# How Important Is Full Self Driving to you - both when you bought the car and now?



## Needsdecaf (Dec 27, 2018)

With all the talk about FSD that seems to accompany every earnings call, and the resulting barrage of twitter / MSM posts about it that inevitably follow, I wanted to get a read from ACTUAL OWNERS what they really think of FSD? I know that there are a ton of posts on it but wanted to kind of gauge what everyone's thoughts were, and how many people really plan on using it?

Personally, TACC with Autosteer is enough for me for now. I bought my Model 3 because it was an EV and EAP had the ability to really reduce the stress on my commute...and it has, in spades. I drive a LOT (my car was delivered at the end of December and already has over 17k miles) and the Model 3 has really made it more enjoyable, especially the EAP features.

Having said that, there are enough frustrations with just basic EAP functions (especially NOA) that I don't see myself getting FSD until it is REALLY proven. I'd definitely need to experience a car with the upgraded computer running just the same EAP features before I was convinced to make the leap to FSD on city streets in more challenging situations.

To me, the goal of FSD is, as I've said before, full hands off, no user input required, take me to my destination while I don't pay attention at all. Anything less than that to me just doesn't seem worth it.

I'm sure that many will disagree with me and I welcome that. I am not posting this to throw down the gauntlet as being the only reasonable position; we seem to be a very well educated and mature group here capable of having discussions without animosity and I hope that's how this thread goes.

So what say you?
*
EDIT / CLARIFICATION:

I'm seeing some of the posts discussing that they were impressed with Full Self Driving on their test drive, use it's features now.

That's NOT what I mean. *

What I mean is the eventual realization of the "feature complete" that Elon discusses. Meaning, essentially, Navigate On Autopilot on city and highway streets. FULL, SELF, Driving by the car. As in, I can input a destination in my driveway and not have to do anything until I get to my destination.


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## airbusav8r (Feb 24, 2019)

I’m with ya... I want them to get the highway done proper. Make it so we can not pay attention there, merge, adjust speed normal, not almost get rear ended, etc... Off the highway I’d prefer drive, it’s fun where I live. If I’m drinking would be the only reason I can think, or sick and Uber is fine for that.


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## PEIEVGUY (Dec 19, 2018)

I live in rural area where there aren’t any ‘highways’ just a few 4 lane roads and everywhere else is 2 lane ‘county roads’. (Hell, some of our roads aren’t even paved!) I wasn’t for go bother with EAP when I planned to order, but then Tesla integrated basic AP with all Model 3s so that was that. 
I’ve found that I really enjoy using AP since delivery, especially late at night and in a bit tired. (Still paying close attention, of course). Showing it off to non-Tesla people is amazing. They are blown away how well it works. I’m my mind, it was worth the extra cost. 
If they made an offer to upgrade to FSD (Or even a tier in between) for a reasonable price, I would consider purchasing it.


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## Ed Woodrick (May 26, 2018)

I didn't buy the car because of FSD, but I have no regrets adding it originally, a year ago


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## Silvermagic3 (Dec 18, 2017)

Needsdecaf said:


> With all the talk about FSD that seems to accompany every earnings call, and the resulting barrage of twitter / MSM posts about it that inevitably follow, I wanted to get a read from ACTUAL OWNERS what they really think of FSD? I know that there are a ton of posts on it but wanted to kind of gauge what everyone's thoughts were, and how many people really plan on using it?
> 
> Personally, TACC with Autosteer is enough for me for now. I bought my Model 3 because it was an EV and EAP had the ability to really reduce the stress on my commute...and it has, in spades. I drive a LOT (my car was delivered at the end of December and already has over 17k miles) and the Model 3 has really made it more enjoyable, especially the EAP features.
> 
> ...


I completely agree with you. Love using AP for road trips! Not feeling tired after 'driving' for 5 hours is amazing to me. However, I still don't think the normal AP is finished, let along NOA. Its frustrating that the car still dramatically slows down when the car your following changes out of your lane. I think once NOA is clean then I'll think about getting FSD, but I think that's at least a year out (hope I'm wrong).


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## SoFlaModel3 (Apr 15, 2017)

I'm not sure there was a choice that I fully fit, but ....

When I got my car there was Enhanced Autopilot which seemingly provided most all you would need. Now that they removed EAP and give basic AP, I think they force the necessity of FSD.

Anyway for me... I passed on FSD, but because of FOMO and the sale a few months ago, I upgraded for $2,000.

Clearly I love my car and love Tesla, but I'm highly skeptical I will get any real value out of that $2k spend. I guess we'll see...


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## MNScott (Mar 16, 2019)

I have a hard time believing that FSD is more than vaporware. There are so many "real world" scenarios that it would have to handle...and to date it doesn't even handle some of the basics required for FSD well. See lane centering, TACC, phantom braking, etc. I hope I'm wrong and FSD is released per Elon's timeline.


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## Friedrich (Mar 4, 2017)

Initially, I was thrilled by the FSD option. I supposedly got grandfathered in to FSD since I ordered before the EAP/FSD chane, and took delivery afterwards, but as of now I'm still on EAP. My enthusiasm vanished quickly after the first tries of TACC and Autopilot. 

While I'm sure it works quite fine in the US, here in Austria it's a whole different story. Our roads - especially in my neck of the woods - are quite a bit more narrow than US roads. Which leads to panic attacks on the side of TACC, even if there is objectively enough space for two cars. Even on the highway I still have frequent phantom brakings without any discernable reason. 

Of course, this happens when using EAP, too. Once I tried to pass a truck on the highway, and AP just wouldn't let me. It stayed not behind the truck, but about a third of the way besides the truck. Furthermore, the lane change option is very timid and just doesn't fit to how we drive normally - especially in heavy traffic. The one time I tried NoA, I activated it on the onramp, and upon entering the highway, it immediately wanted me to change to the left lane - with not a single car in sight.

So, I'm less than thrilled with Teslas assistance systems. Don't get me wrong, I love my Model 3 and would only part with it for a Model Y. But for the time being, I don't see EAP as an valuable option on European roads. Maybe Tesla has to do some more calibrating for Europe, I'll wait and see.

Oh, yeah, and then there's the legal situation in Europe. I don't see self-driving going beyond level 3 in my lifetime (I'm 60, so not all is lost). Problem is that our authorities are problem- oriented rather than solution-oriented...


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## Mr. Spacely (Feb 28, 2019)

I specifically waited to buy a car that had FSD, even if it isn't fully complete yet. I use NOA and all the self driving features every time I can and find them getting better with each software update. It is relaxing to have the basics of maintaining speed and staying you your lane provided for you. And I want to be able to drink/sleep and ride some day...


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## msjulie (Feb 6, 2018)

I got my car because it's not ICE, it's fast, it rides great, handles really well for how heavy it is and I enjoy the sound system though I wish it supported Car Play

FSD may someday drive me to/from work and then it will be valuable to me but since I enjoy driving it right now, I'm happy enough.


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## BluestarE3 (Oct 12, 2017)

I had no interest in FSD when I bought my car because it wasn't (and still isn't) available as a functionality. And I certainly wasn't going to prepay for something that _may_ come to fruition at some indeterminate time in the future ("3 months maybe, six months definitely" notwithstanding). However, I'm open to see what may develop over the coming years in this arena, both in terms of technology and regulation. Maybe by the time I get too old to drive my car, it may be able to drive itself for me and I'll buy FSD then.


