# Key card instead of key fob



## SoFlaModel3

Since this rumor is gaining steady traction.

What happens when you valet and you don't have the key on a key ring?

Mind you this is my curiosity as I will never valet park 

Will the card come with a pouch that has a key ring?


----------



## Michael Russo

SoFlaModel3 said:


> (...) What happens when you valet and you don't have the key on a key ring?
> (...)


Why not simply give the nice Midnight Silver colored darn thing to the valet? 



SoFlaModel3 said:


> (...) Will the card come with a pouch that has a key ring?


If not, you know who to call...? @EVANNEX , of course!


----------



## ModFather

SoFlaModel3 said:


> What happens when you valet and you don't have the key on a key ring?


What happens when you pay for a meal with a credit card? Do you put a key ring on your credit card?


----------



## SoFlaModel3

ModFather said:


> What happens when you pay for a meal with a credit card? Do you put a key ring on your credit card?


Ummm... point being the valet companies usually hang your keys on a peg board and affix a tag to the key ring.


----------



## Michael Russo

SoFlaModel3 said:


> Ummm... point being the valet companies usually hang your keys on a peg board and affix a tag to the key ring.


Maybe we need to give them the @EVANNEX references then !!


----------



## samson

I think RFID is for the employees to use as a badge so Tesla can know who drove the Model 3. 

This would also be easier to grant access to multiple Release Candidate Model 3 for testing purposes without having so many keys or cards issued. 

I strongly believe customers will get 2 key fobs with physical buttons


----------



## Michael Russo

samson said:


> I think RFID is for the employees to use as a badge so Tesla can know who drove the Model 3.
> 
> This would also be easier to grant access to multiple Release Candidate Model 3 for testing purposes without having so many keys or cards issued.
> 
> I strongly believe customers will get 2 key fobs with physical buttons


I know this may be sound archaic to some, yet I would actually prefer that... particularly if my fobs are Midnight Silver!!


----------



## ModFather

SoFlaModel3 said:


> Ummm... point being the valet companies usually hang your keys on a peg board and affix a tag to the key ring.


 This is the Dawning of the Age of Aquarius, stop thinking in the past. This is the future! On 7/28/2017 the automotive world will be turned on its head! Everything will be different. You will see the oil companies reducing the price of gasoline and absorb a temporary profit loss to try to woo the consumer back to purchase an ICE car - "cheaper to purchase and drive than an EV and more convenient too!" They will play dirty. Service stations will start giving away S&H Green Stamps again (most of the youngsters on this Forum have no idea what I am talking about) to lure business. Wacko radio/television will circulate an EV conspiracy and 33% of Americans will believe it. And parking valets will have to adapt to new ways of accounting for customer key cards. What I am going to do is simply press "summon" and my car will find me!


----------



## beantownrich

SoFlaModel3 said:


> Since this rumor is gaining steady traction.
> 
> What happens when you valet and you don't have the key on a key ring?
> 
> Mind you this is my curiosity as I will never valet park
> 
> Will the card come with a pouch that has a key ring?


Why valet, the car can look for a spot on its own


----------



## orcinus

Key cards are bad UX on so many levels.
Sincerely hope that’s not the actual, production car access control method.

Additionally, it is my understanding that on MS/MX the phone app only allows you access if the keyfob is in/near the car, for (obvious) security reasons. How would that work with a card? The car can’t detect the presence of a card near or in it. You can only swipe/wave it near a reader.

On top of that, there would have to be at least 3 readers installed into the car (front left door, trunk, dashboard) for this to work in any sensible way, as opposed to having just one, central reader with a powered (active) fob. Ludicrous (not speed).


----------



## SoFlaModel3

orcinus said:


> Additionally, it is my understanding that on MS/MX the phone app only allows you access if the keyfob is in/near the car, for (obvious) security reasons.


I don't think this is accurate. Pretty sure you don't need the keys at all.


----------



## Diamond.g

SoFlaModel3 said:


> I don't think this is accurate. Pretty sure you don't need the keys at all.


You are correct Bjorn has clips showing him allowing folks to even drive his old S with no key and him doing the remote start from his phone.


----------



## orcinus

Diamond.g said:


> You are correct Bjorn has clips showing him allowing folks to even drive his old S with no key and him doing the remote start from his phone.


Either i'm crazy, or this changed at some point, then.
Because i remember someone demonstrating phone app doesn't allow opening/closing/starting unless the key is present (near the car / in the car). In essence, a 2-factor authentication for important functions.

Might be my failing memory 

(From a security standpoint, though, that would make more sense than complete access to the car without the fob present.)


----------



## SoFlaModel3

orcinus said:


> Either i'm crazy, or this changed at some point, then.
> Because i remember someone demonstrating phone app doesn't allow opening/closing/starting unless the key is present (near the car / in the car). In essence, a 2-factor authentication for important functions.
> 
> Might be my failing memory
> 
> (From a security standpoint, though, that would make more sense than complete access to the car without the fob present.)


If anything, this is better security...

Keys can be stolen, copied, etc.

Of course the app/database can be hacked and in addition Tesla has an open API and there are third party apps; but still it feels safer (somehow).


----------



## orcinus

It's as safe, security wise, as your password for this forum.

As long as it does not rely on physical proximity, it can be easily intercepted, spoofed, etc.
In fact, even a fob is not safe from spoofing/relaying attacks, but at least the attacker needs to be in close proximity to you and your car (it's a two-person deal).


----------



## orcinus

Apparently, keyless driving is opt-in, so i might've actually remembered correctly:

http://www.csoonline.com/article/31...ploit-app-flaw-and-steal-a-tesla-model-s.html

(ignore the actual exploit part of the article - it has nothing to do with this)


----------



## SoFlaModel3

orcinus said:


> It's as safe, security wise, as your password for this forum.
> 
> As long as it does not rely on physical proximity, it can be easily intercepted, spoofed, etc.
> In fact, even a fob is not safe from spoofing/relaying attacks, but at least the attacker needs to be in close proximity to you and your car (it's a two-person deal).


This is one of those tricky areas where security and ease of use reach a crossroads.

You would think something as sensitive as accessing your car you would want two-factor authentication, but the ease of use side hates two-factor authentication.

With that API sitting out there (and I'm not sure about the particulars in the security model as I have not reviewed the documentation) -- there is a risk.

Honestly, a selling point against full self-driving is a concern over what would happen should Tesla be hacked and someone suddenly has control of your car remotely. It would be bad enough today that they could put my windows down remotely and cause some damage, but hacking into a FSD car is scary.


----------



## Badback

ModFather said:


> This is the Dawning of the Age of Aquarius, stop thinking in the past. This is the future! On 7/28/2017 the automotive world will be turned on its head! Everything will be different. You will see the oil companies reducing the price of gasoline and absorb a temporary profit loss to try to woo the consumer back to purchase an ICE car - "cheaper to purchase and drive than an EV and more convenient too!" They will play dirty. Service stations will start giving away S&H Green Stamps again (most of the youngsters on this Forum have no idea what I am talking about) to lure business. Wacko radio/television will circulate an EV conspiracy and 33% of Americans will believe it. And parking valets will have to adapt to new ways of accounting for customer key cards. What I am going to do is simply press "summon" and my car will find me!


Hey, maybe I can get a new set of dinnerware and daisy glasses.


----------



## Badback

orcinus said:


> Key cards are bad UX on so many levels.
> Sincerely hope that's not the actual, production car access control method.
> 
> Additionally, it is my understanding that on MS/MX the phone app only allows you access if the keyfob is in/near the car, for (obvious) security reasons. How would that work with a card? The car can't detect the presence of a card near or in it. You can only swipe/wave it near a reader.
> 
> On top of that, there would have to be at least 3 readers installed into the car (front left door, trunk, dashboard) for this to work in any sensible way, as opposed to having just one, central reader with a powered (active) fob. Ludicrous (not speed).


Wish we still had that red X key. Go back to that galaxy far far away. Tesla does things their own way.


----------



## Watts4me

ModFather said:


> You will see the oil companies reducing the price of gasoline and absorb a temporary profit loss to try to woo the consumer back to purchase an ICE car


I have believed this for some time and bet this will happen.


----------



## $ Trillion Musk

I would imagine members of the Tesla ride sharing network using personalized key cards to access the cars. There must be some convenience factor to this approach, e.g. not having to use a smartphone app to open a door, plus eliminate the need for a keyfob.

Tesla has thought of pretty much everything beyond the automobile itself - this keycard concept is one indicator. I anticipate a major disruption in the near future.


----------



## orcinus

My dad’s theory regarding the key cards:

It’s card shaped, but slightly fatter, is actually an active RFID fob (so range and behaviour similar to the fob, minus the buttons), has non user-removable rechargable battery, and is inductively recharged whenever in the car somewhere (central console / cup holders etc.).


----------



## dudeman

orcinus said:


> My dad's theory regarding the key cards:
> 
> It's card shaped, but slightly fatter, is actually an active RFID fob (so range and behaviour similar to the fob, minus the buttons), has non user-removable rechargable battery, and is inductively recharged whenever in the car somewhere (central console / cup holders etc.).


My guess is it's going to be a passive uhf rfid with about 3 feet range. We use this incase the phone is dead or giving key to someone else. No buttons on the key.

Just a wild guess.


----------



## orcinus

dudeman said:


> My guess is it's going to be a passive uhf rfid with about 3 feet range. We use this incase the phone is dead or giving key to someone else. No buttons on the key.
> 
> Just a wild guess.


3 ft and a passive UHF RFID would require a HUGE antenna loop.
I don't think that's feasible in a car (but what do i know).

Also, i believe that's for completely passive tags, which can be easily copied, which isn't suitable for a car.
You'd need a smart card chip for a car, and that requires more power to be beamed to the card to work (so shorter range).


----------



## EValuatED

orcinus said:


> 3 ft and a passive UHF RFID would require a HUGE antenna loop.
> I don't think that's feasible in a car (but what do i know).
> 
> Also, i believe that's for completely passive tags, which can be easily copied, which isn't suitable for a car.
> You'd need a smart card chip for a car, and that requires more power to be beamed to the card to work (so shorter range).


Elsewhere (i.e., not this forum) I saw someone speculating it might be BTLE. We'll see... in 5 days!


----------



## orcinus

Oh, now that's an interesting speculation.

For one, power usage is very low (it can work off lithium button cells for ages).
And second, and more importantly, that would mean you should be able to use your phone for *local* entry authentication (not over the cloud), as long as the app and the onboarding process are done securely enough (some kind of 2fa for the initial pairing - not talking about bluetooth pairing - that ensures you're in possession of the card, the car and the phone).


----------



## Iaeen

If these keycard rumors are true, I fully expect that the primary “key” is going to be your smartphone/watch. I could see them coming out with a Tesla app update that enables BLE pairing with the car, and hopefully also add Apple Watch support (and whatever android equivalent).

