# Is 280 mile sufficient for AWD/Performance Model Y?



## Steve S.

A big round of the applause for the Model Y unveil. As far as meeting the market demand, I believe that Tesla has just unveiled a new landmark on its journey to sustainable energy/transport, and I put down a deposit for a Model Y Performance right away.

Aside from the close resemblance to Model 3, I feel uncertain about its driving range of 280 miles. At 90% status of charge, it would be good for 252 miles in the ideal conditions, and that 252-mile would mean even less in the winter time or highway driving speed of 75-MPH or more. Furthermore, in the latest Episode of Riding the Lightning podcast (Episode 189), Ryan suggested that his Model 3 Performance had never reached the claimed 310-mile range, supported by the average power consumption rate of over 300 watt/mile over time. That would put the actual driving range at 250 miles for the Model 3 Performance. If the same evidence holds true for a bigger, heavy Model Y, would the actual driving range be only 220-230 miles??

Tesla advertises a 300-mile range for Model Y, but AWD is one of the biggest reasons people buy SUV/Compact SUV/Crossover over traditional FWD/RWD family sedans. So the actual driving range of the AWD/Performance Model Y can be critical for people to decide whether they would buy this car or not and/or to evaluate whether it is a good purchase.

So my questions are:

If you own a Performance Model 3, what is your expectation on the actual range for the AWD/Performance Model Y based on your experience with Model 3 Performance?
If you drive Tesla or any other electric cars, do you think the claimed 280-mile range is sufficient for a Compact SUV/Crossover like Model Y?
Do you think Tesla will improve Model Y range rating by the time when its production starts in Fall 2020?


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## FRC

My P3D's range is more than adequate for my needs. I think people (out of ignorance) get too hung up on the range number. In the case of the performance model Y, with a stated range of 280, the natural tendency is to think: What if I need to go 300? Instead the more accurate thought should be: How far is my normal home to home day? With the proper home-charging set up, you can leave each morning with enough range to meet your daily needs unless your daily needs exceed, say, 250 miles. Typically, the only time that range becomes critical is for road trips. Personally, I find that nature insists that I stop every 200 miles/3 hours to eat, drink, stretch, or pee. And these nature stops generally let me relax while the car recharges. Long trips are much more enjoyable in my Tesla.

So to answer your question more directly, I think that a range of 280 is more than adequate to meet the needs of all but the most unusual of cases.


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## Steve S.

FRC said:


> My P3D's range is more than adequate for my needs.
> 
> So to answer your question more directly, I think that a range of 280 is more than adequate to meet the needs of all but the most unusual of cases.


What would your estimate on the power consumption (watt/mile) if you switch your P3D to Model Y Performance?


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## FRC

Right now my P3D is has averaged 265 Wh/m. This is about 10% off the rated 240Wh/m that should produce 310 miles of range. The 2 factors that have negatively impacted my average are 1: Six months of bad weather driving, and 2: About 25% of my miles have been road trip miles consistently running 75 mph. I expect that over the next 6 months I'll stay under 240 Wh/m. I have no way to know how my experience would translate to the model y, but I would expect Tesla's estimates to be close. The fact is that efficiency numbers are somewhat apples to oranges when you try to compare one driver to another. If my wife drove 14K miles in my car her average would likely be over 320 Wh/m. Different driving styles can produce dramatically different results.


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## Steve S.

FRC said:


> Right now my P3D is has averaged 265 Wh/m. This is about 10% off the rated 240Wh/m that should produce 310 miles of range. The 2 factors that have negatively impacted my average are 1: Six months of bad weather driving, and 2: About 25% of my miles have been road trip miles consistently running 75 mph. I expect that over the next 6 months I'll stay under 240 Wh/m. I have no way to know how my experience would translate to the model y, but I would expect Tesla's estimates to be close. The fact is that efficiency numbers are somewhat apples to oranges when you try to compare one driver to another. If my wife drove 14K miles in my car her average would likely be over 320 Wh/m. Different driving styles can produce dramatically different results.


Thanks. part of my intention was to get an idea on the actual power consumption that P3D owners have gotten on their cars. given the motors and battery pack are kept the same while Model Y is heavier (roughly 10% i assume), I would be able to get a rough idea on the power consumption for the Model Y.

Then I also noticed that your P3D is equipped with 18" wheels, comparing with 20" wheels on Ryan's car, which partially explained your wh/m is better than his. I wish Tesla still provide such option to pair 18" or 19" wheels with Performance trim.


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## Ed Woodrick

As someone that had an 88 mile Leaf. and now has a 150 mile Leaf, I can easily say that 280 is more than sufficient. 
The Supercharger network is built so that it should take you between all of the stations. 

