# News from VAG (VW-Audi-Seat-Skoda-Porsche, etc.)



## Michael Russo (Oct 15, 2016)

I know it's Volkswagen, and some still like this brand... (not pointing the finger here... ) yet am I the only who thinks that 10 new models in the next 10 years - with a total of 3 million cars/year...!) is a tad ambitious from where they're starting.., even for VW..? 
https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/a-gigafactory-of-ones-own-vw-may-build-itself-a-battery-factory/


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## Gilberto Pe-Curto (Oct 20, 2016)

Besides Dieselgate I am a VW fan.
Had a Golf and now A3, both company cars and I really like the build qualiry and overall.
If they had a EV similar to Tesla, I would switch right now to an EV.
Upssssss ... I forgot I don't have where to charge it...
;-)


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## Michael Russo (Oct 15, 2016)

Gilberto Pe-Curto said:


> Besides Dieselgate I am a VW fan.
> Had a Golf and now A3, both company cars and I really like the build qualiry and overall.
> If they had a EV similar to Tesla, I would switch right now to an EV.
> Upssssss ... I forgot I don't have where to charge it...
> ;-)


Boa noite amigo... As I said, everybody is entitled to their opinion...  I had quality problems with an A6 several years ago... and this Dieselgate really did it to me...! Nail in the coffin... Besides why did it take so long to sense the trend here...?! Why weren't they the one planning a Gigafactory years ago? Where was their 'vision' up to now?
It is clear that, had they suddenly had a yuuuge need to work on a (badly) tarnished image ... and would Elon not make rockets & beautiful T≡SLA Model ≡ spaceships on wheels, VW would still plan generations of TDI's !! 
Again, I just think they are getting a bit ahead of themselves with these recent announcements... wishful thinking to some extent...


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## Gilberto Pe-Curto (Oct 20, 2016)

Michael Russo said:


> ... Besides why did it take so long to sense the trend here...?! Why weren't they the one planning a Gigafactory years ago? Where was their 'vision' up to now?
> ...


As I wrote before somewhere else:
They were making money and squeezing all they could from TDI technology.
Instead of having a vision for the future.

It seems that companies somewhere in time loose vision and values from what product they want to build and just get worried about making money and keeping up to shareholders growth expectations.


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## Kizzy (Jul 25, 2016)

I was in love with the Love Bug, but it's time Herbie went electric.


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## Badback (Apr 7, 2016)

Long time VW owner here. I am trying to get a buy back on my 2013 Beetle TDI. VW is dragging their feet. So, their mea coulpa is not all that sincere. I did like the car, great handling and really great acceleration and 50MPG on a trip. But the prospect of a ≡ has me turned off to any ICE car.


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## Michael Russo (Oct 15, 2016)

More of the same.... 
Notice all the references to T≡SLA which is always telling as to *who* is setting the scene, at least for the foreseeable future.
Also note the writer acknowledges there maybe some hype in Diess' statements (fitting with the title of this thread...) though nobody would argue with the likelihood of VAG achieving notable success in a decade ... Yet 1st in the world by 2025?... the jury is out... 

http://www.forbes.com/sites/bertels...tegy-finally-something-that-makes-some-sense/


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## Dan Detweiler (Apr 8, 2016)

It's just all vaporware at this point,

Dan


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## MichelT3 (Nov 16, 2016)

I really DON'T like VAG-products. All to bland and unimaginative. Well made cars, but without any inspiration, continuing on the old-well trodden ways. Which is exactly why they pushed themselves into Dieselgate.
If they really do a turn-around, they could survive. But I doubt whether 25 % EV's in 2025 will be enough.
By then even 'Joe-sixpack' will see that ICE's cars are fossils themselves, without any second hand value in 2030. And the second hand value has always been very important to the VW-buyer (I know a few). So, my guess is that even 'Joe' won't buy an ICE-car in 2025 any more. Which could even happen sooner... around 2020. But that soon there are not enough BEV's on the marked yet.

I used to be a Citroën fan. But I now believe that partly Chinese owned PSA (of which Citroën and Peugeot are the main parts, selling all over the world, but not in the US) has lost it almost completely. I would surprise me if it won't go bankrupt (or move to China) in the next decade.
Tesla is what Citroën used to be in the 1950s and '60s; daring technology and design, exciting and accelerating the whole car marked.


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## Michael Russo (Oct 15, 2016)

@MichelT3 , each brand has & generally retains its core group of die hard fans... fortunately people have different opinions and this is ok. 
I personally am with you with regards to VAG in general, if you don't include the exotics they also own... (cf. my earlier post)....
To survive, you need innovation & economy of scale... Not all current carmakers will make it... that is clear...
The EV revolution is underway... let's see where it takes us!!!


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## TrevP (Oct 20, 2015)

My wife loved her '99 VW Gold diesel. So much so that she put 420,000 kms on it by the time we sold it!
She immediately went and bought a 2009 City Golf. It now sits in our garage with 36,000 kms on it. Basically unused for the most part but she still loves it. When she talks about getting a new car when the time comes it will be an EV. She even asked if the e-Golf was coming to Canada but her minimum range has to be 300Kms to be viable given the trips she does (she does not want to have to sit for an hour to top up).

I have a feeling I'm going to be fighting her to drive *my* Model 3


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## Michael Russo (Oct 15, 2016)

TrevP said:


> My wife loved her '99 VW Gold diesel. So much so that she put 420,000 kms on it by the time we sold it!
> She immediately went and bought a 2009 City Golf. It now sits in our garage with 36,000 kms on it. Basically unused for the most part but she still loves it. When she talks about getting a new car when the time comes it will be an EV. She even asked if the e-Golf was coming to Canada but her minimum range has to be 300Kms to be viable given the trips she does (she does not want to have to sit for an hour to top up).
> 
> I have a feeling I'm going to be fighting her to drive *my* Model 3


I just looove the Freudian slip on your wife's 99 'Gold'...!!! Fitting in this thread!! LOL


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## Gilberto Pe-Curto (Oct 20, 2016)

MichelT3 said:


> I really DON'T like VAG-products. All to bland and unimaginative. Well made cars, but without any inspiration, continuing on the old-well trodden ways. Which is exactly why they pushed themselves into Dieselgate.
> If they really do a turn-around, they could survive. But I doubt whether 25 % EV's in 2025 will be enough.
> By then even 'Joe-sixpack' will see that ICE's cars are fossils themselves, without any second hand value in 2030. And the second hand value has always been very important to the VW-buyer (I know a few). So, my guess is that even 'Joe' won't buy an ICE-car in 2025 any more. Which could even happen sooner... around 2020. But that soon there are not enough BEV's on the marked yet.
> 
> ...


@MichelT3 
This makes sense and is somewhat how I felt when VAG salesman, dropped 5000€ on the price of a new A3.
I think they are already dumping stock and pushing this cars to general public.


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## Michael Russo (Oct 15, 2016)

Porsche expects to sell 20k Mission E...
Not bad for a car that is likely to go for over €150k...

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/807933070934425604


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## Red Sage (Dec 4, 2016)

TrevP said:


> My wife loved her '99 VW Gold diesel. So much so that she put 420,000 kms on it by the time we sold it!
> She immediately went and bought a 2009 City Golf. It now sits in our garage with 36,000 kms on it. Basically unused for the most part but she still loves it. When she talks about getting a new car when the time comes it will be an EV. She even asked if the e-Golf was coming to Canada but her minimum range has to be 300Kms to be viable given the trips she does (she does not want to have to sit for an hour to top up).
> 
> I have a feeling I'm going to be fighting her to drive *my* Model 3


Hmmm... Did you show her the Volkswagen ID...?
*http://fortune.com/2016/09/28/volkswagen-paris-ev/*


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## TrevP (Oct 20, 2015)

I haven't yet. She didn't like the i3 she test drove but the ID might be a contender. She's not ready to replace her Golf yet given she hardly drives it but this one might be the one that get's her to switch once it goes into production.

She's already asked to try the e-Golf once it arrives here next year but I don' think the range will be enough to keep her from complaining


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## Michael Russo (Oct 15, 2016)

Step by step... slowly coming to their senses... put your money where your mouth is... and all will be good... 

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/810205607328419840


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## Red Sage (Dec 4, 2016)

Michael Russo said:


> Step by step... slowly coming to their senses... put your money where your mouth is... and all will be good...
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/810205607328419840


Nice, but... Isn't this though just a verbal acknowledgement of what had already been reported earlier? Except that before, the Volkswagen battery factory in Germany was said to be to supply their hybridized vehicles going forward. I think that announcement may have been made just ahead of the sanctions by the U.S. and E.U. over _'DieselGate'_. One thing about InsideEVs is that for some reason they don't do direct quotes of people that they haven't interviewed themselves. Instead, they paraphrase the reports that others have made. It would certainly help to know the question that was asked, and the context, before finding out this... 'answer', especially if video exists of the answer someone gave. I've mentioned this to one of their contributors before, but it seems they are really afraid of either plagiarism or misreporting, so they insist that they must be present in order to report on what they have actually witnessed themselves, rather than taking someone else's word on it. Perhaps they are afraid that in search of headlines other websites might use clever editing to make it seem as if someone like Elon Musk has said something entirely different than what might have been meant.


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## MichelT3 (Nov 16, 2016)

TrevP said:


> I haven't yet. She didn't like the i3 she test drove but the ID might be a contender. She's not ready to replace her Golf yet given she hardly drives it but this one might be the one that get's her to switch once it goes into production.
> 
> She's already asked to try the e-Golf once it arrives here next year but I don' think the range will be enough to keep her from complaining


I feel sorry for you @TrevP . I'm in a bit of the same position. My wife loves her FIAT 500 TwinAir, but she has had een less good experience with driving a Smart Two4two E-Drive, which has put her off EV's in her mind. She liked being a passenger in a testdrive with a Model S though. She still doesn't understand my enthusiasm for the Model 3, but 'allows' it.


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## Mark C (Aug 26, 2016)

MichelT3 said:


> I feel sorry for you @TrevP She liked being a passenger in a testdrive with a Model S though. She still doesn't understand my enthusiasm for the Model 3, but 'allows' it.


My wifes first comment after we left the Tesla store from my test drive, her test ride {her choice, not mine} was how quickly she was smashed back in her seat when I floored it from a standstill! The car in question was a single motor S75, not a P100D.

She understands my enthusiasm completely now.


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## Michael Russo (Oct 15, 2016)

Mark C said:


> My wifes first comment after we left the Tesla store from my test drive, her test ride {her choice, not mine} was how quickly she was smashed back in her seat when I floored it from a standstill! The car in question was a single motor S75, not a P100D.
> 
> She understands my enthusiasm completely now.


Works every time... unless they prefer horses...


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## MichelT3 (Nov 16, 2016)

Mark C said:


> She understands my enthusiasm completely now.


Oh, no doubt we will be doing new testdrives when Model 3 is becoming more real! 
I hope to be able to see and testdrive a Model 3 before I should order mine. To see the different options IRL. And that I will be able to 'seduce' my wife that way.
It will become my car anyway, which she won't drive much. But she has to agree on the money spend.