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## DocScott (Mar 6, 2019)

I was a first-day reservation holder for a Model 3 in large part because of the promise of FSD. I planned to get the option with a SR model.

But then life happened and I needed the car sooner, so I had to stretch to the RWD LR, and forego the option, figuring I could get it later.

Tesla then gave me a free trial of EAP for a month, and I was underwhelmed. A few elements were nice, but much of it seemed like it was just at the "novelty/gimmick" stage.

Then they had the "sale," and I decided to get just AP (TACC and Autosteer). I don't regret that--I like those features, and recently they got a lot better. I have almost no interest in NOA.

I'd be very interested in true L4 or L5 full-self driving if we ever get there--i.e., if the car could drive itself without me in it.

It's hard to say what intermediate steps would draw me in to purchasing FSD without it actually being L4. I posted a poll about it a while back, and since discovered that people interpreted some of the choices differently than I did, making the results difficult to interpret (but feel free to vote/change your vote if you'd like!). For example, I think Tesla is moving toward door-to-door NOA in the next year or two--which to me means constant driver monitoring, not L4 autonomy. In other words, I think Tesla wants you to be able to have AP engaged on surface streets, and to have the car try to make all the turns itself, but at the cost of a lot of hesitation, safe-ish mistakes, giving control back to the driver, and driver disengagements. That's what I mean by door-to-door NOA, and I have little interest in that. To me, they should focus instead on moving to L3 autonomy in limited situations. For example, another car company (Audi, I think), has a system where the car can drive itself in traffic jams, allowing the driver to check email, watch videos, or whatever. When the traffic jam breaks up, the driver takes over again. Or they could do a similar thing on limited-access divided highways (interstates, freeways, etc.). From exit ramp to exit ramp the car drives itself and allows the driver to do other things. Those features would be appealing to me, rather than yet more features that require constant monitoring and occasional overrides.


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## NOGA$4ME (Sep 30, 2016)

Other than those of us (and I'm not sure I'm included in this group) who are looking to one day contribute their car to the Tesla Fleet, I imagine most of us owners would generally be satisfied with a NoA level of automation. It's investors that see the potential of FSD to Tesla's bottom line that get all worked up about progress on FSD.

I do one day dream of being able to hop in the car late at night, setting my destination 12 hours away, and then going to sleep, waking up as I near my destination, but I don't really see that happening too soon. I also hope that as I get older and worse at driving that my car will be able to handle most driving tasks for me.

But neither of those were anywhere near the top of my list when I got my Model 3. I did get EAP with my Model 3, and it was only because of the $2000 offer to upgrade to FSD that I bought it. But I don't share Elon's optimism that it's right around the corner. And I'm okay with that. In the meantime I will enjoy my NoA and hope that my $2000 loan to Tesla is being used wisely to eventually get to FSD.


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## Bigriver (Jan 26, 2018)

I originally had no interest in FSD. But as price increases were being “promised” and there was a $3k now or $5k later price as I bought the model 3, we included it. And as it was also to include a hardware upgrade, we post-purchased it for the X too. My intent in getting it was to have the most advanced options available to me if I want them. I’ve never expected to wake up one day and find out that they rolled out FSD last night. I have always expected this to be a gradual process. I had thought, tho, that there would be some differentiation by now - that having FSD would give me some extra feature, or that it would do a standard AP feature better. I’m still a believer that something will come of it, eventually.

I agree with many of the posts above that I do wish they would focus on perfecting NOA. Still way too many glitches in that. Continual recommendation for lane changes that make no sense. It too often slows down when I’m in the passing lane and signal that I want to move back to the right, in front of a slower car. (No... we need to keep our speed up, not slow down at this point.) But even with the glitches, the autopilot features have changed my life for the better. There is no going back. And I’m hoping FSD features will some day take us to an even better place.


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## evannole (Jun 18, 2018)

I have little interest in FSD on surface streets; I don't think I would find it all that useful, and even in the small historic downtown in which I live, there are too many edge cases that I think any such system is going to struggle with for years to come: pedestrians still on the curb but about to walk into crosswalks, lanes that shift pretty dramatically, without the best markings, while passing through an intersection, yield signs at spots where you might not expect them, and so on.

What I am interested in, however, is the perfection of EAP on the interstate. The more I see, the more I am convinced that HW3 is going to be required for that. Moreover, I am afraid of the potential cessation of EAP software development of HW2.5; I think it likely that Tesla will soon start to put all of its EAP development efforts towards HW3, basically freezing EAP under HW2.5 more or less where it is today, which is good, but not good enough, in my book. So, as much as I don't really want to spend another $3,000, I am leaning towards springing for FSD at that price while I can, simply so I can get the new computer.

If EAP could get to a point where I had to do little to no supervision in urban interstate traffic, but still had to do all the driving on surface streets, I would be very happy.


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## Silvermagic3 (Dec 18, 2017)

When I saw the Electrek article today about the price being lowered to $3K, I thought the same thing. Would it be worth it just to get the HW3.

Any thoughts on how long it'll be at $3K?


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## FRC (Aug 4, 2018)

Silvermagic3 said:


> When I saw the Electrek article today about the price being lowered to $3K, I thought the same thing. Would it be worth it just to get the HW3.
> 
> Any thoughts on how long it'll be at $3K?


Tough to know, but history says that big changes happen quarterly.


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## DocScott (Mar 6, 2019)

evannole said:


> I think it likely that Tesla will soon start to put all of its EAP development efforts towards HW3, basically freezing EAP under HW2.5 more or less where it is today, which is good, but not good enough, in my book.


Tesla is obsessed with safety.

So I think EAP on HW 2.5 will keep improving, because Tesla will see that as enhancing the safety of its fleet. After enhanced summon, I doubt there will be any _new_ features, but I'd guess the existing features will keep getting better for quite a while to come.

And once that stops being possible on HW 2.5, I've been predicting for a while that they'll make the HW 3.0 (but not the FSD _features_) available for free to everyone in order to further enhance safety across the fleet. (As a wild guess, I think we might get that announcement somewhere around late 2021, with the free upgrades actually taking place in 2022. And no, I don't believe in Elon's fully autonomous robo-taxies next year timeline!)


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## Smokey S (Sep 30, 2018)

I purchased FSD because I knew it would get more expensive when it finally came out as fully complete with the new hardware.. Plus, as a senior citizen FSD will be invaluable to me as I grow older and might not be able to drive myself.


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## AutopilotFan (Oct 6, 2018)

I want a self-driving car. Before owning a Tesla I didn't get much enjoyment from driving and would really rather read a book. (Now it's more fun, but depending on what book I'd still rather be reading. )

My Tesla was a little bit more than I'd rather pay for a car, so I passed on FSD at initial purchase. It seemed a good choice to wait and pay more later, when the feature was actually implemented. But during the "sale" in March I decided that at $2000, FSD would never be cheaper and bought it.

I really appreciate EAP whenever I am in stop-and-go traffic as well as highways. It has made road trips possible for me again, because I don't have to grip the wheel for hours or pay an exhausting level of attention.

I'm looking forward to FSD and a future full of autonomous cars. Unless I go for a Model Y, I am hoping that this is the last time I own a car. After this I'd like to subscribe to an autonomous fleet and be able to call for a car not just for everyday use, but in any city I travel to. I'm hoping to never have to face the decision around when I'm too old to drive because by then I won't _need _to.


