# My TM3 throttled home charging from 48 amps to 32 amps



## Mike

This is an unfolding story and figured I would post it here for sharing the stuff learned.

Situation: I typically charge at home with 48 amps feeding my Tesla wall connector.

For the past 25 months, there have been no issues.

By chance, I was in the garage and noted my "dumb" inline meter on my charge circuit was not pegged at the usual 11.x kW of power.

Long story short, this is what I saw:









I tried one unplug and re-plug cycle and then began to monitor the circuit.

The 60 amp CB felt normal (slight warmth), but the Tesla wall connector (top half) was warmer (not hot) than I ever recall.

Anyhow, over the course of a few hours, this was the profile of the power being fed to the car (yellow arrows showing the car auto-throttling down to 32 amps):









Historically, the volts as read on the UI and the volts as read on my charge circuit inline meter have always been within one (1) volt.

With this event, there was a spread of three or four volts.

This is not typical for my experience.

These two shots were taken at the same time; 227 volts at the car versus 230 volts at the circuit breaker:















After I shut everything down, I did a simple (mechanical) inspection of the charging circuit.

Once a year, I re-torque the lugs at the 60 amp CB and the (user serviceable) lugs connecting the circuit to the Tesla wall connector.

I did this about five weeks ago.

The only "hot spot" in the circuit was the top half of the Tesla wall connector.

I temporarily removed the front access panel of the wall connector to re-confirm my lug connections...all were good.

I also temporarily removed the unit from the wall without disconnecting it, to confirm my other (installation) connections (as per this file photo from spring 2018):









All my connections were good and tight, and the connection block in the above photo was not warm.

So, I figured out the magic trick to remove the upper shield to expose all the factory lug connections as shown below:









The only lugs left to check were the factory torqued lugs:









The lug on the black wire took one-half revolution to snug up.

However, the lug on the red wire would not snug up...and here it is stripped:










I've done a data dump with my mobile repair chap and he is checking logs, etc to see if the car is safe to charge, if the wall connector can be salvaged (i.e. a bigger lug nut) or if I'm buying a new wall connector next month.

The TL/DR summation I e-mailed to my mobile chap:

*TL/DR: car kept throttling from 48 amps to 32 amps. Top portion of HPWC was very warm/hot. Mechanical investigation of the charging circuit led to the discovery of two loose (factory tightened) lugs, one of which could not be snugged up because it stripped. I am unsure of the safety of charging my car using any method. I am unsure if the HPWC is salvageable. *

So just a heads up for anyone using a Tesla wall connector (May 2018 vintage) if the top half heats up and the car starts to throttle the charge rate...

Comments/input most welcome. Cheers.


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## iChris93

Mike said:


> a bigger lug nut


What does the stripped bolt screw into? Do you just need a new bolt?


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## JasonF

Shopping List: Get a handful or box of metal washers about the same size as the one on that bolt, and a tube of dielectric (silicone) grease.

Add washers to the lug one by one until the red wire is able to tighten down. Then remove it again, and add dielectric grease to the bolt and the washers. That way if you missed the perfect alignment by fractions of a millimeter, it won't arc. Remove the black one also, see if it needs washers, and then also add dielectric grease. As a bonus, the dielectric grease will stop the terminals from corroding because it forces moisture out.

If you're brave enough (which is likely since you installed a meter) you should also add dielectric grease to the incoming terminals as well, to limit the possibility of arcing. Same thing for all of the connections inside the metering device.

After that, the whole wall connector should run cool as a cucumber. If it doesn't help, then there could be something wrong with the electronics inside the wall connector, or the charging cord.


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## garsh

Great detective work there, @Mike. Glad you were able to locate the issue.


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## Garlan Garner

Mike said:


> This is an unfolding story and figured I would post it here for sharing the stuff learned.
> 
> Situation: I typically charge at home with 48 amps feeding my Tesla wall connector.
> 
> For the past 25 months, there have been no issues.
> 
> By chance, I was in the garage and noted my "dumb" inline meter on my charge circuit was not pegged at the usual 11.x kW of power.
> 
> Long story short, this is what I saw:
> 
> View attachment 34714
> 
> 
> I tried one unplug and re-plug cycle and then began to monitor the circuit.
> 
> The 60 amp CB felt normal (slight warmth), but the Tesla wall connector (top half) was warmer (not hot) than I ever recall.
> 
> Anyhow, over the course of a few hours, this was the profile of the power being fed to the car (yellow arrows showing the car auto-throttling down to 32 amps):
> 
> View attachment 34719
> 
> 
> Historically, the volts as read on the UI and the volts as read on my charge circuit inline meter have always been within one (1) volt.
> 
> With this event, there was a spread of three or four volts.
> 
> This is not typical for my experience.
> 
> These two shots were taken at the same time; 227 volts at the car versus 230 volts at the circuit breaker:
> 
> View attachment 34715
> View attachment 34716
> 
> 
> After I shut everything down, I did a simple (mechanical) inspection of the charging circuit.
> 
> Once a year, I re-torque the lugs at the 60 amp CB and the (user serviceable) lugs connecting the circuit to the Tesla wall connector.
> 
> I did this about five weeks ago.
> 
> The only "hot spot" in the circuit was the top half of the Tesla wall connector.
> 
> I temporarily removed the front access panel of the wall connector to re-confirm my lug connections...all were good.
> 
> I also temporarily removed the unit from the wall without disconnecting it, to confirm my other (installation) connections (as per this file photo from spring 2018):
> 
> View attachment 34717
> 
> 
> All my connections were good and tight, and the connection block in the above photo was not warm.
> 
> So, I figured out the magic trick to remove the upper shield to expose all the factory lug connections as shown below:
> 
> View attachment 34720
> 
> 
> The only lugs left to check were the factory torqued lugs:
> 
> View attachment 34721
> 
> 
> The lug on the black wire took one-half revolution to snug up.
> 
> However, the lug on the red wire would not snug up...and here it is stripped:
> 
> View attachment 34718
> 
> 
> I've done a data dump with my mobile repair chap and he is checking logs, etc to see if the car is safe to charge, if the wall connector can be salvaged (i.e. a bigger lug nut) or if I'm buying a new wall connector next month.
> 
> The TL/DR summation I e-mailed to my mobile chap:
> 
> *TL/DR: car kept throttling from 48 amps to 32 amps. Top portion of HPWC was very warm/hot. Mechanical investigation of the charging circuit led to the discovery of two loose (factory tightened) lugs, one of which could not be snugged up because it stripped. I am unsure of the safety of charging my car using any method. I am unsure if the HPWC is salvageable. *
> 
> So just a heads up for anyone using a Tesla wall connector (May 2018 vintage) if the top half heats up and the car starts to throttle the charge rate...
> 
> Comments/input most welcome. Cheers.