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## Michael Russo (Oct 15, 2016)

For those of you T≡SLA fans & Model ≡ reservation holders who have VW aficionados within the close circle of their loved ones 
Beware... the teaser may leave them with a bit of frustration as if it so short!!  Or is that the ID...?! 

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/811934534962974721


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## Michael Russo (Oct 15, 2016)

When our favorite Thai-Norwegian (Bjørn Nyland) 'YouTuber' tests something else than a T≡SLA... 
2015 e-Golf: Bjørn finds it smooth... well equipped yet still feels it to be a 'fossil' car (love how he always says that! ) 'mutated' into an electric car... 

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/812046446673494024


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## MichelT3 (Nov 16, 2016)

Michael Russo said:


> For those of you T≡SLA fans & Model ≡ reservation holders who have VW aficionados within the close circle of their loved ones
> Beware... the teaser may leave them with a bit of frustration as if it so short!!  Or is that the ID...?!
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/811934534962974721


Blèh! Just outward bling-bling! Totally useless. 
(Or am I too negative about this make?)


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## Michael Russo (Oct 15, 2016)

MichelT3 said:


> Blèh! Just outward bling-bling! Totally useless.
> (Or am I too negative about this make?)


@MichelT3 ... hold on... remember, it's not for us... just for our die-hard VW loved ones 
Seriously... if and when they make it, some folks will be interested... heck, look at how many people bought the Golf... which I never could understand... so... if VW is truly serious.... as I just wrote elsewhere: 祝你好运! (cf. 'Paving the way for Gigafactory 3' thread )


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## MichelT3 (Nov 16, 2016)

Sure, but they should make a good car. With real commitment. Not make a lot of noise about nothing.


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## Michael Russo (Oct 15, 2016)

Volkswagen wants us to have a better I.D. of what is ahead...  
Note the wide range estimate which could either suggest various battery sizes or an honest reference to the difference between the EPA and European norms...
http://uk.businessinsider.com/volks...-248-miles-and-372-miles-on-a-single-charge-1


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## MichelT3 (Nov 16, 2016)

I'm so fed up with all those 'Tesla killers', which are just renderings or prototypes, aiming to hit the market in 2020, or later with worse specifications than Tesla has for a year from now. And autonomous drive in 2025...
Which in the current speed of transition is almost in another century.

I'm equally fed up with the EU NEDC mileage norm, which in the real world is off 30-40 %. 
With an ICE-car that just leads to more money spend on gas. With EV's it has a direct effect on the usability of the car, therefore disappointing naïve buyers. NEDC is almost amounting to fraud imho.


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## Michael Russo (Oct 15, 2016)

More bad news for Volkswagen in the US...
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...th-justice-department-over-emissions-scandal/

No wonder their NA CEO Hinrich J. Woebcken just declared 'We want to convert America to EVs'... Good! Now we know who's going to do it...! 

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/819092433682231296Sorry, folks, article is in French... so here are key takeaways, in addition to the _breaking news_ as title of the article :
- 'we're coming out of the crisis'... diesel was 25% of NA sales yet ('outside of the impact of the Dieselgate', whatever that means...), 2016 sales _only_ went down 7.6%... 
- Woebcken 'very optimistic' for 2017, as well as for prospects for new large SUV Atlas, produced in Chattanooga, TN, where they invested $1B - ok, that's cool...
- VW employees 45k people in the US ('including brokers', again, kind of a weird statement, no?) and 120k if you include suppliers workforce...
Is it just me, or doesn't this entire interview (obviously designed as an obvious PR move under the challenging circumstances...) appear as somewhat disingenuous...?


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## Mark C (Aug 26, 2016)

Seems to me they would prefer to stay in business, so they are trying all they know how. I'm sure that the diesel cheat has cost them dearly on both sides of the Atlantic, as it well should. They ought not get away with a slap on the wrist. 

That said, there are a lot of good people working for the VW Group that would like to remain employed. I too would like them to remain employed. I am also hopeful that this will be an object lesson for all manufacturers on staying within legal boundaries and the severe cost of being caught outside those boundaries.


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## Badback (Apr 7, 2016)

As someone on the pointy end of the diesel scandal, I own a VW TDI, I can tell you that they did everything possible to delay my buyback. 
Incredible paperwork, incredible wait times "while we verify your documents" 4 times longer that allowed by the court settlement, incredible lack of communications including making it impossible to contact them with a pathetically understaffed chat system.
Now that I finally have my buyback offer, there is another 1-1/2 month delay to get an appointment at the dealer because they are only scheduling 3 cars a day. Outrageous! And all this time I am forced to make payments and pile up interest and insurance fees.


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## MichelT3 (Nov 16, 2016)

Badback said:


> As someone on the pointy end of the diesel scandal, I own a VW TDI, I can tell you that they did everything possible to delay my buyback.
> Incredible paperwork, incredible wait times "while we verify your documents" 4 times longer that allowed by the court settlement, incredible lack of communications including making it impossible to contact them with a pathetically understaffed chat system.
> Now that I finally have my buyback offer, there is another 1-1/2 month delay to get an appointment at the dealer because they are only scheduling 3 cars a day. Outrageous! And all this time I am forced to make payments and pile up interest and insurance fees.


Very exemplary for a high-nosed car company as VW is. In The Netherlands they've temporarily lowered prices and so managed to keep their market share. Completely ignoring scandals they are now even putting out boasting TV adverts again.
I really doubt VW or the car sector as a whole has learned much from 'Dieselgate'. Other than to straighten out their PR machine. Blah!


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## Michael Russo (Oct 15, 2016)

Check out this Mission E (Porsche) out in the cold... 
http://www.motorauthority.com/news/1108285_2020-porsche-mission-e-electric-car-spy-shots


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## Badback (Apr 7, 2016)

A Porsche with a trailer hitch, OMG. This is not your father's Porsche.


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## Michael Russo (Oct 15, 2016)

Am intrigued to see Audi (particularly its NA President) increasingly making bolder statements on EV growth... this one is the most recent one.... 40 exclusive EV carmakers in 10 years...? There is already a dozen or more in China only today... 
Ok, on a more serious note, question would be what share of that total EV market T≡SLA will hold by then. I'd venture to say 30 to 40%, outside of China (which will continue to have lower average requirements for a while)...

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/831518400685961219


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## Red Sage (Dec 4, 2016)

Badback said:


> A Porsche with a trailer hitch, OMG. This is not your father's Porsche.


Hmmm... Maybe your Father's third Wife's Porsche?


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## Red Sage (Dec 4, 2016)

Michael Russo said:


> Am intrigued to see Audi (particularly its NA President) increasingly making bolder statements on EV growth... this one is the most recent one.... 40 exclusive EV carmakers in 10 years...? There is already a dozen or more in China only today...
> Ok, on a more serious note, question would be what share of that total EV market T≡SLA will hold by then. I'd venture to say 30 to 40%, outside of China (which will continue to have lower average requirements for a while)...
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/831518400685961219


At the moment, Tesla no longer holds 100% of the long range _(200+ mile range, sub-$200,000)_ EV market, thanks to the Chevrolet BOLT. It would be nice to see some others partake. I'm fairly certain that the Porsche Mission·E will be one of the $300,000+ entrants.


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## Michael Russo (Oct 15, 2016)

Red Sage said:


> (...) I'm fairly certain that the Porsche Mission·E will be one of the $300,000+ entrants.


@Red Sage , did you really mean >€300k for the Mission E?! Then it should be 'Mission EE', as in 'Extremely Expensive'!


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## Gilberto Pe-Curto (Oct 20, 2016)

"Mission impossible" is the real name


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## Red Sage (Dec 4, 2016)

*Unmögliche Mission*

I just remembered... As Tesla's Mission comes to fruition, they will lead the rest of the industry along. Because they still retain 100% of the sub-$200,000 300+ range fully electric vehicle market. And when someone else joins them there, they will move to 400+ range, and then 500+ range. It's... a strategy.

And again, it isn't so much about what people actually need to use on a daily basis. It is about changing the entire paradigm of transportation and mobility. Move the conversation away from how long it takes to charge. Instead shift it to, "Geez, when was the last time I had to charge anyway?" And that's the sort of thing that will happen as the base capacity of Tesla's vehicles grows from being _'adequate'_ to being _'enough'_ and eventually reaches _'Range? What's that?'_ levels. An effective state of _'Range Amnesia'_. That would be best covered with testimonials such as, _"I plug it in sometimes, but it doesn't really need it. I have no idea how long it takes to charge. I never have to wait for it. I do other things, get on with my life."_


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## Gilberto Pe-Curto (Oct 20, 2016)

Gilberto Pe-Curto said:


> "Mission impossible" is the real name
> View attachment 1002


Tom Cruise is driving Porsche here, by the way.


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## AEDennis (Apr 10, 2016)

Red Sage said:


> ...
> And again, it isn't so much about what people actually need to use on a daily basis. It is about changing the entire paradigm of transportation and mobility. Move the conversation away from how long it takes to charge. Instead shift it to, "Geez, when was the last time I had to charge anyway?" And that's the sort of thing that will happen as the base capacity of Tesla's vehicles grows from being _'adequate'_ to being _'enough'_ and eventually reaches _'Range? What's that?'_ levels. An effective state of _'Range Amnesia'_. That would be best covered with testimonials such as, _"I plug it in sometimes, but it doesn't really need it. I have no idea how long it takes to charge. I never have to wait for it. I do other things, get on with my life."_


For daily life, already there...

Only on roadtrips does this really matter nowadays.


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## Michael Russo (Oct 15, 2016)

Red Sage said:


> *Unmögliche Mission*
> 
> I just remembered... As Tesla's Mission comes to fruition, they will lead the rest of the industry along. (...)
> And again, it isn't so much about what people actually need to use on a daily basis. It is about changing the entire paradigm of transportation and mobility. (...)


*Danke schön*, Roter Philosoph!!!


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## Michael Russo (Oct 15, 2016)

Smart in North America, Audi in China... Seems like German carmakers pay more attention to overseas markets than to their own backyard? 

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/831850937392177152


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## Red Sage (Dec 4, 2016)

Michael Russo said:


> *Danke schön*, Roter Philosoph!!!


I might get this quote wrong, but here goes...

_"The impossible happens every day. People get used to that. No. It is the improbable that people can't seem to wrap their minds about." _-- DOCTOR WHO​


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## MichelT3 (Nov 16, 2016)

Yes they do. French carmakers too.
Because they have concluded that the European car market is saturated (they forget: with ICE cars!!!) and will only diminish over time. Due to the rising age and declining numbers of the European population. They all see China as the holy grail of an expanding car market.
Forgetting that the world can't handle such an increase of exhaust pipes.
I'm in regular contact with the director of the Dutch subsidiary of one of those carmakers. It's really incredible how dead-end ICE-oriented that company is thinking.
I expect them and a few others to go bankrupt in the next decade.

