# The Beauty of Autopilot



## 3V Pilot (Sep 15, 2017)

TLDR synopsis: Autopilot is addictive and when used as intended increases safety while reducing workload and stress.....but you already knew that (unless you don't have it).

So, I've had my Model 3 since mid April and just ticked over 10,000 miles. From the very moment Autopilot was done calibrating I've always engaged it (or TACC) as soon as the system showed as ready with either the gray steering wheel icon or gray circled speed limit. I'm not talking about something I've done occasionally or waited for the times it might come in handy, I'm talking about engaging the system literally within the first second of it being available for well over 95% of all driving. I've found the spots on my daily commute where it's not perfect and where I know it will disengage every time. I've also learned when and where to disengage or manually control the steering or speed in order to drive smoother then re-engage the system within seconds once past those areas. For instance slowing well before a red light or at that spot where the freeway lanes split and it's not quite sure which one to take. The point being that I've learned how and when to use the system to it's full potential and when to expect that it will not be perfect. Initially this was more experimentation and really learning the systems capabilities and limitations but it turned into and entirely different way to drive the car than I could of ever imagined.

Why does this matter and why did I decide to post all of this, well, now it's time for "the rest of the story"........

A few days ago I received that most coveted of all Tesla gifts, the magical "Software update ready" notification on my Tesla app. Being that it was 4am and I was barley awake of course had no bearing on what to do next. I jumped out of bed, headed straight to the garage and started the update. Hoping for Version 9 but knowing that was probably not the case I was still like a kid on Christmas morning, hoping and waiting for whatever magical new treats Elon had placed under the tree. Well, things didn't go as planned and when I hopped in the car to leave for work the screen said "Software updated failed, contact Tesla Service". At first I wondered if I could even drive the car or what kind of problems I might have but that didn't stop me and I was happy to see Reverse selected when I shifted upwards on the stock. However, as you've probably guessed Autopilot and TACC were no longer working. I called Tesla service right away and they said the updated failed at point where the autopilot software installs, plus they told me it was a known issue but I think they've been conditioned to tell everyone that for every issue (like it makes us feel better about not being the only one). They said they would push an update to the car but it would take between 1 and 4 days to get it done.

For 2 long days I had to drive my car completely in the old fashioned method of full manual control and a few things really struck me. First off the fact that I had become so totally dependent on Autopilot assisting me with lane control and keeping speed that it was really annoying to have to go back to doing those things myself. It felt so distracting and frankly unsafe once the car didn't "have my back" so to speak. I always maintain my awareness while using the Autopilot system but I've very quickly come to rely on it for taking the load off and allowing me to concentrate more on the big picture of what's around. Now that I was back to concentrating on the small stuff like speed and maintaining the car in the lane it was much less relaxing and I didn't have the same level of concentration or awareness of other traffic and surroundings. It really made driving much more of a task and much less enjoyable.

I recently attended a Tesla Club meeting where I heard several drivers comment that they rarely use Autopilot because one time it didn't work right or because the warnings to keep your hands on the wheel come far too often now. I guess I wanted to post this for those of you out there in that camp. If you've decided not to trust the system I FULLY AGREE with you, you SHOULDN'T "Trust" it! However, that does not mean you shouldn't use it. I don't trust (or expect) an old fashioned cruise control to keep the car from running into a fire truck that's stopped on the freeway and I certainly don't trust (or expect) Autopilot to do that either. What I would suggest though is use the system as much as possible and learn what it can and can't do. Use it for everything it's worth and in every way you can to make your drive safer and more relaxing. Use it to concentrate on what it's best at so you can concentrate more on everything else. Once you do it will not take very long until you are addicted like me and can't live without it!........or, maybe you just really want to keep driving this spaceship like it's still a horse and buggy, I don't know, it's up to you. I'm sure some people will never trust the system or maybe just prefer to drive themselves. For me, I'll never go back now that I know the difference and I'm not sure I would of realized that had it not been for those 2 days......

If you've made it this far I'll lend a little more perspective as to why I might be more inclined to push this system to it's limits than what most people would be willing to try. This is not to persuade you against doing so but just to give you a further understanding of where I'm coming from with all of this. For the last 3 decades I've made my living by controlling complex machinery in some very high stress and high workload multitasking environments. What does all that mean, well hand flying helicopters using Night Vision Goggles in mountainous terrain and bad weather for a start. That's akin to driving 100+ MPH while blindfolded and attempting not to hit what you can't see (okay maybe not that bad but you get the idea). I've flown all sorts of helicopters and airplanes for many years and the vast majority of my 7000+ hours of flight time has been without the aid of any type of autopilot system. I say all of this because I'm very used to operating machinery at it's limit and mine. Having a system in a car that, on occasion may swerve a little or phantom brake when it doesn't need to doesn't really bother me. I just take control when needed and I never feel like the car "tried to kill me" or take it personally. It's just a machine, doing the best it can do with the brain it's got. 

It may not be for everyone to push the limits of the system the way I do but it's also not BEYOND ANYONE either. If you really want to get the most out of this car and what it can do, let it do it's thing and gradually increase your own comfort level. Keep a good cushion of space in front, behind, all around and also maintain your awareness while you let the Autopilot take some of the load off. The more you use it the more you will want to, it just takes a little time to get there.

Overall I think that Autopilot is the bleeding edge of technology and yes, of course there is room for improvement. However it truly is a great feature that makes driving much more safe, relaxing and I've come to be a firm believer in using it at all times.

I'm sure there are others here who might feel just as strongly against using it all the time but that's one reason why I started this post. What's your thoughts?????


