# Sticky  Relocated off-topic conversations



## Michael Russo

Funny how we are all planning on keeping this car forever when most of us have only seen pics... and still not of the spaceship-like interior... !! 
Elon and his folks are truly amazing!!!


----------



## AEDennis

Michael Russo said:


> Funny how we are all planning on keeping this car forever when most of us have only seen pics... and still not of the spaceship-like interior... !!
> Elon and his folks are truly amazing!!!


To be fair... I'm already planning on keeping a few other cars forever too...

Until I can't.

Our last ICE in our hybrid garage is a 2001 BMW X5 that is a low mileage 125k miles... The first 75k were added on in the first four years of ownership... The rest slowed down as gasoline prices increased.

We still have it... ...for sentimental reasons than anything else. Our Model S is around 67k in the first three years of ownership and will surpass the X5's first four year totals.


----------



## Michael Russo

AEDennis said:


> To be fair... I'm already planning on keeping a few other cars forever too...
> 
> Until I can't.
> 
> Our last ICE in our hybrid garage is a 2001 BMW X5 that is a low mileage 125k miles... The first 75k were added on in the first four years of ownership... The rest slowed down as gasoline prices increased.
> 
> We still have it... ...for sentimental reasons than anything else. Our Model S is around 67k in the first three years of ownership and will surpass the X5's first four year totals.


@AEDennis ... How large is your garage...?! If I remember correctly, you also had a T≡SLA Roadster (which definitely sounds like a keeper...!) plus you've got two Model ≡ reserved... Wow... Not that I cannot relate to the sentimental reasons of keeping the X5...  Of course mine has 80k miles on it and is a company car so it will definitely go when I go (I.e. retire end of '17)


----------



## AEDennis

Michael Russo said:


> @AEDennis ... How large is your garage...?! If I remember correctly, you also had a T≡SLA Roadster (which definitely sounds like a keeper...!) plus you've got two Model ≡ reserved... Wow... Not that I cannot relate to the sentimental reasons of keeping the X5...  Of course mine has 80k miles on it and is a company car so it will definitely go when I go (I.e. retire end of '17)


The X5 stays outside. The Roadster and S stay in the garage....

This is a picture of our garage when we still had more ICE vehicles...

IMG_5394 by Dennis Pascual, on Flickr

The X5 was on the street in this shot, and the Model S and Roadster were on their sides of the garage and plugged in.


----------



## Michael Russo

AEDennis said:


> The X5 stays outside. The Roadster and S stay in the garage....
> 
> This is a picture of our garage when we still had more ICE vehicles...
> 
> IMG_5394 by Dennis Pascual, on Flickr
> 
> The X5 was on the street in this shot, and the Model S and Roadster were on their sides of the garage and plugged in.


Oh... Wow... True, I had forgotten the Active E!!  Remind me, is that a true BEV or a hybrid? I think the latter, right? 
If you only could take one, which one of them all would you take on a (large) desert island... with fun roads... and electricity??


----------



## AEDennis

Michael Russo said:


> Oh... Wow... True, I had forgotten the Active E!!  Remind me, is that a true BEV or a hybrid? I think the latter, right?
> If you only could take one, which one of them all would you take on a (large) desert island... with fun roads... and electricity??


We've gone off topic and @TrevP or @MelindaV might want to create a if you had your perfect EV thread...

But, it depends on when you ask me. I wrote a post years ago comparing all three cars.

Having spent more time with the Teslas since then. I would say that each one has its own benefits and it is a hard call. I can tell you that the X5 would be the first "to go."...


----------



## Michael Russo

AEDennis said:


> We've gone off topic and @TrevP or @MelindaV might want to create a if you had your perfect EV thread...
> 
> But, it depends on when you ask me. I wrote a post years ago comparing all three cars.
> 
> Having spent more time with the Teslas since then. I would say that each one has its own benefits and it is a hard call. I can tell you that the X5 would be the first "to go."...


You are right on the 'off topic' point... Sorry...


----------



## RICK M

Hi Mike. Thanks for the kind words. Hope you have a pleasant stay in Houston.
Rick


----------



## Michael Russo

RICK M said:


> Hi Mike. Thanks for the kind words. Hope you have a pleasant stay in Houston.
> Rick


You're welcome, @RICK M ! You know what is really funny?! I was born in Smyrna..., Turkey! 
Take care, Mike
P.S. well done on the delete! You might as well also remove post #76 too...


----------



## RICK M

Thanks, Mike for sharing that ! Where are you on the reservation list ? I put a deposit in on March 31, the date of the unveiling.


----------



## Michael Russo

Well, @RICK M , I am afraid quite a bit in the back row... :-(... I only put my 1000 (Euros in my case... ) on Oct. 10 so there are probably around 400-450k (smarter) people ahead of me...
Yet - for once - my patience to see this beautiful racer finally make it to my driveway is a function to the growing interest and passion for all things T≡SLA!!


----------



## RICK M

Amen, Michael, my brother. If Elon can come through on his goal of 500,000 per year, you may experience the pleasure much sooner. I will keep you in my prayers.


----------



## Michael Russo

I would be thrilled to get it as a 2018 Christmas present!!


----------



## MelindaV

Placeholder thread for miscellaneous rogue off-topic conversations to be relocated here from other threads.


----------



## Michael Russo

Thanks, Melinda, and sorry if we git a little carried away on this one, maybe on the back of our enthusiasm... yet isn't 'rogue' a bit severe...? :-(


----------



## MichelT3

Slightly off topic: With modern cars the difficulty is the ever growing number and ever faster overturn of different parts. Making finding a replacement part ever more difficult. Electric components won't last long as NOS (New Old Stock) either. They deteriorate and are very hard to reproduce. So it may be hard to get a 15 yo camera...

For most classic cars from the 50s and 60s you can still find NOS parts who function well after 50 years laying around. And they are reproduced if the demand is high enough.
It's my firm belief that cars from after 1985/1990 never will become classics on the road. Because they will fade away, which is already happening now. 
This is not a Tesla problem, but a general problem. It could actually be less of a problem with a 'Tesla classic', since there are less parts...
But hey, that will be my (grand)kids problem - or not, not mine. I will get my Model 3 when I'm 60 or so. Hope to drive one till I die. And keep my 1975 Citroën DS Break20 (Wagon) as my classic (as long as I can get fuel for it).


----------



## Michael Russo

MichelT3 said:


> Slightly off topic: With modern cars the difficulty is the ever growing number and ever faster overturn of different parts. Making finding a replacement part ever more difficult. Electric components won't last long as NOS (New Old Stock) either. They deteriorate and are very hard to reproduce. So it may be hard to get a 15 yo camera...
> 
> For most classic cars from the 50s and 60s you can still find NOS parts who function well after 50 years laying around. And they are reproduced if the demand is high enough.
> It's my firm belief that cars from after 1985/1990 never will become classics on the road. Because they will fade away, which is already happening now.
> This is not a Tesla problem, but a general problem. It could actually be less of a problem with a 'Tesla classic', since there are less parts...
> But hey, that will be my (grand)kids problem - or not, not mine. I will get my Model 3 when I'm 60 or so. Hope to drive one till I die. And keep my 1975 Citroën DS Break20 (Wagon) as my classic (as long as I can get fuel for it).


Hahaha, there's that Citroën classic passion coming out ...  Well, let's see how long this 61 year old retiree can keep his Midnight Silver Model ≡ spaceship and make it a 'modern classic'...


----------



## Red Sage

MichelT3 said:


> Slightly off topic: With modern cars the difficulty is the ever growing number and ever faster overturn of different parts. Making finding a replacement part ever more difficult. Electric components won't last long as NOS (New Old Stock) either. They deteriorate and are very hard to reproduce. So it may be hard to get a 15 yo camera...
> 
> For most classic cars from the 50s and 60s you can still find NOS parts who function well after 50 years laying around. And they are reproduced if the demand is high enough.
> It's my firm belief that cars from after 1985/1990 never will become classics on the road. Because they will fade away, which is already happening now.
> This is not a Tesla problem, but a general problem. It could actually be less of a problem with a 'Tesla classic', since there are less parts...
> But hey, that will be my (grand)kids problem - or not, not mine. I will get my Model 3 when I'm 60 or so. Hope to drive one till I die. And keep my 1975 Citroën DS Break20 (Wagon) as my classic (as long as I can get fuel for it).


Hmmm... I sort of think it is the cars just after that, around 1990 through 1995 that won't be classics, really. At least the last years of the 1980s had the Chevrolet El Camino and GMC Caballero before they were canceled. I like the Acura and Honda cars from that time period too. But once the door attached or mouse driven supplemental restraint seat belts became all the rage, it was pretty much over. GM experimented with those horrible ABS systems that were hybridized from drum brakes. The air bag wars started and no one knew where to put the horn _(or find it)_ on a steering wheel. Other than the Acura NSX, Ferrari F355, Ford Probe, Mazda MX-5 Miata, Mazda RX-7 3rd Generation, and Mitsubishi Eclipse GSX/Eagle Talon TSi, most cars from early-to-mid 1990s were rather forgettable.

Still, I get your point. Cars from the 1950s, 1960s, or 1970s when in close to mint or even road condition can pretty much all be _'classics'_ of a sort. Even if they were and still are considered to be grotesquely ugly vehicles. They don't have to be _'cherried-out'_ to be appreciated. Meanwhile, cars from the 1980s or 1990s seem to be largely disposable. People might customize, modify, pimp out, or fix them up, but no one is really interested in seeing them _'restored'_ to their former... _~*ahem*~ 'grace'_ at all. Where the older cars may still have _'character'_ with some dings or dents, the later ones are just trash.


----------



## RICK M

Michael Russo said:


> Totally with you!


Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year to you my friend ! It was 75 today at the Beach !


----------



## Michael Russo

MichelT3 said:


> It's my firm belief that cars from after 1985/1990 never will become classics on the road. Because they will fade away, which is already happening now.
> This is not a Tesla problem, but a general problem. It could actually be less of a problem with a 'Tesla classic', since there are less parts...





Red Sage said:


> Still, I get your point. Cars from the 1950s, 1960s, or 1970s when in close to mint or even road condition can pretty much all be _'classics'_ of a sort. Even if they were and still are considered to be grotesquely ugly vehicles. They don't have to be _'cherried-out'_ to be appreciated. Meanwhile, cars from the 1980s or 1990s seem to be largely disposable./QUOTE]


Good discussion, guys. I think that over time the notion of what car has the potential to become a classic will depend on various factors... Availability of replacement parts clearly is a key enabler, and as you say, @MichelT3 , T≡SLA & other true BEVs, should have an advantage here. The other driver could be how uniquely different (or disruptive...) a particular car has been on and after launch... in this respect, I'd rate Model ≡ as having a great shot at becoming a classic... At least, I for one intent to make Midnight S≡R≡NITY my first classic!! 
@Red Sage ... pretty much all Ferrari's are classic from the point they show up... (my Italian blood is boiling at this point... ). I am afraid I will never be able to afford keeping one as a classic... [/QUOTE]


----------



## Michael Russo

RICK M said:


> Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year to you my friend ! It was 75 today at the Beach !


And the same to you & your loved ones!! :rainbow:


----------



## ricardocabesa

MichaelT3-why would you disagree with my common sense statement?


----------



## MichelT3

ricardocabesa said:


> MichaelT3-why would you disagree with my common sense statement?


Because I don't think packs are awful, @ricardocabesa .


----------



## ricardocabesa

MichelT3 said:


> Because I don't think packs are awful, @ricardocabesa .


Well,I'll help you understand. What if you wanted an option that was only part of a package and you had to pay for the other items you had no need for?


----------



## MichelT3

Bad luck.
How awful, to have to comply to packs... NOT


----------



## ricardocabesa

MichelT3 said:


> Bad luck.
> How awful, to have to comply to packs... NOT


You really are clueless,aren't you? Go ahead and pay for something you don't need or want. Or maybe money means nothing to you. Have another Amstel and go to sleep.


----------



## TrevP

Folks, no snippiness here please. This is not the other forum.


----------



## MichelT3

ricardocabesa said:


> You really are clueless,aren't you? Go ahead and pay for something you don't need or want. Or maybe money means nothing to you. Have another Amstel and go to sleep.


No need to be insulting. 
I completely understand, but have a different opinion about the 'holiness' of individual choice.
Amstel (or Heineken) beer? No thank you. We have much better beers here in The Netherlands.


----------



## ricardocabesa

MichelT3 said:


> No need to be insulting.
> I completely understand, but have a different opinion about the 'holiness' of individual choice.
> Amstel (or Heineken) beer? No thank you. We have much better beers here in The Netherlands.


No one has been insulting. I disagree with your opinion of beers too. I've visited many times.


TrevP said:


> Folks, no snippiness here please. This is not the other forum.


TrevP-re:snippiness,this is an adult forum,not a middle-school forum. I don't need a safe space if someone isn't always polite. But I am grateful for this forum. (hopefully monkey boy won't nuke this reply too-he gets carried away with his authority-again thinking he is monitoring a middle-school forum)


----------



## Michael Russo

TrevP said:


> Folks, no snippiness here please. This is not the other forum.


Agree, and most importantly, _recommend that we once and for all agree to disagree on this topic of packs or bundles. _Clearly there are those here who really don't like them, while others (including me) who can see the advantage as buyers to have this possibility.
No need to test th
Also remember, when packs are included in price lists of carmakers, that no one forces the buyer to go along if she/he prefers to get her options one by one... 
So propose we turn a leaf on this one, see what is available when the Model ≡ Design Studio is available and then everybody decides what's right for them!
It's all good!!


----------



## Gilberto Pe-Curto

One thing is for sure:
Tesla won't implement bundles because we agree or disagree here.
So, let's move on...
Enough bad vibes and bad news for the day...


----------



## Guy Weathersby

ricardocabesa said:


> No one has been insulting.


By my definition of terms, calling someone "clueless" is very much an insult.


----------



## Michael Russo

Guy Weathersby said:


> By my definition of terms, calling someone "clueless" is very much an insult.


Agree, and this is exactly what we should all refrain from... let's funnel our passion & energy for T≡SLA in the most constructive way and, if there is disagreement at times, let's stay cordial and rather 'jokey' about it, shall we?  
We all want the same, our car, well designed and well made, as soon as feasible! Time flies... it will be there soon! :rainbow::rainbow:


----------



## ricardocabesa

Michael Russo said:


> Agree, and most importantly, _recommend that we once and for all agree to disagree on this topic of packs or bundles. _Clearly there are those here who really don't like them, while others (including me) who can see the advantage as buyers to have this possibility.
> No need to test th
> Also remember, when packs are included in price lists of carmakers, that no one forces the buyer to go along if she/he prefers to get her options one by one...
> So propose we turn a leaf on this one, see what is available when the Model ≡ Design Studio is available and then everybody decides what's right for them!
> It's all good!!


I disagree MichR. A particular option may only be included in a package. That was a major point I was trying to make all along. If I am correct,I will be very disappointed. This is a special car for me,possibly more so than other folks.


----------



## Michael Russo

ricardocabesa said:


> I disagree MichR. (...)


That's ok...


----------



## ricardocabesa

Guy Weathersby said:


> By my definition of terms, calling someone "clueless" is very much an insult.


Not if it's true. Safe-room time. And again,this isn't a middle-school forum.
Thanks everyone for the learning experience here and sharing your conjecture and expertise.


----------



## Michael Russo

ricardocabesa said:


> Not if it's true. Safe-room time. And again,this isn't a middle-school forum.


Ricardo, it's a happy go lucky forum...


----------



## Steve C

So I got to thinking today. A buddy of mine invited me over tonight but he lives an hour away. There were reasons I was not able to go, but if I was, I was thinking geeez... it's an hour drive in this **** traffic.

When we get lvl5, I would be able to just jump in and tell it to go there and sit back and do email, talk on the phone, read a book or use my laptop or whatever.

My point is, I think there will be a lot more face to face gatherings just because it's easy and there is no worry of drinking and driving or being too tired to drive home. It would get people out and about. 

Just thinking out loud.


----------



## Badback

Steve C said:


> So I got to thinking today. A buddy of mine invited me over tonight but he lives an hour away. There were reasons I was not able to go, but if I was, I was thinking geeez... it's an hour drive in this **** traffic.
> 
> When we get lvl5, I would be able to just jump in and tell it to go there and sit back and do email, talk on the phone, read a book or use my laptop or whatever.
> 
> My point is, I think there will be a lot more face to face gatherings just because it's easy and there is no worry of drinking and driving or being too tired to drive home. It would get people out and about.
> 
> Just thinking out loud.


Damn, there you go again with the beer. Well, I have waited all week to slack my thirst. Tonight I am going to my favorite watering hole for my traditional 3 bottles of Sam Adams Boston Lager. Followed by a Makers straight up, in a tub of course. My female (human, mostly) companion will be doing the driving. But, I await with great anticipation for that glorious day when Nicky, our ≡, will be kind enough to take us home while I nap in the back seat.


----------



## Red Sage

Topher said:


> I have a dream that they will also make a Zoe competitor at 40 kWh, and less luxurious appointments. More Teslas for more people. The world is currently battery limited, getting more people into EVs is more important than meeting the whims of the rich.



Though I understand this sentiment, I disagree with it. A car like the Renault ZOE is sized about like a Toyota Yaris or Ford Fiesta or even Nissan Versa. None of these are particularly big sellers. At least, not in the U.S. It seems most buyers would prefer to purchase a highly depreciated preowned vehicle, with _MORE 'luxurious appointments'_ than to '_save money'_ by getting one of those _'economy'_ cars as a new purchase.

I think that Tesla looks at certain points when considering target markets: Desirability, Profitability, and Fuel Economy. Affordability may be on their list somewhere, but only relative to the other three points.

It isn't as imperative to replace the most fuel efficient low emissions vehicles on the market as it is to do so with gas guzzlers and gross polluters. Sports cars, sports sedans, SUVs, and pickup trucks consume way too much fuel in their segments. Those need to be replaced as soon as possible.

Loss leader vehicles exist for pretty much the sole purpose of getting someone in the door with a low sticker, so you can upsell them to something else. A Chevrolet dealer will gladly sell you a SONIC to keep you from buying a Fiesta down the street from a Ford dealer, if they must. But there's not much money to be made on the transaction, just bragging rights for units sold, and that keeps regional managers and shareholders happy.

People have to want to buy your cars. Not just the brand name. Not just 'an electric'. That is what will keep them coming back, more and more often. It will also make them choose your NEW products over someone else's used one at the same price point. The sales numbers show what people desire in a _'cheap'_ new car -- they don't. So, the notion that by offering a better drivetrain in a cheap new car will allow more people the opportunity to experience it...? Is, I believe, a false one. People will just keep buying those _'deals'_ on preowned Mercedes-Benz, BMW, Lincoln, or Cadillac SUVs and sports sedans instead.

Naturally, I could be wrong. A 130 HP 150 mile range Tesla for $18,000 might become the high school graduation car of the century. But I strongly suspect it would continue to be outsold by the Model 3.


----------



## Michael Russo

Topher said:


> (...) I have a dream that they will also make a Zoe competitor at 40 kWh, and less luxurious appointments. More Teslas for more people. The world is currently battery limited, (...)


A dream is a dream... no one knows when it can and/or actually materialise...


Red Sage said:


> (...) A car like the Renault ZOE is sized about like a Toyota Yaris or Ford Fiesta or even Nissan Versa. None of these are particularly big sellers. At least, not in the U.S. It seems most buyers would prefer to purchase a highly depreciated preowned vehicle, with _MORE 'luxurious appointments'_ than to '_save money'_ by getting one of those _'economy'_ cars as a new purchase. (...)


I may be wrong too, but I don't think @Topher was necessarily expecting this to happen _short term_... Yet I trust that Elon has got to be mindful that, to really accomplish his goal of transforming of the global automotive industry to an EV-hungry space, carmakers - therefore also T≡SLA - will need to offer _a full range_ of competitive & appealing BEVs, NOT just clean alternatives to Beemers & Merc's. 
You said it well, @Red Sage , small cars are not big sellers _in the US_, yet the A/B segment (as it is called I think) does represent a much larger share of the market in other regions, Europe for one, but evidently also parts of AP. The relative success of the Zoe in Europe is an indication of that, as are typical current locally produced Chinese BEVs.
One could therefore expect that, a few years down the road (3-5?), when T≡SLA has delivered on S ≡ X Y... plus maybe a pickup truck (and possibly a minivan of some sort?), that they will be sufficiently established & financially strong enough to add a few more still attractive yet more affordable smaller cars to their slate... without jeopardising the image of radically novel, technically & aesthetically pleasing vehicles that singles them out. today...
More T≡SLAs for more people, around the world... that sounds like a great dream... _or is it a plan? _


----------



## Red Sage

Michael Russo said:


> A dream is a dream... no one knows when it can and/or actually materialise...
> 
> More T≡SLAs for more people, around the world... that sounds like a great dream... _or is it a plan? _


Sounds like an excellent plan! I liked it a whole lot! Until I checked worldwide Sales figures and found that the tiniest of cars hardly make it into the top 50 at all each year. The current Toyota Corolla and Ford Focus and Hyundai Elantra and Honda Civic all seem to demolish worldwide sales of those really small, incredibly efficient, especially affordable cars -- year in, and year out. And the Tesla Model 3 is comparable to those in physical size, I believe. Hence, the genius in choosing that design and market. Because as Tesla's internal costs go down, the pricing for those cars is certain to go up. At or over a million of the Corolla, Golf, and Focus are sold each year, with maybe 600,000 or so of Civic and Elantra. Smaller cars rarely crest 300,000 worldwide. It's not just the U.S., cheap, small cars really don't sell very well. Enough to make them worthwhile? Sure. But not really an immediate target of interest. I suspect that by the time Tesla has grown to the point such a vehicle could be offered for under $20,000 the Corolla, Civic, Focus, Golf, Elantra, Sentra, and similar cars will have starting prices in excess of $27,000 and will have trim levels that exceed $40,000. There would be no point in undercutting price points that were at _'what the market can bear'_. It would just cut profits unnecessarily. I believe that Model 3 can remain the relative bargain basement entry level car for Tesla for years to come. I mean, look how long it took before Honda released the FIT, or BMW brought out 1-Series and 2-Series cars. I don't even know why the Mercedes-Benz CLA-Class exists. The A-Class isn't offered in the U.S.


----------



## Michael Russo

Red Sage said:


> (...) The current Toyota Corolla and Ford Focus and Hyundai Elantra and Honda Civic all seem to demolish worldwide sales of those really small, incredibly efficient, especially affordable cars -- year in, and year out. And the Tesla Model 3 is comparable to those in physical size, I believe. (...)
> I suspect that by the time Tesla has grown to the point such a vehicle could be offered for under $20,000 the Corolla, Civic, Focus, Golf, Elantra, Sentra, and similar cars will have starting prices in excess of $27,000 and will have trim levels that exceed $40,000. There would be no point in undercutting price points that were at _'what the market can bear'_. It would just cut profits unnecessarily. I believe that Model 3 can remain the relative bargain basement entry level car for Tesla for years to come. (...)


We don't know external dimensions for sure yet I suspect Model ≡ will still be bigger, for sure internal dimensions, i.e. comfort for passengers...

Agree on the need to preserve margins. What we don't know is whether in the long term (ok, maybe 5+ years, T≡SLA can (or will want) to add a car more clearly targeted at the Corolla, Civic, Focus, Golf, Elantra, Sentra... which are not then initial targets as you know... We'll see.
Not sure, if they are as successful as we believe, that they will wait as long as BMW to make the 1-Series, or Daimler for the A/B Class... And remember, dear @Red Sage , this does not have to be for the US market...
Time will tell...


----------



## Steve C

There is one interview where Musk basically says, the Model 3_* is *_the economy vehicle of Tesla. It won't get any cheaper.

I'd have to find it, but it's out there.


----------



## BigBri

Steve C said:


> There is one interview where Musk basically says, the Model 3_* is *_the economy vehicle of Tesla. It won't get any cheaper.
> 
> I'd have to find it, but it's out there.


I'd tend to agree but you never know. I think Elon mostly wanted to show other auto companies EVs could be done and he expected them to jump and start doing it and Tesla would probably make a few luxury Evs and license technology.


----------



## Steve C

It was in an interview _after_ the model 3 reveal. So relatively recently.

At this point I'm sure it's all about margin and there isn't much on anything cheaper.

Perhaps in the long, long term. Who really knows I guess. We all love speculating.


----------



## Red Sage

Steve C said:


> It was in an interview _after_ the model 3 reveal. So relatively recently.
> 
> At this point I'm sure it's all about margin and there isn't much on anything cheaper.
> 
> Perhaps in the long, long term. Who really knows I guess. We all love speculating.


Yes. It was when Elon effectively said that their low cost vehicle solution would be the Tesla Autonomous Fleet.


----------



## Red Sage

Michael Russo said:


> Not sure, if they are as successful as we believe, that they will wait as long as BMW to make the 1-Series, or Daimler for the A/B Class... And remember, dear @Red Sage , this does not have to be for the US market...
> Time will tell...


I thought it might be a good idea -- for other territories... Eventually. I do not believe it is prudent to presume people will not be able to acquire electric vehicles unless they are far less expensive than necessary. I would rather than certain vehicle configurations were not associated with EVs for a while. In particular, the penalty box deathmobile layout that is most often aligned with the notion of a low performance cheaply made vehicle, such as the Tata Nano.


----------



## TrevP

Keep in mind, Tesla seems to be operating much like Apple: leave the low end razor-thin profit margins to competitors and focus on your strengths where design, quality and integrated solutions are valued.


----------



## Michael Russo

Red Sage said:


> (...) I would rather than certain vehicle configurations were not associated with EVs for a while. In particular, the penalty box deathmobile layout that is most often aligned with the notion of a low performance cheaply made vehicle, such as the Tata Nano.


Of course... I certainly don't ever expect T≡SLA to ≡V≡R make a Nano-type vehicle... 
Now, as I said, _at some point down the road_, when they are financially strong enough, and batteries have further dropped in cost, a Corolla-, Focus-, Golf-killer () for $25k? Who knows?


TrevP said:


> Keep in mind, Tesla seems to be operating much like Apple: leave the low end razor-thin profit margins to competitors and focus on your strengths where design, quality and integrated solutions are valued.


Clearly not 'low-end, razor thin', but a Model ≡C, or ≡SE?


----------



## MelindaV

Elon already stated tesla scratched plans for a car priced less than the Model 3, as @Steve C mentioned.


----------



## Mike

Red Sage said:


> I thought it might be a good idea -- for other territories... Eventually. I do not believe it is prudent to presume people will not be able to acquire electric vehicles unless they are far less expensive than necessary. I would rather than certain vehicle configurations were not associated with EVs for a while. In particular, the penalty box deathmobile layout that is most often aligned with the notion of a low performance cheaply made vehicle, such as the Tata Nano.


It's (kind of) like how, back in 2007, the Nokia feature phone was suddenly upended by a more expensive (but far superior) smart phone product.


----------



## garsh

Steve C said:


> There is one interview where Musk basically says, the Model 3_* is *_the economy vehicle of Tesla. It won't get any cheaper.


Yep. From what I remember of that interview, he originally planned on going another level lower than the Model 3. But he doesn't see any way to drastically cut costs further than what they're accomplishing with the 3. So the 3 turns out to be the lower-limit of what's currently obtainable.

If Panasonic/Tesla figures out how to make batteries at half the cost, I'm sure they'll revisit that decision. In the meantime, there's lots of profits to be made on pickups and SUVs.


----------



## Topher

"A car like the Renault ZOE is sized about like a Toyota Yaris or Ford Fiesta or even Nissan Versa."

I didn't say *sized* like a Zoe, just with that battery size and level of appointments. I would expect a Corrola sized car.

If other car makers don't get their act in gear, Tesla will have no choice but to make such a car. It is a huge market segment, and it needs a viable electric car in it.

Thank you kindly.


----------



## Michael Russo

garsh said:


> (...)If Panasonic/Tesla figures out how to make batteries at half the cost, I'm sure they'll revisit that decision. In the meantime, there's lots of profits to be made on pickups and SUVs.





Topher said:


> "(...) I didn't say *sized* like a Zoe, just with that battery size and level of appointments. I would expect a Corolla sized car.
> 
> If other car makers don't get their act in gear, Tesla will have no choice but to make such a car. It is a huge market segment, and it needs a viable electric car in it. (...)


Exactly, I agree with both of these statements. For this to happen, you'd need an 'alignment of stars...' Yet, if costs savings are _achievable_ and a large _unmet_ demand exists... we might see the light...


----------



## Badback

None of the global car makers needs to have Tesla level tech in order to make an economy EV, Renault did it.


----------



## Red Sage

Topher said:


> "A car like the Renault ZOE is sized about like a Toyota Yaris or Ford Fiesta or even Nissan Versa."
> 
> I didn't say *sized* like a Zoe, just with that battery size and level of appointments. I would expect a Corrola sized car.
> 
> If other car makers don't get their act in gear, Tesla will have no choice but to make such a car. It is a huge market segment, and it needs a viable electric car in it.


Once again, the Toyota Corolla has grown quite a bit in its last two generations. It is currently a Midsize car in volumetric dimensions, as I expect the Model ≡ will be. In terms of length and width, those cars will have a similar shadowprint. The Honda Civic is actually *among the larger cars in its class*. And both Civic and Corolla are larger than the AUDI A4 that the Model ≡ is expected to be similar to in overall size.


----------



## Red Sage

Michael Russo said:


> Now, as I said, _at some point down the road_, when they are financially strong enough, and batteries have further dropped in cost, a Corolla-, Focus-, Golf-killer () for $25k? Who knows?
> 
> Clearly not 'low-end, razor thin', but a Model ≡C, or ≡SE?


The Model ≡ _IS_ the Corolla-, Golf-, Focus-killer -- that's my whole point. Remember that lengthy video with a guy on a whiteboard? He explained why ultimately a $35,000 Model ≡ is poised to disrupt the Corolla already.

Typically, ICE vehicles will distance themselves from each other by price point. BMW can go further upscale if they like with 3-Series, in order to hide from Camry, Accord, Altima, Sonata, MALIBU, Optima, and Fusion. But that won't work against Model ≡ at all.

And as Camry, Accord, Altima, Sonata, MALIBU, Optima, and Fusion move upscale, so will Corolla, Civic, Sentra, Elantra, CRUZE, Forte, and Focus. Meanwhile, Yaris, FIT, VERSA, Accent, SONIC, Rio, and Fiesta won't stand pat on their current pricing either.

Ah, but with an electric drivetrain and internal costs dropping all the time, Tesla Model ≡ can stay right where it is and remain an affordable alternative to them all. That's the BEAUTY of it all! You'll know I'm right when the base price for a 2021 Honda Accord or Toyota Camry is no less tha $29,995.


----------



## Michael Russo

[QUOTE="Red Sage, post: 15102, member: 4043"]Once again, the Toyota Corolla has grown quite a bit in its last two generations. (...) The Honda Civic is actually *among the larger cars in its class*. And both Civic and Corolla are larger than the AUDI A4 that the Model ≡ is expected to be similar to in overall size.[/QUOTE]

@Red Sage , your post #102 (gosh, you got to #103 already?! ) puzzled me hence had to Google... 
So, you are correct on both Corolla & Civic having inflated... Did not realize that... However, though they are now _closer_ to the midsize Audi, they're _not quite there yet... :_

Corolla:
Overall height: 57.3 "
Overall Length: 182.6 "
Overall Width: 69.9 "
Civic:
Overall height: 55.7 "
Overall Length: 182.3 "
Overall Width: 70.8 "
Audi A4:
Overall height: 56.2 "
Overall Length: 186.1 "
Overall Width: 72.5 "

As far as we know, though Model ≡ has been set to have '80%' of the Model S dimensions, other quote only a foot of difference (Ryan actually mentioned that too this weekend in episod #77 of RTL), which would place it in between...








QUOTE="Red Sage, post: 15110, member: 4043"]The Model ≡ _IS_ the Corolla-, Golf-, Focus-killer -- that's my whole point. (...)
Ah, but with an electric drivetrain and internal costs dropping all the time, Tesla Model ≡ can stay right where it is and remain an affordable alternative to them all. That's the BEAUTY of it all! You'll know I'm right when the base price for a 2021 Honda Accord or Toyota Camry is no less tha $29,995.[/QUOTE]

@Red Sage, you may be right on your last paragraph... In the end, if continues to be hard for me to think of Model ≡ as T≡SLA's Corolla or Civic when it's been targeted as BEV alternative to a 3-Series...  As this is is not just a matter of dimensions I guess... I must be stuck in the past - not a surprise at my age


----------



## Red Sage

Please follow the link to the EPA's website. By interior volume for Passengers and Luggage, the AUDI A4 is a Compact car. The Honda Civic, Hyundai Elantra, and Toyota Corolla are all larger cars, classified as Midsize instead. Lets not quibble over linear dimensions that are within a relative hair's breadth of each other.

http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/Find.do?action=sbs&id=37302&id=38249&id=37384&id=38153#tab4

Oh, and I've always thought of the BMW 3-Series as being their 'Civic'... Just as the AUDI A4 is basically a Volkswagen Jetta, which is their 'Civic'... Even the Lexus IS and Acura TLX are, as entry-level vehicles within their respective marques, the 'Civic' of those brands.

182.6 ÷ 186.1 = 0.981192907​
Hmmm... Not many people can readily discern a distinctive difference in length between objects that are so close in size. It's less tha a 2% difference, and thus fits my description of similar shadowprint.

105 ft3 ÷ 113 ft3 = 0.9292035398​
The Civic has nearly 8% more interior volume than A4.


----------



## Michael Russo

Red Sage said:


> Please follow the link to the EPA's website. (..)


@Red Sage , you are too strong for me...  Though this still does not _feel_ right to me from a perception perspective, I respectfully rest my case...


----------



## Topher

Red Sage said:


> Once again, the Toyota Corolla has grown quite a bit in its last two generations.


Why are you still going on about size? I already said it had nothing to do with size. Who CARES how big it is?



Red Sage said:


> The Model ≡ _IS_ the Corolla-, Golf-, Focus-killer -- that's my whole point


It isn't your point when you go on about how Audi and BMW are the competition for the Model 3. Please make up your mind.

My point is that a $35,000 car will never be a killer for $20,000 cars. Tesla isn't claiming that. They claim that people who currently buy Corrolas et al will instead NOT OWN A CAR. Which I think is a bit overly optimistic. They better have a plan B in place.

Thank you kindly.


----------



## Topher

TRON said:


> I know the human mankind can invent everything if they want;


This would be proof by completely unrelated induction? Apparently we don't want to cure cancer, or the common cold, or create cold fusion, or FTL travel.

Thank you kindly.


----------



## Gilberto Pe-Curto

@Topher about Cancer: search for "burzynski cancer treatment" or "burzynski movie".


I'm here on the other side of the Atlantic and know the issue, you are much closer should have heard of...
I guess for much better reasons than I, for sure.

Regards and sorry for the off-topic


----------



## Red Sage

Topher said:


> Why are you still going on about size? I already said it had nothing to do with size. Who CARES how big it is?


Those in many countries outside the U.S. repeatedly claim that American cars are simply _'too big'_. It is a very common criticism of the Model S, even though it is a _'smaller'_ car _(in overall length and wheelbase)_ than several other vehicles in its class. Those in countries where vehicles are taxed based upon their size classification say that American cars are _'too big'_. Those in countries with limited urban parking insist that American cars are _'too big'_. Then they don't note that many of the American cars they don't buy are the exact same size as European and Japanese and Korean cars that they DO buy. There are those who really care about the size of cars. There are some who don't. There are others that believe cars should somehow be dimensionally transcendental.



Topher said:


> It isn't your point when you go on about how Audi and BMW are the competition for the Model 3. Please make up your mind.


Yes. And as I noted previously, the entry level _'luxury'_ cars are in my opinion not so far removed from _'regular'_ entry level cars. Brand name and accoutrement seem to be the primary distinctions, with a supposed advantage in Performance for the higher priced cars. But there is a bit of crossover there, as the top-of-the-line Ford Focus will absolutely blow the doors off the bottom-of-the-line 3-Series for about the same dough.

Tesla does not have the manufacturing capacity to directly take on Corolla, Civic, Elantra, CRUZE, Sentra, et al. Just as they do not have the capacity to go head-to-head with Camry, Accord, Sonata, MALIBU, or Altima. The primary designators between those cars have traditionally been size, price point, fuel economy, and in some cases performance. But over time they have all generally morphed into sort of indirect competitors with each other. I was merely commenting on how those factors are all ruled moot by a similarly sized fully electric car that is available at a price point that is within a reasonable difference from the others. Some who would not have gone upscale to an A4 or TLX from a Jetta or Civic may well make the jump to Model ☰.



Topher said:


> My point is that a $35,000 car will never be a killer for $20,000 cars. Tesla isn't claiming that.


I didn't claim it either. I just noted a widely viewed video among those in this community wherein someone else _(Julian ?)_ expanded upon the possibility. I think it is a pretty good theory, despite the quality of presentation:





And, viewed along with one of Tony Seba's demonstrations, it seems to have some validity:







Topher said:


> They claim that people who currently buy Corrolas et al will instead NOT OWN A CAR. Which I think is a bit overly optimistic. They better have a plan B in place.


I think that the likelihood is that they will not BUY a _NEW_ car. Those who need a car tend to buy used by a wide margin instead of new below certain price points. When Hyundai was offering a $6,000 car 30 years ago, there were still people who preferred to buy a $600 used car instead. I can't say I entirely understand the ridesharing phenomenon. But then, I don't really understand the fascination with taxi cabs, trolleys, and subways either. I barely get the logic of public bus systems. It doesn't make sense to plan to offer new cars at a price point where fewer and fewer people are interested in buying a new car.


----------



## TRON

Topher said:


> This would be proof by completely unrelated induction? Apparently we don't want to cure cancer, or the common cold, or create cold fusion, or FTL travel.
> 
> Thank you kindly.


It's just a question of time when the actual problems of the world will be solved, maybe not in our generation but my nephew has the aim to solve cancer, he will start to study soon and let's see what he'll find out. Think positive and you'll see solutions otherwise you won't see


----------



## Topher

Red Sage said:


> I think that the likelihood is that they will not BUY a _NEW_ car. ... When Hyundai was offering a $6,000 car 30 years ago, there were still people who preferred to buy a $600 used car instead.


Yup, I am sure that they just preferred a used car, couldn't have anything to do with not having $6,000. We do know that a lot of people buy $20,000 NEW cars. That is why they sell so many of them. There just isn't enough used car stock to allow all those people to buy luxury used cars instead. Run the numbers yourself and you will see.

Thank you kindly.


----------



## Topher

TRON said:


> It's just a question of time when the actual problems of the world will be solved,


We are creating new problems faster than we are solving old ones.

It is just a question of time until our species is extinct.

Thank you kindly.


----------



## Gilberto Pe-Curto

TRON said:


> It's just a question of time when the actual problems of the world will be solved, maybe not in our generation but my nephew has the aim to solve cancer, he will start to study soon and let's see what he'll find out. Think positive and you'll see solutions otherwise you won't see


Please tell him to 'think outside of the box' of chemotherapy. That 'box' needs to be replaced quickly.


----------



## TRON

Topher said:


> We are creating new problems faster than we are solving old ones.
> 
> It is just a question of time until our species is extinct.
> 
> Thank you kindly.


So your approach is to solve no problem because it doesn't matter? So the logical consequence is that you have no children, right?
No children lead to no future problems following your argumentation logic


----------



## Topher

TRON said:


> So your approach is to solve no problem because it doesn't matter? So the logical consequence is that you have no children, right?
> No children lead to no future problems following your argumentation logic


You need a tin woodsman to go with that strawman?

Thank you kindly.


----------



## Michael Russo

Topher said:


> We are creating new problems faster than we are solving old ones. It is just a question of time until our species is extinct.
> Thank you kindly.





TRON said:


> So your approach is to solve no problem because it doesn't matter? So the logical consequence is that you have no children, right?
> No children lead to no future problems following your argumentation logic


Guys, this is the classical debate between glass half full & glass half empty... Am afraid we won't solve it here... Though I would agree with @Topher that we wake up every day with reasons to be gloomy, I also feel lots of empathy for those, like @TRON (and his nephew) who want to believe and keep fighting for better times...  Will move these posts to Off Topic thread... 
Wishing sunshine to y'all! :sunrise:


----------



## Red Sage

Topher said:


> Yup, I am sure that they just preferred a used car, couldn't have anything to do with not having $6,000.


Sure. There are people that prefer used cars. That is no surprise. Many of those who are Tesla enthusiasts have stated repeatedly that they rarely purchase any new vehicle. Most have been quite frugal in their lifetimes and purchased used whenever possible. They are interested in the Model S, Model X, and Model ☰ because they are truly compelling, different from the norm, and are perceived as being _'worth it'_. That is a good thing.



Topher said:


> We do know that a lot of people buy $20,000 NEW cars. That is why they sell so many of them. There just isn't enough used car stock to allow all those people to buy luxury used cars instead. Run the numbers yourself and you will see.


There is more than _'enough used car stock'_ on the market. I have noted multiple times that a lot MORE people buy used cars/trucks averaging 10 years of age and $18,000 than do those who buy NEW at any price. 38,300,000 used cars sold in 2015 in the U.S., compared to around 17,480,000 new ones. In 2016 it was just over 17,500,000 new cars and I'm certain the numbers for used cars will be much higher.

As recently as Q3 2016 the average sale price for used cars had climbed *over $19,000 per Edmunds*:

_"Consumers in the market for used vehicles from segments with higher price points will not find any relief, as these segments continue to grow in price. On the other hand, lower fuel costs continue to restrict demand (and prices) on high-volume segments such as subcompact, compact and midsize cars."_​
Jessica Caldwell, director of industry analysis at Edmunds, was quoted as saying:

_"We're truly in the midst of a Golden Age for CPO and near-new used cars,"_ she said. _"And with a record number of lease terminations expected in 2016, for the foreseeable future there certainly *will be no shortage of supply* to meet the growing demand for used cars." -- _*38.3 million used-car sales in 2015 | Auto Remarketing*​
While the average prices of used cars that people buy are higher, the residual value of off-lease newer cars is steadily dropping. Here's an early sign that leasing of vehicles may already be proving to be an issue for traditional automobile manufacturers _(as noted in the videos I posted before)_ when it comes to increasing availability of used cars:

_"Ford Motor Credit is now starting to cut back on leasing, relying on it for 18 percent of retail sales in the third quarter, down from 26 percent in the first quarter. The company declined to comment on the impact of weaker used-car values on its business beyond statements made during a Nov. webcast."_ -- *Ford seen as 'canary' with record leases spurring used-car glut | Automotive News*​
You don't have to believe me, but it's true. You can't sell used cars until they have been sold as new first. Tesla is in the new car business. And the low end new car business is rapidly being overtaken by the used car market.


----------



## MichelT3

Red Sage said:


> Many of those who are Tesla enthusiasts have stated repeatedly that they rarely purchase any new vehicle. Most have been quite frugal in their lifetimes and purchased used whenever possible. They are interested in the Model S, Model X, and Model ☰ because they are truly compelling, different from the norm, and are perceived as being _'worth it'_. That is a good thing.


That's me!


----------



## Topher

Red Sage said:


> There are people that prefer used cars.


I am just going to put you down for 'terminal not getting it.'

Thank you kindly.


----------



## Topher

Michael Russo said:


> Though I would agree with @Topher that we wake up every day with reasons to be gloomy,


That wouldn't be 'agreeing with Topher', that would be 'missing Topher's point completely.'

If the knowledge that the species will go extinct, sometime in the future, is cause for you to despair, than you are the pessimist, not I. If you need to blow sunshine up your ..., just to get up in the morning you are dooming yourself to depression. Moreover, that sort of blind optimism is exactly what we don't need right now. There are problems, if we don't acknowledge that, we can't fix them, if we don't fix them they will get worse, until they manage to kill us all. We need to admit those problems exist. We need to not leave it to someone else to fix them. We need to persevere until they are fixed. We need to not make other problems worse when fixing the one we are working on.

Thank you kindly.


----------



## Red Sage

Red Sage said:


> When Hyundai was offering a $6,000 car 30 years ago, *there were still people who preferred to buy a $600 used car instead*.





Topher said:


> Yup, *I am sure that they just preferred a used car*, couldn't have anything to do with not having $6,000.





Red Sage said:


> Sure. *There are people that prefer used cars*. That is no surprise. Many of those who are Tesla enthusiasts have stated repeatedly that they rarely purchase any new vehicle.





Topher said:


> I am just going to put you down for 'terminal not getting it.'


Likewise, it seems.


----------



## Michael Russo

Topher said:


> That wouldn't be 'agreeing with Topher', that would be 'missing Topher's point completely.' (...)


OMG, @Topher , I totally missed it your post #68.  I'm afraid I did not sense that positive, focused determination when reading '_It is just a question of time until our species is extinct_' (which some would agree does not call for optimism...) in response to @TRON 's 'It is just a matter of time until the actual problems of the world will be solved'... 
Having said that, I may have been _equally misunderstood... _I was attempting to kindly moderate the exchange by trying to rally us around _balance_ between looking at problems as a source of concern and the value of those who act to fix them. Note that my agreeing with you there are serious problems did not imply that I view you as a pessimist... Nor that my empathy for the 'fixers' indicates blind optimism... 
So, good clarification ... guess we were saying very similar things after all  Shalom!


----------



## Steve C

Who brought Debby doomsday to this Tesla party?


----------



## Rick59

TrevP said:


> The price reported was just for the cells, not the pack costs included.
> 
> Tesla's Model S battery pack (including cells) is below $190/kWh. Model 3 goal is a *minimum* 30% savings on the cells alone so that should put the pack cost at around $7980 assuming a 60kWh pack. I think Tesla will easily exceed that 30% savings goal before 2018. That means the rest of the car's costs goes into better amenities and materials quality than the Bolt.
> 
> Let's not fool ourselves, Model 3 will be a very nicely appointed car even in base configuration. When Elon says you won't find a better car @ $35,000 you'd better believe it as I really believe they have their costs in check this time around!


Trev, will your wife allow you to communicate with us during the vacation?


----------



## MelindaV

Rick59 said:


> Trev, will your wife allow you to communicate with us during the vacation?


I do believe it's a cuise, so not so much a latter of his wife but just not practical outside of an emergency (which don't think we qualify for  )


----------



## Rick59

MelindaV said:


> I do believe it's a cuise, so not so much a latter of his wife but just not practical outside of an emergency (which don't think we qualify for  )


Sure would suck for him if we saw photos of new prototypes while he was at sea. Would that quality as an emergency?


----------



## TrevP

I had lasik 9 years ago, best thing I ever did. But now my near vision is getting worse (to be expected) so reading glasses it is! My dear wife however has developed a cataract in her left eye at the tender age of 50. Surgery has been scheduled for March. 

Anyhow, back on topic!!


----------



## Michael Russo

If I remember correctly, Trev won't have access to Internet... so the worst thing that can happen is that the winner, in case of a sighting this week, has to wait a few days for the catholding pic!!


----------



## Mark C

Red Sage said:


> Yadda, yadda, yadda... My own eyesight has actually improved since 40. I turn 50 this year. At this rate I may not need my glasses any longer by 60.


You may not if you have cataract surgery.....
Just sayin', with no malice intended.


----------



## ricardocabesa

Red Sage said:


> Yadda, yadda, yadda... My own eyesight has actually improved since 40. I turn 50 this year. At this rate I may not need my glasses any longer by 60.


Wearing glasses since age 10, Last year at 64,my eyes improved enough to change my prescription.


----------



## NV Rick

TrevP said:


> I had lasik 9 years ago, best thing I ever did. But now my near vision is getting worse (to be expected) so reading glasses it is! My dear wife however has developed a cataract in her left eye at the tender age of 50. Surgery has been scheduled for March.
> 
> Anyhow, back on topic!!


Best of luck to your wife. Mine had her right eye done a week ago and restored it to 20/20. She goes for her left eye on March 7.
Not to worry you, but a neighbor had cataract surgery a couple years ago. The operation was botched and he lost all vision in his right eye.
Do as much research on the surgeon as possible beforehand.


----------



## Michael Russo

Red Sage said:


> To my eye, (...) the Mercedes-Benz CLS-Class and Tesla Model S are the current best looking ones I know of, though some other cars are FUGLY _(Panamera)_ of overly dressed _(Quattroporte)_. Most other Sedans are just plain boring at best.


@Red Sage , man, and where is your favorite: THE Giulia... Quadrifoglio Verde ?!


----------



## Steve C

Michael Russo said:


> @Red Sage , man, and where is your favorite: THE Giulia... Quadrifoglio Verde ?!


It really is a beautiful vehicle. I was recently checking it out at the Toronto international car show.

Unfortunately their build quality isn't as good as their looks. I ran my finger from one end of the trunk to the other and ended up pinching my finger at one end while I had lots of room on the other. A real visible difference. (It's not a hobby of mine to do that - I just _had_ to after seeing the gap from afar)

You would think they would bring their best show cars to a car show.


----------



## Red Sage

I love the way the Alfa Romeo Giulia looks from just about every angle..... Until I notice the _*'Hofmeister Kink'*_ detail at the rear doors... A detail that was similarly swiped from BMW for the Jaguar XE. It would be nice if some vehicle designs would be more original.


----------



## Red Sage

Hmmm...

I think of it as a clarification of the parsing of a term. Like the difference between...
_
Alcorn State... University_​
and...

_Alcorn... State University._​
Some might hear it as...
_
Tesla Model... 3_​
When it is meant to be...

_Tesla... Model 3._​
Another way to think of it would be the difference between a woman saying...

_No! Don't! Stop!_​
and...
_
No -- don't stop!_​
Same words, parsed differently, giving different meanings, dependent upon intent, or the listener.

So, yeah... As a kid growing up in Mississippi I was really confused that it was the _'Magnolia State'_, but people kept referring to something called an_ 'Alcorn State' _University. No one there understood what I meant when I asked simply, _"What's an 'Alcorn State'...?"_ I just got blank stares from people who told me that I, _"talktidid funnih"_. A man's got to know his limitations. I can be rather dense at times.


----------



## Guest

EPA range is not pure gold. For example, long distance trips (above 50 miles) are mostly covered at high speeds.
EPA range number on the other hand also counts in city traffic. Bolt might indeed have more range in city as it is lighter and
has bigger battery. But Model 3, being a sleek sedan compared to Bolt, loses less range as the speed goes up (compared to Bolt).

Therefore the raw 215 miles or 238 miles is just a number. Is not actual range, let's say, at 60mph.

Europe/China wants less range than US. As Tesla makes cars for everybody, they can't just do what US wants and ignore others.
For me, 55kWh is more than enough. I don't like the idea to drag a huge pack with me every day. I would rather enjoy SC network
once in a while. I would rather pay for SC expansion than battery upgrade - a capacity I might use once a month.
Whatever the range, it will NEVER BE ENOUGH. Even 600 miles is not enough. I've traveled more per day. Many times.

I feel the mentality of "needing a huge vehicle" transfers over to battery capacity needs. Even though this effect is much smaller
(as EV buyers are more aware of their actual needs on average), there is something.
There are like 100 000 Leafs sold in US that had less than 100 miles of range. And that was enough for those buyers.
Though as there was a massive failure with first gen Leaf batteries, it appears, less than 50 actual miles makes vehicle hard to use
on daily basis. 200 or 300 miles, piece of cake. 400 miles doesn't make any meaningful difference.

















Just count SUV's and guess which one is US. Also number of seats vs occupancy. And truck bed vs usage.


----------



## garsh

arnis said:


> EPA range is not pure gold.


It's a point of comparison. That's all. Not sure what you're trying to say by "not pure gold". It's just a metric used to compare vehicle efficiency/range.


> I feel the mentality of "needing a huge vehicle" transfers over to battery capacity needs.


Not sure why you would think that, or why you believe that it's relevant to this discussion.


> There are like 100 000 Leafs sold in US that had less than 100 miles of range. And that was enough for those buyers.


Well, *this* buyer is making-do with a Leaf, but it turns out that it's *not* enough. Especially now that the battery has degraded to about 60 miles of range. I thought I'd be just fine with it, but now it's actually become a bit hard to deal with on a daily basis.

Before you go saying that range doesn't matter, keep in mind that there aren't many parts of Europe that look like this:








Range is a legitimate concern for many people in the states.


----------



## Michael Russo

arnis said:


> (...) Europe/China wants less range than US. As Tesla makes cars for everybody, they can't just do what US wants and ignore others. (...)
> Whatever the range, it will NEVER BE ENOUGH. Even 600 miles is not enough. I've traveled more per day. Many times. (...)
> (...) 400 miles doesn't make any meaningful difference. (...)


@arnis, you bring in some interesting considerations, yet to some extent contradictory, IMHO. One one hand, you say you'll be happy with 55 kWh, yet then '600 miles is not enough'. 
Yes, distances are longer in the US... yet there are also a lot of people there who don't travel them often and would be perfectly ok with daily commutes remaining well < 200 miles...
For sure, Europe is a much smaller continent, yet many of us over here, including you evidently, and myself, frequently do travel 600 miles or more in one day... 
As long as SC stops to rejuice fully (quoting Bjørn Nyland! ) last 45' or more, 50-100 miles of extra range will matter to _lots_ of people, on _both sides of the Atlantic_, and elsewhere in the world. This even more so in view of all the adverse factors which will affect range (weather, speed, load, etc...).
In conclusion, my humble belief is that, budget permitting, most reservation holders would go for the largest possible battery pack, despite the extra weight, since this precisely what gives that extra 'comfort'... Again, I don't know that geography will be a major factor here, _at equivalent level of buying power._..


----------



## Guest

garsh said:


> Before you go saying that range doesn't matter, keep in mind that there aren't many parts of Europe that look like this:


The fact that there might be nothing for 100 miles on US highway doesn't mean EVs need more range. It only means one must use brains not to get stranded 50 miles from the nearest "anything".
In EU, for example, I traveled from Tallinn to Amsterdam this summer. There are lots of stuff on the road: 3 capitals for example. People don't travel to "the nearest city they arrive to". The travel to wherever they go. The pass all that stuff around the roads.
If people in US travel from state to state, people in EU travel from country to country (as the borders are open it doesn't take a second to cross the border, maybe speed restriction for a mile and an automatic photo just to keep track of vehicles).
In addition to that, a third of that trip was covered at speed no less than 100mph. I hope you know what 100mph means for EVs.
Which makes EPA estimate even less meaningful. It is possible (and legal) to discharge my Leaf from full to dead in 20 minutes, battery is practically new.

I don't like EPA combined range data for EV-s. I would rather just see highway range. Any slower and range increases.
It is very hard to deplete EV battery while traveling in the city. Covering 100 miles at 20mph is extremely frustrating 
Tesla does have a range estimator on the homepage. Select speed and stuff, voila, actual range.

Therefore "Range is a legitimate concern for_ many people in the states_." does apply pretty much worldwide. 
If it would be true, there would be a specific number for range that suits _all people in the states._


----------



## Badback

arnis said:


> EPA range is not pure gold. For example, long distance trips (above 50 miles) are mostly covered at high speeds.
> EPA range number on the other hand also counts in city traffic. Bolt might indeed have more range in city as it is lighter and
> has bigger battery. But Model 3, being a sleek sedan compared to Bolt, loses less range as the speed goes up (compared to Bolt).
> 
> Therefore the raw 215 miles or 238 miles is just a number. Is not actual range, let's say, at 60mph.
> 
> Europe/China wants less range than US. As Tesla makes cars for everybody, they can't just do what US wants and ignore others.
> For me, 55kWh is more than enough. I don't like the idea to drag a huge pack with me every day. I would rather enjoy SC network
> once in a while. I would rather pay for SC expansion than battery upgrade - a capacity I might use once a month.
> Whatever the range, it will NEVER BE ENOUGH. Even 600 miles is not enough. I've traveled more per day. Many times.
> 
> I feel the mentality of "needing a huge vehicle" transfers over to battery capacity needs. Even though this effect is much smaller
> (as EV buyers are more aware of their actual needs on average), there is something.
> There are like 100 000 Leafs sold in US that had less than 100 miles of range. And that was enough for those buyers.
> Though as there was a massive failure with first gen Leaf batteries, it appears, less than 50 actual miles makes vehicle hard to use
> on daily basis. 200 or 300 miles, piece of cake. 400 miles doesn't make any meaningful difference.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Just count SUV's and guess which one is US. Also number of seats vs occupancy. And truck bed vs usage.


Umm, we can tell from the road signs which is which.


----------



## garsh

arnis said:


> The fact that there might be nothing for 100 miles on US highway doesn't mean EVs need more range. It only means one must use brains not to get stranded 50 miles from the nearest "anything".


I'll use my "brains" to buy a vehicle with 300+ mile range. 

I have a 150 mile round-trip that I take to visit family once or twice a year, into the Appalachian mountains, and in the winter. A base Bolt or Model 3 might make it, but that's on the edge of range, and I don't want to deal with the stress of wondering if it will make it. Tesla's range chart isn't "pure gold" either, when you're talking about hills and snow. And no, the family isn't going to want to stop at a supercharging station along the way.

I have another 320-mile round trip potentially coming up (taking kid to Penn State & returning home). I think it's reasonable to stop at a supercharging station once, but there aren't currently any available along any of the routes. I'll probably have to keep an ICE as a second vehicle for this trip.


----------



## Guest

Michael Russo said:


> 50-100 miles of extra range will matter to _lots_ of people, on _both sides of the Atlantic_, and elsewhere in the world.


I would add this. As this is partly an answer:
https://teslaownersonline.com/threads/battery-size-capacity.12/page-11#post-20985

*The thing that needs improvement is not range. It's the charging availability. *Just imagine (even though it is surrealistic) every
fuel station would be a SuperCharger. Would you need more range than 200 miles?

Financial/worthiness calculation is actually simple. Let's make a simplified model. distance units miles or kilometers, doesn't matter.
Random data: Daily commute 67, every month one 234 commute, every year two 678 commutes.
Range 50 - 365+12+2 trips require SC, total time 33,2h, SC network not possible
Range 100 - 365 trips require no SC, 12+2 trips require total 9,2h of SC. SC network extremely expensive
Range 200 - 365 trips require no SC, 12+2 trips require total 4,6h of SC. Tesla's approach
Range 300 - 365+12 trips require no SC, 2 trips require total 2,5h of SC.
trips require no SC, 12+2 trips require total 4,6h of SC
trips require no SC, 12+2 trips require total 4,6h of SC
trips require no SC, 12+2 trips require total 4,6h of SC
Range 600 - 365+12 trips require no SC, 2 trips require total 0,5h of SC.

So the whole "discussion" happens around* 2,1 or 4,1 hours of somebody's life annually* according to random realistic driving scenario, divided into either 2 or 14 *forced coffee breaks.
*
Anyone who has not decided about Model 3 battery pack I strongly recommend undergo those estimations*. *Calculate how many hours, how many extra stops annually. Then multiply with years of leasing. Then divide battery pack upgrade cost with the number of all additional stops during Model3 ownership. Expect something like 30-300$ every supercharging. And then do a decision - do you want to pay 30-300$ for each forced coffee break.

Conclusion: if you don't drink coffee, 600 mile Tesla will not work with you.
Conclusion2: having 30kWh Leaf as the only vehicle is almost as simple (4,6hours of extra charging-waiting time per year) as having 200 mile EV. The only condition is fully matured charging infrastructure.
365+12 trips require no SC, 2 trips require total 2,5h of SC.


----------



## Michael Russo

To the question of relevance of the EPA range, I always understood it to be a more reasonable estimate than most other norms, not the least of which the unreal NEDC often (mis-)used in Europe...

Having said that, can one of you truly smart, educated folk' out there educate this ignorant European (to avoid any ambiguity: me! ) about key elements behind the EPA norm (mix city/highway, average speed, other...)

Sorry... I won't ask Scott Pruitt...


----------



## Michael Russo

@arnis , I agree with you that, the _more dense_ the SC network and the _faster_ you can recharge, the _least important _range becomes.

I am also ok with 300-350 kms of range... because I like coffee... and sparkling water... preferably San Pellegrino or, even better, Vichy Saint Yorre!!


----------



## Guest

garsh said:


> And no, the family isn't going to *want *to stop at a supercharging station along the way.


Oh jezzz.. you know how to make people going. It almost feels like this is the only actual reason the whole continent is desperate for longer range vehicle.

1) Then maybe they want to stop for a free coffee?
2) Maybe they want to buy some airplane tickets?
3) Did you actually ask?
4) Is it some kind of "I must arrive in F-150 or anything bigger, otherwise I'm a loser" mentality?
5) Do you worship them? If so M3 (and BMW M3) will not cut it. Mercedes S-class with cooler and champagne as a minimum.
6) How about you drive at 40mph and not stop at SC? Or they also don't like that? Did you ask?
7) Why you even consider Model 3? Model S 100D has more range.
8) What is their favorite vehicle color?
9) Do they avoid spending time with you in one vehicle/near you?
10) Did you refuel ICE vehicle before you meet them?
If all above is incorrect, please specify why they don't want:
...............................................................................
You see, it's silly in many ways - to buy a vehicle according to 5-10 trips with family during the whole lifetime of the vehicle.
Taking family to vacation in a small BMW 3-series sedan is actually something even Europeans don't do. Touring as a minimum.
Van recommended, Range Rover or X5 - will do the trick.

I think I need to explain to US Model 3 reservation holders, what does it mean to drive 300 miles one way in a small sedan


----------



## garsh

arnis said:


> You see, it's silly


What's silly is somebody who believes they know what's best for everybody else.


----------



## Michael Russo

@arnis , as I tried to tell you earlier, this is not as much of an 'us versus them' discussions, Europeans vs. Americans. Please let's not get parochial here...
The desire for range transcends geographies, age, driver and family sizes...
See my post #41, take a breather, try to smile... and _let it go... _please...

And again, yes, long live better & better Superchargers!!


----------



## Michael Russo

garsh said:


> What's silly is somebody who believes they know what's best for everybody else.











@garsh , I will never thank you enough for this .gif!


----------



## Guest

garsh said:


> What's silly is somebody who believes they know what's best for everybody else.


I didn't say I know what is BEST for every individual. I try to hint that what people think is the best solution for them might not actually be the best. And I try to motivate them to think again (as humans usually stop searching for solutions when they find one). Until either they find a better way or give arguments I can not break.


----------



## Bobby Garrity

arnis said:


> *The thing that needs improvement is not range. It's the charging availability. *Just imagine (even though it is surrealistic) every
> fuel station would be a SuperCharger. Would you need more range than 200 miles?


Of course not. But that's not the situation we're in. Don't forget, even after the Model 3 sells 500,000 units, we will still be among the very early adopters of electric cars. We've come a long way, but have a much, much, longer way to go. The charging infrastructure will inevitably improve, and one day be as prevalent as gas stations. When this day comes, maybe 200 miles will be just fine for most people (but by then batteries will be so cheap that new electric cars will have far longer range, but I digress).

But let's ask ourselves this: What if you had a gas car with a range of 200 miles? Sure, this would by all means be usable, but even with the near instant refueling of gasoline, the short range with be quite a nuisance on long road trips.

I certainly agree with you that improving the charging infrastructure is even more important than improving range (I think all of us do), but we can't make our decisions based on what we want to be true, we have to make our decisions based on what is true today. And today, long distance travel in electric cars is still noticeably less convenient than in gas cars, and better range makes this far less of an issue.


----------



## Guest

Bobby Garrity said:


> But that's not the situation we're in.


I can make a trimmed image of area, that is in that situation. Expanding that situation to you guys is not a "distant future dream".
There are two extremely important things that can change with time: 
Charging will get better and Range will get better.
If range gets better and charging not, problem will not be solved.
If charging gets better and range not, problem will be solved. 
So what should Tesla do first?











Bobby Garrity said:


> What if you had a gas car with a range of 200 miles? Sure, this would by all means be usable, but even with the near instant refueling of gasoline, the short range with be quite a nuisance on long road trips.


Well, longest range 2-wheelers get to 300 miles. Usually, it is less. I've never heard motoguys complaining of having a small tank.
http://www.visordown.com/features/motorcycle-top-10s/top-10-longest-range-bikes



Bobby Garrity said:


> And today, long distance travel in electric cars is still noticeably less convenient than in gas cars, and better range makes this far less of an issue.


Better range doesn't make noticeable difference from one point. Like I gave an example with 300 mile and 600 mile EV on a trip "long enough".

Guys, I'm actually repeating Elon's fundamental "beliefs" with my own words.
Remember_ "I think we will probably stop at 100 kWh on battery size"_. What he actually meant is range for S/X. Tesla is going to stop there for a while in range numbers. If 75kWh on M3 will give the same range as 100kWh S/X, then that's it.
And all I said and what was "disagreed" is what Tesla will do. Tesla will not add range (significantly- dual motor, efficiency, tires etc do change EPA estimate).

One might say: "NO, Elon said 100kWh. It doesn't mean M3 will not have 90kWh"!!!
Really? You still believe M3 will have more range than flagships one day?
Well Elon did tweet about that too luckily, so I'm not a mad scientist:tonguewink:


----------



## Michael Russo

At this point of the discussion on range & charging in this thread, with respect for everyone's individual opinion... this is how I feel...


----------



## Guest

Those "special people" who say they travel like gazillion miles every day were annoying, and still are. 
There has been numerous research done already. Those "special people" should accept the
fact they are special and their requirements are rare. So they should accept that industry will
not design world around them. Rather find a solution to their problem. Like a ramp for wheelchair.
Stairs are better/more efficient in many ways for majority. Therefore stairs it will be.
I would cut the cake at 97.3% of daily distance and all above that should be SC. Why 97,3%?
This means there will be 10 days each year with SuperCharging as a forceful coffee break.
Maybe 15 days for some, maybe 5 days for other. On average, 10 days.
https://cleantechnica.com/2016/08/17/mit-proves-weve-argued-years-range-anxiety-anxiety-illogical/








Yes, I agree, I'm tired of range discussion. Decision was made by our Musketeer. End of the line.

@Michael - you sure have seen a lot of things for your age:smileycat:


----------



## garsh

arnis said:


> Those "special people" who say they travel like gazillion miles


Strawman much?

Hey, I get it. The most you ever drive is 20 miles in a day with 6 people in a compact sedan on roads filled with a gazillion potholes requiring tires with large sidewalls. Anybody who travels larger distances at higher speeds on smoother roads are just annoying. 


> https://cleantechnica.com/2016/08/17/mit-proves-weve-argued-years-range-anxiety-anxiety-illogical/


I bought into this argument 5 years ago when I bought my Leaf. My daily commute is 60 miles round-trip. I figured the Leaf would handle this easily. For everything else, I have a second vehicle. But then you realize that additional things happen to cause you to take a lot of unplanned, forced "coffee breaks". And yes, I've experienced all of these.

Cold weather? Less range
Strong headwind? Less range
Snowfall? Less range
Snow tires? Less range
Summer tires? Less range
Need to stop at the doctor/store/relative's on the way home? Might not have the range.
The kids need you to take them somewhere after school. And pick them up again. No time to charge.
The GFCI outlet tripped while trying to charge the car overnight. Good luck getting to work!
The ChargePoint stations at work are Out Of Order today. Good luck getting back home!
That charger you were planning on stopping at on the way home? Oh, it's not working today. Good luck!
I've "turtled" my Leaf a handful of times over my five years of ownership. I used to think as you did that all of that extra range wasn't really necessary, but I've lived with that decision over the past five years and I've found that I'd rather have the piece-of-mind that comes with plenty of extra battery capacity.
https://teslaownersonline.com/threads/100-kwh-battery-is-it-really-necessary.1806/page-2#post-10403


----------



## Guest

garsh said:


> . My daily commute is 60 miles round-trip


My commute is 74km. And I rarely override 80% charge limit. And due to that sometimes I do fall short due to
a) weather b) need to visit extra random place c) I need to do that commute again few hours after the first one.
But, compared to you, I have reliable DC stations everywhere. And I do visit those stations if I need. Though I don't
go there to charge up my vehicle, rather charge enough to finish my commute. Usually 6-10 minutes is
all that I need. 90% of all DC charges I had are 10 minutes. Maybe even more. And true, sometimes you have to 
do something fast. Like transport somebody to the airport or go to the cinema ASAP (applies to me often).
Usually, falling short means you can not get back. But getting to.. fast.. that's just half the trip. No need to recharge
to get back before you do all those important things. And even then, 10 extra minutes is almost the same as getting
into heavy traffic. It might annoy some but everybody can live with that. Even those BMW 7-series owners 

If I had a commute of 96km minimum, I would have not bought 24kWh Leaf. It is not enough. Range in winter is 100-105km.
This is from 100% down to turtle. Every day having to top up 1-4 minutes at DC is not convenient. 
Though 5 years ago there was nothing to choose from, either Leaf or a golf cart. I understand the situation.
*I do override 80% if it's really cold, something like 0F or -15F as Heat Pump stops working and range drops
below 100km. I expect degradation will force me to use 100% charge within next 4-5 years. 
Yes, Leaf vs Leaf - difference is actually there, even though it looks funny to compare sub 100 mile EV-s.



garsh said:


> Summer tires? Less range


What 
I would believe if cheap winter tires eat considerably more, but no way good summer tires.
Though my winter tires have almost no noticeable effect on range.


----------



## garsh

arnis said:


> I would believe if cheap winter tires eat considerably more, but no way good summer tires.


Oh yes. Compared to the LRR tires that originally came with the Leaf, summer tires result in reduced range. I should have stuck with LRR tires when I bought replacements.


----------



## Guest

garsh said:


> Oh yes. Compared to the LRR tires that originally came with the Leaf, summer tires result in reduced range. I should have stuck with LRR tires when I bought replacements.


Oh, you mean random tires or performance tires. In EU there is no LRR tires any more. All tires have EUROLABEL which specify rolling resistance, noise and wet grip. Ecopias get B-efficiency rating, which is good. But so do around 10-20% of all summer tires on the European market. Some even get A, though it is extremely hard and something must be sacrificed, price or longetivity.

Also ALL tires consume more when new and get better as they wear out. Don't get illusion that new onesare worse just because they have lots of bendy thread.


----------



## Rick59

TrevP said:


> If true that's good news but sound systems are not something that I value particularly. My money is spent on other things.


Wine, women and song.


----------



## WaitingForTesla

Rick59 said:


> Wine, women and song.


Sex, drugs, and rock & roll?


----------



## Badback

Rick59 said:


> Wine, women and song.


Women, beer and pizza. Don't sing with your mouth full.


----------



## Red Sage

Badback said:


> Women, beer and pizza. Don't sing with your mouth full.


Someone once said, _"Anything more than a handful or a mouthful is a waste."_ I disagree. But, you knew that already.


----------



## TrevP

Well that escalated quickly....


----------



## Steve

Red Sage said:


> I love the way the Alfa Romeo Giulia looks from just about every angle..... Until I notice the _*'Hofmeister Kink'*_ detail at the rear doors... A detail that was similarly swiped from BMW for the Jaguar XE. It would be nice if some vehicle designs would be more original.


Whatever you call it, it looks ok to me. They say the best compliment is to copy a design. The Giulia would be my choice of a new ICE car. 
It meets all of my requirements.


----------



## Red Sage

TrevP said:


> Well that escalated quickly....


Hey! I LIKE pizza! Eating some tonight... BiG E's PiZZA is awesome.


----------



## Red Sage

Steve said:


> Whatever you call it, it looks ok to me. They say the best compliment is to copy a design. The Giulia would be my choice of a new ICE car.
> It meets all of my requirements.


