# Summer tires or All Seasons (aero wheels) effect on Range



## sajakh (Oct 1, 2017)

Just got my Model 3 and I feel the tires get squirrley when rapidly accelerating or when taking curves. I love the range of Michelin MXM4 but its traction is meh. I am considering changing my tires to Michelin Super Sport 4S or the Pilot sport A/S 3+. I have the aero 18" and will keep the aero covers on. How much of an effect (percentage wise) on the range do you think I will take if I choose either one of the these tires?​​


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## garsh (Apr 4, 2016)

It's funny. On the Nissan Leaf boards, we had several threads where people replaced the OEM Bridgestone Ecopia EP422 LRR tires with Michelin MXM4 tires to get much better traction and cornering. 

With a car that has 310+ miles of range, I wouldn't worry about it too much. My guess would be at most 10%.


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## sajakh (Oct 1, 2017)

That's what I was thinking too, about 5-10%. This car is engineered so well in the handling department with it's low center of gravity and it's mid engine like weight distribution that 
it begs a better tire.


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## sajakh (Oct 1, 2017)

Would it be a big difference between the pilot sport 4s and a/s 3+?


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## garsh (Apr 4, 2016)




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## Bokonon (Apr 13, 2017)

garsh said:


> It's funny. On the Nissan Leaf boards, we had several threads where people replaced the OEM Bridgestone Ecopia EP422 LRR tires with Michelin MXM4 tires to get much better traction and cornering.


+100 to this. I have Ecopias on my e-Golf and they will spin on dry pavement in 70-degree weather at 80%+ throttle if the front wheels are not pointed dead straight ahead. On an EV with max torque at 0, they are borderline hazardous. (On the flip side, if you're cruising on the highway and you disable regen, the coasting ability is unreal, like you're gliding on ice.)

Given this experience, I have actually been wondering how well the MXMs will hold traction in everyday driving situations, so I'm glad @sajakh started this thread (and that you shared this data point from the Leaf forums).



sajakh said:


> Just got my Model 3 and I feel the tires get squirrley when rapidly accelerating or when taking curves. I love the range of Michelin MXM4 but its traction is meh.​


I see that you're in Georgia. Out of curiosity, what have the temperatures and road conditions been like in the cases where the tires start to feel like this?


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## sajakh (Oct 1, 2017)

Over the past few weeks it's been warmer like in the 70s and I've had some wheelslip especially when turning. I felt it more at the lower temps. The tires will squeal though which I hoped there better tires would alleviate.


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## Sandy (Jun 3, 2017)

sajakh said:


> Just got my Model 3 and I feel the tires get squirrley when rapidly accelerating or when taking curves. I love the range of Michelin MXM4 but its traction is meh. I am considering changing my tires to Michelin Super Sport 4S or the Pilot sport A/S 3+. I have the aero 18" and will keep the aero covers on. How much of an effect (percentage wise) on the range do you think I will take if I choose either one of the these tires?​


Your tires are still brand new. All brand new tires are 'greasy' at first. Absolutely normal. Run the correct pressures set in the morning when the tires are cold. You will find that the tires will improve considerably after the first 1000kms or so and continue to improve over the next few thousand. Give them a chance as they will definitely be quieter than the replacements your looking at as well as perform better in the wet and at lower ambient temperatures. If max summer performance is your thing and you don't care about faster tread wear and noise then go for sticky summers.


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## Guest (Feb 25, 2018)

sajakh said:


> The tires will squeal though which I hoped there *better *tires would alleviate.


Not better. Softer. Sporty tires are softer. Efficient tires are harder. 
Softer tires make more rolling resistance and wear out faster.
Depending on thread design, softer tires are usually quieter.

If you were in EU, you could easily see rolling resistance rating. 
Different between good and bad can be 10%. Aka, 300 miles vs 300-30 miles.

Keep in mind no-season tires are much grippier when temperature is optimal.
Anything below 10C is low. (50F). They become too hard for optimal grip.
Also keep in mind that sips bend too much when rubber is warm. Making tires less grippy. 
This is why extremely soft winter tire is not excellent on dry road no matter what temperature.
Grippiest tires are those that have no thread.


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## garsh (Apr 4, 2016)

Here are a couple of threads on the Nissan Leaf forum where tires are discussed, in case you'd like to read some more about peoples' experiences with them.