----------



## RichEV (Sep 21, 2017)

3V Pilot said:


> TLDR synopsis: Autopilot is addictive and when used as intended increases safety while reducing workload and stress.....but you already knew that (unless you don't have it).
> 
> So, I've had my Model 3 since mid April and just ticked over 10,000 miles. From the very moment Autopilot was done calibrating I've always engaged it (or TACC) as soon as the system showed as ready with either the gray steering wheel icon or gray circled speed limit. I'm not talking about something I've done occasionally or waited for the times it might come in handy, I'm talking about engaging the system literally within the first second of it being available for well over 95% of all driving. I've found the spots on my daily commute where it's not perfect and where I know it will disengage every time. I've also learned when and where to disengage or manually control the steering or speed in order to drive smoother then re-engage the system within seconds once past those areas. For instance slowing well before a red light or at that spot where the freeway lanes split and it's not quite sure which one to take. The point being that I've learned how and when to use the system to it's full potential and when to expect that it will not be perfect. Initially this was more experimentation and really learning the systems capabilities and limitations but it turned into and entirely different way to drive the car than I could of ever imagined.
> 
> ...


100% agree! Thanks for the excellent post. I have learned how to "happily and safely dance with my autopliot partner". I know her quirks, and I know she will improve over time. OTA updates rock!


----------



## bpjod (Sep 24, 2017)

My thoughts exactly. I use EAP much the same as you. I also had a failed update with the same error, although I only had 6,000 km behind the wheel by that time, less than half your experience. The 5 days without EAP taught me how much I've come to enjoy it's assistance. I take control away from it a lot for instance to let someone in ahead of me, to avoid potholes, to not drive in the rain filled ruts so as to avoid hydroplaning, to keep the speed limit on the stretch of highway I always drive that the mapping software thinks is 70 kph, but it's really 100 kph, etc. However this doesn't bother me in the least (well except for the map error), it's an amazing driver aid, even if I occasionally must take over.


----------



## PNWmisty (Aug 19, 2017)

While the Autopilot in my Model 3 has never "taken a vacation" after an update, I do know that I would miss it precisely for the reasons shared. 

I use it quite a bit on narrow roads that are not well marked or divided and am amazed at its ability to detect the road edges simply by the line of debris that forms about where the white line would be if there was one. However, in rural situations, I don't think I would miss it too much if it was disabled for any reason. 

Where it really pays for itself is on busy urban freeways and arterials with fast-moving, chaotic traffic. And I agree, it really does free up my mind to focus on the things that really matter. I find myself looking further ahead and also in my mirrors more when I have Autopilot to manage the speed and lane position. And it's super relaxing to use in slow-moving stop-n-go. In that kind of traffic, without Autopilot, I sometimes feel stressed and impatient. It's tedious and mindless to continually creep forward only to stop again and again or creep along at 5-15 mph for miles. With Autopilot engaged I feel like a load has been removed from my shoulders. I allow my mind to wander more while, of course, still watching what's going on around me. It's almost enough to make me want to go find a traffic jam to insert myself in.


----------



## 3V Pilot (Sep 15, 2017)

Okay, well it's good to know that I'm not the only one that feels this way! After some of the comments I heard I was really starting to wonder and just felt the need to share my thoughts.


----------



## MelindaV (Apr 2, 2016)

Great post @3V Pilot 
Couple questions I'd like your opinion on (or other diehard AP users)...
Thoughts on FSD? My delivery is scheduled for early next week and still up in the air on having FSD added prior to driving off with it. My thought process is, if the FSD get the upgraded brain, even if FSD isn't around for a number of years, EAP I'm sure could benefit from it, even if "not needed" as Elon has said.
And I rented a Model 3 last weekend for a trip to Seattle (160 miles each way) and started out in AP, in the right hand lane and while it was fine 99% of the time, its attempt to recenter itself at on-ramps (without delineating striping) got tiring and eventually went to just TACC. Do you generally avoid the right lane?
I returned this car Monday morning near my office, so got to experience my typical morning commute as well. There often is an area following an interchange where traffic lightens up and speeds up, then a mile further comes to a full stop. In your experience, how well has it done to pick up those cars that are stopped ahead of you, but outside what it is tracking (at least as shown on the screen)? In my case, I ended up disengaging it as it came up to the stopped traffic to be cautious but wasn't sure if the system could have safely dealt with that.


----------



## RichEV (Sep 21, 2017)

MelindaV said:


> Great post @3V Pilot
> Couple questions I'd like your opinion on (or other diehard AP users)...
> Thoughts on FSD? My delivery is scheduled for early next week and still up in the air on having FSD added prior to driving off with it. My thought process is, if the FSD get the upgraded brain, even if FSD isn't around for a number of years, EAP I'm sure could benefit from it, even if "not needed" as Elon has said.
> And I rented a Model 3 last weekend for a trip to Seattle (160 miles each way) and started out in AP, in the right hand lane and while it was fine 99% of the time, its attempt to recenter itself at on-ramps (without delineating striping) got tiring and eventually went to just TACC. Do you generally avoid the right lane?
> I returned this car Monday morning near my office, so got to experience my typical morning commute as well. There often is an area following an interchange where traffic lightens up and speeds up, then a mile further comes to a full stop. In your experience, how well has it done to pick up those cars that are stopped ahead of you, but outside what it is tracking (at least as shown on the screen)? In my case, I ended up disengaging it as it came up to the stopped traffic to be cautious but wasn't sure if the system could have safely dealt with that.


- FSD-
I got it at purchase because I want to be there as soon as some functionality is available. and to get free hardware upgrades to the brains
- exit wandering -
Yes, generally I avoid the right lane, although I will say it has gotten slightly better over the releases at holding the line with short right-side gaps in the lane marking for exits. Mostly I just hold on a little tighter to the wheel and if it does try to veer the autosteer turns off.
- distant stopped traffic -
I still sometimes disengage when headed toward a stopped car at 45-50 mph. The times I have let it go it brakes slightly harder than I would prefer but it does stop safely.