Oh, it looks more than _'OK'_... The car is rather stunningly beautiful, I think. It's just that I'm not a BMW fan at all, and seeing that one hint of BMW, when everything else about it so much better, is kind of disappointing for me.


----------



## Bobby Garrity

Red Sage said:


> Luke Skywalker: Well, more wealth than *you* can imagine!
> Han Solo: I don't know, I can *imagine* quite a bit.
> -- _'Star *Trek* Episode IV: A New Hope' (1977)_​


Excuse me, sir?


----------



## Twiglett

Bobby Garrity said:


> Excuse me, sir?


I'm betting that was deliberate


----------



## Bobby Garrity

EV4Life said:


> I'm betting that was deliberate


I hope so.


----------



## Red Sage

Bobby Garrity said:


> Excuse me, sir?


HA! You got me. No. It wasn't deliberate. I'm just really tired. A long day, after a long night. I slip sometimes. I'll correct it. Thanks for pointing that out.


----------



## garsh




----------



## Red Sage

Wait... Hunh? _What?!?_ That sounds more like Lando Calrissian...


----------



## Michael Russo

arnis said:


> just to be ABSOLUTELY sure that everybody on the planet Earth understands:
> Limited Slip Differential - porn for car guys


Totally off topic, but can't resist... we have the same joke at work about a Sales training called 'Leveraging Selling Disciplines'..!!


----------



## Twiglett

Red Sage said:


> Hmmm...
> 
> I think of it as a clarification of the parsing of a term. Like the difference between...
> _
> Alcorn State... University_​
> and...
> 
> _Alcorn... State University._​
> Some might hear it as...
> _
> Tesla Model... 3_​
> When it is meant to be...
> 
> _Tesla... Model 3._​
> Another way to think of it would be the difference between a woman saying...
> 
> _No! Don't! Stop!_​
> and...
> _
> No -- don't stop!_​
> Same words, parsed differently, giving different meanings, dependent upon intent, or the listener.
> 
> So, yeah... As a kid growing up in Mississippi I was really confused that it was the _'Magnolia State'_, but people kept referring to something called an_ 'Alcorn State' _University. No one there understood what I meant when I asked simply, _"What's an 'Alcorn State'...?"_ I just got blank stares from people who told me that I, _"talktidid funnih"_. A man's got to know his limitations. I can be rather dense at times.


This book should be required reading, not just for the entertainment but because correct punctuation leads to better (or accurate) understanding.


----------



## Red Sage

EV4Life said:


> This book should be required reading, not just for the entertainment but because correct punctuation leads to better (or accurate) understanding.


Yesterday, I was telling my Mom about how for several years when ordering in restaurants, I felt compelled to ask, _"What's a Super Salad?"_ See, I apparently think of language in a completely different manner than most people do. Very often, I will alphabetize things, that others will not. Such as, when I give someone a choice between two things. I don't know why, but it seems other people will make lists based upon the number of characters or syllables in words instead. So now I have to catch myself before asking my question, and remember to ask another instead... _"What is the soup of the day?"_ Why? Because waitresses across the land always catch me off guard by asking in shorthand, _"Soup or salad?"_ I have no idea why they don't ask, _"Would you like salad or soup with your meal today?"_ That, I could understand easily. Oh, well... A man's got to know his limitations...


----------



## Badback

Red Sage said:


> Yesterday, I was telling my Mom about how for several years when ordering in restaurants, I felt compelled to ask, _"What's a Super Salad?"_ See, I apparently think of language in a completely different manner than most people do. Very often, I will alphabetize things, that others will not. Such as, when I give someone a choice between two things. I don't know why, but it seems other people will make lists based upon the number of characters or syllables in words instead. So now I have to catch myself before asking my question, and remember to ask another instead... _"What is the soup of the day?"_ Why? Because waitresses across the land always catch me off guard by asking in shorthand, _"Soup or salad?"_ I have no idea why they don't ask, _"Would you like salad or soup with your meal today?"_ That, I could understand easily. Oh, well... A man's got to know his limitations...


Why do wait people (note the pc phrase) insist on telling vegetarians about the catch of the day, as if fish was a vegetable.


----------



## garsh

Badback said:


> Why do wait people (note the pc phrase) insist on telling vegetarians about the catch of the day, as if fish was a vegetable.


----------



## Badback

garsh said:


>


Exactly!


----------



## plankeye

Dan Detweiler said:


> As with all things automotive, each to his own, but I just don't get the concern with fender gap. If people feel the need to adjust that there are many ways that can be done simply by the owner. I just don't see it as a concern. Just my opinion of course and I am just an old fogie that finds the little rice burners with their wheels tilted in 40 degrees so they can achieve some ridiculous level of "gap" or ride level to be repulsive. If it's your bag...go for it. I'll take this car just the way it sits (in blue or course)
> 
> Dan


The people dropping their cars without adjusting the camber are just idiots.

As far as the gap goes, to me it's just an optical "illusion" if you will. If the wheel well gap is as large or larger than the tire profile, then the vehicle tends to look "4WD." This is especially true in the rear, where the wheels won't be turning, thus don't need a ton of clearance for any reason. Besides, the wheel well is generally very dirty and not very appealing to look at, so why make it so obvious?

Also, I would think that a smaller gap would help with aerodynamics. Obviously if you go all the way to skirts, that's true, so I presume it's true if you only go part-way and get the opening of the wheel well even with the top of the tire.

Most BMW's have great wheel well gaps. I know there are other brands that do a great job of it also.

I used to love Hondas, but this was one of the things that always bugged me about their cars, and they never really got any better at it. Plus, their cars have just gotten weirder and weirder and uglier and uglier over time.


----------



## Dan Detweiler

plankeye said:


> The people dropping their cars without adjusting the camber are just idiots.
> 
> As far as the gap goes, to me it's just an optical "illusion" if you will. If the wheel well gap is as large or larger than the tire profile, then the vehicle tends to look "4WD." This is especially true in the rear, where the wheels won't be turning, thus don't need a ton of clearance for any reason. Besides, the wheel well is generally very dirty and not very appealing to look at, so why make it so obvious?
> 
> Also, I would think that a smaller gap would help with aerodynamics. Obviously if you go all the way to skirts, that's true, so I presume it's true if you only go part-way and get the opening of the wheel well even with the top of the tire.
> 
> Most BMW's have great wheel well gaps. I know there are other brands that do a great job of it also.
> 
> I used to love Hondas, but this was one of the things that always bugged me about their cars, and they never really got any better at it. Plus, their cars have just gotten weirder and weirder and uglier and uglier over time.


Perhaps there were more Honda buyers that liked the gaps than didn't like it? I just don't think (and I could very well be wrong) that there are that many people to which this is a big concern. I know it is to you and that's certainly fine.

Dan


----------



## puppy7505

plankeye said:


> I used to love Hondas, but this was one of the things that always bugged me about their cars, and they never really got any better at it. Plus, their cars have just gotten weirder and weirder and uglier and uglier over time.


I had 5 Honda/Acuras in a row. Each one of them an excellent car!!! But the styling has just gotten really odd, so my last two cars have been from other Japanese manufacturers.


----------



## samson

I dont understand, the fender gap will only make the ride comfortable so whats the trade off other than looks?


----------



## SoFlaModel3

I am by no means planning to "dump" my car but a fender gap that large should be reserved for an SUV. 

I really don't want to have to buy a different suspension and go aftermarket but that wheel gap is beyond horrible. 

Any half way decent sports sedan has a tighter wheel gap without having the car driving on the floor. 

If this is final and that's it, I will be greatly disappointed.


----------



## SoFlaModel3

samson said:


> I dont understand, the fender gap will only make the ride comfortable so whats the trade off other than looks?


That's not true at all.

It's the suspension and tires, not the actual gap.

One could suggest a softer setup being associated with a larger gap but it's not a given.

This is just flat out ugly.


----------



## plankeye

SoFlaModel3 said:


> I am by no means planning to "dump" my car but a fender gap that large should be reserved for an SUV.
> 
> I really don't want to have to buy a different suspension and go aftermarket but that wheel gap is beyond horrible.
> 
> Any half way decent sports sedan has a tighter wheel gap without having the car driving on the floor.
> 
> If this is final and that's it, I will be greatly disappointed.


At least I'm not alone!


----------



## Twiglett

plankeye said:


> At least I'm not alone!


Does that mean we'll see the first Model 3 "donk"


----------



## SoFlaModel3

EV4Life said:


> Does that mean we'll see the first Model 3 "donk"


Of course and equally as inevitable that someone dumps the car and has the worst negative camber you've ever seen. That will be great for tire wear on such a heavy car!


----------



## plankeye

EV4Life said:


> Does that mean we'll see the first Model 3 "donk"


Personally, I'm just going to live with it the way it is. It's not going to kill me the way it is, I'd just prefer it to have a smaller gap. I don't want the car lower. I would just scrape more curbs when parking.


----------



## Michael Russo

plankeye said:


> (...)I used to love Hondas, but (...) their cars have just gotten weirder and weirder and uglier and uglier over time.


Couldn't have said it any better


----------



## garsh

Nope, didn't get any better the second time.


----------



## Michael Russo

garsh said:


> Nope, didn't get any better the second time.


Lol! Sometimes I think I my post doesn't go through and my thumb is too itchy... Had not noticed the double post... thanks to drawing my attention to it, @garsh ! Deleted 2nd one!


----------



## Jan

I think I would prefer metal roof with solar cells. My Leaf has a very small solar cell on the roof, but that is only for topping the 12 V lead battery. If the entire roof and eventually also the hood were covered with solar cells it would amount to something.


----------



## AZ Desert Driver

Jan said:


> I think I would prefer metal roof with solar cells. My Leaf has a very small solar cell on the roof, but that is only for topping the 12 V lead battery. If the entire roof and eventually also the hood were covered with solar cells it would amount to something.


Yes, a few square feet of solar collectors would be "something". The energy collected would be so small as to be lost in the noise level. Its a nice idea, but the physics just can't support the tradeoff of weight, size,efficiency, storage, install wiring weight and labor.


----------



## Guest

Jan said:


> I think I would prefer metal roof with solar cells. My Leaf has a very small solar cell on the roof, but that is only for topping the 12 V lead battery. If the entire roof and eventually also the hood were covered with solar cells it would amount to something.


Solar cells would bring back partially all inefficiency that is generated by themselves. 
Mostly extra weight due to panels themselves and wires. And also converter.
If done cheaply, even aerodynamics will suffer.


----------



## Jan

AZ Desert Driver said:


> Yes, a few square feet of solar collectors would be "something". The energy collected would be so small as to be lost in the noise level. Its a nice idea, but the physics just can't support the tradeoff of weight, size,efficiency, storage, install wiring weight and labor.


May be you are right, but I am not entirely convinced.

I think you can squeeze in about two square meters if you use both roof and hood. That should give between one and two KWh for a whole sunny day. Not very much, but still enough to drive a few kilometers.


----------



## MelindaV

Jan said:


> May be you are right, but I am not entirely convinced.
> 
> I think you can squeeze in about two square meters if you use both roof and hood. That should give between one and two KWh for a whole sunny day. Not very much, but still enough to drive a few kilometers.


i think you mean 2Wh, not 2kWh.


----------



## Topher

Jan said:


> I think you can squeeze in about two square meters if you use both roof and hood. That should give between one and two KWh for a whole sunny day. Not very much, but still enough to drive a few kilometers.


And at a projected cost of $1,500 How much are you paying for those kWh?

We have been over this many times here. Put the panels on the roof of your house, not your car.



MelindaV said:


> i think you mean 2Wh, not 2kWh.


No, 2 kWh is about right.

Thank you kindly.


----------



## MichelT3

2 kWh = € 0,44 for me in The Netherlands. Is US states often half that; negligible
2 kWh = 2,66 % of a 75 kWh battery; negligible also.


----------



## Guest

Jan said:


> I think you can squeeze in about two square meters if you use both roof and hood. That should give between one and two KWh for a whole sunny day. Not very much, but still enough to drive a few kilometers.


One latest 1m*1,5m panel gives 300W in ideal conditions. 2m2 is 400W in ideal conditions. Which will NEVER occur on a vehicle.
Because panels are mostly horizontal and they do not track the Sun. 2kWh is very optimistic. 1,5kWh is the top edge (25% loss due to wrong angle), few months per year. The rest of the year Sun is closer to horizon. Less than 1kWh per sunny day expected due to roof/hood looking up.

All this tech onboard will reduce vehicle efficiency. Hard to estimate but it is not zero.

Nissan Leaf's solution makes more sense though is still marginally useful. Small panel only keeps the 12V system trickle charging. Due to that HV battery has to discharge less if vehicle kept stationary for days. This tech requires almost nothing. All included less than 400gr possibly.
It might make sense to make that 12V solar array bigger, maybe 50W*. So 12V battery will never die. Even if HV battery is dead.
And if vehicle is parked underground and discharged with a help of a light source it would be technically possible to recharge 12V battery to close the contactor, release parking brake, open central lock.

EV's have often more parasitic losses due to telematics. Checking Tesla with an app for example.
Cabin overheat protection on a sunny day could be ran solely on solar.

* idea is to keep the whole thing with almost no weight. There are panels that are "foil" thick. Tapping 12V system can be done anywhere and no bulky controller required.
Ideally sunroof "tinting" could theoretically be half-transparent solar foil. That would be win-win situation.
And that could be extended to all tinted windows. Will not mess up a nice-looking Tesla with any body color.


----------



## Dan Detweiler

I am not a moderator, but if it were up to me I would limit all the stock speculation to threads reserved for that purpose. There are plenty of other places you share in the market rollercoaster with other like minded people.

Just my 2 cents.

Dan


----------



## SoFlaModel3

Dan Detweiler said:


> I am not a moderator, but if it were up to me I would limit all the stock speculation to threads reserved for that purpose. There are plenty of other places you share in the market rollercoaster with other like minded people.
> 
> Just my 2 cents.
> 
> Dan


Dan are you referring to my post or that of @Tesla007 ? My guess is that Tesla007 was taking that post for the content suggesting less cars being delivered than we would all hope and obviously my reply suggests I feel otherwise. I don't think the purpose here was to post about stock speculation.


----------



## Dan Detweiler

SoFlaModel3 said:


> Dan are you referring to my post or that of @Tesla007 ? My guess is that Tesla007 was taking that post for the content suggesting less cars being delivered than we would all hope and obviously my reply suggests I feel otherwise. I don't think the purpose here was to post about stock speculation.


If so then I apologize. My bad. I view this article as yet another stock speculator shorting Tesla and using misinformation to justify it. This kind of crap infuriates me, but then I am not a stock speculator.

Dan


----------



## SoFlaModel3

Dan Detweiler said:


> If so then I apologize. My bad. I view this article as yet another stock speculator shorting Tesla and using misinformation to justify it. This kind of crap infuriates me, but then I am not a stock speculator.
> 
> Dan


No worries and I agree. P.S. I am long on Tesla, but that has no bearing on what I say ... it's all about wanting my car asap


----------



## MelindaV

Dan Detweiler said:


> I am not a moderator, but if it were up to me I would limit all the stock speculation to threads reserved for that purpose. There are plenty of other places you share in the market rollercoaster with other like minded people.
> 
> Just my 2 cents.
> 
> Dan


"On time" thread cleaned up with the latest posts moved to either the stock analyst thread or here. You can always click the report button on a post to bring it to the attention of a moderator if you feel it needs attention.


----------



## Dan Detweiler

MelindaV said:


> "On time" thread cleaned up with the letest posts moved to either the stock analyst thread or here. You can always click the report button on a post to bring it to the attention of a moderator if you feel it needs attention.


Thanks Melinda.

Dan


----------



## Badback

If stock shorters think that this forum is a place where they can manipulate opinions about Tesla, they are badly mistaken.


----------



## samson

Do you guys feel that Tesla is pushing themselves to the edge trying to meet the M3 deadline. 

I just hope they don't cut corners ( Like Samsung) trying to get to the finish line faster.


----------



## garsh

samson said:


> Do you guys feel that Tesla is pushing themselves to the edge trying to meet the M3 deadline.


Yes, they are. They know they can't have another 3-year delay like they did for the Model X. This is the first vehicle where they've concentrated on the manufacturing more than the design, so I expect them to come very close to meeting their deadline goals.


> I just hope they don't cut corners ( Like Samsung) trying to get to the finish line faster.


They already have - there aren't going to be any "spaceship controls" on the Model 3. There won't be any dual-motor models until next year. But if quality ends up suffering (and just about any initial production run of *any* car has issues), then Tesla's track record of fixing things under warranty eases my mind about getting one of the initial vehicles.


----------



## Badback

MelindaV said:


> i think you mean 2Wh, not 2kWh.


A typical solar panel that is approximately the size of the M3 roof:

https://www.solarelectricsupply.com/solarworld-sunmodule-sw-345-xl-mono-wholesale-solar-panel

will provide ~345W from full sunlight.


----------



## MelindaV

Badback said:


> A typical solar panel that is approximately the size of the M3 roof:
> 
> https://www.solarelectricsupply.com/solarworld-sunmodule-sw-345-xl-mono-wholesale-solar-panel
> 
> will provide ~345W from full sunlight.


So you would need 6x that area, with ideal angle and in full sun to get 2kWh. Guess that was my point (however off my division was) that there isn't enough area on the vehicle to get 2kWh, am I missing something?


----------



## Badback

MelindaV said:


> So you would need 6x that area, with ideal angle and in full sun to get 2kWh. Guess that was my point (however off my division was) that there isn't enough area on the vehicle to get 2kWh, am I missing something?


No, you are not missing anything. The power potential of the roof is quite limited. Even if panel efficiency doubles from the Sunworld example, the power would only be 750W. Note that I did not say 750Wh, solar panels do not store power.

But it would be enough to run a fan and perhaps a small heater or an AC compressor. As I have always stated, the really practical use of a of a roof panel is climate control, not battery charging.


----------



## MelindaV

so how are others saying it will be capable of 2kw?


----------



## Badback

MelindaV said:


> so how are others saying it will be capable of 2kw?


They are smoking some really good stuff, and not sharing.

It is a simple engineering exercise. Find a solar panel of similar size and typical efficiency and look at its specs. Putting a solar array on top of a car does not give it magical powers to violate the laws of physics.


----------



## Topher

MelindaV said:


> So you would need 6x that area, with ideal angle and in full sun to get 2kWh.





MelindaV said:


> so how are others saying it will be capable of 2kw?


You are conflating kWh (energy) and kW (power). The 2 kWh I was talking about is for a FULL DAY in the sun (many hours). 500W (that is, Peak Watts) of solar cells, times 4.0 Sun-hours (per day) of insolation is 2 kWh of energy.

Thank you kindly.


----------



## Rick59

Dan Detweiler said:


> Getting back to the original post, I look at glass roof benefits this way. Assuming Tesla has worked through the previously stated drawbacks (glare, heat, strength, etc.) and these are no longer a concern...who wouldn't prefer the open feeling of a glass roof compared to the cavern like environment of a metal roof?
> 
> Have they worked through these concerns? Only time will tell.
> 
> Dan


Dan, you're a wild and adventurous man trying to get the thread back on topic.


----------



## Dan Detweiler

Rick59 said:


> Dan, you're a wild and adventurous man trying to get the thread back on topic.


I try. Not usually successful but I try! 

Dan


----------



## Mark C

teslaliving said:


> I hope so. That pic was of me on my way to FL to escape the MA winter and get some rides in. Would love to do the same thing in the 3 this coming winter with Autopilot. Was a long drive (for me) down to FL and a lot of chargers


If you have a condo in FL to escape brutal MA winters, maybe you could just own two bicycles and not need to transport your bicycle in the back of your car.


----------



## teslaliving

Mark C said:


> If you have a condo in FL to escape brutal MA winters, maybe you could just own two bicycles and not need to transport your bicycle in the back of your car.


It's not my place, can't leave stuff there. But I get your point. I could rent a bike or something. Not the same as a fun (and free thanks to the free SCs) EV road trip down the east coast stopping for scenic bike rides in interesting places along the way.


----------



## Uricasha

I'm calling 999


----------



## Uricasha

And 1,000


----------



## Steven

Red Sage said:


> Well, yes... and no. It depends upon your intent.


Sure, it depends on a lot of things. And I was being overly simplistic. But we're not comparing a Model 3 with a theoretical race car. Logically speaking, the Model 3 is going to under perform the Model S at any given battery pack. Model S undoubtedly has superior motors, controllers... hell, we know they had to reinvent the fuse just to allow for physics! That's not going to exist in the lower priced car, in my crystal ball anyway. The newer cells for the Model 3 are not chemically revolutionary. They'll have more or less the same electrical properties. The [dis]charge rate to capacity ratio holds true so *at best* we'll see similar performances for similar sized packs.



Red Sage said:


> _'Reservist'_ is a proper word, I think that is actually what is used to describe those in military service who are part of the Reserves.


That was actually my point there. I wasn't asking if it was a word, but if it was an appropriate one. I don't know if it can be used in the context I did (ie. one who holds a reservation). I was (slightly) worried I would offend real reservists (those serving in the reserves - be it military, police, etc)



Red Sage said:


> I dispute each of those points.


Any reasonable person would.



Red Sage said:


> the interior of the Model S is _'not up to snuff'_ that it is substandard


I totally get your point but I wanted to comment on this specifically. "they" are correct. The interior of the S is nowhere near "luxury", and that's why I've always been bothered that it is pigeon-holed into the "ultra luxury" category solely based on its price. The price is due to the revolutionary technology shift. The low volume. The ground breaking regime change in the automotive machine. There is hardly anything "luxury" about it... yet I feel it is worth every dime. People (and media, and even Tesla themselves) insist on comparing it to this Benz or that Beemer or whatever. It compares to nothing. It is the Model S (X). One either gets that or they don't. If they don't, there's no sense comparing it to something else, especially not in the amount of Corinthian leather it may or may not have.

But yeah, the plastics and fit and finish it has? Not a whole lot better than any car I've ever owned (Hondas, Suzukis, Mazdas... everyman cars) and far less than the one "luxury" vehicle I owned (stupid 2003 Caddie I'm ashamed to admit to. ****ing 15Mpg... yeesh, what was I thinking). And it matters not one little bit. Or shouldn't, anyway.



Red Sage said:


> I point to the BMW 3-Series.


And so does everyone else, Musk included. It drives me nuts. For the same reasoning I gave above, I see no reason to compare the Model 3 to any ICE. The fact it isn't an ICE puts it far above, regardless of its 0-60 time, luxury appointments, etc. Compare it to the REAL cars in its class - the Leaf, the Bolt, the 100 different models to come in the near future THANKS TO TESLA.



Jean Théoret said:


> Is the 75KWh have been confirmed for the M3? As it is offered in the MS config, I thought that the 70KWh would have been offer to the M3 to make sure that the M3 is not better than the MS.


I'm sorry, but I am so tired of this "not better than MS" rule that people think Tesla has to adhere to. At one point at the start of this "anti-sell" thing he made some tweet that vaguely referenced relative performance... and everyone suddenly reads that as each and every thing about the 3 must be worse than that of the S. That no new tech must be introduced. That's not at all what he said. On the whole - just as it should for a car costing < half - the 3 will be slower, less range, and less tech. But that doesn't mean each and every thing must be <=. Specific to batteries, the Model 3 has an entirely different cell/pack configuration. By the time they are delivered, who knows what the pack sizes will be. And they're nominal anyway. The 75KWh pack on the S is not actually 75KWh... it just sounds nice and is reasonably close. It is quite possible that the S has 75.2KWh and the 3 has 77.8KWh and that's perfectly fine.

And yes, the Model 3 could have a HUD even though the S doesn't  The S would still be a superior car with better tech on the whole. [/rant]


----------



## Red Sage

Jean Théoret said:


> And you forgot the '' L '' why not?


We use the _'L'_ to denote _'LUDICROUS'_ on websites that do not allow us to designate the option as Tesla does in the badging on the cars -- using an *UNDERLINE*. 

So...

*P135DL* -- _at the Tesla forums and InsideEVs, because the HTML for an underline isn't allowed any longer._
*P135D* -- at DiSQUS, TMC, Teslarati, and _here because it can be done._​
Get it? Or, would you prefer I make the letter _'P'_ *RED* as well?


----------



## Red Sage

BigBri said:


> The antiselling is annoying but don't let it take the wind out of our sales. Most of us want to buy an attractive EV that comes with all the benefits of driving an EV and it'll even come with some more. Still Tesla is a company and they do need to make money to get the Model3 on the road to start with. Part of that is getting the folks with big wallets to plunk down for the luxury sedan rather then waiting for its smaller brother. Most of the things on the list that make the S 'better' are things that are pretty easy to live without. 0-60 in 2 something seconds may be fun but outside of a race track its just a very very expensive feature/toy.


Heh. Well, that should probably be _'sails'_... But it still works fine for this discussion anyway. We'll pretend you did that on purpose! A proper pun! Well said!  :hearteyes::sunglasses::yum::smirk:


----------



## Steven

Red Sage said:


> using an *UNDERLINE*.


Wait... on the actual car, if it has Ludicrous the badging is underlined? I never noticed that.

[edit] Looked it up. Yup, that's exactly the case. I've never been a fan of badging at all, so I guess I didn't pay that much attention. Cute though.


----------



## Red Sage

*It Don't Burn No Gas!
*


Steven said:


> Sure, it depends on a lot of things. And I was being overly simplistic. But we're not comparing a Model 3 with a theoretical race car. Logically speaking, the Model 3 is going to under perform the Model S at any given battery pack. Model S undoubtedly has superior motors, controllers... hell, we know they had to reinvent the fuse just to allow for physics! That's not going to exist in the lower priced car, in my crystal ball anyway. The newer cells for the Model 3 are not chemically revolutionary. They'll have more or less the same electrical properties. The [dis]charge rate to capacity ratio holds true so *at best* we'll see similar performances for similar sized packs.


Elon Musk has already announced via Twitter that, _"Of course,"_ there will be a LUDICROUS Mode for Model ☰. That means that the Inconel contactor will be an available option for the car's battery pack in some configuration. I expect that will mean that in Performance trim, at least one mode of the car will reach _'INSANE'_ levels of acceleration at 3.2 seconds to 60 MPH, and that another will reach _'LUDICROUS'_ levels at 2.7 seconds 0-60 MPH. That is enough to thoroughly embarrass the currently reigning ICE vehicle in the market segment, the Alfa Romeo Giulia Quadrifoglio at 3.7 seconds 0-60 MPH -- without somehow _'embarrassing'_ the Model S _(though it could, if they wanted it to)_.

The aspect of Performance that matters to most buyers will be Range. I expect that for a given battery pack capacity, the Model ☰ will have a greater Range than the Model S. At 60 kWh battery pack capacity that might be 225-to-250 miles, where on the Model S it was only 208 to 218 miles with rear wheel drive. At 75 kWh it may be 269-to-299 miles in rear wheel drive configuration, instead of 249 miles on Model S. And should Tesla ever deign to cram as much as 90 kWh into a Model ☰, I fully expect its range to reach 318-to-353 miles, if not better. Though, by that time, a much higher capacity battery pack will likely appear for Model S, in the 120 kWh-to-135 kWh range, for a ridiculous amount of money, that will _*STILL*_ be a bargain compared to the most high end version of a Porsche Panamera.



Steven said:


> That was actually my point there. I wasn't asking if it was a word, but if it was an appropriate one. I don't know if it can be used in the context I did (ie. one who holds a reservation). I was (slightly) worried I would offend real reservists (those serving in the reserves - be it military, police, etc)


An interesting concern, but I doubt the word is _'reserved'_ for them alone.



Steven said:


> Any reasonable person would.


Good.



Steven said:


> I totally get your point but I wanted to comment on this specifically. "they" are correct. The interior of the S is nowhere near "luxury", and that's why I've always been bothered that it is pigeon-holed into the "ultra luxury" category solely based on its price. The price is due to the revolutionary technology shift. The low volume. The ground breaking regime change in the automotive machine. There is hardly anything "luxury" about it... yet I feel it is worth every dime. People (and media, and even Tesla themselves) insist on comparing it to this Benz or that Beemer or whatever. It compares to nothing. It is the Model S (X). One either gets that or they don't. If they don't, there's no sense comparing it to something else, especially not in the amount of Corinthian leather it may or may not have.
> 
> But yeah, the plastics and fit and finish it has? Not a whole lot better than any car I've ever owned (Hondas, Suzukis, Mazdas... everyman cars) and far less than the one "luxury" vehicle I owned (stupid 2003 Caddie I'm ashamed to admit to. ****ing 15Mpg... yeesh, what was I thinking). And it matters not one little bit. Or shouldn't, anyway.


Tesla Motors is not a _'luxury'_ automobile manufacturer. They build Expensive, Performance, Economy cars today. Cars that cost a lot to buy, are a lot of fun to drive, and burn absolutely no gasoline. The Model ☰ will be an Affordable/Attainable, Performance, Economy car. It won't break the bank, it will be fun to drive, and won't burn any gas.

I am not particularly impressed by _'luxury'_ at all. I cannot fully express the extent to which I am gladdened the Model S does _NOT_ look like a Porsche Panamera inside. I learned over three decades ago that the firmest demarcation of the concept of automotive _'luxury'_ starts and ends with Rolls-Royce and Bentley. Everyone else in the automotive marketplace has been chasing those two, attempting to either blatantly copy or outright replicate their style and substance for nearly 100 years. If they are respectively Coca-Cola and Pepsi, then Mercedes-Benz, AUDI, BMW, Jaguar and the like are Royal Crown, while just about everyone else among ICE manufacturers is a generic store brand of _'Cola'_. I find it absolutely laughable that anyone argues the relative _'superiority'_ of one impostor's counterfeit handicraft over another's. They are all knockoffs. Get _*'The Real Thing'®*_ if you truly crave _'luxury'_.

Tesla is special though, bringing a new punch and flavor to the realm of automotive design, one that does what the child inside me always knew was possible. So, it may not have quite the same market panache as Coca-Cola, but you can hand me a *Sprecher Puma Kola* any day of the week while I drive a Tesla instead of those ICE poser-mobiles that lean on 19th century themes of _'luxury'_ that are literally gleaned from Victorian Era stagecoach design, right down to the _'Saddleback Leather'_. Tesla is the future, and should not hearken back to the _'good ole days'_ of a wafting stench of horse manure and warm pools of urine in the mud.



Steven said:


> And so does everyone else, Musk included. It drives me nuts. For the same reasoning I gave above, I see no reason to compare the Model 3 to any ICE. The fact it isn't an ICE puts it far above, regardless of its 0-60 time, luxury appointments, etc. Compare it to the REAL cars in its class - the Leaf, the Bolt, the 100 different models to come in the near future THANKS TO TESLA.


There is a reason. Because those who are inexorably tied to ICE will demand it be so. They will never, ever, _EVER_ give up on ICE until you prove them wrong, bust their nose, beat them down, make them cry, _"Uncle!"_ They will keep issuing challenge after challenge, then not giving credit for accomplishments, then moving the goalposts over and over and over again -- if you let them. But if you issue the challenge yourself, by calling out their self-professed alpha dog champion, standing alone on Mount Olympus, as the ever-popular, singularly magnificent, undefeated KING of ICE -- and then beat them? There are no excuses left. None.

Heck, before 2012, BMW couldn't even stand by the _'superior Range'_ benchmark as an advantage over electric vehicles, because gasoline powered 3-Series were all gas guzzlers -- none of them with a range over even 400 miles. Its most powerful representatives, M3 and M4, each have an EPA Range of 300 miles with an Automatic, and 316 miles with a Manual transmission. The Model S can already exceed that, and I expect that the Model ☰ may well do so before long.

The LEAF and BOLT are in no way whatsoever in the same _'class'_ as the Model ☰. One is designed to take on the Ford Fiesta as a commuter torture chamber, while the other is an analog to the Honda FIT as a 5/8th scale minivan. Once again, the idea is to prove once and for all that electric vehicles are the best option to drive -- without any of the compromises that are typically foisted upon _'compliance cars'_ by traditional automobile manufacturers. Things like a $20,000 premium over ICE cars of the same configuration. Or extreme short range and lack of a charging network, that make them not more than _'city cars'_. Or gawd-awful butt-ugly _'styling'_ that causes one to avert their eyes. Or lackluster performance that kills the soul.

All these are points the Tesla Model ☰ addresses head on as part of the mission to eliminate and replace ICE for ground transportation going forward by offering a compelling alternative through sustainable fully electric vehicles. These are all the points that ICE manufacturers specifically use to cripple, hobble, and gimp their compliance cars so that the reputation of electric vehicles fails to meet the reasonable expectations of anyone that might consider buying them.

It is imperative that Tesla moves to combat the misinformation campaign that has been lodged against electric vehicles for decades through direct confrontation and full comparison that allows for complete education of consumers everywhere. Otherwise it will seem not only that they have something to hide, but someone to hide from. Better to put the traditional automobile manufacturers on their heels, searching for a weapon, an escape, a savior, and finding none.



Steven said:


> I'm sorry, but I am so tired of this "not better than MS" rule that people think Tesla has to adhere to. At one point at the start of this "anti-sell" thing he made some tweet that vaguely referenced relative performance... and everyone suddenly reads that as each and every thing about the 3 must be worse than that of the S. That no new tech must be introduced. That's not at all what he said. On the whole - just as it should for a car costing < half - the 3 will be slower, less range, and less tech. But that doesn't mean each and every thing must be <=. Specific to batteries, the Model 3 has an entirely different cell/pack configuration. By the time they are delivered, who knows what the pack sizes will be. And they're nominal anyway. The 75KWh pack on the S is not actually 75KWh... it just sounds nice and is reasonably close. It is quite possible that the S has 75.2KWh and the 3 has 77.8KWh and that's perfectly fine.
> 
> And yes, the Model 3 could have a HUD even though the S doesn't  The S would still be a superior car with better tech on the whole. [/rant]


There is a contingent of vocal Model S owners who have for some time protested actions by Tesla that they perceive to lower the residual value of their cars. They are especially concerned that the Model ☰ will somehow invalidate their purchase of a Model S, making the car somehow _'worthless'_. Those people should really chill. But they never do.

I point out to them time and again that just as 3-Series outsells 7-Series, while A4 outsells A8, and C-Class outsells S-Class -- this is all part of the plan. Because the top-of-the-line 3-Series blows the doors off the best 7-Series, the quickest A4 is more so than any A8, and the C-Class is no pushover to the S-Class. Companies that purposely choose to gimp their entries to the _'entry level luxury'_ market segment tend to not only see lower sales figures than 3-Series, they also fall to the 7-Series on the high end.

You can see this historically reflected in sales figures of Lexus IS compared to BMW 3-Series, and LS compared to 7-Series. It is a poor strategy to _'run scared'_. It does distress me somewhat that Elon Musk has decided to cater to those who are so afraid for the _'resale value'_ of their cars -- something that is of no concern to me, ever -- I buy for me, not the next guy.

The real difference is a matter of perspective. At those traditional automobile manufacturers, the low-end cars exist to support their high end offerings. At Tesla, it is the other way around -- the low end cars were the goal all along, and the high end cars have allowed them to strive toward that goal.

_"I don't understand... In Germany, BMW is... regular, $#!+ car -- like a Chevy!" -- A German Ex-patriot Co-worker in the Early 1990s_​


----------



## Steven

Your passion is obvious. Commendable. Slightly blind, but that's ok. You're fun to read.

Ps. I personally directly compare the model 3 to a Honda Fit . It is my primary daily driver now, so of course that's what I compare it to. My point was the idea of "class" goes out the window in this transitionary period between ICE and EV. Everyone seems to want to compare on price categories, but that's really irrelevant. Your only point I really disagree with is dismissing other EVs as the competition. For an EV shopper, they are the ONLY competition. And they ALL have compelling reasons to buy over the 3. I'm sure you'll scoff at that, but if it weren't true, they would have sales figures of nil. They don't. Ergo facto, to the right buyer, they are the right choice.


----------



## Red Sage

Steven said:


> Your passion is obvious. Commendable. Slightly blind, but that's ok. You're fun to read.


I likes what I likes!  And I don't like BMW, Mercedes-Benz, or Porsche very much. AUDI is OK, sometimes. 

And yes, my posts on the internet are all closed captioned for the humour impaired.


----------



## Steven

Red Sage said:


> I likes what I likes!  And I don't like BMW, Mercedes-Benz, or Porsche very much. AUDI is OK, sometimes.


My view exactly, lol. I roll my eyes at Porsches. I don't even notice BMW. I've never figured out the appeal of MB. Audi... well, I admit they catch my eye. But it ends there. Their fuel efficiency numbers were never where they needed to be and now - thanks to Tesla - they are entirely irrelevant to me.


----------



## Red Sage

Steven said:


> Your only point I really disagree with is dismissing other EVs as the competition. For an EV shopper, they are the ONLY competition. And they ALL have compelling reasons to buy over the 3. I'm sure you'll scoff at that, but if it weren't true, they would have sales figures of nil. They don't. Ergo facto, to the right buyer, they are the right choice.


OK. Tell me... What is... Or, how do you define _'competition'_, exactly?

To me, the primary competitor for anyone in any endeavor should be themselves. That is, how can I possibly do better than you, without doing better than myself? So... What is it about the Nissan LEAF that is vastly superior to its competition in its home stable? The VERSA, SENTRA, ALTIMA, MAXIMA...? Looking at those four vehicles, did Nissan put their best foot forward in all aspects of vehicle design when creating the LEAF?

Similar questions can be asked of Chevrolet relative to the BOLT versus CRUZE and MALIBU. Did Chevy really try their absolute level best to build a superior vehicle to those cars for more money? Did Chevy make any real attempt to build a superior electric vehicle at the same price point, or even less than those stable mates?

And, five years after the release of Model S, and now coming up on 11 years since Elon Musk outlined what Tesla intended to do with a mass market fully electric vehicle some day, are the LEAF and BOLT the absolute best that anyone among traditional automobile manufacturers can manage in terms of configuration, styling, performance, range, and economy? If so, why should I be impressed?

So many questions. They aren't rhetorical. I really want to know. Though I am certain those answers will not be forthcoming from those companies any time soon. Thus, I form my own opinion from the evidence before me.

Neither of them wants to build an electric car that is literally superior to their ICE vehicles.
Neither of them wants to build an electric car that is as visually attractive as their ICE vehicles.
Neither of them wants to build an electric car at all if that means they will be able to keep offering ICE vehicles.
Neither of them wants to build an electric car that would impress me -- or anyone else.
Neither of them wants to build an electric car in a form that is desirable in configuration, styling, performance, range, or economy.
Because building a true competitor as an electric vehicle would be to expose all of their ICE products as also-rans. Still, I wonder what you consider to be _'compelling reasons to buy'_ such compliance cars beyond their current marketplace availability. It seems to be a statement designed purposefully to elucidate scoffing laughter and snorting disgust.

Ultimately, to me, a competitor would do their very best. The INFINITI Q50 seems to be the best Nissan is able to offer at under $50,000. Where is their fully electric equivalent as a Midsize sports sedan? Tesla is building one. Why can't Nissan?

The Chevrolet MALIBU is a vastly superior vehicle to the BOLT. Why? The BOLT costs thousands of dollars more. One might interpret this to mean Chevrolet believes you should get less for more when adding a plug to a car. Why did Chevrolet make the BOLT look like a $17,000 car, then but a $37,000 price tag on it?

Chevrolet is a division of General Motors. They also offer the Cadillac ATS and Buick LaCrosse, for less money than the BOLT. Are Consumers truly expected to overlook that these cars are far better than the BOLT, which costs more, just to drive electric?

This is what competition really looks like... The Tesla Model ☰ will likely be available in a Performance trim that is quicker than the original Tesla Roadster, has a higher top speed, and a greater overall range, while also having more passenger and cargo space and it still will cost less than half as much even in fully loaded trim. The Tesla Model ☰ in base trim will also be a better car than the Chevrolet MALIBU, Buick LaCrosse, and Cadillac ATS while still costing less than a Chevrolet BOLT.

See the difference?


----------



## Michael Russo

Red Sage said:


> Heh. Well, that should probably be _'sails'_... But it still works fine for this discussion anyway. We'll pretend you did that on purpose! A proper pun! Well said!  :hearteyes::sunglasses::yum::smirk:


Right on! It was indeed so fitting despite the typo that I did not even notice it...


----------



## BigBri

Michael Russo said:


> Right on! It was indeed so fitting despite the typo that I did not even notice it...


Shouldn't type at night I guess.


----------



## Red Sage

Anytime you need to get a song out of your head, just think of Ferris Bueller singing _'Twist and Shout'_ on a float in the middle of Chicago. See? It works.


----------



## Vistan

TrevP said:


> I checked out the new Miata today, looks like a really fun car!! That's a mid-life crisis car if I ever saw one though  No trunk to speak of but the foldaway motorized cabrio roof is really cool


TrevP: Checkout my avatar - that's what I'm giving up for the 3...hopefully late this fall.


----------



## ModFather

Matthew Morgan said:


> Should I point out the misaligned body panels to get us a little closer to 1000?


Corgi?


----------



## Uricasha

el crucero said:


> Corgi?


Yes. I'll have to Saran Wrap the interior to minimize the dog hair explosion


----------



## Michael Russo

Vistan said:


> TrevP: Checkout my avatar - that's what I'm giving up for the 3...hopefully late this fall.


You mean giving up your midlife crisis, right?


----------



## AEDennis

MelindaV said:


> is he the one supposedly worth $11B?
> 
> also for fun, looked up what you can get for $1B. One could purchase The Cubbies, Maple Leafs or Lakers (I'd go with the Cubs, because I like to torture myself waiting for the curse to start back up. Maybe it could be a 2for1 and get the M's tossed in for a bargain), an Airbus A380, the Solomon Islands, Hannah Montana, a luxury resort in Madrid or maybe the dream of a factory in the Las Vegas desert


I think the Lakers are worth a bit more than $1B... Latest according to Forbes is $3B...

As for baseball, go for the Cubs. If they're that loyal for as long as the drought's been, with a championship now achieved, they'll be even better (value wise.)


----------



## MelindaV

ack - google and it's out of date information...

not to mention in favor of the Cubs, I've caught a Kris Bryant foul ball (that I handed off to the 15 year old kid next to me , so its like I know him and the team personally already.


----------



## Badback

MelindaV said:


> ack - google and it's out of date information...
> 
> not to mention in favor of the Cubs, I've caught a Kris Bryant foul ball (that I handed off to the 15 year old kid next to me , so its like I know him and the team personally already.


Just noticed your new avatar, very cute, what's her name?


----------



## MelindaV

Badback said:


> Just noticed your new avatar, very cute, what's her name?


HIS name is Tico (Perrito, Chantico or both combined if he is misbehaving - which is often... )


----------



## Badback

MelindaV said:


> HIS name is Tico (Perrito, Chantico or both combined if he is misbehaving - which is often... )


Chantico was the Aztec GODDESS of pain and pleasure. Like all women.

I said she to be PC.


----------



## MelindaV

Badback said:


> Chantico was the Aztec GODDESS of pain and pleasure. Like all women.
> 
> I said she to be PC.


the Aztecan Chantico was also the goddess (we don't tell him he was named after a girl), was also turned into a dog for misbehaving. and the chihuahuas originated from the Aztecs, where they used them as sacrifices.

ETA: maybe his misbehaving is him attempting to live up to his name...

there was also a starbucks short-lived chocolate drink named chantico that came out just after I got him. So for a year or so when I introduced him people would assume I named him because of that (because he looks so chocolatey?)


----------



## Ranma64

hey, do you think a white Model 3 will have higher range than a black Model 3 with same specs? and if so... how much?


----------



## garsh

Ranma64 said:


> hey, do you think a white Model 3 will have higher range than a black Model 3 with same specs?


----------



## Badback

Ranma64 said:


> hey, do you think a white Model 3 will have higher range than a black Model 3 with same specs? and if so... how much?


Depends on whether it's night or day.


----------



## Michael Russo

Badback said:


> Depends on whether it's night or day.


And add to that the _continent_ on which the acceleration is being measured! 

On this note, trust y'all know that 0-60 mph are always faster than 0-100 km/h, right...?


----------



## swampgator

Rick59 said:


> The big issue is two dogs whose nails can cut through wood. Whatever colour seats I get, the back seats will need to be covered in a bullet-proof material. I wonder if Tesla can offer a Lexan seat.


You could cut their nails.  Just saying


----------



## garsh

swampgator said:


> You could cut their nails.  Just saying


Or at least stop sharpening them.


----------



## ModFather

MelindaV said:


> but a magic eraser isn't magic enough to fix a hole/rip in the seat.


Yeah, I found that out the hard way! I tore the seat of my pants out at a wedding and got one of those jumbo size magic erasers and stuck it inside the seat of my pants hoping for a quick repair. People just laughed and pointed at me!


----------



## SoFlaModel3

Watts4me said:


> White on white for me.


The "storm trooper"!


----------



## Uricasha

Watts4me said:


> White on white for me.


It's a Trump America....


----------



## ModFather

Watts4me said:


> White on white for me.





Matthew Morgan said:


> It's a Trump America....


No, that would be orange on gold. It lost all its resale value on the first day. Lowest rated model ever produced. Owners are suffering serious buyer's remorse.


----------



## Red Sage

AEDennis said:


> Yes... to be fair... ALL Model S (which have the same mirror design) could fold in all Model years... it wasn't only until late 2013 builds (Oct-Nov) that the folding mirrors became powered.
> 
> So, I would suspect that the 3 mirrors WILL fold. The question is whether these will fold as powered folding mirrors or whether they will be manually folding.


I think that of the four cars I've owned, only one had folding mirrors. And those were manually folding. I could live with it either way. I'm not particularly enamored by power seats _'...with MEMORY!'_ either. It'll be my car. Once I set the mirrors the way I like, and the driver's seat to where I find most comfortable, there will be no need to change anything.


----------



## Dan Detweiler

Red Sage said:


> Once I set the mirrors the way I like, and the driver's seat to where I find most comfortable, there will be no need to change anything.


Unless you need the mirrors to fold to fit in your garage! (I hope not)

Dan


----------



## Red Sage

Dan Detweiler said:


> Unless you need the mirrors to fold to fit in your garage! (I hope not)


Nah. The garage at the current household was converted to a Family Room a few years ago. All the vehicles live outside now.


----------



## Jean Théoret

If Tesla want to be compared with BMW, MB and Audi, the M3 should have electric mirrors and seats. (hopefully) I have both in my A4.


----------



## Twiglett

Jean Théoret said:


> If Tesla want to be compared with BMW, MB and Audi, the M3 should have electric mirrors and seats. (hopefully) I have both in my A4.
> mpared with BMW 3, MB 300 and A4, the car should have electric mirrors and front seats


Actually the BMW 320i doesn't come with either. http://www.bmwusa.com/Standard/Content/Vehicles/2017/3/320iSedan/Features_and_Specs/Default.aspx


----------



## $ Trillion Musk

EV4Life said:


> Actually the BMW 320i doesn't come with either. http://www.bmwusa.com/Standard/Content/Vehicles/2017/3/320iSedan/Features_and_Specs/Default.aspx


Shhhh... keep it quiet! Tesla might see this.


----------



## ModFather

Red Sage said:


> All the vehicles live outside now.


OUCH! I feel for you dude.


----------



## AEDennis

Red Sage said:


> Nah. The garage at the current household was converted to a Family Room a few years ago. All the vehicles live outside now.





el crucero said:


> OUCH! I feel for you dude.


Guys... we live in great weather for a majority of the year... it's ok to have the cars outside... I'm sure the Family Room is a lot more fun than a garage for a majority of the family.


----------



## Red Sage

AEDennis said:


> Guys... we live in great weather for a majority of the year... it's ok to have the cars outside... I'm sure the Family Room is a lot more fun than a garage for a majority of the family.


Well, you do anyway... I moved to Mississippi about a month ago. So nice to be greeted by scattered thundershowers, flash flood warnings, and tornado warnings. It's almost as if I never left!


----------



## AEDennis

Red Sage said:


> Well, you do anyway... I moved to Mississippi about a month ago. So nice to be greeted by scattered thundershowers, flash flood warnings, and tornado warnings. It's almost as if I never left!


That's a big move. You need a garage STAT (and update your location) though maybe not with Tesla, so you can get your 3 delivered sooner.


----------



## MelindaV

Red Sage said:


> Well, you do anyway... I moved to Mississippi about a month ago. So nice to be greeted by scattered thundershowers, flash flood warnings, and tornado warnings. It's almost as if I never left!


And cost of living vs Southern California takes that into account I'd guess


----------



## Rick59

Ok, Trev is probably on his flight. Let's change this forum to *Tesla Model 3 HUD Forum*.


----------



## Badback

el crucero said:


> Panda you are right, not only EVs of different brands, but also solar roofs! In California solar roofs are everywhere! And we Californicans are well on our way to energy independence. My oldest daughter just leased a Fiat 500e ($50 per month!) to tide her over for 3 years until she can get her model 3. She is purchasing a new home in a development where solar panels and 240 connection in the garage for charging are included in the base price. She has very good friends who live in Brussels who are in the residential construction business there. She called them to tell them about how excited she is to join the revolution. She said there reaction was, meh, almost all homes we build here include solar panels! We, in the US, are way behind the curve in addressing climate change. But things are changing - RAPIDLY!
> 
> Regarding human recognition while driving, it is not a trivial issue and deserves priority consideration. I seriously think that future iterations of the technology will be built around infrared recognition and night vision. I live in a 55+ community with drivers who are sometimes let's say-------"less than alert". Three times in the last year I have almost been hit while crossing at a crosswalk while walking Ricky Ricardo in the evening (7pm-ish). I believe the drivers when they say, "I didn't see you!" AND THAT IS WHAT'S REALLY SCARY!


I'm calling foul. You can't bring up Ricky Ricardo without posting a picture.


----------



## ModFather

Badback said:


> I'm calling foul. You can't bring up Ricky Ricardo without posting a picture.


check avatar,  he is Havanese breed, indigenous to Cuba. He is bilingual, extremely social, an entertainer, a clown, and a philanderer when it comes to female dogs. And the next question is--------yes, Lucy lives next door, she is a red haired Dachshund and they have a thing going! 

@Badback we have several Havanese owners up in your area that are active on our Havanese forum. Wonderful breed, playful, lots of fun. I know of one double MS owner who has a Havanese up in the San Francisco Bay area. Once I get my model 3, we will have a meetup (maybe at Harris Ranch Supercharger) and playdate for the dogs and oogle each other's cars!


----------



## Michael Russo

el crucero said:


> _*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *_


Love the Gif file! I'll use it from time to time!


----------



## ModFather

garsh said:


> I still believe that the "on/off/volume" knob was the pinnacle of user interface design. A satisfying "click" when you turn it all the way to the left for off. No worries about blasting out your eardrums when you first start the car, because you can turn the volume all the way down before starting it. Buttons just don't compare.
> </getoffmylawn>


Yep, dem were de good ol' days. Half the members on this forum are young whippersnappers that have no idea what we are talking about. I loved the days when you could take a newspaper out to the outhouse and it served a dual purpose.


----------



## ModFather

Michael Russo said:


> Love the Gif file! I'll use it from time to time!


"Copying is the sincerest form of flattery" (anon)


----------



## Michael Russo

el crucero said:


> "Copying is the sincerest form of flattery" (anon)


It's not copying ... it's being inspired...


----------



## kp623

Does Tesla accept trade-ins for Model 3?


----------



## JBsC6

Most manufacturers do create an inventory of vehicles and then do a group of vehicles within the inventory buildup that are used for quality control checks..once all the vehicles that have any quality control issues are corrected......shipments can follow.

Sure there will be a sample of vehicles to be sent to the dealerships across the country for display and sales. I believe there will be a small sample of vehicles delivered. Then a production build up or a mass distribution across the country.


----------



## sclyde

Dan Detweiler said:


> The recent article on CPO Model S's being released was intriguing with many of them down into my realm of possibility when it comes to price...however...almost none of them have even Autopilot 1 in them. That is the one feature that is a must for me.
> 
> Dan


Haha, sounds like we're thinking very alike. I too was looking at the ones released today and to get one with Autopilot 1 you end up with a 60k+ car. And again, it's just AP1. AP2 would definitely be nice. Hence why I decided to hold out till we learn more. A co-worker wasn't so willing to wait... pulled the trigger on a CPO P85D. I'll be content with having him drive to lunch every day


----------



## JBsC6

sclyde said:


> Haha, sounds like we're thinking very alike. I too was looking at the ones released today and to get one with Autopilot 1 you end up with a 60k+ car. And again, it's just AP1. AP2 would definitely be nice. Hence why I decided to hold out till we learn more. A co-worker wasn't so willing to wait... pulled the trigger on a CPO P85D. I'll be content with having him drive to lunch every day


That p85d with insane mode was my first test drive that sold me on tesla..tell us what he paid and the mileage although I'm still gonna wait for the model 3 awd performance mode...

The S is just too large in my opinion...cool as hell but a long long vehicle..


----------



## sclyde

JBsC6 said:


> That p85d with insane mode was my first test drive that sold me on tesla..tell us what he paid and the mileage although I'm still gonna wait for the model 3 awd performance mode...
> 
> The S is just too large in my opinion...cool as hell but a long long vehicle..


There were a few cheaper P85D options, but not in the colors / features he wanted. He ended up with the attached.

[edit] - agreed that the S is too large. I loved everything about it except how long it felt when parking; and I have an SUV that doesn't feel as long.


----------



## Gary Moore

Zen is the answer. When kayaking through the rapids, it is certainly advisable to know where the rocks are in advance, but if no one has ever paddled the stream before you, then you must follow instinct. (Instinct is code for the fallout from all the mistakes which have ever been made. Remember that your ancestors were either born incredibly lucky or else they were adequately well-attuned to the current unfolding of the nature of things by some other unfathomable means.)

At least the living (_hopefully inclusive of you_) have the street cred to have made no mistakes so far which have placed them among the dead.

In any event, imagine all the possible journeys. When the actual journey arrives as the now, take a plausibly appropriate course. Wobbling is largely frowned upon in Zen.

Go with the flow. Worrying must be released and balanced against the flow of time. It does not say on your birth certificate that you have created the cosmos or that everyone will be legally entitled to blame you for it.

Chill. This too shall pass. If you are a Zen monk, sometimes you just have to set yourself on fire to get people out of their trance. It's just how the cookie crumbles.

Or, if you should prefer trusting in old works like _The Reader's Digest_, then Mark Twain (that fake name of a river boat gambler) might have said, "I am an old man and have known a great many troubles, but most of them never happened."


Personally, I take my own comfort in that other great fictional sage, Alfred E, Neuman: "What, me worry?"

I'll hop off my soap box for Voltaire, who said that doubt is not a pleasant condition, but certainty is an absurd one.


----------



## sclyde

kp623 said:


> Does Tesla accept trade-ins for Model 3?


I would be surprised if they didn't. I suspect trade in / lease / buy / cash / loan options will be identical to the S & X. But we won't know for sure until purchases start to open up.


----------



## garsh

MelindaV said:


> from Tesla Pittsburg


AHEM...

Pittsburg is some dinky little city in California.
Those photos are from Tesla Pittsburgh.


----------



## MelindaV

garsh said:


> AHEM...
> 
> Pittsburg is some dinky little city in California.
> Those photos are from Tesla Pittsburgh.


sheesh... first @Michael Russo corrects my spelling of Belgians (I suppose he would know) and now you with your fancy east coast spelling


----------



## AEDennis

MelindaV said:


> sheesh... first @Michael Russo corrects my spelling of Belgians (I suppose he would know) and now you with your fancy east coast spelling


Well, it's a good thing Washingtonians spell Vancouver the same way that the British Columbians do!


----------



## Bokonon

MelindaV said:


> sheesh... first @Michael Russo corrects my spelling of Belgians (I suppose he would know) and now you with your fancy east coast spelling


...but I bet you're the only one amongst you three who knows the proper pronunciation of "Willamette".


----------



## MelindaV

Bokonon said:


> ...but I bet you're the only one amongst you three who knows the proper pronunciation of "Willamette".


one of my coworkers moved out here from OH last summer and JUST realized she's been saying it totally wrong - and you can see the thing from our office! ha. She did learn OREGON right away, but Couch St, Tigard, Madras, etc.. are just now coming up wrong


----------



## ModFather

MelindaV said:


> one of my coworkers moved out here from OH last summer and JUST realized she's been saying it totally wrong - and you can see the thing from our office! ha. She did learn OREGON right away, but Couch St, Tigard, Madras, etc.. are just now coming up wrong


What about "the Dalles"?


----------



## Michael Russo

MelindaV said:


> one of my coworkers moved out here from OH last summer and JUST realized she's been saying it totally wrong - and you can see the thing from our office! ha. She did learn OREGON right away, but Couch St, Tigard, Madras, etc.. are just now coming up wrong


I fail to understand what's so hard about pronouncing Willamette...


----------



## MelindaV

Michael Russo said:


> I fail to understand what's so hard about pronouncing Willamette...


ok, go ahead....


----------



## MelindaV

el crucero said:


> What about "the Dalles"?


I am working on a project right now in The Dalles, and (which for those that don't know is pronounced 'The Dals') and it is so awkward to type something like 'the The Dalles'. Doesn't seem odd saying it, but writing it just feels wrong.

ETA: moved over to OT as not to annoy those not caring how you pronounce NW places


----------



## $ Trillion Musk

Lemme guess... it's not pronounced as Will-i-am-ette?


----------



## MelindaV

Safe Daddy Driver said:


> Lemme guess... it's not pronounced as Will-i-am-ette?


no
but closer than most would get. the typical non-local will say Will-a-met-EE


----------



## Michael Russo

MelindaV said:


> ok, go ahead....


This is where my age shows... recorded a voice memo, though I'm caughing and now I dunno how to attach it.
Since I'm bold I will send it you offline.
I expect this to be a trick challenge so won't surprised if you guys have a weird local way of sayin' it!
You can burst my bubble as you please!!


----------



## MelindaV

Michael Russo said:


> This is where my age shows... recorded a voice memo, though I'm caughing and now I dunno how to attach it.
> Since I'm bold I will send it you offline.
> I expect this to be a trick challenge so won't surprised if you guys have a weird local way of sayin' it!
> You can burst my bubble as you please!!


you can txt it to me. haha


----------



## MelindaV

Michael Russo said:


> This is where my age shows... recorded a voice memo, though I'm caughing and now I dunno how to attach it.
> Since I'm bold I will send it you offline.
> I expect this to be a trick challenge so won't surprised if you guys have a weird local way of sayin' it!
> You can burst my bubble as you please!!


ok - Michael - see my previous post. If you wanted to match the non-local portlander, you were pretty close


----------



## $ Trillion Musk

I just realized how unusually low the dashboard is from the driver's point of view. The steering wheel must appear like it's floating on air. Did anyone else notice?

Imagine a dashboard that's lower than the speedometer, and without it. That's pretty cool insane if you ask me. 









Any ideas on how this may correlate to Musk's tweet "you won't care"?


----------



## $ Trillion Musk

*The thread states:
Please add your comments to the BETA watch thread*
*
That's what I did. So why was my post above moved to off topic conversations?
*


----------



## ModFather

Safe Daddy Driver said:


> *The thread states:
> Please add your comments to the BETA watch thread
> 
> That's what I did. So why was my post above moved to off topic conversations?*


The moderators have been overcome by Alien Dreadnoughts!

OOOPS, off to "off topic" I go!


----------



## $ Trillion Musk

Would like some discussion about my post. Not getting any airtime from this thread, unfortunately.


----------



## garsh

Safe Daddy Driver said:


> Would like some discussion about my post. Not getting any airtime from this thread, unfortunately.


Which topic was it originally posted in? EDIT: Ok, it *is* offtopic for the beta watch thread. I guess my followup question is: which Electrek article were you originally going to post this to?

Really, don't worry about it. It's not a "bad" thing to have comments moved to other threads (including this one). I've had that happen plenty of times.


----------



## ModFather

Safe Daddy Driver said:


> I just realized how unusually low the dashboard is from the driver's point of view. The steering wheel must appear like it's floating on air. Did anyone else notice?
> 
> Imagine a dashboard that's lower than the speedometer, and without it. That's pretty cool insane if you ask me.
> Any ideas on how this may correlate to Musk's tweet "you won't care"?


Well, here we are in the never neverland of "off topic." Why? Beats me. Anyway, back on topic in off topic:

I think the interior/dash of the model 3 is going to be beyond unbelievable once you get behind the command center. In fact, I think that it is going to feel so different that it will be the number one reason why the general public will refuse to consider the model 3. There are just too many traditional people who are stuck in the'80's and will refuse to adopt new ways of thinking about transportation and the systems that support it until they are forced to. But this interior is a game changer! It is the model for the immediate future and the precursor for even more radical solutions for the further future. It is not only going to happen, it has happened and we are the pioneer early adopters!

As far as EM's tweets, who knows what they mean. With regards to all people who tweet, "I won't care."


----------



## $ Trillion Musk

garsh said:


> Which topic was it originally posted in? EDIT: Ok, it *is* offtopic for the beta watch thread. I guess my followup question is: which Electrek article were you originally going to post this to?
> 
> Really, don't worry about it. It's not a "bad" thing to have comments moved to other threads (including this one). I've had that happen plenty of times.


I originally posted on this thread.

Since there were no replies, I then posted on the Beta Watch thread per the instructions *Please add your comments to the BETA watch thread*, but a moderator moved that to this thread. Geez. I'll create a new thread next time!


----------



## garsh

Safe Daddy Driver said:


> Geez. I'll create a new thread next time!


Seriously, it's not a big deal.


----------



## MelindaV

Safe Daddy Driver said:


> *The thread states:
> Please add your comments to the BETA watch thread
> 
> That's what I did. So why was my post above moved to off topic conversations?*


I moved it because it was random and a duplicate of your post here saying the exact same thing.


----------



## $ Trillion Musk

MelindaV said:


> I moved it because it was random and a duplicate of your post here saying the exact same thing.


My mistake. I was only trying to follow instructions. I should've deleted my first post prior to duplicating it on the beta thread.


----------



## garsh

Safe Daddy Driver said:


> My mistake. I was only trying to follow instructions. I should've deleted my first post prior to duplicating it on the beta thread.


Don't overthink it. I just reply however I want. If the mods think it's off-topic, then they move my post. It's all good.

But yeah, don't post duplicates.


----------



## $ Trillion Musk

garsh said:


> Don't overthink it. I just reply however I want. If the mods think it's off-topic, then they move my post. It's all good.
> 
> But yeah, don't post duplicates.


Would like to be in good standing with @MelindaV too.


----------



## garsh

Safe Daddy Driver said:


> Would like to be in good standing with @MelindaV too.


No worries. Mods love it when there are off-topic replies. It gives them something to do and gives their lives meaning.


----------



## Michael Russo

garsh said:


> No worries. Mods love it when there are off-topic replies. It gives them something to do and gives their lives meaning.


You are so right... T≡SLA is my morning star...


----------



## JBsC6

Ok...sometimes thank you include discount rates....none of us know and I would say awesome.

(Keyboard on cellphone to small and it was too sunny by pool.


----------



## JBsC6

Tesla model 3 excitment follows us everywhere we go! Too sunny to see keyboard.


----------



## ModFather

Lost in translation? IRTNOG!


----------



## JBsC6

I'm at the club enjoying the poolside beverages ...


----------



## JBsC6

Sorry


----------



## ModFather

JBsC6 said:


> I'm at the club enjoying the poolside beverages ...


No shift! Yu sewerd hada me fueled! Yu needa cupa Covfefe.


----------



## JBsC6

Keep,a sense of humor life is too short to be so serious all the time. Glad you enjoyed my posts in the sun...

Please accept my apologies I didn't type the words close or that spell check kicked in and took my posts for a ride...

Just think how many smiles we put on people's faces by accident,

Have a nice day and big thanks to the moderators.


----------



## $ Trillion Musk

Glad to know someone enjoyed the summer weather in our area. It's long overdue.


----------



## ModFather

JBsC6 said:


> Keep,a sense of humor life is too short to be so serious all the time. .


Hey amigo, no problema. Been there, done that!


----------



## ModFather

MelindaV said:


> the trunk 'only' holds a a large roll of construction drawings, a box of cultured stone, a carpet sample, hard hats


..........two turtle doves, and a partridge in a pear tree. Christmas in July, it's just around the corner!


----------



## ModFather

MelindaV said:


> Yesterday a co-worker and I took a 400mile work road trip in my Solstice (also designed by Franz von Holzhausen) to add to the solo 200 mile work trip the day before.


After posting this morning, I too had to drive 70 miles to one of my job sites in my 12 year old Escape Hybrid field office (tree hugger green color) with 200K+ miles on it with La Crucera and Ricky Ricardo riding shotgun. I was able to carry a 78" armoire, 58" Levelor blind, several gallons of paint, miscellaneous hardware. and a smoke/CO2 detector. Since I am in the Christmas in July spirit and inspired by @MelindaV, I composed the following ditty while dodging potholes, construction debris, and discarded nails on the ground:

On the 12 days of our project, my client gave to me

Twelve change orders

Eleven OSHA warnings

Ten punch list pages

Nine lost Stanley Powerlocks

Eight sheets of redline drawings

Seven family members with different opinions

Six roofers a-leaping

FIVE BUILDING INSPECTOOOOOOOORS

Four checks a-bouncing

Three hard hats for 5 people

Two samples of carpet and granite that look like sugar

AND

One idiot for a construction manager

Dog! How I love this business! Now that I am "retired" the thing that makes it tolerable is
- I am my only client
- I am the architect
- I am the interior decorator
- I am the construction manager
- I have the final sayso
- I practice building permit avoidance when it doesn't involve pubic safety issues

I have a great job foreman, Lupe, and we are muchachos on the same page who speak Spanglish to each other. Yes, I am more than ready for Christmas in July to see what Elon and Franz left under the tree for me!










Wheeeeee, off to off-topic I go. Wait, this is off-topic!


----------



## ModFather

Michael Russo said:


> Oh, I like this!! Makes me think of the German saying: 'Wenn schon, then schon!', which I would loosely translate as 'If you go, you _really_ go!'


We have a similar saying here in the US: "It's not how fast you mow, it's how well you mow fast." (John Deere)


----------



## John

(...)

If you dig Elon-related memes, they are stuck Waiting for Godot...


----------



## John

Not to be confused with waiting for Gal Gadot.

Which I... uh... What were we talking about?


----------



## Michael Russo

John said:


> Not to be confused with waiting for Gal Gadot.
> 
> Which I... uh... What were we talking about?


LOL... who would not want to wait for that Gal..?! Including Elon by the way, now Amber and him have got their separate ways... guess you've Heard?


----------



## Ip Man

my net worth is over 46m melinda. I can pay cash for anything. I was talking about the general public.


----------



## Model34mePlease

Tesla007 said:


> my net worth is over 46m melinda. I can pay cash for anything. I was talking about the general public.


Come on folks, let's let people make their own financial decisions.


----------



## Sandy

Dream, dream ,dream makes me want to break into a song....


----------



## MelindaV

Tesla007 said:


> my net worth is over 46m melinda. I can pay cash for anything. I was talking about the general public.


impressive, since it was 20m in Feb


----------



## Ip Man

I have picked up more investor clients. People seem to like my strategies even after retirement.
My mutual fund is over 47m now. Yup over 1 m in a day- a good day.
My personal amount in the fund is 17m. I bought some gold and silver to balance the fund out.


----------



## Ip Man

For example I'll be cashing in about 1/2 of my shrs of tesla today at open.
NK preparing for missile launch. CNN.


----------



## Michael Russo

Tesla007 said:


> I have picked up more investor clients. People seem to like my strategies even after retirement.
> My mutual fund is over 47m now. Yup over 1 m in a day- a good day.
> My personal amount in the fund is 17m. I bought some gold and silver to balance the fund out.


There's obviously something you're doing it right... Mind sharing a bit of your experience in pm? Am afraid I may be a bit short of cash for Midnight S≡R≡NITY...


----------



## JWardell

Taking sensationalist news media literally is not exactly doing it right.


----------



## Michael Russo

JWardell said:


> Taking sensationalist news media literally is not exactly doing it right.


Not to start _*any*_ discussion, nor wanting to venture in undesired political territory, yet just to clarify, what '_sensationalist news media_' are you referring to...? CNN?
Yes or No suffices... You're entitled to your opinion.


----------



## JWardell

Michael Russo said:


> Not to start _*any*_ discussion, nor wanting to venture in undesired political territory, yet just to clarify, what '_sensationalist news media_' are you referring to...? CNN?
> Yes or No suffices... You're entitled to your opinion.


CNN has grown more and more sensationalist over the years. They blow normal storms out of proportion, start screaming conversations with 12 people on screen at a time, get people worked up for more views. It works. Well.
Slightly different that other organizations that just make up stories completely for the same end result. 
And today I just watched ESPN have an auctioneer fire auction players off to bidders.
Traditional TV news media is going down the tubes fast.

I'm tired of watching a 30 second ad, then two minutes of commentary, to finally see a blurry 5-second video clip that someone posted on twitter. Then a panel of four to discuss it for another 5 minutes.
More and more are turning to getting news from the source thanks to twitter and reddit.


----------



## Michael Russo

JWardell said:


> CNN has grown more and more sensationalist over the years. They blow normal storms out of proportion, start screaming conversations with 12 people on screen at a time, get people worked up for more views. It works. Well.
> Slightly different that other organizations that just make up stories completely for the same end result.
> And today I just watched ESPN have an auctioneer fire auction players off to bidders.
> Traditional TV news media is going down the tubes fast.
> 
> I'm tired of watching a 30 second ad, then two minutes of commentary, to finally see a blurry 5-second video clip that someone posted on twitter. Then a panel of four to discuss it for another 5 minutes.
> More and more are turning to getting news from the source thanks to twitter and reddit.


Gotcha. As stated, this is lots more than I even expected... 

Now... back to Model 3!! ​


----------



## Tesla2ElectricBoogaloo

LOL @ the wife permitting....


mine just rolls her eyes, sighs and says "do what you want, dear......"

which I know means if she's not wow'd by the car, I'm in trouble.

I have faith Elon hasn't let me down, though.


----------



## SoFlaModel3

Tesla2ElectricBoogaloo said:


> LOL @ the wife permitting....
> 
> mine just rolls her eyes, sighs and says "do what you want, dear......"
> 
> which I know means if she's not wow'd by the car, I'm in trouble.
> 
> I have faith Elon hasn't let me down, though.


Mine says the same, but it means the car just cost me another handbag


----------



## Tesla2ElectricBoogaloo

SoFlaModel3 said:


> Mine says the same, but it means the car just cost me another handbag


you got off easy.....mine buys her own handbags.....I end up having to buy things in the little blue box with the white bow.


----------



## SoFlaModel3

Tesla2ElectricBoogaloo said:


> you got off easy.....mine buys her own handbags.....I end up having to buy things in the little blue box with the white bow.


I have studied tying the bow


----------



## mkg3

JWardell said:


> @mkg3 If you want to solve your obesity problem, your range problem, your gas milage problem, and your debt problem, then just sell your damn car and walk!


Ouch! You really ought to get a better night of sleep so the you have a happier disposition

Hate to disappoint you but I'm not obese - quite fit and healthy thank you. I live in SoCal and we have to be fit and beautiful to live here...I think its in the local law.

Besides, we have to look good in our swim suits ALL YEAR AROUND, unlike Boston who has to live indoors in the winter months to take shelter from below freezing weather. Yeah I know, I spent bit of time in Cambridge.:grin:


----------



## JWardell

You do see the smiley face at the end of that sentence, don't you?