The orientation to China and US for their beginnning experiments with BEV is because the governments there are 'forcing them' and because they think it less of a problem for their image if they will fail. I'm my eyes it's just a confirmation that they still don't want to make that transferral to BEV and hope to keep selling ICE as long as they can.


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## Michael Russo (Oct 15, 2016)

Nothing extraordinarily new in this article, which does bring some preliminary design insights... Mostly it's the last paragraph that sticks with me... we won't have a final ID () on how they look on the road before over 3 years... 

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/832621006162370560


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## Michael Russo (Oct 15, 2016)

When I read Diess' quote, I can't help to think how phenomenal the impact of T≡SLA now has become after only about 5 years of the Model S launch, on an industry and key players that are 60 to over 100 years old!! Volkswagen for instance is about to celebrate its _*80*_ years!!
Fabulous _disruption_!! 

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/839900634962931714


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## Red Sage (Dec 4, 2016)

Michael Russo said:


> When I read Diess' quote, I can't help to think how phenomenal the impact of T≡SLA now has become after only about 5 years of the Model S launch, on an industry and key players that are 60 to over 100 years old!! Volkswagen for instance is about to celebrate its _*80*_ years!!
> Fabulous _disruption_!!
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/839900634962931714


I just wush General Motors would_ 'rethink' _the future of their Cadillac and Buick Divisions.


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## Guest (Mar 9, 2017)

I would add my few cents about *Dieselgate*.

First of all. The thing VW did is bad. Let me be clear, that I don't approve it as it is not fair to others.
But as young engineering guy who wants to understand the whole picture I found out something 
that has never been mentioned in the news, mostly due to emotions and how news work nowadays.
Anyway...
Technically, what VW did does make sense. Not legally but overall result is positive.
And that's the irony - people actually think that result is bad. Let me explain without going into the details
(at least not right away). 
The thing that is bad is direct tailpipe emission. Not catastrophically, just on paper it looks bad.
The "40x over legal limit" in true, but the limit is something artificial that has nothing to do with pollution.
The way how many small diesel passenger vehicles get their NOx emission "near the latest legal limit" is with
clever thing in the exhaust pipe that traps the NOx molecules for a short period in the device. Those NOx
molecules must be broken down before exiting. And this is the interesting part. Fresh diesel is used to do it.
I thought that this is practically unmeasurable amount but I was wrong. There is a lot of fuel injected directly
into the exhaust pipe to break down NOx molecules. Result is that the tailpipe emissions are cleaner, but actually
much more fuel is being used per distance traveled. And that result in a really bad overall result.
Worse fuel economy (in the name of reducing NOx and nothing else) will result in more fuel needed. More fuel
consumed. That fuel must be bought. That fuel must be brought to the station. And stored there. And before it
gets to the station it actually must be refined. And fuel refineries is not a green business (not going to talk much).
And more fuel means more oil must be pumped or cracked from the ground. All this requires energy and, especially
in oil industry, with extreme power needs, that energy is not made with fairy dust and sunshine.

I've not calculated the difference in overall pollution (including only NOx pollution) on the big picture (well to wheel)
but I'm absolutely sure making few percents extra fuel is not going be better than 40x more NOx emissions.

VW vehicles that are cheating consume less fuel and produce considerably less CO2 due to that. Due to less fuel
being consumed that fuel has not been made nor transported. This reduces CO2 (and all other emissions, incl NOx
that the truck that transports the fuel to the station did not produce). 
I'm absolutely certain that overall picture is far better (if not actually being better) than the media forced us to believe.

Unfortunately, tailpipe requirements are strictly direct tailpipe emissions. And due to that this foolish situations happened
where it is better to burn considerably more fuel in the name to get one specific molecule in the artificial limit set by somebody. 
I'm not even counting extremely indirect pollution effects like: getting to the fuel station more often, having extra weight due
to more complex exhaust system etc. 
Volkswagen (some engineers) chose to "ignore" NOx artificial limit" in the name to get less overall pollution.
I salute them for doing the right (while illegal and unfair) thing . I hoped that "requirement making committee" learned from 
the mistake, but it appears that absolutely nothing has been learned from that.

In addition to all this vehicles are scrapped. Which is literally idiotic. Making one vehicle requires massive amount of energy.
Destroying extremely efficient vehicle it in the name of reducing direct NOx emissions is beyond... I have no words for that.

Interesting fact to take the edge off and make another one:
The more efficient diesel engine gets, the more NOx emissions it will produce.


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## Michael Russo (Oct 15, 2016)

OMG, @arnis , I am afraid to think about what you could have done with this post if you would have gone into details... 
Anyways, if I get it right, in the end, you _salute_ VW?  For paying tons of money in compensation, having to deal with a major PR disaster, for lying on the actual range of their future EVs by overquoting the unrealistic NEDC values? Am confused...


----------



## Michael Russo (Oct 15, 2016)

Red Sage said:


> I just wush General Motors would_ 'rethink' _the future of their Cadillac and Buick Divisions.


Particularly the former... A radically redesigned (without the grille... ) 100 kWh XTS BEV could be intriguing...


----------



## Guest (Mar 10, 2017)

I salute to the engineers who chose to cheat in the name of making actually better car (better performance, better efficiency, most likely better overall emissions). 

NEDC value is, as fake and stupid as it is, is still a requirement. It's a shame that they don't tell the realistic range next to it.


----------



## Michael Russo (Oct 15, 2016)

arnis said:


> I salute to the engineers who chose to cheat in the name of making actually better car (better performance, better efficiency, most likely better overall emissions).
> 
> NEDC value is, as fake and stupid as it is, is still a requirement. It's a shame that they don't tell the realistic range next to it.


Well, @arnis , all in all, looks like, at the very least, an _opportunity for improvement in the way they communicate_...
In addition, if they really could prove objectively that their cars really have better overall emissions, why did they have to pay so much money? Not sure reality is this rosy...


----------



## Guest (Mar 10, 2017)

Michael Russo said:


> if they really could prove objectively that their cars really have better overall emissions


Even if legislators would actually understand the whole thing, it wouldn't help much. VW clearly had an advantage over every other manufacturer (most other manufacturers, as some others have also cheated, outside VAG group). That is another court case with competitors suing and that would damage reputation/stock even further as most mortals would still believe that direct emissions is all that matters. Plus another scandal due to illegal advantages over other manufacturers.


----------



## Gilberto Pe-Curto (Oct 20, 2016)

I 


arnis said:


> I would add my few cents about *Dieselgate*.
> 
> First of all. The thing VW did is bad. Let me be clear, that I don't approve it as it is not fair to others.
> But as young engineering guy who wants to understand the whole picture I found out something
> ...


I understand this post and the overall vision.
After my VW Dieselgate fixed, the car is now regenersting DPF more often, thus consuming more fuel and more CO2 I guess.
So if they measured average CO2 and NOX in nornal driving , now to with city driving some cars, might be producing more emissions than before.
And don't you think that other diesel manufacturers are not doing the same thing. They can't have better and efficient diesel engines without doing similar things in emissions.
Politics had a good part in the Dieselgate.


----------



## Gilberto Pe-Curto (Oct 20, 2016)

Ohh I forgot to mention,
What they did is wrong, for sure.


----------



## Guest (Mar 10, 2017)

After the fix the LNT is regenerating correctly, DPF is regenerated correctly before and after the fix. But they are pretty close to each other (in one cylinder I believe). That's just technical stuff. 
It is possible to get the appropriate NOx emissions with SCR - another technology that requires Diesel Exhaust Fluid being installed to the vehicle. It takes more space, adds weight, but makes NOx emissions reliably good. Semi trucks use that for ages. BMW with diesel engines also uses that in US. On trucks/SUVs there is more space and weight is not that important compared to small VW diesel vehicle. BTW some VW vehicles do have SCR system.

Other manufacturers 1) do waste fuel on LNT regeneration (as do fixed VW vehicles that don't have SCR) 2) tune the vehicle to be less powerful than it really should be - VW also "fixed" that too, reduced max power/torque.








BMW with AdBlue. Lasts for about 10 000 miles. Tankful will cost around 5-7€.


----------



## Badback (Apr 7, 2016)

Red Sage said:


> I just wush General Motors would_ 'rethink' _the future of their Cadillac and Buick Divisions.


You meant to say " I jist wush General Motors woild 'rethunk' the fitirue of thuer Cadullac and Biuck Duvusuons."


----------



## Badback (Apr 7, 2016)

arnis said:


> I would add my few cents about *Dieselgate*.
> 
> First of all. The thing VW did is bad. Let me be clear, that I don't approve it as it is not fair to others.
> But as young engineering guy who wants to understand the whole picture I found out something
> ...


As a recent owner of a Beetle TDI, I agree with everything that you have said. I would like to add that the resulting emissions from the TDI is greatly dwarfed by every heavy truck on the road, they have no emissions requirements.

Furthermore, the TDI is a great car to drive. The enormous torque makes for very sporty acceleration, without the fuel economy penalty.
On road tips, we regularly averaged 50 MPG.

My understanding is that these cars will be modified to comply with the emissions requirements and resold as used cars. Evidence the fact that I could have opted to do this to mine.

I opted for the 'buy back' option of the settlement agreement and turned in the car a couple of weeks ago.

I give VW failing marks for the settlement process.

For me, it took 5 months, start to almost finish.

I say almost because, as they did pay me in a few days, they have yet to pay the lien holder.
This and the 5 month delay, has cost me additional payments and interest. Of course, I get the principal back, but not the interest.

It is obvious for anyone who has gone through the buy-back process that the delays and speed bums are intentional and put there to delay as long as possible VW's negative cash flow, at the customers expense.
They under staffed the process and made it impossible to contact them to ask about the interminable delays. At one point in the process, where the court had given them 10 days to respond, they took 40 days.

For these reasons, I am finished with VW, after having owned several of their cars over many years.

On the positive side, the court has provided a generous settlement. We bought the Beetle in the fall of 2012, a new 2013 model, for ~$25k.
We got back ~$23k.

The proceeds have gone into the Model 3 kitty. I now have my Model 3 paid for. Yeah


----------



## Red Sage (Dec 4, 2016)

As I understand it, the only way to _'fix'_ Volkswagen's TDI vehicles is to cancel out the_ 'advantages'_ they provided through cheating. So the sporty responsiveness and fuel economy would have gone away in order to make them _'clean running'_. Those _'miracles'_ of automotive engineering were just a smokescreen.


----------



## Guest (Mar 11, 2017)

The other way to "fix" (aka to meet fictitious safe NOx levels) any diesel is to use SCR instead of LNT.
But that adds to the cost of the vehicle. SCR is usually installed on expensive vehicles, like VW Passat, BMW 5-7 series, SUVs etc.
SCR is clean and have all the advantages, except cost somewhat more (I expect around 500€ per vehicle).
And as fuel is very cheap in US, people tend to buy gasoline vehicle. People tend to avoid paying extra for cleaner emissions.
Retrofitting SCR is extremely expensive due to extensive work needed to disassemble/assemble all the stuff so that
way of fixing vehicles that have been already built is out of the question.