----------



## MelindaV (Apr 2, 2016)

RichEV said:


> - FSD-
> I got it at purchase because I want to be there as soon as some functionality is available. and to get free hardware upgrades to the brains
> - exit wandering -
> Yes, generally I avoid the right lane, although I will say it has gotten slightly better over the releases at holding the line with short right-side gaps in the lane marking for exits. Mostly I just hold on a little tighter to the wheel and if it does try to veer the autosteer turns off.
> ...


thanks - the car I had, was a few FW versions back (IIRC 2018.28.x). I didn't notice it wandering on the exit gaps, just the onramp gaps, but do think it is related to how those are striped, as the exit approach is a smaller blank area vs the onramp merging side.
On approaching stopped cars, I've not heard of any EAP engaged cars rear ending someone, but didn't want to be the one, especially in someone else's car


----------



## PNWmisty (Aug 19, 2017)

MelindaV said:


> There often is an area following an interchange where traffic lightens up and speeds up, then a mile further comes to a full stop. In your experience, how well has it done to pick up those cars that are stopped ahead of you, but outside what it is tracking (at least as shown on the screen)? In my case, I ended up disengaging it as it came up to the stopped traffic to be cautious but wasn't sure if the system could have safely dealt with that.


As you become familiar with Autopilots behavior, you will find there are situations where it will not react as soon as an attentive driver who is anticipating slowdowns ahead and that it is more efficient to coast into them rather than continue at 65 mph until you actually need to slow down. In those cases, I cancel autopilot so I can coast into the backup. To answer your question, Autopilot would probably deal with that situation safely, but not in the most elegant fashion.

As you gain proficiency in Autopilot use you will become more adept at seamlessly transitioning between manual driving and Autopilot, it will become second nature and you won't even think about it. Before I had much experience with it, I often had that "deer in the headlights" feeling because I wasn't sure how it all worked. I would jerk the wheel to the side to disengage it. Now I flick the lever up while simultaneously depressing the accelerator partway to modulate regenerative braking and seamlessly and gradually slow down.


----------



## NJturtlePower (Dec 19, 2017)

3V Pilot said:


> *I'm sure there are others here who might feel just as strongly against using it* all the time but that's one reason why I started this post. What's your thoughts?????












Haha  No really though....my EAP 2-week trial ended last week and it won't be missed.

IF you commute on well marked roadways 25+ miles per day I can see how Auto Pilot would be useful, but if you are a city or local short haul commuter (5-15mi daily) like myself the package adds little to no value.

Auto Park almost NEVER would come up in even some of the better marked lots.

Summon is a cool party trick, nothing more (and slow at that).

And while not exactly related, FSD is only a myth..besides helping Tesla out with a zero-return loan for X amount of years to come. Personally, I would have spent that money on a nice watch, a pair of good sunglasses and a sundial in the yard so you can track the time that goes by until you get anything in return.

All just IMO of course... and I love my 3 in every way...so If could add any single part of EAP it would only be TACC for the times I take a longer drive or small road trip. The rest of the driving experience is too much fun to be hands off.


----------



## PNWmisty (Aug 19, 2017)

NJturtlePower said:


> All just IMO of course... and I love my 3 in every way...so If could add any single part of EAP it would only be TACC for the times I take a longer drive or small road trip. The rest of the driving experience is too much fun to be hands off.


True, no matter how nice the auto-lane-keeping feature is, I wouldn't want to be without Traffic Aware Cruise Control!


----------



## Ed Woodrick (May 26, 2018)

While I'll agree with the views, I really hate calling this autopilot. It's adaptive cruise control and lane guidance.
There are a lot of cars on the road with the same features, my 2018 Leaf does the same thing.


----------



## PNWmisty (Aug 19, 2017)

Ed Woodrick said:


> While I'll agree with the views, I really hate calling this autopilot. It's adaptive cruise control and lane guidance.
> There are a lot of cars on the road with the same features, my 2018 Leaf does the same thing.


"Autopilot" is a Tesla trademarked name for their system. The Model 3 has "Enhanced Autopilot".

Nissan has the "Propilot" trademark which, if you think about it, could imply even more expertise and ability than "Auto". I don't think we should get too hung up on tradenames as long as the manufacturer makes it clear that driver awareness is still required.


----------



## garsh (Apr 4, 2016)

Ed Woodrick said:


> While I'll agree with the views, I really hate calling this autopilot....
> ...my 2018 Leaf does the same thing.


<cough>PROpilot</cough> 

Autopilot is a very appropriate name for the feature. It really is analogous to an airplane autopilot. The original airplane autopilot would maintain altitude and heading. It didn't avoid other airplanes. It didn't avoid military bases. It didn't avoid storm fronts. It just kept the plane on a path, much like Tesla Autopilot keeps a car in a lane.


----------



## Ed Woodrick (May 26, 2018)

garsh said:


> <cough>PROpilot</cough>
> 
> Autopilot is a very appropriate name for the feature. It really is analogous to an airplane autopilot. The original airplane autopilot would maintain altitude and heading. It didn't avoid other airplanes. It didn't avoid military bases. It didn't avoid storm fronts. It just kept the plane on a path, much like Tesla Autopilot keeps a car in a lane.


Yea, but an airplane autopilot can take you across the country! And even today, in an airplane with "autopilot" you expect a lot more than just direction and altitude holding. Today you expect to be able to plot multiple segments with varying information, even to the point of runway to runway.


----------



## PNWmisty (Aug 19, 2017)

Ed Woodrick said:


> Today you expect to be able to plot multiple segments with varying information, even to the point of runway to runway.


You mean some autopilots have more capability than other autopilots?

I'm OK with that. Just like some GPS's can do multi-point routes and others can only go point to point. Even though they have different capabilities, they are both GPS's.


----------



## Ed Woodrick (May 26, 2018)

PNWmisty said:


> "Autopilot" is a Tesla trademarked name for their system. The Model 3 has "Enhanced Autopilot".
> 
> Nissan has the "Propilot" trademark which, if you think about it, could imply even more expertise and ability than "Auto". I don't think we should get too hung up on tradenames as long as the manufacturer makes it clear that driver awareness is still required.


I believe that Nissan went with ProPilot just to help make sure that the public doesn't expect full driving. And full self driving is indeed what most people think when they hear autopilot.

