# Software Build v10.2 2020.12.6 c9e3d0ebfbe3 (2020-04-24)



## SR22pilot (Aug 16, 2018)

Downloading 12.6 now. I’m not early access. Release notes once downloaded. I don’t see it on Teslafi.


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## PaulT (Aug 22, 2018)

Showing up on teslafi now


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## SoFlaModel3 (Apr 15, 2017)

I'm very curious since 12.10 is out.
12.6 was in EAP, now 12.7 I think.


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## PaulT (Aug 22, 2018)

SoFlaModel3 said:


> I'm very curious since 12.10 is out.
> 12.6 was in EAP, now 12.7 I think.


i think you are missing a digit...
12.5.6 was EAP, 12.5.7 was a quick update, now we have 12.6


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## SR22pilot (Aug 16, 2018)

It seems it releases stopping at traffic lights.


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## PaulT (Aug 22, 2018)

Some 2020.12.5.7's (EAP) converted to 12.6, so i am anxious to see the release notes


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## PaulT (Aug 22, 2018)

YES!!


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## garsh (Apr 4, 2016)

garsh said:


> New release:
> Software Build v10.2 2020.12.6 c9e3d0ebfbe3 (2020-04-24)
> 
> Same release notes as 2020.12.5.6.
> ...


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## Lgkahn (Nov 21, 2018)

yes downloading now and i am not early access. sweeet. was bumed out when 12.10 dropped it..


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## SoFlaModel3 (Apr 15, 2017)

PaulT said:


> i think you are missing a digit...
> 12.5.6 was EAP, 12.5.7 was a quick update, now we have 12.6


You're right!! Thanks! I confused myself badly there.


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## SR22pilot (Aug 16, 2018)

And now Kim takes the car to the store and left before I could go with her and check it out. Hey Tesla, there is a red car that needs the same update. Anna is sad because you picked Jouled over her.


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## PaulT (Aug 22, 2018)

So did that just set a record for EAP to general release?


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## Hollywood7 (Sep 14, 2017)

Note: After the update, a navigation map update is also required to use this feature.


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## GDN (Oct 30, 2017)

Hollywood7 said:


> Note: After the update, a navigation map update is also required to use this feature.


What version of maps? And is it the one that was pushed out several weeks ago?


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## airj1012 (Jan 29, 2019)

Based on an Elon like, he's "confirmed" that is a wider roll out and not EAP.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1253758415089758208
Now, have we ever figured out which ridiculous set up steps will force a download? Haha. Ready to start training this thing.


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## harrison987 (Jun 30, 2018)

coool!!!
Downloading now!!


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## harrison987 (Jun 30, 2018)

just tried it...works pretty well!!!


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## littlD (Apr 17, 2016)

Middie's downloading now (thanks Elon Claus)


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## SR22pilot (Aug 16, 2018)

OK. Kim got back so we took Jouled out. I had enabled the feature but it didn't stop at a stop sign. I pulled into a parking lot and checked it out. It turns out that when I enabled it, the car was still on Kim's profile. I had to enable it for my profile. Success! However, all is not perfect. When making a right turn with a yield at a light, the car can stop too early before you can clearly see oncoming traffic. If the stop sign is placed back from the cross street the same thing happens. The stop line is more sign based than cross street based. There has been speculation that the feature depends on a database. I can now say that isn't true. In one case the car slowed down till it realized the stop sign was for traffic exiting a business parking lot. Then it completely stopped for a stop sign for parking lot traffic. That sign was slightly turned so I could still read it from the road but any human would know not to stop. The warning for traffic lights comes very early. I flipped the stalk at a green light which then turned yellow. The car would have run the red light we were so far back. After that I would wait till the car started to slow before flipping the stalk. Using the gas pedal method is very natural for right turns as long as the stop line is correct. If you forget and touch the pedal to inch forward, cruise control takes over and you have to brake. 

I'm not sure this eases driving. It seems (personal opinion) more about validating things for Tesla. Much like advanced summon, it is a fun trick and shows where things are heading. I'll be using it again just for the fun of the technology.


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## slotti (May 29, 2018)

Waiting for a conference calls to end to try this out......in 59 min.....58 min....


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## Daryl (Feb 10, 2019)

SR22pilot said:


> I'm not sure this eases driving. It seems (personal opinion) more about validating things for Tesla.


I think that's exactly what it is at this point. Those of us who think it's fun and exciting to help Tesla develop their self driving software can enable, others can disable and ignore it for now.


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## SR22pilot (Aug 16, 2018)

Daryl said:


> I think that's exactly what it is at this point. Those of us who think it's fun and exciting to help Tesla develop their self driving software can enable, others can disable and ignore it for now.


Yep. That's why I have it enabled. 😀


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## Rick Steinwand (May 19, 2018)

...to confirm, this is for HW3 only, correct?


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## FRC (Aug 4, 2018)

Correct!


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## slotti (May 29, 2018)

Definitely more a gimmick than some real drive improvement. 
The fact that I cannot even go 1 mile over the speed limit on autosteer anymore, is a total no. People are honking behind me.


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## littlD (Apr 17, 2016)

slotti said:


> Definitely more a gimmick than some real drive improvement.
> The fact that I cannot even go 1 mile over the speed limit on autosteer anymore, is a total no. People are honking behind me.


I'm goosing the GO pedal to compensate.

Gotta figure we'll get the obligatory +5 MPH once this new feature gets enough miles on it.


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## Ksb466 (Oct 22, 2018)

slotti said:


> Definitely more a gimmick than some real drive improvement.
> The fact that I cannot even go 1 mile over the speed limit on autosteer anymore, is a total no. People are honking behind me.


You can use tacc at any speed with this. I image that is their preference for city driving. I think more than a gimmick, but it no easier on the driver, and clearly data collection for now.

TACc gives interesting results inside residential neighborhoods Where no lines exist. The stopping is fine except when it doesn't pull forward enough, as long as you manage top speed with the scroll wheel, it sort of manages acceleration based on surrounding, like Summon only faster.


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## StromTrooperM3 (Mar 27, 2019)

Ksb466 said:


> You can use tacc at any speed with this.


So the auto stop works with only TACC enabled? That's not what I would have suspected. I'm not sure I'd like that or not off the top of my head depending on how smooth/early the braking happens.

I think you might be right. More for data collection


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## Ksb466 (Oct 22, 2018)

StromTrooperM3 said:


> So the auto stop works with only TACC enabled? That's not what I would have suspected. I'm not sure I'd like that or not off the top of my head depending on how smooth/early the braking happens.
> 
> I think you might be right. More for data collection


For the new sign/light stop to work you must be in tacc or eap. Tacc probably makes more sense most of the time given speed limitation and that you have to disengage at each turn.


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## GDN (Oct 30, 2017)

slotti said:


> Definitely more a gimmick than some real drive improvement.
> The fact that I cannot even go 1 mile over the speed limit on autosteer anymore, is a total no. People are honking behind me.


This is one key that could be an issue with any kind of FSD vehicle in the future, especially a Robo Taxi with no driver. The vehicles are going to have to follow the rules of the road. Speed limits and all the others too. So many of us fudge different rules in a hundred ways. Rolling stops, bad lane changes, I don't have to elaborate, everyone knows. However a car driving by rules 100% of the time will cause some issue with others around. We'll get used to it and adapt and if every vehicle were driving 100% by the rules, then things might move a little faster and smoother too. The transition and integration of vehicles driving by the rules will be interesting.


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## StromTrooperM3 (Mar 27, 2019)

Ksb466 said:


> For the new sign/light stop to work you must be in tacc or eap


I would have only assumed it would only be in AP. Interesting to know thanks


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## corsair (Apr 15, 2019)

@garsh Slight changes to the release notes + smart release notes are now available:

https://teslascope.com/teslapedia/software/2020.12.6

Traffic Light and Stop Sign Control is designed to recognize and respond to traffic lights and stop signs, slowing your car to a stop when using Traffic-Aware Cruise Control or Autosteer. This feature will slow the car for all detected traffic lights, including green, blinking yellow, and off lights. As your car approaches an intersection, your car will indicate the intention to slow down via a notification, slow down, and stop at the red line shown on the driving visualization.

To continue through the stop line, push down the gear selector once or briefly press the accelerator pedal to confirm that it is safe to proceed. As with all Autopilot features, you must continue to pay attention and be ready to take immediate action, including braking because this feature may not stop for all traffic controls. This feature will be conservative, slowdown often at first, and will not attempt to turn through intersections. Over time, as we learn from the fleet, the feature will control more naturally.

To enable, shift your car into PARK and tap Controls > Autopilot > Traffic Light and Stop Sign Control (Beta).

Note: When this feature is enabled, the maximum set speed while using Autosteer is limited to the speed limit of the road. Before this feature can be enabled, camera calibration may be required, and the latest version of Navigation maps must be downloaded via Wi-Fi. Please refer to the Owner's Manual for additional details about this feature.


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## Nom (Oct 30, 2018)

It’s a good time to push this out and for beta users to test it out and help Tesla learn. Fewer cars on road to piss off!! 😆


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## DocScott (Mar 6, 2019)

Can someone confirm that the Traffic Light and Stop Sign Control does _not_ work for someone with HW3 but no FSD? That's not my configuration, by the way; I just think knowing that will tell us a lot about what Tesla will do going forward.


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## FRC (Aug 4, 2018)

DocScott said:


> Can someone confirm that the Traffic Light and Stop Sign Control does _not_ work for someone with HW3 but no FSD? That's not my configuration, by the way; I just think knowing that will tell us a lot about what Tesla will do going forward.


HW3 AND FSD only.


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## StromTrooperM3 (Mar 27, 2019)

Brian released a video on this release. Apparently it's not early access?

Edit: my bad off by a release digit thought his video was 12.5.6!


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## slotti (May 29, 2018)

Never was intended as early access. Elon tweeted it is rolling out as a wide release.


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## Lgkahn (Nov 21, 2018)

The problem with the speed is by default my car is two miles off so now goes 2 miles under the speed limit. Very annoying.


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## slotti (May 29, 2018)

Well, I agree with iTesla, this is pretty much for Tesla to gather data. Since the streets are empty right now, I don't mind using it and getting all this data to Tesla. Btw. did anyone notice that the green traffic lights are a lot brighter than they used to be?


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## iChris93 (Feb 3, 2017)

StromTrooperM3 said:


> I'm not sure I'd like that or not off the top of my head depending on how smooth/early the braking happens.


If you don't like it, you can turn it off.


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## DocScott (Mar 6, 2019)

I keep seeing people saying that the stop light feature isn't currently of any actual use to drivers. After watching the video, I disagree. The feature alerts you of the upcoming light or stop sign, slows in a sensible fashion, stops exactly where it should stop, and then allows AP to be reengaged with a single tap. For red lights and stop signs, that's clearly less work for the driver than when driving on AP with this feature turned off. For a green light, it's a touch (literally) more effort for the driver to have the feature on, but even in that case it's alerting the driver of an upcoming light that might turn yellow during approach.