The most reasonable way to fix VW TDI's would be to ship those cars to other countries where imaginary NOx limits are not that extreme.
Magically Dieselgate vehicle stops being a polluter and actually is cleaner than almost any other ICE vehicle in the world
(there are some exceptions like Prius that gets similar mpg plus has less NOx).

Fun fact: in regions where air quality is not good (lots of traffic), air that comes out of a modern diesel vehicle exhaust pipe is actually cleaner. Harmful molecules (unburned fuel, partly oxidized compounds, soot etc) are finally oxidized completely.


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## Badback (Apr 7, 2016)

Red Sage said:


> As I understand it, the only way to _'fix'_ Volkswagen's TDI vehicles is to cancel out the_ 'advantages'_ they provided through cheating. So the sporty responsiveness and fuel economy would have gone away in order to make them _'clean running'_. Those _'miracles'_ of automotive engineering were just a smokescreen.


Yes, after the fix the performance would be only so-so and the fuel economy would drop. So far, no one who has had theirs modified has reported the results. This is why I chose the buy-back option. I could, of course, have chosen to keep the car as is. My paltry 5000 miles per year of driving would have been insignificant.


----------



## Michael Russo (Oct 15, 2016)

I fail to see the PR value to VW of such releases... 

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/841680467850076161


----------



## Gilberto Pe-Curto (Oct 20, 2016)

Another car presentation filmed in Lisbon, my town.
We're getting pretty famous here lately...


----------



## Gilberto Pe-Curto (Oct 20, 2016)

But the car is horrible!!!!


----------



## MelindaV (Apr 2, 2016)

but nice that it comes with imaginary features. :tearsofjoy:


----------



## Badback (Apr 7, 2016)

MelindaV said:


> but nice that it comes with imaginary features. :tearsofjoy:


No, no, no @MelindaV , those are "alternative" features.


----------



## Red Sage (Dec 4, 2016)

Poor, poor Volkswagen. They wanted so much to be known as the biggest in the world. Thought they could do it with diesel. Nope.


----------



## Michael Russo (Oct 15, 2016)

Audi of Norway opens reservations ($2,900) for the new 2018 e-Tron SUV with 95 kWh battery... OK, yet no guarantee of final design, let alone selling price... My guess: > €75k...

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/855885262374797317


----------



## @gravityrydr (Apr 12, 2016)

Kizzy said:


> I was in love with the Love Bug, but it's time Herbie went electric.


You have some hope.
https://electrek.co/2017/01/19/vw-all-electric-beetle/


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## Michael Russo (Oct 15, 2016)

Another CzEVch concept for the 2020 collection... Odd color choice... but at least no faux grille 

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/856538263011692545


----------



## Guest (Apr 25, 2017)

Michael Russo said:


> Another CzEVch concept for the 2020 collection... Odd color choice... but at least no faux grille
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/856538263011692545


PHEV in 2019 and 5 EV's in 2025? That's a long way from today 500km? That will be as simple as 120km Nissan Leaf in 2013, though, actually, no need to go way above that. Level 3 autonomy, in 2025? What? That is like adaptive cruise control in 2015.
Not awesome perspective. Though. If they offer it for 20k€, that would be interesting.


----------



## Michael Russo (Oct 15, 2016)

As we know, Porsche now also plans low e-Mission...  yet still concept up to now & not expected before 2019...


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/860826573087412225


----------



## Michael Russo (Oct 15, 2016)

I have no doubt that VW will ultimately manage to become one of the key EV players. Yet they've got a lot of catching up to do and, in the meantime, lots of what Diess keeps boasting feels like 'parole, parole, parole*'... 

https://www.ft.com/content/a43ac2ce-3198-11e7-9555-23ef563ecf9a

* i.e. 'words, words, words' in Italian (cf. classic hit in the late 60's on this side of the water...)


----------



## Red Sage (Dec 4, 2016)

Michael Russo said:


> I have no doubt that VW will ultimately manage to become one of the key EV players. Yet they've got a lot of catching up to do and, in the meantime, lots of what Diess keeps boasting feels like 'parole, parole, parole*'...
> 
> https://www.ft.com/content/a43ac2ce-3198-11e7-9555-23ef563ecf9a
> 
> * i.e. 'words, words, words' in Italian (cf. classic hit in the late 60's on this side of the water...)


Any relation to_ 'Lies'_ by the Thompson Twins?


----------



## Michael Russo (Oct 15, 2016)

More of the same... ambition, ambition... 


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/861656998538031104


----------



## Red Sage (Dec 4, 2016)

Volkswagen AG did announce a few years ago that they wanted to become the biggest car company in the world by 2018. They are pretty close to that mark, but have seen a setback due to effectively having to abandon their diesel program. 2025 could be enough time for them to replace it with an EV program, but my guess is that they intend to mostly go with Plug-In Hybrids for the most part. That is a similar strategy as Ford and probably GM as well. Toyota just wants to do hybrids, I think, for as long as they can without dedicating themselves to plug-ins.


----------



## Gilberto Pe-Curto (Oct 20, 2016)

Change is Very Hard.
Is hard even when one knows that would be to a better compromise on the long run...

Even harder to the ones that want immediate financial return (ROI)
And we know a guy that doesn't think like that...dont we ?! 
And he's taking credit for that


----------



## Michael Russo (Oct 15, 2016)

Red Sage said:


> Volkswagen AG did announce a few years ago that they wanted to become the biggest car company in the world by 2018. They are pretty close to that mark, but have seen a setback due to effectively having to abandon their diesel program. 2025 could be enough time for them to replace it with an EV program, but my guess is that they intend to mostly go with Plug-In Hybrids for the most part. That is a similar strategy as Ford and probably GM as well. Toyota just wants to do hybrids, I think, for as long as they can without dedicating themselves to plug-ins.


I do believe VW will do more than hybrids... Toyota too at some point... Ford, I dunno... GM... well, they've got the most appealing Bolt, no?


----------



## Red Sage (Dec 4, 2016)

Gilberto Pe-Curto said:


> Change is Very Hard.
> Is hard even when one knows that would be to a better compromise on the long run...
> 
> Even harder to the ones that want immediate financial return (ROI)
> ...


The [FOULED] up thing is...? The automobile manufacturing industry is not exactly a short term quarterly sort of business. It typically takes around five years to bring a product to market from conception. So, you must learn to read market signs when it comes to design, compare them with regulatory requirements for years to come, and allow for surprises along the way. Yet, with all the data that was available from the 2008 launch of Tesla Roadster, and 2012 release of Model S, and despite repeated announcements of the pending release of various e-tron variants...? Volkswagen AG is only now in 2017, under duress due to DieselGate, expecting that eventually, sometime in the next decade or so, deciding to make a significant portion of their product line _'electrified'_. Wow. Such... _vision_.


----------



## Badback (Apr 7, 2016)

All large corporations are hamstrung by stock analysts, except one that I need not mention.


----------



## TrevP (Oct 20, 2015)

Just thought you guys would like to see a green eGolf we had at the EV event today. Didn't get a chance to drive it since I had to leave a bit early


----------



## Michael Russo (Oct 15, 2016)

@Topher : right color, wrong car?


----------



## Topher (May 11, 2016)

Michael Russo said:


> @Topher : right color, wrong car?


Thanks for looking out for me, but that's not really the green I am hoping for.

Thank you kindly.


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## Michael Russo (Oct 15, 2016)

Topher said:


> Thanks for looking out for me, but that's not really the green I am hoping for.
> 
> Thank you kindly.


Didn't think it was... yet could not help but to think of your up to now unsatisfied wish... :rainbow:


----------



## Gilberto Pe-Curto (Oct 20, 2016)

Red Sage said:


> The [FOULED] up thing is...? The automobile manufacturing industry is not exactly a short term quarterly sort of business. It typically takes around five years to bring a product to market from conception. So, you must learn to read market signs when it comes to design, compare them with regulatory requirements for years to come, and allow for surprises along the way. Yet, with all the data that was available from the 2008 launch of Tesla Roadster, and 2012 release of Model S, and despite repeated announcements of the pending release of various e-tron variants...? Volkswagen AG is only now in 2017, under duress due to DieselGate, expecting that eventually, sometime in the next decade or so, deciding to make a significant portion of their product line _'electrified'_. Wow. Such... _vision_.


Don't even tell me about Dieselgate.
I've been in a dispute with them because of the #vwfixfail they put on my car....


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## Badback (Apr 7, 2016)

Gilberto Pe-Curto said:


> Don't even tell me about Dieselgate.
> I've been in a dispute with them because of the #vwfixfail they put on my car....


This is why I went with the buy-back option. I figured that the fixed car would be a dog. The buy-back pays for half of my M3.


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## JWardell (May 9, 2016)

TrevP said:


> Just thought you guys would like to see a green eGolf we had at the EV event today. Didn't get a chance to drive it since I had to leave a bit early
> 
> View attachment 1657


I took a look at the eGolf a few weeks ago. A little on the pricey side for what you get, but probably the most reasonable 3 alternative. My biggest issue was lack of fun colors, till I saw your tweet!


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/869321602416201729
40 colors! Not fair! I am SO upset that car manufacturers think America is color blind. We only get ONE paint with color in it, of course plenty of boring shades of grey.










This is why I really wish the 3 was available with some new fun colors that will get noticed! VW Canada gets it.


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## Michael Russo (Oct 15, 2016)

@JWardell , don't forget the range on the e-Golf is nowhere near 215+ miles on EPA cycle...


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## Gilberto Pe-Curto (Oct 20, 2016)

Badback said:


> This is why I went with the buy-back option. I figured that the fixed car would be a dog. The buy-back pays for half of my M3.


I'm in Europe.
"No Buyback for you!"


----------



## Badback (Apr 7, 2016)

Gilberto Pe-Curto said:


> I'm in Europe.
> "No Buyback for you!"


Cheeseburger cheeseburger cheeseburger.


----------



## Michael Russo (Oct 15, 2016)

Wait, if Audi truly got there, or knows how to get there (which I doubt...), how much lower is T≡SLA with 2170 cells made in Gigafactory 1?


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/878599212732207105


----------



## Michael Russo (Oct 15, 2016)

You can dream to 'stop' T≡SLA, VAG, as long as you don't stop to dream... AND _do more than dream_... as, in the words of Herr Diess himself:
"_We have to watch out, because we have a lot of work in front of us, and the challenges that lie ahead are enormous_,"

http://www.smh.com.au/business/inno...e-race-for-electric-cars-20170707-gx6x3f.html


----------



## Michael Russo (Oct 15, 2016)

Volkswagen juicing up America... 50 kW CCS first, with later increases to 150 kW, even 350?


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/885484557352538114


----------



## Michael Russo (Oct 15, 2016)

This quote by their CEO is priceless:

'Between 2020 and 2025, we have to start electrification'... 


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/886571800657879040


----------



## Badback (Apr 7, 2016)

Michael Russo said:


> This quote by their CEO is priceless:
> 
> 'Between 2020 and 2025, we have to start electrification'...
> 
> ...