The same thing is happening to me at destination chargers. I'm not sure what to do except report this to the establishments.

I was thinking it was a problem with my car.


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## Mike

iChris93 said:


> What does the stripped bolt screw into? Do you just need a new bolt?


I suspect the net result will be a new bolt.

That bolt goes into the same style of connector as shown by the upper pink arrow (disregard the text in the photo in this context):










To update, this is the text reply I got last night after my mobile chap digested the data:

"I found that one of the three phases in the on-board charger would go into a faulted state. The root cause is equally probable to be power source vs charger in the car. The diagnostic process is by elimination. If your car charges normally at other locations, it's probably the power supply. If the car faults at locations known to be good then the issue is in the car"

"It's not the phase that I would normally see faulted when the "Power Conversion System" is at fault though."

"You can confidently charge the car with the UMC cable."

"If a phase faults, the car just carries on with the other two at 32 amps."

And regarding my wall connector:

"No worries. I'm close to a result on your connectivity concern also. I'll schedule you an appointment when I have a plan and you can move the date if it doesn't work for you". 

I may seem conservative on this issue, but I've also seen enough online threads describing electrical fires involving charging at home that I will wait and see what my mobile repair chap comes back with...


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## Mike

JasonF said:


> Shopping List: Get a handful or box of metal washers about the same size as the one on that bolt, and a tube of dielectric (silicone) grease.
> 
> Add washers to the lug one by one until the red wire is able to tighten down. Then remove it again, and add dielectric grease to the bolt and the washers. That way if you missed the perfect alignment by fractions of a millimeter, it won't arc. Remove the black one also, see if it needs washers, and then also add dielectric grease. As a bonus, the dielectric grease will stop the terminals from corroding because it forces moisture out.
> 
> If you're brave enough (which is likely since you installed a meter) you should also add dielectric grease to the incoming terminals as well, to limit the possibility of arcing. Same thing for all of the connections inside the metering device.
> 
> After that, the whole wall connector should run cool as a cucumber. If it doesn't help, then there could be something wrong with the electronics inside the wall connector, or the charging cord.


Logical advise, thanks for a workable procedure.

I'll wait for the reply from my mobile repair chap regarding the wall connector aspect before proceeding ahead.


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## iChris93

Mike said:


> I may seem conservative on this issue, but I've also seen enough online threads describing electrical fires involving charging at home that I will wait and see what my mobile repair chap comes back with...


You're taking the right approach here, in my opinion.


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## Mike

Update:

Historical data shows two other throttling events have occurred, at home:

30 June 2020:









01 July 2020:









For comparison, here is a "normal" profile (16 Jun 2020, typical):










At this point, my mobile repair chap says to find another 48 amp charging source and see what happens.

He also "trusts my judgement" regarding the repair of the lug nut situation on my wall connector.

More to follow...


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## Mike

I have replaced the one lug with the stripped threads.










As advised, I used some dielectric grease on this one connection point...

The new lug installed:










I torqued both of these main lugs to 40 inch pounds.

I will add these two lugs to my once a year, connection inspection protocol.

Since it takes about two hours of charging at 48 amps before the car throttles the flow, I'll wait until I have an expected three hour charge session before trying this out.

Probably this weekend and definitely while I am able to actively monitor the charge cycle.

If the car still throttles and the wall connector stays cool, I'll find another 48 amp source and try that to confirm it is the car and not the wall unit.

I'll update as things happen.


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## iChris93

Good luck!


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## Mike

Update: I am going to do a three hour, 48 amp test charge at another Tesla Wall Connector to see if the situation is my wall connector or the car.

The test will be at @Sandy's place this coming Monday afternoon.

I'll post the results sometime Monday evening after I get back home.


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## Mike

Thanks @Sandy for your help!

Update: The test session, using @Sandy's Gen2 Tesla Wall Connector set to deliver 48 amps, resulted in the car throttling the rate down to 32 amps after a sustained one hour and 35 minutes at 48 amps.

I've pushed this data to my mobile repair chap.

Off (?) topic question:

After I arrived back home from the remote charging session test, I plugged my car in and set things up for a charge session later.

I noticed "leaked" voltage (?):










I never paid attention before, but is it "normal" to see two volts when plugged in but not charging?

Cheers.


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## iChris93

Mike said:


> I never paid attention before, but is it "normal" to see two volts when plugged in but not charging?


Yes, I believe so.


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## Needsdecaf

Hmm, so it would seem there's an issue with your car then?


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## Mike

Needsdecaf said:


> Hmm, so it would seem there's an issue with your car then?


That is my assumption.

I hope to hear back from Tesla mobile by end of business tomorrow.


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## iChris93

iChris93 said:


> Yes, I believe so.


Just checked, and I also see 2V when plugged in but not charging.


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## Mike

iChris93 said:


> Just checked, and I also see 2V when plugged in but not charging.
> View attachment 34825


Thanks for checking that out.

One less thing to obsess over while my car is in a state where it is not operating in accordance with manufacturer specifications.


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## Mike

Update: the work that has to happen to fix this cannot be done via mobile service, therefore I'm bringing it into Ottawa SC on 13 Aug 2020 to deal with a new on board charger, as well as an unrelated (but pesky) issue regarding my LTE signal board.


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## JasonF

Mike said:


> Update: the work that has to happen to fix this cannot be done via mobile service, therefore I'm bringing it into Ottawa SC on 13 Aug 2020 to deal with a new on board charger, as well as an unrelated (but pesky) issue regarding my LTE signal board.


That's kind of curious. I wonder, is that because the mobile service people are not equipped to deal with high voltage? Because if that's not the case, it sounds like there's a good chance the Tesla Service Center refuses to deal with replacing the on-board chargers, and just swaps the entire battery assembly.


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## Mike

JasonF said:


> That's kind of curious. I wonder, is that because the mobile service people are not equipped to deal with high voltage? Because if that's not the case, it sounds like there's a good chance the Tesla Service Center refuses to deal with replacing the on-board chargers, and just swaps the entire battery assembly.


