# Munro day session on EVs



## bwilson4web (Mar 4, 2019)

Source: EV Conference - Revealing Secrets of Tesla Model 3, BMW i3 and Chevy Bolt Tickets, Fri, Jun 21, 2019 at 8:30 AM | Eventbrite

_Calling all automotive engineers looking for objective technical information about today's leading electric vehicles (EVs). Munro & Associates, world leaders in the Lean Design® methodology, teardown benchmarking and design optimization, is hosting an Electric Vehicle Technical Briefing on Friday, June 21 at its world headquarters in Auburn Hills, Mich. During the event, the Munro team will present an engineering comparison of four leading EVs: the Tesla Model 3; the BMW i3, the Chevy Bolt; and the Jaguar I-PACE.
. . ._​
I've got the interest and the funds but time could be a problem. Would there be anyone interested and available to attend this Auburn Hills event?

For me, it is 698 miles, 14 hours, 10 min, driving with 7 stops and overnight at a Marriott. I would have to bring wife and her dogs or arrange for a house sitter.

Bob Wilson


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## bwilson4web (Mar 4, 2019)

I’ve got my ticket and room reserved. If any interest in a conference report, PM me and we can do a deal.

Bob Wilson


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## bwilson4web (Mar 4, 2019)

Source: EV Conference - Revealing Secrets of Tesla Model 3, BMW i3 and Chevy Bolt

_Calling all automotive engineers looking for objective technical information about today's leading electric vehicles (EVs). Munro & Associates, world leaders in the Lean Design® methodology, teardown benchmarking and design optimization, is hosting an Electric Vehicle Technical Briefing on Friday, June 21 at its world headquarters in Auburn Hills, Mich. During the event, the Munro team will present an engineering comparison of four leading EVs: the Tesla Model 3; the BMW i3, the Chevy Bolt; and the Jaguar I-PACE.
The tour of the Munro Benchmarking Investigation, Innovation & Implementation Center will provide an Engineering deep dive of the most advanced electric vehicles and technologies in the market today. Munro will also provide an in-depth view into how you can analyze products and perform your own reengineering.

The main focus will be on the EV "Big 3" Motors, Batteries and Electronics; however, there will be a new technology review with insight into the engineering and designs of some of the other innovative vehicles on the road today. The Tesla 3 will be compared to the BMW i3 and the Chevy Bolt.

Unlike many "Power Point Conferences" the parts of all three of the vehicles will be laid out on tables and Munro "A Frames" with knowledgeable Munro Engineers to provide a detailed description of the key take-ways from each part of the car and answer questions.

For the Jaguar I-PACE, there will be a hoist review to discuss the I-PACE and its electric motor.

EXTRA! Munro has also invited an independent investigator from Tesloop who will share important aspects of EVs that are rarely discussed; life expectancy and maintenance of an EV. Tesloop has ALL the documentation on the durability of the Tesla product.

This is a must attend event for all EV Engineers!
$199 which includes:_

_An overview of: motors, batteries, and electronics the "EV Big 3"_
_A technology review with insight into the engineering and designs of some of the other innovative vehicles on the road today_
_A tour of Munro's Benchmarking Investigation, Innovation & Implementation Center_
_The opportunity to participate in an engineering deep dive of today's most advanced EVs and technologies_
_An in-depth view into how Munro analyzes products and performs reverse engineering._
_Timing, Location & Agenda:
Friday, June 21st, 2019
Munro & Associates
1140 Centre Road Auburn Hills, MI 48326
8:30 to 9:00. Registration, Coffee & Donuts
9:00 to 9:15 Welcome and logistics
9:15 to 9:45 Who is Munro? How do we get our Numbers?
9:45 to 10:15 Battery Debrief
10:15 to 10:45 Electronics Debrief
10:45 to 11:15 Electric Motor Debrief
11:15 to 12:00 Long Range Tesla Data; Full data on Tesla vehicles some with 380,000 MILES! BTW No Maintenance Issues!!!
12:00 to 13:00 Lunch
13:00 to 15:30 Group Breakout, On-The-Floor, Around The Parts Review;
I- PACE Hoist Review, Side-By-Side Discussions At 5 Teardown Stations To Discuss All The Vehicle Components
15:30 to 16:30 Social Hour, Tours of Other Vehicles at Munro and Networking_​
If you have specific interest or questions, post them here and I'll take them with me to the conference.

Bob Wilson


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## bwilson4web (Mar 4, 2019)

*EXECUTIVE SUMMARY (V00.1)*

*Best $200 engineering conference ever* - Munro and Associates shutdown their facility for a day and had at least 25 skilled engineers and technologist presenting, answering technical questions, and all of the tear-down cars and parts open for inspection and photos. Tesla does not sell an illustrated parts breakdown but Munro has one . . . with real parts. Counting the preparation, very skilled Munro staff, and facilities, it probably cost over $500k to produce. The only savings is Munro may have avoided funding staff trips to other conferences (or that might have been part of the plan.) Seat limited to ~100, raw revenue of $20,000 probably only covered the catering and swag. I would go again.
*Focus on Munro consulting services* - Munro and Associates has a very deep bench and expertise in manufacturing excellency that continues to grow. They preserve client data but the lessons learned becomes part of their skill set. A Munro consultancy time is pretty steep but well worth it in labor, parts, and quality. You don't have to hire an expensive experienced engineer because you can rent an exceptional engineering team from Munro. Caution, experience can be a double-edged sword (i.e., "You need a fuse box.") But at least their quiet departure doesn't become another 'Financial Times' hit piece over Tesla staff changes.
*Attendees* - What a great mix of engineers and technologists. Of course there were some who didn't really understand why they were sent (i.e., to get them OUT of the office.) Others trying to get the Cliff Notes for one of Munro's detailed, $70-100k, reports. My favorites were the 'good ole' boys' who came just to hang out with each other and swap war stories. Sad to say, I skipped the social hour because I had an experiment to finish and being retired, I'm not 'in their network.' I'll have more details about myself in this section.
*Cannonball practice* - The 787 711 mile 14:18 (hh:mm) trip up and 693 mile 15:30 return, validated my Tesla long distance driving model. It also revealed insights needed for even longer distance, affordable Tesla driving.
Feel free to post questions and I will maintain a change log in the first post with links to subsections.