Bridgestone EP422 tires swapped for Michelin Primacy MXV4s.
The New Tire Replacement Post


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## Jayc (May 19, 2016)

arnis said:


> Grippiest tires are those that have no thread.


Not sure about this statement on real roads, real weather conditions. With surface water on roads you could potentially very easily aquaplane so "grip" is relative to weather conditions. This is one reason why some people blindly go for low profile big wheels assuming it always improves cornering only to discover that that is not the case.


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## Guest (Feb 25, 2018)

Summer dry weather is very real. But when it rains, that is another story.


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## PNWmisty (Aug 19, 2017)

Jayc said:


> Not sure about this statement on real roads, real weather conditions. With surface water on roads you could potentially very easily aquaplane so "grip" is relative to weather conditions. This is one reason why some people blindly go for low profile big wheels assuming it always improves cornering only to discover that that is not the case.


So true, I was in traffic court for a speeding ticket and the case before mine was a very young "ricer" (someone who has modified Japanese car, usually Honda, with low profile, wider tires, loud exhaust, etc). He had spun out on the Interstate in a heavy downpour smashed into the jersey barrier and caused a multi-vehicle pile-up. The trooper wrote him a ticket for going "too fast for conditions". He continually argued that he wasn't going too fast, he was going the same speed as everyone else. The judge reminded him multiple times that he had hydroplaned and spun out so, by definition, he was going too fast for conditions. The poor guy didn't seem capable of understanding that the appropriate speed for conditions are variable depending upon the capabilities of the vehicle being driven. He also didn't seem to understand that he had reduced the rain performance of his car by installing extra wide, low profile tires. And this is in rainy Western Washington!


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## mdfraz (Oct 17, 2017)

PNWmisty said:


> So true, I was in traffic court for a speeding ticket and the case before mine was a very young "ricer" (someone who has modified Japanese car, usually Honda, with low profile, wider tires, loud exhaust, etc). He had spun out on the Interstate in a heavy downpour smashed into the jersey barrier and caused a multi-vehicle pile-up. The trooper wrote him a ticket for going "too fast for conditions". He continually argued that he wasn't going too fast, he was going the same speed as everyone else. The judge reminded him multiple times that he had hydroplaned and spun out so, by definition, he was going too fast for conditions. The poor guy didn't seem capable of understanding that the appropriate speed for conditions are variable depending upon the capabilities of the vehicle being driven. He also didn't seem to understand that he had reduced the rain performance of his car by installing extra wide, low profile tires. And this is in rainy Western Washington!


Sometimes I think it is WAY too easy to obtain, and keep, a driver's license in America.


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## JWardell (May 9, 2016)

Almost every car I've had or known gets delivered from the factory with horrible tires. Remember that saving $10-20 per tire saves a car manufacturer billions, and it's not something they have to cover with a warranty. Furthermore, non-sticky tires get slightly better gas milage, and for someone like Tesla any extra few percent of range is huge in convincing people to buy an EV. 

My usual plan is to beat the hell out of the factory tires, so I don't feel so bad when I replace them early (year or so) with some nice grippy rubber. That usually coincides with getting a second set of wheels for dedicated sets of winter and summer tires. Perfect for next year when that tax refund comes in...


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## LucyferSam (Sep 13, 2017)

Sandy said:


> Your tires are still brand new. All brand new tires are 'greasy' at first. Absolutely normal. Run the correct pressures set in the morning when the tires are cold. You will find that the tires will improve considerably after the first 1000kms or so and continue to improve over the next few thousand. Give them a chance as they will definitely be quieter than the replacements your looking at as well as perform better in the wet and at lower ambient temperatures. If max summer performance is your thing and you don't care about faster tread wear and noise then go for sticky summers.


This is very true, and as far as all season tires go the Primacy's are very solid tires. First week or so with my car and I could get a fair bit of slip on hard acceleration, but after that they've been solid even in very cold conditions as well as snow and ice (though I will get actual winter tires for next year). I'd strongly advise giving the tires some time before deciding to swap them out.


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## Guest (Feb 26, 2018)

PNWmisty said:


> He also didn't seem to understand that he had reduced the rain performance of his car by installing extra wide, low profile tires.


Theoretically, it is illegal to use any other size of tire (width, height, diameter) that is NOT mentioned on the label (and/or manufacturers data/manual/registration data). But this is easily overlooked even in EU.


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## garsh (Apr 4, 2016)

arnis said:


> Theoretically, it is illegal to use any other size of tire (width, height, diameter) that is NOT mentioned on the label


Not true in most of the world.


