mi.

Like the prior response. A lot will depend on what's available at his destination.

Looks like NV is based on time. On average it's gonna be similarly expensive. It's worked out to be the way on average. And you're gonna have a hard time, timing it perfect to get the best deal all the time. Probably avg around $0.20 kWh.


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## Frully (Aug 30, 2018)

lacofdfireman said:


> Well super bummed as this is not going to be a reality for me for a year or two. We just sold our home because the market is high where we live and I'm thinking we are going to see a correction in the next year or two. We just signed a year lease to rent a house and The house I live in the power panel is on the complete opposite side of the house away from the garage. I figured if the panel was on the outside of the garage it would we easy to run a 50amp service inside the garage but jo way I'll get permission to pull power all the way around the house. Plus I'm sure it would be very expansive. So I'll just have to wait until we decide when and where to build our house in a year or two. Bummer. The thought of commuting in a Tesla are super appealing to me. But it's going to have to wait.


That said -- There are more options than charging from a 50A circuit with a wall charger. With a little hackery electrica-fu you can make a badass extension cord to get power from across the house without a permanent install. I manage on 240v 16A which gives about 18mph charging. Far from maximum but still realistic.

Edit: Anecdotally I pay about 1/3 the price of gasoline if home charging @ 12c/kwh...and about 2/3 the price of gasoline supercharging.


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## garsh (Apr 4, 2016)

mswlogo said:


> Without knowing what is available at his destination I'm not going to be so over the top optimistic.


That is somewhat key. If he can convince somebody to install destination charging at work, that really makes Model 3 ownership practical for this commute. And it's not just a matter of keeping electricity costs down by avoiding extra supercharging. The main benefit is that the car will be charging while he's at work, so he doesn't have to waste additional _time_ at a supercharger during the trip home.

Even if he would have to pay for the install himself, it might be worth the cost.


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## ishabazz (Mar 9, 2019)

This isn’t too far from my use case mileage-wise. I commute 120 miles a day , 5 days a week driving from the Inland Empire to Santa Monica and back. From what bits of data I have gathered here and there, the LR RWD is perfect for this, so that’s what I ordered. I’m planning to take delivery in a about a week and then be fairly active with updates on how it’s holding up. Hopefully that data is helpful to other folks with high mileage commutes.


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