Bob Wilson

Change log (YYYY/MM/DD):
2019/06/23 Baseline executive summary
2019/06/24 Updated "Cannonball practice" with metrics and route map
2019/06/30 Updated distance and times from GPS recorded data


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## $ Trillion Musk (Nov 5, 2016)

Regarding your long distance drive, what should’ve been the minimum viable range to make your trip better, in your opinion?

Not sure if you can answer these questions... what’s the manufacturing year/month of the latest Model 3 that they’ve analyzed what has changed since prior tear downs? For instance, is there evidence of cost/efficiency improvements in welding & glue of the body assembly? Has Tesla added more sound dampening material? How much more could Tesla save per Model 3 if their manufacturing efficiency matched that of Toyota?

Thanks for volunteering your time and technical expertise!


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## bwilson4web (Mar 4, 2019)

*Best $200 engineering conference ever*

Munro and Associates shutdown their facility for a day and had at least 25 skilled engineers and technologist presenting, answering technical questions, and all of the tear-down cars and parts open for inspection and photos. Tesla does not sell an illustrated parts breakdown but Munro has one . . . with real parts. Counting the preparation, very skilled Munro staff, and facilities, it probably cost over $500k to produce. The only savings is Munro may have avoided funding staff trips to other conferences (or that might have been part of the plan.) Seat limited to ~100, raw revenue of $20,000 probably only covered the catering and swag. I would go again.









My first photo was an attempt to get the URL for the speaker . . . it failed. Regardless, this is the synopsis:

_EXTRA! Munro has also invited an independent investigator from Tesloop who will share important aspects of EVs that are rarely discussed; life expectancy and maintenance of an EV. Tesloop has ALL the documentation on the durability of the Tesla product._​​These folks had a 16 year old who wanted a Tesla so they bought one and setup a shuttle service to and from Las Vegas that expanded to six Teslas. Then California sent a note that they could not use 'independent contract' drivers. Their drivers had to be employees so they closed it down.

They changed the business model to Tesla rental. Then Tesla changed the terms and conditions so 'Uber' and other commercial services could not use the SuperChargers . . . he confessed that he caused that change. He has a new scheme based on the $0.58/mi IRS rule but anticipates that rule also getting closed. I'm not so sure he has a good business model.

*Oh BOY! Hands on TOYS!!!*








Not a show for the non-technical or the "HOLD MY BEER! WATCH THIS!!" crowd.








How did Munro get a Tesla induction motor rotor?
























Hands do get lubricants and stuff on them so you need paper towels.

















The best illustrated parts breakdown is at Munro and associates:

































































They also have the BMW i3 BEV. I have the BMW i3-REx that has the engine:









Bob Wilson


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## bwilson4web (Mar 4, 2019)

*Focus on Munro consulting services*

Munro and Associates has a very deep bench and expertise in manufacturing excellency that continues to grow. They preserve client data but the lessons learned becomes part of their skill set. A Munro consultancy time is pretty steep but well worth it in labor, parts, and quality. You don't have to hire an expensive experienced engineer because you can rent an exceptional engineering team from Munro. Caution, experience can be a double-edged sword (i.e., "You need a fuse box.") But at least their quiet departure doesn't become another 'Financial Times' hit piece over staff changes.

Non-denominational, they have broad engineering expertise. Cars are just one subset. For example, this appears to be a pump and filter for a slurry with chunks. As the intake passed up, the solid matter falls into the inner cylinder to take a different path. My first guess is part of a waste water treatment plant.









This gives an example of the quality of engineering analysis found at Munro:

































​*ATTENTION: *​*I have sent a note to Munro & Associates asking permission to post these photos of pages from their handout, examples of the quality of their work. Contact Munro to negotiate a hardcopy.*​

































Sandy Munro spoke on _Autoline After Hours_ about meeting Dr. Edward Demming when Sandy worked at Ford. Demming gave him some wise words that led Sandy to making "Munro and Associates." Yet during the formal program, Sandy didn't 'Lord' this over us. But like me, he is a true "Quality Warrior." I would pickup the bar bill to spend an evening with Sandy. I just didn't have the time for the social hour.

Munro and Associates have good collection of design-to-cost and program management tools. They even teach how to put together what we called in GE, a "War Room." This is great for those who recognize the need. But these classical tools can easily be abused which means the buyer _MUST HAVE A CLUE_. You can't buy the character and commitment needed to successfully use them.

Bob Wilson


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## bwilson4web (Mar 4, 2019)

*Attendees*

What a great mix of engineers and technologists. Of course there were some who didn't really understand why they were sent (i.e., to get them OUT of the office.) Others trying to get the Cliff Notes for one of Munro's detailed, $70-100k, reports. My favorites were the 'good ole' boys' who came just to hang out with each other and swap war stories. Sad to say, I skipped the social hour because I had an experiment to finish and being retired, I'm not 'in their network.' I'll have more details about myself in this section.









This guest speaker didn't show up with hardcopy of his presentation. Although I admire his goals, I have little confidence in his business practices. You should never build a business on screwing someone else and he is no friend to Tesla. I would need private time with him to discuss a better approach, a 'win-win.' Right now, he is 'I win and Tesla loses.'

The first attendee I tried to chat with mentioned getting a Hummer and 'cold effects.' These are common EV hostile opinions. So I mentioned rumors of an EV Hummer but suggested it would just be a Tahoe with boxy fendors, raised, and knobby tires. I didn't mention that pre-bankruptcy, GM required the word "hybrid" embedded in the paint scheme and killing an excellent CUV hybrid I got to test drive in the snow.

About the cold, I shared that when we had a cold snap in Dixie with temperatures down to 16F, I drove my 2003 Prius to Georgia and back. I found the decrease in MPG paralleled with the temperature defined, air density. I added that both our BMW i3-REx and Tesla have a pre-conditioning that keeps the battery at an optimum temperature. Our EVs are like small huts connected to the grid for power needed to maintain a friendly temperature. He seemed impressed when I shared that I drove 786.8 mi to the conference and only $24.92 in SuperCharger costs.