I think that we also do a little disservice to the future when we look back and try to describe the feature set that we have now. When we get V9, is it fair to call both it and the current generation "autopilot" When FSD comes, will it be fair to call V9 "autopilot"

And most importantly, what is the definition of autopilot. It you to back down to it, every vehicle with cruise control has autopilot.


----------



## MelindaV (Apr 2, 2016)

Ed Woodrick said:


> I believe that Nissan went with ProPilot just to help make sure that the public doesn't expect full driving. And full self driving is indeed what most people think when they hear autopilot.


this has been debated for years already, but I'll just add that is personal perception of what the meaning is. Myself, as "people", do not think of fully self driving because of the autopilot name. 'propilot' to me sounds like they picked that name simply because it sounds like tesla's autopilot name and they likely figured they could piggy back off it.


----------



## PNWmisty (Aug 19, 2017)

Ed Woodrick said:


> And most importantly, what is the definition of autopilot. It you to back down to it, every vehicle with cruise control has autopilot.


When you think about the task of driving, there are basically three controls that control the cars motion, the steering, the throttle and the brake.

A regular cruise control only controls the throttle.
Traffic-aware cruise control controls the throttle and the brake.
Auto-pilot controls the throttle, the brake and the steering wheel.

Can Autopilot handle all roads and all conditions? No.
Can an aviation autopilot handle all runways? No. The runway has to be equipped with auxiliary equipment.
Can an aviation autopilot handle all weather conditions? No, there are limitations.

I guess I don't see the distinction you are trying to make. No autopilot can do everything, they all have limitations and those limitations are specific to each individual autopilot.

But I don't have high hopes I can change your mind.


----------



## Bokonon (Apr 13, 2017)

MelindaV said:


> Do you generally avoid the right lane?


Yup. All of the lane-centering systems I've driven tried (including Autosteer) have had issues with highway exits. I'd be curious to know whether a map-based system like SuperCruise performs any better in this particular regard.



MelindaV said:


> There often is an area following an interchange where traffic lightens up and speeds up, then a mile further comes to a full stop.


Rose Quarter? 



MelindaV said:


> In your experience, how well has it done to pick up those cars that are stopped ahead of you, but outside what it is tracking (at least as shown on the screen)?


To add to what PNWMisty said about it braking later / more aggressively than a human driver would, I've learned to use the right-hand scroll wheel to gradually slow the car down when I see or anticipate stopped traffic in the distance. If you spin it toward you slowly (not the - 5mph fast spin) you can mimic the smooth, gradual slowdown of lightly letting up on the go pedal. When the car eventually sees the traffic, it won't brake as aggressively, and once it brings you to a stop, Autosteer will still be engaged to help you crawl along.

I've started using this trick on my commute home in an area where traffic typically behaves as you described (slow-ish --> faster --> full stop), and it has worked pretty well. And as an added complication, the "full stop" usually happens right around a curve, so Autopilot has less time to react, making the human assist all the more helpful.


----------



## MelindaV (Apr 2, 2016)

Bokonon said:


> Rose Quarter?


no. Southbound, after the MLK and PIR exits things speed up (to like 40!), then just about at Columbia it is piled back up.
passing Rose Quarter is slow both directions when I pass it. especially if I forget to get out of here before a blazer game :/


----------



## Bokonon (Apr 13, 2017)

MelindaV said:


> no. Southbound, after the MLK and PIR exits things speed up (to like 40!), then just about at Columbia it is piled back up.
> passing Rose Quarter is slow both directions when I pass it. especially if I forget to get out of here before a blazer game :/


Wow, that's awful. Once again, you've reminded me that my understanding of Portland traffic patterns is two decades old.  No wonder FSD is back on the table!

On that topic, my mostly-speculative opinion would be: if most of your commute is in I-5 gridlock at slow speeds, the car probably won't really do much with the extra cameras / processing power if all it needs to do is keep you centered in a lane and slogging forward at 5-10mph. For congested (but still fast-moving) stretches of highway, Autosteer + scroll-wheel speed modulation is a pretty effective combination. When Drive on Nav shows up, maybe it will make it smart enough to ignore right-lane exits that aren't on your currently calculated route, so that issue will go away. And perhaps with an assist from DoN (if not a simple disengage/re-engage from the driver), Autosteer should be able to handle long, walled, single-lane exits (e.g. OMSI / 99E) in bumper-to-bumper traffic without issue.

But if you also spend a lot of time stuck on secondary roads (where I think FSD will first start to differentiate itself from EAP), or you have to deal with more complicated exits and interchanges at higher speeds (where, as you reasoned, inputs from more cameras and the added processing power could help Don make a decision versus disengage), it could -- eventually -- be 3K well spent.


----------



## RichEV (Sep 21, 2017)

In the spirit of the beauty of autopilot ...

I've been loving using autopilot for a few months. Today, for the first time, I was travelling along and fully realized that I was a passenger in my own car. I was an attentive passenger, ready to take over when needed, but I wasn't the driver. I'm living in the future!


----------



## MelindaV (Apr 2, 2016)

Bokonon said:


> When Drive on Nav shows up, maybe it will make it smart enough to ignore right-lane exits that aren't on your currently calculated route, so that issue will go away.


on my commute, I normally am in the center lane both morning and evening.



Bokonon said:


> single-lane exits (e.g. OMSI / 99E) in bumper-to-bumper traffic without issue.


that is my exit  Now if EAP/FSD can avoid this ongoing hole, I'll be happy. (even more happy if ODOT just fixed it)


----------



## PNWmisty (Aug 19, 2017)

MelindaV said:


> on my commute, I normally am in the center lane both morning and evening.
> 
> that is my exit  Now if EAP/FSD can avoid this ongoing hole, I'll be happy. (even more happy if ODOT just fixed it)
> View attachment 14578


How long has that been there? I don't mind paying lots of taxes but I would if our roads looked like that! Has government given up and bought into the mantra that they can't do anything worthwhile? Are people completely off their rocker? Is public works in the pockets of suspension shops? That's ridiculous!