----------



## Ecyrd

Insaneoctane said:


> Is there a good location to route 12v driven chargers to the "phone area"? My phone uses a relatively proprietary technology called "dash charging" that I am sure Tesla won't support, so I would need to use my 12v charger and am wondering if there is an easy way to get my cord to the spot for phones?


I have the same phone, and I can happily report that it will charge from any USB-C outlet: I've used my iMac to charge, I have used my Macbook's charger to charge... So no worries. Dash charging is just the OnePlus way of pushing 4A through the wires, so with a regular USB-C connector you just have a bit less power, that's all. So you should be fine with the USB-C Tesla connector in your Model 3.

The only caveat is that there are some USB-C wires on the market that don't always tell the charger the safe power limits and have been known to fry phones...


----------



## Insaneoctane

Ecyrd said:


> I have the same phone, and I can happily report that it will charge from any USB-C outlet: I've used my iMac to charge, I have used my Macbook's charger to charge... So no worries. Dash charging is just the OnePlus way of pushing 4A through the wires, so with a regular USB-C connector you just have a bit less power, that's all. So you should be fine with the USB-C Tesla connector in your Model 3.
> 
> The only caveat is that there are some USB-C wires on the market that don't always tell the charger the safe power limits and have been known to fry phones...


Thanks for the reply. While I realize that the phone will charge with any USB-C connector, I believe that there are distinct advantages to using the "dash charging" system, namely the ability to charge AND use the phone without it heating up. I use WAZE for my commute which is a minimum of 3 hours each day, so I would like to leave my phone charging and use it while minimizing heat and hopefully battery degradation. So, I would really like to use my 12v dash charging adapter for charging and just hope that I can fish the wire from the closest 12V outlet to the phone area....


----------



## Charlie W

@Michael Russo - Speaking of the recent anniversary of your joining the M3OC ... I'm sure your many friends join me in extending our best wishes on the 60th Anniversary of your birth! 

~Charlie


----------



## Michael Russo

Charlie W said:


> @Michael Russo - Speaking of the recent anniversary of your joining the M3OC ... I'm sure your many friends join me in extending our best wishes on the 60th Anniversary of your birth!
> 
> ~Charlie


Charlie, so kind of you! Many, many thanks for your wishes as well as for your ongoing positive feedback!! Hopefully we can meet some day! How about putting a pic as avatar, by the way?


----------



## Guest

Michael Russo said:


> pickup trucks are extremely popular in the US and, as such represent a key demand element T≡SLA will need to respond to in due course.


Of course they are. We can see that. We can also see obesity. And we can see guns. And a lot of more really bad stuff.
We should not accept things as they are just because. Pickup trucks for fun is not good. Same as having uncontrolled amount of guns and obesity as a norm.
Electrification of pickup truck world is like having an excellent medical care to all cardiovascular diseases that can avoid premature death.
But it doesn't actually solve anything. Might actually prevail even bigger trucks. Medical care might also do the same to obesity.
We need less pickup trucks - not more! Our bodies demand more that tasty stuff - that's how it works. Don't listen. It's a lie.

I do not support populism (do, act, say, support etc what people want to hear/have etc without reasoning just to get something from them, approval, money, votes etc).
Especially on topics that are doing harm (guns, cocaine, meth, bad food, overregulation, ridiculous healthcare system; coming to EU side: studded tires, uncontrolled acceptance of refugees). Having even 5% of vehicles being EXTREMELY oversized is doing a lot of harm for the whole geographical location. Even if they are all electrified. It's fine to see overweight people. It's not fine when a third of a nation is sick. It's fine to own a pickup (especially if it is actually doing what it is intended to do every other day). If we adjust that "800 vehicles per 1000 people" according to vehicle mass, we get WAY more than 1000 vehicle per 1000 residents in US.

If Tesla makes a pickup truck they are sending a message. To the whole planet. End of the line.
Many gigantic companies live on our suffering. Be it McDonalds, CocaCola, Nestle. They do NOT care about health.
They lie about it. They want us to consume their products. They want our money. Our health is the last thing they care.
Good old Marlboro ads come to mind. Or this one (check out the whole channel, incl car manufacturers):




You need a truck. It's bigger. It's safer. It's better. It can carry more stuff. It has more powerful engine.
It makes you look wealthy and sexy. Be popular and move with fashion. Do not think.
Now they are also good for environment so it would be a shame not to buy a new one even though old one was fine.
It's an illusion. As is "key demand element Tesla will need to respond". America won't die out of hunger if burgers
would be wiped from the face of the Earth today. Demand of Tesla's - same thing. We cut out some bad and we add some good.

Culture or what it is sad to see a nation being that weak. Like I said. I'm free. I do not say what others want to hear.
Therefore it is more likely they you, reader, do not like to hear/accept what I say compared to average speaker.
This is why I like Mr Musk. He doesn't listen all the time. He thinks. He does stuff according to true knowledge (science).

People should enjoy their freedom, not exploit it.


----------



## Guest

MelindaV said:


> You are not inside Tesla, do not know what is going into these cars, therefore you are speculating.


Therefore, as you are not in Estonia right now (maybe you were before), you can only speculate, whether studded tires are used here or not. Even though you can find out the correct answer in dozens of ways, the fact that you are not here makes any of your actions (finding out) pointless and worthless. You can be absolutely sure but just because you are not here right now makes any of your knowledge, that might be true last year, absolute speculation.

Therefore, except few people on Earth, we can only speculate, whether Americans were on moon. And those who worked at NASA can say as a fact, and those haven't, can't.

Is that what you say?


----------



## Guest

arnis said:


> Is that what you say?


Off-topic or not, I still need the answer from MelindaV. Otherwise there will be no progress.


----------



## Michael Russo

arnis said:


> Off-topic or not, I still need the answer from MelindaV. Otherwise there will be no progress.


Don't think this discussion will go much further. Like others in the past, fortunately not too often, this is an example of where talking to each other calmly would go a long way to iron out differences. Yet as this is not most likely practical, suggest you agree to disagree and leave it at that. This is a civil space... and we like it like that...


----------



## TaylorSMarks

Michael Russo said:


> Folks, gentle reminder that this thread per the title is for vehicles 'SEEN'... ideally with pics...
> Please post all other stuff related to VIN progression and ramp-up conjectures here
> https://teslaownersonline.com/threa...thm-related-exchanges.5200/page-16#post-57091
> 
> Thank you.
> Your friendly yet obsessive mod from EU...


I apologize for this off-topic post but I figure other people benefit from hearing the response.

I had been flagging the off-topic posts, but a mod (don't know which), declined them all saying people are allowed to go off-topic.

Which is it and/or where's the line? Do you want anything getting flagged? I'm thinking about just writing a script that filters all emails from this forums (since this is the only thread I care about) to delete all the notifications that don't mention new highest VINs.


----------



## KarenRei

Great, now we have an off-topic discussion in this thread. :Þ IMHO, I'd much rather mods err on the side of too lax enforcement of "on topic" posting than too strict. Forums that are overmoderated are really annoying places to be.


----------



## Rick59

KarenRei said:


> Great, now we have an off-topic discussion in this thread. :Þ IMHO, I'd much rather mods err on the side of too lax enforcement of "on topic" posting than too strict. Forums that are overmoderated are really annoying places to be.


Respectfully disagree Karen. If I want to read posts about a certain topic, I really don't want to read another 100 posts about non-related issues, "atta-boys", tangents and other stuff. Count how many posts on this topic actually report VINs and how many don't.


----------



## Michael Russo

TaylorSMarks said:


> I apologize for this off-topic post but I figure other people benefit from hearing the response.
> 
> I had been flagging the off-topic posts, but a mod (don't know which), declined them all saying people are allowed to go off-topic.
> 
> Which is it and/or where's the line? Do you want anything getting flagged? I'm thinking about just writing a script that filters all emails from this forums (since this is the only thread I care about) to delete all the notifications that don't mention new highest VINs.


Taylor, it's always a fine line. On your question re the 'Highest Production VIN Seen' thread, while you are right that the thread is about the 'highest' VIN number seen, we mods are a tad more lenient when someone posts a pic with a VIN number which nicely complements the progression... we also know that delivered cars have not necessarily been delivered with sequential VINs up to now.


KarenRei said:


> Great, now we have an off-topic discussion in this thread. :Þ IMHO, I'd much rather mods err on the side of too lax enforcement of "on topic" posting than too strict. Forums that are overmoderated are really annoying places to be.


While a self-declared 'obsessive' mod, @KarenRei , I can assure you that overall the mod team does permit a certain amount of deviation from perfect thread purity... and, believe me, the level of activity on our favorite forum is now such that anything else would be unmanageable for us, even with a group of 5 mods!! A clear example of that is the thread 'I've got my invite'... 

Now, sometimes, and I've now done it twice with 'Highest Production VIN seen', some maintenance is essential... 
We're super glad to have ya though, please stick around!


----------



## GaryW

Petra said:


> I asked the same question and received a response yesterday: "For now I would select to be waitlisted and choose either of the options. Once white becomes available it will be likely around the time of the other options so that should not be an issue."
> 
> So, basically, they have no idea when white will happen (but that it might show up at the same time as the standard range car and the decoupling of PUP) and are telling people to just pick whichever checkbox in the 'Hold My Place' form so that the form can be submitted (it's a required field). Needless to say, I don't particularly like this solution. I also really don't like the black interior (in the S, X, or 3). On the other hand, the black interior would make it a lot less obvious when the service center makes an absolute mess of your interior... to the point where your car is still at the service center because they're replacing interior trim pieces (B-pillar trim). *twitch*


Random off topic question, but I see you're from Palmdale. How is it because I'm thinking of transferring with my job from OKC to palmdale


----------



## Petra

GaryW said:


> Random off topic question, but I see you're from Palmdale. How is it because I'm thinking of transferring with my job from OKC to palmdale


Despite the Antelope Valley's less than stellar reputation, the Lancaster/Palmdale area is reasonably nice. There's no appreciable traffic, air quality is usually good, there's still lots of open space, housing prices aren't bad (at least for California), it's quiet, you get to see neat aircraft coming and going to Plant 42, not too far from the LA basin (close enough for weekend outings and such... many commute into LA and I think they're crazy), and downtown Lancaster was revamped a few years ago and various events and stuff are held there now. I moved out here from the SF bay area back in 2009 and I really like it.

That said, the weather is a bit harsh. Winters can see lows in the teens with highs in the 40s, but usually more like 20s/30s-50s/60s... summers can see highs of 115, but it's usually more like high 90s to 110 or so. It's very dry here (seriously, humidity in OKC is at ~85% right now and we're at 17%), so staying hydrated is pretty important even if you aren't doing anything. It can be very windy during certain parts of the year. The roads are horrible, but the cities are slowly making progress repaving them. There are a lot of big churches and stuff out here (which is a bit weird to me) and the region contains one of the most conservative-leaning congressional districts in California (also weird). There are also still areas zoned such that you can keep horses on your property.

Quartz Hill is a good place to look if you're wanting a larger more upscale property, Acton is great if you're looking for really upscale properties (for the AV, that is) but Acton would mean a little bit of a commute if your job were in Palmdale proper and the fire risk up there is much higher (both are among the reasons we passed on Acton). Santa Clarita is about 30 minutes away, it's nice but there's traffic, it catches fire occasionally, and just feels like one giant pastel colored strip mall to me.


----------



## GaryW

Petra said:


> Despite the Antelope Valley's less than stellar reputation, the Lancaster/Palmdale area is reasonably nice. There's no appreciable traffic, air quality is usually good, there's still lots of open space, housing prices aren't bad (at least for California), it's quiet, you get to see neat aircraft coming and going to Plant 42, not too far from the LA basin (close enough for weekend outings and such... many commute into LA and I think they're crazy), and downtown Lancaster was revamped a few years ago and various events and stuff are held there now. I moved out here from the SF bay area back in 2009 and I really like it.
> 
> That said, the weather is a bit harsh. Winters can see lows in the teens with highs in the 40s, but usually more like 20s/30s-50s/60s... summers can see highs of 115, but it's usually more like high 90s to 110 or so. It's very dry here (seriously, OKC is at ~85% right now and we're at 17%), so staying hydrated is pretty important even if you aren't doing anything. It can be very windy during certain parts of the year. The roads are horrible, but the cities are slowly making progress repaving them. There are a lot of big churches and stuff out here (which is a bit weird to me) and the region contains one of the most conservative-leaning congressional districts in California (also weird). There are also still areas zoned such that you can keep horses on your property.
> 
> Quartz Hill is a good place to look if you're wanting a larger more upscale property, Acton is great if you're looking for really upscale properties (for the AV, that is) but Acton would mean a little bit of a commute if you job were in Palmdale proper and the fire risk up there is much higher (both are among the reasons we passed on Acton). Santa Clarita is about 30 minutes away, it's nice but there's traffic, it catches fire occasionally, and just feels like one giant pastel colored strip mall to me.


Lol thank you for the insight. I'm glad you put good/bad stuff in your response. We have offices in Palmdale, Redondo Beach. Just liked that the housing was more reasonable there then other places. I definitely don't think I would want to commute from LA everyday either. Was strikes me odd is the conservative leaning statement. I've been in MO and now OKlahoma so I'm trying to get away from conservative areas with everything going on lol. Nothing against the good conservatives though. The winter doesn't seem too bad but summer definitely would be more harsh than normal for me, but I'd manage. I'm going to decide next year if I will relocate but thanks for the insight.


----------



## Petra

GaryW said:


> Was strikes me odd is the conservative leaning statement. I've been in MO and now OKlahoma so I'm trying to get away from conservative areas with everything going on lol.


It's still California and it's still Los Angeles County, so it's not that bad. I mean, heck, the mayor of Lancaster has been doing a good job of pushing solar for new construction, getting EV charging stations built downtown, got the city to form a municipal power company that offers 100% renewable energy plans... he's also a Tesla owner.


----------



## GaryW

Petra said:


> It's still California and it's still Los Angeles County, so it's not that bad. I mean, heck, the mayor of Lancaster has been doing a good job of pushing solar for new construction, getting EV charging stations built downtown, got the city to form a municipal power company that offers 100% renewable energy plans... he's also a Tesla owner.


That's good to know.


----------



## JWardell

I think we are starting to cross that fine line of overmoderation. Lately this is starting to feel more moderated than Tesla's own forums.

Though I received no alerts, I realized several of my posts were edited by a moderator around 4am. They were truncated and replaced with (...) which is not something I would type [mostly because it looks like something that would get redacted by a moderator if I mentioned it.]

The problem is that discussion was not preserved and moved to this off topic thread, and there were no moderator notes describing what was removed or more importantly why. I certainly can't remember everything I ever typed or what others were discussing that has now vanished into the ether.

It is normal in a discussion to broaden the subject and think of something related. I think some of the human interactions that would normally develop relationships and personalities between members are at risk of being removed.

Remember this is a discussion forum, not a Wikipedia entry. It certainly would be useful to have a site wiki or static write up posts that are intentialy kept to be read as a reference.


----------



## Dr. J

Michael Russo said:


> Trust these are Germans living in the USA rather coming all the way from Germany to pick a US spec Model 3, right?


Did they bring the battery assembly robots with them?


----------



## Michel Zehnder

Do they also need an assembly robot for the assembly robot?


----------



## Dr. J

Veering wildly off topic....

At the Gigafactory, June 2017.

"I said *battery* robots!"









(At least I included a picture!)


----------



## KeithS

ON ANOTHER NOTE...MY ESCORT 9500XI DETECTOR HAS GPS (VERY ACURATE) AND GIVE MPH, VOLTAGE, REDLIGHT CAMERA INFO, AND SPEED CAMERA LOCATIONS AS WELL.... THIS ANSWERS ALL MY ISSUES WHEN I GET MY P75DL+...THX


----------



## garsh

Brokedoc said:


> We have already seen from @SoFlaModel3's recent mobile service experience that the dash comes apart amazingly easily.


It may have come apart easily, but I was a little taken aback by just how much had to be taken apart just to replace a glove box. Removing a glove box is usually simpler than that.


----------



## SoFlaModel3

garsh said:


> It may have come apart easily, but I was a little taken aback by just how much had to be taken apart just to replace a glove box. Removing a glove box is usually simpler than that.


That goes back to the mobile tech telling me it's a 10 minute job for S and a 30 minute job on 3.

I know 3 is made for manufacturing ease, but that may not translate to service need.


----------



## Dan Detweiler

SoFlaModel3 said:


> That goes back to the mobile tech telling me it's a 10 minute job for S and a 30 minute job on 3.
> 
> I know 3 is made for manufacturing ease, but that may not translate to service need.


Pretty much off topic here but in response to the difficulty of accessing the glove box for replacement...try replacing the glove box on a 1969 Triumph TR6, or worse, the heater unit. Go ahead, ask me how I know. LOL! 

Looked something like this...









Dan


----------



## Maevra

garsh said:


> It may have come apart easily, but I was a little taken aback by just how much had to be taken apart just to replace a glove box. Removing a glove box is usually simpler than that.


IIRC the glove box should have come off with just a few screws (six I think all around the enclosure). @SoFlaModel3 you mentioned the tech wasn't fully trained yet so perhaps he disassembled too much, or wanted to check something else? Any idea?


----------



## Ken Voss

Dan Detweiler said:


> Pretty much off topic here but in response to the difficulty of accessing the glove box for replacement...try replacing the glove box on a 1969 Triumph TR6, or worse, the heater unit. Go ahead, ask me how I know. LOL!
> 
> Looked something like this...
> 
> View attachment 5852
> 
> 
> Dan


But Dan, you know maintenance is the charm of owning an old British car. Speaking of glove boxes, a Austin Healey sprite (see image of yellow car on the left) doesn't have a glove box, instead it has a grab bar in that location so the passenger doesn't fall out of it, now that is a safety feature that isn't available in the model 3!


----------



## Dan Detweiler

Ken Voss said:


> But Dan, you know maintenance is the charm of owning an old British car. Speaking of glove boxes, a Austin Healey sprite (see image of yellow car on the left) doesn't have a glove box, instead it has a grab bar in that location so the passenger doesn't fall out of it, now that is a safety feature that isn't available in the model 3!


You are absolutely correct about the charm of maintaining a 45 year old British classic. Loved everything about restoring, maintaining, and driving that car.

Dan


----------



## Ken Voss

Dan Detweiler said:


> You are absolutely correct about the charm of maintaining a 45 year old British classic. Loved everything about restoring, maintaining, and driving that car.
> 
> Dan


@Dan Detweiler your TR6 is just getting broken in. My 1958 Sprite turns 60 this year


----------



## Dan Detweiler

Ken Voss said:


> @Dan Detweiler your TR6 is just getting broken in. My 1958 Sprite turns 60 this year


Yeah, well most of my life is "off topic" so I guess it's not surprising. OK, I'll shut up and let everyone moan about white interior now. LOL!

Dan


----------



## Michael Russo

Dan Detweiler said:


> Yeah, well most of my life is "off topic" so I guess it's not surprising. OK, I'll shut up and let everyone moan about white interior now. LOL!
> 
> Dan


Let it all hang out here, my friend!!


----------



## Dan Detweiler

Wow, some moderators are maybe taking life on this forum a little too seriously. A couple of posts to lighten the environment I don't think is grounds for moving posts around but hey...I guess that's why I'm not a moderator. LOL!

Whatever...it's all good.

Dan


----------



## Michael Russo

Dan Detweiler said:


> Wow, some moderators are maybe taking life on this forum a little too seriously. A couple of posts to lighten the environment I don't think is grounds for moving posts around but hey...I guess that's why I'm not a moderator. LOL!
> 
> Whatever...it's all good.
> 
> Dan


So you want to say you didn't perceive the tease on my part in this move, seen you were almost leading me to it in post #317?? 
Not to mention @NJturtlePower 's valid observation...

Like you said, it's all good; you're a great sport (no wonder with a Triumph! )


----------



## SoFlaModel3

Maevra said:


> IIRC the glove box should have come off with just a few screws (six I think all around the enclosure). @SoFlaModel3 you mentioned the tech wasn't fully trained yet so perhaps he disassembled too much, or wanted to check something else? Any idea?


That's possible though it really wasn't a lot of screws that he took out. More the work he had to do to get to the screws.


----------



## garsh

Dan Detweiler said:


> A couple of posts to lighten the environment I don't think is grounds for moving posts around...


Why is "moving posts" viewed as a negative?

I can't keep on-topic to save my life. I'm actually very grateful to @Michael Russo for his help in organizing this corner of my life. He can move my posts around all he likes.


----------



## Michael Russo

garsh said:


> (...) I'm actually very grateful to @Michael Russo for his help in organizing this corner of my life. He can move my posts around all he likes.


The Mod Police express their deepest gratitude...  thanks... it does take staying power at times...


----------



## Maevra

SoFlaModel3 said:


> That's possible though it really wasn't a lot of screws that he took out. More the work he had to do to get to the screws.


Ah good point. I guess achieving a minimalist and clean interior translates to having to hide a lot of the nuts and bolts in less visible and accessible places.


----------



## Dan Detweiler

Michael Russo said:


> The Mod Police express their deepest gratitude...  thanks... it does take staying power at times...


The Mod Police...a bunch of neo-Nazi fascist wackos out to destroy the world by domination over the little guy. Nothing but the man forcing his will upon the unwashed masses. Now, if you don't mind, I'm late for my afternoon medication you bunch of right wing bullies.

Much love,

Dan


----------



## Michael Russo

Dan Detweiler said:


> The Mod Police...a bunch of neo-Nazi fascist wackos out to destroy the world by domination over the little guy. Nothing but the man forcing his will upon the unwashed masses. Now, if you don't mind, I'm late for my afternoon medication you bunch of right wing bullies.
> 
> Much love,
> 
> Dan


Now... now... this is so out there it's even off topic for the off topic thread!! 

Hope the medication helped...


----------



## Ken Voss

I totally get it, here you have two guys talking about old British sports cars on a forum for Model 3, that a little like an iphone forum talking about the teletype machine. Lets move these old dinosaurs out of here.... oh wait I am one of the old dinosaurs


----------



## Michael Russo

Ken Voss said:


> I totally get it, here you have two guys talking about old British sports cars on a forum for Model 3 (...)


Ken, it would have been totally cool if your TRs has white interior...


----------



## Dan Detweiler

Michael Russo said:


> Now... now... this is so out there it's even off topic for the off topic thread!!
> 
> Hope the medication helped...


Always does. LOL!

Dan


----------



## Ken Voss

Michael Russo said:


> Ken, it would have been totally cool if your TRs has white interior...


Michael, I have the 1958 Austin Healey BugEye sprite hot rod with a supercharged 500HP engine and it is exactly like a model 3 in several ways:
- No white interior in either vehicle
- No Alcantara in either vehicle
- No tow hitch in either vehicle
- No roof rack in either vehicle
- No AM radio in either vehicle
- NO FSD in either vehicle
- Both have ample headroom

See how similar they are?
View attachment 5870


----------



## Michael Russo

Ken Voss said:


> Michael, I have the 1958 Austin Healey BugEye sprite hot rod with a supercharged 500HP engine and it is exactly like a model 3 in several ways:
> - No white interior in either vehicle
> - No Alcantara in either vehicle
> - No tow hitch in either vehicle
> - No roof rack in either vehicle
> - No AM radio in either vehicle
> - NO FSD in either vehicle
> - Both have ample headroom
> 
> See how similar they are?
> View attachment 5870
> View attachment 5871


And... NO HUD!!


----------



## Dan Detweiler

Michael Russo said:


> And... NO HUD!!


Sure it has a HUD. Just one display though...CHROME!!!

Dan


----------



## Michael Russo

Dan Detweiler said:


> Sure it has a HUD. Just one display though...CHROME!!!
> 
> Dan


That's not a HUD... its a (shiny) HDD...


----------



## oripaamoni

inspron said:


> Folks, I live about 1 mile away from San Diego Delivery / Service Center. Trust me when I tell you it's a small site for such a large operation. There are probably around 70 Teslas stuffed around the building. I don't think Tesla opening up the order books for San Diego is indicative of this particular delivery center being able to handle a large number of deliveries.
> 
> Day 21 and still no VIN for me. White, 18" aeros.


Wow, Popular combo for SD, wonder if we will all get our vins around the same time, would be pretty solid evidence that they are building them in batches of color and/or wheels.


----------



## Oil Freedom

Joaquin said:


> Either they are actually building a new huge delivery center to be ready in 2-3 weeks (is this possible?), or somebody messed up sending out those invites too early, and they will need to wait longer for delivery than the usual 3-5 weeks.


Maybe they're expanding their delivery hours to 24x7. 3 AM delivery appointment, anyone? MEMEMEMEME!!!


----------



## Oil Freedom

oripaamoni said:


> Wow, Popular combo for SD


Once we all get our white M3s in San Diego, we should arrange a flash mob -- at an ICE dealership. LOL


----------



## ng0

Michael Russo said:


> Folks, while I can appreciate the impatience may be rising as the date of delivery is in sight yet not fully defined yet, may I urge everyone, particularly those who have already been invited to configure, to try to remain as grounded as feasible & spread _positive spirit _rather than repeated angst and/or frustration...
> 
> I think I can speak for all of us standing _way behind in line_ when I say this will be most appreciated!
> 
> Note: this is not inspired by the very last posts on this thread but a more general plea going forward.


yea, there's enough anger and frustration on the official tesla forum, that's why I hang out here.


----------



## Karlsays

SoFlaModel3 said:


> Rotate your phone to landscape -- boom signatures!


Dang! Thanks for the tip. Never realized that.


----------



## Karlsays

Question... can anyone confirm what time online reservations began on 3/31/16, and what time the beginning of the actual keynote/reveal took place? I am just trying to figure out approximately when I reserved on the 31st, but am really not sure. I THINK it was about an hour before the actual reveal started.


----------



## Archer




----------



## Poobah

Karlsays said:


> Question... can anyone confirm what time online reservations began on 3/31/16, and what time the beginning of the actual keynote/reveal took place? I am just trying to figure out approximately when I reserved on the 31st, but am really not sure. I THINK it was about an hour before the actual reveal started.


The original UNVEIL was at 8:30 PM PDT (Pacific Time). Archer provided the time of the first deliveries in his post above.

I remember it well because my wife thought I was nuts STARTING to watch it at 11:30 PM EST when I had to go to work the next day. She continues to think I'm nuts for spending so much time on this forum and others drooling over Teslas.


----------



## NathanBrown

Poobah said:


> The original UNVEIL was at 8:30 PM PDT (Pacific Time). Archer provided the time of the first deliveries in his post above.
> 
> I remember it well because my wife thought I was nuts STARTING to watch it at 11:30 PM EST when I had to go to work the next day. She continues to think I'm nuts for spending so much time on this forum and others drooling over Teslas.


Online Reservations started 1 hour before event: 7:30pm PDT
https://www.theverge.com/2016/3/31/11340290/tesla-model-3-preorder-time-online-reservation


----------



## Oil Freedom

Poobah said:


> ...my wife thought I was nuts...


You're in great company, but I think our spouses will change their minds about our obsession once they experience a M3. One of the reasons I didn't get red is because my wife would then definitely try to take it!


----------



## LUXMAN

Michael Russo said:


> Folks, while I can appreciate the impatience may be rising as the date of delivery is in sight yet not fully defined yet, may I urge everyone, particularly those who have already been invited to configure, to try to remain as grounded as feasible & spread _positive spirit _rather than repeated angst and/or frustration...
> 
> I think I can speak for all of us standing _way behind in line_ when I say this will be most appreciated!
> 
> Note: this is not inspired by the very last posts on this thread but a more general plea going forward.


Ouch.


----------



## Poobah

Oil Freedom said:


> You're in great company, but I think our spouses will change their minds about our obsession once they experience a M3. One of the reasons I didn't get red is because my wife would then definitely try to take it!


That reminds me, anyone ever hear of a post-nuptial? When I did my prenuptial, I had no concept of a "Tesla".


----------



## Archer

Oil Freedom said:


> You're in great company, but I think our spouses will change their minds about our obsession once they experience a M3. One of the reasons I didn't get red is because my wife would then definitely try to take it!


I'm hoping that my wife loves the Model 3 enough to allow me to get her a Model X.


----------



## LUXMAN

Archer said:


> I'm hoping that my wife loves the Model 3 enough to allow me to get her a Model X.


 Ow why would you want to do that?? That X is more than 1/2 way to a Roadster for you!


----------



## ummgood

Sorry I am probably a disgruntled one after the latest invites. Let me see if I can do better...

I am so excited to wait to see if I can configure next Wednesday!


Archer said:


> I'm hoping that my wife loves the Model 3 enough to allow me to get her a Model X.


Me too actually. I will probably have to save up but right now my wife wants a 2018 Ford Expedition Platinum.


----------



## John Slaby

GDN said:


> Agree and figure that could be the case, but she very adamant the time would have been Eastern and I'm pretty sure Tesla has some operations in FL.


Well, I think that confirms that Elon Musk has mastered time travel and knew ahead of time that you were going to make a reservation. Is there anything this guy can't do?


----------



## rsbell

Archer said:


> I'm hoping that my wife loves the Model 3 enough to allow me to get her a Model X.


My wife wants a Model X after this Model 3 adventure. I'm not sure I want to swing an X, but I DO have an extra 3 configuration she's seriously considering using. She wants to spend some time with the new 3 that we pick up Tuesday to see if it's big enough for her and the kids and all the extra nonsense she likes to have with her "just in case". If she likes it I'll order an AWD when they are available and then she gets the hand-me-down.


----------



## Uricasha

Michael Russo said:


> One last post before I go to sleep...
> 
> May I kindly remind all of you to stay on point? This thread is specifically designed to capture factual update information on invites received, and effectively planned next steps leading to actual deliveries.
> It is not meant to host speculation as to what might happen, or what you would like to see happening - yet doesn't...
> 
> Expect another major cleaning exercise by the mod team soon... Then please stick to topic...


Wish there was a way to vote posts down where they disappear after a set number of downvotes..


----------



## Archer

LUXMAN said:


> So update on the process for the Texas folks like @Archer and @Quicksilver
> Got the VIN this morning and the call from the ISA this afternoon.
> They sent me the Purchase Agreement via email. After I signed it electronically, it then went to my wife's email to sign. Once that was done, it was available to pay for in MyTesla.
> 
> Now, what he said is, the car has been made and is in Fremont. It is on its way to the hub in SoCal where it is inspected before it is TRUCKED to Texas (his words).
> For Texas, the vehicle needs to be PAID for before it will be released to be shipped.
> So since I am paying cash, I paid via ACH. They no longer are able to accept Cashiers Checks at time of delivery. With their new easier delivery process for Texas it needs to be paid ahead of time. So your only 2 options are ACH or Wire Transfer.
> I did the ACH and it already shows PAID IN FULL
> 
> He did say the car won't clear the hub until the 10th and wont be here until the 16th. I will be on Spring Break with the family, so tentatively delivery will be 19 March.
> 
> Besides the 6.25% Texas Sales Tax on the whole price including the $1000 Delivery Fee, there is a $235.50 fee for Registration/Transfer?Titling, $7 for state inspection and $29.75 Operating Permit Fee (whatever that is!)


Wonder if we have the same guy. Interesting.


----------



## LUXMAN

Archer said:


> Wonder if we have the same guy. Interesting.


Andres?


----------



## Archer

LUXMAN said:


> Andres?


 Nope. Arnold here.


----------



## Kbm3

Swanny said:


> I suspect this has to do with a push for quarter end somehow. E.G. San Diego is the furthest they can get cars shipped to and hit this quarter. Next week they will probably hit close to the factory. The week after is probably to late for this quarter and will hit east coast hard.


Exactly. Kind of weird that people feel this is so unfair.


----------



## ng0

woh, did you move the whole thread?


----------



## SoFlaModel3

ng0 said:


> woh, did you move the whole thread?


I tried to clean it up a bit, but honestly that thread is a hot mess and apologies if I moved anything incorrectly (I can move things back if they belong). We have a lot of posts that are a mix of on and off topic which leads to responses all over


----------



## Griff

Kbm3 said:


> Exactly. Kind of weird that people feel this is so unfair.


Easy for you to say. You got your invite. I took hours of time out of my day to make a reservation in the expectation that I would get an invitation more quickly. Now people that sat at home and hit submit are getting invites before those of us who stood in line.


----------



## Quicksilver

Griff said:


> Easy for you to say. You got your invite. I took hours of time out of my day to make a reservation in the expectation that I would get an invitation more quickly. Now people that sat at home and hit submit are getting invites before those of us who stood in line.


I know this is a frustration point for me too. But I've already told myself that if I don't get invited by end of April, I am getting another vehicle because my current lease is up this month and my loan approval expires first week in May and I already have family travel plans in late May and late June. If I don't get the 3 this year, I'll probably come back to it or a Model Y in 5 years. I am at peace with this plan if things doesn't work out in April.  Also...I've learned to not get over stressed about things out of my control, in this case Tesla has a plan whether we like it or not.


----------



## Griff

I'm not even stressed yet. I really want SR with full credit, fingers crossed, and a single week delay could make or break that for me. It would be [upsetting] if an online reservation got the full credit on a SR and I couldn't because they had an earlier invitation. @Kbm3's comment just bugged me, because it implies that I have nothing to be annoyed about. [moderator edit]


----------



## DannyNJ

SoFlaModel3 said:


> Ahh Audi S4, I had an Audi A4 previously in life and always wanted an S4 (my favorite color was Nogaro Blue until it was discontinued). Looking forward to meeting up soon!


Daytona Grey I had. Sold it to a guy in Wellington FL of all places.


----------



## MGallo

LorieL said:


> Congratulations! Nice to see another North Bay Model 3! I pick mine up tomorrow. I can hardly stand the wait for morning!


Wow, LorieL, you mean your headshot is not just a question mark?  Nice picture. Congrats on your delivery tomorrow!


----------



## Ziggity15

I saw it in stock about a month ago for a few hrs and since then it's been out of stock every time I've checked and that's at least once a day. I've been kicking myself every day since!


----------



## oripaamoni

SoFlaModel3 said:


> Ahh Audi S4, I had an Audi A4 previously in life and always wanted an S4 (my favorite color was Nogaro Blue until it was discontinued). Looking forward to meeting up soon!


YAY! glad to see some audi guys on here, see the nogaro in my profile pic


----------



## littlD

Simon Says said:


> Ok like many I got the invite yesterday to configure. Line waiter in Monterey and ordered in the first hour. I figure I was between # 50-75 and non Tesla owner nor employee. I am stuck on the order page. Can't decide between 18-19 inch wheels. Anyone tried both and have good driving/handling feedback it would be greatly appreciated.


I've seen a number of people say 18" wheels yield a little more range than 19".

https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-model-3-aero-vs-non-aero-wheels-real-world-efficiency-test/

The article also references our owners club, we have a great community here!


----------



## littlD

SoFlaModel3 said:


> I tried to clean it up a bit, but honestly that thread is a hot mess and apologies if I moved anything incorrectly (I can move things back if they belong). We have a lot of posts that are a mix of on and off topic which leads to responses all over


I'm just honored to be the last word on the move... Wait, should I be?


----------



## LUXMAN

PTFI said:


> I never thought I would see the day when "BABY GOT BACK" would appear in a Model 3>Tech Talk Thread


Yeah. You never know where my mind will go


----------



## EV-Expert

Michael Russo said:


> Well, welcome to M3OC then! Happy you found us at last last.
> 
> Bunch of great people here indeed, sharing knowledge, information & opinions, exchanging with respect and often cracking jokes.
> 
> Enjoy.
> P.S. is your name really Natgalie or might there be a typo?


 Yes, my mother names me Natgalie from birth.


----------



## Michael Russo

Natgalie Capaldi said:


> Yes, my mother names me Natgalie from birth.


Thank you for clarifying. Welcome again, Natgalie! 
Enjoy the forum.


----------



## barjohn

Garsh, as someone that has worked on computers from the earliest days (1962), programming, and doing software development as well as later managing large project software development I can tell you the items above are in the trivial category, or they should be. If not, I don't want those guys coding neural nets and self driving because writing bug free code (relatively) is the hard stuff. In fact the majority of that code is already written and even if having to port it to another computer with different interfaces, the hardest part is done. Probably the bigger problem is most good programmers find stuff like the list above rather boring work and not something they want to do as it isn't very exciting or glamorous.


----------



## garsh

John Griffith said:


> Garsh, as someone that has worked on computers from the earliest days (1962), programming, and doing software development as well as later managing large project software development I can tell you the items above are in the trivial category, or they should be.


We'll have to agree to disagree then. I have been (and continue to be) involved in many software development projects, including several where a single common code base was designed to run on several iterations and versions of hardware. Interactions with hardware tend to be non-trivial. Sure, the documentation says to do X, Y, and Z, but in real life, under various environmental conditions, the hardware doesn't necessarily respond as expected. The analog nature of physics creeps in and causes hardware to deviate from the digital responses that are expected. The documentation is incomplete. And testing against actual hardware in potentially various environmental conditions is time-consuming, so it takes a while to validate any code changes.


----------



## barjohn

garsh said:


> We'll have to agree to disagree then. I have been (and continue to be) involved in many software development projects, including several where a single common code base was designed to run on several iterations and versions of hardware. Interactions with hardware tend to be non-trivial. Sure, the documentation says to do X, Y, and Z, but in real life, under various environmental conditions, the hardware doesn't necessarily respond as expected. The analog nature of physics creeps in and causes hardware to deviate from the digital responses that are expected. The documentation is incomplete. And testing against actual hardware in potentially various environmental conditions is time-consuming, so it takes a while to validate any code changes.


If the items I listed above fall into that category for you and your company I have to wonder how your company has survived. I am the principal inventor and manager of a very large system that has now been deployed to every ship in the Navy and every naval laboratory. It is a highly complex distributed database system and frankly our development team would have considered the tasks listed above as trivial. So yes, we will have to agree to disagree.


----------



## garsh

John Griffith said:


> I have to wonder how your company has survived.


Ouch. Some of my former companies haven't survived. 
#truthhurts


----------



## summerfun

Chihuahua said:


> I agree 100% with each of your points and actually had the same list when I ordered late last night. I wanted this to be an exciting day, but I have to say, I felt a bit used. I was a early morning EST 4/1 reservation holder as well.
> 
> I really don't understand why they felt they had to invite everyone at once. What's the advantage of that?


Lots of quick cash for Tesla...


----------



## JWardell

Tom Hudson said:


> I've been driving an EV since 1997; it's a hand-made conversion of a Geo Metro and has been a great car, but it's got a lot of unibody rust now and it might just prove my old adage that I drive cars until their wheels fall off. I've dreamed of the day someone with a vision for the future would create a mass-produced EV -- and last night my eyes just about popped out of my head when I saw that my car was ready to be designed.
> 
> The icing on the cake was that someone here mentioned that they already have a VIN and they reserved on April 3, 2016 -- the same as me. I can't wait.


A Solectria? Or some DIY conversion? Very cool!


----------



## summerfun

PNWmisty said:


> Obviously, you get it. I totally agree with you. The only part that's missing from your excellent analysis depends upon how you feel about Tesla's mission to become a major EV manufacturer and light a real fire under the asses of ICE manufacturers who have been complete laggards in terms of producing more environmental cars. Just recently, Ford announced it was ceasing production of normal cars and will only make SUV's and trucks!
> 
> Those in favor of Tesla's mission will likely give them a longer leash, understanding that the very survival of Tesla (not to mention their ability to quickly expand their production and model offerings) depends upon Tesla successfully avoiding a debt spiral. The olive branch offered by Tesla to their reservation holders was a price cut on some of the more expensive options and an unbundling of certain options to allow for more flexibility in configuring so as to better meet the needs of the individual reservation holders.
> 
> The real losers here are not those who are simply anxious to take delivery ASAP because no one wants to buy a car from a financially troubled company. And this move will help strengthen Tesla's financial position. The real losers are those few people whose purchase decision, yea or nay, depends upon a specific delivery cutoff. Hopefully, Tesla will fine tune the delivery estimates in the coming weeks to provide more clarity to buyers who need to make other decisions related to delivery timing.
> 
> But, yes, this decision comes with a few casualties which I think were unavoidable. Tesla is literally fighting for their very existence against much larger, stronger sinister forces. I really don't think I'm being overly dramatic here. I think most would agree it would be a sad day indeed if Tesla ran out of cash and was forced to go through a reorganization under bankruptcy law and had their assets acquired by monied interests not aligned to Tesla's core mission.


The only entity Tesla is fighting with for its existence, has been and continues to be, itself. No one ever pressured Tesla to burn through $billions in cash. Or purchase SolarCity which strapped Tesla with nearly $3 billion in additional debt and larger interest payments.

As was recently disclosed, Tesla's push for higher automation backfired and wasted $millions when using proven production methods would have been fine to start with and could have been enhanced further down the road. Even today Tesla may have finally hit a burst rate of 5,000 units, but it took much more manpower and a 4th temporary production line in a temporary facility to finally get there. How were their calculations so far off?

Tesla's wounds to date have been self-inflicted. Let's hope they can move past them and sustain the 5k per week Model 3 build rate they have now achieved. And that Musk will be correct that a sustained rate of 5k per week will be enough to raise Tesla to profitability.


----------



## PNWmisty

summerfun said:


> The only entity Tesla is fighting with for its existence, has been and continues to be, itself. No one ever pressured Tesla to burn through $billions in cash.


Your perspective would carry more weight with me if auto-making wasn't naturally a capital-intensive venture and if the media didn't treat every single Tesla crash as if it were worthy of national coverage on the evening news/webpage front page. It would help if the media didn't propagate misinformation about EV's in general (a large portion of the populous believes EV's are impractical, pollute more than ICE and are only affordable by wealthy liberals).



> Tesla's push for higher automation backfired and wasted $millions when using proven production methods would have been fine to start with and could have been enhanced further down the road. Even today Tesla may have finally hit a burst rate of 5,000 units, but it took much more manpower and a 4th temporary production line in a temporary facility to finally get there. How were their calculations so far off?


Electric cars have a built-in price disadvantage with their large battery packs. I think Musk's plan was to help offset that via more automated production in order to make EV's more cost-effective sooner (we have a global emergency on our hands). As he admitted, he miscalculated how much automation could do. We actually need better and more versatile robots but, of course, that takes time too. All automakers make colossal mistakes, particularly when entering new territory. I guess Musk should have spent 5 years working in traditional automaking facilities before attempting to do it better. But that would not have helped his core mission which is to bring electric cars to market sooner, not later. You can sit on the sidelines and coach from the peanut gallery or you can take the bull by the horns and help change the world.

I know what type of person I hold more respect for.



> Tesla's wounds to date have been self-inflicted.


Some wounds are self-inflicted and some are the direct result of barriers erected by interests that feel threatened by a company like Tesla who brings a new business model to the car industry. Look at all the hoops Tesla has to jump through just to sell a car in Texas! Look at the "fake" test drive done by John Broder and published in the NYT:

https://www.tesla.com/blog/most-peculiar-test-drive

Then we have the very unflattering teardown of a Model 3 from Monroe and Associates (from Auburn Hills, Michigan). I wonder who paid him to do the teardown, some other company in Michigan? Typically, the customer wants the data collected to be confidential and the contract will have a clause preventing the dissemination of gleaned info to parties that didn't pay for it. Instead, Monroe made a series of YouTube videos and published them for free for all to see.

These propaganda pieces have already damaged public perception and reduced the uptake of Model S and Model X vehicles below what they would have been, essentially removing a portion of an important funding mechanism to bring Model 3 to mass production. To say it's all "self-inflicted" is to ignore a lot of obvious evidence staring you right in the face.


----------



## summerfun

PNWmisty said:


> Your perspective would carry more weight with me if auto-making wasn't naturally a capital-intensive venture and if the media didn't treat every single Tesla crash as if it were worthy of national coverage on the evening news/webpage front page. It would help if the media didn't propagate misinformation about EV's in general (a large portion of the populous believes EV's are impractical, pollute more than ICE and are only affordable by wealthy liberals).


Interesting responses so let me address them in pieces. To this one, I would say Tesla knew automaking was capital intensive when they launched. As far as the media, Musk has brought much of that on himself. If he was a low key CEO who stayed under the radar and did not embrace altercations with the media, much of this "noise" would cease.

Tesla buyers to date have annual incomes that average above $200,000. Considering most buyers to date reside in CA, it is hard to argue that logic. 



> Electric cars have a built-in price disadvantage with their large battery packs. I think Musk's plan was to help offset that via more automated production in order to make EV's more cost-effective sooner (we have a global emergency on our hands). As he admitted, he miscalculated how much automation could do. We actually need better and more versatile robots but, of course, that takes time too. All automakers make colossal mistakes, particularly when entering new territory. I guess Musk should have spent 5 years working in traditional automaking facilities before attempting to do it better. But that would not have helped his core mission which is to bring electric cars to market sooner, not later. You can sit on the sidelines and coach from the peanut gallery or you can take the bull by the horns and help change the world. I know what type of person I hold more respect for.


If the goal is more cost-effectiveness Musk needs to spend more time in China where you can buy an EV for under $10,000. With a current minimum MSRP of $50,000, Tesla is nowhere near a mass market producer, which is fine in my book. Find a price level that you are comfortable with and "own" it. Once you are profitable in that market then venture into other price points.

Tesla achieved profitablility in a quarter when their only product was the Model S. Then again in 3Q16 when they were now selling two models. But sadly, in the next quarter, they absorbed SolarCity and have been very unprofitable ever since.



> These propaganda pieces have already damaged public perception and reduced the uptake of Model S and Model X vehicles below what they would have been, essentially removing a portion of an important funding mechanism to bring Model 3 to mass production. To say it's all "self-inflicted" is to ignore a lot of obvious evidence staring you right in the face.


Tesla sells 100,000 cars a year priced at no less than $50,000. They are not a threat to anyone. The quickened pace of other manufacturers jumping on the EV bandwagon is a direct result of China imposing NEV minimums starting in 2019 if automakers want to be allowed to continue selling cars and trucks in the largest auto market on the planet. That is a HUGE incentive to go EV.

As you correctly pointed out EVs are still at a price disadvantage. THAT is why the other players have been dragging their feet. Because the mass market buyer is still a payment buyer. An $800 monthly payment (common on Model 3 with 10% down) or higher for Model S and X have a very limited market of buyers. If you read the comments here on TOO most plan to keep their cars for a decade. Many are getting out of cars a decade old. The concern investors have is once the initial pool of buyers is exhausted how many more are there? If every North American order for any version of an LR car can be filled in 3-5 months that is alarming. Assuming Tesla can maintain 5,000 per week, that means the next 100,000 cars (5 months or 20 weeks) will clean out the pipeline leaving just the SR orders to go that Troy's spreadsheet estimates to be a small percentage of the total.


----------



## PNWmisty

summerfun said:


> Interesting responses so let me address them in pieces. To this one, I would say Tesla knew automaking was capital intensive when they launched. As far as the media, Musk has brought much of that on himself. If he was a low key CEO who stayed under the radar and did not embrace altercations with the media, much of this "noise" would cease.
> 
> Tesla buyers to date have annual incomes that average above $200,000. Considering most buyers to date reside in CA, it is hard to argue that logic.
> 
> If the goal is more cost-effectiveness Musk needs to spend more time in China where you can buy an EV for under $10,000. With a current minimum MSRP of $50,000, Tesla is nowhere near a mass market producer, which is fine in my book. Find a price level that you are comfortable with and "own" it. Once you are profitable in that market then venture into other price points.
> 
> Tesla achieved profitablility in a quarter when their only product was the Model S. Then again in 3Q16 when they were now selling two models. But sadly, in the next quarter, they absorbed SolarCity and have been very unprofitable ever since.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> These propaganda pieces have already damaged public perception and reduced the uptake of Model S and Model X vehicles below what they would have been, essentially removing a portion of an important funding mechanism to bring Model 3 to mass production. To say it's all "self-inflicted" is to ignore a lot of obvious evidence staring you right in the face.
> 
> 
> 
> Tesla sells 100,000 cars a year priced at no less than $50,000. They are not a threat to anyone. The quickened pace of other manufacturers jumping on the EV bandwagon is a direct result of China imposing NEV minimums starting in 2019 if automakers want to be allowed to continue selling cars and trucks in the largest auto market on the planet. That is a HUGE incentive to go EV.
> 
> As you correctly pointed out EVs are still at a price disadvantage. THAT is why the other players have been dragging their feet. Because the mass market buyer is still a payment buyer. An $800 monthly payment (common on Model 3 with 10% down) or higher for Model S and X have a very limited market of buyers. If you read the comments here on M3OC most plan to keep their cars for a decade. Many are getting out of cars a decade old. The concern investors have is once the initial pool of buyers is exhausted how many more are there? If every North American order for any version of an LR car can be filled in 3-5 months that is alarming. Assuming Tesla can maintain 5,000 per week, that means the next 100,000 cars (5 months or 20 weeks) will clean out the pipeline leaving just the SR orders to go that Troy's spreadsheet estimates to be a small percentage of the total.
Click to expand...

Wow, for someone who claims to not be short TSLA (directly or via options) you sure use all the same language and talking points as people who are short.

I'm sorry but I just can't agree with almost everything you say (including that you have never invested in TSLA failing).

For the record, I am not long or short.


----------



## summerfun

PNWmisty said:


> Wow, for someone who claims to not be short TSLA (directly or via options) you sure use all the same language and talking points as people who are short.
> 
> I'm sorry but I just can't agree with almost everything you say (including that you have never invested in TSLA failing).
> 
> For the record, I am not long or short.


(HEAVY SIGH...) Why does everyone think that anyone who believes Tesla's share price is too high is automatically rooting for Tesla to fail? I certainly do NOT!. 35,000 jobs, many of them American, are involved for God's sake. I WANT to see Tesla reach sustained profits. Not only will I buy a car once I know the company will survive, but the stock price will auto-level lower once it has a measurable TTM P/E. Over the past decade at different times I held put contracts on GM, F, GE, APPL, and INTC. I made money in most cases and none of them went "out of business" for me to profit. I just had a gut and calculated expectation of the stock price moving lower at a given point in the future. At this time I am long Apple and Ford. (I do not believe in short selling actual shares BTW since the "lender" can pull his shares back at any time.)

Once again there is Musk and his "hater" rhetoric at work and people seem to believe it. Elon just build some great cars. That is all we need. Profits would be nice too.


----------



## Chan B

PNWmisty said:


> Your perspective would carry more weight with me if auto-making wasn't naturally a capital-intensive venture and if the media didn't treat every single Tesla crash as if it were worthy of national coverage on the evening news/webpage front page. It would help if the media didn't propagate misinformation about EV's in general (a large portion of the populous believes EV's are impractical, pollute more than ICE and are only affordable by wealthy liberals).
> 
> Electric cars have a built-in price disadvantage with their large battery packs. I think Musk's plan was to help offset that via more automated production in order to make EV's more cost-effective sooner (we have a global emergency on our hands). As he admitted, he miscalculated how much automation could do. We actually need better and more versatile robots but, of course, that takes time too. All automakers make colossal mistakes, particularly when entering new territory. I guess Musk should have spent 5 years working in traditional automaking facilities before attempting to do it better. But that would not have helped his core mission which is to bring electric cars to market sooner, not later. You can sit on the sidelines and coach from the peanut gallery or you can take the bull by the horns and help change the world.
> 
> I know what type of person I hold more respect for.
> 
> Some wounds are self-inflicted and some are the direct result of barriers erected by interests that feel threatened by a company like Tesla who brings a new business model to the car industry. Look at all the hoops Tesla has to jump through just to sell a car in Texas! Look at the "fake" test drive done by John Broder and published in the NYT:
> 
> https://www.tesla.com/blog/most-peculiar-test-drive
> 
> Then we have the very unflattering teardown of a Model 3 from Monroe and Associates (from Auburn Hills, Michigan). I wonder who paid him to do the teardown, some other company in Michigan? Typically, the customer wants the data collected to be confidential and the contract will have a clause preventing the dissemination of gleaned info to parties that didn't pay for it. Instead, Monroe made a series of YouTube videos and published it for free for all to see.
> 
> These propaganda pieces have already damaged public perception and reduced the uptake of Model S and Model X vehicles below what they would have been, essentially removing a portion of an important funding mechanism to bring Model 3 to mass production. To say it's all "self-inflicted" is to ignore a lot of obvious evidence staring you right in the face.


Wow! Well said both of your comments and yes I do agree with your opinion and facts that you posted but posting here where Elon Musk's reality warping abilities are the highest. isn't the best place. its hard for some people to understand reality vs goals. Tesla is still run as a startup and everything they do is in Beta 1.For now I am hoping for the best for my sake and teslas. FYI this forum is for people who have not yet been invited. there should be a spot for general discussions / arguments.


----------



## PNWmisty

summerfun said:


> Why does everyone think that anyone who believes Tesla's share price is too high is automatically rooting for Tesla to fail?


Ummm, but you never said you thought TSLA share price was too high (until just now).

So, obviously, that's not the reason I gave for thinking you were probably a short (directly or via options). It was because you use the same language and talking points of those who are short.

But Chan B is correct - there are more relevant forums for the discussion this has turned into.


----------



## PNWmisty

c2c said:


> Help me understand why either of you are commenting on this thread?


Why Summertime is commenting here is certainly odd. You can review the conversation to see why I commented. The conversation grew out of Summertime taking exception to an explanation I had offered to someone regarding their reservation.


----------



## summerfun

PNWmisty said:


> Why Summertime is commenting here is certainly odd. You can review the conversation to see why I commented. The conversation grew out of Summertime taking exception to an explanation I had offered to someone regarding their reservation.


I was only addressing a response you made to Andrew Sinclair up above.

_"But, yes, this decision comes with a few casualties which I think were unavoidable. Tesla is literally fighting for their very existence against much larger, stronger sinister forces. I really don't think I'm being overly dramatic here. I think most would agree it would be a sad day indeed if Tesla ran out of cash and was forced to go through a reorganization under bankruptcy law and had their assets acquired by monied interests not aligned to Tesla's core mission." _Your words...not mine.

I am certainly not the only potential U.S. buyer who is watching this forum to see how things are going. Tesla just announced that everyone is now able to configure. By now this thread should be empty or contain just overseas reservation holders. I read this thread to see if that is happening.


----------



## Guy Weathersby

PNWmisty said:


> Some wounds are self-inflicted and some are the direct result of barriers erected by


Replying to the "self inflicted" portion of this argument is a mistake because it implies an implicit acceptance of the premise that Tesla is wounded There are certainly people who have tried to injure T


----------



## Guy Weathersby

Guy Weathersby said:


> Replying to the "self inflicted" portion of this argument is a mistake because it implies an implicit acceptance of the premise that Tesla is wounded There are certainly people who have tried to injure T


Sorry for the partial post I hate this interface.

Testa to my mind is quite healthy. Despite efforts to the contrary.


----------



## Tom Hudson

JWardell said:


> A Solectria? Or some DIY conversion? Very cool!


Yep. A 1997 Solectria Force -- Originally lead-acid, then I had a set of water-cooled Saft NiCDs in there, and about 6 years ago switched to CALB Li-Ion. We also have a 1995 Solectria E-10 pickup (converted Chevy S-10) which we'll be keeping because we use it for our gardening chores here.

The Force has been a very reliable car -- only let us down a couple of times in 20 years (one time the on-board charger died and we had to wait for a replacement, and at end-of-life of the original lead-acid batteries my wife got stuck about half a mile from home).


----------



## summerfun

summerfun said:


> They are just trying to sell the most expensive cars first. More troubling is a report on InsideEVs that says they believe Tesla passed 200k in June. That would mean the full FITC will end on September 30th. Could they really have screwed up that close to Q3?
> 
> Was this the reason for opening the floodgate to configure? It would be hard to believe Tesla would push for non-refundable orders ahead of the news. But the stock has gone from up $22+ to down 3.84?? Something is up for sure.


correction now down $8.50...


----------



## summerfun

NOGA$4ME said:


> The headline says they "believe", but the article itself does not sound quite as convincing. I think they are still in a wait and see and it's too close to call. In my opinion though, if it's too close to call, then that would certainly indicate that Tesla, knowing the exact numbers, would probably not go over in the last week of June. Either they are WAY over and decided to go full steam ahead from 6/27 on (scheduling insta-deliveries), or they know exactly what they are doing and nudged right up to 199,900+.


Then any idea what is going on with the stock? In three hours it has gone from $364 to $333


----------



## NOGA$4ME

summerfun said:


> Then any idea what is going on with the stock? In three hours it has gone from $364 to $333


Who knows...TSLA is a pretty volatile stock and almost no matter what kind of good news end of quarter production reports brings it tends to go down due to some kind of bear thesis. The only concrete thing I've been able to find in the mainstream news was that the stock was downgraded to a sell because they consider the 5K a burst rate and don't feel it's sustainable in the near term. Looking forward to seeing Elon prove them wrong (although it is likely that production THIS week is going to take a hit after the all out push and it being a holiday week).

The timing of the 5K/week worked out exactly as I figured it would...only on the very last day (technically not even...) whereas I think most people hear "5K/week by the end of 2Q" and figure that means that 5K/week is going to be for the whole month of June.

I would be lying if I didn't say I wasn't concerned about their ability to increase that much. I haven't heard of any more "magic bullets" that are going to give them big incremental increases in production and that gains from here on out are going to be harder to come by (i.e. they are in the tail-off portion of the S curve). It's not quite so much the tailing off that is concerning, but rather the fact that they had to add a third shift (or switch to AWS 12-hour shifts or whatever they did) that they weren't originally planning on. At some point they believed they could hit 5K/week without that, so did that turn out to be not true, or will they be able to increase to 7500/week with the shift adjustments? It will be interesting to see where they go from here and whether they can actually hit that 6K week at the end of July.


----------



## Nikola

Why the drop in stock price despite the big 5k milestone? Generally declining stock market today, reacting to fears caused by the tariff war. Also, bears are still claiming Tesla can't sustain the 5k/week production rate, and they're moving on to the next issues in their list: margins and debt, both of which affect overall operating income.

This "contrarian" talk won't go away anytime soon. Tesla still has a lot of growing up to do. Patience ... don't sweat the daily price swings.


----------



## PNWmisty

summerfun said:


> Then any idea what is going on with the stock? In three hours it has gone from $364 to $333


Actually, $364 is more "up" from Friday's close than $333 is "down".

Why do you always bring TSLA share price into conversations having nothing to do with TSLA share price? Oh, that's right, you have bearish TSLA options!


----------



## slacker775

PNWmisty said:


> Actually, $364 is more "up" from Friday's close than $333 is "down".
> 
> Why do you always bring TSLA share price into conversations having nothing to do with TSLA share price? Oh, that's right, you have bearish TSLA options!


As someone that's long TSLA, the drop is not unexpected. The stock broke out this morning, and then folks are going to try to sell high based on various analysts recommendations. While there is legitimate concern regarding Tesla's long-term health - as there would be any young company, especially one that has a major manufacturing component vs a software company where everything is 'virtual' - I just roll through the choppiness. It may very well end the day down, but then it will start another run up over the next days/weeks. I see the same behavior with Apple stock, where after a quarterly call with record profits and iPhones sold, the stock will tank the next day. That's people jumping out while the getting is good. Happens every time and there just shouldn't be too much emphasis put on it.


----------



## jsmay311

summerfun said:


> Then any idea what is going on with the stock? In three hours it has gone from $364 to $333


Tesla stock downgraded to sell from hold at CFRA

Tesla downgraded to sell by CFRA, which predicts Model 3 production rate is not 'sustainable'


----------



## PNWmisty

summerfun said:


> correction now down $8.50...


Why do you keep bring TSLA stock price into discussions having nothing to do with TSLA stock price?

Oh, that's right, I forgot, you are short Tesla via options!


----------



## PNWmisty

summerfun said:


> I am sure I am not the only one waiting to place a reservation until I know the full FITC will be around thru year end.


Why would you place an order for a car from a company that you're short (via bearish options)? That makes no sense.


----------



## summerfun

PNWmisty said:


> Why would you place an order for a car from a company that you're short (via bearish options)? That makes no sense.


LOL! Can I quote you on that?

I have had put options multiple times on Apple and GM in the last decade. It certainly did not stop me from buying iPhones, two iPads, or my multiple Chevy diesel crew cab trucks for my business! Why do the two need to be related? Trust me, when Tesla stock is down to double digits again I will be buying like crazy!


----------



## PNWmisty

summerfun said:


> LOL! Can I quote you on that?
> 
> I have had put options multiple times on Apple and GM in the last decade. It certainly did not stop me from buying iPhones, two iPads, or my multiple Chevy diesel crew cab trucks for my business! Why do the two need to be related? Trust me, when Tesla stock is down to double digits again I will be buying like crazy!


Well, it's good to know you finally came clean on your bearish Tesla options. It can be considered deceptive to hide that fact while talking the stock down.


----------



## RMMD

RMMD said:


> My experience with delivery...
> My original delivery date was July 2nd.
> Received a call from local Tesla on 28th , They said found an issue and moved the delivery date to July 6th.
> Received a call on 29th at 12.30 and said car is ready for pick up , Picked up at 3.30. Over all experience during delivery was fantastic, other than found some minor scratches..
> 
> Parked the car at my garage and left for vacation. came back on Sunday morning spent some time inside the car in parking mode ..about to start my trip then suddenly error message came on the screen 'car needs service" every thing stopped working. could not start the car..
> 
> called Tesla road side assistance , with his help rebooted couple of times.. still did not resolve. Finally he said car needs to be towed to local service center may be fault with high voltage battery.. he scheduled a tow truck for Monday morning..
> 
> As of now I am disappointed with the car quality .. $60k car broke down after just 20 miles.... They should have focused on quality not number of cars per week...


Safety concerns with model 3. There is no way you can come out from inside the car if there is an issue with high voltage battery all doors will lock from inside and outside.. this happened to my tow guy this morning .
Another tow truck has to come and unlock the car with jump start.. luckily my kids and family is not inside the car .. imagine if this happens on the road..


----------



## Sjohnson20

RMMD said:


> Safety concerns with model 3. There is no way you can come out from inside the car if there is an issue with high voltage battery all doors will lock from inside and outside.. this happened to my tow guy this morning .
> Another tow truck has to come and unlock the car with jump start.. luckily my kids and family is not inside the car .. imagine if this happens on the road..


Isn't there a manual override if you are inside? I think I remember someone saying their are door handles that you only use in an emergency inside the car.


----------



## JWardell

RMMD said:


> Safety concerns with model 3. There is no way you can come out from inside the car if there is an issue with high voltage battery all doors will lock from inside and outside.. this happened to my tow guy this morning .
> Another tow truck has to come and unlock the car with jump start.. luckily my kids and family is not inside the car .. imagine if this happens on the road..


There is no way that is true. A high voltage fault will disconnect the high voltage battery. The 12v system will continue to operate, but as we know the 12v battery does not last that long. Once that gets too low you probably can't pop the doors electronically. There's no way the car would ever lock an occupant inside intentionally, and this is why you have a mechanical release as well.


----------



## PNWmisty

RMMD said:


> Safety concerns with model 3. There is no way you can come out from inside the car if there is an issue with high voltage battery all doors will lock from inside and outside.. this happened to my tow guy this morning .
> Another tow truck has to come and unlock the car with jump start.. luckily my kids and family is not inside the car .. imagine if this happens on the road..


LOL! Short much?

The Model 3 has two manual (non-electric) door releases in case of accident or complete loss of power. Your FUD is not going to fly anywhere where people have real-world experience with the car.

Take your fairy tales over to Seeking Alpha where you will have a more receptive audience. Those people will believe anything (as long as it's negative).


----------



## summerfun

PNWmisty said:


> Well, it's good to know you finally came clean on your bearish Tesla options. It can be considered deceptive to hide that fact while talking the stock down.


At this time we are holding put options on 13 companies. I still do not understand what that has to do with Tesla's Model 3? (Which I happen to like and think will be the hottest $35k car on the road once people can order the SR battery). I still want to test drive one before configuration.

But for anyone who can read, the owner satisfaction with the Model 3 seems off the charts. So if someone is ready to make the leap to a BEV, it seems a no-brainer. I would still like an FCEV as a true zero emissions car, (using a solar array-powered SmartFuel hydrogen processor) but it will be a while before we see those cars in Florida. None of the current designs for FCEVs "wow" me anyway.

So I will take an MSM, SR, RWD, 19", PUP... Once people can buy them...


----------



## PNWmisty

summerfun said:


> So I will take an MSM, SR, RWD, 19", PUP... Once people can buy them...


Why don't you just get the Long Range? More convenient, more power, better resale and the battery pack should last virtually forever with less intensive cycling. It's really a no-brainer with no downside. Of course, the additional $9K might be the issue once your puts expire worthless.


----------



## JWardell

PNWmisty said:


> LOL! Short much?
> 
> The Model 3 has two manual (non-electric) door releases in case of accident or complete loss of power. Your FUD is not going to fly anywhere where people have real-world experience with the car.
> 
> Take your fairy tales over to Seeking Alpha where you will have a more receptive audience. Those people will believe anything (as long as it's negative).


I think he's just frustrated with the very unfortunate experience of having his car die on him right after delivery, when we are all most vulnerable.
I hope they have it back to him ASAP


----------



## summerfun

PNWmisty said:


> Why don't you just get the Long Range? More convenient, more power, better resale and the battery pack should last virtually forever with less intensive cycling. It's really a no-brainer with no downside. Of course, the additional $9K might be the issue once your puts expire worthless.


The truth is I really just don't need the extra range. From my house to my office across the street from the Tesla service center is 18 miles. Including side trips around town, I could probably go all week on one charge. I'd rather use the extra $9,000 to buy PUP and put $4,000 towards my new JD yard tractor.

I'm not so sure about resale. Most people I talk to with EVs now use them as commuter cars. Even those with Volts are not bothered by the low, 53 mile range on batteries. So the demand for the smaller battery pack could be better in the future. Model 3 SR with PUP, would have 4 times the range of the Volt at the same price as the loaded Premier version. That's strong! What Tesla really needs to be competitive is a lease program.


----------



## PNWmisty

summerfun said:


> The truth is I really just don't need the extra distance. From my house to my office across the street from the Tesla service center is 18 miles. Including side trips around town, I could probably go all week on one charge. I'd rather use the extra $9,000 to buy PUP and put $4,000 towards my new JD yard tractor.


It's very convenient to have the extra range for trips, etc. It reduces the time charging, not only because it goes farther but it also charges faster. Well worth it.


----------



## NOGA$4ME

summerfun said:


> The truth is I really just don't need the extra range. From my house to my office across the street from the Tesla service center is 18 miles. Including side trips around town, I could probably go all week on one charge. I'd rather use the extra $9,000 to buy PUP and put $4,000 towards my new JD yard tractor.
> 
> I'm not so sure about resale. Most people I talk to with EVs now use them as commuter cars. Even those with Volts are not bothered by the low, 53 mile range on batteries. So the demand for the smaller battery pack could be better in the future. Model 3 SR with PUP, would have 4 times the range of the Volt at the same price as the loaded Premier version. That's strong!


It's certainly getting off topic, but I'm confused about your desire to get a FCEV if you don't need the range. *The* primary benefit of a FCEV is fast "refuel". If you're not going to need the range, why go to the bother of having to have a solar system 3X larger than it would have to be to generate hydrogen for your FCEV than it would be to just charge your BEV?


----------



## summerfun

PNWmisty said:


> I'm not sure that's a good comparison.
> 
> When Detroit has a car this hot, their dealers mark them up way above MSRP. Way above. On a car this hot you could expect to pay $10-$20K above MSRP if you actually wanted one right away.
> 
> Be thankful Tesla is not like that!


LOL... Tesla can't be like that because they ARE the manufacturer. They can't charge above the MSRP they established.


----------



## tivoboy

PNWmisty said:


> Why would you place an order for a car from a company that you're short (via bearish options)? That makes no sense.


I'm short by selling July calls (sold july 330 calls for 30$) against my position (SA250$) and I bought a model 3. Market cap and enterprise life span can be different.


----------



## summerfun

PNWmisty said:


> LOL! Short much?
> 
> The Model 3 has two manual (non-electric) door releases in case of accident or complete loss of power. Your FUD is not going to fly anywhere where people have real-world experience with the car.
> 
> Take your fairy tales over to Seeking Alpha where you will have a more receptive audience. Those people will believe anything (as long as it's negative).


I think it is time you got off your high horse and knocked off the snarky comments!

The guy just took delivery of his car. Did you ever stop to think that maybe in his rushed delivery presentation, no one bothered to show him where the release was? He is not the first person to report this. Some cars sat for a while before shipment. A dead 12V battery is not unlikely in that case. Cars go dead on dealer lots all the time if they are not driven. And I am talking brand new cars.


----------



## RMMD

PNWmisty said:


> LOL! Short much?
> 
> The Model 3 has two manual (non-electric) door releases in case of accident or complete loss of power. Your FUD is not going to fly anywhere where people have real-world experience with the car.
> 
> Take your fairy tales over to Seeking Alpha where you will have a more receptive audience. Those people will believe anything (as long as it's negative).





JWardell said:


> I think he's just frustrated with the very unfortunate experience of having his car die on him right after delivery, when we are all most vulnerable.
> I hope they have it back to him ASAP


Thanks for the info about manual latch, Tesla customer customer service should have guided properly when the tow truck guy called them from inside the car. situation was horrible in the morning., may be Tesla should have trained tow truck guy and buyers in these situations. My car is still at service center they could not identify the problem today.


----------



## RMMD

PNWmisty said:


> LOL! Short much?
> 
> The Model 3 has two manual (non-electric) door releases in case of accident or complete loss of power. Your FUD is not going to fly anywhere where people have real-world experience with the car.
> 
> Take your fairy tales over to Seeking Alpha where you will have a more receptive audience. Those people will believe anything (as long as it's negative).


Do you think all Tesla customer service people, tow truck guys and model 3 owners know about manual latch and how to handle situation happened to us today? Tesla support page should have a short video.


----------



## summerfun

NOGA$4ME said:


> It's certainly getting off topic, but I'm confused about your desire to get a FCEV if you don't need the range. *The* primary benefit of a FCEV is fast "refuel". If you're not going to need the range, why go to the bother of having to have a solar system 3X larger than it would have to be to generate hydrogen for your FCEV than it would be to just charge your BEV?


You are thinking the big units in CA. The SImpleFuel units take about an hour to fill a car with 5Kg using a much smaller solar system. Using a solar array during the day would not require storage batteries because hydrogen has a virtually unlimited storage life. To me, this is a true zero emission arrangement. Here in FL, my utility uses Nat Gas to power the plants. So fossil fuels would still power a BEV, just further upstream or I would have to buy storage batteries. But as I said, no one is building an attractive FCEV yet so a Model 3 is the preferred choice.


----------



## summerfun

c2c said:


> Summertime, you don't have a Model 3 reservation.
> PNWmisty, you have your Model 3.
> By definition, neither of you are in line for an invitation.
> Help me understand why either of you are commenting on this thread?


As we are now seeing, for many people, giving Tesla a $1,000 interest-free loan for two years got them nothing in return. So now I am patiently waiting for Tesla to roll out the SR. Once they do, I will be happy to fork over the reservation fee. Until then, that $1,000 is being put to work making me money. If you notice, the title of this thread is for the "not yet invited". I am one of those.


----------



## Smcolbert

RMMD said:


> Do you think all Tesla customer service people, tow truck guys and model 3 owners know about manual latch and how to handle situation happened to us today? Tesla support page should have a short video.


