# Level-2 chargers



## francoisp

Level-2 chargers, those with a power output of 7.6 kwh are useless as far as I am concerned and companies need to stop adding them. They provide just about 25 miles of charge per hour. Who are the target customers? Those charging their car at home don't need them and others will find them way too slow and not necessarily well located for their needs. In the infrastructure plan for ev charging, I hope that a minimum power output of 50 kwh will be considered.


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## shareef777

Seems pretty useful for malls and restaurants. You’ll be there a minimum of an hour which should be enough charge to offset your commute home.

Those charging their cars at home will find ANY charging station useless 99% of the time. And in the rare occasion it’s needed, a 25mi charge should be enough to get home to charge up over night.

I hope the infrastructure plan includes provisions for condo/apartment owners. Right now an HOA or landlord dictate to people wether they can get a charging solution where they park overnight.


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## francoisp

Have you ever felt *the absolute need* to charge at one of them at a mall? I never did. I tried one for fun to see how it worked and to test that my Chargepoint account was in good order but that's it. These stations are underpowered. We should only be installing the more powerful DC 50kw chargers.


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## francoisp

shareef777 said:


> I hope the infrastructure plan includes provisions for condo/apartment owners. Right now an HOA or landlord dictate to people wether they can get a charging solution where they park overnight.


The condo issue is universal in cities like Montreal. The problem is having enough chargers so that tenants who want to charge can charge. But how do you figure out the optimal number of charging units for a 200 car condo parking? How do you penalize tenants who leave their car plugged in but not charging? And how do you bill the tenants? No wonder HOA stay away from that.

I think the best and maybe only solution is to have a bunch of charging stations nearby managed by Chargepoint or Tesla but with powerful DC chargers not the crappy level-2 chargers.


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## shareef777

But we’re already there. Tesla SC are pretty prevalent everywhere and ChargePoint, EA, and EVgo are starting to spread just as wide.

From a personal preference, charging overnight at home is the only viable option. If I couldn’t do that I’d go back to an ICE vehicle in a heartbeat. I’ve charged locally at a SC a handful of times the past couple years. IF that was my only charging option I’d bail on EVs instantly. Even if the L3 charging station was just down the street from me.


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## francoisp

Earlier this summer I took a 14,000 mile road trip and visited 27 national parks. Getting to my destination each day was easy because superchargers are now ubiquitous. My main issue and complain was that once I arrived at my destination it was often difficult to recharge in a adequate amount of time to get ready to explore. My solution was to do car camping and stay in RV parks and recharge overnight. That worked out because I was by myself (my wife was still worried about covid and did not join me). But that's not a good solution for most. Some hotels, often expensive ones, offer destination charging but that usually means one or two chargers and out West there are tons of Teslas so these chargers are often occupied. In town I saw mostly level-2 chargers but who wants to leave his car all night charging on some street in an unknown part of town? It's time that cities, small, medium and large, start adopting the more powerful chargers. And it's time for Tesla to give us a CCS adapter.


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## garsh

francoisp said:


> Have you ever felt *the absolute need* to charge at one of them at a mall?


Caveat: I agree with your premise. L2 charging makes sense at locations where you'll be parked for several hours at a time: home, work, hotels, airports.
Heck, I think airports should just install L1 charging, since my car will be there for several DAYS.

That said, I _have_ had a few instances where an L2 station at a store saved my butt (moreso when I owned a Nissan Leaf, but I also had such a situation recently with my Tesla). So I'm not _totally_ against them. Sure, 50kW stations would be better, but that's a HUGE jump in cost for the hosting company.


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## francoisp

garsh said:


> Sure, 50kW stations would be better, but that's a HUGE jump in cost for the hosting company.


I agree, however these would be so much more practical for everyone considering that a 30-minute stop would provide a 25 kw charge. Future subsidies should only go towards fast DC chargers.


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## Ed Woodrick

francoisp said:


> Level-2 chargers, those with a power output of 7.6 kwh are useless as far as I am concerned and companies need to stop adding them. They provide just about 25 miles of charge per hour. Who are the target customers? Those charging their car at home don't need them and others will find them way too slow and not necessarily well located for their needs. In the infrastructure plan for ev charging, I hope that a minimum power output of 50 kwh will be considered.