If you need to remotely open the trunk/vent the sunroof/turn on the AC/whatever, you’ll do it through the app. They’ll handle automatic locking and unlocking through BLE proximity detection similar to how Apple lets you authenticate into your Mac by simply wearing an Apple Watch.

I don’t expect you’ll use the keycard for anything other than emergency access if your phone/watch dies. It’ll be a simple passive RFID card that you’ll stick in the back pocket of your wallet and mostly forget about.


----------



## Iaeen

orcinus said:


> Either i'm crazy, or this changed at some point, then.
> Because i remember someone demonstrating phone app doesn't allow opening/closing/starting unless the key is present (near the car / in the car). In essence, a 2-factor authentication for important functions.
> 
> Might be my failing memory
> 
> (From a security standpoint, though, that would make more sense than complete access to the car without the fob present.)


Requiring the key to be within range of the car for any sort of app control doesn't make sense from either a practical or a security standpoint.

On one hand, you don't want to leave the fob in your car in order to enable remote control. That's as foolish as leaving your conventional car unattended with the door unlocked and the key in the ignition. Obviously that's less secure than app/cloud authentication which has a minuscule chance of being hacked.

On the other hand, if the key is only in range when you are in/near the car, there's no point in remote control with an app. It would be easier to use the actual controls on the car.


----------



## EValuatED

Iaeen said:


> Requiring the key to be within range of the car for any sort of app control doesn't make sense from either a practical or a security standpoint.
> 
> On one hand, you don't want to leave the fob in your car in order to enable remote control. That's as foolish as leaving your conventional car unattended with the door unlocked and the key in the ignition. Obviously that's less secure than app/cloud authentication which has a minuscule chance of being hacked.
> 
> On the other hand, if the key is only in range when you are in/near the car, there's no point in remote control with an app. It would be easier to use the actual controls on the car.


I'm thinking we've seen M3 keycards in use by Tesla employees -- instead of pairing their phone with a car or cars -- as they might be doing something in any of the RCs or early production cars, from time to time. So grab the keycard and go.

Queuing up conjecture on proximity unlocking & locking... Go!


----------



## orcinus

Iaeen said:


> Requiring the key to be within range of the car for any sort of app control doesn't make sense from either a practical or a security standpoint.
> 
> On one hand, you don't want to leave the fob in your car in order to enable remote control. That's as foolish as leaving your conventional car unattended with the door unlocked and the key in the ignition. Obviously that's less secure than app/cloud authentication which has a minuscule chance of being hacked.
> 
> On the other hand, if the key is only in range when you are in/near the car, there's no point in remote control with an app. It would be easier to use the actual controls on the car.


Rethink that a bit.
I've said "for critical functions" or something along those lines.

Would you really want to be able to allow moving your vehicle via an app, remotely, without having a way to prove the owner (holding the phone) is near the car? I wouldn't, as it's piss poor safety and security design.

Also, it's still easier to operate basic car functions via an app without entering the vehicle, while in its proximity, than actually opening the car, sitting inside it, waking it up, messing with the touchscreen etc.

I don't see how this makes it any less secure than just a single factor (i.e. the app). It's the exact opposite of less secure, in fact. The owner needs to be present for potentially damaging remote functions to work - as opposed to - we don't care where the owner and their fob are, let's just give anyone with the username and password a chance to mess with the car.


----------



## EValuatED

orcinus said:


> Rethink that a bit.
> I've said "for critical functions" or something along those lines.
> 
> Would you really want to be able to allow moving your vehicle via an app, remotely, without having a way to prove the owner (holding the phone) is near the car? I wouldn't, as it's piss poor safety and security design.
> 
> Also, it's still easier to operate basic car functions via an app without entering the vehicle, while in its proximity, than actually opening the car, sitting inside it, waking it up, messing with the touchscreen etc.
> 
> I don't see how this makes it any less secure than just a single factor (i.e. the app). It's the exact opposite of less secure, in fact. The owner needs to be present for potentially damaging remote functions to work - as opposed to - we don't care where the owner and their fob are, let's just give anyone with the username and password a chance to mess with the car.


Use case: Remote start "where permitted & safe" is a function of my Volt & Onstar, today.

Another: Remote disable is a function via Onstar.


----------



## orcinus

The difference is, Onstar is not a publicly accessible API.

Scratch that, apparently it is now, to developers.


----------



## orcinus

Food for thought:
https://www.troyhunt.com/controlling-vehicle-features-of-nissan/

Now, Nissan is a horrible example, because their API and the app appear to be made by a hundred dozen monkeys randomly mashing on keyboards (or so it seems), but be sure that an exploit being found for *any* system is never a question of if, but when. And of how prominent and frequent the system (in this case a car) is in everyday life.

So far, Teslas have been fairly lo-key, by virtue of being relatively uncommon.
This will change with Model 3.


----------



## EValuatED

orcinus said:


> Food for thought:
> https://www.troyhunt.com/controlling-vehicle-features-of-nissan/
> 
> Now, Nissan is a horrible example, because their API and the app appear to be made by a hundred dozen monkeys randomly mashing on keyboards (or so it seems), but be sure that an exploit being found for *any* system is never a question of if, but when. And of how prominent and frequent the system (in this case a car) is in everyday life.
> 
> So far, Teslas have been fairly lo-key, by virtue of being relatively uncommon.
> This will change with Model 3.


We may need to put the big red off button back in?


----------



## orcinus

EValuatED said:


> We may need to put the big red off button back in?


I'm always for big red buttons.


----------



## TrevP

There's plenty of evidence that the keycard is indeed real and going to happen. They have the fleet sharing thing happening in a few years so why not build in the capability into the car right from the beginning. Make it NFC compatible as well so we can use our mobile devices to authenticate...

Think about that...


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/890588175961395200


----------



## orcinus

You can already use them to authenticate, though.
And there’s been an Apple Watch app floating around for 2 years i think.

The real benefit would be that you could authenticate securely, and locally, which is nice.


----------



## dudeman

Key card is the one thing we can be sure about. Its nice but I am kinda disappointed that Doug had to take it out of his pockets, presumably, to open the car. It would be nice if you don't have to do that.


----------



## JWardell

Maybe he had to take it out because he had _multiple_ keycards in his pocket...


----------



## dudeman

JWardell said:


> Maybe he had to take it out because he had _multiple_ keycards in his pocket...


Even in that case, the car should still open without taking out key card because one of the multiple cards was a correct one.

Most likely it's a proximity issue. It has to be brought out and closer to someplace where there is a reader.

There are rumors of reader being on B pillar. Kinda makes sense, one hand to open door handle, other with key is on b pillar.


----------



## MelindaV

JWardell said:


> Maybe he had to take it out because he had _multiple_ keycards in his pocket...


or didn't want to sit down in the car with the card in his pocket and risk bending it


----------



## orcinus

Let’s hope so.
Passive RFID card is a seriously dumb idea.

Imagine fumbling around unlocking your trunk by swiping a card by the reader while holding groceries or a suitcase.

It’s so unwieldy and amateurish i seriously doubt Tesla would do that as the primary access control method.


----------



## ModFather

orcinus said:


> Let's hope so.
> Passive RFID card is a seriously dumb idea.
> 
> Imagine fumbling around unlocking your trunk by swiping a card by the reader while holding groceries or a suitcase.
> 
> It's so unwieldy and amateurish i seriously doubt Tesla would do that as the primary access control method.


Couldn't I just have the chip embedded under my skin? Seriously, I have other medical devices embedded subcutaneously. Or maybe a tattoo?


----------



## Iaeen

The only way for a keycard to make sense is for it to be passive RFID only. If you go through the trouble of putting active transmitters into it, you lose the cost savings and simplicity advantages of a keycard and just end up with a conventional fob in a worse form factor.

That’s why I believe the Tesla app is going to become the primary access control method for the car if these rumors are true. Tesla supplies an inexpensive RFID backup key, and we supply the hardware that we are already carrying around to act as the primary key. That saves Tesla money and saves all of us the effort of carrying another bulky item around in our pockets.

The only question in my mind about this is whether or not an iPhone/Android phone is going to allow a third party app in the background to consume enough resources to do all this effectively. Having to launch an app on your phone to establish a BLE (or whatever) connection every time you want to unlock the car would be just as terrible as an RFID only keycard as the primary access control.


----------



## Gabzqc

My honest belief is we will have the same functionality of the Model s and x key, but in a different form factor. A slightly thicker card shaped device, that will unlock the car when you approach it, can sit in your wallet or phone case all the time.... Simple really.


----------



## teslamcteslaface

If its true, I'll miss the car shape key. super cute!


----------



## garsh

orcinus said:


> Passive RFID card is a seriously dumb idea.


Please don't call people's ideas dumb.

Most people probably don't understand all of the limitations of passive RFID.
Instead, explain that it probably won't work to leave it in your pocket.
Explain that it needs to be close to the detector to become powered.


----------



## JWardell

dudeman said:


> Even in that case, the car should still open without taking out key card because one of the multiple cards was a correct one.


Generally multiple passive RFID cards interfere with each other. With two on the same side of my wallet, I have a lot of trouble scanning it on the bus/subway vs one on each side. And if you have a RFID-blocking wallet (or a big steel card bottle opener like mine), then anything near it is blocked. Active is a different story.



Iaeen said:


> The only way for a keycard to make sense is for it to be passive RFID only. If you go through the trouble of putting active transmitters into it, you lose the cost savings and simplicity advantages of a keycard and just end up with a conventional fob in a worse form factor.


I disagree. While a passive RFID card is certainly very cheap and the same size as a credit card, an active RFID card with a thin button battery only has to be the thickness of two credit cards, and can even have a few buttons. Still fits in your wallet. I would *MUCH* rather have this than any key or giant fob bouncing around in my pocket.


----------



## ModFather

JWardell said:


> I disagree. While a passive RFID card is certainly very cheap and the same size as a credit card, an active RFID card with a thin button battery only has to be the thickness of two credit cards, and can even have a few buttons. Still fits in your wallet. I would *MUCH* rather have this than any key or giant fob bouncing around in my pocket.


Thanks @TrevP for eliminating the "disagree" button. We now encourage people to have a civil discussion about why they disagree and we can all learn something.

Perhaps Doug took the key card out of his pocket in the video because it is one of the thick active RFID cards and would be "uncomfortable"  if he left it in his front pocket when he sat down!  This would be great for me since I use a "wallet style" smart phone cover that has a slot where I can keep a couple of credit cards if I wish, perfect for the RFID card. I have press button entry on all my casa doors with the goal that I want to eliminate all keys in my life. Yep, no more car keys for me!


----------



## JWardell

@ModFather I agree with the Disagree statement 

I think Tesla should pass out 3s to us forum members so we can give them very valuable feedback on this.