On the other hand, I just don't buy that this provides any useful data to Tesla about training the system to better assess stop light and stop sign situations. Exactly the same information could be gathered in shadow mode. It does, on the other hand, provide some data about the _risks_ of this system--does it lull drivers in to a false sense of security? Do they sometimes trust it to stop when it doesn't, leading to them hitting the brakes hard and late? The benefit to Tesla of knowing that is not that it will help them teach the cars to correctly assess the situation better in the first place (they could get that through shadow data), but rather that Tesla will better understand the kinds of alerts, nags, and guardrails they'll have to put in as they move from L2 to L3 to prevent drivers from getting too careless.


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## Rick Steinwand (May 19, 2018)

Rick Steinwand said:


> ...to confirm, this is for HW3 only, correct?





FRC said:


> Correct!


According to TeslaFi, only 53% of upgrades to 12.6 are AP 3, *15% are AP 2.5*, and the rest are AP2 (just one) or unknown.

I'm hoping you're wrong (not that it would do much for me without HW 3).

https://teslafi.com/firmware/


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## TeslaTony310 (Jan 15, 2020)

GDN said:


> This is one key that could be an issue with any kind of FSD vehicle in the future, especially a Robo Taxi with no driver. The vehicles are going to have to follow the rules of the road. Speed limits and all the others too. So many of us fudge different rules in a hundred ways. Rolling stops, bad lane changes, I don't have to elaborate, everyone knows. However a car driving by rules 100% of the time will cause some issue with others around. We'll get used to it and adapt and if every vehicle were driving 100% by the rules, then things might move a little faster and smoother too. The transition and integration of vehicles driving by the rules will be interesting.


This. Friends from up north (of CA) could ALWAYS tell when Waymo (before they were Waymo) were testing vehicles, because they drove slow, stopped for everything, and generally drove different than a human.

I agree, driving will change once vehicles become autonomous. They will ALWAYS follow the letter of the law.


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## TeslaTony310 (Jan 15, 2020)

Lgkahn said:


> The problem with the speed is by default my car is two miles off so now goes 2 miles under the speed limit. Very annoying.


So you're getting mad at Tesla because you made a modification to your vehicle??


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## slotti (May 29, 2018)

Most cars are off by at least 2mph. Not based on modifications, just based on manufacturers setting the speedometer that way.


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## RichEV (Sep 21, 2017)

Lgkahn said:


> The problem with the speed is by default my car is two miles off so now goes 2 miles under the speed limit. Very annoying.


Do you mean that the car is really traveling at 48mph when the speedometer says you are going 50?


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## slotti (May 29, 2018)

RichEV said:


> Do you mean that the car is really traveling at 48mph when the speedometer says you are going 50?


Yes. That is 100% correct.


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## TeslaTony310 (Jan 15, 2020)

slotti said:


> Most cars are off by at least 2mph. Not based on modifications, just based on manufacturers setting the speedometer that way.


My mistake. I thought you made a tire or rim mod, which would also cause speedos to be off.


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## GDN (Oct 30, 2017)

Rick Steinwand said:


> According to TeslaFi, only 53% of upgrades to 12.6 are AP 3, *15% are AP 2.5*, and the rest are AP2 (just one) or unknown.
> 
> I'm hoping you're wrong (not that it would do much for me without HW 3).
> 
> ...


I'm not saying or arguing that Tesla may roll this firmware to all HW versions, but you can't rely on Teslafi for that information anymore. The HW version used to be pulled directly from the car. Tesla has now hidden that from the data stream and the HW versions listed on Teslafi are left to manual end user updates. HW 2.5 cars have been updated and the user has not updated Teslafi. Newer cars have no version listed at all because the user didn't select or perhaps even properly select the HW. unfortunately that information is no longer reliable for analysis such as this.


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## StromTrooperM3 (Mar 27, 2019)

iChris93 said:


> If you don't like it, you can turn it off.


I want it on for AP off for TACC


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## StromTrooperM3 (Mar 27, 2019)

GDN said:


> I'm not saying or arguing that Tesla may roll this firmware to all HW versions, but you can't rely on Teslafi for that information anymore


You must be tired of explaining this over and over lol. This should somehow be a sticky 😂📌📌📌


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## iChris93 (Feb 3, 2017)

StromTrooperM3 said:


> I want it on for AP off for TACC


If it's a problem, one work around is separate profiles.


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## GDN (Oct 30, 2017)

RWD just got the update. I declare take out for dinner tonight. Just to get a drive!!


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## Unplugged (Apr 5, 2016)

slotti said:


> Yes. That is 100% correct.





slotti said:


> Most cars are off by at least 2mph. Not based on modifications, just based on manufacturers setting the speedometer that way.


No. Tesla speedometers are not off by any amount. In fact, according to Road & Track (May 2020). Tesla vehicles are the only automobiles that compensate for motor speed, tire pressure, tire wear, load and environment.

_"The dash in every one of Elon Musk's EVs shows a calculated speed value, computed using all available inputs (drive motor speeds, individual wheel speeds, and inertial measurements) and then corrected using physics-based models that include motor and brake torque. Now that's clever"_

For those who want a brief explanation of the article:

No other cars have ever had an actually factual speedometer. But in the May issue of Road & Track, there is an article about why speedometers are always incorrect (except Tesla). Because all other automakers use the drive wheel to determine speed, even OEM tires change depending on wear, temperature and vehicle weight.

The same size tires from different manufacturers are always inaccurate. Road & Track used an example of a Golf GTI with an OEM tire - Bridgestone Potenza S001 that gave a perfectly accurate speedometer reading. Replacing the tires with Kumho Solus TA71 in the same size results in a road speed of 75.6 mph when the GTI's speedo says 70, a nearly 8% difference. And potentially a big speeding ticket.

In the end, Road & Track concluded that "Traditional speedometers don't really measure a car's speed. And they're never accurate." The magazine pointed out how every automaker refuses to use GPS, dead-reckoning, and required electronic stability control yaw-rate sensors and wheel-speed sensors to continuously calculate speed. Except Tesla.

No other vehicle currently manufactured has a speedo as accurate as a Tesla.


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## GDN (Oct 30, 2017)

StromTrooperM3 said:


> You must be tired of explaining this over and over lol. This should somehow be a sticky 😂📌📌📌


Well if someone isn't aware or read the other post. I'll give another update.


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## StromTrooperM3 (Mar 27, 2019)

iChris93 said:


> If it's a problem, one work around is separate profiles.


I was thinking of that. But then I was thinking you're right it should either be ON or OFF. This way there is no confusion


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## orekart (Nov 15, 2018)

Unplugged said:


> No. Tesla speedometers are not off by any amount. ...No other vehicle currently manufactured has a speedo as accurate as a Tesla.


I've seen drift in the speedometer (smaller wheels larger-than-stock tire outer diameter) on my Model 3. It took some time and fiddling with resets and the service tech to poke at some reset plus a few hundred miles before it seemed to adjust. That's very non-science-y but it did eventually reach a normal operating state and doesn't bother me now, not sure how to add to the discussion other than yeah it can happen but it should be easily remedied.


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## Grey Fox (Aug 11, 2018)

GDN said:


> This is one key that could be an issue with any kind of FSD vehicle in the future, especially a Robo Taxi with no driver. The vehicles are going to have to follow the rules of the road. Speed limits and all the others too. So many of us fudge different rules in a hundred ways. Rolling stops, bad lane changes, I don't have to elaborate, everyone knows. However a car driving by rules 100% of the time will cause some issue with others around. We'll get used to it and adapt and if every vehicle were driving 100% by the rules, then things might move a little faster and smoother too. The transition and integration of vehicles driving by the rules will be interesting.


Yes. The majority of the people are riding my butt when I do the speed limit with this. Also, seems weird when it stops at the stop sign at the line you are actually supposed to stop at. Made me realize no one follows the rules of the road at all anymore. Another plus for FSD in the future.


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## Grey Fox (Aug 11, 2018)

DocScott said:


> I keep seeing people saying that the stop light feature isn't currently of any actual use to drivers. After watching the video, I disagree. The feature alerts you of the upcoming light or stop sign, slows in a sensible fashion, stops exactly where it should stop, and then allows AP to be reengaged with a single tap. For red lights and stop signs, that's clearly less work for the driver than when driving on AP with this feature turned off. For a green light, it's a touch (literally) more effort for the driver to have the feature on, but even in that case it's alerting the driver of an upcoming light that might turn yellow during approach.
> 
> On the other hand, I just don't buy that this provides any useful data to Tesla about training the system to better assess stop light and stop sign situations. Exactly the same information could be gathered in shadow mode. It does, on the other hand, provide some data about the _risks_ of this system--does it lull drivers in to a false sense of security? Do they sometimes trust it to stop when it doesn't, leading to them hitting the brakes hard and late? The benefit to Tesla of knowing that is not that it will help them teach the cars to correctly assess the situation better in the first place (they could get that through shadow data), but rather that Tesla will better understand the kinds of alerts, nags, and guardrails they'll have to put in as they move from L2 to L3 to prevent drivers from getting too careless.


Well said.


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## StromTrooperM3 (Mar 27, 2019)

Grey Fox said:


> Made me realize no one follows the rules of the road at all anymore. Another plus for FSD in the future.


I'm not sure this is a plus in it's entirety. There is typically no safety issue in exceeding the speed limit by 10-15%.

Maybe it's not dangerous per se, but I know where I am I often have to use TACC over AP for this reason because of the 5+mph limit.

On a side note I was in Mexico for work last year, no one used a turn signal, no one actually ever came to a complete stop, the merging was chaotic and surgical at the same time, the traffic moved in such a flow that I was literally mind blown my entire week there by how everything worked, not to mention throwing in motorcycle and bike traffic. In comparison to sitting in deadlock traffic at my offices in California and Atlanta it was the polar opposite


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## slotti (May 29, 2018)

Unplugged said:


> No. Tesla speedometers are not off by any amount. In fact, according to Road & Track (May 2020). Tesla vehicles are the only automobiles that compensate for motor speed, tire pressure, tire wear, load and environment.
> 
> _"The dash in every one of Elon Musk's EVs shows a calculated speed value, computed using all available inputs (drive motor speeds, individual wheel speeds, and inertial measurements) and then corrected using physics-based models that include motor and brake torque. Now that's clever"_
> 
> ...


A lot of theory here. My buddy has a radar gun. Real life test shows different (and both of our cars have zero mods).