I have no idea. I'll find out once the event happens.

That said, on the electronic "repair estimate" (sorry, no link or copy as I'm unable to recall the email to get a copy) it stated one hour of labour for that job.

I'm going to go on a limb and assume swapping the battery assembly takes more than one hour.


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## JasonF

Mike said:


> I'm going to go on a limb and assume swapping the battery assembly takes more than one hour.


I'm not sure that's so definitive, from what I saw on Electrified Garage and Rich Rebuilds. The Model 3 battery is much simpler than the Model S one.


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## iChris93

JasonF said:


> I'm not sure that's so definitive, from what I saw on Electrified Garage and Rich Rebuilds. The Model 3 battery is much simpler than the Model S one.


I recall seeing just the opposite. The S was designed for battery swapping. They gave up on that by the time they designed the 3.

Edit: here's a video where they call it a nightmare. 



I can't add a time stamp on mobile but it's at 14m 17s


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## JasonF

iChris93 said:


> I recall seeing just the opposite. The S was designed for battery swapping. They gave up on that by the time they designed the 3.


That's one of the videos I'm referring to. If you look at about 5 minutes and compare it to a Model S battery, the 3 has far fewer bolts to the car. At about 13 minutes they point out that the connectors are all at one end of the battery, as opposed to the S which has them at both ends. Later, they disconnect the coolant lines, which are somewhat annoying, but still fairly simple.

Of course they spent a lot of time goofing around and explaining stuff. So it's entirely possible that with a well practiced method and better equipment than a wooden crate, the battery could be switched out in about an hour. It's a little optimistic, maybe, but it could be possible.

EDIT: At about 20 minutes, you can see why I think it could go either way. The on-board chargers are under the seat, but they have all kinds of stuff piled around and on top of them. So it's entirely possible that it takes about the same amount of time to replace one of those as it does to replace the whole battery. Plus you wouldn't know _which_ charger to replace, so you'd have to test first, or replace both, which takes even more time.


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## Mike

JasonF said:


> I'm not sure that's so definitive, from what I saw on Electrified Garage and Rich Rebuilds. The Model 3 battery is much simpler than the Model S one.


I asked the question.

Here is the direct unedited quote from my mobile repair chap (who is also the team leader for the repair team at the Ottawa SC):

*The repair will replace the on board Power Conversion System, basically the on board charger, and not a battery pack swap or even removal.*

So, it's a one hour job that requires removal of the rear seat cover et al as shown in that Rich Rebuilds video being discussed.


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## JasonF

That answers that, then. And kind of good news, because eventually that will be the "recommended repair" for cars out of warranty with that issue. It would suck if the "recommended repair" was replacement of the battery pack.


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## Garlan Garner

Mike said:


> I asked the question.
> 
> Here is the direct unedited quote from my mobile repair chap (who is also the team leader for the repair team at the Ottawa SC):
> 
> *The repair will replace the on board Power Conversion System, basically the on board charger, and not a battery pack swap or even removal.*
> 
> So, it's a one hour job that requires removal of the rear seat cover et al as shown in that Rich Rebuilds video being discussed.


Did he mention what the cost would be?


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## Mike

Garlan Garner said:


> Did he mention what the cost would be?


Zero to me as this is all covered by warranty.


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## Garlan Garner

Mike said:


> Zero to me as this is all covered by warranty.


Is it possible for you to ask when you have the work done?


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## Mike

Garlan Garner said:


> Is it possible for you to ask when you have the work done?


Will do.


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## Mike

Mike said:


> I asked the question.
> 
> Here is the direct unedited quote from my mobile repair chap (who is also the team leader for the repair team at the Ottawa SC):
> 
> *The repair will replace the on board Power Conversion System, basically the on board charger, and not a battery pack swap or even removal.*
> 
> So, it's a one hour job that requires removal of the rear seat cover et al as shown in that Rich Rebuilds video being discussed.


I'm figuring this could be a "trust but verify" or "tin foil hat" situation:

For the heck of it, I labeled my battery pac...and am publishing it here so if after the work is done and the labels are gone...


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## Mike

Garlan Garner said:


> Is it possible for you to ask when you have the work done?


2.5 hours labour; $CAD 1,450.00 (+/-) plus HST.


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## Mike

Last night/this morning was my first true test of the replaced power conversion unit.

I had 24% SOC with a start time set for 0100 and a target SOC of 90%.

My 48 AMP setup get me 15% per hour, so my expectation for the 66% increase was about four hours and 20 minutes.

It took four hours and 17 minutes 










So, I consider my initial situation successfully resolved.



Now to focus on my wifes new Kona EV, arriving tomorrow...


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## Deadbattery

Mike said:


> Last night/this morning was my first true test of the replaced power conversion unit.
> 
> I had 24% SOC with a start time set for 0100 and a target SOC of 90%.
> 
> My 48 AMP setup get me 15% per hour, so my expectation for the 66% increase was about four hours and 20 minutes.
> 
> It took four hours and 17 minutes
> 
> View attachment 35238
> 
> 
> So, I consider my initial situation successfully resolved.
> 
> 
> 
> Now to focus on my wifes new Kona EV, arriving tomorrow...


Great informative thread Mike.

I am having similar symptoms where the charge rate drops from 48 to 32 amps. I confess I have no data on the condition of the unit because I have never inspected it.

setup as follows
2018 M 3 RWD LR 
2018 Wall unit, Installed by electrician (I did the Dip switches because he set it up wrong) 
everything is inside the garage, the charger is on a dedicated 60 amp circuit maybe 20 ft from the circuit box.

Symptoms started Junish, frankly it may have been longer, I tend to charge on delay so it was only by chance that I saw the "Reduced Charge Rate" message on the car.

Did you get a "reduced charge rate" message on the car? or did you just get less charge?

I am going to go plug in at a buddy's house to rule out the car being the problem. Supercharging has NOT been a problem.


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## Mike

Deadbattery said:


> Did you get a "reduced charge rate" message on the car?


Yes, I did get that message.

Unplugging and re-plugging in and re-starting the 48 amp charge event would result in getting 48 amps for a short while, then down to 32 amps.

Since your situation sounds like what happened to me, once you have determined it is not your wall connector, note the time (if able) when the charge dropped from 48 to 32 amps...or at least the charge cycle start time as this data really helped the mobile tech remotely confirm what the issue was.