What did a L2 charger do to upset you so much?

L2 chargers have their place, and EVs would not be as great without them. 
Granted, restaurants, grocery stores and malls probably aren't the best place for them, but they happen to me more L2 chargers in use at people's home than anything else. They are also great for hotels and offices. Anywhere where you stay for 3 or more hours are prime candidates for L2 chargers.

As @garsh indicates, if you are staying somewhere for over 24 hours, then L1 is the best option. L2 at airports is a terrible idea. Because if you are gone for 5 days, you block it. We've got a long term parking that has probably 50 120V 20A plugs along a wall for EVs. On a 5 day trip, I generally finished charging after 24 hours, but don't feel bad hogging the plug.

There are L1, L2, and L3 charging solutions for 3 very different reasons. They are each valid and if you put the wrong one in the wrong place, the results are less than desirable.

A DC Fast charger at home? Nice, but stupidly expensive (and you can't get the power for it anyway)
A l1 plug at a grocery store? I burn more energy plugging the car in!
A L2 charger along the Interstate? It would make travel impossible.

L1 or L2 chargers are home or work are great solutions. Yes, L1 is a viable solution. (Stayed in a hotel in Ft Lauderdale for a week, by the end of the week, We got out during the day as well, we were full and didn't need to stop at the Supercharger nearby)

L2 chargers are a little better than L1, but when you look at the cost, you have to weigh the benefits. Which would you rather have at work, a row of 50 L1 plugs or 4 L2 plugs (where you have to move the car to let others charge)? The pricing is amazingly similar.

L3 charger are best for the road, places where you are going to go beyond the range of your battery.


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## shareef777

Ed Woodrick said:


> What did a L2 charger do to upset you so much?
> 
> L2 chargers have their place, and EVs would not be as great without them.
> Granted, restaurants, grocery stores and malls probably aren't the best place for them, but they happen to me more L2 chargers in use at people's home than anything else. They are also great for hotels and offices. Anywhere where you stay for 3 or more hours are prime candidates for L2 chargers.
> 
> As @garsh indicates, if you are staying somewhere for over 24 hours, then L1 is the best option. L2 at airports is a terrible idea. Because if you are gone for 5 days, you block it. We've got a long term parking that has probably 50 120V 20A plugs along a wall for EVs. On a 5 day trip, I generally finished charging after 24 hours, but don't feel bad hogging the plug.
> 
> There are L1, L2, and L3 charging solutions for 3 very different reasons. They are each valid and if you put the wrong one in the wrong place, the results are less than desirable.
> 
> A DC Fast charger at home? Nice, but stupidly expensive (and you can't get the power for it anyway)
> A l1 plug at a grocery store? I burn more energy plugging the car in!
> A L2 charger along the Interstate? It would make travel impossible.
> 
> L1 or L2 chargers are home or work are great solutions. Yes, L1 is a viable solution. (Stayed in a hotel in Ft Lauderdale for a week, by the end of the week, We got out during the day as well, we were full and didn't need to stop at the Supercharger nearby)
> 
> L2 chargers are a little better than L1, but when you look at the cost, you have to weigh the benefits. Which would you rather have at work, a row of 50 L1 plugs or 4 L2 plugs (where you have to move the car to let others charge)? The pricing is amazingly similar.
> 
> L3 charger are best for the road, places where you are going to go beyond the range of your battery.


Additionally, with the price of ONE 50kW station you can likely provide over a dozen L2 chargers. If L2 chargers were more ubiquitous, essentially in every commercial parking lot (shopping centers like Target/Walmart/Costco/Walgreens/CVS/etc) then everyone would be able to drive around and continually plug in to add a bit of charge (if needed). I feel like L3 chargers are best suited for just off the highway for long distance commuters (ie, road trips).