----------



## MelindaV (Apr 2, 2016)

PNWmisty said:


> How long has that been there? I don't mind paying lots of taxes but I would if our roads looked like that! Has government given up and bought into the mantra that they can't do anything worthwhile? Are people completely off their rocker? Is public works in the pockets of suspension shops? That's ridiculous!


I've taken this exit for work since 2009 (in this lane), since 2007 (in the right hand lane) and a failing patch in some degree or another has been there the entire time. This however, is the worse I can recall, so keep thinking any time they will be repairing it again. This is a pretty major route (enough for @Bokonon to know of it from the far side of the country  ) and would expect police & other emergency vehicles use it frequent enough that they would have complained.
attached screenshot is from google street view 2007 (wow, their quality has changed in 11 years!!)


----------



## Gavyne (Jul 7, 2018)

Wonderful story. Autopilot is a tool. When used properly you can really reap the benefits of it. It has limitations like any tools.

The more you get used to it the more you realize how smart it is. Tesla autopilot really is far ahead of competition, and it’ll only get better.


----------



## BigBri (Jul 16, 2016)

I'm coming near the end of my trial and I will very much miss AP.

I've only got a few kilometers of highway driving per day (if any, I can skip the highway and drive thru town) but I find myself looking forward to the highway driving. I've taken a few roadtrips with it and almost never have to disengage it. 

I plan to save up for it and hopefully get it at some point.. maybe there will be a sale at some point.


----------



## 3V Pilot (Sep 15, 2017)

MelindaV said:


> Great post @3V Pilot
> Couple questions I'd like your opinion on (or other diehard AP users)...
> Thoughts on FSD? My delivery is scheduled for early next week and still up in the air on having FSD added prior to driving off with it. My thought process is, if the FSD get the upgraded brain, even if FSD isn't around for a number of years, EAP I'm sure could benefit from it, even if "not needed" as Elon has said.
> And I rented a Model 3 last weekend for a trip to Seattle (160 miles each way) and started out in AP, in the right hand lane and while it was fine 99% of the time, its attempt to recenter itself at on-ramps (without delineating striping) got tiring and eventually went to just TACC. Do you generally avoid the right lane?
> I returned this car Monday morning near my office, so got to experience my typical morning commute as well. There often is an area following an interchange where traffic lightens up and speeds up, then a mile further comes to a full stop. In your experience, how well has it done to pick up those cars that are stopped ahead of you, but outside what it is tracking (at least as shown on the screen)? In my case, I ended up disengaging it as it came up to the stopped traffic to be cautious but wasn't sure if the system could have safely dealt with that.


I agree with the others who already answered but I'll chime in also.

I bought the FSD right up front because of possible hardware upgrades but also I wanted all of the functions the car is capable of, whenever they are released. Now that I've become so used to using autopilot I'll be very happy if FSD just started to read stop signs and street lights. That would be worth the price alone as far as I'm concerned.

Yes, I avoid the right hand lane but that's the way I've always driven so it's really not because of how Autopilot functions.

As far as slowing down goes it really depends on the situation. If I see something far ahead, like a red light or stopped traffic, I agree with the post above, disengage the system and let the regen slow the car down. However, for the most part if you have traffic around you leaving the system engaged usually works best. In time you will learn how to best control the system and when to disengage. It does take a little time but becomes then second nature and you really don't think about it much.


----------



## scaots (Sep 13, 2017)

Yup, I love it and can't stand to not have it. Best case is traffic to let it handle the stop and go. Also great on longer trips as it is much less fatiguing to drive hours with it. I've done four hours non-stop where normally I would be pretty exhausted, but not when using AP. And I know I feel way safer with it. 

My normal driving is 90-95% highway driving. On the winding hills of secondary roads in my area it doesn't quite cut it and probably worse in an urban setting. So for folks who are in more of those settings I can definitely see the limited appeal and where they would have issues with it.


----------



## MelindaV (Apr 2, 2016)

3V Pilot said:


> I agree with the others who already answered but I'll chime in also.
> 
> I bought the FSD right up front because of possible hardware upgrades but also I wanted all of the functions the car is capable of, whenever they are released. Now that I've become so used to using autopilot I'll be very happy if FSD just started to read stop signs and street lights. That would be worth the price alone as far as I'm concerned.
> 
> ...


thanks for the reply/insight


----------



## Bokonon (Apr 13, 2017)

MelindaV said:


> I've taken this exit for work since 2009 (in this lane), since 2007 (in the right hand lane) and a failing patch in some degree or another has been there the entire time. This however, is the worse I can recall, so keep thinking any time they will be repairing it again. This is a pretty major route (enough for @Bokonon to know of it from the far side of the country  ) and would expect police & other emergency vehicles use it frequent enough that they would have complained.


Agreed, that hole is pretty terrible, even for that interchange. Which I will forever remember as the place where my high school soccer team's van stalled out on the way back from practice, just in time for rush hour.


----------



## bulls96 (Aug 16, 2018)

Question for you guys.. 

On my 9th day of trial, have conflicted feelings.. 

With all your comments, do you think it's worth the $5500 add on?


----------



## RichEV (Sep 21, 2017)

This car cost us almost twice as much as any of our prior cars. Since we were spending that much the EAP was a no-brainer. I would not have wanted to pay $5000 less for the car without autopilot. Now that I have it I'm SURE I would not want to do without TACC & and other self-driving features.

Only a couple more weeks before we get to drive her to Tucson for the winter! (Or maybe I should say; before she gets to drive us to Tucson.)

And, if by some chance I get "Drive by Nav" in V9 before the trip that would be fantastic.


----------



## xnappo (Jun 3, 2017)

I absolutely love TACC. For my commute, full auto pilot doesn't really work, but TACC is great (surface streets, mucho stop and go).


----------



## Kevin W. (Jul 6, 2018)

Wow, that is a very well written original post and I agree with it 100%. I have about 6000 miles on my M3 and 5000 of those (at least) have been in auto-pilot.