I did not know


----------



## PNWmisty

summerfun said:


> If you notice, the title of this thread is for the "not yet invited". I am one of those.


You will NEVER be invited (you need a reservation to get an invite). You are in the same boat as the other 7 billion people on planet earth without a reservation who will not get an invite.


----------



## ChicagoAwd3

summerfun said:


> As we are now seeing, for many people, giving Tesla a $1,000 interest-free loan for two years got them nothing in return. So now I am patiently waiting for Tesla to roll out the SR. Once they do, I will be happy to fork over the reservation fee. Until then, that $1,000 is being put to work making me money. If you notice, the title of this thread is for the "not yet invited". I am one of those.


The $1000 is not an interest free loan. Tesla can't use that money.


----------



## summerfun

Joseph Mullan said:


> The $1000 is not an interest free loan. Tesla can't use that money.


Read the reservation agreement. The money is NOT escrowed in any way.


----------



## KarenRei

Summerfun is correct. This is BTW one of the things I found admirable about Aptera back in the day - they actually did escrow their deposits.

Admirable, although perhaps not the best business decision  But I think it's more important for a startup, which needs to prove it's not a Ponzi scheme, to avoid any questions as to whether they're just funding themselves on customer deposits.


----------



## RICK M

Hello to all. I canceled my reservation after two years waiting, and I'm happy to say that I purchased a used Model S 85 with free supercharging for life and a host of other features. I will be picking it up on Friday. .I'm fortunate in the fact that the car is in pristine condition, only has 25,000 miles on it. Good luck to all !


----------



## Drhalo

JWardell said:


> I actually hope some vinyl folks offer some Model 3 specific DIY kits.
> 
> You can buy direct from XPel, but it's almost as expensive as getting it installed.
> 
> I would like to add a bit myself to the rear bumper and behind the rear wheels.
> 
> I've applied PPF to headlights on a few cars, and that's very easy to DIY. It's curves and edges that take skill.
> 
> You can certainly get rolls and cut yourself...search eBay for paint protection sheet.
> 
> I'm sure Kenriko is tired of me paging him, but someone with vinyl cutting equipment could easily make and sell aftermarket kits


JWardell, where did you get the hat in your signature?


----------



## Love

Will M said:


> Can you link to that video? I'd like to see it.
> 
> I did email service and they said they want to see the car, but I explained it was a 3 hour drive for me to bring it Westmont and that unless it was urgent, I would prefer to wait until I bring the car in November for paint repairs from delivery. They agreed.


Sure thing. Here is the battery louvre's video. It's short, the microphone on my phone was picking up some odd clicking feedback too so that's annoying. I think a few of us had this but it went away with an update some time ago.





There was also the center console noise/rattle. They fixed this easily, said something was a little loose.





@MountainPass said it 100% accurately here https://teslaownersonline.com/threads/damaged-brake-springs.8544/#post-146672, there's no engine so we hear everything. I also am "blessed" with the ears of my mother, so I find any little out of place noise to be grating!! I'll get better when I'm older...right?


----------



## Karl Sun

Ed Woodrick said:


> Let's do another calculation with your electric bill. 400kWh * about $0.15 = $60
> $60 for 1,017 miles isn't worth worrying over, is it?
> 
> 1017mi / 20 mpg * $3 /gal = $150 for an ICE..


 Not sure what kind of ICE you're comparing to (80's era?) but what actually gets as low as 20MPG on petrol?

My Prius C reliably gets 60+ in-town and runs just fine on 87 octane, which costs ~2.25-$2.50 here. That 1017 miles / 60 MPG * $2.5 = $42.38. Which is MUCH less than the elec bill over the same distance for the M3.

Just sayin'!


----------



## PNWmisty

Karl Sun said:


> Not sure what kind of ICE you're comparing to (80's era?) but what actually gets as low as 20MPG on petrol?


2018 BMW M3. It requires premium gasoline and the Tesla Model 3 will still smoke it for lunch:
https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/noframes/38974.shtml

My wife replaced her Volvo S80 sedan with a Model 3 and it only got 23 mpg overall. It required premium also.


----------



## Karl Sun

PNWmisty said:


> 2018 BMW M3. It requires premium gasoline and the Tesla Model 3 will still smoke it for lunch:
> https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/noframes/38974.shtml
> 
> My wife replaced her Volvo S80 sedan with a Model 3 and it only got 23 mpg overall. It required premium also.


 Those are outlier as the Chevy Suburban and McLaren MP4/12C get 30 MPG.

The McLaren will smoke the M3 all day and evening long.

All I'm saying is that the Model3 IS NOT an economy car. Not to mention the M3 is 3.8x the cost of the Prius C.


----------



## Ron L

Karl Sun said:


> Those are outlier as the Chevy Suburban and McLaren MP4/12C get 30 MPG.
> 
> The McLaren will smoke the M3 all day and evening long.
> 
> All I'm saying is that the Model3 IS NOT an economy car. Not to mention the M3 is 3.8x the cost of the Prius C.


And that McLaren costs how much? LOL


----------



## MelindaV

Karl Sun said:


> Not sure what kind of ICE you're comparing to (80's era?) but what actually gets as low as 20MPG on petrol?


sports cars. the car I traded in, which was NOT from the 80s, generally got 19-22 on a daily basis. not everything gets 35mpg.


----------



## PNWmisty

Karl Sun said:


> Those are outlier as the Chevy Suburban and McLaren MP4/12C get 30 MPG.
> 
> The McLaren will smoke the M3 all day and evening long.


What? The McLaren MP4/12C only gets 15/22 MPG (and good luck getting that)!

The Chevrolet Suburban is rated the same (15/22 mpg). So I don't know where you are getting 30 mpg. And for $230,000, the base model McLaren MP4/12C had BETTER smoke the Tesla! Or people are going to wonder what McLaren is smoking!


----------



## Ed Woodrick

Karl Sun said:


> Not sure what kind of ICE you're comparing to (80's era?) but what actually gets as low as 20MPG on petrol?
> 
> My Prius C reliably gets 60+ in-town and runs just fine on 87 octane, which costs ~2.25-$2.50 here. That 1017 miles / 60 MPG * $2.5 = $42.38. Which is MUCH less than the elec bill over the same distance for the M3.
> 
> Just sayin'!


Yea, and I just took a 1600 mile trip that cost me $36. I was listing the worse case type numbers. Oh, and did you forget to add the oil changes and maintenance costs of the engine in the Prius?


----------



## garsh

Karl Sun said:


> Not sure what kind of ICE you're comparing to (80's era?) but what actually gets as low as 20MPG on petrol?


A plain old, run-of-the-mill Honda Odyssey. The kind of soccer-mom car that you see all over the place.

I owned a 2009 version until we replaced it with the Tucson. On the highway, I would get about 25 mpg, and approach 30 mpg if I hypermiled it. But for the around-town driving that my wife normally performed with that vehicle, we were lucky to break 20 mpg.


----------



## ADK46

We sold a Prius to make room for the Tesla. At prevailing electric and gasoline prices, energy cost favors the Tesla, but not by much, about $10/month. But guys are coming tomorrow to install another 16 PV panels to account for the Tesla. Still not a huge difference in costs, really, but it means I don't have to drive the Tesla like the Prius.

Yes, I know, it's all grid tied, so our excess power could go elsewhere and help save the planet. I'll try to keep it under 300 Wh/mile. 

What was the question? Oh - the apparent difference between the "meter" in the car and the power company meter. Seems too big to shrug off - keep investigating.


----------



## Karl Sun

Ron L said:


> And that McLaren costs how much? LOL


 Not making them new anymore (2014 was last year, iirc). Previously-owned ones are selling for $100-170K.


Ron L said:


> And that McLaren costs how much? LOL


 Not as much as you are thinking.

Mclaren costs (note 2014 was most recent year new) $114,900.00 BIN:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/MP4-12C-Coupe/132807226112?hash=item1eebed7300:g:KiIAAOSwb-Rbtk-3&vxp=mtr

$145K:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/MP4-12C/362449878993?hash=item5463b23fd1:g:sMsAAOSwk35btRjk&vxp=mtr

About the same - previously owned - as some Model S P100Ds:
BIN $81,000.00:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/2017-Tesla...ash=item1eebdd3633:g:dykAAOSwLEVbm-89&vxp=mtr

BIN $125,000.00
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Tesla-Mode...ash=item4b473c5859:g:tc0AAOSwBfRbI-yB&vxp=mtr


----------



## Karl Sun

PNWmisty said:


> What? The McLaren MP4/12C only gets 15/22 MPG (and good luck getting that)!
> 
> The Chevrolet Suburban is rated the same (15/22 mpg). So I don't know where you are getting 30 mpg. And for $230,000, the base model McLaren MP4/12C had BETTER smoke the Tesla! Or people are going to wonder what McLaren is smoking!


What's it RATED at and what it actually gets are different. I have personal experience driving one from LA to Willcox in AZ. 30.8MPG overall (all highway).

McLaren MP4-12C getting 30 mpg:
https://www.mclarenlife.com/forums/mclaren-mp4-12c/9649-fuel-consumption.html


----------



## Karl Sun

Ed Woodrick said:


> Yea, and I just took a 1600 mile trip that cost me $36. I was listing the worse case type numbers. Oh, and did you forget to add the oil changes and maintenance costs of the engine in the Prius?


 Nope. didn't forget. The Tesla still costs more in maintenance. Allow me to detail it for you:

Prius "Maintenance:
- All maintenance (tyre rotations, fluid changes, etc.) for two years included with vehicle. No servicing included with Mdl3.
- Wiper blades (random)
- Oil/filter change (done once by me!):
- every 10K miles. 5Qts at Walmart of Mobil1 0/20 = $28, filter = $4.00. Engine takes 4 qts so oil/filter change is $26.40. Paying someone else to do it comes all the way up to $50.
- Change brake fluid every two years (NOT part of factory included maintenance)
- Change coolant every 5 years (not there yet). Easy process I can do myself. $15 in coolant.
- No serp or v-belts
- Tyre rotations every 5K (free at Discount Auto, or do it myself)
- Brakes? After 160K on my earlier Prius the front pads had worn from initial 10.2mm thickness to all of 9.2mm (wear limit 3mm). At least another 200K before front pads need replacement.
- Tires (Goodyear Assurance, LRR - $116.96/each) - supposedly good for 65K miles)
- Cabin air filter yearly ($4-9)
- FIRST spark plug change at 100K miles. $10.
- Engine air filter at 60K miles ($5)

Tesla Maintenance:
- Tyre rotations every 6250 miles. Didn't I read somewhere that someone here paid >$100 at a SC for tyre rotation??
- [Battery] Coolant change every 4 years. Tesla recommends SC only ?? Owners manual indicates to never take the coolant cap off. Predicted costs?? Nothing yet published on service costs from Tesla for Mdl3.
- Brake fluid every 2 years
- Wiper blades [as needed]
- Tires (Mich MXM4 - $276.97/each - supposedly good to 55K miles ??)
- Rear differential oil filter ( chg interval not known) $60
- Cabin air filter yearly $45

Toyota on-line service manual access $480 for "Standard", $1295/year for the Professional versionversion. Tesla on-line service information (for the S and X - 3 not shown) costs $5K per year.

Prius cost, new: $20,122.15 OTD
Tesla cost, new: $63,353.20 OTD

I fail to see how the Tesla has a lower maintenance cost. One new set of tyres in four years completely destroys that idea.


----------



## PNWmisty

Karl Sun said:


> What's it RATED at and what it actually gets are different. I have personal experience driving one form LA to Willcox in AZ. 30.8MPG overall (all highway).
> 
> McLaren MP4-12C getting 30 mpg:
> https://www.mclarenlife.com/forums/mclaren-mp4-12c/9649-fuel-consumption.html


Well, we've been tackling this global warming problem all wrong then! We don't need more EV's, we need more McLaren MP4-12C's and Chevrolet Suburbans.

Yeah, that's the ticket! Because the V12 in the McLaren is misrated by the EPA! So is the V8 in the little, aerodynamic Suburban! These are actually marvels of efficiency but the EPA is corrupt and rates them at 15/22mpg when they ACTUALLY get over 30 MPG!

I learn something new on the Internet every day!


----------



## Karl Sun

garsh said:


> A plain old, run-of-the-mill Honda Odyssey. The kind of soccer-mom car that you see all over the place.
> 
> I owned a 2009 version until we replaced it with the Tucson. On the highway, I would get about 25 mpg, and approach 30 mpg if I hypermiled it. But for the around-town driving that my wife normally performed with that vehicle, we were lucky to break 20 mpg.


 The assorted hybrids usually do much better with in-town driving than highway.


----------



## mdfraz

I can speak only to the tire rotation. Yes, someone said they paid $140 at a SC, but I took it to a regular shop and they did it for under $30, tax included.


----------



## Karl Sun

PNWmisty said:


> Well, we've been tackling this global warming problem all wrong then! We don't need more EV's, we need more McLaren MP4-12C's and Chevrolet Suburbans.
> 
> Yeah, that's the ticket! Because the V12 in the McLaren is misrated by the EPA! So is the V8 in the little, aerodynamic Suburban! These are actually marvels of efficiency but the EPA is corrupt and rates them at 15/22mpg when they ACTUALLY get over 30 MPG!
> 
> I learn something new on the Internet every day!


 Ahh, sarcasm.

BTW - the McLaren MP4-12c contains a turbo'd 3.8L v-ate.

If EPA really wanted to improve air quality, they'd make petrol $10+ a gallon. And use some of the extra income to fix the roads. THAT would do more to increase usage of EVs than everything else combined. We can all dream, right?


----------



## John Slaby

Pulled in to the local supercharger to get the battery topped off this morning.








Note the low center of gravity as a result of the skateboard design of this wireless charger.


----------



## JWardell

John Slaby said:


> Pulled in to the local supercharger to get the battery topped off this morning.
> View attachment 16874
> 
> Note the low center of gravity as a result of the skateboard design of this wireless charger.


Ha!
Would you mind answering a question I've had: Is the wireless charger too thick to comfortably keep in a jeans pocket along with a phone that it is currently charging?
I was considering replacing my Anker slim charger with it, but it looks a lot thicker than a phone.


----------



## John Slaby

JWardell said:


> Ha!
> Would you mind answering a question I've had: Is the wireless charger too thick to comfortably keep in a jeans pocket along with a phone that it is currently charging?
> I was considering replacing my Anker slim charger with it, but it looks a lot thicker than a phone.


I think it would be uncomfortable. It's almost 3 times as thick as my Pixel 3 (which is thin, mind you) but that would add a lot of bulk to your pocket.


----------



## FRC

Where have the short-sellers gone?
Long time shorting
Where have the short-sellers gone?
Not so long ago.

Where have the short-sellers gone?
Turned to paupers every one.
When will they ever learn?
When will they ever learn?


----------



## kort677

JWardell said:


> I admit here in the Northeast folks are much more rushed and impatient. This probably doesn't apply to calmer areas.


I believe that there is a specific term used in your area, is it MASSholes?


----------



## JWardell

kort677 said:


> I believe that there is a specific term used in your area, is it MASSholes?


Yes, and we wear it proudly!


----------



## kort677

JWardell said:


> Yes, and we wear it proudly!


therein lies the problem, too many massholes in one place rarely works well, what is too many? 1


----------



## JWardell

kort677 said:


> therein lies the problem, too many massholes in one place rarely works well, what is too many? 1


Actually it's like clockwork. Amazing to experience Storrow drive moving at twice the speed limit with cars packed feet from each other in the morning. Then the tourists arrive on the weekend and it crawls


----------



## rxlawdude

TrevP said:


> 3M tape probably got brittle from the cold or wasn't stuck on properly. I'm a big fan of this plate bracket:
> 
> https://evannex.com/products/the-law-license-plate-bracket-for-tesla-model-3


This is rather a shameless promotion of one of your advertisers, no? Any problem with the OEM solution by Tesla seems to me to be on Tesla to make right, for free.


----------



## garsh

rxlawdude said:


> This is rather a shameless promotion of one of your advertisers, no?


Wow. So Trev's not allowed to talk about or recommend products made by forum sponsors?


> Any problem with the OEM solution by Tesla seems to me to be on Tesla to make right, for free.


And it sounds like Tesla is fixing it for him. But for anybody who doesn't trust the 3m taped bracket, there are other solutions.


----------



## rxlawdude

garsh said:


> Wow. So Trev's not allowed to talk about or recommend products made by forum sponsors?And it sounds like Tesla is fixing it for him. But for anybody who doesn't trust the 3m taped bracket, there are other solutions.


Did I say he's not allowed? No. Does it seem self-serving? Yep.


----------



## PNWmisty

Lovesword said:


> My battery louvre video on YouTube is my most watched BY FAR!!!


Yes, and if TSLA short-sellers could award video Oscars, you would have one for sure! 

The reason that video is so popular is that it gets endlessly publicized and linked to by the TSLA shorts!


----------



## garsh

PNWmisty said:


> The reason that video is so popular is that it gets endlessly publicized and linked to by the TSLA shorts!


Does it really? It only has 800 views, no ratings, and no comments.


----------



## PNWmisty

garsh said:


> Does it really? It only has 800 views, no ratings, and no comments.


My mistake, this is the one I've seen shorts link to:


----------



## Love

garsh said:


> Does it really? It only has 800 views, no ratings, and no comments.


ONLY? C'mon man, it's my most viewed video! Even with my (what I feel is) AWESOME garage project which I had high hopes would propel me to my 15 minutes of fame.


----------



## @gravityrydr

webdriverguy00 said:


> Well someone said to keep the heat on for electric car for 1 hr thats not right. If EVs heat up quickly then why would you waste energy running the heat for 1hr? If you have the option to plugin always run cabin heat before leaving for 15-25 mins/ set your charging schedule go finish when your about to leave.
> 
> If people with ICE cars are running their cars for 45 mins that's absurd again. Even my 7 plus year Honda only takes 15 mins for cabin heat to come on when driving on freeway.


If you don't like the advice you are getting then calm down do your own thing and report back if you find out something better. I'm sure we'd all like to hear about it.


----------



## webdriverguy

@gravityrydr said:


> If you don't like the advice you are getting then calm down do your own thing and report back if you find out something better. I'm sure we'd all like to hear about it.


Feel free to disagree man. I don't think I said anything that demands calming down.


----------



## PNWmisty

MelindaV said:


> but the 'rated' 310 miles is likely based on 55-60MPH speeds.


The rated range is based on a mix of city and highway driving but the topic was the speed at which "optimum" range occurs.


----------



## garsh

PNWmisty said:


> The rated range is based on a mix of city and highway driving but the topic was the speed at which "optimum" range occurs.


The topic was if the high consumption that dschiff was seeing is normal. The car shows 310 miles on a full charge. Melinda is just explaining that in order to actually get that range from your car, a speed around 55-60 mph will be necessary. You're not going to get it when you're driving 80 mph.


----------



## PNWmisty

garsh said:


> The topic was if the high consumption that dschiff was seeing is normal.


Haha, yes, that was the topic of the original post but it was not ambiguous that I was responding directly to Rdwrrr who wrote:



Rdwrrr said:


> I read somewhere that we get optimum range around 55-65 mph.


We know that "optimum range" is well below 55-65 mph on all versions of the Model 3. In fact, there is not an EV available that gets optimum range at speeds that high. The "rated range" is a different beast and is not based on speeds of 55-60 mph as Melinda said, it is based upon a well-defined drive cycle, a mix of city and highway driving. The city drive cycle actually boosts the overall range of 310 miles higher than it would be if it were based entirely upon the highway drive cycle. There are many ways to achieve the 310-mile range but, as @SR22pilot so accurately pointed out, the range will vary quite a bit depending upon many factors including which version of the Model 3 the OP has.


----------



## garsh

PNWmisty said:


> The "rated range" is a different beast and is not based on speeds of 55-60 mph as Melinda said, it is based upon a well-defined drive cycle, a mix of city and highway driving.


First, Melinda's assertion that your highway speed should be around 60mph in order to get close to the 310 mile range is correct. I don't understand why you say it is not, and keep bringing up the EPA rating. We're not talking about the EPA - we're talking about the range that the car itself reports on a full battery. If you want to actually approach that range, you need to adjust your driving style.

As for the 310 mile EPA rating, we've had a few very detailed threads on this subject in the past when the rating first came out (like this one). Yes, the car is driven on two well-defined drive cycles, repeated until battery depletion. And the average of those two drive cycles was... 477 miles. The standard thing to do with that number is to multiply by 0.7, which then gives you a rating of 334 miles. At that point, Tesla simply asked the EPA if it would be OK if they just advertised 310 miles, and the EPA permitted it. So while everything starts off with a nice well-defined testing regiment, in the end the final EPA rating doesn't have much to do with the testing - the testing basically sets a rough upper bound. And I say rough upper bound, because it turns out that the AWD version of the Model 3 ended up scoring 307 miles, and the EPA once again allowed Tesla to "tweak" the advertised value to 310 miles.


----------



## SR22pilot

garsh said:


> First, Melinda's assertion that your highway speed should be around 60mph in order to get close to the 310 mile range is correct. I don't understand why you say it is not, and keep bringing up the EPA rating. We're not talking about the EPA - we're talking about the range that the car itself reports on a full battery. If you want to actually approach that range, you need to adjust your driving style.
> 
> As for the 310 mile EPA rating, we've had a few very detailed threads on this subject in the past when the rating first came out (like this one). Yes, the car is driven on two well-defined drive cycles, repeated until battery depletion. And the average of those two drive cycles was... 477 miles. The standard thing to do with that number is to multiply by 0.7, which then gives you a rating of 334 miles. At that point, Tesla simply asked the EPA if it would be OK if they just advertised 310 miles, and the EPA permitted it. So while everything starts off with a nice well-defined testing regiment, in the end the final EPA rating doesn't have much to do with the testing - the testing basically sets a rough upper bound. And I say rough upper bound, because it turns out that the AWD version of the Model 3 ended up scoring 307 miles, and the EPA once again allowed Tesla to "tweak" the advertised value to 310 miles.


This range is with 18" rims with the Aero covers. Rolling resistance plays a big part in range. Going to higher performance tires and less aerodynamic rims hits range pretty hard. That 307 you mention becomes more like 276 with 19" rims and the Continentals. The car will handle better with the Continentals but the range will suffer. I rarely see 250 WH/mile.


----------



## PNWmisty

garsh said:


> First, Melinda's assertion that your highway speed should be around 60mph in order to get close to the 310 mile range is correct. I don't understand why you say it is not, and keep bringing up the EPA rating.


Garsh, I didn't say that 60 mph won't get you close to the 310 mile rated range (it will, depending upon a host of other factors). What I said is that the 310 mile rated range was not based on driving 55-60 mph. Big difference between what the range is based on and the many ways that range can be achieved. You might also achieve the 310 mile range by driving 80 mph down the East slope of the Rockies. Or by driving 35 mph with the heater cranked on high. But that's not what the 310 mile range is based on.



> We're not talking about the EPA - we're talking about the range that the car itself reports on a full battery. If you want to actually approach that range, you need to adjust your driving style.


Of course, there are many ways to skin a cat.



> As for the 310 mile EPA rating, we've had a few very detailed threads on this subject in the past when the rating first came out (like this one). Yes, the car is driven on two well-defined drive cycles, repeated until battery depletion. And the average of those two drive cycles was... 477 miles. The standard thing to do with that number is to multiply by 0.7, which then gives you a rating of 334 miles. At that point, Tesla simply asked the EPA if it would be OK if they just advertised 310 miles, and the EPA permitted it. So while everything starts off with a nice well-defined testing regiment, in the end the final EPA rating doesn't have much to do with the testing - the testing basically sets a rough upper bound. And I say rough upper bound, because it turns out that the AWD version of the Model 3 ended up scoring 307 miles, and the EPA once again allowed Tesla to "tweak" the advertised value to 310 miles.


OK, you acknowledge the 310 mile range is based upon two drive cycles, a city and hwy. If you go back and read what I actually wrote, and what it was in response to, you will see that's exactly what I said.

I don't understand what you are taking issue with. Not every comment I make is in direct response to post #1 and that is clear because I typically quote the statements that I'm responding to. If you read them, you will see that.


----------



## garsh

PNWmisty said:


> OK, you acknowledge the 310 mile range is based upon two drive cycles, a city and hwy.


If you read what I wrote more closely, you'll understand that Tesla threw the drive cycle results out the window and said "we want to advertise it as 310 miles". So no, 310 miles is not based on the drive cycle results.



PNWmisty said:


> What I said is that the 310 mile rated range was not based on driving 55-60 mph.


What you said was: "The rated range is based on a mix of city and highway driving". I'm pointing out that this assertion is incorrect. The rated range was a number that Tesla chose and the EPA allowed. In actuality, Tesla probably chose it so that people driving 60 mph on highways wouldn't have a cow when they didn't reach 334 miles of range as the drive cycle predicted.


----------



## PNWmisty

garsh said:


> If you read what I wrote more closely, you'll understand that Tesla threw the drive cycle results out the window and said "we want to advertise it as 310 miles". So no, 310 miles is not based on the drive cycle results.
> 
> What you said was: "The rated range is based on a mix of city and highway driving". I'm pointing out that this assertion is incorrect. The rated range was a number that Tesla chose and the EPA allowed. In actuality, Tesla probably chose it so that people driving 60 mph on highways wouldn't have a cow when they didn't reach 334 miles of range as the drive cycle predicted.


I said it was _*based*_ on City and Hwy drive cycle tests, not that it was exactly equal to them. The EPA has very specific city and hwy test cycles. They also have a procedure for adjusting it and also for allowing manufacturers to request adjustments to the test results. That does not change the fact that the range is _*based*_ on those test results.

The rated range of 310 miles is the same for all Model 3 variants even though they all returned different test results because the EPA agreed to let Tesla advertise them as all the same since they were all close enough to the results from the two drive cycles that the EPA felt it would not be misleading. Your contention that the rated range is based upon 55-60 mph hwy driving has no evidence. If the 310-mile range is based upon a steady-state speed, then why are all Model 3 variants rated at exactly the same range even though we know real world results are different? Where is the evidence that it's based only on hwy range at a specific speed?

This is a silly argument and I'm not sure why you took issue with my statement that the range is based on a mix of city and hwy driving cycles.


----------



## ADK46

This discussion is not as silly as the way 310 miles was settled upon as the range by Tesla and the authorities, who viewed the real numbers too difficult to establish by actually driving the cars (they're from dyno-testing to which an aero calculation is applied, or something like that). They also viewed the results too complicated for us dummies to understand. The EPA has been notoriously accommodating to car manufacturers in this respect. VW's diesel scandal was discovered by university researchers who thought that actually _driving_ a car was a useful endeavor. Doh.

The actual range over the _full_ spectrum of model variations, conditions and usage is, indeed, very difficult to know, never mind depict on a sticker. I learned this well from creating the calculator; for me, a model is the only satisfactory depiction. But I think everyone would like to see at least the 334 and 307 ranges on RWD and AWD models.


----------



## garsh

PNWmisty said:


> I said it was _*based*_ on City and Hwy drive cycle tests, not that it was exactly equal to them.


And as I've pointed out, the final 310 mile value was not based on the test results.


> Where is the evidence that it's based only on hwy range at a specific speed?


Evidence:
https://teslaownersonline.com/threa...nge-at-55-60-65-70-75-80-mph.5496/#post-62323

To clarify, I'm not stating that this is _proof_. Yes, I'm just _guessing_ that this is why Tesla asked to advertise 310 miles. Troy put together this chart from the little bit of data that he had available at the time, and has apparently been updating it since then (last edit Nov 6). He estimated a Model 3 Performance having 309 miles of range at 60 mph. I don't know how well his estimate compares to real-world experiences, but I bet it's somewhat close.


----------



## PNWmisty

garsh said:


> And as I've pointed out, the final 310 mile value was not based on the test results.
> Evidence:
> https://teslaownersonline.com/threa...nge-at-55-60-65-70-75-80-mph.5496/#post-62323
> 
> To clarify, I'm not stating that this is _proof_. Yes, I'm just _guessing_ that this is why Tesla asked to advertise 310 miles. Troy put together this chart from the little bit of data that he had available at the time, and has apparently been updating it since then (last edit Nov 6). He estimated a Model 3 Performance having 309 miles of range at 60 mph. I don't know how well his estimate compares to real-world experiences, but I bet it's somewhat close.


Gosh Garsh, the 310 mile range for the Model 3 couldn't have been based on Troy's chart because it was made _*after *_the Model 3 was released.

This is a lot easier of a problem than: "Which came first, the chicken or the egg?".


----------



## garsh

PNWmisty said:


> Gosh Garsh, the 310 mile range for the Model 3 couldn't have been based on Troy's chart because it was made _*after *_the Model 3 was released.


Now you're creating a strawman.

Nobody said that Tesla based their decision off of Troy's chart. The chart is based off of data that shows the car going 309 miles at 60 mph. I'm sure that Tesla had similar data available to them long before Troy made a chart. It's a reasonable guess that Tesla chose the value of 310 miles because it corresponded to a steady-state 60 mph range, which they viewed as a more-achievable range value than the 334 miles predicted by the EPA testing.


----------



## PNWmisty

garsh said:


> Nobody said that Tesla based their decision off of Troy's chart. The chart is based off of data that shows the car going 309 miles at 60 mph. I'm sure that Tesla had similar data available to them long before Troy made a chart. It's a reasonable guess that Tesla chose the value of 310 miles because it corresponded to a steady-state 60 mph range, which they viewed as a more-achievable range value than the 334 miles predicted by the EPA testing.


Did it occur to you that there will always be a steady state speed at which the consumption matches the EPA range under average conditions? It doesn't imply that Tesla based the 310-mile range on that one speed and there is zero evidence that Tesla based the 310 miles on a steady state speed. It is just a representational number of the consumption expected under a range of uses. And they couldn't have used it without the approval of the EPA. The number is based upon the testing they did at various speeds and conditions.

Unless you have evidence to the contrary, I think this discussion has pretty much played itself out (and then some).


----------



## SR22pilot

garsh said:


> If you read what I wrote more closely, you'll understand that Tesla threw the drive cycle results out the window and said "we want to advertise it as 310 miles". So no, 310 miles is not based on the drive cycle results.
> 
> What you said was: "The rated range is based on a mix of city and highway driving". I'm pointing out that this assertion is incorrect. The rated range was a number that Tesla chose and the EPA allowed. In actuality, Tesla probably chose it so that people driving 60 mph on highways wouldn't have a cow when they didn't reach 334 miles of range as the drive cycle predicted.


I suspect Tesla chose 310 so their cheapest (at the time) car wouldn't be the one with the longest range. Note that Tesla doesn't want to advertise that the more expensive versions of the Model 3 have less range. They just say 310 everywhere. At 340 the Model 3 would have had longer rated range than the Model S 100D.


----------



## garsh

PNWmisty said:


> Did it occur to you that there will always be a steady state speed at which the consumption matches the EPA range under average conditions?


Yes, it did! And in this case, it happens to match the 60 mph speed. And coming back full-circle, it was thus quite _reasonable_ for MelindaV to therefore opine as she had that:


MelindaV said:


> but the 'rated' 310 miles is likely based on 55-60MPH speeds.


Yet for some reason, you continue to insist that her statement is wrong.


PNWmisty said:


> The number is based upon the testing they did at various speeds and conditions.


310 miles doesn't appear _anywhere_ in the EPA testing results. I don't understand why you insist that this number is based on the testing when it so clearly is not.


----------



## SR22pilot

MelindaV said she thought it was based on 60 mph. That's reasonable but I suspect incorrect. Then again, I could be wrong. PNWmisty says it is based on EPA testing. Saying it is based on EPA testing does *not* require taking the EPA number and running with it. I personally believed the 310 number is based on the EPA number as a start and then modified by marketing considerations. That is my opinion. Unless someone has deep insight into what was said inside Tesla, the circular arguments going on in this thread will just continue with everyone restating their opinion. However, I am tempted to side with MelindaV based on the fact that she has a pretty red car like mine.


----------



## MelindaV

SR22pilot said:


> However, I am tempted to side with MelindaV based on the fact that she has a pretty red car like mine.


yay Team Red!


----------



## LUXMAN

PNWmisty said:


> I firmly believe those who think they owe their kids a college education are basically admitting they failed as a parent.


Interesting thought. I don't know if you are kidding or not, but I definitely don't owe my kid a college education, but with costs going up so much and the cost of a good living going up, it can be a good investment so ypu don't have this in your basement in the future


----------



## FRC

I also found that statement odd. My parents gave me an education, therefore I gave my kids an education, and expect them to continue that trend. Nothing wrong with paying your own way or with choosing not to obtain higher education, but with education come options. But I don't suppose this has anything to do with Tesla!


----------



## PNWmisty

LUXMAN said:


> Interesting thought. I don't know if you are kidding or not, but I definitely don't owe my kid a college education, but with costs going up so much and the cost of a good living going up, it can be a good investment so ypu don't have this in your basement in the future
> View attachment 18159


Haha! No I wasn't kidding but you managed to find a photo of a worse "failure". OK, the word "failure" is pretty strong, I should have said, "Those who think they owe their kids a college education are admitting their parenting was sub-optimal".


----------



## GateFather

PNWmisty said:


> Haha! No I wasn't kidding but you managed to find a photo of a worse "failure". OK, the word "failure" is pretty strong, I should have said, "Those who think they owe their kids a college education are admitting their parenting was sub-optimal".


Devils advocate.....My parents were generous enough to offer to pay for 3/4 years of my college education. I graduated, got a great job, paid off my loans for 1 year of college relatively quickly, and was able to take the remaining loans off of my parents hands. Now my loans are paid off and I have a very rewarding career which allowed me to purchase a very rewarding car - and do some good at the same time. None of which would have been possible if my parent's didn't do what they did for me (and my brother and sister). I understand I may be an edge-case and was lucky enough to find a great job immediately out of school, but there is merit in some cases to paying for your kids' educations. I plan to pay for all three of mine (G-D help me).


----------



## PNWmisty

GateFather said:


> Devils advocate.....My parents were generous enough to offer to pay for 3/4 years of my college education. I graduated, got a great job, paid off my loans for 1 year of college relatively quickly, and was able to take the remaining loans off of my parents hands. Now my loans are paid off and I have a very rewarding career. None of which would have been possible if my parent's didn't do what they did for me (and my brother and sister). I understand I may be an edge-case and was lucky enough to find a great job immediately out of school, but there is merit in some cases to paying for your kids' educations.


Oh, I'm not saying it can't work out, I'm saying it's not obligatory and the parents shouldn't be expected to provide that. A parents job is to provide the tools needed to excel in the world. Growing up in the right environment provides invaluable life skills that can't be replicated in an institution of higher learning. I never bought into the dream of "getting a great job" and working for someone else. Yes, that is the "safe" thing to do but life is too short to always take the "safe" path. If that's someone's "thing" fine, but there are huge entrepreneurial opportunities also, ones with no requirement of a degree. People are fearful of failure but failure does not mean you're going to starve and die, failure is just another form of education (and often a whole lot less expensive). Bill Gates was a college dropout, as were many other highly successful and productive innovators. IMO, higher education should be for personal growth and enrichment before it's for vocational training. The world desperately needs more innovators.

Elon Musk has a college degree but he dropped out of the doctorate program to pursue entrepreneurial opportunities (and the world is a better place for it). All of us Tesla owners can be thankful he didn't get too chummy with academia. I doubt we would be driving the amazing cars we have today.


----------



## LUXMAN

PNWmisty said:


> Haha! No I wasn't kidding but you managed to find a photo of a worse "failure". OK, the word "failure" is pretty strong, I should have said, "Those who think they owe their kids a college education are admitting their parenting was sub-optimal".


Now, that said, I didn't have anyone pay for my college. I had loans and worked the 1st year and the American people were kind enough to fund my next 4 years but I payed them back with 9+ years of service. So I consider that paying my own way. 
"So why should I pay for his college?" has been a thought in our house. I paid for my wife's degree but that doesn't count in this case (LOL!)
And it all comes back to the fact that we want him to be successful and get a leg up on life. Not saying you cant be without an education but in todays world, the more education you have the bigger the horizon in my book. 
I see your point about "owe their kids", but I am not sure many think they owe their kids a college education. I think they want to do it if they can. Mine couldn't and that is fine, there are other ways.


----------



## Love

LUXMAN said:


> Now, that said, I didn't have anyone pay for my college. I had loans and worked the 1st year and the American people were kind enough to fund my next 4 years but I payed them back with 9+ years of service. So I consider that paying my own way.
> "So why should I pay for his college?" has been a thought in our house. I paid for my wife's degree but that doesn't count in this case (LOL!)
> And it all comes back to the fact that we want him to be successful and get a leg up on life. Not saying you cant be without an education but in todays world, the more education you have the bigger the horizon in my book.
> I see your point about "owe their kids", but I am not sure many think they owe their kids a college education. I think they want to do it if they can. Mine couldn't and that is fine, there are other ways.


Thank you for your service!!!


----------



## GDN

LUXMAN said:


> So this isn't so much as what I "DID TO", but "DID FOR" my RUBY WOO.
> 
> I have a great Router/Wireless network in the house, but it is on the other side of the house. So I had an OLD Netgear Wifi Extender that I had been using. It doesn't take advantage of the 5G speeds.
> Sitting in the car running a Speed test with my phone yields this …..
> 
> View attachment 18313
> 
> 
> Pitiful. So my wife tests products for a Major Retailer from time to time and had an opportunity to do a Google WiFi.
> 
> View attachment 18315
> 
> 
> So she installed it in my office (RUBY is on the other side of the wall) as an extra network that will cover the garage and front of the house with a much stronger signal.
> So the result is RUBY should now be seeing this...
> 
> View attachment 18314
> 
> 
> Now the cool thing is that my office has a wired connection that comes from the Router. So we just routed it through the Google WiFi to provide the network and keep the Desktop wired though the other Ethernet port on the Google WiFi. Now I can also monitor the data that RUBY downloads via the Google WiFi App, something I couldn't do before


Fun stuff - new bandwidth for Ruby and Google has tools you'll be able to see just how much bandwidth she takes and when. You'll see those Map updates and SW updates very likely. You can also let Google have a bit more private information to sell !! 

I try to avoid them, but indeed I do truly use some of their tools and services so you can't escape it regardless of how hard you try.


----------



## garsh

GDN said:


> You can also let Google have a bit more private information to sell !!


Google doesn't sell any private information.

https://safety.google/privacy/ads-and-data/


----------



## Defjukie

garsh said:


> Google doesn't sell any private information.
> 
> https://safety.google/privacy/ads-and-data/


No, but they definitely use that info (in sometimes dubious ways) and sell the results.


----------



## garsh

Defjukie said:


> No, but they definitely use that info (in sometimes dubious ways) and sell the results.


Google sells ads.

Google will store information, they will process that information, but they _don't even sell the results of that processing_. They'll use all of that collected information to figure out what ads to show to you. But they _never_ sell that information, unlike some other companies we know <COUGH>facebook</COUGH>.


----------



## MelindaV

garsh said:


> Google sells ads.
> 
> Google will store information, they will process that information, but they _don't even sell the results of that processing_. They'll use all of that collected information to figure out what ads to show to you. But they _never_ sell that information, unlike some other companies we know <COUGH>facebook</COUGH>.


a conspiracy theorist (border paranoid) coworker was sure Google was also using her computer or phone mic for ads. On more than one instance, we had a conversation about some very specific product that had not been searched or mentioned in a gmail email (like a specific specialty commercial building product she didn't know about). Later that day, that item started showing up in targeted ads on her computer. 
While I am not a super sensitive one to privacy or the conspiracies she believed, the few times was hard to argue with.


----------



## PNWmisty

Bigriver said:


> I've really enjoyed this thread! Good topic, good discussion, and more than a few laughs.
> 
> I don't have a particularly eloquent resume of past cars (gave away the 13 year old Honda Odyssey last month and signing over the 6 year old Ford Focus tomorrow), so sometimes I feel like one of the Beverly Hillbillies with my Tesla's. To me they are simply amazing and there are very few things I would change. Among those few things tho - I hate wood in cars, so was all prepared to change that in the X - but then we found that it was actually ok. And I had heard so much about the dreaded piano black in the 3 that I almost preordered a wrap for it before getting the car. But I've found that I really like the looks of it and am able to mostly keep my grubby fingers off of it. I thought I would have wanted leather, but these vegan seats are amazing. So as for style and luxury, I am happy as a clam. But I do enjoy reading the diverse opinions and more refined tastes from those of you who probably actually keep your elbows off the table when you eat.


I love your perspectives and willingness to change your opinions as you are exposed to new things! I also love your enthusiasm for your Teslas and I think it reflects someone who is naturally happy with the life they have made for themselves. When people complain about the smallest little things, I have to think they are genuinely unhappy with their life. Life is too short and too precious to spend time worrying about the smallest little things/preferences, these kind of people will never be happy for more than a few hours after their latest purchase. Then, they get a sinking feeling as they realize how much money they just spent and that one of the stitches on the steering wheel cover crosses over in the wrong direction. I mean, really, for $60K don't you think they could get every stitch properly placed? At its root, this is just something not related to them to blame their general unhappiness on.

Is your glass half empty or is it half full? Live, create, laugh, enjoy, love, drive, recharge and play! And never worry about resting a weary arm on a table or what someone else might think of it. Life is too short.


----------



## $ Trillion Musk

PNWmisty said:


> I love your perspectives and willingness to change your opinions as you are exposed to new things! I also love your enthusiasm for your Teslas and I think it reflects someone who is naturally happy with the life they have made for themselves. When people complain about the smallest little things, I have to think they are genuinely unhappy with their life. Life is too short and too precious to spend time worrying about the smallest little things/preferences, these kind of people will never be happy for more than a few hours after their latest purchase. Then, they get a sinking feeling as they realize how much money they just spent and that one of the stitches on the steering wheel cover crosses over in the wrong direction. I mean, really, for $60K don't you think they could get every stitch properly placed? At its root, this is just something not related to them to blame their general unhappiness on.
> 
> Is your glass half empty or is it half full? Live, create, laugh, enjoy, love, drive, recharge and play! And never worry about resting a weary arm on a table or what someone else might think of it. Life is too short.


So I guess you're saying that if someone complains about Tesla that person is automatically labelled as an unhappy person? And btw I put my elbows on the table while I eat whenever I feel like it - and I'm proud of it! I sit on my leg as well. Everyone should try it some time.


----------



## PNWmisty

$ Trillion Musk said:


> So I guess you're saying that if someone complains about Tesla that person is automatically labelled as an unhappy person?


No not by me, but I have noticed a correlation. In general, the more inconsequential the complaint, the more unhappy the person.


----------



## Love

PNWmisty said:


> No not by me, but I have noticed a correlation. In general, the more inconsequential the complaint, the more unhappy the person.


I don't like the color of your name!!!!

Now if you'll excuse me, time to call my therapist.


----------



## Love

I’m gonna set a record for posts moved here.


----------



## garsh

Lovesword said:


> I'm gonna set a record for posts moved here.


Inflated by how often you simply reply right here.


----------



## Love

garsh said:


> Inflated by how often you simply reply right here.


Keep on topic @garsh!!!


----------



## MelindaV

I think @Lovesword's true goal here is to beat @garsh out in the funny count


----------



## garsh

MelindaV said:


> I think @Lovesword's true goal here is to beat @garsh out in the funny count


Thanks for the reminder.

*Hey @TrevP, _most_ _funnies_.....*


----------



## FRC

Hey @MelindaV, how about a funniest poll?


----------



## MelindaV

FRC said:


> Hey @MelindaV, how about a funniest poll?


that's what the funny button is for every post!

but by ratio of personally received ratings of the couple I just checked (because @TrevP hasn't automated funny _YET_)...

@Lovesword 36% funny (secondly being likable at 32%)
@garsh 18% funny (mostly agreeable at 42%)
@FRC 17% funny (mostly likable at 39%)
@MelindaV 12% funny (mostly agreeable at 36%)

so Lovesward really is winning at the funny votes by ratio.


----------



## FRC

Hey @MelindaV from here forward I'm not funnying @Lovesword or @garsh anymore!


----------



## MelindaV

i should not have just pressed the funny button......


----------



## FRC

MelindaV said:


> i should not have just pressed the funny button......


There, we're even!


----------



## MelindaV

FRC said:


> There, we're even!


really is a vicious cycle


----------



## Love

MelindaV said:


> that's what the funny button is for every post!
> 
> but by ratio of personally received ratings of the couple I just checked (because @TrevP hasn't automated funny _YET_)...
> 
> @Lovesword 36% funny (secondly being likable at 32%)
> @garsh 18% funny (mostly agreeable at 42%)
> @FRC 17% funny (mostly likable at 39%)
> @MelindaV 12% funny (mostly agreeable at 36%)
> 
> so Lovesward really is winning at the funny votes by ratio.


Now that is some beautiful off topic statistics! Thanks @MelindaV


----------



## Bokonon

Lovesword said:


> Now that is some beautiful off topic statistics! Thanks @MelindaV


I want to Agree with this, but I also don't want to mess up your Funny ratio. 

Meanwhile, I just noticed I've given 49.3% more ratings than I've received. Does this mean I'm... generous? Easy to please? Unable to resist the allure of colorful icons that really look like they should be edible? (Hang on, I have to go raid my son's Halloween candy again...)


----------



## FRC

Bokonon said:


> I want to Agree with this, but I also don't want to mess up your Funny ratio.
> 
> Meanwhile, I just noticed I've given 49.3% more ratings than I've received. Does this mean I'm... generous? Easy to please? Unable to resist the allure of colorful icons that really look like they should be edible? (Hang on, I have to go raid my son's Halloween candy again...)


Thanks, people. Your funniness today has greatly helped me alleviate the very painful loss by my Bulldogs tonight.


----------



## PNWmisty

Wooloomooloo said:


> Way off base for what?


You stated that the average EV owner shouldn't have to think about going through a full charge/discharge cycle for purposes of allowing the BMS to re-calibrate because it could be considered "off-putting".

I stated that, unless you know of a better alternative, your statement is way off base (which means it doesn't reflect the reality of the situation).

You still haven't come up with a better alternative. And you have a bad habit of trying to drag a straightforward discussion into the personal realm.


----------



## Jay Jay

All real car companies have dealerships? Lol. *rolls eyes*


----------



## kort677

babula said:


> Indeed, but both take up a lot of energy. I was always getting over 300 wh/mi and I was trying to figure out why because I was driving at perfect conditions. As soon as I started turning off my AC, and now the heat because it's colder out - I'm consistently around 230.


where do you come up with the facts to back up your claims? 
both do NOT take up a lot of energy, the AC uses a much smaller amount of energy than the heater.


----------



## garsh

kort677 said:


> where do you come up with the facts to back up your claims?
> both do NOT take up a lot of energy, the AC uses a much smaller amount of energy than the heater.


I don't disagree, but if you're going to ask someone to produce data to support a statement, you should probably do the same.


----------



## kort677

garsh said:


> I don't disagree, but if you're going to ask someone to produce data to support a statement, you should probably do the same.


if I make an assertion like was made I'd post the support data, I questioned his comment, let him back it up


----------



## Darrenf

GateFather said:


> with blueberry farms on one side and the pine bearings on the other -


What are pine bearings? Do they effect traction?


----------



## GateFather

Darrenf said:


> What are pine bearings? Do the effect traction?


 Pine Barrens


----------



## Darrenf

GateFather said:


> Pine Barrens


Nice to have another 3 owner around the corner. I grew up in Hammonton, attended St. Joes in the 70s and 80s.


----------



## GateFather

Darrenf said:


> Nice to have another 3 owner around the corner. I grew up in Hammonton, attended St. Joes in the 70s and 80s.


Nice! Just took my family on the Santa Express Train out of Richland last week. Was a blast!


----------



## PNWmisty

mswlogo said:


> I think if you looked at the stats there are way more problems with Android phones than iPhones.


That's true and it's almost certainly a direct result of Android being more customizable. Not only can different manufacturers alter the "flavor" of Android but Android OS's are generally much more configurable by the phone user. There are more settings in the menu. Neither my wifes phone or my phone worked consistently until I configured them to keep Bluetooth active and to give the Tesla app the proper permissions.

My own experience tells me that a lot of Android users reporting problems could have 100% reliability simply by configuring their phone so Bluetooth didn't go into sleep mode (or a reduced Bluetooth pollling mode) and also gave the Tesla app the necessary permissions (for example to continue in the background even if the phones battery is low). Others might fix their lack of consistency by ditching poorly writtern 3rd party apps that address the phones Bluetooth. And it makes sense there are some older or non-complying Android handsets out there that might not be 100% reliable without a suitable update being made available from the handset manufacturer.

Similarly, iPhone users reporting spotty reliability might fix the issue with similar means. But the menus do not allow for the amount of customization afforded by most Android handsets so it makes sense that more iPhone users report 100% functionality. A more basic menu with fewer options leads to less possibilities to configure it incorrectly (and removes the chance of having a different flavor of the OS that is non-compliant with the Bluetooth standards).

I'm curious, are you an Apple shareholder? Your comments make me think you are.


----------



## mswlogo

PNWmisty said:


> That's true and it's almost certainly a direct result of Android being more customizable. Not only can different manufacturers alter the "flavor" of Android but Android OS's are generally much more configurable by the phone user. There are more settings in the menu. Neither my wifes phone or my phone worked consistently until I configured them to keep Bluetooth active and to give the Tesla app the proper permissions.
> 
> My own experience tells me that a lot of Android users reporting problems could have 100% reliability simply by configuring their phone so Bluetooth didn't go into sleep mode (or a reduced Bluetooth pollling mode) and also gave the Tesla app the necessary permissions (for example to continue in the background even if the phones battery is low). Others might fix their lack of consistency by ditching poorly writtern 3rd party apps that address the phones Bluetooth. And it makes sense there are some older or non-complying Android handsets out there that might not be 100% reliable without a suitable update being made available from the handset manufacturer.
> 
> Similarly, iPhone users reporting spotty reliability might fix the issue with similar means. But the menus do not allow for the amount of customization afforded by most Android handsets so it makes sense that more iPhone users report 100% functionality. A more basic menu with fewer options leads to less possibilities to configure it incorrectly (and removes the chance of having a different flavor of the OS that is non-compliant with the Bluetooth standards).
> 
> I'm curious, are you an Apple shareholder? Your comments make me think you are.


Nope. Just someone that develops bluetooth apps on both platforms.
You are right about it often being settings on both platforms. And even the settings vary one Android implementation to another.
And yes, it can be the apps to, but I don't put much blame on them for that because I know how incredibly difficult (and expensive) it is to get your app to run correctly on a wide range of Android Versions and implementations.

Because of iPhone/iOS consistency they naturally get better testing. That same amount of man hours has to be spread across 5 versions of Android and 5 Manufactures. Android apps will never be as stable. Total crap shoot.


----------



## kort677

the procedure is noted in the post above, you could read the manual while you're waiting for someone


----------



## kort677

it's a shame that my advice to read the manual was deemed to be unworthy and tossed to the junk heap


----------



## Ed Woodrick

kort677 said:


> there are two simple work arounds, don't enter NAV instructions while in reverse or when you will be going into reverse, and if you do lose the camera just put the car into park and then put into reverse and the camera view reappears.


Amen. If driving in reverse is so important, then stop trying to operate the nav.
Also, there is a concept called looking at mirrors and turning your head.


----------



## babula

kort677 said:


> where do you come up with the facts to back up your claims?
> both do NOT take up a lot of energy, the AC uses a much smaller amount of energy than the heater.


What you are saying _might_ be factual and based on data (please share some links if it is).

What I wrote is based directly on my experience with the car after doing 3k miles. 
I've been monitoring efficiency since delivery because I find it interesting.

Also, I see you are located in FL so I'm guessing you haven't extensively tested this yourself have you?


----------



## kort677

babula said:


> What you are saying _might_ be factual and based on data (please share some links if it is).
> 
> What I wrote is based directly on my experience with the car after doing 3k miles.
> I've been monitoring efficiency since delivery because I find it interesting.
> 
> Also, I see you are located in FL so I'm guessing you haven't extensively tested this yourself have you?


do your own research, start here https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/200-wh-mile-to-use-heater.137746/#post-3264498


----------



## kort677

babula said:


> Also, I see you are located in FL so I'm guessing you haven't extensively tested this yourself have you?


and FWIW I bet I have driven more cold weather miles in a tesla than you've driven your tesla in any conditions. instead of posting your conclusions that are very short on facts try perusing the many tesla sltes where this has been discussed ad nauseam


----------



## JWardell

kort677 said:


> it's a shame that my advice to read the manual was deemed to be unworthy and tossed to the junk heap


I have to agree, this thread used to be enjoyable to read and was more off-topic funny stuff. Now it really is the argument bin.
Bring back the silly!


----------



## theloneranger08

garsh said:


> Every community has its advocates. But you've carried on a continuous, contentious discussion with a single person in this thread, and then decide to lash-out against the rest of the community. Why?
> 
> You have made your point. You do not like Tesla's phone solution. But you also don't like Tesla's fob solution. I think we all understand why you do not like either solution. And I can understand the frustration that you must feel that you haven't been able to figure out how to get your phone working reliably. But I'm not sure what type of reaction you'd like from people here.
> 
> Are you trying to gather supporters for a "grass-roots" attempt at convincing Tesla to provide a third option?
> 
> Would you like some help configuring your phone to work as intended?


Can't believe this conversation is still going on. Garsh, do you side with PNWMisty because he's a legendary member? He's not helpful at all and basically tells us it's our fault for not having phones that work. Give me a break.


----------



## theloneranger08

crackers8199 said:


> thanks for the excellent help. peace.


PNWMisty believes that Tesla is completely infallible and can do nothing wrong. Shame on anyone for thinking otherwise.


----------



## kort677

fazluke said:


> You are right but I am just quoting Mr Musk, plans always can change and I'll be happy with that.


mr musk has been know to make outlandish promises.


----------



## Gusm3

I know it’s off-topic but what about for California specifically in the bay area does anyone have specified tires ?


----------



## Gusm3

Both of you please report your vin I wonder if it’s a batch issue today i’m picking up mine as well


----------



## 240w

Lol. 
Buy five different lug key sets so you’ll need 5 adapter keys, and to top it off, buy the “club” on eBay


----------



## Darrenf

FRC said:


> This begs another question. How do you (quickly) turn off the alarm, I see nothing on the mobile app.





Mistersandman said:


> So this begs the question. What is the proper way to allow someone to sit in the car with doors locked but not have the car alarm go off should they decide to open the door?


Sorry for the gramnmar nazi moment, but this is one of my pet peeves, and my OCD doesn't allow me to not mention it. The phrase you are going for is "raises the question". Begs the question is a term used in logic and debate. https://www.quickanddirtytips.com/education/grammar/begs-the-question-update


----------



## MelindaV

Darrenf said:


> Sorry for the gramnmar nazi moment, but this is one of my pet peeves, and my OCD doesn't allow me to not mention it. The phrase you are going for is "raises the question". Begs the question is a term used in logic and debate. https://www.quickanddirtytips.com/education/grammar/begs-the-question-update


But the typo...


----------



## FRC

MelindaV said:


> But the typo...


If we want to spend our lives correcting "gramnmar" and typos in forums, there won't be much time left to drive.
Hey Pot, Kettle here!


----------



## MelindaV

FRC said:


> If we want to spend our lives correcting "gramnmar" and typos in forums, there won't be much time left to drive.


I was just pointing out the irony.


----------



## FRC

MelindaV said:


> I was just pointing out the irony.


Sorry, Melinda, not directed at you!


----------



## Love

Gramnar is just an easy new word that combines grammar and nazi into one! 


Or a Game of Thrones character... as in:
“Sh!t, the mountain and aquaman just killed Gramnar!!!”


----------



## FRC

Lovesword said:


> Gramnar is just an easy new word that combines grammar and nazi into one!
> 
> Or a Game of Thrones character... as in:
> "Sh!t, the mountain and aquaman just killed Gramnar!!!"


You misspelled gramnmar.


----------



## Love

FRC said:


> You misspelled gramnmar.


Don't judge me, recently off'd GoT extra!!!


----------



## Guest

Michel Zehnder said:


> You seem to have a lot of question marks


Yes I do. If you want I can sell them ;-) I still have the biggest question mark of all.... Why am I here, What is the meaning of Brian's life. Never could formulate an answer to this!


----------



## Michel Zehnder

Meaning of life is easy: 42


----------



## Guest

Michel Zehnder said:


> Meaning of life is easy: 42


I think that Brain's life is the same,......but a bit more serious .... seeing it from point of view of my ancestors a 1000 years ago .. Stringa's moving from Bulgary into the northern Italian mountains to the South of France (and luckely escaped back again to Northern Italy, now Switzerland) the meaning of Life is to serve The Highest as Angels, to do good on Earth and not to fall for Lucifer. Yes, my ancestors were the True Christians or later named as Cathars. Somehow I tend to understand this. Maybe my raising? Again a question mark! Sometimes Churchrecords, genealogy or family history written in familybooks is nice,


----------



## Guest

Peter Stringa said:


> Yes I do. If you want I can sell them ;-) I still have the biggest question mark of all.... Why am I here, What is the meaning of Brian's life. Never could formulate an answer to this!


And the more I know; the more question marks I get, funny how I do not get rid of those.,,,,,,it looks like I become more dumb by the day. Who said this?


----------



## Guest

Peter Stringa said:


> And the more I know; the more question marks I get, funny how I do not get rid of those.,,,,,,it looks like I become more dumb by the day. Who said this?


And who said: "who is normal?"
"And have you ever seen a normal person?" I saw this question mark once in a psychiatric hospital where I applied for a job. I thought the thought was very funny and even true. At first I wasn't even tempted to say : "look at me!" Cause even by that time according to norms I thought I was a bit mad, but then again I said to myself.... probably and according to this question mark this is normal..... So I am normal, ha, ha, ha.


----------



## Guest

GDN said:


> MOD POST - Please keep the conversation on topic. Sorry I didn't take the time to move a few posts, I just deleted several that weren't on topic. Those posts and conversations are fun, but need to be had in the off topic forums. As everyone gets excited and getting to order and share information, please keep the posts and comments on topic as this thread alone is almost 1400 posts long. Think of someone new coming along to the forum and trying to catch up a bit, this is a lot to process.
> 
> Have fun and carry on, but please stay on topic in the threads.
> 
> Thanks !!


Ok I will, but someone new coming to the forum? I was away for almost 2 years. And came again just a few weeks ago. Only the members of 2 years ago are active in this forum. There is definitely not a strong growth in this forum.


----------



## guidom

Peter Stringa said:


> Ok I will, but someone new coming to the forum? I was away for almost 2 years. And came again just a few weeks ago. Only the members of 2 years ago are active in this forum. There is definitely not a strong growth in this forum.


I'm new. I found the forum really active and useful so far. Thanks to the moderator for removing some really bizarre posts.


----------



## Woesch

Peter Stringa said:


> Ok I will, but someone new coming to the forum? I was away for almost 2 years. And came again just a few weeks ago. Only the members of 2 years ago are active in this forum. There is definitely not a strong growth in this forum.


I do not need growth in this forum as long as the growth consists just out of bizzare statements. 😯


----------



## Guest

Ok guys and girls, Understood. But bizarre? Free of mind. Free of consensus. Free of the narrow traded paths. Free of poluting the world with CO2. That is how the mind of Elon Musk is working. That's why I buy a €70.000 Tesla. And I hope a lot of people will invest in natureloving products like the solar panels and the power walls of Tesla which can charge all the model 3 's. And the statements had humor, see the movie The life of Brian. And were meant that way as well as raising awareness for a better Tesla-world. 
The forum certainly is good for information, but sometimes topics have a pause, because people are trying to find more information in the "back-office" so to speak.. if in the meantime nobody is continuing the topic shuts down/ bleeds to death without actualy being closed. Then everybody can miss out good information. That is a reason I sometimes go "off topic" or "on pause-topic". Waiting for new info. Does that have to be all the time very serious? No intellectual sidegames in the iPad of the M3? Are only Emissions Testing mode Easter Eggs allowed? That's farting!, ha, ha,ha.


----------



## MelindaV

Peter Stringa said:


> if in the meantime nobody is continuing the topic shuts down/ bleeds to death without actualy being closed. Then everybody can miss out good information. That is a reason I sometimes go "off topic" or "on pause-topic". Waiting for new info.


there is no problem with a thread sitting quietly in the background for weeks/months, etc. That is what the search function is for, to find info that may have fallen a page or two (or 10) back. 
Keeping it at the front by filling it with fluff doesn't really help it if it becomes so overloaded with conversations that are not relevant that it becomes useless to anyone looking for information. There are plenty of threads for banter and to get to know each other without needing to specifically take an informative thread off topic.

And by mods moving off topic threads, either to create a new conversation, to another related thread, or to here shouldn't be looked at as penalizing someone or telling them to quit participating, but to keep this site organized and useful to everyone


----------



## Guest

MelindaV said:


> there is no problem with a thread sitting quietly in the background for weeks/months, etc. That is what the search function is for, to find info that may have fallen a page or two (or 10) back.
> Keeping it at the front by filling it with fluff doesn't really help it if it becomes so overloaded with conversations that are not relevant that it becomes useless to anyone looking for information. There are plenty of threads for banter and to get to know each other without needing to specifically take an informative thread off topic.
> 
> And by mods moving off topic threads, either to create a new conversation, to another related thread, or to here shouldn't be looked at as penalizing someone or telling them to quit participating, but to keep this site organized and useful to everyone


The point is that hardly anyone is using the searchfunction for (long) passive threads. People want to read the news of "today" only. People only search when they look for specific info. Hardly ever new info is added to an old thread. Therefore the thread is not complete with all relevant info. I write this as an expert in the field of Informationgathering and - sharing. That is why I try to keep it active on the moment it is active. The archive- and searchfunctions are not very good structured and there are missing good metadata- and contentdisclosure possibilities in these forums. So if somebody is looking for something, he/she needs time find it. And people are impatient, loose interest and leave it. But I think this topic is done now. Let's go back to model 3 and the Easter eggs.
Or are you telling me politely to quit participating the Model3ownersclub and its sites?


----------



## garsh

Peter Stringa said:


> Or are you telling me politely to quit participating the Model3ownersclub and its sites?


No, she is not. She's just politely asking you to try to keep posts in a thread relevant to the topic.

As an "expert in the field of Informationgathering and - sharing", I trust that you've learned the concept of signal-to-noise ratio?


----------



## Guest

garsh said:


> No, she is not. She's just politely asking you to try to keep posts in a thread relevant to the topic.
> 
> As an "expert in the field of Informationgathering and - sharing", I trust that you've learned the concept of signal-to-noise ratio?


Ok ! Yes, I did learn the signal-to-noise ratio. How can I undo my membership? If I can't do it by myself, I hereby fill out the request of removing me as a member.


----------



## garsh

Peter Stringa said:


> Ok ! Yes, I did learn the signal-to-noise ratio. How can I undo my membership? If I can't do it by myself, I hereby fill out the request of removing me as a member.


Did you misunderstand the part where I said that we were NOT asking you to quit participating?


----------



## Guest

garsh said:


> Did you misunderstand the part where I said that we were NOT asking you to quit participating?


No, but that first part is politely protecting MelindaV, cause she was a bit too harsh in your eyes. And if you read her sentence/line again and good... she IS asking me to quit participating. "......as penalizing someone or telling them to quit participating....."
Your second part about signal to noise ratio IS politely indirectly requesting me AGAIN to quit participating. Or to put it in other words "Didn't you get/understand the signal?"
So my question to you and the club is "How can I undo my membership? And If I can't do it by myself can you take care of removing me as a member?

A follow-up to the above. "And by mods moving off topic threads, either to create a new conversation, to another related thread, or to here shouldn't be looked at" means that the topic is not placed in the correct folder. Because " or to here shouldn't be looked at" is a British standing expression in older English for writing / reading /placing / looking on the wrong page or in the wrong place, a figuratif expression.


----------



## garsh

Peter Stringa said:


> No, but that first part is politely protecting MelindaV, cause she was a bit too harsh in your eyes.


No, Melinda wasn't harsh at all.

I just thought that you as a non-native English speaker were having trouble understanding, and thought I would help explain.


> she IS asking me to quit participating. "......as penalizing someone or telling them to quit participating....."


No, she specifically stated that you WERE NOT being penalized. One of the jobs that Trevor has asked us to perform as moderators is to help keep conversations on-topic. When conversations get too far off-topic, we'll move posts. It is not a penalty, it's just an attempt to keep things organized.


----------



## Guest

garsh said:


> No, Melinda wasn't harsh at all.
> 
> I just thought that you as a non-native English speaker were having trouble understanding, and thought I would help explain.
> 
> No, she specifically stated that you WERE NOT being penalized. One of the jobs that Trevor has asked us to perform as moderators is to help keep conversations on-topic. When conversations get too far off-topic, we'll move posts. It is not a penalty, it's just an attempt to keep things organized.


I think you should learn more about the history of the English language.

So..............................I quit.


----------



## garsh

Peter Stringa said:


> I think you should learn more about the history of the English language.


I'm not sure what a history lesson has to do with your inability to understand Melinda's post.


> So..............................I quit.


You can do as you choose.


----------



## Guest

garsh said:


> I'm not sure what a history lesson has to do with your inability to understand Melinda's post.


No, she used the wrong idiom or made a sentence with two possible explanations. Now it seems she should have used a punctuation mark in the right place in between the words "here" and "shouldn't" Bummer!

That is why your sentence about signal to noise ratio got a different meaning in polite indirect (posh) English as well.

I say this directly. Think about that.


----------



## Love




----------



## Guest

garsh said:


> I'm not sure what a history lesson has to do with your inability to understand Melinda's post.
> 
> You can do as you choose.


I thought you'd moved this conversation to a private place. Now it seems it still is in a public place, where everybody can read along and rate this.
I think that is wrong of you, moderators! Cause this conversation is Off Topic!!!!!!!!!!

But the jokes about it are funny though, FRC and Lovesword! Just like parodies on Peyton Place, hey?!


----------



## Guest

One of the fewest waisted afternoons of my life, this one.


----------



## Love

Peter Stringa said:


> I thought you'd moved this conversation to a private place. Now it seems it still is in a public place, where everybody can read along and rate this.
> I think that is wrong of you, moderators!
> 
> But the jokes about it are funny though, FRC and Lovesword! Just like parodies on Peyton Place, hey?!


Don't worry friend, the many posts of mine in this thread are about 90% from other threads where I'd gotten us way off topic... our mod team here does a good job of trying to keep each thread clean and on topic so the informative "meat" is readily available without much sifting. I admit at first I was like "Where the hell did my post go?" but then I realized the method to their modness (Dear god this is clever... kudos me).

As an example, look no further than the latest software update threads that get inundated with "I got it!" posts. Hard to moderate excitement but the threads intentions are to be informative about what's changed/updated, and so I go to them thinking I'll get some info on the update but instead see tons of "got it!" posts. Then I make my Gerard Butler 300 face (see avatar) and storm off.

My point to all this? Please stick around, it's a good community! Don't sweat stuff getting moved around or edited, it can suck when your joke post worked so well in the flow of the thread but that's the odd beauty of it. Roll with it like it's a challenge and determine your next post will be so funny the mods don't dare move it!


----------



## Guest

Lovesword said:


> Don't worry friend, the many posts of mine in this thread are about 90% from other threads where I'd gotten us way off topic... our mod team here does a good job of trying to keep each thread clean and on topic so the informative "meat" is readily available without much sifting. I admit at first I was like "Where the hell did my post go?" but then I realized the method to their modness (Dear god this is clever... kudos me).
> 
> As an example, look no further than the latest software update threads that get inundated with "I got it!" posts. Hard to moderate excitement but the threads intentions are to be informative about what's changed/updated, and so I go to them thinking I'll get some info on the update but instead see tons of "got it!" posts. Then I make my Gerard Butler 300 face (see avatar) and storm off.
> 
> My point to all this? Please stick around, it's a good community! Don't sweat stuff getting moved around or edited, it can suck when your joke post worked so well in the flow of the thread but that's the odd beauty of it. Roll with it like it's a challenge and determine your next post will be so funny the mods don't dare move it!


Ok, I understand your point, but there is another thing here as well. Most posts/threads are not complete, because it bleeds to death. The forum should find a way to solve the problem, cause the forum could be a very informative platform for users. And the moderators should stick to their own rules.


----------



## garsh

Peter Stringa said:


> Most posts/threads are not complete, because it bleeds to death.


I don't know what that's supposed to mean. It's not an English idiom. What is bleeding here? Are you proposing that off-topic posts somehow complete them?


> And the moderators should stick to their own rules.


Which rules are we violating? I will attempt to correct such oversight.


----------



## garsh

Peter Stringa said:


> I thought you'd moved this conversation to a private place. Now it seems it still is in a public place, where everybody can read along and rate this.
> I think that is wrong of you, moderators! Cause this conversation is Off Topic!!!!!!!!!!


I never once stated that we were in a private conversation.
Are you trying to be funny? I mean, all of these posts are in the "off topic" thread, so that seems like you may have meant it to be a joke.


----------



## Guest

garsh said:


> I never once stated that we were in a private conversation.
> Are you trying to be funny? I mean, all of these posts are in the "off topic" thread, so that seems like you may have meant it to be a joke.


 No, I am not trying to be funny. That should be displaced. Club rules are that when posts are off topic they should be replaced to another off topic place than where the original on topic content was. Our whole discussion was never moved and was and still is in the same place of the on topic content; as well as my first off topic posts, of which was said by Mod post GDN that it was deleted.

But I still want to quit as a member. If you can't because you, as a club, don't have the technical of methodical posibilities for unscribing members you're having illegal practices. Privacywise I have the right to be unscribed as a member. So, as a club, make sure I will be unscribed as a member.


----------



## GDN

Peter Stringa said:


> No, I am not trying to be funny. That should be displaced. Club rules are that when posts are off topic they should be replaced to another off topic place than where the original on topic content was. Our whole discussion was never moved and was and still is in the same place of the on topic content; as well as my first off topic posts, of which was said by Mod post GDN that it was deleted.
> 
> But I still want to quit as a member. If you can't because you, as a club, don't have the technical of methodical posibilities for unscribing members you're having illegal practices. Privacywise I have the right to be unscribed as a member. So, as a club, make sure I will be unscribed as a member.


I've not been on a lot the last 2 days and have missed most of this conversation. In a rush I did delete some comments a few days back at the request that they were getting off topic. They were indeed off topic. I likely did the wrong thing by deleting them, but within a few hours another mod had undeleted them and then appropriately moved them here to the off topic thread. This has been a practice for a while and I did the wrong thing by deleting them.

The posts do exist however at post 541 of this very thread. They had nothing to do with the thread they were moved from and another mod covered my mis-step of initially deleting them.

It is a fact that there are newer members to that thread and there was a request for us to keep the thread on topic and several other member liked the fact that I had done what I did to keep it on track.

We've all been guilty of making comments a bit off topic in threads at times, but we do our best to steer them back on topic, especially an important current topic thread. Adding fluff and non on-topic posts to a thread just to keep them active is not the way to do it.