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## garsh (Apr 4, 2016)

evannole said:


> What I am interested in, however, is the perfection of EAP on the interstate.


I'm hoping to eventually have perfect FSD on interstates. If I can take a nap and check email during long road trips, then I'll have very few reasons to ever take a plane again.


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## Frully (Aug 30, 2018)

Needsdecaf said:


> With all the talk about FSD that seems to accompany every earnings call, and the resulting barrage of twitter / MSM posts about it that inevitably follow, I wanted to get a read from ACTUAL OWNERS what they really think of FSD? I know that there are a ton of posts on it but wanted to kind of gauge what everyone's thoughts were, and how many people really plan on using it?
> 
> Personally, TACC with Autosteer is enough for me for now. I bought my Model 3 because it was an EV and EAP had the ability to really reduce the stress on my commute...and it has, in spades. I drive a LOT (my car was delivered at the end of December and already has over 17k miles) and the Model 3 has really made it more enjoyable, especially the EAP features.
> 
> ...


Before buying the car thought "FSD is the greatest thing ever..." and bought it...but I didn't buy the car because I wanted FSD. I just wanted it as it's another feature and FOMO for the price difference after the fact convinced me to pull the trigger early.
Now that I have the car and LOVE EAP, FSD can only make that better I'm sure.


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## JasonF (Oct 26, 2018)

I didn't get Autopilot or Full Self Drive because I like driving, and my daily work commute doesn't really give me an opportunity to use either (suburban streets driving). So it wasn't worth the extra cost to me.

The only thing that might interest me about Full Self Drive? Right now I don't like to leave my car anywhere that isn't at home, and take a ride with someone else anywhere. I usually drive myself (meaning we need two parking spaces at the destination) because I don't like being uncertain if I can pick my car up later. FSD would make that no longer a problem. It would be kind of nice to be able to be able to use my phone to send the car home. But once again, probably not worth the up-front cost, because it doesn't happen very often. Maybe if there was a monthly fee and the ability to turn it on and off.


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## skygraff (Jun 2, 2017)

As a line waiter and a first production buyer, I went with EAP because I didn't need FSD nor did I expect it to become approved in any reasonable time which would justify lumping it in with the financing. Always figured the price would stay as advertised ($4k after purchase) and was willing to consider it in the future (when I might need to send the car to take my parents to an appointment while I was out of town - how will it unplug itself?).

The $2k sale was weird, and twitter-centric but, even if I'd caught it, I probably wouldn't have purchased due to other expenses at the time and the fact that I still thought the $4k would be locked in. Now, they're raising the price and I'm not sure if that will fluctuate (desire to get more adopters vs the hottest commodity on the block) but I'm pretty sure they won't honor the $4k ever again and I'm highly doubtful they'll run another $2k sale.

Even though I don't trust NoAP (it really needs to use the aft camera and consider tailgaters before hitting the brakes/changing lanes) and I wish there was a way to set dumb cruise control on a wide open highway (avoid phantom braking), I feel like the hardware upgrade might very well be worth the cost at $3k and, no matter what, that's less than the original $4k I'd expected to pay if I'd wanted to add it later. I'm very tempted to go ahead and buy. Don't think I'll have buyer's remorse and I won't complain (too much) if the price goes down but I don't need it so the question is whether or not waiting might still work out better for me.


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## Needsdecaf (Dec 27, 2018)

DocScott said:


> Tesla is obsessed with safety.


Tesla makes safe cars. They are safe because the skateboard battery produces a low COG that helps in stability, and because the EV only powertrain frees up space for crumple zones.

Volvo is ACTUALLY obsessed with safety. They have stated that their goal is to ensure no ones dies in their cars by 2020. For years they have had a forensics team that travels around Sweden looking at accidents trying to understand why. They invented the three point seat belt...and gave it away because it was too important that everyone have it. They have long sold seats with very prominent, non-adjustable headrests. Because they are safer. They pioneered seats with special mounts that reduce / prevent whiplash by breaking away in a rear end collision. They were one of the first to have side impact airbags. They designed their current engine family to be all 4 cylinders only to increase the crumple zone to one of the best in the industry.

They already announced, more than a year ago, that when their vehicles are autonomous, that they will take responsibility for crashes.

That is what obsessed with safety looks like.


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## evannole (Jun 18, 2018)

Needsdecaf said:


> Tesla makes safe cars. They are safe because the skateboard battery produces a low COG that helps in stability, and because the EV only powertrain frees up space for crumple zones.
> 
> Volvo is ACTUALLY obsessed with safety. They have stated that their goal is to ensure no ones dies in their cars by 2020. For years they have had a forensics team that travels around Sweden looking at accidents trying to understand why. They invented the three point seat belt...and gave it away because it was too important that everyone have it. They have long sold seats with very prominent, non-adjustable headrests. Because they are safer. They pioneered seats with special mounts that reduce / prevent whiplash by breaking away in a rear end collision. They were one of the first to have side impact airbags. They designed their current engine family to be all 4 cylinders only to increase the crumple zone to one of the best in the industry.
> 
> ...


Yup. As much as I like my Model 3, and despite the fact that I feel very safe in it, when I get in my wife's Volvo and shut the doors (*thunk*), I can't help but think, "Dang, this thing is built like a tank."


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## tylercorsair (Jul 27, 2019)

I got my Tesla with EAP/FSD, but it was definitely not a huge influence on purchasing it. Even without, this has been an absolutely incredible car, lightyears ahead of my previously owned vehicles.

I'm excited for its eventual release (as well as the efficiencies that will come with the FSD computer), but well worth the wait. It will only make the experience that much better, instead of feeling as if I'm missing out on something.


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## DocScott (Mar 6, 2019)

Needsdecaf said:


> Tesla makes safe cars. They are safe because the skateboard battery produces a low COG that helps in stability, and because the EV only powertrain frees up space for crumple zones.
> 
> Volvo is ACTUALLY obsessed with safety. They have stated that their goal is to ensure no ones dies in their cars by 2020. For years they have had a forensics team that travels around Sweden looking at accidents trying to understand why. They invented the three point seat belt...and gave it away because it was too important that everyone have it. They have long sold seats with very prominent, non-adjustable headrests. Because they are safer. They pioneered seats with special mounts that reduce / prevent whiplash by breaking away in a rear end collision. They were one of the first to have side impact airbags. They designed their current engine family to be all 4 cylinders only to increase the crumple zone to one of the best in the industry.
> 
> ...


Fair enough.

But obsession can take different forms.

Volvo is, and has long been, the leader in passive safety measures; i.e., making sure their cars are safe for occupants when they get in an accident.

Tesla, though, is trying to lead the way in active safety measures, which prevent or minimize the severity of accidents in the first place. Every one of Tesla's active safety measures is standard on every Tesla with HW 2.5. (Well, maybe not the red light warning, but that one's still in very early days.) That's not true for Volvo, right? From what I've read, some of those options are standard, but others are an option? (Correct me if I'm wrong!)


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## WhiteFalcon (Jul 17, 2019)

SoFlaModel3 said:


> but because of FOMO and the sale a few months ago, I upgraded for $2,000.