Also, 100% agree on the L1 charging solution for airport parking. Even that was too much when I forgot to drop my charge rate to 80% after I parked our Y 😂


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## Long Ranger

All in favor of more fast DC chargers. However, when traveling, there are definitely a number of scenarios where I’d like to be able to plug in without returning to my car in 30 minutes. Thinking of dinner, movies, concerts, plays, sporting events, sightseeing, hiking, overnight parking in public garages, etc.


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## Ed Woodrick

shareef777 said:


> Additionally, with the price of ONE 50kW station you can likely provide over a dozen L2 chargers. If L2 chargers were more ubiquitous, essentially in every commercial parking lot (shopping centers like Target/Walmart/Costco/Walgreens/CVS/etc) then everyone would be able to drive around and continually plug in to add a bit of charge (if needed). I feel like L3 chargers are best suited for just off the highway for long distance commuters (ie, road trips).


I don't agree with L2 at the locations you indicated. They generally sit there and waste away. 
Just yesterday we stopped at a grocery store and thought about plugging into the J-1772. Decided not to, because we wouldn't get enough charge to make it worthwhile. And that's saying a lot for someone who currently only has L1 charging at home.
The reason why we would have plugged it? The locations are really near the front door.

ONCE, we have stopped at the pug because we needed to. We weren't sure it we were going to make the DC charger, it was still about 10 miles away.


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## shareef777

Ed Woodrick said:


> I don't agree with L2 at the locations you indicated. They generally sit there and waste away.
> Just yesterday we stopped at a grocery store and thought about plugging into the J-1772. Decided not to, because we wouldn't get enough charge to make it worthwhile. And that's saying a lot for someone who currently only has L1 charging at home.
> The reason why we would have plugged it? The locations are really near the front door.
> 
> ONCE, we have stopped at the pug because we needed to. We weren't sure it we were going to make the DC charger, it was still about 10 miles away.


The idea is that they'd be mostly leveraged by owners that don't have any home charging solution. Someone with even a L1 home solution likely wouldn't find it beneficial. But someone living in a condo/apartment without any charging would likely benefit from being able to get charging here and there.


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## francoisp

Ed Woodrick said:


> What did a L2 charger do to upset you so much?
> 
> L2 chargers have their place, and EVs would not be as great without them.
> Granted, restaurants, grocery stores and malls probably aren't the best place for them, but they happen to me more L2 chargers in use at people's home than anything else. They are also great for hotels and offices. Anywhere where you stay for 3 or more hours are prime candidates for L2 chargers.
> 
> As @garsh indicates, if you are staying somewhere for over 24 hours, then L1 is the best option. L2 at airports is a terrible idea. Because if you are gone for 5 days, you block it. We've got a long term parking that has probably 50 120V 20A plugs along a wall for EVs. On a 5 day trip, I generally finished charging after 24 hours, but don't feel bad hogging the plug.
> 
> There are L1, L2, and L3 charging solutions for 3 very different reasons. They are each valid and if you put the wrong one in the wrong place, the results are less than desirable.
> 
> A DC Fast charger at home? Nice, but stupidly expensive (and you can't get the power for it anyway)
> A l1 plug at a grocery store? I burn more energy plugging the car in!
> A L2 charger along the Interstate? It would make travel impossible.
> 
> L1 or L2 chargers are home or work are great solutions. Yes, L1 is a viable solution. (Stayed in a hotel in Ft Lauderdale for a week, by the end of the week, We got out during the day as well, we were full and didn't need to stop at the Supercharger nearby)
> 
> L2 chargers are a little better than L1, but when you look at the cost, you have to weigh the benefits. Which would you rather have at work, a row of 50 L1 plugs or 4 L2 plugs (where you have to move the car to let others charge)? The pricing is amazingly similar.
> 
> L3 charger are best for the road, places where you are going to go beyond the range of your battery.


Obviously I am not talking about home chargers. That's probably the only good use for l2 chargers as far as I am concerned.

Regarding l1 chargers they're so slow that for a 8-hour work shift one would be gaining something like 45 miles if Sentry is off. That's 15% of a 300 mile battery. For most people it won't make a difference.