One other perspective: I drove I-40 in NC Sunday in very stormy conditions for 3 hours. Rain, splashes from other cars, a military convoy taking up the right lane for miles, etc. I felt SO much better having an "assistant" keeping watch on cars in front of me. It could definitely see better than I could see. While I slowed a bit compared to a sunny day, having confidence in the autopilot/TACC made it much easier for me and less stressful driving in the lousy conditions. It was the first big storm I've driven in with my M3 and it helped a ton.

That said, I did notice the battery limit went WAY down. It's my normal drive, about 3.5 hours and I never have to stop to charge. In this case, I did, as it said I wouldn't make it home without a stop at the SC. I guess the car was using MUCH more power to drive in the rain and keep watch on the surroundings. Luckily, SC's were free due to the hurricane...so thanks, Elon. ;-)

Can't wait to see V9. I will continue to evangelize autopilot. It is awesome.


----------



## 3V Pilot (Sep 15, 2017)

bulls96 said:


> Question for you guys..
> 
> On my 9th day of trial, have conflicted feelings..
> 
> With all your comments, do you think it's worth the $5500 add on?


I know it took me longer than 9 days to fully appreciate and learn how and when to get the most out of the system. That being said "to each his own", you will really have to decide if the system is something that you will use. I personally feel it makes all driving much safer and love the fact that the car is watching out for me. On my regular commute in this morning I realized that even something as simple as putting on a pair of sunglasses is much safer with the car doing the heavy lifting. That may sound silly but even a simple, split second distraction like that has caused many a wreck.



Kevin W. said:


> Wow, that is a very well written original post and I agree with it 100%. I have about 6000 miles on my M3 and 5000 of those (at least) have been in auto-pilot.
> 
> One other perspective: I drove I-40 in NC Sunday in very stormy conditions for 3 hours. Rain, splashes from other cars, a military convoy taking up the right lane for miles, etc. I felt SO much better having an "assistant" keeping watch on cars in front of me. It could definitely see better than I could see. While I slowed a bit compared to a sunny day, having confidence in the autopilot/TACC made it much easier for me and less stressful driving in the lousy conditions. It was the first big storm I've driven in with my M3 and it helped a ton.
> 
> ...


Thank you and I'm glad to hear Autopilot helped to keep you safe on that drive. I've used it in a few heavy downpours and my only thought was "I hope I never have to drive in these conditions again without Autopilot!".

I'm sure in addition to rain you were most likely fighting heavy winds on that trip as well. The combination will certainly drain the battery quicker. These are the most efficient cars ever built so you will notice the effects of wind/rain resistance more than you would in any ICE car.

(Oh, and for those of you keeping score, I know the Hyundai Ionic shows a slightly better MPG rating but then again it can't do 310 miles so that's more of an apples to oranges comparison. I still stand by my statement that the Model 3 is the most efficient car ever made.)


----------



## SoFlaModel3 (Apr 15, 2017)

bulls96 said:


> Question for you guys..
> 
> On my 9th day of trial, have conflicted feelings..
> 
> With all your comments, do you think it's worth the $5500 add on?


The answer is -no one can answer but you.

It's all based on your situation. For instance if you have long daily highway commutes or take frequent road trips it's worth every penny.

If you don't, it's an expensive option for sure.

Mine was off for 3 days after a failed update knocked out the sensors and I realized just how amazing it was when it was gone


----------



## Stream3 (Dec 9, 2017)

I'm in my 10th day of the trial. It's brilliant. Addictive. Intoxicating.... but... I'm not going to bite. At least not right now. 

Why? 

Because I want to drive it. I want my hands on that silky smooth wheel. I want to feel it, sense it's moves, it's speed and dexterity. I want the adrenaline of high speed in control balls to the wall driving. I want to blast off and feel it. I want to weave my way though traffic and pass Mercs, Porsches, Jags, Vettes - all of them. And smile. A nice smile..not snarky. 

I remember how I felt 45 years ago when I got my first car, a 1968 MGC-GT - yes a GC with the great Austin Healy 3000 six that MG engineers cranked to 150hp. Consider the MGB was a mere 95hp. That was magic, real unadulterated sizzle- especially at sixteen. Along the way, twenty five more cars, some great and some pedestrian made their way into my life. I love cars. I love the way they sound, look, move, and make you feel. 

Now I own a 3. None of the cars I've owned, nor any other car I've ever driven comes close to this car. It makes me feel uniquely happy just knowing I own it and can drive it. It's an awesome, awesome achievement, and it's the future. EAP is worth every penny and more. Someday I'm going to buy in...

But for now, I just want to drive it like I stole it.


----------



## JWardell (May 9, 2016)

PNWmisty said:


> Where it really pays for itself is on busy urban freeways and arterials with fast-moving, chaotic traffic. And I agree, it really does free up my mind to focus on the things that really matter. I find myself looking further ahead and also in my mirrors more when I have Autopilot to manage the speed and lane position. And it's super relaxing to use in slow-moving stop-n-go. In that kind of traffic, without Autopilot, I sometimes feel stressed and impatient. It's tedious and mindless to continually creep forward only to stop again and again or creep along at 5-15 mph for miles. With Autopilot engaged I feel like a load has been removed from my shoulders. I allow my mind to wander more while, of course, still watching what's going on around me. It's almost enough to make me want to go find a traffic jam to insert myself in.


I'm quoting this because it's scary how much I agree. I actually get a big smile when coming up on traffic! What's wrong with me? "Haha! <double click> Suck it, traffic!"
And you know I totally try to conspicuously grab my water bottle and unscrew the cap with both hands whenever someone passes... 

I love driving, and when presented with light to medium traffic I will naturally attempt to constantly gamble and predict the best lane to get me past a few cars, and change lanes, and repeat, and repeat, because I MUST get there faster than the average! Any idea how tiring this is? But now instead I can just find the lane moving the smoothest and let the car handle the details. It's great, and potentially life-extending on the reduced stress alone.