Cheers.


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## Deadbattery

Mike said:


> Yes, I did get that message.
> 
> Unplugging and re-plugging in and re-starting the 48 amp charge event would result in getting 48 amps for a short while, then down to 32 amps.
> 
> Since your situation sounds like what happened to me, once you have determined it is not your wall connector, note the time (if able) when the charge dropped from 48 to 32 amps...or at least the charge cycle start time as this data really helped the mobile tech remotely confirm what the issue was.
> 
> Cheers.


Awesome. Will do.

Jay


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## Garlan Garner

A Ton of people are having the same problem. 

Looks like many PSE's are having to be replaced to the tune of $1,700. Its a shame. 

I wonder if its possible to have a re-call. Its just too expensive. 

Don't tell me about it being a "Tesla" and owners should be able to afford $1,700 repairs.


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## iChris93

Garlan Garner said:


> A Ton of people are having the same problem.
> 
> Looks like many PSE's are having to be replaced to the tune of $1,700. Its a shame.


Where have you seen that a ton of people are having this issue?

Is it covered under the battery/powertrain warranty?


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## Mike

Garlan Garner said:


> A Ton of people are having the same problem.
> 
> Looks like many PSE's are having to be replaced to the tune of $1,700. Its a shame.
> 
> I wonder if its possible to have a re-call. Its just too expensive.
> 
> Don't tell me about it being a "Tesla" and owners should be able to afford $1,700 repairs.


Hopefully my replacement was an improved version of the original...


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## Garlan Garner

iChris93 said:


> Where have you seen that a ton of people are having this issue?
> 
> Is it covered under the battery/powertrain warranty?


Its not covered over 50K miles.


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## iChris93

Garlan Garner said:


> Its not covered over 50K miles.


That's unfortunate to hear. I would expect something like this to be considered part of the longer battery/powertrain warranty.


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## JWardell

I'm just reading back through this thread. It's a shame that the onscreen error didn't say _why_ the charge rate was reduced. There is a ton of data, and a ton of alerts, from every part of the system from the battery to the PCS to the charge port to the charger and even a wall plug. I can capture and decode them. Well, Tesla can too, so service SHOULD have just logged in and looked at the reason, but instead you had to waste time and hope to be able to find it blind.


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## Deadbattery

iChris93 said:


> Where have you seen that a ton of people are having this issue?
> 
> Is it covered under the battery/powertrain warranty?


Sorry, what is a "PSE"?


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## Deadbattery

JWardell said:


> I'm just reading back through this thread. It's a shame that the onscreen error didn't say _why_ the charge rate was reduced. There is a ton of data, and a ton of alerts, from every part of the system from the battery to the PCS to the charge port to the charger and even a wall plug. I can capture and decode them. Well, Tesla can too, so service SHOULD have just logged in and looked at the reason, but instead you had to waste time and hope to be able to find it blind.


Service did ask for a time stamp so your intuition is correct. There is plenty of data.

I suspect I have a $500 door stop, It is now ~2 years old so I cannot see them repairing or replacing it. If nothing else, I will make sure to find out if it is safe to continue using in it's diminished state.

( assuming it is not the car that is the problem)

J


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## Garlan Garner

Deadbattery said:


> Sorry, what is a "PSE"?


Sorry - typo. It should have been PCS.


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## Garlan Garner

Deadbattery said:


> Service did ask for a time stamp so your intuition is correct. There is plenty of data.
> 
> I suspect I have a $500 door stop, It is now ~2 years old so I cannot see them repairing or replacing it. If nothing else, I will make sure to find out if it is safe to continue using in it's diminished state.
> 
> ( assuming it is not the car that is the problem)
> 
> J


I was told by Tesla that charging at 32A ONLY isn't a problem. Then I had to ask: Well what about the fact that the car won't let me charge at 48A....is that a problem. I was to by 2 SC's that it isn't a problem.

I've been charging at 32A for 6 months now. No problem.


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## Deadbattery

Garlan Garner said:


> I was told by Tesla that charging at 32A ONLY isn't a problem. Then I had to ask: Well what about the fact that the car won't let me charge at 48A....is that a problem. I was to by 2 SC's that it isn't a problem.
> 
> I've been charging at 32A for 6 months now. No problem.


Charging at 32 amps is NOT a problem except that I spent $500 and ran a dedicated 60 amp circuit so I could ( and did until recently) charge at 48 amps. 48 amps is ~43 miles an hour a LOT faster than the 29ish I get at 32.

At the end of the day will I survive, sure, but the equipment was not designed to work this way.

Maybe I am missing something about what you're saying? (this is likely, I am not very smart)


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## iChris93

Deadbattery said:


> Charging at 32 amps is NOT a problem except that I spent $500 and ran a dedicated 60 amp circuit so I could ( and did until recently) charge at 48 amps. 48 amps is ~43 miles an hour a LOT faster than the 29ish I get at 32.
> 
> At the end of the day will I survive, sure, but the equipment was not designed to work this way.


Are you still in the powertrain warranty? 8yr 100-120k miles. If so, I would argue with service that this is part of the powertrain and thus should be replaced under the warranty at no cost.


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## Deadbattery

iChris93 said:


> Are you still in the powertrain warranty? 8yr 100-120k miles. If so, I would argue with service that this is part of the powertrain and thus should be replaced under the warranty at no cost.


Well, I THINK what is wrong is the CHARGER. I believe the car is fine. Tesla is reviewing data and will get back to me sometime before my appointment at the end of OCTOBER.

I think that the charger is likely out of warrantee too but I also think this maybe a manufacturing defect since the same problem seems to be occuring for others.

Regardless, assuming it is the charger I will grouse but expect nothing. If the problem is the car I will grouse MORE but still expect that this is not going to be considered part of the drivetrain.

I have >50k on the car now so am flying nekid!

I expect to join the legions of folks doing their own repairs on these cars since 1, there is no place to go except tesla an 2, most of the repairs seem like they are bolt on bolt off types of things that even a knucklehead like me can do.

For example: the Front upper control arm went at 51,000 miles and that is a $600 fix. Ouch.