Apparently they dropped the price again and is down to 3k. Still not as good as what you paid but I think they are still scraping for cash any where they can. Just trying to get the word out. The majority of owners in my local group never knew it dropped to 2k until it was too late

https://electrek.co/2019/07/26/tesl...l-self-driving-for-enhanced-autopilot-owners/


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## WhiteFalcon (Jul 17, 2019)

evannole said:


> I think it likely that Tesla will soon start to put all of its EAP development efforts towards HW3, basically freezing EAP under HW2.5 more or less where it is today,


I agree with this as well. The fact that they discontinued EAP gives them an out to stop development to everyone who bought it. I have a feeling this will happen in the short term and you will be forced to upgrade to fsd for whatever they feel like charging that day


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## WhiteFalcon (Jul 17, 2019)

garsh said:


> then I'll have very few reasons to ever take a plane again.


Time? Even if the car is FSD there is no replacement for getting to your destination in hours instead of days


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## Needsdecaf (Dec 27, 2018)

DocScott said:


> Fair enough.
> 
> But obsession can take different forms.
> 
> ...


Almost all the active safety systems are standard in Volvo. Here's the list of standard active safety features from an S60: https://www.volvocars.com/us/cars/new-models/s60/features#/compareview

Blind spot plus cross traffic alert. 
City Safety collision avoidance
Rear collison mitigation
Lane keeping aid
Oncoming lane mitigation
Run off road mitigation

Pilot assist is optional. And works pretty well.


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## Needsdecaf (Dec 27, 2018)

WhiteFalcon said:


> I agree with this as well. The fact that they discontinued EAP gives them an out to stop development to everyone who bought it. I have a feeling this will happen in the short term and you will be forced to upgrade to fsd for whatever they feel like charging that day


Yes, I think Elon started during the Ride The Lightning podcast that Advanced Summon was the last piece of EAP to be rolled out.


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## DocScott (Mar 6, 2019)

Needsdecaf said:


> Almost all the active safety systems are standard in Volvo. Here's the list of standard active safety features from an S60: https://www.volvocars.com/us/cars/new-models/s60/features#/compareview
> 
> Blind spot plus cross traffic alert.
> City Safety collision avoidance
> ...


That link shows that Blind Spot Information System and Cross Traffic Alert are _not_ standard on the S60 Momentum trim.


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## Jim H (Feb 11, 2017)

When I bought my car, the only option's I wanted was the AWD with Performance package. I've had many performance car's over my many years, and wanted a daily driver that GLH. ( Had 3 of those). I enjoy driving these type of cars, and using the performance when I want a little jolt. Due to this, I never really considered any driver assist driving program, from day 1 till today. I do not drive the miles I used to, but 8-10 hours in this car is no big deal. I may be 68, but not old enough yet to have a computer drive my car for me.


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## garsh (Apr 4, 2016)

WhiteFalcon said:


> Time? Even if the car is FSD there is no replacement for getting to your destination in hours instead of days


Sure. But for flights of less than 2 hours of duration, it's not going to be a huge difference. Consider all of the hours wasted at the airport, getting there 2-3 hours early in case the security lines are backed up. If I'm able to just hop in my car and do some work or watch a movie during a 5-6 hour FSD ride, I'd much rather do that.

Especially since the seats in my car are so much more comfortable than being squished in the middle seat of economy.


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## Technical48 (Apr 29, 2018)

Both times I had the EAP trial I found that TACC and Autosteer were mostly useless to me because they are too compromised by glitches and odd behaviors. I can't see FSD ever happening with the technology that is currently deployed in the Model 3, even with HW3. Thankfully I don't really care. I bought the car because I wanted a practical BEV without compromise and one year and 22k miles later I couldn't be more pleased with the purchase.


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## GDN (Oct 30, 2017)

I love the concept and technology behind FSD and like to see it in action. I bought it and someday hope to use it, but reality is I love to drive and most of the time I want to be in control. I'll use it as a novelty and perhaps on long trips, but could never see using it day in and day out even if was already in full use. When the car is driving it has to adhere to rules and speed limits and have certain gaps before it will change lanes. Few of us today adhere to the tight rules the car will have to while driving itself. It will have it's time and place to be used, but likely not on a daily basis for me.

I can still take major advantage of the safety features that help me and make me safer and still get to drive and enjoy the car myself.


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## Midnit3 (Oct 8, 2017)

It was a big reason I bought the car... I was impressed by it in two test drives I took and knew it would improve over time. I use it a lot... whenever I can actually. I have noticed some issues but love it. The feature was not supposed to be used for city or street driving yet anyway but a few post mention that as an issue. That use was coming later with the roll out of relight and stop sign recognition.


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## zosoisnotaword (Aug 28, 2017)

This car is so much fun to drive. It's still hard to believe how much I love it, and I can't imagine ever wanting it to drive itself. Even after 15 months I still look forward to getting in it everyday. I have no interest in AP or FSD, but if I was forced to have AP (and the dreaded TACC) I would use it situationally in heavy highway traffic. But in low to moderate traffic, which is my usual scenario, it would just irritate me. As things stand right now, it's pretty clear from reading this forum that there are still many of the same issues from a year ago when I had the free trial. So I'm not really sure how FSD is a realistic goal within the next several years. But I'm pulling for them and very interested to see how it plays out.


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## DocScott (Mar 6, 2019)

zosoisnotaword said:


> This car is so much fun to drive. It's still hard to believe how much I love it, and I can't imagine ever wanting it to drive itself. Even after 15 months I still look forward to getting in it everyday. I have no interest in AP or FSD, but if I was forced to have AP (and the dreaded TACC) I would use it situationally in heavy highway traffic. But in low to moderate traffic, which is my usual scenario, it would just irritate me. As things stand right now, it's pretty clear from reading this forum that there are still many of the same issues from a year ago when I had the free trial. So I'm not really sure how FSD is a realistic goal within the next several years. But I'm pulling for them and very interested to see how it plays out.


I think TACC has changed a _lot_ in the last couple of firmware updates.

I think the car is a lot of fun to drive, and I find the current iteration of TACC enhances that. With TACC on, I can still go _above_ the speed TACC is set at without disengaging. So in moderate traffic, when I might need to change lanes quite a bit to pass, it makes things easier without making them less fun.

NOA, on the other hand, I don't get the appeal of, so I've stuck with the plain vanilla AP. But to each their own...


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## Needsdecaf (Dec 27, 2018)

DocScott said:


> I think TACC has changed a _lot_ in the last couple of firmware updates.
> .


What do you feel like has changed? Personally I don't notice much of a difference.


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## PA_Ray (Nov 12, 2017)

I bought with everything before FSD and it was a factor, a significant one, but not the top reason. I really look forward to FSD because I see my reactions slowing as I age. The main issue right now is that I love driving the car so much I don't switch it into autopilot. With that said I have it on every day on the way home from work, 19 miles of congested traffic. I use it and keep half an eye on the road. The difference I find is that I get home without additional stress and actually feeling a little refreshed. I do attribute that to the car allowing me to relax more as it pays attention to the drivers around me. I don't use it on the way in. Early morning, less traffic and did I say I love to drive my car? Can't wait until FSD, at least for my commutes home and longer trips.


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## DocScott (Mar 6, 2019)

Needsdecaf said:


> What do you feel like has changed? Personally I don't notice much of a difference.


I've described some examples in other threads: here, here, here, and here are the main ones.