Between now and 2025, I have to start my diet.


----------



## MichelT3 (Nov 16, 2016)

Michael Russo said:


> This quote by their CEO is priceless:
> 
> 'Between 2020 and 2025, we have to start electrification'...
> 
> ...


How pathetic they are. Between 3 and 8 years they "have to start"... "have to" ...!
Yes, they HAVE TO, or will collapse.

Today the news that they also say their (smaller, compact) I.D. car will be $ 7000 cheaper than Model 3.
So what? It should be. Especially without fast charging and EAP/FDS.
How pathetic.

The name isn't even original. 1956-1975 Citroën sold the ID model; a simpler version of the famous DS.


----------



## Michael Russo (Oct 15, 2016)

For those who don't refer to the white bird on a light blue background ... 


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/887998523001769984


----------



## Michael Russo (Oct 15, 2016)

Certainly a logical move to penetrate the yuuuge local market and spread e-Golf in China's polluted megalopolises!!


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/901535521511485440


----------



## Michael Russo (Oct 15, 2016)

I like vanilla... give me my vanilla... 


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/902200206476926976


----------



## $ Trillion Musk (Nov 5, 2016)

They wish they were vanilla!


----------



## garsh (Apr 4, 2016)

It's the finest of the flavors!


----------



## Michael Russo (Oct 15, 2016)

For you, @Kennethbokor ! 


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/903664633093005317


----------



## Michael Russo (Oct 15, 2016)

Big words, big numbers, big ambition from VW... Now let's see them turn these to reality and we'll all be happy!

https://electrek.co/2017/09/11/vw-massive-billion-investment-in-electric-cars-and-batteries/amp/


----------



## JWardell (May 9, 2016)

Dieselgate may have been a blessing in disguise! I can see VW have an need and opportunity to buck the industry and make a big gamble on EVs. If they pull it off and have much better offerings than the other manufacturers they can really come out ahead. I love to see these companies scrambling as they see the writing on the wall. All going to Elon's plan!


----------



## Michael Russo (Oct 15, 2016)

Porsche is upping up its ante with the Mission E... yet I can't help remain to be skeptical about some of the statements here...

VAG has shown us in recent years that many of their claims need to be considered very carefully. For one thing, the timing still remains iffy INHO. Also, I will be VERY surprised if this car _only_ costs 80-90 grand when commercialised. For sure, in Europe, I don't imagine anything under €120k which would put it up to 10-20% over a decent T≡SLA S.

Now does it _look_ good? That's another story. Ferrari design (to me) also remains to die for... 


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/910174200962310144


----------



## $ Trillion Musk (Nov 5, 2016)

Michael Russo said:


> Porsche is upping up its ante with the Mission E... yet I can't help remain to be skeptical about some of the statements here...
> 
> VAG has shown us in recent years that many of their claims need to be considered very carefully. For one thing, the timing still remains iffy INHO. Also, I will be VERY surprised if this car _only_ costs 80-90 grand when commercialised. For sure, in Europe, I don't imagine anything under €120k which would put it up to 10-20% over a decent T≡SLA S.
> 
> ...


My prediction... once the 2nd gen roadster & Model S are revealed no one would even bother with the Mission E except for Porsche's diehard fans. By 2019 Tesla would have already become a household name, mainly due to Model 3, and will manage to keep the upper hand while other wannabes play catch up.


----------



## Michael Russo (Oct 15, 2016)

Safe Daddy Driver said:


> My prediction... once the 2nd gen roadster & Model S are revealed no one would even bother with the Mission E except for Porsche's diehard fans. By 2019 Tesla would have already become a household name, mainly due to Model 3, and will manage to keep the upper hand while other wannabes play catch up.


There will be a significant number of diehard fans plus current high end Beemers & Daimler owners who wants to 'trade up' and be 'green'... particularly in Germany. I would not underestimate those...


----------



## Michael Russo (Oct 15, 2016)

Watch Herr Mueller going on another kind of ludicrous tangent... 

https://arstechnica.com/cars/2017/1...la-for-not-making-money-firing-workers/?amp=1

Seriously, VW, you really think this is the way to restore your image? Below the belt attacks? 
I have an ID... and suggest something more constructive


----------



## MichelT3 (Nov 16, 2016)

It just shows the traditional car companies who have woken up (like VAG) are scared ****less. 
Because they DO understand the transition really is underway, that they were caught pants down, that their company is too much car oriented, and that it will take them a decade to get up to the same speed again. 
All that because of a company with a different concept and a marginal market share (till now).
How pathetic!

But let's not forget that there are also a number of big car companies who haven't woken up yet... Those will either close down, or be taken over by the Chinese. So we're probably going to see a lot of rants like these in the coming year.
After which they will die out, because by then everyone sees that it will be 'do or die'.


----------



## garsh (Apr 4, 2016)

I just wanted to say that I really like those wheels.


----------



## SoFlaModel3 (Apr 15, 2017)

garsh said:


> I just wanted to say that I really like those wheels.


Very cool car all around!


----------



## garsh (Apr 4, 2016)

(yeah, but click here).


----------



## SoFlaModel3 (Apr 15, 2017)

garsh said:


> (yeah, but click here).


^^^ click bait 

But I see what you did there.


----------



## 11thIndian (Jan 15, 2017)

There's been a couple of new articles recently about the Quattro, Audi's first all-electric, which will be hitting Europe next fall and US/Canada in Spring 2019. The Audi Owners Magazine has had update articles on it the last two issues.

For me personally, if there is a potential competitor to the Tesla Model Y, this is it. Unless something dramatic happens over the next 6 months, this will very likely be the first mid-price EV SUV to hit the market. At a starting price of over 100K here in Canada, the Model X is very nice but WELL outside of my price range.

https://blog.caranddriver.com/audi-...-new-tech-details-on-the-tesla-model-x-rival/


----------



## Michael Russo (Oct 15, 2016)

It's been awhile we've had anything 'meaty' enough to report on VAG EV plans so here it is...


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/935519421375885313
Note that this is around the LA Auto Show and yet they can't help but referring to the deceptive NEDC ranges... typical VAG...


----------



## 3V Pilot (Sep 15, 2017)

Michael Russo said:


> It's been awhile we've had anything 'meaty' enough to report on VAG EV plans so here it is...
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/935519421375885313
> Note that this is around the LA Auto Show and yet they can't help but referring to the deceptive NEDC ranges... typical VAG...


Michael, I've got to say that I love your passionate disdain for VAG and I can understand why you feel that way. A the same time though I have to say that behind Tesla they are probably my favorite auto manufacturer. I unfortunately share an equal amount of disdain or more for the Big 3 American manufacturers for their "Planned Obsolescence" design philosophy. The Japanese manufacturers make some great products but it'll be years before they are a real Player in the EV market. I love the new Mission E, Minibus, and E Golf. The fact that VAG is investing in charging infrastructure and battery factories tells they are at least heading in the right direction.


----------



## MichelT3 (Nov 16, 2016)

Michael Russo said:


> It's been awhile we've had anything 'meaty' enough to report on VAG EV plans so here it is...
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/935519421375885313
> Note that this is around the LA Auto Show and yet they can't help but referring to the deceptive NEDC ranges... typical VAG...


Which makes it easy for us. We'll just see those NEDC miles as EPA kilometers... we won't be disappointed.
I kind of like the BUZZ though... with better (Tesla) batteries and Tesla Supercharging.


----------



## MichelT3 (Nov 16, 2016)

Mike Land said:


> Michael, I've got to say that I love your passionate disdain for VAG and I can understand why you feel that way. A the same time though I have to say that behind Tesla they are probably my favorite auto manufacturer. I unfortunately share an equal amount of disdain or more for the Big 3 American manufacturers for their "Planned Obsolescence" design philosophy. The Japanese manufacturers make some great products but it'll be years before they are a real Player in the EV market. I love the new Mission E, Minibus, and E Golf. The fact that VAG is investing in charging infrastructure and battery factories tells they are at least heading in the right direction.


I agree, though for us Europeans VW is the brand of dullness. VW's are bought by people who don't want to be special in any way and who are looking for 'security'. That said, I'm glad that VAG has woken up, where other big car manufacturers are still hibernating.


----------



## Michael Russo (Oct 15, 2016)

Porsche Mission E range: electric... and electrified...? Should we even expect a Mission B (B for 'Benzin', i.e. gas in German...)? 


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/947150272559828993


----------



## Michael Russo (Oct 15, 2016)

Are they gonna remind us every week for the next 100? . Seems like this 'building up the ante' is a bit premature, no?


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/947210528031731716


----------



## Mark C (Aug 26, 2016)

Michael Russo said:


> Are they gonna remind us every week for the next 100? . Seems like this 'building up the ante' is a bit premature, no?
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/947210528031731716


This seems about right, compared to a Model 3 reservationist from 4/5/16 to whenever {First Production estimated Apr - Jun 2018}. 100 weeks +/- reminds me of.....me!


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## Michael Russo (Oct 15, 2016)

VAG wants to dethrone T≡SLA with 1-1.5 million EV sold... by 2025??? 

http://europe.autonews.com/article/20180110/ANE/180109784?template=mobile02


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## Guest (Jan 11, 2018)

If they actually want, they will and can beat Tesla. But only if they count PHEV's, not just EV's.


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## Michael Russo (Oct 15, 2016)

arnis said:


> If they actually want, they will and can beat Tesla. But only if they count PHEV's, not just EV's.


And thus, that would _not_ count, my friend...  Apples to Apples...


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## $ Trillion Musk (Nov 5, 2016)

To quote Elon: Do it. 



Michael Russo said:


> VAG wants to dethrone T≡SLA with 1-1.5 million EV sold... by 2025???
> 
> http://europe.autonews.com/article/20180110/ANE/180109784?template=mobile02


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## 3V Pilot (Sep 15, 2017)

Michael Russo said:


> VAG wants to dethrone T≡SLA with 1-1.5 million EV sold... by 2025???
> 
> http://europe.autonews.com/article/20180110/ANE/180109784?template=mobile02


If VAG thinks that sheer numbers alone is the benchmark by which they are going to measure, well, then yes, they have the ability to dethorone Tesla. However until any current major auto manufacture completely revamps the way they have done things for the last 100 years then Tesla will be around for a long while. It's because Tesla does what needs to be done and not what always HAS been done that gives it the edge. Tesla may not sell as many cars as VAG in the upcoming EV wars but I've yet to see ANY maker sell a single EV as well thought out as Tesla. Even the concepts are crap, which makes me wonder what Tesla has planned for 5 years from now when other companies might "cough, cough" have an EV actually on the market......


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## John (Apr 16, 2016)

<rant>
The underlying casual assumption at work here-that the rocket science part is making quality cars at volume-may come into question at some point if it turns out that the expectation for modern electric cars require new skills that the incumbents may not appreciate as being critical right now. To wit: the battery management software which allows very low degradation and great performance, the car management software which provides a friendly experience and upgrades, the cost and detailed characteristics of the batteries themselves, and responsibility for long-distance charging. Plus, once you've ordered a car online you might not be super-anxious to visit a traditional dealership again.

