# Having a massive argument with Tesla Service



## harrison987 (Jun 30, 2018)

Hi everyone ...

This problem in the attached video I have been having for over 6 months.

What is happening is that 80% of the time after I engage autopilot, there is a flicker of the "put hands on steering wheel" warning. Once it starts, it repeats itself every 60 seconds.

This has nothing to do with the amount of tension I have on the wheel (I have full tension), or my eye line as I'm always looking forward.

They keep telling me that this is normal.

I disagree.

The reason why is because no one I know of who owns a Tesla has experienced this... And none of the techs a Tesla even know why this is happening.

In addition, if this was normal the warning would stay up long enough for me to actually read it. Autopilot does not get disengaged, and they are no other audio warnings that follow.

They're simply concluding that the software is learning my driving habits.

Ummmm.... I've had the car for 4 years and I've been using autopilot every single day. Given the fact that this has been going on for 6 months straight, I'm pretty sure it's got nothing to do with the car learning my driving habits.

I drove with a tech today (third appointment trying to figure out what the problem is) and he saw this exact problem and the exact 60 second interval. He himself had never seen this before and said he would escalate it to a higher level as it seems something much deeper than a simple software issue.

2 hours later I'm told my car is ready to go. Again, they're telling me that this is completely normal.

Can I get some input here because none of this makes sense whatsoever.

TIA

Mike

The issue happens around the 12 second mark


----------



## skygraff (Jun 2, 2017)

If they can reproduce it with the appropriate amount of torque, there’s no way they should consider it normal. Surprised they haven’t examined the physical connections in the steering column because that behavior sounds like something akin to a short.

Seems to me that vibrations are causing the sensor to read no torque which causes the message while something in the code is noting a discrepancy and suppressing it but not enough to stop momentary visibility every 60 seconds (the very specific time is why I suspect code involvement).

Occam’s razor should be in every mechanic’s tool box; especially at EV shops. Instead, it sounds like the old GM style PEBSWAS (Problem Exists Between Steering Wheel And Seat) mentality. Good luck.


----------



## JasonF (Oct 26, 2018)

The newest updates for some reason are less torque sensitive - I've been on short Autopilot drives where it will nag me almost continuously about applying movement to the steering wheel _while my hands are on the wheel and applying pressure against the steering motor_. You basically have to move the wheel enough now to cause the car to swerve slightly. I thought a few times it would shut off Autopilot, but it never did.

I think they did that to try and stop people from hanging weights on the wheel to mask alerts, but they overdid it.


----------



## CoastalLarry (Aug 2, 2021)

" ... going on for 6 months straight."
Is that a clue? Was there an update back in December or so?
Good luck.


----------



## harrison987 (Jun 30, 2018)

JasonF said:


> The newest updates for some reason are less torque sensitive - I've been on short Autopilot drives where it will nag me almost continuously about applying movement to the steering wheel _while my hands are on the wheel and applying pressure against the steering motor_. You basically have to move the wheel enough now to cause the car to swerve slightly. I thought a few times it would shut off Autopilot, but it never did.
> 
> I think they did that to try and stop people from hanging weights on the wheel to mask alerts, but they overdid it.


Hey man...

It seems the difference between my issue and yours is that I do not actually have to apply any further pressure to make it go away. It is on an off so quickly, no driver would actually see it, unless they were looking at the screen itself. If it is an actual warning, due to the sensor being more sensitive...it would stay up long enough for someone to read it, recognize they need to adjust, and then follow with a correction.

That is not happening.

The fact that it is every 60 seconds tells me that this is not the CPU not recognizing my hands on wheel...but rather something else altogether. Plus...I am supposedly the only person in the history of Tesla to have this issue, and none of the techs have seen it before.



Not sure what updates were in January... 


When the manager drove my car.. he said it never happened to him. Because of this, they wanted to give me the car back.

I said no.

I went back to Tesla, drove with the tech...and then the exact thing shown in the video was reproduced.

He said he was going to escalate it and concluded something very similar to what was written above (possibly a connection or short).

But...rather then checking anything physical... They concluded it was normal and gave me the car back 2 hours later...