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## Guest (Feb 26, 2018)

garsh said:


> Not true in most of the world.


Many parameters will not be in spec to what vehicle was certified for. 
Be it fuel economy, braking distance, safety. It's like cutting out DPF filter. Even though nothing mentions that SPECIFICALLY,
it's illegal to change noise, emissions.

So how about sharing data, that modifying vehicle in any way is ok. Like painting with different color, using using tires that are not street legal, installing hydraulic handbrake, disabling ABS system, installing awesome-looking steering wheel, changing camber, adding bull bars for safety etc.


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## garsh (Apr 4, 2016)

arnis said:


> So how about sharing data, that modifying vehicle in any way is ok.


I'm not saying that it's "ok". I'm saying that it is perfectly legal in most of the world.

arnis, you have a lot of good knowledge to share, but you have this habit of stating your opinions as facts. I usually agree with your opinions, but you really should refrain from presenting them as more than that.


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## sajakh (Oct 1, 2017)

As of now I have over 2000 miles on it, my tire pressures are 47-49 depending on temp (we've had variable Am temps) but my previous car was a BMW 335i that had pilot sports. I loved the handling of that car but I feel the model 3 is better. The car, I feel, just needs stickier tires to really take advantage of its well-designed chassis. I appreciate your response but I feel we are entering uncharted territory in regards to balancing great handling and efficiency in out EVs. I think someone needs to do some tests to look at tires looking at their efficiency and their handling ability. Tire rack, in their reviews, have been testing efficiency comparisons and handling/braking stats which is helpful but still not complete.


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## JeffinAZ (Apr 5, 2016)

sajakh said:


> Just got my Model 3 and I feel the tires get squirrley when rapidly accelerating or when taking curves. I love the range of Michelin MXM4 but its traction is meh. I am considering changing my tires to Michelin Super Sport 4S or the Pilot sport A/S 3+. I have the aero 18" and will keep the aero covers on. How much of an effect (percentage wise) on the range do you think I will take if I choose either one of the these tires?​


I am coming from a Porsche and am also experiencing the same "squirrleyness" when accelerating as you are...


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## PNWmisty (Aug 19, 2017)

sajakh said:


> As of now I have over 2000 miles on it, my tire pressures are 47-49 depending on temp (we've had variable Am temps) but my previous car was a BMW 335i that had pilot sports. I loved the handling of that car but I feel the model 3 is better. The car, I feel, just needs stickier tires to really take advantage of its well-designed chassis.


Why are you running 47-49 psi if you think the tires need more grip? Max grip on those tires is going to be around 38 psi. 42 psi is a good compromise between grip/comfort/efficiency/wear.


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## The Big Bobowski (Jun 3, 2017)

Resurrecting this thread to see if I can get some advice. I've ordered my Model 3 with the 18" wheels and will put winter tires on them later this year. I plan to buy 19" rims for the rest of the year. 

My question is, for the 19s, should I get high-performance all-seasons, or high-performance summers? Are all-seasons generally a waste if I already have winter tires? This is new territory for me. We do have spring and fall here but they are generally short-lived compared to summer and winter.


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## garsh (Apr 4, 2016)

The Big Bobowski said:


> My question is, for the 19s, should I get high-performance all-seasons, or high-performance summers? Are all-seasons generally a waste if I already have winter tires? This is new territory for me. We do have spring and fall here but they are generally short-lived compared to summer and winter.


I think that @Mad Hungarian has told us that modern high-performance all-season tires are a great choice. Definitely not a waste in any sense - you don't want to run winter tires at high operating temperatures as they will wear out quickly and won't perform as well.

If you go with summer-only tires, make sure that they perform well in rain. You don't want to get any "barely street-legal" race tires for this application (which I believe are sold as summer tires). And also, find out the recommended operating temperature range. You may have to switch to your winter tires for a longer period of the year if your other tires are strictly summer.


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## Guest (Jul 5, 2018)

The Big Bobowski said:


> should I get high-performance all-seasons, or high-performance summers?


EfficientGrip Performance. Don't take supersticky tires. All prenium summer tires are already sticky enough. Sport tires wear too fast. And never take all seasons!


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## PNWmisty (Aug 19, 2017)

The Big Bobowski said:


> My question is, for the 19s, should I get high-performance all-seasons, or high-performance summers? Are all-seasons generally a waste if I already have winter tires? This is new territory for me. We do have spring and fall here but they are generally short-lived compared to summer and winter.