The automakers will default to a "third parties will handle that" approach for things like charging. "Oh, Ionity and Chargepoint will take care of your road trip charging needs." Only Tesla will be in a position to support their own cars via their own charging network, and can make sure they aren't the weak part of the ownership experience. Third party charging firms are going to gouge drivers just as bad as repair shops do today. Expect "surge pricing" at crowded recharge stations in key areas until stations become super common.

Will the navigation systems in VWs be able to calculate a charging route based on the current state of the car? Will they be that well integrated, or will they just tell you where the stations are located? Will they be able to tell you how many stalls are unoccupied? Most likely they will just strap on CarPlay and Android audio, as well as nav from an existing nav vendor. Hopefully with internet updates, and not a DVD that dealers can sell upgrades to, but I wouldn't bet on that. Software is the weakest part of current mainstream autos, and unless "most of the engineers at VW are software engineers"-as is true at Tesla-I wouldn't hold my breath for that.
</rant>


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## Guest (Jan 12, 2018)

Mike Land said:


> but I've yet to see ANY maker sell a single EV as well thought out as Tesla.


What do you mean when you say "thought out"? More power and more range is not a measure of that. It's a measure of performance. Bigger in size? Also can't be that. Neither is AWD. Neither is charging speed (aka charging performance)

I would appoint missing grab handles 2, missing rear hand rest 3, insufficient rear headspace 8, missing cupholders 1, missing sunshades (roof) 6, no tow hook option 2, inconveniently latchable frunk 4, no 360 camera view 3, missing heat pump 6, bad repairability 4, excessive production tolerances (incl defects) 7, are all indicators that reduce value of "thought out". Though existence of weatherproof frunk 3, SC network capability 8, reduction of buttons 4, OTA update capability 9, excellent safety 4 and stuff like that increase that value. In that I'm sure: Model S definitely is not the most thought out EV on the market. It's just one of the best in terms of performance.

*Number resembles importance to average (not US only) customer the negative or positive feature, 10 being maximum importance.


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## Guest (Jan 12, 2018)

Michael Russo said:


> And thus, that would not count, my friend...  Apples to Apples...


I understand the "complaint". EV≠PHEV. And they should not be counted as EV's.

Even though maybe not applicable to VAG (now), who knows...
REx EV (BMW i3 for example) is actually EV, just not zero emission EV (OEM option). Similarly Tesla with fuel cabin heater (non OEM option) is not zero emission EV. And having an imaginary generator-trailer doesn't make Tesla a hybrid.
Even though Volt is often in EV mode, it *can *nominally operate as HEV (it just has a socket). It can be HEV forever. No need to charge. It will operate as usual. Just buy fuel and enjoy hybrid vehicle (with bad mileage). Some actually live like that.
BMW i3 with optional generator is not intended to operate in *H*ybrid mode without being recharged after depletion. Even though it is possible, it will void the warranty and ruin the generator before reasonable expected lifetime of the vehicle itself. Therefore it is not sustainably *H*ybrid vehicle (with a socket). If it is not a _subtype _of hybrid vehicle, it must be a _subtype _of electric vehicle. And yes, it can operate as EV forever. So not _P_*H*EV but _REx _EV. (PS: Volt does require ICE for heat in cold, i3 does not)

Similarly, we might have PHV in addition to HV. And maybe even more complex and more dumb versions like HHV.
HV as in Hydrogen Vehicle (there is no need to mention fuel cell like "FCEV", as there are no other types of hydrogen vehicles available any more (and the other type was actually H*ICE*V), nor is there any point to mention Electric, as there are no non-electric hydrogen vehicles. Shortest shall be the most appropriate (BEV vs EV: no reason to say Battery as there is no other types of EV-s on market, like SuperCapacitorEV SCEV).
HHV as in Hybrid Hydrogen Vehicle. Due to bad Hydrogen station coverage, a gasoline operated ICE is available (though avoided due to cost of fuel).
PHV as in Plugin Hydrogen Vehicle - one that can have onboard battery recharged (as there must be a battery anyway, why not 15kWh instead of 1.5kWh, makes sense) with a plug for daily commutes and hydrogen kept for longer trips. So a Volt style Frankenstein car 7 years from now, when gas is so expensive or rare that it is unreasonable to use it even occasionally for longer trips and there is no other way to refill reasonably on the way (DC-charging network for other manufacturers useless) but to use absurd Hydrogen stations. Uuh... a long one

There will be many apples to choose from. Likely the most simple one, EV, will prevail.


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## 3V Pilot (Sep 15, 2017)

arnis said:


> What do you mean when you say "thought out"? More power and more range is not a measure of that. It's a measure of performance. Bigger in size? Also can't be that. Neither is AWD. Neither is charging speed (aka charging performance)
> 
> I would appoint missing grab handles 2, missing rear hand rest 3, insufficient rear headspace 8, missing cupholders 1, missing sunshades (roof) 6, no tow hook option 2, inconveniently latchable frunk 4, no 360 camera view 3, missing heat pump 6, bad repairability 4, excessive production tolerances (incl defects) 7, are all indicators that reduce value of "thought out". Though existence of weatherproof frunk 3, SC network capability 8, reduction of buttons 4, OTA update capability 9, excellent safety 4 and stuff like that increase that value. In that I'm sure: Model S definitely is not the most thought out EV on the market. It's just one of the best in terms of performance.
> 
> *Number resembles importance to average (not US only) customer the negative or positive feature, 10 being maximum importance.


By "Well thought out" I mean, show me ANY other auto company with nationwide charging or over the air software updates or even one that has something as simple as a frunk. I see these other EV's and under the hood it always looks like some ******* attempted to replace a gas engine with a homemade concoction that might make the car go down the road. Every other company out there is playing catch up right now and it will be years before they produce anything close to what Tesla is already doing. They all talk about what a wonderful EV future they have planned and I haven't seen one produce a car I'd consider buying at half the price they charge. BMW i3, what joke. Chevy Volt/Bolt, are you kidding me? Nissan leave, Egolf, Emini, E whatever are all glorified golf karts at best. It's not about performance or size, it's about bold new designs that nobody else but Tesla has the guts to attempt.


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## $ Trillion Musk (Nov 5, 2016)

In short, I’d rather see automakers such as BMW build a “real car” electric 3 Series rather than a “fraction of a car” i3...


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## MichelT3 (Nov 16, 2016)

arnis said:


> What do you mean when you say "thought out"? More power and more range is not a measure of that. It's a measure of performance. Bigger in size? Also can't be that. Neither is AWD. Neither is charging speed (aka charging performance)
> 
> I would appoint missing grab handles 2, missing rear hand rest 3, insufficient rear headspace 8, missing cupholders 1, missing sunshades (roof) 6, no tow hook option 2, inconveniently latchable frunk 4, no 360 camera view 3, missing heat pump 6, bad repairability 4, excessive production tolerances (incl defects) 7, are all indicators that reduce value of "thought out". Though existence of weatherproof frunk 3, SC network capability 8, reduction of buttons 4, OTA update capability 9, excellent safety 4 and stuff like that increase that value. In that I'm sure: Model S definitely is not the most thought out EV on the market. It's just one of the best in terms of performance.
> 
> *Number resembles importance to average (not US only) customer the negative or positive feature, 10 being maximum importance.


All aspects which already have been improved in Model 3 or will be before 2020. Minor matters (dearly though I want a towing hitch) compared to the concept of Tesla.


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## Guest (Jan 12, 2018)

MichelT3 said:


> Al aspects which already have been improved


Tesla was the first, but now, others are catching up. Tesla is NOT moving fast enough.
Even though others require you to hold steering wheel more often, others can, literally, do same stuff.



Mike Land said:


> show me ANY other auto company with nationwide charging or over the air software updates or even one that has something as simple as a frunk. I see these other EV's and under the hood it always looks like some ******* attempted to replace a gas engine with a homemade concoction that might make the car go down the road. Every other company out there is playing catch up right now and it will be years before they produce anything close to what Tesla is already doing.


Well, car company does and will likely not have proprietary charging network. Tesla is not a car company any more. So we should remove that requirement that network must be by manufacturer of vehicles. 
"Nationwide" is a word which changes around the world. My nation is covered (100%) with DC charging stations. 50kW, not 110kW. Though that is performance figure.
Frunk - it is less useful/functional than respectively bigger trunk. So example: sedan A has frunk 1volumeunit and trunk 5volumeunits. Hatchback has frunk 0 volumeunits trunk 6 volume units. In this comparison, hatchback is better.
Tesla S is a huge vehicle. Years ago, it had a huge frunk. Now it doesn't. Cargo capacity dropped from "extremely good" down to "good" in terms of exterior dimensions. Exterior dimensions are very important when cargo space is evaluated.
What is seen under the hood plays absolutely no role for customer. Reason why EV's do not have frunk is because they are not elongaget for that frunk. Model S could be shorter, something MANY want from it, and lose just the frunk. This is how many EV-s are designed. It's not a drawback. Shorter vehicle is often a requirement. BMW i3 has a frunk. It can't have bigger one because it is a short vehicle.


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## MichelT3 (Nov 16, 2016)

arnis said:


> others are catching up.


No, they are NOT. They are stil years and years behind. Because as you also say:


arnis said:


> will likely not have proprietary charging network


The Tesla SuperCharging network means a fundamental difference, which makes it more than just a car company. 
The difference between SuperCharging and slow charging is not just a performance figure, it's the difference between comfort and uselessness.


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## Guest (Jan 12, 2018)

I'm not talking about one aspect. I'm talking about all aspects of "though out" vehicle.

If you have 2 seats with no trunk space, no matter how fast and available is charging, it's a bad vehicle for regular users.
Roadster2 is close to this. Charging is ONE aspect. Not all of them.

*SC network*
AFAIK, Tesla has not said "others are not welcome to join our network". 
Also, SC global network is not massive. It does cover huge part of US and Europe, but it doesn't support even few million vehicles.
So in terms on millions (investment) it is not an extremely massive network decades ahead.
Apples to Apples comparison would be one Chademo charger vs two supercharger stalls. The number is not that far off.

So if VAG actually wants, they could cover EU faster than Tesla. They have more resources for doing that.
But they are not wise enough. That doesn't mean they won't do that rapidly progressing step few years later.
And the whole point of Tesla is to make them (and everybody else) do it faster.

What is happening here (those WINNER votes and aggressive denial of shortcomings) is "group of people in emotional pool of one common topic" - _dam, hard to explain, can't even do it properly in my own language. _And it is dangerous. Because it either bring the group very far in correct direction (for example a group of devoted scientists all working on one common knowledge/problem) or incorrect direction (ten teenagers in one class making a group that do their own stuff their own way - even if one of them hunches incorrectness, "group will appease that individual" (aka "hey guys I'm not sure jumping down from this bridge into the water is a good idea", "Tom, what are saying, look we all can do it, so therefore it's fine"; "Oh I guess you're right") But are NOT.
So when MichelT3 or Arnis say something "same", and just because they have "good score" therefore we shall trust them. If one says A and other says B, I shall choose whatever suits me. Guess what? One of them is wrong. And you just played random without thinking. And guess what. Even when we say the same, we can be both wrong. Therefore you are too. And the whole group.