With the exception of the old guys who'd worked together in the past, the 'youngsters' were sensitive about talking with others. I sensed they were almost paranoid about what they worked on and afraid talk with strangers. There was very little user involvement so I recommend the following:

Tags should show 'nickname' and 'organization'
For example, this is mine:








I'm "Bob" but they listed me by the formal, "Robert." Also, there is nothing showing I'm "Retired" which means I'm safe to talk with. The other icons do nothing to introduce me to strangers, a problem at this event. Notice I'm in old school engineering dress, pocket pen and glasses. When I asked about parking, their mentioned bringing a coat and I though 'do they want me in a shirt, tie, and business dress?' So I showed up in my last Dilbert shirt and changed in the parking lot to my normal dress.

So here is the swag bag thoughtfully labeled "BOB" but so too were all the others.








I didn't unwrap the pen (SWAG pens are notoriously unreliable) and also left the mini engineering log book in the wrapper because I brought:








My own clipboard with the data sheet for my drive up. Not shown, are the three Tesla charging pages I left with the Munro staff about optimum long distance travel.

I asked one of the Munro senior managers about how they got the HP numbers for the different cars. He said, 'We outsource that to local suppliers.' We then chatted about the EPA "Test Car Database" and I joked about how at Oklahoma State we used to say 'Engineering is pre-business.' In fact, Munro is not in the operations business but the 'how to build' business.

If I'd stayed for the social hour, I might have found the other four who drove there in Teslas. We could have gotten together so I could show them how I 'campout in the car' and discuss about using an RV park for L2 charging or taking an overnight nap.

Bob Wilson


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## bwilson4web (Mar 4, 2019)

*Cannonball practice*

The 787 711 mile 14:18 (hh:mm) trip up and 693 mile 15:30 return, validated my Tesla long distance driving model. It also revealed insights needed for even longer distance, affordable Tesla driving. So I had:

Hardcopy of ticket.
Annotated drive-up map with key metrics finished in the hotel room.
Model charts showing the optimum strategy (I gave to the staff team at the electronics table.)
So this is what I had on my clipboard:








The drive up I planned to use the Toledo SuperCharger. But as I got closer to Detroit, my fear of 'downtown traffic' led to an ad hoc change to take a western route. It turns out to have been a mistake.

Once in Detroit, I saw wide, broad, multilane roads without much traffic. Then I realized Detroit has been depopulated. The Dixie factories have replaced the Detroit factories so we have traffic jams on our recently paved, country roads. Meanwhile, the aging but relatively wide, multi-lane, Detroit streets are like turnpikes compared to traffic jams in Dixie.

On the return trip, I took "Telegraph Road" and made great time at ~50 mph. Shorter, it was a great way to get home:








It would have been a faster trip home except I used the Tesla trip planner on one leg.

The Tesla trip planner had a maximum charge at one SuperCharger . . . the slowest and most expensive approach. But it was late and I needed a nap. I set the iPhone alarm for a 1 hour charge and crawled in the back where the seats were down and stretched out on a pad for a nap. Another plan would have been to attend the social hour and take a nap in the Munro parking lot. But I would have been 2-3 hours late instead of 30 minutes. I won't use the Tesla trip planner again.

The Supercharger model uses the charging characteristics of my Standard Range Plus Model 3 to calculate block-to-block speed and costs:









Too frequent charger sessions are cheap but slows the trip because of the battery ramp-up. Too long on the charger and the taper delays getting back on the road and the cost goes up substantially:









This chart shows the overall flow:









So on the return trip, here is the route map and real world SuperCharger costs and speed:

















Driving back using Navigate on AutoPilot, I came across a truck with an almost painful, bright light on the cab, front bumper:








My first thought was it was to discourage tailgaters but if so, way wrong. The easiest way to avoid the blinding light is to follow the truck at the closest distance so the trailer blocks the light. But when I eventually passed the truck, I saw it was also a roadway aid as well as keeping passing traffic from pulling in too soon. Anti-tailgating was probably not on the menu. BTW, there is NHTSA regulations about not having 'blinding lights' aimed at following traffic.

Bob Wilson


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## bwilson4web (Mar 4, 2019)

$ Trillion Musk said:


> Regarding your long distance drive, what should've been the minimum viable range to make your trip better, in your opinion?


I chose the Standard Range Plus Model 3 because the smaller battery reduces weight giving it the highest mileage for all the Teslas. But when charging, the optimum battery range miles should be between 90-130 miles. Just won't drive past a SuperCharger with miles on the battery.

Also, I prefer to leave with 30-40 miles of reserve miles in the battery and track it during the drive. If half-way I'm losing miles, I'll backoff on the speed until the reserve miles remains constant. If the reserve miles increases or approaches the miles to the next charger, I speed up.

Arriving with 20 miles in the battery is great and 10 miles very, very nice. But over 30 miles of reserve range or even 40 miles is sad.

The SuperCharger density is high enough that with rare exceptions, we can stay in the sweet spot, SuperCharger-to-SuperCharger.



$ Trillion Musk said:


> Not sure if you can answer these questions... what's the manufacturing year/month of the latest Model 3 that they've analyzed what has changed since prior tear downs? For instance, is there evidence of cost/efficiency improvements in welding & glue of the body assembly? Has Tesla added more sound dampening material? How much more could Tesla save per Model 3 if their manufacturing efficiency matched that of Toyota?


Other than the induction motor rotor, I saw no evidence of a later model Tesla in their shop. No one has offered to pay for another analysis. But I did see an I-Pace and it remains disappointing. Worse, the presenter carries old school design rules which means 'Where is the Tesla grill?' and 'No OBD port' and 'No fuses.' This from someone half my age physically but already brain dead.

Bob Wilson


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## MelindaV (Apr 2, 2016)

bwilson4web said:


> Other than the induction motor rotor, I saw no evidence of a later model Tesla in their shop. No one has offered to pay for another analysis. But I did see an I-Pace and it remains disappointing. Worse, the presenter carries old school design rules which means 'Where is the Tesla grill?' and 'No OBD port' and 'No fuses.' This from someone half my age physically but already brain dead.


they first released public info on their teardown Feb 2018, so one of the first cars going to a non-employee (or one bought from an employee) - likely a VIN under 5000. IIRC, cars first started being delivered to non-employees late december 2017 - but at a trickle. The first non-employee here (prior Tesla owner, California delivery) was last week of 2017 and was VIN 228x.