----------



## dudeman

orcinus said:


> Let's hope so.
> Passive RFID card is a seriously dumb idea.
> 
> Imagine fumbling around unlocking your trunk by swiping a card by the reader while holding groceries or a suitcase.
> 
> It's so unwieldy and amateurish i seriously doubt Tesla would do that as the primary access control method.


Agree. Its most likely going to be an active one. We will know in less than 6 hours.


----------



## Watts4me

I disagree x!


----------



## dudeman

dudeman said:


> Agree. Its most likely going to be an active one. We will know in less than 6 hours.


It's going to be "Seriously next level"


----------



## dudeman

dudeman said:


> It's going to be "Seriously next level"


"Kinda have to"


----------



## dudeman

dudeman said:


> "Kinda have to"


"You won't care"


----------



## orcinus

garsh said:


> Please don't call people's ideas dumb.
> 
> Most people probably don't understand all of the limitations of passive RFID.
> Instead, explain that it probably won't work to leave it in your pocket.
> Explain that it needs to be close to the detector to become powered.


Chill. I wasn't calling out anyone specific out.
I was calling passive RFID cards as primary means of access to a car a dumb approach, and elaborated why.

And i've explained the range issue before in this thread, as have others.

If you recall, someone even joked about butting against the trunk with the card in the pocket.
Sheesh, the closer the reveal, the more wound up everyone gets.


----------



## orcinus

ModFather said:


> Perhaps Doug took the key card out of his pocket in the video because it is one of the thick active RFID cards and would be "uncomfortable"  if he left it in his front pocket when he sat down!


It looked like it was still inside a thicker cardboard sleeve or something similar (like in other shots of it in the cup holder).
Sitting with it like that would've squashed it.

(Unless the "thick thing" we've been seeing is actually the card itself.)


----------



## Michel Zehnder

Now we know. Primary: App with Bluetooth Backup: Keycard with NFC


----------



## $ Trillion Musk

What happens if your phone is dead? Better keep a spare charging cable in your Model 3, or else!


----------



## garsh

Safe Daddy Driver said:


> What happens if your phone is dead?


Then you take the keycard out of your wallet and use that.


----------



## $ Trillion Musk

garsh said:


> Then you take the keycard out of your wallet and use that.


Ok so valet mode isn't so bad either with capping the top speed at 70 mph. http://www.teslarati.com/depth-look-valet-mode-tesla-model-s/

Yeah that works for me.


----------



## BellevueEd

Since we're now told there will NOT be key fobs for our pride and joys (prides and joy??), and will have to use an app on our smart phones as our normal way of entering our chariot...will that include those of us who use a smart phone with a modern interface, a Windows phone? I don't want to be forced to switch my SIM card to an ios or Android dinosaur just to take my throne seat. Will we be able to put the NFC info on our phones (Windows included) to unlock our shiny red machine?


----------



## Yu Sun

Now we know Model 3 comes with "creditcard" size key card instead of mini car model key fob. I have no problem with lock/unlock and starting the car. Then how to open frunk and trunk without entering the car and using the center console?

My guess there could be some kind of sense


----------



## Iaeen

I'm sure there will be a button to release the latch on the outside of the trunk just like every other car out there. You will be able to pop the trunk from the Tesla app too if you need to do it from a distance.


----------



## Jakesthree

BellevueEd said:


> Since we're now told there will NOT be key fobs for our pride and joys (prides and joy??), and will have to use an app on our smart phones as our normal way of entering our chariot...will that include those of us who use a smart phone with a modern interface, a Windows phone? I don't want to be forced to switch my SIM card to an ios or Android dinosaur just to take my throne seat. Will we be able to put the NFC info on our phones (Windows included) to unlock our shiny red machine?


I'm not sure if the Tesla app is compatible with Windows but if it is then all you need is Bluetooth on your phone.


----------



## Robert Pickel

At the Model 3 delivery event, we started to learn that there is no fob, just a RFID credit card to swipe along the side of the door, or use your Tesla app on the cellphone to gain access. Excuse me, but isn't that a bit old technology or just plain inconvenient? What if your hands are full? What if it's raining and you need to access your car quickly? 

I rented a low-end Chevy Cruz the other day. It had a fob. I never had to take it out of my pocket. Walk up, door unlocks with a touch of the handle, hop in, start ICE and drive away--no card, no phone. This credit card/phone app is going to be one major pain in the trunk! I'm amazed that this is Tesla's answer to security. Do you get a fob with the upgrade package? Very disappointing from what I've seen so far.


----------



## SoFlaModel3

Yu Sun said:


> Now we know Model 3 comes with "creditcard" size key card instead of mini car model key fob. I have no problem with lock/unlock and starting the car. Then how to open frunk and trunk without entering the car and using the center console?
> 
> My guess there could be some kind of sense


That's a very good question.

So of course the primary "key" is the app on your smart phone. The credit card is more or less your backup. There is the chance it may only open the doors.

In my car when I get close to the trunk with the key, it beeps. After 3 beeps the trunk pops open. Not sure if Model 3 has that...


----------



## Yu Sun

From Apps could be a good way to compensate, I don't think using button near the outside of trunk is good idea, I hated it everytime when my hands are full.


----------



## SoFlaModel3

Robert Pickel said:


> At the Model 3 delivery event, we started to learn that there is no fob, just a RFID credit card to swipe along the side of the door, or use your Tesla app on the cellphone to gain access. Excuse me, but isn't that a bit old technology or just plain inconvenient? What if your hands are full? What if it's raining and you need to access your car quickly?
> 
> I rented a low-end Chevy Cruz the other day. It had a fob. I never had to take it out of my pocket. Walk up, door unlocks with a touch of the handle, hop in, start ICE and drive away--no card, no phone. This credit card/phone app is going to be one major pain in the trunk! I'm amazed that this is Tesla's answer to security. Do you get a fob with the upgrade package? Very disappointing from what I've seen so far.


No fob.

Card or your phone.

Personally I think it's great as I hate bulky keys!!


----------



## SoFlaModel3

Yu Sun said:


> From Apps could be a good way to compensate, I don't think using button near the outside of trunk is good idea, I hated it everytime when my hands are full.


The app is your answer. Not to mention you will pre cool/heat from the app so you will already have it out.


----------



## Yu Sun

Even the people from Tesla is not sure if the card in the pocket would work or not, Which means there is 50% chance it would work.


----------



## MelindaV

we had three separate keycard/fob threads that have been merged together - so there likely is some dis-joined conversations


----------



## SoFlaModel3

Yu Sun said:


> Even the people from Tesla is not sure if the card in the pocket would work or not, Which means there is 50% chance it would work.


That's one of the better test drive videos. The interior looks amazing!!


----------



## orcinus

BellevueEd said:


> Since we're now told there will NOT be key fobs for our pride and joys (prides and joy??), and will have to use an app on our smart phones as our normal way of entering our chariot...will that include those of us who use a smart phone with a modern interface, a Windows phone? I don't want to be forced to switch my SIM card to an ios or Android dinosaur just to take my throne seat. Will we be able to put the NFC info on our phones (Windows included) to unlock our shiny red machine?


Almost certainly not, as Windows Phone has been discontinued.


----------



## MelindaV

Robert Pickel said:


> At the Model 3 delivery event, we started to learn that there is no fob, just a RFID credit card to swipe along the side of the door, or use your Tesla app on the cellphone to gain access. Excuse me, but isn't that a bit old technology or just plain inconvenient? What if your hands are full? What if it's raining and you need to access your car quickly?
> 
> I rented a low-end Chevy Cruz the other day. It had a fob. I never had to take it out of my pocket. Walk up, door unlocks with a touch of the handle, hop in, start ICE and drive away--no card, no phone. This credit card/phone app is going to be one major pain in the trunk! I'm amazed that this is Tesla's answer to security. Do you get a fob with the upgrade package? Very disappointing from what I've seen so far.


the phone app works by bluetooth - just like the current Teslas... if you have it set up to recognize your phone/app, the car will automatically unlock when you approach and lock when you walk away. you will not need to get the phone out, open the app and press an unlock button on the screen.


----------



## Iaeen

Robert Pickel said:


> At the Model 3 delivery event, we started to learn that there is no fob, just a RFID credit card to swipe along the side of the door, or use your Tesla app on the cellphone to gain access. Excuse me, but isn't that a bit old technology or just plain inconvenient? What if your hands are full? What if it's raining and you need to access your car quickly?
> 
> I rented a low-end Chevy Cruz the other day. It had a fob. I never had to take it out of my pocket. Walk up, door unlocks with a touch of the handle, hop in, start ICE and drive away--no card, no phone. This credit card/phone app is going to be one major pain in the trunk! I'm amazed that this is Tesla's answer to security. Do you get a fob with the upgrade package? Very disappointing from what I've seen so far.


Why does everyone always ask about your hands being full? How does fumbling around with a fob make that situation better?

The Model 3 is going to unlock as you approach it just like the Model S or any other car with some sort of smart entry feature. The only difference is that the care will detect your smartphone with the paired Tesla app rather than a bulky fob.


----------



## John

BellevueEd said:


> will that include those of us who use a smart phone with a modern interface, a Windows phone? ?


Twice I have given talks to large groups about my company's products and someone has stood up and asked, "When will you have a Windows Phone version?" Both times, it was just one person in the audience. Both people (on different coasts of the US) worked for the same employer.

Microsoft.

Is that the case here, too?


----------



## MelindaV

John said:


> Twice I have given talks to large groups about my company's products and someone has stood up and asked, "When will you have Windows Phone version?" Both times, it was just one person in the audience. Both people (on different coasts of the US) worked for the same employer.
> 
> Microsoft.
> 
> Is that the case here, too?


being from Bellevue, that was what I was going to ask too but you beat me to it


----------



## orcinus

MelindaV said:


> the phone app works by bluetooth - just like the current Teslas... if you have it set up to recognize your phone/app, the car will automatically unlock when you approach and lock when you walk away. you will not need to get the phone out, open the app and press an unlock button on the screen.


Can you verify if it works without the app installed, i.e. merely by pairing with a phone?
If so, that's a *gaping* security hole, as it's fairly easy to eavesdrop and spoof a device's Bluetooth MAC address, encryption keys and other identifying features.

See this for an exploit example:
https://www.usenix.org/conference/woot13/workshop-program/presentation/ryan


----------



## orcinus

Iaeen said:


> Why does everyone always ask about your hands being full? How does fumbling around with a fob make that situation better?
> 
> The Model 3 is going to unlock as you approach it just like the Model S or any other car with some sort of smart entry feature. The only difference is that the care will detect your smartphone with the paired Tesla app rather than a bulky fob.


It will unlock as you approach *with a phone*, but not with a card.
That's why everyone keeps mentioning the fob.