----------



## Guest

GDN said:


> I've not been on a lot the last 2 days and have missed most of this conversation. In a rush I did delete some comments a few days back at the request that they were getting off topic. They were indeed off topic. I likely did the wrong thing by deleting them, but within a few hours another mod had undeleted them and then appropriately moved them here to the off topic thread. This has been a practice for a while and I did the wrong thing by deleting them.
> 
> The posts do exist however at post 541 of this very thread. They had nothing to do with the thread they were moved from and another mod covered my mis-step of initially deleting them.
> 
> It is a fact that there are newer members to that thread and there was a request for us to keep the thread on topic and several other member liked the fact that I had done what I did to keep it on track.
> 
> We've all been guilty of making comments a bit off topic in threads at times, but we do our best to steer them back on topic, especially an important current topic thread. Adding fluff and non on-topic posts to a thread just to keep them active is not the way to do it.


This discussion is done. You obviously know what went wrong and that is a good thing. You can correct it in future.

Just one more thing. This club is a international club with members all over the world with different mentalities. As moderators you cannot write things with only the direct and hard North American mentality in mind.
Things like : "or to here shouldn't be looked at as penalizing someone or telling them to quit participating" or "as penalizing someone or telling them to quit participating" have even in the English language a different meaning in other parts of the world. For instance in The South of England (GB); Kent Dorset, Devon and Cornwall. And when someone else writes again: "I trust you know the concept of Signal-to-noise ratio, it only is a confirmation of the polite request to quit as a member.
Can you bring this up in a internal discussion about communicating?

But I do still have the request of being unscribed as a member of this forum. I have privacy rights over this. I do not want my personal data on this forum and all of its pages and threads anymore.
So can you, in collaboration with all the moderators and Trevor make sure members can be unscribed of this forum?!


----------



## garsh

Peter Stringa said:


> As moderators you cannot write things with only the direct and hard North American mentality in mind.


That's the first time I've heard North American speech described as "direct" or "hard".


> And when someone else writes again: "I trust you know the concept of Signal-to-noise ratio, it only is a confirmation of the polite request to quit as a member.


Nope, that is not what that phrase means at all. And I really can't understand how you would equate it in that fashion.


> But I do still have the request of being unscribed as a member of this forum. I have privacy rights over this. I do not want my personal data on this forum and all of its pages and threads anymore.


Duly noted. We will be sure to delete all of your personal data.
That's not a lever that we moderators have easy access to, so please give us some time.


----------



## Dr. J

<insert horse beating graphic here>


----------



## JWardell

I've mentioned this before, but after reading through the latest posts in this what become a recycle bin of a thread, Peter does illustrate a need for this forum to have more opportunities for banter, rambling, and general off-topic how-was-your-day discussions. I've seen this work very well elsewhere to the point that many users became very close friends in real life. I think this is more idea by region as users are more likely to meet each other, but it would be nice to have some outlet of a thread to be goofy or talk about life's randomness. It helps make a community. This thread might have been it for a while but it's now become the place to dump things from other threads and makes it unreadable at times. I'm not sure what the best solution is but I certainly don't want to see us losing people when we should be doing the opposite.


----------



## MelindaV

JWardell said:


> I've mentioned this before, but after reading through the latest posts in this what become a recycle bin of a thread, Peter does illustrate a need for this forum to have more opportunities for banter, rambling, and general off-topic how-was-your-day discussions. I've seen this work very well elsewhere to the point that many users became very close friends in real life. I think this is more idea by region as users are more likely to meet each other, but it would be nice to have some outlet of a thread to be goofy or talk about life's randomness. It helps make a community. This thread might have been it for a while but it's now become the place to dump things from other threads and makes it unreadable at times. I'm not sure what the best solution is but I certainly don't want to see us losing people when we should be doing the opposite.


That is what this forum section is for. This particular thread has always been a collection of relocated posts.
But check out some of the other threads here, many were started (some years ago) with the intention of exactly what you suggest. Or start a new one and kick it off here.
one forum I had previously been on had an OT 'Lounge' thread that people would post just random daily chatter in. If you were going thru and trying to read it for a full conversation it would make no sense and seem totally random to someone that didnt know the people, but for those that did know this person auto-x'd and this guy had a new baby and this one just bought a new house the 'conversation' was awesome. Some posts started other conversations and others didn't, and that was ok and part of its charm.


----------



## Michael Russo

@JWardell , @MelindaV is right... this particular thread serves a very specific purpose (a brief note of memorabilia... I may have inspired her when she moved my first point here two years ago... only reason why I am the OP... )...

Since it is only one out 271 other OT threads, you may find your happiness in one or more of the other ones, or start a new one if you are so inclined...

Have fun!


----------



## Karl Sun

garsh said:


> Tesla announced two things last night:
> 
> Workforce layoffs of 7%





Because Customer Service at Tesla is suddenly working so well now that they need fewer staff???


----------



## Karl Sun

Windows 95 and Nt4 all over again.


----------



## Karl Sun

Sad.


----------



## Karl Sun

Another move that dis-improves [access to] Customer Service??

Bad move. IMHO.

Sad.


----------



## Karl Sun

So Ap is still not ready for prime time?

How will your car get from New York to LA to pick up using Summon unattended?


----------



## Karl Sun

So the Model 3 is now the fastest depreciating car?

Great.


----------



## Frog

Don't know if you US/CAN members are aware of this little initiative from a (future?) german owner: this PowerBI dashboard where any EU member (of this forum only ?) aware of its existence, can enter data about his/her order.
This post so that you can have a look at the trend of orders (flattening). Have a look.


----------



## Rick Steinwand

Maybe too many people are getting sacked.


----------



## panpanbebe

After Tesla screwed loyal customers up, o think their sales will go down


----------



## StreziTom

agdejager said:


> Just emailed with Antonin Kasik of Tesla in Vienna about the Tesla Service Centre in Praque.
> 
> The Tesla service center in Prague will be opened in less than a month.
> It is in Prague - Vysočany as part of Advantage Cars property.
> 
> After that the "Other Europe" ordering maybe can be opened. Maybe.
> 
> Too many maybe's. I am tired of waiting almost 4 months after opening the ordering in Europe.
> Therefore I do not want to wait any longer, and i will try to cancel my "Other Europe" reservation and order through my family in the Netherlands.
> The reservations have been proven to be useless as in other countries in the EU already people without a reservation can already order directly.


I cancelled my reservation a month or so ago, money was on my account within a week. Have been enjoying my Model S since


----------



## Guest

Well, some Tesla fans are actually that aggressive. They do not tolerate any criticism. Similar to some football clubs/fans.
And if you talk too much they will just lock you out.

I definitely agreed that Model S/X will not be able to charge any faster. Looking at 120kW charger curve I can clearly see there is no more room for any more speed.
Model 3 has a window where it actually can charge faster than 120kW. I expected less.


----------



## StreziTom

Konstantinos Kostis said:


> We're talking Model 3 delivery status here. Not interested in Model S conversion stories.


Except you replied to something not belonging here LOL
KMA


----------



## Nautilus

LUXMAN said:


> View attachment 23419


Best part of the post are the white New Balance Sneakers 
https://teslaownersonline.com/threads/insert-foot-into-mouth.10813/#post-194737


----------



## LUXMAN

Nautilus said:


> Best part of the post are the white New Balance Sneakers
> https://teslaownersonline.com/threads/insert-foot-into-mouth.10813/#post-194737
> View attachment 23430


Ok. Damn. That was just me a few days ago :weary:


----------



## MrMannilow

ozzieii said:


> Cool. Many thanks, Nautilus.
> Where does all this info appear; how do you know these dates and prices?
> I got my M3 in Nov '18 with the C stuff. So on Monday I guess I could buy the additional Hardware for $2000, which I'm pretty sure I won't do. Elon has a terrible record of meeting schedules/promises. And I think what I do have is rather Beta. Three times on a trip from Sarasota to Atlanta, plain old autopilot beeped out, like saying "You take it were gonna crash". I don't have confidence to try auto lane change, "navigate".
> Summon only works sporadically. Dog mode won't let my phone connect. Sometime my door won't unlock even though my phone is inches away.
> Do I love my Tesla? Absolutely! My wife of over 50 years isn't perfect either; I love them both.


Lol couldn't agree more. Mine has quirks that I've figured out. Especially the phone key. And despite the horrible customer service I've been getting with constant screen reboots I just love the car enough to put up with it all


----------



## PNWmisty

MrMannilow said:


> Mine has quirks that I've figured out. Especially the phone key.


Your "phone key quirks" are with the phone, not the car. Too many people having consistent phone key results to think otherwise. I can't count the number of people that had issues that vanished as soon as they upgraded their phone.


----------



## MrMannilow

PNWmisty said:


> Your "phone key quirks" are with the phone, not the car. Too many people having consistent phone key results to think otherwise. I can't count the number of people that had issues that vanished as soon as they upgraded their phone.


I'm using a brand new Samsung Note. Both my note 8 and 9 experienced the same issues


----------



## MrMannilow

3V Pilot said:


> I've done some road trips on 90+ days and I don't have exact data but I can tell you that running the AC, driving at 80+mph, the car will go farther than I can. With a full charge I've gone 292 miles with a bit to spare (not much mind you). Also I'm still waiting for the increased range, should be an easy 310 or so after that.


Lol 425+ on ethanol free in my 370z she wasn't thirsty yet and neither was I. We still have a long way to go. Once these evs can do 500 miles ill give up my ice toys


----------



## bryangreene3

It take some more time.


----------



## bryangreene3

I feel like part of the minority because I don't want to wrap my car.


----------



## 3V Pilot

MrMannilow said:


> Lol 425+ on ethanol free in my 370z she wasn't thirsty yet and neither was I. We still have a long way to go. Once these evs can do 500 miles ill give up my ice toys


LOL, looks like all you need is the new roadster, it'll do 600 miles on one charge! In my younger days I'd drive 24 hrs+ straight through with only quick splash and go stops. Back then my 280ZX would go 600 miles on one tank, no way could I handle that now. Also with the car doing most of the "driving" today I feel WAY better in the Model 3 than any road trip in ANY ice vehicle.


----------



## WonkoTheSane

I have to say this. "Antidotal" will cure a poison. "Anecdotal" will tell a story.


----------



## Madmolecule

When your marketing vaporware it’s hard to keep your story straight. They are acting like I am getting a free computer. The reality is they cannot make work with they’ve sold without replacing my computer. It is obvious that what was sold, could never work on the car I purchased. I don’t feel I’m an early adopter of technology just sent early adopter of marketing hype. FSD was not available when I purchased it and it’s not available now. It doesn’t matter what you’re calling it. The price is pure speculative since you can’t determine your true cost until you have made it.

I’m not sure when I’ll get my invite to the early access program or was that just marketing to make us feel better. 

Also, I’m not really thrilled about paying $1500 for the referral/shill program, when I wasn’t even able to use a referral because I ordered it prior to the 3s being included and they wouldn’t let me use it at delivery. The $1500 is what Tesla/Elon said it cost them. Which translates to it costs me. It thought that clearcoat and rust protection was that worst investment I ever made on a new car purchase. But I would rather have that than that referral program.

I can’t believe that the inability to have a coherent strategy helps in the confidence of people making the decision to order one.


----------



## Mobile_Dev

Madmolecule said:


> When your marketing vaporware it's hard to keep your story straight. They are acting like I am getting a free computer. The reality is they cannot make work with they've sold without replacing my computer. It is obvious that what was sold, could never work on the car I purchased. I don't feel I'm an early adopter of technology just sent early adopter of marketing hype. FSD was not available when I purchased it and it's not available now. It doesn't matter what you're calling it. The price is pure speculative since you can't determine your true cost until you have made it.
> 
> I'm not sure when I'll get my invite to the early access program or was that just marketing to make us feel better.
> 
> Also, I'm not really thrilled about paying $1500 for the referral/shill program, when I wasn't even able to use a referral because I ordered it prior to the 3s being included and they wouldn't let me use it at delivery. The $1500 is what Tesla/Elon said it cost them. Which translates to it costs me. It thought that clearcoat and rust protection was that worst investment I ever made on a new car purchase. But I would rather have that than that referral program.
> 
> I can't believe that the inability to have a coherent strategy helps in the confidence of people making the decision to order one.


I agree, I think it will be a moving goal post as the months go by ! From the initial Stop light accuracy I have seen 0/10 lights detected, its going to take a lot more time than they think to make FSD working. At least I heard or read that people in Germany will get some kind of refund or be able to exchange FSD money they paid for Supercharging ? if TESLA is not able to deliver FSD by EOY 2019. I don't think US consumers have that kind of recourse. Ultimately if we don't get what we paid for, we need to be compensated.


----------



## EdisonDrvr

Too bad the USA is so far behind on some regulations. It’s a bummer we can’t get the dynamic brake lights. I remember back in the 80s euro cars got the nice for the times halogen bulb lights while in the US we could only have sealed beam garbage. Hopefully we get the government up to speed on the dynamic lights.


----------



## JasonF

EdisonDrvr said:


> Too bad the USA is so far behind on some regulations. It's a bummer we can't get the dynamic brake lights. I remember back in the 80s euro cars got the nice for the times halogen bulb lights while in the US we could only have sealed beam garbage. Hopefully we get the government up to speed on the dynamic lights.


Though I hope not, I fear that in the U.S. we're one Autopilot crash from a future where Europe has been full self-driving for a decade, and we're still not allowed.


----------



## evannole

srjinatl said:


> I am also running just Teslafi - and was one of the people reporting more than the usual phantom drain and the fact that the car would not sleep for several days after I updated to 8.5. However that behavior has changed - as of last weekend - we went out of town and while the car did not always go to sleep - there were times when it was in idle mode for many hours at a time - the phantom drain slowed to what I would consider a much more normal rate - more like just a few miles or so over a 24 hour period. Since returning home the car has been sleeping more normally - both at work and at home. I have not turned off wifi - that remains on. The only setting change that I made was to turn off the cabin overheat protection completely - I found that it had been set to the "fan only" mode - which I think I had set it to that when I got the car back in November - so pretty sure it had been that way for a while - and so I am not sure that changing it to totally off had anything really to do with the behavior change - probably more of a coincidence than anything else. Not sure I can pin the behavior change on anything more specific than the timing coincidence of updating to 8.5. Perhaps there was more activity going on in the background - perhaps maps updates - after the update to 8.5 - but for whatever reason it has returned to a more normal sleep pattern. I will keep an eye on it over the next week or so and will report back if that changes at all. Wish I could pin the behavior change on something more specific.


I have noticed that you're in Atlanta - actually, Marietta, as am I!

I would actually suggest that you try cabin overheat protection with the AC option selected if you park outside for any length of time in the summer, unless you have a long journey immediately after your parking session, or you park the car for days at a time. The range loss from it really isn't very significant.

I park in full sun near the airport and during the warmest summer days, Cabin Overheat Protection appears to cost me about 15 miles per day, which works out to around 40 cents. YYMV, but I am perfectly willing to pay that to keep the interior at a relatively low temperature for a number of reasons, the main two being: 1) The car can cool down to a comfortable temperature much more quickly and with much less fan noise than it otherwise would. 2) High temperatures are notoriously bad for many electronics, plastics and textiles, so I figure keeping them from getting really, really hot will likely prolong the life of the car and minimize squeaks and creaks that could result from continued expansion and contraction. The electronic in our cars are probably reasonably well rated for high temperatures, but I figure less heat is always better.

I do switch off Cabin Overheat Protection if I am flying somewhere and leaving the car parked at the airport, though since it stops working when the car reaches 20% charge and our house is well within that range, this is probably an unnecessary precaution.

Again, YMMV, but my philosophy is to not obsess about the phantom drain too much and simply enjoy the car and all the unique features it has to offer.

See you around the Marietta Square, perhaps? We are veritable fixtures there.


----------



## SR22pilot

evannole said:


> I have noticed that you're in Atlanta - actually, Marietta, as am I!
> 
> I would actually suggest that you try cabin overheat protection with the AC option selected if you park outside for any length of time in the summer, unless you have a long journey immediately after your parking session, or you park the car for days at a time. The range loss from it really isn't very significant.
> 
> I park in full sun near the airport and during the warmest summer days, Cabin Overheat Protection appears to cost me about 15 miles per day, which works out to around 40 cents. YYMV, but I am perfectly willing to pay that to keep the interior at a relatively low temperature for a number of reasons, the main two being: 1) The car can cool down to a comfortable temperature much more quickly and with much less fan noise than it otherwise would. 2) High temperatures are notoriously bad for many electronics, plastics and textiles, so I figure keeping them from getting really, really hot will likely prolong the life of the car and minimize squeaks and creaks that could result from continued expansion and contraction. The electronic in our cars are probably reasonably well rated for high temperatures, but I figure less heat is always better.
> 
> I do switch off Cabin Overheat Protection if I am flying somewhere and leaving the car parked at the airport, though since it stops working when the car reaches 20% charge and our house is well within that range, this is probably an unnecessary precaution.
> 
> Again, YMMV, but my philosophy is to not obsess about the phantom drain too much and simply enjoy the car and all the unique features it has to offer.
> 
> See you around the Marietta Square, perhaps? We are veritable fixtures there.


I agree. In particular, plastics don't like high heat. The plasticizer evaporates and makes a nasty coating on the inside of the windshield and the plastic slowly becomes brittle.

BTW, there is an Atlanta area Tesla scavenger hunt April 27th.


----------



## srjinatl

evannole said:


> I have noticed that you're in Atlanta - actually, Marietta, as am I!
> 
> I would actually suggest that you try cabin overheat protection with the AC option selected if you park outside for any length of time in the summer, unless you have a long journey immediately after your parking session, or you park the car for days at a time. The range loss from it really isn't very significant.
> 
> I park in full sun near the airport and during the warmest summer days, Cabin Overheat Protection appears to cost me about 15 miles per day, which works out to around 40 cents. YYMV, but I am perfectly willing to pay that to keep the interior at a relatively low temperature for a number of reasons, the main two being: 1) The car can cool down to a comfortable temperature much more quickly and with much less fan noise than it otherwise would. 2) High temperatures are notoriously bad for many electronics, plastics and textiles, so I figure keeping them from getting really, really hot will likely prolong the life of the car and minimize squeaks and creaks that could result from continued expansion and contraction. The electronic in our cars are probably reasonably well rated for high temperatures, but I figure less heat is always better.
> 
> I do switch off Cabin Overheat Protection if I am flying somewhere and leaving the car parked at the airport, though since it stops working when the car reaches 20% charge and our house is well within that range, this is probably an unnecessary precaution.
> 
> Again, YMMV, but my philosophy is to not obsess about the phantom drain too much and simply enjoy the car and all the unique features it has to offer.
> 
> See you around the Marietta Square, perhaps? We are veritable fixtures there.


Yeah - I understand what you are saying - and I normally could not care less about the phantom drain as the range I work with and my daily commute miles leave plenty of room for that. The only reason I was concerned is that I was going out of town and was hoping not to worry about having to take my car to a level 2 charger every day as my schedule there was going to be pretty busy and didn't leave a lot of time for that. That's really the only reason that I was concerned - and hence my query to the group here to see if that had been a problem with this release tied to increase of phantom drain. I will definitely be revisiting the notion of keeping the cabin temp to a reasonable setting during the summer months - since I got my car Nov 1st - I have not had to deal with that issue until recently


----------



## StromTrooperM3

I'm still finding myself using Google Auto and Google music. There UI is great the selection is great. I just wish I could control it by that big fancy screen we have. Besides looking at the speed the other 99% of the display really is useless to me during my usage. I wish we could blank the screen totally out


----------



## TrevorK

I wondered about the timing of this one. It seemed like they opened the floodgates for a wide release, then (mostly) shut them again fairly quickly. Could be they found bugs, but one theory I had was that they flooded the new EAP folks (those who had FSD prior to the price changes).

So, question: I know the first rule of the EAP is don't talk about the EAP, but can anyone who received 12.1 confirm they're NOT in any early-access program?


----------



## Jason Krellner

I'm not in EAP, at least I never signed up. Yet, I did purchase FSD when I bought my car in September.


----------



## TrevorK

Jason Krellner said:


> I'm not in EAP, at least I never signed up. Yet, I did purchase FSD when I bought my car in September.


Interesting. I wonder if it's possible you were placed into early access without knowing it. The (now deleted) blog post that Tesla put up at the beginning of March said that "Customers who previously purchased Full Self-Driving will receive an invitation to Tesla's Early Access Program (EAP)." (You can still see the post at archive.org.)

You never got an email saying you were added to the program?


----------



## Arktctr

TrevorK said:


> I wondered about the timing of this one. It seemed like they opened the floodgates for a wide release, then (mostly) shut them again fairly quickly. Could be they found bugs, but one theory I had was that they flooded the new EAP folks (those who had FSD prior to the price changes).
> 
> So, question: I know the first rule of the EAP is don't talk about the EAP, but can anyone who received 12.1 confirm they're NOT in any early-access program?


I have AP/FSD and have 12.1. I'm not in any early access program that I know of.


----------



## TrevorK

Arktctr said:


> I have AP/FSD and have 12.1. I'm not in any early access program that I know of.


Did you pay for FSD before March 1?


----------



## Arktctr

TrevorK said:


> Did you pay for FSD before March 1?


Nope. Purchased FSD on March 11.


----------



## Lgkahn

Yes bought car with fsd last Oct.


----------



## Jason Krellner

TrevorK said:


> Interesting. I wonder if it's possible you were placed into early access without knowing it. The (now deleted) blog post that Tesla put up at the beginning of March said that "Customers who previously purchased Full Self-Driving will receive an invitation to Tesla's Early Access Program (EAP)." (You can still see the post at archive.org.)
> 
> You never got an email saying you were added to the program?


No email or other notification of me being added to EAP. But I was the 25th Model 3 to receive the release. I also use TeslaFi and have no intent to stop using it (I'd rather use it than be part of EAP).


----------



## Artdept

mellidavid said:


> Im very much impressed with this post.....


Im very much impressed with your avatar.


----------



## Ed Woodrick

There are literally thousands of trip reports by owners of EVs other than Tesla with ranges much less. My 88 mile Leaf took a 140 mile trip. My newer 150 mile Leaf took a 500 mile trip.
I’m currently on a 800 mile trip in LR RWD 3, but have taken a 1700 mile trip and about to take another in a few weeks 

All you have to do is get from charger to charger


----------



## jamesEarl15

Ed Woodrick said:


> There are literally thousands of trip reports by owners of EVs other than Tesla with ranges much less. My 88 mile Leaf took a 140 mile trip. My newer 150 mile Leaf took a 500 mile trip.
> I'm currently on a 800 mile trip in LR RWD 3, but have taken a 1700 mile trip and about to take another in a few weeks
> 
> All you have to do is get from charger to charger


You are the real MVP for that lol


----------



## Ed Woodrick

jamesEarl15 said:


> You are the real MVP for that lol


Jest if you want, but lots of people still haven't quite got that concept down. Lots of folks have range anxiety and don't think they can go hardly anywhere


----------



## garsh

Ed Woodrick said:


> All you have to do is get from charger to charger


Road tripping a Model 3 SR+ is going to be a very different experience from road-tripping a Leaf. Range is greater, and charging times are faster. The charging stations you use are different, and located in different areas.

I've road-tripped my LR car as well. Much, MUCH different (and infinitely better) experience than the few 100+ mile trips I tried taking in my Leaf. Those were terrible experiences.


----------



## kort6776

PNWmisty said:


> I'm not accustomed to feeling helpless, especially when a big truck with monster mudders straddles two charging spots. I used to write polite notes on paper and leave it under the wiper. However, the notes can become illegible from rain and sometimes I run out of notepaper. The discovery of Auction Pro Permanent Glass Markers was the obvious solution:
> 
> https://www.markingpendepot.com/glass-and-windshield-markers.aspx
> 
> Fortunately, they are really not permanent, a sharp razor and a little bit of elbow grease cleans it right off! Make sure the note is friendly and polite!


advocating vandalism?


----------



## PNWmisty

kort6776 said:


> advocating vandalism?


If the State Patrol "vandalizes" broken down cars on the side of the highway by writing on their windshields with a windshield marker, then, yes, I'm advocating vandalism.


----------



## PNWmisty

whitslack said:


> It's times like these that I want to apply for a software engineering job at Tesla just so I can fix these annoyances.


It would do more good to apply for a software engineering job at OnePlus. But then you might have to move to Shenzen, China.

Funny story: For the first time ever, my wife's phone failed to unlock her Model 3. We've owned her RWD since May 2018 and mine since September 2018 and the walk away/up lock/unlock has always worked flawless with our two Samsung phones (S8+ and S9). My phones Tesla app was on my P3D and as we tried to get in the screen instructed us to use the keycard. My wife was digging through her purse for her emergency keycard which she has never had to use. I told her to give me her phone. The Tesla app was running, I brought it to the foreground and the door still wouldn't open. Puzzled, I swiped down from the top of the screen to bring up the settings. The Bluetooth radio was turned off. Turning it on allowed the door to open and all was good again in Teslaland.

In my experience, if the Bluetooth lock/unlock ever doesn't work, it's the phone, not the Model 3.


----------



## SalisburySam

Bought EAP and FSD when I got my 3 last July. No invitation to join anything. Not in early access. Updated firmware to 12.1.1 three days ago...updated again yesterday to 12.1.2.


----------



## kort6776

PNWmisty said:


> If the State Patrol "vandalizes" broken down cars on the side of the highway by writing on their windshields with a windshield marker, then, yes, I'm advocating vandalism.


2+2=7? one has absolutely nothing to do with the other. advocating criminality doesn't belong here or anywhere


----------



## PNWmisty

StromTrooperM3 said:


> I think we've been conditioned to settle for less quality as the focus has been shifted to maximize profit at our expense. This goes the same for many products today as well. Furniture is another big one.


Profit margins are actually smaller today, in a world flooded with cheap imported goods. And this change to lower quality goods was not forced on the consumer, the consumer demanded it (by voting with their wallets whenever there was a chance to buy a lower quality product at a lower price).


----------



## HCD3

SalisburySam said:


> At my age, I get more and more blanking episodes as well, usually related to my penchant for olive water.*
> 
> *i.e., vodka martinis.
> 
> On the good side, firmware 8.5 for the first time introduced screen blanking to my Model 3, and 12.1.2 has taken it away, thankfully.


Funny Sam. I used to call Martinis "liquid panty remover ".


----------



## Dale Gardner

PNWmisty said:


> Profit margins are actually smaller today, in a world flooded with cheap imported goods.


Could you provide support for this? I've generally understood corporate profit margins to be strengthening. Certainly as of late, corporations are generating absolutely massive profits and then using that money on stock buybacks (in addition to the copious salaries, bonuses, and option grants already provided to the executives).

https://www.yardeni.com/pub/sp500margin.pdf


----------



## StromTrooperM3

Dale Gardner said:


> Could you provide support for this? I've generally understood corporate profit margins to be strengthening. Certainly as of late, corporations are generating absolutely massive profits and then using that money on stock buybacks (in addition to the copious salaries, bonuses, and option grants already provided to the executives).
> 
> https://www.yardeni.com/pub/sp500margin.pdf


I agree with you but due to your comment being moved I'm doubtful you'll get an answer


----------



## Ed Woodrick

Jb1 said:


> Hello everyone! Any ideas on when the CCS adapter for the Model 3 will be available. I live in Hawaii. We do not have supper charging. So the CCS adapter will be a hit here! Thoughts?


I'm really surprised that Hawaii doesn't have supper charging, since there are no Superchargers, I'd expect everyone to plug in when they get home and then be charging during supper. 

Supper charging is a must better EV experience than Supercharging.


----------



## PNWmisty

Frully said:


> Welcome, and that looks awesome!
> 
> I'm planning to vinyl wrap my aeros with some of my matte glitter vinyl.
> View attachment 25876
> 
> 
> Same area you have painted - wrap then cut along the lines.


Then you will only need a miniature mirrored disco ball hanging from your rearview mirror to complete the look. 









Don't leave your other mistress out of the equation for that special night out on the town:


----------



## Frully

My browser/adblocker (even disabled) won't render anything amazon linked in Canada...not sure what's up with that.









@TrevP Not sure if this is expected -- Even with adblockers disabled in chrome Amazon briefly flashes up in these media tags then fails.



PNWmisty said:


> Then you will only need a miniature mirrored disco ball hanging from your rearview mirror to complete the look.
> 
> View attachment 25877
> 
> Don't leave your other mistress out of the equation for that special night out on the town:


----------



## Mr. Spacely

Statistically the odds of guessing an 8 digit number are one in a hundred million. If it is an 8 digit password (including numbers, letters, and / or special characters) the odds are one in 218 trillion. 40 digit passwords are not any more secure...


----------



## Klaus-rf

casey morgan said:


> Statistically the odds of guessing an 8 digit number are one in a hundred million. If it is an 8 digit password (including numbers, letters, and / or special characters) the odds are one in 218 trillion. 40 digit passwords are not any more secure...


 Sorry to say but you are at least a decade misinformed.

To break an 8 character password, it will take (1.7*10^-6 * 52^8) seconds / 2, or 1.44 years on a single-core 1.5Ghz CPU. On a GPU (or 8-core 3.5Ghz CPU) this would take about 5 days. On a supercomputer or botnet, this would take 7.6 minutes.

Password Length Time to Crack … with special character
10 characters 2 hours 1 week
11 characters 6 days 2 years
12 characters 1 year 2 centuries
13 characters 64 years
...
40 characters a very, very long time

When 50% of the time has passed [to 100% completion], any password is consider "Cracked". For the above example using 12 chars, that time is considered to be 0.5 years whereas 1 year means ALL combinations of 12 chars has been cracked. When using only 12 chars, the pw should be changed at least every 6 months.

I have at least 50 computers here at work with multiple 20-core CPUs and hundred+ Gigs of RAM in them that can make minced meat of 8-character salted password hashes using the full ASCII character set in less than one hour.

8-characters is so 1990's.


----------



## iChris93

Klaus-rf said:


> Sorry to say but you are at least a decade misinformed.
> 
> To break an 8 character password, it will take (1.7*10^-6 * 52^8) seconds / 2, or 1.44 years on a single-core 1.5Ghz CPU. On a GPU (or 8-core 3.5Ghz CPU) this would take about 5 days. On a supercomputer or botnet, this would take 7.6 minutes.
> 
> Password Length Time to Crack … with special character
> 10 characters 2 hours 1 week
> 11 characters 6 days 2 years
> 12 characters 1 year 2 centuries
> 13 characters 64 years
> ...
> 40 characters a very, very long time
> 
> When 50% of the time has passed [to 100% completion], any password is consider "Cracked". For the above example using 12 chars, that time is considered to be 0.5 years whereas 1 year means ALL combinations of 12 chars has been cracked. When using only 12 chars, the pw should be changed at least every 6 months.
> 
> I have at least 50 computers here at work with multiple 20-core CPUs and hundred+ Gigs of RAM in them that can make minced meat of 8-character salted password hashes using the full ASCII character set in less than one hour.
> 
> 8-characters is so 1990's.


Hopefully Tesla's system would not allow this type of brute force cracking.


----------



## Klaus-rf

Can't we say that about every on-line system that's been hacked? "Hopefully ...". Hoping and praying are not on the Secure Settings checklist.

Bottom line is "we the user" have absolutely no control at all on how secure Teslas systems may be. Nor what software they use (and we all know there is no such thing as totally secure software, Right?). I do notice that their site is always rather slow though.

Our only available setting is to use LOOONG, complex passwords and change them frequently (>20 characters, change at least every year). And expire / change associated credit cards at least yearly.


----------



## iChris93

Klaus-rf said:


> Can't we say that about every on-line system that's been hacked?


Yes


----------



## Klaus-rf

casey morgan said:


> Statistically the odds of guessing an 8 digit number are one in a hundred million. If it is an 8 digit password (including numbers, letters, and / or special characters) the odds are one in 218 trillion. 40 digit passwords are not any more secure...


 There is no guessing involved. Modern computers can process >50 million password hashes each second. 218 trillion "guesses" goes by pretty quickly..

If 8 character passwords work for you, go for it.


----------



## garsh

Klaus-rf said:


> To break an 8 character password, it will take (1.7*10^-6 * 52^8) seconds / 2, or 1.44 years on a single-core 1.5Ghz CPU. On a GPU (or 8-core 3.5Ghz CPU) this would take about 5 days. On a supercomputer or botnet, this would take 7.6 minutes.


In order to actually break the password, that computer needs access to the stored password hash.
That would require the attacker to have broken into Tesla's network and to have gained access to the password hash storage.
Which can happen (and has happened in the past). But without that access, brute forcing is not viable. The network API is too slow.


----------



## adam m

Daryl said:


> 2019.16.1.1 is going almost exclusively to AP 1 or no AP vehicles. 2019.16.1 is hitting AP 2.5 vehicles.


Careful your post might get deleted for "speculation"


----------



## Gatica

This "Relocated off-topic conversations" doesn't seem very useful. It's like the moderators want to delete posts but not deal with possible backlash of deleting posts so they just banish the posts to this thread.


----------



## MelindaV

Gatica said:


> This "Relocated off-topic conversations" doesn't seem very useful. It's like the moderators want to delete posts but not deal with possible backlash of deleting posts so they just banish the posts to this thread.


if threads were not taken off topic, posts would not need to be moved.


----------



## Madmolecule

SalisburySam said:


> Bought EAP and FSD when I got my 3 last July. No invitation to join anything. Not in early access. Updated firmware to 12.1.1 three days ago...updated again yesterday to 12.1.2.


I'm in the same boat. At the beginning of the year were we told by tweet that the early adopters, that bought before the discount, would be invited to early access. Six months later no invite. I received my last update in the bottom 3%, according to Teslafi. If I get the promised new computer I think it will be next year. Elon has stated that there is no need to update the computers until the software is ready. I hope I don't get the email that the FSD with limited functionality will work on old computers so no need to upgrade. There is nothing contractual that obligates Tesla to either. Who needs a contract when you can have a tweet.


----------



## garsh

Gatica said:


> This "Relocated off-topic conversations" doesn't seem very useful. It's like the moderators want to delete posts but not deal with possible backlash of deleting posts so they just banish the posts to this thread.


I like to think of it as preserving posts while keeping certain threads on-topic.


----------



## Madmolecule

garsh said:


> I like to think of it as preserving posts while keeping certain threads on-topic.


This might work better if you created a topic for each off-topic threads instead of dumping them into the no-zip sorting bin. It just looks like they are not worthy, not just off topic


----------



## garsh

Madmolecule said:


> This might work better if you created a topic for each off-topic threads instead of dumping them into the no-zip sorting bin. It just looks like they are not worthy, not just off topic


Or, the original posters could spend a little more time to put things in a correct topic.
But...


----------



## StromTrooperM3

Catchymoon said:


> maybe in America but certantily not in Norway


Certainly not for me. Customer service is awful. I buy on customer service and I'll be not buying anymore. My car is riddled with paint issues that they won't repair because I'm out of the 500 mile window to report them.

My issue is they told me they would deliver me the car. They last minute said I had to come pick it up. I had to drive the car home over 500 miles, so by that logic I "used up my window" to report issues because I drove it home. I wish I had more thumbs because 2 down isn't even close to enough


----------



## Misanthropic Mike

Wait, where am I posting from now?


----------



## Misanthropic Mike

MelindaV said:


> because all your posts are from MA


My phones and computers use a VPN, but my work computer doesn't. I often do VPN into my work computer though.


----------



## airbusav8r

🤷‍♀️ Did no one read the terms of service? I’ve heard barely anything of .16.2 and everything of AP. It is not phantom breaking; that is a series of (not alone to Airbus) 4K+ operations per second determining if your car should turn or not. Either you come up with something better, work at Tesla Engineering, or shut up...


----------



## EBMCS03

garsh said:


> Do you realize that any time you bought a new car in the past, the price of that same exact model became lower less than a year later? Does it feel different when the MSRP remains the same and the incentives are harder to discover? I just bought a 2018 Chevy Volt for almost $10,000 below MSRP. Why aren't people complaining about getting screwed by Chevy when they bought one last month for thousands more?
> 
> Tesla is trying to increase production, reduce costs of production, and produce enough profit to cover their R&D expenses & grow the EV market.


Car devalue is different than Tesla Lowering the MSRP and forcing additional devaluation for me.

That sale is different. You're buying a expired no longer being produced volt.

The volt still shows MSRP being the same and discount to take cars off the lot.

Tesla does that also and screws people over by lowering the MSRP and lowering AutoPilot price when they said it will be higher. It was not. It was lower and rewarded those who didn't buy it.

Brainwashed Tesla people will think nothing tesla can do is wrong. Everything is right.

Doesn't matter what you say. It's the perception I got and other people got. Tesla can't succeed running a business like this. I do not trust them anymore and lots of ppl are the same boat.


----------



## TwoK4drSi

EBMCS03 said:


> Car devalue is different than Tesla Lowering the MSRP and forcing additional devaluation for me.
> 
> That sale is different. You're buying a expired no longer being produced volt.
> 
> The volt still shows MSRP being the same and discount to take cars off the lot.
> 
> Tesla does that also and screws people over by lowering the MSRP and lowering AutoPilot price when they said it will be higher. It was not. It was lower and rewarded those who didn't buy it.
> 
> Brainwashed Tesla people will think nothing tesla can do is wrong. Everything is right.
> 
> Doesn't matter what you say. It's the perception I got and other people got. Tesla can't succeed running a business like this. I do not trust them anymore and lots of ppl are the same boat.


I seriously need a power increase. Getting bored with the power RN LOL


----------



## EBMCS03

TwoK4drSi said:


> I seriously need a power increase. Getting bored with the power RN LOL


They'll give it to you and screw with the P owners. It'll happen. History will repeat itself.


----------



## DennisP

casey morgan said:


> I went to the Tampa Bay Rays game last night and "Mr. Spacely" pretty much drove me home. The highway ramp is 2 blocks from the parking lot. I hit NOAP and "home." It immediately changed out of the passing lane, then a mile later exited HWY375 onto HWY275. It found the correct lane over the next mile or two where on-ramps come and go from both sides of the road. Then as I exited at 54th Avenue South it slowed down for the steep right hand turn and dropped into regular AP. I stayed in the left lane and it drove me through the SunPass lane on the toll booth and over two little bridges to Pinellas Bayway South. Here I had to disengage for a quick 90 degree left turn at the traffic light. I put it back into AP and (here's the amazing part) it navigated through a very tough road construction area. They are building a new Tierra Verde bridge and it is a mess. It is a very narrow, one lane, winding detour that most folks handle at about 35MPH. Trucks and boat trailers barely make it through. Since there was no oncoming traffic I wanted to see what would happen and flew through at night at 45MPH. Two weeks ago it couldn't take this section of road at 35MPH. So on a 12 mile trip with numerous obstacles I only had to touch the wheel or pedals once for a left turn. 2019.16.2 is a real improvement...


Wait, you lost me when you said you went to a Rays game?...


----------



## Mr. Spacely

DennisP said: "Wait, you lost me when you said you went to a Rays game?..."

I was the only one there, but we won...


----------



## mswlogo

evannole said:


> Despite my misgivings about phantom braking and the general uselessness of NOA, I overall love EAP and think it works very well. I also am very happy with the auto wipers; I almost never activate them manually except for occasionally pushing the button on the stalk when it's misting.
> 
> I, too, had a VW CC before my Model 3. The CC was the worst car I have ever had, without question. I was so glad to get rid of it.


Bet yours had the dual clutch automatic. VW CC was pretty good to us. We had 110K Extended Warranty on it. Never got to use it. Sold it with a 110K.
Had the defective flap valve on the intake (known issue that VW increased 100K miles coverage on the issue), ours was covered by 3yr/36K mile warranty.
At 70K it had to have the gunk cleaned out of intakes (also a known issue, not covered, which was irritating, it's a $700 job). Original tires (run flats) were not the best.
Other than that, the car was flawless. It was a stick 2.0T and my wife could hyper mile it to 38 mpg (with a few extra pounds in the tires).
Still looked great and ran great when we sold it. I don't recall ever even doing a brake job on it. It was all highway and she knew how to use a stick (better than her teacher (me)).
99 Passat before it was almost flawless (early throttle body sensor and a stuck rear caliper, both covered). Then 12 years and 230K (also a stick, original clutch, longitudinal V6 2.8L).
Sold it in perfect running order.


----------



## evannole

mswlogo said:


> Bet yours had the dual clutch automatic. VW CC was pretty good to us. We had 110K Extended Warranty on it. Never got to use it. Sold it with a 110K.
> Had the defective flap valve on the intake (known issue that VW increased 100K miles coverage on the issue), ours was covered by 3yr/36K mile warranty.
> At 70K it had to have the gunk cleaned out of intakes (also a known issue, not covered, which was irritating, it's a $700 job). Original tires (run flats) were not the best.
> Other than that, the car was flawless. It was a stick 2.0T and my wife could hyper mile it to 38 mpg (with a few extra pounds in the tires).
> Still looked great and ran great when we sold it. I don't recall ever even doing a brake job on it. It was all highway and she knew how to use a stick (better than her teacher (me)).
> 99 Passat before it was almost flawless (early throttle body sensor and a stuck rear caliper, both covered). Then 12 years and 230K (also a stick, original clutch, longitudinal V6 2.8L).
> Sold it in perfect running order.


Yup, 2.0T with DSG. I would have preferred a stick but wanted nav and a backup camera, so had to take the dual-clutch automated manual. Dreadful transmission. Never shifted or downshifted at the right times, so almost always felt like it was in the wrong gear. Good luck making a quick left turn at 15-20 mph when the transmission already has you in 3rd or 4th. But the biggest issue was the maintenance. It needed two essentially full fuel system replacements (high and low pressure pumps plus control module each time) and a replacement backup camera. The second backup camera was starting to act up just as I traded in the car. Oh, what a mess it was. Very pretty car, but an absolute mess from a reliability perspective.


----------



## mswlogo

Mad Hungarian said:


> SoFla has 19", where the P7+ is offered in identical replacement spec. However the reason they're not showing the Plus version in 18" is because that size doesn't have the 98 XL (Extra Load) load index of your OE tire, it's a lower 94 SL (Standard Load) load index. A lot of distributors won't sell you a tire that has a lower load index number, but in the case of Model 3 this doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me as the Performance model comes OE on a 20" with a 92 load index, which is still more than enough to carry the car's weight.
> I see no issues using the 235/45R18 P7+ if you wanted to.


Be a little careful with that logic because stresses may be different with different aspect ratios. Also tires are not chosen just on the weight of the car they can support. They might be fine but it's hard to know if they are appropriate for every metric Tesla spec'd the Primacy's at.


----------



## mswlogo

evannole said:


> Yup, 2.0T with DSG. I would have preferred a stick but wanted nav and a backup camera, so had to take the dual-clutch automated manual. Dreadful transmission. Never shifted or downshifted at the right times, so almost always felt like it was in the wrong gear. Good luck making a quick left turn at 15-20 mph when the transmission already has you in 3rd or 4th. But the biggest issue was the maintenance. It needed two essentially full fuel system replacements (high and low pressure pumps plus control module each time) and a replacement backup camera. The second backup camera was starting to act up just as I traded in the car. Oh, what a mess it was. Very pretty car, but an absolute mess from a reliability perspective.


That's right, the stick was only available on the base sport model. It was worth it . Nav is useless without live Traffic. My wife ran Nav (Google Maps) every day on her 50 mile commute to monitor traffic and route around it. Almost added that OEM backup camera. Some folks did.


----------



## mswlogo

P-Lo801 said:


> I posted this in the wheel/tyre thread, so i'll repost it for additional information, to help me make a better informed decision.
> 
> These are my priorities in this order:
> 
> 1. Range - no less than what i'm currently getting with OE MXM4
> 2. Comfort/noise - willing to take a hit on this knowing that I will not be getting Tesla tires with the foam inserts, but the least possible noise increase preferred
> 3. Performance - basically want tires that can handle the torque the same way the OEM MXM4s do. I like that when I want to launch it to show off my car's 0-60 to passengers, I get no screeching. I also want it to be able to handle the occasional spirited driving through twists and curves. I will not be doing any tracking on this whatsoever.
> 
> Here's what i've narrowed down my choices to:
> 
> Continental PureContact LS - i'm leaning towards this because I think it checks off on all of my priorities above. The bonus is that it weighs a little over 23lbs. Combined with the 19" wheels that I just got (forgestar CF5V), which are 20lbs, i'll shave off more than 3lbs each corner compared to my OEM aero setup.
> 
> Vredestein Quatrac 5 - Based on the number of reviews on tirerack, these have significantly more than the PureContact LS, and are 3-peak mountain snowflake certified. The cost is also a huge plus. According to the reviews i've read, these can be regarded as summer friendly winter tires. My only hesitation is the weight, which is 26lbs. Would it really make a difference compared to weighing 3lbs more than the LS?
> 
> Pirelli Cinturato P7 All Season Plus - Has the most reviews, and what really catches my attention is the ratings on noise and comfort. Plus, it seems to offer the same performance and range as the other two above. Cost is between the other two as well. Only downside is the wet weather performance, but it's not like i'll be driving spiritedly during rainy conditions anyway.


You can have bald snow tires and the car won't screech on launch.


----------



## P-Lo801

mswlogo said:


> You can have bald snow tires and the car won't screech on launch.


I was wondering that too because of how sophisticated the traction control is on these cars. So I guess I can change that priority to performance and handling for the occasional spirited driving through the mountains/canyons.


----------



## Guest

Some cars, for example Nissan Leaf.. allows air naturally to move through the HVAC system (while fan is off). Though 70km/h or more is needed.
What I can say is that fan at low settings (less than 1/4) consumes very very little power). Up to 0,5% of the whole range.


----------



## mswlogo

Mad Hungarian said:


> Actually the overall handling and traction characteristics are FAR more affected by choices in the carcass shape, construction materials, compound... hell, even minor adjustments to belt tension will change how the car responds.
> The minute you replace the OEM tires with anything else other than the identical units you are for sure going to have a different outcome. The load index is just one of many such variables but choosing a lower one that still suits exceeds the vehicle's GAWR requirements when correctly inflated is not inherently problematic. I've tested plenty of vehicles with lower LI tires that performed admirably and others with tires that had the OE LI but performed markedly worse in many areas. This is why having an open forum discussing real world experiences with making different choices in the same size so valuable.


Sorry but your way off here.

The load capacity of the tire is based on the Max tire pressure. If you put 20% below max pressure then you have to derate the load capacity. You don't do this by trial and error and that it "feels good".

Tires are also purposely over spec'd for extra stresses they expect that car to experience.

I suggest reading forums like this with much more knowledgeable people.

https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1650808


----------



## Mad Hungarian

mswlogo said:


> Sorry but your way off here.
> 
> The load capacity of the tire is based on the Max tire pressure. If you put 20% below max pressure then you have to derate the load capacity. You don't do this by trial and error and that it "feels good".
> 
> Tires are also purposely over spec'd for extra stresses they expect that car to experience.
> 
> I suggest reading forums like this with much more knowledgeable people.
> 
> https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1650808


Um, @mswlogo I hate to break it to you but this subject matter is not exactly something I just play around with in my spare time. Since you've only been on the forum for 8 months let me explain in a little more detail what I do for a living...

My name is Ian Pavelko and I'm Director of Technical Services at Fastco, Canada's largest manufacturer of alloy wheels.
My principle duties there include overseeing our vehicle data acquisition program, development of our proprietary wheel and tire application software, providing design guidance to our Product Development team and technical training for our both staff and clients. I also validate every single new product we develop for the OEM partner programs we have with Kia, Hyundai, Nissan, Mitsubishi and Mazda, and work regularly with the engineers at these companies to ensure that the extensive range of wheel and tire packages that offer them respond to their very exacting criteria.
Regarding the particular matter of changing tire load indexes and inflation pressures, back in 2015 I worked with Dr. John Daws - one of the world's foremost experts in tire engineering and forensics - to create a specific document to explain best practices on the subject for our clients, which I just uploaded here so you or anyone else interested in the subject may access.
Please let me know if you have any questions.


----------



## mswlogo

Mad Hungarian said:


> Um, @mswlogo I hate to break it to you but this subject matter is not exactly something I just play around with in my spare time. Since you've only been on the forum for 8 months let me explain in a little more detail what I do for a living...
> 
> My name is Ian Pavelko and I'm Director of Technical Services at Fastco, Canada's largest manufacturer of alloy wheels.
> My principle duties there include overseeing our vehicle data acquisition program, development of our proprietary wheel and tire application software, providing design guidance to our Product Development team and technical training for our both staff and clients. I also validate every single new product we develop for the OEM partner programs we have with Kia, Hyundai, Nissan, Mitsubishi and Mazda, and work regularly with the engineers at these companies to ensure that the extensive range of wheel and tire packages that offer them respond to their very exacting criteria.
> Regarding the particular matter of changing tire load indexes and inflation pressures, back in 2015 I worked with Dr. John Daws - one of the world's foremost experts in tire engineering and forensics - to create a specific document to explain best practices on the subject for our clients, which I just uploaded here so you or anyone else interested in the subject may access.
> Please let me know if you have any questions.


Even if your technically correct, I doubt your a lawyer too and there legal/liability ramifications of running under rated tires.

I'll stick with Tesla's specifications. Since I doubt you'll take on the liability or warranty in the event of a blow out (which could even happen with an up to spec tire) when the insurance company, Tesla or an injured party finds out I was running an underspeced tire.

Most shops won't install underrated tires because they don't want the liability either.

Folks can decide for themselves if they want to take your advice over Tesla's.


----------



## garsh

mswlogo said:


> Even if your technically correct, I doubt your a lawyer too


So basically you're saying that we should take your advice over that of a wheel and tire expert because... the wheel and tire expert is not also a lawyer.

Got it.


----------



## mswlogo

garsh said:


> So basically you're saying that we should take your advice over that of a wheel and tire expert because... the wheel and tire expert is not also a lawyer.
> 
> Got it.


No, I said stay with Tesla's, TireRacks, and most good tire shops that would never let a customer do this. You don't have the inside technical information of why they chose those load ranges. If anything for liability reasons alone.


----------



## garsh

mswlogo said:


> No, I said stay with Tesla's, TireRacks, and most good tire shops that would never let a customer do this. You don't have the inside technical information of why they chose those load ranges.


Correct. You don't have that "inside technical information". I don't have that "inside technical information".

Do you know who does have that "inside technical information"?
Do you know who has so much of that "inside technical information" that various automobile manufacturers come to him so that he can tell _them _some of that "inside technical information"?

Go ahead. I'll give you one guess.


----------



## mswlogo

garsh said:


> Correct. You don't have that "inside technical information". I don't have that "inside technical information".
> 
> Do you know who does have that "inside technical information"?
> Do you know who has so much of that "inside technical information" that various automobile manufacturers come to him so that he can tell _them _some of that "inside technical information"?
> 
> Go ahead. I'll give you one guess.


Who will my insurance company use?

I'll give you one guess.


----------



## fritter63

so, how many days do you get between rain storms up there? 



MelindaV said:


> spent half of yesterday cleaning and polishing, topped it off this morning with Opticoat GlossCoat
> 
> View attachment 26475


----------



## MelindaV

fritter63 said:


> so, how many days do you get between rain storms up there?


we've had less rain over the last month than you have.


----------



## fritter63

MelindaV said:


> we've had less rain over the last month than you have.


And it's really pissing me off! Weeds keep growing, and if I wanted this much rain, I'd move to where it's cheap to live!


----------



## mswlogo

garsh said:


> I never said that.
> 
> Am I not allowed to give a differing opinion without you taking it personally?


Your telling folks to not trust my opinion is not an opinion on the topic. I think it's hard to trust people that can't come up with a technical counter argument and instead they go after their character.


----------



## garsh

mswlogo said:


> Your telling folks to not trust my opinion is not an opinion on the topic. I think it's hard to trust people that can't come up with a technical counter argument and instead they go after their character.


I never said anything bad about your character.

You've never given _anything_ technical in your argument. All you've said is that you get good economy with different tires on 19" wheels. You've never explained how you determined that or your testing methodology. Then you incorrectly assumed that this disproves the information in the chart. You tell everybody to ignore a chart where someone spent time and energy to provide detailed technical information. I've explained that you were simply using the information in the chart incorrectly, and conceded that the chart should have explained better how those numbers were arrived and what information the chart was trying to convey. Yet you continue to tell people to ignore the chart, despite my best efforts to clarify that the chart is fine when you understand how the numbers were obtained.

I'm not sure what else to say. Please re-read my comments. I've never said anything bad about your character. Please don't take counter-arguments to your position personally. We're allowed to have differing opinions here.


----------



## MJJ

JasonF said:


> Is it actually styrofoam? The stuff that looks like styrofoam inside the bumpers in a lot of cars is actually _much_ heavier, surprisingly so, because it's a denser closed-cell foam. They (and Tesla, likely) use it because it's lightweight and corrosion-proof, and it can take a beating without deforming or shattering. Ironically, depending on the design and formula, it's sometimes more expensive than plastic or aluminum for the same purpose.


I'm not a foam guy, so if it looks like styrofoam, I call it styrofoam.

Call a paddle an oar, or vice versa, however, and I'm on you like stink on a pig.


----------



## hydrofied714

MJJ said:


> I'm not a foam guy, so if it looks like styrofoam, I call it styrofoam.
> 
> Call a paddle an oar, or vice versa, however, and I'm on you like stink on a pig.


What do you call football?


----------



## MJJ

hydrofied714 said:


> What do you call football?


Boring (American) or incomprehensible (Soccer). What's that got to do with styrofoam?


----------



## Love

MJJ said:


> Boring (American) or incomprehensible (Soccer). What's that got to do with styrofoam?


When you're watching foosball (which is of the devil), drinking heavily from your extruded polystyrene foam cup because it's incomprehensiboring, you have to be careful or you can end up a creek with no oars.


----------



## SalisburySam

@Lovesword, you had me at "incomprehensiboring." Still snorting coffee from the laughter!


----------



## Dr. J

SalisburySam said:


> "incomprehensiboring."


Crap, now I have to "Watch" the Relocated Off-topic Conversations thread so I don't miss anything. Particularly new vocabulary.


----------



## garsh

Dr. J said:


> Crap, now I have "Watch" the Relocated Off-topic Conversations thread so I don't miss anything. Particularly new vocabulary.


Everybody should watch this thread.
All of the good posts end up here. :yum:


----------



## MJJ

Dr. J said:


> Crap, now I have "Watch" the Relocated Off-topic Conversations thread so I don't miss anything. Particularly new vocabulary.


And, thanks to overzealous thread disassembly/post relocation, you also have to have an encyclopedic knowledge and photographic memory of every thread on the board. Well, only if you like your posts in context.


----------



## MelindaV

MJJ said:


> And, thanks to overzealous thread disassembly/post relocation, you also have to have an encyclopedic knowledge and photographic memory of every thread on the board. Well, only if you like your posts in context.


if posts were in context to the threads they started in, this thread wouldn't be 34 pages long


----------



## MJJ

MelindaV said:


> if posts were in context to the threads they started in, this thread wouldn't be 34 pages long


Obviously, given my comment, I disagree with your premise.

I also disagree that a few self-anointed should be modifying conversations they did not start. In my opinion, the only person entitled to a say in the content of a thread is the person who started it.

After all, this is the Internet.


----------



## MelindaV

this may be the internet, but at least here, there are guidelines and rules.


----------



## Love

MJJ said:


> Obviously, given my comment, I disagree with your premise.
> 
> I also disagree that a few self-anointed should be modifying conversations they did not start. In my opinion, the only person entitled to a say in the content of a thread is the person who started it.
> 
> After all, this is the Internet.


Ah, don't worry about visiting this thread. I live here.

We have awesome chips and salsa... and Stratego.


----------



## Love

MelindaV said:


> this may be the internet, but at least here, there are guidelines and rules.


----------



## Dr. J

Conundrum: The last few posts are on-topic and not relocated.


----------



## garsh

Dr. J said:


> Conundrum: The last few posts are on-topic


----------



## garsh

MJJ said:


> In my opinion, the only person entitled to a say in the content of a thread is the person who started it.


We've been tasked by Trevor to try to keep the forums organized. This ideally allows others to find information on topics without having to scroll past pages of discussion on unrelated matters. So that's what we try to do. Unfortunately, that doesn't match your opinion.



MJJ said:


> And, thanks to overzealous thread disassembly/post relocation, you also have to have an encyclopedic knowledge and photographic memory of every thread on the board. Well, only if you like your posts in context.


Actually, you don't. If somebody _really_ wishes to know why you decided to declare yourself "not a foam guy", they can just look at the post you quoted, and click on the link conveniently included at the top of the quote block to head back to the original thread.


----------



## Dr. J

Life0fstacy said:


> I don't know how we survived some of the stupid crap we did.


Amen to that. When I was 17, I managed to launch my Dad's 2 barrel carburetor, 429 cu. in. gold Ford LTD at an intersection and bottom it out. Didn't quite plant the landing.  That car had a slight lag when you floored it, but man did it have some power!


----------



## MelindaV

Dr. J said:


> Amen to that. When I was 17, I managed to launch my Dad's 2 barrel carburetor, 429 cu. in. gold Ford LTD at an intersection and bottom it out. Didn't quite plant the landing.  That car had a slight lag when you floored it, but man did it have some power!


when I was 16, we had a similar vintage LTD (pretty sure they bought it to have me learn to drive in a tank) and ended up running it off the pavement on a country road, into a ditch and subsequently into a concrete culvert when an oncoming Porsche was cutting the corner. got out of it without a scratch - so guess it did the trick  
haven't had any sort of wreck since.

ETA: you know what would have been good to have? ELDA


----------



## GDN

That was one popular car. Learned to drive in the pickup, well because we had to go feed the cows, at about age 13, but the Ford LTD was one of the first cars. We all shared it as kids.


----------



## MelindaV

i hated that car :tearsofjoy:


----------



## garsh

MelindaV said:


> when I was 16, we had a similar vintage LTD


My family had the (pretend-upscale) Mercury Grand Marquis version of that car.
Wire Wheel (hubcaps), baby!


----------



## MelindaV

garsh said:


> My family had the (pretend-upscale) Mercury Grand Marquis version of that car.
> Wire Wheel (hubcaps), baby!


and whitewalls at that!


----------



## GDN

None of that fancy stuff for us, I'm quite certain our version came with some rust.


----------



## Dr. J

Lovesword said:


> So, to be more accurate, I do not use the UMC... when I do, my above scenario is the case. Otherwise, I'm using the CMC on the 14-50.


----------



## Love

Dr. J said:


> View attachment 26985


I don't mind a good Dos Equis... but wait, are you trying to say I'm an interesting person? Good interesting or bad interesting? lol

We're SO getting banished to the OT thread. Ready for the ride? 
Do your worst, mods!!!!!!


----------



## garsh

Lovesword said:


> We're SO getting banished to the OT thread. Ready for the ride?
> Do your worst, mods!!!!!!


Thanks for reminding me!


----------



## Dr. J

Lovesword said:


> I don't mind a good Dos Equis... but wait, are you trying to say I'm an interesting person? Good interesting or bad interesting? lol
> 
> We're SO getting banished to the OT thread. Ready for the ride?
> Do your worst, mods!!!!!!


Yup, already there!

I guess I'm saying, you're the most interesting person in the world...? Eh, close enough!


----------



## Love

Dr. J said:


> Yup, already there!
> 
> I guess I'm saying, you're the most interesting person in the world...? Eh, close enough!


Close enough is my middle name!!! Some of my best work ends up here in this thread, well, at least according to the democratically elected majority part of my brain that thinks I'm funny...

I like the off topic thread. Off topic is my middle name.


----------



## Dr. J

Lovesword said:


> Close enough is my middle name!!! Some of my best work ends up here in this thread, well, at least according to the democratically elected majority my brain that thinks I'm funny...
> 
> I like the off topic thread. Off topic is my middle name.


Loves Close Enough Off Topic Word, or Love Close Enough Off Topic Sword? I think the latter.


----------



## FRC

Dr. J said:


> Loves Close Enough Off Topic Word, or Love Close Enough Off Topic Sword? I think the latter.


I, also, have always thought the latter. I just don't see the man as a wordsmith. He's much too young!


----------



## Love

FRC said:


> I, also, have always thought the latter. I just don't see the man as a wordsmith. He's much too young!


...and handsome. Don't forget handsome.

I think if I repeat it enough, it's true.

Handsome. Handsome.


----------



## Dr. J

Lovesword said:


> ...and handsome. Don't forget handsome.
> 
> I think if I repeat it enough, it's true.
> 
> Handsome. Handsome.


As far as we know, it is.


----------



## FRC

Dr. J said:


> As far as we know, it is.


I have witnessed the wonder of @Lovesword with mine own eyes. However, much like the castlekeeper on The Wizard of Oz, I say this to you all...PAY NO ATTENTION TO THE MAN BEHIND THE CURTAIN!!


----------



## Love

FRC said:


> I have witnessed the wonder of @Lovesword with mine own eyes. However, much like the castlekeeper on The Wizard of Oz, I say this to you all...PAY NO ATTENTION TO THE MAN BEHIND THE CURTAIN!!


I always _did _feel like I was being controlled by an exterior force!!!!

Someone, fabricate me an tin foil hat, POST HASTE!!!

Cutscene to evil character in a dimly lit room at a desk in front of a large screen that appears to be logistics: "Goood... gooood... my plan to take the off topic thread off topic is coming to fruition!!!! BWA HWA HA AHAHAHAHAAA!!!" (/stroke white cat)"


----------



## Kimmo57

Lovesword said:


> I always _did _feel like I was being controlled by an exterior force!!!!
> 
> Someone, fabricate me an tin foil hat, POST HASTE!!!
> 
> Cutscene to evil character in a dimly lit room at a desk in front of a large screen that appears to be logistics: "Goood... gooood... my plan to take the off topic thread off topic is coming to fruition!!!! BWA HWA HA AHAHAHAHAAA!!!" (/stroke white cat)"


Actually...
https://www.howtogeek.com/114037/re...hats-boost-receptivity-to-government-signals/


----------



## lance.bailey

*"If the women don't find you handsome, they should at least find you handy."*

― Red Green​


----------



## MelindaV

wait, are you saying @Lovesword may not be handsome? it can't be...


----------



## Love

Kimmo57 said:


> Actually...
> https://www.howtogeek.com/114037/re...hats-boost-receptivity-to-government-signals/














lance.bailey said:


> *"If the women don't find you handsome, they should at least find you handy."*
> 
> ― Red Green​


Clearly there's never been a more good looking man than I. I'm not even bragging here... I'm saying _THAT's _how handy I am.



MelindaV said:


> wait, are you saying @Lovesword may not be handsome? it can't be...


... so I _am_ handy??? Now I'm just confused!


----------



## garsh

ETA?


----------



## MelindaV

Mr internet acronym, it is Edit To Add


----------



## garsh

MelindaV said:


> Mr internet acronym, it is Edit To Add


Guilty. 

I hadn't heard of that one - was always Estimated Time of Arrival to me.


----------



## bwilson4web

Thank you for another opportunity for a public service announcement.


> you should . . .


. . . take the sleep disorder screening quiz. Here is another paper with more details about sleep disorder screening.

I take a screening test as part of my annual exam:
​_Robert,_​_A summary of your recent visit . . . at Saint Thomas Sleep Specialists_Midtown is now available. . . . _​
I'll follow my sleep physician's advice. In your case, this would be a better screening.

_1) Grading of 3, 4 or 5 on any question, the patient likely suffers from insomnia. If they answer 3, 4 or 5 for two or more items and have significant daytime impairment the insomnia requires further evaluation and management._​
_*2) Grading 4 or 5 on questions 6-9 require further screening for psychiatric disorders. Question 8 refers to somatization and may reflect an underlying somatoform disorder which requires specific treatment.*_​
_3) Grading 4 or 5 on question 10 may be a circadian rhythm disorder. Further questioning about shift work or a preference for a delayed sleep phase should be done._​
_4) Grading 4 or 5 on question 11 or 12 is significant and likely contributing to the patient's symptoms of insomnia or non-restorative sleep. Question 11 refers to restless legs syndrome and question 12 refers to periodic limb movement disorder._​
_5) Grading 2-5 on question 14 should raise concern especially if the event or movement is violent or potentially injurious to the patient or bed partner._​​_6) Grading 4 or 5 on question 14 or 15 alone require further clinical evaluation for sleep apnea. Grading above 3 on questions 14 and 15 or 14 and 16 is also suspicious for sleep apnea and further evaluation should be done._​
Bob Wilson


----------



## MJJ

I do agree with the spirit of your post and am indeed grateful for the fun ride (literal and metaphorical), but many of us did pay for upgrades and features in advance, many of which have not yet materialized. Additionally, we are unpaid beta testers, performing what can only be described as high risk testing, and Tesla wouldn’t have the huge database and crowd sourced knowledge base it does, without us.

But yeah, good on ya Tesla & Elon. It’s been fun, and I don’t mind waiting to see what you come up with next.


----------



## Dr. J




----------



## MelindaV

Dr. J said:


> View attachment 27181


you went to the same medical school my dad must have. I assume you also start out asking "is it bleeding?"


----------



## Dr. J

MelindaV said:


> you went to the same medical school my dad must have. I assume you also start out asking "is it bleeding?"


No, I'm not that kind of doctor.

_"After I got my Ph.D., my mother took great relish in introducing me as, 'This is my son, he's a doctor but not the kind that helps people.'"_
- *Randy Pausch*, _The Last Lecture_


----------



## MelindaV

Dr. J said:


> No, I'm not that kind of doctor.
> 
> _"After I got my Ph.D., my mother took great relish in introducing me as, 'This is my son, he's a doctor but not the kind that helps people.'"_
> - *Randy Pausch*, _The Last Lecture_


oh, my dad isn't anything close to a dr either.


----------



## codeoverride

This is all so not helpful


----------



## Dr. J

codeoverride said:


> This is all so not helpful


Sorry for the hijack! I recommend finding another Model 3 owner so you can compare to find out if those sounds are normal. I would never think of doing this to my car, but it's probably because I lack imagination.


----------



## Dr. J

Well deserved banishment to my favorite thread, mods!  This just encourages smart-a**es, you know that right?


----------



## garsh

Dr. J said:


> This just encourages smart-a**es, you know that right?


----------



## FRC

GDN said:


> Not sure it was mentioned specifically in this thread, but it was noted in the .1 release just before this. Not everyone gets every release, so worth nothing here. Previous Release.


I don't normally point out typos, but in this case @GDN, I assume that the word nothing should be noting. Big difference!


----------



## GDN

FRC said:


> I don't normally point out typos, but in this case @GDN, I assume that the word nothing should be noting. Big difference!


Thanks for the call out, it is corrected. You are welcome to point out my typos, but beware it could turn in to a full time job. I edit about half of my posts after I reread them. I likely should start using the preview button. The fingers either just don't type what I'm thinking or spell check helps me out in a bad way that I don't recognize until later.


----------



## garsh

MelindaV said:


> (and @GDN - @garsh has a knack for finding every one of my typos. It really is pretty amazing  )


Thanks to your typos, I've now learned that there is such a thing as a water deer.
And it's much more magnificent than I could ever have imagined.










...and I guess these posts should be moved to off-topic. I'll do that right after posting this.


----------



## Mr. Spacely

Why do you need to turn the wheel while the car is parked? Patient: "It hurts when I do this." Doctor: "Then don't do that."


----------



## garsh

Mr. Spacely said:


> Why do you need to turn the wheel while the car is parked?


Beach Buggy Racing 2, duh.


----------



## Dr. J

Mr. Spacely said:


> Why do you need to turn the wheel while the car is parked? Patient: "It hurts when I do this." Doctor: "Then don't do that."


Careful, I already got banished to Relocated Off-Topic Conversations for suggesting the same.


----------



## garsh

Dr. J said:


> Careful, I already got banished to Relocated Off-Topic Conversations for suggesting the same.


Oh yeah, thanks for the reminder!
Gotta keep this thread fresh!


----------



## Dr. J

garsh said:


> Oh yeah, thanks for the reminder!
> Gotta keep this thread fresh!


----------



## mswlogo

VanIsleGuy said:


> Ok, a few updates.
> Used my multimeter to check plug voltages. Outside two wires are thick red and black wires, middle is yellow wire.
> Before I woke car up voltage between black and red was 0 (floating), and between black and yellow was 11.9V
> Once I woke car up, voltage between black and red was 13V, and between black and yellow remained the same at 11.9V.
> I put my hazard lights on, and nothing seemed to change (too bad).
> If it is for trailer wiring, it doesn't seem like good ol' school wire directly to lights. I'm wondering if it is some sort of canbus signal. Perhaps I will try to hook the oscilloscope up to it at work if I get a chance this week.
> 
> Here are some closeups of the connector (this is the removable cap):
> View attachment 27310
> View attachment 27311
> View attachment 27312
> 
> This is the female end wired to the car (where I took my measurements):
> View attachment 27313
> 
> 
> I also took a picture of the decal on my door sill. Does this mean March 2019 or third day of 2019?
> View attachment 27314
> 
> 
> If there is anything else besides hooking this up to an oscilloscope that people want me to try let me know. I've routed the connector down to the hole I cut in the cover under the car where the hitch comes through so it is relatively easy to access.


Thanks for pic

Sorry to side track your nice thread but did Tesla go back to 45 psi on Aero's? Mine said 42 psi (AWD USA Build Sept 2018 with Aero's). Is this a European thing? I thought they moved to 42 psi. I know 19" & 20" are 42 psi.


----------



## Major Victory

mswlogo said:


> Thanks for pic
> 
> Sorry to side track your nice thread but did Tesla go back to 45 psi on Aero's? Mine said 42 psi (AWD USA Build Sept 2018 with Aero's). Is this a European thing? I thought they moved to 42 psi. I know 19" & 20" are 42 psi.


Mine say 45, Oct 2018 build AWD 18" Aero...


----------



## IPv6Freely

iChris93 said:


> Why that date and replaced with what?


Red CA HOV stickers expire Jan 1, 2022. Probably replaced with a Model 3


----------



## iChris93

IPv6Freely said:


> Red CA HOV stickers expire Jan 1, 2022. Probably replaced with a Model 3


I don't know how the sticker system works. Wouldn't a new sticker be less expensive than a new car?


----------



## IPv6Freely

iChris93 said:


> I don't know how the sticker system works. Wouldn't a new sticker be less expensive than a new car?


Can't get new stickers. Once it expires, the car is no longer eligible for stickers. I can get a transponder to still be able to use the HOV lanes but that runs about $250/mo to go to work both ways every day. I know, because that's what I was doing prior to getting an EV.


----------



## iChris93

IPv6Freely said:


> Can't get new stickers. Once it expires, the car is no longer eligible for stickers. I can get a transponder to still be able to use the HOV lanes but that runs about $250/mo to go to work both ways every day. I know, because that's what I was doing prior to getting an EV.


Oh I see. It is just an incentive for buying a new EV and then you cannot renew it. I did not know that. Thanks for explaining.

Think they may change the rules by 2022?


----------



## IPv6Freely

iChris93 said:


> Oh I see. It is just an incentive for buying a new EV and then you cannot renew it. I did not know that. Thanks for explaining.
> 
> Think they may change the rules by 2022?


Yeah, its pretty stupid. They should be incentivizing people to get EVs AND KEEP THEM but I guess not. The car is no less electric on Jan 1 2022 than it was on Dec 31 2021...

And unlikely. They're already on to the next color (Purple) and already have dates set for whatever colors they pick after that. https://ww2.arb.ca.gov/resources/fact-sheets/current-clean-air-vehicle-decal

It's very silly. At least Tesla now has leasing programs that I'll be making full use of next time. I prefer to lease anyway but that wasn't an option when I got mine. If I lease, I won't have to worry about not being able to get stickers updated.