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## bwilson4web (Mar 4, 2019)

I thought I'd shared a photo of the Monroney sticker for the car they disassembled:








It is dated "02/2018"

Bob Wilson


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## garsh (Apr 4, 2016)

bwilson4web said:


> My first photo was an attempt to get the URL for the speaker . . . it failed.


Actually, it was good enough.

http://bit.ly/tesloopmunro

And the direct link:

https://docs.google.com/presentatio...I5GTBqwXFv4TuZ8/edit#slide=id.g5a4c12cdb1_0_0


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## DMC-5180 (Sep 29, 2018)

MelindaV said:


> they first released public info on their teardown Feb 2018, so one of the first cars going to a non-employee (or one bought from an employee) - likely a VIN under 5000. IIRC, cars first started being delivered to non-employees late december 2017 - but at a trickle. The first non-employee here (prior Tesla owner, California delivery) was last week of 2017 and was VIN 228x.


VIN 6640


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## SAronian (Apr 4, 2019)

Great report Bob, thanks for sharing the event and trip, great fun.


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## TrevP (Oct 20, 2015)

Awesome report, thanks for posting it here!


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## manihiki (Jun 25, 2019)

bwilson4web said:


> *Focus on Munro consulting services*
> 
> Munro and Associates has a very deep bench and expertise in manufacturing excellency that continues to grow. They preserve client data but the lessons learned becomes part of their skill set. A Munro consultancy time is pretty steep but well worth it in labor, parts, and quality. You don't have to hire an expensive experienced engineer because you can rent an exceptional engineering team from Munro. Caution, experience can be a double-edged sword (i.e., "You need a fuse box.") But at least their quiet departure doesn't become another 'Financial Times' hit piece over staff changes.
> 
> ...


Hi, thanks for the great writeup! Can you give some overview or color around what they said (if anything) about the 'Side x Side comparison' slide you posted and if the takeaway on that slide was that the ipace technology is superior to the Tesla (given the 1 rating for ipace)? What do the "points" mean?

Also, can you give your thoughts on what the takeaways were in terms of how the various competitors compare? Are any players further ahead, and if so how far ahead, from a tech & cost perspective? Who is #2 and #3? How do Sandy and/or his employees seem to feel about how well the various players are positioned and who will win?

Thanks again!


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## bwilson4web (Mar 4, 2019)

manihiki said:


> . . . Can you give some overview or color around what they said (if anything) about the 'Side x Side comparison' slide you posted and if the takeaway on that slide was that the ipace technology is superior to the Tesla (given the 1 rating for ipace)? What do the "points" mean?


My impression was traditional auto engineering meets a spaceship from California. Now Munro is in the manufacturing optimization business with traditional 'war room' and CAD-to-cost software. Yet they were impressed by how many things Tesla did that others often found baffling. Examples are "There are no fuse boxes" "Model 3 lacks a front grill" and "There is no OBD port." Munro recognizes the savings but for many traditionalists, the Model 3 was baffling.

Munro's focus is on manufacturing, not operational performance, so they like the "hairpin" over the "winding laced" stators:








The hairpin stators have a few, large, copper wires that are welded as needed after installation. In contrast, the winding laced stators are actually bent and pressed into the laminations. For manufacturing, hairpin is simpler with less material but laced windings are a mature technology since the 19th century.

As for the I-Pace, the Munro technologists showing that one were disappointing. For example, I asked about that silly vent in the front grill that flows front air into a wedge duct on the hood and exhausts out the top of the hood. There is no heat exchanger in the flow. When I asked, the technologists tried to claim it was for pedestrian-accident mitigation. Since he didn't work for me, it was not my place to educate him.


manihiki said:


> Also, can you give your thoughts on what the takeaways were in terms of how the various competitors compare? Are any players further ahead, and if so how far ahead, from a tech & cost perspective? Who is #2 and #3? How do Sandy and/or his employees seem to feel about how well the various players are positioned and who will win?


I think this sums it up nicely:









Sandy Munro recognizes how far ahead the Model 3 is compared to anything out there. But he was preaching to a choir still singing the hymns to the last minister. It was pointed out that with the exception of the Model 3 and BMW i3, all of the other cars were traditional bodies and frames that had their ICE ripped out and replaced by motor/batteries. Their vehicle style and design rules are stuck in the 20th Century without the ability (and agility) to make a purpose-built EV.

Bob Wilson


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## manihiki (Jun 25, 2019)

bwilson4web said:


> My impression was traditional auto engineering meets a spaceship from California. Now Munro is in the manufacturing optimization business with traditional 'war room' and CAD-to-cost software. Yet they were impressed by how many things Tesla did that others often found baffling. Examples are "There are no fuse boxes" "Model 3 lacks a front grill" and "There is no OBD port." Munro recognizes the savings but for many traditionalists, the Model 3 was baffling.
> 
> Munro's focus is on manufacturing, not operational performance, so they like the "hairpin" over the "winding laced" stators:
> 
> ...


Thank you again, Bob! Feel free to post any more anecdotes or information they provided about the competitive positioning of the 3 co's if you think of anything, but this is all helpful!


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## Mike (Apr 4, 2016)

Thanks for this great information.

One observation: we share the same technique regarding monitoring the planned arrival (SOC %), with adjusting speed up or down as required to stay on the planned energy "howgozit".

I have been lamenting the day Tesla removed the "% battery remaining at next planned stop" icon that was always visible right next to the planned ETA.

I have sent Tesla, about once a month, a recommendation to bring back that icon as always showing as that prevents needless attention spent on drilling down into unique dialog boxes. 

Cheers.


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## bwilson4web (Mar 4, 2019)

Here is another review, almost a recitation of the same conference:





The 18 minute review would be a good use of time. If time is short, YouTube lets you accelerate playback up to 2x faster.

Bob Wilson


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## bwilson4web (Mar 4, 2019)

Mike said:


> One observation: we share the same technique regarding monitoring the planned arrival (SOC %), with adjusting speed up or down as required to stay on the planned energy "howgozit".