High-performance summer tires are good on the track. It's difficult to use their extra capability on the street unless you drive like a madman and, during the shoulder seasons they might not provide better stopping distances than a non-high performance tire (depending upon the temperature and how far you've driven them to warm them up a bit).

Basically, high-performance summer tires are not a general purpose, mass-market tire. Only get them if you want the best traction under warm, dry conditions and the short tread life doesn't concern you. Unless you are racing, you might be more satisfied with a good quality grand touring tire in the summer.


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## Guest (Jul 5, 2018)

Also keep in mind Tesla vehicles have tread life way below industry average. 
I hope Model 3 suspension is at least somewhat more reasonable.


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## garsh (Apr 4, 2016)

arnis said:


> Also keep in mind Tesla vehicles have tread life way below industry average.


Not applicable to the Model 3. It's a much lighter vehicle.


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## The Big Bobowski (Jun 3, 2017)

Great input, thanks everyone.


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## Mad Hungarian (May 20, 2016)

garsh said:


> I think that @Mad Hungarian has told us that modern high-performance all-season tires are a great choice. Definitely not a waste in any sense - you don't want to run winter tires at high operating temperatures as they will wear out quickly and won't perform as well.
> 
> If you go with summer-only tires, make sure that they perform well in rain. You don't want to get any "barely street-legal" race tires for this application (which I believe are sold as summer tires). And also, find out the recommended operating temperature range. You may have to switch to your winter tires for a longer period of the year if your other tires are strictly summer.


I stand by this position 100%. Unless you continuously flog your car to the limits, live in a place where it is _permanently _hot or hit the track at least few times a year and don't want two sets of tires, I'd go with a modern UHP all-season every time. Let's be clear here, I may be old but I ain't dead, every car I've owned (including my poor abused Volt, which is still trying to understand what fresh hell it has landed in) has been driven like it's stolen on a regular basis. And I STILL run UHP all-seasons most of the time, exceptions being track days or when I have a new set of summer-only or competition tires to evaluate.
Why?
If you haven't tried the latest generation of true UHP all-seasons (and by that I mean full-on true performance models, not these half-committed Grand- Touring affairs many OEs are fond of installing) then it'll be hard to believe, but trust me when I tell you that they're easily capable of pulling off performance numbers that only the best summer-only tires could just a decade ago. Can new summer-only extreme performance tires do even better now? Of course they can. But we've reached a point in my opinion where we really don't need any more grip for street use on a nice warm dry day, anyone who's regularly (emphasis on the _regularly_) reaching the cornering or braking limits of these new generation UHP tires on a summer day, whether in the sun or the rain, is looking to land themselves in a helicopter chase scene on Cops. However change the season to spring or fall and it's a whole different story. Thanks to climate change we are starting to see some really weird weather in places we couldn't have imagined it just a few years ago. Blizzards in Texas. 100F + in July in Toronto (ask @TrevP ). And if you drive anything like I do it is FAR more likely you will get into trouble when the temps go from being 80F/27C one week to 40F/5C the next. Which can actually happen where I live, and sadly that's no longer just here. And when you go plowing around that same tight off ramp you love to hang the tail out on at 52 mph like you did the week before and you're suddenly watching the traffic behind you through the windshield instead of the mirror, you soon realize that summer-only tires do indeed NOT perform the same at cold temperatures.

In all seriousness for most folks and situations it's far, far more likely you're going to reach the traction limits in these cold snap moments, especially when rainy, than you ever will on a nice warm day. Of course even the best all-season tires will lose grip as the temperatures drop, but not anywhere near the same rate as a summer-only UHP will. At anything below 45F/7C they definitely have the upper hand.
Now would I use an all-season year-round in Canada? No friggin way. Any place that regularly sees -25C temps and 1 foot dumps of snow in a few hours absolutely requires dedicated winter tires.
But if I lived anywhere in the more southern U.S. states I'd still go with an all-season for that extra safety margin when mom nature goes screwy. And you know she will, this is not getting any better any time soon. Forget the Zombie Apocalypse. Best to prep your car for Weather Armageddon.


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## Guest (Jul 5, 2018)

garsh said:


> Not applicable to the Model 3. It's a much lighter vehicle.