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## Long Ranger

Deadbattery said:


> I think that the charger is likely out of warrantee too


The Wall Connector warranty is 48 months, so hopefully that's the problem.
https://www.tesla.com/sites/default/files/downloads/na_charging_equipment_warranty.pdf


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## Deadbattery

Long Ranger said:


> The Wall Connector warranty is 48 months, so hopefully that's the problem.
> https://www.tesla.com/sites/default/files/downloads/na_charging_equipment_warranty.pdf


Ooooo Goodie! Thanks for that bit of good news


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## Garlan Garner

iChris93 said:


> Are you still in the powertrain warranty? 8yr 100-120k miles. If so, I would argue with service that this is part of the powertrain and thus should be replaced under the warranty at no cost.


Is the PCS part of the powertrain?


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## Garlan Garner

Deadbattery said:


> Ooooo Goodie! Thanks for that bit of good news


Are there any destination chargers around you that will allow you to check your charging rate?


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## Long Ranger

Garlan Garner said:


> Is the PCS part of the powertrain?


I sure don't think so. Note that Tesla doesn't actually call it a powertrain warranty, it's called the "Battery and Drive Unit Limited Warranty". Looks to me like it only applies to those two specific components.
https://www.tesla.com/sites/default/files/downloads/tesla-new-vehicle-limited-warranty-en-us.pdf


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## JWardell

Long Ranger said:


> I sure don't think so. Note that Tesla doesn't actually call it a powertrain warranty, it's called the "Battery and Drive Unit Limited Warranty". Looks to me like it only applies to those two specific components.
> https://www.tesla.com/sites/default/files/downloads/tesla-new-vehicle-limited-warranty-en-us.pdf


Well it is part of the battery pack...


----------



## Long Ranger

JWardell said:


> Well it is part of the battery pack...


Good point. The penthouse does seem to be part of the pack. Maybe the PCS is covered. My concerns are that the warranty appears to have a pretty narrow definition of the Battery "The Tesla lithium-ion battery (the 'Battery')" and it doesn't mention the "pack" at all. Plus, we've seen reports that Tesla can replace the PCS via the rear seat penthouse access without dropping the battery pack.

I hope I'm wrong, and I think it's definitely worth pushing the battery pack argument with Tesla. There are lots of examples where service advisors aren't consistent on what's covered under warranty.


----------



## Deadbattery

UPDATE...

Tesla finally got back to me.

They are saying it is the PCS...

I am guessing this is an expensive fix so I followed up with them to see if I can leave it and just live with the reduced 32 amp charging or if it needs to be replaced.

I was able to confirm that my charger is fine. I had the neighbor come up and charge successfully at 48 AMPs for a while, so the CAR is the only place left for the problem to be.

Have any of you needed to replace this OUT of warranty? Based on my few google searches this does not seem anywhere near as common as the Upper Control Arm ( which I also did)


----------



## Garlan Garner

Deadbattery said:


> UPDATE...
> 
> Tesla finally got back to me.
> 
> They are saying it is the PCS...
> 
> I am guessing this is an expensive fix so I followed up with them to see if I can leave it and just live with the reduced 32 amp charging or if it needs to be replaced.
> 
> I was able to confirm that my charger is fine. I had the neighbor come up and charge successfully at 48 AMPs for a while, so the CAR is the only place left for the problem to be.
> 
> Have any of you needed to replace this OUT of warranty? Based on my few google searches this does not seem anywhere near as common as the Upper Control Arm ( which I also did)


I have not replaced the PCS. I have the same problem. My price quote from Tesla is $1700.

I think that's ridiculous.


----------



## Deadbattery

Deadbattery said:


> UPDATE...
> 
> Tesla finally got back to me.
> 
> They are saying it is the PCS...
> 
> I am guessing this is an expensive fix so I followed up with them to see if I can leave it and just live with the reduced 32 amp charging or if it needs to be replaced.
> 
> I was able to confirm that my charger is fine. I had the neighbor come up and charge successfully at 48 AMPs for a while, so the CAR is the only place left for the problem to be.
> 
> Have any of you needed to replace this OUT of warranty? Based on my few google searches this does not seem anywhere near as common as the Upper Control Arm ( which I also did)


So ... NOT the charger. Tesla Identifies the PCS as the cause. The estimate to replace it is $1,800

Yes, $1,800

The only symptom right now is I can't charge at 48 AMPS. I can live with that. So can I leave it? What say you Tesla experts.

(Yes I am out of warranty (54,000), no this is NOT part of the battery)


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## Garlan Garner

Deadbattery said:


> So ... NOT the charger. Tesla Identifies the PCS as the cause. The estimate to replace it is $1,800
> 
> Yes, $1,800
> 
> The only symptom right now is I can't charge at 48 AMPS. I can live with that. So can I leave it? What say you Tesla experts.
> 
> (Yes I am out of warranty (54,000), no this is NOT part of the battery)


Well, I've been charging at 32Amps for the past 7 months.

I have 79K on my battery and plan to get the PCS changed out when I need a battery in about 3 years.


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## Deadbattery

Garlan Garner said:


> Well, I've been charging at 32Amps for the past 7 months.
> 
> I have 79K on my battery and plan to get the PCS changed out when I need a battery in about 3 years.


I cancelled my appointment. I don't know what is going to happen but as cars come out of warranty It is possible we see enough of this to warrant a recall.

I suspect a bunch of failures similar to ours go undetected as only a fraction of people get a home charger and a fraction of those have 60 AMP circuits to put them on to enable 48 AMP charging.

Regardless, it is a problem. It is a central component of the car and super expensive to replace.

Grrr

Question did you change the DIP switches in your home charger down to 32 amps or just lower the charge rate in the car settings?


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## Garlan Garner

Deadbattery said:


> I cancelled my appointment. I don't know what is going to happen but as cars come out of warranty It is possible we see enough of this to warrant a recall.
> 
> I suspect a bunch of failures similar to ours go undetected as only a fraction of people get a home charger and a fraction of those have 60 AMP circuits to put them on to enable 48 AMP charging.
> 
> Regardless, it is a problem. It is a central component of the car and super expensive to replace.
> 
> Grrr
> 
> Question did you change the DIP switches in your home charger down to 32 amps or just lower the charge rate in the car settings?


I lowered the charge rate.

The problem for me is that Tesla knows about this. They absolutely have to know.


----------



## Deadbattery

Garlan Garner said:


> I lowered the charge rate.
> 
> The problem for me is that Tesla knows about this. They absolutely have to know.


Ya, they know, them fixing it is going to be how many people get stung by it AFTER running out of warranty. As of now there are not THAT many of us over 50k but I imagine over the next 12-18 months things like $600 Upper control arms and $1,800 PCSs are going to create a little bit of an uproar. (remember living in fear of a $400 clutch job?)