Whether SOC % or 'distance remaining', i would like to see a live 'count down'.

Today it gives a coarse warnings like "Stay under 70 mph to reach destination." Although technically correct, I'd prefer a realtime metric with finer details. Ideally one that lets me select how much 'reserve range' or 'SOC %' I want. In bad weather, I select a higher reserve. On top of a mountain headed down hill, a lower reserve.

Bob Wilson


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## DanSz (Feb 1, 2019)

“There are no fuse boxes.”

This surprises me, but then again, it doesn’t. It’s obvious why if one pauses to think about it. 

Obviously, there are no huge battery feeds in the car to smaller devices. All of the power is controlled at the MCU, which is fused somewhere, just not at a “box”.

How can they do this? Easy. Solid-state drivers and smart FETs inside the MCU are the fuses. There is no unswitched power. That’s the only way one can protect downstream wiring. Shorts to ground are detected and outputs are turned off. 

Typical automotive architecture has smaller modules that enter low power mode to preserve energy from the 12V battery. Tesla eschews this design by putting everything into the MCU and controlling it from there. That’s why heated seats are deactivated or features are easily disabled in software.

Thanks for the write up, Bob. You were literally there for your own benefit and not because a company sent you there. You are a true engineer.


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## DanSz (Feb 1, 2019)

Lol. Just noticed this:








Tsk tsk. For a company whose job is the find the details and itemize them...


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## DanSz (Feb 1, 2019)

bwilson4web said:


> ...
> This guest speaker didn't show up with hardcopy of his presentation. Although I admire his goals, I have little confidence in his business practices. You should never build a business on screwing someone else and he is no friend to Tesla. I would need private time with him to discuss a better approach, a 'win-win.' Right now, he is 'I win and Tesla loses.'


Could you elaborate on this a little more?



> The first attendee I tried to chat with mentioned getting a Hummer and 'cold effects.' These are common EV hostile opinions. So I mentioned rumors of an EV Hummer but suggested it would just be a Tahoe with boxy fendors, raised, and knobby tires. I didn't mention that pre-bankruptcy, GM required the word "hybrid" embedded in the paint scheme and killing an excellent CUV hybrid I got to test drive in the snow.


Sounds like old fashioned ICE engineers were sent to "check out the competition" and they had no idea what to make of it.



> With the exception of the old guys who'd worked together in the past, the 'youngsters' were sensitive about talking with others. I sensed they were almost paranoid about what they worked on and afraid talk with strangers.


Maybe it was more that they weren't comfortable socializing verbally. Maybe you needed to text them? I kid, I kid. ... No, I don't.



> I asked one of the Munro senior managers about how they got the HP numbers for the different cars. He said, 'We outsource that to local suppliers.'


Local dyno companies, most likely.



> We then chatted about the EPA "Test Car Database" and I joked about how at Oklahoma State we used to say 'Engineering is pre-business.' In fact, Munro is not in the operations business but the 'how to build' business.
> If I'd stayed for the social hour, I might have found the other four who drove there in Teslas. We could have gotten together so I could show them how I 'campout in the car' and discuss about using an RV park for L2 charging or taking an overnight nap.
> Bob Wilson


This was in my own backyard and I regret that I missed it. I probably could have made it no problem.


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## bwilson4web (Mar 4, 2019)

DanSz said:


> Could you elaborate on this a little more?


Let's take this offline.



DanSz said:


> Sounds like old fashioned ICE engineers were sent to "check out the competition" and they had no idea what to make of it.
> . . .
> This was in my own backyard and I regret that I missed it. I probably could have made it no problem.


Perhaps next year if they offer it again. Only we'll schedule either as a pre or post conference, "User Session." We'll invite local Tesla Owners to a party and let Sandy share this "User Session" for those curious about Tesla owners ... a chance to understand what 'cranks our tractor.' We can easily make our own technical program.

Bob Wilson


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## MelindaV (Apr 2, 2016)

bwilson4web said:


> Whether SOC % or 'distance remaining', i would like to see a live 'count down'.


have you used the Energy screen? it gives a pretty accurate look at what the SOC is projected to do for the current trip
the mileage across the bottom is relative to the length of the trip, but in this example, the battery hits 0% around 20 miles before the destination. but as you got closer, if you wanted a more tuned in distance, you could cancel the nav and restart it.


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## bwilson4web (Mar 4, 2019)

MelindaV said:


> have you used the Energy screen? it gives a pretty accurate look at what the SOC is projected to do for the current trip . . .


I have but not that particular screen. I've only seen the 5 min, 15 min, and 30 min graphs which are too noisy for my purpose. My car is getting a software update as I type this note so I'll hunt around later and see if I can bring that screen up. What you posted looks like what I need.

Bob Wilson


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## Mike (Apr 4, 2016)

MelindaV said:


> have you used the Energy screen? it gives a pretty accurate look at what the SOC is projected to do for the current trip
> the mileage across the bottom is relative to the length of the trip, but in this example, the battery hits 0% around 20 miles before the destination. but as you got closer, if you wanted a more tuned in distance, you could cancel the nav and restart it.
> View attachment 27165


Agreed.

However, the issue with this is.....its on a separate screen, requiring separate user inputs to view it (back and forth).

Having the % remaining icon always showing next to the ETA precludes having to switch screens.


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## Dr. J (Sep 1, 2017)

bwilson4web said:


> Here is another review, almost a recitation of the same conference:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


1.25 playback speed makes the delivery close to normal.  This fellow mixed his conference commentary with things he learned from watching other Sandy Munro videos, and therefore makes a mistake (I think) in asserting Munro sticks by his total pan of Tesla's manufacturing quality. I'm pretty sure Munro has come around and noted impressive improvements there. Did Munro offer an opinion of build quality (panel gaps, etc.) at the conference?

BTW, I found your commentary much more helpful than this guy's, but I appreciate you sharing it.


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## bwilson4web (Mar 4, 2019)

His presentation was fairly accurate from the Munro program. Memories can be selective and I briefly thought of making an audio record. But there was a video camera at the back and hoped we'd see it on YouTube.