That would be true if vehicle mass would be the only reason for excessive wear.
Vans weight more than Model X and often have tiny tiny regular tires (almost regular, SUV class, or XL, "more sidewall type") sometimes as small as 15-16". And those last as usual.


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## The Big Bobowski (Jun 3, 2017)

@Mad Hungarian Awesome post. Exactly what I needed to hear.

So, are there any specific recommendations for UHP all-seasons? Stick with the Michelin MXM4 or Continental ProContact RX that the Model 3 comes with (and which one)? Or are there other great options I should look into?


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## Mad Hungarian (May 20, 2016)

The Big Bobowski said:


> @Mad Hungarian Awesome post. Exactly what I needed to hear.
> 
> So, are there any specific recommendations for UHP all-seasons? Stick with the Michelin MXM4 or Continental ProContact RX that the Model 3 comes with (and which one)? Or are there other great options I should look into?


Both the OE Michelin and Conti are very good tires, but they are really jack-of-all-trades/masters-of-none. By that I mean they've been charged with having to provide low rolling resistance, low noise levels, comfortable ride and reasonable response/performance in all types of weather save for full-on winter. That's a tall list to fill and they both do a pretty decent job. However if you don't mind trading away a little bit, and I do mean little, of the first three categories you can get a noticeable boost in response/performance.
Choices for 235/40R19 remain a bit limited in that most tend to be more Grand Touring type tires which are a blend as described above, but in the real UHP stuff I can heartily recommend Continental's ExtremeContact DWS 06, Yokohama's Advan Sport A/S and especially Falken's Azenis FK450 A/S.


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## JG Collins (Jul 16, 2018)

Mad Hungarian said:


> Both the OE Michelin and Conti are very good tires, but they are really jack-of-all-trades/masters-of-none. By that I mean they've been charged with having to provide low rolling resistance, low noise levels, comfortable ride and reasonable response/performance in all types of weather save for full-on winter. That's a tall list to fill and they both do a pretty decent job. However if you don't mind trading away a little bit, and I do mean little, of the first three categories you can get a noticeable boost in response/performance.
> Choices for 235/40R19 remain a bit limited in that most tend to be more Grand Touring type tires which are a blend as described above, but in the real UHP stuff I can heartily recommend Continental's ExtremeContact DWS 06, Yokohama's Advan Sport A/S and especially Falken's Azenis FK450 A/S.


Hi there, question for you and anyone else who might be able to assist me. I've tried getting info from a Michelin rep and Tire Rack but they've not exactly been helpful for my specific question. And I'm a huge neophyte when it comes to tires, as all my previous vehicles have never really been suited for anything beyond factory.

I'm loving the Michelin Pilot Sport All-Season 3+ tires, and plan on ordering 19" wheels, but unfortunately, these tires aren't offered at the 235/40R size Tesla uses for their 19" sport wheels (my Model 3 is coming with aero wheels, btw, but I'll probably be selling those). My question is, what alternative tire size(s) would you recommend that should work just fine with the car/wheel well/brakes/caliper etc? Further, which alternate size would you suggest is preferable for both looks and performance (similar to, or even nicer than, the OE sport tires): 225/35ZR, 225/40ZR, 245/35ZR, 245/40ZR or 245/40R? (I also really don't quite understand the difference between the latter two tires, if you can fill me in on that as well).

I appreciate your advice. 

Cheers!


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## Mad Hungarian (May 20, 2016)

JG Collins said:


> Hi there, question for you and anyone else who might be able to assist me. I've tried getting info from a Michelin rep and Tire Rack but they've not exactly been helpful for my specific question. And I'm a huge neophyte when it comes to tires, as all my previous vehicles have never really been suited for anything beyond factory.
> 
> I'm loving the Michelin Pilot Sport All-Season 3+ tires, and plan on ordering 19" wheels, but unfortunately, these tires aren't offered at the 235/40R size Tesla uses for their 19" sport wheels (my Model 3 is coming with aero wheels, btw, but I'll probably be selling those). My question is, what alternative tire size(s) would you recommend that should work just fine with the car/wheel well/brakes/caliper etc? Further, which alternate size would you suggest is preferable for both looks and performance (similar to, or even nicer than, the OE sport tires): 225/35ZR, 225/40ZR, 245/35ZR, 245/40ZR or 245/40R? (I also really don't quite understand the difference between the latter two tires, if you can fill me in on that as well).
> 
> ...