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## Mr. Spacely (Feb 28, 2019)

I've only had the car since April 2019 and I've noticed changes for the good with the software updates. It has really gotten better with matching speed of the road and cars around me. Regularly I drive from Tampa to St. Petersburg and St. Petersburg to Bradenton without touching anything (loosely holding wheel). NOA is not always perfectly smooth, but the system is amazing. Now when I approach a red light the system "yells" at me if it thinks I'm running it. Haven't had any stop sign recognition yet.


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## NOGA$4ME (Sep 30, 2016)

evannole said:


> What I am interested in, however, is the perfection of EAP on the interstate. The more I see, the more I am convinced that HW3 is going to be required for that.


This is a perfectly understandable desire.

I don't understand why you think HW3 would be required for that though.

Having just taken a 1900+ mile road trip and using EAP/NoA for most of it, I don't think its current limitations are insurmountable with the current hardware. It seems more of a path planning issue to me, not an object recognition/prediction issue, which I think the car basically has down right now. The major issues with disengagements or overrides for me were simply that sometimes it was too quick to pull into the left lane to pass, and too slow to move back out of the passing lane, and then after you override it to either cancel a pass or to manually pull into the right lane, it would then refuse to make a pass (this might be by design, since I think it took my override as an indication that I wanted to be in a specific lane). At other times I thought it was spot on in handling passing/lane changes.


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## Needsdecaf (Dec 27, 2018)

Wanted to chime in and bump this thread. Since the last software update, NOA is not working for me over 95% of the time. This makes me very wary for FSD in the future. Anyone else?


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## Mr. Spacely (Feb 28, 2019)

Needsdecaf said:


> Wanted to chime in and bump this thread. Since the last software update, NOA is not working for me over 95% of the time. This makes me very wary for FSD in the future. Anyone else?


No. Mine still works well. What exactly doesn't work "over 95% of the time?" It doesn't engage at all? It doesn't change lanes in time?


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## NOGA$4ME (Sep 30, 2016)

As long as the thread is bumped, I'll chime in on two very different experiences I've had with Autopilot (not necessarily NoA).

On my trip home from northern NY (to NC) through NY, PA, MD, WV, VA and NC, Autopilot (and NoA) worked quite well. Yes, sometimes NoA was frustratingly slow in getting out of the passing lane, and once you override it by using the turn signal, then it thinks you want to be in the slow lane, so it won't pass the next car, and when you override that, then it thinks you want to be in the fast lane and won't pull back into the slow lane. If you can just let it sit for 5 minutes, it will eventually start working automatically again. They have a bit of work to do on the logic here.

But on a recent trip from NC to Louisville, KY and back, through NC, VA, WV and KY, I found that Autopilot just doesn't work well on twisty, hilly interstates with a lot of truck traffic.

Autopilot definitely wants to keep in the middle of the lane (which it does reasonably well even on twisty highways), but other vehicles (and especially trucks) tend to want to hug the inside curve, and that ends up being what a human would naturally do when passing a truck on the inside of a curve. My wife would have none of the Autopilot in that part of WV.

So I can appreciate the fact that some people may think that Autopilot works great, whereas others think it doesn't. Just by traveling on two different sets of roads, I agree with both opinions.


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## ibgeek (Aug 26, 2019)

Did a trip over the weekend in my Model 3 from Fremont California to the Sierra's (Mi-Wuk to be exact) and 2019.32.1 handled it perfectly. Only issue that still needs to be fixed is when one lane splits into two. But that's been the case for a while. Very much looking forward to Version 10, which is doing one more internal QC next week before hopefully being released to the FSD owners. (per Elon) The masses would follow that release.


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## Needsdecaf (Dec 27, 2018)

Mr. Spacely said:


> No. Mine still works well. What exactly doesn't work "over 95% of the time?" It doesn't engage at all? It doesn't cahnge lanes in time?


Engages, doesn't change lanes at all. Will literally sit behind cars at 10 below set speed without suggesting lane change.


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## ibgeek (Aug 26, 2019)

Needsdecaf said:


> Engages, doesn't change lanes at all. Will literally sit behind cars at 10 below set speed without suggesting lane change.


What mode do you have your NOA in? Just curious. I keep mine in standard mode because I'm not usually in a heavy commute and for long trips I don't want the constant lane changes that you get with Mad Max mode.


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## Jim Brown (May 3, 2016)

When I got my car in November 2018, I got everything _except_ Full Self Driving. I didn't see that as something that would be here very soon. I thought probably many years in the future. And I didn't want to pay for something I thought I wouldn't get the chance to use.

Well, I didn't realize how absolutely-crazy-cool driving a Tesla would be. I have a 2004 Chevy Malibu and a 2000 Jeep Cherokee. Both have cruise control, and thats about it. So even the tiniest little bell or whistle in the Tesla seems to blow me away. Even the whoopee cushion is cool. And Dog Mode? Are you kidding me?!? Even though if the dogs need to go somewhere, they're not going in the Tesla. Not yet anyway.

Even after having the car for nearly a year, I still peek out the window to just look at the car in the driveway. When I go somewhere and park, as I walk away, almost every time I'll turn and look back at the car. If I don't look back it takes some serious self-control. When my wife takes the car somewhere, I'll go out on the front porch just to listen to the silence as she pulls away. It's still that cool. I love pulling away from a traffic light and leaving everybody else behind. I haven't been to a gas station except to get gas for my lawn mower. I drove the Tesla of course, just because that's cool. You get my point.

Long story short - I recently purchased Full Self Driving. I hope it comes soon. As much as I love driving this car myself, I will definitely give FSD a shot. I use the TAAC and Autopilot on longer trips and they've worked great.

I want to be clear though. I want FSD to be exactly that. _*FULL*_ Self Driving. I get in the car. Tell it where I want to go. And I don't have to do ANYTHING except enjoy the scenery. No input from me whatsoever once the car stars moving. Anything less will be a disappointment.


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## Flashgj (Oct 11, 2018)

When I ordered my car I did not purchase FSD, even though I thought it would be great if it ever materialized. I believed that it would be a few years out before we see anything all that useful and I would purchase it when/if it finally becomes feature complete. 

When they dropped the price to $2000, I decided to go ahead and take a chance with the thought that at least I would end up with HW 3 out of the deal. 

If FSD never comes about to the degree I would like, I will not be upset. I loved my M3 from day one (took delivery just over 1 year ago) and it just keeps getting better.


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## DocScott (Mar 6, 2019)

Increasingly, I want L3 autonomy. I don't expect L5 to be here for a long time. I have AP but not FSD, but L3 might tempt me. For example, it would be nice to have the car drive itself onramp to onramp. Not monitored, like NOA, but truly self-driving over that stretch. Or in traffic jams on city streets--just get me to the next stoplight without prompts to take the wheel.

But, based on what I've seen from TOO, that seems to be an unusual desire. Most people either aren't interested until it's L5 door-to-door, or they're interested in driver assist getting better. L3 doesn't seem to be high on people's list, and it doesn't seem to be something Tesla is interested in either--they want to get to L5, by gradually making assist (L2) better and better until--poof!--we have L5.


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## Needsdecaf (Dec 27, 2018)

ibgeek said:


> What mode do you have your NOA in? Just curious. I keep mine in standard mode because I'm not usually in a heavy commute and for long trips I don't want the constant lane changes that you get with Mad Max mode.


Mad Max.

I turned off NOA last night and re-engaged it and it worked on the drive home. This morning, no dice.