----------



## Iaeen

orcinus said:


> Can you verify if it works without the app installed, i.e. merely by pairing with a phone?
> If so, that's a *gaping* security hole, as it's fairly easy to eavesdrop and spoof a device's Bluetooth MAC address, encryption keys and other identifying features.
> 
> See this for an exploit example:
> https://www.usenix.org/conference/woot13/workshop-program/presentation/ryan


Of course it's going to require a Tesla app that is logged into the correct account... Quit being ridiculous; Tesla's software developers aren't idiots.


----------



## MelindaV

orcinus said:


> Can you verify if it works without the app installed, i.e. merely by pairing with a phone?
> If so, that's a *gaping* security hole, as it's fairly easy to eavesdrop and spoof a device's Bluetooth MAC address, encryption keys and other identifying features.
> 
> See this for an exploit example:
> https://www.usenix.org/conference/woot13/workshop-program/presentation/ryan


no technical knowledge of it, but am sure it will require you have the app installed - not just have been previously paired with your bluetooth (as like an audio device). to be used to access your car. that is how the vehicle knows you have rights to access it, and not the friend you let sync their BT that one weekend 6 months earlier. the app in encrypted to your account login.


----------



## BellevueEd

MelindaV said:


> we had three separate keycard/fob threads that have been merged together - so there likely is some dis-joined conversations


Agreed. I can't rationally see that the use of a smart phone would be the main way to enter one's vehicle. RFID, NFC, maybe. Shouldn't have to take a gadget out of your pocket, or wherever, to enter and start the vehicle.


----------



## SoFlaModel3

BellevueEd said:


> Agreed. I can't rationally see that the use of a smart phone would be the main way to enter one's vehicle. RFID, NFC, maybe. Shouldn't have to take a gadget out of your pocket, or wherever, to enter and start the vehicle.


I disagree. I would want the phone to be "unlocked" for it to open and start my car.


----------



## garsh

John said:


> Twice I have given talks to large groups about my company's products and someone has stood up and asked, "When will you have a Windows Phone version?" Both times, it was just one person in the audience. Both people (on different coasts of the US) worked for the same employer.
> 
> Microsoft.
> 
> Is that the case here, too?


I'm going to guess that @BellevueEd is "retired from Microsoft", since he wasn't aware that Microsoft recently cancelled Windows Phone.


----------



## tivoboy

What is amazing to me is that I was testing this very thing over 20 years ago with Mercedes. Different cards for different ppl in the household, and when you got up to the car, all settings would automatically change to the card owner.. including destination by day of week. Why on earth it took 20 years for this sort of thing to make it somewhat more mainstream really surprises me.

I'm pretty sure the card will operated totally independent of any paired smartphone. It will be used for valid type of users.


----------



## John

SoFlaModel3 said:


> I disagree. I would want the phone to be "unlocked" for it to open and start my car.


I have gotten VERY used to-since 2009-just walking up to my car, pulling open the door (it unlocks on touch), getting in, and pressing START. I would not want to futz around with my phone. And I have written mobile apps, it's not like I dislike smartphones or anything.

The advantages to "no key fob" are plain to me:
1. No key to lose and pay $250 to replace
2. No worry that you'll lose your last key and have to replace the car's security board (>$1K)
3. Extra keys are free
4. Software grantable and revokable (i.e. temporary) keys are possible

I'll be interested to know how easily access can be granted to someone via, say, email, or if they have to be present (e.g. to scan a Q-code or something).


----------



## mig

Another niche problem with key fobs is the surfer/swimmer problem. When I used to swim at the lake I could hide my key in a magnetic holder on the car itself somewhere. With the advent of keyless entry, that doesn't work, you need to hide the thing far away or keep it on you in a drybag or something.

The key card is actually interesting in this scenario because it seems to have more limited range.

I also tend to lock my phone in my car when swimming. I wonder if that will even be possible?


----------



## mig

mig said:


> I also tend to lock my phone in my car when swimming. I wonder if that will even be possible?


Hm, thought of an answer to my own question. Disable BT or turn off the phone, duh.


----------



## tivoboy

mig said:


> Another niche problem with key fobs is the surfer/swimmer problem. When I used to swim at the lake I could hide my key in a magnetic holder on the car itself somewhere. With the advent of keyless entry, that doesn't work, you need to hide the thing far away or keep it on you in a drybag or something.
> 
> The key card is actually interesting in this scenario because it seems to have more limited range.
> 
> I also tend to lock my phone in my car when swimming. I wonder if that will even be possible?


one could probably just put the key card in a tin foil slip (mine did) and put it in whatever hiding spot you like. As for the phone, if off I wouldn't imagine it would be a problem to leave it in the car.

RFid broadcast is very close proximity, it will probably be a swipe on the windscreen for entry, not just near proximity.


----------



## orcinus

Iaeen said:


> Of course it's going to require a Tesla app that is logged into the correct account... Quit being ridiculous; Tesla's software developers aren't idiots.


Never hurts to check.
I've seen a lot of non-idiots do stupid things.

For what its worth, it's not that big of a reach for someone to use no app, as Bluetooth standard does describe a profile meant for secure authentication. (It just so happens that it's not a very secure implementation.)

You didn't think i was expecting Tesla to just use "naked" device pairing, i hope.


----------



## Robert Pickel

Maybe it's too soon to know for sure. The one video I saw of a test rider getting into a Mod3 at the distribution, when he was shown the "key card," asked if it had to remain in some little tray in the console for the car to run, was told by the driver that he had no idea.

So, can the key card remain in one's wallet and function like a fob, and not have to be taken out, swiped on the door and placed into some console tray for the car to operate? And what happens when old fumblefingers drops said card down between the console and the seat?


----------



## orcinus

In one of the videos, when asked outright whether the key card is swipe only, the driver said "i'm not sure if production cars will have only that, we were working on multiple keyless entry systems" (not direct quote, but i think fairly close to it).

If it was just app and the keycard, i think he'd say "yes, key card is the fallback, but we want you to use your phone".

This might mean there will be other options (BLE fob, perhaps) if people end up not warming up to this as much as they hoped.


----------



## SoFlaModel3

John said:


> I have gotten VERY used to-since 2009-just walking up to my car, pulling open the door (it unlocks on touch), getting in, and pressing START. I would not want to futz around with my phone. And I have written mobile apps, it's not like I dislike smartphones or anything.
> 
> The advantages to "no key fob" are plain to me:
> 1. No key to lose and pay $250 to replace
> 2. No worry that you'll lose your last key and have to replace the car's security board (>$1K)
> 3. Extra keys are free
> 4. Software grantable and revokable (i.e. temporary) keys are possible
> 
> I'll be interested to know how easily access can be granted to someone via, say, email, or if they have to be present (e.g. to scan a Q-code or something).


I'm with you as similar I have had walk up to the car, touch the handle, get in, press start and never touch the key. This will be a change. Sadly I'm glued to my phone so it's in my hands anyway 

I have an Apple Watch and never wear it. If Tesla supports Apple Watch, I may be inclined to wear it!


----------



## John

To be clear, I don't think you have to take your phone out of your pocket. I think we can just walk up and drive.
Not like I definitely know, I'm just saying that's how I'm guessing it works.


----------



## MelindaV

John said:


> To be clear, I don't think you have to take your phone out of your pocket. I think we can just walk up and drive.
> Not like I definitely know, I'm just saying that's how I'm guessing it works.


that is how it works on the current cars


----------



## SoFlaModel3

John said:


> To be clear, I don't think you have to take your phone out of your pocket. I think we can just walk up and drive.
> Not like I definitely know, I'm just saying that's how I'm guessing it works.


Well... I can't wait to see!


----------



## Robert Pickel

Here's a bit more on this topic from those who know more about it...

http://www.teslarati.com/tesla-model-3-keycard-smartphone-access-via-bluetooth/


----------



## Mike

Just entering this thread now, sorry if already asked and answered.

The no key fob approach is the only thing on this car that I'm not happy with, mostly because it is/will be a totally new operating procedure for me.....and I don't own a smart phone (please keep laughing to a minimum)

On my Prius, the key fob stays in my pocket at all times.

On my future Model 3, without a smart phone (I know, I know), how would I open and operate the vehicle with the card?

Would I have to always pull the card out of my wallet or will it function staying in my wallet?

Signed: old fart who pays $10.57 a month (all in) for his ancient flip phone


----------



## EValuatED

Safe Daddy Driver said:


> What happens if your phone is dead? Better keep a spare charging cable in your Model 3, or else!


BTW my daughter gasped when I read your post out loud. "His phone died???"


----------



## MarkB

It's a change, for sure. Our last few vehicles use fobs. We don't even think about them. I sometimes get in my car and am reminded that I don't have my fob (and keys!). Not so much an issue when I'm leaving home (usually occurs when my wife and I are leaving at same time, and she locks up) as it would be if it occurred when I was leaving work (and would get home without keys!).

Card is cool, but I've been on a wallet thinning exercise of late. No reward cards that I can't use via an app, etc. This would be a must-carry card. 

Any thoughts to whether a more traditional fob can and will be available as an accessory?


----------



## Robert Pickel

The most amazing thing about the Teslarati article, states this is "a move that allows the company to further cut costs on Model 3 production." I wonder why a $15K Chevy Cruz can support an excellent fob entry/starting system and a $35K to $60K Tesla 3 can't, even as part of the premium upgrade.


----------



## MarkB

Robert Pickel said:


> The most amazing thing about the Teslarati article, states this is "a move that allows the company to further cut costs on Model 3 production." I wonder why a $15K Chevy Cruz can support an excellent fob entry/starting system and a $35K to $60K Tesla 3 can't, even as part of the premium upgrade.


It's a change, for sure.

Why spend $$ (that's marked up to $$$$ by the time WE purchase the product) on something that has well passed it's best before date?

We won't know for a number of years whether or not it was a good idea or not. Just like when Apple ditched the floppy, and more recently the headphone jack. 

Time will tell.


----------



## SoFlaModel3

MarkB said:


> Any thoughts to whether a more traditional fob can and will be available as an accessory?


It doesn't look that way.



Robert Pickel said:


> The most amazing thing about the Teslarati article, states this is "a move that allows the company to further cut costs on Model 3 production." I wonder why a $15K Chevy Cruz can support an excellent fob entry/starting system and a $35K to $60K Tesla 3 can't, even as part of the premium upgrade.


Who says they did it to cut costs? I think this somehow plays into the ride sharing vision more than saving a little money.


----------



## Robert Pickel

It could be an excellent advance, if the range on the card permitted it to remain in one's wallet or purse and still open the door and start the car. Beats a fob, hands down. But, If this feature means owners have to fish out a card from their wallet/purse and leave it in the console while they drive, and then remember to take it with them (not dropping it into that "black hole" between the console and the seat) when they get out, it could be a real nuisance. OK, it's a backup to the smartphone. Fine, but do you have to get your phone out, unlock it, open an app, etc. each time you want to enter your car? This is a small thing, but small things have a way of becoming real problems, over time. Awaiting more details...