Given those choices I'd probably recommend going with the 245/40R19 size. It's only 1.1% larger in overall diameter than the OE 235/40R19 and as long as you are pairing it with a wheel that is within the OE offset range (+35 to +40) you won't have any issues, other than a tiny loss of range.

As for the 245/40ZR vs 245/40R, this has to do with the evolution of how speed ratings are indicated on tires.
Tire Rack has a nice chart with explanations as to how this works.


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## JG Collins (Jul 16, 2018)

Mad Hungarian said:


> Given those choices I'd probably recommend going with the 245/40R19 size. It's only 1.1% larger in overall diameter than the OE 235/40R19 and as long as you are pairing it with a wheel that is within the OE offset range (+35 to +40) you won't have any issues, other than a tiny loss of range.
> 
> As for the 245/40ZR vs 245/40R, this has to do with the evolution of how speed ratings are indicated on tires.
> Tire Rack has a nice chart with explanations as to how this works.


Thanks for the concise and assured recommendation, I'll go ahead with that then!

As for offset, the wheels I'm looking at don't have it listed, but these are 19x8.5 wheels on Tire Rack that are matched to the Tesla Model 3 and have O.E. diameter. So I'm assuming I should be in the clear?

https://www.tirerack.com/wheels/Whe...SM31910511440TG&wheelFinish=Titanium+Gunmetal

Cheers!


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## Mad Hungarian (May 20, 2016)

JG Collins said:


> Thanks for the concise and assured recommendation, I'll go ahead with that then!
> 
> As for offset, the wheels I'm looking at don't have it listed, but these are 19x8.5 wheels on Tire Rack that are matched to the Tesla Model 3 and have O.E. diameter. So I'm assuming I should be in the clear?
> 
> ...


Odd that they don't list the offset, but Tire Rack are generally precise and if anything conservative when it comes to offsets for most 
applications, so almost certainly in the +35 to +40 range. I'm sure if you called they'd be able to tell you.


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## JeffC (Jul 4, 2018)

@Mad Hungarian your thesis that:

1. Ultra High Performance All-Season tires are nearly as high performing as Max Performance Summer in the dry.
2. All season tires are more useful for more people in most places more of the time.

seems 100% correct to me. The idea that the wet traction limit would be hit more often than the dry one even for moderately sporty street drivers seems totally logical in any place that has significant rain on a relatively regular basis (which also happens to be where most people live). If I lived in any place that had rain regularly, I'd definitely consider the former over the latter.

However here in the most moderate part of California, even with climate change, our weather has remained _relatively_ constant. We unfortunately don't get much rain and will probably be getting more drought cycles. When we do have rain, it definitely has the potential to be stronger, but it's been (too) rare.

(The same pattern probably largely applies to much of the desert West, including California except near the Northern coast and rainy foothills, Nevada, the dry inland parts of Oregon and Washington, Arizona, etc.)

The weather here remains moderate, though our seasons seem inverted this year. The winter had unusually hot (peaks of 95F/35C), and the summer's been sometimes unusually cold (75F/25C) and below. It has been decidedly NOT NORMAL, though it still remains a dry pattern overall.

I'd really like to get to sets of wheels: one set with energy tires like the Aero wheels have for long distance road trips, and one for extreme performance dry or racing tires for track use. However I don't want to have two sets of wheels so will probably start with excellent Michelin Pilot Sport 4S on light racing wheels. May graduate to streetable semi-racing tires like the excellent Bridgestone RE-71R later if doing more track days than road trips.


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## TesLou (Aug 20, 2016)

Mad Hungarian said:


> Choices for 235/40R19 remain a bit limited in that most tend to be more Grand Touring type tires which are a blend as described above, but in the real UHP stuff I can heartily recommend Continental's ExtremeContact DWS 06, Yokohama's Advan Sport A/S and especially Falken's Azenis FK450 A/S.


 What would you recommend in the 18"s for mid-America? I live in Kentucky, but travel frequently to Pennsylvania, Maryland, West Virginia, and DC (and the hills and mountains that surround them). I'm not sure the stock Michelins are going to provide me the protection I need this winter. Plus, I've already got 19k miles on my car, so I've bitten pretty deeply into the tread of the stocks. I'm sure I won't need winter tires for here in Kentucky, but with the added driving to the other climes, maybe???