----------



## Gordon87

IPv6Freely said:


> Yeah, its pretty stupid. They should be incentivizing people to get EVs AND KEEP THEM but I guess not. The car is no less electric on Jan 1 2022 than it was on Dec 31 2021...
> 
> And unlikely. They're already on to the next color (Purple) and already have dates set for whatever colors they pick after that. https://ww2.arb.ca.gov/resources/fact-sheets/current-clean-air-vehicle-decal
> 
> It's very silly. At least Tesla now has leasing programs that I'll be making full use of next time. I prefer to lease anyway but that wasn't an option when I got mine. If I lease, I won't have to worry about not being able to get stickers updated.


May not be so silly. If you trade in the car for a new EV in 2012 and someone buys your old EV, there are now 2 EVs on the roads, rather than one. It just subsidizes people by creating a pool of relatively new used EVs. The HOV rules just encourage you to participate in this subsidy approach.


----------



## Frully

Gordon87 said:


> May not be so silly. If you trade in the car for a new EV in 2012 and someone buys your old EV, there are now 2 EVs on the roads, rather than one. It just subsidizes people by creating a pool of relatively new used EVs. The HOV rules just encourage you to participate in this subsidy approach.


I like that take on it - It's not a permanent benefit, just a nice incentive. If you find you need the HOV lane, you can buy it after. The HOV lane has a fixed capacity so they can't keep stacking up 'free' users endlessly or the lane becomes pointless - as well, it's designed to take cars off the road by increasing occupancy. Depends if the goal of HOV is to reduce cars or reduce emissions. Zero emission vehicles help with the one goal but don't help if they still snarl up traffic with single occupant cars.


----------



## shareef777

Gordon87 said:


> May not be so silly. If you trade in the car for a new EV in 2012 and someone buys your old EV, there are now 2 EVs on the roads, rather than one. It just subsidizes people by creating a pool of relatively new used EVs. The HOV rules just encourage you to participate in this subsidy approach.


Would the buyer of the used EV qualify for the HOV sticker? In all fairness, I always thought HOVs intent was to get more vehicles off the road (by having people carpool), to limit traffic not necessarily to limit emissions.


----------



## Frully

shareef777 said:


> Would the buyer of the used EV qualify for the HOV sticker?


The california gov site says that older cars qualify only if it's their first sticker.


----------



## Rick Steinwand

garsh said:


> In each of these software version threads, there is a poll at the top in which you can choose whether you've installed it or not. You can change your vote at any time too.
> 
> We are deleting posts that say "got it" to help keep these threads from getting too cluttered. Please take part in the polls instead.
> 
> Thanks!


You delete a LOT more than just "got it" posts.


----------



## garsh

Rick Steinwand said:


> You delete a LOT more than just "got it" posts.


Was there a post in particular that was mistakenly deleted?
We definitely aren't infallible.


----------



## Frully

What about posts that are natively made in the relocated thread? Do they get relocated to on-topic conversations?!


----------



## MelindaV

garsh said:


> Was there a post in particular that was mistakenly deleted?
> We definitely aren't infallible.


We also remove the "why haven't I gotten it yet" and "no changes" and "looks like it is only for (x)".
The intent of the fw threads is to provide others useful info on each release on its features and bugs. If you want to see why, go back to one of the early fw threads and sort thru pages of "installing now in (location)" and similar Followed by a handful of posts with actual information about the new install.


----------



## lawnmore

mswlogo said:


> Your telling folks to not trust my opinion is not an opinion on the topic. I think it's hard to trust people that can't come up with a technical counter argument and instead they go after their character.


Opinions are like the saying goes, everyone has one. I would give your " opinion" much more consideration if you could provide some solid facts and not " to the best of my memory" I would like to believe you but without supporting data your "opinion" is just that.


----------



## JasonF

jsanford said:


> Beg to differ-most fuel-injection motorcycles do, with varying degrees of accuracy-my BMW was accurate give or take 40 miles, but when my Ducati says I have 20 miles until empty, I don't have 20.1 miles (guess how I know?).


What you get from me is what you quoted in the post above. I'm not willing to do hours of research into every single gasoline vehicle ever produced and make detailed charts of how each and every one displays remaining fuel or miles to make absolutely certain that someone won't be able to come along and claim everything I've said in the entire thread is invalid because of some obscure exception.

If and when it becomes a requirement that each one of my posts has to be fully and completely researched and include detailed charts and data, I would simply stop posting. I don't really have time to do that.


----------



## Jack Rickard

I had a post deleted by a purported moderator - one GDN and they actually edited another posters' text apparently. I'm sorry but as a matter of policy dating back to the late 1980's I simply do not participate in online forums that do this.
I will not be able to participate in this thread, forum, or online service in the future. I cannot rely on any of it to be real as it is edited after the fact by a third party.

So long and thanks for all the fish...

Jack Rickard


----------



## garsh

I'm sorry to see you go, but I understand your reasons.

Unfortunately, the first posts that were deleted were off-topic, and not particularly civil. Posts replying to the uncivil posts were deleted as well, and that's why your reply was removed. We won't permit threads on this forum to devolve into that sort of argument. Those types of discussions can be had elsewhere.



Jack Rickard said:


> I had a post deleted by a purported moderator - one GDN and they actually edited another posters' text apparently. I'm sorry but as a matter of policy dating back to the late 1980's I simply do not participate in online forums that do this.
> I will not be able to participate in this thread, forum, or online service in the future. I cannot rely on any of it to be real as it is edited after the fact by a third party.
> 
> So long and thanks for all the fish...
> 
> Jack Rickard


----------



## GDN

Lovesword said:


>


@Lovesword I was really looking forward to your take on it, but this post comes up empty !


----------



## MelindaV

GDN said:


> @Lovesword I was really looking forward to your take on it, but this post comes up empty !


does your ad-blocker prevent gif files?


----------



## GDN

MelindaV said:


> does your ad-blocker prevent gif files?


It never has before, but it must be now !! Let me check from mobile. OK - wow. Maybe I wish I had not checked !!!!! LOL.


----------



## MelindaV

GDN said:


> OK - wow. Maybe I wish I had not checked !!!!! LOL.


that is always the risk with @Lovesword


----------



## GDN

Just discovered the reason I could not see it earlier. It was blocked by a firewall. VPN helped.


----------



## Love

GDN said:


> Just discovered the reason I could not see it earlier. It was blocked by a firewall. VPN helped.


Admit it, you saw the GIF right away... but based on past experiences, you're just accustomed to bigger and better things from the likes of me... giving you that feeling that my post left you empty inside.

I'll step my game up!!! (Note to self...Monty Python's time in the sun was 30 years ago. Let it go, man. Let it go.)


----------



## Bokonon

Lovesword said:


> (Note to self...Monty Python's time in the sun was 30 years ago. Let it go, man. Let it go.)


*disagree button*


----------



## Thomasmcd1

BenB said:


> It is thunderstorm season in the US/Midwest. I charge at home and was wondering if my Model 3 should be unplugged during a lightning storm or if there are built in protections in the car.


I'm a new member and can't figure out how to do a post


----------



## garsh

Thomasmcd1 said:


> I'm a new member and can't figure out how to do a post


It appears that you figured it out.


----------



## FRC

garsh said:


> It appears that you figured it out.


@garsh , I just blew Dr. Pepper out my nose. I'd give you a hi effing larious if I could!


----------



## StromTrooperM3

Will trade or sell mine after these recent price changes in a heartbeat. I will never buy a new tesla ever again. Gonna head to CarMax later this week to see what they offer me LR DM White/White Aeros FSD 3k miles. Car is amazing, everyone always wants to check it out and drive it, but thats one heck of a hit to my wallet for other's enjoyment. Huge bloodbath in 7 months.


----------



## Mr. Spacely

@StromTrooperM3 First off shouldn't it be "Storm Trooper", not "Strom Trooper?" Second-- who cares what your car may or may not be worth this afternoon? Most likely a BMW or whatever alternative ICE car you might have purchased would have depreciated even more. Third-- you bought a tech product, not a car. It will get cheaper to make and better every year. Just enjoy the ride...


----------



## FRC

StromTrooperM3 said:


> Will trade or sell mine after these recent price changes in a heartbeat. I will never buy a new tesla ever again. Gonna head to CarMax later this week to see what they offer me LR DM White/White Aeros FSD 3k miles. Car is amazing, everyone always wants to check it out and drive it, but thats one heck of a hit to my wallet for other's enjoyment. Huge bloodbath in 7 months.


I have the same car as you except it's a P. So my hit is substantially greater than yours. But it's not a hit at all unless you sell.


----------



## JasonF

StromTrooperM3 said:


> Will trade or sell mine after these recent price changes in a heartbeat. I will never buy a new tesla ever again. Gonna head to CarMax later this week to see what they offer me LR DM White/White Aeros FSD 3k miles. Car is amazing, everyone always wants to check it out and drive it, but thats one heck of a hit to my wallet for other's enjoyment. Huge bloodbath in 7 months.


It's not a classic Ferrari, so like all (other) cars, you don't purchase one to _gain_ value. Cars are by nature a depreciating asset.

I'm happy the prices are decreasing. I'm also happy that the used Model 3's aren't losing that much value. As long as those two things continue on the same path for a few years, it will make trading up cheaper and easier.

Don't think about it as "this car is $5000 cheaper than when I bought it". Think of it as in 6 years, when its paid off, and if you're lucky with trade-in values (and you took good care of it), you might be able to trade up to a new model for less than $20,000. You're hopefully buying into a system that will save you money in the future.

Another reason I'm happy to see the prices decreasing is as someone who has to carefully budget to buy a Tesla, I'm glad to see the company moving away from being an exclusive luxury brand. I always have this fear that excessive popularity of Teslas will lead to more conventional corporate behavior of sharp price increases to cater to and attract fewer but more affluent buyers (like Disney keeps doing at its parks/hotels) and that when my Model 3 gets older, I might be priced out of being able to buy another one. So I'm glad to see them take advantage of efficiencies and technological improvements by reducing prices and increasing sales volume instead of increasing profit margin.


----------



## StromTrooperM3

JasonF said:


> Don't think about it as "this car is $5000 cheaper than when I bought it". Think of it as in 6 years, when its paid off


I buy my cars cash and change every 2 to 3 years max. I'm all well with taking the typical hit in those areas but this has turned into a whole different animal


----------



## StromTrooperM3

Mr. Spacely said:


> you bought a tech product, not a car


I own my own IT consulting company. I get it better than anyone



Mr. Spacely said:


> First off shouldn't it be "Storm Trooper", not "Strom Trooper?


Let me be the first to apologise for my dyslexia and oversight at the time I created my account. Sorry about my disability


----------



## StromTrooperM3

JasonF said:


> Cars are by nature a depreciating asset.


But... But.. But... But Elon said it should be appreciating!😂😁🙃 I certainly appreciate it the couple times a week I drive it. After 6 months I have 3k miles. I'm sure it will be the one of the best kept ones at time of trade up as you stated


----------



## JasonF

StromTrooperM3 said:


> But... But.. But... But Elon said it should be appreciating!😂😁🙃 I certainly appreciate it the couple times a week I drive it. After 6 months I have 3k miles. I'm sure it will be the one of the best kept ones at time of trade up as you stated


Yeah...Elon Musk and Twitter...

Even if you paid cash for it, your trade-in value will go further than it would have if the prices stayed the same or increased.

But anyone who has a garage filled with cars as investments is probably going to be disappointed with the Model 3.


----------



## StromTrooperM3

JasonF said:


> But anyone who has a garage filled with cars as investments is probably going to be disappointed with the Model 3.


The classics are definitely investments. I buy them because I enjoy them all being different. As tech I expected it to depreciate, I didn't expect the MSRP to fall off a cliff as the tax credits expired as we were led to believe was the best time to buy. I was simply led on so I rushed purchase end of 2018. Now I see I should have just waited... But I know for the Y release to wait 2 years until I buy one


----------



## SalisburySam

@MelindaV, love your new avatar! For those of us closer to the Atlantic coast, could you identify the awesome bridge please?


----------



## MelindaV

SalisburySam said:


> @MelindaV, love your new avatar! For those of us closer to the Atlantic coast, could you identify the awesome bridge please?


will post it over in the OT thread


----------



## MelindaV

SalisburySam said:


> @MelindaV, love your new avatar! For those of us closer to the Atlantic coast, could you identify the awesome bridge please?


this is the St Johns Bridge in North Portland over the Willamette River (1928). 








it is pretty awesome, and what isnt shown in my avatar photo is the structure leading up to this part of the bridge. It sits over the top of the aptly named "Cathedral Park" where you can get these awesome views thru its structure 









and the couple other photos I took with the avatar one  first two are in the boat ramp lot, and if there wasn't so many trucks around, I would have pulled down closer to the water. (the right side in the googled pix above)


----------



## GDN

MelindaV said:


> this is the St Johns Bridge in North Portland over the Willamette River (1928).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> it is pretty awesome, and what isnt shown in my avatar photo is the structure leading up to this part of the bridge. It sits over the top of the aptly named "Cathedral Park" where you can get these awesome views thru its structure
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> and the couple other photos I took with the avatar one  first two are in the boat ramp lot, and if there wasn't so many trucks around, I would have pulled down closer to the water. (the right side in the googled pix above)
> View attachment 27749
> 
> View attachment 27750
> 
> View attachment 27751
> 
> View attachment 27752
> 
> View attachment 27753


Very nice photo eye.


----------



## Dr. J

StromTrooperM3 said:


> I certainly appreciate it the couple times a week I drive it. After 6 months I have 3k miles.


Well *there's* your problem!


----------



## Jack Rickard

garsh said:


> I'm sorry to see you go, but I understand your reasons.
> 
> Unfortunately, the first posts that were deleted were off-topic, and not particularly civil. Posts replying to the uncivil posts were deleted as well, and that's why your reply was removed. We won't permit threads on this forum to devolve into that sort of argument. Those types of discussions can be had elsewhere.


Actually, the first posts WERE on topic and very much a topic in this particular forum. And of course I replied and quite "civil" as I recall

It doesn't matter. If you DELETE posts and actually you never deleted the first post you apparently EDITED it, then we cannot rely on ANY post being the actual thing posted originally, and we cannot rely on anything not corrected as being correct because other contextual posts have been deleted as well.

BOttom line, your forum becomes a FABRICATION merely by your purported editorial control. It is a fiction. And not worth any time participating in it. Kind of an online masturbation if you will.


----------



## Dr. J

Jack Rickard said:


> Kind of an online masturbation if you will.





Dr. J said:


> Well *there's* your problem!


----------



## shareef777

fritter63 said:


> There were still definitely impressed, especially after demonstrating autopilot on back country wine roads (just one stripe in the middle).
> 
> Their daughter was most obviously impressed. Her parents are too, but they are hardcore "We'll never drive anything but a big truck or suv, because SAFETY" (they got in a rollover accident with their toddler son and walked away unscathed). Now they're convinced no other type of vehicle can do that.


Oh the irony. Did you explain they were more likely in the roll over because of the big truck/suv, and the Tesla up coming truck (and current X) are less likely to roll over because of the low center of gravity (due to the battery pack)?


----------



## fritter63

shareef777 said:


> Oh the irony. Did you explain they were more likely in the roll over because of the big truck/suv, and the Tesla up coming truck (and current X) are less likely to roll over because of the low center of gravity (due to the battery pack)?


You can't argue/reason with an anectodal personal religious testimony!


----------



## bwilson4web

JWardell said:


> Wow!
> I've never seen newscasters so calm!


Hey dude, it is California where pot is legal. Come to meth states to see 'excited:'









Bob Wilson


----------



## MelindaV

bwilson4web said:


> Hey dude, it is California where pot is legal. Come to meth states to see 'excited:'
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Bob Wilson


umm, you know Portland is not in California, right? it is in Oregon, where weed is also legal, but certainly not part of California


----------



## Frully

fritter63 said:


> You can't argue/reason with an anectodal personal religious testimony!


Off topic -- I have extended family members who swear by not wearing their belts because the son in the family "only survived his 2 rollovers by being ejected, the cabin collapse would have killed him". None of them wear belts much because 'belts kill'. This was all fine and good until his 3rd rollover ejection where the truck landed on him. RIP. They still believe the first anecdote thinking the death was just the unlucky outlier.


----------



## lance.bailey

sorry about the loss of the extended family member, but *three* rollovers?


----------



## Needsdecaf

Frully said:


> Off topic -- I have extended family members who swear by not wearing their belts because the son in the family "only survived his 2 rollovers by being ejected, the cabin collapse would have killed him". None of them wear belts much because 'belts kill'. This was all fine and good until his 3rd rollover ejection where the truck landed on him. RIP. They still believe the first anecdote thinking the death was just the unlucky outlier.


Okay, wait. First of all, sorry for the loss of your family member.

But, how can you be that ignorant?

Second of all, THREE ROLLOVERS? These people should have their licenses taken away!


----------



## shareef777

Frully said:


> Off topic -- I have extended family members who swear by not wearing their belts because the son in the family "only survived his 2 rollovers by being ejected, the cabin collapse would have killed him". None of them wear belts much because 'belts kill'. This was all fine and good until his 3rd rollover ejection where the truck landed on him. RIP. They still believe the first anecdote thinking the death was just the unlucky outlier.


Three rollovers!? I don't think the belt was the issue.


----------



## Frully

lance.bailey said:


> *three* rollovers?





Needsdecaf said:


> But, how can you be that ignorant?
> Second of all, THREE ROLLOVERS? These people should have their licenses taken away!





shareef777 said:


> Three rollovers!? I don't think the belt was the issue.


I can neither confirm nor deny alcohol being involved in any of the above....It's a damn shame. It just speaks back to the first statement:



fritter63 said:


> You can't argue/reason with an anectodal personal religious testimony!


You cannot throw facts at these people. Even now, with the ACTUAL PAST clearly evident, they think it's only 1/3 dangerous and 2/3 safe to be ejected...or to roll...or to use alcohol.


----------



## lance.bailey

really really sorry for that.


----------



## Needsdecaf

That sucks, sorry man. It's a bad affliction. People think it's a personal choice, but it's not. Once it gets you, it's just as deadly as anything else. Social use is so acceptable and addiction rates are low enough to where people don't make that big of a deal of it. But it can be bad. Clearly, if after having gone through three major accidents and losing your child you still make those choices.....that's not good. 

I hope they get help. 

Back to our regular programming....


----------



## Perscitus

Copterguy said:


> ...


Ah, yes. Nothing like some Blue Hawaiian Helicopter 'Visions of Hawaii' on Bluray or better yet - the real deal over Kaua'i... or craters & coffee! That M3P (P3D, etc) isn't half bad either.


----------



## Klaus-rf

TOFLYIN said:


> All cars must make the same db level or higher than a 1972 Yugo ( in 1972 we had the Ford Pinto.).


 There is no such thing as a 1972 Yugo. First prototype was made in 1977, first USA import was in late 1984 and ended in 1992. Imported by Malcolm Bricklin. The 3-cylinder engines did have a unique sound though,


----------



## bwilson4web

BluestarE3 said:


> What were you humming?


In the movie _The Imitation Game_ about breaking the German enigma code, one of the analysts, Hugh, is telling a risqué story about an act with a naive female partner, "She asked me what to do next?"

"You know, like the French do. And then she started humming _La Marseillaise._" Hugh.

Bob Wilson


----------



## WhiteFalcon

garsh said:


> But for flights of less than 2 hours of duration


I take 2 hour flights monthly for work going on 3 years now. The first year I had the same mindset as you I'd rather drive the 8 hours because I love driving.

It eventually gets old and I fly. One hour pre arrival to airport, 5 minute TSA pre check. Can part the car and be to the gate in under 15 minutes. I absolutely was in the same camp as you until it becomes regular. Once or twice a year I'd still prefer to drive


----------



## garsh

WhiteFalcon said:


> I take 2 hour flights monthly for work going on 3 years now. The first year I had the same mindset as you I'd rather drive the 8 hours because I love driving.
> 
> It eventually gets old and I fly. One hour pre arrival to airport, 5 minute TSA pre check. Can part the car and be to the gate in under 15 minutes. I absolutely was in the same camp as you until it becomes regular. Once or twice a year I'd still prefer to drive


Understandable. But the original topic was not about driving yourself for those 8 hours, but having the car drive for you once FSD is ready. I agree that driving myself for 8 hours would get old. But I think I'd much prefer having my car drive me than go through the whole process of flying on a plane. I can sleep, or get some work done, or watch a movie from the comfort of my car seat rather than be stuck in an airline economy seat.


----------



## WhiteFalcon

garsh said:


> rather than be stuck in an airline economy seat.


When you fly as much as I do, you don't sit economy


----------



## MelindaV

you should jut get your own plane - you could save that 15 minutes going thru security

/s


----------



## victor

MelindaV said:


> you should jut get your own plane - you could save that 15 minutes going thru security
> 
> /s


Yeah, be like Elon!


----------



## webdriverguy

FRC said:


> After a recent road trip that included about 60 miles on dirt roads, I had mobile change my cabin air filters while he was here. $140. I've got 34,000 miles(and 10 months) on mine and I didn't think the filters looked very bad. I'll likely wait until 100k to change again.
> As for tires, all 34k are on original 18's(no winter tires here!). I did the first rotation, free by mobile at 7,500 miles. Since then, I've routinely monitored tread wear(with a gauge), but no rotations. remarkably even wear on the P3D. Probably not so even on the RWD. I think new tires at 36K. Is your windshield glass in good shape overall? Like you, I got a few early small chips. But I've got significant pitting/abrasion to the point that I'm gonna have to replace the windshield very soon. I've never had this issue at any mileage on any other car(45 years of driving). I'm convinced that my glass is substandard, and plan to discuss it with the SC if I ever get back there.
> I'm running 252 wh/m so far in my P. I've found that 240 is not the required rate to achieve full range on the P, more like 225 on 18's(no aeros). Do you find that 221wh/m puts you significantly beyond rated range? Sounds like a poll might be in order?
> My degradation seems to be greater than yours, but not alarming. I'm at 297/310. So down 4% at 34,000 miles. I routinely charge to 85% at home, stay plugged in, and about 40% of my miles are from supercharging on road trips(free, other than a single idle fee of $6.50, when I got carried away talking Tesla at a 4 stall charger).


Why would would spend money on maintenance that you can do yourself?


----------



## WhiteFalcon

MelindaV said:


> you should jut get your own plane - you could save that 15 minutes going thru security
> 
> /s


Clear + pre check = 0 time at security


----------



## WhiteFalcon

victor said:


> Yeah, be like Elon!


Absolutely! Mission for no c02, flys private. I'd love to be like him.

Perfect example to garsh... Time is money. Even when you own a self driving tech company. That's why we fly when the car is still 5+ years out from getting you door to door


----------



## Madmolecule

http://www.zenith-motors.com/

Passed this on the highway coming into Atlanta today. I was not aware of them.


----------



## FRC

webdriverguy said:


> Why would would spend money on maintenance that you can do yourself?


I can paint my house, but I'm not gonna!!


----------



## webdriverguy

FRC said:


> I can paint my house, but I'm not gonna!!


Wrong comparison .... ROFL


----------



## FRC

To spell out my point... There are limits for the self-maintenance I'm willing to do. Those limits are generally defined along a cost/time/enjoyment spectrum. What is worthwhile for you may not be for me. I don't know if your "why would anybody" comment was serious or not, but now you know that for some the money saved doesn't outweigh the time used.


----------



## webdriverguy

FRC said:


> To spell out my point... There are limits for the self-maintenance I'm willing to do. Those limits are generally defined along a cost/time/enjoyment spectrum. What is worthwhile for you may not be for me. I don't know if your "why would anybody" comment was serious or not, but now you know that for some the money saved doesn't outweigh the time used.


It was serious and for me sure it does outweigh the time used. Tesla for a reason charges that high for a simple maintenance. If tesla says a year from now they want 240 to change the filters then what?
My Honda dealer once was charging me 80 bucks to swap a cabin filter that takes 1 min to swap out. I quietly walked away. I don't like money grabs.


----------



## FRC

webdriverguy said:


> It was serious and for me sure it does outweigh the time used. Tesla for a reason charges that high for a simple maintenance. If tesla says a year from now they want 240 to change the filters then what?
> My Honda dealer once was charging me 80 bucks to swap a cabin filter that takes 1 min to swap out. I quietly walked away. I don't like money grabs.


Great for you, not for me.


----------



## Feathermerchant

I enjoy saving time by doing it myself. I can generally accomplish the task in less time than it takes to travel to the service, drop off the car, wait on it or get a loaner then have to go get the car when its ready.
I enjoy having the time with my family.


----------



## FRC

Mobile did it in the driveway. I was inside with the family.


----------



## Feathermerchant

+1 for Mobile.


----------



## webdriverguy

FRC said:


> Great for you, not for me.


same


----------



## mzichao

FRC said:


> Great for you, not for me


I think this is all about striving for the balance among various obligations and responsibilities and how much you value your time. Some quiet time for yourself doing stuff you love or spending the time with people you love (that's me). No wrong answer either way.


----------



## webdriverguy

mzichao said:


> I think this is all about striving for the balance among various obligations and responsibilities and how much you value your time. Some quiet time for yourself doing stuff you love or spending the time with people you love (that's me). No wrong answer either way.


+1 for family. But I would rather give an independent mechanic that much money so that they could grow their business rather than paying tesla that money. As I said this is a pretty straight forward swap.


----------



## Needsdecaf

For some people maintenance is a chore.

For some people it is therapy and an escape.

I'm sure my wife would rather me tinker with the car in the driveway than run off with the boys to a strip club (extreme example, you get my point). Also, my daughter loves to help daddy out and always wants to crawl under the car to help. This was especially useful when I was removing the underbody shield when it broke off in heavy rains a few months ago. Drove the car on ramps, had her help me hold it up while I drilled holes and zip-tied it back on. 

Bonding with kids, teaching them repair skills and independence while they aren't staring at a screen = priceless. 

Everyone's got their own take. There is no right or wrong answer.


----------



## Ed Woodrick

So what!


----------



## SkipperOFMO

Ed Woodrick said:


> So what!


That was a worthwhile reply.


----------



## Madmolecule

For the small price of 10 Tesla roadsters you can soon get a cool electric car

lotus electric car


----------



## Klaus-rf

Madmolecule said:


> With whatever level of autonomy, driving a vehicle that can kill you and other people will be more expensive than one that keeps everyone alive. That will be the tipping point when not having this tech will literally kill your car's resale value


 So my brothers F-40 is gonna go down in value some day? It doesn't even have ABS.


----------



## FRC

[mod note: replying to this post]

That's awful! But why does it matter whether the guy is white, black, green, blue, or fuschia?


----------



## Alan K. Chan

FRC said:


> That's awful! But why does it matter whether the guy is white, black, green, blue, or fuschia?


It doesn't but by that same argument, does it even matter that it's a guy and not a girl? It's just descriptive or are we so triggered by race and not gender, at this point, that we want to wash it away? I don't care either way. I just find it funny what was picked out and what was left alone.


----------



## FRC

Less offensive to just call him what he is,,,an A**hole.


----------



## FRC

Nice job on that one Mod(s)!


----------



## bwilson4web

Lovesword said:


> How many clocks do you _really_ need?


​_Does Anybody Really Know What Time It Is?_​_Chicago_​
_As I was walking down the street one day_​_A man came up to me and asked me what the time was that was on my watch, yeah_​_And I said_​
_Does anybody really know what time it is (I don't)_​_Does anybody really care (care about time)_​_If so I can't imagine why (no, no)_​_We've all got time enough to cry_​_. . . _​


----------



## JWardell

Jack Rickard said:


> I had a post deleted by a purported moderator - one GDN and they actually edited another posters' text apparently. I'm sorry but as a matter of policy dating back to the late 1980's I simply do not participate in online forums that do this.
> I will not be able to participate in this thread, forum, or online service in the future. I cannot rely on any of it to be real as it is edited after the fact by a third party.
> 
> So long and thanks for all the fish...
> 
> Jack Rickard


Jack, I gave your post a heart to send you some love. And perhaps you won't be reading this. You know we are very sad to see you go, but I hope you will consider otherwise.
This forum is a bit different than the others, and it's that same reason why I participate here several orders of magnitude than the others. Unlike so many other online places that become more and more toxic, this tries to be a much more positive place. As many often devolve down that path, it does take quite a lot of work by the moderators to keep things on the up and up, effort that is not placed elsewhere. And that does mean things are cleaned up or removed when they get out of hand. As humans we do all naturally get a little too carried away with things, especially online, and only afterwards realize it's not constructive to be seen by everyone.
Separately, sometimes posts are moved just to keep a thread on-topic. It's a common problem other places that makes a thread 10x as long as it needs to be.
But this can only occur if the moderators clearly add to the post that it is not original and has been modified, and if it is more than something simple hopefully a private explanation is sent to the user as well. This is a bit more work than a delete key but I think mods here usually do so. If I find they don't I certainly will not keep my disagreement quiet, and hopefully they straighten things out.
There is no sense in duplicating other forums out there. Differentiation is better and this is intended to be the happier and more on-topic place.
Your policy was certainly a worth one in the 80s but back then everyone on any kind of forum (OK, BBS...) was all the same type of super geek and mostly came from the same perspective. It is much more difficult for any kind of social media to exist in modern times when everyone from all slices of society can and do participate.

I'm more sad that I only now just learned of this occurring and your departure, a 40 days afterwards. If anything that is an issue with the forum, and perhaps because I unsubscribed to the off topic thread as became more and more a recycle been of noise from other threads.

This is not only a call out to Jack to reconsider, but also a reminder to the mods that modifying or removing someone's content can be somewhat painful and insulting even if it is warranted, and I encourage a bit extra effort to explain to them, probably in a PM, why it is done so perhaps they are more understand and less upset. We never want to be losing good people.


----------



## FF35

Once I responded to a post with one of the emoji smiley faces on this site and the post was removed because it was rude or something to that effect.

If selecting an emoji that is provided on this website is deemed to harsh of a reply, some people are getting their feelings hurt way too easily.

I definitely understand why Jack took the action he did.


----------



## MelindaV

FF35 said:


> Once I responded to a post with one of the emoji smiley faces on this site and the post was removed because it was rude or something to that effect.
> 
> If selecting an emoji that is provided on this website is deemed to harsh of a reply, some people are getting their feelings hurt way too easily.
> 
> I definitely understand why Jack took the action he did.


Not knowing the actual post(s) you are thinking of, remember also the forum includes rules that posts should have actual content and useful to others.


TrevP said:


> _All posts must be civil, friendly & free from profanity or references to profanity_
> _Insulting or bullying other members will not be tolerated_
> _*All posts must have some point to them and add value to the community*_
> _*Topics without a point or community relevance will be deleted*_
> _This forum is not to be used as a soapbox_
> _This forum is family friendly. Any posts made should be considered appropriate for all to read_
> _Tesla stock "shorters" are not welcome here. We have a vested interest in the continuation of Tesla's mission and products. Shorters are the antithesis of that._
> _Repeat offenders will be banned and not permitted to re-register under a new account_
> _The Founder & Moderators have the final word in maintaining community order. This includes moving or deleting threads, posts or messages left on other member's profiles_


----------



## FF35

MelindaV said:


> Not knowing the actual post(s) you are thinking of, remember also the forum includes rules that posts should have actual content and useful to others.


Yup. The ones you highlighted in bold were not the reason for having the post deleted. The emoji wasn't civil or friendly.


----------



## MelindaV

FF35 said:


> Yup. The ones you highlighted in bold were not the reason for having the post deleted. The emoji wasn't civil or friendly.


Ok, then, the first billeted item would have then.


----------



## garsh

FF35 said:


> The emoji wasn't civil or friendly.


This one?


----------



## TrevP

JWardell said:


> Jack, I gave your post a heart to send you some love. And perhaps you won't be reading this. You know we are very sad to see you go, but I hope you will consider otherwise.
> This forum is a bit different than the others, and it's that same reason why I participate here several orders of magnitude than the others. Unlike so many other online places that become more and more toxic, this tries to be a much more positive place. As many often devolve down that path, it does take quite a lot of work by the moderators to keep things on the up and up, effort that is not placed elsewhere. And that does mean things are cleaned up or removed when they get out of hand. As humans we do all naturally get a little too carried away with things, especially online, and only afterwards realize it's not constructive to be seen by everyone.
> Separately, sometimes posts are moved just to keep a thread on-topic. It's a common problem other places that makes a thread 10x as long as it needs to be.
> But this can only occur if the moderators clearly add to the post that it is not original and has been modified, and if it is more than something simple hopefully a private explanation is sent to the user as well. This is a bit more work than a delete key but I think mods here usually do so. If I find they don't I certainly will not keep my disagreement quiet, and hopefully they straighten things out.
> There is no sense in duplicating other forums out there. Differentiation is better and this is intended to be the happier and more on-topic place.
> Your policy was certainly a worth one in the 80s but back then everyone on any kind of forum (OK, BBS...) was all the same type of super geek and mostly came from the same perspective. It is much more difficult for any kind of social media to exist in modern times when everyone from all slices of society can and do participate.
> 
> I'm more sad that I only now just learned of this occurring and your departure, a 40 days afterwards. If anything that is an issue with the forum, and perhaps because I unsubscribed to the off topic thread as became more and more a recycle been of noise from other threads.
> 
> This is not only a call out to Jack to reconsider, but also a reminder to the mods that modifying or removing someone's content can be somewhat painful and insulting even if it is warranted, and I encourage a bit extra effort to explain to them, probably in a PM, why it is done so perhaps they are more understand and less upset. We never want to be losing good people.


We've had discussions privately about this and we're making an effort to be more transparent about what is being edited and why. We're not in the habit of censoring anyone, we just want to maintain a civil place here and to keep things on topic and devoid of insults or things spiralling out of control.

We remind everyone to keep our expectations from the community in mind when participating, you can read them here:
https://teslaownersonline.com/threads/rules-policies-disclaimers-for-too-forums.2430/

The rules are there for everyone's benefit, let's keep this place the best place to talk Tesla!


----------



## pfg

billionaiire said:


> .


Well, as a billionaire, it this really important?


----------



## Love

Can I block a thread?


----------



## shareef777

Lovesword said:


> Can I block a thread?


Click "unwatch" at the top.


----------



## iChris93

Lovesword said:


> Can I block a thread?


There is an ignore button.


----------



## Mr. Spacely

[MOD NOTE - relocated from the 2019.32.1 thread]
Some of us don't like the aero hub caps and get a little bit offended each time we see them depicted on our car. I'd also love to see the aero removed look...


----------



## David Platt

Mr. Spacely said:


> Some of us don't like the aero hub caps and get a little bit offended each time we see them depicted on our car. I'd also love to see the aero removed look...


If you get offended by your car being depicted with aero wheel covers then you really need to examine why you are offended by that. Some people are never happy...


----------



## JWardell

Posted today on Reddit, another unfortunate interaction with Jack.

He sells an OBD kit which includes Model 3 cables, and he told me somewhat understandably he does not want to sell cables separately at a lower cost as he would spend a lot of time supporting users' highly technical issues and confusion with them.
We are still scrambling to find a source for these cables for our technical projects and products, and it certainly is not surprising he may get a request to sell them separately. What you will read is a perfectly reasonable request met with a very unreasonable response. It may help put in perspective his leaving the forum.


----------



## MelindaV

JWardell said:


> Posted today on Reddit, another unfortunate interaction with Jack.
> 
> He sells an OBD kit which includes Model 3 cables, and he told me somewhat understandably he does not want to sell cables separately at a lower cost as he would spend a lot of time supporting users' highly technical issues and confusion with them.
> We are still scrambling to find a source for these cables for our technical projects and products, and it certainly is not surprising he may get a request to sell them separately. What you will read is a perfectly reasonable request met with a very unreasonable response. It may help put in perspective his leaving the forum.


That email is essentially the exact same conversation he had with someone here asking the same.


----------



## FRC

He has clearly, and repeatedly, demonstrated that he is an unbalanced ass. Unworthy of any additional attention. Let's move on.


----------



## Jack Rickard

JWardell said:


> This is not only a call out to Jack to reconsider, but also a reminder to the mods that modifying or removing someone's content can be somewhat painful and insulting even if it is warranted, and I encourage a bit extra effort to explain to them, probably in a PM, why it is done so perhaps they are more understand and less upset. We never want to be losing good people.


I understand what you are trying to say. My point is I've been doing this for 30 years and it is NOT what you think. This forum cannot be relied on to be factual and BY that I mean that I can't even rely on the fact that this WAS YOUR post, that it was not modified, and that there were not replies that have simply been deleted. The ENTIRE FORUM and indeed Trevors online service then becomes FAKE NEWS on the face of it. It isn't real. You cannot rely that what you read was written by that person and in those words, and you can be ASSURED that some elements in the conversation was omitted. It is a waste of time because it is heavily moderated and FAKE. It is a fraud. It is NOT an online forum. It is an online PUBLICATION by Trevor. What he wants included is included and what he wants omitted is omitted. And so he has his own little God like existence but it is not REAL. And so I will not participate because it is a waste of time.

That it makes it PLEASANT for you to exist in this surreal environment explains why none of the anti Tesla factions appear here. They are excluded and we get one side of the story. It is as fraudulent as the paid for shorts pieces on Seeking Alpo and in the SAME way. You are living in a fantasy world and your knowledge is limited to what Trevor wants you to know and believe. And so YOUR views are no longer reliable as well. They have been malformed by an artificial environment.

All this goes back to a huge argument in 1985, which was on bulletin boards I suppose but mostly on a very small "Internet" about privacy and anonymity. I was vehemently opposed to ANY FORM of privacy or anonymity online. I lost the debate. And the result is the Internet you have. An almost violent space of lies, misinformation, slander, disinformation and manipulation. This is why online I go by the nom de plume JACK RICKARD. Curiously, that is my name in real life and the one my mother used. I notice you are JWARDELL which is a pretty close approximation. But most of the people here ON THIS FORUM go by truly stupid avatars they THINK are kind of cute. They aren't. They are cowardly and juvenile. And the purpose is to avoid any personal responsiblity for their words. And humans behave very poorly when they can shoot from a position of anonymity.

Try this. Soak up a LOT of online activity and the mean vicious world it represents. Then LEAVE your computer for two hours and go out into the real world and interact with people there. You'll be ASTONISHED at how nice and helpful, interested and interesting they really are. When they aren't on their phones or computers. And if you introduce yourself, they almost invariably reply with their actual NAME. I've encountered only a few who lie about this.


----------



## TrevP

Jack Rickard said:


> I understand what you are trying to say. My point is I've been doing this for 30 years and it is NOT what you think. This forum cannot be relied on to be factual and BY that I mean that I can't even rely on the fact that this WAS YOUR post, that it was not modified, and that there were not replies that have simply been deleted. The ENTIRE FORUM and indeed Trevors online service then becomes FAKE NEWS on the face of it. It isn't real. You cannot rely that what you read was written by that person and in those words, and you can be ASSURED that some elements in the conversation was omitted. It is a waste of time because it is heavily moderated and FAKE. It is a fraud. It is NOT an online forum. It is an online PUBLICATION by Trevor. What he wants included is included and what he wants omitted is omitted. And so he has his own little God like existence but it is not REAL. And so I will not participate because it is a waste of time.
> 
> That it makes it PLEASANT for you to exist in this surreal environment explains why none of the anti Tesla factions appear here. They are excluded and we get one side of the story. It is as fraudulent as the paid for shorts pieces on Seeking Alpo and in the SAME way. You are living in a fantasy world and your knowledge is limited to what Trevor wants you to know and believe. And so YOUR views are no longer reliable as well. They have been malformed by an artificial environment.
> 
> All this goes back to a huge argument in 1985, which was on bulletin boards I suppose but mostly on a very small "Internet" about privacy and anonymity. I was vehemently opposed to ANY FORM of privacy or anonymity online. I lost the debate. And the result is the Internet you have. An almost violent space of lies, misinformation, slander, disinformation and manipulation. This is why online I go by the nom de plume JACK RICKARD. Curiously, that is my name in real life and the one my mother used. I notice you are JWARDELL which is a pretty close approximation. But most of the people here ON THIS FORUM go by truly stupid avatars they THINK are kind of cute. They aren't. They are cowardly and juvenile. And the purpose is to avoid any personal responsiblity for their words. And humans behave very poorly when they can shoot from a position of anonymity.
> 
> Try this. Soak up a LOT of online activity and the mean vicious world it represents. Then LEAVE your computer for two hours and go out into the real world and interact with people there. You'll be ASTONISHED at how nice and helpful, interested and interesting they really are. When they aren't on their phones or computers. And if you introduce yourself, they almost invariably reply with their actual NAME. I've encountered only a few who lie about this.


Everyone is entitled to an opinion however we're here to help each other, not sling insults. There's enough of that on the internet already.

I like your blog post on Tesla and how everyone is out to get them, I even tweeted it but I don't appreciate the site being called fake news. I think everyone here would agree.


----------



## Jack Rickard

TrevP said:


> Everyone is entitled to an opinion however we're here to help each other, not sling insults. There's enough of that on the internet already.
> 
> I like your blog post on Tesla and how everyone is out to get them, I even tweeted it but I don't appreciate the site being called fake news. I think everyone here would agree.


It doesn't MATTER how many or if EVERYONE agrees. You have created a Trevor PUBLICATION and NOT a forum. It is simply FAKE news and by your hand. It is a DISTORTION of reality and you believe somehow that is a service. It's just a Tesla rah rah cult, managing the information to eliminate any dissent. Kind of like a "plug America" map of charging stations that don't exist, but that's ok because it makes it LOOK like EV's are successful. However well intended your motives, it is a reality distortion field and essentially worthless unless you want to call a lot of Tesla owners patting each on the back and agreeing that they are all just really smart and really green people some sort of worthwhile endeavor.

It is FAKE and having a lot of people support it makes it no less FAKE in ANY material way. ANd you should be ashamed of yourself.


----------



## TrevP

Well it *IS* a *Tesla OWNERS Forum*, says so right in the name and the domain. I'm not ashamed of myself and never will be because we provide a place where Tesla enthusiasts can talk and share information about the cars we love. Perhaps you should start your own forum for fake news adherents, it's a free country Jack.


----------



## Jack Rickard

TrevP said:


> We it *IS* a *Tesla OWNERS Forum*, says so right in the name and the domain. I'm not ashamed of myself and never will be because we provide a place where Tesla enthusiasts can talk and share information about the cars we love. Perhaps you should start your own forum for fake news adherents, it's a free country Jack.


It IS a free country. It is NOT a free forum for the expression of anything. It is Trevor's little world, managed by Trevor, for Trevor. And Trevor has NO CONCEPT of what I should start or not start. You do not provide a place where enthusiasts can talk and share information about the cars we love. I was a Tesla adherent BEFORE YOU EVER HEARD OF TESLA. It is a place where those who AGREE WITH TREVOR are allowed to say anything they want, as long as it pleaseth TREVOR.

We have no way to rely that ANY of these posts are real. Or that any response to them was actually published and not removed. It is a FRAUD. And your suggestion that I go start my OWN fraud is absurd. Anyone can post on my blog or on YouTube. I might tell them to go to NOWYOUKNOW with the other copper foil helmet crowd and theists. But I don't edit their messages. I don't need to live in an artificial world of my own creation. What you have here is online masturbation.


----------



## FRC

@TrevP , Please allow this to die right where it sits. Further response will get you nowhere and contributes absolutely NOTHING to the community.


----------



## Madmolecule

It was just getting good. The old curmudgeon doesn’t realize everything on the internet is filtered. Yea I remember 1985 it was wide open, but it still to an hour to download one song or picture. I think I remember Jack in the AOL lesbian chat room but that could just be fake news. Please keep Jack on here, I love listening to a guy that is not worried about air pollution because he smokes Marlboro’s. We need more of that logic to keep the debate lively. And my avatar might be a juvenile but it is not cowardly


----------



## ibgeek

[mod relocated from Rollout Process]

I give up, these forums are worthless. You try to help someone and you immediately get **** on by everyone. I mean, there's no way that I might know what the hell I'm talking about.

I know it's not everyone, but far too many to be worth my effort.

Peace out!


----------



## Birdman

Trevor, beautiful car - congratulations on the new acquisition and I enjoyed watching your video. It looked like you were actually getting a little emotional saying goodbye to White Knight! Well done. 

Question for you - I have a 3 LR AWD which I love, and which I daily drive in Toronto and have taken on many long trips - but deep down, I still lust for the X. Given that you just moved from the X to the 3, what are your thoughts on comparing the two from a daily driving perspective? I appreciate that in some respects they are Apples to Oranges, and 90% of the time I am in the car myself going up and down Avenue Road to work and back, but...

Any comments / thoughts / impressions on the X vs the 3 ? (Leaving aside of course, that the X carries more stuff.)

Thx in advance.


----------



## TrevP

Birdman said:


> Trevor, beautiful car - congratulations on the new acquisition and I enjoyed watching your video. It looked like you were actually getting a little emotional saying goodbye to White Knight! Well done.
> 
> Question for you - I have a 3 LR AWD which I love, and which I daily drive in Toronto and have taken on many long trips - but deep down, I still lust for the X. Given that you just moved from the X to the 3, what are your thoughts on comparing the two from a daily driving perspective? I appreciate that in some respects they are Apples to Oranges, and 90% of the time I am in the car myself going up and down Avenue Road to work and back, but...
> 
> Any comments / thoughts / impressions on the X vs the 3 ? (Leaving aside of course, that the X carries more stuff.)
> 
> Thx in advance.


Thanks for the kind words. 
I'll be doing a video on that subject soon so stay tuned!


----------



## Klaus-rf

John Rea said:


> ... in the glovebox (or is it "glove box" or "glove-box"?)


 In the proper Queens English, it's just "Glove".

"Glove box" is purely an American expression.


----------



## John Rea

Klaus-rf said:


> In the proper Queens English, it's just "Glove".
> 
> "Glove box" is purely an American expression.


Interesting. My wife is from Idaho and they say Jockeybox.


----------



## garsh

Klaus-rf said:


> In the proper Queens English, it's just "Glove".
> 
> "Glove box" is purely an American expression.


I don't see that definition.
https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/glove


----------



## Dr. J

John Rea said:


> Interesting. My wife is from Idaho and they say Jockeybox.


Careful! This is a family-friendly forum. That should be Blank-box.


----------



## JWardell

bwilson4web said:


> Thanks, that makes sense but being 'old school' I'm not a fan of hot keys.
> 
> Bob Wilson


Wait...doesn't "Old school" mean you only use key commands and not one of those newfangled mice?


----------



## Needsdecaf

JWardell said:


> Wait...doesn't "Old school" mean you only use key commands and not one of those newfangled mice?


I'm old enough to know what this is...and used it.


----------



## JWardell

Needsdecaf said:


> I'm old enough to know what this is...and used it.


I'm _still_ upset over the loss of WordPerfect!


----------



## Ed Woodrick

I think that you are asking for way too much precision and I have no idea why you would be trying to inch your charge rate up, 2% at a time. Unless you are at a Supercharger and trying to scam the idle fees by doing it. In that case, just move the car and let others charge. I don't care if you have to walk back out, just move the car.


----------



## VKG

All 3 occurrences, I was charging at home. No supercharging involved.

First time when this issue happened, I had to up the limit as i have a need to go on a trip and that is when I noticed the issue. Last occurrence & Today, I was just testing & trying to reproduce & to understand the issue.

Also, I tried to hook the charger around 8:30 PM today just to see and it is not charging, I received charing completed notification, now this atleast proves this is not overheating issue, Car is idle in my garage @ 93% SOC 288 Miles. I reported the issue to Tesla, appointment scheduled.

Just an FYI, I happen to & was able to charge my car to 100 %, 2 times since my ownership once on V 9 & once while on V10, in similar fashion, where I charged to 90 % first and then up the limit to 100 % based on my needs at that time. No issues, car charged fine.


----------



## John

[mod note: relocated from 2019.32.12.4 firmware thread]

To my thinking, this is the most functionally feature-rich release in a long time. And I'd include V10, since while Advanced Summon is a cool demo and $30M shot to TSLA margin, it's not really as functionally significant as one-pedal driving. And I know some people have been begging for end-of-charging timing, even if I don't worry that much about that sort of thing (because California, no weather).


----------



## John

Not to troll (too hard), but does it matter? If you have a plate law, put a plate on.
As an adult, do you really want to make some lame excuse to a highway patrolman, or skulk down to the local PD for a fixit sign-off?
Lookit, license plates on cars are ubiquitous and invisible. They fade into the background.
And it's hard to beat the one Tesla gives you for cost (free), fit, and stealth.
<-- Lookee


----------



## Kizzy

John said:


> To my thinking, this is the most functionally feature-rich release in a long time. And I'd include V10, since while Advanced Summon is a cool demo and $30M shot to TSLA margin, it's not really as functionally significant as one-pedal driving. And I know some people have been begging for end-of-charging timing, even if I don't worry that much about that sort of thing (because California, no weather).


Speak for yourself about no weather. I miss my morning regen in the winter in cooler parts of California.


----------



## ibgeek

Kizzy said:


> Speak for yourself about no weather. I miss my morning regen in the winter in cooler parts of California.


LOL It's always fun traveling to other states and saying your from California. People think we all live on beach front property. As to regen in cold weather, I believe if my information is correct that one-pedal driving will augment regen with actual breaking so will get the same driving experience in all weather or charge states.


----------



## francoisp

John said:


> (...) Advanced Summon is a cool demo and $30M shot to TSLA margin (...)


Can you explain this statement? Are you saying that it alone can be an incentive to buy the FSD option? Honestly I've tried it a few times and it hasn't worked well at all.


----------



## Jason F

FrancoisP said:


> Can you explain this statement? Are you saying that it alone can be an incentive to buy the FSD option? Honestly I've tried it a few times and it hasn't worked well at all.


They can't recognize the FSD revenue without delivering some features. I guess $30M was able to be recognized.


----------



## StromTrooperM3

GDN said:


> this was not listed in the release notes as being included.


I didn't see it included but I'm just curious why I keep reading articles that says software is released with new features when as an owner I'm not seeing them lol.

I'm assuming it will partially come from the new one pedal driving enhancement but I also think there is more to it as well


----------



## MelindaV

StromTrooperM3 said:


> I didn't see it included but I'm just curious why I keep reading articles that says software is released with new features when as an owner I'm not seeing them lol.
> 
> I'm assuming it will partially come from the new one pedal driving enhancement but I also think there is more to it as well


and that is why we ask people to only discuss the actual release features in these threads - to lessen the mis-information, at least in the release threads.


----------



## Feathermerchant

BlahBlah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah


----------



## iChris93

GDN said:


> This is not beta. Looks like my release notes match those posted in the tweet earlier. One Pedal, 5% power and scheduled departure.
> 
> View attachment 30288
> View attachment 30289


Does 6 AM actually reflect when peak rates start for you? It's 11 am here.


----------



## John Tomson

Anybody remember the "Tesla Coil" ?


----------



## John Tomson

There is a point when the line between reality and movies becomes blurred for you.


----------



## John

I'm gonna need pronouns.


----------



## garsh

John Tomson said:


> Anybody remember the "Tesla Coil" ?


Wait....
Was that from Command and Conquer?


----------



## Ed Woodrick

You do realize that the car is easily drivable with no regen.


----------



## FF35

Ed Woodrick said:


> You do realize that the car is easily drivable with no regen.


I have 40,000 miles but had no clue 🤷🏻‍♂️


----------



## Ze1000

Ken Voss said:


> Biggest issue for me so far is parking in my garage. I use a laser for precision parking guidance and getting the car to stop at precisely the exact laser point location is much more difficult in Hold mode.


Can you explain how you do the laser point? I had to glue a piece of wood to the floor, so I know when the tire hits it I do stop.


----------



## NR4P

Ze1000 said:


> Can you explain how you do the laser point? I had to glue a piece of wood to the floor, so I know when the tire hits it I do stop.


My non-tech method of knowing when to stop.
I hung a tennis ball on a string from the ceiling.

I pull in, tennis ball is right in front of me at eye level just above the steering wheel. When the windshield taps the ball, I stop.

String is held in place in the tennis ball with a small nail that pierces the tennis ball and string is tied to the nail. Ceiling part is a screw into a wall anchor so it doesn't fall out.

Been doing this for 30 years.


----------



## FRC

NR4P said:


> My non-tech method of knowing when to stop.
> I hung a tennis ball on a string from the ceiling.
> 
> I pull in, tennis ball is right in front of me at eye level just above the steering wheel. When the windshield taps the ball, I stop.
> 
> String is held in place in the tennis ball with a small nail that pierces the tennis ball and string is tied to the nail. Ceiling part is a screw into a wall anchor so it doesn't fall out.
> 
> Been doing this for 30 years.


Why only 30 years? Is that when tennis balls were invented?


----------



## John Di Cecco

I have an old freezer in the garage. I give it a little tap and then back up a couple inches. Now I'm worried the tap will be a crunch


----------



## garsh

NR4P said:


> My non-tech method of knowing when to stop.
> I hung a tennis ball on a string from the ceiling.
> 
> I pull in, tennis ball is right in front of me at eye level just above the steering wheel. When the windshield taps the ball, I stop.
> 
> String is held in place in the tennis ball with a small nail that pierces the tennis ball and string is tied to the nail. Ceiling part is a screw into a wall anchor so it doesn't fall out.
> 
> Been doing this for 30 years.


I did that for many years. 

Now I have a piece of blue painters tape on the floor. When that just goes off the bottom of the screen on the rear view camera, I stop.


----------



## Dr. J

My wife says her Dad was using the tennis ball on a string method at least 40 years ago, so tennis balls have been around at least that long.  My method is to let the car count down the distance to the obstacle (creep OFF, using momentum from when the car surmounted the bump up into the garage) until it beeps. That means I'm a few inches from the front obstacle and the rear of the car is about a foot inside the garage door. I must have awareness and take care, but gee, that should be the minimal requirements of driving.


----------



## Ken Voss

Explain? Sure…

Buy a laser parking sensor like this one


Ze1000 said:


> Can you explain how you do the laser point? I had to glue a piece of wood to the floor, so I know when the tire hits it I do stop.


Mount it to the ceiling of your garage above your front windshield

Park your car exactly where you want it and adjust the laser to mark a spot on your dash (I chose the silver strip as you can see on the picture below)
View attachment 30461


Now, every time you park stop when the red dot is on that silver strip and your car will be in exactly the same position (front to back) every time.


----------



## Ken Voss

Ze1000 said:


> Can you explain how you do the laser point? I had to glue a piece of wood to the floor, so I know when the tire hits it I do stop.


1- Buy a laser parking sensor like this one

2- Mount it to the ceiling of your garage above your front windshield
3- Park your car exactly where you want it and adjust the laser to mark a spot on your dash (I chose the silver strip as you can see on the picture below)

Now, every time you park stop when the red dot is on that silver strip and your car will be in exactly the same position (front to back) every time.


----------



## StromTrooperM3

Ken Voss said:


> Now, every time you park stop when the red dot is on that silver strip and your car will be in exactly the same position (front to back) every time.


The car literally tells you the parking distance in inches. Why is this necessary


----------



## tencate

android04 said:


> tencate, if you live where they salt the roads (I don't think they do that in NM do they?) you should have your brake hardware lubed.


Yes, I do live where the roads are sanded and salted. :-( (Most all of NM north of ABQ is above 5000 ft altitude.) I checked the brakes last year and didn't see a need for brake lube. And I asked the Ranger about it too and he looked at me like I was from Mars and said as long as the brakes get used, he saw no reason for fussing about it. I also have my Aero covers on in the winter. Keeps out snow and slush pretty effectively. But worth checking again, thanks for the tip.


----------



## skygraff

tencate said:


> I also have my Aero covers on in the winter. Keeps out snow and slush pretty effectively. But worth checking again, thanks for the tip.


I did that last winter and, when I took them off, found signs of corrosion on rotors, spikes, and inner rim; apparently due to salt and water not completely draining out overnight. I'm gonna try leaving them off this winter to see if it makes a difference.


----------



## tencate

skygraff said:


> I'm gonna try leaving them off this winter to see if it makes a difference.


We'll compare notes after this winter then. I've left mine on for the previous two winters. No corrosion. Maybe the sand/salt mix is more benign here?


----------



## skygraff

tencate said:


> We'll compare notes after this winter then. I've left mine on for the previous two winters. No corrosion. Maybe the sand/salt mix is more benign here?


I probably leave my car sitting more as well so that may be a factor. Drive a little bit for a couple of days then leave it in the garage for 3-5 days before driving again since I travel for work.


----------



## tencate

skygraff said:


> leave it in the garage for 3-5 days


ah, I don't have a garage, mine sits outside, with big ugly lumps of snow/ice/salt/sand stuck behind the tires for weeks sometimes and the buildup is pretty amazing (but the car has held up to that experience nicely). I grew up in Michigan, winters are way different here in the high desert southwest. More arid dry air, what little of it there is at 7000 ft


----------



## Zek

120V/20A Is 5% less efficient than 220V.
From model S forums: people that charged for 3-4 years from 120V only had 5-6miles range loss, that's around 2-3%. That's slightly better then people who supper charged and used 220V. 

1 - Slower charging is better (Slightly) 
2 - 40% to 60% depth of discharge is significantly better as the depth of discharge is shallow. 
3 - When it's colder outside depth of discharge can we wider with less damage to the battery. 

Just tested 120/20A at 24F over night. It charged my model 3 at 6mph for the whole night because I plugged in right after driving, so the battery was warm. 

I think there is going to be a 1% difference after 10 years. Not significant but not nothing.


----------



## garsh

Zak said:


> 120V/20A Is 5% less efficient than 220V.


The data I found showed closer to 13%. Can you share the source for the 5% difference?


> From model S forums: people that charged for 3-4 years from 120V only had 5-6miles range loss, that's around 2-3%. That's slightly better then people who supper charged and used 220V.


Throwing supercharging in with the 240v charging makes for an uneven comparison. You'd need to remove cars that supercharge from the comparison. But I'd like to see your source to get the details - can you share a link?


> 1 - Slower charging is better (Slightly)


Where slow means something less than 180 amps, yes. But when you're restricting the discussion to AC charging rates of under 50 amps, then _faster_ is better (slightly).


----------



## tencate

garsh said:


> can you share a link?


I'm with garsh on this, I'm an avid reader and researcher, please everyone share links for stuff that gets posted here to help support your thinking? Love to read and learn as much as possible and it doesn't help if we don't know what's _opinion_ or a _researched fact_


----------



## Zek

Real Data Point! " I've had no issues charging at 120V these past 2yrs+ . Zero range anxiety in day to day usage - I don't think the battery level ever gets much below 45-50% on a given day (unless on a road trip when of course there are Superchargers to use). No noticeable battery degradation - maybe slow charging and only to 65% is a factor in that, I don't know, but I'm happy about that. My incremental electricity cost since getting the car isn't big, so any small efficiency loss charging at the lower voltage isn't of concern to me. Yes charging at home with 240V would be great if possible, but an overnight charge at 120V is plenty for my usage and may be for yours"
https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/problems-with-120v-charging.108577/


----------



## Zek

Another data point: " I have a short commute and use 120v all the time, I'm told the slower the charge the better. I haven't lost any miles since I first got the car, I'm at 43k now"

__
https://www.reddit.com/r/teslamotors/comments/54nntn


----------



## tencate

Thanks. These are Model 3 guys right? That does match my experience the first year too. Charging at 120V/20A bumped my electricity bill up about $30 a month. I was hoping the 240V/30A circuit would be a bit cheaper. Hard to tell though without a real watt meter. There are people here who have done that however and, like the Aero wheel covers, I might be saving enough for my coffee habit


----------



## Zek

tencate said:


> Thanks. These are Model 3 guys right? That does match my experience the first year too. Charging at 120V/20A bumped my electricity bill up about $30 a month. I was hoping the 240V/30A circuit would be a bit cheaper. Hard to tell though without a real watt meter. There are people here who have done that however and, like the Aero wheel covers, I might be saving enough for my coffee habit


When I had 120v16a I was at about 85-88% efficiency. I had a digital meter right before the plug and I compared that to the stats app. Electric Meter vs how much the car changed. I am now on 120v20a and I get a steady 6mph. Not unhappy with this setup. Electric bill is about $30 per month. If I would upgrade to 240v I would likely not realize any real saving what so ever. $2-$3 per month would pay back after 10+ years or more. NYC ELECTRIC WORK IS VERY VERY PRICY.

The only problem with 120v is when it's below 20F you can't charge and heat the car at the same time. Not a huge problem.

While traveling I had a chance to plug into a destination charger over night. What's nice about 240v is while it was -6F - I was able to charge and melt the snow by heating the car for the entire night! likely cost $6-$8 just for that night.


----------



## Zek

__
https://www.reddit.com/r/teslamotors/comments/dwuttq


----------



## garsh

Zak said:


> Another data point:


I appreciate the enthusiasm, but I'm not sure why you keep posting these stories.

It's perfectly acceptable to charge on 120v. But the question being asked was, "*is it better for the battery to charge more slowly than 32 amps*"? The answer to that is "no".


----------



## MelindaV

Zak said:


> Real Data Point! " I've had no issues charging at 120V these past 2yrs+ . Zero range anxiety in day to day usage - I don't think the battery level ever gets much below 45-50% on a given day (unless on a road trip when of course there are Superchargers to use). No noticeable battery degradation - maybe slow charging and only to 65% is a factor in that, I don't know, but I'm happy about that. My incremental electricity cost since getting the car isn't big, so any small efficiency loss charging at the lower voltage isn't of concern to me. Yes charging at home with 240V would be great if possible, but an overnight charge at 120V is plenty for my usage and may be for yours"
> https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/problems-with-120v-charging.108577/


That is antidotal anecdotal, not evidence


----------



## MelindaV

FRC said:


> anecdotal?


Autocorrect, and 4am


----------



## Zek

garsh said:


> I appreciate the enthusiasm, but I'm not sure why you keep posting these stories.
> 
> It's perfectly acceptable to charge on 120v. But the question being asked was, "*is it better for the battery to charge more slowly than 32 amps*"? The answer to that is "no".


Do we have a 10 year old Model 3? No we don't. What I said is we wont know for sure for 10 years and I think I was asked to post links to my opinions. And its very likely possible that 120v charging will be 1% better after 10 years.

"scientists still don't fully understand many of the fundamentals of what exactly happens inside"

https://www.popularmechanics.com/sc...lithium-ion-battery-degradation-study-nature/

I am choosing to charge from 120v at home and super charge on trips. If I would not use super chargers I would very likely install and charge from 220v. Yes there is very likely a very very small tiny difference in longevity. 
I am sorry if my opinion offends you.


----------



## garsh

Zak said:


> ...I think I was asked to post links to my opinions.


I don't believe anybody asked for opinions. You had shared data. Specifically, this:


Zak said:


> 120V/20A Is 5% less efficient than 220V.
> 1 - Slower charging is better (Slightly)


Since what you had posted _directly contradicted_ the studies that I had posted, I asked you to share links to articles or studies from which you had obtained these numbers. I am very interested in any new studies on these topics. But now it sounds like you are saying that these were just your opinions, and not based on any studies or comparisons.


> I am sorry if my opinion offends you.


Offended? No. I'm disappointed to find out that you misrepresented your opinion as fact. Please don't do that. You're not doing anybody a favor by contradicting information provided by experts such as Professor Dahn.


----------



## garsh

Zak said:


> "scientists still don't fully understand many of the fundamentals of what exactly happens inside"
> 
> https://www.popularmechanics.com/sc...lithium-ion-battery-degradation-study-nature/


True. But Professor Dahn is one of the scientists who has been studying these issues for many years. He's figured out much of what *does* happen inside, as well as what factors affect battery life, and how to perform reasonable lifetime testing on batteries in short timeframes.

This is a talk he gave over six years ago about why Lithium Ion batteries die. It's quite long, but it's fascinating what they were able to determine back then, and the methods they were able to develop to test these things. I've also included a TED talk he gave two years ago. It's a much shorter overview.


----------



## Zek

garsh said:


> I don't believe anybody asked for opinions. You had shared data. Specifically, this:
> Since what you had posted _directly contradicted_ the studies that I had posted, I asked you to share links to articles or studies from which you had obtained these numbers. I am very interested in any new studies on these topics. But now it sounds like you are saying that these were just your opinions, and not based on any studies or comparisons.
> Offended? No. I'm disappointed to find out that you misrepresented your opinion as fact. Please don't do that. You're not doing anybody a favor by contradicting information provided by experts such as Professor Dahn.


1 - fact: I have measured my own 120v charging to be about 5% less efficient then 220v (with a digital meter and all) 
2 - fact: Savings in efficiency wont pay for the outlet difference in NYC 
3 - fact: people that used 120v charging at home for 3-4 years have sean ever so slightly Very slightly less battery degradation (1-2 miles less). Yes its within error rate, and yes its possible that these people are OCD about depth of discharge as well. 
4 - fact: 120v will struggle with significant cold weather, Solution is to plug in right after driving while the battery is warm. 
5 - fact: low C charging is always better for batteries

Opinions out there differ on the impact of less then 1C charge rate. But I heard the argument that simply driving hard and Regenerative braking puts more strain on the battery then you gain by slow charging it. this is very logical that fast charge and faster discharge creates more opportunity for battery damage.

Opinion: After 10 years of 120v you may see 1% less battery degradation


----------



## Zek

garsh said:


> True. But Professor Dahn is one of the scientists who has been studying these issues for many years. He's figured out much of what *does* happen inside, as well as what factors affect battery life, and how to perform reasonable lifetime testing on batteries in short timeframes.
> 
> This is a talk he gave over six years ago about why Lithium Ion batteries die. It's quite long, but it's fascinating what they were able to determine back then, and the methods they were able to develop to test these things. I've also included a TED talk he gave two years ago. It's a much shorter overview.


Six years ago they did not know how to look inside the battery with X rays. Also they still don't fully understand the physics of charging! Electrons are funny little quantum wave things that just happen to have the probability of tunneling and just jumping orbits. Wild!!!

The old charging "theory" was that electrons behaved in a somewhat orderly way like soldiers. The newer "Theory" Is that electrons just kind of jump into their energy state in lumps.

This is a very very long read
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2590116819300116
In some tests charging at .1c was not more beneficial then 1c (this is the core of our disagreement) 
However if you carefully look at uneven heat build up in a cylindrical cell. Over a 10 year charge discharge cycle you will certainly see a difference with slower charging. We will know in 10 years as to who is right.


----------



## Zek

garsh said:


> I appreciate the enthusiasm, but I'm not sure why you keep posting these stories.
> 
> It's perfectly acceptable to charge on 120v. But the question being asked was, "*is it better for the battery to charge more slowly than 32 amps*"? The answer to that is "no".


Best charging is very likely to be 240v at 16a if you want to keep the car for 20+ years. And 40%-60% Dod. Never go fast


----------



## Zek

garsh said:


> I appreciate the enthusiasm, but I'm not sure why you keep posting these stories.
> 
> It's perfectly acceptable to charge on 120v. But the question being asked was, "*is it better for the battery to charge more slowly than 32 amps*"? The answer to that is "no".


We should move on. 
"A standard 240V outlet will get you 32A, or almost precisely C/10, which is kinda the definition of a "slow charge" for LiIon."
Looks like 120v16a is C/20 so there may not be any "meaningful" difference. "Maybe" 1 mile after 10 years.


----------



## garsh

Zak said:


> 2 - fact: Savings in efficiency wont pay for the outlet difference in NYC


That's off-topic for this thread. The original poster has a 240v charger, and was asking if she should lower the charge rate.


> 5 - fact: low C charging is always better for batteries


False. Once the charge rate is "low-enough", then degradation is proportional to time spent charging. I provided citations for this. If you have a study to back up what you're saying and contradicts what I've shared, then please share it. Your opinions and anecdotes don't support your argument that I'm wrong.


Zak said:


> We should move on.


It's funny how people often say that _after _they get in the last word.
Or in this case, the last four posts.


----------



## Zek

garsh said:


> That's off-topic for this thread. The original poster has a 240v charger, and was asking if she should lower the charge rate.
> False. Once the charge rate is "low-enough", then degradation is proportional to time spent charging. I provided citations for this. If you have a study to back up what you're saying and contradicts what I've shared, then please share it. Your opinions and anecdotes don't support your argument that I'm wrong.
> 
> It's funny how people often say that _after _they get in the last word.
> Or in this case, the last four posts.


Again I am agreeing with you here! Their by saying we should move on.

But personally I wish that I would have supper charged less and to a smaller SOC less then 80% and plugged in more often into a 120v outlet. Now 220v would likely be "about the same" as 120v.


----------



## Klaus-rf

MelindaV said:


> Washington state's latest distracted driver law specifically lists various things, including drinking & eating. others were phones, pets, kids, other occupants, etc. essentially, if the cop pulling you over feels you were not properly paying attention to driving, you could be ticketed for being distracted.


 Sounds like a bad state to pilot a Greyhound bus in. Although I don't recall much for pets on buses.


----------



## JasonF

Bokonon said:


> Looks like I have a couple of letters to write when I get back to Boston... One to Sen. Markey, and the other to my House rep.... Who happens to be his primary opponent. 🤔


Tell them both that they can't paaahk their caaahr in haavahd yaaahd.


----------



## John Tomson

garsh said:


> Wait....
> Was that from Command and Conquer?


Yes, it was from Command and Conquer and Red Alert.


----------



## bwilson4web

Don't forget to pack and carry:







.

Bob Wilson


----------



## Unplugged

JWardell said:


> "New lane change code"
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1200232181022498821


This got me to wondering, what is license plate routing"?

Perhaps in Canada, can they tell what province you're from and send you to the right area? Perhaps Autopilot sees lots of out-of-area license plates and routes you in another direction? (All of those foreigners have to slow up traffic!)


----------



## Hugh_Jassol

I’d like to know this as well. Although it is China.... so prob som gov’t tracking scheme


----------



## ibgeek

Unplugged said:


> This got me to wondering, what is license plate routing"?
> 
> Perhaps in Canada, can they tell what province you're from and send you to the right area? Perhaps Autopilot sees lots of out-of-area license plates and routes you in another direction? (All of those foreigners have to slow up traffic!)


It's something that is becoming more and more popular these days. You see it in parts of Europe as well.

The idea is to limit the amount of traffic in areas by routing traffic based on your license plate. Odd/even numbered plates are allowed to enter places like a city center on alternating days.
Not a government tracking conspiracy. In fact this is explained in the thread that follows that twitter post.


----------



## Bigriver

ibgeek said:


> The idea is to limit the amount of traffic in areas by routing traffic based on your license plate. Odd/even numbered plates are allowed to enter places like a city center on alternating days.
> Not a government tracking conspiracy. In fact this is explained in the thread that follows that twitter post.


I was in Beijing in 2008 around the time of the Olympics and it was explained to me as a means of limiting pollution. I had the impression at that time that it was specifically implemented for the Olympics. Perhaps it worked well enough that they put in place permanently. Or maybe my info was wrong. Anyway, if linked to pollution at all, EVs should get a pass!


----------



## ibgeek

Bigriver said:


> I was in Beijing in 2008 around the time of the Olympics and it was explained to me as a means of limiting pollution. I had the impression at that time that it was specifically implemented for the Olympics. Perhaps it worked well enough that they put in place permanently. Or maybe my info was wrong. Anyway, if linked to pollution at all, EVs should get a pass!


In most places it is linked to pollution. Some places also use it to limit traffic though.


----------



## slasher016

fritter63 said:


> I've never owned a Ford.... Fix Or Repair Daily!


I never understand that acronym. What's the difference between fix and repair? Found on Road Dead is much better.