----------



## Robert Pickel

SoFlaModel3 said:


> It doesn't look that way.
> 
> Who says they did it to cut costs? I think this somehow plays into the ride sharing vision more than saving a little money.


"Ride sharing vision?" Not in my $50-$60K car! This should be an option, not a "one size fits all" decree.


----------



## Spinball

Robert Pickel said:


> Fine, but do you have to get your phone out, unlock it, open an app, etc. each time you want to enter your car? This is a small thing, but small things have a way of becoming real problems, over time. Awaiting more details...


Why not just read the posts in this very thread that say you don't have to take your phone out of your pocket?


----------



## Phil Kulak

MelindaV said:


> the phone app works by bluetooth - just like the current Teslas... if you have it set up to recognize your phone/app, the car will automatically unlock when you approach and lock when you walk away. you will not need to get the phone out, open the app and press an unlock button on the screen.


So, what if I sleep 20 feet away from my car, well within Bluetooth range? Will it just never lock?


----------



## Michel Zehnder

Phil Kulak said:


> So, what if I sleep 20 feet away from my car, well within Bluetooth range? Will it just never lock?


Disable BT on your phone... ?
I <guess> there's also the possibility to lock it using the app


----------



## $ Trillion Musk

Here's what I found out after test driving the Model X for 24 hours: Teslas lock themselves as you walk away. How far must you be? That I'm not sure.


----------



## Michel Zehnder

Safe Daddy Driver said:


> Here's what I found out after test driving the Model X for 24 hours: Teslas lock themselves as you walk away. How far must you be? That I'm not sure.


Keyfob and Phone use different technology, so this is not really a representation of the Model 3 capabilities.


----------



## SoFlaModel3

Robert Pickel said:


> "Ride sharing vision?" Not in my $50-$60K car! This should be an option, not a "one size fits all" decree.


I could be wrong. Just a thought. My car certainly won't be shared. I won't even let family and friends drive it 

I say we give it a chance and hold comment until we've officially seen how it works. It looks like most of the test drivers were fuzzy on the details or they had ideas but weren't sure where Tesla ended on it.


----------



## Michel Zehnder

SoFlaModel3 said:


> I could be wrong. Just a thought. My car certainly won't be shared. I won't even let family and friends drive it
> 
> I say we give it a chance and hold comment until we've officially seen how it works. It looks like most of the test drivers were fuzzy on the details or they had ideas but weren't sure where Tesla ended on it.


Sounds reasonable. And maybe they even still provide a FOB if you want one... who knows.


----------



## Diamond.g

Michel Zehnder said:


> Keyfob and Phone use different technology, so this is not really a representation of the Model 3 capabilities.


I think the Model X also uses Bluetooth LE for the FOB so it should be similar when using a phone with Model 3. It appears the Model S is the odd man out.


----------



## Ct200h

From the description the card will need to be in very close proximity to a specific area on the B pillar to gain access to the car. This is indicative of a passive system with an rfid type chip possibly. The adavatage is the card needs no internal battery. It's use is intended for alternate drivers, service , valet , emergency.

The Bluetooth phone setup will sense your approach as you are used to with most current smart key systems today.


----------



## Robert Pickel

SoFlaModel3 said:


> I say we give it a chance and hold comment until we've officially seen how it works. It looks like most of the test drivers were fuzzy on the details or they had ideas but weren't sure where Tesla ended on it.


Excellent comment, SoFlaModel3. Thanks all for your input and perspectives.


----------



## orcinus

SoFlaModel3 said:


> It doesn't look that way.


Actually, there's still a chance, as one of the drivers in one of the event videos said something that might suggest there will be other options for keyless entry later on.



SoFlaModel3 said:


> Who says they did it to cut costs? I think this somehow plays into the ride sharing vision more than saving a little money.


I don't see how having a fob for people who want it kills off the ride sharing vision, though.


----------



## SoFlaModel3

orcinus said:


> Actually, there's still a chance, as one of the drivers in one of the event videos said something that might suggest there will be other options for keyless entry later on.
> 
> ---
> 
> I don't see how having a fob for people who want it kills off the ride sharing vision, though.


Agreed on both fronts. On the first, it was clear the driver was fuzzy and there must have been quite a few things they tested with. Who knows, down the road maybe you can buy a fob if you want one.

Agree there as well, just thinking outside the box 

At the end of the day I'm thrilled. My goal was to exclusively use the phone/app to precool the car and unlock on approach. My key would be a backup. Now that the key is flat and goes in my wallet that makes me very happy!

The scale model key fob does have some cool factor, but I'm happier removing something bulky from my pocket!


----------



## Dan Detweiler

Personally, I am kind of excited by the whole key card thing. What I think is going to be more important is the cell phone interface and how that will work. The key card is designed as a backup, so to me, the more important information is how the whole phone thing is going to work.

Dan


----------



## Mike

MarkB said:


> Card is cool, but I've been on a wallet thinning exercise of late. No reward cards that I can't use via an app, etc. This would be a must-carry card.


In my situation, if this proposed card had a one (1) meter range, then the card could stay in the wallet which would stay in my pocket......


----------



## Mike

MarkB said:


> It's a change, for sure.
> 
> Why spend $$ (that's marked up to $$$$ by the time WE purchase the product) on something that has well passed it's best before date?
> 
> We won't know for a number of years whether or not it was a good idea or not. Just like when Apple ditched the floppy, and more recently the headphone jack.
> 
> Time will tell.


If the card had a range longer than being proposed, then it could stay in the wallet in my pocket. Right now, it seems that if one wants to use the card, it must be very close to the B pillar sensor.


----------



## Michel Zehnder

The card is NFC based AFAIK and has a very limited range, have a look at the picture:

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/891427312125722624


----------



## ModFather

SoFlaModel3 said:


> The scale model key fob does have some cool factor, but I'm happier removing something bulky from my pocket!


....................................


----------



## Thomas Mikl

As the car auto-unlocks when I get close with my phone I am happy. No more car keys is excellent.


----------



## orcinus

I still think that a credit-card-shaped, but not credit-card-thick fob, with active radio (BLE is fine, and can be scaled to that form factor) would’ve been a better solution (it would satisfy a broader range of people, with no compromise apart from price, which i don’t think is the issue).

We’ll see what the future brings.


----------



## Badback

orcinus said:


> Can you verify if it works without the app installed, i.e. merely by pairing with a phone?
> If so, that's a *gaping* security hole, as it's fairly easy to eavesdrop and spoof a device's Bluetooth MAC address, encryption keys and other identifying features.
> 
> See this for an exploit example:
> https://www.usenix.org/conference/woot13/workshop-program/presentation/ryan


So, you think that only one guy in Zagreb knows this and that Tesla programmers live in a cave in Mongolia?


----------



## orcinus

Badback said:


> So, you think that only one guy in Zagreb knows this and that Tesla programmers live in a cave in Mongolia?


No, but i think that Tesla programmers might deem it an acceptable risk, while one guy in Zagreb might not 

Nothing is ever perfectly secure.
It's always a matter of acceptable risk.

Geography doesn't play much into it (well, it kinda does, not all areas of the world have the same car theft figures, i guess, but let's not get into it).


----------



## Topher

orcinus said:


> No, but i think that Tesla programmers might deem it an acceptable risk, while one guy in Zagreb might not


Pretty sure Elon is more paranoid about security than you are. If for no other reason than he stewards 100,000s of Tesla, and you steward one.

Listen to what he says to the governor's convention: 




Thank you kindly.


----------



## orcinus

Yeah, listened to that already.
And i have no doubt he's more paranoid.

But the point is, Elon (and any company, really) does risk analysis in terms of numbers of incidents, multiplied by the impact. If something is deemed a non-frequent failure (occasional car jacking, vs. fleet takeover), it'll be very low on the ladder, no matter how damaging to "that one guy".

On top of that, i'm buying a car, Elon's not buying me one.
I know there's a certain cultural and economical gap between here and there (US), and that (even here) there's people who change cars like they change socks. And that $35k might not seem like much to a lot of you.

But *I* want to be completely sure and convinced about any misgiving, doubt, nook and cranny of during the decision making process, before i pull the trigger.
"They know better than you, so relax" doesn't cut it for me, not even for way cheaper things.

*PS:* It doesn't help that i'm an early adopter and tend to somehow always come across the worst bugs, production issues, design flaws etc. in all kinds of software and hardware, on daily basis.


----------



## Topher

orcinus said:


> If something is deemed a non-frequent failure (occasional car jacking, vs. fleet takeover), it'll be very low on the ladder, no matter how damaging to "that one guy".


But what you posited would be a massively frequent failure.



orcinus said:


> And that $35k might not seem like much to a lot of you.


Nope, you can't play the poor card with me.



orcinus said:


> "They know better than you, so relax"


Which isn't what I said. They have not only skilled people well versed in security issues, but knowledge of the workings of the car that you and I don't. I worked on software security of banks for years, and I don't feel competent to judge without a lot more information. But I am not even telling you to relax, I am telling you not to postulate that they would be making kindergarden mistakes. If you think they have made a fundamental security error, contact THEM privately.

Thank you kindly.


----------



## ModFather

orcinus said:


> No, but i think that Tesla programmers might deem it an acceptable risk, while one guy in Zagreb might not
> 
> Nothing is ever perfectly secure.
> It's always a matter of acceptable risk


Everything in life is risk management. At this time, I am okay with TESLA's system but I will be the first to admit I am relatively ignorant on these security issues. You may have a lower tolerance for risk in this specific regard. I would encourage you to do whatever you think is best for you to manage that risk to an acceptable level for you. But I don't think it is realistic that TESLA will change their system because one guy on the Internet doesn't feel comfortable with it.


----------



## orcinus

ModFather said:


> Everything in life is risk management. At this time, I am okay with TESLA's system but I will be the first to admit I am relatively ignorant on these security issues. You may have a lower tolerance for risk in this specific regard. I would encourage you to do whatever you think is best for you to manage that risk to an acceptable level for you. But I don't think it is realistic that TESLA will change their system because one guy on the Internet doesn't feel comfortable with it.


And i'm not saying they should be.
I'm commenting on the system, and asking for clarifications on its workings.

What i'm getting in return are veiled insults and condescension.


----------



## orcinus

For what it's worth, "regular" 315/433 MHz fobs are actually way less secure than BLE.
The difference is, they're usually proprietary, and not based on ubiquitous tech.

I've always liked security through obscurity as a security strategy (well, as part of it), so switching to something like BLE (of all things) touches a nerve.

I realize i'm likely overreacting right now, but my original post was very far from an overreaction.
I'm overreacting now, as a direct result of the response it got.


----------



## ModFather

orcinus said:


> And i'm not saying they should be.
> I'm commenting on the system, and asking for clarifications on its workings.


M3OC is not a good place to get clarification on how it works, since nobody here really knows. I doubt that TESLA themselves would be willing to share that info with you either. In my opinion that would be a security breach. As far as commenting on the system, please keep commenting because I find it interesting, but realize that everyone may not agree with your comments and some are better at discussion than others.