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## JeffC (Jul 4, 2018)

TesLou said:


> What would you recommend in the 18"s for mid-America? I live in Kentucky, but travel frequently to Pennsylvania, Maryland, West Virginia, and DC (and the hills and mountains that surround them). I'm not sure the stock Michelins are going to provide me the protection I need this winter. Plus, I've already got 19k miles on my car, so I've bitten pretty deeply into the tread of the stocks. I'm sure I won't need winter tires for here in Kentucky, but with the added driving to the other climes, maybe???


I'd recommend Michelin Pilot Sport 4S as a summer tire and Michelin Pilot Sport A/S for all season. They are consistently the top rated tire on Tire Rack both from their professional testers/racers and hundreds of their customers. Both could be wrong, but... unlikely. For the stock 18 size 235/45-18, both are available.

I love the 4S as a street performance tire: excellent feel, comfort, controllability, and relatively high limits. Great tire!

Unfortunately as @Mad Hungarian notes the A/S is not available in 235/40-19. They are available in a slightly wider and taller 245/40-19 which may work.


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## Zippy_EV (Aug 11, 2018)

JeffC said:


> I'd recommend Michelin Pilot Sport 4S as a summer tire and Michelin Pilot Sport A/S for all season. They are consistently the top rated tire on Tire Rack both from their professional testers/racers and hundreds of their customers. Both could be wrong, but... unlikely. For the stock 18 size 235/45-18, both are available.
> 
> I love the 4S as a street performance tire: excellent feel, comfort, controllability, and relatively high limits. Great tire!
> 
> Unfortunately as @Mad Hungarian notes the A/S is not available in 235/40-19. They are available in a slightly wider and taller 245/40-19 which may work.


Just to clarify what Jeff intended:
the Pilot Sport 4S is available in 235/45R18 (the exact OEM size)
the Pilot Sport A/S 3+ is available in 245/45R18 (only .8 percent larger circumference than a 235/45R18 - so it would work fine)
Kentucky gets too cold to use the Pilot Sport 4S all winter. Not an option unless you're getting another set of wheels and tires for winter. I have a car with a set of Pilot Sport A/S 3+ on it and so far it's been an excellent tire.


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## JeffC (Jul 4, 2018)

Zippy_EV said:


> Just to clarify what Jeff intended:
> the Pilot Sport 4S is available in 235/45R18 (the exact OEM size)
> the Pilot Sport A/S 3+ is available in 245/45R18 (only .8 percent larger circumference than a 235/45R18 - so it would work fine)
> Kentucky gets too cold to use the Pilot Sport 4S all winter. Not an option unless you're getting another set of wheels and tires for winter. I have a car with a set of Pilot Sport A/S 3+ on it and so far it's been an excellent tire.


Whoops, you're right, Pilot Sport A/S is available in 245/45-18 and not 235. Thanks much for the correction! 

Same situation in 19s with 245/40-19 but not 235.

Somehow I mis-searched that on Tire Rack. Reference from Michelin itself:

https://www.michelinman.com/tire/michelin/pilot-sport-a-s-3-plus

Agree all seasons would probably be best for Kentucky. Summer tires should not be used where it gets near freezing. Reference:

https://www.tirerack.com/tires/tiretech/techpage.jsp?techid=273



> *When faced with near- and below-freezing temperatures, drivers should leave their summer performance tire-equipped vehicle at home and drive a vehicle equipped with all-season or winter tires.*


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## Mad Hungarian (May 20, 2016)

JeffC said:


> Whoops, you're right, Pilot Sport A/S is available in 245/45-18 and not 235. Thanks much for the correction!
> 
> Same situation in 19s with 245/40-19 but not 235.
> 
> ...


If you're going to be travelling frequently as far north as Pennsylvania in winter I'd _highly _recommend going with a winter tire. I've been on I-81 in bad weather on good all-seasons and it was not even remotely pleasant, conditions up that way can turn really bad in a hurry.
Having said that it doesn't mean you have to give up the car's playful handling and grip in the dry for those 5 or so months, just go with a V speed rated winter and you can still have some fun when it's nice out. I'm a big fan of Falken's Eurowinter HS449 in this area, but there's also the Yokohama V905, Continental's TS 850 P, Pirelli's Sottozero Serie II, and many other ones to consider.
Another way to go is an all-season that has Severe Snow Service certification, or the "Mountain Snowflake" approval as it's often called because of the little snowflake in a symbol on the sidewall. Nokian, Goodyear, Hankook, Vredestein and others are now offering these and they may be worth looking into.


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