While I was listening to the presentation, I was answering in my mind the 'issues' BUT I wrote my questions on the back of my trip log so I could chat with the Munro technologists. I prefer quiet, hallway conversations:

Jaguar I-Pace hood vent? - claimed to be a pedestrian mitigation structure
How were HP measured? - outsourced to other shops
Tesla bearing & nut wheel assembly - in 50F weather, the forward/reverse 'click' came back. So we looked at the mechanism to see if there were a wave spring or other mechanism to handle drivetrain lash.
_Tesla 2/3 battery, 50 kW, vs 75 kW?_ - not brought up
_Tesla SiC electrical characteristic vs Si?_ - not brought up as I can Google the answer
_Tesla radar, why 1 instead of 2?_ - they didn't have the radar unit on the electronics table
_Tesla binocular ranging?_ - beyond their investigation
_BMW mP x Wh?_ - this video addressed
Tesla + Maxwell, poly electrolyte? - the battery expert had no extra insights beyond press releases
Tesloop + micro-sleep - shared my experience as he claimed no one was 'sleeping' under AutoPilot
Tesloop + SuperCharger "rules" - I brought up that the SuperCharger terms and conditions have changed to block commercial and Uber use. He claimed responsibility.
If you weren't there, this video introduces but by no way substitutes for the program. Also, Sandy Munro did correct some earlier comments like the magnetic Halbach effect.

I got the impression Sandy may not have seen a more recent version but there was some buzz about Bob Lutz and his gap gauges.

Reading and listening to various summaries of the EV Conference is like interviewing the seven Indian blind men meeting an elephant. Each will have selective memories and experiences to share. Even you, the gentle listener/reader will have strengths and weaknesses. Regardless, I won't quarrel as much as fill-in what I remember.

Bob Wilson


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## Needsdecaf (Dec 27, 2018)

bwilson4web said:


> Whether SOC % or 'distance remaining', i would like to see a live 'count down'.
> 
> Today it gives a coarse warnings like "Stay under 70 mph to reach destination." Although technically correct, I'd prefer a realtime metric with finer details. Ideally one that lets me select how much 'reserve range' or 'SOC %' I want. In bad weather, I select a higher reserve. On top of a mountain headed down hill, a lower reserve.
> 
> Bob Wilson


Can the trip page on the energy display be used to show this? It shows a line of your consumption with predicted SOC at your destination and then a current line of how over / under you are to that target.

Also, thanks for the behind the scenes look. I chose a different engineering path but most all engineers can relate and nerd out to other engineering fields. Would have love to have attended this.


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## Mike (Apr 4, 2016)

Needsdecaf said:


> Can the trip page on the energy display be used to show this? It shows a line of your consumption with predicted SOC at your destination and then a current line of how over / under you are to that target.


It can/does.

The bee in my bonnet is that Tesla used to post the "predicted SOC at next destination" all the time, next to the ETA.

One look at that figure at the start of the trip and then comparing it from time to time via a cursory look while looking at the ETA told the driver all they needed to know, without changing views on the UI.


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## Long Ranger (Jun 1, 2018)

bwilson4web said:


> I have but not that particular screen. I've only seen the 5 min, 15 min, and 30 min graphs which are too noisy for my purpose. My car is getting a software update as I type this note so I'll hunt around later and see if I can bring that screen up. What you posted looks like what I need.
> 
> Bob Wilson


It's the same energy screen as the 15 min, 30 min one. Just click on Trip instead of Consumption at the top to view the estimated battery consumption graph for your trip.


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## Long Ranger (Jun 1, 2018)

Mike said:


> The bee in my bonnet is that Tesla used to post the "predicted SOC at next destination" all the time, next to the ETA.


Have you tried clicking on the top of the navigation direction list? It toggles the nav view to an overview of your trip and it then shows estimated SOC at destination. You can leave it in that state or easily toggle back and forth.


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## Mike (Apr 4, 2016)

Long Ranger said:


> Have you tried clicking on the top of the navigation direction list? It toggles the nav view to an overview of your trip and it then shows estimated SOC at destination. You can leave it in that state or easily toggle back and forth.
> View attachment 27172
> View attachment 27173


Yes, I have employed that technique as a workaround.

Of course, one loses the granularity of the current navigation sequence and must focus on hitting the top right corner icon to bring back detailed navigation information as one enters an area where the current leg ends.

I know I'm sounding unreasonable on this point, but when I first got the car 13 months ago, all this information was always visible, alongside the detailed navigation map.

Now one has to fool around needlessly with the UI to scroll between detailed navigation information and detailed energy status information, with the increased risk factor that entails.

Harrumph.


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## Long Ranger (Jun 1, 2018)

Mike said:


> Yes, I have employed that technique as a workaround.
> 
> Of course, one loses the granularity of the current navigation sequence and must focus on hitting the top right corner icon to bring back detailed navigation information as one enters an area where the current leg ends.


Have you tried it recently? I think the Trip view and view toggling got better at some point. I rarely touch the upper right icon, just the top of the direction list to toggle views. I find the Trip view pretty useful on road trips. Haven't seen any recent problems with trip legs ending, but maybe you're doing something differently.



Mike said:


> I know I'm sounding unreasonable on this point, but when I first got the car 13 months ago, all this information was always visible, alongside the detailed navigation map.


Not unreasonable, I get it. It's definitely frustrating when updates take a step backwards.


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## bwilson4web (Mar 4, 2019)

1:11:48 - my first comment about the drive up to Detroit
1:17:37 - block-to-block speed reply






Bob Wilson


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## Mike (Apr 4, 2016)

Long Ranger said:


> Have you tried it recently? I think the Trip view and view toggling got better at some point. I rarely touch the upper right icon, just the top of the direction list to toggle views. I find the Trip view pretty useful on road trips. Haven't seen any recent problems with trip legs ending, but maybe you're doing something differently.
> 
> Not unreasonable, I get it. It's definitely frustrating when updates take a step backwards.


The last trip I needed to monitor arrival energy was 14 days ago..

My technique is to push a grey "line" at the base of the pictorial/written nav instructions box, IIRC under the ETE and ETA figures.

This expands the pictorial/written nav instructions box and also makes visible the expected SOC % at end of trip......while showing the whole trip from present position to destination.