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## StromTrooperM3 (Mar 27, 2019)

slotti said:


> My buddy has a radar gun


Well I've gotten off every speeding ticket because the radar wasn't properly calibrated.. Just a theory.


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## slotti (May 29, 2018)

StromTrooperM3 said:


> Well I've gotten off every speeding ticket because the radar wasn't properly calibrated.. Just a theory.


Touché. But his does get calibrated quite often, out of that exact same reason. Well from the other side, so that you won't get out of his tickets;-).

But yes, my 3 is probably the closest to real speed of any car I ever owned.


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## StromTrooperM3 (Mar 27, 2019)

slotti said:


> Well from the other side, so that you won't get out of his tickets;-).


I love when they have that attitude car side and I call the judge as I pull away 😂 the look on their face at court has never gotten old. I always be sure to throw em a nice wink on the way past 😉


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## bwilson4web (Mar 4, 2019)

iChris93 said:


> If you don't like it, you can turn it off.


Can we turn if ON/OFF while driving?

On Interstates, divided, and limited access - turn off the traffic light recognition
On the exit ramp to urban traffic - turn ON traffic light recognition
Thanks,
Bob Wilson


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## iChris93 (Feb 3, 2017)

bwilson4web said:


> Can we turn if ON/OFF while driving?
> 
> On Interstates, divided, and limited access - turn off the traffic light recognition
> On the exit ramp to urban traffic - turn ON traffic light recognition
> ...


No, has to be in park.


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## M3OC Rules (Nov 18, 2016)

StromTrooperM3 said:


> I'm not sure this is a plus in it's entirety. There is typically no safety issue in exceeding the speed limit by 10-15%.


I'm not sure what types of roads you're thinking about and what typical means but it certainly can be a big safety issue.
Didn't check this source but our city just changed speed limits because of this. "Once cars reach a certain speed (just above 20 mph), they rapidly become more deadly. According to [AAA's Brian] Tefft's data, a person is about 70 percent more likely to be killed if they're struck by a vehicle traveling at 30 mph versus 25 mph."


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## barjohn (Aug 31, 2017)

I hate to ask this stupid question but what is auto steer vs TACC? I have had my Model 3 since April 2018. I am familiar with TACC and Navigate on Autopilot (NOA) but I don't recall ever having anything called Auto Steer only. I know that the newer cars have just a reduced version of TACC without the lane change feature but my understanding is for 12.6 to provide its new features you have to have HDW 3 and FSD so presumably you have TACC and NOA. I had Enhanced Autopilot initially and then purchased FSD when it was on sale for $2k so I understand both of these implementations. As far as I can see, this new stop sign and traffic light function should not work with Navigate on Autopilot as NOA disengages once you leave a freeway.


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## SR22pilot (Aug 16, 2018)

barjohn said:


> I hate to ask this stupid question but what is auto steer vs TACC? I have had my Model 3 since April 2018. I am familiar with TACC and Navigate on Autopilot (NOA) but I don't recall ever having anything called Auto Steer only. I know that the newer cars have just a reduced version of TACC without the lane change feature but my understanding is for 12.6 to provide its new features you have to have HDW 3 and FSD so presumably you have TACC and NOA. I had Enhanced Autopilot initially and then purchased FSD when it was on sale for $2k so I understand both of these implementations. As far as I can see, this new stop sign and traffic light function should not work with Navigate on Autopilot as NOA disengages once you leave a freeway.


Autopilot is cruise control plus auto steer. Auto steer just refers to adding the function where the car steers for you. after that comes Nav on Autopilot where the car follows a route.


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## barjohn (Aug 31, 2017)

I don't know of any setting that allows the car to just steer without doing cruise control, i.e. TACC. NOA is just TACC with routing added and the ability to change lanes on its own.


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## Flashgj (Oct 11, 2018)

barjohn said:


> I hate to ask this stupid question but what is auto steer vs TACC?


If you push the stalk down twice without a destination, the steering wheel on screen will turn blue and you are in autosteer. If you push it down twice with a destination on the gps, then you are in NOA (if the feature is turned on).


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## barjohn (Aug 31, 2017)

That is Traffic Aware Cruise Control (TACC), not just auto steer. The car will adjust its speed to the car in front of you and come to a complete stop if it stops. There is no setting I know of that will only engage steering automation (staying within a set of lines) without also controlling the car's speed. It lacks dumb cruise control as far as I know.


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## garsh (Apr 4, 2016)

barjohn said:


> I don't know of any setting that allows the car to just steer without doing cruise control, i.e. TACC.


Correct, there is no such setting that controls steering without controlling speed as well. All of the various types of autopilot will also control speed.


> NOA is just TACC with routing added and the ability to change lanes on its own.


Autosteer (aka Autopilot) is TACC plus lane following.
Navigate on Autopilot (aka NoA) is Autosteer with routing added and the ability to change lanes on its own.


barjohn said:


> I am familiar with TACC and Navigate on Autopilot (NOA) but I don't recall ever having anything called Auto Steer only.


Go into your car's Autopilot configuration. You'll find it there. The very first time you activated Autosteer, you were presented with a warning dialog.


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## M3OC Rules (Nov 18, 2016)

barjohn said:


> I hate to ask this stupid question but what is auto steer vs TACC? I have had my Model 3 since April 2018. I am familiar with TACC and Navigate on Autopilot (NOA) but I don't recall ever having anything called Auto Steer only. I know that the newer cars have just a reduced version of TACC without the lane change feature but my understanding is for 12.6 to provide its new features you have to have HDW 3 and FSD so presumably you have TACC and NOA. I had Enhanced Autopilot initially and then purchased FSD when it was on sale for $2k so I understand both of these implementations. As far as I can see, this new stop sign and traffic light function should not work with Navigate on Autopilot as NOA disengages once you leave a freeway.


Basically you're not missing anything, it's just how people use the terms.

Push the leveler once for TACC. Push twice to turn on Autosteer+TACC. NOA is an option in the settings. If you have NOA selected in the settings it will come one with Autosteer+TACC(Autopilot). I believe there is a setting for it to be defaulted on or off as well. Then you can also turn NAO on and off in the navigation directions on the map while in Autopilot. You are correct that NOA automatically turns itself on and off depending on the road type, weather conditions, tunnels, etc. NOA isn't going to be useful on city streets until it can make turns so not much point in having it available now.

Autosteer is not available without TACC on so its implied. In that sense, its actually probably more likely to be clear what the person means if they say autosteer versus autopilot. Just don't ask what FSD is because that will require a much longer post.


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## StromTrooperM3 (Mar 27, 2019)

M3OC Rules said:


> Once cars reach a certain speed (just above 20 mph), they rapidly become more deadly.


4000 lbs of anything is deadly if you're not paying attention. Putting a pool in your backyard greatly increases your chances of drowning.

Maybe good of your city to help lower the limits. Time will tell. But that will only help if enforced.

One of my offices is in the Atlanta area. The speed limit is 65 and if you're traveling at that speed YOU are a danger to the other traffic traveling 80-90+. So i guess my point is 2 fold. One that the autonomous car may be more unsafe due to it acting differently than 99% of the other cars on the road. And 2, is it reasonable to expect the overwhelming majority of society to want to dail back how they've been conditioned to drive?

Full disclosure I have not driven a Tesla in Atlanta traffic at rush hour, would love to, but given my experience with it so far I would only be comfortable in TACC


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## SR22pilot (Aug 16, 2018)

barjohn said:


> I don't know of any setting that allows the car to just steer without doing cruise control, i.e. TACC. NOA is just TACC with routing added and the ability to change lanes on its own.


Well, the progression is additive. Nothing-->TACC(traffics aware cruise control)-->Autopilot(TACC + auto steer)-->NOA(Navigate on Autopilot). Thus you can't have NOA without TACC and so forth. The traffic light and stop sign recognition is different. It is either enabled or not enabled. There is no conditional enabling. If enabled, it works for TACC, AP, and NOA. However, the speed restrictions are different between AP and NOA vs. TACC only.


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## SR22pilot (Aug 16, 2018)

Flashgj said:


> If you push the stalk down twice without a destination, the steering wheel on screen will turn blue and you are in autosteer. If you push it down twice with a destination on the gps, then you are in NOA (if the feature is turned on).


Actually if NOA is enabled you can set whether it turns on automatically or whether you have to select NOA on the Nav route display. You can also select whether lane changes occur automatically or first require confirmation.


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## SR22pilot (Aug 16, 2018)

StromTrooperM3 said:


> 4000 lbs of anything is deadly if you're not paying attention. Putting a pool in your backyard greatly increases your chances of drowning.
> 
> Maybe good of your city to help lower the limits. Time will tell. But that will only help if enforced.
> 
> ...


I have driven in Atlanta rush hour traffic. AP is your savior. It is the main time I use AP. Fortunately my standard commute doesn't take me into bad traffic.


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## Grey Fox (Aug 11, 2018)

StromTrooperM3 said:


> I'm not sure this is a plus in it's entirety. There is typically no safety issue in exceeding the speed limit by 10-15%.
> 
> Maybe it's not dangerous per se, but I know where I am I often have to use TACC over AP for this reason because of the 5+mph limit.
> 
> On a side note I was in Mexico for work last year, no one used a turn signal, no one actually ever came to a complete stop, the merging was chaotic and surgical at the same time, the traffic moved in such a flow that I was literally mind blown my entire week there by how everything worked, not to mention throwing in motorcycle and bike traffic. In comparison to sitting in deadlock traffic at my offices in California and Atlanta it was the polar opposite


Agreed but if every car is self-driving, less accidents. I think most accidents come from us human idiots not obeying the traffic laws which are in place for a reason.


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## StromTrooperM3 (Mar 27, 2019)

Grey Fox said:


> Agreed but if every car is self-driving, less accidents. I think most accidents come from us human idiots not obeying the traffic laws which are in place for a reason.


Considering 0% of cars are self driving we'll both be dead before every car is self driving


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## bwilson4web (Mar 4, 2019)

My first test drive:

Stop light and sign behavior worked as described and I like it.
On divided highway and limited access, TACC allows faster speeds above 50 mph. 
On streets, it appears I can set the speed slower than local. In the past, enabling TACC set it to the Google Map value and I had to quickly trim it down.
Smoother and timely off ramp behavior.
Bob Wilson


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## garsh (Apr 4, 2016)

bwilson4web said:


> On streets, it appears I can set the speed slower than local. In the past, enabling TACC set it to the Google Map value and I had to quickly trim it down.


In the past, it would set it to the map speed limit value, plus-or-minus whatever speed limit offset you had configured.
Are you sure you just haven't changed that offset since you last tested it?


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## RichEV (Sep 21, 2017)

Unplugged said:


> No. Tesla speedometers are not off by any amount. In fact, according to Road & Track (May 2020). Tesla vehicles are the only automobiles that compensate for motor speed, tire pressure, tire wear, load and environment.