Think. Don't let others think for you. Don't let the herd instinct dominate. I know, it appears to be the correct and easy way, but it is not reliable.

Take ONE thing and cut it into simple pieces to digest.
Take SC network parameters. Throughput of one SC station with 8 stalls per 12 hour period (daytime). How many cars do you estimate that SC can handle. How many SC are there with 8 or less stalls. How many long distance cars should there be in 2022? Take Tesla and ALL others combined. Can SC network cover 1% of them? Where is 99% leftover? Just think for 5 minutes (it's for you, reader, not for MichelT3 only).


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## Michael Russo (Oct 15, 2016)

@arnis , the whole point some of us are making is T≡SLA is what ahead in terms of a practical, reasonably effective charging infrastructure network and will continue to expand it.
That lead is expected to last several years (not forever...) and until it lasts, it is one of the most crucial competitive advantages they have over anybody else's EV offering, however intriguing.

Now, when there are as many 350 kW, for instance CCS, chargers as there are SCs, someone who commecializes a fancy price/performance attractive EV that can charge in 15-20' there will have an edge...

Wait, what if it's T≡SLA with their SC 3.0 technology...?!


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## Guest (Jan 12, 2018)

If we want to be at real, we shall not talk about charger maximum power rating. We shall speak about maximum charging speed specific vehicle can keep up. It's not about SC 1, 2 or 3.0. Any model S/X/3 made up to this date will never charge any faster than 120kW SC-s support today.

Tesla's SC network is the best. But not good enough for many as it is not ready. We know who was the first one on the moon, but not the second one. As of right now, nobody has claimed charging network dominant spot. Not in Asia, not in Europe, not in US.



Michael Russo said:


> and until it lasts, it is one of the most crucial competitive advantages they have over anybody else's EV offering, however intriguing.


Agree. Though I still would bet someone big will join Tesla within 5-7 years. Maybe in EU (due to appropriate plug design). Maybe Volvo.


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## MichelT3 (Nov 16, 2016)

arnis said:


> If we want to be at real, we shall not talk about charger maximum power rating. We shall speak about maximum charging speed specific vehicle can keep up.


Whether we talk about the first or the second, or whether we talk about the distribution of these fastest (SC) charging locations, Tesla is in all 3 aspects 'lightyears' ahead of the competition. So much that there is hardly any competition at all. At least for the next 5 years is my estimate.
Further I agree completely with @Michael Russo. Tesla needs and eventually will get competition.

Oh, one more note: The SC network is a huge advantage, but because of the long range of Teslas it's only needed when doing longer trips. So for 90 % of trips it won't be necessary. 
This goes for me too, one of the reasons why I want a LRB Model 3 is being able to do most of my trips without charging 'en route'. But for those exceptional longer (vacation / weekend) trips, the SC network is crucial. Because I want to be able to use my BEV also for those longer trips, any other BEV without SC possibility is useless for me.


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## MichelT3 (Nov 16, 2016)

arnis said:


> Agree. Though I still would bet someone big will join Tesla within 5-7 years. Maybe in EU (due to appropriate plug design). Maybe Volvo.


So we agree after all. Sharing of opinions can lead to advancement.


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## Michael Russo (Oct 15, 2016)

Per Elektrek, boldest announcement yet by VAG... Production of the ID range said to start next year, seemingly anticipated to start in 2020, now reported to significant ramp-up year. Seems nice on paper so will they deliver?

https://electrek.co/2018/01/31/vw-electric-car-production-zwickau-factory/?pushup=1


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## 3V Pilot (Sep 15, 2017)

Michael Russo said:


> Per Elektrek, boldest announcement yet by VAG... Production of the ID range said to start next year, seemingly anticipated to start in 2020, now reported to significant ramp-up year. Seems nice on paper so will they deliver?
> 
> https://electrek.co/2018/01/31/vw-electric-car-production-zwickau-factory/?pushup=1


I think if anyone can do it VAG will be the closest one to doing it right. They have a long hill to climb and I think it will take some time before they can be competitive with Tesla in price and overall design. However if they build battery factories like the follow on article states below, well, then they will be the only ones with a real chance to give Tesla a run for their money.

https://electrek.co/2018/01/29/mercedes-benz-electric-vehicle-production-global-battery-network/

Edit.....Funny thing though, the "Battery Factories" they are making such a big deal about don't make the batteries, just the packs. The battery supplier they have says they will ramp up production to 4 gWh hours a year while Tesla's first Gigafactory is planned for 35 gWh a year. Guess we can see who is REALLY serious......


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## Michael Russo (Oct 15, 2016)

Mike Land said:


> I think if anyone can do it VAG will be the closest one to doing it right. They have a long hill to climb and I think it will take some time before they can be competitive with Tesla in price and overall design. However if they build battery factories like the follow on article states below, well, then they will be the only ones with a real chance to give Tesla a run for their money.
> 
> https://electrek.co/2018/01/29/mercedes-benz-electric-vehicle-production-global-battery-network/
> 
> (...)


Mike, be careful though, doesn't the article talk about Mercedes' battery factory plans, not Volkswagen AG (aka VAG)?! That's the thing, IMHO, I believe in Daimler Benz more than in VAG...


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## 3V Pilot (Sep 15, 2017)

Michael Russo said:


> Mike, be careful though, doesn't talk about Mercedes' battery factory plans, not Volkswagen AG (aka VAG)?! That's the thing, IMHO, I believe in Daimler Benz more than in VAG...


I'm sorry, you are correct. My brain after graveyard shift!!!....LOL


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## Michael Russo (Oct 15, 2016)

Mike Land said:


> I'm sorry, you are correct. My brain after graveyard shift!!!....LOL


No harm done, it's easier for me as European to distinguish the European ICE-makers, VW, Mercedes, BMW, Ferrari, Haagen-Dasz... etc...


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## MichelT3 (Nov 16, 2016)

Car makers do everything they can to try not to lose market share to Tesla. From investments, to downright lies, to denial.
But I suppose that VAG is really trying now. Plus a few other companies. Though battery production and charging infrastructure stay weak points of their propositions.


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## 3V Pilot (Sep 15, 2017)

Michael Russo said:


> No harm done, it's easier for me as European to distinguish the European ICE-makers, VW, Mercedes, BMW, Ferrari, Haagen-Dasz... etc...


I actually do know the difference but when I read the related article I just wasn't paying much attention to the "who", just the "what". I guess the point is that for all the talk among every major auto firm out there, until someone can produce their own batteries, in their own factories like Tesla, then it's really all lip service to appease public opinion. Non of them really have serious plans to fully embrace electric and will continue to push ICE cars. Maybe it shouldn't surprise me but it does, they have dominated the industry for 100 years and can't change the way they think. They are digging their own grave by doing what they have always done and what they know, sell ICE cars. It will take any of them at least a decade from the time they break ground on an actual battery factory to catch Tesla, and by then it will be too late!


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## Michael Russo (Oct 15, 2016)

'Pardon me, boy, is that the Chattanooga Choo Choo?...' 


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/960484294690070529


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## Michael Russo (Oct 15, 2016)

Nice move... yet... When there will be a €55k Porsche that can supercharge all around Europe in about 40-45' at 100+ kW, they will really start to be interesting... 

https://www.teslarati.com/porsche-invest-7-billion-rival-tesla/


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## 3V Pilot (Sep 15, 2017)

Michael Russo said:


> Nice move... yet... When there will be a €55k Porsche that can supercharge all around Europe in about 40-45' at 100+ kW, they will really start to be interesting...
> 
> https://www.teslarati.com/porsche-invest-7-billion-rival-tesla/


It's great to see all these "Plans" and I really do like the Mission E. I think Porsche will sell a ton of them, once they actually start making them AND they have the infrastructure in place. Right now though it all seems a bit "concept show car vaporware" to me, and that goes for all the major brands and their talk of planned EV's. I know they have to follow through and I know they will, it's just a matter of how long they can/will drag their feet. If it weren't for Tesla and half a million of us that said yes, well, I think none of this would be happening.


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## MichelT3 (Nov 16, 2016)

Michael Russo said:


> Nice move... yet... When there will be a €55k Porsche that can supercharge all around Europe in about 40-45' at 100+ kW, they will really start to be interesting...
> 
> https://www.teslarati.com/porsche-invest-7-billion-rival-tesla/


Well, to be honest @Michael Russo, the article states: 
"Perhaps the most interesting aspect of Porsche's new announcement is a massive $868 million investment in the *development of an ultra-fast charging network* for its electric vehicles like the Mission E. Over the years, Tesla's Supercharger network has proven to be one of the California-based electric car maker's biggest strengths. For now, Tesla holds the status quo when it comes to having a comparable, dedicated charging infrastructure for its vehicles. This, however, is set to be challenged by Porsche's Ionity network. 
The Ionity network is being developed by Porsche and Audi in a joint venture with the BMW Group, the Ford Motor Company, and Daimler AG. Initial plans for the charging network involve the installation of 400 powerful rapid-charging stations across major European traffic routes by 2020. Work on Ionity is already underway, with the construction of the first rapid-charging stations commencing in *2017*. 
One of the biggest questions among electric car enthusiasts with regards to the Mission E, *Porsche's response to the Tesla Model S*, is how the German firm can back up its claim of charging the car with 248 miles worth of charge in just 15 minutes. With Ionity's reported standard output of 350 kW, Porsche's claim of charging the Mission E with 248 miles worth of range in just 15 minutes is quite feasible. In comparison, Tesla's Superchargers have a standard output of about 120 kW."

They finally seem to have gotten the message that it isn't about cars alone. And of course a 55k car won't come from Porsche.
So I only draw attention to the red highlighted 2017. We are now in 2018 and I have heard nothing. Elon time too?


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## Michael Russo (Oct 15, 2016)

MichelT3 said:


> (...)
> So I only draw attention to the red highlighted 2017. We are now in 2018 and I have heard nothing. Elon time too?


No, 'Ferdinand time'...


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## Michael Russo (Oct 15, 2016)

Not sure how many of you had seen this very late December video, with VW showing off their range of three prototypes in California. Reminder: ID hatchback & Crozz small SUV in 2020 (when else? ) and Minibus 2022. Reminder n°2: not sure how much production version will differ in design from these concept cars...






Apologies for the entry pic...  Fortunately the video apart from that remains totally kosher...


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## MichelT3 (Nov 16, 2016)

Michael Russo said:


> Not sure how many of you had seen this very late December video, with VW showing off their range of three prototypes in California. Reminder: ID hatchback & Crozz small SUV in 2020 (when else? ) and Minibus 2022. Reminder n°2: not sure how much production version will differ in design from these concept cars...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I do like these! Might even ... if they have range (BUZZ!) ... and a good high speed charging system.
End shot wasn't half bad either ...