----------



## fritter63

slasher016 said:


> I never understand that acronym. What's the difference between fix and repair? Found on Road Dead is much better.


*F*ix *O*r *R*epair *D*aily fits the acronym?


----------



## garsh

fritter63 said:


> *F*ix *O*r *R*epair *D*aily fits the acronym?


I think he's just saying that he finds *F*ound *O*n *R*oad *D*ead to be less redundant.


----------



## MelindaV

JasonF said:


> How is the RWD model holding up on snowy days with all of the hills there? (I used to live in the area, so I'm curious)


you may not want to come out to the west coast if you consider Ohio hilly.


----------



## slasher016

MelindaV said:


> you may not want to come out to the west coast if you consider Ohio hilly.


Ohio isn't hilly, but Cincinnati is.


----------



## JasonF

MelindaV said:


> you may not want to come out to the west coast if you consider Ohio hilly.


As Slasher said above, most of Ohio/Kentucky are flat, but there's a tiny space where they meet (Cincinnati OH, Covington KY, etc) where it's very hilly. It looks like geologically Ohio crashed into Kentucky a million years ago and caused the corners to wrinkle.

It's not quite as bad as San Francisco - few places would beat that, except some in Japan, maybe - but it's _really_ close.

In particular, I used to live close to an area called Pleasant Ridge, which isn't just a clever name. Every way in or out of it is a steep grade, and if it snows, dozens of cars get trapped in the area, unable to leave, until the snow plow shows up.


----------



## MelindaV

slasher016 said:


> Ohio isn't hilly, but Cincinnati is.


googling it, the difference between the low and high elevations is less than my daily commute, which I don't consider relatively hilly 



> *Cincinnati* contains only modest *variations* in *elevation*, with a maximum *elevation* change of 282 feet





> *Portland* contains very significant *variations* in *elevation*, with a maximum *elevation* change of 866 feet


and when we are unfortunate enough to get snow, only the major roads (IE freeway) are plowed, and mostly a little too little a little too late to be useful.


----------



## slasher016

MelindaV said:


> googling it, the difference between the low and high elevations is less than my daily commute, which I don't consider relatively hilly
> 
> and when we are unfortunate enough to get snow, only the major roads (IE freeway) are plowed, and mostly a little too little a little too late to be useful.


You're looking only in the city limits. The actual city limits of Cincinnati are actually very small. Cincinnati is a little different that most major areas. Cincy population is only ~280,000 but the metro area is 2,000,000. Very few people actually live/work in the city. There's not a huge elevation change either -- it a lot of moderately steep ones that go up a several hundred feet. For example the area around the University of Cincinnati is very hilly. The annual UC race I do every year and it's brutal. The low point is 361 ft and a few miles later you're at 763 ft. In Cincy you're not going up a thousand feet, but you're going up 200-400' in a short horizontal distance.


----------



## MelindaV

Here's my drive from this evening


----------



## garsh

MelindaV said:


> Here's my drive from this evening


I don't think anyone is arguing that Portland isn't hillier than Cincinnati.

All that was said was that Cincy was hilly. Not mountainous. Not *the* hilliest. Just hilly.


----------



## MelindaV

garsh said:


> I don't think anyone is arguing that Portland isn't hillier than Cincinnati.
> 
> All that was said was that Cincy was hilly. Not mountainous. Not *the* hilliest. Just hilly.


And I was just pointing out what hilly looks like


----------



## GDN

MelindaV said:


> And I was just pointing out what hilly looks like


I'm wondering if I can get TX in on this conversation! LOL. We can see for 20 miles flat here.


----------



## Tesla Newbie

GDN said:


> I'm wondering if I can get TX in on this conversation! LOL. We can see for 20 miles flat here.


Gotta love Texas. I have a 27 speed bike and haven't changed the gear in eleven years.


----------



## StromTrooperM3

GDN said:


> The problem there is you already know that whatever you drive off the lot with them will never improve one bit, not one bit after the day you take delivery.


The Etron is getting a battery and range improvement. I use almost none of the games and toys Tesla includes. Just give me a premium cabin, minimal service issues, and I'm a happy camper


----------



## StromTrooperM3

FRC said:


> Please keep us informed regarding the status of your refund request.


I will dispute with Amex if necessary. I paid for a product advertised to be delivered by year end. End of story.

If Tesla doesn't budge my Y pre-order will be cancelled as well. No big deal lots of new EV options coming to market 😀


----------



## StromTrooperM3

M3OC Rules said:


> 30-40% of people buy FSD and if they didn't Tesla wouldn't be profitable.


They had a profitable couple of quarters, however they are about as from from profitable as you can get lol


----------



## slacker775

I think places like WeWork and Uber May have something to say about Tesla being as far from profitable as you can get.....


----------



## StromTrooperM3

M3OC Rules said:


> says 30-40% of people buy FSD and if they didn't Tesla wouldn't be profitable.


Except they aren't profitable at all. They've just had a couple of good quarters up to this point.


----------



## Dr. J

StromTrooperM3 said:


> Except *they aren't profitable at all.* They've just had a couple of good quarters up to this point.


What constitutes "profitable" if not profitable quarters? Four in a row? Three out of five? A full fiscal year of profitability? Operating profitability? What's the hurdle?

I take exception to the "at all" phrasing, since clearly Tesla has been profitable in more than one quarter, and significantly profitable in the most recently reported quarter. So while not consistently profitable, Tesla clearly shows glimmers of hope.


----------



## StromTrooperM3

Dr. J said:


> What constitutes "profitable" if not profitable quarters?


When your red column is higher than your black column that constitutes an overall lack of being profitable


----------



## StromTrooperM3

Jay79 said:


> benefit from the extra money I paid


Insert standard fanboy "but but but but you got to enjoy it for months before anyone else" justification here 😉😎


----------



## MelindaV

But when profits are measured in financial quarters …


----------



## StromTrooperM3

MelindaV said:


> But when profits are measured in financial quarters …


Sounds like typical Tesla justification


----------



## Dr. J

StromTrooperM3 said:


> When your red column is higher than your black column that constitutes an overall lack of being profitable


Pics please. I don't get it.

https://arstechnica.com/cars/2019/1...-143-million-in-q3-2019-on-record-deliveries/

"For comparison, Tesla lost $408 million in Q2 2019, which followed even heavier losses in Q1 2019. In a presentation to investors ahead of a conference call this afternoon, Tesla stated that this newfound profitability "was possible by removing substantial cost from our business." Despite the fact that average sale prices have decreased (as consumers buy many more, cheaper Model 3 variants and many fewer Model 3 Performance or Models S or X), Tesla says its automotive gross margin is now 22.8%. That's higher than it's been previously in 2019."


----------



## StromTrooperM3

Q1 loss -702 million
Q2 loss -408 million
Q3 profit 143 million

702 + 408 = 1.1 Billion loss + 143 million profit = 967 million loss. And I'm not gonna go back and look at the last 6 years of losses

They need a ton more profitable quarters to dig themselves out and actually become profitable


----------



## Nom

Well, I get your point ... but. ... I’m glad you don’t manage any of my money. You probably shorted Amazon even after it decide to have non-real ‘profits’ due to its long run of negative income. 😄


----------



## StromTrooperM3

Nom said:


> I'm glad you don't manage any of my money


I'm glad I don't either. You seem unable to distinguish profitability with investment strategy. They are 2 different topics 😂😂

I've been holding AMZN for 8 years now... Maybe you should reconsider 😉


----------



## StromTrooperM3

gary in NY said:


> and given up half the tax incentive


The price of the cars pretty much dropped in parallel to the drop in tax incentives within $500.

Tesla milked the profits from the federal incentives full knowing they could drop the price of the cars thousands after the incentives wore out. This is what really bothers me, "buy now for the best price" was a scam.

Now with the renewal of the federal incentives back up for discussion we're all really gonna get hosed if it goes through.


----------



## StromTrooperM3

Needsdecaf said:


> This combo brings you the least amount of value, for any car. Or said another way, "you gotta pay to play".


Agreed. But not when you're getting 9500 off in incentives. I expected this to offset the deprecation of buying it new, however the deprecation hit was even bigger now that buying one new is cheaper


----------



## DocScott

I've learned not to pay attention to any of Musk's price-predictions or marketing techniques, such as "appreciating asset." Same with promises about being first in line if you buy something now.

Instead, I treat any Tesla purchase as a value proposition for what I get at the time of purchase. Looked at that way, future price changes don't bother me much, because I know I got what I paid for.

And price changes on options can go both ways. I didn't pay extra for black. Now black costs extra. I don't hear a lot of owners of black Teslas saying "wow, I got a windfall--my resale value just went up!"

The one group I do think got screwed were those who paid for FSD in 2018 and _still_ have gotten absolutely nothing in exchange.


----------



## StromTrooperM3

DocScott said:


> I've learned not to pay attention to any of Musk's price-predictions or marketing techniques, such as "appreciating asset."


It seems this appreciating asset garbage is now official reply from Tesla as well


----------



## Needsdecaf

StromTrooperM3 said:


> It seems this appreciating asset garbage is now official reply from Tesla as well


What a crock of crap. How is something not functioning on your car "adding value?"


----------



## StromTrooperM3

Needsdecaf said:


> What a crock of crap. How is something not functioning on your car "adding value?"


My original email says that the order page still says City driving coming by end of year. We know it's not. So it's falsely advertised.

My reply to this email is that hw3 was not fitted and that my car is no different than when I bought it and to return me to EAP and refund my money. If not I'm going to dispute the charge with Amex as I never received the product I ordered


----------



## MelindaV

doesn't really matter what the order page said on a given day - really only what it said when you ordered.


----------



## Needsdecaf

StromTrooperM3 said:


> My original email says that the order page still says City driving coming by end of year. We know it's not. So it's falsely advertised.
> 
> My reply to this email is that hw3 was not fitted and that my car is no different than when I bought it and to return me to EAP and refund my money. If not I'm going to dispute the charge with Amex as I never received the product I ordered


I would tend to agree. I have EAP now and if I had purchased FSD I can't think of anything that I would have on my car now with it that I don't without it. Am I missing something?

In any event, it's an interesting tact to take. I'm not sure you will be successful but wish you luck.


----------



## StromTrooperM3

MelindaV said:


> doesn't really matter what the order page said on a given day - really only what it said when you ordered.


If you order a car today they are telling you you'll get city driving this year. Which is a boldface lie.


----------



## StromTrooperM3

Needsdecaf said:


> I have EAP now and if I had purchased FSD I can't think of anything that I would have on my car now with it that I don't without it.


Smart summon? I purchased FSD before it was released so I'm not sure


----------



## MelindaV

and you seam to have ignored the timing disclaimer


----------



## DocScott

Suggestion to mods:

It is pure luck that I found where this thread went (I happened to check my alerts, which I almost never do). I understand moving threads which drift from the original topic of the thread to another thread, but would it be possible to keep them in the same forum? This is still pretty much a discussion related to firmware, and if it was in a topic within that forum it would be pretty easy to find. Moving it to the "off topic" _forum_, though, makes it seem like it's not on topic for Tesla Owners Online at all, which certainly isn't the case.


----------



## Needsdecaf

StromTrooperM3 said:


> Smart summon? I purchased FSD before it was released so I'm not sure


Smart Summon part of EAP. I have it. No FSD on my car.


----------



## StromTrooperM3

MelindaV said:


> you seam to have ignored the timing disclaimer


You seem to be ignoring the wording as well.

If it says coming end of year then it should be delivered end of year. If not stop blatantly lying


----------



## aronth5

PaulT said:


> Can someone do a video at a stop light so we can see?


You do realize by asking for this the owner would be violating their agreement with Tesla?


----------



## PaulT

aronth5 said:


> You do realize by asking for this the owner would be violating their agreement with Tesla?


I removed my question/post. sorry about that I didn't know, can you please remove my quote from yours?


----------



## garsh

aronth5 said:


> You do realize by asking for this the owner would be violating their agreement with Tesla?


Considering how many people are already violating their agreements with Tesla by having TeslaFi installed, or by posting pictures to Twitter, I don't think it's unreasonable to make a request like that..


----------



## aronth5

garsh said:


> Considering how many people are already violating their agreements with Tesla by having TeslaFi installed, or by posting pictures to Twitter, I don't think it's unreasonable to make a request like that..


That doesn't make it right. Integrity should mean something but in today's world there is a lack of it. I could not in good conscience ask someone to do something I know is wrong. And for a moderator to condone it is troubling.


----------



## garsh

aronth5 said:


> And for a moderator to condone it is troubling.


In my list of sins, I place "asking someone to post a video of them doing something in a car they own" somewhere below "going 5 mph over the speed limit" and "using the 12-items-or-less lane with 13 items in the cart".


----------



## ibgeek

Never feel shamed out of asking a question. It's up to the answerer to determine if it is appropriate to complete the request. Just accept that they might not be able to answer.


----------



## aronth5

garsh said:


> In my list of sins, I place "asking someone to post a video of them doing something in a car they own" somewhere below "going 5 mph over the speed limit" and "using the 12-items-or-less lane with 13 items in the cart".


So if you signed a NDA would you expect a moderator of a forum thread to encourage others to ask you to violate it?


----------



## ibgeek

Again, the person asking the question holds no moral obligation as long as the question itself is meant to cause harm and this one is not. Ask away, but accept that you might not get an answer.


----------



## aronth5

ibgeek said:


> Again, the person asking the question holds no moral obligation as long as the question itself is meant to cause harm and this one is not. Ask away, but accept that you might not get an answer.


This will be my last reply- A moderator is held to a higher standard a d your condoning this is poor judgement IMO. I get what your trying to say, it's the encouragement that troubles me.


----------



## garsh

aronth5 said:


> This will be my last reply- A moderator is held to a higher standard a d your condoning this is poor judgement IMO. I get what your trying to say, it's the encouragement that troubles me.


Breaching a non-disclosure agreement isn't a sin. It's not even a crime. At worst, it's a breach of contract. And it's not even expensive to breach it - the only possible punishment is to get kicked out of the early access program. Furthermore, to date, nobody has been kicked out of the early access program to my knowledge, even after sharing pictures and videos of what the software can do. Indeed, Elon has even been known to re-tweet videos of people showing what their cars can do under early access software!

I would definitely warn those in early access to make sure they're aware of the terms of the license agreement they signed. But given Tesla's behavior towards those people to date, I see nothing wrong with asking one of those people if they can share a video showing what the car can do.


----------



## garsh

aronth5 said:


> it's the encouragement that troubles me.


I have no issue with encouraging members to ask questions to learn more about their cars. Learning more about the vehicles we own is the main reason why this forum exists.


----------



## MVP

I'm eager for the DashCam Viewer myself but given this separate MY software versioning track we appear to be on who knows when that will reach us. One would have thought the MCU 3.0 hardware in the MY would be identical to the M3 yet here we are on 2020.5.10.x vs 2020.12.5.x. Makes no sense.


----------



## garsh

MVP said:


> I'm eager for the DashCam Viewer myself but given this separate MY software versioning track we appear to be on who knows when that will reach us. One would have thought the MCU 3.0 hardware in the MY would be identical to the M3 yet here we are on 2020.5.10.x vs 2020.12.5.x. Makes no sense.


The software also controls all of the other hardware within the vehicle, and a lot of that hardware (like radar heater and octovalve) are quite different than what's on the Model 3.

Once Tesla feels like they've solved the worst of the Model Y-specific bugs, then they'll start working towards getting all the vehicles on the same release of software.


----------



## MVP

garsh said:


> The software also controls all of the other hardware within the vehicle, and a lot of that hardware (like radar heater and octovalve) are quite different than what's on the Model 3.
> 
> Once Tesla feels like they've solved the worst of the Model Y-specific bugs, then they'll start working towards getting all the vehicles on the same release of software.


I'm a software developer and 3x Tesla owner (S, X and now Y) so I'm a bit annoyed that my new car & model "may" have a back-level software version from the current fleet with less standard features. It's like buying a brand new PC with an Intel Core i9 processor but shipped with Windows 7. Also, the specialized software/firmware needed to run all the newer hardware of the MY appears to have been incorporated into this back-level version (V5.x) as all of my systems are working currently. Tesla developers should have merged these changes into the latest version code branch (V12.x) prior to delivering these vehicles, IMHO. I understand we will eventually be getting everything with OTA updates buy shouldn't all buyer of Tesla's newest model at least get the latest software as well?


----------



## garsh

The same thing happened to the Model 3 when it was first introduced. Tesla eventually got all vehicles on the same major software stream.


MVP said:


> I'm a software developer...


What kind of software development do you do that doesn't involve several versions of hardware to support and branching of releases to isolate development of various features from each other?


----------



## MVP

garsh said:


> The same thing happened to the Model 3 when it was first introduced. Tesla eventually got all vehicles on the same major software stream.What kind of software development do you do that doesn't involve several versions of hardware to support and branching of releases to isolate development of various features from each other?


A.I. and Big Data currently. But I've worked in varying industry segments including automotive & manufacturing design as I have both software & engineering degrees. And the very idea of software, specifically firmware, is to be able to support differing hardware offerings under a single code trunk. It appears we have been given a code branch that has yet to be merged into the V12.x trunk. Tesla should have performed the merge and all regression testing prior so that they would not have to spend more time addressing technical debt that they themselves created.


----------



## John Di Cecco

Sounds like the either the Tesla dev team is a bunch of numbnuts or there are other factors and considerations you are not aware of. Where are the odds?


----------



## sduck

Perhaps if this thread is drifting away from the topic, it should be unstickied?


----------



## katrinli

Hi, Im a new one here, I was wondering should I set up a racing steering wheel. I mean, I like the way it looks but I’m not that sure about the practical side. Does anybody have it? Is that suitable in terms of options and stuff. Which one would you recommend? (Model x)


----------



## garsh

katrinli said:


> Hi, Im a new one here, I was wondering should I set up a racing steering wheel. I mean, I like the way it looks but I'm not that sure about the practical side. Does anybody have it? Is that suitable in terms of options and stuff. Which one would you recommend? (Model x)


What's a "racing steering wheel"?


----------



## FRC

katrinli said:


> Hi, Im a new one here, I was wondering should I set up a racing steering wheel. I mean, I like the way it looks but I'm not that sure about the practical side. Does anybody have it? Is that suitable in terms of options and stuff. Which one would you recommend? (Model x)


Welcome to the forum! @garsh's reply above might have sounded a tad harsh to your ear, but I know he didn't mean it that way. I actually agree with Garsh in that I don't know what product you're referring to. It would help if we knew what steering wheel you're considering and tell us a bit about how you would use it.


----------



## katrinli

Hi guys, I was wondering if anybody knows where can I order the plastic license plate to stick on my baby instead of metal ones. I saw it on a car near my house ones. Just don’t want to poke holes in the bumper. 😅 I'll leave the image of what Im talking about attached.


----------



## Bigriver

katrinli said:


> I was wondering if anybody knows where can I order the plastic license plate


I ordered these from Amazon.
Aujen Silicone License Plate Frame, 2 PCS License Plate Holder, Universal American Auto Black License Plate Frame Rust-Proof, Rattle-Proof, Weather-Pr 
It looks like there are white options from other companies. Seems that maybe "silicone license plate" is a good search term. There have also been a number of people selling them on Etsy, I believe, particularly with options to say Tesla or something.


----------



## garsh

katrinli said:


> Hi guys, I was wondering if anybody knows where can I order the plastic license plate to stick on my baby instead of metal ones. I saw it on a car near my house ones. Just don't want to poke holes in the bumper.


The front license plate bracket that Tesla provides doesn't require drilling holes. It just sticks on with adhesive.


----------



## Needsdecaf

Bigriver said:


> I ordered these from Amazon.
> Aujen Silicone License Plate Frame, 2 PCS License Plate Holder, Universal American Auto Black License Plate Frame Rust-Proof, Rattle-Proof, Weather-Pr
> It looks like there are white options from other companies. Seems that maybe "silicone license plate" is a good search term. There have also been a number of people selling them on Etsy, I believe, particularly with options to say Tesla or something.





garsh said:


> The front license plate bracket that Tesla provides doesn't require drilling holes. It just sticks on with adhesive.


If you look closely at the original comment, the poster is looking for an actual sticker "license plate". Not a stick-on license plate frame. As far as I know such stickers are illegal and not sure where you'd buy one, other than making one yourself.


----------



## garsh

Needsdecaf said:


> If you look closely at the original comment, the poster is looking for an actual sticker "license plate". Not a stick-on license plate frame.


katrinli's comment (to which I was replying) also mentioned not wanting to "poke holes" in the bumper. I just wanted to make sure they realized that the OEM bracket did not require any holes to be made, and therefore it's not necessary to resort to a not-quite-legal vinyl plate replica.


----------



## Dr. J

Needsdecaf said:


> If you look closely at the original comment, the poster is looking for an actual sticker "license plate". Not a stick-on license plate frame. As far as I know such stickers are illegal and not sure where you'd buy one, other than making one yourself.


Surprisingly, legal in California (at least per this vendor):
https://licenseplatewrap.com/

And apparently in Canada, per this vendor:
https://licenceplate.ca/

Tagging @katrinli


----------



## Bigriver

And yep, I totally missed the importance of the word “stick” in @katrinli’s post.


----------



## JWardell

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1283137158631620611@TrevP

Well technically here our box starts with Kraft and ends with Dinner so I guess you canucks are just summarizing...
...and some of us still eat it in our 40s


----------



## littlD

JWardell said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1283137158631620611@TrevP
> 
> Well technically here our box starts with Kraft and ends with Dinner so I guess you canucks are just summarizing...
> ...and some of us still eat it in our 40s
> 
> View attachment 34865


And dogs still wait for the scraps to fall from the table (see lower right of picture)!


----------



## Needsdecaf

Every time I hear "Kraft Dinner" I think of:


----------



## orekart

The person I met earlier this year who lost their parent to wrapping their Tesla around a pole would not find so amusing the casual disregard here for what I've said.

It's a freaky-quick personal roller-coaster thrill machine and none of the driving sensations you're used to from piloting a Mercedes GLA 45 AMG will help if you end up in some kind of panic situation. Pedestrians and motor vehicle traffic at low speeds do not know you're there. I really shouldn't have to defend suggesting that an experienced driver take it easy until they're used to a drastically different drive-train vehicle than they've become accustomed to?


----------



## garsh

orekart said:


> The person I met earlier this year who lost their parent to wrapping their Tesla around a pole would not find so amusing the casual disregard here for what I've said.
> 
> It's a freaky-quick personal roller-coaster thrill machine and none of the driving sensations you're used to from piloting a Mercedes GLA 45 AMG will help if you end up in some kind of panic situation. Pedestrians and motor vehicle traffic at low speeds do not know you're there. I really shouldn't have to defend suggesting that an experienced driver take it easy until they're used to a drastically different drive-train vehicle than they've become accustomed to?


If you want to recommend that an experienced driver take it easy until they've become accustomed to a Tesla's acceleration, that's fine. But the tone of your previous post was condescending.


----------



## GDN

Needsdecaf said:


> ....
> 
> My biggest beef with the car is the all Google ecosphere. Those guys already have enough of a tracer on me, I really don't want to let them that far into my life. Maybe I should just stop caring, LOL.
> 
> ......


I'll buy anything else you say about the car, but when you quit caring about Big Brother and Big Business and let this happen the world has become lost.


----------



## Garlan Garner

jjuday30 said:


> What are the best 3rd party apps and why?


I refuse to give away the login and password to the most expensive/valuable purchase I've made in a long time.


----------



## garsh

Madmolecule said:


> Elon electrify Cuba, now more than ever


Ok, I'll bite.

What exactly do you want Elon to do to Cuba?


----------



## Madmolecule

Thanks,

I was born in Fort Lauderdale and have been near Cuba my whole life. They might have done some bad stuff in the 50s, but all I've witnessed is the United States persecuting this beautiful jewel in the Caribbean.

I bought into the belief that Elon was not just your normal entrepreneur, that was trying to over compensate for shortcomings by having the biggest stack of cash. I thought sustainability to further humankind, not just the earth what is a key belief of his.

Cuba is a blank slate, everything is old and outdated. I feel this is a perfect place and a perfect opportunity for Tesla to change history. More specifically Elon. I don't see this as a short term financial gain that the board would approve, even though I think it would be the greatest marketing Tesla could ever do. This needs to be done with* Elon's money.*


level two and superchargers stations
Fleets of model 3, Y, 2s and vans
Star link - Bring the Internet and more importantly education to all Cubans.
solar Lots of sunshine if you can't make it work here you can't make it work
Power wall and micro grids
tesla Air-conditioning
launch site for new Tesla phone
launc site for new Tesla security cameras
launch site for Tesla new life pilot
How about even a launch site for SpaceX. The island is huge.
It should be a safe investment. This is not Venezuela, the United States should be able to squelch any government overreach

The roads suck so this is a perfect place for pure vision and Robo taxi testing.

Cuba has earned a reputation of being stuck in history, with outdated everything. I believe Cuba could become a country that is regarded as the portal to the future. Instead of going there to see what cars were like in the 50s, people will go there from around the world to see future technology being tested and implemented. Not only Tesla technologies but this could also be applied the agriculture, manufacturing and healthcare. Also perfect place for climate change studies. It would've been nice if my windshield wipers were tested on canvas thunderstorms before I am stuck having to control them manually in Atlanta. Due to necessity Cubans also have a great nack for recycling, virtually all glassware are just bottles with the tops cut off. When you are an island cut off from the rest of the world, sustainability is the only option.

*Most importantly Cuba's leaders are helpless. They have no positive way out of their current situation. They might be oppressive tyrants, but even if they had a good heart, we have severely limited their possibilities. I believe this is something that could lift the Cuban people, help fix the government, have global support and could be viewed as the greatest humanitarian mission ever accomplished. Cuba has everything but hope, and something to believe it. They have beauty intelligence and abundant natural resources. They just need Elon, we don't need to wait for a hurricane to provide aid. The people of Cuba only know hurricane*

Cuba has some very intelligent people, they also produce the best baseball players, the combination of intelligence and skill could be the ultimate proving ground for technologies. Elon could assist Cuba ain't going from a backwards country stuck in the past to the country that is the beta test ground for all Teslas advanced and upcoming technologies. I still say F Mars. Wouldn't it be amazing, in our lifetimes to go visit Cuba and not only see the most beautiful island in the Caribbean but get a glimpse of future technologies that will be coming out in the next few moths or years. A beautiful permanent, worlds fair, black mirror, baseball and bikinis. I can't sell any harder than that.

but please Elon electrify Cuba!!!

I cannot think of anything for the boring company to do in Cuba. We could certainly use them in Atlanta. We have a big scar on Stone Mountain. It is a beautiful granite or marble rock that could be turned into one of the wonders of the world. The whole rock could be carved up with beautiful artwork on the outside, and no Elon you can't have your face on it, the inside could be hollowed out and turned into a marble Hotel, convention center an entertainment facility. It might take a joint partnership with Home Depot, but we need to make the South proud for something other than our second place finish in a war, and the Clemson Tigers. I don't care about going to Mars, but I would love to see a laser drone carving up a mountain.

Elon, now I'm talking directly to you (I believe in the power of Trevor) If you even thought for 30 seconds last week, that you need to go to space and prove that you can go farther in space than any other billionaire you should go online and apologize and instantly commit $10 billion of your own money to electrifying Cuba. It would be much more impressive to see some dirt poor kid from Cuba make the trip to space then a billionaire. I think everyone believed the first people to space would be the billionaires











*So far all we're doing is responding with sanctions. We can't let Artists fix everything, scientist must be involved also. I would love to see the stones come back this fall. My dream continues with the three fours, 444, Richards, Musk and Cook concurring darkness and bringing the light to Cuba. Cuba could become one of the most futuristic countries and a cultural center for humanity by 2035 with Elon's help.

Also another idea to get gigafactory Berlin open, say the first six months production will all go to Cuba. Take that vw

Cuba. It's just a Shout Away!!!*


----------



## FRC

I'm posting into this thread for one reason only. I miss @Love, Lovesword, the KING of this thread. No one can compete with his ability to be off-topic. Come on back @Love, we miss ya'


----------



## JWardell

FRC said:


> I'm posting into this thread for one reason only. I miss @Love, Lovesword, the KING of this thread. No one can compete with his ability to be off-topic. Come on back @Love, we miss ya'


Some say he's still waiting for v9...


----------



## FRC

That's effin' funny @JWardell, effin' funny!!!


----------



## sonoswen

Just a short question from a new Model 3 owner (AWD LR ) that pickup my car Sept 4, 2021.
Speed setting...only goes to 90 mph..what's up with that?
Thanks 
Never mind, I figured it out.


----------



## FRC

sonoswen said:


> Just a short question from a new Model 3 owner (AWD LR ) that pickup my car Sept 4, 2021.
> Speed setting...only goes to 90 mph..what's up with that?
> Thanks
> Never mind, I figured it out.


A warning, if you exceed 90 mph while using the lane keep assist(TACC) you will be punished with no TACC for the remainder of your drive. To defeat the "time out" you must stop, and put the car in park before continuing your drive. It's not hard to inadvertently put yourself in time out when passing someone.


----------



## shareef777

Yet another variant I’ll skip (after the MYP) because Tesla continues to be stingy and lock my FSD vehicle to a vehicle that’ll probably never see FSD.


----------



## PNWmisty

shareef777 said:


> Yet another variant I'll skip (after the MYP) because Tesla continues to be stingy and lock my FSD vehicle to a vehicle that'll probably never see FSD.


It's my understanding that Tesla has only ever offered FSD for the vehicle it was purchased for so I don't see why you would be angry about that. If that's not what you want, then don't buy it.

Complaining that they "lock it to the vehicle" is like complaining because you bought a load of firewood with free delivery anywhere in Ohio but that they refuse to deliver it to Illinois. It's non-sensical. You knew (or should have known) what you were buying.


----------



## shareef777

PNWmisty said:


> It's my understanding that Tesla has only ever offered FSD for the vehicle it was purchased for so I don't see why you would be angry about that. If that's not what you want, then don't buy it.
> 
> Complaining that they "lock it to the vehicle" is like complaining because you bought a load of firewood with free delivery anywhere in Ohio but that they refuse to deliver it to Illinois. It's non-sensical. You knew (or should have known) what you were buying.


ORRRRR, I can wallow in my misery any you keep your snide comments to yourself.


----------



## iChris93

PNWmisty said:


> Complaining that they "lock it to the vehicle" is like complaining because you bought a load of firewood with free delivery anywhere in Ohio but that they refuse to deliver it to Illinois. It's non-sensical. You knew (or should have known) what you were buying.


What if you bought it when you lived in Ohio, with an ETA of end of 2018, then you moved to Illinois in the past 3 years before they delivered the firewood and refused to deliver or offer a refund?


----------



## PNWmisty

iChris93 said:


> What if you bought it when you lived in Ohio, with an ETA of end of 2018, then you moved to Illinois in the past 3 years before they delivered the firewood and refused to deliver or offer a refund?


Assuming they told you they could only deliver the wood after they had been issued permits, built an access road, and cut it, and that there was no guarantee how long that would take and that permits might never be issued) I would say they had no obligation to deliver it to another state simply because you no longer wanted the wood in Ohio. The original contract was for wood to be delivered in Ohio, if and when that was possible.


----------



## shareef777

PNWmisty said:


> Assuming they told you they could only deliver the wood after they had been issued permits, built an access road, and cut it, and that there was no guarantee how long that would take and that permits might never be issued) I would say they had no obligation to deliver it to another state simply because you no longer wanted the wood in Ohio. The original contract was for wood to be delivered in Ohio, if and when that was possible.


No one is assuming anything. TESLA is stating end of year (every year for the past 3 years). It literally still says that on their website. Why people continue to defend this is beyond me.


----------



## lance.bailey

when I bought the 3 in end of 2018, I was told that FSD was imminent and regulatory issues were the only hold back. in March/april of 2019 I was told that in order to make FSD happen, I needed a board upgrade - for a couple of grand (on sale!), so I shelled out the money. Now - years later I am moderately closer to FSD (traffic lights, lane changing) but not really that much closer.

There is now a model Y, which fits in the garage where the X did not, so the Y is attractive, and both the Y and the current 3 have a few upgrades that I would enjoy, but to either upgrade the 3 or replace with a Y would mean losing the money (11K CDN) and time I have put into the potential of FSD, which - if you remember - was "imminent" at the time of purchase. That investment of time and money will not let me replace or trade in the 3 if it means losing the FSD potential. Not ability, potential - that is all we have, potential.

Knowing what I know now, I would have rather put the money into a LR battery and dual motors. Financially I would be smidge further ahead and I would have enjoyed them a lot more than I am enjoying the "potential".

This month I take delivery of a new SUV format EV, and it is not a Y - I've learned my lesson.


----------



## shareef777

lance.bailey said:


> when I bought the 3 in end of 2018, I was told that FSD was imminent and regulatory issues were the only hold back. in March/april of 2019 I was told that in order to make FSD happen, I needed a board upgrade - for a couple of grand (on sale!), so I shelled out the money. Now - years later I am moderately closer to FSD (traffic lights, lane changing) but not really that much closer.
> 
> There is now a model Y, which fits in the garage where the X did not, so the Y is attractive, and both the Y and the current 3 have a few upgrades that I would enjoy, but to either upgrade the 3 or replace with a Y would mean losing the money (11K CDN) and time I have put into the potential of FSD, which - if you remember - was "imminent" at the time of purchase. That investment of time and money will not let me replace or trade in the 3 if it means losing the FSD potential. Not ability, potential - that is all we have, potential.
> 
> Knowing what I know now, I would have rather put the money into a LR battery and dual motors. Financially I would be smidge further ahead and I would have enjoyed them a lot more than I am enjoying the "potential".
> 
> This month I take delivery of a new SUV format EV, and it is not a Y - I've learned my lesson.


I have similar animosity towards Tesla because of FSD. I've got both a CT and F150-EV on order. Regardless of my feelings, I can't deny the CT is ahead in my decision on which of the two I'll go with. Tesla's specs per dollar just can't be beat.

Though the Rivian R1T/R1S are starting to catch my eye.


----------



## PNWmisty

shareef777 said:


> No one is assuming anything. TESLA is stating end of year (every year for the past 3 years). It literally still says that on their website. Why people continue to defend this is beyond me.


Actually, it doesn't say that on their website and it never has. Currently it says Autosteer on city streets is coming later this year. Autosteer is not Full Self Driving. I'm not sure why I understood the timing risks when I bought in 2018 and you didn't.

Actually, I do. It's because I read Tesla's statement on what I was buying. I'm not kidding.


----------



## Madmolecule

Tesla sold the firewood and is now growing the tree. It will be the greatest firewood ever, grown specifically for burning. A game changer in BTUs and beauty. Everyone must understand growing trees are very hard and takes a lot time, especially on city streets. Not to mention this time of year is very tough on foliage.


----------



## PNWmisty

Madmolecule said:


> Tesla sold the firewood and is now growing the tree. It will be the greatest firewood ever, grown specifically for burning. A game changer in BTUs and beauty. Everyone must understand growing trees are very hard and takes a lot time, especially on city streets. Not to mention this time of year is very tough on foliage.


True, and global warming is not making it any easier!


----------



## shareef777

PNWmisty said:


> Actually, it doesn't say that on their website and it never has. Currently it says Autosteer on city streets is coming later this year. Autosteer is not Full Self Driving. I'm not sure why I understood the timing risks when I bought in 2018 and you didn't.
> 
> Actually, I do. It's because I read Tesla's statement on what I was buying. I'm not kidding.


Cool, so provide "autosteer on city streets". Shoot provide ANYTHING, cause we got NOTHING.


----------



## PNWmisty

shareef777 said:


> Cool, so provide "autosteer on city streets". Shoot provide ANYTHING, cause we got NOTHING.


The current schedule for rollout of "Autosteer on city streets" is this year, by the end of the year. They cannot provide it until it's ready.

For me, that's not hard to understand.


----------



## shareef777

PNWmisty said:


> The current schedule for rollout of "Autosteer on city streets" is this year, by the end of the year. They cannot provide it until it's ready.
> 
> For me, that's not hard to understand.


They said the same thing in 2018/2019/2020, but apparently you have a hard time understanding that.


----------



## PNWmisty

shareef777 said:


> They said the same thing in 2018/2019/2020, but apparently you have a hard time understanding that.


Well, that's not accurate. We took delivery of two FSD ,cars in 2018 and never in my wildest imagination (let alone guidance from Tesla) did I expect to have Autosteer on city streets by the end of 2018. But it's true that the development effort is behind estimated dates and has been for some time. But those dates were always an estimation of something that everyone knew could not be predicted with absolute certainty.


----------



## shareef777

PNWmisty said:


> Well, that's not accurate. We took delivery of two FSD ,cars in 2018 and never in my wildest imagination (let alone guidance from Tesla) did I expect to have Autosteer on city streets by the end of 2018. But it's true that the development effort is behind estimated dates and has been for some time. But those dates were always an estimation of something that everyone knew could not be predicted with absolute certainty.


Can't say for certain what was said in 2018, but I can unequivocally say I was told end of year in March 2019 when I bought my 3. I get and understand delays (I'm in the technology field). Didn't happen in 2019 so it was pushed back to 2020, no biggie. When THAT came and went, Tesla should have stood up and offered something to their early buyers. If it's not ready it should have been a refund and/or the option to migrate to another vehicle. Something... ANYTHING... not complete silence while they continue to add to the list of people they're duping. Do you seriously think it's OK for any company to be YEARS behind (THEIR OWN) schedule on a purchased product and just tell their customers "oh well"? Or do you only give that slack to Tesla?


----------



## lance.bailey

What a company (or reps of a company) have said, and what the customers have in their imagination (wild or otherwise) are two different things.

Not expecting something to actually happen does not negate it being said that it will happen.


----------



## iChris93

PNWmisty said:


> Well, that's not accurate. We took delivery of two FSD ,cars in 2018 and never in my wildest imagination (let alone guidance from Tesla) did I expect to have Autosteer on city streets by the end of 2018. But it's true that the development effort is behind estimated dates and has been for some time. But those dates were always an estimation of something that everyone knew could not be predicted with absolute certainty.


Tesla has absolutely said Autosteer on City Streets "this year" for several years. Musk makes it seem like he can predict with absolute certainty by giving such precise estimates. I know better now but certainly didn't when I purchased the vehicle in 2018.


----------



## PNWmisty

iChris93 said:


> Tesla has absolutely said Autosteer on City Streets "this year" for several years. Musk makes it seem like he can predict with absolute certainty by giving such precise estimates. I know better now but certainly didn't when I purchased the vehicle in 2018.


How could you not know? Tesla even said certain aspects of FSD were beyond their control. Even if Tesla hadn't said it outright, it's pretty darn obvious that such a development effort is not guaranteed to succeed in any given timeframe.


----------



## iChris93

PNWmisty said:


> How could you not know? Tesla even said certain aspects of FSD were beyond their control. Even if Tesla didn't say it outright, it's pretty darn obvious that such a development effort is not guaranteed to succeed in any given timeframe.


Guess I was gullible and Musk was a good salesman. Stupid me.


----------



## PNWmisty

iChris93 said:


> Guess I was gullible and Musk was a good salesman. Stupid me.


Well, Musk has since admitted the FSD problem is more difficult than he initially believed but I would say you jumped to conclusions that were unwarranted. If you want to characterize that as gullible I'm not gonna stop you.


----------



## iChris93

PNWmisty said:


> Well, Musk has since admitted the FSD problem is more difficult than he initially believed but I would say you jumped to conclusions that were too optimistic. If you want to characterize that as gullible I'm not gonna stop you.


No doubt my conclusions were optimistic but I just bought what they were selling.


----------



## PNWmisty

iChris93 said:


> No doubt my conclusions were optimistic but I just bought what they were selling.


Well, I can see you are never going to come to terms with the fact that Tesla never sold it with a guaranteed date of completion. But that's the fact of the matter and no amount of parsing Elon's words will change that. So we will just have to agree to disagree.


----------



## garsh

PNWmisty said:


> Well, I can see you are never going to come to terms with the fact that Tesla never sold it with a guaranteed date of completion.


 "come to terms" means to learn to accept and deal with an unpleasant situation. It seems to me that he has done exactly that.

He realizes that he was mislead. No, those earlier dates were not a guarantee written into a contract, but they were communicated as more than just aspirational. Now that we've had years of Elon giving dates and missing them, we know better. We now know to take such dates with a pile of salt.


----------



## shareef777

iChris93 said:


> No doubt my conclusions were optimistic but I just bought what they were selling.


*weren't selling


----------



## shareef777

PNWmisty said:


> Well, Musk has since admitted the FSD problem is more difficult than he initially believed but I would say you jumped to conclusions that were unwarranted. If you want to characterize that as gullible I'm not gonna stop you.


He's since admitted, but continues to take money for 🤦‍♂️


----------



## shareef777

PNWmisty said:


> Well, I can see you are never going to come to terms with the fact that Tesla never sold it with a guaranteed date of completion. But that's the fact of the matter and no amount of parsing Elon's words will change that. So we will just have to agree to disagree.


Sure seems to me like TESLA is the one that hasn't come to terms with the fact that FSD isn't anywhere near available considering they're still selling FSD and have been marking it up like it's just around the corner.

THAT is the heart of my frustration. I can live with my early purchase (early adopters fee), but the fact that he's continuing to scam people YEARS after realizing it's NOT around the corner is the frustrating part.


----------



## PNWmisty

garsh said:


> "come to terms" means to learn to accept and deal with an unpleasant situation. It seems to me that he has done exactly that.


As long as someone is still complaining, they haven't "come to terms". As for "dealing with an unpleasant situation", he has no choice but to abide by the terms of the purchase/sale agreement. It's not a choice.



garsh said:


> He realizes that he was mislead. No, those earlier dates were not a guarantee written into a contract, but they were communicated as more than just aspirational. Now that we've had years of Elon giving dates and missing them, we know better. We now know to take such dates with a pile of salt.


He believes he was misled but the word "misled" implies someone purposefully misled him. A more accurate word would be "misunderstood". Because that puts the blame where it belongs, on the person who, without good reason, believed there was some kind of guarantee as to when the task would be completed. That was obviously never the case.

Question for you Garsh: Do you believe I was wrong to understand there was no guaranteed FSD completion date (since Tesla has never told me there was) and that I assumed Elon might be under-estimating the timeline that it would take to reach various stages of FSD (because it's obvious that no one could know with any certainty when various milestones would be reached)?

That's all I'm saying. Specifically, that people have to take responsibility when they make obviously wrong assumptions, not blame it on someone else or call it "being misled" simply because the estimate ended up being not correct or the task was more difficult that believed. And it's been clear all along that any timeline provided was always an estimation, without any certainty that it could be obtained.

Why do people always try to blame it on someone else when things don't go their way?


----------



## shareef777

PNWmisty said:


> As long as someone is still complaining, they haven't "come to terms". As for "dealing with an unpleasant situation", he has no choice but to abide by the terms of the purchase/sale agreement. It's not a choice.
> 
> He believes he was misled but the word "misled" implies someone purposefully misled him. A more accurate word would be "misunderstood". Because that puts the blame where it belongs, on the person who, without good reason, believed there was some kind of guarantee as to when the task would be completed. That was obviously never the case.
> 
> Question for you Garsh: Do you believe I was wrong to understand there was no guaranteed FSD completion date (since Tesla has never told me there was) and that I assumed Elon might be under-estimating the timeline that it would take to reach various stages of FSD (because it's obvious that no one could know with any certainty when various milestones would be reached)?
> 
> That's all I'm saying. Specifically, that people have to take responsibility when they make obviously wrong assumptions, not blame it on someone else or call it "being misled" simply because the estimate ended up being not correct or the task was more difficult that believed. And it's been clear all along that any timeline provided was always an estimation, without any certainty that it could be obtained.
> 
> Why do people always try to blame it on someone else when things don't go their way?


Honest question. How long can someone say they'll do something, then NOT do it before they'd be considered a liar in your book?

Hint: seems like it's years in your book


----------



## Madmolecule

*I was blatantly misled by Tesla and Elon on the delivery dates for FSD.*
even more frustrating is they still have not defined what FSD will do.
they have not defined what city streets mean
they have not defined what interaction the driver will be required, and their level of participation
admitting that it's hard, does not excuse at all the fact that Elon said it was close to being finished and it is amazing. Those were blatant lies. It was not close to being finished, it is not a battle of the 9s, and it is not amazing, and will require driver 100% responsibility.
yes I am the fool, that thought the car would be an investment. But I have a 2018 computer, and battery, and a lot of fantasy Uncertainty and doubt
I have spent thousands of dollars, waiting for a product to be defined by tweet, or by YouTube shills. It might be the new way of doing car business but I think it just sucks.
I believe the fact that all the software has been stagnant, not just full self driving, that's just been the excuse, Just points to the delay can only be logically do you do a merger with probably Apple. No aspects of the software or infotainment has appreciably approved improved in two years. Very little of the blatant problems with the HMI have been addressed or modified.
Tesla did change the game three years ago, but I am over watching game changing YouTube videos, speculating on game changing moves that Tesla has done.
Elon has also made it very clear he will never admit failure or mistakes. Just look at hyper loop, haha. I don't expect it on FSD, the semi, giga Berlin, the roadster, unpainted stainless.
elon is just the pitch and hype man. I even used to believe his focus was on engineering and not on promotion.
we did teach the Chinese how to manufacture an amazing vehicle, At least there's no chance the Chinese would screw us over. Unless they decide to crap on the US, like Elon did to California, after they were responsible for helping his company launch.
radar bad, moisture sensors bad, haha
I'm believe most Tesla owners feel they can't fix customer service because they're too focused on finishing FSD first. I'm starting to believe, they think their cars are just that good, and will sell with her without customer service.

Elon electrify Cuba 🇨🇺


----------



## iChris93

JWardell said:


> Just like I know the tri-state area specifically means NY/NJ/CT.


I'm not from the area, but is this known? Wikipedia gives several options https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tri-state_area


----------



## JWardell

iChris93 said:


> I'm not from the area, but is this known? Wikipedia gives several options https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tri-state_area


I don't think this article is written for common use, I have never heard of many of these despite living in them. NY/NJ/CT is referred to daily on the news, and commercials, but the others sound like they could be referred to but are not commonly. It's laughable to see it documented for the Boston area, no one would ever say that here.


----------



## garsh

JWardell said:


> I don't think this article is written for common use, I have never heard of many of these despite living in them. NY/NJ/CT is referred to daily on the news, and commercials, but the others sound like they could be referred to but are not commonly. It's laughable to see it documented for the Boston area, no one would ever say that here.


I grew up hearing daily about "the tri-state area", but it referred to PA/OH/WV.
So I'm guessing that's a regional thing.


----------



## Madmolecule

Madmolecule said:


> Thanks,
> 
> I was born in Fort Lauderdale and have been near Cuba my whole life. They might have done some bad stuff in the 50s, but all I've witnessed is the United States persecuting this beautiful jewel in the Caribbean.
> 
> I bought into the belief that Elon was not just your normal entrepreneur, that was trying to over compensate for shortcomings by having the biggest stack of cash. I thought sustainability to further humankind, not just the earth what is a key belief of his.
> 
> Cuba is a blank slate, everything is old and outdated. I feel this is a perfect place and a perfect opportunity for Tesla to change history. More specifically Elon. I don't see this as a short term financial gain that the board would approve, even though I think it would be the greatest marketing Tesla could ever do. This needs to be done with* Elon's money.*
> 
> 
> level two and superchargers stations
> Fleets of model 3, Y, 2s and vans
> Star link - Bring the Internet and more importantly education to all Cubans.
> solar Lots of sunshine if you can't make it work here you can't make it work
> Power wall and micro grids
> tesla Air-conditioning
> launch site for new Tesla phone
> launc site for new Tesla security cameras
> launch site for Tesla new life pilot
> How about even a launch site for SpaceX. The island is huge.
> It should be a safe investment. This is not Venezuela, the United States should be able to squelch any government overreach
> 
> The roads suck so this is a perfect place for pure vision and Robo taxi testing.
> 
> Cuba has earned a reputation of being stuck in history, with outdated everything. I believe Cuba could become a country that is regarded as the portal to the future. Instead of going there to see what cars were like in the 50s, people will go there from around the world to see future technology being tested and implemented. Not only Tesla technologies but this could also be applied the agriculture, manufacturing and healthcare. Also perfect place for climate change studies. It would've been nice if my windshield wipers were tested on canvas thunderstorms before I am stuck having to control them manually in Atlanta. Due to necessity Cubans also have a great nack for recycling, virtually all glassware are just bottles with the tops cut off. When you are an island cut off from the rest of the world, sustainability is the only option.
> 
> *Most importantly Cuba's leaders are helpless. They have no positive way out of their current situation. They might be oppressive tyrants, but even if they had a good heart, we have severely limited their possibilities. I believe this is something that could lift the Cuban people, help fix the government, have global support and could be viewed as the greatest humanitarian mission ever accomplished. Cuba has everything but hope, and something to believe it. They have beauty intelligence and abundant natural resources. They just need Elon, we don't need to wait for a hurricane to provide aid. The people of Cuba only know hurricane*
> 
> Cuba has some very intelligent people, they also produce the best baseball players, the combination of intelligence and skill could be the ultimate proving ground for technologies. Elon could assist Cuba ain't going from a backwards country stuck in the past to the country that is the beta test ground for all Teslas advanced and upcoming technologies. I still say F Mars. Wouldn't it be amazing, in our lifetimes to go visit Cuba and not only see the most beautiful island in the Caribbean but get a glimpse of future technologies that will be coming out in the next few moths or years. A beautiful permanent, worlds fair, black mirror, baseball and bikinis. I can't sell any harder than that.
> 
> but please Elon electrify Cuba!!!
> 
> I cannot think of anything for the boring company to do in Cuba. We could certainly use them in Atlanta. We have a big scar on Stone Mountain. It is a beautiful granite or marble rock that could be turned into one of the wonders of the world. The whole rock could be carved up with beautiful artwork on the outside, and no Elon you can't have your face on it, the inside could be hollowed out and turned into a marble Hotel, convention center an entertainment facility. It might take a joint partnership with Home Depot, but we need to make the South proud for something other than our second place finish in a war, and the Clemson Tigers. I don't care about going to Mars, but I would love to see a laser drone carving up a mountain.
> 
> Elon, now I'm talking directly to you (I believe in the power of Trevor) If you even thought for 30 seconds last week, that you need to go to space and prove that you can go farther in space than any other billionaire you should go online and apologize and instantly commit $10 billion of your own money to electrifying Cuba. It would be much more impressive to see some dirt poor kid from Cuba make the trip to space then a billionaire. I think everyone believed the first people to space would be the billionaires
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *So far all we're doing is responding with sanctions. We can't let Artists fix everything, scientist must be involved also. I would love to see the stones come back this fall. My dream continues with the three fours, 444, Richards, Musk and Cook concurring darkness and bringing the light to Cuba. Cuba could become one of the most futuristic countries and a cultural center for humanity by 2035 with Elon's help.
> 
> Also another idea to get gigafactory Berlin open, say the first six months production will all go to Cuba. Take that vw
> 
> Cuba. It's just a Shout Away!!!*


Elon the time is now. Cuba is the best solution for spacex. Texas is clearly not the solution for the quantity of launches necessary, and your off shore platforms could not be engineered efficient. The perfect place to launch. Stop listening to Rogan and start listening to engineers.

i also heard the boring company is building a tunnel is Miami. This is the last place I thought they would have success. Elon will not only revolutionize HVAC but he will bring basements to south Florida. I thought Miami was built on a coral sponge. That is why seawalls would not be effective for global warming there. I am ready for my ride.


----------



## Pearl1

Moderator, why this need to censor? Are you saying we the reader is too stupid to comprehend or too weak to disregard? What happened to America? Honestly. For all I know, most like so, your’re not an American. FWIW, there’s this document called the US Constitution. It made (past tense) America free and the exemplar for the world. You should go check it out. Its has these things called Amendments. You’ll never guess what the 1st one is.


----------



## garsh

I thank you for bringing up the topic of this bill. It's an important issue and deserves more exposure. But your last sentence about what political group to blame for the bill's creation and support is unnecessary.

When you joined this forum, you agreed to follow the forum rules:
https://teslaownersonline.com/help/terms/
In particular:

"TeslaOwnersOnline.com is not the place for debate on religion, sex, *politics*, or other such controversial posts not directly related to issues having to do with electric cars;"​​


Pearl1 said:


> Moderator, why this need to censor?


Every time we've tried to be lenient with this rule in the past, a thread ends up blowing up with people arguing and going off-topic. It's not constructive.

Our goal is to encourage the adoption of electric vehicles (of which Teslas are some of the best) among people of any political affiliation. We do not wish to alienate users of any political affiliation.



Pearl1 said:


> FWIW, there's this document called the US Constitution. It made (past tense) America free and the exemplar for the world. You should go check it out. Its has these things called Amendments. You'll never guess what the 1st one is.


The First Amendment means that you can't be arrested or detained by the government for speaking your beliefs. It does not mean that a forum has to allow discussions on any topic.


----------



## FRC

Pearl1 said:


> Moderator, why this need to censor? Are you saying we the reader is too stupid to comprehend or too weak to disregard? What happened to America? Honestly. For all I know, most like so, your're not an American. FWIW, there's this document called the US Constitution. It made (past tense) America free and the exemplar for the world. You should go check it out. Its has these things called Amendments. You'll never guess what the 1st one is.


I don't know which moderator edited your post or what your post said. It's possible that your post needed no edit. But in my experience here, moderators don't edit on a whim. When they edit is in order to remain true to the stated rules of this forum (you might like to read them). Political statements are heavily discouraged here [I think] because they tend to be divisive and argumentative, and generally devolve to negativity and name-calling. There are other sites for that type of discussion. You can make your point without sparking an unwanted political debate.


----------



## Pearl1

garsh said:


> I thank you for bringing up the topic of this bill. It's an important issue and deserves more exposure. But your last sentence about what political group to blame for the bill's creation and support is unnecessary.
> 
> When you joined this forum, you agreed to follow the forum rules:
> https://teslaownersonline.com/help/terms/
> In particular:
> 
> "TeslaOwnersOnline.com is not the place for debate on religion, sex, *politics*, or other such controversial posts not directly related to issues having to do with electric cars;"​​
> Every time we've tried to be lenient with this rule in the past, a thread ends up blowing up with people arguing and going off-topic. It's not constructive.
> 
> Our goal is to encourage the adoption of electric vehicles (of which Teslas are some of the best) among people of any political affiliation. We do not wish to alienate users of any political affiliation.
> 
> The First Amendment means that you can't be arrested or detained by the government for speaking your beliefs. It does not mean that a forum has to allow discussions on any topic.


No talk of politics, then this entire thread should be deleted. Hello. This thread is about legislation which is by its very definition politics.

My point was not one of jurisprudence. Discourse yields understanding. Like Elon, I, as we all should be, am free speech absolutist. Why are we so afraid of free speech? All of you who are threatened and triggered by free speech, need some help. Honestly, what is wrong with you people? I am speaking to Americans. We the People. Other, countries and cultures, you do you.

This forum is a waste if we can't talk. To comply with the rules, next time I'll post something really useful and constructive, like a picture of my dog in the frunk.


----------



## garsh

Pearl1 said:


> Other, countries and cultures, you do you.


This is a Canadian website, FYI.


----------



## garsh

Pearl1 said:


> No talk of politics, then this entire thread should be deleted. Hello. This thread is about legislation which is by its very definition politics.


Yes, there is some nuance here. We allow discussion of legislation. What we try not to allow is disparaging remarks about members of a political group.


----------



## SalisburySam

@garsh, nicely handled.


----------



## JasonF

In support of @garsh - I moderate other things (not on this forum), and while I give people a little leeway sometimes and don't stomp on them right away, I try not to allow political discussion there either. The reason why is because there is no such thing as a polite political discussion. It always degrades into fighting, and then one side of the argument tends to leave and abandon the forum or chat to only one political point of view.

Which means basically, any place that allows and/or encourages political discussion inevitably becomes firmly "owned" by one political side or the other. That might feel more comfortable to some people, but on a forum like this it causes things to become single minded not just in politics, but in opinion about Tesla. And if that happens, none of us _learn_ anything. We all either see tons of posts telling us what we already know.

So a good job to the moderation team for preventing that!


----------



## Madmolecule

Feature request (expanded stalk modes)

I think it is time to expand the “driving” modes selected from the stalk

other than the base modes the owner should be able to select which modes are available. Also which modes are available while moving

a few of the modes in no particular order

Park
Home Park
Driving
Driving with Passenger
driving with Dogs
Neutral
Carwash
touring
shopping
commuting
joyride
cruising

should have an array of user setpoints and preferences for each mode.

At minimum I would love to see a matrix detailing the differences between dog, camp, keep on (needs a new name) as far ac climate, lights, sound, locks etc.


the biggest error is to forget every input is information and not just data. your computer does not know me that well, and stop acting like it will anytime soon


----------



## TrevP

I've been on forums long enough to know that politics is just something you don't want when your intent is to have a civil friendly place for people to enjoy.

It's one of the rules I had when I started this whole thing. @garsh is right, there are nuances to discussing but we're very strict about attacks on people. That's not tolerated here


----------



## Madmolecule

my understanding is it removes radar and adds catquest, cold weather improvements and premium connectivity


----------



## Madmolecule

gary in NY said:


> I used auto park for the first time last week. It parked the car perfectly between two cars in a tight spot, and did it in a reasonable amount of time. I expected worse based on prior comments.


I need to find a parallel spot to try it. Did they ever release the auto park for summon? I tried summon today at the park and it failed miserably. I was only about 150ft away, it backed out the space, turned the wrong way, drove away for about 20ft and stopped on the wrong side of the parking lane blocking traffic while I chased it down.


----------



## Madmolecule

Madmolecule said:


> I need to find a parallel spot to try it. Did they ever release the auto park for summon? I tried summon today at the park and it failed miserably. I was only about 150ft away, it backed out the space, turned the wrong way, drove away for about 20ft and stopped on the wrong side of the parking lane blocking traffic while I chased it down.


Not sure how this is off-topic, just pointing out where the software doesn't work for me, Has never worked for me and trying to figure out how other users have such great success. I guess this is not something for an owners forum. It's just hard to tell what are features, enhancements, gimmicks or just pure vapor. My girlfriend freaked out when she was navigating to Asheville the other night and somehow got it into cowbell mode. She said there was some guy yelling at her, she did not understand the ancient Blue Öyster Cult reference, which seems to be required to properly operate your vehicle. 
I don't mind if the moderators delete me or move my post to off-topic, but I must point out that I think you guys are a little bit off-topic. do you guys use summon? Is it improved in the beta? Is it meant to be a feature or is it just a gimmick like rainbow Road?


----------



## Madmolecule

The birdseye camera view really shows how weak Tesla’s video stitching is.


----------



## iChris93

Madmolecule said:


> The birdseye camera view really shows how weak Tesla's video stitching is.


Where do we see Tesla's video stitching?


----------



## Madmolecule

I haven’t. It’s typical Tesla, you never know whether the system is not capable of doing it, the engineers don’t know how, or Elon has just deemed that it is something we do not need, like waypoints


----------



## Madmolecule

I also want optional icon graphics like windows 3.11, maybe even flying toasters


----------



## Madmolecule

I have, what I think is a fun idea, that might solve a few problems:

*By time for Tesla to finish the roadster or cancel it without a political hit.
Showcase Tesla's technology and leadership in the AI space
Take care of influencers, who shilled hard for Tesla, for the promise of great rewards*

I think they should release model S race edition. for all people who qualified for the free Roadster, Tesla should have enough money to still give you guys the free roadster if it ever comes out, so I don't know if it's a disqualify you for that perk.

it should only be a limited run for this express purpose of rewarding influencers and well healed customers

Some of the features I would like to see in the race edition:

A unique Tesla race color
Race Seating with Air Conditioning for the chair driver and copilot only reason
carbon fiber body would be cool
4860 cells
automated wing and downforce kit
cool roll cage
accident avoidance
communication with other race teslas
all other road legal race stuff
10 additional 4K cameras for streaming and telemetry (the perfect influencer car) built in with driver and copilot vanity monitors

The main feature would be race AI and telemetry
Sophisticated copilot seat as well as race telemetry like never before.
The remote drivers team, could monitor everything as well as change the different parameters and variables for the driver assisted race modes.

I think where the marketing comes in is Tesla should release this with a race similar to Cletus McFarland's freedom 500. But there should be 500 vehicles at least for the race. Each participant should be given a special race edition model S as well as $50,000 for custom race wrapping or customization for each participant. The race could happen over multiple heats for a week or a month, time limit really doesn't matter since it will create a marketing buzz for create the greatest driver and team.

The race mode of the AI would not be FSD, but I think it would be cool if some Tesla teams. Competed in truly FSD's mode. I feel a driver, with AI assistants, and a race team via telemetry would be able to beat the FSD for some time.

I think it would totally change racing and make it much better for the spectator, combining racing high-performance vehicles and video games.

it would be great to watch the telemetry of a driver lock on to the car in front of it and set up an automated pass.

as far as locations, I was thinking Laguna Beach, Tesla Austin factory, but Florida space coast would probably be the best although Cuba would still be the best place to showcase this revolutionary automobile technology. Las Vegas for CES could accommodate it best

Teams should be given access to simulator software for both the driver and the telemetry tailored to the specific race course for them to practice a month or so prior to the race

To drag race a plaid for me is just a waste, I would much rather see the combination of driving skills, Automation and a high performance vehicle.

elon should also race

The common Tesla race camera feeds should be provided to all the participants to combine with their personal vehicle feeds, allowing additional revenue stream for all the participants to post their race video and increase the Tesla Marketing

finally to cover the SpaceX version of the roadster prize, the winner of the race, since they already have the vehicle, should get a ride to space.

also free tires and factory repairs to all vehicles after the race
tesla should also allow participants to put whatever sponsors they want on their wraps. This could be another great revenue stream or reward for the early believers

Make all the drivers carry the same payload. So whether there's one two or no drivers equalize the weight. Make charging an integral part to the strategy. It's not only speed but battery efficiency and charging efficiency. only have 50% of the megaChargers as the number of racers


----------



## Madmolecule

I wonder if Tesla has considered the subscription model for batteries like Vinfast. I'm actually surprised that test I didn't come up with his game changing nickel and dime technology

https://electrek.co/2022/04/14/vinf...etails-of-its-mandatory-battery-subscription/


----------



## Madmolecule

As an owner, I state not only my disappointments but also the successes that Tesla has based on my experience with my vehicle. I’m sorry you think Tesla is all blue sky and a tirade is not warranted but my God at some point you guys will get frustrated with the Tesla BS. If this forum only wants positive opinions from Tesla Shills and not true headache experiences of using their product and they’re terrible service and support and customer service then feel free to block me or delete me I really don’t care. I probably have the record of post that I’ve been relocated to the no zip sorting been But I don’t care it just shows what the forum is really about

if any other company sold you a product and has not even come close to providing it in four years after purchase it it on a new vehicle would be unacceptable with any company except Tesla. Even worse Elon became the richest man on the planet on the backs of us early adopters. Yes I am pissed, yes I feel I was taking advantage of, yes I feel anytime Tesla is not giving the details it’s because they are embarrassed about the details.

i’m sorry if my negativity doesn’t add the positivity this form desires, but it’s nice to see Trevor even opening up after the shackles have been removed. The funny part is Elon is pushing for more free speech, but the Tesla forum seems to regarded as political rhetoric, instead of just an owner that is dissatisfied with his purchase and the direction of the company that he purchased the product from.


----------



## garsh

Madmolecule said:


> If this forum only wants positive opinions from Tesla Shills and not true headache experiences of using their product and they're terrible service and support and customer service then feel free to block me or delete me I really don't care. I probably have the record of post that I've been relocated to the no zip sorting been But I don't care it just shows what the forum is really about


No problem with negative posts.

But for goodness sake, please try to remain on-topic in each thread. We don't want every single thread to turn into complaining about random unrelated issues.


----------



## Madmolecule

having more than one thought in a post shouldn’t be that big of a problem, but it also gives you guys an easy excuse why valid points should be relegated to where no one will see you then. It just seems like it’s more about controlling the message than allowing owners to share their experiences even if they don’t go along with the narrative Tesla is trying to portray. I will continue to post my thoughts even if they are with more than one thought post. Soon Eon will be able to control the message on Twitter also, Not free it up but control the messaging


----------



## garsh

Madmolecule said:


> having more than one thought in a post shouldn't be that big of a problem, but it also gives you guys an easy excuse why valid points should be relegated to where no one will see you then. It just seems like it's more about controlling the message than allowing owners to share their experiences even if they don't go along with the narrative Tesla is trying to portray. I will continue to post my thoughts even if they are with more than one thought post. Soon Eon will be able to control the message on Twitter also, Not free it up but control the messaging


If it makes you feel cool to feel like the moderators of the forum have something against you, then I have news for you. This isn't some personal moderator vendetta against you. Other _users_ have complained to us! A couple members have complained about how you've been incessantly turning several threads into your personal complaint soapbox. Posting your stream-of-conscious thoughts into every thread you visit lowers the signal-to-noise ratio for users of this forum.

Us moderators would be quite happy to let your on-topic posts be. Please feel free to start new threads with your thoughts if you're not on-topic for the current thread. Or find an existing thread on the topic. But given the volume of your posts, we (moderators) don't have the time or energy to search for appropriate threads for you, so we'll continue moving them to the off-topic thread.


----------



## shareef777

garsh said:


> If it makes you feel cool to feel like the moderators of the forum have something against you, then I have news for you. This isn't some personal moderator vendetta against you. Other _users_ have complained to us! A couple members have complained about how you've been incessantly turning several threads into your personal complaint soapbox. Posting your stream-of-conscious thoughts into every thread you visit lowers the signal-to-noise ratio for users of this forum.
> 
> Us moderators would be quite happy to let your on-topic posts be. Please feel free to start new threads with your thoughts if you're not on-topic for the current thread. Or find an existing thread on the topic. But given the volume of your posts, we (moderators) don't have the time or energy to search for appropriate threads for you, so we'll continue moving them to the off-topic thread.


Not to gush, but your work does not go unnoticed. Thanks for keeping the place clean :thumbsup:

I've had my own posts relegated to "off-topic/ranting" thread, and it's a nice and humble reminder that these forums are for the masses, and people aren't obligated to listen to my constant dribble about how crappy my FSD purchase has been 😂


----------



## Madmolecule

I will just make a new topic for each of my thoughts. I could care less if the moderators have it out for me, as I am not trying to prove anything, get likes, or run a business. I just feel the moderators are fine with off-topic comments as long as they are glowing about Tesla. I have many responses to my post that have been very off-topic and very negative and frankly very false, not one of them have been relocated. I’m not want to complain and actually enjoy seeing it, but that’s just me. I guess if none the folks complain, off topic is great. I’ve seen many suck up blatantly on the forums in hopes to get on the FSD’s list. Some even make videos. Even a lot of the typical Tesla shills were punished by not being invited to Texas because they had bought Rivian’s or have said negative things about Tesla. It all goes back to Elon trying to control the message instead of letting the technology speak for itself. That is all the referral program was. Now he has twitter.

yes, I was one of the ones that believed Elon he was a great Engineer, humanitarian and environmentalist. I was wrong on all accounts, and I’m not afraid to admit it.

I even get a kick out of how many other folks try to separate Elon, Tesla, spaceX, boring company. They are all one in the same and should be painted with the same brush.

but I could just be a confused old man, and we should be seeing a bot prototype anytime, that works looks, and functions anything like the PowerPoint presentation. Elon it’s just a carnival barker that got lucky


----------



## garsh

Madmolecule said:


> I just feel the moderators are fine with off-topic comments as long as they are glowing about Tesla.


Then you're reading WAY too much into our actions. This isn't a full-time job for us - we're just volunteers. The forum is so popular now that there's no possibility of us reading and reacting to every post. Most of our effort is spent on killing off the spambots and human spammers. We're pretty good at finding and reacting to those pretty quickly, so the majority of regular members don't realize just how often we're dealing with those. For other issues, we often only take actions when one (or more) of our users reports an issue. And congratulations, you've garnered our attention simply due to the number of users who've reported your off-topic missives. 

Try not to take it personally. I've had MANY of my posts moved to this off-topic thread, both before AND after becoming a moderator. As you can see, many people still read and respond to the posts within this thread. It's not a wasteland - it's just an easy place for us moderators to move posts to.



Madmolecule said:


> I will just make a new topic for each of my thoughts.


When you're starting a new topic, after typing the title, the forum software attempts to find similar existing threads and lists those as alternatives. Please examine that list, and if one of those existing threads matches your topic, go ahead and post to that thread instead.


----------



## iChris93

Just a PSA for anyone who sees it: use the report button! That way all the moderators see it and it makes our job a little easier.


----------



## Madmolecule

Those evil people that post more than one thought per post need to be reported and dealt with. Even if all the thoughts are related to owners experience with Tesla. Hopefully Elon will have his bot finished soon, so he can help you remove those annoying spambots. He should have Twitter fixed any day now.


----------



## iChris93

Madmolecule said:


> Those evil people that post more than one thought per post need to be reported and dealt with. Even if all the thoughts are related to owners experience with Tesla. Hopefully Elon will have his bot finished soon, so he can help you remove those annoying spambots. He should have Twitter fixed any day now.


What is the point of this post? @garsh already told you that you could create a thread for each one of your thoughts. The rambles and rants you go on in many threads are not on topic and distract from the conversation of that thread so your posts get moved here. No problem posting about owner's experience but make sure it's on topic. Either find the right thread or make a new one.

My PSA wasn't an attempt to get users to report you. It was just a reminder that the report button is there.


----------



## DocScott

Stovepiping topics has its own risks. 

I would much rather isolated posts not get moved out of a thread because they ramble or mix in different topics. Once there are a few replies that head off in a new direction, I think it's good to make the whole chunk a new thread, as is often done. But a single post really shouldn't be able to "distract" anyone from a conversation.

So, oddly, it's posts that people engage with and create a lively conversation that should, in my opinion, get moved, along with their replies. Ones that don't generate interest quickly scroll up the thread and don't need to be touched.


----------



## garsh

DocScott said:


> But a single post really shouldn't be able to "distract" anyone from a conversation.


Agreed. And if Madmolecule could limit himself to a single post, everything would be fine.

But instead, there are a few threads where he makes multiple off-topic posts to the point where a couple users have reported them. So we started moving them.

I've tried to explain this to him, but it appears that he still believes that the "moderators are out to get him", and has decided that needling the moderators is a good way for him to respond.


----------



## Madmolecule

Sorry I can't limit myself, but moderate as you will. Keep pumping that stock price.

Polestar spotted at the Jazz Fest. I think I might put a deposit down today. Suppose to deliver in October, or with the roadster in 23.


----------



## SalisburySam

Madmolecule said:


> My car is dirty maybe I just need to clean it.


How does it work after washing the car?


----------



## Madmolecule

I still have not cleaned it, it is currently working. My car is filthy, so cleaning could only improve it. I dont see the issue in it creating baselines every day and then prompting you when they need cleaning. For a vision only systems you have to let the light through. Once you do clean all the cameras, you should also be able to hit the cleaned button so the AI knows.


----------



## FRC

Madmolecule said:


> sorry for crying about a perceived waste of $2,000. That's what I'll do, i'll go to the track and test it. That's how I will spend my day. I would prefer just to cry.
> Why don't they sell it anymore? Are the new vehicle slower than mine also Or is it built-in? It is just hard to know with such a transparent company. But I'm also still upset about people trying to sell nitrogen in tires when the air has a fair amount of nitrogen already. Thanks for being such an understanding shoulder for me to cry on, I feel better.
> 
> this should be able to be tested with the canbus microdisplay if someone else has 2018 dual motor, micro display and did not purchase
> boost. It would be nice to be able to turn it on and off to feel the difference


Where the hell is that ignore button???