That doesn't jibe with my experience, 25k miles. EVERY time I go past a "your speed is" sign anywhere on my travels it shows my speed as about 4% below the speedometer setting. So 48 when the car speedo says I'm going 50.

It would be nonsensical for the "your speed" signs to be underreporting speed since they are put in place to keep driving speed down.


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## bwilson4web (Mar 4, 2019)

garsh said:


> In the past, it would set it to the map speed limit value, plus-or-minus whatever speed limit offset you had configured.
> Are you sure you just haven't changed that offset since you last tested it?


After doing a "hard power off reset," I only re-enabled the MONITOR and enabled the stop light/sign option. That doesn't mean other things might have changed by the magic hand of a software update. Regardless, I'll setup my cabin dash cam and retest later.

I still have the GPS-vs-Google Map problem and haven't tested the curved dashed lane line in an intersection. So far, these remain the last problems I'd like to see fixed.

Bob Wilson


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## Ksb466 (Oct 22, 2018)

I almost always used EAP around town in the past. But with stop sign/light features I’ve switched to TACC with the goal being how much driving can be done using just steering wheel and scroll wheel. (No foot pedals). It can make a lot of left and right turns at natural Speeds without input (some, not so well too). But you can see the future potential for auto turning. Even residential streets, stops and turns work well at times.

I wish right scroll wheel could move the car forward a few feet, based on how much you scroll, when the car stops at a stop sign too soon and you can’t see left and right enough to judge.


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## ibgeek (Aug 26, 2019)

Works very well. As to the speed limit, honestly if people don't like that I'm following the rules, they can kiss my ass. I really don't care. I'm done rushing everywhere. 
This is just the beginning for the stoplight and stop sign feature. Will only get better over time. Quite pleased with this first iteration.


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## barjohn (Aug 31, 2017)

The roll out seems to have slowed down substantially so they must have another version about ready to roll out with some bug fixes.


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## bwilson4web (Mar 4, 2019)

barjohn said:


> The roll out seems to have slowed down substantially so they must have another version about ready to roll out with some bug fixes.


I would really appreciate it if following a car through green traffic lights, the car would not slow down. We don't really need to come to a stop at a green traffic light.

UPDATE: TACC on any street with a 50 mph Google Map speed allows my car to set and hold the speed to 60 mph. Below 50 mph, the TACC set speed is limited to the Google Map value. I'm OK with this.

Bob Wilson


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## Unplugged (Apr 5, 2016)

RichEV said:


> That doesn't jibe with my experience, 25k miles. EVERY time I go past a "your speed is" sign anywhere on my travels it shows my speed as about 4% below the speedometer setting. So 48 when the car speedo says I'm going 50.
> 
> It would be nonsensical for the "your speed" signs to be underreporting speed since they are put in place to keep driving speed down.


Those signs with a radar read-out are notoriously inaccurate. A radar should be tested with its own certified tuning forks on a daily basis. Somehow, I don't think someone is going out and testing the sign monthly, let alone daily.

Your anecdotal experience shouldn't serve as an indictment to Tesla using GPS, motor speed, the ABS system and wheel rotation to calculate actual vehicle speed. But remember, Road & Track didn't claim that Teslas serve as an absolute vehicle speed guarantee. What is true is that no other car can come close to the accuracy of a Tesla as to speed readout. And that obviously includes the "certified" speedometers in highway patrol cars. Other cars use only the driveline method to calculation speed.

According to the Road & Track article, Tesla absolutely does not attempt to set the speedometer above or below the actual speed limit. Tesla uses physics-based calculations to arrive at the correct speed calculation. In any case, I would trust the readout on a Tesla more than what a speed sign tells me.


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## FRC (Aug 4, 2018)

Unplugged said:


> Those signs with a radar read-out are notoriously inaccurate. A radar should be tested with its own certified tuning forks on a daily basis. Somehow, I don't think someone is going out and testing the sign monthly, let alone daily.
> 
> Your anecdotal experience shouldn't serve as an indictment to Tesla using GPS, motor speed, the ABS system and wheel rotation to calculate actual vehicle speed. But remember, Road & Track didn't claim that Teslas serve as an absolute vehicle speed guarantee. What is true is that no other car can come close to the accuracy of a Tesla as to speed readout. And that obviously includes the "certified" speedometers in highway patrol cars. Other cars use only the driveline method to calculation speed.
> 
> According to the Road & Track article, Tesla absolutely does not attempt to set the speedometer above or below the actual speed limit. Tesla uses physics-based calculations to arrive at the correct speed calculation. In any case, I would trust the readout on a Tesla more than what a speed sign tells me.


When 80% of those radar signs tell me I'm travelling slower than the car does, then I begin to give them some credence. More on point, on the highway it takes me longer than one minute to travel from one mile marker to the next, every single time. And I'm driving on OEM's inflated to 45psi with no modifications. Tesla's speedo may not be less accurate than others, but I see no evidence that it's more accurate either. After how many cases does the evidence become other than anecdotal?


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## sduck (Nov 23, 2017)

Those "Your Speed Is:" signs would be the last thing I'd trust for determining ones actual speed. Whatever they use to determine the speeds is bound to be the cheapest method available. And has been said, undoubtedly uncalibrated, and/or uncalibratable. You can buy the chipsets to build these things on sparkfun and similar places for just a few dollars. 

If you really want to find out how accurate your speedo is, use a good gps unit. While your phone has a gps chip in it, it's not really accurate enough for this, although there are apps that aren't bad. I have a Garmin Oregon 600, which has a speedometer app in it. Set it up next to the speedometer on a long trip, and check the reading on the GPS versus the cars reading. If you drive for a long time, like say 5 minutes or more, at a steady speed (like while using autopilot), with a clear sky, and the GPS will give you a really accurate reading of how fast you are going. I've done this, and it's been spot on with what the car says.


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## JWardell (May 9, 2016)

Speed signs are never calibrated and defininetly vary with temperature. Don't depend on them!
Use a GPS HUD app on your phone (or real GPS device) while travelling at a constant speed in a straight line for a bit (and the higher the speed the better) if you want to get a good idea of a speedometer calibration. I used to do this with a calibrated ODB speed and data display on my dashboard in my old cars.

Or, you can buy one of the many GPS HUDs which some have a speed calibration setting. I reviewed one here.

But as everyone else said, this is a problem in every other car BUT your Tesla.


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## MelindaV (Apr 2, 2016)

bwilson4web said:


> haven't tested the curved dashed lane line in an intersection. So far, these remain the last problems I'd like to see fixed.





bwilson4web said:


> I would really appreciate it if following a car through green traffic lights, the car would not slow down. We don't really need to come to a stop at a green traffic light.


did you read the release notes?
it specifically said it will not turn thru an intersection, and you just need to tap the accelerator or shift lever to acknowledge you want to proceed thru a green light


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## DocScott (Mar 6, 2019)

garsh said:


>


I'm almost sure that language has evolved since I first turned on Autosteer. I don't think the "or where there is a car directly ahead" used to be there.

You can even kind of tell from the phrasing above that it's been changed. "It should not be used on other kind of roads" sort of contradicts the "or where there is a car directly ahead" part. That sentence probably should read "Unless following directly behind a car ahead, it should not be used on other kinds of roads..."


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## SR22pilot (Aug 16, 2018)

Ksb466 said:


> I wish right scroll wheel could move the car forward a few feet, based on how much you scroll, when the car stops at a stop sign too soon and you can't see left and right enough to judge.


great idea. I have had the same issue. I touch the pedal to creep up and the car takes off.


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## Bigriver (Jan 26, 2018)

Despite the release notes saying: "When this feature is enabled, the maximum set speed while using Autosteer is limited to the speed limit of the road," I inadvertently found that I could adjust the speed to higher than a 45 mph speed limit. Here is a capture at 6 mph above the speed limit. I didn't test how high it would let me go. It is probably coded differently for different roads. I'm guessing this road is somehow a slip-up.

Yes, I had the new traffic light / stop sign option on.


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## iChris93 (Feb 3, 2017)

Bigriver said:


> It is probably coded differently for different roads.


If you're not on a city road/road that has traffic signals then I think, as you found, we are not limited to the speed limit.


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## Major Victory (Oct 25, 2018)

I have had limited use of the new update. My opinion thus far is guarded. For constructive purposes only, I have noted the car to travel too fast as it approaches an intersection with green or red lights and stop signs. I naturally slow a bit even if there is a green light for a number of purposes but for red lights and stop signs the stop is too abrupt due to a late slowing/stop.

The car has ignored some obvious traffic lights that are not edge cases.

Just giving my 2cents and hope to test more like us all to advance this before it causes any regulator attention...thanks Forbes.


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## Bigriver (Jan 26, 2018)

iChris93 said:


> If you're not on a city road/road that has traffic signals then I think, as you found, we are not limited to the speed limit.


I was very much in an area with traffic lights. Had just passed through one when I took that picture.


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## iChris93 (Feb 3, 2017)

Major Victory said:


> I have noted the car to travel too fast as it approaches an intersection with green or red lights and stop signs


I 100% agree with this.


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## Mr. Spacely (Feb 28, 2019)

One additional thing about radar. If the "Your Speed" sign is at a side angle to your car it will give a lower speed. It's a parallax angle thing. If it is directly in front of you at little/no angle your speed will be higher and more accurate...


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## bwilson4web (Mar 4, 2019)

MelindaV said:


> did you read the release notes?
> it specifically said it will not turn thru an intersection, and you just need to tap the accelerator or shift lever to acknowledge you want to proceed thru a green light


<SIGH>I would prefer not to "tap the accelerator or shift lever" but to each their own. It ranks right up there with hard braking when a car 100-125 yards ahead crosses the lane.

Bob Wilson


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## RichEV (Sep 21, 2017)

FRC said:


> When 80% of those radar signs tell me I'm travelling slower than the car does, then I begin to give them some credence. More on point, on the highway it takes me longer than one minute to travel from one mile marker to the next, every single time. And I'm driving on OEM's inflated to 45psi with no modifications. Tesla's speedo may not be less accurate than others, but I see no evidence that it's more accurate either. After how many cases does the evidence become other than anecdotal?


Yes, I've used the mileposts on the interstate to check the speedometer also and always found the speedometer to read about 3-4% too high. I'll clock it for 5 or 10 miles when I'm testing. On new OEM 18" aero cover tires with standard inflation.

It's not that big of a deal when we're allowed speed limit+5mph on autosteer but at +0 it does feel like I'm driving in a different city than the rest of the traffic.

Not complaining really. I love the traffic control stopping feature! I'll just probably spend more time testing it on TACC than on autosteer.


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## littlD (Apr 17, 2016)

iChris93 said:


> No, has to be in park.