Look, I know I am on the frontier here, I expect a few things to go wrong. But you don't get to tell me systemic problems are expenses I should bear because they did not happen to show themselves for 50,001 miles.


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## Mike

When I went to unplug the car this morning (normal, overnight session at my home), the SOC was only 86% versus the normal 90%.

I unplugged the car and then re-connected it, and immediately the car started charging again until it topped out at 90%.

For giggles, I figured I go check my Eyedro (online monitor system) profile to have a look at why it cut out at 86%:










Sure enough, as shown above, the typical 48 amp session started at 0100 with no fan fare, but was throttled by 1/3 at or about 0215 and then went back to 48 amps at or about 0312.

Also note the interruptions at or about 0342, 0411, 0440 and then stopped (at only 86%) at or about 0451.

I manually initiated the top up session that began at 0651 and ended at 0704.

For context, here is an example session profile, the last time there was a "normal" large charge session:










I emailed this info to the chap _who used to be _my mobile repair chap, asking him to examine the logs...

If I get no response from him (or his replacement, whom I don't have an email address for), I'll send this info via the app.

If this is indeed another failing charger, I hope it is not indicative of long term issues with the design of this particular line replaceable unit.


----------



## Deadbattery

Mike said:


> This is an unfolding story and figured I would post it here for sharing the stuff learned.
> 
> Situation: I typically charge at home with 48 amps feeding my Tesla wall connector.
> 
> For the past 25 months, there have been no issues.
> 
> By chance, I was in the garage and noted my "dumb" inline meter on my charge circuit was not pegged at the usual 11.x kW of power.
> 
> Long story short, this is what I saw:
> 
> View attachment 34714
> 
> 
> I tried one unplug and re-plug cycle and then began to monitor the circuit.
> 
> The 60 amp CB felt normal (slight warmth), but the Tesla wall connector (top half) was warmer (not hot) than I ever recall.
> 
> Anyhow, over the course of a few hours, this was the profile of the power being fed to the car (yellow arrows showing the car auto-throttling down to 32 amps):
> 
> View attachment 34719
> 
> 
> Historically, the volts as read on the UI and the volts as read on my charge circuit inline meter have always been within one (1) volt.
> 
> With this event, there was a spread of three or four volts.
> 
> This is not typical for my experience.
> 
> These two shots were taken at the same time; 227 volts at the car versus 230 volts at the circuit breaker:
> 
> View attachment 34715
> View attachment 34716
> 
> 
> After I shut everything down, I did a simple (mechanical) inspection of the charging circuit.
> 
> Once a year, I re-torque the lugs at the 60 amp CB and the (user serviceable) lugs connecting the circuit to the Tesla wall connector.
> 
> I did this about five weeks ago.
> 
> The only "hot spot" in the circuit was the top half of the Tesla wall connector.
> 
> I temporarily removed the front access panel of the wall connector to re-confirm my lug connections...all were good.
> 
> I also temporarily removed the unit from the wall without disconnecting it, to confirm my other (installation) connections (as per this file photo from spring 2018):
> 
> View attachment 34717
> 
> 
> All my connections were good and tight, and the connection block in the above photo was not warm.
> 
> So, I figured out the magic trick to remove the upper shield to expose all the factory lug connections as shown below:
> 
> View attachment 34720
> 
> 
> The only lugs left to check were the factory torqued lugs:
> 
> View attachment 34721
> 
> 
> The lug on the black wire took one-half revolution to snug up.
> 
> However, the lug on the red wire would not snug up...and here it is stripped:
> 
> View attachment 34718
> 
> 
> I've done a data dump with my mobile repair chap and he is checking logs, etc to see if the car is safe to charge, if the wall connector can be salvaged (i.e. a bigger lug nut) or if I'm buying a new wall connector next month.
> 
> The TL/DR summation I e-mailed to my mobile chap:
> 
> *TL/DR: car kept throttling from 48 amps to 32 amps. Top portion of HPWC was very warm/hot. Mechanical investigation of the charging circuit led to the discovery of two loose (factory tightened) lugs, one of which could not be snugged up because it stripped. I am unsure of the safety of charging my car using any method. I am unsure if the HPWC is salvageable. *
> 
> So just a heads up for anyone using a Tesla wall connector (May 2018 vintage) if the top half heats up and the car starts to throttle the charge rate...
> 
> Comments/input most welcome. Cheers.


I don't think this is a charger issue.

This is exactly what my car did and ultimately was diagnosed as a board failure on the Power Converter (not the right name but you be you Luke Skywalker)

The replacement was quoted as $2,100 which I suggested to Tesla I would wait for the recall.

The recall likely won't happen since the number of people that pull a 60 amp circuit so that they would know the board has failed is a small subset of owners. I also suspect the board has been fixed on newer cars.

When was your car built? I am an early build VIN ~13,000 2018

On the good news side. I reduced the charge demand on the car from 48 to 32 and have had no problems since. It is just annoyingly slower.

Best

J


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## Mike

I heard back from my mobile repair contact:

_*Let's get a larger sample size before getting too far into this one. The newer rev of PCS that is now in your car is not prone to the issues your first one had. This could be a grid transient causing a phase to shut down, so let's see if you continue to have this happen and please let me know.*_



Mike said:


> I asked the question.
> 
> Here is the direct unedited quote from my mobile repair chap (who is also the team leader for the repair team at the Ottawa SC):
> 
> *The repair will replace the on board Power Conversion System, basically the on board charger, and not a battery pack swap or even removal.*
> 
> So, it's a one hour job that requires removal of the rear seat cover et al as shown in that Rich Rebuilds video being discussed.





Deadbattery said:


> I don't think this is a charger issue.
> 
> This is exactly what my car did and ultimately was diagnosed as a board failure on the Power Converter (not the right name but you be you Luke Skywalker)


@Deadbattery you are correct, I have used the incorrect terminology.

As my repair chap stated, it was the "_*Power Conversion System, basically the on board charger*_" that was replaced in my car last summer.



Deadbattery said:


> When was your car built? I am an early build VIN ~13,000 2018


May 2018 build, VIN around 23,500...but since I have the new and improved PCS...



Deadbattery said:


> On the good news side. I reduced the charge demand on the car from 48 to 32 and have had no problems since. It is just annoyingly slower.