Then there's the open road, which I don't get much around here, but on trips it's great not to allow me to turn my attention to other things, but to pay attention to more things. Instead on focusing on adapting to every minute movement of the car in front of me and the precise curvature of my lane, I can look further ahead, see potential issues sooner, take note of more cars around me in all directions, and maybe notice a bit more of the scenery too.


----------



## SoFlaModel3 (Apr 15, 2017)

Stream3 said:


> I'm in my 10th day of the trial. It's brilliant. Addictive. Intoxicating.... but... I'm not going to bite. At least not right now.
> 
> Why?
> 
> ...


Drive it like you stole doesn't work in highway congestion.  When it's time to drive, I drive - when it's time for stressful traffic, I double click as @JWardell said. Win-win!


----------



## RichEV (Sep 21, 2017)

JWardell said:


> I actually get a big smile when coming up on traffic! What's wrong with me? "Haha! <double click> Suck it, traffic!"
> ... But now instead I can just find the lane moving the smoothest and let the car handle the details. It's great, and potentially life-extending on the reduced stress alone.


exactly!


----------



## @gravityrydr (Apr 12, 2016)

bulls96 said:


> Question for you guys..
> 
> On my 9th day of trial, have conflicted feelings..
> 
> With all your comments, do you think it's worth the $5500 add on?


I would say it is absolutely worth it. I drive about 2000 mi/mo with about 70- 80% Autopilot. My commute is just the worst. 1 hour each way with stretches of fast moving aggressive drivers then grinding 0-10 mph sections and then construction, always construction. Autopilot shines in the two areas that driving is the least fun. Stop and go and long boring drives.


----------



## NightStorm (Aug 19, 2018)

This is a great discussion, thanks 3V Pilot for a great first post.

For my bit I like TACC and find Autopilot interesting but not compelling enough to spend $5500 for it. I'd buy TACC but not for $5k+, so am disappointed it is an all-or-nothing thing.

Furthermore (agreeing with Stream3) I like doing the driving. I find the swaying that Autopilot does as it hunts for dead center disconcerting. In addition it seems to do that thing to my head that too long an engagement in something like a video game does, that odd feeling where it changes my perspective as though I need to be shooting phasers at on-coming traffic or something (hard to describe). For me it is most pronounced when I disengage to take an exit and then find myself under-reacting because I expect the car to do the reacting for me.

Dunno if that makes any sense or not, but there it is.


----------



## GDN (Oct 30, 2017)

LOVE EAP after getting to put 300 or so miles on it in a couple of drives. This car is fun to drive and take over full control, but love EAP so far. One really big lesson I learned last week though is that it takes some good road stripes and properly striped exits to make it work well too. Until they get the exits properly mapped and the car knows it should not veer right at an exit the stripes make a huge difference. TX does NOT properly mark exits - it's an open lane, no stripes/broken lines to show the continued right hand side marker, OK does. I was getting a bit frustrated at it for a while, then when I got in to OK and realized how well it handles the road and doesn't try to exit where it shouldn't because the proper striping is there at an exit lane.


----------



## Rick Steinwand (May 19, 2018)

JWardell said:


> And you know I totally try to conspicuously grab my water bottle and unscrew the cap with both hands whenever someone passes...


I've been doing that most of my adult life. When you have an hour commute or bi-monthly 240 mile (one-way) trip, you quickly learn to drive with your knee.


----------



## francoisp (Sep 28, 2018)

I took possession on my Model 3 about 2 weeks ago and I've been using/testing its Autopilot feature and I must say that I am underwhelmed by its robustness. When it works, it's nice however I find that I can't trust it that much. Maybe V9 will work better.

I found that on 2-lane highways in a rural area, my car will at times suddenly slowdown for a second or 2. It seems that the incoming traffic on a narrow road confuses it.

Incoming traffic taking a left turn across my lane (as far as 200-300 feet away), often triggers an abrupt slowdown regardless of how many "cars" I set the cruise-control following-distance for. I don't feel comfortable using less that 3 "cars" following-distance.

I had a situation on a 2-lane rural highway where my car pulled hard toward the incoming traffic while crossing an intersection. Maybe the car would not have crossed the dividing lines but I did not give it the chance.

Different subject, I find that the speed limits in my area are often incorrect which is an issue when turning on the cruise control because the car automatically sets its speed based on what it thinks the speed limit is. Is there a way to disable this feature and always use the current speed when activating the cruise-control?


----------



## GDN (Oct 30, 2017)

Francois Parent said:


> I took possession on my Model 3 about 2 weeks ago and I've been using/testing its Autopilot feature and I must say that I am underwhelmed by its robustness. When it works, it's nice however I find that I can't trust it that much. Maybe V9 will work better.
> 
> I found that on 2-lane highways in a rural area, my car will at times suddenly slowdown for a second or 2. It seems that the incoming traffic on a narrow road confuses it.
> 
> ...


Please read up on the product. You missed the first few lines. EAP is intended for use on multi lane divided highways, not city or non-divided roads. You're playing with fire and it isn't the fault of EAP. We don't want to read about you in the paper.


----------



## 3V Pilot (Sep 15, 2017)

Francois Parent said:


> I took possession on my Model 3 about 2 weeks ago and I've been using/testing its Autopilot feature and I must say that I am underwhelmed by its robustness. When it works, it's nice however I find that I can't trust it that much. Maybe V9 will work better.
> 
> I found that on 2-lane highways in a rural area, my car will at times suddenly slowdown for a second or 2. It seems that the incoming traffic on a narrow road confuses it.
> 
> ...


No way to adjust the speed at this point but who knows what they might do in a future update. Also I agree with what @GDN posted above, the system is designed for divided highways, any other use and it's not to be "trusted". That said I use it all the time and if it brakes when I don't want it to I apply some pressure to the "go" pedal and problem solved. If a car is turning in front of me I already have my foot applying some pressure and no braking takes place. If the wheel starts to turn when I don't want it, I don't let it. Basically in the situations you are describing "you" need to be still driving the car but you can allow autopilot's watchful eye to help. I don't expect perfection and have learned when and where I need to be more vigilant. For me it's the perfect solution but for some I know it's more of a trust issue when the car is doing something they don't want or expect.