Jim Brown said:


> I want to be clear though. I want FSD to be exactly that. _*FULL*_ Self Driving. I get in the car. Tell it where I want to go. And I don't have to do ANYTHING except enjoy the scenery. No input from me whatsoever once the car stars moving. Anything less will be a disappointment.


That's exactly why I didn't purchase FSD. I don't think that level of autonomy will be here any time soon. Likely not while I still own this car. And while I do believe that there will be some form of FSD, as in "NOA works on regular roads" I don't believe it will be allowed to run without driver monitoring.

And even when it does, I want to ride in a car with HW3 and FSD enabled and experience it myself before I pull the trigger.


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## porkupan (Jul 24, 2018)

Needsdecaf said:


> And even when it does, I want to ride in a car with HW3 and FSD enabled and experience it myself before I pull the trigger.


Yeah, me too. Except I don't know if the crazy price swings will not make this option pretty much impossible for me. I missed the $2,000 deal, not realizing it was just a quick sale. Then the price went up, and I was kicking myself. Now I am thinking about the FSD for $3,000. I am pretty sure it's not worth it, as there will not likely to be any real FSD during my car's lifetime. And I am not super happy with the current iteration of EAP, having all the same issues people are describing all over this board. But HW3 seems like something I would like to have, eventually. But for $3K? Don't know.

At some point the price is likely to jump, possibly up to $6K, or even higher. But it may come down again.


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## Needsdecaf (Dec 27, 2018)

I think it is difficult to assign a value to a product whose parameters are still not defined.


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## tivoboy (Mar 24, 2017)

When I bought the car I was pretty certain it was going to be a much longer runway than others expected or Elon was suggesting. But, I wanted to be able to be on the cutting edge in this space with a vehicle that I owned and at 5K for EAP and then 2K for FSD upgrade, I’m okay with the amounts. Both for purchase or resale.


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## Mr. Spacely (Feb 28, 2019)

I just wanted my next car to have the capability to *become* self driving. I am hoping for a quick ramp up, but if it takes a couple years that's OK too. Even now I regularly commute on NOA 90% of the way to and from...


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## Buckbeak (Sep 19, 2019)

I didn't buy FSD, but I wish I had NOA. Some of the features of FSD I consider to be a party-gimmick like summon. If they ever offered some features piece-meal, I might pay for NOA if it wasn't too expensive.


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## ibgeek (Aug 26, 2019)

Bought the car specifically for FSD, but love everything about the car as it currently is. I've watched elders around me struggle to get around as they get older and lose the ability to drive. I won't be one of them.


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## DocScott (Mar 6, 2019)

Buckbeak said:


> I didn't buy FSD, but I wish I had NOA. Some of the features of FSD I consider to be a party-gimmick like summon. If they ever offered some features piece-meal, I might pay for NOA if it wasn't too expensive.


Interesting. To me NOA seems like a party-trick that I wouldn't pay for and smart summon a feature I might pay for piece-meal.

To each their own...


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## Mr. Spacely (Feb 28, 2019)

DocScott said:


> Interesting. To me NOA seems like a party-trick that I wouldn't pay for and smart summon a feature I might pay for piece-meal.
> 
> To each their own...


How is NOA a party trick? It is a very functional piece of self driving. I can drive across counties changing highways and getting into and out of the passing lane without any intervention. NOA and all other simpler driving features together make up the needed components of real level 3-4 transportation...


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## Needsdecaf (Dec 27, 2018)

Mr. Spacely said:


> How is NOA a party trick? It is a very functional piece of self driving. I can drive across counties changing highways and getting into and out of the passing lane without any intervention. NOA and all other simpler driving features together make up the needed components of real level 3-4 transportation...


...when it works. Because mine certainly isn't nearly as seamless as you make it out to be.


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## Mr. Spacely (Feb 28, 2019)

Not always perfect, but as I say you have to start with pieces of self driving and perfect those pieces over time. Then before you realize it you have complete self driving. One step at a time...


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## ibgeek (Aug 26, 2019)

Needsdecaf said:


> ...when it works. Because mine certainly isn't nearly as seamless as you make it out to be.


At this point NOA is my normal. I use it nearly 100% of the time with great success. Yes I need to intervene from time to time with lane changes. But I would say that about 95% of the time it works flawlessly.

And as someone in here said about something else. It's the worst it will ever be right now, as it keeps improving every month. When I first got my car in April. NOA just barely worked for me. So it's come a long way.


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## EV Roamer (Aug 24, 2019)

I am not really interested in FSD with me in the car,but would it ever be so nice to send the car home for my wife to use or send it to the airport to pick people up. Or run general errands.


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## Eli (Apr 11, 2018)

I feel like even if FSD ships, it's always going to get stuck and confused some % of the time and become a nuisance to drivers on the roadway. No one is building strong AI, it's just a dumb driving robot. I think it will always require a lot of human monitoring, even if the human is hundreds of miles away and looking after hundrds of cars at once. And someone is going to pay for that monitoring and it won't be cheap, but hopefully cheaper than having one driver per car.


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## M3OC Rules (Nov 18, 2016)

ibgeek said:


> At this point NOA is my normal. I use it nearly 100% of the time with great success. Yes I need to intervene from time to time with lane changes. But I would say that about 95% of the time it works flawlessly.
> 
> And as someone in here said about something else. It's the worst it will ever be right now, as it keeps improving every month. When I first got my car in April. NOA just barely worked for me. So it's come a long way.


Totally depends on your perspective. I use it daily and I agree it's useful. Autopilot, in general, has improved a lot in the last 18 months. But it still doesn't take much to break it. One big issue is bad map data. They have made zero progress on that. Why wouldn't getting speed limits correct be high priority? You need to solve that someday and it affects TACC which is a basic driving assist feature. I don't think the idea of them sneaking up on level 4 driving is what's going on. 95% is not close when you need to get to 99.9999% or whatever it turns out to be. A lot of these issues require a different solution and rewriting of code. I'm happy with the progress they are making and love all the updates along the way. But I also think they are over-promising on level 4/5 and it's going to catch up with them. I worry about the people paying $3k or $6k based on Tesla saying they will have Level 4 done by the end of next year. Hopefully, the next major update to include city driving, sign recognition, and HW3 changes my mind.

I'd also say the enhanced autopilot features are a no brainer for me. I'd pay more. But I can't necessarily recommend them for everyone.


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## ibgeek (Aug 26, 2019)

M3OC Rules said:


> Totally depends on your perspective. I use it daily and I agree it's useful. Autopilot, in general, has improved a lot in the last 18 months. But it still doesn't take much to break it. One big issue is bad map data. They have made zero progress on that. Why wouldn't getting speed limits correct be high priority? You need to solve that someday and it affects TACC which is a basic driving assist feature. I don't think the idea of them sneaking up on level 4 driving is what's going on. 95% is not close when you need to get to 99.9999% or whatever it turns out to be. A lot of these issues require a different solution and rewriting of code. I'm happy with the progress they are making and love all the updates along the way. But I also think they are over-promising on level 4/5 and it's going to catch up with them. I worry about the people paying $3k or $6k based on Tesla saying they will have Level 4 done by the end of next year. Hopefully, the next major update to include city driving, sign recognition, and HW3 changes my mind.
> 
> I'd also say the enhanced autopilot features are a no-brainer for me. I'd pay more. But I can't necessarily recommend them for everyone.


Maps have been fairly perfect everywhere I've driven. But I live in California so that is likely why. I can understand your frustration with bad map data. Have you filed a bug report with Tesla?