And I can't see airport providing charging to everyone for free once volume picks up. A valet service that would rapid-charge the car before my arrival might be something I would consider.

What I truly dislike about adding l2 chargers in the cities is that it provides a false sense that we are electrifying the country but it's not really addressing the actual need of charging fast and be gone.


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## Ed Woodrick

shareef777 said:


> The idea is that they'd be mostly leveraged by owners that don't have any home charging solution. Someone with even a L1 home solution likely wouldn't find it beneficial. But someone living in a condo/apartment without any charging would likely benefit from being able to get charging here and there.


As someone who had a 88 mile range Leaf, the locations were useful. But with a 300+ mile Tesla, the locations are questionable. If I don't have charging at home or work, then I'm going to have to rely on Superchargers.

If you don't have decent access to one of the above, then an EV may not be the best solution for you. (unless your commute is 50 miles per week)

We've got some at standalone drug stores. Who is going to spend an hour in a CVS?


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## francoisp

shareef777 said:


> I feel like L3 chargers are best suited for just off the higy for long distance commuters (ie, road trips).


I disagree completely. We need l3 chargers everywhere. When I take a trip and get to my destination, I want to be able to charge quickly so I can go on with my business. With L2 chargers I can't do that.

Regarding having a bunch of l2 chargers instead of a few l3 chargers, let me ask you: how many more supercharger stalls would Tesla need if power output was limited to 50 kw as opposed to 150 kw? A ton more because cars would sit charging a lot longer.


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## shareef777

francoisp said:


> I disagree completely. We need l3 chargers everywhere. When I take a trip and get to my destination, I want to be able to charge quickly so I can go on with my business. With L2 chargers I can't do that.
> 
> Regarding having a bunch of l2 chargers instead of a few l3 chargers, let me ask you: how many more supercharger stalls would Tesla need if power output was limited to 50 kw as opposed to 150 kw? A ton more because cars would sit charging a lot longer.


Well the premise is that you'd be charging everywhere your car is stopped. I live in the southwest suburbs of Chicago. All the L3 chargers are nowhere to be found by us (closest one 10mi out). There's a few L2 chargers that're always occupied. Odds are it'd be easier/cheaper to just expand the number of L2 chargers in the various businesses around here then trying to get a single L3 lot in the middle of the burbs that'd likely be limited to just a handful of stalls anyway.


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## francoisp

shareef777 said:


> Well the premise is that you'd be charging everywhere your car is stopped. I live in the southwest suburbs of Chicago. All the L3 chargers are nowhere to be found by us (closest one 10mi out). There's a few L2 chargers that're always occupied. Odds are it'd be easier/cheaper to just expand the number of L2 chargers in the various businesses around here then trying to get a single L3 lot in the middle of the burbs that'd likely be limited to just a handful of stalls anyway.


Honestly, who needs to charge their car everywhere with a range around 300 miles? This might have been true 5 years ago but not anymore.

With l3 chargers, people are done charging quickly so other drivers can take their place as opposed to monopolizing a l2 charger for hours.


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## shareef777

francoisp said:


> Honestly, who needs to charge their car everywhere with a range around 300 miles? This might have been true 5 years ago but not anymore.
> 
> With l3 chargers, people are done charging quickly so other drivers can take their place as opposed to monopolizing a l2 charger for hours.


People that don't have a charger at home? I get that SC and DC fast chargers (those >150kW) will be the answer for practically for everyone, but I was discussing the idea of expanding 50kW chargers. Those are just simply too slow to be useful (considering they're usually right off highways where most people who stay in town don't go) and require too much cost/effort to have installed/expanded. IMHO that time/money would be better spent deploying L2 chargers closer to where people/cars spend most of their time parked.


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## SoFlaModel3

francoisp said:


> Level-2 chargers, those with a power output of 7.6 kwh are useless as far as I am concerned and companies need to stop adding them. They provide just about 25 miles of charge per hour. Who are the target customers? Those charging their car at home don't need them and others will find them way too slow and not necessarily well located for their needs. In the infrastructure plan for ev charging, I hope that a minimum power output of 50 kwh will be considered.