In the winter, you drop about 30%, still is better than the 88 miles and 150 mile Leaf at 30% of those numbers.


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## garsh

Steve S. said:


> supported by the average power consumption rate of over 300 watt/mile over time.


I blame the heater. That thing is a major power-suck.

I've also been averaging right around 300 Wh/mile, all through the cold part of the year. But I performed an experiment a couple of times - I set the climate control temperature to LO to turn off the heater completely. When I did that, my average consumption was around 250 Wh/mile (driving at 55-65 mph). So once summer comes around, I have no doubt that I'll be able to get quite close to the EPA-rating of 310 miles on a full charge. But you do have to keep your speed down and the heater off to reach it.


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## Cubs15

I have a M3P with 20 in tires and have experienced similarly poor wh/mi...averaging 315 over my first 5k miles. It's a rare trip that I get down to upper 200s wh/mi and that's with aggressive attempts to maximize range (ie, slow acceleration, use of full regen, and limited use of heater). 

Personally, I find the range more than sufficient for daily needs, though getting closer to 310 miles would have been welcome the one time I took my tesla on a road trip. That said, I do find it extremely frustrating /misleading that tesla advertises range based on 18 in tires when anyone picking up a M3P today (with performance package) will get nowhere near that. 

I am also on waiting list for a model y performance but have similar concerns about the delta between actual vs. stated range.


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## garsh

Cubs15 said:


> I have a M3P with 20 in tires and have experienced similarly poor wh/mi...averaging 315 over my first 5k miles. It's a rare trip that I get down to upper 200s wh/mi and that's with aggressive attempts to maximize range (ie, slow acceleration, use of full regen, and limited use of heater).


Keep your speed below 65mph. You also really need to completely turn off the heater to see benefits. Just turn the temperature all the way down to "LO". When I do that, I can easily get below 250 Wh/mile.

But, since I have a big battery, I don't usually do that. I just do it now and then to satisfy my scientific curiousity.


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## ADK46

A 20-mile reduction in range can be countered by going about 3.5 mph slower, necessary only for the rare occasions that 20 miles would make a difference. Dressing warmly in winter will probably do the same. Someone should re-issue "car blankets" as "EV blankets".

Here's how range anxiety has worked for me:

1) _Leaving the house with a full tank every day ("free" with solar, sorta) completely overwhelms the occasional inconvenience of an en route charging stop._ Six months into ownership, I've never faced that inconvenience.

2) When I've found myself having to go somewhere a bit distant for the first time, I've been careful with my speed and heater setting. For the return, I've found that I can drive normally. For the next trip to that destination, I can drive normally both ways.


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## FRC

ADK46 said:


> A 20-mile reduction in range can be countered by going about 3.5 mph slower


My TACC doesn't have half-mile increments.


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## Steve S.

The intention of this thread is not to spread ‘range anxiety’. We had our Model 3 for nearly a year now, we could get around with 200-mile range or less for 95% of the year. But the 300+ mile range does make a difference on road trips because it gives people the option whether to charge up now or later, at this stop or next stop. Maybe the next stop has better facilities or more choice of restaurants, shops. We have that flexibility when we have the additional range. 

I was hoping that this thread could establish a realistic estimate on the actual range of the Model Y and gather people’s opinions on how Tesla advertises its features. Hopefully future owners won’t be disappointed on the actual ownership experience. I know I won’t be disappointed if I am getting what I have expected.


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## Scubastevo80

Steve S. said:


> The intention of this thread is not to spread 'range anxiety'. We had our Model 3 for nearly a year now, we could get around with 200-mile range or less for 95% of the year. But the 300+ mile range does make a difference on road trips because it gives people the option whether to charge up now or later, at this stop or next stop. Maybe the next stop has better facilities or more choice of restaurants, shops. We have that flexibility when we have the additional range.
> 
> I was hoping that this thread could establish a realistic estimate on the actual range of the Model Y and gather people's opinions on how Tesla advertises its features. Hopefully future owners won't be disappointed on the actual ownership experience. I know I won't be disappointed if I am getting what I have expected.


Road trips really are the differentiator here for people coming from gas cars. My weekly commute with my dual motor 3 is very easy to manage (40 mile round trip drive each day). I could technically get by on less than 200 miles of range charging every other day at home. Even in winter, I get between 245wh/mi and 320wh/mi. This is with cycling the heat on low fan speeds at 69 degrees when needed and keeping it off most of the time. Leaving the house with no regen and a cold battery is the other killer.

For road trips, I think this is where most of the anxiety / frustration comes in. For example, we're going to south Carolina in a few weeks in our 270 mile range Model S. For the 670 mile trip, the planner says we will stop 5 times for a total of 2hr 45 min of charging. That is significantly more than two 15 min stops we would have made with the old Lexus. We'll certainly make it work, but I think this is where people wish for the greater range.