I have seen an engineering build of FSD in action and they are way ahead of what we are seeing. The big barrier right now has to do with all of the various directions from which traffic can approach at an intersection. We wont start seeing the magic until after HW3 is fully deployed and the code base diverges.


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## evannole (Jun 18, 2018)

Mr. Spacely said:


> How is NOA a party trick? It is a very functional piece of self driving. I can drive across counties changing highways and getting into and out of the passing lane without any intervention. NOA and all other simpler driving features together make up the needed components of real level 3-4 transportation...


The concept is great, but its current function is so poor that I have disabled it entirely. I will revisit it when v10 comes out, but suspect that until map data is tremendously improved it will continue to underdeliver.

EAP, on the other hand, continues to improve.


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## DocScott (Mar 6, 2019)

Mr. Spacely said:


> How is NOA a party trick? It is a very functional piece of self driving. I can drive across counties changing highways and getting into and out of the passing lane without any intervention. NOA and all other simpler driving features together make up the needed components of real level 3-4 transportation...


NOA requires monitoring. If I need to monitor it, and all it's doing (that AP isn't doing) is deciding to change lanes for me, to me that's not doing anything helpful. I do wish AP had lane change on signal, which is packaged with NOA, so that part to me is truly useful. But I've just never gotten the appeal of the rest of NOA, and I have gotten extended trials of it twice (once with a Tesla free trial, and once with a loaner car). Like I said, to each their own...


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## garsh (Apr 4, 2016)

DocScott said:


> NOA requires monitoring. If I need to monitor it, and all it's doing (that AP isn't doing) is deciding to change lanes for me, to me that's not doing anything helpful.


The one useful thing NoA does currently is handle lane splits. With EAP or AP, you'll have to disengage/reengage AP in order to handle a lane split correctly.

I leave lane-changes in "requires confirmation", as well as "mad max" mode so that it indicates lane changes early. It's nice as an early indication that I'm slowly catching up to the car way in front of me.


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## DocScott (Mar 6, 2019)

garsh said:


> The one useful thing NoA does currently is handle lane splits. With EAP or AP, you'll have to disengage/reengage AP in order to handle a lane split correctly.


Good point.

There was a thread at some point discussing how it would be nice if AP would reengage automatically after a lane change.

So I'll change my stance. There are aspects of NOA that seem quite nice to me. It's just the "it makes lane changes for you but you have to monitor it" part that seems like a party trick. But other parts of the way it works are helpful.


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## FRC (Aug 4, 2018)

garsh said:


> The one useful thing NoA does currently is handle lane splits. With EAP or AP, you'll have to disengage/reengage AP in order to handle a lane split correctly.
> 
> I leave lane-changes in "requires confirmation", as well as "mad max" mode so that it indicates lane changes early. It's nice as an early indication that I'm slowly catching up to the car way in front of me.


I'll add two other situations in which I find NOA helpful. I don't use NOA much for local driving, but on long distance driving on unfamiliar interstates, NOA helps me navigate to the proper lane to make exits that are unfamiliar to me. On crowded urban interstates, I typically don't turn on NOA until a couple of miles before my exit.

Secondly, I find NOA very helpful while interstate cruising under TACC. Before NOA, I would find myself travelling much too slowly behind another vehicle because TACC had gently slowed to match the other car's speed. With NOA engaged, the car changes lanes and passes that slower car. So, no I don't consider NOA a party trick. Summon, on the other hand...


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## DocScott (Mar 6, 2019)

FRC said:


> I'll add two other situations in which I find NOA helpful. I don't use NOA much for local driving, but on long distance driving on unfamiliar interstates, NOA helps me navigate to the proper lane to make exits that are unfamiliar to me. On crowded urban interstates, I typically don't turn on NOA until a couple of miles before my exit.
> 
> Secondly, I find NOA very helpful while interstate cruising under TACC. Before NOA, I would find myself travelling much too slowly behind another vehicle because TACC had gently slowed to match the other car's speed. With NOA engaged, the car changes lanes and passes that slower car. So, no I don't consider NOA a party trick. Summon, on the other hand...


In the first case, the arrows that show up on the screen provide me the lane information--I love those!

In the second case, I notice.

Smart summon, on the other hand, seems immediately useful to me. If it's pouring rain, or if I have a big/heavy item, I'd want it.

I guess if they were selling those a la carte, I'd pay $300 for NOA in its current state and $800 for Smart Summon in the state we've been shown by the early access videos. While we're at it, $100 for Autopark. So NOA isn't quite worthless to me, but Smart Summon is worth more, and even the combination of all of those didn't get me to bite at the $2000 price during the spring sale, much less the current price.


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## M3OC Rules (Nov 18, 2016)

ibgeek said:


> Maps have been fairly perfect everywhere I've driven. But I live in California so that is likely why. I can understand your frustration with bad map data. Have you filed a bug report with Tesla?


I have a while ago but does Tesla fix their own maps? Do you know what their strategy is? I know they are going to start reading signs but that doesn't automatically fix all speed limit problems. I think trying to keep up with updating maps everywhere is never going to work unless it's somehow automated.


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## M3OC Rules (Nov 18, 2016)

Smart Summon would make a really great commercial. They should get a SuperBowl slot.


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## Greg Appelt (Sep 27, 2018)

As an owner who Uber's with their Model 3 SR+ on a daily basis, I must say that having FSD (Nav on AP) is a major stress reliever. Whenever I'm on the highway, and my customer is agreeable, I enable AP. Many of my rides are 20-40 minutes of highway driving. Both rush-hour and late night traffic are so much less stressful with it engaged.
Does it have quirks? Absolutely! The centering of merging lanes has gotten MUCH better in the last two updates. It still freaks a bit when a single lane splits into two. It just can't decide which lane to take unless you nudge it. The phantom breaking seems to be almost gone. The only apprehension I have is on a section of highway that has the knock-down lane dividers. Around right hand curves my car tends to drift to the outside and it seems like the mirror is going to hit one. If they could get the lane drift on curves minimized, I'd say it's 98.0% there on the highway.


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## ibgeek (Aug 26, 2019)

M3OC Rules said:


> I have a while ago but does Tesla fix their own maps? Do you know what their strategy is? I know they are going to start reading signs but that doesn't automatically fix all speed limit problems. I think trying to keep up with updating maps everywhere is never going to work unless it's somehow automated.


The strategy going forward is to read signs and street markings when ever possible but fall back to maps in their absence. The issue with map data is that they are using Google map data. So the data is only as good as what Google provides. Most of the time the data is really good but there further away you get from major populations the more lacking it gets. I recently saw a corner case where a stop sign had been hit by a car and was essentially laying face down on the sidewalk. There were no street markings. This is where it gets a little more difficult. I believe that this will be handled by observing that there are intersecting routes and then treating that intersection as a stop sign intersection sign or no sign. You an observe this behavior now in some of the recent Smart Summon tests.


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## M3OC Rules (Nov 18, 2016)

ibgeek said:


> The strategy going forward is to read signs and street markings when ever possible but fall back to maps in their absence. The issue with map data is that they are using Google map data. So the data is only as good as what Google provides. Most of the time the data is really good but there further away you get from major populations the more lacking it gets. I recently saw a corner case where a stop sign had been hit by a car and was essentially laying face down on the sidewalk. There were no street markings. This is where it gets a little more difficult. I believe that this will be handled by observing that there are intersecting routes and then treating that intersection as a stop sign intersection sign or no sign. You an observe this behavior now in some of the recent Smart Summon tests.