Great at hotels


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## Klaus-rf

Ed Woodrick said:


> Who is going to spend an hour in a CVS?


Employees of the CVS (and neighboring businesses).


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## Klaus-rf

francoisp said:


> We need l3 chargers everywhere.


You *want* L3 everywhere, you don't need them. And they are at some issues with DCFC's:

-Connector type and max power
-Cost- AT LEAST 10x a L2 charger (for 50KW DCFC, 20x for a 150KW+ DCFC)
Not to mention the additional wiring and power supply costs, coordination with the power company, water-cooled cables, etc .
- Not just anybody can install a DCFC. MUCH more difficult than just running 8 or 10ga in conduit for a 240VAC outlet.

Sorting out charging infrastructure (while the EV population isn't even close to mature yet) is gonna take some time and planning. We've had petrol stations for more than 100 years now and they have changed dramatically over the past 6 or so decades. I recall when stinky diesel wasn't readily available and you had to hunt for it - or go far, far away to a truck stop. Now the stinky oil burner feeders are everywhere (both truck stops and regular "fillin' stations" now have diesel).

Anyone recall the Unleaded petrol issue in late 1974? When all the [US] new cars had catalytic converters and couldn't use leaded? With only a handful of unleaded nozzles in the country? All the stations had was leaded fuels (and most no diesel). That took years to install unleaded vs leaded pumps, tanks, etc. And the large versus small nozzles. Fun times. Now all we have is unleaded (and stinky diesel)

I suggest the first thing we need to decide upon (and mandate) is ONE connector type for DCFC. Or a whole bunch of adapters that are required to come with every EV. I can see some vehicles coming with multiple connector ports.

The power companies and high-power electricians are gonna love laving L3 chargers everywhere. Cha-Ching!!


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## francoisp

Klaus-rf said:


> You *want* L3 everywhere, you don't need them. And they are at some issues with DCFC's:
> 
> -Connector type and max power
> -Cost- AT LEAST 10x a L2 charger (for 50KW DCFC, 20x for a 150KW+ DCFC)
> Not to mention the additional wiring and power supply costs, coordination with the power company, water-cooled cables, etc .
> - Not just anybody can install a DCFC. MUCH more difficult than just running 8 or 10ga in conduit for a 240VAC outlet.


We should install l3 chargers instead l2's. We need less l3's because they charge much faster than l2's. Why can't we have l3's along with a Tesla CCS adapter? Telsa designed one for Europe and rumor has it there's one already for North America. One plug standard for America? That's not the way this country works, unfortunately. Cost wise, if Tesla can install 250 kw superchargers and charge 25 cents a kw, surely other companies can install 50kw l3 chargers and charge as much. Installing l2 chargers is easy but lazy.


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## Ed Woodrick

francoisp said:


> Obviously I am not talking about home chargers. That's probably the only good use for l2 chargers as far as I am concerned.
> 
> Regarding l1 chargers they're so slow that for a 8-hour work shift one would be gaining something like 45 miles if Sentry is off. That's 15% of a 300 mile battery. For most people it won't make a difference.
> 
> And I can't see airport providing charging to everyone for free once volume picks up. A valet service that would rapid-charge the car before my arrival might be something I would consider.
> 
> What I truly dislike about adding l2 chargers in the cities is that it provides a false sense that we are electrifying the country but it's not really addressing the actual need of charging fast and be gone.


So for the majority of the folks, a L1 charger is just perfect if you can get 45 miles at work. Most people work within that range (20 miles) from their home. If you charge at home as well, then you are probably talking 100 miles per day!

Valet is the most expensive solution to the problem. L1 charging is extremely cheap. You can put in a LOT of 120V plugs for the cost of a single DC charger. I wouldn't be surprised if it was 100 to 1. And you don't get the cost of a team of valets. We have one parking location that does it. I've heard a number of stories that the valet didn't put their car on the charger.