----------



## GDN

@Madmolecule Do you realize that likely today is the best day you could ever have for getting rid of your Tesla? With gas prices at all time highs and likely one of the biggest constraints ever for new car production, used car prices including Tesla's are at an all time high. You'll likely never have a better opportunity for getting as high a percentage of your price paid back for your car than you will in this market.

You could rid yourself of angst and hate toward Musk and Tesla by capitalizing on today's market. You should consider local sales ads or Carvana, Carmax, Driveway. They all make it pretty easy and painless. Today could be your day.


----------



## DocScott

I think no matter how much they poke at you, moderators should refrain from encouraging forum members to sell their Teslas (and thus implicitly leave the forum). Remove posts if you think they're inappropriate or take other actions, but I don't think it's effective "moderation" to publicly needle a forum member, no matter how annoying they're being.


----------



## GDN

DocScott said:


> I think no matter how much they poke at you, moderators should refrain from encouraging forum members to sell their Teslas (and thus implicitly leave the forum). Remove posts if you think they're inappropriate or take other actions, but I don't think it's effective "moderation" to publicly needle a forum member, no matter how annoying they're being.


You clearly don't understand the job we have as moderators. We are enthusiasts and owners and all have opinions too. Our job as moderators is to keep threads on topic and vet the volumes of spam that hit the site. We move posts and threads when appropriate to keep a thread on topic. It is not a paid job, we are volunteers, we are Tesla owners, we have opinions.

We edited a few posts a few years ago when they were inappropriate, we had protests over that. We don't do that any more, you can say pretty much anything you want on here, voice your opinion, as long as it fits the _terms of service_. If it is said in the wrong thread we'll merge or move, most likely to the Off Topic.

If you or anyone has gotten to the point of taking most any thread off topic by constant complaining and nothing positive to contribute - that is not what this forum is about and you are no longer welcome.

This is a helping forum. A sharing forum. We do not have access to Elon to ask to change the world or your car. Go get you a Twitter account and try to reach him that way. As much as it would be cool, I don't think he is here reading this forum. If you have a problem with your car - check in around here, see if others have it, then open your app and schedule service.


----------



## iChris93

GDN said:


> If you have a problem with your car - check in around here, see if others have it, then open your app and schedule service.


I hope as more vehicles get out of warranty, we can also build a good DIY section. Some, of course, will still require service.


----------



## shareef777

DocScott said:


> I think no matter how much they poke at you, moderators should refrain from encouraging forum members to sell their Teslas (and thus implicitly leave the forum). Remove posts if you think they're inappropriate or take other actions, but I don't think it's effective "moderation" to publicly needle a forum member, no matter how annoying they're being.


Why not? If a user is indicating that something is bringing them misery, the humane/nice thing to do is to tell them to get rid of it (ie, sell it). We're not in a cult here.


----------



## garsh

DocScott said:


> I think no matter how much they poke at you, moderators should refrain from encouraging forum members to sell their Teslas (and thus implicitly leave the forum). Remove posts if you think they're inappropriate or take other actions, but I don't think it's effective "moderation" to publicly needle a forum member, no matter how annoying they're being.


If it was only a bunch of off-topic complaining, we'd move his posts and be done with it. But Madmolecule is doing even more to "poke" at moderators that you don't see. That includes "reporting" posts for moderation - not for anything legitimate, but only to include a snarky report description to further poke at moderators where regular members won't see.

He has become a ridiculously time-consuming issue for moderators. He has caused other members to report *his *behavior to moderators. He's tricking other members into replying to him when they don't realize he's just posting sarcasm and hyperbole (example 1, example 2). These are not the actions of somebody who is trying to constructively engage with a community of Tesla owners.

I have no problem with people complaining about their cars or the company. Lots of us do it, including moderators. But it should be done within the context of helping this community.


----------



## DocScott

garsh said:


> If it was only a bunch of off-topic complaining, we'd move his posts and be done with it. But Madmolecule is doing even more to "poke" at moderators that you don't see. That includes "reporting" posts for moderation - not for anything legitimate, but only to include a snarky report description to further poke at moderators where regular members won't see.
> 
> He has become a ridiculously time-consuming issue for moderators. He has caused other members to report *his *behavior to moderators. He's tricking other members into replying to him when they don't realize he's just posting sarcasm and hyperbole (example 1, example 2). These are not the actions of somebody who is trying to constructively engage with a community of Tesla owners.
> 
> I have no problem with people complaining about their cars or the company. Lots of us do it, including moderators. But it should be done within the context of helping this community.


OK. So throw him off the site. Given what you describe, I think that's appropriate.


----------



## garsh

DocScott said:


> OK. So throw him off the site. Given what you describe, I think that's appropriate.


I don't enjoy kicking people off of this forum. I was hoping to convince him that his irritation towards the moderators was misdirected. And I was hoping that he might see things from our perspective. But yeah, if he continues making trouble despite our efforts, we may end up having to do that.


----------



## Mike

iChris93 said:


> I hope as more vehicles get out of warranty, we can also build a good DIY section. Some, of course, will still require service.


Yesterday, I was able (to sign up for free online) access to the service instructions for my TM3 (did it yesterday).


----------



## Madmolecule

GDN said:


> @Madmolecule Do you realize that likely today is the best day you could ever have for getting rid of your Tesla? With gas prices at all time highs and likely one of the biggest constraints ever for new car production, used car prices including Tesla's are at an all time high. You'll likely never have a better opportunity for getting as high a percentage of your price paid back for your car than you will in this market.
> 
> You could rid yourself of angst and hate toward Musk and Tesla by capitalizing on today's market. You should consider local sales ads or Carvana, Carmax, Driveway. They all make it pretty easy and painless. Today could be your day.


I'm taking bids, what's you offer. I hate to give up all that Robo taxi cash. Or rainbow taxi as I call it


----------



## Madmolecule

garsh said:


> If it was only a bunch of off-topic complaining, we'd move his posts and be done with it. But Madmolecule is doing even more to "poke" at moderators that you don't see. That includes "reporting" posts for moderation - not for anything legitimate, but only to include a snarky report description to further poke at moderators where regular members won't see.
> 
> He has become a ridiculously time-consuming issue for moderators. He has caused other members to report *his *behavior to moderators. He's tricking other members into replying to him when they don't realize he's just posting sarcasm and hyperbole (example 1, example 2). These are not the actions of somebody who is trying to constructively engage with a community of Tesla owners.
> 
> I have no problem with people complaining about their cars or the company. Lots of us do it, including moderators. But it should be done within the context of helping this community.


Sorry for tricking your members into discussion on a forum. I have reported one post in four years, sorry for the excess workload, even tbough the moderators ask other members to report me


----------



## FRC

Madmolecule said:


> Sorry for tricking your members into discussion on a forum. I have reported one post in four years, sorry for the excess workload, even tbough the moderators ask other members to report me


I have never reported you. And no one has ever asked me to report you or anyone else. Our moderators volunteer their hours to try to make this forum as informational, usable, and entertaining as possible. Your incessant rants contribute nothing informational, or usable. For me, your rants can be entertaining on occasion, but their incessant nature is wearisome. I (and I believe many others here) agree with you that Elon has disappointed and misled, but to harp endlessly on this point serves no useful purpose and in fact makes useful conversation more difficult. Why not moderate yourself a bit so that our moderators don't need to, and our forum members can learn from your input?


----------



## Madmolecule

I have never said you reported me and could care less if anyone does. I am just sharing my experience and opinions on an owners forum. I really don’t live my life worried about others. If my post need to be deleted or I need to be banned from the forum, I can accept that. I feel there are enough people on the forum high-fiving each other about the game changing wonders of Tesla. I believe there needs to be a voice for the new owners or the people considering purchasing a Tesla so that they are clear what they are getting into. Since Tesla does no formal advertising this Is their marketing. I believe they are trying to control the message and I am not a fan.

Tesla could easily shut me up, by just providing what they promised and sold me. Is that too much to ask from a company run by the richest man in the world?


----------



## shareef777

Madmolecule said:


> I have never said you reported me and could care less if anyone does. I am just sharing my experience and opinions on an owners forum. I really don't live my life worried about others. If my post need to be deleted or I need to be banned from the forum, I can accept that. I feel there are enough people on the forum high-fiving each other about the game changing wonders of Tesla. I believe there needs to be a voice for the new owners or the people considering purchasing a Tesla so that they are clear what they are getting into. Since Tesla does no formal advertising this Is their marketing. I believe they are trying to control the message and I am not a fan.
> 
> Tesla could easily shut me up, by just providing what they promised and sold me. Is that too much to ask from a company run by the richest man in the world?


FYI, this forum is NOT Tesla. I agree with most of your points, but as others have said, your incessant nagging about all the faults of Tesla aren't needed and it becomes spam. With all due respect, most of your posts tend to remind me of my brother who was diagnosed. I can't speak to how/who you are personally, but if you're as upset with Tesla as these posts seem to indicate, just bail on the company. It's better for your own health and mindset.


----------



## Madmolecule

Thanks for your heartfelt advice. I hope your brother is doing better, with your support I am sure he is doing fine and most of all appreciates you being there with the No judgement support.
.You agree with most of my points, but I have the problem. To have someones opinion, I respect so much, agree with me, means everything,

I think I can wait it out untill Tesla will be Elon free. Love from the bottom to the top


----------



## Madmolecule

China does not seem to be the biggest fan of SpaceX and Starlink. comment Elon? What if Biden had a plan to destroy your toys. Ukraine, no good deed goes unpunished
https://www.livescience.com/china-plans-ways-destroy-starlink


----------



## Madmolecule

I believe that since Tesla has established the value of FSD, they should incorporate a Reverse FSD’s subscription. They should pay evoryone that have purchased it, $200 a month, until they deliver the product, not the beta, but the product that was purchased, that is legal for use on roads where it was purchased for. Maybe we could even get Tom Selleck as the pitch man


----------



## Madmolecule

Mission accomplished! I hear they doubled the catquest and fart mode team.


----------



## Madmolecule

Am I the only one that finds it odd that Tesla is investing any money and talent Resources in the Tesla Bot, using technology allegedly from FSD, when they haven’t even come close to finishing FSD and are laying off people from the labeling team.


----------



## iChris93

Madmolecule said:


> Am I the only one that finds it odd that Tesla is investing any money and talent Resources in the Tesla Bot, using technology allegedly from FSD, when they haven’t even come close to finishing FSD and are laying off people from the labeling team.


No


----------



## francoisp

Madmolecule said:


> Am I the only one that finds it odd that Tesla is investing any money and talent Resources in the Tesla Bot, using technology allegedly from FSD, when they haven’t even come close to finishing FSD and are laying off people from the labeling team.


There are several possibilities:
- Musk has "a bad feeling about the economy" despite a healthy order book (a model Y ordered today won't be delivered until April 2023). He's trying to cut costs preemptively, damn FSD and all that

- FSD is progressing well and not so many people are needed in the labeling department

- Tesla has over extended itself with the new gigafactories and needs to cut costs

- Musk is cutting costs as an attempt to increase the share price so he can exercise his options at a higher price to buy Twitter


----------



## shareef777

francoisp said:


> - FSD is progressing well


----------



## Madmolecule

Untested software (or only tested by a simulator), lack of motivation (profit) on the older installed base Is my belief. Sad part is you are expected to trust the advice from a technician that is not trying to solve the problem, they are only trying to get rid of you, which has become their problem. They’re only problem-solving capability in this type of situation is to reboot and reinstall and they’re too lazy to reinstall. The worst part is you are expected to trust their advice, when they are taking no responsibility, and drive an automated 5000 pound killing machine. I’ve had my car alarm go off again three times this week. It was all within a half hour. It was a hot sunny day like before. The first time it went off I turned off sentry mode on my phone. It went off two times after that. There was a truck nearby, idling about 10 feet away. When is going off at making the growling noise I did not see any way to turn it off from the app. Each time I walked out in a panic. It would usually time out, by the time I got to it. I’ve had my car long enough to know that getting in service involved for something like this is a waste of my time. But it is frustrating to know what other software bugs are happening that I cannot witness, it is also scary. The salesman at the golf cart dealership was really impressed of what a high tech guy was.

I used to make bug reports, but now I use the old-fashioned method of opening my window and yelling out a few choice words. The good news is both have the exact same effect. Good luck.


----------



## Madmolecule

They will probably show up at the port of Houston next, always the most profitable place to sell Chinese non union labor knockoffs


----------



## Madmolecule

Speaking of misinformation, the head of a company should not lie after an explosion. Deleting it and admitting to problems does not fix it.


----------



## Madmolecule

Trying to find where to properly post is very difficult. The search seems to bring up the most obscure results. But it’s not a total waste of time, I did find out that Elon has not had sex in months. I’m not sure this is an explanation for his insanity over the last few months (the dreaded semen backup), but it’s also not an excuse for not finishing FSD’s.


----------



## Madmolecule

Vaporware deposits, Government loans, tax credits, carbon credits, a self-made man who is against government involvement, a true American hero. The documentary is a little unfair cause it does not tought his great engineering skills. It’s terrible a man this rich has to sleep on the factory floor because his robotaxi won’t take him home.


----------



## Madmolecule

At about 30 minutes, Sandy makes it clear what he thinks about people like myself that questions Elon’s true engineering capability. I’ve made my opinions based off some of the blatant stupid stuff Elon said that no true engineer would state as a fact. Even as simple as they have windows on the cyber truck you can throw steel balls at.

At 36 minutes Sandy gets pretty creepy in my opinion, talking about the secretary bringing his dinner. I don’t know it sounded more like a wife trying to talk you into coming to bed, but that sleeping on the factory for thing I’ve never quite bought.

I respect Sandy, I’m just afraid he’s became too much a fan boy


----------



## Madmolecule

Not sure if it’s the Tesla bot or a Twitter bot, but I finally spotted this Hydrobot at my buddies and it is actually doing work


----------



## zoomer0056

bobsims0147 said:


> I have a model s 2017 and want to install strip lighting in trunk. The problem is the installed trunk light in on the trunk lid not on the trunk side walls . The question I have is the wiring for the side trunk lights their if you want to install side lights Or do you have to splice into existing wiring ?


Sorry. I can't help. This forum seems to not have much action at all. Try your question at TeslaMotorsClub.


----------



## bwilson4web

SoFlaModel3 said:


> My insurance went down $400 for 6 months which is mind boggling to me.


I carry just liability and ~130 shares of Tesla stock.

Bob Wilson


----------



## SoFlaModel3

bwilson4web said:


> I carry just liability and ~130 shares of Tesla stock.
> 
> Bob Wilson


Not something I would do, but glad it works for you


----------



## bwilson4web

Tesla keeps the outside the same but changes the guts:





That is what I want and like.

Bob Wilson


----------



## SoFlaModel3

bwilson4web said:


> Tesla keeps the outside the same but changes the guts:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That is what I want and like.
> 
> Bob Wilson


And I like cars that are quiet inside. Good thing we are both covered with cars on the market that meet our needs


----------



## bwilson4web

March 26, 2019, we bought our Model 3 Std Rng Plus because I could also buy AutoPilot. It took three weeks before I had confidence in the system and today, use it all the time. In October 2019, I bought Full Self Driving (FSD) for the same reason. Yet I also knew when Elon announced FSD would switch from pixel frames to an Artificial Intelligence architecture, *it would take time* to produce a better product.

This video explains how the new FSD works:





Bob Wilson


----------



## SoFlaModel3

bwilson4web said:


> March 26, 2019, we bought our Model 3 Std Rng Plus because I could also buy AutoPilot. It took three weeks before I had confidence in the system and today, use it all the time. In October 2019, I bought Full Self Driving (FSD) for the same reason. Yet I also knew when Elon announced FSD would switch from pixel frames to an Artificial Intelligence architecture, *it would take time* to produce a better product.
> 
> This video explains how the new FSD works:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Bob Wilson


This is a thread about my new car. I appreciate that you like your car (and I’m happy for you), but I just don’t follow what your intent is here.

Tesla bumping FSD to $15k is laughable at best, though the over promise, under deliver construct at Tesla stopped being funny a long time ago. I, like many FSD purchasers, sold their Teslas well before ever receiving a penny of value from that purchase and yet somehow the price keeps going up.

Trying to keep it positive here and share my opinions having owned the Tesla and now the new car that I shared about and each of your replies seem to just be odd.

A chart about price and efficiency (that doesn’t include the car I bought).

A video about battery tech (that isn’t in your car).

And now a video about FSD. I can assure you I will save the click. I have zero confidence in FSD ever living up to the promise. You read that right “ever” … I’ll go as far as saying my belief is that no Tesla on the road today can achieve level 4/5 self driving and all will require more hardware before they can ever do it. That hardware may or may not be able to be retrofitted leaving everyone that purchased FSD with nothing to show for. Remember in 2016, the Model 3 will make money for you while it’s parked since, you know cars are parked 95% of the time. Well it’s 6 years later and that’s how many years away?


----------



## bwilson4web

When your original thread was relocated, it was a good thing because it looked less like a troll in the Model 3 area. Then I recognized failure to to follow Tesla product improvements.

Bakancing one sided, postings is a dirty job but someone has to do it. Much failure to post positive progress in the Model 3 line.

Bob Wilson


----------



## francoisp

SoFlaModel3 said:


> I have zero confidence in FSD ever living up to the promise. You read that right “ever” … I’ll go as far as saying my belief is that no Tesla on the road today can achieve level 4/5 self driving and all will require more hardware before they can ever do it.


Can you humour me and list the missing hardware that you think would make the car capable of achieving level 4 and 5?

Personally I don't think it's a hardware issue: it's a software issue, a tough one to crack for sure.


----------



## shareef777

francoisp said:


> Can you humour me and list the missing hardware that you think would make the car capable of achieving level 4 and 5?
> 
> Personally I don't think it's a hardware issue: it's a software issue, a tough one to crack for sure.


I'd guess the FSD computer itself to start. Then there's the cameras that get too easily blinded by the sun. I know the cameras are supposed to have better vision then us, but far too often I've seen the "blinded" message when I can still see fine. Maybe it's as simple as adding visors to the camera like we have inside the car. Don't know and unlike some, I'm not taking $$$ from people to find out


----------



## francoisp

shareef777 said:


> I'd guess the FSD computer itself to start. Then there's the cameras that get too easily blinded by the sun. I know the cameras are supposed to have better vision then us, but far too often I've seen the "blinded" message when I can still see fine. Maybe it's as simple as adding visors to the camera like we have inside the car. Don't know and unlike some, I'm not taking $$$ from people to find out


The cameras do get blinded at times and granted that can be an issue for keeping FSD fully functional at all times. But would that mean that the software can't be achieving level 4 or 5? I don't think so. It depends how gracefully FSD will handle those situations. Hey, I can have a real hard time driving when the sun is blinding me, forcing me to slowdown, but that doesn't make me a lesser driver.

As far as the computer is concerned, who really knows if the processors are underpowered or not. How much burden do or will the neural network chips take away from the main CPU/GPU? Who knows beside Tesla. If they are underpowered, that's something Tesla will have to admit, hopefully with a corrective action. From where I stand it's too early to tell.

At this juncture, based on the YouTube videos I watch, FSD shortcomings seem more of an algorithmic nature.


----------



## Madmolecule

I’m not sure the computers can handle even catquest. The radar has been tossed due to it being garbage. Pure vision is pure fantasy. The hardware/sensor complement is not capable and neither are the programmers or dojo. Unless you’re are blind, it is clearly not possible or we could see it. Dreams are not products.

I also don’t believe we will see a bot, next month anything close to the specifications, Or a cybertruck anything close to the announcement

“Being *5-foot-8 (172 cm) tall and weighing 125 pounds (56.7 kg)*, this humanoid robot seems to be a perfect fit for working in an environment surrounded by humans. It can also dead-lift around 68 kg and carry approx. 20 kg of weight. However, for now, it is planned to travel only 8 km per hour”

I think this is just a fantasy for Elon‘s next girlfriend and not a developed product.


----------



## shareef777

francoisp said:


> At this juncture, based on the YouTube videos I watch, FSD shortcomings seem more of an algorithmic nature.


Soooo, they "only" need to create a sentient AI 🤷‍♂️


----------



## francoisp

shareef777 said:


> Soooo, they "only" need to create a sentient AI 🤷‍♂️


I understand that you're sarcastic but remember that intelligence is not equal to sentience. AlphaGo and AlphaFold are remarkable, very smart AIs but their creator (Google Deepmind) would not call them sentient. Hopefully the Tesla Bots won't be out to harm you despite all the negatives comments you've made 😜. That's why I stay positive: you never know when the Tesla Bots will start reading these posts 🤣.


----------



## shareef777

francoisp said:


> I understand that you're sarcastic but remember that intelligence is not equal to sentience. AlphaGo and AlphaFold are remarkable, very smart AIs but their creator (Google Deepmind) would not call them sentient. Hopefully the Tesla Bots won't be out to harm you despite all the negatives comments you've made 😜. That's why I stay positive: you never know when the Tesla Bots will start reading these posts 🤣.


I only say sentient as the vastness of the open road seems far too complex to be able to code as a simple algorithm.


----------



## SoFlaModel3

bwilson4web said:


> When your original thread was relocated, it was a good thing because it looked less like a troll in the Model 3 area. Then I recognized failure to to follow Tesla product improvements.
> 
> Bakancing one sided, postings is a dirty job but someone has to do it. Much failure to post positive progress in the Model 3 line.
> 
> Bob Wilson


I’d say I’m well equipped to talk about Model 3 progress having gone from low VIN 2018 to 2021 to 2022. The progress is backwards though. Build quality worse, service worse, efficiency is worse (LR RWD was the beast for efficiency), and even self-driving tech went backward. So…



francoisp said:


> Can you humour me and list the missing hardware that you think would make the car capable of achieving level 4 and 5?
> 
> Personally I don't think it's a hardware issue: it's a software issue, a tough one to crack for sure.


I think they need a better vision closer to the front of the car (maybe bumper mounted camera/cameras).

In my experience the pillar cameras are blinded way too easily, so some solve is needed there.

Similarly the rear camera struggles a lot in rain.

I also can’t help but think they need more than “vision”.

Then I suppose you get to the software of knowing what to do with so many fringe cases.

I equate FSD with Robotaxi. You can either nap in the car or you can’t. If you can’t, you really don’t need more than basic AP.


----------



## SoFlaModel3

bwilson4web said:


> When your original thread was relocated, it was a good thing because it looked less like a troll in the Model 3 area. Then I recognized failure to to follow Tesla product improvements.
> 
> Bakancing one sided, postings is a dirty job but someone has to do it. Much failure to post positive progress in the Model 3 line.
> 
> Bob Wilson


“Progress”


----------



## bwilson4web

Full Self Driving architecture:





When Elon announced they were restarting the self-driving effort based on AI, I knew there would a significant delay, This is not a trivial nor insurmountable problem. 

Bob Wilson


----------



## bwilson4web

Roll back to #48 in this thread which shows the efficiency of both cars and known models. Vehicle efficiency is a mandatory requirement along with driver automation system. But I respect that other buyers may have different mandatory requirements.

There are optional requirements that can have a value or weight applied. It is common to find users define similar requirements in either mandatory or optional requirements. For example, if I made my living tuning pianos, interior quiet might move to mandatory with a well defined threshold that must be met. It is their gold to spend to make their lives happier.

Bob Wilson


----------



## SoFlaModel3

bwilson4web said:


> Roll back to #48 in this thread which shows the efficiency of both cars and known models. Vehicle efficiency is a mandatory requirement along with driver automation system. But I respect that other buyers may have different mandatory requirements.
> 
> There are optional requirements that can have a value or weight applied. It is common to find users define similar requirements in either mandatory or optional requirements. For example, if I made my living tuning pianos, interior quiet might move to mandatory with a well defined threshold that must be met. It is their gold to spend to make their lives happier.
> 
> Bob Wilson


Sorry but no and no.

Each consumer defines their own mandatory and optional requirements. That’s why so many different cars with so many different capabilities exist. You don’t get to tell others what their mandatory and optional requirements are. In fact if efficiency was a mandatory requirement, why are people still buying 20 MPG gas cars? Answer - efficiency isn’t their mandatory requirement.

Back to your chart … it shows Q4 e-tron Sportback, e-tron S, and e-tron S Sportback … none of which are the car I have.

It doesn’t matter though. I’m not here to rag on Tesla (my wife still drives one for now anyway). My post here was to show there are viable EVs on the market today and that’s a good thing for anyone that follows the Tesla mission.

My experience with Tesla started great and soured. You do not have to look very far to find many many people with similar stories to me. If Tesla wants to compete long-term at the price point they sell cars something will have to change or people will leave (as I did).

Back to your mandatory requirements, for me “mandatory is”

Quiet inside
Comfortable
Covers my 99% use case (daily range)
Good service
No gas


My new car checks all of those boxes. MyTesla checked 2.

Someone else might have different requirements and thus different cars check those boxes different. Again though, you don’t get to tell me what’s a requirement and what’s optional. Only I decide that


----------



## Madmolecule

I did not get to restart my purchase of FSD. Once my check cleared my only option is to wait for the promised product to be delivered, wait for regulatory approval which hasn’t even been attempted, wait for the insurance companies to mitigate the risk of who is actually driving and responsible for the vehicle, I’m sure it will be coming over the air in a update any day now. I will have a big button that will fix everything. Until then I will wait and continue to be the fool.

They’ve already tried the strategy of announcing other shiny objects, like the not and the cyberduck, Which won’t be out for years, Hoping people would forget about the semi the roadster and FSD.

You can always spot the good engineers when they upgrade the hardware, have to redo the software, then realize that’s not gonna work either, Time to dance. They could probably use an automation or systems engineer.

Tesla is selling depreciating assets not investments. if you think it’s an investment I’m sorry that was a blatant lie (If you were able to turn a nickel in profit from your vehicle it is not like Elon stated it would be, so I don’t want to hear it)

Elon Musk says Tesla owners could make up to $30,000 a year turning their cars into 'robotaxis'

The two minute mark he starts talking about deleting parts is the way to cut costs and make his product better. I guess radar was the first to go. At the 2:30 second mark he lies like a carnival huckster, even says for sure!


----------



## shareef777

bwilson4web said:


> Full Self Driving architecture:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> When Elon announced they were restarting the self-driving effort based on AI, I knew there would a significant delay, This is not a trivial nor insurmountable problem.
> 
> Bob Wilson


When did he announce that and how long BEFORE that has he been stealing people's money for FSD?

I didn't watch the video, nor will I watch any of those videos as they're just marketing PR.


----------



## bwilson4web

shareef777 said:


> I didn't watch the video, nor will I watch any of those videos as they're just marketing PR.


Actually that video on the last frames is a recruitment video for AI software people. I was already sold on the better architecture when Elon made the announcement. For me, confirmation of how much better the AI based FSD is and will be as development and enhancements won't stop.

Bob Wilson


----------



## SoFlaModel3

bwilson4web said:


> Actually that video on the last frames is a recruitment video for AI software people. I was already sold on the better architecture when Elon made the announcement. For me, confirmation of how much better the AI based FSD is and will be as development and enhancements won't stop.
> 
> Bob Wilson


Gotta wake up … this is a kickstarter for potential vaporware. There is some crazy level of snake oil salesman here.

He’s taking thousands upon thousands of dollars from customers, promising something he can’t deliver on and you’re happy they’re recruiting?


----------



## bwilson4web

SoFlaModel3 said:


> . . . you’re happy they’re recruiting?


No problem. I appreciate the difficulty of the task and the clever approaches Tesla is taking to breaking down and resolve the problems. Finding people who can create software for this type of problem is not trivial. So a paper about it is quite clever.

Bob Wilson


----------



## FRC

I'm sure Elon's happy to know than some are continuing to drink his Kool-Aid.


----------



## francoisp

I got caught in the excitement in 2018 when I bought my M3 with FSD which I later replaced with a MY and lost my "investment" in that process. I'm pretty pissed off about this. Obviously I didn't fall for it the second time. I agree that selling FSD shouldn't be permitted but this is like a kickstarter project as someone wrote, an expensive one for sure, and these are allowed and many of them fails to deliver anything close to what was promised. Several posters have decided that FSD has failed to deliver on its promise so far and because the past is an indication of the future it can never succeed. There's nothing I can say that will change their views. I trust that Tesla wants this, needs this to succeed. One day FSD will achieve 99% error free driving and that won't be enough. Then it will achieve 99.9% and that won't still be enough. I don't think there's any number other than 100%, a theoretically impossible number to achieve, that will make them say "yes it works". One day FSD will be cracked and all will be forgotten but maybe not forgiven.


----------



## DocScott

francoisp said:


> I got caught in the excitement in 2018 when I bought my M3 with FSD which I later replaced with a MY and lost my "investment" in that process. I'm pretty pissed off about this. Obviously I didn't fall for it the second time. I agree that selling FSD shouldn't be permitted but this is like a kickstarter project as someone wrote, an expensive one for sure, and these are allowed and many of them fails to deliver anything close to what was promised. Several posters have decided that FSD has failed to deliver on its promise so far and because the past is an indication of the future it can never succeed. There's nothing I can say that will change their views. I trust that Tesla wants this, needs this to succeed. One day FSD will achieve 99% error free driving and that won't be enough. Then it will achieve 99.9% and that won't still be enough. I don't think there's any number other than 100%, a theoretically impossible number to achieve, that will make them say "yes it works". One day FSD will be cracked and all will be forgotten but maybe not forgiven.


I do believe autonomous driving will arrive. L4 driving in _very_ limited situations is here, and I expect that to expand to a reasonably broad set of situations within a few years.

But I don't think it will be Tesla leading the way.

In fact, it would be a very Musk-like move to, five years from now, say "we could keep working on developing our own system, and it would be better, but that takes a lot of effort from other more important things so we're just going to license the system that [company X] has developed and include it as an option on future Tesla vehicles. For those who have purchased FSD, you will be moved to the front of the line if you order one of our new vehicles."

In other words, he'll try to spin losing the autonomous driving race as being a sign of how nimble Tesla is, and he'll throw a meaningless sop to those who believed in FSD.

In some sense, it would be the flip side of opening up the Supercharger network to other EVs. Tesla really did beat everyone else to having a robust, easy-to-use charging network--impressive! But I really doubt they're going to be first to have a reliable, useful, broadly applicable autonomous driving system.


----------



## shareef777

francoisp said:


> I got caught in the excitement in 2018 when I bought my M3 with FSD which I later replaced with a MY and lost my "investment" in that process. I'm pretty pissed off about this. Obviously I didn't fall for it the second time. I agree that selling FSD shouldn't be permitted but this is like a kickstarter project as someone wrote, an expensive one for sure, and these are allowed and many of them fails to deliver anything close to what was promised. Several posters have decided that FSD has failed to deliver on its promise so far and because the past is an indication of the future it can never succeed. There's nothing I can say that will change their views. I trust that Tesla wants this, needs this to succeed. One day FSD will achieve 99% error free driving and that won't be enough. Then it will achieve 99.9% and that won't still be enough. I don't think there's any number other than 100%, a theoretically impossible number to achieve, that will make them say "yes it works". One day FSD will be cracked and all will be forgotten but maybe not forgiven.


We weren’t told “one day” we were told “by the end of the year.” And each year they FAIL to meet their own timeline.


----------



## SoFlaModel3

bwilson4web said:


> No problem. I appreciate the difficulty of the task and the clever approaches Tesla is taking to breaking down and resolve the problems. Finding people who can create software for this type of problem is not trivial. So a paper about it is quite clever.
> 
> Bob Wilson


No doubt about it that it’s difficult. If it wasn’t we would already have it. This isn’t about appreciating the complexity.

This is about a man/company that pressures customers to pay and pay now otherwise the price goes up because it’s “coming soon” and that soon was very soon. Only it’s 5-6 years later and now there isn’t even a timeline.

I can’t imagine buying any other depreciating product with an expensive add-on that comes with 0 promise of delivery date and 0 refund should you be done with said product before it was delivered. I felt like a sucker for buying FSD and drinking the koolaid for so long.

Literally never again.


----------



## shareef777

SoFlaModel3 said:


> No doubt about it that it’s difficult. If it wasn’t we would already have it. This isn’t about appreciating the complexity.
> 
> This is about a man/company that pressures customers to pay and pay now otherwise the price goes up because it’s “coming soon” and that soon was very soon. Only it’s 5-6 years later and now there isn’t even a timeline.
> 
> I can’t imagine buying any other depreciating product with an expensive add-on that comes with 0 promise of delivery date and 0 refund should you be done with said product before it was delivered. I felt like a sucker for buying FSD and drinking the koolaid for so long.
> 
> Literally never again.


Yep, and I take solace in knowing I’ve kept a few people from buying a Tesla. Petty, yes, but comforting for me as well, so…..


----------



## francoisp

shareef777 said:


> Yep, and I take solace in knowing I’ve kept a few people from buying a Tesla. Petty, yes, but comforting for me as well, so…..


I'm not sure who you're hurting the most in this situation: the buyer who could have gotten one of the best ev today (without fsd of course) or Tesla with tens of thousands cars on its order book.


----------



## shareef777

francoisp said:


> I'm not sure who you're hurting the most in this situation: the buyer who could have gotten one of the best ev today (without fsd of course) or Tesla with tens of thousands cars on its order book.


The buyers are fine. Let’s not pretend like having a Tesla is anything more than a luxury.


----------



## Madmolecule

The buyers are much better off than by just purchasing a Tesla based on watching a “game changer” or “ this just happened” Video from a Tesla shill, or actually believing Elons infomercials, at whatever “day event”. Future buyers should at least be aware of how to set their expectations on the vehicle, the purchasing, the proprietary service, the proprietary DC charging And knowing their purchasing a vehicle that seems and at least my opinion to care very little about employees, the environment, the customers or anything but ego and profit. The buyer needs to know that they will be purchasing a car from a company that likely will not be run by Elon in the future. The buyer needs to be aware that they are purchasing a car from a company with a leader that has picked a fight with virtually everyone including gates, cook, twitter, google, all German car manufacturers and the current administration. You’ll be purchasing a car for my company with a leader who has already let us know who he will be voting for. And I’m not trying to be political, but it appears tesla leaders want you to know where they are politically

The model three design in my opinion has been very stagnant, and so many design improvements could have be implemented off over the years. i’ve given up on decent infotainment or navigation but you would think that at least be able to improve road noise significantly and fix the control arm assembly suspension issues. Tesla should be aware that the car is heavy by now and be able to build a suspension for it. Navigate to 20,000 miles out of the cybertrucks suspension?

Most importantly potential buyers should be very aware that over the air updates are about as beneficial as updating your Adobe acrobat. I’m tired of waiting on the curb for Elon to pick me up. Oh my FSD is not coming, regardless of what monitoring I allow or money I send. But I’m sure his AI cyber symposium infomercial next month will show us all the information are looking for.


----------



## bwilson4web

I can't turn back time. Had the $6,000 spent on FSD in October 2019 been put in TSLA stock, it would have significantly grown by a factor of ~15, ~$60 to ~$900 per share. But I was buying the continuation of AutoPilot which after three weeks of testing and learning, became my standard operating software. It paid for itself the second month when it safely drove through a transient medical event.

No one can reverse those who lost their Full Self Driving (FSD) purchase. But having maintained several Operating Systems, IBM MVS, VAX VMS, Linux, I understand why it has taken so long. I also understand how the current FSD architecture works and why it is a superior solution when delivered.

Bob Wilson


----------



## SoFlaModel3

bwilson4web said:


> I can't turn back time. Had the $6,000 spent on FSD in October 2019 been put in TSLA stock, it would have significantly grown by a factor of ~15, ~$60 to ~$900 per share. But I was buying the continuation of AutoPilot which after three weeks of testing and learning, became my standard operating software. It paid for itself the second month when it safely drove through a transient medical event.
> 
> No one can reverse those who lost their Full Self Driving (FSD) purchase. But having maintained several Operating Systems, IBM MVS, VAX VMS, Linux, I understand why it has taken so long. I also understand how the current FSD architecture works and why it is a superior solution when delivered.
> 
> Bob Wilson


I’m tapping out. You can carry on with the Koolaid IV. I don’t appreciate being lied to or bullied into a purchase using FOMO tactics.

Tell it to me straight.

“This is really hard. Your $5k, $7k, $10k, $12k, or $15k purchase may not yield any fruit ever or at least in the lifetime of your experience with the vehicle and it’s not transferable nor is it valued at trade in or resale”

Instead the messaging is “game changer“ “mind blowing” “coming soon” “buy now or else”

That’s why I grew tired.

I get that it’s complicated, but they were mindblowingly close 3 rewrites ago and 3 hardware configurations ago. I just can’t support or believe anyone that lies or baits their customers into purchase.

I have said this before but frankly I’m shocked that there hasn’t already been a massive class action lawsuit over this debacle.


----------



## bwilson4web

The good news is you can avoid future Tesla and Musk products. There might even be a way to avoid Tesla and Musk enthusiasts . . . so we can all be happier.

I have my own list of villains but thanks to our moderators, I don't need to vent about them here. But if you want to get a sympathetic audience, start with SeekingAlpha.









Bob Wilson


----------



## Madmolecule

Don’t worry I don’t think I’ll be converting my $100 cybertruck deposit to a delivery anytime soon. Somehow the happiness of Tesla enthusiast never entered the algorithm. But if I bring Joy to your day count that is just a bonus.

But I agree you can find happiness in Technology and the joy of technology. I just got me some new rechargeable light up sneakers. I still have to walk for myself, but they do blink when I get near cones


----------



## SoFlaModel3

bwilson4web said:


> The good news is you can avoid future Tesla and Musk products. There might even be a way to avoid Tesla and Musk enthusiasts . . . so we can all be happier.
> 
> I have my own list of villains but thanks to our moderators, I don't need to vent about them here. But if you want to get a sympathetic audience, start with SeekingAlpha.
> View attachment 44756
> 
> 
> Bob Wilson


Moderator does not equal blind sheep. You may notice it still says Moderator next to my name.

I never cared for and still don’t care for Seeking Alpha. That was FUD for ulterior motives.

I speak the truth about my experiences good and bad. Always have and always will.

In the future the only Tesla product I will consume is electricity when they open the Supercharger network to other cars.


----------



## shareef777

SoFlaModel3 said:


> Moderator does not equal blind sheep. You may notice it still says Moderator next to my name.
> 
> I never cared for and still don’t care for Seeking Alpha. That was FUD for ulterior motives.
> 
> I speak the truth about my experiences good and bad. Always have and always will.
> 
> In the future the only Tesla product I will consume is electricity when they open the Supercharger network to other cars.


Exactly why this forum is one of the best out there. Users aren’t expected to maintain a cultist mindset. I’ve been on Apple forums (another company with “strong” followers) wherein you speak negatively of the product/company and you get banned.


----------



## SalisburySam

FRC said:


> I'm sure Elon's happy to know than some are continuing to drink gulp his Kool-Aid.


FTFY.


----------



## Mike

shareef777 said:


> The buyers are fine. Let’s not pretend like having a Tesla is anything more than a luxury.


Sorry, but nope.

I have a routine commute of 550 km, one way.

My wife's Kona EV cannot do it because of the inability to have a supercharger network.


----------



## francoisp

Mike said:


> My wife's Kona EV cannot do it because of the inability to have a supercharger network.


When I travel to Canada, Québec to be more precise, there are many Circuit Électrique chargers, several in my wife's hometown of Victoriaville, a mix of 50kw and 100kw. The closest supercharger is 30 km away. I would expect that Ontario would have even more CCS chargers. Isn't that the case?


----------



## Klaus-rf

Speaking of Kook-Aid, I met the late Rev. Jim Jones in a seminar he was presenting about his "organization" in the LA Convention center in the mid-70's. I did not join his org, btw,.

( And now we return to our regularly scheduled programming. )


----------



## Madmolecule

Mike said:


> Sorry, but nope.
> 
> I have a routine commute of 550 km, one way.
> 
> My wife's Kona EV cannot do it because of the inability to have a supercharger network.


Yes the Kona won’t cut it, the only thing that makes sense is to use your tesla semi, with an 80,000 pound load, 60,000 pounds of that is made up of truck and battery. Still waiting to see the 3 MW charger.

I overheard that you get more range if you switch to percentage instead of miles


----------



## shareef777

Mike said:


> Sorry, but nope.
> 
> I have a routine commute of 550 km, one way.
> 
> My wife's Kona EV cannot do it because of the inability to have a supercharger network.


Any yet I've been making an 800mi trip to NC for a decade+ without any issues 🤷‍♂️.

Yes, my implication is that EVs are luxuries!


----------



## Mike

francoisp said:


> When I travel to Canada, Québec to be more precise, there are many Circuit Électrique chargers, several in my wife's hometown of Victoriaville, a mix of 50kw and 100kw. The closest supercharger is 30 km away. I would expect that Ontario would have even more CCS chargers. Isn't that the case?


Truthfully, I have no idea.

I have never ventured off the Tesla supercharger reservation for any long distance trip (any trip grater than 400 km one way in the winter) because there has never been a need.

With 51 months of Tesla ownership under my belt, long distance trip planning in my Tesla is easy and doesn’t require a second thought.

I cover any distance (that requires at least one supercharger stop) at an average speed (block to block) of 100 kph.

For example, an 850 km trip will take 8.5 hours from departure to arrival; winter or summer.


----------



## Mike

shareef777 said:


> Any yet I've been making an 800mi trip to NC for a decade+ without any issues 🤷‍♂️.
> 
> Yes, my implication is that EVs are luxuries!


Your issues are externalized.


----------



## francoisp

Mike said:


> Truthfully, I have no idea.
> 
> I have never ventured off the Tesla supercharger reservation for any long distance trip (any trip grater than 400 km one way in the winter) because there has never been a need.
> 
> With 51 months of Tesla ownership under my belt, long distance trip planning in my Tesla is easy and doesn’t require a second thought.
> 
> I cover any distance (that requires at least one supercharger stop) at an average speed (block to block) of 100 kph.
> 
> For example, an 850 km trip will take 8.5 hours from departure to arrival; winter or summer.


I've done many long distance trips with the Tesla and I agree that the supercharger network will usually get me where I need to go. A few years ago I wanted to travel around the Maritimes from New England but I couldn't find a way to go around Cape Breton so I ended up driving my ICE car. My main issue has been to be able to recharge the car in a reasonable amount of time at my destination. It's no longer an issue thanks to my Tesla CCS adapter. Now I can truly go anywhere I fancy (well almost) although I mostly use the supercharger network due to its reliability, power output and ease of use.


----------



## FRC

[/QUOTE]


Madmolecule said:


> Yes the Kona won’t cut it, the only thing that makes sense is to use your tesla semi, with an 80,000 pound load, 60,000 pounds of that is made up of truck and battery. Still waiting to see the 3 MW charger.
> 
> I overheard that you get more range if you switch to percentage instead of miles


Sometimes I have to wonder...Does your nonsense ever get old to you?


----------



## shareef777

Mike said:


> Your issues are externalized.


They’re not issues, just facts.


----------



## DocScott

FRC said:


> Sometimes I have to wonder...Does your nonsense ever get old to you?


@Madmolecule still gets his share of positive engagement with his posts (likes, ha-has, etc.). Sometimes he swings and misses, sometimes he's funny, sometimes he makes a good point. I don't expect him to change any more than I expect any of the rest of us to.


----------



## DocScott

shareef777 said:


> Yes, my implication is that EVs are luxuries!


For many people, cars are luxuries.


----------



## Madmolecule

Dude!


----------



## DocScott

Madmolecule said:


> Dude!


I'm not with you on this one, @Madmolecule. It was very likely a repositioning flight of some kind that Musk was not on.


----------



## FRC

More whine produced in California than anywhere else in the world.


----------



## Madmolecule

But the Texas grapes are sour

I was starting to get bored with my BS, but my beta EV FSD shoes have arrived. Fully self walking. Proven to reduce trips, head ons and endos in FSW mode. No safety test required. Be careful using blue flashing mode as you don’t won’t people to think you are trying to pull them over. PWS built in. Vegan, no animals hurt, although some seem jealous 

i do like the off topic thread, I probably still get complaints here that I am off topic. I do probably hold the record on the forum for people’s neg reply’s to my post being liked, especially by the mods, the statistics are pretty enlightening.

The next few months are going to be very exciting, AI day PowerPoint presentation, brain cycles on Twitter, the semi semi release, roadster excuse 4.0, Cybertruck redefinition, solar what and best of we will learn if you think real hard you hair will even grow back.


----------



## Madmolecule

DocScott said:


> I'm not with you on this one, @Madmolecule. It was very likely a repositioning flight of some kind that Musk was not on.


not sure that makes any sense to me. This is not a commercial flight, the only repositioning I see are the excuses, when there is no excuse in my opinion. Was this just practice to show how much sense it makes to use SpaceX rockets for commuting, yes he said that. The smartest guy in the room should fly private, he just shouldn’t be ignorant.


----------



## Madmolecule

Artemis looks pretty badazz. shoot for the moon.


----------



## SalisburySam

Madmolecule said:


> …the semi semi release, roadster excuse 4.0, Cybertruck redefinition, solar what…


I wish I could disagree but I think you’re right. There could also be the V12 software update that shows ONLY the car overhead, no controls nor options whatsoever accepting driver input for exactly nothing, 17 new games, and voice control to change radio stations to one of either NPR or Fox News, maybe an optional extra cost country music station. Abstract Ocean will naturally offer an expanded line of 48 S3XY buttons to overcome this.


----------



## Klaus-rf

Put the crack pipe down and sleep for a day or two. Drink lots of water.


----------



## RMKYHN

Klaus-rf said:


> Put the crack pipe down and sleep for a day or two. Drink lots of water.


_Jawohl_, _mein Führer _


----------



## Madmolecule

FSD 10.0 code name “Galadriel“ will be out any day, keep on the look out for a download button. It is not for cowards or jerks. 10,000 early adopters will be driven to AI day blindfolded and the bots will be very handy and even serve manly drinks, no little umbrellas here. By the way Eon, horses actually have FSD, they will not hit traffic cones while you ride on them. The downside is horses do not have premium connectivity, passenger lumbar support or catquest, however their advanced summon is pretty on point


----------



## Madmolecule

the topic was FSD and Elon‘s tweet, could it be more on topic


----------



## Madmolecule

I’m sure they were just busy detailing and filling up the tank. But at least future customers will have a service guy greet them, which will be about as helpful as the Walmart greeter. People needing service, will have the app bot to help them and take care of all their needs, or at least it will let them know it will be taken care of on one of the upcoming over there amazing updates.


----------



## Madmolecule

In fact you should never trade it in or sell it. You should keep your old car, for when you’re waiting weeks or months for a service call. The rate Tesla is going, I also see the day when your car will be disabled waiting on a software update. I went through this craziness 4 years ago, I have an accepted a new car with a dent after waiting and being delayed. As with most things they have seem to make no progress on this and I think it will get worse with the quantity of vehicles and the multiple versions to support issues.


----------



## Madmolecule

From everything I have seen from the YouTube shills, this is a mature release, with billions of miles logged to Dojo the battle of the 9s has been won. Elon I‘m sure will release it to all paying customers. I can’t wait to press the hyper robotaxi button and next month I am sure I will get a giga reduction in my Insurance rates for driving the safest car in the world.

I am sure at AI day Elon will be announcing the end of beta’s and display the finished product. After four years of thinking I have been scammed by a kickstarter, skirt chaser, I have prepared my formal retractions and apology for ever doubting such a genius.

everything will happen in 2023, believe me.

Anyone that has the Beta or knowledge of Tesla I have just a couple questions after purchasing FSD over four years ago.


1. What is FSD: please define feature set that will be delivered with the product I purchased
2. Who is Liable under FSD driving, owner or manufacture? Not sure how the owner can be since we did not produce the code.
3. When will my Kickstarter order be fulfilled and when will my product ship?

worthy of being callEd version 69?, get it, haha (he’s referring to the sexual position) advanced humor, sorry if it is over your head, keep it 420


----------



## Mr. Spacely

Madmolecule said:


> I would prefer range regulation instead of emission regulation


Just what we need-- more regulations...


----------



## Klaus-rf

Mr. Spacely said:


> Just what we need-- more regulations...


 I suspect you meant sarcasm. But regulations are the ONLY thing keeping most compnaies from lying about everything. After all, by definition the USA IS a country of laws.

And never forget the EPA-mandated OBD2 was the absolute best tuning tool the automotive market has ever seen. CANbus was a side effect of OBD2. Great stuff.


----------



## FRC

Klaus-rf said:


> But regulations are the ONLY thing keeping most compnaies from lying


I get your point; however good old economics (supply and demand) have some impact on keeping companies in line.


----------



## Klaus-rf

FRC said:


> I get your point; however good old economics (supply and demand) have some impact on keeping companies in line.


Total Myth.


----------



## FRC

Statistics and economics; two areas you didn't study.


----------



## Madmolecule

FRC said:


> I get your point; however good old economics (supply and demand) have some impact on keeping companies in line.


except for controlled supplies like oil, diamonds, Batteries and DC charging

the germans lied about diesel for decades. I do get a kick out of the Germans that the CEO, unlike American compan where the CEO would just say he was not aware of it and there would be no official records that he new, a german CEO would rather admit he lied about it than admit he did not know what the people under him were doing

If left up to supply and demand economics, without regulation we would not have seatbelts, airbag, door safety beams.

this is even more critical with environmental things. Companies rarely make the choice of environment over profit. For-profit companies must be regulated. It is sad when the only ingenuity you see with a lot of companies get around regulations. Elon and Tesla are not exempt from this. They used every advantage they could win starting up, now they want to eliminate those for everybody else.

they need to stop the lies and start letting people know what’s going on.

they have the data, they know the answers, they’re not sharing it with us, a lot of your people are fine with that, I am not

The demand for my opinion is the same as for catquest, but that doesn’t stop me or Elon from supplying it 

As soon as other EV manufactures start making unreal claims on range, battery degradation, charging rates and recyclability of their product, all the Tesla shills including Elon will start crying for more regulations.


----------



## Madmolecule

Ideas for expanding your shed


----------



## Klaus-rf

^
A $25.9Million Off-Grid estate that's on-grid. OK.


----------



## Mike

OT: once again, I am no longer getting emails informing me that a thread I watch has had activity.


----------



## iChris93

Mike said:


> OT: once again, I am no longer getting emails informing me that a thread I watch has had activity.


Ha. The other day I randomly got an email about a thread update and I’ve NEVER signed up for this. @Adminstrator


----------



## FRC

iChris93 said:


> Ha. The other day I randomly got an email about a thread update and I’ve NEVER signed up for this. @Adminstrator


So did I. One time only last week.


----------



## Bigriver

shareef777 said:


> Comcast. The product isn’t the issue, the company is. Their Customer service has left me so bitter that I’d leave for even a product that’s “close” to what they offer.


I also felt that way about Comcast, in a relationship that soured slowly and steadily over 25 years. They were our only Internet option, so nothing I could do. Then went to Verizon Wireless, trying their 5G home service when that option opened up. What an awful experience. Technology was flaky, customer service was useless, billing was a disaster (even turning me over to a bill collector for their mistake). I can’t believe Verizon Wireless is a major company; they behaved more like a start up that won’t last.

I went running back to Comcast who accepted us with welcome arms and a notable price cut to reestablish our previous service. Recently had a brief internet outage with them that they notified us, gave us time estimate for restoration, AND asked afterwards if all was well. Smooth sailing. We are in the honeymoon phase of our second marriage. 😬


----------



## shareef777

Bigriver said:


> I also felt that way about Comcast, in a relationship that soured slowly and steadily over 25 years. They were our only Internet option, so nothing I could do. Then went to Verizon Wireless, trying their 5G home service when that option opened up. What an awful experience. Technology was flaky, customer service was useless, billing was a disaster (even turning me over to a bill collector for their mistake). I can’t believe Verizon Wireless is a major company; they behaved more like a start up that won’t last.
> 
> I went running back to Comcast who accepted us with welcome arms and a notable price cut to reestablish our previous service. Recently had a brief internet outage with them that they notified us, gave us time estimate for restoration, AND asked afterwards if all was well. Smooth sailing. We are in the honeymoon phase of our second marriage. 😬


Yep, all is well while things work, but the second that hiccup pops up, they're a deplorable mess. I too am stuck with Comcast (the only other alternative is ATT DSL at 5 WHOLE Mbps). I saw Verizon/Tmobile/Starlink options, but a wireless connection won't compare to a wired one. Waiting on ATT Fiber or FIOS to become available.


----------



## Madmolecule

Is there anyway the moderators could maybe, say, moderate/filter the RSS feed? Or is what we are seeing the filter hot must read feeds. Many of them should be relegated to the off-topic thread like most of my posts.


----------



## Madmolecule

The customer service still sucks (right with cable companies)
only thing worse is tesla’s communication
error messages give almost no information
#1 annoying thing about tesla is Comrade Musk. Mother Russia thanks you for your support.


----------



## Madmolecule

It’s clear the vision only AI is neither. The computer has difficulty knowing what to tag since we are living in a simulation. Have you ever seen your neighbors bringing in the groceries?


----------



## SoFlaModel3

You can literally get this car brand new from Tesla for $64,490 with delivery in October - November 2022. I think you’ve missed the boat on ridiculous used car values as they have come down considerably over the past few months.

As a for instance back in July, Audi gave me $58k for my 2022 Model 3 Long Range with 11k miles and 3 months later they’re still stuck with the car on the lot and have reduced the ask down to $56,699 which is obviously still way too high.


----------



## .49349

SoFlaModel3 said:


> You can literally get this car brand new from Tesla for $64,490 with delivery in October - November 2022. I think you’ve missed the boat on ridiculous used car values as they have come down considerably over the past few months.
> 
> As a for instance back in July, Audi gave me $58k for my 2022 Model 3 Long Range with 11k miles and 3 months later they’re still stuck with the car on the lot and have reduced the ask down to $56,699 which is obviously still way too high.


Thank you for your feedback. What price would you suggest based off the current market?


----------



## Madmolecule

Navigation sucks because it cannot find many addresses. infotainment with no weather, pothole or cop info. It is the worst navigation system I’ve ever used in the past 15 years. Yes my ears are shot from listening to good music, but I do have an audio analyzer I built to fix my shortcomings. I’m sure the stereo sounds good listen to Joe Rogan‘s podcast. It is just weak for music. I don’t know about your tesla, but my farts don’t sound as fresh as they used to. Maybe they’re old farts, or just need a software update. But as far as infotainment I think you guys are just jealous because I have the highest cat quest score. McIntosh might have sold out like Elon,but I have yet to see them make weak products in 50 yrs.


----------



## SalisburySam

I want to see a dash-mounted turntable in my audio upgrade for all that vinyl, plus a rack for the vinyl itself. And the vehicle suspension improved to the point the needle doesn’t skip. To keep things at the audiophile level, I want a Vertere RG-1 turntable, obviously with other components suitably upgraded to match. THEN we can talk about mobile audio performance equivalency to home.


----------



## SalisburySam

SimonMatthews said:


> I think it also needs a special wooden knob.


Couldn’t agree more, and thanks for sharing. I’ll get one of these when my RG-1 arrives. Say, I wonder if I should get a 2nd wooden knob to mount in the Model 3 somewhere. I can pretend to have actual control over something, like maybe the wipers for example.


----------



## Madmolecule

Just an ego driven minefield laid by a fake engineer kickstarter huckster. When is the right time to buy tesla stock? The day after Elon leaves and they become an EV car company without the BS.
Best time to invest in twitter? Never, the twit payed way to much and has no idea what he is doing. Also I am sure all the idiots Elon fired at twitter, who actually new how to run social media and had the advertising relationships, will never compete in social media.
after every hostile takeover, I’ve seen, all the people that knew what they were doing usually will continue doing it, just for another company or their own company. Elon made a lot of these people very very rich. I don’t think all that money will make them stupid also. They all can now add on their resumes that they created a company form nothing to 44 billion Dollars in value and offloaded at its peak to a foolish investor. A great story to tell

in addition, I am very excited about the upcoming Christmas release, I’m sure it will be 🔥
I mean, I’m sure it will be a good time to lay off employees to increase fourth-quarter profits


----------



## Madmolecule

bwilson4web said:


> I’ve heard reports about the App TicTak being a Chinese risk to access personal data. Then I’ve heard Musk plans new Twitter to become competition. So who do you want to be afraid of?
> 
> FYI, I am not a TicTak user and barely use Twitter. But new Facebook/Meta is driving me away too. As for YouTube, the ads make it nearly unusable unless you pay their ad-free fee.
> 
> 
> Bob Wilson


the Chinese are already building Teslas. Tesla is not building cars in China. The Chinese are building teslas in China. I do not fear a global economy. The privacy ship has sailed.

I thought years ago when the US tried to break up Microsoft and Apple, no one thought the competition would come from outside the United States, like we had all the smart people, ha ha

Elon has not said one negative thing about the Chinese government when it comes to Covid shut down, but he craps all over the US government. I think he is the one scared that China will take control of his plant, or shut it down. If he talks bad about their government, even on his free speech platforms, Twitter. If china was to do that, I hope we’re not under any obligation to go rescue Tesla, or their shareholders from a bad Chinese investment


----------



## Madmolecule

When I finish my wooden one and tube preamp, I”ll try plugging it into my aux port on my model 3. At minimum it can be used for pothole detection.
Right now it’s only used for the mirrorball helmet


----------



## Madmolecule

proprietary service, the only difference between Tesla, and everybody else


----------



## Madmolecule

Sounds like his team of crack genius spent the week removing minefield, laughing at how poorly the existing code is, complaining obout SF homeless and that it smells like weed and creating unwoke memes. Clear sailing from hear. I hope, I can one day pay monthly for free speech everywhere. I even get my responses to threads that I created relocated to the No zip sorting bin. America, I love the freedom of expression 

no plan to begin with
no plan now
just hubris and tan balls


----------



## Klaus-rf

Madmolecule said:


> just hubris and tan balls


 TMI??


----------



## bwilson4web

There are YouTubes of an Elon interview by Ron Baron (yes that Ron Baron.) Elon’s plan for Twitter makes a lot of sense. More importantly he brought A-team programmers. The new Twitter sounds interesting.

Bob Wilson


----------



## Madmolecule

I could not think of a better way to waste 44 billion. Investors and hardcore twitter users or employees don’t agree he as a plan or a good plan, Tesla engineers fixing twitter. Scan a few lines of code after you fired or threaten the people that might help you understand. This would be like bringing a California cheer squad, to try to fix the Dallas Cowboys. Are these the engineers that wrote the messaging for the Tesla app and in the Tesla car. It’s the worst messaging ever, ever, ever. You still can’t reply to group text, no images, and these programmers are going to fix Twitter.

there are zero success stories of rich fools doing hostile takeovers of companies for ego reasons and making them better or more profitable. Plenty examples of the employees that made those companies great leaving and having tremendous success doing something very similar or adjacent. The winner of tonight’s powerball can use their winnings to pay one year of Debt service on the twitter purchase. oh it’s gonna be a great company and ever a greater investment for eon

Jim Synergy ($8 verified)

The tesla engineers just want a break from making excuses instead of producs and to get to smoke some SF success. Also, Elon is a huckster not and engineer. many engineers like myself find him embarrassing as and engineer. just because sandy (non engineer) thinks your the best engineer does not make it so,


----------



## Madmolecule

Not illegal but extremely foolish. Elon views employs as liabilities and not assets. He dreams of a bot run workforce. What he did was fire 50% of the experience and relationships that Twitter had with vendors advertisers employees and customers. i don’t think he cut costs without cutting value. He is paying them three months severance. He will not only get zero value, but will get a negative value from all these employees. Perfect timing, right when election adds will start drying up. His tweets, now, as owner are becoming a huge financial liability and risk for Twitter and possibly Tesla

Plus, all Elon has proposed is fantasy, not product. The code hasn’t been written, and by the time the disgruntled employees or the Tesla engineers write the code to accomplish the Elon and peasants plan, I’ll will have a full self driving car.

the simple facts: 
%0 additional bots removed
%50 human employees, or leaches, removed
big % increase in hate speech
big % decrease in advertisers

great plan, please finish software, so I can send you my latte money for premium connectivity

One more question, once I pay for one month and get my blue checkmark, if I cancel my subscription, do I lose my blue checkmark, can I buy your check mark if you miss a payment?


----------



## Madmolecule

Yes, I have seen nothing concrete that Elon is a Tesla asset


----------



## bwilson4web

_Elon views … _​​Unless you are Elon, just another internet opinion.

Bob Wilson


----------



## Madmolecule

I am not Elon, nor would ever want to be confused as him. But I will correct my insensitive text. Elon treats employees like liabilities, and not assets, in my opinion, and from my observations. Also, I am not a genius, and as hard as I think, my hair will not grow back. Also, I am an engineer and the Elon is not.

I’m not even smart enough to know what happened to the hundred dollars I invested on the cybertruck.

Have you observed a different Elon? I have mainly witnessed an egotistical huckster still selling vaporware software and features as products with no remorse or care for the great people helping him to produce it. Working very hard, getting stock options, instead of cash sucks when the stock crash partly due to foolish leadership

Tetter is hemorrhaging advertisers. Most of them now will just have their leader tweet instead of using advertising to send their message, like Tesla

the only smart people I see is Twitter. They lived the American dream. provided an innovative product that help people around the world from basically nothing, then sold it for more that you ever imagined at its peak to and egotistical fool. Plus, there’s no concern that he might or will ruin it, there are plenty of alternatives now.


----------



## bwilson4web

Thank you, Elon is a puzzle to many.

Terribly bright, he also pushes the envelope of what is possible with each failure being treated as tuition in the school of hard knocks. Then he makes a new plan to meet his goals with a much greater probability of success.

Retired, I identify with him, Steve Jobs, and Edison in how they work through failures to achieve their goals. Lacking the degree, each has learned enough about physics and math to be superb, functional engineers. As for people skills, they often come up short of what others want to see. For example, Nikola Tesla was fooled by an Edison ‘joke’ and Tesla quit.

I can admire demonstrated engineering skills even if by rascals. I just wish my FSD purchase could have been in TSLA stock instead of cash. So I admire their successes without getting bogged down by their failures … my tuition in the school of hard knocks.

Bob Wilson


----------



## kablooie

Since several of Tesla's top FSD programmers have been moved to Twitter, seems that would indicate that FSD development will slow down and updates will take even longer.


----------



## Klaus-rf

kablooie said:


> Since several of Tesla's top FSD programmers have been moved to Twitter, seems that would indicate that FSD development will slow down and updates will take even longer.


 I thought FSD was already finished? It's been more than Two Weeks, No? I heard somewhere that there are Tesla cars right now making their way from New York to LA. A convoy. Normally we'd see tweets show up every hour on twitter with updates and pictures but there aren't any drivers to tweet. Just a bunch of news camera vans (all ICE, btw) following along, documenting the first ever trans-continental self-driving convoy event.

I'm still wondering how these cars are gonna feed themselves. I'll have to watch tonight's 6 O'Clock news to find out.


----------



## DocScott

bwilson4web said:


> Retired, I identify with him, Steve Jobs, and Edison in how they work through failures to achieve their goals. Lacking the degree, each has learned enough about physics and math to be superb, functional engineers.


Huh?

Musk has a degree in physics from an Ivy League school.


----------



## bwilson4web

Some degreed engineers claim that is a requirement and degrees in other subjects don't matter. But I've met enough 'degreed engineers' who were disasters and non-degreed individuals who excelled.

Bob Wilson


----------



## Madmolecule

Yes, you must have a degree in engineering from and accredited university to be an engineer. And yes, I’ve met plenty of poor engineers that have degrees. Additional supervised experience, certification and testing is required as well as continuing education to be a professional engineer. I’m on the academic advisory board for Georgia Southern. They just got accredited in engineering and it took more than just saying they went to the school of hard knocks.
I’m sure there are license airline pilots that are not good. But if you’re very good on Microsoft simulator, you are not a pilot.
Please stop calling people who are not engineers engineers that is disrespectful as well as ignorant in my opinion.
At best he is a graduate of the school of luck, and surrounding himself with intelligent, motivated people. Many of the these would like to fire now.

this does not mean you have to be an engineer to invent revolutionary things. Just look at the pillow dude he invented the pillow and he’s not an engineer.

Jim Engineer
electrical engineer and PHD in hard knocks (one does not prohibit the other)


----------



## PalmtreesCalling

I used to comment on Twitter until Elon decided to allow Trump back on, and I deleted my account.


----------



## Madmolecule

It is usually the Full Self Driving, out sleep cruising, probably to grab some smokes. My sentry has been known to post fake videos acting like it’s been in the driveway the whole night. I think it’s known as Elon factory mode


----------



## bwilson4web

I have yet to find useful content on Twitter. But then I have PriusChat, InSideEV, and TeslaOwners.

Bob Wilson


----------



## Klaus-rf

PalmtreesCalling said:


> I used to comment on Twitter until Elon decided to allow Trump back on, and I deleted my account.


 He "decided" that, and tweeted about it, long before he "invested" in buying the bird bath.


----------



## Klaus-rf

Yeah, because radar (which is EXCELLENT at measuring speed differentials and distances) was just too good, didn't require constant cleaning. No challenge.


----------



## Madmolecule

In the meantime, I would continue to pester the bot with questions. I would send a message every other day asking specifics about the vehicle. The weight, will they detail it, what is the proper tire pressure etc. this way you will have a long list of unanswered questions which should help you get your $250 back. At worst you will have some of the answers you will need if you purchase in the car, because customer service is nonexistent after the purchase. Car salesman used to always start off by saying how can I earn your business. I would give Tesla a chance to do just that. By the beginning of the year they might be willing to start negotiating on pricing and other things.


----------



## Klaus-rf

More PROOF he's mentally unstable, and borderline CRAZY.

Two Weeks!
Two Weeks!
Two Weeks!

The real question: Has he been this CRAZY all along and we're just now noticing? Or is this a new disease?


----------



## Madmolecule

Madmolecule said:


> In the meantime, I would continue to pester the bot with questions. I would send a message every other day asking specifics about the vehicle. The weight, will they detail it, what is the proper tire pressure etc. this way you will have a long list of unanswered questions which should help you get your $250 back. At worst you will have some of the answers you will need if you purchase in the car, because customer service is nonexistent after the purchase. Car salesman used to always start off by saying how can I earn your business. I would give Tesla a chance to do just that. By the beginning of the year they might be willing to start negotiating on pricing and other things.





Madmolecule said:


> In the meantime, I would continue to pester the bot with questions. I would send a message every other day asking specifics about the vehicle. The weight, will they detail it, what is the proper tire pressure etc. this way you will have a long list of unanswered questions which should help you get your $250 back. At worst you will have some of the answers you will need if you purchase in the car, because customer service is nonexistent after the purchase. Car salesman used to always start off by saying how can I earn your business. I would give Tesla a chance to do just that. By the beginning of the year they might be willing to start negotiating on pricing and other things.


It’s terrible when the moderators keep removing responses that are exactly on the topic to help out potential buyers. I guess I should just say buy one before the price goes up, the Tesla is an investment


----------



## DocScott

IMHO, "Relocated off-topic conversations" should not be a place to move "on-topic moderately controversial posts."

Recently, a lot of the time I come here and I see something that's clearly a direct reply to something in some other thread. But the _conversation_ wasn't moved, just the one reply. (And no, that doesn't just apply to one particular forum member--lots of the recent stuff moved to this thread looks like that.)


----------



## iChris93

DocScott said:


> IMHO, "Relocated off-topic conversations" should not be a place to move "on-topic moderately controversial posts."
> 
> Recently, a lot of the time I come here and I see something that's clearly a direct reply to something in some other thread. But the _conversation_ wasn't moved, just the one reply. (And no, that doesn't just apply to one particular forum member--lots of the recent stuff moved to this thread looks like that.)


If you feel something has been unjustly moved, please report it and we will try to take a look.


----------



## Nom

Klaus-rf said:


> A motor that _I_ could carry in my hand? Like a kitten, a smart phone or a 64 ounce soda?
> 
> I don't think so.


So, you are saying he is lying. Easy to accuse. 

A rocket that takes off and lands vertically — and gets reused …. The guy has shown some amazing achievements.


----------



## shareef777

Nom said:


> So, you are saying he is lying. Easy to accuse.
> 
> A rocket that takes off and lands vertically — and gets reused …. The guy has shown some amazing achievements.


While I don’t agree that he’s lying about the motor, he’s obviously lied before. Regardless of his achievements, let’s not act like he’s a saint.


----------



## shareef777

Klaus-rf said:


> IIRC rockets have been taking off vertically for many centuries. <g>


But have only been coming back and landing routinely with SpaceX. Give credit where credit is due. What have NewShepard/Starliner/Orion done? Still waiting for the crewed launches and after how much untold $$$?


----------



## DocScott

shareef777 said:


> But have only been coming back and landing routinely with SpaceX. Give credit where credit is due. What have NewShepard/Starliner/Orion done? Still waiting for the crewed launches and after how much untold $$$?


What has New Shepard done? Crewed launch and landing--6 times, so far, many of them with civilian passengers. Vertical take off and landing, with the crew capsule coming down on land, unlike Dragon.

Yes, SpaceX is way ahead of Blue Origin overall. But as you say, give credit where credit is due! If you're still waiting for crewed launches of Blue Origin then you haven't been paying much attention...


----------



## shareef777

DocScott said:


> What has New Shepard done? Crewed launch and landing--6 times, so far, many of them with civilian passengers. Vertical take off and landing, with the crew capsule coming down on land, unlike Dragon.
> 
> Yes, SpaceX is way ahead of Blue Origin overall. But as you say, give credit where credit is due! If you're still waiting for crewed launches of Blue Origin then you haven't been paying much attention...


Yes yes, so has SpaceshipOne. Don’t know about you, but joy rides for the rich to the edge of space isn’t something I give shout outs for. Suppose it’s cool, but so is Bezos’ half billion dollar super yacht.


----------



## francoisp

shareef777 said:


> But have only been coming back and landing routinely with SpaceX. Give credit where credit is due. What have NewShepard/Starliner/Orion done? Still waiting for the crewed launches and after how much untold $$$?


While I'm acknowledging his achievements, Musk doesn't have a vehicle that can go around the moon and come back. His Starship hasn't seen the stars so far.


----------



## francoisp

Nom said:


> Some people are so blinded by anger at someone they refuse to believe or acknowledge they can do something pretty good and cool. @Klaus-rf, your willful disregard of clear statements in the notes above, suggests you may be one of these people. oh well.


I don't think anyone dispute that Musk (and his team, let's not forget it) has achieved several incredible feat that the common wisdom deemed impossible or farfetched. However worshipping the man isn't healthy either.


----------



## Nom

Who says worship? This board is full of people that downright loath the guy at this point. They far far far outweigh the folks that ‘worship’ him on this board. They love to post about their disdain. So much so that they can’t even acknowledge the good stuff.

I don’t worship him. But damn, he’s done a lot for humanity and I’m damn appreciative.


----------



## Klaus-rf

Barbaraosa said:


> I have been trying but they don’t make it easy to find out how to contact them. Any suggestions?


1. Message the head twat on the Twitter.
2. Pray to your favorite god(s).
3. Park your car in front of a Tesla showroom and set it on fire (be mindful of local laws).


----------