You can turn it off while driving (need to disengage TACC and Autopilot).

After that, you're right. You can't re-enable it until you're in Park.


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## littlD (Apr 17, 2016)

Here's more experiences I've had since I got this Friday the 24th:

1. On I-70 West right after the Cave Springs exit, Middie started slowing down for the traffic lights on the service road to the right of the interstate. This was a little unnerving quit quickly went away.
2. I've had several occasions where there is no stop sign and Middie started slowing down as if there was one.
3. On some back roads where a side road to the right has a stop sign that is partially visible, Middie started slowing down as if there was one.

On a better note, the map data is taken into account for upcoming traffic lights and stop signs that are out of sight. But visibility is required for the car to actively handle the situation.

On a lighter note, maybe soon I should rename Middie to Christine?


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## iChris93 (Feb 3, 2017)

Question: Have any of you noticed a change in the behavior while switching gears? In particular while still rolling in one direction and trying to switch gears to go in the other direction? Yesterday when I tried to go into forward after backing out of my garage, and again when I tried to back into a parking space, it seemed the like the car would not change “gears” until I was basically stopped. Before I could do this while rolling around 3-5mph, I think.


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## GDN (Oct 30, 2017)

iChris93 said:


> Question: Have any of you noticed a change in the behavior while switching gears? In particular while still rolling in one direction and trying to switch gears to go in the other direction? Yesterday when I tried to go into forward after backing out of my garage, and again when I tried to back into a parking space, it seemed the like the car would not change "gears" until I was basically stopped. Before I could do this while rolling around 3-5mph, I think.


Had no problems yesterday or today. Backed up two or three times. Was rolling likely 2 to 3 MPH - switched OK.


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## iChris93 (Feb 3, 2017)

GDN said:


> Had no problems yesterday or today. Backed up two or three times. Was rolling likely 2 to 3 MPH - switched OK.


Thanks. It's possible that I've just lost the touch from driving so little.


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## TeslaTony310 (Jan 15, 2020)

StromTrooperM3 said:


> You must be tired of explaining this over and over lol. This should somehow be a sticky 😂📌📌📌


You can't really rely on TeslaFi for indication of how wide-spread a software update is, either, anymore. The fleet has grown exponentially faster than the user base of TeslaFi, such that it isn't a very reliable sample size of owners.


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## TeslaTony310 (Jan 15, 2020)

StromTrooperM3 said:


> I love when they have that attitude car side and I call the judge as I pull away 😂 the look on their face at court has never gotten old. I always be sure to throw em a nice wink on the way past 😉


So then you don't get off legally, you just know someone?? Good stuff.


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## TeslaTony310 (Jan 15, 2020)

RichEV said:


> That doesn't jibe with my experience, 25k miles. EVERY time I go past a "your speed is" sign anywhere on my travels it shows my speed as about 4% below the speedometer setting. So 48 when the car speedo says I'm going 50.
> 
> It would be nonsensical for the "your speed" signs to be underreporting speed since they are put in place to keep driving speed down.


Except you don't know how often they are calibrated, if at all, really, and they could be tuned any which was from that, but I agree, I'd tweak it UP, if anything.


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## TeslaTony310 (Jan 15, 2020)

barjohn said:


> The roll out seems to have slowed down substantially so they must have another version about ready to roll out with some bug fixes.


Post that didn't age well, ja ja.

Tesla used to do this much more often. They'd deploy a percentage, stop, wait, and then continue deployments.


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## FRC (Aug 4, 2018)

I've found the autostop functions of 12.6 to be interesting, but fairly useless to us drivers as it stands now. However, I'm sure that the data that Tesla is gleaning from our use is far from useless and will pay off for us as some future date. Therefore, I intend to try to use this "useless" function as much as practical for the greater good.


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## Hollywood7 (Sep 14, 2017)

Text messaging turned off after update...

Just a FYI: After receiving the 2020.12.6 update, I noticed that my phone was receiving text messages, but I wasn't seeing them on my screen. When I stopped & checked the settings, I found the Sync & messages sliders had been turned off. Check your settings if you use this feature. Maybe it was just me, but if not, hope this helps.


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## StromTrooperM3 (Mar 27, 2019)

TeslaTony310 said:


> You can't really rely on TeslaFi for indication of how wide-spread a software update is, either, anymore


It seems good enough for the required purpose. Even if it's a few hundred accounted for vs 25, one can make an educated assumption that the release push out gates have opened.

We don't need an exact count to extrapolate a trend


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## Unplugged (Apr 5, 2016)

One note, and I may have missed this suggestion. But....

When rolling up to a stop sign, one can still roll through the stop sign while maintaining TACC or NOA by simply pushing down the accelerator. This avoids coming to a complete stop if that suits your driving style.


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## ibgeek (Aug 26, 2019)

Bigriver said:


> Despite the release notes saying: "When this feature is enabled, the maximum set speed while using Autosteer is limited to the speed limit of the road," I inadvertently found that I could adjust the speed to higher than a 45 mph speed limit. Here is a capture at 6 mph above the speed limit. I didn't test how high it would let me go. It is probably coded differently for different roads. I'm guessing this road is somehow a slip-up.
> 
> Yes, I had the new traffic light / stop sign option on.
> View attachment 33682


Speed limits above 45 MPH can still adjust 5 MPH over.


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## aronth5 (Dec 7, 2016)

iChris93 said:


> I 100% agree with this.


Agree, although what I would like even more is a slower stop. On a couple of stop signs the stop was so sudden items on the passenger seat flew forward onto the floor.
All in all though a pretty good initial release. Biggest change for me was to try out TACC which I typically don't use very much.

I also noticed at T intersections where there is no Stop sign or Street Light a grey line appears on the display where I would need to stop the car.
About 50% of the roads in my neighborhood don't have Stop signs. You just know to stop, look and then turn left or right. I
Is this feature new? Since I recently upgraded to HW3 it may have appeared before without me noticing the grey line.


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## aronth5 (Dec 7, 2016)

bwilson4web said:


> <SIGH>I would prefer not to "tap the accelerator or shift lever" but to each their own. It ranks right up there with hard braking when a car 100-125 yards ahead crosses the lane.
> 
> Bob Wilson


Really a <sigh> Since this is beta this is exactly what you want the software to do. Just like the highway lane change feature that initially did not give you the option to automatically change lanes. Now it can so give the beta time.


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## StromTrooperM3 (Mar 27, 2019)

Ksb466 said:


> I wish right scroll wheel could move the car forward a few feet, based on how much you scroll


I've been thinking of this in for a while now. While in stopped traffic trying to override and edge up to the car in front of you with the pedal makes the car spaz and jam the brakes. It REALLY doesn't like you doing that.

But perhaps you can do that by just adjusting the following distance? I just thought about that as I wrote this. More testing to do tomorrow 👍

It seems confirming the lights with the stalk seems to work much better than the pedal. I found on my drive today needing to confirm a light a few times by using the pedal at 500ft but only once with the stalk.

I've seen a few videos demonstrate that you can't go through the light if you've come to a stop then acknowledging, but in all my tests tonight using the pedal will let you start moving if at a red light. Maybe the stalk input prevents that action. I usually drive with my left hand on the wheel and would prefer to use the pedal over my right hand so hopefully that improves soon


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## sduck (Nov 23, 2017)

So I got this update last night (Sunday night) and didn't have anywhere to go today so I didn't. What do I win?


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## Klaus-rf (Mar 6, 2019)

Mr. Spacely said:


> One additional thing about radar. If the "Your Speed" sign is at a side angle to your car it will give a lower speed. It's a parallax angle thing. If it is directly in front of you at little/no angle your speed will be higher and more accurate...


 Most of those roadside displays already have 12 degrees of parallax calibration built in. It's most accurate when you're just within short vision range that way.


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## Klaus-rf (Mar 6, 2019)

iChris93 said:


> Question: Have any of you noticed a change in the behavior while switching gears? In particular while still rolling in one direction and trying to switch gears to go in the other direction? Yesterday when I tried to go into forward after backing out of my garage, and again when I tried to back into a parking space, it seemed the like the car would not change "gears" until I was basically stopped. Before I could do this while rolling around 3-5mph, I think.


 Make sure you don't have "Hold" set on the Driving page. Needs Creep mode.


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## Klaus-rf (Mar 6, 2019)

aronth5 said:


> Really a <sigh> Since this is beta this is exactly what you want the software to do. Just like the highway lane change feature that initially did not give you the option to automatically change lanes. Now it can so give the beta time.


 ALL - 100% - of AP, NoA, etc. are ßeta.


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## Sjohnson20 (Mar 8, 2018)

I got to try it today. It works pretty good!

I did encounter the stop sign line flaw too. When I leave my neighborhood onto the main road there’s a stop sign. The car stops right at the line but there’s no way to see the road from there. So you can never really stop at the actual line. It will be interesting to see how they handle things like this in the future. Will the car be taught to move up some?


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## Klaus-rf (Mar 6, 2019)

sduck said:


> So I got this update last night (Sunday night) and didn't have anywhere to go today so I didn't. What do I win?


 15 Internet Bonus Points of Absolutely No Value.

NOTE:
Void where prohibited by law. Only one award per user. Limited quantity. This offer only valid while supplies last. Only available in one color. All awards final. Display frame optional at additional cost.


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## melmartin (Nov 12, 2018)

Hollywood7 said:


> Text messaging turned off after update...
> 
> Just a FYI: After receiving the 2020.12.6 update, I noticed that my phone was receiving text messages, but I wasn't seeing them on my screen. When I stopped & checked the settings, I found the Sync & messages sliders had been turned off. Check your settings if you use this feature. Maybe it was just me, but if not, hope this helps.


It has happened at random with the last couple of firmware updates. Hope they can get this fixed soon...


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## iChris93 (Feb 3, 2017)

Klaus-rf said:


> Make sure you don't have "Hold" set on the Driving page. Needs Creep mode.


For what I was asking about, this is not true. In all of ~40k miles I've never once turned creep mode on.


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## Ksb466 (Oct 22, 2018)

Sjohnson20 said:


> I got to try it today. It works pretty good!
> 
> I did encounter the stop sign line flaw too. When I leave my neighborhood onto the main road there's a stop sign. The car stops right at the line but there's no way to see the road from there. So you can never really stop at the actual line. It will be interesting to see how they handle things like this in the future. Will the car be taught to move up some?


For now I think the right scroll should move the car forward, based on amount of scrolling, to address this (maybe down scroll = backward too). Tapping stalk or pedal launches the car so no good.

In the future self-driving world they'll have to figure out how to do this automatically because the cameras can't see much better in this position than humans. That will be a tough one to solve, simply knowing when to pull forward to check Line of sight.