> What i'm getting in return are veiled insults and condescension.


I hope you don't think that I'm insulting you or being condescending. I know for a fact that you could beat the shinola out of me both physically and intellectually!


----------



## ModFather

orcinus said:


> I've always liked security through obscurity as a security strategy


What on earth is 'obscure security'? Never heard of it but the concept sounds intriguing. How does it work and how can I make it work for me?

EDIT: Okay I just Googled it to get some of the basics of the concept. Interesting! I see that it is quite controversial as a concept because overt secrecy tends to garner the most interest from hackers who consider it a challenge to prove they are smarter than the secret keepers and therefore more vulnerable to unwanted intrusion. Interesting.


----------



## orcinus

ModFather said:


> TOO is not a good place to get clarification on how it works, since nobody here really knows.


And that's fine - that's what speculation and discussion are for.
"How dare you suggest something so stupid" (heavily paraphrased) is neither, though.

I know i'm at fault too, calling passive RFID card "a stupid idea", but that honestly wasn't directed at anyone, nor anyone's opinion - it was simply me, observing that Tesla's solution is awkward, back when i thought that was the primary method of accessing the car (before local phone access via BLE was mentioned).



ModFather said:


> I hope you don't think that I'm insulting you or being condescending. I know for a fact that you could beat the shinola out of me both physically and intellectually!


I doubt that. But no, i don't think i've ever seen you being insulting or condescending anywhere on this forum.


----------



## orcinus

ModFather said:


> What on earth is 'obscure security'? Never heard of it but the concept sounds intriguing. How does it work and how can I make it work for me?


The idea of security through obscurity is that less off-the-shelf, ubiquitous standards and solutions you use to protect a system, the lower the frequency of the attacks, as no one really wants to invest in researching and exploiting a proprietary system, when there's plenty of systems out there that adhere to standards (with well documented flaws and exploits).

It's like living in a street with all Yale locks, in the only house that has this for its key:








... and your door happens to be opening like this:






(A very bad analogy from a person who's very bad at analogies.)


----------



## orcinus

ModFather said:


> EDIT: Okay I just Googled it to get some of the basics of the concept. Interesting! I see that it is quite controversial as a concept because overt secrecy tends to garner the most interest from hackers who consider it a challenge to prove they are smarter than the secret keepers and therefore more vulnerable to unwanted intrusion. Interesting.


Yeah, that's the downside.
You get less attacks, but the ones you get are from more competent (and persistent) attackers.


----------



## SoFlaModel3

So as I have gone back and rewatched some test drive videos you seem to consistently hear the driver talk about the key card and suggest it has a special spot in the center console. The Bloomberg article says the same. 

If that's the case it really suggests the key card is a backup or for valet and your phone is your everyday.

I'm ok with this, but I can see people not liking that.

Curious to see if that's truly accurate. I'm going to keep the card in my wallet, but getting it out of my wallet and placing it into a certain spot in the car would be odd to me.


----------



## orcinus

SoFlaModel3 said:


> So as I have gone back and rewatched some test drive videos you seem to consistently hear the driver talk about the key card and suggest it has a special spot in the center console. The Bloomberg article says the same.
> 
> If that's the case it really suggests the key card is a backup or for valet and your phone is your everyday.
> 
> I'm ok with this, but I can see people not liking that.
> 
> Curious to see if that's truly accurate. I'm going to keep the card in my wallet, but getting it out of my wallet and placing it into a certain spot in the car would be odd to me.


I don't think it has to be in the special spot all the time, just when you turn on the car (or maybe not even then, maybe just once, upon entering).

In one of the videos, one of the passengers (they all seemed a bit tipsy, and annoyed the heck out of the driver) managed to drop the card between the seats, and kept looking for it with his phone's flash on for the better part of the video.

So you could just plop the card there (or maybe the whole wallet - we still need to see how short the short range is) as you enter, and immediately put it back in your pocket (if you don't feel like using the phone, that is).

It also seemed like all the drivers were pretty confused by the card, almost as if they've been using something else up until that point (a BLE fob, perhaps).


----------



## SoFlaModel3

orcinus said:


> I don't think it has to be in the special spot all the time, just when you turn on the car (or maybe not even then, maybe just once, upon entering).
> 
> In one of the videos, one of the passengers (they all seemed a bit tipsy, and annoyed the heck out of the driver) managed to drop the card between the seats, and kept looking for it with his phone's flash on for the better part of the video.
> 
> So you could just plop the card there (or maybe the whole wallet - we still need to see how short the short range is) as you enter, and immediately put it back in your pocket (if you don't feel like using the phone, that is).
> 
> It also seemed like all the drivers were pretty confused by the card, almost as if they've been using something else up until that point (a BLE fob, perhaps).


Agree on both good points.

I noticed the drivers not being sure about which technology they ended up with on the cards.

I didn't see the video with someone dropping the card, but since you mentioned it I did see a video with the card being passed around suggesting at most it needs to be in a spot for the car to be turned on. Perhaps there is a sense in the console and the card has to be close to it for the car to turn on.


----------



## orcinus

SoFlaModel3 said:


> I didn't see the video with someone dropping the card, but since you mentioned it I did see a video with the card being passed around suggesting at most it needs to be in a spot for the car to be turned on. Perhaps there is a sense in the console and the card has to be close to it for the car to turn on.


Almost painful to watch:






Not sure if the timecode works, starts at 21:58.
The card ends up under the seat around the 23:00 mark.

She even puts the car in P while the card is lost (not sure what might trigger needing to use it again - maybe driver door opening and closing).


----------



## SoFlaModel3

orcinus said:


> Almost painful to watch:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Not sure if the timecode works, starts at 21:58.
> The card ends up under the seat around the 23:00 mark.
> 
> She even puts the car in P while the card is lost (not sure what might trigger needing to use it again - maybe driver door opening and closing).


LOL thanks for sharing.


----------



## MarkB

ModFather said:


> Everything in life is risk management.


ALARP


----------



## Thomas Mikl

Guys they said the unlock uses BLE, but not it unlocks by BLE only.
BLE can be used (like in Apple stores) to detect you coming near, but then on the phone it will activate an app and that app can do whatever it wants. So basically the car could detect your phone coming near, activate the Tesla app and then the Tesla app and the car can communicate with whatever secure protocol (that hopefully they will keep secret and propriatary) to really unlock the car.
There are actually bluetooth door opening systems for houses that work that way already and have been deemend the most secure way to lock your house by several security experts.


----------



## Akilae

BLE is not the problem here. It's just the communication channel (which of course has to be secure aswell). The app and Tesla's infrastructure itself ist prone to attack in this scenario. You have to trust the authentication and identification mechanisms they put in place which you also do if you just use their app on the S or X. So actually from a security perspective nothing really changes (actually it's gets better than before) because BLE is better than the fob.

Also because I have just read it before...
Security by obscurity is a concept which has proven to fail countless times. Every major cryptography algorithm which actually is used in the industry right now is an open mathematical concept for a good reason. So every mind on this planet can try and break the mechanism and proof that it is insecure. If the algorithm isn't flawed you won't be able to find a loophole (of course implentation specific errors can still happen). You are prone to failure if you go alone into a forrest to "develop" your own encryption method which you won't show anybody.


----------



## orcinus

Akilae said:


> Also because I have just read it before...
> Security by obscurity is a concept which has proven to fail countless times. Every major cryptography algorithm which actually is used in the industry right now is an open mathematical concept for a good reason. So every mind on this planet can try and break the mechanism and proof that it is insecure. If the algorithm isn't flawed you won't be able to find a loophole (of course implentation specific errors can still happen). You are prone to failure if you go alone into a forrest to "develop" your own encryption method which you won't show anybody.


Ah, but security through obscurity does not necessarily mean that the underlying encryption algo needs to be proprietary. Just that the rest of the stack is, and is not adhering to a (published) industry standard. You're free to use AES or whichever algorithm you prefer - the idea is just that people don't necessarily know what you're using, and how it slots into the bigger picture.

Rolling your own encryption is typically a very bad idea, you're absolutely correct.



Thomas Mikl said:


> Guys they said the unlock uses BLE, but not it unlocks by BLE only.
> BLE can be used (like in Apple stores) to detect you coming near, but then on the phone it will activate an app and that app can do whatever it wants.


Using BLE just for beacon (presence detection) would make sense, yes.
The problem is, the app then still has to transmit data over BLE, or it's not local (i.e. you lose the ability to unlock if there's no service on your phone, or the car). This does not have to be a problem, though, as long as the messages sent are authenticated well (meaning even if someone intercepts the messages, and decrypts them, there's no possibility of a replay attack or somehow reverse engineering the authentication).


----------



## Akilae

orcinus said:


> Ah, but security through obscurity does not necessarily mean that the underlying encryption algo needs to be proprietary.


This was not to map exclusivly to an encryption algorithm. More likely as a general example. Don't get me wrong, I think obscurity is a valid layer in a security concept in general. I do not need to name my password safe file MasterPasswordSafe.kdbx. Something a bit more subtle would help in this case. But if this is a plain txt file housing all my passwords because it's the only mechanism I have used then I'm lost. In many companies I have been so far there was this mentality that if my code is closed and I won't show it then I "gain" security which is simply not the case. You have other advantages by not opening your source codes, security is not one of them. Security by design is a far more desireable approach.

https://www.owasp.org/index.php/Security_by_Design_Principles#Avoid_security_by_obscurity
http://www.robohara.com/?p=1439
http://freevideolectures.com/Course/2656/CSCI-E-2-Bits/25

And I am with you on the BLE mechanism. This does not have to be a security problem. But a fob where the only mechanism is beeing propietary and obscure it certainly is (which I don't say that Tesla is only using this).

http://www.express.co.uk/life-style/cars/806889/Keyless-entry-car-keys-hack-theft-warning
https://threatpost.com/key-fob-hack-allows-attackers-to-unlock-millions-of-cars/119846/


----------



## orcinus

For what its worth, there were two exploits reported so far, that allowed remote access to Teslas.
None of them related to BLE or fobs, but just using it to make a point - which is, those were patched when they were reported.

Using BLE with a proprietary protocol on top has this same advantage - security holes can be patched (unlike with a "standard" 433/315 MHz fob). Relying just on "naked" BLE, however, is dependent on the standard, with all its issues. Thus, BLE + proprietary handshake and message authentication should be fine for most, assuming any discovered exploits are quickly plugged (as they seem to have been so far).

One thing to keep in mind is that with Model 3 the cross-section exposed to attacks will double or triple. And not just because of the number of cars, but because of the places they're kept. I might be completely off on this, but i'd assume there will be more S and X cars in garages, than there will be 3's. Also, geographic distribution will become way way wider.