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## Bobby Garrity

Do keep in mind that road trips are both when range matters most (or at all) and when range is the lowest. I just came back from the longest electric road trip I've taken so far (from Chapel Hill, NC to New Orleans and back) and we were averaging about 300Wh/mi the whole way (and that's with LR RWD, 18in wheels, aero caps on). I was wondering why it was so high, as I normally am in the mid 200's even at highway speeds. We were going pretty fast (70mph speed limit on most of that route, so we were in the 70's for most of it), but it was also because we had 4 people in the car and all of our luggage. The weight made more of a difference than I expected. So just remember that on road trips you will have more weight, more drag, and to address the OP's question, you'll have two motors and likely larger wheels. So it wouldn't surprise me to see AWD Model Y owners getting in the high 300's for Wh/mi.

But, then again, by the time you get the Model Y, the Supercharger network may be at a point where that doesn't matter at all.


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## garsh

Well said, @Scubastevo80 and @Bobby Garrity. Road trips are the one area where EVs are not yet as convenient as combustion vehicles. At least with a Tesla, they're possible, unlike most other EVs.

The solution isn't too far away though (not for our cars - for future Tesla offerings). Consider the new Tesla Roadster. It has a 200 kWh battery pack (we suspect), good for 600 miles of range. With a V3 supercharger pumping electrons at 250 kW, It should be able to add 400 miles of range in 30 minutes. Now your charging stop is only 2-3 times longer than stopping for gasoline (assuming 10-15 minutes to refuel), AND you're not stopping any more often than you would for a combustion vehicle. If Tesla can get the V3 superchargers to put out more power (or come out with a V4 supercharger to do so), it should completely remove that last combustion car advantage.


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## Kizzy

I worry a little about the AWD range on the Y seeming so low when all the other LR Y and 3 options are all 300 miles of range or higher. It looks like Tesla increased the size of the battery pack on the Standard end of the range. If there’s significant public pushback (like the trunk on Model 3?), I could see a delay and revision—maybe. This would be a bad idea unless greater energy density of cells can be increased and were already on the roadmap for this platform, in my opinion.

But, as stated before, most folks may not need all that range all at once. 

Because I haven’t seen the math here, I’ll just leave a little potential data point…

We know Model 3 (3D and P3D) have a rated Wh/mile of 240 Wh/mile to get to 310 miles.

Taking the product of those two figures to get reported available battery capacity (74.4 kWh) and dividing by the Model YD and Y3D (I don’t know if those abbreviations work) 280 mile estimated range, we get about 265 Wh/mile (almost 10% higher than Model 3). For the RWD, we get 248 Wh/mile (compared to Model 3 RWD which appears to be about 229 Wh/mile).

I’m pretty sure I did the math right, but I’m sure someone will chime in if I’ve made an egregious error.


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## Ed Woodrick

One of the things that many of you will find as we move into the warmer months and start trying to hit the max numbers, is that little things start to add up quickly.

18 Aero covers to Aero covers off, about 5%
19 wheels, 5-10% off
Above 45, every 5mph added, about 10% off

The speed differential is fairly easy to see. Look at the energy graphs, find a preferably long straight road, or at least a repeatable 10-20 mile segment and run it at different speeds. With the 18 aero covers on at 65, you should be able to easily hit the EPA range, you can start seeing the range drop as you speed up.

Some other analysis has indicated that when travelling long trips, 70-75 is the optimal speed. Not because that's the best efficiency, but when you include charging stops, that optimizes the trip time.

But, as Spring is here and summer approaches, get off the Interstates, enjoy what America really looks like.


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## garsh

Kizzy said:


> It looks like Tesla increased the size of the battery pack on the Standard end of the range.


Yep. I'm pretty sure that the Standard Model Y battery (230 miles) is the same as the Standard Plus Model 3 battery (240 miles).


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## alexf

310 miles on a P3D is a myth 

Oh yeah, it’s totally practical to drive 65 in a 75 with the heat off. No problem! Except at 65mph you’d get murdered here in Texas.

That said I did my research before I bought it. I knew what I was getting into, and I have enough range for my needs... but it would be nice if they updated the numbers to be more realistic.


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## garsh

alexf said:


> 310 miles on a P3D is a myth


The problem is the EPA's highway cycle that is used to help determine these range numbers. The speeds never go above 60 mph.










Tesla used to publish a chart of "speed vs. range" for the Model S. It would be nice to have a similar chart for the Model 3, just to provide a more realistic range number for various speeds.


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## alexf

Agreed. It's not so much of an issue with ICE, but it certainly can be with an EV. Then again, they'd probably "scare" people.