To get back to my preference view of direction of travel at top, I then reach up to the upper right corner and scroll thru north up view to get to the detailed view (when the navigation scenario calls for it, such as driving in unfamiliar metropolitan areas).


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## SAronian (Apr 4, 2019)

bwilson4web said:


> 1:11:48 - my first comment about the drive up to Detroit
> 1:17:37 - block-to-block speed reply


I wish they would have run with your information, instead of moving on to a discussion of octane. It's a start.


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## Long Ranger (Jun 1, 2018)

Mike said:


> To get back to my preference view of direction of travel at top, I then reach up to the upper right corner and scroll thru north up view to get to the detailed view (when the navigation scenario calls for it, such as driving in unfamiliar metropolitan areas).


And I'm saying that if you click where my finger is pointing in the screenshot I posted, it will immediately toggle back to your preferred detailed view with direction of travel up (2019.20.4.2), if that was the view you had selected before toggling to Trip view.


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## bwilson4web (Mar 4, 2019)

SAronian said:


> I wish they would have run with your information, instead of moving on to a discussion of octane. It's a start.


When I shared my SuperCharger costs, there was a visible response because they have been thinking gas-style, not EV-style.

GAS-Style Trip

Fill-up the day before
Drive and fill-up at stations when you need a coffee and bathroom break
Bathroom break at fast food chain and eat there
EV-Style Trip (* Std Rng Plus Model 3)

Full charge the night before
Drive to SuperCharger bring battery SOC as low as practical, 20-40 mi
Bathroom break at fast food chain and order 'to go'
Eat 'to go' while charging 90-130 miles (*) to next SuperCharger, ~20 min. *NO MAXIMUM RANGE CHARGING*
The key is the 60kW charge rate. If you can end a charge session just after it falls to 60 kW, time to leave if you can reach the next SuperCharger: 

Charge rates above 60 kW are cheaper per mile and fastest back on the road. 
Charge rates under 60 kW after 3-5 minutes becomes a cost and time problem.
Bob Wilson


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## bwilson4web (Mar 4, 2019)

As of June 30, my ISP is having network problems so the images are not visible. Not to worry, I still have my original images but no ability to update the postings. . . . <sigh> Regardless, I analyzed the GPS data and SuperCharger billing:

711 miles (was 787 mi)
14:18 hh:mm (was 15:11)
49.7 mph (was 51.8 mph)
$24.92
Bob Wilson


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## Dr. J (Sep 1, 2017)

This Industry Week article predates the conference by 6 weeks or so, but it shows what Sandy Munro and Mark Ellis were saying recently about Tesla batteries, bodies, technology, motors, etc. I take back my criticism (post #30) of the Sean Mitchell video (post #21)--Munro apparently is still bad-mouthing Tesla's build quality, even though I thought he had come around on that issue. Munro's perspective is not my perspective, but it's an interesting one.


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## DMC-5180 (Sep 29, 2018)

bwilson4web said:


> [*]_Tesla radar, why 1 instead of 2?_ - they didn't have the radar unit on the electronics table
> 
> Bob Wilson


It has been discovered that the AP3 hardware computer has an input for a 2nd radar. Possibly a future proof move just in case they need it.

Personally, I think they should have a rear facing radar and use that to measure the speed differential of faster traffic coming up behind you. That way the car can better match speed when navigating on AP and it wants to pull into the fast lane it automatically speeds up to match speed rather than piss off the driver you just cutoff.


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## Dr. J (Sep 1, 2017)

DMC-5180 said:


> It has been discovered that the AP3 hardware computer has an input for a 2nd radar.


I was going to ask for a source, but then I found these guys:


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## DMC-5180 (Sep 29, 2018)

Yup, that’s the source.


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## Dr. J (Sep 1, 2017)

DMC-5180 said:


> Yup, that's the source.


The comments are pretty rich, about the "dude on the left."


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## bwilson4web (Mar 4, 2019)

If two Continental radars are rotated 90 degrees relative to the other, the radar data can be used to make a +/- 9 degree, 0.2 degree slices, matrix with distances to 170 m and z-axis velocities. Comparing subsequent matrix frames can provide changes in azimuth, detecting crossing traffic, and elevation avoiding braking for overhead signs. 

Bob Wilson


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## Mike (Apr 4, 2016)

Long Ranger said:


> And I'm saying that if you click where my finger is pointing in the screenshot I posted, it will immediately toggle back to your preferred detailed view with direction of travel up (2019.20.4.2), if that was the view you had selected before toggling to Trip view.


I'll try that exact technique on a road trip tomorrow.

Your hack will save me some grief,,thanks.


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## Mike (Apr 4, 2016)

Long Ranger said:


> And I'm saying that if you click where my finger is pointing in the screenshot I posted, it will immediately toggle back to your preferred detailed view with direction of travel up (2019.20.4.2), if that was the view you had selected before toggling to Trip view.


Works likes a charm! 

Now if only they can figure out a quick hack for walk away lock "off", but only in my garage.


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## wooter (Dec 2, 2018)

Mike said:


> I have been lamenting the day Tesla removed the "% battery remaining at next planned stop" icon that was always visible right next to the planned ETA.
> 
> I have sent Tesla, about once a month, a recommendation to bring back that icon as always showing as that prevents needless attention spent on drilling down into unique dialog boxes.


It's still there in my cars. Just scroll down to the bottom of the list of all navigation instructions. Sometimes, the last line which includes the % battery estimation on arrival is not visible in the available view box in the interface.


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## Mike (Apr 4, 2016)

wooter said:


> It's still there in my cars. Just scroll down to the bottom of the list of all navigation instructions. Sometimes, the last line which includes the % battery estimation on arrival is not visible in the available view box in the interface.


Agreed, it still there......after you either scroll down or switch views.

The point I make is that it used to always be next to the ETA, no scrolling, no changing views.


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## garsh (Apr 4, 2016)

Another Sean Mitchell video, interviewing Sandy Munro.
Pretty good overall.