All of this means that Tesla's opsec game will have to get even more serious than now, and super-fast.

Note also, that your phone becomes the weakest link in this brave new world.


----------



## Thomas Mikl

orcinus said:


> Using BLE just for beacon (presence detection) would make sense, yes.
> The problem is, the app then still has to transmit data over BLE, or it's not local (i.e. you lose the ability to unlock if there's no service on your phone, or the car). This does not have to be a problem, though, as long as the messages sent are authenticated well (meaning even if someone intercepts the messages, and decrypts them, there's no possibility of a replay attack or somehow reverse engineering the authentication).


That is why you usually make a tunnel in a tunnel.
Same principle as VPN over webbrowser. While the SSL encryption of the webbrowser could be cracked (theoretically) by a man in the middle attack you described, it does not say the stream on the inside needs to be plain. That is why most browser VPNs use an underlying encryption tunnel as an addon. And since you can have a special supercomputer doing it (which your phone is, as most smartphones today have more computing power than PCs from 6 years ago) you can easily make an advanced encryption for this short burst of probably challenge and response with your car. You could even make an symetrical key pair that you get on the phone when first initialising the app. There are loads of possibilities and I guess Tesla wont tell us what, but I am sure they have people more intelligent than me working on it.

Now of course some russian hacker might still break in, but then if he steals my Tesla I will activate the seat electrocution system...


----------



## George K

Another question about the card, is the card waterproof ? I will sometimes go to pool and leave fob key for Honda pilot in swim suit pocket , it still works after swimming laps. I expect I will leave phone in car so that would be another problem using phone for key. I guess I would have to turn it off or disable bluetooth.


----------



## mig

George K said:


> Another question about the card, is the card waterproof ? I will sometimes go to pool and leave fob key for Honda pilot in swim suit pocket , it still works after swimming laps. I expect I will leave phone in car so that would be another problem using phone for key. I guess I would have to turn it off or disable bluetooth.


This came up before and I think the conclusion is that the card will be waterproof. If you leave the phone in the car you'll have to turn it off or disable bluetooth.

This is actually a better situation than the Model S. I swim open water sometimes, and used to hide my key somewhere on the car itself. With modern keyless entry systems like on S, this is not possible, and since the keys are not waterproof you can't take them with you on your swim, so you have to hide the key in the bushes or something.

With the card (assuming it is waterproof) you can either take it with you in your suit pocket, or even hide it on the car somewhere far enough from the sensor on the pillar.


----------



## SoFlaModel3

George K said:


> Another question about the card, is the card waterproof ? I will sometimes go to pool and leave fob key for Honda pilot in swim suit pocket , it still works after swimming laps. I expect I will leave phone in car so that would be another problem using phone for key. I guess I would have to turn it off or disable bluetooth.


That is a good question. I run half/full marathons and deal with the valet key currently. I think the card (assuming its waterproof) will work well for me in that regard!


----------



## ModFather

SoFlaModel3 said:


> I run half/full marathons


If you put UWCs on your sneakers your times would improve!


----------



## JWardell

Yes, passive RFID cards are waterproof. They are just like a credit card.
And really active fobs are just fine getting wet or dunked in water. At worst you just need to dry out or replace the battery.


----------



## mig

JWardell said:


> Yes, passive RFID cards are waterproof. They are just like a credit card.
> And really active fobs are just fine getting wet or dunked in water. At worst you just need to dry out or replace the battery.


Don't try it in salt water though!


----------



## 2170pwr




----------



## Tim M

I wonder how the phone access will work if you have two M3s? We plan to park two next to each other in the garage.

I'm assuming there would be a profile for each car on each of our phones (so either of us could drive either one).
I'm also assuming that (w/premium pkg), the driver profile will be determined by which phone is used. However, what about both of us getting in the same car to go somewhere? One has priority for that car? Or first one in range? Or you have to manually select from the dash screen?


----------



## ModFather

Tim M said:


> I wonder how the phone access will work if you have two M3s? We plan to park two next to each other in the garage.
> 
> I'm assuming there would be a profile for each car on each of our phones (so either of us could drive either one).
> I'm also assuming that (w/premium pkg), the driver profile will be determined by which phone is used. However, what about both of us getting in the same car to go somewhere? One has priority for that car? Or first one in range? Or you have to manually select from the dash screen?


I presume the app on the phone will have selectable profiles. You pick which profile you want to use.


----------



## John

Tim M said:


> However, what about both of us getting in the same car to go somewhere? One has priority for that car? Or first one in range? Or you have to manually select from the dash screen?


Good question. I was hoping every family member could have a profile to be able to drive the car.
Kind of a pain if I get in and the seats move way forward because it thinks my wife is driving.
I don't really want to have opening/closing the app as a step either way if possible.
But maybe if it saw two recognized profiles in range and asked on the screen that would be okay...


----------



## /billy

I wonder If I leave my phone in the car(say if you don't want to carry it for a bit), will the key card lock the doors?


----------



## SoFlaModel3

wastone1 said:


> I wonder If I leave my phone in the car(say if you don't want to carry it for a bit), will the key card lock the doors?


As a safety feature my current car won't lock itself if the keys are in the car. It will lock itself automatically after 30 seconds if the keys leave the car.

On Model 3 your phone is the key. To leave your phone behind may require turning off Bluetooth.

We shall see!


----------



## /billy

Ya, that's what I was thinking as a workaround unfortunately. May be later there be an option to disable certain features on the app.


----------



## SoFlaModel3

wastone1 said:


> Ya, that's what I was thinking as a workaround unfortunately. May be later there be an option to disable certain features on the app.


We will find out for sure soon enough!


----------



## BellevueEd

John said:


> Twice I have given talks to large groups about my company's products and someone has stood up and asked, "When will you have a Windows Phone version?" Both times, it was just one person in the audience. Both people (on different coasts of the US) worked for the same employer.
> 
> Microsoft.
> 
> Is that the case here, too?


No, it is not the case. I've used ios and Android devices, and find them lacking in a good UI. I understand that Windows phones haven't sold at all well, but I find the interface so much better than the popular ones. (I also bought Betamax, so.....) It strikes me that any company developing apps for phones would write in a language which is easily translatable via an interface to most any device. It's not a new concept. Goes back to at least the '60s.


----------



## BellevueEd

MelindaV said:


> being from Bellevue, that was what I was going to ask too but you beat me to it


Hmmm. Both my 'kids' spent many years with the Evil Empire, but mine was spent with a company better known for its color. Meet you sometime at the Superchargers in Centralia? If, and when, our hardware arrives.

As an aside, I wrote my first code, assembler, for an IBM 7094 in '64, and learned Visual Basic about ten years ago to write an app for my wife. I prefer FORTRAN IV and APL.


----------



## roguenode

BellevueEd said:


> No, it is not the case. I've used ios and Android devices, and find them lacking in a good UI. I understand that Windows phones haven't sold at all well, but I find the interface so much better than the popular ones. (I also bought Betamax, so.....) It strikes me that any company developing apps for phones would write in a language which is easily translatable via an interface to most any device. It's not a new concept. Goes back to at least the '60s.


I work for a small mobile app company. We create native Android and iOS apps using Java for Android and either C or Swift for iOS. The number of potential app users for Windows 10 Mobile, let alone the less than backward compatible older windows phone OS versions is too low for us to seriously consider, even if an intern was doing it. I suppose if you don't write the app natively for windows 10 mobile and just port a wrapped webview or some crap effort like that, it would still be a waste of time as you'd need to port it with each minor update and offer support to end users. Just an opinion, but easy to do for a hobbyist effort or as a proof of concept is one thing, but easy for a commercial dev shop is another and doesn't mean the same thing as being worthwhile. There's a limited number of dev hours, you put them where they make the most impact. Windows mobile loses out in those considerations.


----------



## Michel Zehnder

You know that a system is failing when the manufacturer releases most apps on other platforms than his own first, or sometimes doesn't even have the apps on the own platform... Funny stuff


----------



## SoFlaModel3

BellevueEd said:


> No, it is not the case. I've used ios and Android devices, and find them lacking in a good UI. I understand that Windows phones haven't sold at all well, but I find the interface so much better than the popular ones. (I also bought Betamax, so.....) It strikes me that any company developing apps for phones would write in a language which is easily translatable via an interface to most any device. It's not a new concept. Goes back to at least the '60s.


I am responsible for the development of a new app for our customers and Windows did not cross our mind for a second. Android and iOS are the only platforms we looked at. Even if adding a third platform would be relatively easy it's also another thing to support and that's just something we didn't want to touch for such a small user group.


----------



## BellevueEd

roguenode said:


> I work for a small mobile app company. We create native Android and iOS apps using Java for Android and either C or Swift for iOS. The number of potential app users for Windows 10 Mobile, let alone the less than backward compatible older windows phone OS versions is too low for us to seriously consider, even if an intern was doing it. I suppose if you don't write the app natively for windows 10 mobile and just port a wrapped webview or some crap effort like that, it would still be a waste of time as you'd need to port it with each minor update and offer support to end users. Just an opinion, but easy to do for a hobbyist effort or as a proof of concept is one thing, but easy for a commercial dev shop is another and doesn't mean the same thing as being worthwhile. There's a limited number of dev hours, you put them where they make the most impact. Windows mobile loses out in those considerations.


Since memory sizes, and cpu speed and capabilities, dominate most software these days, it strikes me that it would be much more productive for developers not to write native apps, but to use high level code easily ported to different environments. Keep the best developers working on application code, and others doing the platform interface work. The code needed to provide functionality for the Tesla interface can't be either CPU or memory challenging, so need not be ultra efficient. Writing high level code is much more productive than writing in 808x or 6502 (or whatever). (I think we're getting away from the point of the blog, you think?)


----------



## roguenode

BellevueEd said:


> Since memory sizes, and cpu speed and capabilities, dominate most software these days, it strikes me that it would be much more productive for developers not to write native apps, but to use high level code easily ported to different environments. Keep the best developers working on application code, and others doing the platform interface work. The code needed to provide functionality for the Tesla interface can't be either CPU or memory challenging, so need not be ultra efficient. Writing high level code is much more productive than writing in 808x or 6502 (or whatever). (I think we're getting away from the point of the blog, you think?)


Good points, but you still need to divert some resources to the effort and windows mobile doesn't have nearly the adoption needed to make it worth it imo. If those same resources be directed to improve the iOS and Android versions, we gain and retain more customers.

Back to the card entry, it would be nice if there were a way to leave your phone in the car and use the card without having to disable bluetooth each time. I leave my phone in my car a handful of times a week when running.


----------



## SoFlaModel3

roguenode said:


> Good points, but you still need to divert some resources to the effort and windows mobile doesn't have nearly the adoption needed to make it worth it imo. If those same resources be directed to improve the iOS and Android versions, we gain and retain more customers.
> 
> Back to the card entry, it would be nice if there were a way to leave your phone in the car and use the card without having to disable bluetooth each time. I leave my phone in my car a handful of times a week when running.