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## SR22pilot (Aug 16, 2018)

The car continues to be very sensitive to stop signs for side roads. If the sign is vis blue from the main road, the car wants to stop. Braking can be very abrupt. It used to be that braking when I came up to a light with a car stopped in front of me was smooth. Not anymore. On a double left turn lane, the car stopped about 4 or 5 car lengths back from the car in front. It was nowhere the red stop line on the screen nor was it close to the car in front.


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## SR22pilot (Aug 16, 2018)

Unplugged said:


> One note, and I may have missed this suggestion. But....
> 
> When rolling up to a stop sign, one can still roll through the stop sign while maintaining TACC or NOA by simply pushing down the accelerator. This avoids coming to a complete stop if that suits your driving style.


That isn't my experience. Pushing the pedal confirms to the car that you have checked the intersection and it is clear. The car then tries to resume its set speed.


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## garsh (Apr 4, 2016)

SR22pilot said:


> The car continues to be very sensitive to stop signs for side roads. If the sign is vis blue from the main road, the car wants to stop. Braking can be very abrupt.


The screen does display a warning that the car is planning to stop long before it starts braking, so there's that at least. If you notice such a sign, maybe you can check the display and override it before it starts to brake.

I finally tried out this new feature yesterday. It's fun to try it out and know that you're helping Tesla to develop FSD. But I still feel that this is the only reason to "use" the feature. If you try to view it as just a driver's aid, then it's a pretty terrible driver's aid. I'll continue to play with it now and then when I'm in the mood, but I won't be using it for most of my driving.


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## iChris93 (Feb 3, 2017)

Ksb466 said:


> the cameras can't see much better in this position than humans.


How do you know this? There are three cameras, at least one with a very wide angle, and they are mounted high and further forward than the driver's head.


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## Ksb466 (Oct 22, 2018)

iChris93 said:


> How do you know this? There are three cameras, at least one with a very wide angle, and they are mounted high and further forward than the driver's head.


One way, The next time car stops well before the real stop line with a heavily occluded view you can rise to near the mirror. For me this is usually in residential streets and a building is in the way. No wide angle will see around it, even if it has a slight advantage over where we sit. Most situations it works well. But they have many "corner" cases to figure out still.


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## iChris93 (Feb 3, 2017)

Ksb466 said:


> One way, The next time car stops well before the real stop line with a heavily occluded view you can rise to near the mirror. For me this is usually in residential streets and a building is in the way. No wide angle will see around it, even if it has a slight advantage over where we sit. Most situations it works well. But they have many "corner" cases to figure out still.


In the case of a human driver, is this corner case solved just by scooting up a bit? I imagine Tesla can solve this the same way.


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## Lchamp (Nov 10, 2019)

iChris93 said:


> In the case of a human driver, is this corner case solved just by scooting up a bit? I imagine Tesla can solve this the same way.


As currently implemented, this is a potentially dangerous situation. Whenever the cross traffic is obstructed, I disable TACC. I kind of enjoy all of the other "training" confirmations. It just takes a lot more focus on driving AND notifications.

I wonder how many people have just turned off this capability because of all the driver inputs required. I will continue because it's important input to true FSD implementation.


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## Ksb466 (Oct 22, 2018)

iChris93 said:


> In the case of a human driver, is this corner case solved just by scooting up a bit? I imagine Tesla can solve this the same way.


When safe to do so, yes. But this is my entire point or purposing the scroll wheel to advance a few feet based on degree of scrolling in that scenario until Tesla does solve it with AI


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## MelindaV (Apr 2, 2016)

iChris93 said:


> Question: Have any of you noticed a change in the behavior while switching gears? In particular while still rolling in one direction and trying to switch gears to go in the other direction? Yesterday when I tried to go into forward after backing out of my garage, and again when I tried to back into a parking space, it seemed the like the car would not change "gears" until I was basically stopped. Before I could do this while rolling around 3-5mph, I think.


I've not noticed this, but when putting it in Park while at a light (because I hadn't activated the traffic light option before I left home), it did not want to readily go back into drive. took long enough for the person directly behind me to move into the other lane


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## Zero Emm-ission (Jan 28, 2020)

Strong recommendation that everyone *read *the expansive narrative in the owner's manual on the new functionality and its limitations. It will help align expectations and it is quite informative. I've been seeing too many youtubers driving off after brushing off the in-car summary explanation. The new update is awesome, but definitely beta.


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## bwilson4web (Mar 4, 2019)

Ksb466 said:


> One way, The next time car stops well before the real stop line with a heavily occluded view you can rise to near the mirror. For me this is usually in residential streets and a building is in the way. No wide angle will see around it, even if it has a slight advantage over where we sit. Most situations it works well. But they have many "corner" cases to figure out still.


Perhaps a photo to show the problem(s)?

Bob Wilson


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## iChris93 (Feb 3, 2017)

bwilson4web said:


> Perhaps a photo to show the problem(s)?
> 
> Bob Wilson


This would be easier if the dash cam allowed viewing of all 3 front facing cameras.


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## Sjohnson20 (Mar 8, 2018)

Using this you can see how hard self driving is going to be. So many things they need to deal with and you can't follow the rules to do it.


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## GDN (Oct 30, 2017)

I was driving yesterday and approached a railroad crossing. Twice I got the message very briefly flash up that I would have to take action, it was going to stop, but twice the message went away just as quick. Then as I finally approached the crossing, with no message, the car decided it wanted to stop. I pushed the accelerator and it proceeded to drive.


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## sduck (Nov 23, 2017)

Ksb466 said:


> When safe to do so, yes. But this is my entire point or purposing the scroll wheel to advance a few feet based on degree of scrolling in that scenario until Tesla does solve it with AI


I'm 99% certain that they wouldn't add this scroll wheel behavior. The scroll wheel already has a set function when TACC or AP is engaged, and you're asking for that function to change to something new (and potentially dangerous) under a certain set of parameters.


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## TeslaTony310 (Jan 15, 2020)

Hollywood7 said:


> Text messaging turned off after update...
> 
> Just a FYI: After receiving the 2020.12.6 update, I noticed that my phone was receiving text messages, but I wasn't seeing them on my screen. When I stopped & checked the settings, I found the Sync & messages sliders had been turned off. Check your settings if you use this feature. Maybe it was just me, but if not, hope this helps.


Same. I noticed because I had turned off the chime, but kept the sync on. Need to go back in and turn it on.


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## TeslaTony310 (Jan 15, 2020)

What bothers me most about the new update is that even if you are stopped behind a car at a stoplight, and following it, it will STILL stop at the stoplight, despite the car having gone through the intersection. It really should be implied that if the car/s in front of you stopped for the light, then took off, the car should follow. 

The issue that I see as REALLY dangerous is that if you are the first car stopped at a light, and you tap the accelerator, or the gear stalk, the car will go through the intersection, EVEN when the light is STILL red. So an accidental touch can become problematic quickly. 

Which tells me that the code doesn't care for the actual color of the light. It relies on seeing the stop lines, and your confirmation to proceed.


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## SR22pilot (Aug 16, 2018)

garsh said:


> I finally tried out this new feature yesterday. It's fun to try it out and know that you're helping Tesla to develop FSD. But I still feel that this is the only reason to "use" the feature. If you try to view it as just a driver's aid, then it's a pretty terrible driver's aid. I'll continue to play with it now and then when I'm in the mood, but I won't be using it for most of my driving.


I saw a slam piece about this release on Forbes. I guess it balances their nice piece about the Supercharger network. As far as I can tell, this software mainly serves to make sure you are paying attention. Anyone who thinks that AP lets you text or fall to sleep should drive with this on. You are constantly interacting with the car. The software is cool but once I am tired of playing I may turn it off.


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## GDN (Oct 30, 2017)

TeslaTony310 said:


> What bothers me most about the new update is that even if you are stopped behind a car at a stoplight, and following it, it will STILL stop at the stoplight, despite the car having gone through the intersection. It really should be implied that if the car/s in front of you stopped for the light, then took off, the car should follow.
> 
> The issue that I see as REALLY dangerous is that if you are the first car stopped at a light, and you tap the accelerator, or the gear stalk, the car will go through the intersection, EVEN when the light is STILL red. So an accidental touch can become problematic quickly.
> 
> Which tells me that the code doesn't care for the actual color of the light. It relies on seeing the stop lines, and your confirmation to proceed.


Won't argue your points, everyone thinks it should operate a little differently, personally at this point I don't have a major complaint. I'm OK even following a car, this is about Tesla confirming the light operation and the car interpreting it correctly, this is beta. This isn't about driving you FSD on the roads at this point. Sometime in the future it will change.

As far as being stopped at a light and pushing the stalk - it should NOT go through the light if you press the stalk - mine would not. In fact - if the light is red I get a message about the car stopping, stays the same when stopped. When it detects a green light - then i get a message about pressing the accelerator or the stalk to proceed. Using the stalk the car would not proceed - and I think that is the safest mechanism to use.

If you manually use the accelerator or brake it will in all cases of any driving mode override any computer operated mode. If you press the accelerator anywhere, even a red light, it will proceed.


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## TeslaTony310 (Jan 15, 2020)

This is NOT my experience. I literally just tried it 2 minutes ago. If I'm stopped at a light that the car stopped at for me, and hit the stalk, it ABSOLUTELY continues on, despite the light being red. Again, pretty dangerous.


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## Grey Fox (Aug 11, 2018)

StromTrooperM3 said:


> Considering 0% of cars are self driving we'll both be dead before every car is self driving


True that!


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## gary in NY (Dec 2, 2018)

This update showed up this morning. So I loaded it and turned it on. Then I drove to do my essential errands and completely forgot to use TACC/AP until on the way home (I have way too much fun just driving the car, and this was the first time in many days). It's everything everyone has said it is. 

We all need to keep in mind that it doesn't end here, but let's hope it progress farther and better than smart summon.


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## Lgkahn (Nov 21, 2018)

RichEV said:


> Do you mean that the car is really traveling at 48mph when the speedometer says you are going 50?


Yes


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## Lgkahn (Nov 21, 2018)

Unplugged said:


> No. Tesla speedometers are not off by any amount. In fact, according to Road & Track (May 2020). Tesla vehicles are the only automobiles that compensate for motor speed, tire pressure, tire wear, load and environment.
> 
> _"The dash in every one of Elon Musk's EVs shows a calculated speed value, computed using all available inputs (drive motor speeds, individual wheel speeds, and inertial measurements) and then corrected using physics-based models that include motor and brake torque. Now that's clever"_
> 
> ...


I call Bs my suby was right on as is my wife's maxima. Just go by a number of police radar signs u will see. My Tesla is 2 miles off.