For the folks reading this later on, I run at about 80-85% efficiency on the whole, which means I'm going to see about 250 miles of range. I don't do any "spirited driving" and I stick to the speed limit - which here in Texas is 70mph on the highway and usually 55-60mph on roads.

Edit: Efficiency is calculated vs 310 mile range, and I use teslafi.com to track.


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## JasonF

If you go on a long trip in a Tesla, note how the navigation sometimes instructs you to stop at every few Superchargers along the way to top up instead of stopping at one after the battery is low. This is because mid-range charging is way faster than low battery charging.

I would probably go one further and stop at nearly every supercharger along the way, charge for 10-15 min, use the restroom, etc. You’ll arrive with extra battery power, you won’t have to do any hour+ long charges, and you’ll feel more refreshed as well.

Though really if I was driving more than about 2-3 hrs away from here I’d probably just rent a car. Too many things can go wrong that far from home, and it’s better if that’s Someone Else’s Problem.


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## MelindaV

Ed Woodrick said:


> One of the things that many of you will find as we move into the warmer months and start trying to hit the max numbers, is that little things start to add up quickly.
> 
> 18 Aero covers to Aero covers off, about 5%
> 19 wheels, 5-10% off
> Above 45, every 5mph added, about 10% off
> .


On a daily basis, the largest range difference for me is elevation. Something in an ICE car I only slightly considered on icy days (no pun intended).
My house is at an elevation of 300ft while my office is at 5ft 14.5 miles away with it all being a gradual change between the two.

On average this week, my morning commute averaged 195Wh/m while my return home averaged 269Wh/m. So it costs me 37% more energy to get home than it does to go to work. Back when it was still cold, the difference between the morning (preheated and just charged) efficiency and the evening (sitting outside in the cold all day) was even greater (the week in February I looked at came to 45% more in the afternoons). But the current when heat is not needed, and not yet warn enough for ac, feels like is pretty true to account for most of the discrepancy to the one way elevation change.

So.... for road trips often time the route is not the same there and back. So when planning, if there are choices with less of an elevation change available, go with the route with less of a climb!


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## ADK46

Our frequent trips to the Big City 30 miles away involves a drop in altitude of about 800 feet. Always a huge difference in energy use, going and returning. But with reasonable assumptions, the total energy use is not different from a 60 mile trip on the flat. That assertion doesn't depend on data - it can be proven mathematically.

One of those assumptions is violated if it's warmer on one leg of the trip than the other. Someone should start a thread on the effect of Daylight Savings Time on electricity consumption.


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## StromTrooperM3

garsh said:


> But you do have to keep your speed down and the heater off to reach it.


I'm finding it next to impossible to keep my right foot from being mashed to the floorboard...

Do you guys have any tips for this? I'm not finding the enjoyment dwindling at all haha


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## MartyF

My only tip would be:
Keep-On enjoying your car - and don’t take all the fun out of it!


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## garsh

StromTrooperM3 said:


> I'm finding it next to impossible to keep my right foot from being mashed to the floorboard...
> 
> Do you guys have any tips for this? I'm not finding the enjoyment dwindling at all haha


My only real tip is:

If you don't actually need the maximum range, then there's no point in trying to maximize it.

Enjoy leaving all of the lesser vehicles in the dust.


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## StromTrooperM3

garsh said:


> If you don't actually need the maximum range, then there's no point in trying to maximize it.


After some time of ownership now and realizing I can stop watching the battery guage like a hawk since I never seem to be driving more than 100 miles a day...

I'm finally starting to accept I can push it as hard as I want all day long and be fine to back home for the nighty recharge..

Sure is addictive!!


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## TrevP

I think the Model Y range is perfectly fine, in fact great! I have a Model X so I know all about "less efficient". Tesla has done a fantastic job with cell and chemistry advances on the Model 3/Y compared to their previous cars


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## JWardell

I certainly wish the Y's battery range was a bit higher, but I think there is a very good chance they are able to bump it up by the time it is released.
There's a lot of time between now in then for software, hardware, and battery improvements.
You know Tesla was sure to promise only the guaranteed minimum.


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## MartyF

JWardell said:


> I certainly wish the Y's battery range was a bit higher, but I think there is a very good chance they are able to bump it up by the time it is released.
> There's a lot of time between now in then for software, hardware, and battery improvements.
> You know Tesla was sure to promise only the guaranteed minimum.


I totally agree with 'ya'
I'm also optimistic that once the Model-Y gets closer to production the anti-selling (status quo) will subside, resulting with improved specs being announced.
For example, they have been very quiet about any specific details of a power lift gate. Makes total marketing sense at this time to lay-low on promoting the "Y" too much before it gets closer to availability for purchase. It also gives Tesla more wiggle-room in the meantime.


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