Not an option for me.

I bought and paid for a 48 amp system and, until it is off warranty, that is what I insist and expect it to operate at.


----------



## Deadbattery

Mike said:


> I heard back from my mobile repair contact:
> 
> _*Let's get a larger sample size before getting too far into this one. The newer rev of PCS that is now in your car is not prone to the issues your first one had. This could be a grid transient causing a phase to shut down, so let's see if you continue to have this happen and please let me know.*_
> 
> @Deadbattery you are correct, I have used the incorrect terminology.
> 
> As my repair chap stated, it was the "_*Power Conversion System, basically the on board charger*_" that was replaced in my car last summer.
> 
> May 2018 build, VIN around 23,500...but since I have the new and improved PCS...
> 
> Not an option for me.
> 
> I bought and paid for a 48 amp system and, until it is off warranty, that is what I insist and expect it to operate at.


AHH, I was at 52,000 miles when I found the problem. So off warrantee. Same problem with the Front left suspension part that was $600 bucks. NOT THAT I AM BITTER!

;-)


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## Mike

Deadbattery said:


> AHH, I was at 52,000 miles when I found the problem. So off warrantee. Same problem with the Front left suspension part that was $600 bucks. NOT THAT I AM BITTER!
> 
> ;-)


Seen.

Once off warranty, I'm sure my attitude will change


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## Mike

I had my first charging event since the 15 May 2021 interrupted event and it was "normal".

60% uplift in four hours and two minutes (normal 48 amp profile).


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## orekart

Just a "me, too." Failing PCS I'm on the second one, warranty for replace part expired Feb 2020 and replacement failed (unstable 48A charging) August 2021. Quoted about $1800 and unknown lead time to replace. **** that. Pulled out for $90 of labor to troubleshoot.

Waiting for a recall.


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## Deadbattery

orekart said:


> Just a "me, too." Failing PCS I'm on the second one, warranty for replace part expired Feb 2020 and replacement failed (unstable 48A charging) August 2021. Quoted about $1800 and unknown lead time to replace. **** that. Pulled out for $90 of labor to troubleshoot.
> 
> Waiting for a recall.


We might wait a long time. some guys keep telling me they convinced service that this is covered under the battery warrantee. I have left mine unfixed. I just charge a little slower. I do miss 43 miles an hour. It made a difference.

J


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## JeffC

No offense intended to anyone, but unless one needs to get back on the road unusually quickly, it's easier on the grid and more efficient to charge at lower power. Higher current means more losses and is harder on the grid.


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## garsh

JeffC said:


> ...and more efficient to charge at lower power. Higher current means more losses...


This isn't correct. There are charging losses that are constant over time and don't change with charging rate. This includes whatever systems are awake and functioning during the charging session. These losses are several orders of magnitude higher than any losses that increase with charging rate. This results in higher losses at lower charging currents. If efficiency is a goal, charge at the highest AC rate available.

This Is How Tesla Owners Geek Out on Their Cars' Data
​_Charging efficiency varies greatly depending on the source: our 240-volt Tesla Wall Connector at our office is averaging 94 percent efficiency, while we've seen as little as 58 percent of the energy make it into our Model 3 when plugging into a standard 120-volt home outlet._​
Model 3 Fact-Finding - AC Charging Efficiency Measured

average AC charging efficiency at 240 V / 32 A of 89.2%.
If you charge at 48 A you can expect slightly higher efficiency than this, as the car doesn't need to remain awake as long to take in the same amount of energy.
The average AC charging efficiency at 120 V was around 75% and no more than 79%.


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## JeffC

garsh said:


> This isn't correct. There are charging losses that are constant over time and don't change with charging rate. This includes whatever systems are awake and functioning during the charging session. These losses are several orders of magnitude higher than any losses that increase with charging rate. This results in higher losses at lower charging currents. If efficiency is a goal, charge at the highest AC rate available.
> 
> This Is How Tesla Owners Geek Out on Their Cars' Data
> ​_Charging efficiency varies greatly depending on the source: our 240-volt Tesla Wall Connector at our office is averaging 94 percent efficiency, while we've seen as little as 58 percent of the energy make it into our Model 3 when plugging into a standard 120-volt home outlet._​
> Model 3 Fact-Finding - AC Charging Efficiency Measured
> 
> average AC charging efficiency at 240 V / 32 A of 89.2%.
> If you charge at 48 A you can expect slightly higher efficiency than this, as the car doesn't need to remain awake as long to take in the same amount of energy.
> The average AC charging efficiency at 120 V was around 75% and no more than 79%.


Thanks for the info @garsh .

To be more clear I wasn't trying to compare 120 V charging with 240 V charging, but medium vs higher power 240 V charging. (So more apples to apples.)

Assuming as the OP said, he has a 240 V solution, very high current must have higher resistive and inductive losses than lower current since, for example power loss through a resistor (i.e. wiring, contacts, transistors, etc.) is resistance times current squared. So the effect is a square law and not linear. A square law effect has 4x the losses at twice the power, for example, so 48 Amp charging would have 4x the major losses as 24 Amp.

The other network factor to consider is that 48 Amps is significantly harder on the grid than say 32 Amps. The grid simply wasn't designed for everyone to be pulling that much power at the same time (i.e., after midnight), for hours at a time. When there are more EVs, this could become a problem for local/neighborhood power grids.

(Utility companies are already needing to upgrade transformers in neighborhoods with many EVs here in California, for example, but the problem runs deeper when EV adoption is even greater. Charging at lower power lessens the impact on the grid.)

The fixed losses in the charging system, i.e. car computers active during charging, should be a very much smaller effect than the resistive and inductive losses at higher charging currents. If the fixed losses are signficant, then Tesla has bad power efficiency engineering, and that's probably not the case.


----------



## garsh

JeffC said:


> To be more clear I wasn't trying to compare 120 V charging with 240 V charging, but medium vs higher power 240 V charging. (So more apples to apples.)


Fair enough.


JeffC said:


> The fixed losses in the charging system, i.e. car computers active during charging, should be a very much smaller effect than the resistive and inductive losses at higher charging currents. If the fixed losses are signficant, then Tesla has bad power efficiency engineering, and that's probably not the case.


Tesla isn't that good in this area. That's one area where a Nissan Leaf was MUCH better than a Tesla. A Leaf could sit for several days without incurring any noticeable loss in range. But a Tesla that isn't sleeping (which it won't be during charging) will lose 10 miles/day (about 100 watts).