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## Lgkahn (Nov 21, 2018)

RichEV said:


> Yes, I've used the mileposts on the interstate to check the speedometer also and always found the speedometer to read about 3-4% too high. I'll clock it for 5 or 10 miles when I'm testing. On new OEM 18" aero cover tires with standard inflation.
> 
> It's not that big of a deal when we're allowed speed limit+5mph on autosteer but at +0 it does feel like I'm driving in a different city than the rest of the traffic.
> 
> Not complaining really. I love the traffic control stopping feature! I'll just probably spend more time testing it on TACC than on autosteer.


Same here about 2 miles off confirmed by radar signs and GPs units. Doesn't matter with either r18 or 19" tires same on both.


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## ibgeek (Aug 26, 2019)

After a few days of testing the new stoplight and stop sign feature for TACC and Autosteer, here are my findings.
*NOTE:* My testing thus far has been primarily with TACC

1. In most situations my Tesla was accurately reading the status of stop lights and stop signs. 
2. Stopping at stop lights and stop signs (after I did a full power off restart of my car) seemed smooth with one exception that will be listed.
3. When stopped at a red stop light, provided you do not go over the limit line, you can tap the throttle to inch forward when needed. If you pass the limit line you will get a warning from the car and the car will proceed in to the intersection. 
4. If you clear a green intersection, and the light turns yellow and it is clear that the light will turn read before you get to the intersection, the car will identify it and slow to a reasonable stop.
5. If you clear a green intersection, and the light turns yellow within a few yards of the limit line, the car will see the yellow but proceed through the intersection.
6. If you clear a green intersection, and the light turns yellow somewhere between #4 and #5, the car will alert you and aggressively stop. Basically this is that grey area between where it is safe to assume the light will still be yellow as you cross the intersection and where you know it will turn red before you clear the intersection. This could be a bit hazardous in slick conditions. 
7. Stop light limit lines seem to be fairly accurately placed.
8. Stop sign limit lines tend to be a little to far back for my liking. Tapping the throttle does not allow you to inch forward like you can at a red light. 
9. Interestingly I find that the car handles stop lights better than it handles stop signs. The exact opposite of what I would have expected. Mainly because of the limit line placement causing the car to stop a bit too far back.

Overall my experience with this beta has been mostly positive. I think the first iteration of lane changing was far more jarring that this new feature is, and now I use it nearly 100% when on the freeway. I can't remember the last time a lane change didn't go smoothly. I look forward to seeing this new feature improve.

Testing done in Northern California (San Francisco Bay Area) during light to moderate city traffic.


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## shareef777 (Mar 10, 2019)

Anyone else’s autosteer won’t go above posted limits now?


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## ibgeek (Aug 26, 2019)

shareef777 said:


> Anyone else's autosteer won't go above posted limits now?


Yes that is the case for speed limits under 45 MPH on undivided roads. I've not tested to see if this is the case with the new auto stop feature disabled. Tesla is being extra cautious with this new feature release.


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## shareef777 (Mar 10, 2019)

ibgeek said:


> Yes that is the case for speed limits under 45 MPH on undivided roads. I've not tested to see if this is the case with the new auto stop feature disabled. Tesla is being extra cautious with this new feature release.


Won't go over 45. It does work if auto stop is disabled. I re-enabled it and read the message. By design


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## tivoboy (Mar 24, 2017)

I have to say, as much as this said it should have helped the Bluetooth issues, it seems to have introduce significantly BAD Bluetooth issues where the phone now won’t stay connected for more than 60 seconds, the disconnects and reconnects and repeats this over and over again in a loop endlessly. I’ve tried unpairing and re-pairing the phone several times, no help. anyone have any idea how to solve this? at this point the BT connect to an iPhone that worked flawlessly for several years is useless.


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## ibgeek (Aug 26, 2019)

tivoboy said:


> I have to say, as much as this said it should have helped the Bluetooth issues, it seems to have introduce significantly BAD Bluetooth issues where the phone now won't stay connected for more than 60 seconds, the disconnects and reconnects and repeats this over and over again in a loop endlessly. I've tried unpairing and re-pairing the phone several times, no help. anyone have any idea how to solve this? at this point the BT connect to an iPhone that worked flawlessly for several years is useless.


My Samsung Galaxy S10+ Never has any issue with Bluetooth. Door entry, music, texting all work as expected without any interruptions.


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## shareef777 (Mar 10, 2019)

tivoboy said:


> I have to say, as much as this said it should have helped the Bluetooth issues, it seems to have introduce significantly BAD Bluetooth issues where the phone now won't stay connected for more than 60 seconds, the disconnects and reconnects and repeats this over and over again in a loop endlessly. I've tried unpairing and re-pairing the phone several times, no help. anyone have any idea how to solve this? at this point the BT connect to an iPhone that worked flawlessly for several years is useless.


Did you try waking your phone from sleep before opening a door? I've recently had my 3 pop up the keycard prompt on-screen when trying to open a door (as it doesn't acknowledge my phone). I unlock my phone and try the handle and it immediately unlocks the door.


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## ibgeek (Aug 26, 2019)

shareef777 said:


> Did you try waking your phone from sleep before opening a door? I've recently had my 3 pop up the keycard prompt on-screen when trying to open a door (as it doesn't acknowledge my phone). I unlock my phone and try the handle and it immediately unlocks the door.


I just leave my phone in my pocket. Never have an issue getting the door to open. Haven't gotten prompted for a key card since prior to getting HW3 installed.


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## shareef777 (Mar 10, 2019)

ibgeek said:


> I just leave my phone in my pocket. Never have an issue getting the door to open. Haven't gotten prompted for a key card since prior to getting HW3 installed.


Its hit or miss for me. Sometimes it works, others it doesn't. It's why on days that I'm in a hurry I grab my keyfob.


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## tivoboy (Mar 24, 2017)

Historically I just have the phone in my pocket, or place in the car.. door entry and phone as key is not the problem. Maintining a connection for calls, messaging and other Bluetooth dependant items is the problem. I can watch the Bluetooth icon on the dash every 60 seconds lose the Bluetooth connection and then reconnect. Over and over again. I’ve never had any problem this bad in the past two years.


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## francoisp (Sep 28, 2018)

I find the required confirmation to go through traffic lights to be as annoying as I thought it would be. No longer using it. I have no problem with stop signs and I wish for a separate setting for it.


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## TetonTesla (Nov 18, 2018)

tivoboy said:


> I have to say, as much as this said it should have helped the Bluetooth issues, it seems to have introduce significantly BAD Bluetooth issues where the phone now won't stay connected for more than 60 seconds, the disconnects and reconnects and repeats this over and over again in a loop endlessly. I've tried unpairing and re-pairing the phone several times, no help. anyone have any idea how to solve this? at this point the BT connect to an iPhone that worked flawlessly for several years is useless.


Yes, I've had similar Bluetooth problems too with recent versions. I did find a duplicate pairing in my phone for the car. Deleted both and re-paired it. Somewhat better now but still acting up.


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## MelindaV (Apr 2, 2016)

tivoboy said:


> I have to say, as much as this said it should have helped the Bluetooth issues, it seems to have introduce significantly BAD Bluetooth issues where the phone now won't stay connected for more than 60 seconds, the disconnects and reconnects and repeats this over and over again in a loop endlessly. I've tried unpairing and re-pairing the phone several times, no help. anyone have any idea how to solve this? at this point the BT connect to an iPhone that worked flawlessly for several years is useless.


no issues at all here (iPhone X). 
Obviously have not been driving as often as previously, but have gone out a few times with this release (dual purpose of taking the puppy for a few mile drive, since my last dog hated being in a car, and to find a few lights and stop signs) and getting in the car & the in-car Bluetooth all worked normally.
If you've not yet, forget the current bluetooth connections & phone-as-key, restart the phone and reconnect the connections.


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## ihomer (Apr 17, 2018)

The only issue I have with the stop light and stop sign thing is when I am driving on a divided highway with a speed limit of 55mph my car wants to stop when it sees a 'do not enter' sign in the median.
My drive to work on the highway is about 20 miles and there are probably 50 of those signs on my way to work and it wants to slow down when it sees 3 to 5 of them per trip.


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## khorton (Aug 20, 2019)

littlD said:


> You can turn it off while driving (need to disengage TACC and Autopilot).
> 
> After that, you're right. You can't re-enable it until you're in Park.


You can create a new Profile with this feature enabled, and switch back and forth between Profiles while driving to turn the feature off and on.


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## tivoboy (Mar 24, 2017)

TetonTesla said:


> Yes, I've had similar Bluetooth problems too with recent versions. I did find a duplicate pairing in my phone for the car. Deleted both and re-paired it. Somewhat better now but still acting up.


Yes, I've tried deleting all bluetooth connections and re-pairing, but sadly I get the same results. I'll try re-pairing my note 10+ and see if that may be different


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## bwilson4web (Mar 4, 2019)

Well that was weird:

Approached the car and it was "relay clack" powered off.
Everything started up normally, unplugged and ran my errand.
At WholeFoods, the ChargePoint wouldn't put on a charge. Found the 'scheduled departure' was turned ON. Once cleared, charging was normal. Normally a scheduled departure works only at home. I thought I'd turned it off.
Headed to sandwich place (Arby's) with coupon and was pleased to see car passing through green lights. Huh? Discovered the Autopilot enabled Stop light was turned off.
Verified that "Driver settings" allow on-the-fly swap between two states.
Bob Wilson


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## StromTrooperM3 (Mar 27, 2019)

So multiple reports of being able to "edge up" when stopped at a red light. I tested again last night and as soon as I tapped the pedal at a red light that the car automatically stopped for, it proceeded to go through the red light. So in all my testing so far, hitting the pedal or stalk at a red light will allow the car to proceed through


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## ibgeek (Aug 26, 2019)

StromTrooperM3 said:


> So multiple reports of being able to "edge up" when stopped at a red light. I tested again last night and as soon as I tapped the pedal at a red light that the car automatically stopped for, it proceeded to go through the red light. So in all my testing so far, hitting the pedal or stalk at a red light will allow the car to proceed through


You can edge up, but you must not pass the red limit line and you must do so while the light is still red. Just did it again several times this morning.


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## StromTrooperM3 (Mar 27, 2019)

ibgeek said:


> but you must not pass the red limit line


Ah ok maybe that was my issue.

I'm also seeing double stop signs kinda overlapping on the screen... Not a big deal it was like this right after hw3 was installed and seems to come and go. Will try to post next drive


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## RichEV (Sep 21, 2017)

Looks like 12.6 has stopped rolling out and 12.11.* has started. I haven't seen any 12.6 -> 12.11.* upgrades yet on teslafi. Maybe some sort of A/B testing?


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## M3OC Rules (Nov 18, 2016)

ibgeek said:


> You can edge up, but you must not pass the red limit line and you must do so while the light is still red. Just did it again several times this morning.