----------



## SoFlaModel3 (Apr 15, 2017)

Francois Parent said:


> Different subject, I find that the speed limits in my area are often incorrect which is an issue when turning on the cruise control because the car automatically sets its speed based on what it thinks the speed limit is. Is there a way to disable this feature and always use the current speed when activating the cruise-control?


If you're above the speed limit and above the relative speed limit setting you have in the car, then autopilot pilot kicks in at current speed.

So for instance, say the speed limit is 55 MPH, you have the autopilot relative speed set for +10 MPH, then as long as you are at or above 65 MPH you will engage autopilot at current speed.


----------



## 3V Pilot (Sep 15, 2017)

SoFlaModel3 said:


> If you're above the speed limit and above the relative speed limit setting you have in the car, then autopilot pilot kicks in at current speed.
> 
> So for instance, say the speed limit is 55 MPH, you have the autopilot relative speed set for +10 MPH, then as long as you are at or above 65 MPH you will engage autopilot at current speed.


I think he was asking about engaging at a lower limit than what is posted. After all, not everyone is a Speed Demon like you and I...


----------



## SoFlaModel3 (Apr 15, 2017)

3V Pilot said:


> I think he was asking about engaging at a lower limit than what is posted. After all, not everyone is a Speed Demon like you and I...


Whoops


----------



## francoisp (Sep 28, 2018)

Thank you all for the feedback. All comments duly noted. I saw many youtube videos of model 3 drivers reporting Autopilot capabilities on divided and well marked rural roads that I thought it was safe to use EAP in those conditions.


----------



## garsh (Apr 4, 2016)

Francois Parent said:


> I saw many youtube videos of model 3 drivers reporting Autopilot capabilities on divided and well marked rural roads that I thought it was safe to use EAP in those conditions.


Tesla's disclaimer shown on the screen when you try to first activate autopilot mentions that it should only be used on divided highways. But we all know that nobody reads those. And other than that, I can't find that information anywhere else on their website. It's unfortunate, and every now and then it results in somebody being involved in an accident because they didn't realize all of Autopilot's current limitations.

Thankfully, you came here, and now you know.


----------



## GDN (Oct 30, 2017)

Reading through the latest owners manual - or at least the one Google found, they don't make it quite as clear as I think they used to. However, from this version page 61:

Traffic-Aware Cruise Control is primarily
intended for driving on dry, straight roads,
such as highways and freeways. It should not
be used on city streets.
 Warning: Do not use Traffic-Aware Cruise
Control on city streets or on roads where
traffic conditions are constantly changing
Warning: Do not use Traffic-Aware Cruise
Control on winding roads with sharp
curves, on icy or slippery road surfaces, or
when weather conditions (such as heavy
rain, snow, fog, etc.) make it inappropriate
to drive at a consistent speed. Traffic-
Aware Cruise Control does not adapt
driving speed based on road and driving
conditions.
While maybe this should be called out and maybe be up on page 1, there are some warnings. Everyone will interpret these as they wish and I'm not berating the OP, but anytime you find yourself using EAP and you don't feel its properly handing the car, then it's time for the ultimate computer to take over and drive the car manually.


----------



## PNWmisty (Aug 19, 2017)

3V Pilot said:


> I think he was asking about engaging at a lower limit than what is posted. After all, not everyone is a Speed Demon like you and I...





SoFlaModel3 said:


> So for instance, say the speed limit is 55 MPH, you have the autopilot relative speed set for +10 MPH, then as long as you are at or above 65 MPH you will engage autopilot at current speed.


I haven't tried this but from what SoFlaModel3 wrote, couldn't Francois just set the TACC to Relative Speed at -20 mph (or whatever the lowest relative limit is) and then as long as he was going faster than that, it would set at his current speed as he wants?


----------



## 3V Pilot (Sep 15, 2017)

PNWmisty said:


> I haven't tried this but from what SoFlaModel3 wrote, couldn't Francois just set the TACC to Relative Speed at -20 mph (or whatever the lowest relative limit is) and then as long as he was going faster than that, it would set at his current speed as he wants?


The relative speed setting only works for above the speed limit, you can't adjust it for negative numbers. It's also not a solution to use the absolute setting because then you are limited to that number. Telsa really should have a way to select the set speed before engaing the system. I'm sure we are only one more software update away from perfection, well at some point at least.......


----------



## Quazmann (Aug 28, 2018)

NightStorm said:


> This is a great discussion, thanks 3V Pilot for a great first post.
> 
> For my bit I like TACC and find Autopilot interesting but not compelling enough to spend $5500 for it. I'd buy TACC but not for $5k+, so am disappointed it is an all-or-nothing thing.
> 
> ...


I would like to see TAAC available as a standard option. If not at least make it available for purchase as a separate option from Auto Pilot. $5500 for A/P I cannot justify, but a small charge to activate TACC would be great! Anyone else feeling the same way?


----------



## 3V Pilot (Sep 15, 2017)

Quazmann said:


> I would like to see TAAC available as a standard option. If not at least make it available for purchase as a separate option from Auto Pilot. $5500 for A/P I cannot justify, but a small charge to activate TACC would be great! Anyone else feeling the same way?


Yes, lots of people have made the same comment and I'm sure Tesla could increase the bottom line if they just offered TACC. I think their main reason for not selling it as a stand alone is because they want everyone to have the full Enhanced Autopilot package and all the benefits it offers. Not to nit-pick but I can save you $500 off the cost (It's $5k even)...lol.


----------



## francoisp (Sep 28, 2018)

PNWmisty said:


> I haven't tried this but from what SoFlaModel3 wrote, couldn't Francois just set the TACC to Relative Speed at -20 mph (or whatever the lowest relative limit is) and then as long as he was going faster than that, it would set at his current speed as he wants?


I thought this was a good suggestion but unfortunately the car will not allow a negative offset.


----------