I did a calculation a while ago to figure out just how long your wiring run would have to be in order for the resistive losses in your wiring to be equal to the total losses seen within the vehicle (reference). It was about 1000 ft. I can't believe that a Tesla has the equivalent of 1000 ft of wiring in internal resistance.

Surely somebody out there has actually run an experiment of charging their car on 240v at various current levels and recorded the losses at each level. I'll try to search around and see if I can find anything.

And if anybody wants to perform these experiments, it would be very useful information to have.


----------



## JeffC

garsh said:


> Fair enough.
> 
> Tesla isn't that good in this area. That's one area where a Nissan Leaf was MUCH better than a Tesla. A Leaf could sit for several days without incurring any noticeable loss in range. But a Tesla that isn't sleeping (which it won't be during charging) will lose 10 miles/day (about 100 watts).
> 
> I did a calculation a while ago to figure out just how long your wiring run would have to be in order for the resistive losses in your wiring to be equal to the total losses seen within the vehicle (reference). It was about 1000 ft. I can't believe that a Tesla has the equivalent of 1000 ft of wiring in internal resistance.
> 
> Surely somebody out there has actually run an experiment of charging their car on 240v at various current levels and recorded the losses at each level. I'll try to search around and see if I can find anything.
> 
> And if anybody wants to perform these experiments, it would be very useful information to have.


Well, I will point out that 100 Watts for fixed power is less than 1% of 11.5 kW charging at 240 Volts, 48 Amps, so almost vanishingly insignificant. Even if the fixed power were double that when charging, it would still be vanishingly small compared to the charging power.

Also, I'm not so much referring to the wiring to get to the car, although that is significant. Every path that charging current takes inside the car itself has resistive and inductive losses, the former of which go up as the square of current. There is no such thing as a 100% efficient wire, transistor, connector, etc. All have losses affected by the square law.

I think we also need to be considerate of the gird. Charging at 11.5 kW for hours at a time is equivalent to running an electric clothes dryer and 2+ electric stove burners at full power simultaneously for many hours. The grid was designed for lower and intermittent power levels. We have had reports of street transformers overheating, etc., probably due to EV charging.

https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/stamp/stamp.jsp?arnumber=7264982
https://www.researchgate.net/public...V_EV_Charging_and_Energy_Storage_Applications
https://people.cs.pitt.edu/~stl86/papers/eenergy18-analysis.pdf
https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2021/10/13/electric-vehicles-grid-upgrade/


----------



## JWardell

garsh said:


> Fair enough.
> 
> Tesla isn't that good in this area. That's one area where a Nissan Leaf was MUCH better than a Tesla. A Leaf could sit for several days without incurring any noticeable loss in range. But a Tesla that isn't sleeping (which it won't be during charging) will lose 10 miles/day (about 100 watts).
> 
> I did a calculation a while ago to figure out just how long your wiring run would have to be in order for the resistive losses in your wiring to be equal to the total losses seen within the vehicle (reference). It was about 1000 ft. I can't believe that a Tesla has the equivalent of 1000 ft of wiring in internal resistance.
> 
> Surely somebody out there has actually run an experiment of charging their car on 240v at various current levels and recorded the losses at each level. I'll try to search around and see if I can find anything.
> 
> And if anybody wants to perform these experiments, it would be very useful information to have.


The losses are mostly in the house wiring (and wall connector) before it gets to the car. Don't forget Tesla shares AC wiring with supercharging, so those 600A rated cables won't have much loss at tiny AC currents.
Additionally, depending on the topology of the AC to DC charger, these often operate more efficiently closer to the maximum power levels. That's counteracted by some heat, but you will probably find that charging at 32 or 40 amps is more efficient than at 10 amps for example. 
The best way to measure the before-car losses is to simply look at voltage drop when charging starts vs once it hits full current. Of course if the drop is too drastic, the car will automatically reduce its charge current.
If you have Teslafi and have charged at a few locations multiple times, it's very easy to see the efficiency drops significantly with voltage. Maybe 96% at 240V, 90 at 200V, and less than 80% at 120.
Another reason why I roll my eyes at those who balk at wireless charging only operating at 90% efficiency or so. It's literally better than my home wired connection.


----------



## JeffC

JWardell said:


> The losses are mostly in the house wiring (and wall connector) before it gets to the car. Don't forget Tesla shares AC wiring with supercharging, so those 600A rated cables won't have much loss at tiny AC currents.
> Additionally, depending on the topology of the AC to DC charger, these often operate more efficiently closer to the maximum power levels. That's counteracted by some heat, but you will probably find that charging at 32 or 40 amps is more efficient than at 10 amps for example.
> The best way to measure the before-car losses is to simply look at voltage drop when charging starts vs once it hits full current. Of course if the drop is too drastic, the car will automatically reduce its charge current.
> If you have Teslafi and have charged at a few locations multiple times, it's very easy to see the efficiency drops significantly with voltage. Maybe 96% at 240V, 90 at 200V, and less than 80% at 120.
> Another reason why I roll my eyes at those who balk at wireless charging only operating at 90% efficiency or so. It's literally better than my home wired connection.


FWIW the 90% efficiency for wireless is probably just to get the power to the car, in other words, all the other losses would be in addition to (multiplied by) the 90%, i.e. subtract another 10% overall.


----------



## Mesprit87

garsh said:


> Surely somebody out there has actually run an experiment of charging their car on 240v at various current levels and recorded the losses at each level. I'll try to search around and see if I can find anything.
> 
> And if anybody wants to perform these experiments, it would be very useful information to have.


Efficiency seem to slay the initial topic...
I'll bring back the author as I think he is well equipped to measure what what you ask for. Plus, he gathered great data up to now.
@Mike is that something that you might consider doing? Or is it going to mess with the usual process you have in place?


----------



## Mike

Mesprit87 said:


> Efficiency seem to slay the initial topic...
> I'll bring back the author as I think he is well equipped to measure what what you ask for. Plus, he gathered great data up to now.
> @Mike is that something that you might consider doing? Or is it going to mess with the usual process you have in place?


Unfortunately, that would mess up my process.

FWIW, here at my brothers place, with the new version of the app telling me what the car says it uplifted, at 24 amps the car says 52 kWh and the in line meter says 55 kWh…this is at half the amperage rate of my home charging setup.


----------