I haven't tried this yet but why the heck are they messing around with this kind of thing? How many people see this as a driving aid in its current form? Trying to figure out how far you can inch up before the car goes through a light? The point is so you can see if it's clear but you have to watch the screen so you don't cross the line? What am I missing?


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## StromTrooperM3 (Mar 27, 2019)

M3OC Rules said:


> How many people see this as a driving aid in its current form?


This isn't an aid it's a nuisance in it's current state. I'm sure there is some legislation that Tesla needs to prove an extremely high light validation state. This is 100% Tesla using us for data collectors. But the more people use it the quicker it will become an aid.

That being said due to their stance on safety features being standard. I'm not aware of any other brand that will stop you from running a red light. Sure seems like it should be safety and not FSD


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## ibgeek (Aug 26, 2019)

M3OC Rules said:


> I haven't tried this yet but why the heck are they messing around with this kind of thing? How many people see this as a driving aid in its current form? Trying to figure out how far you can inch up before the car goes through a light? The point is so you can see if it's clear but you have to watch the screen so you don't cross the line? What am I missing?


It's beta software, and vary early at that. But this fact is not hidden from us. They put it in the documentation. Lane changes were as bad as this when they first released that feature. Now you don't even think about doing them. 
This feature configuration is part of a necessary progression. Don't expect it to be like this for very long.


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## M3OC Rules (Nov 18, 2016)

ibgeek said:


> This feature configuration is part of a necessary progression. Don't expect it to be like this for very long.


I hope you're right but I guess I'm having trouble seeing why they added this inch up feature if it's not going to be very long. What data do you think they are getting with this stopping feature that they can't get without this in its current form? Using your example lane changes its much more obvious. If the car makes a lane change it will have false negatives that can be found by a person overriding it. Similarly here they could look for overrides if the car decides to drive into an intersection when it shouldn't. But it's not making any decisions. I get the safety implications and maybe that's not an option at this point but then why are they doing this other than to let us have something to play with. Or does it have something to do with appeasing regulators?



StromTrooperM3 said:


> This is 100% Tesla using us for data collectors. But the more people use it the quicker it will become an aid.


What data does this get them?


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## StromTrooperM3 (Mar 27, 2019)

M3OC Rules said:


> What data does this get them?


Human verification if the car made the right decision or not. I'm sure they are tracking every light, the cars decision, and the humans decision and seeing if they line up


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## ibgeek (Aug 26, 2019)

M3OC Rules said:


> I hope you're right but I guess I'm having trouble seeing why they added this inch up feature if it's not going to be very long. What data do you think they are getting with this stopping feature that they can't get without this in its current form? Using your example lane changes its much more obvious. If the car makes a lane change it will have false negatives that can be found by a person overriding it. Similarly here they could look for overrides if the car decides to drive into an intersection when it shouldn't. But it's not making any decisions. I get the safety implications and maybe that's not an option at this point but then why are they doing this other than to let us have something to play with. Or does it have something to do with appeasing regulators?
> 
> What data does this get them?


Even if you run in shadow mode there are hardware layers that haven't been tested. Simulations get them 90% there but you need to actually see things like stopping distances and reaction times in real world driving to get the last 10%.


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## FRC (Aug 4, 2018)

It's been a while since I've driven into Atlanta, but I did today. I'm on 12.6 and I have always had "use HOV" lanes enabled. For the first time today while in NOA, the car would move left on it's own into to HOV lane. Great! However, there is an issue. Around here HOVs are demarcated by a double line. If the double line is solid, entry(and exit) is illegal. If the lane is dashed, entry is permitted. In it's current form, the car will enter and exit whenever it damn well pleases. Also, it wanted to go left into the HOV when my exit was 1.5 miles ahead and 5 lanes to my right. So, good news that the car finally recognizes HOVs, buy significant refinement is needed.


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## StromTrooperM3 (Mar 27, 2019)

FRC said:


> If the double line is solid, entry(and exit) is illegal. If the lane is dashed, entry is permitted.


Driving in Canada earlier this year on the QEW the HOV lane is a significant distance (about a lane or more of dead space) away from the non HOV lanes and the car lost track of the rest of the highway and made the nav all screwy wanting to get back onto the regular lanes that it wasn't displaying. It definitely needs some work


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## Unplugged (Apr 5, 2016)

FRC said:


> It's been a while since I've driven into Atlanta, but I did today. I'm on 12.6 and I have always had "use HOV" lanes enabled. For the first time today while in NOA, the car would move left on it's own into to HOV lane. Great! However, there is an issue. Around here HOVs are demarcated by a double line. If the double line is solid, entry(and exit) is illegal. If the lane is dashed, entry is permitted. In it's current form, the car will enter and exit whenever it damn well pleases. Also, it wanted to go left into the HOV when my exit was 1.5 miles ahead and 5 lanes to my right. So, good news that the car finally recognizes HOVs, buy significant refinement is needed.


Oddly enough, I've never had a problem with that in Southern California. The car always waits until there is a hash line to move out of the HOV or into the HOV lane. We use the same double yellow or double white, now, to demarc the HOV lanes.


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## ibgeek (Aug 26, 2019)

Your car should NEVER cross a solid white line. That's hard coded in the AP architecture. If it is crossing white lines, then that is a serious bug that needs to be reported ASAP.

I noticed yesterday that my car too a high occupancy exit while on NOA. That was a new one for me. But It waited until the lane was accessible before it entered. Didn't cross the double whites.


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## Long Ranger (Jun 1, 2018)

ibgeek said:


> Your car should NEVER cross a solid white line. That's hard coded in the AP architecture. If it is crossing white lines, then that is a serious bug that needs to be reported ASAP.


I don't agree about AP being hard coded to never cross a solid white line. I regularly initiate auto lane change in and out of an HOV lane across a single solid white line. It shouldn't cross double lines, but it will cross a single line in some circumstances.


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## ibgeek (Aug 26, 2019)

Technically in the US, although it is not ever enforced, vehicle code states that you shall not make a lane change or otherwise cross over a single white line.


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## DocScott (Mar 6, 2019)

ibgeek said:


> Technically in the US, although it is not ever enforced, vehicle code states that you shall not make a lane change or otherwise cross over a single white line.


That's not universally true in the US. For example, page 3-9 of the Washington State DOL Handbook says "A soild white line between lanes of traffic means that you should stay in your lane unless a special situation requires you to change lanes."


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## Long Ranger (Jun 1, 2018)

DocScott said:


> That's not universally true in the US. For example, page 3-9 of the Washington State DOL Handbook says "A soild white line between lanes of traffic means that you should stay in your lane unless a special situation requires you to change lanes."


Exactly. The HOV lanes I was talking about have a continuous solid white line for the entire length of the lane. The lane would be useless if you couldn't cross the solid line.


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## ibgeek (Aug 26, 2019)

Long Ranger said:


> Exactly. The HOV lanes I was talking about have a continuous solid white line for the entire length of the lane. The lane would be useless if you couldn't cross the solid line.


Well hell... Imagine how amazing this country would be if we could be consistent at anything. :| Cross a solid white line in to a HOV lane in CA and you're getting a massive ticket.


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## NR4P (Jul 14, 2018)

shareef777 said:


> Its hit or miss for me. Sometimes it works, others it doesn't. It's why on days that I'm in a hurry I grab my keyfob.


Assuming you have a case on your phone, try removing the case before you approach the car. Does this help the unlocking and staying connected?


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## SimonMatthews (Apr 20, 2018)

ibgeek said:


> Well hell... Imagine how amazing this country would be if we could be consistent at anything. :| Cross a solid white line in to a HOV lane in CA and you're getting a massive ticket.


Nope. Many of the carpool lanes on on-ramps have no way to enter them except by crossing a single solid white line. It's the double white lines that you are not allowed to cross.


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## TeslaTony310 (Jan 15, 2020)

ibgeek said:


> Technically in the US, although it is not ever enforced, vehicle code states that you shall not make a lane change or otherwise cross over a single white line.


This is false, and what evidence do you have that it's coded into the static rules of the AP stack??


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## ibgeek (Aug 26, 2019)

US Department of transportation offers guidelines for each state in hopes of keeping road safety regulations consistent state to state. I made an assumption (incorrectly) that all states followed said guideline with regards to crossing over white lines based on the states that I have observed this regulation in. And I actually got a ticket for crossing a single white line in CA many years ago. 

I am not prepared to provide any evidence regarding my comments about AP. If this disqualifies my information in your eyes, I can live with that.  
Some things I can say, some I can't. I'll leave it at that.


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## Unplugged (Apr 5, 2016)

ibgeek said:


> Technically in the US, although it is not ever enforced, vehicle code states that you shall not make a lane change or otherwise cross over a single white line.


This has been an ongoing discussion between my brother and I. There is no vehicle code section that prohibits crossing a solid white line. (At least in California.) In fact, on surface streets, it is often necessary to cross a solid white line when moving into a turn lane because of traffic situations. Of course, this doesn't stop some highway patrol cops from ticketing. But still, it is a bogus ticket without any support in the vehicle code.

In my area, there are fairly long stretches of carpool lanes with only a single solid line. In some places, the double yellow or white lines were removed and replaced with a single line. I suspect that the solid white line is a "suggestion" that cars avoid crossing, rather than a command.

If someone from some state finds a vehicle code reference to a solid white line, I would love to read it.

EDIT: Oh, here's a good article about solid white lines in California. The rest of the world can take some satisfaction regarding the total confusion California has about a simple solid line. https://www.mercurynews.com/2012/09/28/can-you-cross-a-solid-white-line-on-a-california-road/


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## SimonMatthews (Apr 20, 2018)

Unplugged said:


> This has been an ongoing discussion between my brother and I. There is no vehicle code section that prohibits crossing a solid white line. (At least in California.) In fact, on surface streets, it is often necessary to cross a solid white line when moving into a turn lane because of traffic situations. Of course, this doesn't stop some highway patrol cops from ticketing. But still, it is a bogus ticket without any support in the vehicle code.
> 
> In my area, there are fairly long stretches of carpool lanes with only a single solid line. In some places, the double yellow or white lines were removed and replaced with a single line. I suspect that the solid white line is a "suggestion" that cars avoid crossing, rather than a command.
> 
> ...


Just ask any of the people who say it is illegal to cross a single white line, how does one enter a carpool on ramp in the SF Bay Area? Most of them require you to cross a single white line.


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## JWardell (May 9, 2016)

The national vehicle code is the MUTCD. It only describes white lines as lines in the same direction of travel. No passing lines for opposite direction must be double yellow lines.
Because some states have been too lazy to update their road paint in 40 years, it is most definitely not illegal to cross a solid white line.

https://mutcd.fhwa.dot.gov/htm/2009r1r2/part3/part3b.htm


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