That's what I'm afraid of. Let me give an example. I take this freeway entrance that comes right out of downtown. The entrance is about a mile long. It starts out at 40mph because the other side is an exit into downtown which slows to 40mph. Then it turns to 55mph. This would be super annoying and cause people to go around you but maybe isn't a safety issue. Then at some point it loses the speed limit and defaults to 30mph. Then it goes back to 55mph and the freeway is actually 60mph. There is a 55mph sign halfway through so maybe it will decide to use 55mph where the speed limit goes away on the map. But then will it stay at 55mph until it sees a 60mph sign on the freeway? I don't want to ride in a car going under the speed limit with cars tailgating and trying to get around or slowing to 30mph on an entrance ramp which is what autopilot does now. I can give many more examples.


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## ibgeek (Aug 26, 2019)

M3OC Rules said:


> That's what I'm afraid of. Let me give an example. I take this freeway entrance that comes right out of downtown. The entrance is about a mile long. It starts out at 40mph because the other side is an exit into downtown which slows to 40mph. Then it turns to 55mph. This would be super annoying and cause people to go around you but maybe isn't a safety issue. Then at some point it loses the speed limit and defaults to 30mph. Then it goes back to 55mph and the freeway is actually 60mph. There is a 55mph sign halfway through so maybe it will decide to use 55mph where the speed limit goes away on the map. But then will it stay at 55mph until it sees a 60mph sign on the freeway? I don't want to ride in a car going under the speed limit with cars tailgating and trying to get around or slowing to 30mph on an entrance ramp which is what autopilot does now. I can give many more examples.


There is some secret sauce in the coding to manage such things. Closing rate is already monitored. Traffic averaging is currently not implemented as the option is still being reviewed. This kind of uses the old "basic speed law" rules to determine a safe traveling speed. But the most important thing is that in most cases the signs are just there for us. The type of intersection, corner or incline would trigger basic rules that are in place for that locations vehicle code. Still not perfect, but if you combine them all I think you can get there. Truth is that what will likely happen is that once autonomy gets more prevalent the road rules will get better defined and become more consistent. On top of that, I would imagine that road construction will change a bit too. But that's a decade a way at the very least.


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## evannole (Jun 18, 2018)

ibgeek said:


> The issue with map data is that they are using Google map data. So the data is only as good as what Google provides. .


You're generally right, but the map data is not coming from Google, or at least not exclusively. I have gone into this in greater detail elsewhere, but in short: when I got the car, I immediately noticed problems with the maps in my neighborhood. These were problems that Google Maps has never exhibited over the course of 4+ years of living here. After about 6 months, I noticed the same problems in Apple Maps, whose info page said the data was coming from TomTom. I checked the TomTom site, saw that indeed that problem was on their maps as well, and reported it to TomTom. TomTom accepted my edits and the next time my car's map data was updated, the errors disappeared on my Model 3 as well.


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## ibgeek (Aug 26, 2019)

evannole said:


> You're generally right, but the map data is not coming from Google, or at least not exclusively. I have gone into this in greater detail elsewhere, but in short: when I got the car, I immediately noticed problems with the maps in my neighborhood. These were problems that Google Maps has never exhibited over the course of 4+ years of living here. After about 6 months, I noticed the same problems in Apple Maps, whose info page said the data was coming from TomTom. I checked the TomTom site, saw that indeed that problem was on their maps as well, and reported it to TomTom. TomTom accepted my edits and the next time my car's map data was updated, the errors disappeared on my Model 3 as well.


First of all, great catch! Second of all... This is not what Tesla staff are being told. At least it's not the general understanding. If what you are saying is true, and I have no reason to doubt you, then I'm surprised that the maps work as well as they do. TomTom maps are usually crap. But it stands to reason that Google wouldn't want to hand over their map data to a direct competitor to one of their alphabet companies.

Perhaps it would be a good idea to post instructions, for those unfamiliar with the process, on how to submit changes to TomTom when errors are found. It's got to be easier that it is to get an update to Google Maps.


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## evannole (Jun 18, 2018)

ibgeek said:


> First of all, great catch! Second of all... This is not what Tesla staff are being told. At least it's not the general understanding. If what you are saying is true, and I have no reason to doubt you, then I'm surprised that the maps work as well as they do. TomTom maps are usually crap. But it stands to reason that Google wouldn't want to hand over their map data to a direct competitor to one of their alphabet companies.
> 
> Perhaps it would be a good idea to post instructions, for those unfamiliar with the process, on how to submit changes to TomTom when errors are found. It's got to be easier that it is to get an update to Google Maps.


Yup, I have done so in other posts on here but am happy to do so in this thread as well.

To report TomTom errors that may also be found in Tesla maps, go to:

https://www.tomtom.com/mapshare/tools

Create an account and start reporting your issues. I believe there's a quick tutorial when you log in for the first time. It's not the most well designed tool but it seems to get the job done. For the errors that I have reported, it seems to have taken them 30-60 days to get them fixed, which I guess is a pretty reasonable timeframe in the grand scheme of things.


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## garsh (Apr 4, 2016)

evannole said:


> You're generally right, but the map data is not coming from Google, or at least not exclusively.





ibgeek said:


> First of all, great catch! Second of all... This is not what Tesla staff are being told. At least it's not the general understanding.


I agree that Tesla is a client of Google Maps Platform. But I also agree that it seems pretty obvious that Tesla is using other sources of information as well.


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## NOGA$4ME (Sep 30, 2016)

ibgeek said:


> On top of that, I would imagine that road construction will change a bit too.


I have a relevant road construction story here.

On one of our local interstates (I-40 west), they are basically adding a new lane from the on-ramp of exit 285 to the off ramp of exit 284. Previously this stretch had 4 lanes, which as far as Tesla (and any other map service) knows, is all there is (because the new lane just opened a week or so ago). So now there are technically 5 lanes for this stretch, with the new 5th lane being an exit-only lane for exit 284.

The problem for NOA is this: I normally will take exit 283 (the next exit), and now as I am on this stretch between 285 and 284, Tesla thinks that it needs to move me to the rightmost lane in preparation for the upcoming exit 283 just over a mile ahead. So it moves me into the new 5th lane, which surprise, is now the exit only lane for exit 284!

This is a very interesting edge case being caused by extremely new construction causing a unique navigation quirk that's basically going to render NoA useless on this stretch for people taking exit 283, and I don't see any easy way around it for software to manage (unless it also counts lanes to the left to verify it's understanding of which lane it's in).


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## M3OC Rules (Nov 18, 2016)

NOGA$4ME said:


> I have a relevant road construction story here.
> 
> On one of our local interstates (I-40 west), they are basically adding a new lane from the on-ramp of exit 285 to the off ramp of exit 284. Previously this stretch had 4 lanes, which as far as Tesla (and any other map service) knows, is all there is (because the new lane just opened a week or so ago). So now there are technically 5 lanes for this stretch, with the new 5th lane being an exit-only lane for exit 284.
> 
> ...


I have multiple of these "edge" cases on my commute. This is always going to be a problem with map data and especially a problem if you want to get to level 4. Speed limits from map data are also a problem creating situations where you can't safely use NoA. I guess we'll have to wait and see what they have up their sleeves because they need better solutions to get where they want to be.


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