As people start to understand EVs, they'll start to realize that L2 charges at retail locations isn't a great solution. At a number of our malls, Simon has installed a mix of L3 and L2 chargers. That's okay, but they tend to put them close to the entrances, so they get ICE'd. 
But they are learning. A number of business have installed some for their employees. In dense areas, parking garages and lots are starting to learn.


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## webe3owners

8 KW units are super useful for restaurants, golf courses, hotels, malls, gyms, hospitals and on and on. For work places half that speed or even slower is super useful. If it doesn’t work for you don’t use them. But people who can’t charge at home can make great use of them. Inexpensive to install and don’t need a large breaker.

Jmho.


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## shareef777

francoisp said:


> We should install l3 chargers instead l2's. We need less l3's because they charge much faster than l2's. Why can't we have l3's along with a Tesla CCS adapter? Telsa designed one for Europe and rumor has it there's one already for North America. One plug standard for America? That's not the way this country works, unfortunately. Cost wise, if Tesla can install 250 kw superchargers and charge 25 cents a kw, surely other companies can install 50kw l3 chargers and charge as much. Installing l2 chargers is easy but lazy.


Thing is L3 is REALLY expensive to implement. They'll be so far and few in between that they'll HAVE to deploy them to the edge of towns by highways. L2 is so cheap that I'm looking to get a second one because of the inconvenience of moving plugs around 😂

Imagine what a commercial business can afford to put in.


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## francoisp

shareef777 said:


> Thing is L3 is REALLY expensive to implement. They'll be so far and few in between that they'll HAVE to deploy them to the edge of towns by highways. L2 is so cheap that I'm looking to get a second one because of the inconvenience of moving plugs around 😂
> 
> Imagine what a commercial business can afford to put in.


Your comment about l3 chargers does not match my experience, at least in Canada. There are several l3's in my wife's hometown that I can't use because they're CCS. There are also a number of l2 chargers which are way to slow to charge. I had to leave my car plugged in and unattended for 7 hours to add 50% charge.

My point in all this is that l2 chargers, other than at home and maybe hotels, are too underpowered to provide a useful amount of energy in a reasonable amount of time. We would be better served having access to l3 chargers everywhere even if there are less of them because the turnaround time will be much shorter. We need to replicate the "gas station" model in cities with l3 chargers.

Tesla has done a great job connecting the metropolitan areas and now we need to handle the inner cities with fast l3 chargers.


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## shareef777

francoisp said:


> Your comment about l3 chargers does not match my experience, at least in Canada. There are several l3's in my wife's hometown that I can't use because they're CCS. There are also a number of l2 chargers which are way to slow to charge. I had to leave my car plugged in and unattended for 7 hours to add 50% charge.
> 
> My point in all this is that l2 chargers, other than at home and maybe hotels, are too underpowered to provide a useful amount of energy in a reasonable amount of time. We would be better served having access to l3 chargers everywhere even if there are less of them because the turnaround time will be much shorter. We need to replicate the "gas station" model in cities with l3 chargers.
> 
> Tesla has done a great job connecting the metropolitan areas and now we need to handle the inner cities with fast l3 chargers.


I'm in total agreement with you regarding 30A L2 chargers. There's no place for those, and the minimal cost of bumping up the wires and breaker to 60A would more then remediate that. Your 7 hours for 50% would have been cut in half.


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## francoisp

shareef777 said:


> I'm in total agreement with you regarding 30A L2 chargers. There's no place for those, and the minimal cost of bumping up the wires and breaker to 60A would more then remediate that. Your 7 hours for 50% would have been cut in half.


If Tesla would finally release the CCS adapter I could do it in 1 hour while getting lunch or shopping. 😡


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## Klaus-rf

francoisp said:


> If Tesla would finally release the CCS adapter I could do it in 1 hour while getting lunch or shopping. 😡


And then hope and pray you find an available, working CCS station??

Destination and shopping center chargers aren't intended to give everyone that shows up a full tank. Odds are that the 30+ miles provided by a short time at a L2 charger is more than the distance you drove to the mall.


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## francoisp

Klaus-rf said:


> And then hope and pray you find an available, working CCS station??


That's a US centric response.