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## Al_P3DLR (Jan 4, 2020)

Hey guys,
just received my model 3 and seek to dive in the drivetrain secretsSo I ask for your much valued knowlege.
I try to build a rough model for my Model 3 rear drivetrain to match it with some accessable CAN-Data. (Disclaimer: its just a personal hobby, there's no kind of business interest or even worse a car maker behind it ).
What I've been searching for for quite a while is some information about the winding design - thanks to Bob Wilson, we already know a lot about the rotor, esp. the magnets. But as those of you, which have an electrical engineering background surely know, winding desgin is key to performance as well as comfort. I tried to approach via traditional design rules but this car is that outstanding that you get off all limits.
What I'm looking for is something similar to this (slide 31)
https://www.coilwindingexpo.com/berlin/__media/pages/Tutorial-1-D--Staton-&-J--Goss-MDL.PDF

What I found out so far is the following:
Number of slots 54
3 phase winding
3 pole pairs
--> 3 slots per pole per phase.
I further assume a double layer winding (as in Model S) and a pitched coil (e.g. 8/9). But what is key, the number of strands, number of turns, branches in parallel / series etc) is a myth to me. So maybe some of you might help?

Certainly, as soon as I get to know something, I'll let you know!
Al


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## bwilson4web (Mar 4, 2019)

Without putting it on a dyno to measure voltage, current, torque, encoded position, and applied voltage, I don't know we have any clue. Given the high efficiency, I would expect the RC model crowd is trying to reverse engineer it because of the increase in efficiency for longer flight times.

Using Mr. Google, I found these papers and books listed:

_[BOOK] Switched reluctance motor drives: modeling, simulation, analysis, design, and applications_​_R Krishnan - 2017 - taylorfrancis.com_​_Industrial interest in switched reluctance motor (SRM) drives has varied since 1850s. The _​_recent surge of activity since the 1980s has spurred university and industrial research and _​_product development in the UK and US and in a very small measure in some other …_​​_[PDF] academia.edu_​_Microcomputer control of switched reluctance motor_​_BK Bose, TJE Miller, PM Szczesny… - IEEE Transactions on …, 1986 - ieeexplore.ieee.org_​_A microcomputer-based four-quadrant control system of a switched reluctance motor is _​_described. The control was implemented with a speed feedback loop, a torque feedback _​_loop, and both the torque and speed feedback loops combined. In addition the controller …_​_ Cited by 312 Related articles All 5 versions_​_Torque ripple minimization in switched reluctance motor drives by PWM current control_​_I Husain, M Ehsani - IEEE transactions on power electronics, 1996 - ieeexplore.ieee.org_​_Higher torque ripple is one of the few drawbacks of switched reluctance motor (SRM) drives _​_which otherwise possess excellent characteristics for applications in many commercial _​_drives. This paper begins with an extensive review of torque ripple reduction methods that …_​_ Cited by 526 Related articles All 7 versions_​_Design considerations for the switched reluctance motor_​_AV Radun - IEEE Transactions on Industry Applications, 1995 - ieeexplore.ieee.org_​_Analytical design equations are developed to predict the performance and to guide the _​_design of the switched reluctance motor (SRM). The use of these analytical equations to _​_trade-off different SRM attributes is discussed. The various approximations and …_​_ Cited by 296 Related articles All 6 versions_​_Advantages of switched reluctance motor applications to EV and HEV: Design and control issues_​_KM Rahman, B Fahimi, G Suresh… - IEEE transactions on …, 2000 - ieeexplore.ieee.org_​_Land vehicles need their drivetrain to operate entirely in constant power in order to meet _​_their operational constraints, such as initial acceleration and gradability, with minimum _​_power rating. The internal combustion engine (ICE) is inappropriate for producing this torque …_​_ Cited by 532 Related articles All 7 versions_​_Improved analysis of a bearingless switched reluctance motor_​_M Takemoto, H Suzuki, A Chiba… - IEEE Transactions …, 2001 - ieeexplore.ieee.org_​_Bearingless switched reluctance motors, which can control rotor radial positions with _​_magnetic force, have been proposed. Bearingless switched reluctance motors have _​_combined characteristics of switched reluctance motors and magnetic bearings. Production …_​_ Cited by 231 Related articles All 5 versions_​_Nonlinear theory of the switched reluctance motor for rapid computer-aided design_​_TJE Miller, M McGilp - IEE Proceedings B (Electric Power Applications), 1990 - IET_​_The nonlinear magnetisation characteristics of the switched reluctance motor are modelled _​_analytically by piecewise first-or second-order functions of flux linkage against rotor position, _​_with current as an undetermined parameter. This model is more efficient than previous …_​_ Cited by 340 Related articles All 5 versions_​_[PDF] researchgate.net_​_Simulation of a 6/4 switched reluctance motor based on Matlab/Simulink environment_​_F Soares, PJC Branco - IEEE transactions on aerospace and …, 2001 - ieeexplore.ieee.org_​_A Matlab/Simulink environment to simulate a 6/4-switched reluctance motor is described. _​_From its linear model to the nonlinear model, its dynamics is described and discussed in _​_detail. All simulations are completely documented by their block diagrams and …_​_ Cited by 361 Related articles All 14 versions_​_Estimation of switched reluctance motor losses_​_PN Materu, R Krishnan - IEEE Transactions on Industry …, 1992 - ieeexplore.ieee.org_​_A method of predicting switched reluctance motor (SRM) losses under operating conditions _​_inclusive of saturation is described. General expressions for the flux frequencies in different _​_parts of the core are derived. Fourier analysis is applied to decompose the flux waveforms …_​_ Cited by 191 Related articles All 5 versions_​_[PDF] gla.ac.uk_​_Vibration modes and acoustic noise in a four-phase switched reluctance motor_​_RS Colby, FM Mottier, TJE Miller - IEEE Transactions on …, 1996 - ieeexplore.ieee.org_​_Acoustic noise in the switched reluctance motor (SRM) is caused primarily by the _​_deformation of the stator lamination stack. Acoustic noise is most severe when the periodic _​_excitation of the SRM phases excites a natural vibration mode of the stack. The natural …_​_ Cited by 259 Related articles All 11 versions_​
I would start with this list.

GOOD LUCK!
Bob Wilson


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## JWardell (May 9, 2016)

I got some pictures when I got to hold the torndown motors but I wasn't abut to count windings


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