I don't know about your current car, but if I leave my keys in the car it won't lock itself.

To that end, I don't see it being a big deal that you would simply disable Bluetooth.

Alternatively you may be able to leave your phone in the car and swipe the B pillar with the card to lock the car.

We will just have to wait and see...


----------



## MelindaV

BellevueEd said:


> Meet you sometime at the Superchargers in Centralia? If, and when, our hardware arrives.


absolutely! can. not. wait.

I do admit to having driven thru the Centralia SC lot a time or two on trips to/from Seattle just to scope it out. Generally, my normal stops are either the east side of the freeway or starbucks, so will have to re-think working this in, especially with others that may not want to take a mile round trip walk to get a non-McD snack.


----------



## John

BellevueEd said:


> Since memory sizes, and cpu speed and capabilities, dominate most software these days, it strikes me that it would be much more productive for developers not to write native apps, but to use high level code easily ported to different environments. Keep the best developers working on application code, and others doing the platform interface work. The code needed to provide functionality for the Tesla interface can't be either CPU or memory challenging, so need not be ultra efficient. Writing high level code is much more productive than writing in 808x or 6502 (or whatever). (I think we're getting away from the point of the blog, you think?)


For simple apps, sure. But once you start using third party modules to build the sophisticated apps people expect (graphing, image recognition, etc), you quickly inherit everyone else's compatibility. All it takes is one key module that doesn't support Windows Phone and you can't run it on that platform.

My company uses an awesome cross-platform native-compiling platform (owned by Microsoft called Xamarin) to support iOS and Android. We may extend that to desktop Windows and OS/X. But no plans for Windows Phone.

So I wouldn't count on Tesla support for it.


----------



## teslaliving

John said:


> For simple apps, sure. But once you start using third party modules to build the sophisticated apps people expect (graphing, image recognition, etc), you quickly inherit everyone else's compatibility. All it takes is one key module that doesn't support Windows Phone and you can't run it on that platform.
> 
> My company uses an awesome cross-platform native-compiling platform (owned by Microsoft called Xamarin) to support iOS and Android. We may extend that to desktop Windows and OS/X. But no plans for Windows Phone.
> 
> So I wouldn't count on Tesla support for it.


React-native (free, made by Facebook and what they use to build their apps) runs on iOS and Android and supposedly Windows phone too. I've done and shipped product on the first 2 in react-native but not enough demand to bother for Windows phone.


----------



## SoFlaModel3

John said:


> For simple apps, sure. But once you start using third party modules to build the sophisticated apps people expect (graphing, image recognition, etc), you quickly inherit everyone else's compatibility. All it takes is one key module that doesn't support Windows Phone and you can't run it on that platform.
> 
> My company uses an awesome cross-platform native-compiling platform (owned by Microsoft called Xamarin) to support iOS and Android. We may extend that to desktop Windows and OS/X. But no plans for Windows Phone.
> 
> So I wouldn't count on Tesla support for it.


We use Xamarin as well!


----------



## BellevueEd

MelindaV said:


> absolutely! can. not. wait.
> 
> I do admit to having driven thru the Centralia SC lot a time or two on trips to/from Seattle just to scope it out. Generally, my normal stops are either the east side of the freeway or starbucks, so will have to re-think working this in, especially with others that may not want to take a mile round trip walk to get a non-McD snack.


Funny. We normally stop at S'bucks on our way to Oregon City to visit my sister. Occasionally, we hit Burgerville. Love their seasonal shakes! East side of the freeway for burgers, west side for 'Bucks. My, chuckle, delivery window is Dec '17 - Feb '17. I'm doing the pricy version, reserved on announcement day, so.....Look for the red 3 with the glass roof!


----------



## BellevueEd

John said:


> For simple apps, sure. But once you start using third party modules to build the sophisticated apps people expect (graphing, image recognition, etc), you quickly inherit everyone else's compatibility. All it takes is one key module that doesn't support Windows Phone and you can't run it on that platform.
> 
> My company uses an awesome cross-platform native-compiling platform (owned by Microsoft called Xamarin) to support iOS and Android. We may extend that to desktop Windows and OS/X. But no plans for Windows Phone.
> 
> So I wouldn't count on Tesla support for it.


Saw a video this morning of the phone charging ports on the M3. They appear to support ONLY the current Apple phones, as the demo showed the phone being directly plugged into the charging port, not via a cable. A big disturbing, since it would exclude the Androids of the world. And, of course, the Windows phones .


----------



## MelindaV

BellevueEd said:


> Funny. We normally stop at S'bucks on our way to Oregon City to visit my sister. Occasionally, we hit Burgerville. Love their seasonal shakes! East side of the freeway for burgers, west side for 'Bucks. My, chuckle, delivery window is Dec '17 - Feb '17. I'm doing the pricy version, reserved on announcement day, so.....Look for the red 3 with the glass roof!


I have BVs everywhere here, but it's still my Centralia stop, since it is after all the last chance going north 
I'm at Jan-March, which I think if my window included December, I would have daily panic attacks up until December 31st waiting to see if it would be delivered before the end of 2017, so I guess (not really) it's better my window is all in 2018

ETA: Centralia Burgerville has had a Tesla Roadster charger (on the east side of the building) since before there was a supercharger network -and- my first sighting of a Model X (it was blue with ultra white) was at their drivethru in April 2016 when there were only a handful out in the wild.


----------



## BellevueEd

teslaliving said:


> React-native (free, made by Facebook and what they use to build their apps) runs on iOS and Android and supposedly Windows phone too. I've done and shipped product on the first 2 in react-native but not enough demand to bother for Windows phone.


Sounds like a good approach to the multi-platform issue. At the same time, I am not a friend of 'free,' as it can go away quickly, and tends to lack in support. I would think the Windows 10 folk would provide an environment to run either ios or Android apps without (much) change.


----------



## garsh

BellevueEd said:


> Saw a video this morning of the phone charging ports on the M3. They appear to support ONLY the current Apple phones, as the demo showed the phone being directly plugged into the charging port, not via a cable.


No, it's a cable. They have different kinds, available for purchase here:
https://shop.tesla.com/us/en/produc...-3-phone-charging-cable.html?sku=1116143-00-A

This pictogram explains how to install the cable:


----------



## BellevueEd

garsh said:


> No, it's a cable. They have different kinds, available for purchase here:
> https://shop.tesla.com/us/en/produc...-3-phone-charging-cable.html?sku=1116143-00-A
> 
> This pictogram explains how to install the cable:


Now, that is clever, and open ended. Should I have expected less, me of normally strong faith in Elon? Neh. Thanks, garsh. Windows phones survive for a few more days.


----------



## BellevueEd

SoFlaModel3 said:


> We use Xamarin as well!


Browsing Wikipedia, xamarin sounds like the tool all phone developers should use in order that we Windows phone bigots don't get left be hind, and have to drive our Studebakers forever. Ever onward, developers! (i.e., get with it)


----------



## Mike

BellevueEd said:


> Browsing Wikipedia, xamarin sounds like the tool all phone developers should use in order that we Windows phone bigots don't get left be hind, and have to drive our Studebakers forever. Ever onward, developers! (i.e., get with it)


BellevueEd (off topic): your mention of 'Studebaker forever'........I love your avatar. On my tablet, it almost looks like a Kodachrome shot, complete with what appears to be early 1950s vehicles in the shot. Well done. Cheers.


----------



## BellevueEd

Mike said:


> BellevueEd (off topic): your mention of 'Studebaker forever'........I love your avatar. On my tablet, it almost looks like a Kodachrome shot, complete with what appears to be early 1950s vehicles in the shot. Well done. Cheers.


Mike: Staying off topic, good eye! 1) It was probably taken with Kodachrome 64, 2) Probably taken around 1958, so the cars are truly '50s vintage, 3) picture was Photoshopped for my 50th high school reunion to show the old me and the current me. I kinda like the young me, 20 pounds lighter, brown hair, white bucks, Pendleton jacket.


----------



## Mike

BellevueEd said:


> It was probably taken with Kodachrome 64, 2) Probably taken around 1958, so the cars are truly '50s vintage, 3) picture was Photoshopped for my 50th high school reunion to show the old me and the current me.


Too. Cool!


----------



## Phil Kulak

This is the worst thread to be subscribed to...


----------



## Badback

Phil Kulak said:


> This is the worst thread to be subscribed to...


No, no,no, wurst thread is used to tie sausages into links.

If my reply is confusing, so was your post.


----------



## ng0

Woo hoo! I know i'm late to the party and I haven't gone through the 10 pages of posts, but I'm really excited about not having to carry around a keyfob ever again! I already do keyless entry to my house and this just means I officially don't have to leave the house with any keys.


----------



## Phil Kulak

Yup, me too. Lots will hate it, I'm sure, but key fobs have gotten so big these days it's crazy. Sure, if you have a purse it's no problem, but how am I expected to keep this stupid thing in my pocket with the rest of my keys?









I don't have a 7-series, but I don't even keep the fob for my Mazda on me. It lives on a hook in the kitchen, and half the time I need to get in the car I forget it. I never forget my phone!


----------



## Spinball

I’m glad I’m soon to be rid of key fobs AND Microsoft operating systems!


----------



## pjfw8

Spinball said:


> I'm glad I'm soon to be rid of key fobs AND Microsoft operating systems!


Will the card support valet destination charging? I had a great experience with destination charging at the Hilton in Saint Augustine, Florida. The valet offered to park and charge my car each time I used valet parking. Cool to have a "full" charge whenever I left the hotel. I would be surprised if Tesla forgot to include this function for the card. My wife was really impressed!


----------



## Panda

Question
If you need to leave your phone in the car (eg gone surfing), can you just take your tesla key card? Do you just turn off your phone to keep the tesla app from keeping car open? What's the protocol between key fobs, key apps and key cards if all of them are on?? Can someone clarify thanks.


----------



## Phil Kulak

Panda said:


> Question
> If you need to leave your phone in the car (eg gone surfing), can you just take your tesla key card? Do you just turn off your phone to keep the tesla app from keeping car open? What's the protocol between key fobs, key apps and key cards if all of them are on?? Can someone clarify thanks.


My guess is that you just turn off your phone (or just Bluetooth), leave it in the car, and stick the key card down your wetsuit somewhere.


----------



## MelindaV

pjfw8 said:


> Will the card support valet destination charging? I had a great experience with destination charging at the Hilton in Saint Augustine, Florida. The valet offered to park and charge my car each time I used valet parking. Cool to have a "full" charge whenever I left the hotel. I would be surprised if Tesla forgot to include this function for the card. My wife was really impressed!


the card is just for access to the car and to start the car. it doesn't have anything to do with charging. but you would hand the card to the hotel valet the same as you would the car fob/key and they will park/charge it the same as if you game them a fob/key.


----------