There are hundreds of 50kw (or more) CCS stations in Canada conveniently located in cities, small and large. Unfortunately without an adapter we can't use them.


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## Klaus-rf

francoisp said:


> That's a US centric response.
> 
> There are hundreds of 50kw (or more) CCS stations in Canada conveniently located in cities, small and large. Unfortunately without an adapter we can't use them.


There are also hundreds in the USofA, but most don't work properly for cars WITH CCS ports. And there aren't many stalls at the assorted charging stations yet. CCS chargers around here are a very haphazard collection of installations with poor functionality and zero maintenance. I wouldn't bet my life on them working well enough for a multi-state journey. In my assorted journeys I've only personally met one non-functional Tesla SC stall and the smallest installation I've visited had six stalls, the largest had 24 V3 SCs (250KW) and 24 L2 stalls.


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## shareef777

Klaus-rf said:


> There are also hundreds in the USofA, but most don't work properly for cars WITH CCS ports. And there aren't many stalls at the assorted charging stations yet. CCS chargers around here are a very haphazard collection of installations with poor functionality and zero maintenance. I wouldn't bet my life on them working well enough for a multi-state journey. In my assorted journeys I've only personally met one non-functional Tesla SC stall and the smallest installation I've visited had six stalls, the largest had 24 V3 SCs (250KW) and 24 L2 stalls.


Honestly, even the L2 chargers are just as problematic. I've gone to plenty of malls and other shopping centers that will have only two that are both out of order.

Though I have yet to find a destination charger out of commission.


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## Ed Woodrick

francoisp said:


> That's a US centric response.
> 
> There are hundreds of 50kw (or more) CCS stations in Canada conveniently located in cities, small and large. Unfortunately without an adapter we can't use them.


And I just looked at Superchargers vs CCS on Plugshare. There seems to be roughly the same number located in similar locations.
No charge is usually exactly where you want it.
FYI, I had a Supercharger 10 miles from my old house, essentially never used it. Never needed to, as I charged at home.

And I don't believe that there are "hundreds", maybe 100 for the entire country. Ontario, Quebec, and NB are around 50.


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## Ed Woodrick

Klaus-rf said:


> And then hope and pray you find an available, working CCS station??
> 
> Destination and shopping center chargers aren't intended to give everyone that shows up a full tank. Odds are that the 30+ miles provided by a short time at a L2 charger is more than the distance you drove to the mall.





francoisp said:


> If Tesla would finally release the CCS adapter I could do it in 1 hour while getting lunch or shopping. 😡


Check the price of charging at the CCS sites and see if they still look as nice. In many locations, they can be a LOT MORE, sometimes rivaling gas.


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## francoisp

Ed Woodrick said:


> Check the price of charging at the CCS sites and see if they still look as nice. In many locations, they can be a LOT MORE, sometimes rivaling gas.


I don't care too much about the price when I'm traveling: what I care about is nearby access.


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## francoisp

Ed Woodrick said:


> And I just looked at Superchargers vs CCS on Plugshare. There seems to be roughly the same number located in similar locations.
> No charge is usually exactly where you want it.
> FYI, I had a Supercharger 10 miles from my old house, essentially never used it. Never needed to, as I charged at home.
> 
> And I don't believe that there are "hundreds", maybe 100 for the entire country. Ontario, Quebec, and NB are around 50.


Here are a zoomed out map of 50 and 100 kw SAE Combo chargers in the Montréal-Québec corridor as shown on the Electric Circuit app. Unfortunately as Tesla owners we don't have access to those.


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## Ed Woodrick

francoisp said:


> Here are a zoomed out map of 50 and 100 kw SAE Combo chargers in the Montréal-Québec corridor as shown on the Electric Circuit app. Unfortunately as Tesla owners we don't have access to those.


It looks like that map shows individual pedestals, not locations. I was referring to locations. If you look at the Tesla pedestals, that's probably similar.

Look at it the other way, "There are hundreds of pedestals that I can't charge at" if I was driving a CCS Combo vehicle.