The manager argued with me, and kept saying that because he was unable to reproduce it, its it's normal behavior.. he would not even except the fact that it was reproduced with his tech 2 hours earlier.

Said they can't really start taking things apart randomly if they don't know where the problem is coming from...so it must be driver issue.


----------



## [email protected] (Mar 19, 2020)

JasonF said:


> The newest updates for some reason are less torque sensitive - I've been on short Autopilot drives where it will nag me almost continuously about applying movement to the steering wheel _while my hands are on the wheel and applying pressure against the steering motor_. You basically have to move the wheel enough now to cause the car to swerve slightly. I thought a few times it would shut off Autopilot, but it never did.
> 
> I think they did that to try and stop people from hanging weights on the wheel to mask alerts, but they overdid it.


i noticed this yesterday. blue warnings even while i am 'assisting' in the turning of the wheel. happened several times. hopefully the warnings are just an experiment in defeating driver's irresponsible weighted steering wheel tactic, and they find a better way. camera?


----------



## garsh (Apr 4, 2016)

@harrison987, if you don't have your hands on the wheel at all, does the message still disappear on its own?


----------



## Kizzy (Jul 25, 2016)

What steering mode do you have engaged. I came across something that now has me of the mind that some of these disparate experiences maybe due to some folks being in comfort and other folks being in standard or sport. Just a theory that I haven’t tested.

I can’t say that I’ve noticed a pattern with this, but also I’m pretty focused on the road. Cue the everybody record an Autopilot drive so we can gather data on this.


----------



## doogle (Sep 3, 2018)

I drive my 2018 M3LR in Standard and have been experiencing this for the last few months. The 2nd stage red alert and chime to "Apply slight turning force to the steering wheel" now almost always comes on immediately when I engage Autopilot, as if I'd had it engaged with my hands off the wheel for long enough to go past the initial blue "Apply force" warning, but this is at the very moment I engage it. I don't think I ever see the "Please keep your hands on the wheel" alert I normally associate with engaging Autopilot anymore, even when it doesn't go immediately to the red alert. It takes more force than it used to to get the message to go away and then it will usually continue to pop up at short intervals, again going straight to the second level of alerting with the red steering wheel and chime without first going to the blue steering wheel silent alert. I haven't timed it but 60 seconds sounds about right. I'm not taking my hands off the wheel and I'm maintaining the slight turning force the same as I have for years. It definitely feels broken. I assumed at first it would be quickly corrected after a software update but I've been through a couple of them since this started happening and it's still broken. I'm disheartened to hear that others are experiencing this and Tesla service is clueless. I'm going to open a ticket anyway and see if I get anywhere with them. Will post back if I learn anything.


----------



## TomT (Apr 1, 2019)

Tesla appears to be attempting to become of the king of poor service! They appear to be winning!


----------



## Klaus-rf (Mar 6, 2019)

TomT said:


> Tesla appears to be attempting to become of the king of poor service! They appear to be winning!


"Bestest winner of poor service" year after year and proud of it.


----------



## doogle (Sep 3, 2018)

doogle said:


> I drive my 2018 M3LR in Standard and have been experiencing this for the last few months. The 2nd stage red alert and chime to "Apply slight turning force to the steering wheel" now almost always comes on immediately when I engage Autopilot, as if I'd had it engaged with my hands off the wheel for long enough to go past the initial blue "Apply force" warning, but this is at the very moment I engage it. I don't think I ever see the "Please keep your hands on the wheel" alert I normally associate with engaging Autopilot anymore, even when it doesn't go immediately to the red alert. It takes more force than it used to to get the message to go away and then it will usually continue to pop up at short intervals, again going straight to the second level of alerting with the red steering wheel and chime without first going to the blue steering wheel silent alert. I haven't timed it but 60 seconds sounds about right. I'm not taking my hands off the wheel and I'm maintaining the slight turning force the same as I have for years. It definitely feels broken. I assumed at first it would be quickly corrected after a software update but I've been through a couple of them since this started happening and it's still broken. I'm disheartened to hear that others are experiencing this and Tesla service is clueless. I'm going to open a ticket anyway and see if I get anywhere with them. Will post back if I learn anything.