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## Marcumar (Jul 20, 2017)

The Bully is nice. But 2025? Not sure if VW will exist then anymore...


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## Michael Russo (Oct 15, 2016)

More showing off by VAG at the Geneva Auto Show as summarized by Elektrek....

The ID Vizzion Concept car could be commercialized - in some form - by 2022, said Dr. Diess, Volkswagen MD...
Range of 360 miles/600 kms quotes, without reference to which norm, hopefully the new WLTP. Actually with 111 kWh, this may be a solid 320+ miles on an EPA cycle...

As a 'top of the ID line', don't expect it to be 'for the masses'... yet, objectively speaking, promising... if you believe in VW... 


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/970780375164313602
And for its live reveal, you can watch the last 7' or so of this video :


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/970777078588157952


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## $ Trillion Musk (Nov 5, 2016)

Meh.

ID = I’D rather they buy Lucid Motors and mass produce the Lucid Air.


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## Michael Russo (Oct 15, 2016)

Porsche is definitely muscling up...


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/971003478414897153


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## Badback (Apr 7, 2016)

Michael Russo said:


> Not sure how many of you had seen this very late December video, with VW showing off their range of three prototypes in California. Reminder: ID hatchback & Crozz small SUV in 2020 (when else? ) and Minibus 2022. Reminder n°2: not sure how much production version will differ in design from these concept cars...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I'll take one of those. NO, not the car.


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## Marcumar (Jul 20, 2017)

Every time they release another vaporware concept car, a little bit of that part of me, that once loved VW/Audi, is dying.

They are even proud of the environment bonus ("Umweltbonus"), replacing 160000 old fossil car with 160000 slightly less polluting new fossil cars :frowning:

And by the way, why do the ID CROZZ and ID VIZZION look so chubby?


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## Michael Russo (Oct 15, 2016)

Marcumar said:


> Every time they release another vaporware concept car, a little bit of that part of me, that once loved VW/Audi, is dying.
> (...)
> And by the way, why do the ID CROZZ and ID VIZZION look so chubby?


I'm with you, natürlich... 

So trying to be _super objective_, I will be intrigued to find out a little more about the Audi e-Tron... and, if the commercial vehicle that will be morphed from the ID Vizzion is at least somewhat like the concept car (forget the lack of steering wheel in 2021, IMHO...), it would have my attention... though I would be in Year + 2 of Midnight S≡R≡NITY by then and therefore unlikely to be wooed away...


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## DrPhyzx (Nov 20, 2017)

This is an interesting news item:

https://www.autoblog.com/2018/03/13/vw-24-billion-ev-battery-orders/

$24 billion buys a lot of batteries.


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## Marcumar (Jul 20, 2017)

https://electrek.co/2018/03/15/audi-e-tron-quattro-suv-all-electric-price/

80000€ before options. So maybe 100000-110000€ for a decently spec'd car.

What most people forget, is that even the base model of a Tesla will give you a lot of features, for which you'll have to pay premium for with other manufacturers. For example safety features, Internet connectivity, LED lights and premium interior.

I recently configured an Audi A4 Sedan with features you will get in the Tesla Model 3. I reached 60000€...


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## Michael Russo (Oct 15, 2016)

As expected. Ingolstadt figures, if Jag can go for this base price, why can't we...?  A Model 3 starting at €55-60k would be a steal... wishful thinking?

Audi confirms all-electric e-tron Quattro SUV starting price of €80,000 ($99,000)

https://electrek.co/2018/03/15/audi-e-tron-quattro-suv-all-electric-price/


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## Michael Russo (Oct 15, 2016)

I have to admit, I get a tad tired by VAG's, incl. Porsche's, executives bragging... 

https://electrek.co/2018/03/25/tesla-is-not-a-benchmark-porsche-mission-e-model-s/


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## 3V Pilot (Sep 15, 2017)

Michael Russo said:


> I have to admit, I get a tad tired by VAG's, incl. Porsche's, executives bragging...
> 
> https://electrek.co/2018/03/25/tesla-is-not-a-benchmark-porsche-mission-e-model-s/


Of course Porsche can't admit it's attempting to benchmark Tesla, that would be like an elephant acknowledging a flea on it's back. Unfortunately for Porsche (and everybody else) this flea is spreading Ebola and will wipe out anyone that ignores the vaccine. The vaccine here is to make an electric car as good as Tesla AND be able to offer a worldwide fast charging solution. Good luck Porsche (and everybody else).....so far your not vaccinated!


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## $ Trillion Musk (Nov 5, 2016)

Who is Porsche kidding? So far there isn’t any other company that provides a type of comprehensive sustainable ecosystem of low cost + high performance batteries, charging network, and compelling BEVs that makes me think “hmm... this one’s indeed a valid threat to Tesla.”

To all self proclaimed “Tesla killers” the car to beat now is the 2020 Roadster if you want to stand a chance. And oh yeah, might as well build your own charging network or just piggyback off of Tesla’s. We’re not even talking about other revolutionary capabilities such as OTA updates, neural network autonomy, Star Link (SpaceX), semi truck class 8 hauling, and Gigafactory MTBTM manufacturing... IMO Tesla is already at least 5 years ahead of the competition in all of the above categories.


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## Marcumar (Jul 20, 2017)

https://electrek.co/2018/04/12/volkswage-ev-battery-packs-brunswick-factory/

I almost stopped reading after "up to 500000 battery packs per year" and "by 2020", and already noticed the smell of vapor in the air...

And then this:
_"The Braunschweig site has built up extensive know-how in the development and production of battery systems in recent years."_

What know-how? Are they talking about 12V batteries? :grinning:


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## Guest (Apr 13, 2018)

Well, 500 000 battery packs is definitely doable. 
Firstly, likely 40kWh packs. So if they would make packs for Tesla's, that's like 250 000 packs, up to 250 000 packs... per year.
And production starts next decade. But not full speed production rather ramps starts. So everything seems reasonable.


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## Marcumar (Jul 20, 2017)

arnis said:


> Well, 500 000 battery packs is definitely doable.
> Firstly, likely 40kWh packs. So if they would make packs for Tesla's, that's like 250 000 packs, up to 250 000 packs... per year.
> And production starts next decade. But not full speed production rather ramps starts. So everything seems reasonable.


I'm just a little bit sceptical because of all the broken promises of VAG in recent years.

I found a photo gallery of the Braunschweig battery production
(Mind you, this is from 3 years ago):

https://www.triplepundit.com/2014/10/photo-gallery-e-golf-batteries-made/

Looks like there's a lot of manual labour involved. The are producing 35 eGolf per day and want to double that. Tesla is already producing four times as many Model 3.

P.S.: Doesn't even say on their website that they're producing battery packs.


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## Marcumar (Jul 20, 2017)

*I.D. Concept:*










*I.D. Neo - Production version?:*










They increased the lower air inlet, maybe to supply oxygen to the hidden combustion engine? :tongueout:


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## garsh (Apr 4, 2016)

Marcumar said:


> They increased the lower air inlet, maybe to supply oxygen to the hidden combustion engine? :tongueout:


That's where you stick the disk in, right?


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## $ Trillion Musk (Nov 5, 2016)

Marcumar said:


> I'm just a little bit sceptical because of all the broken promises of VAG in recent years.
> 
> I found a photo gallery of the Braunschweig battery production
> (Mind you, this is from 3 years ago):
> ...


If Tesla's factories looked like that, I'd be worried.


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## Marcumar (Jul 20, 2017)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1041998381608923138

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1041899712826224640
Audi e-tron finally released. IMHO, tech and design is better than the competitors (EQC, iNext), but still miles behind Tesla. Like Jaguar iPace, it's too heavy, too inefficient and too expensive.


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## atebit (Jan 26, 2018)

Porsche "Charging Parks"

https://newsroom.porsche.com/en/tec...missione-taycan-engineering-2018-1-15796.html

Not sure what they think is especially new/innovative here. As an owner of both marques, I guess on one hand I laud Porsche's investment in BEVs but I question their generally grandiose statements belittling Tesla considering there are like what, 8 production BEV P-cars in existence vs Tesla's 200,000++?


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## JWardell (May 9, 2016)

https://cleantechnica.com/2018/09/18/audi-e-tron-suv-vs-tesla-model-x-→-just-the-specs-maam/

Kind of embarrassing that a car two years in the future can't compete with a car two years old. And it will have to answer to the Model Y...



atebit said:


> Porsche "Charging Parks"
> 
> https://newsroom.porsche.com/en/tec...missione-taycan-engineering-2018-1-15796.html
> 
> Not sure what they think is especially new/innovative here. As an owner of both marques, I guess on one hand I laud Porsche's investment in BEVs but I question their generally grandiose statements belittling Tesla considering there are like what, 8 production BEV P-cars in existence vs Tesla's 200,000++?


I had friends discussing the "innovations" spewed here, and I was like uhhh..this is exactly how superchargers work. Nothing new here.


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## Gavyne (Jul 7, 2018)

I think what you guys are looking to say are all summed up in this video by Ben Sullins:






One of the best rants of the year...because it's all true.


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## $ Trillion Musk (Nov 5, 2016)

Gavyne said:


> I think what you guys are looking to say are all summed up in this video by Ben Sullins:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Ben says it best here. Amen to that! All legacy automakers ought to listen.

Personally, I would more likely consider other brands if they use the Tesla supercharger network. But based on lack of innovation, features, security and safety, they'll have to be cheaper than a Tesla.


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## Marcumar (Jul 20, 2017)

https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/volks...neo-latest-details-on-vws-2019-electric-hatch



> Senger said buyers should expect a less complex buying or leasing process with I.D. cars - not least because the company has removed many of the intricacies of combustion-engined line-ups in a bid to raise economies of scale and cut costs.


Economies of scale - Where did I hear that before? :smirk:


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## Michael Russo (Oct 15, 2016)

Marcumar said:


> https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/volks...neo-latest-details-on-vws-2019-electric-hatch
> 
> Economies of scale - Where did I hear that before? :smirk:


Why is it that I started to take everything coming out of VAG's reps mouth with a pound of salt?... :expressionless::expressionless:


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## johnthornton (May 31, 2019)

Gilberto Pe-Curto said:


> Besides Dieselgate I am a VW fan.
> Had a Golf and now A3, both company cars and I really like the build qualiry and overall.
> If they had a EV similar to Tesla, I would switch right now to an EV.
> Upssssss ... I forgot I don't have where to charge it...
> ;-)


just reached 2 years with my 2017 eGolf - 13,000 kilometres - no problems - new rules for condos and apartments to allow/encourage installation of charging facilities in undergrounds to accommodate people who do not have a garage / home - programs for workplace installation of charging equipment for employees - to facilitate ease of use / adoption of EVs - have sold the eGolf and a Tesla 3 on order - change takes time ...


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## MichelT3 (Nov 16, 2016)

johnthornton said:


> 2017 eGolf - 13,000 kilometres - no problems


If you do 13,000 km in 2 years an eGolf could be an option. I have done 13,000 km in less than 4 months. eGolf is certainly no option for me.


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