But the ones who are hurting are the Leafs, one of the most sold cars, who can't use the CCS Combo plugs. Electrify America and a few other companies have left the CHAdeMO folks out of the equation. That's interesting, seeing that Teslas or Leaf tend to outnumber everyone else combined.


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## webe3owners

Is it different there? Here, everywhere there is a CCS station there is a Chademo. The exception is Electrify Canada (small player here). There are new Chademos going in everyday here. Four more just got installed by Tesla 2 blocks from my house. (FLO stations but installed by Tesla). Get a Chademo adapter and you are set.


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## lance.bailey

BCHydro up here in BC (from where @webe3owners hail) has been stellar in getting fast chargers installed across the province (including northward) before PetroCan, Telsa or anyone else. And they are free. I suspect at somepoint they will need a BCHydro card or association to your utility bill, but for now CHADemo and CCS are available.

CCS is not limited in the max charging - I can't remember if BC limits CCS to match CHADemo, but I do not think that PetroCan does. I continue to hope for CCS as it has a higher charge in the spec than CHADemo.


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## francoisp

Nissan is going CCS and Chademo is now considered a legacy standard.

Edit: in America.


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## francoisp

Ed Woodrick said:


> Look at it the other way, "There are hundreds of pedestals that I can't charge at" if I was driving a CCS Combo vehicle.


Not sure I am following you here. SAE Combo chargers are CCS chargers. Most car manufacturers beside Tesla USA have adopted the CCS standard.


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## msjulie

> And it's time for Tesla to give us a CCS adapter.


Add another vote here though I kinda thinking hoping for this from Tesla may be a futile pursuit


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## francoisp

msjulie said:


> Add another vote here though I kinda thinking hoping for this from Tesla may be a futile pursuit


As we know Tesla is planning to open up its network to other manufacturers and will be offering a CCS adapter for its chargers. So there is hope that it would concurrently offer one for the CCS chargers.


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## msjulie

francoisp said:


> As we know Tesla is planning to open up its network to other manufacturers and will be offering a CCS adapter for its chargers. So there is hope that it would concurrently offer one for the CCS chargers.


I'd like to agree with you but I don't see the need from Tesla's viewpoint. Too bad 'reasons' gave us CCS as the standard, a big clunky plug end as compared to the nice sleek Tesla plug but that's a different rant


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## Ed Woodrick

francoisp said:


> Not sure I am following you here. SAE Combo chargers are CCS chargers. Most car manufacturers beside Tesla USA have adopted the CCS standard.


I'm talking about the Tesla chargers, they are the chargers that CCS can't use.

The grass is always greener on the other side.

Pay $500 USD (estimate) for the non-existent CCS adapter and you may be able to charge at a few more location, some may be more convenient, but most will be more expensive (and then add the pre-rata cost of the plug).


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## lance.bailey

For me, the $500 (estimate) for the CCS adapter amoritizes directly against convenience. There are a lot more CCS sites than supercharger sites in BC and the CCS are free. $500 buys me a lot of convenience 

Granted there are an equal number of CHADemo sites (most are both CHADemo and CCS) but CCS is faster at some sites which throttle CHADemo.


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## webe3owners

lance.bailey said:


> For me, the $500 (estimate) for the CCS adapter amoritizes directly against convenience. There are a lot more CCS sites than supercharger sites in BC and the CCS are free. $500 buys me a lot of convenience
> 
> Granted there are an equal number of CHADemo sites (most are both CHADemo and CCS) but CCS is faster at some sites which throttle CHADemo.


None of the CCS or Chademo sites are free around here. What provider has them as free???


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## lance.bailey

last time I checked, the BCHydro CHADemo and CCS were free. Perhaps that changed - I know that the shopping malls have started to charge - but not having either a CHADemo and CCS adapter, I have not checked for a while.


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## lance.bailey

lance.bailey said:


> last time I checked, the BCHydro CHADemo and CCS were free. Perhaps that changed - I know that the shopping malls have started to charge - but not having either a CHADemo and CCS adapter, I have not checked for a while.


correction - i had some time this morning to check and apparently the BCHydro are now priced based on charging level for their stations. mea culpa.


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