Non-scientific update:
Well, it's only one data point, but while I'm waiting for my service appointment I came across this other autopilot related post: "Autosteer disabled for system error" and while it isn't the exact same behavior I was definitely not thinking that having something plugged into the USB ports could be causing my problems. I have a generic Amazon USB hub connecting a charging cable in one port up front and an SSD plugged in to the other one for camera recordings. I unplugged both and rebooted the car before heading home last night and Autopilot performed flawlessly the whole 25-ish mile drive. I engaged and disengaged it several times under different conditions (surface streets, open freeway, freeway traffic) and it never exhibited the problems I was describing above. I plugged the hub and charging cable back in part way through the drive and had no issues. I'm going to have to experiment some more but it seems very possible that my SSD may have been causing the issues.


----------



## Klaus-rf (Mar 6, 2019)

The cause of your issues is the more recent software / firmware / updates. Tesla broke it.

VERY poorly written software AND very poor(if any) regression testing. How did this not show up in pre-release testing - that should have canceled the update?


----------



## doogle (Sep 3, 2018)

Klaus-rf said:


> The cause of your issues is the more recent software / firmware / updates. Tesla broke it.
> 
> VERY poorly written software AND very poor(if any) regression testing. How did this not show up in pre-release testing - that should have canceled the update?


It may be that a software update changed the interaction with my USB drive, which was causing my problems, but if the software is working flawlessly without my peripheral, that's pretty hard to lay at the software engineers' feet. They can't test for every possible USB peripheral that could be plugged in to the car and they shouldn't be responsible for that. Still, the problem that was happening should leave some trace in the system logs and I would expect Tesla to be able to diagnose the problem and say "unplug your USB drive" instead of just shrugging their shoulders and saying it's working as designed.


----------



## Klaus-rf (Mar 6, 2019)

doogle said:


> It may be that a software update changed the interaction with my USB drive, which was causing my problems, but if the software is working flawlessly without my peripheral, that's pretty hard to lay at the software engineers' feet. They can't test for every possible USB peripheral that could be plugged in to the car and they shouldn't be responsible for that. Still, the problem that was happening should leave some trace in the system logs and I would expect Tesla to be able to diagnose the problem and say "unplug your USB drive" instead of just shrugging their shoulders and saying it's working as designed.


Except the SAME USB hardwae has worked for past years - until the update that broke it. Hundreds of people here have had assorted issues - efter the past two or so updates - that worked properly before thata update and the solution is to remove previously working USB hubs, SSDs, USB memory cards, etc.

If the same hardware worked for years before the update and now fails after the update, what is the issue other than the update(s)??


----------



## doogle (Sep 3, 2018)

Closing the loop on my autopilot issue. Tesla service first replaced the windshield wiring harness, which I believe was just a universal service notice and did nothing to fix the problem. Then a mobile tech came out to me and replaced the occupant camera, the interior facing one in the housing above the rear-view mirror, and that fixed the auto-pilot issue. The tech was skeptical, as was I, that that could be the problem, but auto-pilot has been completely solid ever since, going on about two weeks now. It doesn't appear that the problem had anything to do with USB devices/dashcam drives. It seems like the occupant camera was failing in such a way that it was randomly triggering that 3rd level Driver Attention alert.


----------



## Klaus-rf (Mar 6, 2019)

I read somewhere that that internal view camera is only used on late versions of FSD-ß-ß (betaware). So it's failiing a hardware check, intermittently, even though the images are not processed.


----------



## JasonF (Oct 26, 2018)

doogle said:


> It seems like the occupant camera was failing in such a way that it was randomly triggering that 3rd level Driver Attention alert.


Any camera issues can cause Autopilot to crash for a moment, and then it probably goes into full panic mode when it reloads, because it doesn't know it crashed, just that it had zero input for a few seconds.


----------



## Klaus-rf (Mar 6, 2019)

JasonF said:


> Any camera issues can cause Autopilot to crash for a moment, and then it probably goes into full panic mode when it reloads, because it doesn't know it crashed, just that it had zero input for a few seconds.


 That kinda makes it a very poor software design choice. If it's ever gonna go RoboTaxi, it MUST be capable of compensating for hardware failures. Otherwise it's just another drunk driver in a 4000Lb+ vehicle.


----------

